Is Bill Simmons Crazy?

[chopchop20]

On what planet is Duncan better than Kobe?

[tikay0]

Earth.

[dh144498]

just his opinion. Some people think Kobe is better than Duncan, other believe the opposite.

[KyrieTheFuture]

This one.

[NumberSix]

On what planet is Duncan better than Kobe?
This one.

[chopchop20]

I just don't see any objective basis for that opinion.

[K Xerxes]

People who thinks it's not debatable either way are ****ing idiots. I give Duncan the edge, but I don't mind anyone thinking Kobe as long as they admit it's close.

[DMAVS41]

I love how anyone can think it's crazy to say that the guy that has essentially never won less than 50 games in his entire career and has won 4 titles as the man...one of the best teammates ever...

who has career playoff averages of 22/12/3 while providing some of the best defense of all time for 16 years now....

what a crazy notion...

[Element]

Earth, around June 2005 was the last time that statement was accurate

[NumberSix]

Duncan's career winning% is above 70%. Seriously. Just let that sink in.

[tikay0]

People who thinks it's not debatable either way are ****ing idiots. I give Duncan the edge, but I don't mind anyone thinking Kobe as long as they admit it's close.

Stats, FG%, overall TS, playoff numbers, rings as the man, etc. indicate that it's not really debatable.

Unless you have on permanent Kobe goggles, I don't see how you can realistically rank Kobe ahead of Duncan.

[chopchop20]

Despite all the things yall say about Duncan's greatness, why hasn't his team ever been dominant?

Kobe has went to 3 straight Finals on two separate occasions -- a 3-peat and a Repeat. People seem to forget how RARE a 3peat is.

Duncan has never repeated. In fact since the Lakers repeated in the 80's, only the '04 Pistons, Mavs, Heat, and Spurs have not repeated. That's almost 30 years.

[Kurosawa0]

If we're drafting them from their rookie year, I take Duncan every single time.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I just don't see any objective basis for that opinion.

What's Kobe's advantage other than 1 more ring?

[chopchop20]

Duncan's career winning% is above 70%. Seriously. Just let that sink in.

Didn't seem to stop Kobe from winning more rings and the Lakers from going to 2 more Finals.

[K Xerxes]

Stats, FG%, overall TS, playoff numbers, rings as the man, etc. indicate that it's not really debatable.

Unless you have on permanent Kobe goggles, I don't see how you can realistically rank Kobe ahead of Duncan.

Lol, I find this quite ironic considering you-know-who.

[outbreak]

Hard to say who's better but neither can be ruled out as an incorrect answer.

[305Baller]

Most people would rather build a franchise around Duncan.

Count me in as one of them.

[chopchop20]

What's Kobe's advantage other than 1 more ring?

We could start with their head-to-head matchups in the Playoffs. Kobe's definitely been better against the Spurs than Duncan has against the Lakers.

[dh144498]

Stats, FG%, overall TS, playoff numbers, rings as the man, etc. indicate that it's not really debatable.

Unless you have on permanent Kobe goggles, I don't see how you can realistically rank Kobe ahead of Duncan.

if you don't think it's close then you are the one with the goggles....
:rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Despite all the things yall say about Duncan's greatness, why hasn't his team ever been dominant?

Kobe has went to 3 straight Finals on two separate occasions -- a 3-peat and a Repeat. People seem to forget how RARE a 3peat is.

Duncan has never repeated. In fact since the Lakers repeated in the 80's, only the '04 Pistons, Mavs, Heat, and Spurs have not repeated. That's almost 30 years.

The problem with this is that Kobe won 3 of his titles and went to the finals 4 of his 7 times as the 2nd best player on his team.

if Duncan was ever the 2nd best player on his team in his prime...trust me, you would have seen dominance. hell, if Duncan ever had a true 2nd star during his prime the likes of that Kobe did...you would have seen dominance.

Just imagine Duncan and Dirk playing 8 years together...or Duncan and Wade/Lebron playing 8 years together.

[tikay0]

Lol, I find this quite ironic considering you-know-who.

I'm not following. :confusedshrug:

[K Xerxes]

I'm not following. :confusedshrug:

Mr Stats man, you know, the player you hate with a passion.

[tikay0]

if you don't think it's close then you are the one with the goggles....
:rolleyes:

I'm not saying it's not close, I'm saying Duncan should CLEARLY be ranked ahead of Kobe.

That doesn't mean,

Duncan............................................ .......................Kobe

More like,

Duncan............Kobe

[chopchop20]

The problem with this is that Kobe won 3 of his titles and went to the finals 4 of his 7 times as the 2nd best player on his team.

if Duncan was ever the 2nd best player on his team in his prime...trust me, you would have seen dominance. hell, if Duncan ever had a true 2nd star during his prime the likes of that Kobe did...you would have seen dominance.

Just imagine Duncan and Dirk playing 8 years together...or Duncan and Wade/Lebron playing 8 years together.

Dude that's all SUBJECTIVE. The reality is that Kobe has 5 rings. He did 3peat. He did repeat.

Why do we have to go to the realm of make believe? If..coulda... shoulda... woulda...

It's equally subjective to say that.

1. Tony Parker was the best player on the team when the Spurs last won a title

2. Tony Parker is the best player on the Spurs NOW

3. Tony Parker has been the best player on the Spurs for the last 5 years or more

4. Kobe Bryant has been the best player on the Lakers for the last 10 years

[RossTalksSports]

As people have already mentioned Duncan has quite a few stats backing him up. One of the biggest reasons that Kobe gets the pub over Duncan is that he is playing in LA.

Just to stick with the Simmons thing, on his podcast the other day he complained about having to talk about the Lakers every day even though they were anywhere from an 8-10 seed during the course of the season. LA moves the meter as the NBA's flagship franchise. Since Kobe has that advantage, to anyone that neglects to take a closer look, it could appear that Kobe should unquestionably be the best player of his era.

[tikay0]

Mr Stats man, you know, the player you hate with a passion.

I criticize Lebron for being an unashamed stat padder, and when I rank him H2H, of course I use Lebron's stats as a measuring stick. When you rank him H2H with MJ, those stats go out the window, simply because MJ's stats are better, AND MJ is just the better winner, player, etc.

Stats definitely apply to Kobe and Duncan.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's not crazy, he's actually extremely knowledgeable about the sport. A true basketball head. I enjoy his sincere enthusiasm, and like to hear him talk about the sport with no filter, even with his bias.

But to explain the rationale, he's just always been a prisoner of the moment type of guy, who also happens to have a childhood rooted hatred for the Lakers.

[Jacks3]

Simmons has always been a Kobe hater.

[TheWalkman]

Earth.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jacks3]

Stats, FG%, overall TS, playoff numbers, rings as the man, etc. indicate that it's not really debatable.
.
Kobe has a higher career TS. His best playoff runs (01,08,09,10) are at least as good as Duncan's best. There is a little difference between them statistically. In fact, Kobe's 2006 and 2003 season are more impressive statistically than any single Duncan season.

Oh yeah, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan in almost all their head-to-head matchups. When he got a good supporting cast, he reeled off three straight Finals and back-to-back chips, something Duncan could never do.

Anyone who doesn't think its debatable is a moron.

[Blue&Orange]

The funny thing about what's happening to Kobe right now, it's a peek into Lebron's future.

6,7 years from now, the discussion about Lebron will be, if he is in fact top10 material.

I mean the writing is on the wall, idiots think right now Lebron should be cementing his claim to GOAT, and all he is doing is cementing the idiocy of such claim.

Dude is 28 and his jumper is still broken beyond repair, when his atheticism fades, it's going to be uglier than Wade right now.

[KyrieTheFuture]

The funny thing about what's happening to Kobe right now, it's a peek into Lebron's future.

6,7 years from now, the discussion about Lebron will be, if he is in fact top10 material.

I mean the writing is on the wall, idiots think right now Lebron should be cementing his claim to GOAT, and all he is doing is cementing the idiocy of such claim.

Dude is 28 and his jumper is still broken beyond repair, when his atheticism fades, it's going to be uglier than Wade right now.

And he'll still be better than Melo.

Also, to people saying Kobe outplayed Duncan, wtf does that matter? Not like they go up against each other they are totally different players.

[Jacks3]

Despite all the things yall say about Duncan's greatness, why hasn't his team ever been dominant?

Kobe has went to 3 straight Finals on two separate occasions -- a 3-peat and a Repeat. People seem to forget how RARE a 3peat is.

Duncan has never repeated. In fact since the Lakers repeated in the 80's, only the '04 Pistons, Mavs, Heat, and Spurs have not repeated. That's almost 30 years.
Very true. It should all mentioned that several of Duncan's rings have come through extreme luck.

99-Lockout.
03--Injuries to Kobe and Shaq. Dirk out. Webber out. Plays worst Finals team in history.
07--Suspensions to Amare/Diaw. Another historically poor Finals opp.

The fact that Duncan could never manage to even make back-to-back Finals appearances is definitely a black mark...

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Despite all the things yall say about Duncan's greatness, why hasn't his team ever been dominant?

Kobe has went to 3 straight Finals on two separate occasions -- a 3-peat and a Repeat. People seem to forget how RARE a 3peat is.

Duncan has never repeated. In fact since the Lakers repeated in the 80's, only the '04 Pistons, Mavs, Heat, and Spurs have not repeated. That's almost 30 years.

So those who have repeated: Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, Lakers. so 50% have 50% haven't. When did Duncan lose in the Finals?

[tikay0]

Oh yeah, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan in almost all their head-to-head matchups. When he got a good supporting cast, he reeled off three straight Finals and back-to-back chips, something Duncan could never do.


1) Duncan is matched up with Shaq, and as he's gotten older, the Lakers have gotten better with a prime Pau/Bynum. :facepalm

2) "Supporting Cast"? Kobe was Shaq's supporting cast son.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Kobe shit on Duncans in the playoffs that why Duncan never was good pick and roll and perimeter defender like KG that can shut down Kobe but Duncan cant cuz he a fausboiu:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[chopchop20]

Kobe has a higher career TS. His best playoff runs (01,08,09,10) are at least as good as Duncan's best. There is a little difference between them statistically. In fact, Kobe's 2006 and 2003 season are more impressive statistically than any single Duncan season.

Oh yeah, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan in almost all their head-to-head matchups. When he got a good supporting cast, he reeled off three straight Finals and back-to-back chips, something Duncan could never do.

Anyone who doesn't think its debatable is a moron.

I'm with you all the way. But, I don't even need that TS and all those other stats. I mean there's a 1000 different metrics you could argue.

I remember ALL of those Lakers-Spurs matchups in the playoffs when Kobe KILLED San Antonio. The Spurs were helpless against Kobe. They HAD to sign Bruce Bowen just to have a chance of slowing him down

[SamuraiSWISH]

The funny thing about what's happening to Kobe right now, it's a peek into Lebron's future.

6,7 years from now, the discussion about Lebron will be, if he is in fact top10 material.

I mean the writing is on the wall, idiots think right now Lebron should be cementing his claim to GOAT, and all he is doing is cementing the idiocy of such claim.

Dude is 28 and his jumper is still broken beyond repair, when his atheticism fades, it's going to be uglier than Wade right now.
What? LeBron's jumper has been pretty decent since 2009.

Reaching it's best in 2011 and THIS SEASON. And it's definitely better than Wade's from distance.

Wade is probably still the better mid range scorer and shooter, though. Bron will age fine.

He's got a PF sized body, put him in the post where he's decent, and watch his skill of passing and court vision give him extended longevity.

He will transition from perimeter freak athlete. A 6'8 265 lbs PG, into a 6'8 265 lbs PF who is still quicker and more athletic than the players at his position.

He'll age fine.

[chopchop20]

So those who have repeated: Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, Lakers. so 50% have 50% haven't. When did Duncan lose in the Finals?

The point being that if Duncan is go great, why didn't his team ever repeat?

And obviously he is undefeated in the Finals thus far....

[chopchop20]

What? LeBron's jumper has been pretty decent since 2009.

Reaching it's best in 2011 and THIS SEASON. And it's definitely better than Wade's from distance.

Wade is probably still the better mid range scorer and shooter, though. Bron will age fine.

He's got a PF sized body, put him in the post where he's decent, and watch his skill of passing and court vision give him extended longevity.

He will transition from perimeter freak athlete. A 6'8 265 lbs PG, into a 6'8 265 lbs PF who is still quicker and more athletic than the players at his position.

He'll age fine.

He's just gonna move closer to the post as he age. He's still have an athletic edge over post players.

Yep... he'll be fine

[Jacks3]

2) "Supporting Cast"? Kobe was Shaq's supporting cast son.
Shaq was on the 08-10 Lakers? :facepalm

[Purch]

The point being that if Duncan is go great, why didn't his team ever repeat?

And obviously he is undefeated in the Finals thus far....
I never understood the obsession with repeating. Hey it's great if it happens, but I litterally see no difference between a team that wins in 05 and 06, as opposed to 05 and 07. Only time I actually take it into consideration, is when attempting to figure out whether teams can be consider dynasties

[Jacks3]

I'm with you all the way. But, I don't even need that TS and all those other stats. I mean there's a 1000 different metrics you could argue.

I remember ALL of those Lakers-Spurs matchups in the playoffs when Kobe KILLED San Antonio. The Spurs were helpless against Kobe. They HAD to sign Bruce Bowen just to have a chance of slowing him down
Exactly. People need to go back and watch those series in 2001, 2002, 2004 AND 2008. All series where Kobe thoroughly outplayed Duncan. People praise Duncan's defense, and rightfully so, but in the end Kobe's offense was greater.

Remember: Individual offense>>>>individual defense.

[tikay0]

Shaq was on the 08-10 Lakers? :facepalm

Well, you did include his 3peat into the conversation, did you not? :confusedshrug:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

No it's not far fetched at all. Duncan has a good argument over Kobe right now, and vice versa. People have different preferences, and I'm sure you will see them ranked differently on each list.

In fact, Kobe over Duncan isn't even a clear cut choice.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has a higher career TS. His best playoff runs (01,08,09,10) are at least as good as Duncan's best. There is a little difference between them statistically. In fact, Kobe's 2006 and 2003 season are more impressive statistically than any single Duncan season.

Oh yeah, and Kobe has outplayed Duncan in almost all their head-to-head matchups. When he got a good supporting cast, he reeled off three straight Finals and back-to-back chips, something Duncan could never do.

Anyone who doesn't think its debatable is a moron.

If they played the same position or Kobe had the defensive impact Duncan does...it might matter

22/12/3 and elite interior defense for his career in the playoffs with no off court problems or ego issues and a 70% win percentage just trumps;

26/5/5 without the elite defense for his career in the playoffs with on and off court issues and ego issues...took 3 years to mature...had the luxury of playing 2nd fiddle for 8 years...etc.

Duncan's teams have never been on pace to win less than 50 games. The only year it happened they went 37-13 in the lockout year. He's won over 50 games 14 straight years now...a record.

Nobody...and I mean nobody is taking Kobe over Duncan to start a franchise on basketball terms...factor in all the BS you have to deal with...with Kobe...and it's a no brainer

[chopchop20]

I never understood the obsession with repeating. Hey it's great if it happens, but I litterally see no difference between a team that wins in 05 and 06, as opposed to 05 and 07. Only time I actually take it into consideration, is when attempting to figure out whether teams can be consider dynasties

It shows mental toughness, focus, and to some degree, there's dominance. Above all, it's a hard thing to do in any sport.

I mean what made the old Celtics great? Or Wooden's UCLA teams great? You act as if winning multiple titles in a row has nothing to do with legacy.

[chopchop20]

If they played the same position or Kobe had the defensive impact Duncan does...it might matter

22/12/3 and elite interior defense for his career in the playoffs with no off court problems or ego issues and a 70% win percentage just trumps;

26/5/5 without the elite defense for his career in the playoffs with on and off court issues and ego issues...took 3 years to mature...had the luxury of playing 2nd fiddle for 8 years...etc.

Duncan's teams have never been on pace to win less than 50 games. The only year it happened they went 37-13 in the lockout year. He's won over 50 games 14 straight years now...a record.

Nobody...and I mean nobody is taking Kobe over Duncan to start a franchise on basketball terms...factor in all the BS you have to deal with...with Kobe...and it's a no brainer

That's all subjective...

[maybeshewill13]

OP is crazy.

[Purch]

It shows mental toughness, focus, and to some degree, there's dominance. Above all, it's a hard thing to do in any sport.

I mean what made the old Celtics great? Or Wooden's UCLA teams great? You act as if winning multiple titles in a row has nothing to do with legacy.
I don't think it does at all. If a guy has 2 titles as a repeat, and another guy has two titles spaced out by a year why should I give the person with the repeat more props?

What if the second year of the repeat was significantly weaker than the 1st year?

What if in that year that a player didn't repeat, major trades were made and their conference was stronger, and they weren't healthy?

I don't give any real weight to repeating. I only look at the strength of opponents they faced, and obviously how many runs they had.


All championships take mental toughness so I don't really know where you're going with that.

[Purch]

I don't think it does at all. If a guy has 2 titles as a repeat, and another guy has two titles spaced out by a year why should I give the person with the repeat more props?

What if the second year of the repeat was significantly weaker than the 1st year?

What if in that year that a player didn't repeat, major trades were made and their conference was stronger, and they weren't healthy?

I don't give any real weight to repeating. I only look at the strength of opponents they faced, and obviously how many runs they had.


All championships take mental toughness so I don't really know where you're going with that.


A.K.A I look at the individual runs themselves, not in comparision to past runs.

[chopchop20]

I don't think it does at all. If a guy has 2 titles as a repeat, and another guy has two titles spaced out by a year why should I give the person with the repeat more props?

What if the second year of the repeat was significantly weaker than the 1st year?

What if in that year that a player didn't repeat, major trades were made and their conference was stronger, and they weren't healthy?

I don't give any real weight to repeating. I only look at the strength of opponents they faced, and obviously how many runs they had.


All championships take mental toughness so I don't really know where you're going with that.

Or what we just stuck to the facts? Wouldn't be a need for hypothetical scenarios.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Jordan having two 3peats lends a lot more to his greatness than 6 titles won non-consecutively over 12 years. If for no other reason that the perception of dominance.

[RichieW]

Nobody...and I mean nobody is taking Kobe over Duncan to start a franchise on basketball terms...factor in all the BS you have to deal with...with Kobe...and it's a no brainer

While I agree basketball-wise teams would take Duncan over Kobe, but Kobe was always the more exciting player. If you want to put asses in seats, Kobe is the player.

Personally I don't put any stock in to a players flashiness when rating them, but a GM might.

[Purch]

Or what we just stuck to the facts? Wouldn't be a need for hypothetical scenarios.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Jordan having two 3peats lends a lot more to his greatness than 6 titles won non-consecutively over 12 years. If for no other reason that the perception of dominance.

Clearly that flew over your head, because the point I was trying to get out, is that just giving repeat titles glory over non consective titles, doesn't tell us anything about the runs or give us any context. It's simply saying " He won 2 titles in a row so his titles are more valauble". That's what I was trying to say before you answered with your overly arrogant sentence.

I think the repeats added to the casual fans perception of Jordans dominance, but for people who pay attention to every run I think the individual runs themselves are whats important and the sum total. Honestly if Jordan had won his titles in; 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000. I would still percive him as the most dominant player of all time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

While I agree basketball-wise teams would take Duncan over Kobe, but Kobe was always the more exciting player. If you want to put asses in seats, Kobe is the player.

Personally I don't put any stock in to a players flashiness when rating them, but a GM might.

Frankly DMAVS hyperbole is completely wrong once again. The owners do this to make cash. They would take Kobe and his "ego issues" :oldlol: to the bank all day every day. How many people do you think would tune into a Pacers-Spurs Final?

[tpols]

Clearly that flew over your head, because the point I was trying to get out, is that just giving repeat titles glory over non consective titles, doesn't tell us anything about the runs or give us any context. It's simply saying " He won 2 titles in a row so his titles are more valauble". That's what I was trying to say before you answered with your overly arrogant sentence.

I think the repeats added to the casual fans perception of Jordans dominance, but for people who pay attention to every run I think the individual runs themselves are whats important and the sum total. Honestly if Jordan had won his titles in; 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000. I would still percive him as the most dominant player of all time.
No they wouldn't..

The two most dominant players ever Shaq and MJ are considered that because they put together a string of years where they dominated and no one could stop them. Repeats and 3peats are a sign of dominance.

Grabbing titles in between dynasties are called scavenger titles.

It's different if it's dynasty on dynasty ala Lakers celtics in the 80s..two titans battling it out, can't fault them.

But the Spurs could never beat prime Shaq when he had a good team nor prime kobe when he had a good team. They had to wait for the cracks in between.

[chopchop20]

Frankly DMAVS hyperbole is completely wrong once again. The owners do this to make cash. They would take Kobe and his "ego issues" :oldlol: to the bank all day every day. How many people do you think would tune into a Pacers-Spurs Final?

Agreed. Don't think the Lakers have any regrets over their $150 million/yr tV deal.

[bdreason]

Any planet that values winning.

[chopchop20]

Clearly that flew over your head, because the point I was trying to get out, is that just giving repeat titles glory over non consective titles, doesn't tell us anything about the runs or give us any context. It's simply saying " He won 2 titles in a row so his titles are more valauble". That's what I was trying to say before you answered with your overly arrogant sentence.

I think the repeats added to the casual fans perception of Jordans dominance, but for people who pay attention to every run I think the individual runs themselves are whats important and the sum total. Honestly if Jordan had won his titles in; 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000. I would still percive him as the most dominant player of all time.

You might, but I doubt others would. People tend to bestow more significance on accomplishments that are more difficult to achieve.

You can win a race, but it looks a lot better if you set a record while doing it.

Basically which one would you think a fan or a player want?

[Purch]

No they wouldn't..

The two most dominant players ever Shaq and MJ are considered that because they put together a string of years where they dominated and no one could stop them. Repeats and 3peats are a sign of dominance.

Grabbing titles in between dynasties are called scavenger titles.

It's different if it's dynasty on dynasty ala Lakers celtics in the 80s..two titans battling it out, can't fault them.

But the Spurs could never beat prime Shaq when he had a good team nor prime kobe when he had a good team. They had to wait for the cracks in between.
I disagree, I think they're considered two of the greatest because they were at their best two of the single most dominant players of all time, and they were WINNERS.


This really is such a weird concept.


So lets say


2003 Spurs won the championship
2004 Pistons won
2005 Spurs won


Are the pistons then considered scavengers?


Or

are the 2006 heat considered scavangers because they won in between two of the Spurs championship years?


What if you win a title in between two differnt teams like the Mavs did with the Lakers in 2010 and the heat in 2012?


It just seems like a really "Nitpicky" concept

[chopchop20]

Any planet that values winning.

A planet where 4 > 5 :confusedshrug:

[Euroleague]

Simmons isn't crazy. He's just a ****ing retard.

[Purch]

You might, but I doubt others would. People tend to bestow more significance on accomplishments that are more difficult to achieve.

You can win a race, but it looks a lot better if you set a record while doing it.

Basically which one would you think a fan or a player want?


Depends, I don't think Spurs fans would have rather they won the championship in 2000, for the repeat, instead of in 2003 when David Robinson was able to go out on top.

Now that's very specific, but the point is, imo what makes runs significant is the individiual runs themselves, not how they relate to other runs by the team.

[nosfan773]

FACT - Duncan > Kobe

[knicksman]

Dude that's all SUBJECTIVE. The reality is that Kobe has 5 rings. He did 3peat. He did repeat.

Why do we have to go to the realm of make believe? If..coulda... shoulda... woulda...

It's equally subjective to say that.

1. Tony Parker was the best player on the team when the Spurs last won a title

2. Tony Parker is the best player on the Spurs NOW

3. Tony Parker has been the best player on the Spurs for the last 5 years or more

4. Kobe Bryant has been the best player on the Lakers for the last 10 years


Its harder to win in a small market than to 3 peat. 3peat is common for big markets

[caliman]

Dude that's all SUBJECTIVE. The reality is that Kobe has 5 rings. He did 3peat. He did repeat.

Why do we have to go to the realm of make believe? If..coulda... shoulda... woulda...

It's equally subjective to say that.

1. Tony Parker was the best player on the team when the Spurs last won a title

2. Tony Parker is the best player on the Spurs NOW

3. Tony Parker has been the best player on the Spurs for the last 5 years or more

4. Kobe Bryant has been the best player on the Lakers for the last 10 years


1. False, despite Parker winning FMVP.

2. True, but they aren't in the Finals without Duncan doing his thing on offense and still providing elite defense.

Either can be argued over the other. It is definitely not cut and dry.

[knicksman]

Very true. It should all mentioned that several of Duncan's rings have come through extreme luck.

99-Lockout.
03--Injuries to Kobe and Shaq. Dirk out. Webber out. Plays worst Finals team in history.
07--Suspensions to Amare/Diaw. Another historically poor Finals opp.

The fact that Duncan could never manage to even make back-to-back Finals appearances is definitely a black mark...

you could say the same with kobe having shaq in his 1st 3peat and then stern gifting pjax his 11th ring so he could retire as the winningest coach in the history.

[chopchop20]

Depends, I don't think Spurs fans would have rather they won the championship in 2000, for the repeat, instead of in 2003 when David Robinson was able to go out on top.

Now that's very specific, but the point is, imo what makes runs significant is the individiual runs themselves, not how they relate to other runs by the team.

Less keep in mind why there was a 3 year gap for the Spurs there.

All I know, in any sports the ability to repeat is a huge competitive drive individually. It's one thing for you to casually dismiss it, but I know it fuels athletes to go out and want to win even more. Just think about LeBron and what he has a chance to do this year.

And I'm just wondering why that personal drive, that burning desire never translated into back-to-back championships during Duncan's reign. Or at the very least consecutive Finals appearances.

Yet, the guy who's supposed to be lesser than you did it twice. And... you as the so-called greatest of your generation had the opportunity stop him.

So to me it's a convenient excuse to say, well winning consecutive championships isn't a big deal. When the fact is what prevented the so-called greatest from repeating is the other guy winning. I think it's reasonable to assume that the Spurs would have won two in a row at least once if they could have beaten the Lakers.

[chopchop20]

Its harder to win in a small market than to 3 peat. 3peat is common for big markets

Market size does not not determine who wins. Ask the Knicks.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe 2001 WCFinals vs Duncans Spurs - 33PPG 7reb 7ast

Shaq - " Kobe's the best player in the Word"

Phil Jackson - " Kobe the best all around player I ever coached"

Pop - " You can't stop Kobe....he is unstoppable"



ISHtrolls 2013 - " Kobe was just the 2nd best player....his 5 Rings don't mean as much as Duncan's 4"


:hammerhead:

[chopchop20]

Kobe 2001 WCFinals vs Duncans Spurs - 33PPG 7reb 7ast

Shaq - " Kobe's the best player in the Word"

Phil Jackson - " Kobe the best all around player I ever coached"

Pop - " You can't stop Kobe....he is unstoppable"



ISHtrolls 2013 - " Kobe was just the 2nd best player....his 5 Rings don't mean as much as Duncan's 4"


:hammerhead:

The same game where Duncan scored like 15 points and the game before when he scored 9 points.

But for real, I don't to see the quotes... I need to look at the stats... I WATCHED all of those games of the Spurs vs Lakers in the playoffs back then.

Bruce Bowen saved the Spurs... trust me. He was definitely a factor in preventing a Lakers 4-peat.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It would be crazy to act like 2000 Kobe wasn't a sidekick, AlphaWolf24. It would be blissfully ignorant, or just flat our wrong.

In 2001 the line absolutely blurred, especially during the playoffs and WCF.

In 2002, Kobe fell back to pseudo sidekick, pseudo co alpha. Somewhere in between his 2001 and 2000 role. So for that season I call him a sidekick.

I don't think it's ridiculous to call Kobe a sidekick for his 2000 and 2002 championships. And for 2001 to call him a co-alpha. So that would put him at 2 rings as absolute best player on his team and leader (2009 and 2010) Different categories being best player as well as leader of a team. 1 ring as co-best player, but not the teams' leader (2001), and two as definitive sidekick status.

[steve]

I must have missed something, but what does repeating have to do with an individual player? Between '03 to '07, did Duncan do something that cost the Spurs a chance to repeat? Isn't a team that repeats more reflective of the team than any individual player? Isn't Duncan winning 4 titles without ever being on a traditionally "great" team something that should be counted in his favor?

[longtime lurker]

Any planet that values winning.

Kobe has won more than Duncan

[jzek]

It's called having an opinion, OP.

[AlphaWolf24]

It would be crazy to act like 2000 Kobe wasn't a sidekick, AlphaWolf24. It would be blissfully ignorant, or just flat our wrong.

In 2001 the line absolutely blurred, especially during the playoffs and WCF.

In 2002, Kobe fell back to pseudo sidekick, pseudo co alpha. Somewhere in between his 2001 and 2000 role. So for that season I call him a sidekick.

I don't think it's ridiculous to call Kobe a sidekick for his 2000 and 2002 championships. And for 2001 to call him a co-alpha. So that would put him at 2 rings as absolute best player on his team and leader (2009 and 2010) Different categories being best player as well as leader of a team. 1 ring as co-best player, but not the teams' leader (2001), and two as definitive sidekick status.


The offense ran through Kobe...Kobe tok more FG's then Shaq during the 02' playoff's...and Kobe was once again he man option in crunchtime.

He played the same rol as Jordan did in the Bull's 3 peat....and just like MJ...he won Titles.

Shaq dominated a weak eastern conference team with Todd Mullculoch...Kobetime wasn't even in full effect in the Finals.

The real NBA Finals was the WCFinals..where Kobe was the best player in 01' and 02'

( heck he was even the best player in Game 7 of the 00 WCFinals...the game that stared it all)


(thumps chest)...2EZ...........next

[chopchop20]

It would be crazy to act like 2000 Kobe wasn't a sidekick, AlphaWolf24. It would be blissfully ignorant, or just flat our wrong.

In 2001 the line absolutely blurred, especially during the playoffs and WCF.

In 2002, Kobe fell back to pseudo sidekick, pseudo co alpha. Somewhere in between his 2001 and 2000 role. So for that season I call him a sidekick.

I don't think it's ridiculous to call Kobe a sidekick for his 2000 and 2002 championships. And for 2001 to call him a co-alpha. So that would put him at 2 rings as absolute best player on his team and leader (2009 and 2010) Different categories being best player as well as leader of a team. 1 ring as co-best player, but not the teams' leader (2001), and two as definitive sidekick status.

Just call him a 3-peat champion and cut the rest.

[AlphaWolf24]

Any planet that values winning.
so Kobe>TD.....Kobe's won more titles.:confusedshrug:

[bagelred]

On the planet Awesome.

[rmt]

If the goal is to win championships, I would bet my house that most GMs would pick Duncan over Kobe. Kobe has had the benefit of:

1. better owner (who doesn't trade away talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract) - willing to spend

2. better team mates - 8 years as a 2nd option to MDE

3. better coach - Phil came to LA as a 6 time champion while Pop had 146 (73-73) NBA games under his belt before their 1st championship year.

4. more salary - see 2012-13 ($100.3m vs $69.5m)

5. better city to attract free agents

Duncan has had to do with a lot less than Kobe. There is no throwing team mates under the bus, forcing future HOFer out of town, asking to be traded, rape charges, giving up in playoff games, missing the playoffs, drama or ego.

Instead, the GM gets consistent excellence, wins over 70% of games, makes the playoffs every year (50+wins), better leader, better team mate, no drama, no ego, effort on BOTH sides of the floor, easy to build around, allows players to grow and develop around him, doesn't ball-hog.

Most playoff blocks
Most playoff defensive rebounds
2nd most playoff double-doubles
4 rings as the man
2 MVPs
3 FMVPs
highest winning percentage over a 15 year period
only player on all-nba and all-defensive teams 1st 13 years of his career

[chopchop20]

I must have missed something, but what does repeating have to do with an individual player? Between '03 to '07, did Duncan do something that cost the Spurs a chance to repeat? Isn't a team that repeats more reflective of the team than any individual player? Isn't Duncan winning 4 titles without ever being on a traditionally "great" team something that should be counted in his favor?

As you compare greatness, you move up the measuring stick of accomplishments.

The fact that makes this most relevant here is that Duncan and Kobe competed head-to-head.

You can't just act as if Kobe going to 3 straight finals 2 different times is a side-note in his career. I mean after all, how many great players have done it?

[SoCalLakersFan1]

I think Kobe is greater than Duncan, but it is certainly up for debate.
Duncan seems to end up ahead in every advanced stat, while Kobe seems to come up big when it matters (more than other players). Kobe also has a playoff H2H advantage over Duncan.
And most people won't consider this a factor, but I think Kobe extremely well under pressure/scrutiny; L.A. is one of the toughest markets to play in because every minute played is judged by hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Personal lives aren't as personal and every year is championship or bust. Kobe has played and thrived in that environment for 17 years.

[longtime lurker]

blah blah blah :rant :mad:

Fixed

[chazzy]

I've always had them close all time either way, people acting like it's not are caught up in the moment.

[chopchop20]

If the goal is to win championships, I would bet my house that most GMs would pick Duncan over Kobe. Kobe has had the benefit of:

1. better owner (who doesn't trade away talent like Scola just to get rid of Jackie Butler's contract) - willing to spend

2. better team mates - 8 years as a 2nd option to MDE

3. better coach - Phil came to LA as a 6 time champion while Pop had 146 (73-73) NBA games under his belt before their 1st championship year.

4. more salary - see 2012-13 ($100.3m vs $69.5m)

5. better city to attract free agents

Duncan has had to do with a lot less than Kobe. There is no throwing team mates under the bus, forcing future HOFer out of town, asking to be traded, rape charges, giving up in playoff games, missing the playoffs, drama or ego.

Instead, the GM gets consistent excellence, wins over 70% of games, makes the playoffs every year (50+wins), better leader, better team mate, no drama, no ego, effort on BOTH sides of the floor, easy to build around, allows players to grow and develop around him, doesn't ball-hog.

Most playoff blocks
Most playoff defensive rebounds
2nd most playoff double-doubles
4 rings as the man
2 MVPs
3 FMVPs
highest winning percentage over a 15 year period
only player on all-nba and all-defensive teams 1st 13 years of his career

What greater indicator of consistent excellence than titles won?

70% this... and 50% that.... at the end of the day it adds up to 4 titles.

Kobe Bryant 1st 14 years in the NBA
- 7 Finals Appearances
- 5 Championships
- One 3-Peat
- One Repeat

And for the love of Good, don't even bring individual accomplishments into this. Cuz we gonna need like 100 pages to list all of the impressive things that Kobe has done in his career.

[chopchop20]

I think Kobe is greater than Duncan, but it is certainly up for debate.
Duncan seems to end up ahead in every advanced stat, while Kobe seems to come up big when it matters (more than other players). Kobe also has a playoff H2H advantage over Duncan.
And most people won't consider this a factor, but I think Kobe extremely well under pressure/scrutiny; L.A. is one of the toughest markets to play in because every minute played is judged by hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Personal lives aren't as personal and every year is championship or bust. Kobe has played and thrived in that environment for 17 years.

Good point about toughness especially when you look deeper at some of the Spurs losses in the Playoffs. They have a history of mental fragility. Fisher's 0.4 shot changed the series that the Spurs should have won. Just last year, up 2-0 and get swept the remaining 4 games.

And really going way back in the day. Look at those games in the playoffs against the Lakers. Duncan short-arming easy shots and missing free throws when the pressure on.

[SpecialQue]

Simmons also believes that every Spurs championship has an asterix next to it and has always talked shit about Kobe. Further, after the Decision he said Lebron would never be on Jordan's level, then after last season he wrote an article on how Lebron might get to or surpass Jordan.

I wouldn't take anything this clown says seriously.

[Anaximandro1]

Simmons can't tolerate people who rewrite the history to please the enormous Lakers fan base

First 10 years in the league
[QUOTE]
[B]Playoffs (1998

[SpecialQue]

I personally think, as an individual player, Kobe's better. As a team player, Duncan probably has the edge.

[stanlove1111]

The problem with this is that Kobe won 3 of his titles and went to the finals 4 of his 7 times as the 2nd best player on his team.

if Duncan was ever the 2nd best player on his team in his prime...trust me, you would have seen dominance. hell, if Duncan ever had a true 2nd star during his prime the likes of that Kobe did...you would have seen dominance.

Just imagine Duncan and Dirk playing 8 years together...or Duncan and Wade/Lebron playing 8 years together.


Bingo..When anyone mentions Kobe's title count without putting them into context I can't even take them seriously..

And I really think its sick that people let the NBA get away with fixing the 2002 title for the Lakers by ignoring the fix..Kobe really only has 4 titles..A ref went to jail for handing them the 5th..Does not count..Everyone who watched knows the Kings really won that series..

But please no more simplistic Kobe won 5 garbage as proof he is better then anyone who only won 4..

[longtime lurker]

I personally think, as an individual player, Kobe's better. As a team player, Duncan probably has the edge.

Kobe is player of the decade and his teams have had more success. I don't know what else you could ask from the guy. I sometimes think if Dywane Wade had his exact same career people would argue he's top 5 all time.

[knicksman]

Market size does not not determine who wins. Ask the Knicks.

Ok.. I didnt know that LA, boston and chicago became small markets.

[The-Legend-24]

Dude said Duncan's greater than Shaq and Kobe, :oldlol: nigguh never won back2back titles. What a joke.

[sportjames23]

Business just picked up. Some more. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

And I really think its sick that people let the NBA get away with fixing the 2002 title for the Lakers by ignoring the fix..Kobe really only has 4 titles..A ref went to jail for handing them the 5th..Does not count..Everyone who watched knows the Kings really won that series..

:oldlol: at this sensationalist hyperbole.

[chopchop20]

Bingo..When anyone mentions Kobe's title count without putting them into context I can't even take them seriously..

And I really think its sick that people let the NBA get away with fixing the 2002 title for the Lakers by ignoring the fix..Kobe really only has 4 titles..A ref went to jail for handing them the 5th..Does not count..Everyone who watched knows the Kings really won that series..

But please no more simplistic Kobe won 5 garbage as proof he is better then anyone who only won 4..

But the context that you speak of is only your interpretation of the FACTS. How you FEEL about reality does not change it.

[chopchop20]

Ok.. I didnt know that LA, boston and chicago became small markets.

Enlighten me...

[tpols]

Kobe is player of the decade and his teams have had more success. I don't know what else you could ask from the guy. I sometimes think if Dywane Wade had his exact same career people would argue he's top 5 all time.
If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.

His career is under a microscope way more than Duncan's and when you have a legion of haters there will be new and creative perspectives created everyday to slight him.

So ironic that Duncan's team was the team he found easy as cake to bust on his whole career.

[chopchop20]

Simmons can't tolerate people who rewrite the history to please the enormous Lakers fan base

First 10 years in the league



Kobe is better since 2008 (Duncan turned 32 years old)

Kobe won a couple of titles as #1 in 2009 and 2010 and 3MVPs, insufficient to close the massive gap created in (1998-2007)

BTW Kobe won his last title when he was 31.He didn't do anything remarkable since 2010



Exactly

Where is Kobe?

GM Survey: If you were starting a franchise today and could sign any player in the NBA, who would it be?


The reason is pretty simple.Prime Duncan was a beast on both ends of the floor,and on top of that,he was an excellent team player

Side note: don't be fooled by the regular season and the first round








Well said


-2000 Duncan missed the playoffs after suffering a torn left lateral meniscus.No way the Lakers win in 2000

-2004 Duncan hit a last-second GW against Shaq in 2004 in G5.The next thing you know,is that Derek Fisher hits a "0.4" miracle shot.

-2006 Duncan put up 41/15 in Game 7.The Spurs had the series in their hands,but Manu committed a stupid foul

-2008 Duncan was 32.Kobe was better.


In your imagination



BTW Shaq+Duncan would have won more than 3 titles together

So basically, 2008 - 2013 never happened. Good to know. :banana:

[knicksman]

Enlighten me...

Looks like someone started watching basketball only when kobe was a champion.

[chopchop20]

If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.

His career is under a microscope way more than Duncan's and when you have a legion of haters there will be new and creative perspectives created everyday to slight him.

So ironic that Duncan's team was the team he found easy as cake to bust on his whole career.

Exactly. And Kobe seems to have always taken this matchup very personally, just based on the number of times that he has dunked on Tim Duncan alone. :oldlol:

[longtime lurker]

If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.

His career is under a microscope way more than Duncan's and when you have a legion of haters there will be new and creative perspectives created everyday to slight him.

So ironic that Duncan's team was the team he found easy as cake to bust on his whole career.

It's crazy that literally everyone outside of the internet respects Kobe as one of the all time greats and can evaluate his career in the proper perspective. Then when you log on to insidehoops you have legions of heavily biased posters that aren't even consistent with their arguments.

[jzek]

Kobe may have more titles but he has fewer FMVP? Why because he got carried to 3 of them (by Shaq who won FMVP).

[longtime lurker]

Kobe may have more titles but he has fewer FMVP? Why because he got carried to 3 of them (by Shaq who won FMVP).

Jesus Christ this has got to be the dumbest line of reasoning on this board. I guess if you repeat something enough people start to think it's true.

[DMAVS41]

If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.

His career is under a microscope way more than Duncan's and when you have a legion of haters there will be new and creative perspectives created everyday to slight him.

So ironic that Duncan's team was the team he found easy as cake to bust on his whole career.

I just don't think Kobe ever played well enough or was dominant enough to for sure be ahead of guys like wilt, hakeem, shaq, duncan, magic, and bird...has nothing to do with his rape case.

if mj, russell, and kareem are untouchable...kobe has to pass a lot of the guys above to be top 5. don't think he's done enough yet to warrant that from purely a basketball perspective.

factor in all his on and off court troubles and it's hard to argue him over a guy like Duncan.

[daj0264]

bigs>

[stephanieg]

Man, Kobe is gonna be crazy overrated after he retires, isn't he?

[32MJ32]

Simmons has always been a Kobe hater.

This

It may or may not be true that Duncan is a) better than Kobe and/or b) had a better career (I don't believe the two to be the same thing), but Simmons' opinion on it cannot be taken seriously.

The guy is trying to wear his "Ultimate Celtics Fan" and "Unbiased NBA Analyst" hat at the same time. It's impossible to be both

[TheBigVeto]

Earth.

This. And every other real planet in the universe.
He ain't crazy.

Kobe is better only in Kobetards' minds.

[Jacks3]

If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.

His career is under a microscope way more than Duncan's and when you have a legion of haters there will be new and creative perspectives created everyday to slight him.

So ironic that Duncan's team was the team he found easy as cake to bust on his whole career.
This X1000. If a guy like West or Wade had the career Bryant has had, they'd be considered top 5 All-Time.

[DMAVS41]

This X1000. If a guy like West or Wade had the career Bryant has had, they'd be considered top 5 All-Time.

But who is this player for sure kicking out?

You have;

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan

You are telling me that people would be definitively ranking Kobe over the likes of Shaq, Bird, Duncan, and Hakeem? I just don't see it.

Kobe is right where he should be based on his career and how good he was.

[stanlove1111]

But the context that you speak of is only your interpretation of the FACTS. How you FEEL about reality does not change it.


Total rubbish. A ref went to jail for throwing it..Thats a fact...

Kobe was not the best player on 5 title teams..Thats a fact..

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

On what planet is Duncan better than Kobe?

I don't think it's crazy. If you ask all the NBA teams who would you rather start a franchise with...I bet you don't get a consensus answer

[stanlove1111]

:oldlol: at this sensationalist hyperbole.

So spouting facts is now sensational hyperbole? Only in the world of a moron.

[chopchop20]

Total rubbish. A ref went to jail for throwing it..Thats a fact...

Kobe was not the best player on 5 title teams..Thats a fact..

Ummmmm... neither was Tim Duncan

[Lebron23]

Ummmmm... neither was Tim Duncan


3 Finals MVP and 2 MVP >> 1 MVP, and 2 Finals MVP.

[chopchop20]

3 Finals MVP and 2 MVP >> 1 MVP, and 2 Finals MVP.

5 Rings >>> 4 Rings :confusedshrug:

[The-Legend-24]

Kobe damn near three-peated twice with two different teams, Duncan hasn't even done a back2back once, let alone twice like Kobe.

This nigguh's been a role player on his OWN team the past like 4 years, but he's somehow better than a guy that's been an elite player in the league for almost his whole career? Ok.

[bence23]

No they wouldn't..

The two most dominant players ever Shaq and MJ are considered that because they put together a string of years where they dominated and no one could stop them. Repeats and 3peats are a sign of dominance.

Grabbing titles in between dynasties are called scavenger titles.

It's different if it's dynasty on dynasty ala Lakers celtics in the 80s..two titans battling it out, can't fault them.

But the Spurs could never beat prime Shaq when he had a good team nor prime kobe when he had a good team. They had to wait for the cracks in between.
the larry bird celtics never repeated....

[chopchop20]

Kobe damn near three-peated twice with two different teams, Duncan hasn't even done a back2back once, let alone twice like Kobe.

This nigguh's been a role player on his OWN team the past like 4 years, but he's somehow better than a guy that's been an elite player in the league for almost his whole career? Ok.

THIS.

Last time Spurs won, Parker was the MVP of the Finals.

Duncan been shutting it down in the regular season since 2007, resting during the regular season, putting up pedestrian numbers half the time.

While during that same period, Kobe went back to the Finals 3 times, won 2 in a row, and has been a legitimate MVP candidate each season.

Kobe did so much WORK this year. Showing his incredible versatility by being a dominant scorer and switching it up as a very capable floor general. And he damm sure wasn't flying back home when it was time to play the Miami Heat just to get some rest.

[DMAVS41]

THIS.

Last time Spurs won, Parker was the MVP of the Finals.

Duncan been shutting it down in the regular season since 2007, resting during the regular season, putting up pedestrian numbers half the time.

While during that same period, Kobe went back to the Finals 3 times, won 2 in a row, and has been a legitimate MVP candidate each season.

Kobe did so much WORK this year. Showing his incredible versatility by being a dominant scorer and switching it up as a very capable floor general. And he damm sure wasn't flying back home when it was time to play the Miami Heat just to get some rest.

And Duncan did WORK this year as a first team all nba player and arguably the best defensive player in the league. I think Duncan certainly proved it isn't Gasol in the last series.

Oh...and Duncan is now in the finals and healthy because he listens to his coach and rests when he's told to. Kobe is...well, hurt. Because of all that WORK...

And since when is a 18/10/3 pf/c that gives you elite interior and team defense a role player?

Duncan could be argued to be about as good as anyone this year outside of Lebron and Durant. Only guys in the playoffs that have been better were Durant, Lebron, and Parker so far.

And whatever Duncan has done over the previous 3 years...it doesn't compare to how bad Kobe was his first 3 years in the league.

I'll say it again...and everyone deep down knows it true. Duncan at his best was better than Kobe at his best...and Kobe at his worst was worse than Duncan at his worst.

Duncan > Kobe as of now after this year.

[chopchop20]

And Duncan did WORK this year as a first team all nba player and arguably the best defensive player in the league. I think Duncan certainly proved it isn't Gasol in the last series.

Oh...and Duncan is now in the finals and healthy because he listens to his coach and rests when he's told to. Kobe is...well, hurt. Because of all that WORK...

And since when is a 18/10/3 pf/c that gives you elite interior and team defense a role player?

Duncan could be argued to be about as good as anyone this year outside of Lebron and Durant. Only guys in the playoffs that have been better were Durant, Lebron, and Parker so far.

And whatever Duncan has done over the previous 3 years...it doesn't compare to how bad Kobe was his first 3 years in the league.

I'll say it again...and everyone deep down knows it true. Duncan at his best was better than Kobe at his best...and Kobe at his worst was worse than Duncan at his worst.

Duncan > Kobe as of now after this year.

Pass the Ganja

[Jacks3]

Kobe's 06-09 regular season run were more impressive than any regular season run for Dunkedon.

Kobe's 08-10 post-season runs were more impressive than any multi-year run from Dunkedon.

Kobe's best statistical seasons are more impressive than Duncan's best.

Kobe outplayed Dunkedon in 2001, 2002, 2004, AND 2008.

Kobe has better longevity.

Kobe as the #1 option led his team to three straight Finals and back-to-back rings; Duncan could never even manage back-to-back appearances.

Kobe has more rings.

Kobe has generated far more money for his franchise and the league; his cultural footprint destroys Dunckedon's.

Kobe>Dunkedon.

Deal with it!

:pimp:

[AintNoSunshine]

On any planet

[DMAVS41]

Pass the Ganja

Marc Gasol won defensive player of the year. I think Duncan is a better defender than him...and I'm not crazy to believe that at all. We just saw Duncan absolutely shut down the Grizzlies interior game...

Wait...so you consider a 18/10/3 big providing elite defense a role player? Please answer.

Did you happen to be alive or watch Kobe play his first 3 years. Definitely not as good as Duncan over the last 3 years. It's not even debatable.

Outside of Parker, Lebron, and Durant...who has performed better in the playoffs this year?

The only other guys I could think of are Curry and Paul. And I'll take what Duncan provides over both of them for what they did in the playoffs. Wouldn't argue with someone taking Paul I guess...

And the best part about all of this is that is just proves Duncan's value. Duncan is playing his best ball in years...and the Spurs are back in the finals...shocking how that works.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe's 06-09 regular season run were more impressive than any regular season run for Dunkedon.

Kobe's 08-10 post-season runs were more impressive than any multi-year run from Dunkedon.

Kobe's best statistical seasons are more impressive than Duncan's best.

Kobe outplayed Dunkedon in 2001, 2002, 2004, AND 2008.

Kobe has better longevity.

Kobe as the #1 option led his team to three straight Finals and back-to-back rings; Duncan could never even manage back-to-back appearances.

Kobe has more rings.

Kobe has generated far more money for his franchise and the league; his cultural footprint destroys Dunckedon's.

Kobe>Dunkedon.

Deal with it!

:pimp:

A lot of arbitrary crap in here...

But how does Kobe have better longevity? Kobe was a throw away player for his first 3 years. And now Kobe missed the entire playoffs with an injury. And he missed them in 05 because of being hurt all year again.

You can't just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...and you certainly can't ignore the fact that Kobe has completely worn down 2 of the last 3 years at the end of the year.

[chopchop20]

Marc Gasol won defensive player of the year. I think Duncan is a better defender than him...and I'm not crazy to believe that at all. We just saw Duncan absolutely shut down the Grizzlies interior game...

Wait...so you consider a 18/10/3 big providing elite defense a role player? Please answer.

Did you happen to be alive or watch Kobe play his first 3 years. Definitely not as good as Duncan over the last 3 years. It's not even debatable.

Outside of Parker, Lebron, and Durant...who has performed better in the playoffs this year?

The only other guys I could think of are Curry and Paul. And I'll take what Duncan provides over both of them for what they did in the playoffs. Wouldn't argue with someone taking Paul I guess...

And the best part about all of this is that is just proves Duncan's value. Duncan is playing his best ball in years...and the Spurs are back in the finals...shocking how that works.

You do realize that there's team concept to defense right? I mean the reason that Memphis was less effective scoring in the interior had less to do with the individual defense of Duncan and Splitter, and more to the fact that Memphis is a poor perimeter shooting team.

[Shepseskaf]

Duncan followed a great example in David Robinson by allowing for a younger teammate to shine.

Don't get it twisted, though. Parker may be the Spurs best player, but Duncan is still the team leader.

The problem is that Kobe isn't going to gracefully step down and give the stage to anyone else. The achilles injury is just going to prolong the inevitable ugly situation where he pursues his individual agenda instead of a team agenda.

Kobe's inability to even step aside slightly for Dwight will end up in DHo walking. Some Lakers fans may think that's a good thing, but its really not.

[chopchop20]

A lot of arbitrary crap in here...

But how does Kobe have better longevity? Kobe was a throw away player for his first 3 years. And now Kobe missed the entire playoffs with an injury. And he missed them in 05 because of being hurt all year again.

You can't just ignore Kobe's first 3 years...and you certainly can't ignore the fact that Kobe has completely worn down 2 of the last 3 years at the end of the year.

So how do you explain....

Kobe> All-NBA 1st Team Selections (tied with Karl Malone for most all time)
Kobe > All Defensive 1st Team Selections
Kobe > All Star Games

No longevity? And he threw away 3 years too?

:confusedshrug:

[miles berg]

Lol because Duncan is better than Kobe and always has been.

[DMAVS41]

So how do you explain....

Kobe> All-NBA 1st Team Selections (tied with Karl Malone for most all time)
Kobe > All Defensive 1st Team Selections
Kobe > All Star Games

No longevity? And he threw away 3 years too?

:confusedshrug:

What do you mean no longevity? Kobe has great longevity. I just don't see how it is any better than Duncan's considering Kobe's first 3 years are worse than any 3 years of Duncan's career...combined with the fact that Duncan just turned in a better year than Kobe this year.

So I just don't see how longevity is used in Kobe's favor at this point.

[chopchop20]

What do you mean no longevity? Kobe has great longevity. I just don't see how it is any better than Duncan's considering Kobe's first 3 years are worse than any 3 years of Duncan's career...combined with the fact that Duncan just turned in a better year than Kobe this year.

So I just don't see how longevity is used in Kobe's favor at this point.

But why has Kobe accomplished more with those 3, so-called terrible years? :confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

But why has Kobe accomplished more with those 3, so-called terrible years? :confusedshrug:

what do you mean...accomplished more?

that is like me saying...why has Kobe not won 70% of his games. Why has Kobe not won 3 finals mvp's. why has kobe not won 4 titles as the best player on his team

why has kobe not won a nba record 14 straight season with over 50 wins...should be 16 if not for the 99 lockout.

why has Kobe never won a title without an all nba teammate?

[swag2011]

What do you mean no longevity? Kobe has great longevity. I just don't see how it is any better than Duncan's considering Kobe's first 3 years are worse than any 3 years of Duncan's career...combined with the fact that Duncan just turned in a better year than Kobe this year.

So I just don't see how longevity is used in Kobe's favor at this point.

Duncan was NOT better than Kobe this year. Stop. Tony Parker has been their best player the last few years and was their best player again this year. Don't forget HE was the MVP candidate this year. Not Duncan. Sure Duncan was great this year, let's not act like he was like this the last 2 or 3 years though. This is his first year making all nba 1st team in how long? It's like Duncan's resurgence this year makes people forget that he wasn't like this in the past few years.

Let me tell you, if Kobe lost to an 8th seed when he was the number 1 seed like Duncan did, Kobe would never live that down. Instead of being called a top 10-12 player all time, most would say he's barely top 20.

[KyleKong]

Duncan is and always will be better than Kobe Bryant.

[chopchop20]

what do you mean...accomplished more?

that is like me saying...why has Kobe not won 70% of his games. Why has Kobe not won 3 finals mvp's. why has kobe not won 4 titles as the best player on his team

why has kobe not won a nba record 14 straight season with over 50 wins...should be 16 if not for the 99 lockout.

why has Kobe never won a title without an all nba teammate?

Ummmm... I won't give you a business lesson. But.... winning 70% of your games is not a goal -- if we assume that the DESIRED OUTCOME is to win the championship. You could win 85% of your games and still choke in the playoffs every year and not win 1 title.

I work in internet marketing. While it's nice to get a million website visitors a month, WTF does it mean if you don't make one sale?

[Anaximandro1]

that is like me saying...why has Kobe not won 70% of his games. Why has Kobe not won 3 finals mvp's. why has kobe not won 4 titles as the best player on his team

why has kobe not won a nba record 14 straight season with over 50 wins...should be 16 if not for the 99 lockout.

why has Kobe never won a title without an all nba teammate?

Kobe has never won back-to back mvps

Kobe has never won mvp and fmvp in the same season

Kobe w/o Shaq/Gasol is a first round virgin

[chopchop20]

Duncan was NOT better than Kobe this year. Stop. Tony Parker has been their best player the last few years and was their best player again this year. Don't forget HE was the MVP candidate this year. Not Duncan. Sure Duncan was great this year, let's not act like he was like this the last 2 or 3 years though. This is his first year making all nba 1st team in how long? It's like Duncan's resurgence this year makes people forget that he wasn't like this in the past few years.

Let me tell you, if Kobe lost to an 8th seed when he was the number 1 seed like Duncan did, Kobe would never live that down. Instead of being called a top 10-12 player all time, most would say he's barely top 20.

Plus let's not forget after being up 2-0 last year, losing 4 straight games (as the favorite)

[chopchop20]

Kobe has never won back-to back mvps

Kobe has never won mvp and fmvp in the same season

Kobe w/o Shaq/Gasol is a first round virgin

So we're giving MVPs (something that's voted on) more significance than Championships (something that's earned)?

[DickeySimpkins]

Where the fu*k did this myth come from that Duncan became a role player after 07? :roll: Dudes here are acting like he has been putting up Taj Gibson production the last 6 years.

07-08: Plays 78 games and has a 24 per, averaging 19/11 in 34 mpg. Anchors the third ranked defense in the league. Spurs defense the biggest reason the team wins 58 games that season as their offense is middle of the pick. Has struggles shooting in the playoffs but still averages 20/15 a game. Dude shut Pau Gasol down in the WCF. Spurs also finish with the third ranked D in the playoffs despite playing elite offenses all three rounds.

08-09- Despite a transition year for the Spurs with Ginobili missing almost half the season and the role players from the dynasty years all in the end of their careers, Duncan anchors the 5th ranked D and (along with Parker) leads the Spurs to 54 wins. Once again, Duncan averages 19/11 a game despite not playing major minutes to inflate his box score stats. In the playoffs, the team is trounced by the Mavs but the Spurs were clearly over matched for many reasons due to Manu and all the role players sucking collective ass (seriously.. go look at their stats). The Spurs were literally a two man show with only Parker and Duncan playing well.

09-10- Duncan averages 18/10 despite playing only 31 mpg. This is when poppovich decided to go with smaller lineups, often playing Blair and old ass McDyess alongside Duncan (and soft Matt Bonner). Due to this, and Duncan's decline in lateral quickness, the defense declines but still finishes number 8 (anchored by Timmy). He till was solid in the playoffs 19/10 on 52% shooting (terrible from the ft line tho).

In 10-11, the Spurs went with a new approach and Pop re-tinkered the offense. For this particular season, TD was a role player albeit a really productive role player. His numbers may look role-playerish in 11-12 but he averaged 15/9 in only 28 mpg which is damn impressive. Led the Spurs in Per in the reg season and playoffs (not the greatest stat but still says something) and turned his play up in the playoffs. This season, he was 1a/1b with Parker for the regular season. Anchored the top 5 man unit defensively in the league and one of the top defenses in the L overall. Unlike previous seasons, Spurs were better on defense this season than they were on offense. Parker has been the man in the playoffs but TD has been the second best player, dominating on defense and being the main cog the front court that shut down Gasol/Randolph.

The point of this long post is to show you that TD has produced at a level that only a handful of players have been similar or better than over the last 6 seasons: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, CP3, and Durant. Dude has still been one of the best players in the L. Lets not act like career spiraled off a cliff after 07.

[chopchop20]

Where the fu*k did this myth come from that Duncan became a role player after 07? :roll: Dudes here are acting like he has been putting up Taj Gibson production the last 6 years.

07-08: Plays 78 games and has a 24 per, averaging 19/11 in 34 mpg. Anchors the third ranked defense in the league. Spurs defense the biggest reason the team wins 58 games that season as their offense is middle of the pick. Has struggles shooting in the playoffs but still averages 20/15 a game. Dude shut Pau Gasol down in the WCF. Spurs also finish with the third ranked D in the playoffs despite playing elite offenses all three rounds.

08-09- Despite a transition year for the Spurs with Ginobili missing almost half the season and the role players from the dynasty years all in the end of their careers, Duncan anchors the 5th ranked D and (along with Parker) leads the Spurs to 54 wins. Once again, Duncan averages 19/11 a game despite not playing major minutes to inflate his box score stats. In the playoffs, the team is trounced by the Mavs but the Spurs were clearly over matched for many reasons due to Manu and all the role players sucking collective ass (seriously.. go look at their stats). The Spurs were literally a two man show with only Parker and Duncan playing well.

09-10- Duncan averages 18/10 despite playing only 31 mpg. This is when poppovich decided to go with smaller lineups, often playing Blair and old ass McDyess alongside Duncan (and soft Matt Bonner). Due to this, and Duncan's decline in lateral quickness, the defense declines but still finishes number 8 (anchored by Timmy). He till was solid in the playoffs 19/10 on 52% shooting (terrible from the ft line tho).

In 10-11, the Spurs went with a new approach and Pop re-tinkered the offense. For this particular season, TD was a role player albeit a really productive role player. His numbers may look role-playerish in 11-12 but he averaged 15/9 in only 28 mpg which is damn impressive. Led the Spurs in Per in the reg season and playoffs (not the greatest stat but still says something) and turned his play up in the playoffs. This season, he was 1a/1b with Parker for the regular season. Anchored the top 5 man unit defensively in the league and one of the top defenses in the L overall. Unlike previous seasons, Spurs were better on defense this season than they were on offense. Parker has been the man in the playoffs but TD has been the second best player, dominating on defense and being the main cog the front court that shut down Gasol/Randolph.

The point of this long post is to show you that TD has produced at a level that only a handful of players have been similar or better than over the last 6 seasons: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, CP3, and Durant. Dude has still been one of the best players in the L. Lets not act like career spiraled off a cliff after 07.

In terms of the standards that he set by his performance earlier in his career, it did. But he definitely has not been a complete scrub. At the same time, he has not been the focal point that he once was either.

[DMAVS41]

Ummmm... I won't give you a business lesson. But.... winning 70% of your games is not a goal -- if we assume that the DESIRED OUTCOME is to win the championship. You could win 85% of your games and still choke in the playoffs every year and not win 1 title.

I work in internet marketing. While it's nice to get a million website visitors a month, WTF does it mean if you don't make one sale?

So nothing matters other than titles?

Who do you have as the best player of all time?

[DickeySimpkins]

In terms of the standards that he set by his performance earlier in his career, it did. But he definitely has not been a complete scrub. At the same time, he has not been the focal point that he once was either.
Duncan finished his tenth season in 06-07. When you factor in the three years he played in college and the multiple deep playoff runs, he had a lot of mileage on his knees and body at that point. Off course he was was going to take a step back from his previous production in his prime. Still, he has appeared in 5 of 6 all star games and has achieved a level of cumulative production in those 6 years that only a handful of other players have in that same timeframe (mentioned them in my other post).

And when you say he has not been a complete scrub you are implying he has been a mediocre player over the last 6 yrs. The worst he has been in those 6 yrs is a highly productive role player in the 10-11 season. Not a crime by any stretch.

He was the focal point from 07-08 to 09-10. In the last two seasons, he has been the number 2 guy to Tony Parker, who has been playing the best ball of his career.

Also note, Duncan has been the healthiest of the big 3 over the last 6 seasons.

[chopchop20]

So nothing matters other than titles?

Who do you have as the best player of all time?

Not saying that titles are everything, all the time. Otherwise, we would have to say that Robert Horry is better than Kobe and Duncan.

I think it is valid to emphasize titles in this discussion given that Duncan and Kobe have gone head-to-head their entire careers. I do think think defending your championship is important, so I do give considerable weight to a player that has a 3peat and Repeat on the resume as opposed to one who does not ( no matter who it is).

If anybody is going to say that a guy is better than a player that won more championships, I think there needs to be overwhelming, OBJECTIVE data to back it up.

And the fact is... there's not here. Especially when you taken into account that Kobe is 4-2 vs Duncan in the playoffs. And if you watch those games, Kobe was better on the court than Duncan.

Again....

Kobe > All Star Games
Kobe > All Defensive 1st Team Selections
Kobe> All-NBA 1st Team Selections (tied with Karl Malone for most all time)

So we're saying that Tim Duncan is better than Kobe Bryant because he won more MVP's and he's a nicer guy?

[chopchop20]

BTW... I think that Magic is the best ever. Though objectively, I cannot argue against MJ (I hate this guy)

[KG215]

If Kobe wasn't so polarizing with his attitude, rape case, fued with shaq he would be considered a top five player of all time.
No, if Kobe at his peak was as good/dominant as players like Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, and Shaq he'd be considered top 5 all-time. Those other things aren't the only or main things keeping him from being considered consensus top 5. He just wasn't ever as good as those other guys. He wasn't far off, mind you, but his peak years weren't quite on their level.

[chopchop20]

No, if Kobe at his peak was as good/dominant as players like Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, and Shaq he'd be considered top 5 all-time. Those other things aren't the only or main things keeping him from being considered consensus top 5. He just wasn't ever as good as those other guys. He wasn't far off, mind you, but his peak years weren't quite on their level.

Shaq? I mean at his best, he was the MDE. But c'mon, how long did he sustain it?

And I could easily make an OBJECTIVE argument that Kobe is better than Bird... but I won't.

[KG215]

Shaq? I mean at his best, he was the MDE. But c'mon, how long did he sustain it?

And I could easily make an OBJECTIVE argument that Kobe is better than Bird... but I won't.
Peaks don't usually last more than a few seasons (maybe 2-4) and are sandwiched by a few more prime years before and after. And he sustained that MDE level for 3 seasons, and has a number of other seasons where he wasn't far form it. He was a force from his rookie year (1992-1993) through at least 2004-2005 when he had a very strong MVP case; and even in 2006 when he was still a very good player on a championship team.

And you're underestimating Bird's peak if you don't think it was better than Kobe's. He was a 27-10-7-2 on great efficiency player in his prime; and he won two championships, made four straight Finals, and won three straight MVP's.

[Soundwave]

Pretty sure Duncan would win 3 titles with Shaq too.

Probably even more to be honest.

Shaq + Duncan would be the greatest front court in NBA history, by a fairly wide margin.

Shaq + Duncan > Shaq + Kobe

[chopchop20]

Peaks don't usually last more than a few seasons (maybe 2-4) and are sandwiched by a few more prime years before and after. And he sustained that MDE level for 3 seasons, and has a number of other seasons where he wasn't far form it. He was a force from his rookie year (1992-1993) through at least 2004-2005 when he had a very strong MVP case; and even in 2006 when he was still a very good player on a championship team.

And you're underestimating Bird's peak if you don't think it was better than Kobe's. He was a 27-10-7-2 on great efficiency player in his prime; and he won two championships, made four straight Finals, and won three straight MVP's.

I have no beef with Shaq. I love everything that he did for the Lakers. Similar to Duncan, he set the bar so high in his MDE; even when he had a good year it will still be judged (and diminished by) what he did before.

Kobe had the misfortune of not winning titles during his peak years. Although I think public perception played a big part into why Dirk and Nash won MVP's during that time. It's easy to forget all the insane stuff he did during that stretch.

For all the grief that Kobe gets for being a "2nd option", it's funny how people never harp on the fact that Bird played with 4 of the All Time Top 50 players.

And I'm not gonna start another debate here... but Kobe is statistically a better 3 point shooter in the playoffs than the Legendary Bird and he has a higher scoring average.

Bird's biggest weakness on his resume is his longevity. His last few years were brutal.

[chopchop20]

Pretty sure Duncan would win 3 titles with Shaq too.

Probably even more to be honest.

Shaq + Duncan would be the greatest front court in NBA history, by a fairly wide margin.

Shaq + Duncan > Shaq + Kobe

Wilt + Russell > Shaq + Duncan

Next hypothetical dream team is on you, my friend

[dajadeed]

This thread is hilarious.

No problem with anyone thinking Duncan is better than Kobe. They're both great.

:oldlol: @ the idiots with all the "everyone would choose Duncan" or "it's not even close."

And, fwiw, anyone who says "Shaq carried Kobe to 3 titles" clearly didn't watch basketball back in the early 2000s late 90s. I'm willing to bet people who say that are 24 and under.

[Vienceslav]

I'd be fine with people saying that they want Duncan to start a franchise with, but saying that Duncan was a better player in terms of basketball ability is pushing it too far.

[Soundwave]

Wilt + Russell > Shaq + Duncan

Next hypothetical dream team is on you, my friend

I think that'd be pretty close actually.

But since the arguement is that Duncan has never won multiple championships ... well he would have won several in a row with Shaq too.

Kobe's only done in once (repeating) without Shaq.

[Dbrog]

Despite all the things yall say about Duncan's greatness, why hasn't his team ever been dominant?

Kobe has went to 3 straight Finals on two separate occasions -- a 3-peat and a Repeat. People seem to forget how RARE a 3peat is.

Duncan has never repeated. In fact since the Lakers repeated in the 80's, only the '04 Pistons, Mavs, Heat, and Spurs have not repeated. That's almost 30 years.

After reading some things in this thread, I don't even know why I'm posting since clearly your view of reality is warped (ie: "Duncan has not been a complete scrub", and these ridiculous h2h comparisons when the players weren't even guarding each other). Perhaps the most insane is your strange obsession with repeats.

How does this have any weight at all? Spurs won 4 chips in 8 years (Including Duncan almost single handedly ending the Lakers Dynasty!). Not to mention being the most winning franchise in the NBA. This was all anchored by Duncan. How is that not impressive? You're really going to dock him because he didn't repeat? :roll:

Then again, that means you have Bill Russel as your #1 GOAT by a large margin...I'm ok with that. Nice to see someone without Jordan there :oldlol:

[Vienceslav]

Kobe's only done in once (repeating) without Shaq.
What a scrub, only repeating once, but actually twice, but that doesn't count apparently.:roll:

[chopchop20]

After reading some things in this thread, I don't even know why I'm posting since clearly your view of reality is warped (ie: "Duncan has not been a complete scrub", and these ridiculous h2h comparisons when the players weren't even guarding each other). Perhaps the most insane is your strange obsession with repeats.

How does this have any weight at all? Spurs won 4 chips in 8 years (Including Duncan almost single handedly ending the Lakers Dynasty!). Not to mention being the most winning franchise in the NBA. This was all anchored by Duncan. How is that not impressive? You're really going to dock him because he didn't repeat? :roll:

Then again, that means you have Bill Russel as your #1 GOAT by a large margin...I'm ok with that. Nice to see someone without Jordan there :oldlol:

Dunno how defending your title successfully is a strange obsession. If Miami loses to Indiana, how's that gonna work out for LeBron?

Most winning franchise? So that's what people remember nowadays. I'm sure that Stockton and Malone had a higher winning % than Hakeem. Perhaps while he is polishing his 2 rings, they can bask in the glory of all their non-championship victories.

[chopchop20]

What a scrub, only repeating once, but actually twice, but that doesn't count apparently.:roll:

Yeah I know!

I mean, 2 repeats on your NBA resume is so common right? Kobe just hit the EASY button and it magically happened

[chopchop20]

So here's the deal... I respect everyone's point of view who posted. If you think Duncan is better, so be it.

My problem as the title relates is with Bill Simmons and how he randomly asserts his opinions as facts without any substantial basis. The guy is always saying the most retarded stuff on NBA Countdown.

Just like his comment about Memphis and the MLK assassination. He always wants to be the smartest guy in the room.

He framed the whole Duncan vs Kobe thing as if it was without question. Like he was comparing MJ to Isaiah Rider... I dunno, that guy is always big on opinions but he never really backs them up

[iDunkOnFatKids]

He's not crazy for this, he is crazy for the recent Memphis and the MLK assassination comment. He been to the city for like 1 week, and decide he knows enough to make that statement. lol, insane.

[chopchop20]

He's not crazy for this, he is crazy for the recent Memphis and the MLK assassination comment. He been to the city for like 1 week, and decide he knows enough to make that statement. lol, insane.

Agreed. And the thing is, what is that opinion based on? I'm like WTF