Phil Jackson picks Bill Russell over MJ & basically says MJ or Kobe is a pick 'em

[Ne 1]

[QUOTE]If given the choice of any player in NBA history to start a franchise, legendary coach Phil Jackson says Celtics center Bill Russell would win out over his former player Michael Jordan.

[Connor B]

Phil Jackson is so overrated.

[b0bab0i]

pOST liNKS to sauces?

[AngelEyes]

pOST liNKS to sauces?

http://southernfood.about.com/od/spaghettisaucerecipes/r/bl30623n.htm

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/alfredo-sauce-2/

[b0bab0i]

http://southernfood.about.com/od/spaghettisaucerecipes/r/bl30623n.htm

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/alfredo-sauce-2/
:roll: :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Who the hell is Phil Jackson, and just what the hell does he know about basketball?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Dat backpedaling

Kobe prob sent him a spiteful text message

[jstern]

Wtf.

At the Kobe. Not just because Jordan is in a different level, but because he was less of a headache for him.

[Shade8780]

Bill Russell is probably the 2nd best player of all time after MJ. It's not crazy to say he was better than Jordan. Russ was a beast.

[tikay0]

Bill Russell is probably the 2nd best player of all time after MJ. It's not crazy to say he was better than Jordan. Russ was a beast.

Not even close my friend. The only player that has a case for clear cut 2nd best, and arguably tied with MJ is Kareem.

Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard with b-ball IQ, much better defender, rebounder, shot blocker, and overall intangibles.

He was Dennis Rodman mixed with Barkley, and a dash of Howard, but better than all 3.

[Shade8780]

Not even close my friend. The only player that has a case for clear cut 2nd best, and arguably tied with MJ is Kareem.

Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard with b-ball IQ, much better defender, rebounder, shot blocker, and overall intangibles.

He was Dennis Rodman mixed with Barkley, and a dash of Howard, but better than all 3.
Russell was the ultimate team player. He could get in the head of anybody, could dominate the game by taking five shots, and was one of the best passers in the league at the time. Hondo said their team took a huge shock the year after he retired because they ran through his passes.

He was super unselfish and was the GOAT defender and rebounder. Also, an amazing athlete. If I got a team full of shooters I'm gonna pick Russell, if I have a team with scrubs, I'm taking MJ.

[tikay0]

Russell was the ultimate team player. He could get in the head of anybody, could dominate the game by taking five shots, and was one of the best passers in the league at the time. Hondo said their team took a huge shock the year after he retired because they ran through his passes.

He was super unselfish and was the GOAT defender and rebounder. Also, an amazing athlete. If I got a team full of shooters I'm gonna pick Russell, if I have a team with scrubs, I'm taking MJ.

Agree. Bill Russell is hands down the greatest defender of all time. I would love to start a franchise with Mr. Russell. I still put MJ and Kareem SLIGHTLY ahead of him. I mean by the slightest of margins.

Russell on defense was like a cheat code. Never knew he was such a great passer. Makes him even more deadly.

[Crafty]

Yeah, Bill won a lot and you can argue between him and Mj to start a franchise, but MJ or Kobe? C'mon ...

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No surprise. If given the choice, Phil would also take Shaq over MJ. He's always felt that basketball is a big man's game.

[Shade8780]

The only reason I really think Russell has a case over Kareem is that Bill had such heart and was obsessed with winning. It was almost scary :lol He got sick before every single game. I never really saw a killer instinct in Kareem.

[ThaRegul8r]

No surprise. If given the choice, Phil would also take Shaq over MJ.

Until he comes out and says so himself, let's not put words in his mouth or act like we're privy to his thoughts he hasn't divulged.

[tikay0]

The only reason I really think Russell has a case over Kareem is that Bill had such heart and was obsessed with winning. It was almost scary :lol I never really saw that killer instinct in Kareem.

True. Bill Russell is easily my favorite big man. He was like a created character in a videogame, if you raised all his stats to 99 on the defensive side, and intangibles.

[teddytwelvetoes]

Not even close my friend. The only player that has a case for clear cut 2nd best, and arguably tied with MJ is Kareem.

Bill Russell was like Dwight Howard with b-ball IQ, much better defender, rebounder, shot blocker, and overall intangibles.

He was Dennis Rodman mixed with Barkley, and a dash of Howard, but better than all 3.:coleman:

[tikay0]

:coleman:

OK, I exaggerated with not even close. You know what I meant with the Dwight Howard comparison. Just imagine Dwight Howard being 100x better, and you got Bill Russell.

P.S. Depending on what mood I'm in, Russell is easily my favorite player of all time.

[Shade8780]

Wow did I change your mind about Bill that much?! :lol You changed your avatar to him.

[ThaRegul8r]

:coleman:

Howard was the latest in a long line of "next Bill Russells" which has spanned from Nate Thurmond to Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel, but this season should definitively put a permanent moratorium on Howard ever being put in the same sentence as Russell again.

[tikay0]

Wow did I change your mind about Bill that much?! :lol You changed your avatar to him.

YES. :D

[MJ23forever]

Comment:

Kobe had a higher ceiling but lower floor than Jordan but Jordan was more consistent, it really is a toss up.


Its funny that this is the compromise Kobe stans have settled for now, but no. I'm sorry, the answer's still no. Not even close.

For the record, Kobe taking more difficult shots only means he wasn't talented enough or smart enough to create better shots. Either way, its not a good thing.

[fpliii]

YES. :D

:applause:

[tikay0]

Howard was the latest in a long line of "next Bill Russells" which has spanned from Nate Thurmond to Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel, but this season should definitively put a permanent moratorium on Howard ever being put in the same sentence as Russell again.

Howard lacks the intelligence, game, and mentality to even be compared to Russell.

[TheMan]

As a Jordan fan, I have no problem PJax picking Russell over MJ. I rank MJ, KAJ, Bird and Magic over Bill but that's my opinion.

[fpliii]

Howard was the latest in a long line of "next Bill Russells" which has spanned from Nate Thurmond to Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel, but this season should definitively put a permanent moratorium on Howard ever being put in the same sentence as Russell again.

Did Walton ever get any 'next Bill Russell' hype? Everything I've read has painted him as a different player than Wilt or Russ, but I feel like it must've been there to some extent.

[ThaRegul8r]

Howard lacks the intelligence, game, and mentality to even be compared to Russell.

True, but that didn't stop people from comparing them anyway. I keep track of this stuff, and there was a lot of talk about Howard possibly being the next Bill Russell, with Matt Guokas famously saying he was better, a statement which seems even more silly now.

[tikay0]

True, but that didn't stop people from comparing them anyway. I keep track of this stuff, and there was a lot of talk about Howard possibly being the next Bill Russell, with Matt Guokas famously saying he was better, a statement which seems even more silly now.

Who do you think is the closest representation of him ATM?

Noah? A super, super, super bootleg version of Russ.

[K Xerxes]

The ring argument on its own is ridiculous. In that case, Phil would pick Sam Jones as his second choice?

HOWEVER, there is a legitimate argument for Russell. Russell's offensive deficiencies are well documented, but it doesn't tell the story. Russell sacrificied his offensive game (for the most part) in favour of doing the things that WON all those championships: defense. He was the one consistent factor in all 11 rings because he modelled his game perfectly for his team mates to succeed. And, ultimately, the weak era argument is quite meaningless because you can only defeat what's in front of you - the ultimate purpose of basketball is to win, and that's exactly what he did. For eleven out of those thirteen seasons.

When he was needed to play offense, he did. I do recall seeing that he had some pretty big offensive games when the situation called for it, but he was a true pioneer of the game.

He focused on the unflashy things and didn't lose sight of what he had to do to bring success. That is an attitude and mindset that might be unparalleled in the history of game.

[Shade8780]

Who do you think is the closest representation of him ATM?

Noah? A super, super, super bootleg version of Russ.
Marc Gasol. A great defensive big man who's great at passing and is great because of the little things he does that aren't on the stat sheet. He's different offensively and no where near as athletic as him but he's still kind of similar. Gasol will never be the player Russell is though so there really isn't a close representation of him. The closest to him in the past was peak Bill Walton. A poor man's Walton would be a good comparison for Gasol.

[ThaRegul8r]

Did Walton ever get any 'next Bill Russell' hype? Everything I've read has painted him as a different player than Wilt or Russ, but I feel like it must've been there to some extent.

Walton received some comparisons to Russell both in UCLA and at Portland, and if I remember correctly, I think Russell himself was asked about it while he was a commentator. It wasn't to the extent that, to give more modern examples, David Robinson at Navy or Patrick Ewing at Georgetown were hyped as "next Bill Russells" before setting foot in the NBA, but Walton was likened to Russell during Walton's short-lived prime due to their outlet passing, defense and making teams better, and I remember a couple people saying afterward that Walton was the only center who came closest to Russell's impact. I could send you some stuff later, if you wish.

[S13M]

First he said MJ was better, but now he can't make a decision on who to pick?

[tikay0]

Marc Gasol. A great defensive big man who's great at passing and is great because of the little things he does that aren't on the stat sheet. He's different offensively and no where near as athletic as him but he's still kind of similar.

Yeah, but when I think of Russell, I think of a crazy athletic specimen that's flying up and down the court, wreaking havoc.

In a way yes, Gasol can be compared to Russ, but aesthetically wise, Gasol is too lumbering for me to compare the 2.

What about a 200-300x better version of Kenneth Faried with much better offensive awareness?

[Shade8780]

Walton received some comparisons to Russell both in UCLA and at Portland, and if I remember correctly, I think Russell himself was asked about it while he was a commentator. It wasn't to the extent that, to give more modern examples, David Robinson at Navy or Patrick Ewing at Georgetown were hyped as "next Bill Russells" before setting foot in the NBA, but Walton was likened to Russell during Walton's short-lived prime due to their outlet passing, defense and making teams better, and I remember a couple people saying afterward that Walton was the only center who came closest to Russell's impact. I could send you some stuff later, if you wish.
Agreed. Walton was an amazing player at his peak. Too bad injuries got to him.

[Shade8780]

Yeah, but when I think of Russell, I think of a crazy athletic specimen that's flying up and down the court, wreaking havoc.

In a way yes, Gasol can be compared to Russ, but aesthetically wise, Gasol is too lumbering for me to compare the 2.

What about a 200-300x better version of Kenneth Faried with much better offensive awareness?
No. Faried is a good rebounder and athletic. That's it. He isn't a great defender which was Russell's biggest skill.

[tikay0]

No. Faried is a good rebounder and athletic. That's it. He isn't a great defender which was Russell's biggest skill.

I guess you're right. OK, Faried with 500x better defense and 300x better on offense. :confusedshrug:

[longtime lurker]

When will people realize that Phil just says this shit for attention?

As far as picking Bill Russell he's the greatest winner in NBA history as a player. Isn't that the point of the game?

[Pushxx]

Order of players I would draft first as a GM:

1. Bird
2. MJ
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Wilt

THIS IS NOT MY TOP 10...BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Ne 1]

Not that I care what Phil thinks, I form my own opinions and saying something is true just because Phil Jackson said so is a fallacious argument. But it's funny how all the usual Kobe detractors were quoting Phil like his words were gospel from the bible when it fit their agenda, but now that he says he was willing to flip a coin because Kobe and Mike were both so dominating, you haters don't like it and say "who cares what Phil says, he's just trying to appease Kobe". :oldlol:



he wasn't talented enough or smart enough to create better shots.

Uh, no. Kobe/Phil have already talked about this

Kobe has SMALL HANDS and can't control the ball when going to the basket like Mike. MJ was more athletic, which allowed him to get to the basket at a better rate. Kobe doesn't take tougher shots cause he's not smart or has a low basketball IQ, he just didn't get the same physical gifts as Jordan or LeBron. He's already on the record saying that if he had bigger hands, that he would take it to the basket every play and dunk the ball or lay it up. He just can't do it because he didn't win the genetic lottery like LeBron or Mike.

Which is why him being who he is becomes so impressive. This is a guy with average-good athleticism, but not the outta this world athleticism that Mike, LeBron or even Vince Carter have, yet he's been able to place himself right there with Bron and MJ. That is why I respect and admire Kobe. He dedicated time to develop his skills and worked around his short-comings. He isn't who he is because he's an anomaly of biology like LeBron James who simply cannot be stopped because he's a 6'8" 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.

[Ne 1]

No surprise. If given the choice, Phil would also take Shaq over MJ. He's always felt that basketball is a big man's game.

Yup, he even said a few years ago he would take Dwight over LeBron to build a team.

[dh144498]

Not that I care what Phil thinks, I form my own opinions and saying something is true just because Phil Jackson said so is a fallacious argument. But Kobe all the usual Kobe detractors were quoting Phil like his words were gospel from the bible when it fit their agenda, but now that he says he was willing to flip a coin because Kobe and Mike were both so dominating, you haters don't like it and say "who cares what Phil says, he's just trying to appease Kobe". :oldlol:




Uh, no. Kobe/Phil have already talked about this

Kobe has SMALL HANDS and can't control the ball when going to the basket like Mike. Kobe doesn't take tougher shots cause he's not smart or has a low basketball IQ, he just didn't get the same physical gifts as Jordan or LeBron. He's already on the record saying that if he had bigger hands, that he would take it to the basket every play and dunk the ball or lay it up. He just can't do it because he didn't win the genetic lottery like LeBron or Mike.

Which is why him being who he is becomes so impressive. This is a guy with average-good athleticism, but not the outta this world athleticism that Mike, LeBron or even Vince Carter have, yet he's been able to place himself right there with Bron and MJ. That is why I respect and admire Kobe. He dedicated time to develop his skills and worked around his short-comings. He isn't who he is because he's an anomaly of biology like LeBron James who simply cannot be stopped because he's a 6'8" 270 pound freak of nature with the speed and agility of a 6'4 200 pound point guard.


becuase Kobe is so skilled. Which is why I respect Larry Bird as well.

[tpols]

Yeah, but when I think of Russell, I think of a crazy athletic specimen that's flying up and down the court, wreaking havoc.

In a way yes, Gasol can be compared to Russ, but aesthetically wise, Gasol is too lumbering for me to compare the 2.

What about a 200-300x better version of Kenneth Faried with much better offensive awareness?
Would Russell be like KG?

Both absurd defenders and can guard out to half court, great rebounder, great vocal leaders, great passing, and the weakest part of their overall games was scoring but they still did that at a high level.

They have the same body frames too.

[fpliii]

Walton received comparisons to Russell both in UCLA and at Portland, and if I remember correctly, I think Russell himself was asked about it while he was a commentator. It wasn't to the extent that, to give more modern examples, David Robinson at Navy or Patrick Ewing at Georgetown were hyped as "next Bill Russells" before setting foot in the NBA, but Walton was likened to Russell during Walton's short-lived prime due to their outlet passing, defense and making teams better, and I remember a couple people saying afterward that Walton was the only center who came closest to Russell's impact. I could send you some stuff later, if you wish.

The bolded is what I had in mind. During his UCLA days, there seems to have been some chatter of him being 'Russell on defense, Chamberlain on offense', but I haven't seen anything likening him to Russ directly. If you have a chance later on, I'd definitely like to take you up on that offer.

I just did a few quick searches ("next Bill Russell", "next Russell", "second coming of Bill Russell", "second coming of Russell"), and got the following results:

Artis Gilmore: 1
Len Elmore: 4
Cliff Ray: 1
Patrick Ewing: 14
Ralph Sampson: 1
David Robinson: 1
Alonzo Mourning: 1

so I decided to do look more closely into Walton's UCLA days. There are some comparisons to Walton (i.e. "similar impact", "the next great center", "he can be like what Russell was for those Celtics teams"), etc.), but not many direct stylistic comparisons. I'll look again when I have some free time. Here's the link with the PDFs used in the above count:

http://www75.zippyshare.com/v/42050006/file.html

(NOTE: PDF results generally tail off after the mid-90s, so these aren't representative of the discussion thereafter).

[tikay0]

Would Russell be like KG?

Both absurd defenders and can guard out to half court, great rebounder, great vocal leaders, great passing, and the weakest part of their overall games was scoring but they still did that at a high level.

They have the same body frames too.

Great comparison. KG is arguably the best defender of our generation. I definitely see the comparisons.

[Blue&Orange]

Jackson dodged when asked to select between Jordan and Lakers guard Kobe Bryant
wonder why :rolleyes:

[fpliii]

Yeah, but when I think of Russell, I think of a crazy athletic specimen that's flying up and down the court, wreaking havoc.

In a way yes, Gasol can be compared to Russ, but aesthetically wise, Gasol is too lumbering for me to compare the 2.

What about a 200-300x better version of Kenneth Faried with much better offensive awareness?

Maybe a Dwight-Noah-old Duncan hybrid (without Duncan's jumpshot) would be a nice Russell-lite? You get the athleticism/rebounding/interior presence (Dwight), versatility/passing/hustle (Noah) and intelligence/craftiness/will to win (Duncan).

[tikay0]

Maybe a Dwight-Noah-old Duncan hybrid (without Duncan's jumpshot) would be a nice Russell-lite? You get the athleticism/rebounding/interior presence (Dwight), versatility/passing/hustle (Noah) and intelligence/craftiness/will to win (Duncan).

:applause: Awesome comparison. Russell was indeed that dang good. :bowdown:

[Shade8780]

Would Russell be like KG?

Both absurd defenders and can guard out to half court, great rebounder, great vocal leaders, great passing, and the weakest part of their overall games was scoring but they still did that at a high level.

They have the same body frames too.
That's also a good comparison.

[BoutPractice]

From the games I've seen of Russell, he's like Noah on steroids. Great defender, rebounder, team player, very quick for his size, surprising ball handler and amazing passer.

There's also a bit of KG, but without the midrange J and with more dominant defense. Less theatrics too.

One last comparison I would throw around is Duncan. Like Timmy, he's a superstar who cares about the little details that don't get noticed by casual fans but win championships, plays with his mind as much as with his body, and always moves with purpose on the court.

[Shade8780]

Maybe a Dwight-Noah-old Duncan hybrid (without Duncan's jumpshot) would be a nice Russell-lite? You get the athleticism/rebounding/interior presence (Dwight), versatility/passing/hustle (Noah) and intelligence/craftiness/will to win (Duncan).
That as well.

[TheReal Kendall]

I'm starting to think Phil is just talking out his arse. This nikka just saying crap now to get a buzz

[jlip]

I love reading comments like this from people like Phil who actually have experience with both the "old" and more modern eras. He actually faced Russell at the end of Russell's career, and probably grew up as a fan of his. So to him, Russell is not some old guy who is only known by some stats on basketball reference.com. He saw Russell's genius and dominance and is in a great position to appreciate how great he truly was.

Also, much like Pippen, Phil Jackson has a relationship with MJ that fans don't understand. Phil wasn't a "fan" of MJ's. He was his coach. From Phil's perspective MJ is not some perfect basketball "god." He saw the flawed, losing MJ whom he had to teach to be more unselfish and trusting of his teammates. He remembers having to pull MJ aside in the 4th quarter of game 5 of the '91 Finals and tell him to pas to an open Paxson instead of trying to win it himself. He saw the player whom he had to help become a winner. So to Phil, it's not, "MJ is the clear GOAT. He is 6 for 6 in the Finals." as some fans like to say. To Phil, it's, "I helped him go 6 for 6 in the Finals. It's not just his greatness alone. He may not have been this successful if he hadn't learned to listen to me."

[chosen_wun]

Would Russell be like KG?

Both absurd defenders and can guard out to half court, great rebounder, great vocal leaders, great passing, and the weakest part of their overall games was scoring but they still did that at a high level.

They have the same body frames too.
Bill Russell was a terrible offensive player, just Garnett is adequate at that aspect.

[tpols]

I love reading comments like this from people like Phil who actually have experience with both the "old" and more modern eras. He actually faced Russell at the end of Russell's career, and probably grew up as a fan of his. So to him, Russell is not some old guy who is only known by some stats on basketball reference.com. He saw Russell's genius and dominance and is in a great position to appreciate how great he truly was.

Also, much like Pippen, Phil Jackson has a relationship with MJ that fans don't understand. Phil wasn't not a "fan" of MJ's. He was his coach. From Phil's perspective MJ is not some perfect basketball "god." He saw the flawed, losing MJ whom he had to teach to be more unselfish and trusting of his teammates. He remembers having to pull MJ aside in the 4th quarter of game 5 of the '91 Finals and tell him to pas to an open Paxson instead of trying to win it himself. He saw the player whom he had to help become a winner. So to Phil, it's not, "MJ is the clear GOAT. He is 6 for 6 in the Finals." as some fans like to say. To Phil, it's, "I helped him go 6 for 6 in the Finals. It's not just his greatness alone. He may not have been this successful if he hadn't learned to listen to me."
Great insight.

[sportjames23]

I love reading comments like this from people like Phil who actually have experience with both the "old" and more modern eras. He actually faced Russell at the end of Russell's career, and probably grew up as a fan of his. So to him, Russell is not some old guy who is only known by some stats on basketball reference.com. He saw Russell's genius and dominance and is in a great position to appreciate how great he truly was.

Also, much like Pippen, Phil Jackson has a relationship with MJ that fans don't understand. Phil wasn't not a "fan" of MJ's. He was his coach. From Phil's perspective MJ is not some perfect basketball "god." He saw the flawed, losing MJ whom he had to teach to be more unselfish and trusting of his teammates. He remembers having to pull MJ aside in the 4th quarter of game 5 of the '91 Finals and tell him to pas to an open Paxson instead of trying to win it himself. He saw the player whom he had to help become a winner. So to Phil, it's not, "MJ is the clear GOAT. He is 6 for 6 in the Finals." as some fans like to say. To Phil, it's, "I helped him go 6 for 6 in the Finals. It's not just his greatness alone. He may not have been this successful if he hadn't learned to listen to me."


Or maybe Phil wouldn't have become the winning coach he did without MJ. Phil wouldn't have had NO cred without MJ leading those teams to titles. It ain't like Phil ever took a team like the Raptors to the Finals.

[BoutPractice]

Russell was most definitely NOT a terrible offensive player. There's a lot more to offense than scoring. He was no Ben Wallace...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

PJax didn't say Russ was better. He just said he would pick him if he was starting a team. He made no mention of "GOAT" or who is better.


First he said MJ was better, but now he can't make a decision on who to pick?

A lot of the sports media is saying Phil picked Russell because he was tired of hurting Kobe's feelings. He saw how badly all the Jordan comparisons and love thrashing got to Kobe (via twitter). Not sure I believe that, but still hilarious anyway. :oldlol:

[jlip]

Or maybe Phil wouldn't have become the winning coach he did without MJ. Phil wouldn't have had NO cred without MJ leading those teams to titles. It ain't like Phil ever took a team like the Raptors to the Finals.

You're totally missing my point. My point is not that Phil single-handedly turned some incompetent loser into a champion through his coaching genius. My point is Phil doesn't view MJs resume' and career as just the result of MJ's greatness either, which is basically how the average fan sees things when they start rattling off the case for a player's GOAT status. Phil sees MJ's greatness, not as a star- strucked impressed fan. He sees it as the result of a process which he greatly contributed to.

It's kind of like the big brother of a superstar. The average fan only knows that superstar as a superstar and is totally enamored by his/her greatness. The fan wants the superstar's autograph, to take a picture with him/ her, or screams in excitement when they see this celebrity.

The big brother doesn't do that. The big brother is like, "I remember when I used to beat you up back in the day, and mama used to wipe your nose. I grew up with you, and remember when you weren't so popular. I helped you get where you are by taking you to practice and everything." Phil is like MJs big brother in this case. He's not the fan.

[Round Mound]

[B]Russel Was The Best Defensive Player Ever and Among the GOAT Rebounders But He Wasn