Does Lebron really make his team mates better?

[MJ23forever]

We have heard forever that Lebron James makes those around him better, but the FACTS are that nobody he's played with (players of note) have had their best seasons playing alongside LeBron James, in fact many have gotten worse.

Carlos Boozer? Best seasons were with Deron Williams
Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Best season was in 2003.....before LeBron
Ricky Davis? Best season was in 2003...before LeBron (he averaged 20/5/5 the season before Lebron, was shipped out because they thought he'd take touches away from Lebron.)
Larry Hughes? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (averaged 22+ a game with Washington, gets traded to the Cavs and his average dips to under 15)
Delonte West? Best seasons were with Paul Pierce
Mo Williams? Best seasons were with Michael Redd in '07 and '08, LeBron turned him into a Steve Kerr type of role when that was never his game in Milwaukee.
Antawn Jamison? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (Jamison went from being a 20+ point a game scorer while having to share the ball with Gilbert and Butler, He averaged 15 points a game with Lebron.
Shaq? Finished his All-Star season in 2009 with Phoenix averaging 18+ ppg on 61% shooting a game, down to 12ppg on 56% shooting with Lebron
Hell, Anderson Varejao? Best seasons have been after Lebron left, even Jason Kapono became a wonderful shooter and double figure scorer once he got out of Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Shaq in Miami.

Dwyane Wade? Hasn't been the same top 3 player he once was since Lebron came to South Beach
Chris Bosh? Hasn't been the same since he left Toronto. Went from putting up 24 and 10 to putting up 16 and 6
Ray Allen? Hasn't shot this low from the field in over 5 years.

[dh144498]

We have heard forever that Lebron James makes those around him better, but the FACTS are that nobody he's played with (players of note) have had their best seasons playing alongside LeBron James, in fact many have gotten worse.

Carlos Boozer? Best seasons were with Deron Williams
Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Best season was in 2003.....before LeBron
Ricky Davis? Best season was in 2003...before LeBron (he averaged 20/5/5 the season before Lebron, was shipped out because they thought he'd take touches away from Lebron.)
Larry Hughes? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (averaged 22+ a game with Washington, gets traded to the Cavs and his average dips to under 15)
Delonte West? Best seasons were with Paul Pierce
Mo Williams? Best seasons were with Michael Redd in '07 and '08, LeBron turned him into a Steve Kerr type of role when that was never his game in Milwaukee.
Antawn Jamison? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (Jamison went from being a 20+ point a game scorer while having to share the ball with Gilbert and Butler, He averaged 15 points a game with Lebron.
Shaq? Finished his All-Star season in 2009 with Phoenix averaging 18+ ppg on 61% shooting a game, down to 12ppg on 56% shooting with Lebron
Hell, Anderson Varejao? Best seasons have been after Lebron left, even Jason Kapono became a wonderful shooter and double figure scorer once he got out of Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Shaq in Miami.

Dwyane Wade? Hasn't been the same top 3 player he once was since Lebron came to South Beach
Chris Bosh? Hasn't been the same since he left Toronto. Went from putting up 24 and 10 to putting up 16 and 6
Ray Allen? Hasn't shot this low from the field in over 5 years.

to be fair, Wade was still elite in the 2010-2011 season, but that was because Lebron was robin. :oldlol:

[Wavy Crockett]

OP is from The Coli. :lebronamazed:

[WayOfWade]

Mo Williams?

[tpols]

People will point to Cavs record after LeBron left as a reason why he makes his teammates better but I'd argue it means the opposite.

Teammates that have the potential to be good to great become so reliant on Lebron's legendary ability to carry the team that they are eased into smaller and smaller roles over time which diminishes their play in the long run.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

We have heard forever that Lebron James makes those around him better, but the FACTS are that nobody he's played with (players of note) have had their best seasons playing alongside LeBron James, in fact many have gotten worse.

Carlos Boozer? Best seasons were with Deron Williams
Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Best season was in 2003.....before LeBron
Ricky Davis? Best season was in 2003...before LeBron (he averaged 20/5/5 the season before Lebron, was shipped out because they thought he'd take touches away from Lebron.)
Larry Hughes? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (averaged 22+ a game with Washington, gets traded to the Cavs and his average dips to under 15)
Delonte West? Best seasons were with Paul Pierce
Mo Williams? Best seasons were with Michael Redd in '07 and '08, LeBron turned him into a Steve Kerr type of role when that was never his game in Milwaukee.
Antawn Jamison? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (Jamison went from being a 20+ point a game scorer while having to share the ball with Gilbert and Butler, He averaged 15 points a game with Lebron.
Shaq? Finished his All-Star season in 2009 with Phoenix averaging 18+ ppg on 61% shooting a game, down to 12ppg on 56% shooting with Lebron
Hell, Anderson Varejao? Best seasons have been after Lebron left, even Jason Kapono became a wonderful shooter and double figure scorer once he got out of Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Shaq in Miami.

Dwyane Wade? Hasn't been the same top 3 player he once was since Lebron came to South Beach
Chris Bosh? Hasn't been the same since he left Toronto. Went from putting up 24 and 10 to putting up 16 and 6
Ray Allen? Hasn't shot this low from the field in over 5 years.
:eek: :eek: :eek: DAT ETHER THE SHIT THAT MAKE UR SOUL BURN SLOW:eek: :eek: :bowdown:
Lebron is the most overrated teammate ever

[plowking]

So you wanted Bosh to continue averaging 20/10 despite being a 3rd option?
Antawn Jamison was somehow supposed to become 25 again?
Mo Williams somehow better with Redd despite becoming an all star with Bron?
Delonte West was better at Boston based on what?
Larry Hughes was injured his whole career, and a plug.
Boozer played with Lebron for two seasons... his rookie one and sophomore. Yeah, I guess that was supposed to be his peak...

And Big Z... Actually put up his best season with Lebron.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Yes because Palvovic and Anthony Parker played amazing everywhere else in their careers. And don't forget Boobie Gibson he's an all-star right now. Phoenix's medical staff kept Shaq healthy.
D-Wade has been injured and put up 25-5-5 in 2011.

[Nebraskanball]

No. He actually hurts their performances most of the time.

[oh the horror]

I'm wondering if its due to offenses being centered around Lebron and others becoming to reliant on him to produce first which in the long run hurts the team concept.

[Vienceslav]

How do you even judge that?
It's something you say Kobe doesn't if you are Bill Simmons, but other than that the definition is pretty blurry.
For example Jordan did it 'through sheer intimidation' whatever that means.
It's safe to say Magic and Bird are all time greats in this category.
As for Lebron, he makes a lot of passes, but so do most point guards, is it simply by being taller that Lebron makes them better, I don't know , I guess you'd have to be a teammate of his to find you.
On another point, if you are the owner and you are paying these guys up to 20 mil a year, you'd hope they would make themselves better.

[ripthekik]

I think this is an obvious fact to any non-Heat NBA fan now. Lebron doesn't make his teammates better. They simply become spot up shooters or cutters.

[360crazy]

We have heard forever that Lebron James makes those around him better, but the FACTS are that nobody he's played with (players of note) have had their best seasons playing alongside LeBron James, in fact many have gotten worse.

Carlos Boozer? Best seasons were with Deron Williams
Zydrunas Ilgauskas? Best season was in 2003.....before LeBron
Ricky Davis? Best season was in 2003...before LeBron (he averaged 20/5/5 the season before Lebron, was shipped out because they thought he'd take touches away from Lebron.)
Larry Hughes? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (averaged 22+ a game with Washington, gets traded to the Cavs and his average dips to under 15)
Delonte West? Best seasons were with Paul Pierce
Mo Williams? Best seasons were with Michael Redd in '07 and '08, LeBron turned him into a Steve Kerr type of role when that was never his game in Milwaukee.
Antawn Jamison? Best seasons were with Gilbert Arenas (Jamison went from being a 20+ point a game scorer while having to share the ball with Gilbert and Butler, He averaged 15 points a game with Lebron.
Shaq? Finished his All-Star season in 2009 with Phoenix averaging 18+ ppg on 61% shooting a game, down to 12ppg on 56% shooting with Lebron
Hell, Anderson Varejao? Best seasons have been after Lebron left, even Jason Kapono became a wonderful shooter and double figure scorer once he got out of Cleveland and was playing with Wade and Shaq in Miami.

Dwyane Wade? Hasn't been the same top 3 player he once was since Lebron came to South Beach
Chris Bosh? Hasn't been the same since he left Toronto. Went from putting up 24 and 10 to putting up 16 and 6
Ray Allen? Hasn't shot this low from the field in over 5 years.


Tell me about their success rates before LeBron though. Lebron doesn't make his team better? That's y he's a 4 x mvp? That's y the cavs won 60+ games multiple times? Either you are trolling or you are being intellectually dishonest. I can't believe ppl have stooped this low to discredit Lebron. Smh.

[ripthekik]

Tell me about their success rates before LeBron though. Lebron doesn't make his team better? That's y he's a 4 x mvp? That's y the cavs won 60+ games multiple times? Either you are trolling or you are being intellectually dishonest. I can't believe ppl have stooped this low to discredit Lebron. Smh.
He's posted how a lot of the guys were more successful prior to joining Lebron already. Read the first post again.

Biggest:
Wade = FMVP, NBA Champion.
Bosh = Led his own team for 7 years with 20/10ish stats.

[Lebron23]

Yes

Cavaliers

18-11 - Lebron
1-8 - without Lebron

He make his teams better.

[Mr. Jabbar]

damn, thought rip was back..

*goosebumps

[Marchesk]

Makes Ray Allen more clutch.

[Lebron23]

Ripthekik is Crose.

[Twiens]

Yes

Cavaliers

18-11 - Lebron
1-8 - without Lebron

He make his teams better.

Varejao = MVP

It's been proven.

[aj1987]

Not only his previous teammates, but look at Chalmers, Cole, Wade, and Bosh's FG%. Chalmers and Cole went from looking like bench players to being straight up garbage.

[Indian guy]

The big decline in efficiency of most of his teammates when he left Cleveland and Miami tells YES. Besides, who has actually declined playing with LeBron? Of the few good players he has played with in his career('Mo, Wade, Bosh, Love and Irving), all with the exception of Love either played the best ball of their career w/ him, or posted their most efficient seasons from the field with him.

More importantly, the unprecedented collapse his former teams descend into despite little change in rosters further indicates that nobody has impacted their team's winning % more so than LeBron has in NBA history. This, obviously, is a source of great annoyance to haters. But hey, it's the truth. It's unfathomable how his teams are simply incapable of being decent w/o him while being good to elite with him.

[Lebron23]

The big decline in efficiency of most of his teammates when he left Cleveland and Miami tells YES. Besides, who has actually declined playing with LeBron? Of the few good players he has played with in his career('Mo, Wade, Bosh, Love and Irving), all with the exception of Love either played the best ball of their career w/ him, or posted their most efficient seasons from the field with him.

More importantly, the unprecedented collapse his former teams descend into despite little change in rosters further indicates that nobody has impacted their team's winning % more so than LeBron has in NBA history. This, obviously, is a source of great annoyance to haters. But hey, it's the truth. It's unfathomable how his teams are simply incapable of being decent w/o him while being good to elite with him.


Not only his previous teammates, but look at Chalmers, Cole, Wade, and Bosh's FG%. Chalmers and Cole went from looking like bench players to being straight up garbage.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[hawkfan]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11257156

[AI09]

Of course lebron makes his team better anyone to say different is either a hater or just plain dumb. He made the cavs relevant and brought them many successful seasons conference finals and finals appearances he left Cleveland and what happen they instantly became bottom of the league material. 3 1rst overall picks and a top 5 pick in the four years he was gone. He joined the heat and helped bring a couple rings to miami. Now he's back in Cleveland and although they are far from a top team this year he's the main reason they are even in the playoff picture I mean how many games did they win w.o him? 1?

[305Baller]

He did not make Chris Bosh better.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He'll take average pieces, and make them contenders. But he marginalizes great talent given his jack of all trades, master of none playing style. Simply too much historical evidence that proves both to be true. Including this year's Cavaliers squad. Their record to talent ratio is way out of whack. There is 3 all-star starters on that team.

[knicksman]

its perpetuated by idiots who has no idea about this game beyond stats. For them, as long as you have apg, your making your teammates better. They think iverson, marbury, robertson are making teammates better despite being considered cancers by teammates and coaches.

[Overdrive]

Yes

Cavaliers

18-11 - Lebron
1-8 - without Lebron

He make his teams better.

Teams, yes, mates, maybe. Of course a great player like him will reduce the roles of other "stars". That doesn't mean he makes them useless just means the usage rates shift. He makes his teammates indirectly more efficient, as usage rate and efficiency are commonly indirect proportional.

What LeBron surely doesn't is to play to his teammates' strengthes.

[Magic 32]

Lebron makes bad player average and great players...average.

[HiphopRelated]

Not only his previous teammates, but look at Chalmers, Cole, Wade, and Bosh's FG%. Chalmers and Cole went from looking like bench players to being straight up garbage.
Look at Lebron's fg%

[Dresta]

Not only his previous teammates, but look at Chalmers, Cole, Wade, and Bosh's FG%. Chalmers and Cole went from looking like bench players to being straight up garbage.
That's just rubbish. Chalmers and Cole's inability to hit wide open shots has nothing to do with Lebron. They aren't missing contested looks, they are missing the most open of shots.

Chalmers shot 37% from 3 in his rookie season (without Bron), and he's shooting 29% this season. Both of them can barely get the ball over halfcourt these days. This all has very little to do with Bron.

Likewise, looking at FG% to gauge efficiency is stupid. Both Wade and Bosh have TS% that are higher than or equivalent to several of the seasons they played with Bron. Wade's FG% has dropped because his USG% is as high as it was in 09/10. Bosh's USG% has also increased significantly

Bron's, on the other hand, has decreased, along with his efficiency. That's a key distinction that needs to be made and has thus far been ignored in this thread.

Bron's USG% last year = 31; this year = 30.7

TS% last year = 65; this year = 58

Who's really dropped off here? Bosh & Wade had big increases in USG% and only small drop-offs in efficiency. Bron had a tiny decrease in USG% and a HUGE decrease in efficiency (while playing on a team loaded with 3-point shooters no less).

[kshutts1]

Better by which definition?

Better stats?
More effective/efficient?
More skills added to their repertoire?
More likely to win without said superstar?

I think that Lebron James' game puts his teammates into positions to be more successful than they would normally be without a Lebron-caliber player on their team.
I'm not saying their raw stats will be better, or that skills will magically be added, or that the team, without Lebron, will be good.

But I am saying that having a Lebron, Magic, Jordan, Oscar, West, Kobe, Durant, etc, on the same puts the other players in a better position to succeed on the court, most often through increased efficiency if not usage and raw stats.

Now, that's just a theory of mine. If someone were to post the stats of all the players that have ever played with the above, both with and without them in the game, and it showed that my theory is wrong.. so be it.

[ArbitraryWater]

People will point to Cavs record after LeBron left as a reason why he makes his teammates better but I'd argue it means the opposite.

Teammates that have the potential to be good to great become so reliant on Lebron's legendary ability to carry the team that they are eased into smaller and smaller roles over time which diminishes their play in the long run.

Kobetards reaching new lows of denial and excuse making :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

He'll take average pieces, and make them contenders. But he marginalizes great talent given his jack of all trades, master of none playing style. Simply too much historical evidence that proves both to be true. Including this year's Cavaliers squad. Their record to talent ratio is way out of whack. There is 3 all-star starters on that team.

I don't see it... Bosh looks horrible without LeBron right now, efficiency way down... LeBron upped both Wade's and Bosh' percentages.

Love and Irving, Cavs without LeBron are 1-8.... nothing to support your statement.

At this point, LeBron being a top 3 GOAT is pretty much a look in terms of impact, given the on/off + with/without records of his teams, and comparing their percentages with/without LeBron + overall team's offensive/defensive rating. LeBron brings a significant improvement in all these categories.

[pauk]

Ofcourse when a guy who would shoot 20 FGA and is basically a PG joins your team your ball possessions, shots goes down...

But this goes for any great offensive player in NBA history....... take your guy there Michael Jordan for example and see how his teammates did in their primes statistically with and without him.......

Its just LOGIC...

That is not what making your teammates better means and it also goes beyond the court....

Say, me and you play with the Cavaliers.... Lebron is not there.... ingame me and you have to try create shots desperately, we will get more shots up, "statistically" we will be "better"... but we will lose the game miserably........ Lebron comes back, first of all pushes us in practice trying to help us improve our games over time and uses his bball IQ to tell how we should approach the game based on our best skills, all this to exploit WHAT WE CAN DO BEST.... the game comes on, he is now making OUR job much more easier and we win.........

So even though statistically we are worse.... we are still BETTER.... understand?

[305Baller]

I don't see it... Bosh looks horrible without LeBron right now, efficiency way down... LeBron upped both Wade's and Bosh' percentages.

Love and Irving, Cavs without LeBron are 1-8.... nothing to support your statement.

At this point, LeBron being a top 3 GOAT is pretty much a look in terms of impact, given the on/off + with/without records of his teams, and comparing their percentages with/without LeBron + overall team's offensive/defensive rating. LeBron brings a significant improvement in all these categories.

Just no.

[Quickening]

People complain that Lebron is more obsessed about his stats than winning... they then ignore the fact teams win far more games with him on them, players win far more games... and they just focus on individual player stats.

That irony :roll: :lol :applause:

[tpols]

I don't see it... Bosh looks horrible without LeBron right now, efficiency way down... LeBron upped both Wade's and Bosh' percentages.
e/defensive rating. LeBron brings a significant improvement in all these categories.

Wade TS with LeBron = 58TS
Wade this season = 56TS
52 average field goal % to 50.

Bosh TS with LeBron = 58TS
Bosh this season = 58TS
51 FG % to 48.

Very small dropoffs.. 1-2 % max in overall efficncy

Now for bran..

62TS to 58TS
54FG to 49FG

hmm.. Looks like brans dropped off more than Bosh and Wade combined.. :eek:

Aw getting exposed with stupid comments like the bold.. Again.. Shouldn't you be telling us how KG wasn't a great defender until he came to Boston and how Steve Nash is only a marginally worse defender than Jason kidd? Please enlighten us with some more of your shitty, unfounded or capable of being supported basketball opinions!

[Lebron23]

Say What???

Go Eat some poop Tpols.

[34-24 Footwork]

Lol. Lebron saves the layups and dunks for himself and forces other players to take lower percentage attempts.

It's not that complicated. Chalmers never developed in a system with Lebron. Wiggins saw what was happening to younger guys that played with Lebron and encouraged the proposed Wiggins-Love trade.

If you watched the heat from 2011-2014,Lebron tried his hardest to keep a high FG%....even at the expense of team success.

[Bankaii]

Lol. Lebron saves the layups and dunks for himself and forces other players to take lower percentage attempts.

It's not that complicated. Chalmers never developed in a system with Lebron. Wiggins saw what was happening to younger guys that played with Lebron and encouraged the proposed Wiggins-Love trade.

If you watched the heat from 2011-2014,Lebron tried his hardest to keep a high FG%....even at the expense of team success.
Dude is completely incapable of making a non-shit post on anything concerning Lebron.