French Open 2013

[enayes]

http://www.worldwideticketing.com/images/tennis/french/roland-garros-logo.jpg


French Open starts on Sunday the 26th. Nadal going in as the solid favorite after winning 5 clay court titles this year. Djokovic is the #1 seed but he has lost early in the last two tournaments.

Nadal and Djokovic are on the same 1/2 of the draw, so they could meet in the semi-finals. Berdych has to face Gael Monfils in the 1st round.

Myself and a friend have jointly placed a $50 bet on David Ferrer to win. It will pay $1,287. He is in Federer's 1/2 of the draw and was two points away from defeating Nadal a couple weeks ago. He's never won a major but I could see him pulling this off, especially if Nadal/Djoker lose before the Final.

:pimp:

[bdreason]

Not a fan of the French Open, or Nadal... but I will probably watch a few matches. I really don't see anyone beating Nadal, and as you already stated, Djoker has looked terrible the past few weeks.

[imdaman99]

nadal has been dominant in his comeback. hopefully he keeps it up, i couldnt watch wimbledon or US open because it was missing the classic matches that nadal brings. he was so close in last years australian, and french he just owns the clay.

[enayes]

Nadal has looked great but he's not invincible. Djoker beat him in a clay court final this year, Ferrer was two points away one match, Ernests Gulbis took a set off Nadal 6-1 last week. And I believe Nadal had a few 3-set matches while in the past he has breezed through. Of course the majors are now best of 5 which usually only helps Nadal as he's one of the most fit on tour. I'm a huge Nadal fan but I'd like to see someone else win it this year.

[entropy35]

Nadal is favorite but I think Djokovic has a good chance of winning this year.

[Meticode]

Yawn fest, must be Euros.

[gigantes]

Yawn fest, must be Euros.
you mean, just like that vapid, pointless comment?

...

im worried about djoker... dunno what's up with him, lately. maybe he's burned out a bit, fallen off his diet, or has some personal stuff going on. must be tough sometimes being the #1 sportsman for your nation, which is something i don't think nadal quite has to do. although murray, yes. it can be a hell of a lot of pressure, i'm sure.


i hate clay, so it's hard to get terribly excited about this one. as long as serena doesn't win i'll be pretty-much satisfied. would definitely like to see the djoker get his slam, tho...

[raiderfan19]

There's nothing wrong with djoker. We just got spoiled by fed. That level of dominance was unprecedented in the history of tennis(and to be honest if it wasn't for fed, nadal would be remembered as one of the most dominant players ever. No one but prime fed wins all the time.

Speaking of which I think fed wins this and I think it's probably his next to last major title

[gigantes]

it has nothing to do with federer.

anytime a clear #1 in any sport has an uncharacteristically bad stretch, questions are going to be raised. both things are normal, and i'm sure it happened to fed, as well.

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Should be named Nadal Open soon. The most boring of the Masters IMO.

[enayes]

it has nothing to do with federer.

anytime a clear #1 in any sport has an uncharacteristically bad stretch, questions are going to be raised. both things are normal, and i'm sure it happened to fed, as well.


I wouldn't call Djokovic a clear #1. Maybe in 2011, but not now. He does have a large lead in ranking points right now but Nadal has earned more points THIS year, he's having the best year out of everyone having won 6 tourneys already.

It's not a huge surprise when Djokovic loses, it was when Federer was in his prime and playing on any surface other than clay.

[gigantes]

please.

and it's not that he lost but the -way- he lost those times. like a reversion to his form from years ago.

[AirFederer]

Should be named Nadal Open soon. The most boring of the Masters IMO.

It`s a Grand Slam :cheers:

Nadull is the favourite, but hopefully he will be defeaten :rockon:

[enayes]

Monfils defeated #6 seed Berdych in a 5 set match. Not a huge surprise, everyone knew Berdych had a tough draw.

Nadal gets through his 1st round match in 4 sets, losing the opening set 4-6. I didn't watch the match but it seemed his opponent played a great match.

Ferrer and Federer won their 1st round matches in straight sets yesterday.

[raiderfan19]

please.

and it's not that he lost but the -way- he lost those times. like a reversion to his form from years ago.
What I'm saying is, it's par for the course. There have been guys with huge years ala 2011 djoker but only fed has ever been able to stay anywhere near that level for an extended period of time.

[imdaman99]

Monfils defeated #6 seed Berdych in a 5 set match. Not a huge surprise, everyone knew Berdych had a tough draw.

Nadal gets through his 1st round match in 4 sets, losing the opening set 4-6. I didn't watch the match but it seemed his opponent played a great match.

Ferrer and Federer won their 1st round matches in straight sets yesterday.
very unusual to see nadal lose a set in the french open, especially in the 1st round. makes me worried about whether the competition on clay has caught up to him.

[bdreason]

Nadal gets through his 1st round match in 4 sets, losing the opening set 4-6. I didn't watch the match but it seemed his opponent played a great match.



Guy was up a set and 3-0 in the 2nd set tie-break... then lost 3 sets in a row.

[The_Yearning]

Guy was up a set and 3-0 in the 2nd set tie-break... then lost 3 sets in a row.

Nadal always has the mental edge on players... on any surface... especially clay.

[AintNoSunshine]

How much do you get or betting $100 on Nadal?

[enayes]

How much do you get or betting $100 on Nadal?


At the start of the tourney you had to bet $115 to win an additional $100. So prob 80 something on a $100 bet. It's not really worth it, which is why I placed 50 on Ferrer that pays over $1200.

[enayes]

Djokovic is facing Dimitrov in the 3rd round. Dimitrov defeated Djokovic a few weeks ago.

Ferrer and Federer cruised into the 3rd round yesterday.

[plowking]

With how much they've slowed down all courts in general, its ridiculous with these Clay comps. Only moonballers like Nadal stand a chance. He sits back and waits for his opponent to tire or make a mistake. Shouldn't even be a grand slam event.

Hopefully he gets knocked out in the earlier rounds and one of Fed or Djoker can take it.

[alenleomessi]

i havent watched tennis in years

when was the last time federer won a grand slam? and when was the last time he beat nadal?

[InfiniteBaskets]

i havent watched tennis in years

when was the last time federer won a grand slam? and when was the last time he beat nadal?

Not sure about exact match he beat Nadal, but Federer won last year's Wimbledown. In fact last year's was arguably the most parity the ATP has seen in a long time.

[enayes]

With how much they've slowed down all courts in general, its ridiculous with these Clay comps. Only moonballers like Nadal stand a chance. He sits back and waits for his opponent to tire or make a mistake. Shouldn't even be a grand slam event.

Hopefully he gets knocked out in the earlier rounds and one of Fed or Djoker can take it.

Sounds like you don't watch, play or enjoy tennis in any way.

If by moonballs you mean heavy topspin forehands that would fly by you before you could take your first step, then yes, I agree with you.

[raiderfan19]

The funny thing is, they've actually sped up the clay courts. What they've really done is homogenized the surfaces which does it's goal of getting the top guys deep everywhere but it is sad that it's tough to really have specialists.

[plowking]

Sounds like you don't watch, play or enjoy tennis in any way.

If by moonballs you mean heavy topspin forehands that would fly by you before you could take your first step, then yes, I agree with you.

:oldlol:

There is a reason Nadal isn't winning anything apart from Clay tournaments anymore.

He plays like prime Lleyton Hewitt on steroids. Hes got the stamina to keep hitting shots back over and waiting for his opponent to make mistakes. Most boring top 4 player I've seen in a long, long time.

[enayes]

:oldlol:

There is a reason Nadal isn't winning anything apart from Clay tournaments anymore.

He plays like prime Lleyton Hewitt on steroids. Hes got the stamina to keep hitting shots back over and waiting for his opponent to make mistakes. Most boring top 4 player I've seen in a long, long time.

Of course his best surface is clay, but are you really going to put down one of the only tennis players with a career grand slam?

Clay court specialists don't win Wimbledon(twice), Aussie Open and the US Open. Before you say those were won a long time ago, look at the results and you'll see that Nadal is almost always in the Quarters/Semis of these events. You say he's a boring player to watch, but coming from someone that doesn't watch tennis, that doesn't mean anything.

[The_Yearning]

Nadal would have over 20 GS if Roger Federer didn't exist... and the same can be said for Federer (Even though he is only 3 off from 20, that's why he is the GOAT).

Nadal would probably have near 15 GS if it weren't for Novak discovering steroids.

[InfiniteBaskets]

:oldlol:

There is a reason Nadal isn't winning anything apart from Clay tournaments anymore.

He plays like prime Lleyton Hewitt on steroids. Hes got the stamina to keep hitting shots back over and waiting for his opponent to make mistakes. Most boring top 4 player I've seen in a long, long time.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. Lleyton Hewitt was a great pusher that used his stamina to track down shots until his opponent made an error. His opponent might hit more winners, might score more aces, but overall he'll also make more unforced errors and lose the match.

If you look at some of Nadal's match stats, you'll see he hits way more winners than his opponent. Nadal's topspin isn't just moonball topspin, it's the heaviest topspin by far on tour. The thing darts off the ground after the bounce and is very hard to chase down. On top of that, if you do chase it down, the spin is so heavy already, you'll have a hard time putting much pace on the return ball. You know Nadal is just chilling on his duece side, waiting to run around his forehand and smack a winner.

I am a Federer fan through and through, but over the years I've appreciated Nadal's ability to become more than just a guy with tree trunk legs and monster racquet head speed.

[gigantes]

Nadal would have over 20 GS if Roger Federer didn't exist... and the same can be said for Federer (Even though he is only 3 off from 20, that's why he is the GOAT).

Nadal would probably have near 15 GS if it weren't for Novak discovering steroids.
laver would have had over 20 GS if he'd merely been allowed to compete in them during his prime! but his all-time tournament wins still makes him my GOAT, not federer.

[raiderfan19]

I think that nadals existence has hampered Feds slam count more than feds existence has hampered nadals.

[imdaman99]

I think that nadals existence has hampered Feds slam count more than feds existence has hampered nadals.
definitely. nadals beat fed in a lot more finals than vice versa. plus federer has been good enough to get to the french open finals often. its just that when he sees nadal on the other side, he is mentally shook. how do you explain him getting to the finals and losing in 3 sets winning 3-4 games only? :facepalm

you dont go from good enough to beat everyone before the finals, to getting your ass handed to you so badly in the finals just like that. its just a mental edge nadals had on him i guess. even when fed was dominating everything, it was nadal beating him in the french open.

[raiderfan19]

It's a matchup issue. That said the fed man is in a lil trouble right now

[Mr Clutch Melo]

Simon playing good tennis :bowdown:

[gigantes]

It's a matchup issue. That said the fed man is in a lil trouble right now
good to see at least one person here who understands the issue! the popular idea that federer is somehow intimidated by nadal is simply ludicrous IMO.

[raiderfan19]

Btw the one thing I'd say about laver is that 3 of the 4 slams were on grass in his day. He simply didn't have to play on multiple surfaces.

As for fed va rafa, the biggest issue outside of the matchup issues that rafa entails for fed isn't rafa being in Feds head, it's Feds arrogance(which is one of the reasons that fed has been as dominant as he has been against everyone else)

[gigantes]

Btw the one thing I'd say about laver is that 3 of the 4 slams were on grass in his day. He simply didn't have to play on multiple surfaces.
laver's record-setting number of tournament wins were played across all surfaces. whatever he played on, he had tremendous success on. grand slams weren't exactly the top event of his day either IIRC, but he dominated pretty much equally across all the top events.



As for fed va rafa, the biggest issue outside of the matchup issues that rafa entails for fed isn't rafa being in Feds head, it's Feds arrogance(which is one of the reasons that fed has been as dominant as he has been against everyone else)
haha, guess we're not in agreement after all!

when i read some analysis of the issue by former pros, it confirmed for me my own experience against heavy topspinners -- it tends to get you thinking too much and playing less and less fluidly, which is murder when your game is based on fluidity and command, ala roger.

at first you start out in form, playing naturally, but the heavy topspin keeps magnifying your mistakes... the balls arc differently, they land differently, their speed and arc changes again as soon as they touch down, the timing of hitting them is unusual and you need to spend much more effort controlling them and less, playing your own game. any little mistakes you make tend to be magnified, which is disconcerting and demoralising at any level. then as the mistakes pile up, you start to spend more and more time in your head trying to make adjustments and less and less imposing your will. simply put, it's a style that breaks down players who are otherwise of comparable skill.

i've never seen a shred of evidence that federer either underestimated or was intimidated by nadal. you don't accomplish what he did by doing that against anyone. styles makes fights and the right matchup allows an underplayer to beat an overplayer all the time across all sports. it's as simple as that IMO. nadal's style on clay was simply too much for even federer to handle.

[enayes]

David Ferrer has been on CRUISE control. He's into the quarters after dismantling Kevin Anderson 6-3 6-1 6-1. Ferrer has not dropped a set. Looks like my buddy and I might be pulling in $1200.

[raiderfan19]

I agree, when I said that his arrogance caused the next biggest problem, what I meant was everyone knows Feds biggest and honestly only weakness is his backhand especially when it gets up above his shoulder. The thing is nobody but nadal is good enough to consistently get to his backhand. This is where Feds arrogance comes in. Fed always wants to dictate the match which makes sense because he's the greatest offensive tennis player of all time. Because of this fed always looks to be aggressive off of both wings. This is what has made him dangerous because while he will make errors off of his backhand he also hits winners. That being said nadals game is that you basically have to hit 2 or 3 winners to really get winners. With that being said fed would have been better off just pushing with his backhand and looking to be aggressive off the forehand but Feds pride never let him do that. That's what I meant about his arrogance, he could never let himself push, even off the weaker wing

[gigantes]

ah, okay. i will have to rewatch one of their clay matches sometime and look for that specifically. makes sense, tho.

in MMA you spend months training specifically for your opponent. i wonder if fed did much of that for rafa. i wonder if he really had that luxury given the busyness of his schedule and th3 race to collect ranking pts? i could def see some arrogance sprinkled in there, tho. it prolly would have had to have been a winter thing thing tho, and maybe that was his precious family getaway time in the bahamas or something.

[Kujo]

The success of the two Tommy's (Haas, and Robredo) has been the story of the open so far. So inspiring, though I expect Robredo's dream run to end against Ferrer.

Haas should be able to handle Youzhny.

Big time scare for Roger today. I know Fed has only owned Tsonga for the most part, but I have feeling Tsonga may beat him.

Regardless, whoever comes out of this side of draw won't beat Novak or Rafa anyway.

[enayes]

I also placed a $3 bet on Haas to win it all before the tourney started. Huge long shot but pays $1500 lol

[enayes]

Quarterfinals are set:

Top Half
#1 Djokovic v. #12 Haas

#3 Nadal v. #9 Wawrinka

Bottom Half
#32 Robredo v. #4 Ferrer

#6 Tsonga v. #2 Federer

[DuMa]

Nadal's cake is ridiculously over the top.

http://media.mwcradio.com/mimesis/2013-06/03/2013-06-03T163315Z_1_CBRE95219ZJ00_RTROPTP_3_SPORTS-US-TENNIS-OPEN-NADAL_JPG_475x310_q85.jpg

i guess nothing is too over the top for the king of clay, no?

[gigantes]

he's one of the greatest tennis players in history publically receiving an anniversary cake at one of the richest and most important tennis tournaments of the year. you work it out.

[arkain]

Federer in big trouble, not looking good for him.

[Sarcastic]

Federer out.


That Ferrer bet is looking pretty good.

[enayes]

Federer out.


That Ferrer bet is looking pretty good.

Pretty much the best case scenario that I could have hoped for so far. Ferrer has been cruising and gets to play Tsonga in the semis. Both men are yet to drop a set, it should be a very good match.

I also placed a $2 bet on Tsonga to go all the way, it pays $150. So if he does beat Ferrer I could still win something.

[raiderfan19]

Tsongas best is better than anyone else's. The thing is he so very rarely gets there which makes him much more vulnerable than his talent would make it appear

[bdreason]

I feel like Fed has lost some desire. Tsonga certainly has the game to beat Fed, but I didn't see any fire from Fed last match. After he lost that first set, he went into cruise control.

[raiderfan19]

I didn't watch the match but I seriously doubt that. The issue is I think he's running physically plus he just doesn't have the game he used to

[DuMa]

Fed will have these type of days because hes old now. He was overmatched and he continue to find opponents who will have these days against him.

Tsonga is a shoo-in for the final. Theres no way DAHVID has the power shots to threaten Tsonga. Jo will have to have the worst day in his career to lose to DAHVID FERRER

[raiderfan19]

I completely disagree. Tsonga is the favorite, but ferrer is the kind of guy who can give him trouble. Tsonga is more than capable of hitting enough ufes to lose

[Carbine]

Federer is soon 32.

Him even making quarter finals and semis in grand slams is remarkable. It's a young mans game and he's well past his prime.

[enayes]

Fed will have these type of days because hes old now. He was overmatched and he continue to find opponents who will have these days against him.

Tsonga is a shoo-in for the final. Theres no way DAHVID has the power shots to threaten Tsonga. Jo will have to have the worst day in his career to lose to DAHVID FERRER

Ferrer has a 2-1 record against Tsonga and is a better clay court player.

[Qwyjibo]

At this point, I hope Ferrer takes it all. It would be nice to see him win one. He's a very good player but one that just won't beat the top 4 when they are healthy. This is his best chance.

[enayes]

As expected Nadal crushed Wawrinka. Djokovic had a match point on Haas but Haas is refusing to lie down and just leveled the third set at 5-5.

edit: Djokovic clinches the 3rd 7-5 and wins the match.

Tsonga v. Ferrer and Nadal v. Djokovic on Friday.
I'm hoping for a Ferrer v. Nadal final with Ferrer taking out Nadal in 4 sets. 6-4 4-6 7-6 6-3

[Dolphin]

Tsongas best is better than anyone else's. The thing is he so very rarely gets there which makes him much more vulnerable than his talent would make it appear

Tsonga at his best on clay would beat Nadal at his best on clay?

[raiderfan19]

On clay probably not, but on hards or grass give me his best over anyone else's. He's a freakishly good athlete who's as fast/faster than anyone but maybe monfils when he's healthy. Plus he has monster ground strokes, huge first serve and surprisingly good touch. The problem is he's inconsistent but his best is a thing to behold. In short in the short times when he puts it all together he can move like the great defenders(nadal/djoker) and hit like the big guys

[Dolphin]

On clay probably not, but on hards or grass give me his best over anyone else's. He's a freakishly good athlete who's as fast/faster than anyone but maybe monfils when he's healthy. Plus he has monster ground strokes, huge first serve and surprisingly good touch. The problem is he's inconsistent but his best is a thing to behold. In short in the short times when he puts it all together he can move like the great defenders(nadal/djoker) and hit like the big guys

I don't think he can move and return sure winners like Nadal can. I've seen Nadal hit a million returns that he had no business even getting his racket on and hit a winner that looked like it came out of a cannon down the line. Saying Tsonga can do that at his best isn't really fair because what does that mean? One in every thirty instances he looks like Nadal on defense?

You can say Monfils and Tsonga (or Murray/Djokavic for that matter) cover as much or more ground than Nadal if you want, but what do they do with the ball once they get to it? Nadal at his best will do things with the ball that is better than what those guys can do with it. Again, a guy showing spurts of greatness does not mean that you can use that as the barometer of what his level of play is. We clearly have different ideas of how often a player has to show a level of play for that to be considered a realistic representation of his greatness. I'm sure I can find video evidence of Nadal doing stuff that I could say proves he is a god playing against mere mortals.

Let's put it this way, if Nadal and Tsonga meet at Wimbledon and you can't say that Tsonga has a decent chance of performing at his "best in world" level, or that he even has a good chance of out performing Nadal, then I can't agree with your opinion on what his best is. Again, we disagree on what the level of consistency has to be to actually say "this is so and so's realistic and expected best."

Roddick would serve aces that no one could touch at times. I'm not gonna say at his best he is the #1 all-time great because just maybe one day he will hit nothing but aces.

Tsonga hasn't even won a grand slam....he hasn't even performed at his so called best enough to win even one at this point.

[Carbine]

I think the point is if Tsonga played up to his potential, he would beat everyone. He can out hit pretty much everyone and plays defense and has the touch.

Obviously this means next to nothing in real world context because he barely ever plays up to that potential for a whole set, let along the amount of sets it would take to win. That's why he has no majors.

[Dolphin]

I think the point is if Tsonga played up to his potential, he would beat everyone. He can out hit pretty much everyone and plays defense and has the touch.

Obviously this means next to nothing in real world context because he barely ever plays up to that potential for a whole set, let along the amount of sets it would take to win. That's why he has no majors.

I understood his point. I just didn't agree that you can use such a small sample size to conclude that he is the best in the world when at his best.

Take someone like Kouznetsova. She at her best is a top 5 player in the women's game. She's proved it a lot more than Tsonga on the men's side. She's proven it enough to win a couple grand slams. That is a fair sample size. I'm not saying his proclamation is similar to me hitting a hole in one and claiming I'm PGA quality, but I feel it may be closer to that than saying Kouznetsova is top 5 player quality wise if she was mentally stronger. lol

[raiderfan19]

I'm saying for one whole match(which tsonga has done of multiple ocassions and btw dude is ranked 6 in the world and has been to a slam final so it's not like I'm talking about a bum) if you could guarantee me everyone in the game right now is playing at their absolute best(this ignores the fact that that isn't possible given that one players best would generally preclude the other from playing his best) I think tsonga beats everyone in the world on any surface other than clay. Does that have just a ton of relevance? Nope. But it does mean that fed losing to a guy like that doesn't mean he's done or anything.

I understand your point but I just disagree with what level of consistency is necessary to be considered someone's peak when that someone's lack of consistency has already been mentioned as a negative.

Also Moving and returning are different things. Tsonga isn't a good returner and even at his best he's nothing super special there. Nadal is a great returner. But once the point is going, tsongas ability to go get balls is crazy. The difference is due to his size he can't push and just keep running stuff down indefinitely.

Watch the last 3 sets he played against fed when he beat him at Wimbledon. Fed looked like a college kid hitting against a pro

[enayes]

So to sum up, Tsonga is a good player but not a great one.

[gigantes]

to sum up, that was a very interesting discussion to read. thanks, mates. love it when there's some analysis and breakdowns, not just the usual jaw-fest.

:cheers:

[imdaman99]

so what time is the nadal-djoker match? im in the US east coast, but if its at a decent hour i wanna watch it.

[raiderfan19]

So to sum up, Tsonga is a good player but not a great one.
To sum up, tsonga is one of the most talented players of all time, he just struggles to put it all together consistently. A guy is compare him too would be Marat safin but with much much better movement.

[Dolphin]

I'm saying for one whole match(which tsonga has done of multiple ocassions and btw dude is ranked 6 in the world and has been to a slam final so it's not like I'm talking about a bum) if you could guarantee me everyone in the game right now is playing at their absolute best(this ignores the fact that that isn't possible given that one players best would generally preclude the other from playing his best) I think tsonga beats everyone in the world on any surface other than clay. Does that have just a ton of relevance? Nope. But it does mean that fed losing to a guy like that doesn't mean he's done or anything.

I understand your point but I just disagree with what level of consistency is necessary to be considered someone's peak when that someone's lack of consistency has already been mentioned as a negative.

Also Moving and returning are different things. Tsonga isn't a good returner and even at his best he's nothing super special there. Nadal is a great returner. But once the point is going, tsongas ability to go get balls is crazy. The difference is due to his size he can't push and just keep running stuff down indefinitely.

Watch the last 3 sets he played against fed when he beat him at Wimbledon. Fed looked like a college kid hitting against a pro

I agree about Fed not being done. There are still only a handful of players that can beat him without it being kind of a shock. That's light years away from being done and it gives him a chance to win another grand slam if draws and injuries go his way...or if he conjures up some old time magic for a couple weeks, which isn't entirely out of the question yet.

Movement and return shots aren't the same, but Nadal is great at both. He may not possess the offensive array of shots that Fed had, but I can't recall someone who can make some of the shots he has made while on defense. I know on, say grass, that would effect Tsonga less, but I'm trying to convince myself that if he were to play Nadal, both at their best, that he wouldn't have trouble breaking him down consistently. Tsonga would want to end points quicker than Nadal regardless of his own moving ability, but there are times when Nadal seemingly just says "No...play on." Nadal at his best I think would find himself staying in points on Tsonga's serve more than the other way around.

I know it must seem like I'm a big Nadal fanboy (lol), but I actually have never really warmed to him. I always root for Fed or Djokovic over him....but I guess this convo gives me an opportunity to really focus on Tsonga and Nadal closely for the entire grass court season.

[DuMa]

Men's semifinals start 11AM EST on NBC on Friday. NBC coverage is blah. Ive always hated for tennis coverage. I'm not sure which semi final is going first. I am guessing Rafa/Nole on a hunch.

My predictions

Tsonga over Ferrer in 5.

Rafa over Nole in 4 sets but will take 4.5hrs. if it goes 5, well i think it could go the distance again. Probably 5+ hours. Both are really in form and it could end up being an epic match.

[bdreason]

I like Tsonga's game, and think he is capable of beating anyone if his game is clicking... but consistency is probably his biggest issue. I also highly doubt his first major will come on clay at the French Open, given that much of his game is predicated on his serve. His match against Ferrer could really go either way, but my money would be on the consistent vet in this contest.

In the end, I really don't see anyone beating Nadal barring some kind of injury; not Djoker, not Ferrer, and certainly not Tsonga.



On a side note, I've watched a few matches so far, both Men and Women, and was actually impressed with the pace of the court... then I realized the real reason it seems faster, is because the hard and grass courts have been slowed down so much. The French used to be the major where nobody could serve and volley their way through the tourney... now nobody serve and volley's on any surface. :oldlol:

[enayes]

To sum up, tsonga is one of the most talented players of all time, he just struggles to put it all together consistently. A guy is compare him too would be Marat safin but with much much better movement.

Every player on tour has games/matches where they show greatness. Saying that Tsonga "looks like" the best player when he is playing well is really pointless. Tsonga at his best does not beat Nadal/Joker at their best on any surface/

As far as the Safin comparison, I thought he just had mental problems when things weren't going his way. I didn't think Tsonga struggled with that. Anyway, Safin won two majors, so Tsonga would have to win one eventually to be compared to him and I don't think he will.

[enayes]

Men's semifinals start 11AM EST on NBC on Friday. NBC coverage is blah. Ive always hated for tennis coverage. I'm not sure which semi final is going first. I am guessing Rafa/Nole on a hunch.

My predictions

Tsonga over Ferrer in 5.

Rafa over Nole in 4 sets but will take 4.5hrs. if it goes 5, well i think it could go the distance again. Probably 5+ hours. Both are really in form and it could end up being an epic match.

I'm watching NBC right now. They are showing the Ferrer v. Tsonga match LIVE at 11am. The Nadal/Joker match is taking place at 7am eastern time and will only be shown on the Tennis Channel. Pretty lame.

[raiderfan19]

Every player on tour has games/matches where they show greatness. Saying that Tsonga "looks like" the best player when he is playing well is really pointless. Tsonga at his best does not beat Nadal/Joker at their best on any surface/

As far as the Safin comparison, I thought he just had mental problems when things weren't going his way. I didn't think Tsonga struggled with that. Anyway, Safin won two majors, so Tsonga would have to win one eventually to be compared to him and I don't think he will.
Safin played in one of the worst eras in men's tennis, the era between the Sampras/Agassi days and the fed/nadal days. I realize he beat fed in the semis at the Australian for one of his slams but it's a lot harder to win a slam now than it was then. Saying player a won a slam and is therefore better than player b who didn't isn't always correct.

[lefthook00]

Okay, so who is better between Rafa and Djokovic overall? I know Djokovic had a career year last year(or the year before?) and Rafa has been slipping/injured the past year or two..but I haven't really been following since maybe 2009-2010...

[bdreason]

I think Safin was a more talented player than Tsonga... but Marat was also a complete headcase. Probably the most emotionally unstable player in the history of the sport.


Fun fact: Marat's sister, Dinara Safina, was also ranked #1 in the world at one time.

[bdreason]

Okay, so who is better between Rafa and Djokovic overall? I know Djokovic had a career year last year(or the year before?) and Rafa has been slipping/injured the past year or two..but I haven't really been following since maybe 2009-2010...


This question is hard to answer, because Nadal just returned from injury, and although he's played fantastic, he's also only played 1 non-clay tourney (Indian Wells), and has actually lost to Djoker on clay (Monte Carlo).

I would personally still give Nadal the edge on clay, and Djoker the edge on grass and hard.

[veilside23]

people are so high on nadal and just disrespecting djokovic imo djoker is the anti nadal simply because his ground strokes is one of the best. and djoker service game is not a joke as well.

i still have djoker to win it all

[Lebowsky]

Anyone's got a decent stream for the match?

[yobore]

To sum up, tsonga is one of the most talented players of all time, he just struggles to put it all together consistently. A guy is compare him too would be Marat safin but with much much better movement.
Tsonga isn't quick enough to be "one of the most talented players of all time," just like Monfils can't hit hard enough, but always gets ragged on by American commentators for not living up to his so-called astronomical GOAT potential. I think there's a racial element to it.

[imdaman99]

rafa in trouble in the 5th set sigh... djok up a break 4-2... shit

[yobore]

Looking forward to Ferrer Tsonga defense vs power.

[yobore]

woops djokovic into the net on easy overhead

[yobore]

Get some freakin lights RG Tsonga's gonna have to play tomorrow

[TheReturn]

What a match

[alenleomessi]

this reminds me of that nadal-federer wimbledon match in 2008

[imdaman99]

the king of clay lives :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

impossible to beat this guy here i tell ya

[zizozain]

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ss

[GatorKid117]

Novak has gotta work on those overheads. God those were embarrassing.

What a match. Nadal's court coverage is still unreal. I wanna go play tennis now!

[yobore]

taxing game. Both the other guys have played really short matches all tournament. If their match can be finished today with the light the winner may have an advantage there.

[gigantes]

aw, too bad. but nole looked exhausted by the end and a bit frustrated with nadal's repeated time violations.

still, he almost beat the greatest clay court player of all time at rafa's favorite event.


okay okay, congrats rafa!! be sure to wrap this thing up, now! :cheers:

[Lebowsky]

Another fantastic page for Nadal's legacy. You may or may not like his game, but you must admit he produces some of the best matches ever on a consistent basis.

[RagaZ]

Another fantastic page for Nadal's legacy. You may or may not like his game, but you must admit he produces some of the best matches ever on a consistent basis.
This.

[Grinder]

Great match...always good to see Djoker go down. I'm hoping to see Tsonga get through and pull out an upset in the final. If Ferrer makes the final, it'll be another easy straight set win for Rafa.

[yobore]

bad start for tsonga

[gigantes]

the way that fans latch on to the tiniest of details in sport and magnify them in order to create heroes and villains never ceases to amaze me.

rafa, nole, roger, muzza and most other top players today are almost perfect gentlemen on and off the court, and yet the average fan seems to find a way to hate on one or more of them. amazing, and yet ordinary as dirt. or clay, in this case.

[Dolphin]

the way that fans latch on to the tiniest of details in sport and magnify them in order to create heroes and villains never ceases to amaze me.

rafa, nole, roger, muzza and most other top players today are almost perfect gentlemen on and off the court, and yet the average fan seems to find a way to hate on one or more of them. amazing, and yet ordinary as dirt. or clay, in this case.

Ya, not sure why Grinder thinks it's good to see Djokovic go down. Kinda like the kids who cry every time the Heat win a game. lol

[Lebowsky]

I really don't know why everyone here seems to be so enamored with Tsonga. To me he looks like a hard hitter, with a weak backhand and a weak mentality. He also makes too many unforced errors.
EDIT: very hard hitter.

[Grinder]

Ya, not sure why Grinder thinks it's good to see Djokovic go down. Kinda like the kids who cry every time the Heat win a game. lol

I've been watching the guy play since he first came on the scene against Coria at Roland Garros years ago. His gamesmanship and constant calling for the trainer whenever he needed to break momentum were annoying and unsportsmanlike.

Don't be a butthurt bitch because someone doesn't root for the same player you does. :oldlol:


I really don't know why everyone here seems to be so enamored with Tsonga. To me he looks like a hard hitter, with a weak backhand and a weak mentality. He also makes too many unforced errors.
EDIT: very hard hitter.

I've always been a fan of smash mouth tennis (probably because that's the way I played) and Tsonga seems to be one of the few players who can still successfully win at the highest level with that style of play. His backhand isn't great but he's quite skilled at the net and when he's clicking, it's amazing to watch. The 2 sets to love comeback against Federer at Wimbledon a few years back was a thing of beauty...he looked like he was in the twilight zone.

[Dolphin]

I've been watching the guy play since he first came on the scene against Coria at Roland Garros years ago. His gamesmanship and constant calling for the trainer whenever he needed to break momentum were annoying and unsportsmanlike.

Don't be a butthurt bitch because someone doesn't root for the same player you does. :oldlol:



I've always been a fan of smash mouth tennis (probably because that's the way I played) and Tsonga seems to be one of the few players who can still successfully win at the highest level with that style of play. His backhand isn't great but he's quite skilled at the net and when he's clicking, it's amazing to watch. The 2 sets to love comeback against Federer at Wimbledon a few years back was a thing of beauty...he looked like he was in the twilight zone.

I don't root for Djokovic....oooooh sucks, doesn't it.

:bowdown:

[Qwyjibo]

I've been watching the guy play since he first came on the scene against Coria at Roland Garros years ago. His gamesmanship and constant calling for the trainer whenever he needed to break momentum were annoying and unsportsmanlike.
+1

Never liked Djokovic and I enjoy watching him lose too. I also never found any of his antics (the serve imitations) endearing.

[Lebowsky]

I've been watching the guy play since he first came on the scene against Coria at Roland Garros years ago. His gamesmanship and constant calling for the trainer whenever he needed to break momentum were annoying and unsportsmanlike.

Don't be a butthurt bitch because someone doesn't root for the same player you does. :oldlol:



I've always been a fan of smash mouth tennis (probably because that's the way I played) and Tsonga seems to be one of the few players who can still successfully win at the highest level with that style of play. His backhand isn't great but he's quite skilled at the net and when he's clicking, it's amazing to watch. The 2 sets to love comeback against Federer at Wimbledon a few years back was a thing of beauty...he looked like he was in the twilight zone.

Well maybe I just haven't seen enough of him playing well, but as of now, the difference in skill and mental strength between Ferrer and him seems quite considerable to me.

[Lebowsky]

I'm really happy for Ferrer, he's played really well today and he's finally managed to reach his first Gram Slam final. Congratulations.

[Grinder]

Well maybe I just haven't seen enough of him playing well, but as of now, the difference in skill and mental strength between Ferrer and him seems quite considerable to me.

Surface is a huge factor in tennis and clay is Ferrer's best while it's Tsonga's worst. The clay neutralizes Tsonga's power to an extent and it supplements Ferrer's grinding and scrapping style and allows him to extend the points.

Nothing but respect for Ferrer though. He is not the most talented or powerful guy, but nobody works harder than he does.

[gigantes]

I've been watching the guy play since he first came on the scene against Coria at Roland Garros years ago. His gamesmanship and constant calling for the trainer whenever he needed to break momentum were annoying and unsportsmanlike.
don't be insane.

djoker had a lot of health difficulties and training problems when he was coming up. he got injured all the time and gassed in long matches. then he addressed all those issues and you'd almost think he was the exact opposite now.

today he was clearly struggling with some physical issue and yet AFAIK didn't call the trainer at any point.

don't judge someone by ancient history. we all grow and become better people if we try. federer used to be an arrogant brat as a junior, apparently, but i'm not sitting here with a chip on my shoulder about it.

[DuMa]

http://i.imgur.com/m2u6cWd.jpg

[Numero 10]

^funny, because he was still arguing about that on the changeover as if it were a bad call.

[enayes]

Ferrer in the final! I'm close!

[imdaman99]

Ferrer in the final! I'm close!
if you knew it was nadal that would be standing in ferrer's way, would you have thrown away those $5? :oldlol:

or do you still win money for him getting to the final? :cheers:

[enayes]

if you knew it was nadal that would be standing in ferrer's way, would you have thrown away those $5? :oldlol:

or do you still win money for him getting to the final? :cheers:

When I made the bet I thought Ferrer had a great chance to make the Final and I knew he would most likely be up against Nadal/Djokovic. My $50 bet to win over $1200 was made with this in mind. I only win if Ferrer wins.

At this point if you made a $50 bet on Ferrer you'd win $230. So I made the bet hoping it would get to where it is now.

[zizozain]

S. Williams :banana: :applause: :applause: :banana:


Sharapova forgot to shave her mustache today :facepalm

[GOBB]

Serena best women's tennis player ever

[gigantes]

Serena best women's tennis player ever
steffi graf was still more accomplished when i compared stats half a year ago. navritilova may be better than either, however.


steffi's also a professional on and off the court. i talked about ppl overreacting to slight flaws among the men; serena's case is more like the opposite... trying to figure out how to like a monster.

[raiderfan19]

There is a great hedging opportunity for you in the final. Throw a few hundred on nadal to win. Either way you make money

[plowking]

Serena best women's tennis player ever

:oldlol:

Not even close.

[enayes]

Men's Final 9AM on NBC. Watch Ferrer win.

[prodigyjazz]

steffi graf was still more accomplished when i compared stats half a year ago. navritilova may be better than either, however.


steffi's also a professional on and off the court. i talked about ppl overreacting to slight flaws among the men; serena's case is more like the opposite... trying to figure out how to like a monster.

I was watching a special on tennis channel ranking the top 100 greatest tennis players of all time and they had Steffi at #3 and Martina at #4. How much you factor in the importance of winning doubles which some would say give Martina the edge. But yeah both are still better than serena.


Men's Final 9AM on NBC. Watch Ferrer win.
lol, yeah sure

[alenleomessi]

Fed has 17 grand slams ( most in tennis history for men ), while Nadal will have 12 if he wins today and is 5 years younger.

Yeah he has injuries all the time, but its very possible that he can surpass Fed.
Head vs head he is already much better - 20-10 in all encounters, 8-2 in grand slams, the only two losses at Wimbledon.

Are we looking at the new GOAT?

[plowking]

Fed has 17 grand slams ( most in tennis history for men ), while Nadal will have 12 if he wins today and is 5 years younger.

Yeah he has injuries all the time, but its very possible that he can surpass Fed.
Head vs head he is already much better - 20-10 in all encounters, 8-2 in grand slams, the only two losses at Wimbledon.

Are we looking at the new GOAT?

Even if he does get 17 or more, hes not the GOAT. Not when 70% of your titles will be French Open wins.

Hes not particularly close either. Djokovic is a better player than him, as are a few other greats that have less titles than him.

[BurningHammer]

A half-naked dude lit a flare and rushed into the court. :oldlol:

[alenleomessi]

Even if he does get 17 or more, hes not the GOAT. Not when 70% of your titles will be French Open wins.

Hes not particularly close either. Djokovic is a better player than him, as are a few other greats that have less titles than him.
i see...


crappy final, ferrer doesnt know what hit him

[enayes]

A half-naked dude lit a flare and rushed into the court. :oldlol:

He ran pretty close to Nadal, luckily security grabbed him and slammed him off the court in a hurry. It's not looking goofor for Ferrer but he hasn't played poorly, Nadal has been hitting his shots.

[enayes]

Even if he does get 17 or more, hes not the GOAT. Not when 70% of your titles will be French Open wins.

Hes not particularly close either. Djokovic is a better player than him, as are a few other greats that have less titles than him.

I agree that Nadal should not be mentioned in GOAT discussions, at least not at this time. But you can't just say Djokovic is better than him without backing it up. Nadal has a winning record against him and has won many more tournaments. Nadal is less than a year older so they've been around about the same amount of time as well. Djokovic has a long way to to go before he can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Nadal.

[enayes]

For anyone not watching, Nadal is leading Ferrer 6-3, 6-2, 3-3.

[BurningHammer]

Rafa is taking this, again.

[imdaman99]

After he retires, they should rename this Rafael Nadal stadium.

Ferrer doesn't lose a set before the finals, doesn't win 1 against Rafa.

[Lebowsky]

So proud of my fellow Majorcan. Such a winner and a gentleman. Congratulations.

[enayes]

Congrats to Ferrer for making his first major final and to Nadal for winning his 8th French Open and 12th Grand Slam 6-3, 6-2, 6-3.

I would have loved to see Ferrer breakthrough but Rafa truly is the king of clay. Hard to imagine someone ever dominating the way he has in Paris. No money for me but VAMOS RAFA!

[Rubio2Gasol]

So proud of my fellow Majorcan. Such a winner and a gentleman. Congratulations.

:pimp:

[Rubio2Gasol]

It's interesting, 2/4 of the tournaments were on clay he would have 17 already. Djokovic is no doubt the better player, most complete groundstrokes maybe in history, and Federer, not much you can say that man is a champion. But if the scales were equalized, Rafa would be right there with him and maybe ahead.

[Doctor Rivers]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMVM-3sCYAAUVGI.jpg:large

[DuMa]

King of Clay is an underrated title for him. DOMINATOR of Clay is more fitting.

[gigantes]

I was watching a special on tennis channel ranking the top 100 greatest tennis players of all time and they had Steffi at #3 and Martina at #4. How much you factor in the importance of winning doubles which some would say give Martina the edge. But yeah both are still better than serena.
do you remember who they had as the top two? margaret court or someone like that?



I agree that Nadal should not be mentioned in GOAT discussions, at least not at this time. But you can't just say Djokovic is better than him without backing it up. Nadal has a winning record against him and has won many more tournaments. Nadal is less than a year older so they've been around about the same amount of time as well. Djokovic has a long way to to go before he can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Nadal.
you were making some sense until that last sentence.

rafa hit his full stride from what, age 18? djoko and muzza only hit theirs
in their mid-20's. rafa is more and more injured as he goes on. djoko has
been the #1 player of the year the past couple years and still seems to be
improving a bit. no other player in the world comes as close to consistently
challenging the #1 clay-court player on his favorite surface, and then at
his favorite event, eh? and with six slams and one of the best seasons in
history, he just makes the conversation of tennis greats IMO.

so i think djoko can safely be mentioned with nadal, even tho it will have
to be in a lesser role at this point.

[Sarcastic]

If Rafa gets to 17 or more, he definitely has a claim to GOAT considering his H2H record with Federer. The claim can be made if he even gets to 15.

[plowking]

If Rafa gets to 17 or more, he definitely has a claim to GOAT considering his H2H record with Federer. The claim can be made if he even gets to 15.

He has no claim.
His head to head is as good as it is because a large chunk have been played on clay. You don't become GOAT for dominating one surface.

[Sarcastic]

He has no claim.
His head to head is as good as it is because a large chunk have been played on clay. You don't become GOAT for dominating one surface.


He has won on every surface. He even beat Federer on grass.

He held all 4 majors at the same time, something Fed never did.

[The_Yearning]

King of Clay is an underrated title for him. DOMINATOR of Clay is more fitting.

Umm no? King of Clay is as good as it gets.

Lets see how Nadal does at Wimbledon and US Open before we say he is truly back. It would be funny if he loses Wimbledon and blames his knees again. Steroid junkie.

[plowking]

He has won on every surface. He even beat Federer on grass.

He held all 4 majors at the same time, something Fed never did.

He has won on every surface, and outside of the 8 French Open titles he has won a total of 4, all of them coming in an era where Fed was his only competition.
Hes a limited player that can only win on slow courts or when playing against Fed who he has built a mental edge against after whooping his ass on clay so much. Hes a great player, but not nearly as good as the many titles he has suggest.

[Sarcastic]

He has won on every surface, and outside of the 8 French Open titles he has won a total of 4, all of them coming in an era where Fed was his only competition.
Hes a limited player that can only win on slow courts or when playing against Fed who he has built a mental edge against after whooping his ass on clay so much. Hes a great player, but not nearly as good as the many titles he has suggest.


Funny that you bring up competition, because Fed had some of the easiest competition ever in over half of his Slams. How many times did he beat up on Lleyton Hewitt, Barghdadis, and past prime Agassi? Or how about the biggest mental midget ever, Andy Roddick?

[bdreason]

Grats to Nadal for another French Open title... but nobody who actually watches Tennis would rank him over Federer... nobody.

[alenleomessi]

Grats to Nadal for another French Open title... but nobody who actually watches Tennis would rank him over Federer... nobody.
funny coming from an american, a nation that basically made all those rankings based on TITLES.

if he surpasses him in titles, he will more titles + a better record head to head.

sure he might be a more complete player than nadal, but so is lebron than 90% of the guys in front of him in an all time list, i guess no one watches basketball?

[gigantes]

i watch basketball, but don't know what the difference is between that and futbol (soccer) anymore. nowadays both seem to be about winning flopping contests... plus a little bit of running around and doing stuff with a ball.

[enayes]

He has won on every surface, and outside of the 8 French Open titles he has won a total of 4, all of them coming in an era where Fed was his only competition.
Hes a limited player that can only win on slow courts or when playing against Fed who he has built a mental edge against after whooping his ass on clay so much. Hes a great player, but not nearly as good as the many titles he has suggest.

This is a really dumb post. You are contradicting yourself. If Nadal is such a clay court specialist then why does he have a winning record against every player in the Top 20? He has the ability to beat anyone on any surface in any match. You are using the fact he dominates on clay against him, when even without his majestic stats on clay he would still be one of the best players around. Start watching tennis before you try and discuss it.

[raiderfan19]

Fed is tied for the most slams ever at every slam but the French. Nadal only has more than 1 at 1 other slam.

[Carbine]

If Nadal gets to 17 slams, he's going to be generally rated higher than Federer.

Their H2H would be the deciding factor.

[raiderfan19]

If Nadal gets to 17 slams, he's going to be generally rated higher than Federer.

Their H2H would be the deciding factor.
The h2h is basically even outside of clay.

That being said it won't matter. Nadal isn't going to win 5 more(and I think fed gets another one)

[Carbine]

He's 8-2 vs. Federer in Grand Slams. He has beaten Fed on Feds most dominant surface, Grass. Nadal also is undefeated vs. Fed on another preferred surface, the hard courts of the Aussie Open.

It won't matter if he doesn't get to 17 though. He's still fairly young, only turned 27...and still in his prime. I could see it happening.

[raiderfan19]

Just looked it up, fed is up by 1 match in the h2h outside of clay. And they are tied at 2 slam finals apiece outside of clay.

The thing is, just winning so many slams isn't Feds only accomplishment. It's all the year end championships, all the consecutive semis and then quarters.

[Sarcastic]

The h2h is basically even outside of clay.

That being said it won't matter. Nadal isn't going to win 5 more(and I think fed gets another one)


Clay is a real surface that they play actual tournaments on, and even a Grand Slam is played on it. Nadal has a better H2H record in Slam finals on other surfaces as well. The only thing that has ever held him back is injuries. When he has been healthy, he has been the best player in tennis by far.


Again, he is the only player to hold ALL FOUR SLAMS at the same time, in this generation. That is an absolutely amazing feat.

[enayes]

Rafael Nadal

8 French Opens.
12 Grand Slams.
Won All 4 Grand Slams.
17 Grand Slam Finals.
24 ATP Masters 1000 Titles.
57 Titles in Total.
1 Olympic Gold Medal.
20-10 Head to Head against Roger Federer.
20-15 Head to Head against Novak Djokovic.
13-5 Head to Head against Andy Murray.

All this and still counting...........

Nadal is definitely in the run for the Greatest Of All Time.

(from tennis recruiting.net)

[raiderfan19]

He didn't ever hold all 4 at the same time so... Yeah quit counting that

Edit also nadal is not 8-2 vs fed in slam finals. He's 6-2. 4-0 at the French, 1-2 at wimbledon and 1-0 at Australian.

[Sarcastic]

He didn't ever hold all 4 at the same time so... Yeah quit counting that


Your're right on that. What was the "Rafa Slam" they used to mention then?

[raiderfan19]

Your're right on that. What was the "Rafa Slam" they used to mention then?
Nothing it's just a career slam(which fed also has).

[Sarcastic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer#Federer_vs._Nadal


Interesting.

Fed leads 2-1 on grass, and 4-0 on indoor hard courts. Nadal leads 13-2 on clay, and 6-2 on outdoor hard courts. Considering that indoor hard court is the least important surface, Nadal has the huge advantage on the important surfaces.

[raiderfan19]

Rafael Nadal

8 French Opens.
12 Grand Slams.
Won All 4 Grand Slams.
17 Grand Slam Finals.
24 ATP Masters 1000 Titles.
57 Titles in Total.
1 Olympic Gold Medal.
20-10 Head to Head against Roger Federer.
20-15 Head to Head against Novak Djokovic.
13-5 Head to Head against Andy Murray.

All this and still counting...........

Nadal is definitely in the run for the Greatest Of All Time.

(from tennis recruiting.net)
He's definitely in the conversation. He's clearly behind fed but since we're speaking hypothetically of if he got to 17 I think it would depend on how he got there. If he got 5 more frenchs? No. If he got 3 more frenchs another Wimbledon and another hard slam? He'd be the first player with 3 slams on each surface. Its honestly just not worth thinking about till we see what happens

[Sarcastic]

Nothing it's just a career slam(which fed also has).


I remember what it was now. It was the fact that he held the 3 summer slams in the same year (Fr, W, US), all being played within 3 months of each other. Australia being the anomaly, as it's played in January, and the other 3 are played from May-Aug.

[Carbine]

It doesn't matter how he gets there, 17 is 17 is 17 is 17.

[raiderfan19]

It doesn't matter cus he won't but in terms of career greatness it absolutely matters

[raiderfan19]

It doesn't matter how he gets there, 17 is 17 is 17 is 17.
Then why would nadals 17 be greater than Feds??

[plowking]

Nadal isn't winning shit outside of the French Open in the next 3 or 4 years, so the only ones you can count are the French Open titles hes going to amass. And with Djokovic slowly figuring him out on that surface, its only a matter of time before he starts losing on there too.

He might get to 14 titles. Hes not beating Djokovic or Murray on grass, and he sure as hell isn't touching Djokovic on hardcourt.

[raiderfan19]

Has djoker really earned "not beating him" status??? I don't think he's quite there

[alenleomessi]

Nadal isn't winning shit outside of the French Open in the next 3 or 4 years, so the only ones you can count are the French Open titles hes going to amass. And with Djokovic slowly figuring him out on that surface, its only a matter of time before he starts losing on there too.

He might get to 14 titles. Hes not beating Djokovic or Murray on grass, and he sure as hell isn't touching Djokovic on hardcourt.
so if nadal and federer cant win, basically it means djoker will win all the grand slams in the next 4-5 years which would mean he might get to have 17 too :biggums:

[Sarcastic]

so if nadal and federer cant win, basically it means djoker will win all the grand slams in the next 4-5 years which would mean he might get to have 17 too :biggums:


No one that gets to 17 will ever be better than Federer, according to Federer fans.

[Sarcastic]

Then why would nadals 17 be greater than Feds??


H2H record

[raiderfan19]

H2H record
If 17 is 17 is 17 that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that's the case, I'm simply stating the obvious that how you get there matters.

Also while I think Feds the goat, I don't think Sampras is second(Borg then nadal then Sampras for me) number of slams was never considered the goat meter until Sampras passed Emerson. Hell Borg skipped a ton of Australians.

But fed also having the most finals, the most semis, and the most quarters along with the weeks at number 1(the most damning argument for me against nadal, he was only the clear cut best player for 15 months or so) and his myriad other accomplishments to go with the 17 slams do it for me.

[Sarcastic]

If 17 is 17 is 17 that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that's the case, I'm simply stating the obvious that how you get there matters.

Also while I think Feds the goat, I don't think Sampras is second(Borg then nadal then Sampras for me) number of slams was never considered the goat meter until Sampras passed Emerson. Hell Borg skipped a ton of Australians.

But fed also having the most finals, the most semis, and the most quarters along with the weeks at number 1(the most damning argument for me against nadal, he was only the clear cut best player for 15 months or so) and his myriad other accomplishments to go with the 17 slams do it for me.



I look at tennis the way I do boxing, since they are both H2H. In order to be the best, you have to beat the best. When I look over Federer's peak and prime, I don't see any great names that he beat. When Nadal finally rose up, Fed wilted and got beat repeatedly. To me he is like Roy Jones Jr. Aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but destroyed only chumps and never beat an all time great.


And just like boxing, I think it comes down to personal preference. Some say Ali is the GOAT. Some say it's Sugar Ray Robinson. Federer's domination during the mid 2000's was obviously one of the most impressive feats ever in tennis, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for someone to pass him.

[LJJ]

And just like boxing, I think it comes down to personal preference. Some say Ali is the GOAT. Some say it's Sugar Ray Robinson. Federer's domination during the mid 2000's was obviously one of the most impressive feats ever in tennis, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for someone to pass him.

Lol no. If you consider Ali the GOAT you don't know what you are talking about. Period.

[Sarcastic]

Lol no. If you consider Ali the GOAT you don't know what you are talking about. Period.


There are millions and millions of people who do. I can't think of a more respected athlete on the planet than Ali.

[Carbine]

Nadal has beaten these guys in the finals of slams:

Roger 6 times
Djokovic 2 times
Ferrer
Berdych
Soderling
Puerta

Roger has beaten:

Andy Roddick 4 times
Murray 3 times
Nadal 2 times
Safin
Soderling
Joker
Gonzelez
Baghdadis
Aggasi
Hewitt
Philippoussis

I think Federer played in an easier Era overall, he didn't have to deal with any legit all-time great in their primes until Nadal came along, and he already had 7 by then.

On the flip side Nadal had to deal with prime Federer...and then the rise of the Joker and Murray into the big 4.

However to say Federer destroyed chumps and never beat an all-time great....that's just foolish.

[raiderfan19]

Roddick would be considered an all time great grass/hard courted if he hadn't played at the same time as fed. Safin was a better version of soderling. Basically all that list proves is that nadal is unquestionably the best clay courter ever which we already knew. Outside of the 4 over fed at the French it's almost exactly even.

[raiderfan19]

Also nadal won his first slam at the 05 French open. Fed had won 4 slams at the point. Fed has won 13 from then, nadal has won 11. So the era argument used in nadals favor is just... Wrong

[Carbine]

Nadal wasn't Nadal right from the start though. He didn't just enter the tour and be in his prime from day one. It took him until midway through '06 to make the leap, IMO.....and wasn't until 2008 where he reached his full prime.

[raiderfan19]

Nadal wasn't Nadal right from the start though. He didn't just enter the tour and be in his prime from day one. It took him until midway through '06 to make the leap, IMO.....and wasn't until 2008 where he reached his full prime.
By the same token, fed wasn't in his prime anymore by 2008. Even if you want to count his first non French slam, it was I believe the 08 wimbledon. Fed has still won more non French open slams since then, than nadal.

[Carbine]

I think Fed was in his prime in 2008. He was only 26-27 at that point if my math is right.

[DuMa]

Nadal can certainly reach 17 and be called GOAT with his h2h record with Fed remaining lopsided as it is. I dont see why anyone can doubt how he can win other GS besides RG. He has done it before and has consistently reached SF and Finals in those tournies when he isnt injured.

That said, I have no idea how the rest of Nadal's career will play out. He really needs to stay injury free and i think the best way to do it is to play less tournaments and make getting the #1 ranking a less priority. Its difficult because Rafa values the #1 seeding heavily.

[raiderfan19]

There's one other thing that goes with nadal and goat discussion which we haven't mentioned. There have long been rumors that he's on peds and that he's failed drug tests several times(and he's openly complained about drug testing) if it is true, it will come out. I'm not saying it is, but it is something else that could effect this discussion

[raiderfan19]

For the record there have also been rumors fed is doping too as well as fed and Murray.

And ferrer is absolutely on peds.

[Lebowsky]

For the record there have also been rumors fed is doping too as well as fed and Murray.

And ferrer is absolutely on peds.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that most everyone in professional sports is on some sort of PEDs.

[raiderfan19]

I generally don't and I'm really not even doing that now(though I'd bet you my house that djoker and ferrer have/are using peds) I'm simply saying that if it comes out that one of them did for sure, it will effect this discussion

[Sarcastic]

Roddick would be considered an all time great grass/hard courted if he hadn't played at the same time as fed. Safin was a better version of soderling. Basically all that list proves is that nadal is unquestionably the best clay courter ever which we already knew. Outside of the 4 over fed at the French it's almost exactly even.


http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/470/852/4ce.gif

[DuMa]

Rafa and Nole are the two biggest suspects for PEDs. the stamina Rafa portrays is unreal.

and Nole's sudden improvement in 2010 to 2011 was visibly amazing. almost too good to be true. his claim is a gluten-free diet but i dont think that works that much of a difference