LeBron says Tim Duncan is most dominant of last 15 years.

[K Xerxes]

If I just look at the last 15 years, he's probably been the most consistent, most dominant player that we've had as far as 15 years all together. He's won four titles, multiple All Stars, MVP, and so on and so on.

I think He doesn't get a lot of recognition because he's not flashy like a lot of guys are. He's not jumping over people and high‑flying and doing the things that attracts people to the game. But I think true basketball, true IQ people, players know how great he is. What else can you say?

LeBron spitting some truth about the great Tim Duncan and his generation. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[chosen_one6]

LeGod dropping knowledge that hardcore fans already knew. This was for the casuals.

[Andrei89]

It is true though.

Duncan is a legend.

[cotdt]

Nah, Kobe is more dominant.

[dh144498]

this won't end well.

[chosen_wun]

LeBron sounding your typical pro-Duncan poster, Kobetards won't be pleased.

[Alan Ogg]

For real about the consistency. Do yourself a favor and look at Duncan's per 36 minutes for his career. It's absolutely INSANE!! :bowdown:

Seriously, look at his per 36 minutes. I dare you.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html

[DuMa]

top 10 GOAT recognizing other top 10 GOATs :pimp:

[cotdt]

Tim Duncan had all-star teammates in Parker and Ginobili, and excellent role players in a deep team. Kobe had just one all-star big, lack of team depth and inconsistent team defense. Kobe is better.

[TheWalkman]

I don't like Lebron, but the dude is right on this one. :applause:

[DMV2]

Tim Duncan had all-star teammates in Parker and Ginobili, and excellent role players in a deep team. Kobe had just one all-star big, lack of team depth and inconsistent team defense. Kobe is better.
He won a title without Parker and Manu...and won another title with a sophomore Parker and Manu as a rookie.

And either neither of those guys combined are as good as Prime Shaq.

[Purch]

Greatness recognizes greatness :cheers:

[Trollsmasher]

And he is right:rockon:

[Notitlesince73]

Lebron saying what we all know

[LBJ 23]

Excatly how I feel about Duncan

[Burgz V2]

inb4 kobe fans take over this thread

[tpols]

He won a title without Parker and Manu...and won another title with a sophomore Parker and Manu as a rookie.

And either neither of those guys combined are as good as Prime Shaq.

A backcourt of manu ginobili and tony parker is equal to a frontcourt of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom right?

Imagine if Kobe had those two for over a decade and a GOAT coach that never left? Lakers won two titles and made three finals in a three year stretch while all three were still in their primes playing great ball. 7 more years of chances when Pau, Odom and Kobe were even younger and more explosive would certainly result in at least 2 more titles on top of that.

The only thing is can Pau defer to Kobe from 02 to 10 without ever losing motivation or interest like he did in 11? As long as Byum doesnt come along to steal his role its certainly possible.

Shaq doesnt matter.. Kobe gets no credit for those rings anyways from 95% of people on this site

[AirFederer]

Timmy :applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

15 years isn't a single-season, you idiots. :oldlol:

[tpols]

He wasn't saying that when he was licking Kobe's butt a few years back for like 6 years straight...

I remember correctly...."best player in the game, unbelievable, no words to describe what he's doing. "He's amazing". Talking to Magic "He's that guy"(now it seems to be Pierce)....."

Lebron is full of shit - just like his fans. That too is true.
Hes just paying his respects to the legend hes about to face in the finals.. These guys are all great and everything is extremely subjective. Theyre just paying their respects like they should be.

[tazb]

He's right.

[AintNoSunshine]

I really love how everyone leaves kobe out of discussions like this, Nash, Malone, Artest, Lebron, but it's the kobe stans who kept on yapping "but kobe's the goat, kobe best at this best at that"

[K Xerxes]

A backcourt of manu ginobili and tony parker is equal to a frontcourt of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom right?

Imagine if Kobe had those two for over a decade and a GOAT coach that never left? Lakers won two titles and made three finals in a three year stretch while all three were still in their primes playing great ball. 7 more years of chances when Pau, Odom and Kobe were even younger and more explosive would certainly result in at least 2 more titles on top of that.

The only thing is can Pau defer to Kobe from 02 to 10 without ever losing motivation or interest like he did in 11? As long as Byum doesnt come along to steal his role its certainly possible.

People always bring up that Timmy was lucky to have such a strong group and foundation for 10-15 years while Kobe's was inconsistent, but I'd attribute that more to Timmy and his on and off court demeanour and attitude towards team mates than pure luck. Timmy has never publicly called out team mates, he's been like a brother to everyone. It's obvious how appreciative all his team mates are of him, past and present.

Timmy's supporting cast in 03 and 05 < Kobe's in 09 and 10. Hell, it's arguable that his supporting cast in 99 wasn't that great either.

[cotdt]

Lakers always beats the crap out of the Spurs in the playoffs. Lakers dominate the West much more.

[Horatio33]

Lakers always beats the crap out of the Spurs in the playoffs. Lakers dominate the West much more.

2003 Spurs Prime Tim, rookie Manu, second year Parker, washed up David Robinson, started Malik Rose some games, beat Shaq and Kobe Lakers in 6.

99 Spurs swept 99 Lakers in the Lakers final ever game at the Forum.

[Knoe Itawl]

lol @ the only people disagreeing being the usual Kobetard suspects.

Bron is right, of course.

[Duncan21formvp]

LeBron spitting some truth about the great Tim Duncan and his generation. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Lebron is speaking the truth here.

[PickernRoller]

Yea, you're mad. Why would LeBron say Kobe was the most dominant? Tim Duncan has actually you know....beat LeBron. Kobe's teams have been doormats for LeBron since he came into the league.

So you deny what your boy has said and claim it to be false since he came to this league? You are willing to go down and deny his words to move your agenda. If I make my math right - professing his fanboyism since 2003-2009 = 6 years. Considering Kobe has been a better player than Duncan post 2010 till 2013 I guess that makes Kobe more dominant in your boy's eyes. I can't however stay put with the inconsistencies and the BS your boy spits everyday. I mean we all know Jordan picking Kobe over him hurt his ego. That basically puts to bed comparisons till he gets at least 4 rings. Lebron's tune has changed - but the change is been coming for a few years know. Can't be the Kobe whipping boy anymore - not when you're trying to build a legacy. That's a fact clown. I don't give two f'cks at the spins you guys come up with everyday.

You're the one mad - replying to my post much? I just came and stated some facts before the party got some steam. Already got some customers.

[chazzy]

Duncan better from 99-05(01 is close either way), Kobe better from 06-13

[SpurrDurr]

Duncan better from 99-05(01 is close either way), Kobe better from 06-13

The 2012-2013 is strongly arguable since TD reached NBA finals.

[chazzy]

The 2012-2013 is strongly arguable since TD reached NBA finals.
Kobe reached the finals in 02 and 04 also.. doesn't mean he's better

[dh144498]

2 reasons lebron is saying this:
1. he's facing Tim Duncan and the Spurs
2. he wants to rub it in Kobe's face, since deep down inside, Lebron knows Kobe was the most dominant in the last 15 years.

[PickernRoller]

Duncan better from 99-03(01 is close either way), Kobe better from 04-13

Fixed.

[SCdac]

lol @ the only people disagreeing being the usual Kobetard suspects.

Bron is right, of course.

Yeah the animosity and resentment coming from Kobe stans on ISH is getting to be an all time high... how many threads can kobe nut huggers derail?

Lebron is right. Look at Duncan's win-%. Look at how many times his teams have missed the playoffs. Look at separation in years he's lead championship teams (99 to 07) as the best player. Look at the GM surveys acknowledging his value. Back-to-Back MVPs. His current status as one of the best big men. Anybody starting a franchise would pick TD over Kobe.

[K Xerxes]

2 reasons lebron is saying this:
1. he's facing Tim Duncan and the Spurs
2. he wants to rub it in Kobe's face, since deep down inside, Lebron knows Kobe was the most dominant in the last 15 years.

3. Duncan was the most dominant player in the last 15 years.

Answer: 3.

[dh144498]

Yeah the animosity and resentment coming from Kobe stans on ISH is getting to be an all time high... how many threads can kobe nut huggers derail?

Lebron is right. Look at Duncan's win-%. Look at how many times his teams have missed the playoffs. Look at separation in years he's lead championship teams (99 to 07) as the best player. Look at the GM surveys acknowledging his value. Back-to-Back MVPs. His current status as one of the best big men. Anybody starting a franchise would pick TD over Kobe.

bu bu bu bu but i thought "winning is a team accomplishment." So now Duncan is the most dominant because of the win% of his team?

And how is winning chips more spread apart better than winning consecutive chips? :wtf:
If i remember correctly, besides 2006, Shaq and Kobe were the reasons why the Spurs never got to repeat. 2000, 2004, 2008.

[SilkkTheShocker]

2 reasons lebron is saying this:
1. he's facing Tim Duncan and the Spurs
2. he wants to rub it in Kobe's face, since deep down inside, Lebron knows Kobe was the most dominant in the last 15 years.

I didn't know dominant players lost missed the playoffs in their prime playing with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler.

[dh144498]

3. Duncan was the most dominant player in the last 15 years.

Answer: 3.

arguable. But it comes down to opinions. I don't have problems with people who say Duncan because it's pretty close overall.

[K Xerxes]

arguable. But it comes down to opinions. I don't have problems with people who say Duncan because it's pretty close overall.

The fact that a relentless Kobe troll admits it's pretty close means it's not close at all and Duncan was definitely the most dominant player. Thanks.

[sc19]

There's no argument whatsoever.

[tpols]

Yeah the animosity and resentment coming from Kobe stans on ISH is getting to be an all time high... how many threads can kobe nut huggers derail?

Lebron is right. Look at Duncan's win-%. Look at how many times his teams have missed the playoffs. Look at separation in years he's lead championship teams (99 to 07) as the best player. Look at the GM surveys acknowledging his value. Back-to-Back MVPs. His current status as one of the best big men. Anybody starting a franchise would pick TD over Kobe.
And many would take Russel or Kareem over MJ.. not because MJ wasnt better, but because big men are a more steady investment.

Duncan averaged what? 12/10 for a few years before this one.. his team won 55-60 games each time with Parker being the best player on the team. How does that speak to Duncan as an individual? It speaks to SAS as a franchise and, to a smaller degree the production of Tony Parker.

[dh144498]

it's funny, everyone who always disliked the championship argument when comparing players always say "winning is a team effort."
But in this thread, you see the same people bringing up winning% and missing playoffs. What happened to the "winning is a team effort" argument?
:lol :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dirk and Wade both said Kobe was the last 15 years. Just saying...

[dh144498]

The fact that a relentless Kobe troll admits it's pretty close means it's not close at all and Duncan was definitely the most dominant player. Thanks.

yeah, anyone who disagrees is now a troll. Ok, you certainly win this argument. Very well argued.

[SCdac]

bu bu bu bu but i thought "winning is a team accomplishment." So now Duncan is the most dominant because of the win% of his team?

And how is winning chips more spread apart better than winning consecutive chips? :wtf:
If i remember correctly, besides 2006, Shaq and Kobe were the reasons why the Spurs never got to repeat. 2000, 2004, 2008.

Are MVPs team accomplishments? Finals MVPs?

did you even read my whole post or are you going to settle for nitpicking? .. dominance takes into account individual and team accomplishments. NBA is not one on one.

Besides, Win-% only accounts for games Duncan has played in, so it's not like he's reaping the benefits of Spurs wins he wasn't a part of.

How can winning chips spread apart not be construed as dominance over a period of time (ie. 15 years)? You mean to tell me if player x win 2 championships in a row then say falls off the map, that's the same as a player maintaining a certain level of excellence over time?

[Ne 1]

Shaq > Duncan. If Duncan is more dominant than Shaq, you might as well say KG was more dominant too.

[PickernRoller]

Dirk and Wade both said Kobe was the last 15 years. Just saying...

Jordan picking Kobe over him has hurt his ego tremendously. I mean I can't find a more pathetic response that the one he gave when responding to Jordan's comments.

"I don't pick Russel over Jordan cause of the rings" " There are other things than rings that a player is measured on"

Just like his fans in this forum. Pathetic response for a grown man - playing at cynicism.

[Knoe Itawl]

:oldlol: @ the only people disagreeing STILL being the usual Kobetard suspects. Too funny.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:oldlol: @ the only people disagreeing STILL being the usual Kobetard suspects. Too funny.
Are Dirk and Wade Kobetards? I'll take Dirk's opinion over Lebron's. Dirk played when Duncan was at his peak.

[PickernRoller]

:oldlol: @ the only people disagreeing STILL being the usual Kobetard suspects. Too funny.

Why so mad son? Exposing your boy as a clown got you hurt? Or, still mad the 'Kobe" stans got the last laugh for your stupidity in this forum? Or, perhaps that you appear out of nothing to laugh at "Kobe" fans for trivial things that have no real truth, nor the slightest of significance outside this forum.

Yep you mad. And I pity your troll attempts - so weak I almost vomit.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Are people really shocked LeBron said this? Kobe has been his doormat since he came into the league. It only makes sense that he would have more respect for a player that had the ability to beat him.

[dh144498]

Are MVPs team accomplishments? Finals MVPs?

did you even read my whole post or are you going to settle for nitpicking? .. dominance takes into account individual and team accomplishments. NBA is not one on one.

Besides, Win-% only accounts for games Duncan has played in, so it's not like he's reaping the benefits of Spurs wins he wasn't a part of.

How can winning chips spread apart not be construed as dominance over a period of time (ie. 15 years)? You mean to tell me if player x win 2 championships in a row then say falls off the map, that's the same as a player maintaining a certain level of excellence over time?

MVP is given to the best player on a top 2-3 seeded team. So it has to do with team winning. I didn't say FMVP did, but that award gets over credited/discredited by posters on this board so it has lost its meaning. "Kobe didn't have FMVP on his first 3 rings, so they don't count, so he really only has 2 rings." what kind of logic is that? :wtf:

And as far as the winning chips spread apart or not, you make a good point as well. But look at it this way, what's more convincing when talking about a team dominating the league? a team that wins once every 2 years apart or a team that wins 2-3 consecutive years?
the first just strikes to me as a one hit wonder type of team, who can manage to win 1 year but falls off the next. Where as the latter strikes to me as the more dominant team that, once gets 1 championship, continues its dominance for several years to come.

[dh144498]

:oldlol: @ the only people disagreeing STILL being the usual Kobetard suspects. Too funny.

you already posted this couple pages back.

[PickernRoller]

Are Dirk and Wade Kobetards? I'll take Dirk's opinion over Lebron's. Dirk played when Duncan was at his peak.

No need for Wade and Dirk. Lebron's words suffice - we just miraculously decide to ignore them for the sake of arguing about the butthurt comments of LeQueen. Dude's on a roll to build a legacy and is flip flopping his way through it - just like his game and his record.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Bill Simmons' tribute to Tim Duncan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jTBbrQgTEk

"Greater than Kobe, greater than Garnett, even greater than Shaq"

[SilkkTheShocker]

Shaq > Duncan. If Duncan is more dominant than Shaq, you might as well say KG was more dominant too.

Why aren't posting under your MJForever username?

[sportjames23]

Nothing more funny than Kobe and Lebron stanleys going at it. :oldlol:

[sportjames23]

Ok, it just hit me why Lebron stans are repping Duncan--if the Heat win, then Lebrontites can say he beat the player that was the most dominant of the last 15 years. His stans will then lay claim as the best player of that era.

[Heavincent]

:oldlol: @ the only people disagreeing STILL being the usual Kobetard suspects. Too funny.

Aren't you the dude who swore on your mother's grave that Kobe would never win without Shaq? :oldlol:

[dh144498]

Ok, it just hit me why Lebron stans are repping Duncan--if the Heat win, then Lebrontites can say he beat the player that was the most dominant of the last 15 years. His stans will then lay claim as the best player of that era.

:oldlol:

[Harison]

Timmy is awesome and all, but in what universe was Shaq playing then? :confusedshrug:

[Knoe Itawl]

Aren't you the dude who swore on your mother's grave that Kobe would never win without Shaq? :oldlol:

My mother's still alive so why would I do that? I know you Kobetards are stupid but.........

Also, get new material. All Kobetards can do over and over again (instead of offering anything that even resembles a coherrent argument) is say "bu bu, Kobe won 2 more".

Still doesn't stop Duncan from being better than him. Still doesn't stop LeBron from being better than him. Still doesn't make him any less overrated than he has been.

Still didn't stop Jeff from saying you Kobetards are the WORST troll freakshow idiots in the 13 years he's run this site. And on and on. All it does did was prove that a big market LA team could rape a small market one. Memphis got LA those chips, not Kobe. :oldlol:

[chazzy]

Memphis got LA those chips, not Kobe. :oldlol:
:facepalm You complain about posting quality, but let's not act like you bring anything but biased vitriol

[chosen_wun]

There is a clown in this thread who is using a Duncan avi but at the same time diminishing his greatness to prop up Kobe :lol

[PickernRoller]

My mother's still alive Lol really?

Still didn't stop Jeff from saying you Kobetards are the WORST troll freakshow idiots in the 13 years he's run this site. Is Jeff your professed GOD now?

The butthurt feels, no need to try and hide it. We own your soul, we are your torment, you're trying to break free. We know - still thou, in our pocket you go.

[buddha]

For real about the consistency. Do yourself a favor and look at Duncan's per 36 minutes for his career. It's absolutely INSANE!! :bowdown:

Seriously, look at his per 36 minutes. I dare you.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html

:lebronamazed: pretty much the exact same as his regular career stats.

[Heavincent]

My mother's still alive so why would I do that? I know you Kobetards are stupid but.........

Also, get new material. All Kobetards can do over and over again (instead of offering anything that even resembles a coherrent argument) is say "bu bu, Kobe won 2 more".

Still doesn't stop Duncan from being better than him. Still doesn't stop LeBron from being better than him. Still doesn't make him any less overrated than he has been.

Still didn't stop Jeff from saying you Kobetards are the WORST troll freakshow idiots in the 13 years he's run this site. And on and on. All it does did was prove that a big market LA team could rape a small market one. Memphis got LA those chips, not Kobe. :oldlol:

Don't get all mad at me because you were 100% factually incorrect about Kobe and now you're not even willing to admit it. Maybe people wouldn't make fun of you for it if you actually admitted you were wrong. You're just like that guy who said Dirk would never win a championship :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

:facepalm You complain about posting quality, but let's not act like you bring anything but biased vitriol

Actually, and you know this, I wrote an extended response regarding my opinion on Kobe winning the two chips. I didn't duck it, I owned up to being wrong on it, and explained why. Invariably, however, some Kobetard is going to keep bringing it up everytime they see me post as if I haven't addressed it several times. At this point, it doesn't deserve a "quality" post in response.

[Knoe Itawl]

Don't get all mad at me because you were 100% factually incorrect about Kobe and now you're not even willing to admit it. Maybe people wouldn't make fun of you for it if you actually admitted you were wrong. You're just like that guy who said Dirk would never win a championship :oldlol:

You're a liar.

[dh144498]

does Know Itawl post anything besides Kobe related stuff just to discredit the guy? :biggums:

[Knoe Itawl]

The butthurt feels, no need to try and hide it. We own your soul, we are your torment, you're trying to break free. We know - still thou, in our pocket you go.

Sorry, I dont' speak moron.

[Heavincent]

You're a liar.


All it does did was prove that a big market LA team could rape a small market one. Memphis got LA those chips, not Kobe.

Looks like denial to me.

[2010splash]

LeBron is being modest, which there's nothing wrong with. Obviously he won't call himself the best player since Jordan even if it's the obvious truth because it would come across as self-aggrandizing. However, the greatest/most dominant players of the last 15 years (i.e. post-Jordan) in order are:

1. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe

[DMAVS41]

Duncan better from 99-05(01 is close either way), Kobe better from 06-13

Duncan has certainly been better this year. Not sure how you can debate that at this point with him being the 2nd best player on a team in the finals while Kobe didn't even play a playoff game.

[K Xerxes]

I love how this whole thread has been more about agendas rather than debating actual substance. Same for pretty much every thread in the forum. Shame.

[longtime lurker]

The funny thing is that if Lebron was going up against the Lakers he'd be saying the same thing about Kobe. It's all just talk whether he believes it or not.

[PickernRoller]

I love how this whole thread has been more about agendas rather than debating actual substance. Same for pretty much every thread in the forum. Shame.

What substance? There has been millions of Kobe vs. Duncan threads on ISH. Might wanna check the first and second page. That doesn't count the millions of comparisons in other sites, outside the internet..........you get the point.

[LBJ 23]

does Know Itawl post anything besides Kobe related stuff just to discredit the guy? :biggums:


And riptekik is your hero. Oh the f*cking irony :lol

[Knoe Itawl]

Looks like denial to me.

chazzy will tell you that not long after the first title, I wrote an extended response regarding him winning a chip, and that I was wrong about him not winning. I've addressed it at least 2 other times since then, but see you're not the only dimwitted Kobetard who thinks it's cute every time they see my name to write "Hey, didn't you say Kobe would never win again?? haha derp" as if it's the first time it's ever been done in the past 4 or so years. So I long ago I said wasn't addressing it again because I already have.

Now I only give troll replies to it, if I reply at all.

[dh144498]

I love how this whole thread has been more about agendas rather than debating actual substance. Same for pretty much every thread in the forum. Shame.

as opposed to....


The fact that a relentless Kobe troll admits it's pretty close means it's not close at all and Duncan was definitely the most dominant player. Thanks.

?
you are just like the people you referenced in your post.
:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't think he can say, for the last 15 years, Kobe has been the MOST dominant. Think about it. Not only has Lebron been more dominant than Kobe the last 5 seasons, he was the lightening rod of the '12 Olympic team (Bean was a mere role player).

Nevermind that Timmy has 4 championships, 3 Finals MVP's and 2 MVP's. :oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

as opposed to....

?
you are just like the people you referenced in your post.
:oldlol:

That avy of his has changed a lot - take his words like a grain of salt.

[Knoe Itawl]

Duncan has certainly been better this year. Not sure how you can debate that at this point with him being the 2nd best player on a team in the finals while Kobe didn't even play a playoff game.

You're really not sure about why Kobe fans do what they do? Chazzy's actually one of the few Laker fans I kind of respect, because he's not a 9erempie, jabbar, griffith, ne1, alpha et al, but most of these Kobe fans will still overrate him if they get any chance to.

[Unbiased_one]

It's definitely close, but it's close between Duncan and shaq, not Duncan and kobe. I mean kobe has never even been the best player in the league for one season.

[DMAVS41]

You're really not sure about why Kobe fans do what they do? Chazzy's actually one of the few Laker fans I kind of respect, because he's not a 9erempie, jabbar, griffith, ne1, alpha et al, but most of these Kobe fans will still overrate him if they get any chance to.

I'm just curious though. I just want to understand where he's coming from...because he told me that there is a large gap between Wade and Kobe in 07...so I'm just curious how he thinks that and then doesn't think Duncan was better this year.

Maybe I am missing something. Will wait for his response.

[longtime lurker]

Duncan has certainly been better this year. Not sure how you can debate that at this point with him being the 2nd best player on a team in the finals while Kobe didn't even play a playoff game.

Duncan wasn't even considered the best player on his team this year. And now you're going to hold Kobe's injury against him? :roll:

[fpliii]

In general, bigs are more dominant than wings. :confusedshrug:

Not really a slight against Kobe IMO.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan has certainly been better this year. Not sure how you can debate that at this point with him being the 2nd best player on a team in the finals while Kobe didn't even play a playoff game.
Because that's the case for Duncan being better than Kobe in 2013. Because Kobe didn't play a playoff game .... Hmmm right sounds valid.

It's not like Kobe tore his Achilles the second to last game of the season after back to back amazing performances dragging his injured squad into the playoffs

Only a clown with an obvious agenda would make this claim.

Kobe was the best player on the Lakers all season. Duncan wasn't the best player on the Spurs at any point let alone the entire season.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan wasn't even considered the best player on his team this year. And now you're going to hold Kobe's injury against him? :roll:

It goes back to a previous conversation in which Chazzy was holding Wade's injury against him in 07 and 08. So not sure why we would use a different criteria now.

When healthy this year...I'd give Kobe a slight edge over Duncan. Very slight though...Duncan was amazing this year. And I'm not sure Parker was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season actually. In the playoffs he has been, but I just don't think people are still giving enough love to a player that averages 18/10/3 and provides perhaps the best interior defense in the league.

[dh144498]

Because that's the case for Duncan being better than Kobe in 2013. It's not like Kobe tore his Achilles the second to last game of the season after back to back amazing performances dragging his injured squad into the playoffs

Only a clown with an obvious agenda would make this claim.

Kobe was the best player on the Lakers all season. Duncan wasn't the best player on the Spurs at any point let alone the entire season.

this DMVAS going full retard again. :oldlol:

[Unbiased_one]

Duncan wasn't even considered the best player on his team this year. And now you're going to hold Kobe's injury against him? :roll:

After kobe got injured, the lakers had to win two games in a row without him to get into the playoffs (and needed some epic refereeing down the stretch e.g vs Golden State). And they did. The lakers with or without kobe were going nowhere this year.

[Knoe Itawl]

Duncan wasn't even considered the best player on his team this year. And now you're going to hold Kobe's injury against him? :roll:

Duncan is still the engine that keeps SA running, Tony and Pop will tell you that. And it's not Duncan's fault that Kobe got injured. However, before he got injured you'll remember that LA was struggling to make the playoffs. You can give me the injury excuse all you want, but that team didn't look that great even on the few occassions they all played together and there was still enough talent for them not to have strugged so much (Chicago Bulls anyone?). Bottom line is that for all of Kobe's scoring, he wasn't a TEAM catalyst to carry that squad. Duncan, on the other hand, had a superb year. Give me Timmy D this year. Give me Timmy D over the past 15 years. Give me Timmy D says anyone other than the usual suspects.

[Heavincent]

chazzy will tell you that not long after the first title, I wrote an extended response regarding him winning a chip

Why? What was there to say besides "I was wrong"?

:lol

[Unbiased_one]

Because that's the case for Duncan being better than Kobe in 2013. Because Kobe didn't play a playoff game .... Hmmm right sounds valid.

It's not like Kobe tore his Achilles the second to last game of the season after back to back amazing performances dragging his injured squad into the playoffs

Only a clown with an obvious agenda would make this claim.

Kobe was the best player on the Lakers all season. Duncan wasn't the best player on the Spurs at any point let alone the entire season.

Kobe didn't drag his team into the playoffs, as they still needed to win both games without him to get in. And they did. He played really well this season, but the lakers with Duncan instead of kobe would've made the playoffs easily.

[K Xerxes]

For anyone bringing up Shaq... he was dominant for the first few years since '98, but he was also very dominant before that with Orlando. He dropped off by the mid-late 00s, which doesn't really mean he qualifies as Kobe and Duncan have played since, and have been very good at some point in that time period.


What substance? There has been millions of Kobe vs. Duncan threads on ISH. Might wanna check the first and second page. That doesn't count the millions of comparisons in other sites, outside the internet..........you get the point.

None of them have any real substance, it's just a bunch of fanwanking on the Kobe sides, and generally the LeBron fanatics take Duncan's side. I've noticed that most fairly neutral fans will take Duncan's side though.


as opposed to....

?
you are just like the people you referenced in your post.
:oldlol:

You are troll whose nonsense doesn't deserve well-thought out and reasoned responses. I'll save my intelligent posts for people I think can debate in turn.

[Knoe Itawl]

Why? What was there to say besides "I was wrong"?

:lol



Now I only give troll replies to it, if I reply at all.

..

[SamuraiSWISH]

Kobe didn't drag his team into the playoffs, as they still needed to win both games without him to get in. And they did. He played really well this season, but the lakers with Duncan instead of kobe would've made the playoffs easily.
Not true. Without those two games specifically the one against the warriors and the Lakers would've been done.

That's a hypothetical. I'm operating on fact. Whose to say Duncan body holds up the way Kobe did playing those kind of minutes?

They have been conserving Duncans minutes for the better part of three years now. Kobe logs the most minutes on the team still. Weight of expectations on his shoulders un like Duncan. Apples and oranges.

Duncan is a very good cog in a very well oiled machine now. Kobe was playing like a retro top of the line sports car this season all on his own.

Did he alienate teammates at the start of the season? Probably but he was still clearly a better more dominant individual player compared to Duncan. Inarguable too in my eyes

[DMAVS41]

Not true. Without those two games specifically the one against the warriors and the Lakers would've been done.

That's a hypothetical. I'm operating on fact. Whose to say Duncan body holds up the way Kobe did playing those kind of minutes?

They have been conserving Duncans minutes for the better part of three years now. Kobe logs the most minutes on the team still. Weight of expectations on his shoulders un like Duncan. Apples and oranges.

Duncan is a very good cog in a very well oiled machine now. Kobe was playing like a retro top of the line sports car this season all on his own.

Did he alienate teammates at the start of the season? Probably but he was still clearly a better more dominant individual player compared to Duncan. Inarguable too in my eyes

but that is kind of the point. Kobe shouldn't have been playing those kind of minutes...for starters, Kobe completely stopped playing any defense at all this year....which is crazy because he kind of stopped playing any defense at all in 2011.

whose to say Kobe could have as big as an impact as Duncan had in only playing 30 minutes per game?

if you want to talk about just when they are healthy...so be it...but then you better normalize minutes played. because the reason kobe puts up better numbers...at least scoring numbers...is because he plays roughly 9 more minutes a game.

so you can't have it both ways in my opinion. yes, duncan might have gotten hurt as well. but Duncan playing 39 mpg is going to put up something around 23/13/4...

[RRR3]

Are Dirk and Wade Kobetards? I'll take Dirk's opinion over Lebron's. Dirk played when Duncan was at his peak.
Why? LeBron has a higher bball iq than either of them

[Kellogs4toniee]

I understand the main focus on this series will be Lebron James and the greatness he brings to the table, but I hope they also focus significant segments to the level of greatness that Duncan has brought to the table. It is disappointing that many of the younger generation of fans will never truly understand how much of a legend Duncan really is. They'll think of him as that old dude that can still fill it up, but 3-4 years when he retires he'll never come up in there minds. Where-as for us more hard-core fans, we'll remember Duncan as a top 10 player that he is. Same can be said for Kidd. And same will be said for Kobe, Nash, Garnett, etc.

[longtime lurker]

Why? LeBron has a higher bball iq than either of them

And you don't think Lebron is only saying this because he's facing Duncan in the finals and wouldn't be saying the same thing if he was facing Kobe in the finals? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm going to just come out and say it ...

Kobe > Duncan

Both career, and peak. For starters, his '99 is a bull shit ring. People want to talk about 2012 being an asterisk ring? '99 was the absolute worst season of basketball EVER.

Players got so fat and lazy, out of shape coming into it the season. No damns were given that summer.

In preparation for 2012 players kept in shape, played in countless summer leagues and open runs. In 1999, the lockout literally killed some very good players careers. Too much time, money on their hands with little motivation. No true love for the game.

1999 the Spurs beat a NUMBER 8 seed out of the East. A Ewing-less Knicks team. Just stop and think about that for a second.

So he's a champion in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in my book. Regardless of the hate this gets me, I feel it's true. Spurs were vulture champions. They never kept it together every season. A true test of a champion is DEFENDING the crown. Repeating at least ONCE is a true test of greatness.

For all the shit people give Kobe, he was at his peak in 2006 and 2007 on some absolute shit supporting rosters. 2008 was the last season of his true prime. He was carrying the Lakers sans Gasol and had them at the #3 spot in the West. Once they got him Gasol, a legit 2nd option ... he took the Lakers to THREE straight Finals trips. How is this overlooked?

Duncan could NEVER do this. All while playing two consecutive summers, revamping Team USA's defense and making them intimidating dominating force v.s. the world again. Restoring our reputation and intimidation factor. Meanwhile, it gets swept under the rug when Duncan played like absolute ASS in the 2004 Olympics.

Kobe also in his MVP season of 2008, completely on his own MOLLY WHOPPED the defending champion Spurs led by Tim Duncan. Kobe in the last year of his prime, Duncan probably one season removed from his (akin to Kobe's 2009) ... and Kobe was clearly the best player in the series.

Kobe should have 2x MVPs given the usual standards (when they're not switching it up at the last minute) that would match Duncan. And he's got one more ring (two in my book)

I'm not saying Duncan's not an all-time great. I'm saying he's overrated, he's a center who was never more dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, hell prime KG and he gets more of a pass under the guise of "knowledgeable fans" than anyone else I can think of honestly.

Duncan's had plenty of roster and coaching help through out his career. Never won back to backs, never even reached back to back Finals. SA has been saving him and his minutes since 2010.

Meanwhile Kobe has been going full bore this entire time. And you have clowns on here saying Duncan's 2013 > Kobe's 2013. Like, are you kidding me? Duncan didn't have one performance comparable to the last 2 - 3 performances Kobe had to end his season before his poor body finally gave up on him.

I'm taking Kobe all day over Duncan. Call me an idiot, I don't care. You give him a soft ass euro center, and some decent defenders and he gave you three finals trips, back to back rings ... and if same said soft ass euro didn't pout in 2011 could've gave you another Finals trip.

Duncan hasn't done anything close to that. He's in the Finals every other, or every other two years. Not the same. And he's always had monumental help (maybe apart from 2003) ... I mean Tony Parker? A top 5 PG in the game season after season? Manu Ginobili? Often hyped as one of the best SGs ever on these boards. Coach Pop his ENTIRE career? Very nice luxuries. And he still didn't produce like Vino.

Stay mad.

:pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

Selective years and both players are in the Finals, so there's a mutual respect.

Anyways, O'Neal is more dominant than Duncan by regarding peak play.

[BoutPractice]

I'm a big Dirk fan, but LeBron's right on this one. Love it or hate it, Duncan has been the best player since Jordan retired, and LeBron is the only current player you can reasonably expect to exceed him (though I wouldn't count on it).

[dh144498]

I'm going to just come out and say it ...

Kobe > Duncan

Both career, and peak. For starters, his '99 is a bull shit ring. People want to talk about 2012 being an asterisk ring? '99 was the absolute worst season of basketball EVER.

Players got so fat and lazy, out of shape coming into it the season. No damns were given that summer.

In preparation for 2012 players kept in shape, played in countless summer leagues and open runs. In 1999, the lockout literally killed some very good players careers. Too much time, money on their hands with little motivation. No true love for the game.

1999 the Spurs beat a NUMBER 8 seed out of the East. A Ewing-less Knicks team. Just stop and think about that for a second.

So he's a champion in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in my book. Regardless of the hate this gets me, I feel it's true. Spurs were vulture champions. They never kept it together every season. A true test of a champion is DEFENDING the crown. Repeating at least ONCE is a true test of greatness.

For all the shit people give Kobe, he was at his peak in 2006 and 2007 on some absolute shit supporting rosters. 2008 was the last season of his true prime. He was carrying the Lakers sans Gasol and had them at the #3 spot in the West. Once they got him Gasol, a legit 2nd option ... he took the Lakers to THREE straight Finals trips. How is this overlooked?

Duncan could NEVER do this. All while playing two consecutive summers, revamping Team USA's defense and making them intimidating dominating force v.s. the world again. Restoring our reputation and intimidation factor. Meanwhile, it gets swept under the rug when Duncan played like absolute ASS in the 2004 Olympics.

Kobe also in his MVP season of 2008, completely on his own MOLLY WHOPPED the defending champion Spurs led by Tim Duncan. Kobe in the last year of his prime, Duncan probably one season removed from his (akin to Kobe's 2009) ... and Kobe was clearly the best player in the series.

Kobe should have 2x MVPs given the usual standards (when they're not switching it up at the last minute) that would match Duncan. And he's got one more ring (two in my book)

I'm not saying Duncan's not an all-time great. I'm saying he's overrated, he's a center who was never more dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, hell prime KG and he gets more of a pass under the guise of "knowledgeable fans" than anyone else I can think of honestly.

Duncan's had plenty of roster and coaching help through out his career. Never won back to backs, never even reached back to back Finals. SA has been saving him and his minutes since 2010.

Meanwhile Kobe has been going full bore this entire time. And you have clowns on here saying Duncan's 2013 > Kobe's 2013. Like, are you kidding me? Duncan didn't have one performance comparable to the last 2 - 3 performances Kobe had to end his season before his poor body finally gave up on him.

I'm taking Kobe all day over Duncan. Call me an idiot, I don't care. You give him a soft ass euro center, and some decent defenders and he gave you three finals trips, back to back rings ... and if same said soft ass euro didn't pout in 2011 could've gave you another Finals trip.

Duncan hasn't done anything close to that. He's in the Finals every other, or every other two years. Not the same. And he's always had monumental help (maybe apart from 2003) ... I mean Tony Parker? A top 5 PG in the game season after season? Manu Ginobili? Often hyped as one of the best SGs ever on these boards. Coach Pop his ENTIRE career? Very nice luxuries. And he still didn't produce like Vino.

Stay mad.

:pimp:

i scrolled from the bottom and I was like, "dam is this another Pauk post?"

:lol

well said, my friend.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

And you don't think Lebron is only saying this because he's facing Duncan in the finals and wouldn't be saying the same thing if he was facing Kobe in the finals? :confusedshrug:

If you count Shaq as part of the MJ generation.

You are left with I guess Kobe, Duncan, KG, and Dirk as part of the generation we are talking about...with Lebron and Durant being the next generation.

If that is the case. Duncan and Kobe deserve to be in the running for this debate.

I personally would take Duncan, but a good case could be made for both.

I would just wonder who would draft Kobe over Duncan knowing what we know about their careers. Just seems kind of obvious to me that in terms of basketball...nobody is taking the ego maniac Kobe that took some time to develop and was in part the cause of chemistry issues on championship caliber teams.

But that is just me. Give me the more consistent post player that is perhaps on the short list of best two way player ever.

[Rasheed1]

Tim Duncan is the f*ckin man.. :cheers:

there is no arguing what Lebron said.. Shaq was more dominant in his peek, but look where Shaq is now and look where TD is at now..

Tim Duncan is still the foundation to that team and perhaps the best Pf ever.. You cant hate on this guy..

he deserves his respect.. Lebron sees this and so do real BBall fans..

[jlip]

"If I just look at the last 15 years, he's probably been the most consistent, most dominant player that we've had as far as 15 years all together. He's won four titles, multiple All Stars, MVP, and so on and so on."

Not particularly seeing the problem here as there are only two choices, Duncan and Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

I'm going to just come out and say it ...

Kobe > Duncan

Both career, and peak. For starters, his '99 is a bull shit ring. People want to talk about 2012 being an asterisk ring? '99 was the absolute worst season of basketball EVER.

Players got so fat and lazy, out of shape coming into it the season. No damns were given that summer.

In preparation for 2012 players kept in shape, played in countless summer leagues and open runs. In 1999, the lockout literally killed some very good players careers. Too much time, money on their hands with little motivation. No true love for the game.

1999 the Spurs beat a NUMBER 8 seed out of the East. A Ewing-less Knicks team. Just stop and think about that for a second.

So he's a champion in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in my book. Regardless of the hate this gets me, I feel it's true. Spurs were vulture champions. They never kept it together every season. A true test of a champion is DEFENDING the crown. Repeating at least ONCE is a true test of greatness.

For all the shit people give Kobe, he was at his peak in 2006 and 2007 on some absolute shit supporting rosters. 2008 was the last season of his true prime. He was carrying the Lakers sans Gasol and had them at the #3 spot in the West. Once they got him Gasol, a legit 2nd option ... he took the Lakers to THREE straight Finals trips. How is this overlooked?

Duncan could NEVER do this. All while playing two consecutive summers, revamping Team USA's defense and making them intimidating dominating force v.s. the world again. Restoring our reputation and intimidation factor. Meanwhile, it gets swept under the rug when Duncan played like absolute ASS in the 2004 Olympics.

Kobe also in his MVP season of 2008, completely on his own MOLLY WHOPPED the defending champion Spurs led by Tim Duncan. Kobe in the last year of his prime, Duncan probably one season removed from his (akin to Kobe's 2009) ... and Kobe was clearly the best player in the series.

Kobe should have 2x MVPs given the usual standards (when they're not switching it up at the last minute) that would match Duncan. And he's got one more ring (two in my book)

I'm not saying Duncan's not an all-time great. I'm saying he's overrated, he's a center who was never more dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, hell prime KG and he gets more of a pass under the guise of "knowledgeable fans" than anyone else I can think of honestly.

Duncan's had plenty of roster and coaching help through out his career. Never won back to backs, never even reached back to back Finals. SA has been saving him and his minutes since 2010.

Meanwhile Kobe has been going full bore this entire time. And you have clowns on here saying Duncan's 2013 > Kobe's 2013. Like, are you kidding me? Duncan didn't have one performance comparable to the last 2 - 3 performances Kobe had to end his season before his poor body finally gave up on him.

I'm taking Kobe all day over Duncan. Call me an idiot, I don't care. You give him a soft ass euro center, and some decent defenders and he gave you three finals trips, back to back rings ... and if same said soft ass euro didn't pout in 2011 could've gave you another Finals trip.

Duncan hasn't done anything close to that. He's in the Finals every other, or every other two years. Not the same. And he's always had monumental help (maybe apart from 2003) ... I mean Tony Parker? A top 5 PG in the game season after season? Manu Ginobili? Often hyped as one of the best SGs ever on these boards. Coach Pop his ENTIRE career? Very nice luxuries. And he still didn't produce like Vino.

Stay mad.

:pimp:


No version of Kobe touches the impact 03 Duncan had. So I don't get the peak argument.

[Big#50]

Steve Kerr and Mike Fratello also said the same thing. Both have Tim in their top five of all time. Duncan best player since MJ. Best big since KAJ.

[longtime lurker]

If you count Shaq as part of the MJ generation.

You are left with I guess Kobe, Duncan, KG, and Dirk as part of the generation we are talking about...with Lebron and Durant being the next generation.

If that is the case. Duncan and Kobe deserve to be in the running for this debate.

I personally would take Duncan, but a good case could be made for both.

I would just wonder who would draft Kobe over Duncan knowing what we know about their careers. Just seems kind of obvious to me that in terms of basketball...nobody is taking the ego maniac Kobe that took some time to develop and was in part the cause of chemistry issues on championship caliber teams.

But that is just me. Give me the more consistent post player that is perhaps on the short list of best two way player ever.

Really that's all you have to say but your posts about Kobe always come off as some agenda driven bullshit that's filled with hyperbole and exaggeration. And the post I was referring to is RRR3 saying that he'd take Lebron's words over Dirks and Wades because Lebron has a higher basketball IQ(which is bullshit). Lebron would say the same thing about Kobe if he was facing him in the finals. It's just words that you guys love to get worked up over it

[SamuraiSWISH]

Duncan best player since MJ. Best big since KAJ.
Eww, hell no. Duncan imo isn't that much better than peak / prime David Robinson, that's how overrated he has become. He's better than Ewing, but he isn't better than Shaq or Hakeem, that much is blatantly obvious.

Not counting Shaq, since he played for many years in MJ's actual era.

For the true players that didn't play with MJ, or didn't blossom until well after he was gone.

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Wade
5) KG
6) Dirk

[RRR3]

And you don't think Lebron is only saying this because he's facing Duncan in the finals and wouldn't be saying the same thing if he was facing Kobe in the finals? :confusedshrug:
Idk what LeBron would say. I don't get why people are acting as if LBJ dissed Kobe, I believe LeBron said Kobe was better than him a few years ago. LeBron and Kobe always speak highly of each other they aren't enemies even of their fans are

[DMAVS41]

Really that's all you have to say but your posts about Kobe always come off as some agenda driven bullshit that's filled with hyperbole and exaggeration. And the post I was referring to is RRR3 saying that he'd take Lebron's words over Dirks and Wades because Lebron has a higher basketball IQ(which is bullshit). Lebron would say the same thing about Kobe if he was facing him in the finals. It's just words that you guys love to get worked up over it

Well. I have Duncan as like the 6th best player all time...and Kobe the 10th.

I'm not going to act like someone is crazy for taking Kobe. So that is what I said.

I wouldn't though. I'd take Duncan every single time.

And I don't care what Dirk or Lebron have to say. Doesn't impact my opinion one way or the other.

[RRR3]

Really that's all you have to say but your posts about Kobe always come off as some agenda driven bullshit that's filled with hyperbole and exaggeration. And the post I was referring to is RRR3 saying that he'd take Lebron's words over Dirks and Wades because Lebron has a higher basketball IQ(which is bullshit). Lebron would say the same thing about Kobe if he was facing him in the finals. It's just words that you guys love to get worked up over it
I don't take Wade Dirks or LeBrons opinions that seriously per se, was responding to deuce.

[DMAVS41]

Eww, hell no. Duncan imo isn't that much better than peak / prime David Robinson, that's how overrated he has become. He's better than Ewing, but he isn't better than Shaq or Hakeem, that much is blatantly obvious.

Not counting Shaq, since he played for many years in MJ's actual era.

For the true players that didn't play with MJ, or didn't blossom until well after he was gone.

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Wade
5) KG
6) Dirk

Hard to put Wade over Dirk and KG at this point...how his career goes over the next few years will determine that.

My list;

Duncan
Kobe
Lebron (will leap Kobe eventually)
Dirk
KG
Wade

[Shih508]

Duncan better from 97-07(01 is no where close), Kobe better from 08-13

FIXED. But from 08-13 LBJ is better than Kobe. Therefore, Kobe has never been the most dominate player in any year of his career...... top 20 all time at best

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hard to put Wade over Dirk and KG at this point...
Not for me, he was a better player than both.

His 2009 non MVP award is for certain better than Dirk played in 2007.

[BoutPractice]

At any rate, it's good that LeBron thinks so highly of him, as his opinion is likely to be valued a lot once he retires.

[Shih508]

bu bu bu bu but i thought "winning is a team accomplishment." So now Duncan is the most dominant because of the win% of his team?

And how is winning chips more spread apart better than winning consecutive chips? :wtf:
If i remember correctly, besides 2006, Shaq and Kobe were the reasons why the Spurs never got to repeat. 2000, 2004, 2008.

David Stern was the only reason Spurs never got to repeat.

[Big#50]

Eww, hell no. Duncan imo isn't that much better than peak / prime David Robinson, that's how overrated he has become. He's better than Ewing, but he isn't better than Shaq or Hakeem, that much is blatantly obvious.

Not counting Shaq, since he played for many years in MJ's actual era.

For the true players that didn't play with MJ, or didn't blossom until well after he was gone.

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Duncan
4) Wade
5) KG
6) Dirk
You lost me at David Robinson.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You lost me at David Robinson.
Sees screen name and obvious agenda, so your posts are taken with no credibility. You're a known SA Spur cheerleader.

[DMAVS41]

Not for me, he was a better player than both.

His 2009 non MVP award is for certain better than Dirk played in 2007.

I'd take Peak Wade over Peak Dirk as well, but I need to see how Wade's career goes over the next few years before I put him over Dirk and KG. Certainly possible, but this playoffs is something that is hurting Wade a bit.

[oh the horror]

David Stern was the only reason Spurs never got to repeat.



This has become literally the safe mode default answer when people here have absolutely nothing left.

[dh144498]

David Stern was the only reason Spurs never got to repeat.

let's see

00 lost to phoenix
:biggums:
so, in 04 Fisher hitting that shot was because of Stern? :wtf:

06 lost to to Mavs in 7 game series, good series, but Stern?

08, got destroyed by Kobe and the Lakers in a 5 game sweep, not Stern at all.

[Unbiased_one]

This has become literally the safe mode default answer when people here have absolutely nothing left.

Stern is obviously the only reason that the Bobcats didn't win a ring last year. And Kobe's injury was definitely his fault. And he's been hiding LeBron's positive tests all these years..

[Big#50]

Sees screen name and obvious agenda, so your posts are taken with no credibility. You're a known SA Spur cheerleader.
DROB is my favorite player of all time. But he is not the player Tim is. Not even close. Bball IQ, toughness, leadership, clutchness, all those things count.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Certainly possible, but this playoffs is something that is hurting Wade a bit.
Nah it's not hurting him. No more than Dirk not getting into the playoffs this season.

Or him getting bounced in his 2007 MVP season in the first round, or choking in the 2006 Finals. Those didn't alter his perception in the grand of scheme of things.

[BoutPractice]

I don't think that failure to defend your championship is worthy of note when you have multiple championships... especially within the context of an argument with another player who actually has less championships as the main guy.

[Shih508]

This has become literally the safe mode default answer when people here have absolutely nothing left.

You knew the TV rating when Spurs was in the finals? Like you know Stern wasnt rigging the NBA back in early 00's. Watch the game 6 of 02 WCF and game 7 of 00 WCF.

Stern been rigging this shit for god knows how long

[DMAVS41]

Nah it's not hurting him. No more than Dirk not getting into the playoffs this season.

Or him getting bounced in his 2007 MVP season in the first round, or choking in the 2006 Finals. Those didn't alter his perception in the grand of scheme of things.

You could come up with all the same stuff about Wade...his 07 and 08...his 09 weak showing in the playoffs...etc.

It's not about that stuff. It's about how his career goes beyond this year. He needs more longevity to pass guys like KG and Dirk...

Dirk, older and hobbled himself at age 33 with way more time in the league, was putting up 27/6/2 56% TS in the playoffs.

Wade is currently putting up 14/5/5 50% TS at age 31...

Just need to see how those next few years go...

[SamuraiSWISH]

You could come up with all the same stuff about Wade...his 07 and 08...his 09 weak showing in the playoffs...etc.
Exactly my point, so it really doesn't matter. We could do that all day long.

In regards to actual context, at least in 2007 and 2008 Wade was injured.

In 2009 had a supporting cast that was beyond weak. Dirk's never had to even deal with an average supporting cast let alone one that bad. Cuban has done WONDERS since 2000 for that franchise.

No where did Wade win an MVP on a 67 win team and lose in the first round to a number 8th seed. When he was alpha, with no help, his team was consistently the underdog. Dirk has performed dramatically below expectations before. Wade hasn't.


Dirk, older and hobbled himself at age 33 with way more time in the league, was putting up 27/6/2 56% TS in the playoffs.
He didn't play a single playoff game though, so your logic 2013 Wade > 2013 Dirk

That was the argument for 2013 Duncan > 2013 Kobe, correct?

[kurple]

Tim Duncan had all-star teammates in Parker and Ginobili, and excellent role players in a deep team. Kobe had just one all-star big, lack of team depth and inconsistent team defense. Kobe is better.
kobe also had Nash, Pau and Dwight

how did that work out?

[SamuraiSWISH]

kobe also had Nash, Pau and Dwight

how did that work out?
It's not like Nash was 39 years old and hurt for most of the season, along with being an even greater defensive liability than he was in his prime.

It's not like Gasol wasn't injured as well all season, and his offensive cohesion with Dwight doesn't mesh considering they're both centers and need to operate ont he low block. Gasol of course due to ego, refused to be a major impact player off the bench for the betterment of the team.

Dwight? 75% when playing HARD of the player he was in Orlando due to obvious physical limitations recovering from back surgery. And for most of the season he pouted and was passive aggressive because he was salty that Kobe alienated him and called the Lakers HIS team (Kobe's fault admittedly for bruising the clown's fragile ego)

So please, use some actual context before you go about making absolutely stupid arguments such as this overplayed one.

[WilliamsCollege]

Tim Duncan had all-star teammates in Parker and Ginobili, and excellent role players in a deep team. Kobe had just one all-star big, lack of team depth and inconsistent team defense. Kobe is better.

So prime Shaq is now "just" another random all-star? :biggums:

[#number6ix#]

I'm going to just come out and say it ...

Kobe > Duncan

Both career, and peak. For starters, his '99 is a bull shit ring. People want to talk about 2012 being an asterisk ring? '99 was the absolute worst season of basketball EVER.

Players got so fat and lazy, out of shape coming into it the season. No damns were given that summer.

In preparation for 2012 players kept in shape, played in countless summer leagues and open runs. In 1999, the lockout literally killed some very good players careers. Too much time, money on their hands with little motivation. No true love for the game.

1999 the Spurs beat a NUMBER 8 seed out of the East. A Ewing-less Knicks team. Just stop and think about that for a second.

So he's a champion in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in my book. Regardless of the hate this gets me, I feel it's true. Spurs were vulture champions. They never kept it together every season. A true test of a champion is DEFENDING the crown. Repeating at least ONCE is a true test of greatness.

For all the shit people give Kobe, he was at his peak in 2006 and 2007 on some absolute shit supporting rosters. 2008 was the last season of his true prime. He was carrying the Lakers sans Gasol and had them at the #3 spot in the West. Once they got him Gasol, a legit 2nd option ... he took the Lakers to THREE straight Finals trips. How is this overlooked?

Duncan could NEVER do this. All while playing two consecutive summers, revamping Team USA's defense and making them intimidating dominating force v.s. the world again. Restoring our reputation and intimidation factor. Meanwhile, it gets swept under the rug when Duncan played like absolute ASS in the 2004 Olympics.

Kobe also in his MVP season of 2008, completely on his own MOLLY WHOPPED the defending champion Spurs led by Tim Duncan. Kobe in the last year of his prime, Duncan probably one season removed from his (akin to Kobe's 2009) ... and Kobe was clearly the best player in the series.

Kobe should have 2x MVPs given the usual standards (when they're not switching it up at the last minute) that would match Duncan. And he's got one more ring (two in my book)

I'm not saying Duncan's not an all-time great. I'm saying he's overrated, he's a center who was never more dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, hell prime KG and he gets more of a pass under the guise of "knowledgeable fans" than anyone else I can think of honestly.

Duncan's had plenty of roster and coaching help through out his career. Never won back to backs, never even reached back to back Finals. SA has been saving him and his minutes since 2010.

Meanwhile Kobe has been going full bore this entire time. And you have clowns on here saying Duncan's 2013 > Kobe's 2013. Like, are you kidding me? Duncan didn't have one performance comparable to the last 2 - 3 performances Kobe had to end his season before his poor body finally gave up on him.

I'm taking Kobe all day over Duncan. Call me an idiot, I don't care. You give him a soft ass euro center, and some decent defenders and he gave you three finals trips, back to back rings ... and if same said soft ass euro didn't pout in 2011 could've gave you another Finals trip.

Duncan hasn't done anything close to that. He's in the Finals every other, or every other two years. Not the same. And he's always had monumental help (maybe apart from 2003) ... I mean Tony Parker? A top 5 PG in the game season after season? Manu Ginobili? Often hyped as one of the best SGs ever on these boards. Coach Pop his ENTIRE career? Very nice luxuries. And he still didn't produce like Vino.

Stay mad.

:pimp:
Man, this is a great post, I gotta give props where they are due... Everything you said is spot on... Both are great but Kobe's greater :cheers:

[sportjames23]

Samurai ethered nikkas with that post.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

Exactly my point, so it really doesn't matter. We could do that all day long.

In regards to actual context, at least in 2007 and 2008 Wade was injured.

In 2009 had a supporting cast that was beyond weak. Dirk's never had to even deal with an average supporting cast let alone one that bad. Cuban has done WONDERS since 2000 for that franchise.

No where did Wade win an MVP on a 67 win team and lose in the first round to a number 8th seed. When he was alpha, with no help, his team was consistently the underdog. Dirk has performed dramatically below expectations before. Wade hasn't.


He didn't play a single playoff game though, so your logic 2013 Wade > 2013 Dirk

That was the argument for 2013 Duncan > 2013 Kobe, correct?

I was talking about Dirk in 2012...and yes...he did play a playoff game.

This year? I'd definitely take Wade.

Again...you have to have a bit more longevity than Wade has had. And his play right now is serious cause for concern going forward.

Put it this way. If Wade retired today...I don't think you should put him over Dirk and KG.

If he plays a great finals and they win and he plays well a couple more years? Yep...I'll be right there with you.

[K Xerxes]

I'm going to just come out and say it ...

Kobe > Duncan

Both career, and peak. For starters, his '99 is a bull shit ring. People want to talk about 2012 being an asterisk ring? '99 was the absolute worst season of basketball EVER.

Players got so fat and lazy, out of shape coming into it the season. No damns were given that summer.

In preparation for 2012 players kept in shape, played in countless summer leagues and open runs. In 1999, the lockout literally killed some very good players careers. Too much time, money on their hands with little motivation. No true love for the game.

1999 the Spurs beat a NUMBER 8 seed out of the East. A Ewing-less Knicks team. Just stop and think about that for a second.

I don't see why people make such a fuss about lockout seasons as if every team other than the champions are affected by it. Why? The Spurs went through the same circumstances and scenarios as the rest of the league.

IIRC, Ewing was entering his late 30s in '99, and was clearly a shell of his former self.

They swept LAL in the WCSF with Duncan averaging 29-11, swept the Blazers and then took out the Knicks in 5 with Duncan averaging 27-14. I'm not sure why less credit should be taken away from him when he was great in the post season and led his team to a first championship in his second season. That is remarkable.


So he's a champion in 2003, 2005, and 2007 in my book. Regardless of the hate this gets me, I feel it's true. Spurs were vulture champions. They never kept it together every season. A true test of a champion is DEFENDING the crown. Repeating at least ONCE is a true test of greatness.

That desperation heave from Derek Fisher in game 5 of the '04 WCSF pretty much decided that series. If that didn't happen, Spurs would have been up 3-2. They were the defending champions and had HCA that series.

I hate playing what ifs, but that was a miracle shot. A shot you make 1/1000, especially if you're freaking Derek Fisher. We could be looking at a 3 peat. Spurs were still a brilliant team in '04. Circumstances change so quickly...

The WC back then was monstrous, to the point where advancing from the West from 99-05 meant that you would pretty much be guaranteed a ring (ONLY the Pistons were the a good team from the East and won it in 04). The WCF was the championship game, so I'm not surprised at all that Duncan didn't make the finals more often. You're comparing this to 08-10?


I'm not saying Duncan's not an all-time great. I'm saying he's overrated, he's a center who was never more dominant than Shaq, Hakeem, hell prime KG and he gets more of a pass under the guise of "knowledgeable fans" than anyone else I can think of honestly.

I can take him not being more dominant than Shaq and Hakeem, but KG, really? Sure, KG is great and universally underrated for lack of multiple rings and a FMVP, but Duncan is greater than KG.


Duncan's had plenty of roster and coaching help through out his career. Never won back to backs, never even reached back to back Finals. SA has been saving him and his minutes since 2010.

Does Duncan not get credit for keeping rosters and coaching stable throughout his career. Look at the roller coaster Kobe has been in, you don't think that's anything to do with his personality and attitude. You don't think it's a coincidence that EVERY SAS player in the last 15 years has been so appreciative of Duncan like a big brother. Hell, there is nobody more thankful on this earth for Duncan than DRob.

Kobe had Phil Jackson and Duncan had Popovich. Both are widely considered as two of the greatest coaches of all time. Who had the more drama? Who had the fallouts? Who had the publicised rifts? Which coach had to leave for a year?


Meanwhile Kobe has been going full bore this entire time. And you have clowns on here saying Duncan's 2013 > Kobe's 2013. Like, are you kidding me? Duncan didn't have one performance comparable to the last 2 - 3 performances Kobe had to end his season before his poor body finally gave up on him.

While I'm not saying Duncan has been better than Kobe this season, I'd say it's close. It's not just about stats which Kobe obviously wins, it's about the defense. Kobe has been horrible, horrible this season on defense.


I'm taking Kobe all day over Duncan. Call me an idiot, I don't care. You give him a soft ass euro center, and some decent defenders and he gave you three finals trips, back to back rings ... and if same said soft ass euro didn't pout in 2011 could've gave you another Finals trip.

That soft ass Euro was far better than any of Duncan's team mates in '03 and arguably in '05.

[Chrono90]

Can't never say Duncan's not great

But Kobe was more dominant.

[SCdac]

LOL Kobe this season averaged .28% from the three point line one month, then the next month averaged .27% from beyond...

Not impressed with his chucking this season (obviously chasing scoring records) for a team that barely made the playoffs.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

The fact that a relentless Kobe troll admits it's pretty close means it's not close at all and Duncan was definitely the most dominant player. Thanks.
:lol

[Noob Saibot]

Duncan will be in LeBron's top 5 all time team.

[CAstill]

I don't see why people make such a fuss about lockout seasons as if every team other than the champions are affected by it. Why? The Spurs went through the same circumstances and scenarios as the rest of the league.

IIRC, Ewing was entering his late 30s in '99, and was clearly a shell of his former self.

They swept LAL in the WCSF with Duncan averaging 29-11, swept the Blazers and then took out the Knicks in 5 with Duncan averaging 27-14. I'm not sure why less credit should be taken away from him when he was great in the post season and led his team to a first championship in his second season. That is remarkable.


That desperation heave from Derek Fisher in game 5 of the '04 WCSF pretty much decided that series. If that didn't happen, Spurs would have been up 3-2. They were the defending champions and had HCA that series.

I hate playing what ifs, but that was a miracle shot. A shot you make 1/1000, especially if you're freaking Derek Fisher. We could be looking at a 3 peat. Spurs were still a brilliant team in '04. Circumstances change so quickly...

The WC back then was monstrous, to the point where advancing from the West from 99-05 meant that you would pretty much be guaranteed a ring (ONLY the Pistons were the a good team from the East and won it in 04). The WCF was the championship game, so I'm not surprised at all that Duncan didn't make the finals more often. You're comparing this to 08-10?



I can take him not being more dominant than Shaq and Hakeem, but KG, really? Sure, KG is great and universally underrated for lack of multiple rings and a FMVP, but Duncan is greater than KG.



Does Duncan not get credit for keeping rosters and coaching stable throughout his career. Look at the roller coaster Kobe has been in, you don't think that's anything to do with his personality and attitude. You don't think it's a coincidence that EVERY SAS player in the last 15 years has been so appreciative of Duncan like a big brother. Hell, there is nobody more thankful on this earth for Duncan than DRob.

Kobe had Phil Jackson and Duncan had Popovich. Both are widely considered as two of the greatest coaches of all time. Who had the more drama? Who had the fallouts? Who had the publicised rifts? Which coach had to leave for a year?



While I'm not saying Duncan has been better than Kobe this season, I'd say it's close. It's not just about stats which Kobe obviously wins, it's about the defense. Kobe has been horrible, horrible this season on defense.


That soft ass Euro was far better than any of Duncan's team mates in '03 and arguably in '05.

No he wasn't. Drob was very comparable if not better. He was a better defender and a stronger presence on the team period.

Kobe&Drob>>>Kobe&Gasol

[miller-time]

Can't never say Duncan's not great

But Kobe was more dominant.

How? He won two championships as the guy, Duncan won three. Duncan has one 2 regular season MVPs to Kobe's 1.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/976571_427550357352413_1219509819_o.jpg

If more dominant means doing less as the man, then yes Kobe is more dominant.

[Carbine]

Timmy has four titles as the man. He was clearly the most important player to their success back in '07, regardless of who got FMVP.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

LOL Kobe this season averaged .28% from the three point line one month, then the next month averaged .27% from beyond...

Not impressed with his chucking this season (obviously chasing scoring records) for a team that barely made the playoffs.
lol @ this clown nitpicking. Kobe didnt impress you this season BECAUSE of his 3 pt percentage? Anything else or just the 3 pt percentage? He almost single handily willed his team into the play-offs, playing entire games with no rest, 17 seasons in, but man, that 3 pt percentage...

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

i'm old school, i got too much respect for the spurs and tim duncan to make a bunch of back handed comments like some of these Spurs fans are making in this thread. it's been a honor watching both td and kobe play. i'll tell you one thing tho, mvp's don't mean sht to me considering shaq only has 1.

[SCdac]

lol @ this clown nitpicking. Kobe didnt impress you this season BECAUSE of his 3 pt percentage? Anything else or just the 3 pt percentage? He almost single handily willed his team into the play-offs, playing entire games with no rest, 17 seasons in, but man, that 3 pt percentage...

I cited some his %'s as evidence of his chucking, what's hard to understand. I'm just not impressed by some who's mentality is to score first and win second. Willed his team into the playoffs lol... dude their team was stacked.

[STATUTORY]

I cited some his %'s as evidence of his chucking, what's hard to understand. I'm just not impressed by some who's mentality is to score first and win second. Willed his team into the playoffs lol... dude their team was stacked.

mouthbreathing ESPN top 10 highlight expert spotted

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

mouthbreathing ESPN top 10 highlight expert spotted
:lol

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

I cited some his %'s as evidence of his chucking, what's hard to understand. I'm just not impressed by some who's mentality is to score first and win second. Willed his team into the playoffs lol... dude their team was stacked.
yeah, kobe doesn't give 2 fcks about winning. (don't bother responding, i'm not interested in going back and fourth with a clown)

[booonkers]

Duncan wasn't even considered the best player on his team this year. And now you're going to hold Kobe's injury against him? :roll:
All NBA First Team
All NBA Defensive Second Team:hammerhead:

[SamuraiSWISH]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/976571_427550357352413_1219509819_o.jpg

MJ shatters EVERYONE on that list. It's like combining Kobe's chips and LeBron's individual dominance.

GOAT

:pimp:

[Deuce Bigalow]

How? He won two championships as the guy, Duncan won three. Duncan has one 2 regular season MVPs to Kobe's 1.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/976571_427550357352413_1219509819_o.jpg

If more dominant means doing less as the man, then yes Kobe is more dominant.
Are you really using MVPs? Steve Nash was better than Kobe in 06? Dirk better than Kobe in 07? Seriously man these people with their Regular season MVP argument... What more could Kobe do to win 06 MVP? He averaged the most PPG since Jordan in the 80s. In 07 he had 10 50 point games. That is more than anyone other than Wilt to have in a single season. 38 ppg after the allstar break too. Let's be honest, Kobe should have been the MVP in 06-08.

[Deuce Bigalow]

All NBA First Team
All NBA Defensive Second Team:hammerhead:
It's not like Parker had to battle Kobe and CP3 for a guard spot on the All-NBA First Team...while Duncan's competition was Fat Gasol and injured Dwight for center spot...

[I.R.Beast]

getting his excuse ready for when miami loses

[booonkers]

It's not like Parker had to battle Kobe and CP3 for a guard spot on the All-NBA First Team...while Duncan's competition was Fat Gasol and injured Dwight for center spot...
who'd you pick between the two if you can only pick one? A PF/C who anchors an elite defensive team and can score points or a PG who can score at will?

[Deuce Bigalow]

who'd you pick between the two if you can only pick one? A PF/C who anchors an elite defensive team and can score points or a PG who can score at will?
The first one.

[miller-time]

Are you really using MVPs? Steve Nash was better than Kobe in 06? Dirk better than Kobe in 07? Seriously man these people with their Regular season MVP argument... What more could Kobe do to win 06 MVP? He averaged the most PPG since Jordan in the 80s. In 07 he had 10 50 point games. That is more than anyone other than Wilt to have in a single season. 38 ppg after the allstar break too. Let's be honest, Kobe should have been the MVP in 06-08.

MVP is the MVP, it is not "the best individual player in the league award." Kobe did suffer from being on a bad team sure, but being the best player on a bad team is not reason to be awarded an MVP. What exactly was Kobe doing better than Iverson? He was shooting 2 shots more per game gaining only 2ppg more, and making less assists. What more could Iverson do? Who cares is the answer. To add, the Lakers lost in the first round to the Suns, obviously post-season, but would they have have gone down if the Suns didn't have Nash? This is a team that wasn't even in the playoffs the season before Nash arrived?

The MVP might be a contentious award, but it isn't given to players that are completely unworthy of its namesake.

[Purch]

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/tim-duncan-kobe-MJ-lebron.jpg

[played0ut]

lol, you shit disturber

[DonDadda59]

http://nbatitlechase.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/tim-duncan-kobe-MJ-lebron.jpg

LePeople'sElbow on some nudging his accolades bullshit to make him look better :coleman:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Maybe he was confused and thought the questions was

"Who has dominated you the most the past 15 years?"

[Orlando Magic]

http://superhero.wingzero.tw/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/JFEB54q.jpg

[AnaheimLakers24]

kobes better

[stalkerforlife]

Not that I totally disagree, but this is a man that thinks Dr. J is top 4 all time.

[rmt]

http://superhero.wingzero.tw/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/JFEB54q.jpg

Did you forget one of Duncan's championships and one of Lebron's championships and FMVPs?

As far as the Kobe vs Duncan debate:

Peak 2003 Duncan > any Kobe. People say Lebron can't take such a young, inexperienced Cavs team to a championship this year. That's what Duncan did with 2nd year Parker and SJax and rookie Manu (as his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options). And no, Pop was not anywhere near GOAT coach at that time.

Don't think that Kobe has any argument where consistency is concerned. Spurs have iirc 70% win percentage since Duncan - highest ever in the history of the NBA.

The difference between them to me is their leadership. No one questions Kobe's individual skill, but basketball is a TEAM sport and how they each affect their team mates is their big difference. Duncan allows others to grow and develop. He does only what's necessary to win. When the games are close or they're losing, Duncan usually has high scoring games (Pop goes to him a lot). When they blow teams out, he usually doesn't score much - just does the defense and lets others shine offensively.

Kobe's ego is such that he has to be the man - he has to have the spotlight on him - doesn't allow others to grow, develop or shine.

As for the criticisms that Duncan's just a role player, he's still the most important player on the Spurs (because of anchoring the defense) - led them in minutes played and PER for both regular season and playoffs this year. I see Leonard as taking over in importance since he plays both sides of the court (unlike Parker). Hopefully, with Leonard's emergence, Duncan can play another 2 years and still contend for titles.

[Dragic4Life]

He's right.

No offense to Shaq.

[Mure]

Duncan > Kobe, and it isn't close.

[Dragic4Life]

Duncan > Kobe, and it isn't close.
this.

[Anaximandro1]

Duncan is a once in a lifetime player.



Extra gear for the playoffs in his prime years

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-p9aMxWLQ_i0/U8p_EfkKHXI/AAAAAAAADXE/CXUCjXXUEFM/s1600/1.jpg



Consistency for nearly two decades

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7rQGPAOAwlA/U8p_Ed7YixI/AAAAAAAADXI/-mgY-0Fv2KE/s1600/2.jpg

[BoutPractice]

I would agree, but the fact that Duncan's Spurs utterly destroyed his teams twice would make him naturally biased on this topic.

[Beatlezz]

Kobe > Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lil' Lambo

[GimmeThat]

he's that player who doesn't just go away after 15 years alright.

granted, his numbers weren't bad in the last finals.