LeBron v.s. Kobe as ALPHA

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe took the Lakers to the Finals for 3 straight seasons (2008 - 2010)

He had a disappointing showing in 2008, and then won 2 straight along w/ 2x FMVPs and 1x MVP

LeBron is on pace to have taken the Heat to the Finals for 3 seasons (2011 - 2013)

He had a disappointing showing in 2011 (abysmal actually), and then if he wins this seasons will have won 2 straight as well to go along with presumably 2x FMVPs and will have acquired 2x MVPs.

If this ends up being the case, LeBron will have matched Kobe's alpha abilities, but will have 3x more MVPs.

Kobe will have 3 more rings, but generally regarded as a sidekick. Are we to assume LeBron couldn't have won 3 rings at comparable ages, say playing alongside Duncan?

2000 - 2002 Bryant is the equivalent in age and experience to 2007 - 2009 LeBron. I'm fairly certain Bron could have won championships under a similar context with that kind of Shaq like help.

If LeBron wins this year, do most people have him surpass Kobe in the all-time rankings?

[IncarceratedBob]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.

[dh144498]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.

:lol

[TheReal Kendall]

:facepalm

Why are we doing this again?

[lakerspng]

anyone who calls Kobe a sidekick for his first 3 rings, needs to be lobotomized.

that is all.

[Jacks3]

29/7/6/2 and 27/6/5/2 are sidekick numbers now. Oh lawd.

[TonyMontana]

More like Gasol vs LeBron as an alpha.

Both joined teams that couldn't get past the first round.

Both took the team to the Finals in their first year.

Both won a championship in their second years.

Gotta see how LeBron finishes this year, but Gasol won a championship in his 3rd year too.

[STATUTORY]

Kobe was on a superteam with Shaq and wanted to win by himself

Lebron couldn't win by himself and carpetbagged to a superteam

that's the difference between them. Kobe needs to be the alpha, Lebron is looking for a father figure

[TheMarkMadsen]

anyone who calls Kobe a sidekick for his first 3 rings, needs to be lobotomized.

that is all.

29/7/6 in 01 playoffs.

25 5 5 average durring 3 peat

"Sidekick"

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe was on a superteam with Shaq and wanted to win by himself

Lebron couldn't win by himself and carpetbagged to a superteam

that's the difference between them. Kobe needs to be the alpha, Lebron is looking for a father figure
:pimp:

[dh144498]

More like Gasol vs LeBron as an alpha.

Both joined teams that couldn't get past the first round.

Both took the team to the Finals in their first year.

Both won a championship in their second years.

Gotta see how LeBron finishes this year, but Gasol won a championship in his 3rd year too.

I see RG is back from the rehab.

:lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

I see RG is back from the rehab.

:lol
:oldlol:

[Jlamb47]

Kobe > Lebron regardless if he wins this year

[dh144498]

Kobe was on a superteam with Shaq and wanted to win by himself

Lebron couldn't win by himself and carpetbagged to a superteam

that's the difference between them. Kobe needs to be the alpha, Lebron is looking for a father figure

"father figure." :roll:
:applause:

[tpols]

Swoosh going from hating on Bron to licking his nuts.

Rep ain't back yet bruh:oldlol:

[b1imtf]

29/7/6 in 01 playoffs.

25 5 5 average durring 3 peat

"Sidekick"
When prime Shaq's on your team, I guess :lol

[Heavincent]

My last username was MiamiThrice, not "RG". Nope not pauk either. or sicktheshocker. OR numbersix. MiamiThrice.

Accusing people of being someone else seems to be the go-to when you got nothing to say.

We all know it's you RG. You're not fooling anybody :oldlol:

[Levity]

My last username was MiamiThrice, not "RG". Nope not pauk either. or sicktheshocker. OR numbersix. MiamiThrice.



MiamiThrice's name carries the same weight and disdain as the other names you mentioned. Nothing to be proud about

[K Xerxes]

Well, my all-time rankings are based on who is actually a better player over the course of careers, not necessarily who can collect the most accolades with different contexts.

'12-present LeBron is better than version Kobe, but Kobe is still higher than LeBron due to longevity. When his career is over, LeBron will be greater than Kobe, but not yet. If LeBron finishes off this season and dominates the next as well, probably then.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Swoosh going from hating on Bron to licking his nuts.

Rep ain't back yet bruh:oldlol:
I'm literally just asking everyone's opinions.

[dh144498]

When prime Shaq's on your team, I guess :lol

while sharing the ball with shaq and Shaq still being able to dominate.
2000: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 21-5-4
2001: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 29-7-6
2002: Shaq: 29-13-3 Kobe: 27-6-5
Shaq made virtually no sacrifice in his stats even when Kobe's stats went up.

Mean while Lebron's 2 other stars:
2011-2013 wade: 21-5-5 down from 26-5-6 before the join
2011-2013 Bosh: 16-8-1 down from 21-9-3

:coleman:

[Harison]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.

Touche :lol

But to be fair, Kobe is in one of the best franchises in NBA, had an All-time great coach and teammates.

Not exactly situation Lebron was in, however if he was as driven as Kobe, he would have won at least one ring with Cavs already. He got beaten as a favorite couple of times, and mostly because he disappeared. Place Jordan instead of LBJ in those Cavs, and he would have had multiple rings by now.

[NumberSix]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.
Remember when Magic had to leave the Lakers because his teammates sucked?

Yeah, me neither.

[Kobr]

My last username was MiamiThrice, not "RG". Nope not pauk either. or sicktheshocker. OR numbersix. MiamiThrice.

Accusing people of being someone else seems to be the go-to when you got nothing to say.

and before MiamiThrice, it was 32Dayz. A shitty poster in all versions.

[TheMarkMadsen]

while sharing the ball with shaq and Shaq still being able to dominate.
2000: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 21-5-4
2001: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 29-7-6
2002: Shaq: 29-13-3 Kobe: 27-6-5
Shaq made virtually no sacrifice in his stats even when Kobe's stats went up.

Mean while Lebron's 2 other stars:
2011-2013 wade: 21-5-5 down from 26-5-6 before the join
2011-2013 Bosh: 16-8-1 down from 21-9-3

:coleman:


But but but Legawd makes his teammates better & Kobe has chucked his way to 0 rings.


Btw :lol at people who like to pretend like Kobes elite longevity is something just handed out & very common.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Remember when Magic had to leave the Lakers because his teammates sucked?

Yeah, me neither.

Yeah those cavs teammates sucked so bad that they were #1 seeds with 60+ regualr season wins 2 years in a row.

How many times had Lebrons miami teams been #1 seed or had 60+ win regular seasons b2b?

[TonyMontana]

while sharing the ball with shaq and Shaq still being able to dominate.
2000: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 21-5-4
2001: Shaq: 31-15-3 Kobe: 29-7-6
2002: Shaq: 29-13-3 Kobe: 27-6-5
Shaq made virtually no sacrifice in his stats even when Kobe's stats went up.

Mean while Lebron's 2 other stars:
2011-2013 wade: 21-5-5 down from 26-5-6 before the join
2011-2013 Bosh: 16-8-1 down from 21-9-3

:coleman:

Prime Shaq is a low post bigman, something the Heat dont have. A guy like him fits on every team.

Wade played the same game as LeBron did, just not as good. You can't have both of them doig the same thing. Its like having Kobe play with Allen Iverson and expect both of them to put up the same numbers as they would by themselves.

Bosh just put up numbers on a 30 win team. Even guys like Mike James can crack 20 PPG on bad teams.



Yeah those cavs teammates sucked so bad that they were #1 seeds with 60+ regualr season wins 2 years in a row.

How many times had Lebrons miami teams been #1 seed or had 60+ win regular seasons b2b?

how did those Cavs teams do when LeBron left?

sit down slave.....

[TheMarkMadsen]

Prime Shaq is a low post bigman, something the Heat dont have. A guy like him fits on every team.

Wade played the same game as LeBron did, just not as good. You can't have both of them doig the same thing. Its like having Kobe play with Allen Iverson and expect both of them to put up the same numbers as they would by themselves.

Bosh just put up numbers on a 30 win team. Even guys like Mike James can crack 20 PPG on bad teams.



how did those Cavs teams do when LeBron left?

sit down slave.....


Did Mike james ever lead a team to the playoffs?

When Lebron left the cavs did he or did he not take their starting center with him? Did the GM leave the cavs? Did Mo play for the cavs or the clippers? Did mike brown coach the cavs or the Lakers? Was Delonte west still on the team? Did andy V play in more than 30 games? Did MANNY HARRIS start for clevland at one point? Was Baron Davis on the cavs in 2010?

Answer those questions and maybe you'll get an answer for what happened after Lebron left

[AlphaWolf24]

- Kobe has always been Alpha...sh!t when he was a teenager ....in crunchtime during the playofs all the Vets looked to Kobe as the man.....10 year vets were shook as hell in the playoffs passing to Kobe during the most important parts of the games.

Kobes role since day 1 was the Alpha Wolf of the pack.....let the other Dogs touch the ball during playtime.....but when sh!ts get real...Let Kobe take the team home.

- Lebron just last year started to have that Alpha in his eye...before that he was Beta made.....even leaving a 64 win team has beta written all over it.

- I'm proud doe of LBJ taking the Alpha role from Wade.....surprised me alot

[9erempiree]

This isn't really up for debate. Clearly Kobe.

One thing that ends the debate is the fact that Lebron likes to flop.

[TonyMontana]

Did Mike james ever lead a team to the playoffs?

When Lebron left the cavs did he or did he not take their starting center with him? Did the GM leave the cavs? Did Mo play for the cavs or the clippers? Did mike brown coach the cavs or the Lakers? Was Delonte west still on the team? Did andy V play in more than 30 games? Did MANNY HARRIS start for clevland at one point? Was Baron Davis on the cavs in 2010?

Answer those questions and maybe you'll get an answer for what happened after Lebron left

Bosh is a third option on a good team. A 2nd option if your first option is a legend like LeBron James. Two playoff appearences(both first round exits) in 7 years isn't what I'd expect from a "franchise player".

And the fact is that if LeBron stays in Cleveland instead of Miami they still win 50+ games and are considered the favorite in the East just because they have LeBron James. Whatever East team got LeBron would have been the favorite in the conference. Even if it was the Bobcats. Thats how good he is.

[Twiens]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

First off. Comparing Kobe's 08 finals performance to Lebron's 11 finals performance is a joke. I'm not saying that the OP was really doing this...but if anyone tries...please don't. Kobe was playing a better team with less help and played much better than Lebron.

If Lebron wins the title and finals mvp this year then I'll move him even with Kobe probably. But he has to do that in my opinion. I don't think Kobe ever played at the level we've seen Lebron play at the last 2 years...especially in the playoffs last year for Lebron. But Lebron has to sustain that and prove he can win in the process.

We can all sit here and try to discredit Kobe's 5 rings...and in some ways they should be devalued a bit with the stupid ring vs ring arguments. But nobody can ever deny the fact that Kobe played a key role on 5 championship teams...and a few of them were hardly easy. So Lebron, now that he has plenty of help, has to prove the same thing. If he does...he'll ultimately pass Kobe on the all time list.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Bosh is a third option on a good team. A 2nd option if your first option is a legend like LeBron James. Two playoff appearences(both first round exits) in 7 years isn't what I'd expect from a "franchise player".

And the fact is that if LeBron stays in Cleveland instead of Miami they still win 50+ games and are considered the favorite in the East just because they have LeBron James. Whatever East team got LeBron would have been the favorite in the conference. Even if it was the Bobcats. Thats how good he is.


So bosh didn't win a game in the playoffs which isn't what you'd expect from a "franchise player"

Well Lebron didn't win a game in the finals until he had 2 allstars/1 FMVP on his team which isn't what you'd expect from a "legend"

[AlphaWolf24]

- Kobe has been top 5 in MVP voting for what 11 seasons?...

basicaly has beeen the leagues best all around player for nearly a decade...

anyone trying to discredit Kobe for winning 5 Championships should be muted.

heck his 01' Championship run is better then Wade's 06' run.....


- Kobe has 5 Championships and over a decade of peak basketball....

- Kobe is already a top 5 - 7 player altime.....lebron has 4 more Titles to go if he wants to match Kobe.

- any logical player/fan would tell you the same thing.

5 beats 1 everytime - " Michael Jordan" april 2013

[longtime lurker]

Joining with two other superstars and completely disappearing in the finals because one yelled at you is the complete opposite of alpha :lol and if Lebron wins this year he'll only pass Hakeem/Oscar Robertston on the all time finals list. He'd still have to pass Duncan and Shaq to get to Kobe. All possible but after this season nothing is guaranteed.

[Flash31]

Both LeBron and Kobe stans
shut the f up.

I mean seriously can yall make one post,go one day with
talking about your "gawd",its like yall are
some extreme psycho stalkers.

Yall are on their nuts,quite almost literally 24/7.

Its like this forum has become a huge circle jerk
about LeBron and Kobe,hell yall probably know what they had for breakfast,lunch and dinner with the way yall post and how far up them yall are.


Really,do yall even have a life or some semblance
of a social life.You would think some of
yall were their lovers with the way yall talk.


Seriously

[LongLiveTheKing]

Lebron has never been carried like Kobe was by Shaq.
Shaq had a better chance winning without Kobe than Kobe would've without Shaq in 2000-2002, without Shaq Kobe missed the playoffs the very next year he left.
Kobe took 13 years to lead a team to a championship.

[IncarceratedBob]

Lebron has never been carried like Kobe was by Shaq.
Shaq had a better chance winning without Kobe than Kobe would've without Shaq in 2000-2002, without Shaq Kobe missed the playoffs the very next year he left.
Kobe took 13 years to lead a team to a championship.
The question is whats worse, getting carried to a ring or getting embarrassed in the finals?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron has never been carried like Kobe was by Shaq.
Shaq had a better chance winning without Kobe than Kobe would've without Shaq in 2000-2002, without Shaq Kobe missed the playoffs the very next year he left.
Kobe took 13 years to lead a team to a championship.
Lebron actually was carried.

2011 Finals
Wade: 26.5/7.0/5.2/1.5/1.5 with 2.5 t/o on 61.4 TS% (.546 .304 .694)
Bosh: 18.5/7.3/1.0/0.3/0.5 with 2.2 t/o on 49.6 TS% (.413 .000 .778)
LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)

Difference is that he choked and his team lost.

Btw here's Jason Terry's numbers...
Terry: 18.0/2.0/3.2/1.3/0.0 with 1.3 t/o on 60.5 TS% (.494 .393 .750)

Lebron was the 5th leading scorer in the series and outscored by Dirk's second option.

[CAstill]

First off. Comparing Kobe's 08 finals performance to Lebron's 11 finals performance is a joke. I'm not saying that the OP was really doing this...but if anyone tries...please don't. Kobe was playing a better team with less help and played much better than Lebron.

If Lebron wins the title and finals mvp this year then I'll move him even with Kobe probably. But he has to do that in my opinion. I don't think Kobe ever played at the level we've seen Lebron play at the last 2 years...especially in the playoffs last year for Lebron. But Lebron has to sustain that and prove he can win in the process.

We can all sit here and try to discredit Kobe's 5 rings...and in some ways they should be devalued a bit with the stupid ring vs ring arguments. But nobody can ever deny the fact that Kobe played a key role on 5 championship teams...and a few of them were hardly easy. So Lebron, now that he has plenty of help, has to prove the same thing. If he does...he'll ultimately pass Kobe on the all time list.


You hate Kobe it's so evident lol. Lebron isn't even playing Kobe 09 level right now, if he was this series would be at least 3 - 1.

[TonyMontana]

Lebron has never been carried like Kobe was by Shaq.
Shaq had a better chance winning without Kobe than Kobe would've without Shaq in 2000-2002, without Shaq Kobe missed the playoffs the very next year he left.

Not only was Kobe carried by Shaq, but even when Shaq left he still wasn't the MVP of the team.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

Lakers record from 04-05 to 06-07

With Kobe: 112-111 (.502)
Without Kobe: 9-14 (.391)

With Odom: 106-94 (.530)
Without Odom: 15-31 (.326)

The team suffered more without Lamar ****ing Odom than without Kobe. :oldlol:

I dont even need to mention how Kobe couldn't even win a single playoff series until Gasol arrived to make LA relevant again.

[LLK21]

Kobe was on a superteam with Shaq and wanted to win by himself

Lebron couldn't win by himself and carpetbagged to a superteam

that's the difference between them. Kobe needs to be the alpha, Lebron is looking for a father figure

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r764/PhotographerPeterParker/nba_g_lebron_delonte_576_zpscb382923.jpg (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/PhotographerPeterParker/media/nba_g_lebron_delonte_576_zpscb382923.jpg.html)

[LongLiveTheKing]

The question is whats worse, getting carried to a ring or getting embarrassed in the finals?
Well both have happened to Kobe didn't he lose by like 40 against the Celtics in '08?

[PrettyCool]

My last username was MiamiThrice, not "RG". Nope not pauk either. or sicktheshocker. OR numbersix. MiamiThrice.

Accusing people of being someone else seems to be the go-to when you got nothing to say.

Do you still think T-mac is not a point forward RG?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well both have happened to Kobe didn't he lose by like 40 against the Celtics in '08?


Difference between Kobe & Lebron

Kobe gets emberassed by the Celtics in the finals - responds by winning the next 2 FMVPS



Lebron gets emberassed by the Celtics in the ECF - responds by leaving his team.

[Solefade]

anyone who calls Kobe a sidekick for his first 3 rings, needs to be lobotomized.

that is all.


Wtf was he then if he wasn't a side kick and didn't win any FMVP in those 3 years?

[Solefade]

So bosh didn't win a game in the playoffs which isn't what you'd expect from a "franchise player"

Well Lebron didn't win a game in the finals until he had 2 allstars/1 FMVP on his team which isn't what you'd expect from a "legend"


So Kobe never made it to the finals period or even out of the first round until he had 1 or 2 all stars? :confusedshrug:

[TheMarkMadsen]

So Kobe never made it to the finals period or even out of the first round until he had 1 or 2 all stars? :confusedshrug:

Context of the quote would be something you should think about first.

I was making a point on how stupid that dudes logic was.

calm down stanely, keep hanging pictures on dido's wall.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Difference between Kobe & Lebron

Kobe gets emberassed by the Celtics in the finals - responds by winning the next 2 FMVPS



Lebron gets emberassed by the Celtics in the ECF - responds by leaving his team.
It wasn't the ECF dumbass.
And LeBron responded by beating the celtics 2 years in a row in the playoffs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

It wasn't the ECF dumbass.
And LeBron responded by beating the celtics 2 years in a row in the playoffs.


You're right sorry he couldn't even make it to the ECF that year.

[Anfernee]

Yeah those cavs teammates sucked so bad that they were #1 seeds with 60+ regualr season wins 2 years in a row.

How many times had Lebrons miami teams been #1 seed or had 60+ win regular seasons b2b?

That's not a fair question with last season being a shortened one. There wasn't a fair chance to win 60 games back to back when one of the seasons only had 66 reg season games. And the Cavs LeBron lead to 60+ wins played in a much weaker East Conference.


Bosh is a third option on a good team. A 2nd option if your first option is a legend like LeBron James. Two playoff appearences(both first round exits) in 7 years isn't what I'd expect from a "franchise player".

And the fact is that if LeBron stays in Cleveland instead of Miami they still win 50+ games and are considered the favorite in the East just because they have LeBron James. Whatever East team got LeBron would have been the favorite in the conference. Even if it was the Bobcats. Thats how good he is.

Fact

Honestly, neither Kobe or LeBron are true Alpha males.

[TheMarkMadsen]

That's not a fair question with last season being a shortened one. There wasn't a fair chance to win 60 games back to back when one of the seasons only had 66 reg season games. And the Cavs LeBron lead to 60+ wins played in a much weaker East Conference.



Fact

Honestly, neither Kobe or LeBron are true Alpha males.

Shortened season doesn't excuse not being the #1 seed.

Much weaker conference in the East from 08-10 than now? :roll:

Please.

[eliteballer]

Kobe took a team with Radmanovic and Fish in the starting lineup to the Finals...in the west!

[jstern]

Lebron's performance in the finals last year was also significantly better than anything Kobe has ever put up. So you have to also consider that OP when comparing that 3 year stretch.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lebron's performance in the finals last year was also significantly better than anything Kobe has ever put up. So you have to also consider that OP when comparing that 3 year stretch.
I think the 2012 OKC team is significantly better than the 2009 Magic, Kobe faced a starting rookie SG, Michael Pietrus and JJ Reddick on the offensive end, and guarded offensive inept rookie Courtney Lee on the defensive end ... apples and oranges compared to LeBron guarding either Durant or Harden, two elite caliber players. I'm not going to insinuate otherwise.

But I actually think at the very least Kobe's performance in the 2009 Finals is on par with LeBron's 2012 Finals. If you take LeBron's overall series as being better, fine. But Kobe's performances in game 1 and close out game 5 in Orlando are better individual games than anything I saw out of LeBron in last year's Finals. To be fair.

[AintNoSunshine]

Remember when Kobe signed in Orlando to join T-Mac and KG?

Yeah me neither.


You have very short term memory then, he joined someone who's better than Tmac and KG combined in Shaq:facepalm

[tpols]

You have very short term memory then, he joined someone who's better than Tmac and KG combined in Shaq:facepalm
If you gave 01-10 Kobe a 20/10 big man like Pau at the start of his prime he wouldve won just as many chips as he did with

00-04 Shaq
05-07 Kwame
08-10 Pau

Kobe at the beginning of his prime was loaded, then in the middle it was shit, and then at the end it was above average.

You give him a steady above average cast the whole way IE a nice well rounded all star big man to spend his career with and he wins 4+ rings anyways.

In the last 3 years of his 10 year prime he got 2 with 3 Finals.. you dont think in 7 years at his peak and in his younger prime he couldnt have done similarly? Thats literally double the time to win the same amount as he already proved he could.

Shaq actually had more perimeter help than Kobe had big man help throughout his career.. prime penny, Wade, Kobe.. he literally rode some of the best HOF perimeter talent ever. Wade and Kobe are both top 6 ALL TIME SGs. Shaq is a top3 center and Pau is probably in the 30ish range at best. Not close.

[fjjkk102]

Kobe's stats are better in WCF during the three peat which you can say WCF are the real championship series. but he's not that dominate in the Finals as Shaq did.

Should give #8 Kobe more credit.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Lebron winning a title would match Kobe 2nd run*












*except he faced much worse teams and had more all star/HOF help

[DMAVS41]

Lebron winning a title would match Kobe 2nd run*












*except he faced much worse teams and had more all star/HOF help

Meh. Not true at all. The 09 Lakers supporting cast was better than the current Heat and the 09 competition was worse in my opinion. I'd take the Pacers over the Nuggets and the Spurs over the Magic (if the Heat get to the finals)

09 Gasol in the playoffs was clearly better than current Wade...and I'd probably take 09 Odom over current Bosh as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Meh. Not true at all. The 09 Lakers supporting cast was better than the current Heat and the 09 competition was worse in my opinion. I'd take the Pacers over the Nuggets and the Spurs over the Magic (if the Heat get to the finals)

09 Gasol in the playoffs was clearly better than current Wade...and I'd probably take 09 Odom over current Bosh as well.

I have no idea what your opinion is based on. Certainly not team records or any of the most commonly used statistics that are used to rank the strength of teams.

09 Jazz 48-34
09 Rockets 53-29
09 Nuggets 54-28
09 Magic 59-23

13 Bucks 38-44
13 Bulls 45-37
13 Pacers 49-32
13 Spurs 58-24

Gasol is "clearly better" based on what exactly? Strictly playoff production? Is anybody touching Birdman's "production" at this point in the playoffs?

Lebron's currently has at least 3 HOF teammates (Bosh, Wade, Allen) and 2 current year all stars (Wade and Bosh). Kobe's team had one for both (Gasol). My original statement is undeniably factually correct.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I have no idea what your opinion is based on. Certainly not team records or any of the most commonly used statistics that are used to rank the strength of teams.

09 Jazz 48-34
09 Rockets 53-29
09 Nuggets 54-28
09 Magic 59-23

13 Bucks 38-44
13 Bulls 45-37
13 Pacers 49-32
13 Spurs 58-24

Agreed, honestly.

[DMAVS41]

I have no idea what your opinion is based on. Certainly not team records or any of the most commonly used statistics that are used to rank the strength of teams.

09 Jazz 48-34
09 Rockets 53-29
09 Nuggets 54-28
09 Magic 59-23

13 Bucks 38-44
13 Bulls 45-37
13 Pacers 49-32
13 Spurs 58-24

Gasol is "clearly better" based on what exactly? Strictly playoff production? Is anybody touching Birdman's "production" at this point in the playoffs?

Lebron's currently has at least 3 HOF teammates (Bosh, Wade, Allen) and 2 current year all stars (Wade and Bosh). Kobe's team had one for both (Gasol). My original statement is undeniably factually correct.

Regular season record is not a good indication of team strength in my opinion. LOL...you act like I'm crazy for saying the Spurs are better than the Magic and Pacers are better than the Nuggets.

I couldn't care less about the first two rounds as neither team could lose.

And no...Gasol is easily better than any player on the Heat team in the playoffs. It's not even debatable...and bringing up a player that is averaging 15 minutes per game and putting up 7/4/0 as better than Gasol is straight up retarded even for you.

[Chrono90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89XqDgD-M_E

Kobe's talking trash to Lebron "shoot the motherfking ball!!"

[TonyMontana]

Shaq actually had more perimeter help than Kobe had big man help throughout his career.. prime penny, Wade, Kobe.. he literally rode some of the best HOF perimeter talent ever. Wade and Kobe are both top 6 ALL TIME SGs. Shaq is a top3 center and Pau is probably in the 30ish range at best. Not close.

Yeah, but that doesn't matter since Shaq didn't have all those guys at once.

When Kobe had Shaq he was arguably the best NBA player of all-time and when he had Gasol, Gasol was at worst a top 3 bigman in the NBA(with Dirk and dwight). I could give two shits if Pau is "30ish range" because he was top 3 in the league they were playing in.

[Chrono90]

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/7973/kobechirpslebrone133031.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/kobechirpslebrone133031.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Not even a question who's more alpha and not afraid to fail.

[gengiskhan]

Lebron winning a title would match Kobe 2nd run*

2 back-2-back LBJ rings EXCEEDS any kobe's

LBJ is doing it like MJ without BIG MEN help!

it has season MVP sweeps in it.
It is won without DOMINATING BIG MEN upfront rebounding the hell out of the boards.

LBJ's MIA is perimeter centric like 1991-1998 Bulls.

They cannot rebound! that means LBJ has to be that much efficient!

Kobe didnt have to worry about this with Gasol, Odom & Bynum upfront.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Regular season record is not a good indication of team strength in my opinion. LOL...you act like I'm crazy for saying the Spurs are better than the Magic and Pacers are better than the Nuggets.

I couldn't care less about the first two rounds as neither team could lose.

And no...Gasol is easily better than any player on the Heat team in the playoffs. It's not even debatable...and bringing up a player that is averaging 15 minutes per game and putting up 7/4/0 as better than Gasol is straight up retarded even for you.

What is a good indicator of team strength? Your feelings? Your feelings aren't based on anything concrete. There is no logic applied. No consistency.

You don't get to ignore 50% of the path to the championship just because it doesn't help your argument. How many times did Dirk lead his favored teams to loses in those rounds in which he couldn't lose?

Birdman is currently tied with Bosh (2nd highest on the team) with 1.5 playoff win shares this postseason. It makes no sense to ignore his contribution.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

2 back-2-back LBJ rings EXCEEDS any kobe's

LBJ is doing it like MJ without BIG MEN help!

it has season MVP sweeps in it.
It is won without DOMINATING BIG MEN upfront rebounding the hell out of the boards.

LBJ's MIA is perimeter centric like 1991-1998 Bulls.

They cannot rebound! that means LBJ has to be that much efficient!

Kobe didnt have to worry about this with Gasol, Odom & Bynum upfront.

Playoff Rebounding %

Bynum 14.5 (09-10)
Gasol 15.1 (08-10)
Odom 16.5 (08-10)
Birdman 16.6 13

Rodman 21.0 (2nd 3 peat)


:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

What is a good indicator of team strength? Your feelings? Your feelings aren't based on anything concrete. There is no logic applied. No consistency.

You don't get to ignore 50% of the path to the championship just because it doesn't help your argument. How many times did Dirk lead his favored teams to loses in those rounds in which he couldn't lose?

Birdman is currently tied with Bosh (2nd highest on the team) with 1.5 playoff win shares this postseason. It makes no sense to ignore his contribution.

Dirk has nothing to do with this...and only once did Dirk truly get upset in the playoffs...in 07. And who on earth ever thought the Mavs couldn't lose early on in any year? Not even die hard Mavs fans who are biased thought we were a lock to beat the 07 Warriors...but that is what happens when you never have a great supporting cast. Do people still not comprehend the Mavs playoff history? There were a total of 2 years that the Dirk led Mavs did not advance as far as they were supposed to. That's it. The 07 warriors series and the 10 Spurs series. And God only knows how anyone can really think of the 10 series as a true upset when the Spurs won only 5 less games and Parker was out for roughly 30 games. Please educate yourself...you can't keep pretending that things are true just because you want them to be.

My opinion on teams is more than just a regular season win total that can be impacted by far too many things. I never once mentioned the first two rounds because they don't matter to me. If they matter to you...great. They don't to me. If you think the Heat have any chance of losing to those first two round teams you just aren't being honest.

Let me ask it this way. Gun to your head...who are you taking...the 09 Magic or the 13 Spurs?

Who asked you to ignore Birdman? Just stop saying he's even close to as impactful as Gasol.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dirk has nothing to do with this...and only once did Dirk truly get upset in the playoffs...in 07. And who on earth ever thought the Mavs couldn't lose early on in any year? Not even die hard Mavs fans who are biased thought we were a lock to beat the 07 Warriors...but that is what happens when you never have a great supporting cast. Do people still not comprehend the Mavs playoff history? There were a total of 2 years that the Dirk led Mavs did not advance as far as they were supposed to. That's it. The 07 warriors series and the 10 Spurs series. And God only knows how anyone can really think of the 10 series as a true upset when the Spurs won only 5 less games and Parker was out for roughly 30 games. Please educate yourself...you can't keep pretending that things are true just because you want them to be.

My opinion on teams is more than just a regular season win total that can be impacted by far too many things. I never once mentioned the first two rounds because they don't matter to me. If they matter to you...great. They don't to me. If you think the Heat have any chance of losing to those first two round teams you just aren't being honest.

Let me ask it this way. Gun to your head...who are you taking...the 09 Magic or the 13 Spurs?

Who asked you to ignore Birdman? Just stop saying he's even close to as impactful as Gasol.

The fact that no one thought the Heat could lose against a team without a winning record and a team missing its top two players is just evidence that Lebron faced weak competition the first two rounds of the playoffs not that the first two rounds simply don't matter for anybody else. :facepalm

[lakerspng]

DMAVS, is it possible... just possible that LeBron makes his best teammates worse, while Kobe made his better? and on the flip side, LeBron makes his average/worse teammates better while Kobe doesn't give two sh!ts about them.

LeBron's ball dominant, kick it to the open man after he draws the defense so they can fling up a shot style, does not help his stronger teammates get into a groove. Kobe's better at making good players thrive, while LeBron's better at making average players shine. It's why Kobe worked so well with Shaq and worked so well with Gasol and if Dwight stays, can work with him. He knows how to work with other great players.

Gasol is better than Bosh, but he is not better than Wade. Take LeBron off the Heat and Wade's putting up 25 5 5, guaranteed. Neither of them (LeBron or Wade) are great players without the ball in their hands. Wade's gotten better, by necessity, but it's not a comfortable space for him and it shows. The only time they really shine as teammates is when they're in the open court, that's why the only time the Heat really become unstoppable is when a team turns the ball over a bunch. You don't turn the ball over, you'll have a good shot beating the Heat because their two best players don't function well in a half court. It's a weakness.

[DMAVS41]

DMAVS, is it possible... just possible that LeBron makes his best teammates worse, while Kobe made his better? and on the flip side, LeBron makes his average/worse teammates better while Kobe doesn't give two sh!ts about them.

LeBron's ball dominant, kick it to the open man after he draws the defense so they can fling up a shot style, does not help his stronger teammates get into a groove. Kobe's better at making good players thrive, while LeBron's better at making average players shine. It's why Kobe worked so well with Shaq and worked so well with Gasol and if Dwight stays, can work with him. He knows how to work with other great players.

Gasol is better than Bosh, but he is not better than Wade. Take LeBron off the Heat and Wade's putting up 25 5 5, guaranteed. Neither of them (LeBron or Wade) are great players without the ball in their hands. Wade's gotten better, by necessity, but it's not a comfortable space for him and it shows. The only time they really shine as teammates is when they're in the open court, that's why the only time the Heat really become unstoppable is when a team turns the ball over a bunch. You don't turn the ball over, you'll have a good shot beating the Heat because their two best players don't function well in a half court. It's a weakness.

You mistake me for some Lebron fan that is making excuses. I'm not. Lebron has plenty of help even with Wade and Bosh in current form.

But that doesn't change the fact that Pau Gasol in the 09 playoffs was simply a much better player than 13 Wade in the playoffs. What has changed since the regular season this year? Or the playoffs last year? When Wade was putting up 23/5/5 and 21/5/5 respectively...nothing has change with Lebron...Wade is just playing much worse.

Not much has changed with Bosh either. Just facing better competition and he's being shown for the fraud he is...I've been saying it for years.

If we are going to blame Lebron for Wade playing like ass so far in the playoffs....then we might as well just not watch basketball and just continue to live in an alternate reality...because that is the only way anyone could actually believe that current wade is better than 09 Gasol

I respect you too much to believe that you actually believe that.

[DMAVS41]

The fact that no one thought the Heat could lose against a team without a winning record and a team missing its top two players is just evidence that Lebron faced weak competition the first two rounds of the playoffs not that the first two rounds simply don't matter for anybody else. :facepalm

What?

I'd say the same thing for the Lakers. I don't care about the rounds in which the teams are extremely unlikely to lose.

You are just shifting the argument once again. You just can't admit when you talk out of your ass. Just like the Dirk stuff. Not once did anyone ever think the Mavs had no chance to lose the two years they didn't advance as far or farther than they were supposed to. And again...only 2 years did that happen.

[lakerspng]

You mistake me for some Lebron fan that is making excuses. I'm not. Lebron has plenty of help even with Wade and Bosh in current form.

But that doesn't change the fact that Pau Gasol in the 09 playoffs was simply a much better player than 13 Wade in the playoffs. What has changed since the regular season this year? Or the playoffs last year? When Wade was putting up 23/5/5 and 21/5/5 respectively...nothing has change with Lebron...Wade is just playing much worse.

Not much has changed with Bosh either. Just facing better competition and he's being shown for the fraud he is...I've been saying it for years.

If we are going to blame Lebron for Wade playing like ass so far in the playoffs....then we might as well just not watch basketball and just continue to live in an alternate reality...because that is the only way anyone could actually believe that current wade is better than 09 Gasol

I respect you too much to believe that you actually believe that.

I actually think Wade has regressed more and more as LeBron has become more and more dominant (taken the reins of the team on the floor and in the media). It looks like D Wade is sulking out there (in basketball terms) That's not on LeBron, I agree, it's all on Wade. He just doesn't have the mentality to take a back seat and he looks depressed because of it and at times is acting out because of it (flops, bitching at refs, cheap fouls, etc.) I notice things like this more now that I have kids entering school, they pull the same crap when they're moody.

It reminds me of the way Gasol was acting in the failed 2011 title defense, in the playoffs. Mentally checked out.

Gasol in the back to back title runs performed better than Wade has recently in the playoffs, but not better than Wade has this year. Wade may be in a slump but after a rocky start to the year, he had a great season.

[DMAVS41]

I actually think Wade has regressed more and more as LeBron has become more and more dominant (taken the reins of the team on the floor and in the media). It looks like D Wade is sulking out there (in basketball terms) That's not on LeBron, I agree, it's all on Wade. He just doesn't have the mentality to take a back seat and he looks depressed because of it and at times is acting out because of it (flops, bitching at refs, cheap fouls, etc.) I notice things like this more now that I have kids entering school, they pull the same crap when they're moody.

It reminds me of the way Gasol was acting in the failed 2011 title defense, in the playoffs. Mentally checked out.

Gasol in the back to back title runs performed better than Wade has recently in the playoffs, but not better than Wade has this year. Wade may be in a slump but after a rocky start to the year, he had a great season.

And nothing has changed. You do realize that Lebron took 5 more shots per game last year in the playoffs and used up possessions at a much higher rate.

And Wade produced much better last season in the playoffs with a more ball dominant Lebron.

Wade's performance has nothing to do with Lebron...he's hurt and playing like shit for him.

Bosh is more impacted by Lebron's style, but again...he's just playing like ass in areas that have nothing to do with Lebron.

[Lakers2877]

Yeah, but that doesn't matter since Shaq didn't have all those guys at once.

When Kobe had Shaq he was arguably the best NBA player of all-time and when he had Gasol, Gasol was at worst a top 3 bigman in the NBA(with Dirk and dwight). I could give two shits if Pau is "30ish range" because he was top 3 in the league they were playing in.
As a laker fan I love Gasol but I don't think anybody thought gasol was a top 3 big in 09. He only made one AS game in Memphis where he was 0-12 in the playoffs

[The-Legend-24]

Is RG really saying that Odom was more valuable than Kobe during those championship runs? :oldlol: :oldlol:

The lengths these fa99its will go to :roll:

[TheBigVeto]

anyone who calls Kobe a sidekick for his first 3 rings, needs to be lobotomized.

that is all.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/34rtwyh.jpg


http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh600/Rodman2124/kobeclutch.gif

[tpols]

I actually think Wade has regressed more and more as LeBron has become more and more dominant (taken the reins of the team on the floor and in the media). It looks like D Wade is sulking out there (in basketball terms) That's not on LeBron, I agree, it's all on Wade. He just doesn't have the mentality to take a back seat and he looks depressed because of it and at times is acting out because of it (flops, bitching at refs, cheap fouls, etc.) I notice things like this more now that I have kids entering school, they pull the same crap when they're moody.

It reminds me of the way Gasol was acting in the failed 2011 title defense, in the playoffs. Mentally checked out.

Gasol in the back to back title runs performed better than Wade has recently in the playoffs, but not better than Wade has this year. Wade may be in a slump but after a rocky start to the year, he had a great season.
Spot on comparison.

Wade and Gasol both seemed to have been sulking playing with no fire. Gasol is a little understandable because they just threw Bynum ahead of him on the priority list after he had been a big feature and turned him into a jumpshooting scrub, but IDK about Wade.. I think he is tired of getting zero credit.

Doesnt matter if he puts up 25/5/5 or better.. with the way people judge rings theyre always going to say he was carried even though weve seen him straight carry lebron at times(2011 finals)

[dh144498]

RG going double full retard in this thread. :lol

[NumberSix]

What?

I'd say the same thing for the Lakers. I don't care about the rounds in which the teams are extremely unlikely to lose.

You are just shifting the argument once again. You just can't admit when you talk out of your ass. Just like the Dirk stuff. Not once did anyone ever think the Mavs had no chance to lose the two years they didn't advance as far or farther than they were supposed to. And again...only 2 years did that happen.
You gotta admit though. The year that Dallas lost to GSW was pretty bad doe.

[DMAVS41]

You gotta admit though. The year that Dallas lost to GSW was pretty bad doe.

Of course. But not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Just another great example of why regular season success is not the end all be all. Look at the 07 Mavs roster and compare it to the current Heat or the 08 Celtics or something. The Mavs won more games and aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of team quality.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Of course. But not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Just another great example of why regular season success is not the end all be all. Look at the 07 Mavs roster and compare it to the current Heat or the 08 Celtics or something. The Mavs won more games and aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of team quality.

Look like they are in the same ballpark to me

Off Rtg: 111.3 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.2 (5th of 30) SRS: 7.28 (2nd of 30)

Off Rtg: 112.3 (2nd of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.7 (9th of 30) SRS: 7.03 (2nd of 30)

In what way do you believe them not to be?

[Jacks3]

Looking back, it's amazing that Kobe was able to get to three straight Finals and win back-to-back rings with guys as mentally soft as Pau and Odom as his main support.

Especially in the West.

I mean, we've seen both these guys exhibit some of the biggest mental collapses you'll ever see in basketball. Pau with the back-to-back historically bad playoff declines in 2011 and 2012 followed by his awful 2013 season. Odom with the biggest one-year decline in NBA history in 2012.

Crazy.

Just goes to show you how incredible he was in his prime. :applause:

[Mr. Jabbar]

the difference between kobe and lebron:

the moment kobe had a legit 2nd option he went to 3 straight finals and won 2 chips.

the moment lebron got a SUPERSTAR 2nd, AND 3rd option, he costed them the championship

[dh144498]

the difference between kobe and lebron:

the moment kobe had a legit 2nd option he went to 3 straight finals and won 2 chips.

the moment lebron got a SUPERSTAR 2nd, AND 3rd option, he costed them the championship

and the crazy thing is Gasol came to the Lakers mid season and they were still able to give a huge run to the finals.

dat Kobe chemistry. Truly making other stars better. :applause: :bowdown:

[STATUTORY]

the difference between kobe and lebron:

the moment kobe had a legit 2nd option he went to 3 straight finals and won 2 chips.

the moment lebron got a SUPERSTAR 2nd, AND 3rd option, he costed them the championship


:applause: gandalf returns

Kobe turns smush parker and chrism mihm into playoff veterans

Lebron turns Wade and Bosh into knicks era steve francis and andrea bargnani

[Bandito]

:applause: gandalf returns

Kobe turns smush parker and chrism mihm into playoff veterans

Lebron turns Wade and Bosh into steve francis and andrea bargnani
Steve Francis is much of an insult to the franchise, more like Devean George and Bargnani.

[Nebraskanball]

and the crazy thing is Gasol came to the Lakers mid season and they were still able to give a huge run to the finals.

dat Kobe chemistry. Truly making other stars better. :applause: :bowdown:
The man is a legend and a hero. A basketball god.

[Heavincent]

Looking back, it's amazing that Kobe was able to get to three straight Finals and win back-to-back rings with guys as mentally soft as Pau and Odom as his main support.

Especially in the West.

I mean, we've seen both these guys exhibit some of the biggest mental collapses you'll ever see in basketball. Pau with the back-to-back historically bad playoff declines in 2011 and 2012 followed by his awful 2013 season. Odom with the biggest one-year decline in NBA history in 2012.

Crazy.

Just goes to show you how incredible he was in his prime. :applause:

Yeah isn't Odom the guy who went into an emotional tailspin after he almost got traded? The guy who sucked so bad in Dallas that Mark Cuban told him to just go home with like 20 games left in the season? :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Yeah isn't Odom the guy who went into an emotional tailspin after he almost got traded? The guy who sucked so bad in Dallas that Mark Cuban told him to just go home with like 20 games left in the season? :oldlol:


the thing with odom is, he had those great 16 pts 6 reb 3 ast games and the next game he was a NO FACTOR, during his very best year with the lakers he was still inconsistent as f*ck, glimpses about how mentally weak he was even at his best. When odds were against him, total collapse was inevitable...

[Heavincent]

the thing with odom is, he had those great 16 pts 6 reb 3 ast games and the next game he was a NO FACTOR, during his very best year with the lakers he was still inconsistent as f*ck, glimpses about how mentally weak he was even at his best. When odds were against him, total collapse was inevitable...

Good to see you back on ISH Mr. Jabbar. I thought Jeff might have perma banned you.

[Heavincent]

And I have to say, your performance in Theoo's comics was brilliant :bowdown: One of the best antagonists I've ever seen.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Theoo needs to lay low with his comic thing, Marvel will want to hire him any minute now and this site will lose him :no: , jeff would have to pay if he wants theoos comics posted here then

[SamuraiSWISH]

Of course. But not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
It really is as bad as people make it out to be. Possibly even worse. One of the worst things I've ever seen.

Guy wins MVP, with a supporting cast good enough to win 67 games (coming off a Finals trip, expected to return) ... loses in the 1st round to an 8th seed. Regardless if it was compromised of a team who knew their tendencies.

Dirk doesn't play well enough that you say, god Dirk put up a gaudy performance even in defeat. He couldn't take advantage of Stephen Jackson guarding him in the post ... couldn't even play well enough as leader to push it 7 games.

Get's embarrassed and bounced from the playoffs, and accepts the MVP trophy in shame a few weeks later, not in front of his home crowd in the ECF like an MVP is supposed to.

[DMAVS41]

It really is as bad as people make it out to be. Possibly even worse. One of the worst things I've ever seen.

Guy wins MVP, with a supporting cast good enough to win 67 games (coming off a Finals trip, expected to return) ... loses in the 1st round to an 8th seed. Regardless if it was compromised of a team who knew their tendencies.

Dirk doesn't play well enough that you say, god Dirk put up a gaudy performance even in defeat. He couldn't take advantage of Stephen Jackson guarding him in the post ... couldn't even play well enough as leader to push it 7 games.

Get's embarrassed and bounced from the playoffs, and accepts the MVP trophy in shame a few weeks later, not in front of his home crowd in the ECF like an MVP is supposed to.

Well, that is up for debate. I'd say his performance doesn't even scratch the surface as to how bad Lebron's was in 11 for example. Not even close really.

And again...that 67 win supporting cast is easily the worst to ever reach that win total. And Stephen Jackson happened to be the exact type of defender Dirk struggles with...as was the Warriors style of play.

But it's all been said before. For some reason people can't understand matchups. I think we'd all agree that the there have been many better defensive teams that Dirk has shredded because of matchups. For example the 06 Spurs he destroyed a year earlier. Dirk didn't just get suddenly worse over night...it was a nightmare series with a terrible matchup that was an anomaly in Dirk's career.

And Dirk deserves to get hammered for it...as he has. But throwing out 67 wins and Stephen Jackson just proves how lost you really are. If you took all the teams in the league in 07...the Warriors were by far the worst matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. Until you comprehend that...you'll be thinking about things poorly...as shown.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Well, that is up for debate. I'd say his performance doesn't even scratch the surface as to how bad Lebron's was in 11 for example. Not even close really.

And again...that 67 win supporting cast is easily the worst to ever reach that win total. And Stephen Jackson happened to be the exact type of defender Dirk struggles with...as was the Warriors style of play.

But it's all been said before. For some reason people can't understand matchups. I think we'd all agree that the there have been many better defensive teams that Dirk has shredded because of matchups. For example the 06 Spurs he destroyed a year earlier. Dirk didn't just get suddenly worse over night...it was a nightmare series with a terrible matchup that was an anomaly in Dirk's career.

And Dirk deserves to get hammered for it...as he has. But throwing out 67 wins and Stephen Jackson just proves how lost you really are. If you took all the teams in the league in 07...the Warriors were by far the worst matchup for Dirk and the Mavs. Until you comprehend that...you'll be thinking about things poorly...as shown.

Among the other 67+ win teams in NBA history? How many more are there? <10? :oldlol:

Its also not even true. The 2000 Lakers won 67 games. Shaq's supporting cast in 2000 is not easily worst than Dirk's in 07.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Among the other 67+ win teams in NBA history? How many more are there? <10? :oldlol:

Its also not even true. The 2000 Lakers won 67 games. Shaq's supporting cast in 2000 is not easily worst than Dirk's in 07.

I usually don't agree with you, but you've been spot on the last few pages of this thread. Good posts.

[HurricaneKid]

Kobe: 6/24 = FMVP
LBJ: Has never gone 6/24 and won

[Jacks3]

Yeah isn't Odom the guy who went into an emotional tailspin after he almost got traded? The guy who sucked so bad in Dallas that Mark Cuban told him to just go home with like 20 games left in the season? :oldlol:
Yup. :lol

[DMAVS41]

Among the other 67+ win teams in NBA history? How many more are there? <10? :oldlol:

Its also not even true. The 2000 Lakers won 67 games. Shaq's supporting cast in 2000 is not easily worst than Dirk's in 07.

So we differ on the strength of the teams...shocking.

But the point is simple. It's a cast that listing a 67 win season as the standard of how good they were is misleading...because nobody would think that was one of the 10 or so best teams ever.

Not even one of the 100 or so best teams ever.

So I don't know if you are trying to make my point for me or not...but you did.

Why not just list the players and coach to talk about how good a team is...and not an arbitrary regular season win total that is often misleading. Hence the 07 Mavs and 09 Cavs...but you won't do that. Because you use overachieving as a negative against Dirk and Lebron those years.

That is what is sad. Lebron and Dirk would have been better off just winning 55 games with those teams (which would have been perfectly reasonable)...thus expectations would have been where they should have been based on the actual team strength and talent.

You are exemplifying the exact problem with your analysis. It is surface level only...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So we differ on the strength of the teams...shocking.

But the point is simple. It's a cast that listing a 67 win season as the standard of how good they were is misleading...because nobody would think that was one of the 10 or so best teams ever.

Not even one of the 100 or so best teams ever.

So I don't know if you are trying to make my point for me or not...but you did.

Why not just list the players and coach to talk about how good a team is...and not an arbitrary regular season win total that is often misleading. Hence the 07 Mavs and 09 Cavs...but you won't do that. Because you use overachieving as a negative against Dirk and Lebron those years.

That is what is sad. Lebron and Dirk would have been better off just winning 55 games with those teams (which would have been perfectly reasonable)...thus expectations would have been where they should have been based on the actual team strength and talent.

You are exemplifying the exact problem with your analysis. It is surface level only...

Regular season win totals isn't an arbitrary number when it comes to ranking the strength of a team and/or teammates. It's 82 games of relevant data.

Howard, Terry, Harris, Stackhouse isnt <<<<<<<< 21 year old Kobe, washed up Glen Rice and run of the mill role players. I don't care if the latter were coached by Jesus himself.

You live a world of circular logic in which a high seeded team can never choke because by virtue of losing in the early rounds they were never actually that good in the first place.

:facepalm

[knicksman]

Among the other 67+ win teams in NBA history? How many more are there? <10? :oldlol:

Its also not even true. The 2000 Lakers won 67 games. Shaq's supporting cast in 2000 is not easily worst than Dirk's in 07.

maybe the reason for the first round exit is because stern wants to send a message to cuban because cuban was constantly bitching about the 2006 finals

[longtime lurker]

Did people in this thread really insinuate that 09 Odom is better than current Bosh? :oldlol: :oldlol: