Rookie MJ>>>>>

[andgar923]

Aside from his outside shot, rookie MJ as a whole is better than any player today.

He was as well rounded as Bron is, as explosive a scorer as Kobe in his prime, more athletic than prime Wade. Sure one can nitpick here and there, but as a 'whole' MJ was better.

What stands out the most is his court vision/decision making and explosiveness. He didn't hesitate to exploit the defense, he recognized gaps in the defense instantly and attacked without any hesitation. He was already playing like a vet, never folding or shying away, already the team leader playing like a 7 year vet.

As a rookie he already displayed skill levels that most players today lack (including Bron, Wade and others) and skills that took Kobe yearst to learn. Small details such as footwork, balance, coming off curls, moving without the ball, posting up, pull up, creating separation, etc.etc. I get pissed off watching this post season because players like Wade and Bron still haven't figured out some of these simple things. I get pissed off watching Kobe have most of these skills, but consistently make bad decisions or not being consistent enough. I get frustrated as Bron takes 100 dribbles before he makes a move on a smaller defender in the post only to make a cross court pass for a 3. Wade coming off curls and faking a shot 2 times even tho he had an open shot from the start.

Rookie MJ already came into the league with the tools to be a great player. But then there was the sick athleticism. I find it hilarious when people say Bron is as quick as Mj was. Perhaps he's as fast on the open court, but fast on an open court is different than being 'quick'. Not just lightning first step quick either, MJ's moves are all a blur to his defenders. From head fakes, jab steps, spin moves, jumping, shit

[Element]

Aside from his outside shot

Seems like a pretty irrelevant thing to have, huh? Lol. Defenses play superstars according to their abilities and skill sets, which is why the offensive impact of guys like Kobe and Melo goes far beyond numbers.


He was as well rounded as Bron is

:biggums:


as explosive a scorer as Kobe in his prime

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:


as a 'whole' MJ was better

No :facepalm

[Dragonyeuw]

I never got the argument that Jordan 'couldn't shot' when he came into the league. Obviously he wasn't the shooter he would become, but he had a decent mid-range jumper even then. It sure as hell wasn't worse than Wade's is right now.

[Rysio]

lol rookie kobe was more skilled than prime mj what you talking about? it took mj till the late 90s to actually be skilled before that he was all athleticism like lebrick has been his whole career.

[andgar923]

Seems like a pretty irrelevant thing to have, huh? Lol. Defenses play superstars according to their abilities and skill sets, which is why the offensive impact of guys like Kobe and Melo goes far beyond numbers.



:biggums:



:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:



No :facepalm

Only thing I'd retract is the "explosive as a scorer as Kobe". He may not have been as explosive a scorer, but he was certainly as versatile if not more. Kobe relied too much on his 3pt and settling for jumpers. Whereas Mj attacked from more diverse ways at a more consistent rate.

[andgar923]

I never got the argument that Jordan 'couldn't shot' when he came into the league. Obviously he wasn't the shooter he would become, but he had a decent mid-range jumper even then. It sure as hell wasn't worse than Wade's is right now.

I agree.

He was a better mid range jump shooter than Wade, Melo, Bron and on par to Kobe.

He is however a lesser 'long' range shooter than they are now. Naturally it takes players years to build a consistent long range jump shooter, but even as a rookie he was still good enough to be a threat from long range.

[Element]

I agree.

He was a better mid range jump shooter than Wade, Melo, Bron and on par to Kobe.

He is however a lesser 'long' range shooter than they are now. Naturally it takes players years to build a consistent long range jump shooter, but even as a rookie he was still good enough to be a threat from long range.

He wasn't even as good of a mid-range shooter than Prime Wade, let alone current Kobe.

He also had no post up game whatsoever and his playmaking was limited to producing passes leading to assists. Almost worthless when he didn't have the ball in his hands. Plus he wasn't his catch and shoot off the screen or off a curl game that became such an effective weapon in the 90s for him was pretty elementary

[gengiskhan]

28 / 6 / 6.5 @ 51.5%FG. 85%FT

enuf said.

can you imagine peak prime kobe doing that.

NEVER!


Rookie MJ = beat version of LBJ.

Rookie MJ >> peak prime / any version of Kobe

[KG215]

No, he's not. Current LeBron is better than rookie Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

28 / 6 / 6.5 @ 51.5%FG. 85%FT

enuf said.

can you imagine peak prime kobe doing that.

NEVER!


Rookie MJ = better version of LBJ.

Rookie MJ >> peak prime / any version of Kobe

Agreed.

[The-Legend-24]

Michael Jordan is the most overrated player ever, no doubt.

[Trollsmasher]

Was it that era when there was no defense played and guys were just running from basket to basket?

[gengiskhan]

lol rookie kobe was more skilled than prime mj what you talking about? it took mj till the late 90s to actually be skilled before that he was all athleticism like lebrick has been his whole career.

:lol :lol

rookie kobe. :lol :lol

his best skillset was WARMING THE BENCH. :roll: :applause:

cheaply aping Jordan. :roll: :applause:

& shooting AIR BALLS in clutch!. :applause: :applause:

[HardwoodLegend]

Rookie Jordan was MERKIN in this game, holy $hit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzp6oggLwKo

Definitely more aesthestic than any version of LeBron if nothing else.

[gengiskhan]

Was it that era when there was no defense played and guys were just running from basket to basket?

era where.....

best physical defense ever was INVENTED called "bad boys" defense of DET

Best perimeter team defense ever INVENTED called "CELTICS" defense

Best era for CLOGGING the paint area. Big Guys literally CAMPING in the Paint so that no 21 yrs old rookie from UNC will dunk all over their a55es.

Best era for ATHLETIC defense was invented called ALT defense!

[plowking]

era where.....

best physical defense ever was INVENTED called "bad boys" defense of DET

Best perimeter team defense ever INVENTED called "CELTICS" defense

Best era for CLOGGING the paint area. Big Guys literally CAMPING in the Paint so that no 21 yrs old rookie from UNC will dunk all over their a55es.

Best era for ATHLETIC defense was invented called ALT defense!

What basketball were you watching?

It was open lanes to the basket back then compared to now.

[K Xerxes]

Rookie Jordan > Rookie LeBron

Prime LeBron > Rookie Jordan

Prime Jordan > Prime LeBron

Everyone should be happy with that.

[dh144498]

Rookie Jordan > Rookie LeBron

Prime LeBron > Rookie Jordan

Prime Jordan > Prime LeBron

Everyone should be happy with that.

you forgot prime Jordan > rookie Lebron.

[gengiskhan]

What basketball were you watching?

definitely not the one you are watching these days consisting of SUPERSTAR FLOPPING, Kobe's ARMS FLAILING in desperation of foul call when stripped blocked.

real era! of '80s & '90s when Doc Rivers of ATL was allowed to clothline MJ while driving to the basket. when Rodman was allowed to throw down MJ from mid air.

seen it all. this is when ACTING, FLOPPING, ARMS FLAILING was ILLEGAL!

[dh144498]

definitely not the one you are watching these days consisting of SUPERSTAR FLOPPING, Kobe's ARMS FLAILING in desperation of foul call when stripped blocked.

real era! of '80s & '90s when Doc Rivers of ATL was allowed to clothline MJ while driving to the basket. when Rodman was allowed to throw down MJ from mid air.

seen it all. this is when ACTING, FLOPPING, ARMS FLAILING was ILLEGAL!

:biggums: :wtf:

you are really something.

[K Xerxes]

you forgot prime Jordan > rookie Lebron.

:biggums:

Lol, that goes without question given prime Jordan > prime LeBron, and prime LeBron > rookie LeBron.

[dh144498]

:biggums:

Lol, that goes without question given prime Jordan > prime LeBron, and prime LeBron > rookie LeBron.

I'm OCD. I want all the possible combinations of comparisons to be there.!!!
:D

[andgar923]

Again, it was his court vision and execution that separates him for the most part.

As I mentioned, there's bits and pieces during MJ's rookie season that remind me of Wade, Kobe, Bron, who are the players that get compared to him the most (at least today).

Skill wise, only Kobe today has the footwork, off the ball movement, ability to attack from various positions, scoring versatility etc.etc. although MJ is still slightly better (even as a rookie) in some aspects such as creating space. But where MJ trumps Kobe is in his court awareness and decision making. Not just that but the explosiveness when he sees an opening.

We see the all around playmaking abilities that are natural to Bron. But MJ was simply a more refined offensive threat, faster at making decisions and executing. Not even touching on MJ's superior scoring versatility which is sad.

Wade is said to be as explosive to the basket as MJ was, but not when you watch young MJ. MJ is more dangerous because he is far more versatile, a superior finisher, and had a better shot.

I advise some of you naysayers to go watch the vids I posted and you'll see what I'm referring too. MJ was a leader from the get go, he was winning games, taking over, and putting his stamp on the game. Some even consider his 2nd season part of his rookie year since he played for a limited time. I understand it's hard for you kiddies to fathom somebody being that good, somebody having all of these tools, while being mentally tough, a born leader, playing with the consistency of a seasoned vet. Some of the traits and tools that took your favorite player years to gain (if they have even done so).

The ONLY reason his numbers weren't even more impressive was due to the era. It was a more team oriented game with less one on one aka ball dominant era. If one watches the clips (or games) you'd see him play within the flow of the game and not really dominate the ball. Give him the free range and ball dominance today's players are accustomed to and you'd see his stats blossom.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Jordan was such a beast even from the start, some people don't even know about it.

The only time he got outplayed by the opponent's sg on both sides of the court though, in a playoffs series, this was the man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ADAo3W4Hos

[Micku]

What basketball were you watching?

It was open lanes to the basket back then compared to now.

I don't think so from the games that I watched. The paint was more clogged up back then because the spacing was off. Since the players didn't shoot a lot of 3s, and more teams back then go inside and out, the paint was much more clogged.

The rotation today is much better because of zone. And the defensive strategy and philosophy is better with always contesting meanwhile in the 80s, until the Bad Boys Pistons, didn't do that as much.

Regardless, I watched some games from Jordan and Bird when their rookie years. Both of them, especially Bird, moved better without the ball than most of the current stars.

[tpols]

lol

I can already see gengiskhan next topic

High School Jordan = top 10 GOATs!!

16 year old early prime Jordan >> beany baby RAPIST kobe cryant

Suck on dat!

[tpols]

:biggums: :wtf:

you are really something.
I'm guessing mass quantities of meth combined with some type of medication

[DJ Leon Smith]

Michael Jordan is the most overrated player ever, no doubt.

Eddie Jones > the most overrated player ever as a rookie who missed the playoffs in his prime and led his team to a NBA Finals loss at home after being up 24 points at half-time and also led his team to a NBA Finals deciding game loss by 39 points.

Kobe rules!

[gengiskhan]

Again, it was his court vision and execution that separates him for the most part.

As I mentioned, there's bits and pieces during MJ's rookie season that remind me of Wade, Kobe, Bron, who are the players that get compared to him the most (at least today).

Skill wise, only Kobe today has the footwork, off the ball movement, ability to attack from various positions, scoring versatility etc.etc. although MJ is still slightly better (even as a rookie) in some aspects such as creating space. But where MJ trumps Kobe is in his court awareness and decision making. Not just that but the explosiveness when he sees an opening.

We see the all around playmaking abilities that are natural to Bron. But MJ was simply a more refined offensive threat, faster at making decisions and executing. Not even touching on MJ's superior scoring versatility which is sad.

Wade is said to be as explosive to the basket as MJ was, but not when you watch young MJ. MJ is more dangerous because he is far more versatile, a superior finisher, and had a better shot.

I advise some of you naysayers to go watch the vids I posted and you'll see what I'm referring too. MJ was a leader from the get go, he was winning games, taking over, and putting his stamp on the game. Some even consider his 2nd season part of his rookie year since he played for a limited time. I understand it's hard for you kiddies to fathom somebody being that good, somebody having all of these tools, while being mentally tough, a born leader, playing with the consistency of a seasoned vet. Some of the traits and tools that took your favorite player years to gain (if they have even done so).

The ONLY reason his numbers weren't even more impressive was due to the era. It was a more team oriented game with less one on one aka ball dominant era. If one watches the clips (or games) you'd see him play within the flow of the game and not really dominate the ball. Give him the free range and ball dominance today's players are accustomed to and you'd see his stats blossom.

totally agreed!

The amount of fluidity rookie MJ had was unbelievable. The least amount of wasted dribbles & time on the shot clock.

His court vision, Bball IQ as rookie was probably slightly lower than Magic & Bird but was above Isiah, Drexler, Nique his contemparies & leagues better than Kobe, Wade.

This showed how much Dean Swith kept a lid on MJ through that SUFFOCATING 4-CORNER UNC offense.

MJ just unleashed as rookie. If he didnt had scrub teammates, I can see him having 30/8/8 rookie yr.

Having scrub teammates means means loss of 2 assists per game for play maker MJ cuz they blew a shot.

[RRR3]

Michael Jordan was literally flawless. He never missed a single shot, never committed a turnover, and he never let anyone score on him, even once. He was the greatest basketball player of all time as soon as he stepped on an NBA court. He was already the GOAT at literally every single facet of basketball after his rookie season (any aspect he didn't seem to be great in was because he didn't want to embarrass people too much.) Take the best games of LeBron and Kobe and add them together, and then multiply them by 10. The result would still be a bad game for MJ.

[gengiskhan]

Michael Jordan was literally flawless. He never missed a single shot, never committed a turnover, and he never let anyone score on him, even once. He was the greatest basketball player of all time as soon as he stepped on an NBA court. He was already the GOAT at literally every single facet of basketball after his rookie season (any aspect he didn't seem to be great in was because he didn't want to embarrass people too much.) Take the best games of LeBron and Kobe and add them together, and then multiply them by 10. The result would still be a bad game for MJ.

totally agreed!

could never have said it better myself.

He was THE ONE.

[Doranku]

Keep in mind that OP is the same dude who said current MJ could drop 50 in today's league. :roll:

[#number6ix#]

How about the fact jordan was a 21 year old man when he came into the league and not a 18 year old kid like kobe and lebron

[gengiskhan]

How about the fact jordan was a 21 year old man when he came into the league and not a 18 year old kid like kobe and lebron

Jordan was also once an 18 yrs old Kid like Kobe

but guess What!!

Jordan as 18 yrs old Kid hit the GAME WINNER to win the ring & deliver his coach his First NCAA title.

Kobe as 18 yrs old Kid hit 3 straight AIR BALLS. :lol :lol

[gengiskhan]

Keep in mind that OP is the same dude who said current MJ could drop 50 in today's league. :roll:

45 PPG is more realistic.

But

I can see him going for 50 PPG ave for a month especially if he decides to show LBJ up.

[longtime lurker]

Michael Jordan was literally flawless. He never missed a single shot, never committed a turnover, and he never let anyone score on him, even once. He was the greatest basketball player of all time as soon as he stepped on an NBA court. He was already the GOAT at literally every single facet of basketball after his rookie season (any aspect he didn't seem to be great in was because he didn't want to embarrass people too much.) Take the best games of LeBron and Kobe and add them together, and then multiply them by 10. The result would still be a bad game for MJ.

Don't forget GOAT time father, best dresser, GM and shoe sales man

[chazzy]

era where.....

best physical defense ever was INVENTED called "bad boys" defense of DET

Best perimeter team defense ever INVENTED called "CELTICS" defense

Best era for CLOGGING the paint area. Big Guys literally CAMPING in the Paint so that no 21 yrs old rookie from UNC will dunk all over their a55es.

Best era for ATHLETIC defense was invented called ALT defense!
90s defense was good, but '85? Uhh

[gengiskhan]

90s defense was good, but '85? Uhh

Ever heard the length of Parish-Mchale with 2 x DPOY dennis johnson.

Ever heard of Mid '80s pistons who actually played LEGAL defense before becoming Bad Boys!

Ever heard of mid '80s Hawks Athletic defense. nique-willis-rivers led.

they are all in EAST Conf.

You gotta be in West conf. to not have any defense in those days.

[diamenz]

gee, it sure is easy to expose the youngsters in this thread. you could see mj's god-like potential from day one in the nba.

[chazzy]

Ever heard the length of Parish-Mchale with 2 x DPOY dennis johnson.

Never heard of that guy

[gengiskhan]

Never heard of that guy

just checking if Kobe'tards still have a pulse. :lol :lol

[chazzy]

just checking if Kobe'tards still have a pulse. :lol :lol
I like your new user title

[gengiskhan]

I like your new user title

thanks. it was either that or Hulgu khan or Kublai Khan.

[chazzy]

thanks. it was either that or Hulgu khan or Kublai Khan.
No, the description below "gengiskhan" on the left

[Legends66NBA7]

andgar, who was better at their peak to you, LeBron James or Larry Bird ?

If it is close and you cannot decide, tell me why.

[Straight_Ballin]

In this weak ass era designed to increase ticket sales, rookie MJ would dominate and it's not even close in this watered down ***** ass league.

[andgar923]

andgar, who was better at their peak to you, LeBron James or Larry Bird ?

If it is close and you cannot decide, tell me why.

Both had advantages over each other.

Athleticism is clearly in Bron's favor, which is what enables him to excel. But Bird has the advantage in every aspect:

Passing
Shooting
Footwork
Rebounding
Scoring versatility
IQ
Toughness

And it's the small things that make Bird great and unique as well. Bron is great, but this is Bird we're talking about.

I'm taking Bird.

I think some people are in awe of some of Bron's feats but don't see his many gaps. He just started to post up and even then, it's very elementary, filled with bad footwork, balance, timing. Yes he's a smart player (for the most part) but he hesitates many times, takes long to make decisions and execute, while both Bird and MJ were extremely fast at reading and reacting.

The small shit like playing off the ball, coming off screens, setting up defenders, creating shots and easy baskets, etc.etc. things Bron doesn't even have in his game at any consistent basis to even consider. These are things that both Mj and Bird displayed since day 1.

Bron's mental toughness isn't as bad as his critics make it out to be. But it'snot on the same level as MJ's or Bird's. We saw Mj's great poise and mental toughness even as a rookie, still better than Bron's is today.

Bird>>> Bron

Example… I'm watching the game right now and Bron can't even set a proper screen and run a pick and roll, shit looked awkward as hell. Something like that would've resulted in an easy open shot for either Bird of MJ. Just the way they read the court and what they decide to do is different.

[madmax]

Was it that era when there was no defense played and guys were just running from basket to basket?

pretty much...
the "Showtime" 80's as they call it:lol

[Jailblazers7]

Nah, rookie Jordan doesn't have the same feel for the game that made him unbeatable later in his career. You can tell watching those videos in the OP. Unbelievable talent and clearly a superior scorer but you can tell he is playing the game (at a high level obviously) instead of controlling it like he would later in his career.

[andgar923]

Nah, rookie Jordan doesn't have the same feel for the game that made him unbeatable later in his career. You can tell watching those videos in the OP. Unbelievable talent and clearly a superior scorer but you can tell he is playing the game (at a high level obviously) instead of controlling it like he would later in his career.

But he DID control it.

Naturally, he improved on every facet, yet he was still better than Bron, Durant, Kobe in that aspect.

Or did you not see him take over games in some of those links I posted?

[Soundwave]

This is LeBron's prime, so I'd give LeBron the nod there.

But I'd take rookie Jordan over anyone else in the league.

[gengiskhan]

But he DID control it.

Naturally, he improved on every facet, yet he was still better than Bron, Durant, Kobe in that aspect.

Or did you not see him take over games in some of those links I posted?

This.

Jordan is the only player who got better & better with each game.

Many peaked off or plateau'ed

Jordan was the real aging wine!

[plowking]

Has anyone noticed andgar's views, opinions, and insight on the game is very bland and generic when it comes to players back in the day (who he supposedly watched)?

He can't really tell us anything more than the typical great this, bad at that, had this, didn't have that.

You can tell who is speaking out of their ass on this forum, and who actually knows their shit.

[andgar923]

Has anyone noticed andgar's views, opinions, and insight on the game is very bland and generic when it comes to players back in the day (who he supposedly watched)?

He can't really tell us anything more than the typical great this, bad at that, had this, didn't have that.

You can tell who is speaking out of their ass on this forum, and who actually knows their shit.
Tell em why you mad!:oldlol:

[plowking]

Tell em why you mad!:oldlol:

I just think you're full of shit. You're not an annoying poster or anything, its just blatantly obvious you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to certain things.

You regurgitate vague things most people know on the topic already, and repeat to get your point across. You're never succinct or new with the information you drop and you never speak about specifics.

It is what it is.

You strike me as a Psych student who takes 1 semester of college and thinks they can break you down with all the shit they've "learnt". But on an even smaller scale in your case.

[secund2nun]

It took him how many seasons to win a playoff series?

[Nashty]

Only player in todays league which is better than rookie Jordan is LeBron James.

[2010splash]

Prime Jordan is the best player ever, but it takes some kind of psychotic delusion to think rookie Jordan was better than any version of LeBron from 2007-now. I figured Kobe fans were the only ones who were mind-numbingly stupid. Surely most Jordan fans wouldn't argue that he was better than prime LeBron in his rookie year.

[gengiskhan]

IMO

Rookie MJ = 2007 - Present Lebron.

Rookie MJ >> Peak Prime Kobe

UNC MJ = Peak Prime Kobe


No matter how you look at it, Rookie MJ REFUSED to get swept by MIL in first round. What a spectacular game by rookie being down 0-2. Rookie Jordan delivers a 35/8/7 with a GAME WINNER!.

rookie MJ practicularly took over the last 7 mins of 4th quarter AT HOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBG8piN3r6E

It took an all-time great team like Bird's Celtics to sweep MJ in 1986 & 1987 by over coming 63 pts effort by MJ.

[diamenz]

man mj could tip-toe that baseline like no other. not to mention mastering the baseline fadeaway from damn near behind the backboard later in his career.

[andgar923]

For those that think I'm some extremely bias MJ nut job, here are some generic reasons why 'rookie' MJ was better than even current Bron:

Mid range game: MJ>>Bron
Post up game: MJ>> Bron
Off the ball: MJ>>Bron
Catch and shoot: MJ>>Bron
Ball in hand: MJ>>Bron
Creating shot: MJ>>Bron
Reading defense and reacting: MJ>>Bron
Attacking gaps/penetrating: MJ>>Bron
Ft shooting: MJ>>Bron
Footwork: MJ>>Bron
Consistency: Mj>>Bron
Quickness: Mj>>Bron
Jumping: MJ>>Bron
Passing: Mj>>Bron

Before some of you get your panties wet, I'll explain passing. MJ even as a rookie, simply made quicker decisions with the ball. There was little hesitation when he had it. His passes were always precise and laser fast, always had great timing. But again, MJ was quicker and better at reading and reacting, YES even as a rookie. Not only was MJ great at everything I mentioned, he made the RIGHT pass at the RIGHT moment, on a far more consistent basis than Bron has.

What are Bron's advantages?

His 3pt shot that's obvious.
Size

[Rose'sACL]

Both had advantages over each other.

Athleticism is clearly in Bron's favor, which is what enables him to excel. But Bird has the advantage in every aspect:

Passing
Shooting
Footwork
Rebounding
Scoring versatility
IQ
Toughness

And it's the small things that make Bird great and unique as well. Bron is great, but this is Bird we're talking about.

I'm taking Bird.

I think some people are in awe of some of Bron's feats but don't see his many gaps. He just started to post up and even then, it's very elementary, filled with bad footwork, balance, timing. Yes he's a smart player (for the most part) but he hesitates many times, takes long to make decisions and execute, while both Bird and MJ were extremely fast at reading and reacting.

The small shit like playing off the ball, coming off screens, setting up defenders, creating shots and easy baskets, etc.etc. things Bron doesn't even have in his game at any consistent basis to even consider. These are things that both Mj and Bird displayed since day 1.

Bron's mental toughness isn't as bad as his critics make it out to be. But it'snot on the same level as MJ's or Bird's. We saw Mj's great poise and mental toughness even as a rookie, still better than Bron's is today.

Bird>>> Bron

Example… I'm watching the game right now and Bron can't even set a proper screen and run a pick and roll, shit looked awkward as hell. Something like that would've resulted in an easy open shot for either Bird of MJ. Just the way they read the court and what they decide to do is different.
Bird doesn't have advantage in passing or scoring. Bird was tougher. IQ is very debatable.
Lebron is clearly a better scorer.
In passing, both seem to be equally good quality wise but quantity wise, lebron makes more. I know you will say that Lebron passes to 3 pt shooters as he has had better ones. For that i will tell you that bird had some really good big men who he could pass to.
It is like comparing bird's rebounding numbers to lebron's rebounding numbers. Can lebron rebound rebound as much as bird? yes but only for a few games like he did in last year's playoffs against indiana and celtics when bosh was out(having good off. reb numbers too) but it is really hard for him to do it for really long stretches and that is why bird is clearly the better rebounder.
You can't go wrong with either bird or lebron but i will take lebron over bird. It is pretty close though for at least now. If lebron maintains what he is doing right now for another 4 years , it will not even be a debate.
I respect Bird more because he didn't have lebron's athleticism but basketball is a sport and athleticism should count as a positive if am a GM. It looks like lebron will also have a better career given how well his body is holding up even though he exerts more pressure on it than bird ever did on his body. It is a shame bird had injury issues but it is a minus point for an athlete.
Also, stop with you rookie mj> current bron. You are losing credibility.

[PickernRoller]

as explosive a scorer as Kobe in his prime,

:facepalm

[bdreason]

MJ was schooling NBA legends like Magic and Isiah before he even set foot in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrjhIXKc6Xk

[Soundwave]

MJ was schooling NBA legends like Magic and Isiah before he even set foot in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrjhIXKc6Xk

LOL at 3:08 in, Jordan basically dunks on Magic, Magic doesn't even try to contest the dunk.

[andgar923]

Bird doesn't have advantage in passing or scoring. Bird was tougher. IQ is very debatable.
Lebron is clearly a better scorer.
In passing, both seem to be equally good quality wise but quantity wise, lebron makes more. I know you will say that Lebron passes to 3 pt shooters as he has had better ones. For that i will tell you that bird had some really good big men who he could pass to.
It is like comparing bird's rebounding numbers to lebron's rebounding numbers. Can lebron rebound rebound as much as bird? yes but only for a few games like he did in last year's playoffs against indiana and celtics when bosh was out(having good off. reb numbers too) but it is really hard for him to do it for really long stretches and that is why bird is clearly the better rebounder.
You can't go wrong with either bird or lebron but i will take lebron over bird. It is pretty close though for at least now. If lebron maintains what he is doing right now for another 4 years , it will not even be a debate.
I respect Bird more because he didn't have lebron's athleticism but basketball is a sport and athleticism should count as a positive if am a GM. It looks like lebron will also have a better career given how well his body is holding up even though he exerts more pressure on it than bird ever did on his body. It is a shame bird had injury issues but it is a minus point for an athlete.
Also, stop with you rookie mj> current bron. You are losing credibility.

You lost all credibility with your opening sentence.

[Soundwave]

Also is that Hubie Brown calling the game?

At 4:02 of the NBA All-Stars Vs. '84 Olympic Team:

"In my opinion Michael Jordan has the opportunity to become one of the all time great basketball players in the history of the game"

Pretty prophetic statement from someone before Jordan had even played a single NBA game. That announcer was dead on.

[andgar923]

Also is that Hubie Brown calling the game?

At 4:02 of the NBA All-Stars Vs. '84 Olympic Team:

"In my opinion Michael Jordan has the opportunity to become one of the all time great basketball players in the history of the game"

Pretty prophetic statement from someone before Jordan had even played a single NBA game. That announcer was dead on.

He was controling that game.

I understand it was only a scrimmage, but they were both going at it. It wasn't a modern glorified streetball exhibition. There was competitors on that court that didn't want to lose. Coach Knight was screaming at them, you know Zeke and Magic aint gonna take it lightly either, specially letting some young bloods trying to take names.

As i have been repeating over and over, it was MJ's instincts, his ability to read the defense and react immediately. Even at that age he was reading the court very fast, and not hesitating.

People wanna talk about Bron's passing, and he's great, but MJ was dropping dimes (or what should've been dimes). Laser fast precise gems to his teammates right in rhythm.

[bdreason]

Yep, that's Hubie... fukcing guy has been around forever. That guy has forgotten more about basketball than I've ever known.

[Rose'sACL]

You lost all credibility with your opening sentence.
You lost all crediblity with your opening sentence in every post you have ever made.
Are you some ex-nba player that i have to take your opinion on everything? Give me some data to back your statement. Lebron is clearly a better scorer than bird whether you like it or not. all the data backs my claim and yet you act like i have to take your word for it.Bird also doesn't have advantage in passing. According to some he might not be better than bird in passing but he is not worse either.
Stop wearing those nostalgia goggles.

[Soundwave]

He was controling that game.

I understand it was only a scrimmage, but they were both going at it. It wasn't a modern glorified streetball exhibition. There was competitors on that court that didn't want to lose. Coach Knight was screaming at them, you know Zeke and Magic aint gonna take it lightly either, specially letting some young bloods trying to take names.

As i have been repeating over and over, it was MJ's instincts, his ability to read the defense and react immediately. Even at that age he was reading the court very fast, and not hesitating.

People wanna talk about Bron's passing, and he's great, but MJ was dropping dimes (or what should've been dimes). Laser fast precise gems to his teammates right in rhythm.

His athleticism too. You can just see it in how effortlessly he explodes on that dunk by Magic.

Just incredible quickness and explosiveness. That's just a natural gift. There are lots of great athletes in the NBA today, but Jordan reminds me almost of like a 100 meter dash sprinter in basketball form without the steroid bulk.

[andgar923]

You lost all crediblity with your opening sentence in every post you have ever made.
Are you some ex-nba player that i have to take your opinion on everything? Give me some data to back your statement. Lebron is clearly a better scorer than bird whether you like it or not. all the data backs my claim and yet you act like i have to take your word for it.Bird also doesn't have advantage in passing. According to some he might not be better than bird in passing but he is not worse either.
Stop wearing those nostalgia goggles.
You sound hurt, maybe you should go take a nap. You'll feel better when you wake up.

[Rose'sACL]

You sound hurt, maybe you should go take a nap. You'll feel better when you wake up.
You sound like a bitter old man who is afraid of change. I know that your daughter talks with her boyfriend on her cell phone for whole day, posts really weird pics of her on facebook and texts while you're trying to talk to her but that doesn't mean that everything new is bad. Just look at you. you are posting and replying to other people who are far away while sitting at your home.I hope you don't bitch about internet too.
Anyways sorry i replied to you. You clearly don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't think like you like most old people do.

[andgar923]

His athleticism too. You can just see it in how effortlessly he explodes on that dunk by Magic.

Just incredible quickness and explosiveness. That's just a natural gift. There are lots of great athletes in the NBA today, but Jordan reminds me almost of like a 100 meter dash sprinter in basketball form without the steroid bulk.

He was simply fast and lightning quick.

His jab steps were explosive, which is why he had so many open shots, which is why he got separation. When he cut it was like a blur, his jump shot left people stuck on the floor. It's as if he was simply wired that way and he couldn't stop. His spin moves were always deadly, can't think of a better baseline player than MJ. His awareness on the baseline, his ability to balance himself is unmatched. It wasn't simply that he could tight walk the baseline, he did it with such ease at an explosive speed.

Another difference between Bron and MJ is when they attack.

Bron doesn't zig zag through traffic like MJ, he just bulldozes his way through. MJ was more like a small PG zigging and zagging his way through traffic, his speed leaving defenders reaching and reacting too late. Bron doesn't come close to that, it's just one way straight.

I was watching a Wizards video, and even at that age he was still quick at shaking his man. He could still get an open shot with a slight hesitation, with a quick shake, leaving defenders stuck on the floor with a lightning fast move. One could tell his knees were feeling good because he had a little pep to his step that was lacking when his body was failing.

I knew this cat that played with MJ during his Space Jam sessions, and he said he was faster than 6'0 PGs. He couldn't believe how fast and strong he was, just super fast. People should go watch some videos and understand why he was getting so many uncontested shots, why he was open for many of them. He simply created them with his speed. The lane would be clogged and in a split second MJ would zoom through a small gap before the defense saw him coming. You always saw his defender with standing in the same spot with his head turning to the basket as Mj just exploded by them in disbelief.

[andgar923]

You sound like a bitter old man who is afraid of change. I know that your daughter talks with her boyfriend on her cell phone for whole day, posts really weird pics of her on facebook and texts while you're trying to talk to her but that doesn't mean that everything new is bad. Just look at you. you are posting and replying to other people who are far away while sitting at your home.I hope you don't bitch about internet too.
Anyways sorry i replied to you. You clearly don't want to talk to anyone who doesn't think like you like most old people do.
:lol

You're clearly bitter and angry. Go jack off a few times, it'll help you relieve some of that anger.

[Rose'sACL]

:lol

You're clearly bitter and angry. Go jack off a few times, it'll help you relieve some of that anger.
keep telling yourself that anyone who doesn't agree with you is just angry. I am new so i didn't know you are a troll.

[The Choken One]

MJ is heads and shoulders above EVERY player to play the game except KAJ. And you're an idiot if you don't believe KAJ has an argument for GOAT.

[andgar923]

MJ is heads and shoulders above EVERY player to play the game except KAJ. And you're an idiot if you don't believe KAJ has an argument for GOAT.

KAJ def has a strong argument, so does Bird to be honest.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Also is that Hubie Brown calling the game?

At 4:02 of the NBA All-Stars Vs. '84 Olympic Team:

"In my opinion Michael Jordan has the opportunity to become one of the all time great basketball players in the history of the game"

Pretty prophetic statement from someone before Jordan had even played a single NBA game. That announcer was dead on.

No less an authority than Bobby Knight himself said, after coaching Jordan during the Olympics in '84, that "barring injury" he will go down as the greatest player to ever play the game." This is before he had even set foot on an NBA court, mind you.

People knew even then.

[2010splash]

MJ is heads and shoulders above EVERY player to play the game except KAJ. And you're an idiot if you don't believe KAJ has an argument for GOAT.
:roll: :roll:

Rookie Jordan is not better than LeBron, not even close in fact. No point in trying to convince wackjobs otherwise. It's like trying to convince somebody who believes the earth is flat that it's actually round. If they want to purposely be obtuse and ignore provable truths, nothing you can do except let the psychos believe they are right. Jordan was a 28/7/6 on .592 TS, .515 FG, 25.8 PER player his rookie year. Not only are those stats inflated due to pace (and therefore cannot be directly compared to 2013 stats) but how those numbers are better than 27/8/7 on .640 TS, .565 FG, and 31.7 PER is beyond me. Not even bringing up LeBron's edge on defense vs. rookie Jordan. And if you want to bring up every technical skill as a way to compare the two, you can argue several mediocre centers were better than Shaq or Dwight pre-back injury.

And KAJ is definitely not better than LeBron. Bird is nowhere close. Riding Magic's coattails to 4 titles to embellish your career resume doesn't make you a legitimate GOAT candidate. Jordan is the current GOAT, and LeBron will definitely be up there as a candidate (consensus #2 player all time) when his career is done.

[RRR3]

Don't forget GOAT time father, best dresser, GM and shoe sales man
Is there anything the man can't do? :bowdown:

[diamenz]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

two year old mj was better.

[andgar923]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

two year old mj was better.
Not for nothing but a very quick example was during the last game. Bron almost fell trying to give a stutter step, lost his balance and was out of control and he wasn't even going full speed.

MJ on the other hand could give you somebody a stutter step while going full speed and continue seamlessly without a hitch to the basket.

It's small physical stuff like that.

And small shit like a simple give and go. How often do you see Bron give a pump fake, give a quick pass and cut? He usually just stands there on the perimeter and runs around. His off the ball game is pathetic when compared to rookie MJ. He doesn't cut and use footwork to elude his man, he can't come off screens and hit jumpers. How many times does he come off a screen only to hold the ball and dribble instead of a quick pull up or move?

People wanna say that rookie Mj isn't even close?

The man stumbles on his own feet for god sake? :facepalm

[Pointguard]

Jordan was 22 years old most of his rookie season and he was about equal to Lebron at the same age. Lebron had a much better feel for the pro game and part of that was just experience. On the same token Jordan was introduced to better fundamentals, the parts of the game, and individual aspects of the game in college. So Jordan was better in most aspects of the game but a lot of players who had three years of great college were better in a lot of aspects (Pierce, Dominique, Barry, Pippien - even Stackhouse had a better post game, mid game, long range game than Lebron coming in) than Lebron when he first came into the league. They definitely were not better. I think we hypnotize ourselves into aspects of the game rather than the full impact of the player.

Jordan was still in his let me show you what I can do stage as a rookie. He wasn't fully integrated into the team. Neither one of them (Jordan/Lebron) had good teams but Lebron did make it to the finals. Lebron had already shown his ability to be whatever the team needed. His team game was definitely superior to Jordan's at this time.

Jordan was an amazing rookie and already a great individual player. He could already will himself into great situations and some wins, but he couldn't make his team a winner just yet. Lebron was always a combination of wise decision making, versatility, team ball and the ability to make it happen.

[andgar923]

Jordan was 22 years old most of his rookie season and he was about equal to Lebron at the same age. Lebron had a much better feel for the pro game and part of that was just experience. On the same token Jordan was introduced to better fundamentals, the parts of the game, and individual aspects of the game in college. So Jordan was better in most aspects of the game but a lot of players who had three years of great college were better in a lot of aspects (Pierce, Dominique, Barry, Pippien - even Stackhouse had a better post game, mid game, long range game than Lebron coming in) than Lebron when he first came into the league. They definitely were not better. I think we hypnotize ourselves into aspects of the game rather than the full impact of the player.

Jordan was still in his let me show you what I can do stage as a rookie. He wasn't fully integrated into the team. Neither one of them (Jordan/Lebron) had good teams but Lebron did make it to the finals. Lebron had already shown his ability to be whatever the team needed. His team game was definitely superior to Jordan's at this time.

Jordan was an amazing rookie and already a great individual player. He could already will himself into great situations and some wins, but he couldn't make his team a winner just yet. Lebron was always a combination of wise decision making, versatility, team ball and the ability to make it happen.

MJ as a rookie had a slightly better feel for the game than Bron currently has. Up until last season Bron was always criticized for not taking over games, the kind of passes he made, when he made them. Even in these playoff series we see instances in which MJ would've exploited the defense in an eye blink, but Bron decides to instead do the opposite.

MJ didn't have a full impact as a player?

He took a franchise that had been out of the playoffs for years into the playoffs as a rookie when the league was full of MEN not boys. That's not having an impact? :biggums: he was taking over games, he was controlling games, the defense was geared to stop him not David Corzine. He carried the Bulls franchise since day 1. He dominated NBA players (legends in their prime) before he even played an official NBA game. Let us not hypnotize ourselves into thinking he was just a flashy player full of highlights with little substance and minimal impact.

"Lebron was always a combination of wise decision making, versatility, team ball and ability to make it all happen" are you serious? he is still being crticized for not taking over games. He is still being criticized for being too passive. He is still being criticized by some questionable decisions. What world are you in?

I think it's hard for people to fathom the impact some of players had back then. These were players that went to college and gained the experience to adapt to an NBA game quicker than most of today's players. People are also forgetting that MJ came into the league as a decorated college player and Olympian that many were calling one of the greatest to ever play before he played an NBA game. It wasn't hype that was created by the media or Nike, he earned the respect with his play.

Whatever superlative one wants to use to describe current Bron, prime Kobe or Durant, MJ had it as a rookie.

[Doctor K]

wow

[Rose'sACL]

The truth is that if you didn't play in the 80s or 90s, you have no shot at being a top 5 player of all time because "muh nostalgia" and the fact that every little move you make on or off the court is scrutinized too much today unlike in the 80s or 90s.
Your legacy will always take a bigger hit when public has access to every little thing you do.
Also, rookie jordan was working on a cure for cancer but he was told by the nba to concentrate on basketball only. Such a great human being. He could do no wrong.

[K Xerxes]

MJ as a rookie had a slightly better feel for the game than Bron currently has.

Shut the **** up. You're embarrassing.


"Lebron was always a combination of wise decision making, versatility, team ball and ability to make it all happen" are you serious? he is still being crticized for not taking over games. He is still being criticized for being too passive. He is still being criticized by some questionable decisions. What world are you in?

You are simply using a different standard to measure LeBron. By 'not taking over games', I assume you mean 'why doesn't he drop 40 every game'? It's because there are a lot of games where he takes over with aspects not scoring: it could be passing to the hot hand, grabbing boards, guarding a hot player, controlling help defense and setting the tone.

It is not LeBron's nature to take over games the same way Michael did. And, FYI, there are many games where LeBron has taken over the way you refer to before last season: game 5 07 vs Detroit, 09 vs Orlando (first two games particularly) spring to mind. Don't confuse 'not taking over every game' with 'he didn't take over games'.

And, newsflash, there are some games where LeBron doesn't play well. Unbelievable, right?

'He is still being criticized for questionable decisions' - lol every player in the history of the game (and the future) are criticised for decisions at times. It's called being HUMAN, which Jordan was and is.

LeBron is now being judged on championships, not particular games. Just because he didn't take over game 4 the way you want him to doesn't mean he should be criticized because he sure as hell took over game 5 when the situation called for it. No one criticises LeBron for not taking over game 5 in the ECF last year because of what he did in game 6 and ultimately game 7 to close out the series.

As I said, shut the **** up. Prime Jordan is better than prime LeBron. Rookie Jordan isn't close to prime LeBron.

[Pointguard]

MJ as a rookie had a slightly better feel for the game than Bron currently has. Up until last season Bron was always criticized for not taking over games, the kind of passes he made, when he made them. Even in these playoff series we see instances in which MJ would've exploited the defense in an eye blink, but Bron decides to instead do the opposite.

MJ didn't have a full impact as a player?

He took a franchise that had been out of the playoffs for years into the playoffs as a rookie when the league was full of MEN not boys. That's not having an impact? :biggums: he was taking over games, he was controlling games, the defense was geared to stop him not David Corzine. He carried the Bulls franchise since day 1. He dominated NBA players (legends in their prime) before he even played an official NBA game. Let us not hypnotize ourselves into thinking he was just a flashy player full of highlights with little substance and minimal impact.
No. I remember the time well. Jordan was not a dominant player because teams usually controlled the Bulls. He wasn't even winning every other game. They were like 5 games under .500 or something close to that. He could go off in a game but good teams had their way with them. He wasn't a team player at that point. While I enjoyed seeing him live in his rookie year moreso than the championship years because he was really aggressive with reckless abandon. He didn't know how to make his team win back then and had his own goals moreso than team goals at this stage of development. He was like that in his third year much less his rookie year.


"Lebron was always a combination of wise decision making, versatility, team ball and ability to make it all happen" are you serious? he is still being crticized for not taking over games. He is still being criticized for being too passive. He is still being criticized by some questionable decisions. What world are you in?

Wow, at first I didn't know you were trolling. You are like a 2.0 edition - trolling with harder recognition.

Understanding Lebron's game isn't that easy for a lot of people... and you are one of them. The Heat team that really suffered when he wasn't playing in the beginning of the year, matured to a very steady team winning 45 out of the last like 49 games. If I said to you name another steady player on the Heat in the last 50 games, against the better opponents, you would be hard pressed. Yet the team was absolutely dominant as was Lebron.