Tim Duncan > Kobe Bryant "Never missed the playoffs"

[k0kakw0rld]

Kobe top 6? If he is then Timmy is top 5.\
1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Bill
5.Shaq
6.Bird
7.Magic
8.Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

ahahahahahaha :roll: :lol :oldlol:

[arifgokcen]

Where is Shaq

[Odinn]

That thread was just a stan-thing. There is no point of starting another awful thread like that one. You do not have to prove anything about these things if you are not a insecure one.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is such a weird reaction thread.

I mean, I would not argue Duncan was better than Bryant in the playoffs because of production, but because he "never missed the playoffs" ? Totally setting yourself up for someone to say Carmelo Anthony > for the same reason. And if we're counting injuries, Duncan didn't play in the 2000 playoffs due to his injury.

O'Neal not in the Top 10 and Duncan and Bryant ranked 7-8 spot....what's so funny again ?

[inclinerator]

big o is not better than shaq

[OldSkoolball#52]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

[grilo_bruno]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

:biggums:
:facepalm

[Orlando Magic]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

Dropping some ****ing knowledge up in this bitch.

Too bad you'll get labeled as a troll.

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, etc... except he's had longevity and luck.

[ralph_i_el]

Dropping some ****ing knowledge up in this bitch.

Too bad you'll get labeled as a troll.

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, etc... except he's had longevity and luck.

everyone believes this except casuals and lakers stans ( a combined 90% of the NBA's viewership)

If you think this is trolling you're part of the 90%

[chazzy]

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony
Saying Kobe is basically the same as Carter and Melo is like saying Jordan is basically the same as Kobe

[Orlando Magic]

Saying Kobe is basically the same as Carter and Melo is like saying Jordan is basically the same as Kobe

No, no it's not. But they are extremely similar players... Michael was just superior at literally every aspect of the game. Every single one.

[chazzy]

No, no it's not. But they are extremely similar players... Michael was just superior at literally every aspect of the game. Every single one.
Kobe is a better defender, playmaker, and more efficient than most/all of those guys you listed. Not to mention far greater playoff performer. How are they exactly the same?

[poido123]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

I do see your point, but Kobe was a better player than McHale, Stockton, Kidd, Rodman. He deserves to be ranked higher than them as much as I hate to say it.

[chosen_wun]

If Kobe would have went to the Hornets like he was supposed to ... my oh my ..

Thats why it annoys me that he bitches about playing with MDE, he wanted to be in LA and got a top 10 legacy off of it. He could have been another AI or Melo.

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe is a better defender, playmaker, and more efficient than most/all of those guys you listed. Not to mention far greater playoff performer. How are they exactly the same?

VC is still a better defender than Kobe NOW. Tmac was just as good as Kobe before the knees went. Kobe has a lower AST% than AI and Tmac for their primes and careers so I wouldn't say he was a better defender.

Kobe just got lucky with franchises, injuries, and teammates. You really can't deny that playing in LA gave him a huge advantage in terms of supporting casts.

as for Timmy D vs. Kobe....it's no contest. Anyone who understands BBall would take Duncan over Kobe in a heartbeat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dropping some ****ing knowledge up in this bitch.

Too bad you'll get labeled as a troll.

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, etc... except he's had longevity and luck.

Wow, you really are an idiot. :oldlol:

[FiveRings]

Never missed the Playoffs? Who did Kobe have around him and who did Duncan have around him?

How can you even compare Melo to Kobe? What has Kobe ever achieved? Scoring more points in a game than any perimiter player ever and going to seven more Finals than Melo? That's pretty impressive but not quite as impressive as merely making the Playoffs.

[Human Error]

Fans with knowledge know Duncan is a much better basketball player than Kobe.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe =/= peak TMac? Alright. I can see that.

Those other guys though? Nah. C'mon now. Even suggesting that is dumb / borderline trolling (and I'm far from a Kobe fan).

[LLK21]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.
http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r764/PhotographerPeterParker/33717577_zps3fcf7ced.jpg (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/PhotographerPeterParker/media/33717577_zps3fcf7ced.jpg.html)

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe =/= peak TMac? Alright. I can see that.

Those other guys though? Nah. C'mon now. Even suggesting that is dumb / borderline trolling (and I'm far from a Kobe fan).

Nah, your part of the 90% of casuals and lakers stans.

I kid.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

The NBA forum is a sad, sad place.

[The-Legend-24]

Smh..

[Human Error]

If Kobe would have went to the Hornets like he was supposed to ... my oh my ..

Thats why it annoys me that he bitches about playing with MDE, he wanted to be in LA and got a top 10 legacy off of it. He could have been another AI or Melo.
Very true. The contending Lakers immediately got dropped out of the playoffs after they traded away Shaq, while the barely playoff team Heat advanced to ECF right away(and won the title next year). And Shaq was already past his prime. Kobe is nothing more than a glorified Iverson.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nah, your part of the 90% of casuals and lakers stans.

I kid.

You already know, legends. All I need now are my purp and gold locs. :cheers:

What do ya'll think, tho? Am I the ONLY one who thinks Mac and Bean, at their best, are a different class of players? :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

So here's my question, since in another thread... I wanted to know where Olajuwon truly ranks since he's regarded as "criminally" or "vastly" underrated:

Where does Bryant rank if he's this overrated and is nothing more than an Iverson/McGrady/Carter, etc... based on impact and he cannot compare whatsoever to the Duncan's/Mchale's/Kidd's/"insert player here"... got a definite or range (10-20) number ? Anybody ?

[Legends66NBA7]

You already know, legends. All I need now are my purp and gold locs. :cheers:

What do ya'll think, tho? Am I the ONLY one who thinks Mac and Bean, at their best, are a different class of players? :confusedshrug:

I do think they are on the same level in terms of skill/impact at their very best. McGrady is a better passer and 3 point threat, while Bryant is more skilled in the post and better/consistent defender. Everything else is more or less canceling out (Bryant might have more of a gear for scoring, though).

So, at their best they aren't too far apart, at all. I don't know what class to give them, to be honest with you. Wade would be in that same class too.

[Heavincent]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

[red1]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.
There is a lot of truth to this post but at the same time it needs to be said that kobe has something seperates him from all of the other volume scorers like AI and melo and that would be his drive to be the best. There is no doubt that kobe put a ton of work into his game, he is skilled at everything and one only needs to do look at how long he has been all all-nba player compared to all of the other volume scorers. Not only that, kobe was also a lockdown perimeter defender and very well-rounded player. With that in mind, kobe is solidly top 10 since at the end of the day we are comparing careers in these top 10 rankings and he has built a very impressive resume after all.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I do think they are on the same level in terms of skill/impact at their very best. McGrady is a better passer and 3 point threat, while Bryant is more skilled in the post and better/consistent defender. Everything else is more or less canceling out (Bryant might have more of a gear for scoring, though).

So, at their best they aren't too far apart, at all. I don't know what class to give them, to be honest with you. Wade would be in that same class too.

For sure. What I mean is, peak TMac and peak Kobe are ahead of the pack (Carter, AI, Melo). Maybe that's just me, I don't know...

[Mrs I'm so Rad]

The NBA forum is a sad, sad place.

I agree baby, they don't know how good Kobe really is.

[TonyMontana]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

Great post. There really is no NBA player that was as lucky as Kobe to have a management that produced the best cast around him for as many years as they did. From 98-04, and then 08-11 Kobe had the best team around him in the entire league. That's 11 years for the stans that cant do math.

Does anyone doubt LA still wins rings with a not as hyped guard, but still HOF caliber guy like Ray Allen if you put him with Shaq and then Odom/Gasol and give him the GOAT coach in Phil Jackson for all of it?

Kobe has no business in the top ten. He is basically a Jordan clone, but worse at every single aspect of the game. Maybe three point shooting, but thats because of the evolution of the game, there wasn't as great an emphasis on that in Jordans day.

Dude has never won a single playoff series in his career where the other team is favored. Kobe only wins when his cast is better than the other cast. If your a truly great player you should have at least one underdog victory in over 15 years of your career. Kobe is the only all-time great not to do this.

[Legends66NBA7]

For sure. What I mean is, peak TMac and peak Kobe are ahead of the pack (Carter, AI, Melo). Maybe that's just me, I don't know...

I would say some would put Iverson with them too because of what his Sixers did in 01, but yeah I agree with you that that both of them would be at the Top 2 of the pack.

By the way, career wise, I actually think Melo will end up like Carter, if this Knicks thing doesn't work out. What do you think ?

[Heavincent]

If Kobe would have went to the Hornets like he was supposed to ... my oh my ..

Thats why it annoys me that he bitches about playing with MDE, he wanted to be in LA and got a top 10 legacy off of it. He could have been another AI or Melo.

Here's the thing though: Kobe was flat out better than Melo and AI. That's not even up for debate. I'd take old, 2011 Kobe playing on one knee over any version of Melo and I wouldn't even think twice.

Peak T-Mac vs peak Kobe is a lot closer, but Kobe always had a better mindset toward the game. If you were going into a big playoff series and you got to choose between Kobe and T-Mac, I think it's safe to say most of us would take Kobe. At least T-Mac was an elite, top 5 player at one time though. I don't think you could say that about Melo.

[red1]

Here's the thing though: Kobe was flat out better than Melo and AI. That's not even up for debate. I'd take old, 2011 Kobe playing on one knee over any version of Melo and I wouldn't even think twice.

Peak T-Mac vs peak Kobe is a lot closer, but Kobe always had a better mindset toward the game. If you were going into a big playoff series and you got to choose between Kobe and T-Mac, I think it's safe to say most of us would take Kobe. At least T-Mac was an elite, top 5 player at one time though. I don't think you could say that about Melo.
this is true. tmac doesnt get his due props however it is obvious to anyone watching that kobe is a tier above melo

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would say some would put Iverson with them too because of what his Sixers did in 01, but yeah I agree with you that that both of them would be at the Top 2 of the pack.

By the way, career wise, I actually think Melo will end up like Carter, if this Knicks thing doesn't work out. What do you think ?

He'll be more renowned because of NY's market, but really, there's nothing that separates them. Matter of fact, I would take Carter in his prime ('01-06) over Melo. The guy is just too inefficient and TOO one-dimensional.

[FiveRings]

For sure. What I mean is, peak TMac and peak Kobe are ahead of the pack (Carter, AI, Melo). Maybe that's just me, I don't know...
Personally I think it's a joke to put TMac over guys like AI and Jason Kidd, let alone compare TMac to Bryant. These guys made four Finals. Put TMac on those Nets in place of Kidd or on those Sixers and he most likely gets knocked out in the first round or second round at best. He couldn't get past the first round with freaking Yao. I mean yeah, TMac's playing style was pretty and entertaining to watch, but he just never had that winning mentality or heart like those other guys so I see no justification for ranking him higher.

[Legends66NBA7]

He'll be more renowned because of NY's market, but really, there's nothing that separates them. Matter of fact, I would take Carter in his prime ('01-06) over Melo. The guy is just too inefficient and TOO one-dimensional.

Yeah, I would take Carter over Melo too.


Personally I think it's a joke to put TMac over guys like AI and Jason Kidd, let alone compare TMac to Bryant. These guys made four Finals. Put TMac on those Nets in place of Kidd or on those Sixers and he most likely gets knocked out in the first round or second round at best. He couldn't get past the first round with freaking Yao. I mean yeah, TMac's playing style was pretty and entertaining to watch, but he just never had that winning mentality or heart like those other guys so I see no justification for ranking him higher.

If were talking about careers, then McGrady wouldn't be over the likes of Kidd and Iverson. He's definitely on the level or better than both of them at his peak. It's not about having a winning mentality, he clearly can perform in the playoffs regardless of his cast. I think his heart was questioned later on in his career when he wasn't getting much playing time.

[chosen_wun]

Here's the thing though: Kobe was flat out better than Melo and AI. That's not even up for debate. I'd take old, 2011 Kobe playing on one knee over any version of Melo and I wouldn't even think twice.

Peak T-Mac vs peak Kobe is a lot closer, but Kobe always had a better mindset toward the game. If you were going into a big playoff series and you got to choose between Kobe and T-Mac, I think it's safe to say most of us would take Kobe. At least T-Mac was an elite, top 5 player at one time though. I don't think you could say that about Melo.
Yeah, the Melo comparison was hyperbole. He's definitely better, even a tier above AI.

But basically what I was alluding to is that he wouldnt be nearly as accomplished had he ended up in Charlotte instead of LA. He would have ended up being labeled with the chucker moniker and half the accolades he has now.

[TheBigVeto]

Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe.

[AintNoSunshine]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.


Thank you:applause:

[Doctor Rivers]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.


No thank you :facepalm

[longtime lurker]

Dropping some ****ing knowledge up in this bitch.

Too bad you'll get labeled as a troll.

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, etc... except he's had longevity and luck.

:roll: :roll: :roll: the NBA forum where completely idiotic ideas are birthed.

[Shih508]

Idiots nowaday think Melo is in same tier or a tier above AI? GTFO

AI is at lease top 50 greatest of all time, could be top 30

As for Melo..... he won't even crank top 100 when it's all said and done

[FiveRings]

Yeah, the Melo comparison was hyperbole. He's definitely better, even a tier above AI.

But basically what I was alluding to is that he wouldnt be nearly as accomplished had he ended up in Charlotte instead of LA. He would have ended up being labeled with the chucker moniker and half the accolades he has now.
Charlotte never wanted Kobe.

You could also make the argument that Shaq would have only won 2 rings in his entire career without Kobe. SA and SAC would have done Shaq in without Kobe there to step up big. And after SAC dropped off, you could argue that Kobe could have won on a shitload of teams. Dallas, Minnessota, Phoenix, Detroit, etc. Hell, Kobe already proved that he could make 3 straight Finals with Pau as his second option, so put Kobe on the Raptors back in the day with Bosh and decent role players and the Toronto Raptors would be making several Finals.

Would Shaq and Kobe have been as successful without playing with eachother? Not likely. But it's clear that Kobe didn't need Shaq. He proved that he didn't so I don't know why people still try to act like he needed Shaq or he'd have no rings at all if he wasn't drafted to LA.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe top 6? If he is then Timmy is top 5.\
1.MJ
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Bill
5.Shaq
6.Bird
7.Magic
8.Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

ahahahahahaha :roll: :lol :oldlol:


I would put Hakeem over both Kobe and Duncan and Kobe over Duncan unless Duncan gets another title...:rockon:

[Shih508]

You could also argue that Kobe would have 0-1 ring without Stern... so what's your point~

[chosen_wun]

Sorry @ Five Rings

It's not just about Shaq..

Kobe has had elite teams fielded around him for roughly his entire career, naturally playing for such a prestigious franchise. The most annoying part is when he finally had to face adversity and play a few seasons on subpar teams, he wanted out of town. He felt the world owed him, he went on Steven A's radio show and literally CRIED. A measely 2 fvcking years of not being on a contender.

Do you know how annoying this is to fans of Garnett, AI, Pierce etc. ?





Guys that played with average casts for all of their prime years ?

[AintNoSunshine]

Good luck trying to reason with Kobe stans who lives in Kobe's underpants.

Overall, Kobe's top 10 thanks to accolades he collected during his tenure as Shaq's sidekick.

Impact wise, he's really mediocre compared to other greats.

[Round Mound]

Duncan Won 4 Rings as The Man. Since This is The Measure, Then Duncan Was Better than Bryant. Not So, Duncan Was Better Because He Was as Good Passer, Much Better Rebounder and Shot Blocker and Still a Good Scorer. Bryant Was a Better Shot and Gun Player Thats All.

[longtime lurker]

Sorry @ Five Rings

It's not just about Shaq..

Kobe has had elite teams fielded around him for roughly his entire career, naturally playing for such a prestigious franchise. The most annoying part is when he finally had to face adversity and play a few seasons on subpar teams, he wanted out of town. He felt the world owed him, he went on Steven A's radio show and literally CRIED. A measely 2 fvcking years of not being on a contender.

Do you know how annoying this is to fans of Garnett, AI, Pierce etc. ?

Guys that played with average casts for all of their prime years ?

Do you know how annoy

Do you know how annoying that is to

Hold up a minute. You need to stop rewriting history bro. The only reason that these were championship teams were BECAUSE of Kobe. And he was literally playing with garbage those two years. This was beyond just an average cast. And he called out management on their BS which was they were being cheap while making tons of money off Kobe playing his ass off every night. He could have easily just coasted and collected cheques. And maybe guys like AI and Garnett should have been more vocal about getting more help. I'll never criticize a player for trying to improve his team when the ultimate goal is championships. And Pierce was ready to ask for a trade because management was jerking the team around. Cry me a river for someone actually wanting to do more than just collect cheques.

[longtime lurker]

Duncan Won 4 Rings as The Man. Since This is The Measure, Then Duncan Was Better than Bryant. Not So, Duncan Was Better Because He Was as Good Passer, Much Better Rebounder and Shot Blocker and Still a Good Scorer. Bryant Was a Better Shot and Gun Player Thats All.

Well I'd hope so considering that he's a fvcking center!

[Rose'sACL]

Pop
phil

[Deuce Bigalow]

Good luck trying to reason with Kobe stans who lives in Kobe's underpants.

Overall, Kobe's top 10 thanks to accolades he collected during his tenure as Shaq's sidekick.

Impact wise, he's really mediocre compared to other greats.
This doesn't make sense since he did not collect much accolades with Shaq. He won all of his MVPs and FMVPs after Shaq and made most of his All-NBA First teams without Shaq too. Even those rings with Shaq, according to you "guys", he was carried to. So wouldn't him being in the top 10 mostly be because of his career post-Shaq than with Shaq?

[hawke812]

Dropping some ****ing knowledge up in this bitch.

Too bad you'll get labeled as a troll.

He's the exact same player as Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony, etc... except he's had longevity and luck.

And the most overrated player of all time Michael Jordan. No Pippen, no rings.

Pippen = Rings

Jordan = 1W-9L Playoff record

[The-Legend-24]

And the most overrated player of all time Michael Jordan. No Pippen, no rings.

Pippen = Rings

Jordan = 1W-9L Playoff record
:applause: Jordan should be shining the nigguh shoes, without him, dude is ringless.

[Round Mound]

Well I'd hope so considering that he's a fvcking center!

[B]He

[KOBE143]

5 >>> 3.5 :confusedshrug:

[longtime lurker]

And the most overrated player of all time Michael Jordan. No Pippen, no rings.

Pippen = Rings

Jordan = 1W-9L Playoff record

Wow you just one upped the stupidity factor in this thread.

[FiveRings]

Sorry @ Five Rings

It's not just about Shaq..

Kobe has had elite teams fielded around him for roughly his entire career, naturally playing for such a prestigious franchise. The most annoying part is when he finally had to face adversity and play a few seasons on subpar teams, he wanted out of town. He felt the world owed him, he went on Steven A's radio show and literally CRIED. A measely 2 fvcking years of not being on a contender.

Do you know how annoying this is to fans of Garnett, AI, Pierce etc. ?





Guys that played with average casts for all of their prime years ?
I don't care if Kobe threatened the team to get better or he'd leave. His insistence that they get better payed off and the team got better. I don't blame Lebron for leaving Cleveland either. I thought he should have left Cleveland.

And yeah, Kobe has had elite teams around him for most of his career, but hasn't Duncan as well? He had Robinson and then Parker and Manu plus a top 5 all time coach. Shaq had Penny, then Kobe, then Wade, then prime Nash and Stat, then Lebron.

You almost always need star teammates to win. Why do Kobe's titles get diminished but not Shaqs since he won with Kobe and Wade, or Magic and Kareem's titles since they played together, or Bird's titles since he had McHale and Parish? There are anomolies like the 11 Mavs, 04 Pistons, and Hakeems Rockets that won without multiple stars on the team, but you usually need an elite team to win the big one.

[Round Mound]

5 >>> 3.5 :confusedshrug:

Kobe has 3 as a Complementary Player to Shaq so Its 4 > 2

But Only Idiots Say a Better Player is Better Cause of Rings Cause Thats a Team Achievement.

Broken Down Stats Clearly Show Who is the More Efficient and Dominant Player than the Other. And This, While Knowing the Level of Teamates (Offensively and Defensively) That Player Had With Him.

[The-Legend-24]

Dude got so lucky Kobe got injured, or else Kobe would've shitted on him and the spurs like he always does.

[KOBE143]

Kobe has 3 as a Complementary Player to Shaq so Its 4 > 2

But Only Idiots Say a Better Player is Better Cause of Rings Cause Thats a Team Achievement.

Broken Down Stats Clearly Show Who is the More Efficient and Dominant Player than the Other.
5 >>> 0

umad

[Round Mound]

5 >>> 0

umad

12 Year Old Talking About Barkley:facepalm :rolleyes: . You Never Even Saw Him Play!

[Nashty]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

+1



Hold up a minute. You need to stop rewriting history bro. The only reason that these were championship teams were BECAUSE of Kobe. And he was literally playing with garbage those two years. This was beyond just an average cast. And he called out management on their BS which was they were being cheap while making tons of money off Kobe playing his ass off every night. He could have easily just coasted and collected cheques. And maybe guys like AI and Garnett should have been more vocal about getting more help. I'll never criticize a player for trying to improve his team when the ultimate goal is championships. And Pierce was ready to ask for a trade because management was jerking the team around. Cry me a river for someone actually wanting to do more than just collect cheques.


:roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

He got carried to 5 rings, Lakers would probably have even more rings without him.

[rmt]

Pop

LOL. Before their 1st championship season, Pop had an NBA record of 73-73. He had to grow and develop into the coach he is today. Kobe, OTOH, got Phil when he had already won 6 championships.

Duncan has more impact on the game than Kobe. Any GM whose aim it is to win a championship (not sell jerseys) will pick Duncan over Kobe to start a franchise.

[Rooster]

LOL. Before their 1st championship season, Pop had an NBA record of 73-73. He had to grow and develop into the coach he is today. Kobe, OTOH, got Phil when he had already won 6 championships.

Duncan has more impact on the game than Kobe. Any GM whose aim it is to win a championship (not sell jerseys) will pick Duncan over Kobe to start a franchise.

That does not reflect their true record because the Admiral was out after six games and Sean Ellliot was out for almost half of it. Actually when you take that injury riddled season out, Spurs averaged 56 wins during regular season with Admiral but a lot of shortcomings when it matters. So Duncan did not come to a team where basically they have to built through him from the scratch and so did Popovich. Spurs were already a solid team and adding a great player like Duncan will definitely make a difference and it did. I am not fully sold on Popovich either but he is a good coach nonetheless .

[rmt]

That does not reflect their true record because the Admiral was out after six games and Sean Ellliot was out for almost half of it. Actually when you take that injury riddled season out, Spurs averaged 56 wins during regular season with Admiral but a lot of shortcomings when it matters. So Duncan did not come to a team where basically they have to built through him from the scratch and so did Popovich. Spurs were already a solid team and adding a great player like Duncan will definitely make a difference and it did. I am not fully sold on Popovich either but he is a good coach nonetheless .

The point is that Popovich had coached a total of 146 NBA games while Phil had already won 6 championships. With less than 2 seasons under his belt, Pop was very much a "rookie" coach - especially when compared to Phil Jackson.

Mr. Jabbar, using Pop as an excuse/reason, is way off there. Kobe's had the best of owners, team mates, coaches, team salary, cities to attract free agents while Duncan has had a stingy owner (trading away Scola's contract to get rid of Jackie Butler's), lesser team mates, a lesser coach, waaaay less team salary in a city that no free agent wants to go to. Take a look at the salary disparity - 2012-13 salaries: LAL $100.1million SAS $69.8m Can you imagine if Spurs had over $30million more to spend on salary?

[Magic 32]

+1



:roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

He got carried to 5 rings, Lakers would probably have even more rings without him.

We have destroyed these troll stats for ages.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3328528/hamster-wheel-o.gif

[rmt]

And yeah, Kobe has had elite teams around him for most of his career, but hasn't Duncan as well? He had Robinson and then Parker and Manu plus a top 5 all time coach. Shaq had Penny, then Kobe, then Wade, then prime Nash and Stat, then Lebron.

You almost always need star teammates to win. Why do Kobe's titles get diminished but not Shaqs since he won with Kobe and Wade, or Magic and Kareem's titles since they played together, or Bird's titles since he had McHale and Parish? There are anomolies like the 11 Mavs, 04 Pistons, and Hakeems Rockets that won without multiple stars on the team, but you usually need an elite team to win the big one.

Duncan did not have star team mates when he won in 03. Here are his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options: 2nd year Parker - 14.7 pts / 3.5 asst / 40%FG. 2nd year SJax - 12.8 pts / 2.7 asst / 41%FG. Rookie Manu - 9.4 pts / 2.9 asst / 38.6% FG. Duncan led the team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks during the 03 playoffs. And Pop was nowhere near a top 5 all-time coach then.

[sportjames23]

I agree baby, they don't know how good Kobe really is.


LOL, now we got Mrs. I'm so Rad up in here. :oldlol:

[FPJ]

Kobe = taller Monta Ellis. :oldlol:

If you dont believe so, ask Monta.

[sportjames23]

And the most overrated player of all time Michael Jordan. No Pippen, no rings.

Pippen = Rings

Jordan = 1W-9L Playoff record


This dumb muthafcuka here.

Early in MJ's career he was on an absolutely crap team. Going up against teams like the Celtics--y'know, one of the greatest teams of all time.

Tell me, what did Scottie do without MJ? I don't seem to recall him winning any more rings--even after he went to a STACKED team in Portland.

[Orlando Magic]

You already know, legends. All I need now are my purp and gold locs. :cheers:

What do ya'll think, tho? Am I the ONLY one who thinks Mac and Bean, at their best, are a different class of players? :confusedshrug:

They're better than the other guys I mentioned, but as individuals. They didn't really make their teams that much better.

They're the types of guys that everyone stands around and watches him play offense(read: ISO) and occasionally hits a teammate for a wide open jumper if the teammates are lucky. That's about the extent that they get guys involved on offense and how they effect a team offensively. The teams are better off with them than without, true, but none of them are true winners that can impact an entire team to a large extent because of their styles. BTW... Jordan is this same type of guy. He's just superior enough to them all in every aspect individually that it gets overlooked. There's a reason that the Bulls were still a 50+ team without him after he retired.


There is a lot of truth to this post but at the same time it needs to be said that kobe has something seperates him from all of the other volume scorers like AI and melo and that would be his drive to be the best. There is no doubt that kobe put a ton of work into his game, he is skilled at everything and one only needs to do look at how long he has been all all-nba player compared to all of the other volume scorers. Not only that, kobe was also a lockdown perimeter defender and very well-rounded player. With that in mind, kobe is solidly top 10 since at the end of the day we are comparing careers in these top 10 rankings and he has built a very impressive resume after all.

Everything you said is true. His drive and work ethic allowed him to have the longevity the other guys did not. But at their peaks he was not clearly better than them... he was in their same class. And I also agree he has built an extremely impressive resume. The vast majority of it was gifted to him, but it is what it is, nonetheless. In terms of accomplishments, he is top 10 all time or very close to it. In terms of actual on the court basketball impact, he's somewhere in the top 30(this comment will catch a lot of shit if anyone reads it but it doesn't make it any less true).


For sure. What I mean is, peak TMac and peak Kobe are ahead of the pack (Carter, AI, Melo). Maybe that's just me, I don't know...

Yes, but not leaps and bounds ahead... and neither Kobe nor TMac was capable of leading mediocre teams deep into the playoffs like some the truly all time greats have. This is why I put them in the same class as Iverson, Melo, Carter, etc... they're better players, and it's enough to be noticed... but let's not act like they're worlds apart, because they weren't.


Great post. There really is no NBA player that was as lucky as Kobe to have a management that produced the best cast around him for as many years as they did. From 98-04, and then 08-11 Kobe had the best team around him in the entire league. That's 11 years for the stans that cant do math.

Does anyone doubt LA still wins rings with a not as hyped guard, but still HOF caliber guy like Ray Allen if you put him with Shaq and then Odom/Gasol and give him the GOAT coach in Phil Jackson for all of it?

Kobe has no business in the top ten. He is basically a Jordan clone, but worse at every single aspect of the game. Maybe three point shooting, but thats because of the evolution of the game, there wasn't as great an emphasis on that in Jordans day.

Dude has never won a single playoff series in his career where the other team is favored. Kobe only wins when his cast is better than the other cast. If your a truly great player you should have at least one underdog victory in over 15 years of your career. Kobe is the only all-time great not to do this.

I see where you're going and I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I disagree with the Ray Allen sentiment. He wasn't good enough to replace Kobe on any of those teams. Some of them might have won titles, but it's highly improbable as many as Kobe.


Here's the thing though: Kobe was flat out better than Melo and AI. That's not even up for debate. I'd take old, 2011 Kobe playing on one knee over any version of Melo and I wouldn't even think twice.

Peak T-Mac vs peak Kobe is a lot closer, but Kobe always had a better mindset toward the game. If you were going into a big playoff series and you got to choose between Kobe and T-Mac, I think it's safe to say most of us would take Kobe. At least T-Mac was an elite, top 5 player at one time though. I don't think you could say that about Melo.

He was flat out better... but to act like they're not comparable in terms of team impact is ridiculous.


this is true. tmac doesnt get his due props however it is obvious to anyone watching that kobe is a tier above melo

True, as an individual. Not on a team.


Yeah, the Melo comparison was hyperbole. He's definitely better, even a tier above AI.

But basically what I was alluding to is that he wouldnt be nearly as accomplished had he ended up in Charlotte instead of LA. He would have ended up being labeled with the chucker moniker and half the accolades he has now.

Exactly this, 100%. 100%. 100%. I can't emphasize that enough. But at the end of the day, it's still a hypothetical, and only the pragmatists can see it for what it is... so it doesn't really matter.


Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe.

Correct.


Would Shaq and Kobe have been as successful without playing with eachother? Not likely. But it's clear that Kobe didn't need Shaq. He proved that he didn't so I don't know why people still try to act like he needed Shaq or he'd have no rings at all if he wasn't drafted to LA.

I want you to ask yourself an honest question. Do you think Kobe Bryant would have taken any of McGrady's teams to a title? Do you think Kobe Bryant would have taken any of Carter's teams to a title? Just something to think about. I think you are severely underrating the combination of Odom, Gasol & Bynum as a package. SEVERELY. Those three guys ****ing killed while all on the same team together.

You want a fact? Kobe has never won a title... nor does he have a Finals appearance nor does he have a Conference Finals appearance without the most dominant front court in the NBA during any given season. I really don't care to argue it. It's obvious to anyone with a set of eyes and the ability to objectively reason.


This doesn't make sense since he did not collect much accolades with Shaq. He won all of his MVPs and FMVPs after Shaq and made most of his All-NBA First teams without Shaq too. Even those rings with Shaq, according to you "guys", he was carried to. So wouldn't him being in the top 10 mostly be because of his career post-Shaq than with Shaq?

You can't give Finals MVP to a combination of Gasol, Odom & Bynum... so naturally Kobe is going to get them(although Gasol deserved one of those by himself).


And the most overrated player of all time Michael Jordan. No Pippen, no rings.

Pippen = Rings

Jordan = 1W-9L Playoff record

Jordan is not the most overrated. That would be Kobe. But Jordan is up there for sure.


And yeah, Kobe has had elite teams around him for most of his career, but hasn't Duncan as well? He had Robinson and then Parker and Manu plus a top 5 all time coach. Shaq had Penny, then Kobe, then Wade, then prime Nash and Stat, then Lebron.

You almost always need star teammates to win. Why do Kobe's titles get diminished but not Shaqs since he won with Kobe and Wade, or Magic and Kareem's titles since they played together, or Bird's titles since he had McHale and Parish? There are anomolies like the 11 Mavs, 04 Pistons, and Hakeems Rockets that won without multiple stars on the team, but you usually need an elite team to win the big one.

Everything you're saying is true. The key part you're missing is the fact that Kobe was not the driving force of any of those title teams... while the other first option players you listed were.


+1



:roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq years(not counting first two Kobe's seasons because he wasn't a starter)

With Kobe: 285-126 (.693)
Without Kobe: 33-16 (.673)

With Shaq: 292-110 (.726)
Without Shaq: 26-32 (.448)

Middle 3 years

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Gasol years

With Kobe: 308-147 (.677)
Without Kobe: 14-7 (.667)

With Gasol: 257-112 (.696)
Without Gasol: 35-26 (.574)

He got carried to 5 rings, Lakers would probably have even more rings without him.

Don't dig up statistical facts. We want to talk about objective awards here!

However, the Lakers would not have even more rings without him. That's completely disingenuous and you know it.

[DMAVS41]

The way Duncan has played this year...and really since he's declined...is a lot better than people give him credit for.

Duncan really had that one dip back in 11...and that was it. He is still producing insane numbers for someone his age and he's still easily one of the handful of best defenders in the league.

His team has now made the WCF two years in a row. You could definitely argue he's still the most valuable player on his team as well.

Over the last two years in the playoffs (again...two trips to the WCF) Duncan is averaging 17/9/3 and still playing elite defense. Parker is averaging 21/7/4 over the last two years in the playoffs. I would have no issue with someone saying Parker is the best player on the Spurs, but it's a very close call on to which player does more to help them win.

His longevity is actually better than Kobe's when you factor in his age and how he has been the best player on his team more years in his career than Kobe was...

[Nashty]

Don't dig up statistical facts. We want to talk about objective awards here!

However, the Lakers would not have even more rings without him. That's completely disingenuous and you know it.

Yes, they would, if they had any other All Star SG with less ego who wouldn't chuck as much, who would just give Shaq the ball and let him dominate and who wouldn't drive Shaq out of town to be "the man" they would easily won more than five.

[ReturnofJPR]

Tim Duncan is the most underrated player in NBA History.

After this season, he will have 5 rings and 5 NBA Finals MVP's.

A true champion with elite character.

Do you think Timmy Duncan would make a show called "The Decision?"

[Vienceslav]

4 finals appearances against 8.
In other words Kobe missed the Finals half the time he was in the playoffs.:lol
There's a hilarious part on the latest Bill Simmons podcast where he makes an excuse for this basically saying in a way 'yea they lost, but they should have won so let's pretend they did', if you thought Alphawolf or pauk[sorry pauk I included you just to provide balance] had an agenda wait till you hear this one.:rockon:

[Big#50]

That does not reflect their true record because the Admiral was out after six games and Sean Ellliot was out for almost half of it. Actually when you take that injury riddled season out, Spurs averaged 56 wins during regular season with Admiral but a lot of shortcomings when it matters. So Duncan did not come to a team where basically they have to built through him from the scratch and so did Popovich. Spurs were already a solid team and adding a great player like Duncan will definitely make a difference and it did. I am not fully sold on Popovich either but he is a good coach nonetheless .

Spurs were a good team because of Robinson. They pretty much sucked if it weren't for him. The thing is Robinson was never the same player once Duncan came to the league. He probably had two seasons of being a top 15 player next to Duncan. In POPS own words " I don't know anything about a system, I drafted Tim Duncan."
Spurs front office never surrounded him with talent. Talent developed around Duncan. And he had a major part of that. Not saying Manu and Parker are good because of him.

[dh144498]

Kobe is not objectively top 20 based on impact.

He is really is about the same player as Carmelo Anthony, except on the leagues most dominant franchise.

Prime Kidd, McHale, Stockton, Rodman are more impactful than Kobe Bryant at the overall game of team basketball. To even compare him to the likes of Duncan and Hakeem is just truly ludicrous. Since retard fan glorify "rings" as an individual achievement and volume point total as the pinnacle of a players impact, Kobe Bryant is a far more popular player and thus has more low IQ fans who are bias in favor of him when making rankings. Thats the only reason anyone suggests he is Top 10. Non Kobe Stans often feel pressure into sticking him somewhere because they know theyll face a hurricane of "rings" arguments and blowback if they dont, and they are ill equipped to articulate how overrated that measurement is, even if they actually know it to be true deep down.

:biggums:
is this logic?

[dh144498]

VC is still a better defender than Kobe NOW. Tmac was just as good as Kobe before the knees went. Kobe has a lower AST% than AI and Tmac for their primes and careers so I wouldn't say he was a better defender.

Kobe just got lucky with franchises, injuries, and teammates. You really can't deny that playing in LA gave him a huge advantage in terms of supporting casts.

as for Timmy D vs. Kobe....it's no contest. Anyone who understands BBall would take Duncan over Kobe in a heartbeat.

:biggums:

[Big#50]

This doesn't make sense since he did not collect much accolades with Shaq. He won all of his MVPs and FMVPs after Shaq and made most of his All-NBA First teams without Shaq too. Even those rings with Shaq, according to you "guys", he was carried to. So wouldn't him being in the top 10 mostly be because of his career post-Shaq than with Shaq?
Kobe is a great player. But he has proven he can't carry a team. He just doesn't have that type of impact. His track record proves this. Missing the playoffs with a pretty good team. Losing in the first round twice. Shooting a team out of a ring. The 08 finals. Game 7. Kobe shines with a great cast, he is a great player, but when he has to carry a team he just doesn't cut it.

[chazzy]

His longevity is actually better than Kobe's when you factor in his age and how he has been the best player on his team more years in his career than Kobe was...
Duncan's been really solid for a while, but when's the last time he's been elite? 07 or 08?

Kobe is a great player. But he has proven he can't carry a team. He just doesn't have that type of impact.
He can carry poor casts offensively. The 07 Lakers' 2nd and 3rd best offensive players were Odom and Walton, who missed 20+ games a piece.. and they still had the 7th best offense in the league. That was the year Phil gave him the green light to go off post all-star, when he averaged 37 a game and had the 50pt streak

[Jacks3]

Kobe went to three straight Finals and won back-to-back rings. Owned and outplayed Duncan and the Sperms in 2001, 2002, 2004, AND 2008.

Dunkedon couldn't even manage to make back-to-back Finals.

Kobe more rings than their entire franchise.

Was still a top 5 player in his 17th season while Duncan hasn't even been the best player on his own team since 2010. Hell, dude can out there and play like shit and still have his team win by 25 against a 57 win Grizz team, as we saw the other night. He's had multiple seasons where he looked like a freaking role-player and his team is still out there winning 60+ games. :oldlol:

I mean, do people realize how horribly inefficient Duncan has been this post-season? 50.5% TS. That's HORRIBLE. Monta level bad. And his team is STILL in the WCF. Who's the one being carried? :oldlol:


Kobe will revered, discussed, debated, loved for generations to come. He is the premier player of his era. Nobody gives about Duncan and the boring ass Sperms.

:oldlol:

[tpols]

Kobe went to three straight Finals and won back-to-back rings. Owned and outplayed Duncan and the Sperms in 2001, 2002, 2004, AND 2008.

Dunkedon couldn't even manage to make back-to-back Finals.

Kobe more rings than their entire franchise.

Was still a top 5 player in his 17th season while Duncan hasn't even been the best player on his own team since 2010. Hell, dude can out there and play like shit and still have his team win by 25 against a 57 win Grizz team, as we saw the other night. He's had multiple seasons where he looked like a freaking role-player and his team is still out there winning 60+ games. :oldlol:

I mean, do people realize how horribly inefficient Duncan has been this post-season? 50.5% TS. That's HORRIBLE. Monta level bad. And his team is STILL in the WCF. Who's the one being carried? :oldlol:


Kobe will revered, discussed, debated, loved for generations to come. He is the premier player of his era. Nobody gives about Duncan and the boring ass Sperms.

:oldlol:
Hes been off on offense.. didnt realize it was that bad though.

Kobe gets crucified for his 55%TS which is 1% less than Wade and only 2% less than MJ for their careers. Pretty amazing that their efficiencies are so close when one player is branded a 'chucker' qand the other two are classified as super efficient.:oldlol:

Melo and iverson are 51 and 49 % TS in the playoffs for example. Kobe is a lot closer to the 'efficient' stars than the chuckers, and thats even with him taking a lot of dumbass shots.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan's been really solid for a while, but when's the last time he's been elite? 07 or 08?

He can carry poor casts offensively. The 07 Lakers' 2nd and 3rd best offensive players were Odom and Walton, who missed 20+ games a piece.. and they still had the 7th best offense in the league. That was the year Phil gave him the green light to go off post all-star, when he averaged 37 a game and had the 50pt streak

What do you call elite? I think that is the question.

Is a 17/9/3 big man playing elite interior defense...elite?

Was Kobe elite in 11? 12?

I mean...I'm assuming playoff averages of 20/15/3 over 17 games while playing elite interior defense makes Duncan elite in 08.

After that I'm not sure about elite. But also...I'm not sure Kobe has been elite after 10...certainly not in the playoffs.

[tpols]

What do you call elite? I think that is the question.

Is a 17/9/3 big man playing elite interior defense...elite?

Was Kobe elite in 11? 12?

I mean...I'm assuming playoff averages of 20/15/3 over 17 games while playing elite interior defense makes Duncan elite in 08.

After that I'm not sure about elite. But also...I'm not sure Kobe has been elite after 10...certainly not in the playoffs.
You have had Kobe in your top 5 player list this year and hes hasnt been elite since 10?:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Kobe is actually at 56% TS for his career.

But you're right.

Nobody gets a pass like Timmy does.

If any other superstar was taking nearly 16 FGA per game on that sort of borderline historically bad efficiency, they'd be getting crucified. With Duncan? NOBODY is talking about it.

People are so quick to point out the Lakers failures and attribute them to Kobe, but nobody says shit about Dunkedon.

01 - swept as with #1 seed and HCA

02 - LA had banged up Shaq, yet they blew 3 straight 10+ elads to Kobe dropping big 2nd halves

04 - Up 2-0 in series, only to lose 4 straight.

06 - #1 seed and HCA, yet loses to Mavs in game 7 at home.

09 - #3 Spurs lose to #6 Mavs

11 - #1 seed Spurs lose to #8 Grizzlies

12 - #1 seed Spurs lose to OKC despite being up 2-0

You never hear this shit brought up.

Like I said, Duncan gets a bigger pass than probably any star in history.

[DMAVS41]

You have had Kobe in your top 5 player list this year and hes hasnt been elite since 10?:oldlol:

I meant overall since 10.

Yes...I thought Kobe was elite in the regular season this year. But I'd say the same thing about Duncan and actually said so a number of times.

[tpols]

Kobe is actually at 56% TS for his career.

But you're right.

Nobody gets a pass like Timmy does.

If any other superstar was taking nearly 16 FGA per game on that sort of borderline historically bad efficiency, they'd be getting crucified. With Duncan? NOBODY is talking about it.

People are so quick to point out the Lakers failures and attribute them to Kobe, but nobody says shit about Dunkedon.

01 - swept as with #1 seed and HCA

02 - LA had banged up Shaq, yet they blew 3 straight 10+ elads to Kobe dropping big 2nd halves

04 - Up 2-0 in series, only to lose 4 straight.

06 - #1 seed and HCA, yet loses to Mavs in game 7 at home.

09 - #3 Spurs lose to #6 Mavs

11 - #1 seed Spurs lose to #8 Grizzlies

12 - #1 seed Spurs lose to OKC despite being up 2-0

You never hear this shit brought up.

Like I said, Duncan gets a bigger pass than probably any star in history.
Its because Kobe does take a lot of bad shots.. or shots that the average fan would scratch their head at.

But he averages it all out with great hot streaks. Kobe is 10x more polarizing than Duncan so he gets hated on more.

Plus Kobe always goes down with the sinking ship, hes either going to miss or make it but he will always try to take the game over. So when he fails its much more visible.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe is actually at 56% TS for his career.

But you're right.

Nobody gets a pass like Timmy does.

If any other superstar was taking nearly 16 FGA per game on that sort of borderline historically bad efficiency, they'd be getting crucified. With Duncan? NOBODY is talking about it.

People are so quick to point out the Lakers failures and attribute them to Kobe, but nobody says shit about Dunkedon.

01 - swept as with #1 seed and HCA

02 - LA had banged up Shaq, yet they blew 3 straight 10+ elads to Kobe dropping big 2nd halves

04 - Up 2-0 in series, only to lose 4 straight.

06 - #1 seed and HCA, yet loses to Mavs in game 7 at home.

09 - #3 Spurs lose to #6 Mavs

11 - #1 seed Spurs lose to #8 Grizzlies

12 - #1 seed Spurs lose to OKC despite being up 2-0

You never hear this shit brought up.

Like I said, Duncan gets a bigger pass than probably any star in history.

There have certainly been times when Duncan's teams have underperformed in the playoffs.

The problem with your take is that you ignore that Duncan has easily won the most with the least in NBA history. He's just never had truly great great teams. And the only stretch he had that in my opinion was 05-07....and outside of that 1 Mavs series...they win 3 titles.

But Duncan's help has been a complete and total..."meh" historically...and especially compared to Kobe.

Put it this way. Imagine the success of a team with Duncan as the clear cut 2nd best player on it for 8 years. Imagine that. It's hard to even imagine.

[Ne 1]

Duncan's been really solid for a while, but when's the last time he's been elite? 07 or 08?

2008 is the last year I'd say he was truly elite. Also he brings up that Kobe's team got defeated in the 2nd round in 2011 and 2012, but after '08, the Spurs lost in the first round in '09 in 5, swept in the 2nd round in '10 and got embarrassed losing in the first round to an 8th seed as the #1 seed in '11. How's that any better than losing in the 2nd round twice after 3-straight Finals with back-to-back titles?



He can carry poor casts offensively. The 07 Lakers' 2nd and 3rd best offensive players were Odom and Walton, who missed 20+ games a piece.. and they still had the 7th best offense in the league. That was the year Phil gave him the green light to go off post all-star, when he averaged 37 a game and had the 50pt streak

2006 as well. Phil asked Kobe to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in a staked Western Conference and had the 8th best offense in the league with not much of a cast outside of Lamar Odom who was really inconsistent and didn't play like an all-star caliber player until the second half of the season.

[tpols]

Efficiency comparison of recent all time great guards...

Michael Jordan- 56.9 TS, 51 eFG

Dwayne Wade- 56.7 TS, 50 eFG

Kobe Bryant- 55.5 TS, 49 eFG

Vince Carter- 53.8 TS, 49 eFG

Tracy McGrady- 51.9 TS, 47 eFG

Allen Iverson- 51.8 TS, 45 eFG












and just for fun...

Tim Duncan- 55.2 TS, 51 eFG


Kobe, overall is actually more efficient than Tim Duncan, and clearly much closer to MJ and Wade than Tmac and Iverson.

[DMAVS41]

2008 is the last year I'd say he was truly elite. Also he brings up that Kobe's team got defeated in the 2nd round in 2011 and 2012, but after '08, the Spurs lost in the first round in '09 in 5, swept in the 2nd round in '10 and got embarrassed losing in the first round to an 8th seed as the #1 seed in '11. How's that any better than losing in the 2nd round twice after 3-straight Finals with back-to-back titles?

He can carry poor casts offensively. The 07 Lakers' 2nd and 3rd best offensive players were Odom and Walton, who missed 20+ games a piece.. and they still had the 7th best offense in the league. That was the year Phil gave him the green light to go off post all-star, when he averaged 37 a game and had the 50pt streak

2006 as well. Phil asked Kobe to carry the team until they learned the triangle, and they ended up with 45 wins in a staked Western Conference and had the 8th best offense in the league with not much of a cast outside of Lamar Odom who was really inconsistent and didn't play like an all-star caliber player until the second half of the season.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say it was better. I'm asking what the definition of "elite" is. Obviously Kobe was better than Duncan in 08, 09, and 10...and Kobe was elite all of those years.

But since? I'm not so sure...I'd say absolutely not in the playoffs. I wasn't saying Duncan has been either...although I think he was in 08 for sure...and I think Duncan has been somewhere around the 5th to 10th best player this year overall.

We can go back and forth on definitions of words forever. But what players outside of Lebron, Durant, and Paul are you for sure taking over Duncan in a playoff series? Yea, guys like Kobe, Westbrook, and Harden would be better at carrying bad teams...but I'd take Duncan even with or over those guys in many other roles.

Duncan should be a first team all-nba and first team all defensive player this year and he's playing really well on a team poised to make the finals. Hard for me to ignore that.

[chazzy]

There have certainly been times when Duncan's teams have underperformed in the playoffs.

The problem with your take is that you ignore that Duncan has easily won the most with the least in NBA history. He's just never had truly great great teams. And the only stretch he had that in my opinion was 05-07....and outside of that 1 Mavs series...they win 3 titles.

But Duncan's help has been a complete and total..."meh" historically...and especially compared to Kobe.

Put it this way. Imagine the success of a team with Duncan as the clear cut 2nd best player on it for 8 years. Imagine that. It's hard to even imagine.
He's had great help for the past 3 seasons.. they revamped the offense and gave the keys to their perimeter, been a ~60 win team since with Duncan as their 2nd best player (3rd in '11 when they won 61)

[tpols]

He's had great help for the past 3 seasons.. they revamped the offense and gave the keys to their perimeter, been a ~60 win team since with Duncan as their 2nd best player (3rd in '11 when they won 61)
Its a joke how underrated the SAS organization is..

They have been the best coached, most disciplined, best run team in the NBA for over a decade.

They winning 60+ games with Duncan as a role player in previous years(not this one) and people say Duncan had no help.

Duncan has never once had a bad team for his whole career.

[DMAVS41]

He's had great help for the past 3 seasons.. they revamped the offense and gave the keys to their perimeter, been a ~60 win team since with Duncan as their 2nd best player (3rd in '11 when they won 61)

?

And look at the results. When Duncan struggled in 11...they lost. Now they have made two straight WCF and maybe a finals or more this year potentially.

Look at Kobe's help as well. Pretty damn good...especially in 11.

And again...regular season success can be had by great coaching, proper mentality, effort, professional nature...etc.

Success in the playoffs takes more. Which is why you've seen the Spurs not win a title since Duncan started his decline.

It's actually evidence of how important and impactful Duncan really was/is.

The 07 Mavs and 09 Cavs can have historic regular seasons...but are hardly great teams or great help. Regular season success is just not a great indicator in terms of the strength of a team in a lot of cases.

[DMAVS41]

Its a joke how underrated the SAS organization is..

They have been the best coached, most disciplined, best run team in the NBA for over a decade.

They winning 60+ games with Duncan as a role player in previous years(not this one) and people say Duncan had no help.

Duncan has never once had a bad team for his whole career.

And Kobe has had 3 bad teams his entire career....and was the clear cut 2nd best player or worse on his team for 8 years.

Duncan has been the clear cut not best player on his team for 2 years in his career.

Nobody is saying Duncan hasn't had really good teams...but historically...it's just meh. To win 4 titles with that help....is amazing.

And you guys under-rate his impact.

[Jacks3]

The teams built around Kobe during his prime were no better than the what Duncan had around himself. Dude has played with 2 All-Star caliber guards pretty much every year since 05. He has the GOAT coach. His game falls off a cliff and his team is still winning 55-60+ games every freaking year. He puts up efficiency numbers worse than Iverson level on 16 FGA per game and his team is still 9-2 in this current post-season.He can go 3-9 for 6 pts and still have his team win by 20+ against a 57 win team. What other superstar has these type of luxuries?

:oldlol:

[Ne 1]

You have had Kobe in your top 5 player list this year and hes hasnt been elite since 10?:oldlol:

2012 he was definitely elite, top 5 that year. 2011? Well he was top 10, not as low as 10, but probably not quite as high as 5th. Still more well rounded than Durant, but with the loss in athleticism, decline defensively and poor playoff showing, I'd put him just outside the top 5. This season he was definitely elite, playing at a top 3 level. Shame he had that season ending injury battling to keep the Lakers in playoff contention.

[tpols]

And Kobe has had 3 bad teams his entire career....and was the clear cut 2nd best player or worse on his team for 8 years.

Duncan has been the clear cut not best player on his team for 2 years in his career.

Nobody is saying Duncan hasn't had really good teams...but historically...it's just meh. To win 4 titles with that help....is amazing.

And you guys under-rate his impact.
Duncan is a top 8ish GOAT.. his impact is all time great. So is Kobe's.

I think its a toss up between them. But I just dont agree with what youre saying. Duncans help wasnt meh at all.

Hes had the most consistent 'good' help Ive ever seen and the chemistry that builds with HOF level players and coaches Manu and Parker over a decade makes for special teamwork and execution.

Its not just about talent taking over.. SAS plays straight team ball.

Duncan averaged 14/9 for 2 years before his resurgence this year and his team won 110 games.

110 games.

Duncan is shooting 50%TS in the playoffs this year. Kobe shot 50%TS in 04 playoffs and got crucified for it. Theres just a lot of double standards in this comparison.

[DMAVS41]

The teams built around Kobe during his prime were no better than the what Duncan had around himself. Dude has played with 2 All-Star caliber guards pretty much every year since 05. He has the GOAT coach. His game falls off a cliff and his team is still winning 55-60+ games every freaking year. He puts up efficiency numbers worse than Iverson level on 16 FGA per game and his team is still 9-2 in this current post-season.He can go 3-9 for 6 pts and still have his team win by 20+ against a 57 win team. What other superstar has these type of luxuries?

:oldlol:

Well...I don't agree with most of that.

But the reason Duncan's efficiency isn't as big of a deal is because he impacts the game in so many other ways. Duncan's best attribute is his defense. Even in his prime in my opinion.

That is what you can't grasp. If Duncan has an off game offensively...it doesn't have the same impact that a guy like Kobe does. Duncan simply bring more to the table than Kobe night in night out.

I would just love to see Kobe fans with Kobe playing on a team like the Spurs. Everyone would "suck" according to you guys...you'd see Kobe dominate the ball and get the whole team out of rhythm...Bonner would suck. Leonard would suck. Manu would be a head case. Splitter would be useless...and on and on. Only Parker would be considered good.

Duncan's selfless team first style promotes the kind of ball that the Spurs play. You could never play that with Kobe...so that side of your comparison is useless.

[NumberSix]

Can't wait to see where Duncan stacks up after his 5th ring and 5th Finals MVP.
Exposed. :roll:

[chazzy]

Nobody is saying Duncan hasn't had really good teams...but historically...it's just meh. To win 4 titles with that help....is amazing.

Well, it's all about relativity to your competition right? He had Manu in 05 dropping 21/6/4 on 65 TS%.. and then a 3rd option giving you 17/4 on poor efficiency. That's some damn good help. And then in 07 he had Parker with 21/6 and that great finals performance, and Manu with 17/5/4. So 2 of his 4 rings right there came with great help.. (including one of the GOAT coaches) no argument from me about 99 and 03 about his help, though his competition wasn't great outside of those Laker teams maybe

[DMAVS41]

Duncan is a top 8ish GOAT.. his impact is all time great. So is Kobe's.

I think its a toss up between them. But I just dont agree with what youre saying. Duncans help wasnt meh at all.

Hes had the most consistent 'good' help Ive ever seen and the chemistry that builds with HOF level players and coaches Manu and Parker over a decade makes for special teamwork and execution.

Its not just about talent taking over.. SAS plays straight team ball.

Duncan averaged 14/9 for 2 years before his resurgence this year and his team won 110 games.

110 games.

Duncan is shooting 50%TS in the playoffs this year. Kobe shot 50%TS in 04 playoffs and got crucified for it. Theres just a lot of double standards in this comparison.

Not at all.

You are just too dense to understand the main points. So I'll share them yet again.

You say SAS plays straight team ball. Kobe teams can't do that. So that immediately blows that notion out of the water. No Kobe led team is playing straight team ball because he's too big of a ball hog and high volume scorer. So it is impossible to replicate that with Kobe.

Next, Duncan's efficiency isn't as important. He does so many other things that make him valuable. His best attribute has always been his defense and rebounding....especially in his prime. Duncan's only true weakness was his ft shooting. So if you want to talk about that....I totally agree.

But the whole efficiency thing just doesn't matter as much. It matters with Kobe because he is a shoot first, shoot a lot guard that promotes isolation and a lack of team ball...Duncan is the exact opposite.

And again you over-rate the **** out of Parker and Manu....hell, Duncan proved he didn't even need them...he essentially won 2 of his titles without them. Your points would make more sense if 03 never happened...but it did.

Where is Kobe's 03? It doesn't exist...sorry.

[tpols]

Well, it's all about relativity to your competition right? He had Manu in 05 dropping 21/6/4 on 65 TS%.. and then a 3rd option giving you 17/4 on poor efficiency. That's some damn good help. And then in 07 he had Parker with 21/6 and that great finals performance, and Manu with 17/5/4. So 2 of his 4 rings right there came with great help.. no argument from me about 99 and 03 about his help, though his competition wasn't great outside of those Laker teams maybe
The myth around duncans teams is the biggest bullshit Ive evr seen to be honest.

Just because they win with teamwork, execution, coaching, discipline, accountability instead of starpower..

Talent is more visible, but help is help. Even if its harder to see.

[NumberSix]

Kobe is the luxury version of Melo.

[DMAVS41]

Well, it's all about relativity to your competition right? He had Manu in 05 dropping 21/6/4 on 65 TS%.. and then a 3rd option giving you 17/4 on poor efficiency. That's some damn good help. And then in 07 he had Parker with 21/6 and that great finals performance, and Manu with 17/5/4. So 2 of his 4 rings right there came with great help.. (including one of the GOAT coaches) no argument from me about 99 and 03 about his help, though his competition wasn't great outside of those Laker teams maybe

Who said it isn't damn good help? I said it is historically "meh"...which it is for a 4 time champion. Hell...you even admit it about 99 and 03 in the next sentence.

If he had accomplished everything in his career with prime Parker and Manu the entire time...then he'd have more help...but he didn't do that.

Lets put this another way. What player in NBA history has won 4 titles as the best player with similar or less help?

[BlackVVaves]

This board gets dumber by the day.

[DMAVS41]

The myth around duncans teams is the biggest bullshit Ive evr seen to be honest.

Just because they win with teamwork, execution, coaching, discipline, accountability instead of starpower..

Talent is more visible, but help is help. Even if its harder to see.

You couldn't do all those things with Kobe. You keep talking about teamwork, execution...and all that crap. That can't happen with ball hog Kobe dominating the ball and abandoning the offense all the time. That is why Duncan's value is actually probably way bigger than he gets credit for. That is part of the point. He's able to be great playing with or without the ball. He can be great playing a big role or small role. He's selfless and is clearly a better teammate...etc.

Nobody is saying Duncan had no help. I said he didn't have the kind of help that it has taken the other elite players of all time to win a lot of rings.

Kobe is obviously a different and better player than Melo, but look at the Knicks this year in the playoffs. Look at what the ball stopping, iso after iso, chucking...does to a team.

You have Chandler bitching...other players all our of rhythm..etc. The Knicks were at their best when playing like the 11 Mavs like they did often in the regular season.

But it's harder to do that playing with guys like Melo and Kobe than it is Duncan and Dirk...or less selfish players. Now, there are advantages to the Kobe style as well...but you can't keep touting the Spurs superior team oriented philosophy when said philosophy with Kobe is essentially impossible.

[NumberSix]

Timmy's 2003 roster wasn't anything to be to excited about.

[chazzy]

This grouping Melo and Kobe stuff has to stop. They are not even on the same level of ball stopping and lack of playmaking, Kobe's been a part of elite offenses throughout his career as the primary scorer and/or playmaker. It's worked despite what people say about his ball hogging

[DMAVS41]

This grouping Melo and Kobe stuff has to stop. They are not even on the same level of ball stopping and lack of playmaking, Kobe's been a part of elite offenses throughout his career as the primary scorer and/or playmaker. It's worked despite what people say about his ball hogging

Of course it has. Which is just said. The GOAT played virtually the exact same style Kobe does. So it works...nobody said it can't.

What needs to actually stop is this notion that Kobe style leads to team oriented play that keeps being brought up when talking about the Spurs. They can do that because of what Duncan brings to the table. So it's a total non point.

[tpols]

You couldn't do all those things with Kobe. You keep talking about teamwork, execution...and all that crap. That can't happen with ball hog Kobe dominating the ball and abandoning the offense all the time. That is why Duncan's value is actually probably way bigger than he gets credit for. That is part of the point. He's able to be great playing with or without the ball. He can be great playing a big role or small role. He's selfless and is clearly a better teammate...etc.

Nobody is saying Duncan had no help. I said he didn't have the kind of help that it has taken the other elite players of all time to win a lot of rings.

Kobe is obviously a different and better player than Melo, but look at the Knicks this year in the playoffs. Look at what the ball stopping, iso after iso, chucking...does to a team.

You have Chandler bitching...other players all our of rhythm..etc. The Knicks were at their best when playing like the 11 Mavs like they did often in the regular season.

But it's harder to do that playing with guys like Melo and Kobe than it is Duncan and Dirk...or less selfish players. Now, there are advantages to the Kobe style as well...but you can't keep touting the Spurs superior team oriented philosophy when said philosophy with Kobe is essentially impossible.
Kobe and duncan have totally different styles and mindsets.

Duncans fit a certain mold while Kobe's fit another.

Because Kobe doesnt fit as well with Pop's plan it means duncan didnt have great help? What? That makes literally no sense.

And to the melo point.. I just dont even know what to say. Could destroy you there but.. eh. This is getting boring.

[NumberSix]

What Kobe and Melo have in common is they both require teams that have an even smaller margins for error. You can win with Kobe, but you better have size, rebounding and guys to clean up and do the dirty work. You're definitely not winning a chip with no center and no pg like Jordan and LeBron did.

[Unbiased_one]

5 >>> 3.5 :confusedshrug:

so you're counting the 2002 ring as a full one but taking away half of one of duncan's?

Rings are a massively over-rated stat. It's a team game.

[chazzy]

What Kobe and Melo have in common is they both require teams that have an even smaller margins for error. You can win with Kobe, but you better have size, rebounding and guys to clean up and do the dirty work. You're definitely not winning a chip with no center and no pg like Jordan and LeBron did.
It may be possible if you have guys like Wade, Bosh, Pippen, Rodman.. :oldlol: everyone needs catered help around them to win

[Ne 1]

and was the clear cut 2nd best player or worse on his team for 8 years.

Except 2 of those years 6 years he was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the entire league and any perimeter player in NBA history would have also been the 2nd best player on that team, and Kobe those 2 years on any other team wouldn't be "the 2nd best player on his team", and the other 2 years after that not many people would say he was the "clear 2nd best", he was seen much more as 1a/1b, pretty much neck and neck. So who cares? It's irrelevant if he was playing with another guy who was slightly better for 4 of 6 years. You only really have a good point regarding the '98-'99 and '99-'00 years. To simply put it as he was the clear cut 2nd best player on his team for 8 years is not only a bit disingenuous but cherry picking a poor argument to boot.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe and duncan have totally different styles and mindsets.

Duncans fit a certain mold while Kobe's fit another.

Because Kobe doesnt fit as well with Pop's plan it means duncan didnt have great help? What? That makes literally no sense.

And to the melo point.. I just dont even know what to say. Could destroy you there but.. eh. This is getting boring.

What????? What kind of response is this? You keep bringing up the Pop style of play. You can't ****ing do that with Kobe. So stop saying the Spurs are only good because they play a certain type of team ball. Because you can't do that with a guy that takes 20 plus shots a game and has the ball in his hands so much...he relegates Nash to playing off the ball...rofl.

Duncan had good help...great help some years. But it ultimately comes down to a certain level of help that just isn't there year in year out that other players with similar results have had. That is all I said.

I even said Melo is not Kobe. But that ball dominant wing style...albeit Kobe is a much better player, passer, defender...all of that....it curbs team play.

I'd say the same thing about MJ...the player i think is the GOAT. The point is to try and show you that you can't play the certain style with Kobe you seem to think is better...as you credit the style more than Duncan.

Now...think about it the other way. You keep saying how great Kobe has been these last few years. Ok...then should we then credit his help more in the past when he won? Because if Kobe has been elite...then clearly it was his supporting cast that was the main reason for success. That is essentially what you are saying with Duncan. So Kobe, no different than anyone, sees his supporting cast not play as well...and they are bounced in the playoffs easily 3 straight years now.

So it goes both ways.

Really....your bias is shown through the fact that you can't even admit Duncan is a better team player.

That is the problem that Rose and Kobe fans have in common. They want to bitch and moan about players not being able to "create their own shot" and then turn around and want Kobe/Rose to be able to dominate the ball and every possession playing the opposite of team ball....and have the role players step up on both ends. That is a lot harder to do. And it's why both of those guys take crap because they are often hard to play with.

Again...MJ was the same way. He was just way better.

[Jacks3]

This is what I'm talking about. The lengths people go to suck Duncan's cawk is hilarious.

Game falls off a cliff. Nothing more than a role-player. Not even the best on his own team. Not even top 2 on many nights. Team still keeps winning 58-60+ games every year. Routinely plays mediocre in games where his teams win. Pathetic, horrifically bad post-season efficiency and his team is still 9-2. People start talking about his mystical "unselfishness" and "team ball approach" instead of simply acknowledging how great the rest of the roster is and what a incredible coach Pop is. If the exact same scenario happened with Bryant, all you'd hear is people talking shit about his "stacked" supporting cast and how he's being "carried".

These clowns and their double-standards. :roll:

[sportjames23]

Kobe is the luxury version of Melo.


Does that make Kobe the economic version of MJ? :D

[DMAVS41]

Except 2 of those years 6 years he was the 2nd or 3rd best player in the entire league and any perimeter player in NBA history would have also been the 2nd best player on that team, and Kobe those 2 years on any other team wouldn't be the 2nd best player on his team, and the other 2 years after that not many people would say he was the "clear 2nd best", he was seen much more as 1a/1b, pretty much neck and neck. So who cares? It's irrelevant if he was playing with another guy who was slightly better for 4 of 6 years. You only really have a good point regarding the '98-'99 and '99-'00 years. To simply put it as he was the clear cut 2nd best player on his team for 8 years is not only a bit disingenuous but cherry picking a poor argument to boot.

No. The point is simple. Forget the clear cut 2nd best player if you cant. Make it 1a/1b if that makes it easier.

If Duncan was ever part of a 1a/1b duo on a solid team for 8 years of his career...especially the first 8....the results would just be hard to even imagine.

Because there are maybe like 10 players at their peaks in NBA history that could be in a 1a/1b situation with prime Duncan.

I personally just can't imagine what a pairing like Bird and Duncan would together. And that would be about the equivalent of Kobe getting Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

This is what I'm talking about. The lengths people go to suck Duncan's cawk is hilarious.

Game falls off a cliff. Nothing more than a role-player. Not even the best on his own team. Not even top 2 on many nights. Team still keeps winning 58-60+ games every year. Routinely plays mediocre in games where his teams win. Pathetic, horrifically bad post-season efficiency and his team is still 9-2. People start talking about his mystical "unselfishness" and "team ball approach" instead of simply acknowledging how great the rest of the roster is and what a incredible coach Pop is. If the exact same scenario happened with Bryant, all you'd hear is people talking shit about his "stacked" supporting cast and how he's being "carried".

These clowns and their double-standards. :roll:

And they lost in the first round....to the 8th seed.

You'd have a point if this Spurs team was doing things deep into the playoffs without Duncan. But they never have.

Regular season success is so ****ing over-rated here. I guess the 07 Mavs are better than the current Heat because they won more regular season games.

WTF....

Made even worse by the fact that Kobe's teams without him over his entire career essentially have the same win percentage as posted in another thread the other day. Means nothing to me...but using that against Duncan is just priceless coming from Kobe fans.

[Ne 1]

And then in 07 he had Parker with 21/6 and that great finals performance, and Manu with 17/5/4.

Not to mention laughably weak competition (Jazz in the WCF? Cavs in Finals?) and had to get help from Stern (suspensions) to beat the only legit team standing in their way. (Disgusting what happened to the Suns) Spurs really lucked out that the Warriors upset the Mavs in the first round, had a total cakewalk to the Finals.

[chazzy]

No. The point is simple. Forget the clear cut 2nd best player if you cant. Make it 1a/1b if that makes it easier.

If Duncan was ever part of a 1a/1b duo on a solid team for 8 years of his career...especially the first 8....the results would just be hard to even imagine.

Because there are maybe like 10 players at their peaks in NBA history that could be in a 1a/1b situation with prime Duncan.

I personally just can't imagine what a pairing like Bird and Duncan would together. And that would be about the equivalent of Kobe getting Shaq.
This is disingenuous because Kobe wasn't even a top 10 player for 3 out of the 8 years.. doesn't the stage of their career in terms of ability matter?

[Unbiased_one]

Not to mention really weak competition (Jazz in the WCF? Cavs in Finals?) and had to get help from Stern (suspensions) to beat the only legit team standing in their way. (Disgusting what happened to the Suns)

oh come on...2002?????????

[DMAVS41]

This is disingenuous because Kobe wasn't even a top 10 player for 3 out of the 8 years.. doesn't the stage of their career in terms of ability matter?

But that is the point. Duncan has never had a year in which his value was as low as Kobe's first 3 years. And he was also better than Kobe more years than he wasn't.

That was the point I'm making. There is essentially no version of Duncan like early Kobe.

Hence my point about Duncan's longevity being actually superior...and that is what you replied to. Duncan was never as bad as Kobe's worst...and Kobe was never as good as Duncan's best. Combine that with Duncan being able to do what he's doing now and with all he's accomplished...I just don't see the reasoning.

[chazzy]

But that is the point. Duncan has never had a year in which his value was as low as Kobe's first 3 years. And he was also better than Kobe more years than he wasn't.

That was the point I'm making. There is essentially no version of Duncan like early Kobe.

Hence my point about Duncan's longevity being actually superior...and that is what you replied to.
It would be valid had I simply said something general about Kobe's 17 years in the league or something. My point was the fact that Kobe being in the conversation for being a top 3-5 player for the past 5 years while Duncan hasn't (some years not even close) is a big deal IMO. Not simply sustaining a good level of play like Duncan, but an elite one is a better testament to his longevity.

I agree with you that it's closer than people think because of Kobe slow start and Duncan's strong one, but I think difference comes from these past 5 years of Kobe not having as much of a drop off from his prime level compared to Duncan

[branslowski]

I think Duncans resume is better than Kobes, also have Duncan higher than Kobe on my All-time list...but as pure players with skill, epic ability and importance, Kobes far greater...Over the last 5 yrs, Duncans had 10pt 6 reb type games, he's been benched in the 4th for better Defense exc...Ppl don't mention Duncan til he has a rare 30pt 10reb game, he hasn't been in top 5 players in the league debates in about a decade, and Tony Parker was the MVP canidate of the team for a ill minute...Just sayin, Duncan dominates a game rarely, but wen he does, its kinda special.

[DMAVS41]

It would be valid had I simply said something general about Kobe's 17 years in the league or something. My point was the fact that Kobe being in the conversation for being a top 3-5 player for the past 5 years while Duncan hasn't (some years not even close) is a big deal IMO. Not simply sustaining a good level of play like Duncan, but an elite one is a better testament to his longevity.

And what about the first 4 years of Kobe's career? When Duncan was already there and Kobe wasn't even top 10 until his 4th year?

Is that not a big deal?

Again. Kobe's worst is much worse than Duncan's...and Kobe's best falls short of Duncan's best.

Duncan proved he can win with less. And Duncan is still going strong in year 16 and never had the learning curve Kobe did.

And are you calling Kobe elite in 11? Because the results and level of play certainly don't warrant that.

[chosen_wun]

Kobe can't hold a candle to Duncan.

Duncan has been contending with 2 throw away picks for 10+ years now. He literally was given a 28th and 59th selection and made a dynasty of it.

Fact: Kobe has never won without the best, and most overwhelming front courts in the league. He himself has never been the one to put a team over the top, his bigs were. Out of every player in the top 10, Kobe statiscally has the least impact. Even an advanced metric like PER which usually benefits high usage players like Kobe, tells that he has never stood out as the best. Same with win shares.

He's an anomaly in the top 10. Great resume, suspect impact.

[DMAVS41]

I think Duncans resume is better than Kobes, also have Duncan higher than Kobe on my All-time list...but as pure players with skill, epic ability and importance, Kobes far greater...Over the last 5 yrs, Duncans had 10pt 6 reb type games, he's been benched in the 4th for better Defense exc...Ppl don't mention Duncan til he has a rare 30pt 10reb game, he hasn't been in top 5 players in the league debates in about a decade, and Tony Parker was the MVP canidate of the team for a ill minute...Just sayin, Duncan dominates a game rarely, but wen he does, its kinda special.

But that is kind of the point I'm making about this team ball argument being used against Duncan.

He had two huge games without Parker and Manu this year when he was more the focal. One of them was against the Hawks I think because I remember watching it...something like 33 and 13 or whatever. He'd do that shit more if he had a team that needed that more or was just set up for him to do that.

It wouldn't make him better though.

And I'll keep repeating it. Kobe's best attribute is his scoring. Duncan's best attribute is his defense. People, not you, continue to ignore that.

[chazzy]

Duncan has been contending with 2 throw away picks for 10+ years now. He literally was given a 28th and 59th selection and made a dynasty of it.

He literally birthed Parker and Ginobili and taught them how to play basketball as well right?

[branslowski]

But that is kind of the point I'm making about this team ball argument being used against Duncan.

He had two huge games without Parker and Manu this year when he was more the focal. One of them was against the Hawks I think because I remember watching it...something like 33 and 13 or whatever. He'd do that shit more if he had a team that needed that more or was just set up for him to do that.

It wouldn't make him better though.

And I'll keep repeating it. Kobe's best attribute is his scoring. Duncan's best attribute is his defense. People, not you, continue to ignore that.

Tru, I feel you...just over the last decade Kobe has been more of the greater player than Duncan...I mean Duncan had 5 super great games in a 82 game season..And as we both know, scoring in the NBA is more important than individual defense...Not fair, but it is wat it is...At the end of the day though, Duncan is underrated on these boards and media life imo...I have him far greater than Bird, Hakeem...just sayin...Neway, I love Duncan, so I will take no parts of this thread that seems like it will go nowhere lol

[DMAVS41]

Tru, I feel you...just over the last decade Kobe has been more of the greater player than Duncan...I mean Duncan had 5 super great games in a 82 game season..And as we both know, scoring in the NBA is more important than individual defense...Not fair, but it is wat it is...At the end of the day though, Duncan is underrated on these boards and media life imo...I have him far greater than Bird, Hakeem...just sayin...Neway, I love Duncan, so I will take no parts of this thread that seems like it will go nowhere lol

I definitely agree that scoring on the individual level is more important than individual defense.

I'd take Duncan over Kobe every year from 99 through 07...I'm sure some would take Kobe in 06 and 07...but I wouldn't.

I'd take Kobe from 08 through 11. Not sure who I'd take the last 2 years.

And I'll maintain that Duncan's best is better than Kobe's best...and that Kobe's worst is worse than Duncan's worst.

Combine all that with Duncan proving he can win with less help and play a lesser role...etc. I'll take Duncan over Kobe.

[Carbine]

Duncan = Kobe, there is a debate to be made either way.

I prefer Duncan and his unselfishness and low key ways, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Kobe's accomplishments for his career and as a player that I would bark at someone for saying they prefer Kobe.

To anyone saying Kobe or Duncan and it's not even close is misguided.

[chazzy]

Not sure who I'd take the last 2 years.
I don't see it.. Duncan needs a lot more rest at this stage in his career. Only played 28 and 30mpg these past two years.. sat double digit amount of 2nd of back to backs

[DMAVS41]

I don't see it.. Duncan needs a lot more rest at this stage in his career. Only played 28 and 30mpg these past two years.. sat double digit amount of 2nd of back to backs

Well. Kobe isn't playing anymore...so

But I find it crazy how you can say that...especially this year.

We just saw Duncan put up 18/10/3 with 3 blocks and the best or 2nd best interior defense individually in the league on a team that won 58 games.

And I'm supposed to ignore that in favor of what Kobe did this year...combined with not playing in the playoffs?

I don't see it.

Just more examples of people flocking to ppg averages. And I actually rate Kobe very highly this year...not a knock on him. It's about Duncan being better than he gets credit for.

[Ne 1]

He literally was given a 28th and 59th selection and made a dynasty of it.

Dynasty? They never even won back-to back titles.

His Spurs teams always won scavenger titles. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a championship team got old and stopped. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a team got old and stopped winning.

2003: Won on the heels of a true dynasty falling apart.

2005: Probably the most legit ring they won.

2007: Won on the heels of the champion Heat getting too old too fast. Not to mention really weak competition (Jazz in WCF? Cavs in Finals?) + had to get help from Stern (suspensions) to beat the only legit team standing in their way. (Disgusting what happens to the Suns) Also very lucky that the Warriors upset the Mavs in the 1st round, had a cakewalk to the championship that year.

[tpols]

Duncan = Kobe, there is a debate to be made either way.

I prefer Duncan and his unselfishness and low key ways, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Kobe's accomplishments for his career and as a player that I would bark at someone for saying they prefer Kobe.

To anyone saying Kobe or Duncan and it's not even close is misguided.
Very true.

Which is why this thread is dumb..

[kNicKz]

He could have been another AI or Melo.

Or Cleveland Lebron

[dh144498]

Dynasty? They never even won back-to back titles.

His Spurs teams always won scavenger titles. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a championship team got old and stopped. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a team got old and stopped winning.

2003: Won on the heels of a true dynasty falling apart.

2005: Probably the most legit ring they won.

2007: Won on the heels of the champion Heat getting too old too fast. Not to mention really weak competition (Jazz in WCF? Cavs in Finals?) + had to get help from Stern (suspensions) to beat the only legit team standing in their way. (Disgusting what happens to the Suns) Also very lucky that the Warriors upset the Mavs in the 1st round, had a cakewalk to the championship that year.

this. 05 was their only impressive win against arguably the greatest defense of all time in the pistons. a well fought out 7 game series.

[The-Legend-24]

Duncan's been a fvcking role player the past 4 years or so, and his teams still win the western conference. :roll: But who gives a fvck right, he's still better even though Kobe's been elite for pretty much his whole career, and constantly shits on him and his teams in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan's been a fvcking role player the past 4 years or so, and his teams still win the western conference. :roll: But who gives a fvck right, he's still better even though Kobe's been elite for pretty much his whole career, and constantly shits on him and his teams in the playoffs.

WTF are you on?

So now a second team all defensive player averaging 18/10/3 is a role player.

Here is the problem. Duncan is a better player...or at least as valuable a player as James Harden.

That is what is so wrong with you people...you don't get that.

[DMAVS41]

It would be valid had I simply said something general about Kobe's 17 years in the league or something. My point was the fact that Kobe being in the conversation for being a top 3-5 player for the past 5 years while Duncan hasn't (some years not even close) is a big deal IMO. Not simply sustaining a good level of play like Duncan, but an elite one is a better testament to his longevity.

I agree with you that it's closer than people think because of Kobe slow start and Duncan's strong one, but I think difference comes from these past 5 years of Kobe not having as much of a drop off from his prime level compared to Duncan

I didn't see this edit.

But I'd argue the exact opposite for Duncan though. It's seems to be this myth that Duncan has tremendously fallen off.

Per 36 minutes

21/12/4 with 3 blocks on 56%TS

21/11/3/ with 3 blocks on 55% TS

What are those?

The first one is 03 Duncan. The second one is 13 Duncan.

Duncan saw a true dip in production in 11. Other than that he really hasn't fallen off the way you think...especially as his defense and rebounding has remained elite for sure.

He's older and he plays less minutes and of course he's not as good...but he really hasn't fallen off any more than Kobe has like you say.

And the other thing about Duncan needing rest. Sure. So does Kobe though...that is what you are ignoring. He's worn down horribly at the end of the years now in both 11 and this year (so bad this year he's injured)...I'd say Kobe needs rest to.

Also, you speak about the gap between them at certain times. The gap between Duncan and first 3 years of Kobe is much larger than any gap that ever existed in Kobe's favor throughout their careers.

[FiveRings]

What Kobe and Melo have in common is they both require teams that have an even smaller margins for error. You can win with Kobe, but you better have size, rebounding and guys to clean up and do the dirty work. You're definitely not winning a chip with no center and no pg like Jordan and LeBron did.
2009 Finals

Derek Fisher 11 ppg 1.8 apg

Andrew Bynum 6 ppg 4.2 rpg


2010 Finals

Derek Fisher 8.6 ppg 2 apg

Andrew Bynum 7.4 ppg 5.1 rpg


Pau was great help but why did you bring up the PG and C spots? :oldlol:

[k0kakw0rld]

Very true.

Which is why this thread is dumb..
Duncan >>>>>> Kobe and it's not even close.

Deal with it :coleman:

[bdreason]

1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe



You're welcome.

[PickernRoller]

Gino running the thread to 50 pages. The surprise on my face shattered the mirror.

Nice thread..............















................to take a dump on.

[Odinn]

Dynasty? They never even won back-to back titles.

His Spurs teams always won scavenger titles. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a championship team got old and stopped. Always picking up the pieces when a true dynasty had already fallen apart or a team got old and stopped winning.

2003: Won on the heels of a true dynasty falling apart.

2005: Probably the most legit ring they won.

2007: Won on the heels of the champion Heat getting too old too fast. Not to mention really weak competition (Jazz in WCF? Cavs in Finals?) + had to get help from Stern (suspensions) to beat the only legit team standing in their way. (Disgusting what happens to the Suns) Also very lucky that the Warriors upset the Mavs in the 1st round, had a cakewalk to the championship that year.
How many title runs can you name that can not be criticized?

2010 - the Lakers didn't face a team that could beat them until the finals
2009 - like 2010, much more worse a runner-up, KG was injured and it hurt the contender other than the Lakers.
2008 - the Lakers had health issues.
2007 - Spurs-Suns series and probably the worst runner up in the history.
2006 - the refs
2002 - Lakers-Kings series
2001 - one of the weakest competition from start to end (and do you try to discredit 15-1 due to this?)

It's just recent history. There was a phantom call that got Kareem to the charity stripe and coz of that call Magic won b2b titles. Would you try to discredit Magic due to this? The Bad Boys won their first title against a injred Magic. 1985-86 season was the best season of Bird's career and that Celtics has a great argument for being the best team ever, yet they didn't face the Lakers in the finals. Kareem never repeated in his prime.

Why you just point out only one side of the coin?
Almost all of the top 10 players ever can get criticized like you did. So there is no point of doing it.

Lastly; maybe Duncan's 2003 title 'Won on the heels of a true dynasty falling apart'. Yet Kobe didn't have a title run like Duncan did in 2003.

[Allstar24]

Tim Duncan has been irrelevant since 2007 after Parker won the Finals MVP over him. While Kobe has been the best scorer, champion, and top player in the league for over a decade. Dirk called Kobe the player of their generation. His opinion matters more than some nobody/unknown troll on the internet.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

'00 - Duncan
'01 - Duncan (very close IMO)
'02 - Duncan
'03 - Duncan
'04 - Duncan
'05 - Duncan
'06 - Kobe
'07 - Kobe
'08 - Kobe
'09 - Kobe
'10 - Kobe
'11 - Kobe
'12 - Kobe
'13 - Kobe

Overall? I would take Duncan in his prime, but it's close. People saying otherwise are either biased or completely uneducated.

[Odinn]

Tim Duncan has been irrelevant since 2007 after Parker won the Finals MVP over him. While Kobe has been the best scorer, champion, and top player in the league for over a decade. Dirk called Kobe the player of their generation. His opinion matters more than some nobody/unknown troll on the internet.
And Michael Jordan called Kobe is a top 10 guard all-time.
Julius Erving called KAJ the g.o.a.t.

Your very first sentence just gives the hint about you but...:facepalm :facepalm

[PickernRoller]

Tim Duncan has been irrelevant since 2007 after Parker won the Finals MVP over him. While Kobe has been the best scorer, champion, and top player in the league for over a decade. Dirk called Kobe the player of their generation. His opinion matters more than some nobody/unknown troll on the internet.

And so did Wade and so is the true consensus inside the NBA. Why should anyone care about what others opinions are? Unless there is something fun in trolling. I will admit I engage in it quite often. At the end of the day I don't have to punch faces cause someone disgust me for their stupidity. That in fact would be stupid of me.

arggg uhhg damn, just another........ dump. Carry on fellas - thread is smelly.

[longtime lurker]

'00 - Duncan
'01 - Duncan (very close IMO)
'02 - Duncan
'03 - Duncan
'04 - Duncan
'05 - Duncan
'06 - Kobe
'07 - Kobe
'08 - Kobe
'09 - Kobe
'10 - Kobe
'11 - Kobe
'12 - Kobe
'13 - Kobe

Overall? I would take Duncan in his prime, but it's close. People saying otherwise are either biased or completely uneducated.

This is all that needs to be said. Kobe's the man, Duncan's the man and both deserve respect.

[justin43]

I been gone for ISH for a long time, but some things have always remained the same. Plenty of haters and stans on both sides of the argument.:facepalm

[Carbine]

Some of you guys saying Duncan has been irrelevant since 2007....SMH.

Am I the only one who would take Tim Duncan this year over Kobe this year?

Obviously Kobe does more on offense, but his defense is terrible at this point. He doesn't even try half the time.

Tim Duncan was arguably the best big man in the league on a top 3 team. Top level defense and rebounding. Very good scoring and great passing.

I'll take that over Kobe the DH.

[DMAVS41]

Some of you guys saying Duncan has been irrelevant since 2007....SMH.

Am I the only one who would take Tim Duncan this year over Kobe this year?

Obviously Kobe does more on offense, but his defense is terrible at this point. He doesn't even try half the time.

Tim Duncan was arguably the best big man in the league on a top 3 team. Top level defense and rebounding. Very good scoring and great passing.

I'll take that over Kobe the DH.


I thought they were both great. I thought Kobe was better at his best, but your points are valid. Certainly we all agree you'd take Duncan now that Kobe got injured.

And that is part of this. The Kobe proponents can't knock Duncan for his production/minutes...and then turn around and not factor in Kobe wearing down the last few years...culminating with his injury.

I don't get why people can't see the obvious. If Duncan was playing 36 plus minutes a game as the focal point of an average team...he'd probably put up 24/11/3 or something great. But he'd also wear down and likely get injured the way Kobe has...

But Duncan would not be better because he put up those numbers. It's just a non argument when you have older players like this that clearly should be playing controlled minutes. Kobe got by in part by being a genetic freak and tough as shit...but also resting for at least half of the game defensively. I think its fair to say Kobe took close to half of defensive possessions off this year.

And while indvidual offense is definitely more important than individual defense...Duncan's elite defense combined with his more than solid scoring, rebounding, and passing makes him an undervalued player if you judge him solely on his numbers.

[Orlando Magic]

'00 - Duncan
'01 - Duncan (very close IMO)
'02 - Duncan
'03 - Duncan
'04 - Duncan
'05 - Duncan
'06 - Kobe
'07 - Kobe
'08 - Kobe
'09 - Kobe
'10 - Kobe
'11 - Kobe
'12 - Kobe
'13 - Kobe

Overall? I would take Duncan in his prime, but it's close. People saying otherwise are either biased or completely uneducated.

Let me get you a clue.

There is precisely 0% chance that prime Tim Duncan would ever miss the playoffs unless the team was literally ALL from the NBDL... and even then it's questionable.

Prime Kobe did it.

It's not close.

[DMAVS41]

Let me get you a clue.

There is precisely 0% chance that prime Tim Duncan would ever miss the playoffs unless the team was literally ALL from the NBDL... and even then it's questionable.

Prime Kobe did it.

It's not close.

Neither would a healthy prime Kobe. I think 05 is just a throw away year and doesn't mean much. Kobe bulked up way too much in the off season (i think that was the year) and just wasn't himself.

I don't think 05 Kobe is representative of anything really. But having said that...it does count as a year...and can't be ignored when comparing the longevity of the two.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Let me get you a clue.

There is precisely 0% chance that prime Tim Duncan would ever miss the playoffs unless the team was literally ALL from the NBDL... and even then it's questionable.

Prime Kobe did it.

It's not close.

:confusedshrug:

"Prime Kobe" was injured for a quarter of that season, iirc. Missed over 15 games too.

On a side note, I can't believe I'm defending Kobe :eek:

[RRR3]

Kobe's career turned out the way I wanted T-Mac's career to turn out :(

[RRR3]

Old man Kobe is still better than PRIME Melo. How the hell is Kobe on the same level as Melo? :oldlol:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Am I the only one who would take Tim Duncan this year over Kobe this year?


No, you're not. Duncan was a revitalized and elite defender this year. Duncan is a vastly superior teammate and leader. The gap in offense in favor of Kobe isn't as big as the gap in those other two categories, in favor of Duncan. Besides, Timmy's offense was pretty damn good, 17/18 points on 50%.

[dh144498]

No, you're not. Duncan was a revitalized and elite defender this year. Duncan is a vastly superior teammate and leader. The gap in offense in favor of Kobe isn't as big as the gap in those other two categories, in favor of Duncan. Besides, Timmy's offense was pretty damn good, 17/18 points on 50%.

27ppg on 57%TS >>>>> 18ppg on 55.4%TS. That's a HUGE gap.
on the other hand, Duncan's defense this year >>>> Kobe's.

So they pretty much even out.

[gengiskhan]

agreed!

1 more MVP
1 more FMVP
1 MVP sweep
1 ROTY.

Duncan better than Kobe.

[Mr Exlax]

Duncan never got one of the greatest players ever traded away from the team. Duncan never alienated teammates. Duncan never had teammates quit on him. Kobe's lack of being a good teammate is what will keep him out of my top 10. He's a great player though. Just not a great centerpiece or who I would build around.

[Doctor Rivers]

do people realize this same topic is on the front page three times?