How would you rank John Havlicek?

[BoutPractice]

Obviously the talk of the day will be MIA-IND game 6, but I just stumbled upon videos that reminded me of how truly unique a player John Havlicek was.

He's not talked about as much as other legends from his era, but his career is very interesting because of how it reflects on the usual arguments used to rank players.

Some things in particular that make him an anomaly:

- He's got 8 championship rings. That is a ridiculous number in and of itself. But he wasn't a Horry type of player in those championships, far from it.

In the first championships he was a star masquerading as a sixth man ala Ginobili. Then, he actually won two more championships without Russell, a fact that isn't stressed often enough. In the 1974 championship he averaged 27, 6.5 and 6 on 48% shooting and won Finals MVP, at age 33. His career playoff averages: 22, 7 and 5. In his best statistical regular season, he averaged 29, 9 and 7.5. Of course you can bring up the pace, but whatever the pace is you don't get LeBron stats if you're just a complementary player.

He was an elite star, an all-around player who could also function as the first scoring option, a first class defender, clutch as hell, almost never missed a game... and also won 8 championships.

- He's a living counter-argument to weak era claims. Havlicek started his career in 1962, while Bob Pettit (who'd played against George Mikan!) was still playing. But you also can see him score 29 in his last game in the NBA 1978... He averaged 18, 5 and 5 at 36 years old in Julius Erving's rookie year in the league. Moses Malone, David Thompson, Robert Parish, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Jack Sikma, Bernard King, and of course Kareem... those are some of the names of the people in the NBA at the time John Havlicek was still playing. His retirement was only six years removed from Jordan's arrival in the league.

In light of those facts, how would you rank him? And what do the arguments you would use in ranking him say about the way you rank other players?

[Lebron23]

I think he's a top 15-20 player of all time. Havlicek was also a very consistent player through his NBA Career.

[Akrazotile]

I wouldn't rank him, because I have little familiarity with him, and I won't pretend to know more about him than I actually do.

[Audio One]

Outside of Jordan, you won't find another complete perimeter player, that played both ends of the floor at an elite level like Hondo (maybe Bean, maybe). He has the rings, stats, accolades, and longevity, I don't see how he isn't a top-10 player all-time.

Some will bring up the fact that he didn't win an MVP, but go look back at his career. During damn near his entire career, if you weren't a big man, you weren't winning the award, plain and simple

[Pushxx]

Top 15-20. He's one of my favorite players and easily the most under-appreciated player ever.

Havlicek had endless effort and hustle. I'm talking running back on every basket. Him and Danny Ainge stick out to me for that.

[bizil]

Outside of Jordan, you won't find another complete perimeter player, that played both ends of the floor at an elite level like Hondo (maybe Bean, maybe). He has the rings, stats, accolades, and longevity, I don't see how he isn't a top-10 player all-time.

Some will bring up the fact that he didn't win an MVP, but go look back at his career. During damn near his entire career, if you weren't a big man, you weren't winning the award, plain and simple

Right on the money about Hondo. I think he was really the first guy who could play PG, SG, and SF at an elite level and a great defender. I know Big O easily has a case, but I don't think he was a great defender like Hondo. MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Lebron, and Grant Hill are the guys after Hondo who were that kind of all around versatile threat. At one point, Hondo was the GOAT SF, and still in the top 4.

[senelcoolidge]

Like so many other great players he's overlooked. A truly all time great.

[pudman13]

The most amazing thing about him was his absolute inability to get tired on the floor. There's a reason he had so many late game heroics: he outlasted everyone else and outhustled everyone else. I wish more of his games still existed on video, because he's an absolute clinic for how to play the game right on both ends of the floor.

Little known piece of trivia: his first NBA basket was a two-handed dunk.

[iamgine]

Obviously the talk of the day will be MIA-IND game 6, but I just stumbled upon videos that reminded me of how truly unique a player John Havlicek was.

He's not talked about as much as other legends from his era, but his career is very interesting because of how it reflects on the usual arguments used to rank players.

Some things in particular that make him an anomaly:

- He's got 8 championship rings. That is a ridiculous number in and of itself. But he wasn't a Horry type of player in those championships, far from it.

In the first championships he was a star masquerading as a sixth man ala Ginobili. Then, he actually won two more championships without Russell, a fact that isn't stressed often enough. In the 1974 championship he averaged 27, 6.5 and 6 on 48% shooting and won Finals MVP, at age 33. His career playoff averages: 22, 7 and 5. In his best statistical regular season, he averaged 29, 9 and 7.5. Of course you can bring up the pace, but whatever the pace is you don't get LeBron stats if you're just a complementary player.

He was an elite star, an all-around player who could also function as the first scoring option, a first class defender, clutch as hell, almost never missed a game... and also won 8 championships.

- He's a living counter-argument to weak era claims. Havlicek started his career in 1962, while Bob Pettit (who'd played against George Mikan!) was still playing. But you also can see him score 29 in his last game in the NBA 1978... He averaged 18, 5 and 5 at 36 years old in Julius Erving's rookie year in the league. Moses Malone, David Thompson, Robert Parish, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Jack Sikma, Bernard King, and of course Kareem... those are some of the names of the people in the NBA at the time John Havlicek was still playing. His retirement was only six years removed from Jordan's arrival in the league.

In light of those facts, how would you rank him? And what do the arguments you would use in ranking him say about the way you rank other players?
I see him exactly like Tony Parker. An elite player but not the best player in their own team. He was playing with Bill Russell and then later Dave Cowens, who were both better than Havlicek.

[NumberSix]

Is Havlicek the player with the most rings that also has a FMVP? I've never actually thought about it.

[fpliii]

I think he was better defensively than he was offensively.

[oarabbus]

Is Havlicek the player with the most rings that also has a FMVP? I've never actually thought about it.


According to Wiki, only his Celtic buddies have as many or more rings as him and none have an FMVP, so yes, he is the winningest player (in terms of rings) to have an FMVP

[pudman13]

That's kind of a trick question because FMVP wasn't even awarded until 1969. Surely Russell would have had some, and maybe Sam Jones would have too.

[NumberSix]

That's kind of a trick question because FMVP wasn't even awarded until 1969. Surely Russell would have had some, and maybe Sam Jones would have too.
Russell would have a minimum of 5 FMVPs. Maybe even as high as 8.

[oarabbus]

Russell would have a minimum of 5 FMVPs. Maybe even as high as 8.


Russell > Jordan confirmed?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Overrated player. Freak stamina but his stats are so inflated due to the minutes and pace he played at. Hes worse than prime Pierce.

[fpliii]

Russell would have a minimum of 5 FMVPs. Maybe even as high as 8.
Probably 7, 8 is unlikely IMO.

59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66.

57 - Heinsohn or Pettit (in losing effort)
64 - Sam Jones or Wilt (in losing effort)
68 - Havlicek
69 - West won (Havlicek wins if it goes to a Boston player)

[oarabbus]

Overrated player. Freak stamina but his stats are so inflated due to the minutes and pace he played at. Hes worse than prime Pierce.

Probably not.

[NumberSix]

Probably not.
Nah, I'm pretty sure prime Pierce takes a diarrhea dump in his ear.

[fpliii]

Nah, I'm pretty sure prime Pierce takes a diarrhea dump in his ear.
lol that YT channel used to be hilarious, haven't watched him in a while.

[Psileas]

According to Wiki, only his Celtic buddies have as many or more rings as him and none have an FMVP, so yes, he is the winningest player (in terms of rings) to have an FMVP

He's also, going by ring quantity, the winningest player who's never lost a Finals series: 8/8

[oarabbus]

He's also, going by ring quantity, the winningest player who's never lost a Finals series: 8/8

Greater than Jordan and Russell confirmed

Havlicek :bowdown:

[Sharmer]

Obviously the talk of the day will be MIA-IND game 6, but I just stumbled upon videos that reminded me of how truly unique a player John Havlicek was.

He's not talked about as much as other legends from his era, but his career is very interesting because of how it reflects on the usual arguments used to rank players.

Some things in particular that make him an anomaly:

- He's got 8 championship rings. That is a ridiculous number in and of itself. But he wasn't a Horry type of player in those championships, far from it.

In the first championships he was a star masquerading as a sixth man ala Ginobili. Then, he actually won two more championships without Russell, a fact that isn't stressed often enough. In the 1974 championship he averaged 27, 6.5 and 6 on 48% shooting and won Finals MVP, at age 33. His career playoff averages: 22, 7 and 5. In his best statistical regular season, he averaged 29, 9 and 7.5. Of course you can bring up the pace, but whatever the pace is you don't get LeBron stats if you're just a complementary player.

He was an elite star, an all-around player who could also function as the first scoring option, a first class defender, clutch as hell, almost never missed a game... and also won 8 championships.

- He's a living counter-argument to weak era claims. Havlicek started his career in 1962, while Bob Pettit (who'd played against George Mikan!) was still playing. But you also can see him score 29 in his last game in the NBA 1978... He averaged 18, 5 and 5 at 36 years old in Julius Erving's rookie year in the league. Moses Malone, David Thompson, Robert Parish, Alex English, Adrian Dantley, Jack Sikma, Bernard King, and of course Kareem... those are some of the names of the people in the NBA at the time John Havlicek was still playing. His retirement was only six years removed from Jordan's arrival in the league.

In light of those facts, how would you rank him? And what do the arguments you would use in ranking him say about the way you rank other players?


Who's old enough to have watched him?

[BoutPractice]

Wow, I'd completely forgotten I'd written this thread :lol

[houston]

great player indeed

[SHAQisGOAT]

Overrated player. Freak stamina but his stats are so inflated due to the minutes and pace he played at. Hes worse than prime Pierce.

This dude not banned yet?

[SHAQisGOAT]

I would rank him as top 20 all-time and a top 5 SF ever.

One of the greatest all-around players that ever set foot on a basketball court.
Really good and pretty versatile scorer, could rebound and pass at high level, a great defensive player, hustled all out, clutch, athletic and just tireless. 8 rings (1 as best player, other as 1a/1b situation), 1 FMVP, top5 in MVP voting twice, 4x all-nba 1st, 7x all-nba 2nd, 5x all-defensive 1st, 13x all-star, 16 years in the NBA, some detractors will say his style was a bit "old" (no palming/carrying, not much flash) but he was still really good at 38 in 1978 with that style of play, go watch him play, check what he did.. So you tell me.
Extremely underrated and overlooked these days.

[pudman13]

I see him exactly like Tony Parker. An elite player but not the best player in their own team. He was playing with Bill Russell and then later Dave Cowens, who were both better than Havlicek.

I don't think Cowens was better than Havlicek, and I doubt that many people who saw them play would think so either. I'm not knocking him: he played a more valuable position and revolutionized it in his way, but I think it's a wash during the time they played together, and of course longevity gives Havlicek the career nod. One thing to note, and this is understandable because of where he positioned himself on offense, but Cowens (like Russell) had a low FG% for a center.

[97 bulls]

I don't think Cowens was better than Havlicek, and I doubt that many people who saw them play would think so either. I'm not knocking him: he played a more valuable position and revolutionized it in his way, but I think it's a wash during the time they played together, and of course longevity gives Havlicek the career nod. One thing to note, and this is understandable because of where he positioned himself on offense, but Cowens (like Russell) had a low FG% for a center.
Cowens routinely finished higher than Havlicek in the MVP voting.

[ArbitraryWater]

I think he's a top 15-20 player of all time. Havlicek was also a very consistent player through his NBA Career.

So you got WILLIS fkn Reed in the Top 15 and now John Havlicek too? :oldlol:

Havlicek=Top 25-30... bit trigger happy, most missed shots (regular season) all time

[97 bulls]

I would rank him as top 20 all-time and a top 5 SF ever.

One of the greatest all-around players that ever set foot on a basketball court.
Really good and pretty versatile scorer, could rebound and pass at high level, a great defensive player, hustled all out, clutch, athletic and just tireless. 8 rings (1 as best player, other as 1a/1b situation), 1 FMVP, top5 in MVP voting twice, 4x all-nba 1st, 7x all-nba 2nd, 5x all-defensive 1st, 13x all-star, 16 years in the NBA, some detractors will say his style was a bit "old" (no palming/carrying, not much flash) but he was still really good at 38 in 1978 with that style of play, go watch him play, check what he did.. So you tell me.
Extremely underrated and overlooked these days.
What year was Havlicek the best player on his championship team?

[iamgine]

I don't think Cowens was better than Havlicek, and I doubt that many people who saw them play would think so either. I'm not knocking him: he played a more valuable position and revolutionized it in his way, but I think it's a wash during the time they played together, and of course longevity gives Havlicek the career nod. One thing to note, and this is understandable because of where he positioned himself on offense, but Cowens (like Russell) had a low FG% for a center.
It might be the other way round. People who rely on stats might think Havlicek was better but by eyewitnesses account Cowens was clearly superior.

[pudman13]

Cowens routinely finished higher than Havlicek in the MVP voting.

True, though it was an era when MVPs were always centers. From 1960 to 1980 only once was an MVP not a center, Oscar Robertson in 1964.

RE: most bricks. That's Kobe now, not Havlicek.

[pudman13]

It might be the other way round. People who rely on stats might think Havlicek was better but by eyewitnesses account Cowens was clearly superior.

I saw them both play (admittedly at the end of both careers), and I really think it's a wash, each of them equally valuable, but with Hondo being the one I would always have chosen to take the game's most important shot. What's interesting is that the main weaknesses of both were exactly the same: undersized for their position (which was a strength in certain ways too) and both were a bit trigger happy on offense.

[pudman13]

What year was Havlicek the best player on his championship team?

1974.

[iamgine]

I saw them both play (admittedly at the end of both careers), and I really think it's a wash, each of them equally valuable, but with Hondo being the one I would always have chosen to take the game's most important shot. What's interesting is that the main weaknesses of both were exactly the same: undersized for their position (which was a strength in certain ways too) and both were a bit trigger happy on offense.
Actually their situation was like Shaq and Kobe. There is no doubt who the better player was. But the other guy has the better career.

[pudman13]

Actually their situation was like Shaq and Kobe.

What's interesting is that by the time Shaq was at his peak the MVP voting was no longer dominated by centers or he would have won it practically every year.

[97 bulls]

1974.
How?

[SHAQisGOAT]

What year was Havlicek the best player on his championship team?

Imo in 1969 he was.
Best scorer on the team and #1 option, best passer on the team along with Russell, best perimeter defender on the team, made all-nba 2nd and all-defensive 2nd, played most minutes after Russell (more in the PS), easily FMVP (had it not gone to one of the losing team's players, like after that 1st year they awarded it). I don't think you could still call Bill the best player on that team anymore, as great as his impact still was as a player-coach.

1974 was a 1a/1b type of situation with Cowens (Jo Jo right after) and in 1976 Cowens was the best player.

[iamgine]

What's interesting is that by the time Shaq was at his peak the MVP voting was no longer dominated by centers or he would have won it practically every year.
As he should. But he missed many games.

[97 bulls]

Imo in 1969 he was.
Best scorer on the team and #1 option, best passer on the team along with Russell, best perimeter defender on the team, made all-nba 2nd and all-defensive 2nd, played most minutes after Russell (more in the PS), easily FMVP (had it not gone to one of the losing team's players, like after that 1st year they awarded it). I don't think you could still call Bill the best player on that team anymore, as great as his impact still was as a player-coach.

1974 was a 1a/1b type of situation with Cowens (Jo Jo right after) and in 1976 Cowens was the best player.
So even though Russell was the Celtics defensive anchor, leading rebounder, basically on the same level as far as assists, finished fourth in MVP voting (Hondo didn't even place), was all defense 1st team and was the coach, because Hondo was the teams leading scorer, you give the award for best player to Havlicek? Wow. And you call me biased.

The same applies for the Celtic runs after Russell. Cowens was the that teams best player. For no other reason than the fact that Hondo never finished ahead of him for the MVP award. Meaning the consensus was that Cowens was regarded as better or more valuable

[Deuce Bigalow]

John Havlicek or Lebron James?

[FaceSmack]

Overrated player. Freak stamina but his stats are so inflated due to the minutes and pace he played at. Hes worse than prime Pierce.

Havlicek > Pierce

C'mon now man

Havlicek is like top 20 all time. Pierce doesn't even sniff that ranking

[Lebron23]

John Havlicek or Lebron James?


Kobe

[kshutts1]

I rank played like Pettit and Hondo in my third tier. I didn't mean for the third tier to become this, but it's essentially the tier of.. "I know you're great, but you're either not great enough (players I know a lot about) or I don't know enough about you".

But the fact that players that ended their careers a decade before I was born (or more!) are in that tier is testament in itself to their greatness. I feel like if I ever took the time to do some research (videos, I mostly know the numbers) that those two players in particular would move up a tier.. or two.

Edit: Essentially I place them high enough to not embarrass myself, but I not so high because I can't make an argument for it.

[ArbitraryWater]

John Havlicek or Lebron James?

Wilt

[ArbitraryWater]

Probably 7, 8 is unlikely IMO.

59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66.

57 - Heinsohn or Pettit (in losing effort)
64 - Sam Jones or Wilt (in losing effort)
68 - Havlicek
69 - West won (Havlicek wins if it goes to a Boston player)

64 in a loosing effort? what do you mean?

[fpliii]

64 in a loosing effort? what do you mean?
It's unlikely, but just as West won in 69 and Kemp got some votes in 96 for Finals MVP, Pettit in 57 and Wilt in 64 could garner some consideration. I'd go with Heinsohn and Sam Jones personally, jus wanted to address all possibilities.

[SHAQisGOAT]

So even though Russell was the Celtics defensive anchor, leading rebounder, basically on the same level as far as assists, finished fourth in MVP voting (Hondo didn't even place), was all defense 1st team and was the coach, because Hondo was the teams leading scorer, you give the award for best player to Havlicek? Wow. And you call me biased.

The same applies for the Celtic runs after Russell. Cowens was the that teams best player. For no other reason than the fact that Hondo never finished ahead of him for the MVP award. Meaning the consensus was that Cowens was regarded as better or more valuable

MVP was voted by the players, he was held in really high regard by everyone, then being player-coach too and everybody knew he was close to retiring. You can also say Hondo was all-nba while Russ wasn't.
Russell was 34, in his last year, Havlicek was 28 at his best and as the captain. Bill was scoring around 10 ppg while Hondo was above 20 on the same type of efficiency as the #1 option, that's a big discrepancy and not like it happened with prime Russ in previous years where he was clearly their best player despite not the best/#1 scorer (and the difference was even bigger/more noticeable in the playoffs), so no, not because Hondo was the team's leading scorer but because it's not even remotely close when it comes to that, comparing to Bill. Yes Russell was still the defensive anchor and best defensive player but Hondo was 2nd and played a big role on that too, as their best perimeter defender. Although small margin, Hondo was still the main playmaker, and he was also a pretty good rebounder. And again look what he did during the Finals, clear FMVP (with the same "rules" as afterwards) and showed why he was their best player. Most people will tell you he was the best Celtics' player.

On that 1974 championship, it was an 1a/1b situation - also one of the reasons why Hondo was FMVP, although not close to the main reason as it's not like that, and different positions yes but Hondo was still all-nba 1st and Cowens wasn't even 2nd - and I'll even say Cowens was 1a, in 1976 Cowens was the best player.

Lmao, why the **** would I be biased towards John Havlicek? You're the one that clearly has an agenda with Scottie Pippen coming into play, and everyone knows it.

[97 bulls]

MVP was voted by the players, he was held in really high regard by everyone, then being player-coach too and everybody knew he was close to retiring. You can also say Hondo was all-nba while Russ wasn't.
Russell was 34, in his last year, Havlicek was 28 at his best and as the captain. Bill was scoring around 10 ppg while Hondo was above 20 on the same type of efficiency as the #1 option, that's a big discrepancy and not like it happened with prime Russ in previous years where he was clearly their best player despite not the best/#1 scorer (and the difference was even bigger/more noticeable in the playoffs), so no, not because Hondo was the team's leading scorer but because it's not even remotely close when it comes to that, comparing to Bill. Yes Russell was still the defensive anchor and best defensive player but Hondo was 2nd and played a big role on that too, as their best perimeter defender. Although small margin, Hondo was still the main playmaker, and he was also a pretty good rebounder. And again look what he did during the Finals, clear FMVP (with the same "rules" as afterwards) and showed why he was their best player. Most people will tell you he was the best Celtics' player.

On that 1974 championship, it was an 1a/1b situation - also one of the reasons why Hondo was FMVP, although not close to the main reason as it's not like that, and different positions yes but Hondo was still all-nba 1st and Cowens wasn't even 2nd - and I'll even say Cowens was 1a, in 1976 Cowens was the best player.

Lmao, why the **** would I be biased towards John Havlicek? You're the one that clearly has an agenda with Scottie Pippen coming into play, and everyone knows it.
I don't know why you would be biased. But considering the fact that you can go against the grain and say the.consensus was that Hondo was the Celtics best player for any of their championships is biased. Why didn't he finish ahead of Russell in the MVP voting? Why didnt the Celtics even make the playoffs the year after Russell retired?

Using Hondos All-NBA selection is not the end all be all either. Had Julius Erving, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry, and Spence Haywood spent their full pro careers in the NBA, Hondo probably ain't sniffing an allnba selection.

let's keep it real here.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I don't know why you would be biased. But considering the fact that you can go against the grain and say the.consensus was that Hondo was the Celtics best player for any of their championships is biased. Why didn't he finish ahead of Russell in the MVP voting? Why didnt the Celtics even make the playoffs the year after Russell retired?

Using Hondos All-NBA selection is not the end all be all either. Had Julius Erving, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry, and Spence Haywood spent their full pro careers in the NBA, Hondo probably ain't sniffing an allnba selection.

let's keep it real here.

If anyone is going against the grain is clearly you. Most people would tell you Hondo was the Celtics' best player in 1969, I'm willing to bet even Russell would. I've made my point above, it's pretty undeniable. You're the one acting biased and mad because Hondo is above Pippen all-time when considering everything. (I don't have animosity towards either, nor the contary)
One more the time, for the MVP part: MVP was voted by the players, Russell was held in really high regard by everyone, then being player-coach too and everybody knew he was close to retiring. You can also say Hondo was all-nba while Russ wasn't.
Why didn't they make the playoffs? Well, their 2nd best player, coach and long-time leader/symbol retired, their 2nd best all-around scorer retired too (yea Sam Jones retired as well, don't forget), they had a new, rookie coach, they were on a transition phase (Howell, Siegfried and Satch were on their "last legs"). For example, during the early 90's, suddendly take Pippen and Grant away from the Bulls (even Phil J), what do you think would happen? And Hondo is not even as good as someone like Jordan plus in 1970 only 4 teams made the playoffs in each conference (Bucks had just drafted Alcindor and Dandridge too)

Who said it is the "end all be all" either? Funny because you're the one acting like that with the MVP voting (by peers).

Yea let's keep it real, whatever that means :rolleyes:

[97 bulls]

If anyone is going against the grain is clearly you. Most people would tell you Hondo was the Celtics' best player in 1969, I'm willing to bet even Russell would. I've made my point above, it's pretty undeniable. You're the one acting biased and mad because Hondo is above Pippen all-time when considering everything. (I don't have animosity towards either, nor the contary)
One more the time, for the MVP part: MVP was voted by the players, Russell was held in really high regard by everyone, then being player-coach too and everybody knew he was close to retiring. You can also say Hondo was all-nba while Russ wasn't.
Why didn't they make the playoffs? Well, their 2nd best player, coach and long-time leader/symbol retired, their 2nd best all-around scorer retired too (yea Sam Jones retired as well, don't forget), they had a new, rookie coach, they were on a transition phase (Howell, Siegfried and Satch were on their "last legs"). For example, during the early 90's, suddendly take Pippen and Grant away from the Bulls (even Phil J), what do you think would happen? And Hondo is not even as good as someone like Jordan plus in 1970 only 4 teams made the playoffs in each conference (Bucks had just drafted Alcindor and Dandridge too)

Who said it is the "end all be all" either? Funny because you're the one acting like that with the MVP voting (by peers).

Yea let's keep it real, whatever that means :rolleyes:

All I can do is go with what both players peers stated. And they clearly voted Russell ahead of Havlicek. I mean, think about it, HONDO DIDNT EVEN GET A VOTE. RUSSELL WAS NOT ONLY THE CELTS BEST PLAYER, HE WAS THEIR FRIGGN COACH. You put that much stock in being the number one option?

You obviously can't keep it real because you're unrealistic. No one aside from you believed Hondo was better than Russell in 69, or Cowens when they played together. Care to explain why Havlicek never finished ahead on Cowens in the MVP voting?


And what's with your fascination for Scottie Pippen. I never even mentioned him. Nor was this thread made to compare the two. You're the only one bringing him up here. And for the record, Hondo SHOULD be ranked higher than Pippen. Hes accomplished more than Pippen did.

[Bush4Ever]

Without thinking about it too hard, he would be in the general class of guys who hover around the late-teens spots.

I believe he had lungs that were so large they required two x-ray machines to examine, or something like that. He had legendary cardio.

It is also true that he nearly played with every Celtics great from Cousy to Bird (he missed Bird by a year).

Pretty great.

[pudman13]

Care to explain why Havlicek never finished ahead on Cowens in the MVP voting?


I already explained this. There was a pro-center bias in MVP voting for many many years.

RE: 1969...it's debatable if Havlicek was the best player on the team that year, and it wasn't one of his better years in terms of FG%, but Russell definitely was on the decline that year. Is 60% of Russell better than 100% of Havlicek? Maybe. What has to be noted is that Havlicek and Russell took a team of cast-offs and over-the-hill players won a championship and Havlicek was the only key player on the team who was in his prime at the time (unless you count Don Nelson...)

[Pushxx]

Why the hell is anyone responding to 97 bulls? He's the biggest Celtic hater.

The same guy who said Gerald Green would beat Larry Bird in a game of 1-on-1 in their primes. I shit you not. He also fervently argued over several pages that he'd take Pippen over Bird for any team.

Save your effort, SHAQisGOAT. He doesn't appreciate basketball.

[97 bulls]

I already explained this. There was a pro-center bias in MVP voting for many many years.

RE: 1969...it's debatable if Havlicek was the best player on the team that year, and it wasn't one of his better years in terms of FG%, but Russell definitely was on the decline that year. Is 60% of Russell better than 100% of Havlicek? Maybe. What has to be noted is that Havlicek and Russell took a team of cast-offs and over-the-hill players won a championship and Havlicek was the only key player on the team who was in his prime at the time (unless you count Don Nelson...)
Im not disputing the greatness of Havlicek. Im defending the role of Bill Russell and Dave Cowens.

Its true that the center position dominated the MVP award during that time. But consider who won. Either Russell or Chamberlain. Youd be hard pressed to form an argument as to why either of the two didnt deserve the award in any year they won it.

[pudman13]

Its true that the center position dominated the MVP award during that time. But consider who won. Either Russell or Chamberlain. Youd be hard pressed to form an argument as to why either of the two didnt deserve the award in any year they won it.

Yep, not gonna argue that one, nor the ones Kareem, Mcadoo, Walton, et al won. It's odd how things changed after that. Shaq is one player who should have won many more MVPs than he did.

[97 bulls]

Why the hell is anyone responding to 97 bulls? He's the biggest Celtic hater.

The same guy who said Gerald Green would beat Larry Bird in a game of 1-on-1 in their primes. I shit you not. He also fervently argued over several pages that he'd take Pippen over Bird for any team.

Save your effort, SHAQisGOAT. He doesn't appreciate basketball.
Lol. You are totally distoring the truth. I remember you calling me a racists because of stance on Bird.

And you my friend dont know the difference between one on one and team basketball. Birds one on one skills both offensively and defensively were sub par at best. Perhaps if Bird gave him so much space that he had no choice to shoot a jumper but even then, the avg NBA guard can probably make 80-90% of their uncontested wide open jumpers from 10-12 ft. As opposed to Bird having to back him down and then fade away. And remember, Bird would have to start at half court. If Green holds his ground, either Bird is gonna have to put the ball on the ground and try to drive, or commit a charge. His dribbling vs pressure has never been impressive. I just don't see how Bird would have the advantage. At some point, Bird is gonna have to put the ball on the ground and try to score driving to the hole. Again, I just don't see it happening.

[97 bulls]

Yep, not gonna argue that one, nor the ones Kareem, Mcadoo, Walton, et al won. It's odd how things changed after that. Shaq is one player who should have won many more MVPs than he did.
It was Magic and Birds generation that started the change, then Jordan elevated it to another level. The league began catering to perimeter players with the rule changes, and before you know it, bigs dominating the post became almost non existent.

[Pushxx]

Lol. You are totally distoring the truth. I remember you calling me a racists because of stance on Bird.


I never called you racist. Ever. Ignored.

[cltcfn2924]

I see him exactly like Tony Parker. An elite player but not the best player in their own team. He was playing with Bill Russell and then later Dave Cowens, who were both better than Havlicek.

No way Cowens was better. That was Hondos' team, they don't win without him period.

[cltcfn2924]

Overrated player. Freak stamina but his stats are so inflated due to the minutes and pace he played at. Hes worse than prime Pierce.

Absolutely the most ridiculous post I have ever seen.

[cltcfn2924]

Cowens routinely finished higher than Havlicek in the MVP voting.
Only big men won it back then.

[cltcfn2924]

What year was Havlicek the best player on his championship team?


1974, 1976. Anything else?

[NumberSix]

Only FMVP with 8 rings.

[cltcfn2924]

I don't know why you would be biased. But considering the fact that you can go against the grain and say the.consensus was that Hondo was the Celtics best player for any of their championships is biased. Why didn't he finish ahead of Russell in the MVP voting? Why didnt the Celtics even make the playoffs the year after Russell retired?

Using Hondos All-NBA selection is not the end all be all either. Had Julius Erving, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry, and Spence Haywood spent their full pro careers in the NBA, Hondo probably ain't sniffing an allnba selection.

let's keep it real here.

Jones and Howell ring a bell? I think you need to keep it real. Look up the 1970 roster. As far as if other players were there? What? Smh.

[cltcfn2924]

Lol. You are totally distoring the truth. I remember you calling me a racists because of stance on Bird.

And you my friend dont know the difference between one on one and team basketball. Birds one on one skills both offensively and defensively were sub par at best. Perhaps if Bird gave him so much space that he had no choice to shoot a jumper but even then, the avg NBA guard can probably make 80-90% of their uncontested wide open jumpers from 10-12 ft. As opposed to Bird having to back him down and then fade away. And remember, Bird would have to start at half court. If Green holds his ground, either Bird is gonna have to put the ball on the ground and try to drive, or commit a charge. His dribbling vs pressure has never been impressive. I just don't see how Bird would have the advantage. At some point, Bird is gonna have to put the ball on the ground and try to score driving to the hole. Again, I just don't see it happening.

You are officially insane.

[97 bulls]

Only big men won it back then.
Lol. Big men won it because they deserved to. Not because it was an award that was made exclusively for bigs.

[PsychoBe]

a tier below samaki walker

[La Frescobaldi]

1974, 1976. Anything else?

1968, 1969, 1974, 1976.

Russell was there all right, and he was greatness itself; Havlicek was the best player on his team, and often the best player in the gym. He wanted it more than anybody else.

[Dbrog]

To me, Hondo is actually one of the hardest players ever to rate. He has the Accolades via Russell and was outshined by Barry in the 70s. I'm also inclined to put Baylor and Frazier in front of him as well. Baylor was basically mini-bron and Frazier quarterbacked good teams to beat the Cs, Bucks, and Lakers...that's pretty baller and something Hondo never did as the main dude IMO except for in 74 (his best season). I would put Havlicek somewhere around 25 alltime. The guys in front of him just impress me more with the things they did. Hondo was beast though. Like I said, it's a tough one.

[97 bulls]

1968, 1969, 1974, 1976.

Russell was there all right, and he was greatness itself; Havlicek was the best player on his team, and often the best player in the gym. He wanted it more than anybody else.
This is just totally overrating Havlicek and disrespectful to Bill Russell.

[97 bulls]

To me, Hondo is actually one of the hardest players ever to rate. He has the Accolades via Russell and was outshined by Barry in the 70s. I'm also inclined to put Baylor and Frazier in front of him as well. Baylor was basically mini-bron and Frazier quarterbacked good teams to beat the Cs, Bucks, and Lakers...that's pretty baller and something Hondo never did as the main dude IMO except for in 74 (his best season). I would put Havlicek somewhere around 25 alltime. The guys in front of him just impress me more with the things they did. Hondo was beast though. Like I said, it's a tough one.
And then factor that the ABA took a decent amount of great swingmen which made it easier for player like Hondo to win more All-NBA selections that he would've otherwise.

[pudman13]

I'm also inclined to put Baylor and Frazier in front of him as well.

I think I would too, though Hondo has longevity on both of them, especially Baylor.

I think Frazier may be the most underrated basketball player of them all...talk about a guy who did it all on both ends of the court. His numbers are very good, but not stratospheric, but when a great team player plays on a great team, that's often what you see. I have no doubt in my mind that he was the best player on those championship Knicks teams.

[La Frescobaldi]

This is just totally overrating Havlicek and disrespectful to Bill Russell.
Unless you watched a lot of those games from the bleachers instead of looking at stats and reading about them 50 years later.

[La Frescobaldi]

I think I would too, though Hondo has longevity on both of them, especially Baylor.

I think Frazier may be the most underrated basketball player of them all...talk about a guy who did it all on both ends of the court. His numbers are very good, but not stratospheric, but when a great team player plays on a great team, that's often what you see. I have no doubt in my mind that he was the best player on those championship Knicks teams.

Clyde is my all-time favorite player so I'm totally biased on that. But Willis Reed in '69-'70 was playing some of the greatest basketball I've ever seen. If the Cap'n didn't have so many injuries year after year, he'd rate even higher than he does.

Clyde's Game 7 in '70 - the Willis Reed game - is still the best single game performance I've ever seen. He was just beyond. I watched it on ABC which in those days was a great station and man that first quarter the Knicks just came out with guns blazing. I can't remember more than images and glimpses of some of the great games or the amazing plays, especially from that long ago but it is on Youtube and it still is just greatness.

Frazier was Ice in the Fire & Ice rivalry between him and Earl the Pearl, but for that game, he was smoldering flames

[97 bulls]

Unless you watched a lot of those games from the bleachers instead of looking at stats and reading about them 50 years later.
I've read enough of that era and spoke with people older than me to understand John Havlicek was never the best player on the Celtics. And the facts bare it out.

[La Frescobaldi]

I've read enough of that era and spoke with people older than me to understand John Havlicek was never the best player on the Celtics. And the facts bare it out.

that's fine bro, believe what you like!! I have dozens of hoops friends going back 40 + years and they all know what they know. There's a reason Boston voted Hondo the Greatest Celtic a couple years after he retired.

Cowens was great, especially in '76, but from first to last that was Havlicek's team after Big Bill retired.

Russell was great to his last game but he noticeably declined his last couple of years; whether that was due to age, injuries, his coaching responsibilities or more likely all of those, he was not the best player on the court when Havlicek was out there.

Being the consistent high scorer of the team is one thing; but Hondo's fade in transition defense is pretty much unsurpassed. He stopped a lot of fast breaks just by being at midcourt. The whole league feared that man in the open court - both ways.

[97 bulls]

that's fine bro, believe what you like!! I have dozens of hoops friends going back 40 + years and they all know what they know. There's a reason Boston voted Hondo the Greatest Celtic a couple years after he retired.

Cowens was great, especially in '76, but from first to last that was Havlicek's team after Big Bill retired.

Russell was great to his last game but he noticeably declined his last couple of years; whether that was due to age, injuries, his coaching responsibilities or more likely all of those, he was not the best player on the court when Havlicek was out there.

Being the consistent high scorer of the team is one thing; but Hondo's fade in transition defense is pretty much unsurpassed. He stopped a lot of fast breaks just by being at midcourt. The whole league feared that man in the open court - both ways.
Come on bro. It's no secret that Boston (especially at that time) was one of the most racists cities in America. And I have plenty of ammo if you disagree. I like the way Pudman put it. "Was 100% of Havlicek better than 60% of Russell." And lets not forget he was also the teams coach.

The rest of the country voted Bills Russell as the greatest player ever in the early 80s. Hondo was perhaps the biggest name and most liked by Boston because he transcended two eras. But the league never saw him as the best player on that team. Please explain why he never finished ahead of Cowens for the MVP award.

[iamgine]

To say the MVP was biased towards big men is incorrect. Guards like Jerry west, Lenny Wilkens and Tiny Archibald constantly finishes 2nd or 3rd in voting.

[La Frescobaldi]

Come on bro. It's no secret that Boston (especially at that time) was one of the most racists cities in America. And I have plenty of ammo if you disagree. I like the way Pudman put it. "Was 100% of Havlicek better than 60% of Russell." And lets not forget he was also the teams coach.

The rest of the country voted Bills Russell as the greatest player ever in the early 80s. Hondo was perhaps the biggest name and most liked by Boston because he transcended two eras. But the league never saw him as the best player on that team. Please explain why he never finished ahead of Cowens for the MVP award.

1982-83 Moses Malone Philadelphia 76ers
1981-82 Moses Malone Houston Rockets
1980-81 Julius Erving Philadelphia 76ers
1979-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1978-79 Moses Malone Houston Rockets
1977-78 Bill Walton Portland Trail Blazers
1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1975-76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1974-75 Bob McAdoo Buffalo Braves
1973-74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1972-73 Dave Cowens Boston Celtics
1971-72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1970-71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1969-70 Willis Reed New York Knicks
1968-69 Wes Unseld Baltimore Bullets
1967-68 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1965-66 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1964-65 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1963-64 Oscar Robertson Cincinnati Royals
1962-63 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1961-62 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1960-61 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1959-60 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Warriors
1958-59 Bob Pettit St. Louis Hawks
1957-58 Bill Russell Boston Celtics

Over a 20 year span, Oscar Robertson was the ONLY guy to get the MVP that was not a center. You can go all the way out to 25 years, and add only Bob Pettit, and Dr. J.
Did Erving deserve that MVP in '81? Maybe. Lots of guys thought Moses was a good choice that year too; in some ways it was a better season for him than his MVP season the year before. Mo is largely forgotten today but he had an incredible run through there. But the point is... that's just how it was, the game revolved around centers in a way that's totally forgotten today. DJ on the Sonics was pure magic, and Rick Barry was something else too.... no MVPs even though it's totally valid to say they deserved them in their championship seasons. Hondo no less.

Russell was voted the "best player" because of his entire career, and his excellence throughout, not because of those last 2 seasons. I never saw his glory years but when I did he was clearly faded. He was like 2014 Duncan - still great, still able to produce the most amazing plays but clearly not what he was. Chamberlain in Philly just destroyed him on the regular & I do mean destroyed him.

I'm not touching racism. I marched in Washington, Baltimore, Philly, went right to the wall for some of my friends and I really don't care to go into a subject that I lived through.
I'll just say that Russell was voted the greatest by a group of sports writers, and since you probably never heard of the writers of that earlier era, lemme suggest that Skip Bayless, Bill Simmons, Chris Broussard, Wojnarowski.... do not have a sharper perception of basketball than Kblaze or InspiredLebowski.... or you, for that matter (shameless homer that you are :lol)
K Love just went to the floor real hard bro gotta go

[longhornfan1234]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. LeBron
10. Duncan
11. Hakeem
12. Moses
13. West
14. Oscar
15. Dr. J
16. Baylor
17. Charles
18. David Robinson
19. Isiah Thomas
20. KG
21. Hondo

[Lebron23]

It's very difficult to rank John Havlicek because he was a solid 2nd to 3rd scoring option at the start of his career. Hondo also had some seasons where he was the best player of his team, and he played with Alpha males like Bill Russell and Dave Cowens.

The Top 10-12 players of all time needs to be an MVP and Finals MVP winner. I think he's 's a top 20 or 21 player of all time.

[97 bulls]

1982-83 Moses Malone Philadelphia 76ers
1981-82 Moses Malone Houston Rockets
1980-81 Julius Erving Philadelphia 76ers
1979-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1978-79 Moses Malone Houston Rockets
1977-78 Bill Walton Portland Trail Blazers
1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1975-76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Los Angeles Lakers
1974-75 Bob McAdoo Buffalo Braves
1973-74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1972-73 Dave Cowens Boston Celtics
1971-72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1970-71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee Bucks
1969-70 Willis Reed New York Knicks
1968-69 Wes Unseld Baltimore Bullets
1967-68 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1965-66 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 76ers
1964-65 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1963-64 Oscar Robertson Cincinnati Royals
1962-63 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1961-62 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1960-61 Bill Russell Boston Celtics
1959-60 Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Warriors
1958-59 Bob Pettit St. Louis Hawks
1957-58 Bill Russell Boston Celtics

Over a 20 year span, Oscar Robertson was the ONLY guy to get the MVP that was not a center. You can go all the way out to 25 years, and add only Bob Pettit, and Dr. J.
Did Erving deserve that MVP in '81? Maybe. Lots of guys thought Moses was a good choice that year too; in some ways it was a better season for him than his MVP season the year before. Mo is largely forgotten today but he had an incredible run through there. But the point is... that's just how it was, the game revolved around centers in a way that's totally forgotten today. DJ on the Sonics was pure magic, and Rick Barry was something else too.... no MVPs even though it's totally valid to say they deserved them in their championship seasons. Hondo no less.

Russell was voted the "best player" because of his entire career, and his excellence throughout, not because of those last 2 seasons. I never saw his glory years but when I did he was clearly faded. He was like 2014 Duncan - still great, still able to produce the most amazing plays but clearly not what he was. Chamberlain in Philly just destroyed him on the regular & I do mean destroyed him.

I'm not touching racism. I marched in Washington, Baltimore, Philly, went right to the wall for some of my friends and I really don't care to go into a subject that I lived through.
I'll just say that Russell was voted the greatest by a group of sports writers, and since you probably never heard of the writers of that earlier era, lemme suggest that Skip Bayless, Bill Simmons, Chris Broussard, Wojnarowski.... do not have a sharper perception of basketball than Kblaze or InspiredLebowski.... or you, for that matter (shameless homer that you are :lol)
K Love just went to the floor real hard bro gotta go
This is a list of the top MVP vote getters MINUS the centers AND power forwards throughout Havliceks career.

62-63
Baylor, Robertson, West, Dischener, Cousey

63-64
Robertson won it, West, Baylor, Greer, Jones
(Havlicek didn't even get a vote)

64-65
Robertson, West, Jones

65-66
Robertson and Barry

66-67
Robertson and Barry

67-68
Wilkens, Baylor, Bing, Robertson

68-69
Cunningham and Baylor

69-70
West, Frasier, Hawkins, Cunningham

70-71
West, Bing, Robertson

71-72
West

72-73
Archibald

73-74
Frasier, Barry

74-75
Barry and Archibald

75-76
Hondo placed 24th with 15 non centers finishing ahead of him.

76-77
Didnt get a vote

So even if you eliminate the Centers and Power Forwards, Hondo still wouldnt have.finished first in the MVP voting.

Im not implying that you are a racists. But no matter how much you try to.deny it, Boston was a hotbed of racism back in the 60s and 70s. Only two types of people would be able to actually call Havlicek the greatets Celtic after he retired, Fools and Racists.

I have more than made my case.

[cltcfn2924]

To me, Hondo is actually one of the hardest players ever to rate. He has the Accolades via Russell and was outshined by Barry in the 70s. I'm also inclined to put Baylor and Frazier in front of him as well. Baylor was basically mini-bron and Frazier quarterbacked good teams to beat the Cs, Bucks, and Lakers...that's pretty baller and something Hondo never did as the main dude IMO except for in 74 (his best season). I would put Havlicek somewhere around 25 alltime. The guys in front of him just impress me more with the things they did. Hondo was beast though. Like I said, it's a tough one.


Barry didn't have the all round game Hondo had. I was there, outshined is just not true. Baylor: no rings. Frazier was a different animal. Best guard of his time. Just remember Frazier 2 rings, Hondo 2 of his 8 in the same time frame. Also Boston beat the Bucks in '76. Heh 1 questionable out of 3 aint bad.

[cltcfn2924]

This is just totally overrating Havlicek and disrespectful to Bill Russell.
You need to stop. Russell himself called Hondo the best all round player he ever saw. You're at troll level now.

[cltcfn2924]

And then factor that the ABA took a decent amount of great swingmen which made it easier for player like Hondo to win more All-NBA selections that he would've otherwise.
You also need to stop with who wasn't there. They don't matter, have nothing to do with this discussion.

[Audio One]

Shaqattack3234 (Matt Havlicek) is a relative of John Havlicek. You can ask him where he ranks him as a player.

How do you know this?

[cltcfn2924]

I think I would too, though Hondo has longevity on both of them, especially Baylor.

I think Frazier may be the most underrated basketball player of them all...talk about a guy who did it all on both ends of the court. His numbers are very good, but not stratospheric, but when a great team player plays on a great team, that's often what you see. I have no doubt in my mind that he was the best player on those championship Knicks teams.


Loved Frazier myself, but the stats are not there to put him ahead of Hondo. Not even close. Both had 2 rings in the same era.

[cltcfn2924]

This is a list of the top MVP vote getters MINUS the centers AND power forwards throughout Havliceks career.

62-63
Baylor, Robertson, West, Dischener, Cousey

63-64
Robertson won it, West, Baylor, Greer, Jones
(Havlicek didn't even get a vote)

64-65
Robertson, West, Jones

65-66
Robertson and Barry

66-67
Robertson and Barry

67-68
Wilkens, Baylor, Bing, Robertson

68-69
Cunningham and Baylor

69-70
West, Frasier, Hawkins, Cunningham

70-71
West, Bing, Robertson

71-72
West

72-73
Archibald

73-74
Frasier, Barry

74-75
Barry and Archibald

75-76
Hondo placed 24th with 15 non centers finishing ahead of him.

76-77
Didnt get a vote

So even if you eliminate the Centers and Power Forwards, Hondo still wouldnt have.finished first in the MVP voting.

Im not implying that you are a racists. But no matter how much you try to.deny it, Boston was a hotbed of racism back in the 60s and 70s. Only two types of people would be able to actually call Havlicek the greatets Celtic after he retired, Fools and Racists.

I have more than made my case.

This whole thread is about the guy being over looked. You make jacks*&t for a case.

[ImKobe]

Can't rank a player I didn't watch play. Obviously one of the top 50 greatest players ever. I've seen many of his highlights, but I can't rank a player based on their highlights, otherwise Kobe would be #1.

[La Frescobaldi]

This is a list of the top MVP vote getters MINUS the centers AND power forwards throughout Havliceks career.

62-63
Baylor, Robertson, West, Dischener, Cousey

63-64
Robertson won it, West, Baylor, Greer, Jones
(Havlicek didn't even get a vote)

64-65
Robertson, West, Jones

65-66
Robertson and Barry

66-67
Robertson and Barry

67-68
Wilkens, Baylor, Bing, Robertson

68-69
Cunningham and Baylor

69-70
West, Frasier, Hawkins, Cunningham

70-71
West, Bing, Robertson

71-72
West

72-73
Archibald

73-74
Frasier, Barry

74-75
Barry and Archibald

75-76
Hondo placed 24th with 15 non centers finishing ahead of him.

76-77
Didnt get a vote

So even if you eliminate the Centers and Power Forwards, Hondo still wouldnt have.finished first in the MVP voting.

Im not implying that you are a racists. But no matter how much you try to.deny it, Boston was a hotbed of racism back in the 60s and 70s. Only two types of people would be able to actually call Havlicek the greatets Celtic after he retired, Fools and Racists.

I have more than made my case.

I'm glad it's resting, because this doesn't mean much. I never said nor suggested Havlicek was the best in the league - he was the leader and best player of his own team.
But your slinging around those kinds of epithets is way beyond the pale. That just put you right in the dregs. I'm done with you.

[97 bulls]

I'm glad it's resting, because this doesn't mean much. I never said nor suggested Havlicek was the best in the league - he was the leader and best player of his own team.
But your slinging around those kinds of epithets is way beyond the pale. That just put you right in the dregs. I'm done with you.
We're going around in circles. Let's recap. You make the claim that Havlicek was the best player on the Celtics from 69 on. Even though he never finished ahead of players on his team that won the MVP. Which is the highest award a player can receive for a single season as personal achievements go. Your response to that is that the award was only given to Centers. So I show you that even if you eliminate the Centers and Power Forwards, Hondo isnt winning MVPs like his teammates did. Or finish higher than them at any time during their tenure together.

The Centers that won, won because they deserved to. They were considered the best players in the league because they were the best players league.

Its funny how you feel me posting facts is derogatory. Displaying facts are considered "slinging" now huh? Im not insulting Hondo. He was a great player. But he was never better than Bill Russell or Dave Cowens. Their peers attested that by how they voted.

[97 bulls]

This whole thread is about the guy being over looked. You make jacks*&t for a case.
Boutpractice (the OP) asked how he should be ranked. Im not arguing where he should be ranked. Im saying he was never regarded as being better than Russell or Cowens. Its obvious some of the people that posted would rather think with their hearts as opposed to looking at the facts.

[cltcfn2924]

I've read enough of that era and spoke with people older than me to understand John Havlicek was never the best player on the Celtics. And the facts bare it out.

You don't know jack. You didn't see jack. Opinions are like ah*l$s, but forming an opinion on something you never saw, and attempting to troll it down our throats is sheer stupidity.

[cltcfn2924]

We're going around in circles. Let's recap. You make the claim that Havlicek was the best player on the Celtics from 69 on. Even though he never finished ahead of players on his team that won the MVP. Which is the highest award a player can receive for a single season as personal achievements go. Your response to that is that the award was only given to Centers. So I show you that even if you eliminate the Centers and Power Forwards, Hondo isnt winning MVPs like his teammates did. Or finish higher than them at any time during their tenure together.

The Centers that won, won because they deserved to. They were considered the best players in the league because they were the best players league.

Its funny how you feel me posting facts is derogatory. Displaying facts are considered "slinging" now huh? Im not insulting Hondo. He was a great player. But he was never better than Bill Russell or Dave Cowens. Their peers attested that by how they voted.

I'll say it again, you never saw Russell, Havlicek or '71 to '76 Cowens. Your opinion is absolutely worthless, your knowledge of them non existant.
You have hit official troll status.

[97 bulls]

You don't know jack. You didn't see jack. Opinions are like ah*l$s, but forming an opinion on something you never saw, and attempting to troll it down our throats is sheer stupidity.
Are these opinions? Or facts? Do you even know the difference? If his peers/contemporaries never voted him higher than his teammates (which is a fact) why should I believe otherwise? Was there some mind of vendetta against Hondo? Can you come up with a better excuse than the MVP was an award given to centers?

Answer this question. Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond played for the same Warrior team in 73-74. Why did Barry finish ahead of Thurmond in the MVP voting? Was Barry playing center?

[97 bulls]

I'll say it again, you never saw Russell, Havlicek or '71 to '76 Cowens. Your opinion is absolutely worthless, your knowledge of them non existant.
You have hit official troll status.
Then why did people that not only saw them play, but play with and against them on the same friggn court say that Russell and Cowens were better than Havlicek by voting them over him for the MVP award?

[cltcfn2924]

To all, Hondo is the #12 all time NBA scorer, #10 playoff scorer. To say he is, at this point, with his all round game, lower than 10-15 is just foolish. Again "at this time", not counting who will do what in the next 5 years or who didn't play in the times of the ABA. Numbers over an extended period do tell a story.

[97 bulls]

To all, Hondo is the #12 all time NBA scorer, #10 playoff scorer. To say he is, at this point, with his all round game, lower than 10-15 is just foolish. Again "at this time", not counting who will do what in the next 5 years or who didn't play in the times of the ABA. Numbers over an extended period do tell a story.
Hondo is a great great player. Dont forget he played an integral role on 8 championship teams. And was an amazing defender.

I would definitely put him in the upper echelon of second tier alltime greats.

I think Ive grown to appreciate him because my favorite player (Scottie Pippen) is comparable to him. Their styles and accomplishments are very similar.

[pudman13]

Answer this question. Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond played for the same Warrior team in 73-74. Why did Barry finish ahead of Thurmond in the MVP voting? Was Barry playing center?

This is because Thurmond was washed up by this point. Also, even at his best he was no Russell or Cowens.

[cltcfn2924]

Hondo is a great great player. Dont forget he played an integral role on 8 championship teams. And was an amazing defender.

I would definitely put him in the upper echelon of second tier alltime greats.

I think Ive grown to appreciate him because my favorite player (Scottie Pippen) is comparable to him. Their styles and accomplishments are very similar.
Aye, Pippen was probably the most clutch defensive player I've seen. When you had, just had to have a stop he always seemed to be there. Having said that, Hondo was the guy Boston looked for to win the game. Not Cowens, not White. The man was able to carry a team to 2 more banners after his "Boss" left.

Peace.

[SouBeachTalents]

Thought I'd bump this for one of the legends of the game

Good thread topic at hand, I'd probably rank him top 25

[72-10]

24th greatest player of all-time. I guess I could be wrong, though.

[bizil]

You could make the case Hondo is a top 5 SF GOAT wise. The Mt Rushmore at the 3 is Bron, Bird, KD, and Doc. After that, u got Hondo in that mix with Baylor, Barry, and Pippen. And among all players, he's a top 20-25 caliber GOAT legend. He was THE BEST total package of scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding EVER at the SF for a long ass time! Pip didn't have the alpha dog scoring like Hondo did.

It took guys like G Hill and Bron to eventually pass him by in that regard. Don't think Hondo gets the credit he deserves in that regard. Unless you are a student of the game, many people don't understand Hondo was the CLOSEST thing to guys like a Pip, Bron, and Hill in his era. In terms of the great two way SF who had the skills of a point guard. Back then, guys didn't float between PG, SG, and SF like they did in later eras. BUT Hondo was CERTAINLY one of the first guys along with the Big O capable of that. It just wasn't explored like that in that era.

[Real14]

I definitely have him top 20.

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Probably top 25, he used to be in 15-20 range back then but several guys have since passed him

GOAT 6th man, revolutionized that role and excelled as a 6th man, a starter, and as a franchise player

[Jasper]

Top 15-20. He's one of my favorite players and easily the most under-appreciated player ever.

Havlicek had endless effort and hustle. I'm talking running back on every basket. Him and Danny Ainge stick out to me for that.
15-20 for now , but he may get bumped over time.
One can't forget his PER as well as rings though - complete player for sure.

[Jasper]

Probably top 25, he used to be in 15-20 range back then but several guys have since passed him

GOAT 6th man, revolutionized that role and excelled as a 6th man, a starter, and as a franchise player
I think the 6th man award should be named after him.

[Manny98]

he's the GOAT according to ISH finals record is all that matters

You can't beat 8/8

[SpaceJam2]

he's the GOAT according to ISH finals record is all that matters

You can't beat 8/8

:bowdown:

[GimmeThat]

basketball didn't seem to be categorized as entertainment for him

but he also passed on the money of his understanding regarding all sports in general