Kobe Bryant is NOT a Top 10 Player.

[Kews1]

In no order these guys are all better.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine, circumstance, the accomplishments achieved primarily by others and the Lakers. While he is indisputably among the greatest to play the game he isnt in the same league at these 10. TRUTH.

[G-Funk]

Goof for u

[Doranku]

I'M WRONG

I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG
I'M WRONG




I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG I'M WRONG. I'M WRONG.

Reworded your post to make your point more clear.

[poido123]

Reworded your post to make your point more clear.


You're so butthurt and sensitive :lol:

[oh the horror]

The irony here is the OP speaks of media hype then proceeds to put Lebron in the top ten of players to ever play meanwhile Lebrons career is far from being over and dude is 1-2 in the finals so far.




Okay bro.



Lebron had ad slogans talking about "we are witness" before dude even did much.

[lebeast666]

http://www.imgur.com/sxx7iTV.png Ya that seems about right

[lebeast666]

The irony here is the OP speaks of media hype then proceeds to put Lebron in the top ten of players to ever play meanwhile Lebrons career is far from being over and dude is 1-2 in the finals so far.




Okay bro.



Lebron had ad slogans talking about "we are witness" before dude even did much.

:confusedshrug: That's how great he is. The hardware will stack up, but greatness is what we were witnessing.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Reworded your post to make your point more clear.
:applause: Nothing to see here.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You're so butthurt and sensitive :lol:

Why do you always put a colon after the smilie?

[FiveRings]

In no order these guys are all better.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine, circumstance, the accomplishments achieved primarily by others and the Lakers. While he is indisputably among the greatest to play the game he isnt in the same league at these 10. TRUTH.
Still salty about the Celts loss in 2010 I see.


http://www.beseeninhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/lakers4.jpg


http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280213-1/Kobe+Bryant+is+elated+as+he+wears+a+Laker+2010+Cha mpionship+cap+with+his+daughters+by+his+sides.JPG





































http://elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/elite-daily-dwight-howard-lakers.jpg

[Fudge]

Pretty sure he's a top 8 playa doe.

[Doranku]

You're so butthurt and sensitive :lol:

Are you still upset that I called you a f@ggot?

[oh the horror]

:confusedshrug: That's how great he is. The hardware will stack up, but greatness is what we were witnessing.



Bro that was media hype to sell you Nikes. I've seen enough players to know to wait for their careers to be in their twilight or over to discuss their "greatness"


Lebron could fall off tomorrow with an injury. And he'd be that player we'd all be talking about in terms of what ifs

[DFish24]

Somebody add this to the stupidest things said on ISH thread.

[Heavincent]

Denial.

He's clearly a top 10 player ever. People who say otherwise are delusional.

[outbreak]

:confusedshrug: That's how great he is. The hardware will stack up, but greatness is what we were witnessing.
how can you claim a player is a great when a VERY large portion of the public disagrees and bags the hell out of them. Never understood that. Other greats may have been disliked and hated but people respected them and acknowledged they were talented on a completely different level

[TonyMontana]

The people that think Kobe is top 5 or whatever bullshit you see them post are the same dudes that run around and say Kobe is still the best or second best player in the NBA TODAY. Simply uneducated morons that buy into the hype machine that perimeter players like Kobe carry with them.

Say your building a team from scratch, no way Kobe would have more success than any of those ten guys you listed with the same roles. High volume perimeter scorers are the easiest players to replace in basketball.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

how can you claim a player is a great when a VERY large portion of the public disagrees and bags the hell out of them. Never understood that. Other greats may have been disliked and hated but people respected them and acknowledged they were talented on a completely different level

Wait, people don't acknowledge that Lebron is talented?

[Kews1]

Denial.

He's clearly a top 10 player ever. People who say otherwise are delusional.

He's about 11, no case whatsoever for any higher. All the other players are indisputably better.

[longtime lurker]

Just what this board needed ANOTHER thread about Kobe :facepalm

How can fans not see he's easily the most entertaining player in the league. Even when he's not playing yall can't stop talking about him.

[Kews1]

Just what this board needed ANOTHER thread about Kobe :facepalm

How can fans not see he's easily the most entertaining player in the league. Even when he's not playing yall can't stop talking about him.

Not really interested in entertainment per se. More interested who the best players are.

[PrettyCool]

The people that think Kobe is top 5 or whatever bullshit you see them post are the same dudes that run around and say Kobe is still the best or second best player in the NBA TODAY. Simply uneducated morons that buy into the hype machine that perimeter players like Kobe carry with them.

Say your building a team from scratch, no way Kobe would have more success than any of those ten guys you listed with the same roles. High volume perimeter scorers are the easiest players to replace in basketball.

Kobe top 5 player

Tmac is a point forward.

[longtime lurker]

Not really interested in entertainment per se. More interested who the best players are.

You're attention whoring when you could have posted this in 3 of the other threads about Kobe. Just the fact that you have to make a new thread talking about him means you're entertained.

[poido123]

Why do you always put a colon after the smilie?

When I click on an emoticon, sometimes it doesn't work so I have to type in text...

Have no idea why that happens..

[Kews1]

You're attention whoring when you could have posted this in 3 of the other threads about Kobe. Just the fact that you have to make a new thread talking about him means you're entertained.

Difference is my thread is true, the threads that claim he is top 6 and whatever are clearly bullshit. Nobody can say with a straight face that Kobe is better than any of the ten guys i listed, everybody who is serious about basketball and is unbiased can tell you that those 10 are better.

[Legends66NBA7]

Did we really need another ranking concern of Bryant on an arbitrary list ? Going into this:


Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine

I don't care if you don't have the man Top 10, 20, 100, whatever... That's all up for debate.

But really... what kind of product of the media makes a 25/5/5 player on solid averages with his playoff production virtually identical, in a 17 year career ? That's not a product of the media, rather that's hard work. A product of the media is someone like Jeremy Lin.

As for marketing machines... they generally like to show flashy player because the NBA and sports in general are viewed by a young demographic, so it's obvious a host of player that play like Bryant will get more marketed more.

[lebeast666]

how can you claim a player is a great when a VERY large portion of the public disagrees and bags the hell out of them. Never understood that. Other greats may have been disliked and hated but people respected them and acknowledged they were talented on a completely different level

lolwut.

Yeah, this VERY large portion of people you speak of are all butthurt haters. You hating if you ain't acknowledging/respecting LeBron atm.

[Legends66NBA7]

When I click on an emoticon, sometimes it doesn't work so I have to type in text...

Have no idea why that happens..

It trolls keyboards in Australia.

[0000000]

It's arguable. Personally, I put him above Duncan and Hakeem. On par with LeBron.

Playing with Shaq hurt Kobe's legacy IMO. He was never the league's leading scorer during those years, never really had 50 or 60 point games while Shaq was there. Even 40 point games weren't common for him at the time. Yet he"ll never get enough credit for those rings that he's won without Shaq.

What he is IMO is the best scorer of all time along with Wilt.. Yet he only won 2 scoring titles.
From the age of 21, he was capable of scoring 50 pretty much when he felt like it. I remember most of his 50 point games at the time coming when Shaq didn't play.
From his age 21 to 25 without Shaq maybe he'd be ringless, who knows. Or maybe someone like Gasol would've come sooner...but one thing I'm pretty sure..he'd have at least 2 seasons averaging over 35 ppg, countless of 40 point games, 50 point games , 60 point games and even a few 70 point and 80 point games.

That's video game stuff we're talking about here.

He'd actually be much more appreciated today. Even with "only" two rings.
Because for a lot of people, his 3 rings don't equal one LeBron's or Duncan's ring.

Kobe's always been about winning, it's something people always dismiss about him and he sacrificed a lot individually to play with Shaq. His legacy to me is primarily as a scorer.
No one could take it to th distance quite like him IMO, no one had that 6th gear scoring wise, not even MJ IMO. For example, guys like LeBron and Durant can average 28..but they can't score 50. Kobe in his prime could do it easily every 4 games or so. His streaks of consecutive 40 point and 50 point games were insane. I kinda feel we've been robbed of a lot of videogame stuff because he spent such a long time playing with Shaq.
We got an 81 point game once and we all went apeshit...yet this guy also scored over 40, 50 and even 60 points on a few ocassions in only 3 quarters. People don't realize how ridiculous that is.

[poido123]

Are you still upset that I called you a f@ggot?

Are you still on suicide watch after I said that Kobe's announcement could be about him retiring? :lol: Then you proceed to attack me and get personal when I was not at all trolling and gave reasons to why I think he might retire?

You're a disgrace to good Lakers fans on here, you are what makes other fans cringe about Kobe and his fans...

[Kews1]

Did we really need another ranking concern of Bryant on an arbitrary list ? Going into this:



I don't care if you don't have the man Top 10, 20, 100, whatever... That's all up for debate.

But really... what kind of product of the media makes a 25/5/5 player on solid averages with his playoff production virtually identical, in a 17 year career ? That's not a product of the media, rather that's hard work. A product of the media is someone like Jeremy Lin.

As for marketing machines... they generally like to show flashy player because the NBA and sports in general are viewed by a young demographic, so it's obvious a host of player that play like Bryant will get more marketed more.

I didnt say he wasnt great. I said hes just not top 10. His probably around that 11 spot. But in terms of a product of the media his stature is just inflated more than it should be, for example things like the clutch thing. In the media hes blown up to be this mega clutch player..yet when people put the statistics together it was shown that that was in fact false yet a majority of people dont know that they take what the media says at fact which inflates his reputation and even though it is proven to be false the media still acts like its true. His averages yes are great, and yes he has staggering longevity, neither of those things make him better than the people i listed. The only people on that list who had as more media hype and support than Kobe was Michael Jordan but that was mainly warranted, mostly it wasnt just hype it was true.

[longtime lurker]

Difference is my thread is true, the threads that claim he is top 6 and whatever are clearly bullshit. Nobody can say with a straight face that Kobe is better than any of the ten guys i listed, everybody who is serious about basketball and is unbiased can tell you that those 10 are better.

Difference is you're a complete idiot and this thread is purely your opinion. There are 100's of people that know more about basketball than you do that say he's top 10 and you're just looking for attention.

[Kews1]

Difference is you're a complete idiot and this thread is purely your opinion. There are 100's of people that know more about basketball than you do that say he's top 10 and you're just looking for attention.

Difference is you're a complete idiot and thats purely your opinion. There are millions of people that know more about basketball than you do (including myself) that say he's not top 10 and you're just looking for attention.

[PrettyCool]

LOL @ Lebron James. Any unbiased fan would tell you that the 2011 finals disqualifies him from ever cracking the top 12.

[Kews1]

LOL @ Lebron James. Any unbiased fan would tell you that the 2011 finals disqualifies him from ever cracking the top 12.

Ridiculous. Any person with a brain would tell you that 4 MVP's guarantees him top 10 billing.

[K]

Denial.

He's clearly a top 10 player ever. People who say otherwise are delusional.

Since he's "clearly" a top 10 player ever, he has to be "clearly" better than at least one of these players in OP's list. So who is Kobe "clearly" better than?

Wilt > Kobe
Russell > Kobe
Jordan > Kobe
Magic > Kobe
Hakeem > Kobe
Duncan > Kobe
Bird > Kobe
Shaq > Kobe
Lebron > Kobe
Kareem > Kobe

IMO they are all better than Kobe.

If you agree with my opinion on them being better than Kobe or not, saying that he is "clearly" in the top 10 makes you the one who's delusional. He's not "clearly" better than any of them.

[0000000]

No player ever was more hated by the media than Kobr from 2004 to 2007. He was a villian like no one else was. He literally repressented evil during that time. Kobe forced the media to embrace him again. They had no choice.

First it was hype. Then hate. Then respect IMO.

[oh the horror]

[QUOTE=K

[Kews1]

No player ever was more hated by the media than Kobr from 2004 to 2007. He was a villian like no one else was. He literally repressented evil during that time. Kobe forced the media to embrace him again. They had no choice.

First it was hype. Then hate. Then respect IMO.

It's not like his reputation then was unwarranted and that dosnt change what the media representation was at all other times during his career. A 3 year window dosnt account for the other what 14-15 years of his career.

[TheBigVeto]

In no order these guys are all better.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine, circumstance, the accomplishments achieved primarily by others and the Lakers.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
Will rep.

[Legends66NBA7]

I didnt say he wasnt great. I said hes just not top 10. His probably around that 11 spot.

Noted and I'm not going to debate your list.

We good here. Top 11 is still fantastic and quiet honestly IMO, isn't that far off to the players in terms of impact that you do view above him.


But in terms of a product of the media his stature is just inflated more than it should be, for example things like the clutch thing. In the media hes blown up to be this mega clutch player..yet when people put the statistics together it was shown that that was in fact false yet a majority of people dont know that they take what the media says at fact which inflates his reputation and even though it is proven to be false the media still acts like its true. His averages yes are great, and yes he has staggering longevity, neither of those things make him better than the people i listed. The only people on that list who had as more media hype and support than Kobe was Michael Jordan but that was mainly warranted, mostly it wasnt just hype it was true.


I get all that, especially the clutch part. He's like around the range of Vince Carter with make and attempts (I'd say he was good in clutch this year, IMO). He does have the most makes regarding active players, so he's a very capable player. Most players on those lists in the clutch are the best players that can create their own shot, so I'm not really mad at the misses. I do get your point about the media, they will try act like he can't do any wrong and the facts show otherwise.

I just thought the part where's he media creation was more in relevance to someone like Lin who gets hype for all the wrong reasons. You are right that there are some myths concerning Bryant, though.

[longtime lurker]

Difference is you're a complete idiot and thats purely your opinion. There are millions of people that know more about basketball than you do (including myself) that say he's not top 10 and you're just looking for attention.

Wow well thought out and coherent argument. :rolleyes:

[Doranku]

Yes I'm still mad.

Ah yeah, that's what I figured.

[longtime lurker]

[QUOTE=K

[jstern]

The thing about Kobe being top ten is that a lot of people were not saying that after he won the 5th championship (except for his teenage fans who were convinced he was number one on the list.). Then after the Lakers got swept by Dallas, Kobe making many mistake, the Kobe stans went on a tear just casually saying, "Kobe, a top ten player of all time..." and constantly calling him that. And then it stuck, despite Kobe playing worse and worse compared to previous years, shooting 43%. So it's really interesting watching that.

[PrettyCool]

Ridiculous. Any person with a brain would tell you that 4 MVP's guarantees him top 10 billing.

How could a media driven award guarantee you top ten? And why is the magical number 4? Moses Malone had 3 and I don't see him on your list.

If you want to play that game. The only other player that has 2 FMVP's that isn't on your list is Willis Reed.

[0000000]

Personally, I don't see how Tim Duncan is as good as Kobe. He hasn't really been relevant since 2007. Even that year I'm not sure he was the best player on his team. Even his peak wasn't as strong IMO. Less rings. Pretty much less everything. Ditto for Hakeem.
And when it comes to such greatness, I don't buy the big man factor. Championship players are championship players.

LeBron over Kobe, even though he's less acomplished, I can understand. Although they're just equal to me.

[K]

At least you added in your opinion. But someone having a different opinion than you doesn't make them delusional even if they say clearly. It's still just an opinion.

He made the declaration that anyone who doesn't believe that Kobe is clearly in the top 10 delusional.

That's what I was responding to.

[Shepseskaf]

Personally, I don't see how Tim Duncan is as good as Kobe. He hasn't really been relevant since 2007. Even that year I'm not sure he was the best player on his team. Even his peak wasn't as strong IMO. Less rings. Pretty much less everything. Ditto for Hakeem.
:facepalm

[tazb]

He is currently (and most likely won't move up) at #10. LeBron will eventually pass him, maybe this year. But I agree, Kobe is overrated. To the people who call him top 5 all-time are either trolling or just joking.

[longtime lurker]

The thing about Kobe being top ten is that a lot of people were not saying that after he won the 5th championship (except for his teenage fans who were convinced he was number one on the list.). Then after the Lakers got swept by Dallas, Kobe making many mistake, the Kobe stans went on a tear just casually saying, "Kobe, a top ten player of all time..." and constantly calling him that. And then it stuck, despite Kobe playing worse and worse compared to previous years, shooting 43%. So it's really interesting watching that.

Well bolded is patently false considering even posters that hated Kobe said he's top 10 after his 2nd championship. And I don't think I've ever seen a single top 10 list from former players, analysts, commentators etc that didn't have Kobe on it. You know people that actually know the game and don't just talk out of their ass like 99% of people on this message board. The butthurt internet nerds are literally the only people that I've ever seen have Kobe outside of a top 10 list.

[Legends66NBA7]

The thing about Kobe being top ten is that a lot of people were not saying that after he won the 5th championship (except for his teenage fans who were convinced he was number one on the list.). Then after the Lakers got swept by Dallas, Kobe making many mistake, the Kobe stans went on a tear just casually saying, "Kobe, a top ten player of all time..." and constantly calling him that. And then it stuck, despite Kobe playing worse and worse compared to previous years, shooting 43%. So it's really interesting watching that.

Really ?

On this site, I've seen threads in the past on here and posters were starting to put Bryant in their Top 10 arbitrary lists after he won his 4th championship.

[0000000]

IMO, Kobe can go anywhere from like 5 to 15.

I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest he's more accomplished and better than Shaq, Magic, Bird and I also don't think it,s ridiculous to say that Jerry West, Big O or Moses are above Kobe.

There really isn't much separating those players achivement wise, peak years wise, stat wise etc.

Again, to me...Kobe's lrgacy is that of the best scorer the game's ever seen.

[K]

Noted and I'm not going to debate your list.

We good here. Top 11 is still fantastic and quiet honestly IMO, isn't that far off to the players in terms of impact that you do view above him.

:applause:

It's just a damn number in the end. What if we had a different numerical system where 12 numbers were before the number "10"? All of a sudden nobody would care and get upset anymore whether he's in it or not although he'd be in the same exact spot. People. :facepalm

[poido123]

Ah yeah, that's what I figured.

:rolleyes:

What are you 10 years old?

I do like alot of Laker fans, but you're not one of them.

[Legends66NBA7]

Well bolded is patently false considering even posters that hated Kobe said he's top 10 after his 2nd championship.

:wtf:

That's a typo, right ? I'm assuming you mean 4th... I've seen the 2007 ISH Top 100 list and Bryant's in the mid 20's. Hell, he was behind the likes of John Stockton, even though Bryant was better than him.

[jstern]

Well bolded is patently false considering even posters that hated Kobe said he's top 10 after his 2nd championship. And I don't think I've ever seen a single top 10 list from former players, analysts, commentators etc that didn't have Kobe on it. You know people that actually know the game and don't just talk out of their ass like 99% of people on this message board. The butthurt internet nerds are literally the only people that I've ever seen have Kobe outside of a top 10 list.

No, I remember the whole scenario very well because it was something that as it was going on I found very interesting.

Another interesting phenomenon was how Bird was always higher than Magic in everyone's top ten list, and then two years later it was the opposite, and people would say no way in hell was Bird better. People are stupid and just go with the flow.

[longtime lurker]

:wtf:

That's a typo, right ? I'm assuming you mean 4th... I've seen the 2007 ISH Top 100 list and Bryant's in the mid 20's. Hell, he was behind the likes of John Stockton, even though Bryant was better than him.

Lol yes is a typo. I actually meant 5th. Good catch

[poido123]

Well bolded is patently false considering even posters that hated Kobe said he's top 10 after his 2nd championship. And I don't think I've ever seen a single top 10 list from former players, analysts, commentators etc that didn't have Kobe on it. You know people that actually know the game and don't just talk out of their ass like 99% of people on this message board. The butthurt internet nerds are literally the only people that I've ever seen have Kobe outside of a top 10 list.

Look I'm not here to troll you or throw shit at Kobe.

But what makes you think he is in front of MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, and soon to be Lebron?

But let's be real here, all those players have the achievements and peaks higher than Kobe and some of them with less talent around them...

Longevity is nice and all, but its what you produce in the time you're on the court that matters...Racking up scoring accomplishments are a given if you play long enough and shoot enough shots?

[PrettyCool]

:rolleyes:

What are you 10 years old?

I do like alot of Laker fans, but you're not one of them.

You two boys need to shake your d1cks, and end this pissing contest.

[secund2nun]

In no order these guys are all better.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine, circumstance, the accomplishments achieved primarily by others and the Lakers. While he is indisputably among the greatest to play the game he isnt in the same league at these 10. TRUTH.

+1 The guy is the most overrated bball player ever. In his prime he was not even capable of winning a playoff series in a 3 season stretch without the best front court in the NBA.

Also Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Malone and others are better than Kobe.

[poido123]

You two boys need to shake your d1cks, and end this pissing contest.

...

I talked reason, with a guy incapable of reasoning...Instead of giving me a plausible suggestion of why I'm wrong, I get the "You Mad" or "F@ggot* thrown at me. Along with altering my posts and acting like a baby, because he is so sensitive about Kobe.

Do you really wanna know what all this is about?

Over a f*cken comment about Kobe retiring. That's it and he got mad...

[Legends66NBA7]

Lol yes is a typo. I actually meant 5th. Good catch

Okay, the 5th would definitely be the conformation on it, but look here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135638

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143850

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134994

Yeah, one of the OP's is a troll, but it was being said by his 4th or argued against too.

[longtime lurker]

Look I'm not here to troll you or throw shit at Kobe.

But what makes you think he is in front of MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, and soon to be Lebron?

But let's be real here, all those players have the achievements and peaks higher than Kobe and some of them with less talent around them...

Longevity is nice and all, but its what you produce in the time you're on the court that matters...Racking up scoring accomplishments are a given if you play long enough and shoot enough shots?

Kobe's career and resume speak for themselves. And you're talking about production on the court like he hasn't produced. Sorry but if it was anyone else except Kobe Bryant with the same career we wouldn't be having this discussion. Rings, stats, records, awards Kobe has it all. Like I said the only people that have Kobe out of the top 10 are nerds that rage on the internet. And why act like longevity is a bad thing? I don't see how it's held against him that he's still playing at a high level despite 17 seasons in the league.

[longtime lurker]

Okay, the 5th would definitely be the conformation on it, but look here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135638

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143850

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134994

Yeah, one of the OP's is a troll, but it was being said by his 4th or argued against too.

Well damn this should definitely shut some people up.

[TonyMontana]

Personally, I don't see how Tim Duncan is as good as Kobe. He hasn't really been relevant since 2007. Even that year I'm not sure he was the best player on his team. Even his peak wasn't as strong IMO. Less rings. Pretty much less everything. Ditto for Hakeem.
And when it comes to such greatness, I don't buy the big man factor. Championship players are championship players.

LeBron over Kobe, even though he's less acomplished, I can understand. Although they're just equal to me.

Tim Duncan is the best bigman in the NBA at age 37.

Lol @ Tim Duncan not relevant. If you want to talk about irrelevant look at Kobe who won 0 playoff games on a team most GMs picked to win the conference.

Unless your name is Michael, Larry, or LeBron, Bigmen are what wins games.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

Lakers record from 04-05 to 06-07

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Lakers record from 07-08

With a Gasol-Odom or Bynum-Odom frontcourt: 46-15(.754)
Without two elite bigs playing together: 11-10(.524)

Lakers record 09-10

With Kobe: 51-22 (.699)
Without Kobe*: 4-1(.800)

* = didn't include end of season games where LA rested everyone when homecourt was already locked up. Those 5 games were against Portland(.600+ team that hadn't lost at home to LA in 5 years), San Antonio(.600+), Utah(.600+ and on a 9 game win streak at the time), Golden state, and Boston(who made it to the Finals that year). The team had an .800 record in their toughest stretch of the year without Kobe and with Shannon Brown starting in his place.

Volume scoring is never as important as having bigs that dominate night in night out. Kobe was never the most valuable player on his own team during his entire career. Prime Shaq and the leagues most impressive frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics are the number one reasons why the Lakers won titles this decade.

[PrettyCool]

Tim Duncan is the best bigman in the NBA at age 37.

Lol @ Tim Duncan not relevant. If you want to talk about irrelevant look at Kobe who won 0 playoff games on a team most GMs picked to win the conference.

Unless your name is Michael, Larry, or LeBron, Bigmen are what wins games.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

Lakers record from 04-05 to 06-07

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Lakers record from 07-08

With a Gasol-Odom or Bynum-Odom frontcourt: 46-15(.754)
Without two elite bigs playing together: 11-10(.524)

Lakers record 09-10

With Kobe: 51-22 (.699)
Without Kobe*: 4-1(.800)

* = didn't include end of season games where LA rested everyone when homecourt was already locked up. Those 5 games were against Portland(.600+ team that hadn't lost at home to LA in 5 years), San Antonio(.600+), Utah(.600+ and on a 9 game win streak at the time), Golden state, and Boston(who made it to the Finals that year). The team had an .800 record in their toughest stretch of the year without Kobe and with Shannon Brown starting in his place.

Volume scoring is never as important as having bigs that dominate night in night out. Kobe was never the most valuable player on his own team during his entire career. Prime Shaq and the leagues most impressive frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics are the number one reasons why the Lakers won titles this decade.

Would you consider Bird and Lebron point forwards like Tmac?

[poido123]

Kobe's career and resume speak for themselves. And you're talking about production on the court like he hasn't produced. Sorry but if it was anyone else except Kobe Bryant with the same career we wouldn't be having this discussion. Rings, stats, records, awards Kobe has it all. Like I said the only people that have Kobe out of the top 10 are nerds that rage on the internet. And why act like longevity is a bad thing? I don't see how it's held against him that he's still playing at a high level despite 17 seasons in the league.

Kobe would be exactly like Malone and outside the Top 15 if all he had was stockton and role players around him his entire career...So those 5 championships are great and all, but he wasn't event the alpha on 3 of those championships. When you look at the top 10 GOAT(soon to include Lebron)all those players were the best player on their respective teams throughout their primes. Kobe wasn't.

Kobe has produced on the court, but has he done it at the rate that the top 10 that sit before him have done it? I'd say no. Does his longevity and accumulation awards that go with longevity, give an illusion to what he really was as a basketball player compared to others? I'd say yes.

I think he's a great player but slightly below the top 10, I have him at 11 by the end of this playoffs...

[TheBigVeto]

Would you consider Bird and Lebron point forwards like Tmac?

No. Bird and Lebron both made it to the NBA finals. TMac didn't.

[Round Mound]

Charles Barkley > Kobe

Anyone Who Watched Both Play In Their Prime Knows This.

[Soundwave]

Tim Duncan is the best bigman in the NBA at age 37.

Lol @ Tim Duncan not relevant. If you want to talk about irrelevant look at Kobe who won 0 playoff games on a team most GMs picked to win the conference.

Unless your name is Michael, Larry, or LeBron, Bigmen are what wins games.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

Lakers record from 04-05 to 06-07

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Lakers record from 07-08

With a Gasol-Odom or Bynum-Odom frontcourt: 46-15(.754)
Without two elite bigs playing together: 11-10(.524)

Lakers record 09-10

With Kobe: 51-22 (.699)
Without Kobe*: 4-1(.800)

* = didn't include end of season games where LA rested everyone when homecourt was already locked up. Those 5 games were against Portland(.600+ team that hadn't lost at home to LA in 5 years), San Antonio(.600+), Utah(.600+ and on a 9 game win streak at the time), Golden state, and Boston(who made it to the Finals that year). The team had an .800 record in their toughest stretch of the year without Kobe and with Shannon Brown starting in his place.

Volume scoring is never as important as having bigs that dominate night in night out. Kobe was never the most valuable player on his own team during his entire career. Prime Shaq and the leagues most impressive frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics are the number one reasons why the Lakers won titles this decade.

Well I'll say this. You've done your research, that's for damn sure.

I agree a case can be made for Duncan and Hakeem > Kobe, and probably with LeBron it's just a matter of time now.

[longtime lurker]

Kobe would be exactly like Malone and outside the Top 15 if all he had was stockton and role players around him his entire career...So those 5 championships are great and all, but he wasn't event the alpha on 3 of those championships. When you look at the top 10 GOAT(soon to include Lebron)all those players were the best player on their respective teams throughout their primes. Kobe wasn't.

Kobe has produced on the court, but has he done it at the rate that the top 10 that sit before him have done it? I'd say no. Does his longevity and accumulation awards that go with longevity, give an illusion to what he really was as a basketball player compared to others? I'd say yes.

I think he's a great player but slightly below the top 10, I have him at 11 by the end of this playoffs...

Take away Kobe's career without Shaq and he's already done more than Malone has ever done. Malone played with a top 5 PG to ever play the game so I don't exactly see where I should feel sorry for him. And I don't see how Kobe wasn't the best player on his team throughout his prime considering most people believe his prime was generally from 2003 on wards unless you want to argue Pau Gasol was the best player and well that would just be a horrible argument. Look up the links Legend66 put up, he was generally considered top 10 after the 4th ring and this is by ISH which is pretty much all Kobe haters. Every sports analysts, writer, former players, legends, coach etc have him in the top 10 and these are all people who have forgotten more about basketball than ISH knows. After all that evidence I don't if you still don't think he's top 10 I don't know how much more I can say, but its good to be back to being nemesis again :cheers:

[poido123]

Well I'll say this. You've done your research, that's for damn sure.

I agree a case can be made for Duncan and Hakeem > Kobe, and probably with LeBron it's just a matter of time now.

Everybody knows TonyMontana copy pastes from google anything that is remotely insightful :lol:

Nevertheless, an interesting read...

[Legends66NBA7]

When you look at the top 10 GOAT(soon to include Lebron)all those players were the best player on their respective teams throughout their primes. Kobe wasn't.

Actually, same thing can be said about Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar too, even though they were on the same team for a while. During the end of his career, Kareem is 3rd behind James Worthy too. Bill Russell right away and during the end of his career... I don't believe he was either, but he was definitely the most important piece to make the 60's Celtics team "click".

[Sakkreth]

Well tbh all those players are better, but Kobe has more achievments than most of them.

[poido123]

Take away Kobe's career without Shaq and he's already done more than Malone has ever done. Malone played with a top 5 PG to ever play the game so I don't exactly see where I should feel sorry for him. And I don't see how Kobe wasn't the best player on his team throughout his prime considering most people believe his prime was generally from 2003 on wards unless you want to argue Pau Gasol was the best player and well that would just be a horrible argument. Look up the links Legend66 put up, he was generally considered top 10 after the 4th ring and this is by ISH which is pretty much all Kobe haters. Every sports analysts, writer, former players, legends, coach etc have him in the top 10 and these are all people who have forgotten more about basketball than ISH knows. After all that evidence I don't if you still don't think he's top 10 I don't know how much more I can say, but its good to be back to being nemesis again :cheers:

:cheers:

Well, you know nothing ruffles my feathers more than Kobe overrating threads :lol:

While I disagree personally that he is in the top 10, I am happy to push him up to about 9 for argument sake. He has an argument over Duncan and of course Lebron(since Lebron hasn't completed career yet).

But above 9 and I'd wonder if you had seen 80's or 90's basketball...I have Hakeem, Bird and Magic at 6, 7 , 8. I don't see how Kobe had a greater peak or impact than those players, but of course only my opinion.

[pauk]

To be honest that whole top 10 thing is fun to talk about but in reality there is no such thing... even the GOAT thing... its just way to combative, differently opinionated... its impossible to factually & accurately in order rank players like that.... there is just to many criterias you can go after or have in priority, stats, rings, mvps, longevity, talent/skill etc... any top 10 or top 100 or top 500 you ever saw or see is just opinions based on those criterias, with a hint of a bit bias.... all of us have different top 10 lists, often very small difference, but still...

[ThaRegul8r]

This post still applies:


If that's your opinion, that's your opinion. I don't get the point of threads like this. Is it just to find out "how many people agree with me" or what?

[Trollsmasher]

I currently have him on #10. If LeBron wins this year, Kobe drops to #11. Just nothing to do about it. He is not going to have any case over the guys above him.

[Nashty]

Tim Duncan is the best bigman in the NBA at age 37.

Lol @ Tim Duncan not relevant. If you want to talk about irrelevant look at Kobe who won 0 playoff games on a team most GMs picked to win the conference.

Unless your name is Michael, Larry, or LeBron, Bigmen are what wins games.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

Lakers record from 04-05 to 06-07

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

Lakers record from 07-08

With a Gasol-Odom or Bynum-Odom frontcourt: 46-15(.754)
Without two elite bigs playing together: 11-10(.524)

Lakers record 09-10

With Kobe: 51-22 (.699)
Without Kobe*: 4-1(.800)

* = didn't include end of season games where LA rested everyone when homecourt was already locked up. Those 5 games were against Portland(.600+ team that hadn't lost at home to LA in 5 years), San Antonio(.600+), Utah(.600+ and on a 9 game win streak at the time), Golden state, and Boston(who made it to the Finals that year). The team had an .800 record in their toughest stretch of the year without Kobe and with Shannon Brown starting in his place.

Volume scoring is never as important as having bigs that dominate night in night out. Kobe was never the most valuable player on his own team during his entire career. Prime Shaq and the leagues most impressive frontcourt trio since the 80s Celtics are the number one reasons why the Lakers won titles this decade.

Was about to write this :cheers:

Kobe is the most overrated player in the history of the sports. He had no impact on his team when Shaq was there, team actually played better without him, they would easily won with any other solid SG. He had some impact in those 3 seasons when they sucked, but Odom had much bigger impact. And when Gasol came he also had much bigger impact then Kobe. So the guy was basically carried to 5 rings by his bigs, and people put him in TOP 10, or even TOP 5 :eek:

[Rose'sACL]

Everybody knows TonyMontana copy pastes from google anything that is remotely insightful :lol:

Nevertheless, an interesting read...
i don't like tony montana but i have to correct you that googling is researching if you give the right sources like nba.com or basketball-reference.com.

[fpliii]

What makes Bill Russell a better ball player than Kobe?

:facepalm

[Ne 1]

He cemented himself in the the top 10 in '09, he was borderline before then. There's no consistent criteria that doesn't place Bryant at least in the top 8-10.

He's top 5 at best and at worst 10. Anyone who has him lower than 10 has no clue on how to evaluate a players legacy (looking at peak play, overall career stats, awards/records/accomplishments, championships, longevity, impact on teams during prime years, amongst other things.)

[DMAVS41]

He cemented himself in the the top 10 in '09, he was borderline before then. There's no consistent criteria that doesn't place Bryant at least in the top 8-10.

He's top 5 at best and at worst 10. Anyone who has him lower than 10 has no clue on how to evaluate a players legacy (looking at peak play, overall career stats, awards/records/accomplishments, championships, longevity, impact on teams during prime years, amongst other things.)

I don't see the case for top 5 at all, but he's definitely top 10 for now.

Although I think it is clear he is 10th...certainly arguments can be made about Hakeem, Bird, Lebron, Shaq...etc. But I still think Kobe will ultimately far short of those guys historically unless he does something crazy after coming back...which I wouldn't put past him. But for now...he's looking to end up in that 11 range as a player when it is all said and done...

But I just don't see the arguments for Kobe over;

MJ, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan...

[LJJ]

Of course not. He was the best player in the league maybe one season, at the very most generous give him 2 seasons where he was the best player in the L by a close margin. His championships with good teams are nice, but not enough to push him over someone like Moses Malone, who was clearly a more dominant player.

[chosen_wun]

You CAN'T put Kobe over players who revolutionized the game. He might have more longevity than guys like Bird, Shaq, Duncan but he can nevet be GREATER.

Technically Its absolutely impossible for Kobe to move above 10, but to be generous I give him the 9th spot above Hakeem... I really shouldnt though because The Dream revolutionized his position.

[stanlove1111]

In no order these guys are all better.

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

Kobe Bryant is a product of the media, the NBA marketing machine, circumstance, the accomplishments achieved primarily by others and the Lakers. While he is indisputably among the greatest to play the game he isnt in the same league at these 10. TRUTH.


Exactly 100 % right on..

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Of course not. He was the best player in the league maybe one season, at the very most generous give him 2 seasons where he was the best player in the L by a close margin. His championships with good teams are nice, but not enough to push him over someone like Moses Malone, who was clearly a more dominant player.

From '06 - '08 he was the best player. No argument. Other years he has a case when you factor in other things.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

To be honest that whole top 10 thing is fun to talk about but in reality there is no such thing... even the GOAT thing... its just way to combative, differently opinionated... its impossible to factually & accurately in order rank players like that.... there is just to many criterias you can go after or have in priority, stats, rings, mvps, longevity, talent/skill etc... any top 10 or top 100 or top 500 you ever saw or see is just opinions based on those criterias, with a hint of a bit bias.... all of us have different top 10 lists, often very small difference, but still...

:applause: At the end of the day it's all subjective.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Reworded your post to make your point more clear.

You sound so mad.
:roll:

[LJJ]

From '06 - '08 he was the best player. No argument. Other years he has a case when you factor in other things.

Please. Kobe was never the best player in the league to the point where there was no argument.

He won one MVP award. Most people think he didn't even deserve it that season, but overall one MVP award for Kobe during his career sounds about right.

[ReturnofJPR]

Tired of these Kobe haters.

I used to be one, then I was reformed. MJ retired. Kobe being a wannabe didn't rub me the wrong way as he polished his game. Now I respect the man and his game.

Kobe is absolutely a Top 10 player.

As is Tim Duncan. Neither can be debated.

I wouldn't put LeBum in there. Not yet. He's 1 for 3 in NBA Finals. Loved watching Dirk own his azz. Plus, he couldn't win until he teamed up with another star and ditched his team. he will always have egg on his face from his decision.

People have to respect Kobe because he still links a little bit of 90's basketball with the new punk soft NBA league that we are in now. You have to admire Bryant's warrior spirit.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Tired of these Kobe haters.

I used to be one, then I was reformed. MJ retired. Kobe being a wannabe didn't rub me the wrong way as he polished his game. Now I respect the man and his game.

Kobe is absolutely a Top 10 player.

As is Tim Duncan. Neither can be debated.

I wouldn't put LeBum in there. Not yet. He's 1 for 3 in NBA Finals. Loved watching Dirk own his azz. Plus, he couldn't win until he teamed up with another star and ditched his team. he will always have egg on his face from his decision.

People have to respect Kobe because he still links a little bit of 90's basketball with the new punk soft NBA league that we are in now. You have to admire Bryant's warrior spirit.

I never understood why Bulls fans hate Lebron so much. I know he has owned your team his whole career, but still.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Please. Kobe was never the best player in the league to the point where there was no argument.

He won one MVP award. Most people think he didn't even deserve it that season, but overall one MVP award for Kobe during his career sounds about right.

Like I said, it's all subjective but in 2006 and 2007 Kobe was the best player in the league and there was no real argument. 2008 was the same for me although more may disagree.

And Kobe should've won MVP in 2006. It would have been a stretch since he didn't win 50 games but what he did individually and with that cast was amazing.

[Vienceslav]

Every ****ing time I'm mad about this, every time.:lol

[chosen_wun]

Kobe is no longer a threat to Jordan's legacy, but LeBron could be

I can profile Bulls fans like a bureau investigative agent. Its not hard.

[ReturnofJPR]

I never understood why Bulls fans hate Lebron so much. I know he has owned your team his whole career, but still.

He's fugazy. He disrespects the game by dancing on the sidelines. He's a total wannabe and a 10 year old trapped in a 40 year old balding man's body. He makes a mockery of the game, especially in his Cleveland days. He wants to be mentioned amongst the all time greats but he has no respect for anyone other than himself and doesn't respect any team other than his own.

He never earned anything. The league was so desperate, really the media, that they just anointed him without him earning anything. He never earned where he is today. He didn't earn in it like McHale, Magic, Bird, and the real greats...he's a silverspoon superstar.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

He's fugazy. He disrespects the game by dancing on the sidelines. He's a total wannabe and a 10 year old trapped in a 40 year old balding man's body. He makes a mockery of the game, especially in his Cleveland days. He wants to be mentioned amongst the all time greats but he has no respect for anyone other than himself and doesn't respect any team other than his own.

He never earned anything. The league was so desperate, really the media, that they just anointed him without him earning anything. He never earned where he is today. He didn't earn in it like McHale, Magic, Bird, and the real greats...

That was pretty funny :lol . It was a long time ago though. Most of what you're saying is the media's fault so you should be blaming ESPN, etc.

[ReturnofJPR]

That was pretty funny :lol . It was a long time ago though. Most of what you're saying is the media's fault so you should be blaming ESPN, etc.

But...it wasn't the media that created "The Decision."

See his ego?!

He manipulates the media to inflate his ego.

He is a clown.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

But...it wasn't the media that created "The Decision."

See his ego?!

He manipulates the media to inflate his ego.

He is a clown.

He does have a huge ego, but let's be honest, most players in the league are like that. Not everyone can be like Duncan. He is the best right now though, so the ego comes with the territory.

[stanlove1111]

Tired of these Kobe haters.

I.

I wouldn't put LeBum in there. Not yet. He's 1 for 3 in NBA Finals. Loved watching Dirk own his azz. Plus, he couldn't win until he teamed up with another star and ditched his team. he will always have egg on his face from his decision.

.


Don't you ever get tired of idiot simplistic arguments like this? And that goes for most of the people on the board..

YOu are actually counting it against him that he took an awful Cavs team to the finals and lost. You don't know how dumb that sounds? The win a title or get no credit stuff on here is really old..

Lebron proved he was one of the best ever just by what he did with the Cavs. To challenge year after year with that awful team is just as impressive if not more so then winning a title surrounded by great teams like Kobe was, or like Magic or Bird were.


Its pretty simple..Lebron if he wants to be considered the grestest ever has underachieved once in his career. His first year with the Heat he should have won a title..At no other time during his carrer did he fail to carry his team as far as he should have ever if he was the greatest player ever. To translate for you..No other player in history is winning with the Cavs..

[stanlove1111]

Like I said, it's all subjective but in 2006 and 2007 Kobe was the best player in the league and there was no real argument. 2008 was the same for me although more may disagree.

And Kobe should've won MVP in 2006. It would have been a stretch since he didn't win 50 games but what he did individually and with that cast was amazing.

Leading a weak team to 47 wins is amazing? Really? :lol

[ReturnofJPR]

Don't you ever get tired of idiot simplistic arguments like this? And that goes for most of the people on the board..

YOu are actually counting it against him that he took an awful Cavs team to the finals and lost. You don't know how dumb that sounds? The win a title or get no credit stuff on here is really old..

Lebron proved he was one of the best ever just by what he did with the Cavs. To challenge year after year with that awful team is just as impressive if not more so then winning a title surrounded by great teams like Kobe was, or like Magic or Bird were.


Its pretty simple..Lebron if he wants to be considered the grestest ever has underachieved once in his career. His first year with the Heat he should have won a title..At no other time during his carrer did he fail to carry his team as far as he should have ever if he was the greatest player ever. To translate for you..No other player in history is winning with the Cavs..

So what? Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson did the same thing. Lots of players carry their teams to the Finals. What makes the all time greats? Leading them there and winning! Just like Charlie Sheen said. That's what Jordan did. That's what Magic did. That's what Bird did. Those who fail on their own are remembered as failed leaders. That's why Bron had to jump ship and team up with 2 other stars in order to win a title and it has an *

[dh144498]

I never understood why Bulls fans hate Lebron so much. I know he has owned your team his whole career, but still.

i never understand why lebron stans can't be objective for just 1 second. All they do is lick his nuts.

:coleman:

[r15mohd]

So what? Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson did the same thing. Lots of players carry their teams to the Finals. What makes the all time greats? Leading them there and winning! Just like Charlie Sheen said. That's what Jordan did. That's what Magic did. That's what Bird did. Those who fail on their own are remembered as failed leaders. That's why Bron had to jump ship and team up with 2 other stars in order to win a title and it has an *


difference between those players and Lebron is he's dominated the league continuously, all while making the players around him better...and is still continuing to do so. not to mention, a lot of his achievements was prior to him peaking this season (which is considered his PRIME tus far). NONE of that can be said about any other player who's just lead their team to a finals. as he did with the Cavs.

as far as the second part of your rant..."leading them there and winning!" the 2011-2012 season proved this by winning the title with Miami, he continued dominance from the beginning to the end of that season, and into the Olympic games as well. there was no let down, and he CARRIED them...hobbled Bosh and hobbled Wade as well. to refute that is asinine lol

[ReturnofJPR]

difference between those players and Lebron is he's dominated the league continuously, all while making the players around him better...and is still continuing to do so. not to mention, a lot of his achievements was prior to him peaking this season (which is considered his PRIME tus far). NONE of that can be said about any other player who's just lead their team to a finals. as he did with the Cavs.

as far as the second part of your rant..."leading them there and winning!" the 2011-2012 season proved this by winning the title with Miami, he continued dominance from the beginning to the end of that season, and into the Olympic games as well. there was no let down, and he CARRIED them...hobbled Bosh and hobbled Wade as well. to refute that is asinine lol

Iverson was far better at it than bron in Cleveland.

The title in Miami has an * and doesn't count like the others do.

Plus, LeBeyonce' needed SheWade and Bosh Spice to get it done.

Look at the #'s, plus Iverson dropped 50 points in the NBA Finals. Well, 48. He averaged over 31ppg. LeBum quit on his team!!!!

What an egotistical bum!

LeBronze will always be remembered for quitting on his team in the NBA Finals...

[dh144498]

difference between those players and Lebron is he's dominated the league continuously, all while making the players around him better...and is still continuing to do so. not to mention, a lot of his achievements was prior to him peaking this season (which is considered his PRIME tus far). NONE of that can be said about any other player who's just lead their team to a finals. as he did with the Cavs.

as far as the second part of your rant..."leading them there and winning!" the 2011-2012 season proved this by winning the title with Miami, he continued dominance from the beginning to the end of that season, and into the Olympic games as well. there was no let down, and he CARRIED them...hobbled Bosh and hobbled Wade as well. to refute that is asinine lol

lol these heat "fans" are ungrateful for their stacked team. They constantly call themselves heat "fans" while exposing themselves as just lebron stans. Give lebron all the credit while every one of his teammates are garbage and get carried by lebron.

Cleveland: best record in the league, overwhelming favorite to win it all, lebron's teammates suck.
Heat: joins two other superstars in their primes, heavy favorite to win it all, lebron's teammates are worse than those in Cleveland.

:biggums:

:coleman:

[r15mohd]

Iverson was far better at it than bron in Cleveland.

The title in Miami has an * and doesn't count like the others do.

Plus, LeBeyonce' needed SheWade and Bosh Spice to get it done.

Look at the #'s, plus Iverson dropped 50 points in the NBA Finals. Well, 48. He averaged over 31ppg. LeBum quit on his team!!!!

What an egotistical bum!

LeBronze will always be remembered for quitting on his team in the NBA Finals...

better at what...1 on 1 ball? cuz it sure wasn't team ball...iverson was great talent and a great individual player, but he was never a team player. he had a lucky run, but if you're great you do it continuously. he didn't and we all saw what happened to him because he refused to adapt to the betterment of the team/game

asterick rhetoric...guess the Heat were the only team to play in that season. :facepalm

more ppl rmbr lebron for last years dominance than they do for his 2011 finals failure...its the reality of winning continuously, your shortcomings become an afterthought. only ppl who keep using it are the one's hoping he fails, and to hope any players fails is just agenda driven hatred.

[r15mohd]

lol these heat "fans" are ungrateful for their stacked team. They constantly call themselves heat "fans" while exposing themselves as just lebron stans. Give lebron all the credit while every one of his teammates are garbage and get carried by lebron.

Cleveland: best record in the league, overwhelming favorite to win it all, lebron's teammates suck.
Heat: joins two other superstars in their primes, heavy favorite to win it all, lebron's teammates are worse than those in Cleveland.

:biggums:

:coleman:


who's ungrateful for the squad we have...they all got there together, but can you honestly say it was more because of Wade and Bosh that the Heat won the title last year? almost every playoffs there's one individual that stands out who "carries" the team...2012 was lebron, 2011 was dirk, etc.

to try and twist it that I feel they were garbage, typical response from a lebron hater...never indicated that. lebron outshined his peers lats season and this season as well, it's not hard to understand that.

[stanlove1111]

So what? Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson did the same thing. Lots of players carry their teams to the Finals. What makes the all time greats? Leading them there and winning! Just like Charlie Sheen said. That's what Jordan did. That's what Magic did. That's what Bird did. Those who fail on their own are remembered as failed leaders. That's why Bron had to jump ship and team up with 2 other stars in order to win a title and it has an *

Your argument is again simplistic here. I get tired of simplictic arguments. The title or bust things just gets ridiculous.. Then you being up Jordan,Magic, and Bird and don't bother looking at the circumstances they played in..Lebron at 22 years old with a God awful team around him led his team to the finals..Jordan,Bird, or Magic never did that..Not sure why you are even bringing that up.

Kid and Iverson didn't year after year make their weak teams into contenders especially at a young age.
That you give Lebron no credit for this because he couldn't win a title with that awful team is ridiculous and stupid simplistic.


Here is a great way to judge great players...See how many marks you can find against them if they were truly the greatest ever..So far in the league Lebron has one mark against him. Not winning the title the first year with the Heat is a mark against him.. Nothing else he ever did is a mark against him unless you want to try and make the stupid argument that he should have been winning titles with the Cavs despite the fact that any reasonable person knows nobody in history would have and very few if any would have carried them as far as he did.

Now Bird,Magic,Jabbar,and Wilt have many marks against them..Bird and Magic lost many playoffs series surrounded by great talent. And so on...Russell and Jordan are the only ones that have so few marks against them..

[ReturnofJPR]

http://img3.etsystatic.com/014/0/7961716/il_340x270.444875211_nork.jpg

LeBum and the cHEAT wear those because they don't matter like the other titles do. That's because, as you see with SheWade, teams and players break down over the course of an 82 game season.

Heck, the HEAT have played a 37-45 joke of an 8 seed in round 1 and Chicago's B-Team, no make that C-Team, in Round 2. At least the Pacers will body up the Heat. But in typical LeBum fashion, he already b*tched in the media taking offense to Pacer's Head Coach Vogel's standard non-offensive comments. Bron was able to put a quote in the paper about the Pacers "being physical with him." He did this to influence the refs.

The real great players don't b*tch and moan in the media like Bron does.

[r15mohd]

http://img3.etsystatic.com/014/0/7961716/il_340x270.444875211_nork.jpg

LeBum and the cHEAT wear those because they don't matter like the other titles do. That's because, as you see with SheWade, teams and players break down over the course of an 82 game season.

Heck, the HEAT have played a 37-45 joke of an 8 seed in round 1 and Chicago's B-Team, no make that C-Team, in Round 2. At least the Pacers will body up the Heat. But in typical LeBum fashion, he already b*tched in the media taking offense to Pacer's Head Coach Vogel's standard non-offensive comments. Bron was able to put a quote in the paper about the Pacers "being physical with him." He did this to influence the refs.

The real great players don't b*tch and moan in the media like Bron does.


MJ complained prefusely about the Pistons when they were being overly aggressive on him during those years, even Phil took his comments to the media...wtf are you talking about? :wtf:

[Solefade]

how can you claim a player is a great when a VERY large portion of the public disagrees and bags the hell out of them. Never understood that. Other greats may have been disliked and hated but people respected them and acknowledged they were talented on a completely different level


Because the public are stupid haters? Lol :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

He's fugazy. He disrespects the game by dancing on the sidelines. He's a total wannabe and a 10 year old trapped in a 40 year old balding man's body. He makes a mockery of the game, especially in his Cleveland days. He wants to be mentioned amongst the all time greats but he has no respect for anyone other than himself and doesn't respect any team other than his own.

He never earned anything. The league was so desperate, really the media, that they just anointed him without him earning anything. He never earned where he is today. He didn't earn in it like McHale, Magic, Bird, and the real greats...he's a silverspoon superstar.
So, your man MJ punches teammates, sends prostitutes to opposing players rooms the night before games, stays up all night drinking and gambling before playoff games, demands that Isiah Thomas not be on team USA...........

but it's LeBron who disrespects the game because he danced. :rolleyes:

#chicagofans

[ReturnofJPR]

So, your man MJ punches teammates, sends prostitutes to opposing players rooms the night before games, stays up all night drinking and gambling before playoff games, demands that Isiah Thomas not be on team USA...........

but it's LeBron who disrespects the game because he danced. :rolleyes:

#chicagofans

Did Chicago's very own Zeke Thomas shake Jordan and the Bulls' hands after Chicago knocked the Champs out of the playoffs? The Olympics are about sportsmanship.

Did Jordan win? Was he a successful leader? Did he appease the people? Did he make it possible so that the players after him could make $30 million a year? Exactly.

[guy]

So, your man MJ punches teammates, sends prostitutes to opposing players rooms the night before games, stays up all night drinking and gambling before playoff games, demands that Isiah Thomas not be on team USA...........

but it's LeBron who disrespects the game because he danced. :rolleyes:

#chicagofans

:oldlol: what????

[rmt]

Personally, I don't see how Tim Duncan is as good as Kobe. He hasn't really been relevant since 2007. Even that year I'm not sure he was the best player on his team. Even his peak wasn't as strong IMO. Less rings. Pretty much less everything. Ditto for Hakeem.
And when it comes to such greatness, I don't buy the big man factor. Championship players are championship players.

LeBron over Kobe, even though he's less acomplished, I can understand. Although they're just equal to me.

If Duncan hasn't been relevant this year, I guess that no center has been relevant either:

Duncan 17.8 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.6 blks on 50.2%FG
M Gasol 14.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 4 asst / 1.7 blks on 49.4%FG
D Howard 17.1 pts / 12.4 rebs / 1.4 asst / 2.4 blks on 57.8%FG
Noah 11.9 pts / 11.1 rebs / 4 asst / 21. blks on 48.1%FG


Duncan was 4th in MVP voting in 07. Parker was tied for 15th with Melo and Baron.
2007 Regular Season
Duncan 20 pts / 10.6 rebs / 3.4 asst / 2.4 blks on 54.6%FG
Parker 18.6 pts / 3.2 rebs / 5.5 asst on 52%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts / 11.5 rebs / 3.3 asst / 3.1 blks on 52%FG
Parker 20.8 pts / 3.4 rebs / 5.8 asst on 48%


2003 Duncan > any Kobe. Duncan led a 2nd year Parker (14.7 pts / 3.5 asst / 40.3%FG), a 2nd year SJax (12.8 pts / 2.7 asst / 41.4%FG) and a rookie Manu (9.4 pts / 2.9 asst / 38.6%FG) to a championship leading the team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks.

Duncan 4 rings as the man, 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs. Kobe 2 rings as the man, 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs.

IMO, anyone watching the game can tell that Duncan and Hakeem are more impactful than Kobe.

[dh144498]

If Duncan hasn't been relevant this year, I guess that no center has been relevant either:

Duncan 17.8 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.6 blks on 50.2%FG
M Gasol 14.1 pts / 7.8 rebs / 4 asst / 1.7 blks on 49.4%FG
D Howard 17.1 pts / 12.4 rebs / 1.4 asst / 2.4 blks on 57.8%FG
Noah 11.9 pts / 11.1 rebs / 4 asst / 21. blks on 48.1%FG


Duncan was 4th in MVP voting in 07. Parker was tied for 15th with Melo and Baron.
2007 Regular Season
Duncan 20 pts / 10.6 rebs / 3.4 asst / 2.4 blks on 54.6%FG
Parker 18.6 pts / 3.2 rebs / 5.5 asst on 52%FG

2007 Playoffs
Duncan 22.2 pts / 11.5 rebs / 3.3 asst / 3.1 blks on 52%FG
Parker 20.8 pts / 3.4 rebs / 5.8 asst on 48%


2003 Duncan > any Kobe. Duncan led a 2nd year Parker (14.7 pts / 3.5 asst / 40.3%FG), a 2nd year SJax (12.8 pts / 2.7 asst / 41.4%FG) and a rookie Manu (9.4 pts / 2.9 asst / 38.6%FG) to a championship leading the team in points, rebounds, assists and blocks.

Duncan 4 rings as the man, 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs. Kobe 2 rings as the man, 1 MVP, 2 FMVPs.

IMO, anyone watching the game can tell that Duncan and Hakeem are more impactful than Kobe.

debatable

[The-Legend-24]

What makes Bill Russell a better ball player than Kobe?
Nothing. Dude's better at defense that's about it. :oldlol: It's not that hard to play defense against short white guys. I'll be considered an elite defender if I played in the NBA back then. :oldlol:

[dh144498]

Nothing. Dude's better at defense that's about it. :oldlol: It's not that hard to play defense against short white guys. I'll be considered an elite defender if I played in the NBA back then. :oldlol:

in the words of silkkeTheShocker: "Bill Russell in today's league = high school janitor"
:lol
:bowdown:

[fpliii]

Nothing. Dude's better at defense that's about it. :oldlol: It's not that hard to play defense against short white guys. I'll be considered an elite defender if I played in the NBA back then. :oldlol:

Wow...I guess the summer of '69 must've been something then, considering it's the only thing separating Russell's and Kareem's careers.

[The Choken One]

Hakeem was the better player individually but legacy and GOAT-wise Kobe has him beat, and is above & comparable to 3 or 4 guys on that list.

Disagree all you want, but that's the truth little boy.

[jongib369]

Kobe is a borderline top 10. You can make legitimate casses for him on why he should be in it and why he shouldn't. But is he top 5? IMO no. But my opinion isn't worth shit

I wonder who Phil Jacksons top 10 in order is....He's seen them all basically. He's coached, played with/ against some amazing players

[jongib369]

Wow...I guess the summer of '69 must've been something then, considering it's the only thing separating Russell's and Kareem's careers.
Its simple but apparently complicated to others....

We know 2+2=4....But they keep insisting that it's potato

if they sucked as much as these people say Kareems averages would of been a lot lot higher. He would of gone out there and made everyone look like a child...But nope, he got held to career low FG%'s by 2 centers who were in there primes YEARS before he came into the league.. Those old injured farts Thurmond and Chamberlain played better D on a young dominating Kareem then Ewing and Hakeem did VS a fossil

[jongib369]

Kobe, LeBron, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem would all dominate back in the day while having to make a LOT of adjustments to their game.. Vice versa anyone?

[r15mohd]

Hakeem was the better player individually but legacy and GOAT-wise Kobe has him beat, and is above & comparable to 3 or 4 guys on that list.

Disagree all you want, but that's the truth little boy.

I think you got it backwards...Kobe is a great individual talent, but the impact Hakeem had on the game was huge!

all you have to do is refer back to Kobe paying Hakeem to teach him how to effectively post-up...that in itself shows the GOAT factor Hakeem holds over Kobe. Hakeem is an outright ongoing impact in the league since he step foot in the NBA, and it continues through today where he's educating the new guys who need help.

[Ne 1]

Hakeem is overrated by alot of people IMO. Seems like a lot of people look at him like 1994 and 1995 was his entire career. I rank Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq over him. He was great, but let's not act like its blasphemy to say Kobe is better and that it's not debatable.

You need more accolades than he had. 2 rings, and only a handful of All-NBA 1st team sections.

And that '94 ring doesn't carry quite as much weight for me, and it dosen't have much to do with the Mike playing baseball angle. (It carries same as other rings, which means it was tremendous, but I don't give it added meaning) People talk about how it's a rare championship for a superstar who didn't have another superstar co-runner. And I suppose it was.

Here's the thing: Somebody in '94 was going to qualify for that. Houston beat Portland, Phoenix, Utah and the Knicks. Sure Utah had Malone and Stockton, but the Rockets were still the better overall team, they won 53 games compared to the Rockets who won 58 games and won the division title over Utah and San Antonio (and if it goes by counting Hall of Famers, why dosen't Kobe get just as much credit for beating 3 first ballot Hall of Famers in 2010 with just one borderline HOF teammate?). Portland had Clyde, Phoenix had Barkley, the Spurs had Robinson. They also may have got lucky that 8th seeded Denver upset the team with the best record that year, the Sonics, who owned them in '93 and '96. And the East contenders? The Bulls had Scottie Pippen. And the Knicks? Patrick Ewing. If John Starks hit that shot in game 6 or didn't go 2-18 in Game 7, would Ewing somehow be considered greater, or his title more meaningful just because he wasn't surrounded by more talent? I doubt it. It would have been a great title, but I don't think we would have used it to create new classifications for stardom.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Isnt this obvious? He never was a top 10 GOAT, and never will be.
:rolleyes:

[PickernRoller]

Are you still upset that I called you a f@ggot?

Ohh you did? They always come back like mad dogs......they can only bark thou.

[Shih508]

borderline top 10 at best. OP has a point

[Round Mound]

Hakeem is overrated by alot of people IMO. Seems like a lot of people look at him like 1994 and 1995 was his entire career. I rank Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Shaq over him. He was great, but let's not act like its blasphemy to say Kobe is better and that it's not debatable.

You need more accolades than he had. 2 rings, and only a handful of All-NBA 1st team sections.

And that '94 ring doesn't carry quite as much weight for me, and it dosen't have much to do with the Mike playing baseball angle. (It carries same as other rings, which means it was tremendous, but I don't give it added meaning) People talk about how it's a rare championship for a superstar who didn't have another superstar co-runner. And I suppose it was.

Here's the thing: Somebody in '94 was going to qualify for that. Houston beat Portland, Phoenix, Utah and the Knicks. Sure Utah had Malone and Stockton, but the Rockets were still the better overall team, they won 53 games compared to the Rockets who won 58 games and won the division title over Utah and San Antonio (and if it goes by counting Hall of Famers, why dosen't Kobe get just as much credit for beating 3 first ballot Hall of Famers in 2010 with just one borderline HOF teammate?). Portland had Clyde, Phoenix had Barkley, the Spurs had Robinson. They also may have got lucky that 8th seeded Denver upset the team with the best record that year, the Sonics, who owned them in '93 and '96. And the East contenders? The Bulls had Scottie Pippen. And the Knicks? Patrick Ewing. If John Starks hit that shot in game 6 or didn't go 2-18 in Game 7, would Ewing somehow be considered greater, or his title more meaningful just because he wasn't surrounded by more talent? I doubt it. It would have been a great title, but I don't think we would have used it to create new classifications for stardom.

You are Forgeting that 2nd Year Hakeem Lead the Rockets to the NBA Finals in 1986 Over the Show Time Lakers. 80s Ball Was Way More Competitive than the 90s and Hakeem was a More Dominant and Efficient Player than Kobe Ever Was in his 2nd Year as a Pro.

[RRR3]

Ohh you did? They always come back like mad dogs......they can only bark thou.
It's hard to bite someone over the internet. Furthermore, "society frowns upon such an act", to quote Snoopy.

[LAZERUSS]

Your argument is again simplistic here. I get tired of simplictic arguments. The title or bust things just gets ridiculous.. Then you being up Jordan,Magic, and Bird and don't bother looking at the circumstances they played in..Lebron at 22 years old with a God awful team around him led his team to the finals..Jordan,Bird, or Magic never did that..Not sure why you are even bringing that up.

Kid and Iverson didn't year after year make their weak teams into contenders especially at a young age.
That you give Lebron no credit for this because he couldn't win a title with that awful team is ridiculous and stupid simplistic.


Here is a great way to judge great players...See how many marks you can find against them if they were truly the greatest ever..So far in the league Lebron has one mark against him. Not winning the title the first year with the Heat is a mark against him.. Nothing else he ever did is a mark against him unless you want to try and make the stupid argument that he should have been winning titles with the Cavs despite the fact that any reasonable person knows nobody in history would have and very few if any would have carried them as far as he did.

Now Bird,Magic,Jabbar,and Wilt have many marks against them..Bird and Magic lost many playoffs series surrounded by great talent. And so on...Russell and Jordan are the only ones that have so few marks against them..

Bird, Magic, and Kareem "lost" rings in the 80's battling teams like the stacked Sixers of the early 80's, and then the brutal Pistons of the late 80's. Oh, and in between, they faced each other times.

As for Wilt, in his first six seasons in the league, he was single-handedly carrying crappy rosters to four competitive series against the greatest Dynasty in professional team sports history, two of which were game seven losses by margins of 2, and 1 point. In his next four seasons, he took two of his team's to game seven losses by margins of 4 and 2 points, and another to a dominating title (and in the other series, he was the best player on the floor.) In those ten seasons, the Celtics enjoyed an edge in HOFers in every season, and were certainly deeper teams in every one of them, as well.

In his last four seasons, he went to three Finals, losing one in a game seven when his teammates completely crumbled, and losing in is very last season, in a series in which all four losses were decided in the last minute, ad against a Knick team that fielded six HOFers. And, in the one series in which his team did not make the Finals, an old Chamberlain, only a year removed from major knee surgery, and having the worst season of his career, battled a prime Kareem, in perhaps his greatest season, to at the very least, a statistical draw (and there were those that claimed he outplayed Kareem.) Oh, and in the other Finals, he led his team to a 69-13 record, which included a 33 game winning streak, and a dominating world championship, culminated by winning the FMVP.

The fact was, Chamberlain's teams were playing against stacked teams every season he was in the league. And in half of them, he was doing so with awful rosters, and in some, incompetent coaching.

[LAZERUSS]

Nothing. Dude's better at defense that's about it. :oldlol: It's not that hard to play defense against short white guys. I'll be considered an elite defender if I played in the NBA back then. :oldlol:

Yep, Russell faced short white guys like the 7-0 Mel Counts and 7-0 270 lb Tom Boerwinkle, both of whom would be listed at 7-1 today, as well as the 7-3 Swede Halbrook (as tall as Mark Eaton); and players like the 6-11 Nate Thurmond (who had a higher standing reach than Chamberlain), and the 6-11 Walt Bellamy, both of whom would be listed at over 7-0 today; and Wilt, who was between 7-1 and 7-2, and would be listed at 7-3 today. Not to mention all the other 6-10 and 6-11 players of that era, all of whom would be listed around 6-11 and 7-0 in today's game.

As for Russell's offense, he had games in the Finals of 30-38 and 30-40. He had two entire playoffs of over 20 ppg, and several series of 20+, including leading Boston in scoring in the '66 Finals, at 24 ppg. BTW, he also had a Finals in which he averaged 18 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot... .702 from the field...which is still a Finals record.

And for the record, Russell was not 6-9. He was a shade under 6-10, and in shoes, would be at least 6-11...which is Dwight Howard' listed height. And Russell not only had a 7-4 wingspan, but he had world class leaping ability. IMHO, he would have been capable of reaching higher heights than Howard.

[LAZERUSS]

Its simple but apparently complicated to others....

We know 2+2=4....But they keep insisting that it's potato

if they sucked as much as these people say Kareems averages would of been a lot lot higher. He would of gone out there and made everyone look like a child...But nope, he got held to career low FG%'s by 2 centers who were in there primes YEARS before he came into the league.. Those old injured farts Thurmond and Chamberlain played better D on a young dominating Kareem then Ewing and Hakeem did VS a fossil

:applause: :applause: :applause:

As great as KAJ was, how come he didn't smash Chamberlain's records against much of the same competition? How come a 28 year old Kareem, playing with a mediocre roster in the 75-76 season, and in which he had a chance to really prove his dominance, could only put up a 27.7 ppg, .529 season? Hell, Kareem had seasons in the 70's of shooting .539, .529, .518, and .513 (in the middle of the 70's BTW)...and yet, in the 80's he was routinely shooting .579 to .604?

And we know that Thurmond reduced KAJ to just pathetic FG%'s in their 40 h2h's, and with a high game of only 34 points. And an old Chamberlain, in his last season, held Kareem to .450 shooting in their six h2h games (and in their last ten h2h games, it was .434.) Overall, in their 28 h2h games, Kareem shot .464 against Wilt...which was nearly a hundred points less than his career FG% of .559. In the meantime, in 23 h2h games with Hakeem, a 37-41 year old Kareem shot .610, and in their first ten straight games, at ages 38-39, he averaged 32 ppg on .633 shooting against him, which included three 40+ games.

[OldSkoolball#52]

The irony here is the OP speaks of media hype then proceeds to put Lebron in the top ten of players to ever play meanwhile Lebrons career is far from being over and dude is 1-2 in the finals so far.


:facepalm

[tpols]

:facepalm
I know right?

Lebron is 1-3 in the Finals.