in reality. there is no legit argument for kobe bryant being out of the top 5

[kennethgriffin]

out of the other possible top 10 player candidates



who had a better career average than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more rings than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more finals mvps than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 1st team all nba's than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE


who had more 1st team all defense's than Kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE


who started more consecutive allstar games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE

who had more 80+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 60+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who had more 50+ point games than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James


who had a higher single season average than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who has more total points than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

who has a better international record than kobe?

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

NO ONE




the only thing kobe isnt top 5 all time in is total regular season mvps


he has 1 mvp. but out of the possible top 10 all time players. who also only has 1 mvp and it doesnt hurt them


Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James


and guess who else is outside of the top 10 with THREE mvps

MOSES MALONE.. who has more than or equal to

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James



so its obviously not the end all be all


what is clearly obvious is. kobe bean bryant has a legit case for a top 5 player ever

PERIOD

[dh144498]

stop making the same threads over and over again and people will stop trolling and admit to themselves that he's somewhere from 5-7.

[ripthekik]

I think you're doing this on purpose just to make people hate Kobe.

[TheMarkMadsen]

2nd most 80pt games is very impressive.

Most all nba first teams really stands out. To be able to be the best player at your position for that long is outstanding.

Top 6-7.

[kennethgriffin]

2nd most 80pt games is very impressive.

Most all nba first teams really stands out. To be able to be the best player at your position for that long is outstanding.

Top 6-7.


how is he top 6-7 if hes top 4-5 or better in every single catigory or system of ranking players?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All this kid posts about is Kobe. :roll:

[dh144498]

how is he top 6-7 if hes top 4-5 or better in every single catigory or system of ranking players?

there is no system. Right now, with everything he's done, he's 5-7.

[Kblaze8855]

There are at least 5 centers alone that justify ranking over Kobe. Well not at least 5. At least 3. Arguably 5. Considering that...no...he is not inarguably top 5.

Also...

I dont agree with your conclusion, we dont need another Kobe topic, and your case includes at least 6 totally laughable rankings nobody is gonna consider in these things....

But you did try. And your incorrect conclusion isnt offensive enough for me to do anything about the topic.

Enjoy it.

Im gonna go get a Mikes Hard blood orange(bitch drink? yes).

[Kiddlovesnets]

In reality, there is no legit argument for KennethGriffin being out of top 3 idiots posters on ISH.
:rolleyes:

[AlphaWolf24]

There are at least 5 centers alone that justify ranking over Kobe. Well not at least 5. At least 3. Arguably 5. Considering that...no...he is not inarguably top 5.

Also...

I dont agree with your conclusion, we dont need another Kobe topic, and your case includes at least 6 totally laughable rankings nobody is gonna consider in these things....

But you did try. And your incorrect conclusion isnt offensive enough for me to do anything about the topic.

Enjoy it.

Im gonna go get a Mikes Hard blood orange(bitch drink? yes).


there at least 3 centers that could be ranked over any player ever....

:confusedshrug:

B!tch drinks can F you up real quik if you do't watch out...

[JimmyMcAdocious]

in reality. there is no legit argument for op being out if the top 2 *******s

[kennethgriffin]

there is no system. Right now, with everything he's done, he's 5-7.


i know there is no 1 system. thats why i listed a collection of every major one. and kobe ranks top 5 in 95% of them

so kobe by any rational thought is a top 5 player ever. only by clear cut bias without evidence or favoring of centers is there an opinion against it


when in reality. its much much much harder to accomplish the things kobes done as a shooting guard. considering that big men don't rely on quickness or foot speed nearly as much. and they don't need to jump nearly as high. so its harder to have better longevity as a guard

[TheReal Kendall]

I swear there's a thread about Kobe being top 10 or 5 everyday of the week. Why the Kobe stans so insecure?:confusedshrug: Just face it Kobe is not that GREAT

[K Xerxes]

Who were better players:

Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
Wilt Chamberlain
Larry Bird
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Lebron James

(LeBron isn't higher than Kobe on the GOAT list right now because of lack of dominance longevity, but let's not kid ourselves... he'll be there soon).

[TheWalkman]

Half the fvcking things you listed are due to his longevity in the league. Also, riding Shaq to three rings doesn't get ya inside the top 10 bud.

[kennethgriffin]

I swear there's a thread about Kobe being top 10 or 5 everyday of the week. Why the Kobe stans so insecure?:confusedshrug: Just face it Kobe is not that GREAT


maybe its idiotic people like this that make these constant reminders with proof necessary

it took a while for people to admit the stars didn't revolve around the earth ( that was a flat surface )

all they needed was a constant reminder with proof

:lol

[AlphaWolf24]

Half the fvcking things you listed are due to his longevity in the league. Also, riding Shaq to three rings doesn't get ya inside the top 10 bud.


and?....

so Magic Johnson is better hen Michael Jordan because Magic won a Title in his first season?....

Jordan just had Longevity...over Magic.


that's your logic:lol

[Breezy]

You're really breaking new ground here. You are one of the leading Kobe Bryant apologists on the forum so I guess I shouldn't be shocked that you have nothing else to talk about but I just can't help but be astounded by your persistence. You are presenting an argument so I won't totally derail it by critiquing you. Here is my position.

What keeps Kobe out of the top 5 in my opinion is dominance. What I mean while he has maintained an extremely high level of play for a long time he has almost never been the clear cut best player in the league. The exceptions being 05-06 and 06-07 when I think most would agree that he was the best. I think this is reflected in his only having one MVP. Not to imply that mvp's are the proof that you're the best. Rather they are a reflection of your impact on the league. In the early part of his career Shaq and duncan were the best players and in the later part of his career Lebron has been on top.

Jordan - Best player in the league for most of his career.
Kareem - Best player in the league for at least a 7 year period.
Russell/Wilt - This is up for debate but they dominated the league at the same time in different ways
Magic/Bird- Same as above. Maybe not dominant over each other but clearly dominant over the rest.

Kobe never had that kind of dominance. he certainly deserves credit for his longevity but you need a different level of domination to cross over into the top 5.

I also gleefully point out to you that there is almost no way in hell Lebron doesn't end up higher than kobe all time.

[dh144498]

and?....

so Magic Johnson is better hen Michael Jordan because Magic won a Title in his first season?....

Jordan just had Longevity...over Magic.


that's your logic:lol


:roll:

:applause:

[kennethgriffin]

and?....

so Magic Johnson is better hen Michael Jordan because Magic won a Title in his first season?....

Jordan just had Longevity...over Magic.


that's your logic:lol


ya and i guess 4 of kareems rings dont count

2 of magic's rings dont count

1 of bird,shaq,duncans,wilts rings dont count

all of russells rings dont count

:lol

don't count without a finals mvp. even though kobe had a better playoff average than every single one of those guys mentiond had when they didn't win finals mvp

2000+2001+2002 playoffs = 25ppg, 5rpg, 5apg

2001 playoff average = 29/7/6 ( better than most playoff mvps in history)

[kennethgriffin]

You're really breaking new ground here. You are one of the leading Kobe Bryant apologists on the forum so I guess I shouldn't be shocked that you have nothing else to talk about but I just can't help but be astounded by your persistence. You are presenting an argument so I won't totally derail it by critiquing you. Here is my position.

What keeps Kobe out of the top 5 in my opinion is dominance. What I mean while he has maintained an extremely high level of play for a long time he has almost never been the clear cut best player in the league. The exceptions being 05-06 and 06-07 when I think most would agree that he was the best. I think this is reflected in his only having one MVP. Not to imply that mvp's are the proof that you're the best. Rather they are a reflection of your impact on the league. In the early part of his career Shaq and duncan were the best players and in the later part of his career Lebron has been on top.

Jordan - Best player in the league for most of his career.
Kareem - Best player in the league for at least a 7 year period.
Russell/Wilt - This is up for debate but they dominated the league at the same time in different ways
Magic/Bird- Same as above. Maybe not dominant over each other but clearly dominant over the rest.

Kobe never had that kind of dominance. he certainly deserves credit for his longevity but you need a different level of domination to cross over into the top 5.

I also gleefully point out to you that there is almost no way in hell Lebron doesn't end up higher than kobe all time.


dominance =

tnt/sporting news/sports illustrated/dime magazine PLAYER OF THE DECADE

dominance =

2 time 3PEAT FINALS

3PEAT CHAMP + BACK2BACK CHAMP

dominance =

highest scoring average of the last 25 years

dominance =

highest scoring game of the last 50 years

dominance =

carrying kwame/smush to game 7 vs the #1 team in the west

dominance =

outscoring the western confrence champion mavericks by himself

dominance =

the longest sustained prime in nba history

dominance =

1st team all nba in 17th season

dominance = carrying this league on his back after jordan left for a decade until lebron finally got his training wheels off



f*ck your logic bud. get with it. wake up. smell the coffee. slap into a slim jim

[AlphaWolf24]

You're really breaking new ground here. You are one of the leading Kobe Bryant apologists on the forum so I guess I shouldn't be shocked that you have nothing else to talk about but I just can't help but be astounded by your persistence. You are presenting an argument so I won't totally derail it by critiquing you. Here is my position.

What keeps Kobe out of the top 5 in my opinion is dominance. What I mean while he has maintained an extremely high level of play for a long time he has almost never been the clear cut best player in the league. The exceptions being 05-06 and 06-07 when I think most would agree that he was the best. I think this is reflected in his only having one MVP. Not to imply that mvp's are the proof that you're the best. Rather they are a reflection of your impact on the league. In the early part of his career Shaq and duncan were the best players and in the later part of his career Lebron has been on top.

Jordan - Best player in the league for most of his career.
Kareem - Best player in the league for at least a 7 year period.
Russell/Wilt - This is up for debate but they dominated the league at the same time in different ways
Magic/Bird- Same as above. Maybe not dominant over each other but clearly dominant over the rest.

Kobe never had that kind of dominance. he certainly deserves credit for his longevity but you need a different level of domination to cross over into the top 5.

I also gleefully point out to you that there is almost no way in hell Lebron doesn't end up higher than kobe all time.


You arguing over opinions...opinions of the majority...

- Jordan was probaly viewed as the best player in 1990 - 1993 and 96 - 98'...before that he as battlig Magic and Bird.....a couple years in between he was battling Barkley , Malone,Shaq.....

- Kobe was arguably the best player in 01' 03' 06 - 10'

- again....this is Majority opinion ....how can you say Kobe didn't dominate..Kobe finished top 5 MVP voting 11 seasons.....the same as MJ...

Tim Duncan 9 times....



(opens pocket) 2EZ.........next

[White Mamba]

in reality. there is no legit argument for kobe bryant being out of the top 2

[Deuce Bigalow]

All this kid posts about is Kobe. :roll:
But he's a Kobe fan though. He's supposed to post about Kobe. What's sad is when you got people who hate Kobe but all they post about is Kobe, gengiskhan for example :oldlol:

[Shepseskaf]

Another thread on Kobe? This is beyond pathetic, and verging into cult worship for some of the kids here.

I shudder to think of what some of you would do if Kobe ordered it.

[HeatFanSince88]

All of those awards are based on longevity. You think I give a **** about irrelevant years where Kobes team wins 0 playoff games and he just pads his scoring stats?

Kobe was never the best player in the league, nor was he ever the most valuable to his team. Anyone putting him top 15 is buying into the media garbage and overrating him.

If you want to argue media awards, MVP is the only one anyone cares about.

[Psycho]

Half the fvcking things you listed are due to his longevity in the league. Also, riding Shaq to three rings doesn't get ya inside the top 10 bud.

We're the killer bees bud!!!! We're the best bud!!!

[daj0264]

the reason he isnt is because their are atleast 5 players better than him

[kennethgriffin]

All of those awards are based on longevity. You think I give a **** about irrelevant years where Kobes team wins 0 playoff games and he just pads his scoring stats?

Kobe was never the best player in the league, nor was he ever the most valuable to his team. Anyone putting him top 15 is buying into the media garbage and overrating him.

If you want to argue media awards, MVP is the only one anyone cares about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74kOgbPQ7LI

[GrapeApe]

You arguing over opinions...opinions of the majority...

- Jordan was probaly viewed as the best player in 1990 - 1993 and 96 - 98'...before that he as battlig Magic and Bird.....a couple years in between he was battling Barkley , Malone,Shaq.....

- Kobe was arguably the best player in 01' 03' 06 - 10'

- again....this is Majority opinion ....how can you say Kobe didn't dominate..Kobe finished top 5 MVP voting 11 seasons.....the same as MJ...

Tim Duncan 9 times....



(opens pocket) 2EZ.........next

Kobe has been consistently great, but he was never overwhelmingly regarded as the best player in the game. In the discussion sure, but he was never the clear-cut, (near) concensus best.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe has been consistently great, but he was never overwhelmingly regarded as the best player in the game. In the discussion sure, but he was never the clear-cut, (near) concensus best.


enough of this f*ckin bull*SSSHHHIIT


if the era you dominate is full of top 10 players all time in their prime. then it should BOOST your status. not hurt it


the reason jordan was far and away the best player in the 90's is because the only other guy who is top 10 all time from the 90's was hakeem... and he will eventually be bumped by lebron within a year or 2


and when that happens.. guess what?

KOBE BRYANT
LEBRON JAMES
TIM DUNCAN
SHAQUILLE O'NEAL
ALL WILL BE TOP 10 PLAYERS ALL TIME
AND ITS THE ERA KOBE DOMINATED


all won mvps in the 2000's
all had their best numbers in the 2000's
and kobe had his biggest success in the 2000's
and kobe won all his player of the decade awards for the 2000's


lebron is the clear cut best player right now because

THERE ARE NO OTHER TOP 10 ALL TIME CANDIDATES IN THE LEAGUE RIGHT NOW

NO ONE...

durant/paul/howard/melo aint sh****T all time compared to kobe/duncan/shaq/lebron

thats why lebron has clear cut best player years

no competition

kobes a year away from retirement. duncans not even close to his prime anymore either


infact. lebrons biggest competition is a 38 year old tim duncan ... which is quite pathetic



so don't bash kobe because he always had legendary competition while winning....


give him his god damn credit

[kennethgriffin]

2001 - kobe/shaq had to argue for best player
2002 - kobe/shaq again
2003 - kobe/duncan
2004 - kobe/duncan
2005 - injured half the year. but when healthy he was top 2-3
2006 - kobe was clear cut best player
2007 - kobe was again clear cut best player
2008 - kobe was actually given mvp
2009 - kobe/lebron battled for best player
2010 - kobe/lebron battled for best player again


so during the entire decade. kobe was either battling a top 10 legend for best player rights. or was clear cut best player


this is why theres never a dramatic drop off like the weak 90's or weak 2010's era


because the 2000's was a much much better era for top 10 legends

[longtime lurker]

http://i.imgur.com/lEQ5PBt.gif

[poido123]

..

[RR#9]

Why do you care so much about this kind of stuff?

[Asukal]

2001 - kobe/shaq had to argue for best player
2002 - kobe/shaq again
2003 - kobe/duncan
2004 - kobe/duncan
2005 - injured half the year. but when healthy he was top 2-3
2006 - kobe was clear cut best player
2007 - kobe was again clear cut best player
2008 - kobe was actually given mvp
2009 - kobe/lebron battled for best player
2010 - kobe/lebron battled for best player again


so during the entire decade. kobe was either battling a top 10 legend for best player rights. or was clear cut best player


this is why theres never a dramatic drop off like the weak 90's or weak 2010's era


because the 2000's was a much much better era for top 10 legends

:biggums:

hahahahaha!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:lol :lol :lol

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq isn't top 5 yet you argue that Kobe is? lololololol! :hammerhead:

[justin43]

Give up, op. While you may have some facts with you, this thread will never be respected due to the large amount of troll kobe threads by stans and haters made throughout the years. Note I don't think you are trolling yet.

[kennethgriffin]

:biggums:

hahahahaha!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

:lol :lol :lol

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Shaq isn't top 5 yet you argue that Kobe is? lololololol! :hammerhead:


the argument isnt that shaq is top 5

the argument i'm stating is that no other guy in the top 10 all time faced as much top 10 all time competition as kobe


kobe is top 5 all time based on his career



i use this point to respond to the person saying kobes rarely been the clear cut best player. its because the 2000's era is full of legendary players that had their primes during that decade


look at the top 10 players ever ( this is based on lebrons eventual climb with a few more years )


Michael jordan - PRIME = 90's
Kareem Abdul Jabbar - PRIME = 70's
magic johnson - PRIME = 80's
larry bird - PRIME = 80's
Wilt Chamberlain - PRIME = 60's
Bill Russell - PRIME = 60's
Kobe Bryant - PRIME = 2000's
shaquille o'neal - PRIME = 2000's
tim duncan - PRIME = 2000's
lebron james - PRIME = 2000's


this is why kobe deserves more credit than anything for his dominance of the 2000's era. he won multiple player of the decade awards. had the most success.. in an era that had 4 top 10 all time players

[KG215]

I swear there's a thread about Kobe being top 10 or 5 everyday of the week. Why the Kobe stans so insecure?:confusedshrug: Just face it Kobe is not that GREAT
I'm pretty sure he started almost this exact same thread a couple of days ago.

It started last summer, or the summer before, where he started off saying Kobe was easily unarguably top 7 (or was it 8?) all-time. Then, by the end of the summer, he was saying anyone that didn't have Kobe in their top 6 all-time were wrong, haters, stupid, etc. And keep in mind, this all started in the summer after the playoffs, so Kobe hadn't played anymore games. In a matter of a couple of months, and zero games played, he had moved Kobe up a couple of spots and was calling anyone else a hater or dumb if they didn't agree.

[ThaRegul8r]

I still don't see the opinion of these unsolicited opinions. So that's what you believe.

Er... okay? Want a cookie?

It serves no point. People are going to disagree with the OP, the OP is going to argue it, it accomplishes nothing constructive.

[K Xerxes]

the argument isnt that shaq is top 5

the argument i'm stating is that no other guy in the top 10 all time faced as much top 10 all time competition as kobe


kobe is top 5 all time based on his career



i use this point to respond to the person saying kobes rarely been the clear cut best player. its because the 2000's era is full of legendary players that had their primes during that decade


look at the top 10 players ever ( this is based on lebrons eventual climb with a few more years )


Michael jordan - PRIME = 90's
Kareem Abdul Jabbar - PRIME = 70's
magic johnson - PRIME = 80's
larry bird - PRIME = 80's
Wilt Chamberlain - PRIME = 60's
Bill Russell - PRIME = 60's
Kobe Bryant - PRIME = 2000's
shaquille o'neal - PRIME = 2000's
tim duncan - PRIME = 2000's
lebron james - PRIME = 2000's


this is why kobe deserves more credit than anything for his dominance of the 2000's era. he won multiple player of the decade awards. had the most success.. in an era that had 4 top 10 all time players

This is a complete oversimplification and frankly just bs. Shaq's prime was in late 90s/early 00s where Kobe was clearly second fiddle to Shaq's dominance (peaked in 00). Duncan's prime was early to mid 00s (3 years older than Kobe and peaked in 03). Kobe's prime was mid to laye 00s (peaked 06-08, hard to tell because of team mates strength) LeBron's prime is late 00s/early 10s to whenever BUT he is peaking NOW.

By the time Kobe was peaking, Shaq was just a former shell of himself, Duncan was quite clearly declining and LeBron was stuck on mediocre teams that couldn't get to the finals and isn't as good as THIS LeBron. So in actual fact, Kobe's period of domination in that mid to late 00s, and I'll admit he was the overall best player from about 06-08, wasn't all that impressive.

And you conveniently failed to mention all of the 90s greats that didnt make the all time GOAT list BECAUSE of Jordan. He kept Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Stockton etc ringless.

[poido123]

Wow, would you look at that.

Another f@ggot making another Kobe thread :biggums:

Top 5? :roll:

There's debate that Kobe is top 10 :lol:

[Nash]

2001 - kobe/shaq had to argue for best player
2002 - kobe/shaq again
2003 - kobe/duncan
2004 - kobe/duncan
2005 - injured half the year. but when healthy he was top 2-3
2006 - kobe was clear cut best player
2007 - kobe was again clear cut best player
2008 - kobe was actually given mvp
2009 - kobe/lebron battled for best player
2010 - kobe/lebron battled for best player again


http://www.lolbrary.com/content/310/shit-just-got-real-27310.gif

[chosen_wun]

You know there's something wrong when you have to constantly keep reassuring people of Kobe's GOAT rank.

This is like the 100th thread stating he's within top 10, and nobodies opinion has changed. Just accep that he wasn't that great... sheesh, go watch 81 points on youtube or something, it'll make you feel better.

[tpols]

Kenneth, the reason there aren't more top 10 players in the 90s is because MJ and the Bulls gobbled up all the championships.

Take MJ out, and Karl Malone has a few rings, Ewing could have a few rings, Barkley would have more.

And of course there'd be more MVPs up for grabs to. It would totally change the list.

[CAstill]

I actually think you've made a solid argument for Kobe.
It's funny how nobody is refuting the facts you've posted either.
One person brought up dominance, how many other players have
been the main option on a team going to 3 straight finals?
He has been very dominant and has been feared in the league
even when playing on a team that every player dreams of having
their BIG moment against. Hit countless game winners and has ripped
the heart out of many HOFers in the playoffs. He''s won a back to back
which is very dominant. All the while having the most refined and skilled
repertoire in the game for a very long time. Kobe has been top 5 for a
while he just had to wait to build his resume like every other great.

[kennethgriffin]

Kenneth, the reason there aren't more top 10 players in the 90s is because MJ and the Bulls gobbled up all the championships.

Take MJ out, and Karl Malone has a few rings, Ewing could have a few rings, Barkley would have more.

And of course there'd be more MVPs up for grabs to. It would totally change the list.


jordan won 6 titles in the 90's.. not 10

barkleys had no will to win most of his career. was known to be lazy and fat all the time. never played defense. guys like that don't win titles

malone had a better team than jordan. he just choked

ewing had multiple chances when jordan was out of the league, crap coming back or retired for good... he failed all of them


if these guys were truly great they would have come out on top atleast once

its not like the bulls were the 60's celtics. and its not like jordan gobbled up titles like he was russell


magic won 5 in the 80's. bird won 3 in the 80's... thats what happens when you have 2 top legends in the same era


same for kobe/duncan in the 2000's...

[miles berg]

Lol, ok. Kobe is #11 all time, no shame in that.

[Ne 1]

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]

....
/QUOTE]


First of all "majority opinion" is a fallacious argument. Kobe was arguably the 2nd best player in the league starting around the '01 playoffs, and he was the MVP of the WCF Spurs series, but Shaq was clearly the best player in the league. That doesn't take anything away from Kobe, it's just how dominant prime Shaq was, any wing player/guard in NBA history would have been the 2nd best player on a team with prime/peak Shaq, so it's not a knock on Kobe at all. 2003, he had a phenomenal year but in '03 I don't see anyone with an argument over Duncan. 2006'-2008 Kobe was clearly the best in the game, 2009 and 2010 he has a case, but I give a slight edge to LeBeon and Wade in '09 and '10 I give a slight edge to LeBron even after those last 3 games against Boston, but after that it was basically a pick 'em. Before then I had LeBron as clearly better.

[CAstill]

Who cares if they gobbled up all the championships?
Jordan played a lot of years he didn't win the championship
and those players still failed to win. Hakeem won a back to back
when Jordan left and that's why he makes top 15 with mentions of top 10 here and there. You have to take advantage if you want that legacy.
That means Barkley, Ewing, Malone, and even my main man Kemp
all had chances and blew it for one reason or another. They all got
to play Jordan in the finals and lost.

[ripthekik]

I actually think you've made a solid argument for Kobe.
It's funny how nobody is refuting the facts you've posted either.
One person brought up dominance, how many other players have
been the main option on a team going to 3 straight finals?
He has been very dominant and has been feared in the league
even when playing on a team that every player dreams of having
their BIG moment against. Hit countless game winners and has ripped
the heart out of many HOFers in the playoffs. He''s won a back to back
which is very dominant. All the while having the most refined and skilled
repertoire in the game for a very long time. Kobe has been top 5 for a
while he just had to wait to build his resume like every other great.
:applause: :applause:

[Shepseskaf]

I actually think you've made a solid argument for Kobe.
It's funny how nobody is refuting the facts you've posted either.
One person brought up dominance, how many other players have
been the main option on a team going to 3 straight finals?
He has been very dominant and has been feared in the league
even when playing on a team that every player dreams of having
their BIG moment against. Hit countless game winners and has ripped
the heart out of many HOFers in the playoffs. He''s won a back to back
which is very dominant. All the while having the most refined and skilled
repertoire in the game for a very long time. Kobe has been top 5 for a
while he just had to wait to build his resume like every other great.
Ok, so he's a great player. We all know that.

However, #10 is his absolute ceiling on any rational all-time list. No shame in that.

[Shepseskaf]

top 5 is pretty much a lock for kobe, dont worry about haters in here, not like what they say (not think) matters to anyone...
You've got a case of serous myopia if you really believe this.

Why don't you make a list showing the top 10 players that Kobe should be in front of. That should be entertaining.

[CAstill]

Why is 10 his ceiling? That's not where I place him at all.
What are your 9 better? You're entitled to own your opinion
but there hasn't been 9 better ballers than Kobe all time.

[Shepseskaf]

Why is 10 his ceiling? That's not where I place him at all.
What are your 9 better? You're entitled to own your opinion
but there hasn't been 9 better ballers than Kobe all time.
:facepalm :roll:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem

[CAstill]

:facepalm :roll:

MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem

You're laughing but you're dumb.
What has Wilt, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq got on Kobe?
Nothing. That leaves you Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and Magic.
Magic and Kobe are really close. Russell is damn near a formality
but undeniable in the grand scheme of things. Jordan and Kareem
usually duel out for GOAT. Kobe is in the conversation with all of them.
Sounds like top 5 to me.

[Leftimage]

When I first discovered ISH I never would have imagined there would be so much debate over whether a player was 5th, 7th or 10th best ever. One would think we were talking about each poster's ***** length in inches.... seriously who gives a shit? There is no definitive rank for any player. Besides, trying to cover players over such a broad time period is ridiculous.

Like Kobe himself said... apples to oranges.

I'm not against ranking players by quality or anything... but for christ's sake, can we at least compartmentalize them by era!?

To firmly assert that Wilt >Kobe... or that Kobe > Bird ... it's just ridiculous to get so scientific over something so unscientific.

I don't think many people will argue that Kobe was either the best or second best player of his ''era''. Even his detractors. See how much easier it is to rank them this way?

[Shepseskaf]

You're laughing but you're dumb.
What has Wilt, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem or Shaq got on Kobe?
Nothing. That leaves you Jordan, Kareem, Russell, and Magic.
Magic and Kobe are really close. Russell is damn near a formality
but undeniable in the grand scheme of things. Jordan and Kareem
usually duel out for GOAT. Kobe is in the conversation with all of them.
Sounds like top 5 to me.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Seriously, you're actually calling someone 'dumb'? You're probably not old enough to be self-aware.

[CAstill]

I was old enough to watch all of them play live except Wilt but I love
Wilt, he's one of my fave players of all time but I'd never say he was
better than Kobe. It was very close for a while though.
Tell me why you think those players are better and I will try to refrain
from calling you dumb when you make such claims.

[Kews1]

worst thread that kenneth has made.

[Shih508]

Duncan >>>>>>> Kobe, ONLY STANS WOULD DISAGREE~

[CAstill]

Duncan >>>>>>> Kobe, ONLY STANS WOULD DISAGREE~

:facepalm
No not at all. I'm not a stan I'm reasonable fan. Duncan has been great
and deserves all the praise he does but he's not better than Kobe.
While I do believe he has a chance to have a better career depending
if he wins it this year and maybe gets another one, he has never been
as dominant as Kobe. He's always had a team there is no excuse.
Duncan wasn't as good as Shaq and he wasn't as good as a player
as Hakeem was even though his career achievements have made
it almost impossible not to rank him over Hakeem. I don't have those
guys in top 5 and Kobe is.

[fpliii]

what's good griff

[Alan Ogg]

I have no problem with someone having Kobe in their top 5. Like I've said before, people weight categories differently in their top 10 lists. I personally can see Kobe anywhere in the 4 to 12 range.

But saying "there is no legit argument for kobe bryant being out of the top 5" is a bit sensationalistic.

[Trollsmasher]

:facepalm
No not at all. I'm not a stan I'm reasonable fan. Duncan has been great
and deserves all the praise he does but he's not better than Kobe.
While I do believe he has a chance to have a better career depending
if he wins it this year and maybe gets another one, he has never been
as dominant as Kobe. He's always had a team there is no excuse.
Duncan wasn't as good as Shaq and he wasn't as good as a player
as Hakeem was even though his career achievements have made
it almost impossible not to rank him over Hakeem. I don't have those
guys in top 5 and Kobe is.
Why are you formating your posts like a fvcking retard?

[CAstill]

I type and I press enter. Why are you worried about anything other than the basketball discussion at hand? You're worthless

[ThaRegul8r]

I have no problem with someone having Kobe in their top 5. Like I've said before, people weight categories differently in their top 10 lists. I personally can see Kobe anywhere in the 4 to 12 range.

But saying "there is no legit argument for kobe bryant being out of the top 5" is a bit sensationalistic.

I myself couldn't care less who people have in their top five. What's annoying is when every Tom, Dick and Harry feels compelled to not only give their unsolicited opinion, but also decree that no one else can deviate from whatever their own arbitrary list is, which more often than not is nothing more than stannery for their personal favorites. It reeks of insecurity, and since those people take comfort when "everyone/most people agree with me," they try to impose it on everyone since they need other people to think the way they do in order to validate it.

[Shepseskaf]

I type and I press enter. Why are you worried about anything other than the basketball discussion at hand? You're worthless
When you're specifically responding to another post, you're supposed to hit the "Quote" button so its easy to see who you're referring to. Is that hard to figure out?

BTW, your language and sentence formation looks like a 12-year olds.

[CAstill]

When you're specifically responding to another post, you're supposed to hit the "Quote" button so its easy to see who you're referring to. Is that hard to figure out?

BTW, your language and sentence formation looks like a 12-year olds.

:rolleyes:

I give a damn how it come across when all I hear is bs excuses from all you haters that can't speak on the topic at hand. Oh and I quoted this for you so you know that I'm speaking to you. My language is that of a 12 year old yet your debating skills seem even more inferior. You post no substance.

[Dengness9]

I have Tim Duncan just as high as Kobe, probably higher.


Better hope Timmy D doesn't win another chip and/or finals MVP this year or I will be in the group of people that thinks Duncan is BETTER w/ out question.


He already has one more season MVP, 1 more finals MVP with one less ring at the moment. Only player in NBA history to make ALL NBA and ALL Defensive honors in his first 13 seasons.

On top of all those accolades, Timmy D never had problems getting along with teammates, no drama with coaches or a camera at a mall ;)

Duncan also has the opportunity to become the first player to win a championship in 3 different decades.... 99', 03/05/07, and 13????

[Dengness9]

:facepalm
No not at all. I'm not a stan I'm reasonable fan. Duncan has been great
and deserves all the praise he does but he's not better than Kobe.
While I do believe he has a chance to have a better career depending
if he wins it this year and maybe gets another one, he has never been
as dominant as Kobe. He's always had a team there is no excuse.
Duncan wasn't as good as Shaq and he wasn't as good as a player
as Hakeem was even though his career achievements have made
it almost impossible not to rank him over Hakeem. I don't have those
guys in top 5 and Kobe is.


Gotta be real with you.... you just illustrated why Duncan is better than Kobe possibly....Duncan isnt as good as Shaq as you say so that was Kobe's teammate who won all 3 finals MVP's when they were together. So Duncan has always been the best player on his team, outside of the one finals TP9 snatched up the FMVP.

I could make an argument that Kobe would have 3 less rings if not for playing with Shaq, but Duncan was the MVP for the first 3 finals the Spurs won.

[CAstill]

Gotta be real with you.... you just illustrated why Duncan is better than Kobe possibly....Duncan isnt as good as Shaq as you say so that was Kobe's teammate who won all 3 finals MVP's when they were together. So Duncan has always been the best player on his team, outside of the one finals TP9 snatched up the FMVP.

I could make an argument that Kobe would have 3 less rings if not for playing with Shaq, but Duncan was the MVP for the first 3 finals the Spurs won.


And I got to be real with you. Duncan has had great teams his whole career why doesn't he have as good as dominance as Kobe? You say Shaq won those three finals, fine then. Kobe reached his own three straight finals in a row and won a back to back too boost. Where is Duncan's? Duncan has accumulative stats and rings which is more indicative of a good team and foundation. Kobe has proven to win more rings in dominant fashion in multiple scenarios. Kobe has put up better offensive numbers while being slightly less valuable in defense in correlation to his positions. (Big guys are schemed into more defense) Kobe has been more successful and always more skilled.
Kobe>Duncan.

[KG215]

And I got to be real with you. Duncan has had great teams his whole career why doesn't he have as good as dominance as Kobe?
What are you talking about? Duncan at his peak was better than Kobe at his peak. On top of being one of the best defensive anchors ever, he was a very good offensive player.


You say Shaq won those three finals, fine then. Kobe reached his own three straight finals in a row and won a back to back too boost. Where is Duncan's?
So if a player doesn't reach back-to-back Finals or win back-to-back championships, he wasn't as dominant as good as someone who did? Despite the fact that Duncan, as "the man" won 4 rings in the same era as the player you're comparing him to.


Duncan has accumulative stats and rings which is more indicative of a good team and foundation.
You could say the EXACT same thing about Kobe.


Kobe has proven to win more rings in dominant fashion in multiple scenarios.
How so?


Kobe has put up better offensive numbers while being slightly less valuable in defense in correlation to his positions.
In "correlation to positions" or not, Kobe's never had anywhere close to the same impact defensively as Duncan did in his prime, or still does.


(Big guys are schemed into more defense) Kobe has been more successful and always more skilled.
Kobe>Duncan.
So all-time great/impactful big man defenders should automatically be discredited and not be as highly regarded because they are schemed into more defense? (Whatever the hell that means).

[KG215]

The thing about Kobe, which is something I don't think his fanboys have the ability to realize, is that every other player that's a consensus top 10 (MJ, KAJ, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, and soon to be LeBron) were better at their peak than Kobe was at his peak. Kobe's peak isn't too far behind some of them, though, and his longevity gets him comfortably into the top 10.

[Dengness9]

And I got to be real with you. Duncan has had great teams his whole career why doesn't he have as good as dominance as Kobe? You say Shaq won those three finals, fine then. Kobe reached his own three straight finals in a row and won a back to back too boost. Where is Duncan's? Duncan has accumulative stats and rings which is more indicative of a good team and foundation. Kobe has proven to win more rings in dominant fashion in multiple scenarios. Kobe has put up better offensive numbers while being slightly less valuable in defense in correlation to his positions. (Big guys are schemed into more defense) Kobe has been more successful and always more skilled.
Kobe>Duncan.


Whoa whoa whoa bro. Never said Shaq won those finals, didn't word it that way, I stated the fact that he was the finals MVP all three years.... And it sounds pretty ridiculous to me to say Duncan has had great teams his whole career like Kobe has had it tough or something.

Even if Kobe had a few years where the Lakers had to rebuild he was still on a team with Shaq, who is better than anyone Timmy D played with, making it possible to 3 peat. Duncan never played with anyone that dominant where he could 3 peat IMO.

You can't take away from Duncan for playing for a great orginization when Kobe Bryant has since day 1 played for the most successful NBA franchise in history. You sound like a homer despite you saying you aren't. And im not saying at all thats what you are, just sounds like it with that reasoning.

Ending your post with Kobe has always been more skilled and successful is ignorant and has no real merit since it's more of an opinion thing anyways.

Kobe one more ring, one less reg MVP, 1 less FMVP.... dont sit here and say he has been more successful and is more skilled when it's ridiculously close for many reasons.

Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play the game of basketball, when you say shit like i just mentioned, it doesn't properly respect what the guy has done.... AND is still doing right now.

Im just having a hard time with your generalized comments, like KD was saying to you.

[Nero Tulip]

Sorry, but a guy who was never the best player in the league can't be top 10. He's arguably top 15 but that's it.

[Heavincent]

People on ISH underrate Kobe's peak. People act like he's a rich man's Joe Johnson or something. It's stupid.

[Shepseskaf]

:rolleyes:

I give a damn how it come across when all I hear is bs excuses from all you haters that can't speak on the topic at hand. Oh and I quoted this for you so you know that I'm speaking to you. My language is that of a 12 year old yet your debating skills seem even more inferior. You post no substance.
:roll:

I deliberately don't bring 'substance' when responding to an idiot with inferior reasoning skills. That would be you. Its called not wasting one's time.

I read what you've posted and concluded that you're more to be mocked than debated.

[Ne 1]

Sorry, but a guy who was never the best player in the league can't be top 10.


2006-2008.


He's arguably top 15 but that's it.

He's at least 8-10 all-time.

[KG215]

People on ISH underrate Kobe's peak. People act like he's a rich man's Joe Johnson or something. It's stupid.
No, most reasonable posters understand how good he was at his peak. He just wasn't as good as Jordan, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan, and LeBron at their peaks. I don't think I've ever seen someone say, at his peak, Kobe was a rich man's Joe Johnson.

[dh144498]

Sorry, but a guy who was never the best player in the league can't be top 10. He's arguably top 15 but that's it.

:biggums:

so much stupidity in 2 simple statements. How is this even possible?
:wtf:

[dh144498]

No, most reasonable posters understand how good he was at his peak. He just wasn't as good as Jordan, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan, and LeBron at their peaks. I don't think I've ever seen someone say, at his peak, Kobe was a rich man's Joe Johnson.

so what are you using to measure their peaks?
I agree that MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Wilt have better peaks. But explain Russell and Duncan.

[CAstill]

Whoa whoa whoa bro. Never said Shaq won those finals, didn't word it that way, I stated the fact that he was the finals MVP all three years.... And it sounds pretty ridiculous to me to say Duncan has had great teams his whole career like Kobe has had it tough or something.

Even if Kobe had a few years where the Lakers had to rebuild he was still on a team with Shaq, who is better than anyone Timmy D played with, making it possible to 3 peat. Duncan never played with anyone that dominant where he could 3 peat IMO.

You can't take away from Duncan for playing for a great orginization when Kobe Bryant has since day 1 played for the most successful NBA franchise in history. You sound like a homer despite you saying you aren't. And im not saying at all thats what you are, just sounds like it with that reasoning.

Ending your post with Kobe has always been more skilled and successful is ignorant and has no real merit since it's more of an opinion thing anyways.

Kobe one more ring, one less reg MVP, 1 less FMVP.... dont sit here and say he has been more successful and is more skilled when it's ridiculously close for many reasons.

Tim Duncan is the greatest PF to ever play the game of basketball, when you say shit like i just mentioned, it doesn't properly respect what the guy has done.... AND is still doing right now.

Im just having a hard time with your generalized comments, like KD was saying to you.


To me I think that you're given the cards you're given and you play them. Tons of basketball players are great and have great teams around them that still haven't got the job done. I would never disagree that Kobe hasn't had ample chances at getting a ring but I wouldn't disqualify Duncan from that same statement either. You say Duncan has never played with someone as good as Shaq, I agree. That's why I bring up Kobe's second three run final. He did it again with a player in Gasol who imo wasn't as good as Drob. Timmy has always had consistent coaching and I think having that is underrated. Always had teams tailored to his strengths, always had a great bench and solid second options to compliment him with one of the greatest coaches of all time. They've both have had equal chances at accomplishing the same feats correct? If Duncan was as Dominant as advertised he would elevate one of his teams to do that. Lebron is desperately trying to achieve this now because he knows how much a back to back title means in the GOAT conversation. It is a sign of dominance and transcends your legacy. Many players have spoke about how much harder it was to get that second title in a row. Please keep in mind I don't consider all this the end all to be all but it does hold heavy weight imo.

[CAstill]

No, most reasonable posters understand how good he was at his peak. He just wasn't as good as Jordan, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Duncan, and LeBron at their peaks. I don't think I've ever seen someone say, at his peak, Kobe was a rich man's Joe Johnson.


Not true only Jordan on that list had a better peak. Those other players might have had more success against there competition but they weren't better players. Don't confuse the two.

[Nero Tulip]

:biggums:

so much stupidity in 2 simple statements. How is this even possible?
:wtf:

This must be a big change for you. But in forums that aren't dominated by retards the consensus is that Kobe is top 10-15. Lakers fans agree too. Sorry, that's just how it is.

[CAstill]

:roll:

I deliberately don't bring 'substance' when responding to an idiot with inferior reasoning skills. That would be you. Its called not wasting one's time.

I read what you've posted and concluded that you're more to be mocked than debated.


You're a clown quit playing. Still not one thing to say.

[Odinn]

Not true only Jordan on that list had a better peak. Those other players might have had more success against there competition but they weren't better players. Don't confuse the two.
Just stfu. Only an idiot claims KAJ wasn't better than Kobe when it comes to peaks.

[KG215]

so what are you using to measure their peaks?
I agree that MJ, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Wilt have better peaks. But explain Russell and Duncan.
I shouldn't have lumped Russell in there. I don't know enough about him, other then he was arguably the best defensive player ever and a much better offensive player than people think or give him credit for.

As for Duncan, I feel just how good he was at his peak gets overlooked because his game has never been flashy. But this was a guy putting up around 24-13-4-3. And the advanced stats give him even more love. He had win shares of 17.8 and 16.5 in 2002 and 2003; both higher than Kobe's career high of 15.3 in '08. He was even around a 9-10 OWS player those two years, and his ws/48 were higher than Kobe's best.

And I'm not saying any statistical measure should be the only determinant. But with Duncan, at his peak, you got an incredible defensive anchor (something not even the best perimeter defenders in NBA history can replicate) and an underratedly good offensive player. Kobe is/was the better offensive player, but I feel that the gap between his and Duncan's defense is greater than the gap between his and Duncan's offense. Part of that is because Kobe's best defensive seasons. And people seem to forget some of the monster playoff runs Duncan had at his peak in the early and mid-2000's.

[KG215]

Not true only Jordan on that list had a better peak. Those other players might have had more success against there competition but they weren't better players. Don't confuse the two.
:facepalm

So Kobe, at his peak, was better than peak Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, LeBron, Hakeem, and Duncan?

[KG215]

Just stfu. Only an idiot claims KAJ wasn't better than Kobe when it comes to peaks.
With that statement, he's also claiming Kobe's peak was better than guys like Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem.

[fpliii]

Not true only Jordan on that list had a better peak. Those other players might have had more success against there competition but they weren't better players. Don't confuse the two.

:wtf:

C'mon man...

[Shepseskaf]

You're a clown quit playing. Still not one thing to say.
You're embarrassing yourself with blatantly idiotic statements, which is noteworthy with all the dumb things that get posted on ISH.

You should just come out and admit that you're 12. Either that, or you're not dealing with a full deck.

[duatjsghd]

Who has less field goal misses?
Who has more mvps?
Who has a higher fg%?
Who is more efficent
Who didnt have a stacked team through 90% of their whole career?

everyone on that list but kobe
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[duatjsghd]

The list just tells me Kobe played for a long time and chucked a lot.
Longevity is cool but dominance>>>longevity

[boojitede]

2001 - kobe/shaq had to argue for best player
2002 - kobe/shaq again
2003 - kobe/duncan
2004 - kobe/duncan
2005 - injured half the year. but when healthy he was top 2-3
2006 - kobe was clear cut best player
2007 - kobe was again clear cut best player
2008 - kobe was actually given mvp
2009 - kobe/lebron battled for best player
2010 - kobe/lebron battled for best player again


so during the entire decade. kobe was either battling a top 10 legend for best player rights. or was clear cut best player


this is why theres never a dramatic drop off like the weak 90's or weak 2010's era


because the 2000's was a much much better era for top 10 legends
09 wade was clearly better than kobe
i'd even give the edge to tmac in 02/03
04 KG

[CAstill]

With that statement, he's also claiming Kobe's peak was better than guys like Wilt, Shaq, and Hakeem.


I guess the question is what is it that you're looking for out of a peak. I believe other players have had more statistical success in their peak but they were not the better player.

[fpliii]

I guess the question is what is it that you're looking for out of a peak. I believe other players have had more statistical success in their peak but they were not the better player.

Can't speak for KG, but I look for ability to positively impact team-level success. Love Kobe, but he doesn't belong anywhere near the top 2 peaks, regardless of criteria IMO. It's your list though, so you can choose what you want obviously.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Can't speak for KG, but I look for ability to positively impact team-level success. Love Kobe, but he doesn't belong anywhere near the top 2 peaks, regardless of criteria IMO. It's your list though, so you can choose what you want obviously.

How did Kobe not positively impact his team during his peak? Without him they have 3 straight lottery trips.

And the things he did individually during those years were ridiculous. I mean, how many records did he set and break in a 2-3 year span?

[9erempiree]

Great thread.

:applause:

[DaSeba5]

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Bird

Then people argue Shaq and Duncan

How?

[fpliii]

How did Kobe not positively impact his team during his peak? Without him they have 3 straight lottery trips.

And the things he did individually during those years were ridiculous. I mean, how many records did he set and break in a 2-3 year span?

Oh no, he obviously did. I just don't know that he did so more than all but one guy ever. I think that's hard to say.

Records don't mean all that much to me, and Kobe stands very high on his own without them.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Oh no, he obviously did. I just don't know that he did so more than all but one guy ever. I think that's hard to say.

Records don't mean all that much to me, and Kobe stands very high on his own without them.

Well I just look at it in a different context I guess. In my opinion, if anything, Kobe overachieved with his teams from '06-'08 all things considered. It's not like you could say the Lakers should have won, say 52 games in '06 instead of 45.

And I brought up records just because they are a testament to how amazing and dominant he was as a player during his peak. Not validation for his abilities but rather a result.

[fpliii]

Well I just look at it in a different context I guess. In my opinion, if anything, Kobe overachieved with his teams from '06-'08 all things considered. It's not like you could say the Lakers should have won, say 52 games in '06 instead of 45.

And I brought up records just because they are a testament to how amazing and dominant he was as a player during his peak. Not validation for his abilities but rather a result.

No doubt he was dealt a shitty card those years. I'm a little bitter as a Shaq guy, though obviously over the years more has come out, and though both guys were douches, it's clear that Shaq was the instigator and very much at the core of the problem. So I try not to fault Kobe anymore.

I don't think his teams could've done much more with any other guard. A dominant center probably could've led them farther, but that's the nature of the position. In the post-04 league though, perimeter play has opened up much more though, so great wings like Kobe at his best are a huge advantage.

That's fine about the records, I didn't meant no disrespect to Bryant. I think you put it very well with the Bolded.

(FWIW I don't have Jordan in my top handful if peaks either, so that wasn't my issue...I'm just a guy who overvalues bigs, probably).

[KG215]

I guess the question is what is it that you're looking for out of a peak. I believe other players have had more statistical success in their peak but they were not the better player.
Every player I listed not only had statistical success at or above peak Kobe's statistics, they had equal or more team success. And every player I listed was a better and more impactful defender than peak Kobe.

[KG215]

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Wilt
Bird

Then people argue Shaq and Duncan

How?
While I go back-and-forth between Kobe and Hakeem at 9 and 10 on my all-time list, and usually settle with Kobe at 9 and Hakeem at 10, some will also argue Hakeem since his peak was so high. And this all about your personal criteria. Some people, when compiling their rankings, value longevity just as much as peak play, thus Kobe gets ranked higher; as he should if that's your criteria. Me personally, though, I give more weight to peak play; I also include things like longevity.

However, out of my top 10, if I was ranking those players on peak play alone, Kobe would be 10th; and there's several players outside of my all-time top 10 that I would rank higher than Kobe in terms of peak play only.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Sorry, but a guy who was never the best player in the league can't be top 10. He's arguably top 15 but that's it.


No Duncan is at least top 10

[MetsPackers]

You ever wonder why only 15 year old asian kids agree with you while literally credible poster calls you a complete idiot and says Kobe is barely top 10? If we could see what the people who agree with you look like vs the people who disagree it would be so laughable you'd never start another one of these retarded threads again. But i'm starting to believe you don't believe any of this since there are obviously at very least 5 basketball players that Kobe doesn't even begin to have an argument over

[DaSeba5]

While I go back-and-forth between Kobe and Hakeem at 9 and 10 on my all-time list, and usually settle with Kobe at 9 and Hakeem at 10, some will also argue Hakeem since his peak was so high. And this all about your personal criteria. Some people, when compiling their rankings, value longevity just as much as peak play, thus Kobe gets ranked higher; as he should if that's your criteria. Me personally, though, I give more weight to peak play; I also include things like longevity.

However, out of my top 10, if I was ranking those players on peak play alone, Kobe would be 10th; and there's several players outside of my all-time top 10 that I would rank higher than Kobe in terms of peak play only.

Kobe is in my top 10 for sure. I don't see how he is not. He's not top 5 though.

[CAstill]

While I go back-and-forth between Kobe and Hakeem at 9 and 10 on my all-time list, and usually settle with Kobe at 9 and Hakeem at 10, some will also argue Hakeem since his peak was so high. And this all about your personal criteria. Some people, when compiling their rankings, value longevity just as much as peak play, thus Kobe gets ranked higher; as he should if that's your criteria. Me personally, though, I give more weight to peak play; I also include things like longevity.

However, out of my top 10, if I was ranking those players on peak play alone, Kobe would be 10th; and there's several players outside of my all-time top 10 that I would rank higher than Kobe in terms of peak play only.


What do you consider peak play? Because I'm trying to see where you're coming from. I feel like in most top 10 conversations most careers are arguable.

[Straight_Ballin]

OP is missing the #1 component when ranking a player. HAVING ACTUALLY WATCHED the greats play. If you did that you would realize that Kobe is not the 5th greatest player to play the game. Not by a long shot.

[9erempiree]

No argument at all.

I would say he's top 5 easily.

[KG215]

What do you consider peak play? Because I'm trying to see where you're coming from. I feel like in most top 10 conversations most careers are arguable.
In this argument, it'd be their best 2-4 season stretch, when they were at their absolute best. Obviously they aren't going to be equally as good for all of those seasons, and single season peaks are a different thing, but for the sake of judging which players were best at their peak, I look at their best 2-4 year stretch.

It's subjective for some players and probably not always in consecutive seasons. I mean you could make an argument for 2003 or 2008 as Kobe's single-season peak, but I tend to go with '06-'09 as his peak. And he was as great in those seasons, like really, really good. I'm not denying that. But in my opinion he wasn't as good as Shaq from '00-'02; Hakeem from '92-'95; Jordan from '91-'93; Bird from '84-'87; Magic from '87-'90; Duncan from '01-'03. I'm not as sure about Wilt's multi-year peak, but 1967 was his best season. 1962 was a monster statistical season but he put it all together in 1967.

Point being, out of all the other guys in my top 10, I don't think Kobe was on the same level at his peak as the other players were at their peak.

[Nevaeh]

Well I just look at it in a different context I guess. In my opinion, if anything, Kobe overachieved with his teams from '06-'08 all things considered. It's not like you could say the Lakers should have won, say 52 games in '06 instead of 45.

And I brought up records just because they are a testament to how amazing and dominant he was as a player during his peak. Not validation for his abilities but rather a result.

He wasn't dominant tho, dude. He just shot a lot, and benefited from the League suddenly becoming lax on perimeter players, looking for the next Jordan. You youngsters can bullsh!t yourselves till the cows come home. Those of us who were actually adults back then know better.