LeBron's legacy in the line

[sc19]

It definitely is. Having a 1/4 Finals record in his resume is not gonna look good. Top 50 discussion indeed, but not top 10.

[Screamingdoom]

Agreed, it would be hard to put him in the top 10 with a record like this. But even if he does lose he may go on to get another 1 or 2.

[TrueRob]

Losing two Finals with HCA will look pretty bad on LeBron's resume.

[9erempiree]

He never had a chance for the top 10 because for joining his rivals.

[DFish24]

Agreed. Someone who goes 1/4 in the NBA Finals while hand picking his teammates is not Top 10 worthy.

[Goldrush25]

We're talking legacy after game 1?

This board jumps to conclusions every time the Heat lose a game.

[#number6ix#]

We are gonna have to wait to see how his career turns out b4 we discuss his legacy... but 1-4 is not a good look

[WeGetRing2012]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg

[sc19]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg
:applause:

[Ne 1]

Even if he loses, I'd say he's still in the same class with Moses Malone, Jerry West, Kevin Garnett, Julius Erving and Oscar Robertson. That isn't bad company at all. But yeah, his legacy will take a hit if he doesn't deliver a championship and it will be become very questionable if he can ever be in the discussion with the top tier all-time greats.

[RidonKs]

lol really?

nobody will remember this shit fifteen years down the line. i mean he'll have to win a few more times of course, but losing three times in the finals won't be remembered. MAKING the finals seven or eight or nine times will be remembered. and if his career pans out and he collects rings and trophies as i can only assume he will, these losses will be chocked up to some other circumstance. too young in cleveland. dirk's time was due. wade and bosh didn't step up. no true center to battle in the middle.

even if he loses this series, lebron will come out fine in the churn of history, you're crazy to think otherwise

[Boomerang]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg
wow.

[HardwoodLegend]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg

LeBron's hardware is fugazi storebought.

[NumberSix]

We're talking legacy after game 1?

This board jumps to conclusions every time the Heat lose a game.
Yup. And after Miami wins game 2, we'll be back to Miami cant be beat and the most stacked team of all time.

:roll:

[SpurrDurr]

It definitely is. Having a 1/4 Finals record in his resume is not gonna look good. Top 50 discussion indeed, but not top 10.

This series is far from being over, but if he's gonna choke again and lose another finals i wouldn't be worried only for his legacy but also for his mental health.

He's by far the most hated player in NBA and he's under a lot of pressure, another loss will prolly crush him.

[aj1987]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg
At 28, that's pretty incredible.

[Pacquiao]

At 28, that's pretty incredible.

at 28 possibly having 1-3 record in the finals is totally embarassing.

[Magic 32]

At 28, that's pretty incredible.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7747/magicjohnson3.jpg

[K Xerxes]

His legacy was on the line in 2012.

[fozi]

You guys hope on conclusions really fast .. If he loses, it hurts his prime momentum, but that doesnt mean he cant get 2 more championships.. which i guess its the max he can get, unless he join another forces, but hey no one knows..


i go for Spurs 4-1.


As much as i dislike how he cares about stats and shot decision ,if any, he's one of a kind...


Even if he wins this year, he's not in my top ten , but rather 12th or 11th.

[Magic 32]

As much as i dislike how he cares about stats and shot decision ,if any, he's one of a kind...



The finals always seems to magnify and punish the weakness of any player.

Kobe's fg, Lebron's mental stability.......

[UtahJazzFan88]

lol really?

nobody will remember this shit fifteen years down the line. i mean he'll have to win a few more times of course, but losing three times in the finals won't be remembered. MAKING the finals seven or eight or nine times will be remembered. and if his career pans out and he collects rings and trophies as i can only assume he will, these losses will be chocked up to some other circumstance. too young in cleveland. dirk's time was due. wade and bosh didn't step up. no true center to battle in the middle.

even if he loses this series, lebron will come out fine in the churn of history, you're crazy to think otherwise

Pretty much this, I'm not even a LeBron fan.

[SacJB Shady]

Lebron is too talented to lose to The Spurs. The Spurs are so last decade

[Dragonyeuw]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg

Damn, when you put it like that....

[aj1987]

at 28 possibly having 1-3 record in the finals is totally embarassing.
Doesn't Jerry West have a 1-9 Finals record? He's considered to be a top 15 player. I don't see how Lebron can to any worse than that.

[allball]

It would be 1-3. This is his 4th finals appearance. Lot of ball to be played.

[Boomerang]

It would be 1-3. This is his 4th finals appearance. Lot of ball to be played.
...............................
1 win 3 losses yes, but that's not how normal people do math.:wtf:
1/4 is the correct way to put it.

[Akhenaten]

Doesn't Jerry West have a 1-9 Finals record? He's considered to be a top 15 player. I don't see how Lebron can to any worse than that.

Beat me to it, but you must understand that in those days they played barefoot in drafty gyms so it was much more difficult to shoot. Also the game was MUCH more physical back then, basketball back then was more akin to modern day MMA than basketball.

It is true that West played with some the all-time greatest players and only won once in 9 Finals and played like shit in the one Finals he did win but he's still the a top 2-3 SG ever I don't care how much he lost.








:rolleyes:

[lilgodfather1]

...............................
1 win 3 losses yes, but that's not how normal people do math.:wtf:
1/4 is the correct way to put it.
Either way is correct, but 1-4 is not.

Also regular season records aren't 45/82, they're 45-37.

[coin24]

Either way is correct, but 1-4 is not.

Also regular season records aren't 45/82, they're 45-37.


I see it as 1-4.. 1 from 4 attempts. Like a boxscore..

[lilgodfather1]

I see it as 1-4.. 1 from 4 attempts. Like a boxscore..
Fair enough. Whoever is in charge of this stuff needs to pull his head out of Brad Pitt's ass, and tell us the universal way.

[dh144498]

It definitely is. Having a 1/4 Finals record in his resume is not gonna look good. Top 50 discussion indeed, but not top 10.

:applause:

[ReturnofJPR]

I've been saying all year long...

LeBron won't sniff Top 10...ever. He needs a 3-peat to do so.

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

[dh144498]

I've been saying all year long...

LeBron won't sniff Top 10...ever. He needs a 3-peat to do so.

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

:applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause:


















:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


lebron stans won't like this. :lol

[Ne 1]

Doesn't Jerry West have a 1-9 Finals record? He's considered to be a top 15 player. I don't see how Lebron can to any worse than that.

True, but you have to look at other circumstances. Jerry West lost to Bill Russell's Celtics in the Finals 6 times, Russell won 11 rings in 13 years and the only time Russell ever lost in the Finals was the 1958 series against St. Louis when he went down with a severe ankle injury in Game 3. The other Finals series he lost? The Lakers probably should've beat the Knicks the first time in '70, and you could possibly argue the second time in '73. He won against the Knicks in '72 of course though. Also take into account that the '70s was a decade of parity with 8 different championship teams and nobody won back-to-back titles.


As far as LeBron, I give him somewhat of a pass for losing the 2007 Finals, I don't think anybody expected the Cavs to beat the Spurs, but the thing is that he averaged 22/7/7, but he shot 35% from the field, 20% on 3's and 69% from the line while averaging 6 turnovers per game and on 23 shots per game. That's horrendous for a player of James' caliber especially considering the fact that his team was swept. That series was so far below what you expect from LeBron. We all know about 2011, Miami was heavily favored to win and LeBron was so bad that he actually cost his team the championship. It's not just like he played sub-par or something...he was so bad that people, to this day, still can't figure it out. He wasn't playing injured. It was just him going ghost on both ends of the floor. It looked like he just curled up, went into an shell and shut it down after Wade yelled at him in game 3. If he loses again this year, it won't be a good look. Especially if he performs underwhelmingly and continues to play passive and unassertive like he did in the 4th quarter last night. LeBron is the MVP of the league, 28 years old and if a 37 year old, 16th year in the league Duncan continues to have more impact on games than him, it's not a good look and that's what will cause the 1/4 Finals talk to be brought up when compared to the top tier greats.

Also with that said, Jerry West isn't compared to the likes of Jordan/Bird/Kobe/Magic like LeBron has been.

[ReturnofJPR]

:applause: :applause:
:applause: :applause:


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


lebron stans won't like this. :lol


That's why nobody likes the cHEAT! They think they can buy a ring, the only one they have has an *. The only reason they are holding up 1 in their team photo is because that's the only chip they'll get. And it was a shortened season, 82 game grinds speak for themselves.

http://thephoenixmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Miami-Heat-NBA-champion-2012-516x340.jpg

See?

They all have 1 finger up because that's the only chip they'll ever get.

Miami, LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. these clowns walk around like they are Magic's Lakers or Bird's Celtics. Bron is a silverspoon superstar. He's never earned anything. He's just been given praise and attention because the league and the media had to fill the mammoth hole left when MJ left...

[beastee]

I've been saying all year long...

LeBron won't sniff Top 10...ever. He needs a 3-peat to do so.

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal

That list is basically perfect. But man...Larry Bird and Lebron are 10a and 10b for me.

[miles berg]

Kobe & LeBron are 10a & 10b.

[dh144498]

Kobe & LeBron are 10a & 10b.

:wtf:

[ReturnofJPR]

Kobe & LeBron are 10a & 10b.


LeBum only has 1 ring and it's like half of a ring because of the * season. That's not enough to be amongst the All Time Greats, as far as Top 10 goes.

[game3524]

Yes, it will hurt his legacy.

1-4 in the Finals is just not going to cut it. MJ is 6-0 in the Finals, Kobe 5-2, Duncan 4-0 etc. It is really hard to put him in the top ten with a potential 1-4 record.

[Vienceslav]

I've been saying all year long...

LeBron won't sniff Top 10...ever. He needs a 3-peat to do so.

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Oscar Robertson
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Shaquille O'Neal
I don't know how I feel about Robertson in top 10 and Hakeem not in top 10.
I know the list becomes very center heavy if you put Hakeem on, but the position is just that important.

[kaiteng]

He still has a lot of times to collect some more.

[HardwoodLegend]

Yes, it will hurt his legacy.

1-4 in the Finals is just not going to cut it. MJ is 6-0 in the Finals, Kobe 5-2, Duncan 4-0 etc. It is really hard to put him in the top ten with a potential 1-4 record.

It will be 1-3 if you're doing it record-wise.

The 1/4 is percentage-wise.

[HardwoodLegend]

I see it as 1-4.. 1 from 4 attempts. Like a boxscore..

If you're going to use a hyphen, it has to be record-wise making it 1-3.

That's just needlessly confusing and misleading when talking about Finals, because it's almost always discussed in terms of record not percentages. If you want to be original and different, make it 1/4.

[Vienceslav]

Yes, it will hurt his legacy.

1-4 in the Finals is just not going to cut it. MJ is 6-0 in the Finals, Kobe 5-2, Duncan 4-0 etc. It is really hard to put him in the top ten with a potential 1-4 record.
I see your point, but in this scenario he's basically being punished for getting to the Finals from the weaker conference and getting swept by the Spurs, if he was in the west and went out in the 1st round every year and now was 1-1 in the finals potentially going 2-1 it would be a different story.
At this point the Jordan argument is probably dead, but will there ever be a player who will be able to live up to the Jordan standard?

[2010splash]

Are you crazy? He's already locked into the top 10 if he retires. Winning 4 MVP's and having one of the most dominant playoff runs ever en route to a title (2012) assured him of that. Kobe only has 1 MVP and far more Finals meltdowns and most people have him in the top 10 (though he may be bumped out if LeBron wins it all this year). Hakeem only has 1 MVP and everyone has him top 10.

If LeBron wins it all (even if he doesn't) here is the top 10 (not in order):

Unquestionably top 10: Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Duncan

Next tier: Bird, Kobe, Hakeem

As you can see, one of Bird, Kobe or Hakeem will be kicked out of the top 10. It comes down to either Kobe or Hakeem.

[2010splash]

List of 4-time MVP winners: Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, LeBron. Anyone using championships as a reason for keeping LeBron outside the top 10 just doesn't understand basketball. If Kobe was the one drafted onto the Cavs and LeBron got traded to prime Shaq's team as a rookie, LeBron would probably have 5-6 titles by now and Kobe has none. What was LeBron supposed to do, lead Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao to a championship? Lmao!!! Use some common sense.

[DMAVS41]

Depends on what that means.

He's a sure fire top 11 player of all time...even if he retired after this series.

So no matter what, he's one of the greatest players of all time by any standard or measure.

Now...if he wants to get into that elite top 6 or even higher...I just don't see how he can lose this series. Mainly because Duncan would just be so far ahead of him at that point. 5 titles for Duncan and 16 great years with no playoff meltdowns and a title with some of the worst help ever in 03...just going to be hard for Lebron to ever match that...

So I'd say that 7th all time is his ceiling if the Heat lose this series.

And jumping the likes of Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, and Kobe is hardly a lock with another finals loss. The Heat are getting worse and if the Heat lose this series it either means Bosh/Wade were beyond terrible...or Lebron couldn't take over.

Both would be very bad signs of things to come...

[Ne 1]

Are you crazy? He's already locked into the top 10 if he retires. Winning 4 MVP's and having one of the most dominant playoff runs ever en route to a title (2012) assured him of that. Kobe only has 1 MVP and far more Finals meltdowns and most people have him in the top 10 (though he may be bumped out if LeBron wins it all this year). Hakeem only has 1 MVP and everyone has him top 10.

If LeBron wins it all (even if he doesn't) here is the top 10 (not in order):

Unquestionably top 10: Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Duncan

Next tier: Bird, Kobe, Hakeem

As you can see, one of Bird, Kobe or Hakeem will be kicked out of the top 10. It comes down to either Kobe or Hakeem.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4620615&postcount=63

[dh144498]

Are you crazy? He's already locked into the top 10 if he retires. Winning 4 MVP's and having one of the most dominant playoff runs ever en route to a title (2012) assured him of that. Kobe only has 1 MVP and far more Finals meltdowns and most people have him in the top 10 (though he may be bumped out if LeBron wins it all this year). Hakeem only has 1 MVP and everyone has him top 10.

If LeBron wins it all (even if he doesn't) here is the top 10 (not in order):

Unquestionably top 10: Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Duncan

Next tier: Bird, Kobe, Hakeem

As you can see, one of Bird, Kobe or Hakeem will be kicked out of the top 10. It comes down to either Kobe or Hakeem.

:roll:
:biggums:

If Lebron were to retire today, he would not be in the top 10. He's just floating around 15 right now if you were being generous. Most people have him 15-20.
only a lebron stan would say otherwise.

[DMAVS41]

:roll:
:biggums:

If Lebron were to retire today, he would not be in the top 10. He's just floating around 15 right now if you were being generous. Most people have him 15-20.
only a lebron stan would say otherwise.

I'm not a Lebron stan and Lebron is clearly the 11th best player of all time.

Please tell me how West and Moses and god knows who else you would list are better than Lebron.

[NumberSix]

I'm not a Lebron stan and Lebron is clearly the 11th best player of all time.

Please tell me how West and Moses and god knows who else you would list are better than Lebron.
Lol. Fffffffcuk no. He's much higher than that. #4 at worst. There have not been 10 better players. You can make your silly legacy arguments, but LeBron isn't only the 11th best player. :roll:

[dh144498]

I'm not a Lebron stan and Lebron is clearly the 11th best player of all time.

Please tell me how West and Moses and god knows who else you would list are better than Lebron.

those 2, Dr J, Oscar R.

having him at 15th is way more reasonable than having lebron stans having him at 1-4.... :wtf:

try arguing against them.

[2010splash]

:roll:
:biggums:

If Lebron were to retire today, he would not be in the top 10. He's just floating around 15 right now if you were being generous. Most people have him 15-20.
only a lebron stan would say otherwise.
:wtf: :facepalm

You've completely lost it. You are either a Kobe stan or a troll if you honestly believe a goddamn 4-time MVP winner is outside the top 10. Either way, logic cannot be used against your kind.

LeBron's currently sitting at probably 7-8 all-time and with another title moves up to top 4 all time. As high as 2 and no lower than 4. LOL at you bringing up Oscar, Dr. J, Moses etc. They aren't in LeBron's league.

I've been waiting for people to give me a good explanation for why 4-time MVP + 2-time champion Wilt Chamberlain is in the "Immortal 5" all-time and yet 4-time MVP + 2-time champion LeBron James (if he wins this year) would merely crack the top 10. Stupidity.

[dh144498]

:wtf: :facepalm

You've completely lost it. You are either a Kobe stan or a troll if you honestly believe a goddamn 4-time MVP winner is outside the top 10. Either way, logic cannot be used against your kind.

LeBron's currently sitting at probably 7-8 all-time and with another title moves up to top 4 all time. As high as 2 and no lower than 4. LOL at you bringing up Oscar, Dr. J, Moses etc. They aren't in LeBron's league.

I've been waiting for people to give me a good explanation for why 4-time MVP + 2-time champion Wilt Chamberlain is in the "Immortal 5" all-time and yet 4-time MVP + 2-time champion LeBron James (if he wins this year) would merely crack the top 10. Stupidity.

i like Kobe, but i'm still objective.
anyway, Wilt Chamberlain is overrated, but then again, he does avg 30-23-4 over his career. I have him way lower because he's a career playoff choker. Lebron's 2011 failure can't just be ignored. It's THE worst performance from any all time great player, EVER. If it weren't for that, he'd probably be 12 or so, right now.
another chip this year, depending on his performance, will bump him to 10 but that's really as far as it goes.

[Goldrush25]

That's why nobody likes the cHEAT! They think they can buy a ring, the only one they have has an *. The only reason they are holding up 1 in their team photo is because that's the only chip they'll get. And it was a shortened season, 82 game grinds speak for themselves.

They don't think they can buy a ring, they did buy a ring.:oldlol:

And who doesn't buy a ring? No one wins a title without getting outside help via free agents or trade. Those players cost money too.

[2010splash]

i like Kobe, but i'm still objective.
anyway, Wilt Chamberlain is overrated, but then again, he does avg 30-23-4 over his career. I have him way lower because he's a career playoff choker. Lebron's 2011 failure can't just be ignored. It's THE worst performance from any all time great player, EVER. If it weren't for that, he'd probably be 12 or so, right now.
another chip this year, depending on his performance, will bump him to 10 but that's really as far as it goes.
Ok, well pretty much everyone else has Wilt in the top 5 all-time. And if you think his stats are impressive, imagine what LeBron "walking triple double in the modern era" James would put up in the 60's. dude would average 40/18/12 easily. LeBron wins any argument involving stats against any player.

And no, you're blowing 2011 way out of proportion. Kobe had SEVERAL (not just one) worse Finals performances. Bird, Magic and Kareem also had more than one Finals choke. As did Wilt. 4 MVP's = dominance. Repeating championships = dominance. If Wilt is in the top 5 (and everyone has him in the top 5), LeBron eaaasssily is in the top 5 with a title.

Hakeem is someone who is barely top 10 all-time. He has 1 MVP. LeBron has 4x as many MVP's and if he wins a title this year absolutely blows away Hakeem. Thus, ranking him in "the top 10" only is just a gross and silly underrating of him.

[sportjames23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[ganja0710]

His legacy will be untouchable when its all said and done.

4 MVP's BOYYYYY

[sportjames23]

Lol. Fffffffcuk no. He's much higher than that. #4 at worst. There have not been 10 better players. You can make your silly legacy arguments, but LeBron isn't only the 11th best player. :roll:


Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan


Are all better than Lebron. Lebron ain't #4 All-Time.

[NumberSix]

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan


Are all better than Lebron. Lebron ain't #4 All-Time.
Wilt, Jordan and Shaq you might have a case. Everyone else, flat out no.

[dh144498]

Wilt, Jordan and Shaq you might have a case. Everyone else, flat out no.

i think i already proved that Bird > lebron in a thread made a couple weeks ago. Most people also agreed.

[2010splash]

i think i already proved that Bird > lebron in a thread made a couple weeks ago. Most people also agreed.
Yeah, you "proved" that a guy who was slower, weaker, a worse scorer, worse passer, much less efficient, a faaar worse defender with clearly worse stats was some how a better player. The hilarity continues!!!!!:roll: :applause: LeBron is easily top 4 all time with another title. Don't strain yourself coming up with twisted logic to convince yourself otherwise.

[2010splash]

LeBron leads Damon Jones, Boobie Gibson, Andy Varejao, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and company to the Finals. A few years later he leads a not so different cast with Mo Williams to 66 and 61 wins. Bird needs McHale/Parish, DJ, and just an all around silly stacked team to win anything of relevance. His defense is also LOL-worthy compared to LeBron. Yet Bird > LeBron?:wtf: :oldlol:

[dh144498]

Yeah, you "proved" that a guy who was slower, weaker, a worse scorer, worse passer, much less efficient, a faaar worse defender with clearly worse stats was some how a better player. The hilarity continues!!!!!:roll: :applause: LeBron is easily top 4 all time with another title. Don't strain yourself coming up with twisted logic to convince yourself otherwise.

:biggums:
Bird is better than Lebron on all those things. And he's a better rebounder even with his average athleticism. Bird averages 10 rebounds for his whole career.
Overall Bird in his prime is a much better player than Lebron, and he plays OFF the ball. Bird averages 6.3 assists through his career through the age of 35 playing off the ball, while lebron dominates the balls all game, makes his teammates worse, only giving them bail out shots and bail out 3s for Bosh, averages only 6.9 assists a game. :oldlol:
These 2 aren't even comparable.
I can't wait till Lebron turns 31 or 32 and his athleticism fades and his scoring and rebounding game take a complete decline in production. See if you lebron stans will still stick around.

and lol@ top 4 all time with another ring. :lol :roll:
these teenagers have no idea what Larry Bird did on court. :oldlol:

[ReturnofJPR]

LeBron leads Damon Jones, Boobie Gibson, Andy Varejao, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and company to the Finals. A few years later he leads a not so different cast with Mo Williams to 66 and 61 wins. Bird needs McHale/Parish, DJ, and just an all around silly stacked team to win anything of relevance. His defense is also LOL-worthy compared to LeBron. Yet Bird > LeBron?:wtf: :oldlol:

Heat fans...Bron stans...

jzek made a great thread earlier in the week comparing the current HEAT to the Cavs and Mo Williams actually was greater than Wade (look at the #'s during this seasons playoff run compared to Mo's with the Cavs). Mo Williams, the All Star, was better. And JJ Hickson is a beast he was on that Cavs team as well...

[Heavincent]

MVP's are a team accomplishment.

[DMAVS41]

Lol. Fffffffcuk no. He's much higher than that. #4 at worst. There have not been 10 better players. You can make your silly legacy arguments, but LeBron isn't only the 11th best player. :roll:

You could make arguments, but he's done nothing to prove he's better than Duncan at this point. At some point it actually matters what you do when it matters most. All the talent in the world and great numbers have to produce stuff...and regular season MVP's just aren't enough to vault him over guys that haven't collapsed in the playoffs a number of times like Lebron has.

Prime Duncan going against a team like the current Spurs or 11 Mavs would rape them...pretty much regardless of help.

[ripthekik]

It will definitely set him back quite a lot.

Being 1/4 in the finals, especially while having Wade and Bosh in 3 of those. And a stacked team this year.

The distance between Lebron and Duncan/Kobe/Shaq will grow bigger, as all of those guys will have at least 4 or 5 rings.

I guess he could still catch up with Hakeem in the future, but it will definitely be tougher for him to catch up with those 3 mentioned above.

[Kiddlovesnets]

When you play a better team, theres nothing one single player can do. I remember someone made a thread for Melo's legacy on the line, Melo went on to win one game but still lost the entire series. Perhaps Heat will win game 2, but that will be their last win of this season.

[DMAVS41]

When you play a better team, theres nothing one single player can do. I remember someone made a thread for Melo's legacy on the line, Melo went on to win one game but still lost the entire series. Perhaps Heat will win game 2, but that will be their last win of this season.

Well...I'm not sure the Spurs are the better team for starters.

And even if that were true, Lebron lost that excuse after the 11 Mavs. Because he certainly had more help than Dirk...and got destroyed.

And it's one thing to lose, but for a prime Lebron to not dominate this Spurs team...is simply just a knock on him. Those other all time greats he's chasing would dominate this Spurs team. I can't even imagine what prime Hakeem or yes...even prime Kobe would do to them. So....

[longtime lurker]

Lol where do you guys get this 1-4 in the finals from? He'd be 1-3 and seeing how that Jerry West is like 1-9 in the finals and nobody gives a shit I don't think it will effect Lebron that much, he'll just have to do a hell of a lot more if he wants to be compared to the all time greats.

[ripthekik]

Lol where do you guys get this 1-4 in the finals from? He'd be 1-3 and seeing how that Jerry West is like 1-9 in the finals and nobody gives a shit I don't think it will effect Lebron that much, he'll just have to do a hell of a lot more if he wants to be compared to the all time greats.
That's why Jerry West isn't in the top 10. If Lebron is comfortable with that, I guess that's fine for everyone.

[TheFan]

You guys are gonna jinx the spurs in a near barbaric way... i can see it now... Miami wins 4 straight games with Duncan turning gay in a blowout loss in the final game.

Did you realize that Miami has lost the first game in both championships(2007, 2012)?

far from over, still way lot of basketball left.

[Kiddlovesnets]

That's why Jerry West isn't in the top 10. If Lebron is comfortable with that, I guess that's fine for everyone.

Nope Jerry West is in top 10, hes the second greatest SG, between MJ and Kobe.

[crisoner]

Nope Jerry West is in top 10, hes the second greatest SG, between MJ and Kobe.

Over Kobe?

Please explain.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Over Kobe?

Please explain.

Kobe is known as a poor man's Jerry West, and apparently there's a reason.

[longtime lurker]

That's why Jerry West isn't in the top 10. If Lebron is comfortable with that, I guess that's fine for everyone.

Jerry West isn't in the top ten because there are at least 10 better players than him. I mean he's top 15 for sure and generally around top 12. But he's never won an MVP and only has one championship despite being in the finals 10 times. I think that's really what hurts his case. For Lebron he wouldn't be that far out of the top 10 because whether he deserved them or not he has 4 MVP's. I just think he'd have to do a lot more if he ever wanted to move past the bottom half.

[crisoner]

LeBron reminds me of Wilt right now.
Great dominate player.....but probably will not win as many titles as he should.

Look at Wilt's career....

[QUOTE]2

[crisoner]

Kobe is known as a poor man's Jerry West, and apparently there's a reason.

SMH :facepalm

OK moving on.....

[crisoner]

Jerry West isn't in the top ten because there are at least 10 better players than him. I mean he's top 15 for sure and generally around top 12. But he's never won an MVP and only has one championship despite being in the finals 10 times. I think that's really what hurts his case. For Lebron he wouldn't be that far out of the top 10 because whether he deserved them or not he has 4 MVP's. I just think he'd have to do a lot more if he ever wanted to move past the bottom half.


MVP's

I don't buy in to MVP's what so ever.
Shaq...how long was he the best player in the league and what...one MVP? Same with Kobe.

And it only counts for the regular season.
I think that's BS. You need to include the playoffs!

LeBron would have two of his stripped away at aleast if that was the case.

The playoffs are the real deal...not saying you have to win it all. But if you perform well in the playoffs and had a good regular season then you should get an MVP.

[ripthekik]

Nope Jerry West is in top 10, hes the second greatest SG, between MJ and Kobe.
:oldlol: :roll:

this goes into the dumbest things said on ISH thread

[longtime lurker]

MVP's

I don't buy in to MVP's what so ever.
Shaq...how long was he the best player in the league and what...one MVP? Same with Kobe.

And it only counts for the regular season.
I think that's BS. You need to include the playoffs!

LeBron would have two of his stripped away at aleast if that was the case.

The playoffs are the real deal...not saying you have to win it all. But if you perform well in the playoffs and had a good regular season then you should get an MVP.

Well I agree that MVP's are bullshit but at the end of the day like it or not they are still an accomplishment. Saying they don't count is almost as stupid as when people saying Kobe's 3 championships with Shaq don't count or acting like finals MVPs actually mean anything. That's why at the end of the day championships will ultimately mean the most.

[KG215]

:wtf: :facepalm

You've completely lost it. You are either a Kobe stan or a troll if you honestly believe a goddamn 4-time MVP winner is outside the top 10. Either way, logic cannot be used against your kind.

LeBron's currently sitting at probably 7-8 all-time and with another title moves up to top 4 all time. As high as 2 and no lower than 4. LOL at you bringing up Oscar, Dr. J, Moses etc. They aren't in LeBron's league.

I've been waiting for people to give me a good explanation for why 4-time MVP + 2-time champion Wilt Chamberlain is in the "Immortal 5" all-time and yet 4-time MVP + 2-time champion LeBron James (if he wins this year) would merely crack the top 10. Stupidity.
Have to admit, it's amusing to see you call someone out for being a stan or troll when, in your short time with us, you've proven to be one of the most biased and most ignorant posters on here.

[2010splash]

:biggums:
Bird is better than Lebron on all those things. And he's a better rebounder even with his average athleticism. Bird averages 10 rebounds for his whole career.
Overall Bird in his prime is a much better player than Lebron, and he plays OFF the ball. Bird averages 6.3 assists through his career through the age of 35 playing off the ball, while lebron dominates the balls all game, makes his teammates worse, only giving them bail out shots and bail out 3s for Bosh, averages only 6.9 assists a game. :oldlol:
These 2 aren't even comparable.
I can't wait till Lebron turns 31 or 32 and his athleticism fades and his scoring and rebounding game take a complete decline in production. See if you lebron stans will still stick around.

and lol@ top 4 all time with another ring. :lol :roll:
these teenagers have no idea what Larry Bird did on court. :oldlol:
Bird is nowhere near LeBron from 2008-2013. I don't care what LeBron does when he's 32. Bird has never sniffed the two way impact of 2008-2013 LeBron. Bird's career playoff PER is a measly 21.4. This is the guy who was so dominant that he's better than LeBron? Even Kobe has a higher playoff PER. :sleeping LeBron's career playoff PER of 27.3 is a sign of dominance and puts Bird's to shame.

Bird can play off the ball, so what? LeBron is ball dominant and very successful at being ball dominant, far more so than Bird. Durant plays off the ball like crazy and that's never an argument to be used in favor of him. If anything, it shows that Bird is a vastly inferior player in iso situations. If you have no offense going on around you and you need a "make something happen out of nothing" player, you go with LeBron. Bird needs much more talent around him to have success than LeBron, simply because LeBron impacts every facet of the game.

Call me when Bird can shut down the opposite team's best player while dropping a triple double like it's nothing.

[Kiddlovesnets]

:oldlol: :roll:

this goes into the dumbest things said on ISH thread

Only Kobestans consider this as dumb, in fact they believe everything not in favor of Kobe is dumb so this aint really surprising to me.
:lol

[2010splash]

Heat fans...Bron stans...

jzek made a great thread earlier in the week comparing the current HEAT to the Cavs and Mo Williams actually was greater than Wade (look at the #'s during this seasons playoff run compared to Mo's with the Cavs). Mo Williams, the All Star, was better. And JJ Hickson is a beast he was on that Cavs team as well...
Horrible teammates in Cleveland. JJ Hickson is a no name scrub. Compare him to the PF's who actually win titles. If Mo Williams is your second best player, you know your team is hysterically bad. The other second best players on championship teams, by contrast, are players like Gasol, Pierce, Kobe, Parker, Pippen, Drexler, Shaq, Kareem, McHale, etc. Mo Williams compared to those guys?:oldlol: The fact that LeBron led such terrible teams to 60+ wins is a more impressive feat than these other greats winning titles with such stacked rosters.

And btw, for people dismissing MVP's, it's what actually measures individual impact, far moreso than championships. If LeBron had Gasol/Odom/Bynum or Allen/Garnett instead of whatever he had in Cleveland, those MVP's would be followed up by Finals MVP's as well. How is it so hard for people to understand that in a 5 on 5 sport, your team's success in the playoffs does not matter if you're playing with scrubs while your competition is playing with all-stars?

[ihoopallday]

Making it to the finals all those times is still pretty amazing no matter how you look at it. There are plenty of great players who never even got the chance to play in the finals. But I agree, it will hurt his legacy if he goes 1-4.

[DMAVS41]

Bird is nowhere near LeBron from 2008-2013. I don't care what LeBron does when he's 32. Bird has never sniffed the two way impact of 2008-2013 LeBron. Bird's career playoff PER is a measly 21.4. This is the guy who was so dominant that he's better than LeBron? Even Kobe has a higher playoff PER. :sleeping LeBron's career playoff PER of 27.3 is a sign of dominance and puts Bird's to shame.

Bird can play off the ball, so what? LeBron is ball dominant and very successful at being ball dominant, far more so than Bird. Durant plays off the ball like crazy and that's never an argument to be used in favor of him. If anything, it shows that Bird is a vastly inferior player in iso situations. If you have no offense going on around you and you need a "make something happen out of nothing" player, you go with LeBron. Bird needs much more talent around him to have success than LeBron, simply because LeBron impacts every facet of the game.

Call me when Bird can shut down the opposite team's best player while dropping a triple double like it's nothing.


This would all be great if 2011 didn't happen. 2011 casts a large shadow on all the Lebron hypotheticals forever.

[Dbrog]

:oldlol: :roll:

this goes into the dumbest things said on ISH thread

mmmm...not really. Is it wrong? Yes. Is it one of the dumbest? Not even close. At least Kobe and West are comparable. Both are some of the most elite scorers the league has ever seen (I give edge to Kobe) and both are good on defense (edge goes to West here).

[Nero Tulip]

Lebron will end up in the top 10, because he's an amazing regular season performer.

[LongLiveTheKing]

LeBron CANNOT lose this Finals it will be a HUGE hit to his legacy! All the pressure is on him to play well in Game 2. F*ck this 2-3-2 format.

[Nero Tulip]

LeBron CANNOT lose this Finals it will be a HUGE hit to his legacy! All the pressure is on him to play well in Game 2. F*ck this 2-3-2 format.

You liked the 2-3-2 format last year :D

[jrong]

All it will take is a loss in the Finals, and the (nonsensical) GOAT chatter will stop dead in its tracks.

Also, it will almost certainly mean the end of the big 3 after next year, if not before that.

[Nevaeh]

I see your point, but in this scenario he's basically being punished for getting to the Finals from the weaker conference and getting swept by the Spurs, if he was in the west and went out in the 1st round every year and now was 1-1 in the finals potentially going 2-1 it would be a different story.
At this point the Jordan argument is probably dead, but will there ever be a player who will be able to live up to the Jordan standard?

No dude, he's getting "punished" for playing like a b!tch during his failures in the finals, just like Kobe did back in the day. What point is it to work your ass off to get there, only to turn into a Jr. high school version of yourself, when you're just a few games away from Basketball "immortality", so to speak?

That's like the ultimate tease for fans that saw what you were made of all season long, and deep into the playoffs, only to see you go stone retard right at the finish line. Yeah, I know, nerves play into it a bit too, but you've proven yourself already. MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN, even if you do go down swinging, just like Russ and KD did last year as young,first time Finals players.

[2010splash]

This would all be great if 2011 didn't happen. 2011 casts a large shadow on all the Lebron hypotheticals forever.
See, the thing is it actually doesn't. You and others like to believe this because it's the only "superstar underachieves in the Finals" performance you vividly remember. And seeing that it happened just 2 years ago, that's understandable.

But the fact is that Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Kobe have all had equally bad if not worse Finals performances in their careers. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, 2011 doesn't really mean much. If LeBron goes on to win just 1 more title, nobody will care about 2011.

[sportjames23]

No dude, he's getting "punished" for playing like a b!tch during his failures in the finals, just like Kobe did back in the day. What point is it to work your ass off to get there, only to turn into a Jr. high school version of yourself, when you're just a few games away from Basketball "immortality", so to speak?

That's like the ultimate tease for fans that saw what you were made of all season long, and deep into the playoffs, only to see you go stone retard right at the finish line. Yeah, I know, nerves play into it a bit too, but you've proven yourself already. MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN, even if you do go down swinging, just like Russ and KD did last year as young,first time Finals players.


This.

[sportjames23]

See, the thing is it actually doesn't. You and others like to believe this because it's the only "superstar underachieves in the Finals" performance you vividly remember. And seeing that it happened just 2 years ago, that's understandable.

But the fact is that Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Kobe have all had equally bad if not worse Finals performances in their careers. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, 2011 doesn't really mean much. If LeBron goes on to win just 1 more title, nobody will care about 2011.


But you know what, doe? They all don't have losing records in the Finals like Lebron does.

[KOBE143]

When you joined two superstars in your primes, you dont deserve to have legacy..

[2010splash]

But you know what, doe? They all don't have losing records in the Finals like Lebron does.
But they choked in the Finals more than LeBron did. Also, it takes a simple mind to hold 2007 against LeBron. That team had no business even being in the Finals, which is more than I can say about any of Magic, Kareem or Bird's stacked teams. Those guys have never led a team as bad as the 2007 Cavs (heck, even the 2009 and 2010 Cavs) to anywhere relevant.

[eliteballer]

:applause:

[CrazyLond]

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan


Are all better than Lebron. Lebron ain't #4 All-Time.

You forgot Kareem, who is miles ahead of Lebron and ahead of most of the others on that list...

25ppg/11 rpg/56% FG% over 20 year career
19 time all star
6 time regular season MVP
10 time all NBA 1st team
5 time all defensive first team
6 rings
2 finals MVPs
2 scoring titles
NBA record for most career points, minutes, FGs
70 career 40 pt games, 10 career 50 pt games

[2010splash]

Are you jokers serious? Kareem can't hold LeBron's jock prime for prime. Yeah he has more titles and accomplishments because he rode Magic's coattails and won titles as a 36-40 year old. That doesn't make him a better player.

Kareem scored 4 points in a Finals closeout game and averaged like 17/6 in his last 3 titles. Disgraceful comparing him to LeBron. Some of you should really read up on the history of these players instead of spouting random accomplishments due to longevity (and not due to peak dominance).

[NumberSix]

Are you jokers serious? Kareem can't hold LeBron's jock prime for prime. Yeah he has more titles and accomplishments because he rode Magic's coattails and won titles as a 36-40 year old. That doesn't make him a better player.

Kareem scored 4 points in a Finals closeout game and averaged like 17/6 in his last 3 titles. Disgraceful comparing him to LeBron.
Kareem was CLEARLY the best player on that Lakers team until about '86.

[DMAVS41]

See, the thing is it actually doesn't. You and others like to believe this because it's the only "superstar underachieves in the Finals" performance you vividly remember. And seeing that it happened just 2 years ago, that's understandable.

But the fact is that Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Kobe have all had equally bad if not worse Finals performances in their careers. Thus, in the grand scheme of things, 2011 doesn't really mean much. If LeBron goes on to win just 1 more title, nobody will care about 2011.

Uhhh...no.

Only Kobe's 04 could be compared to that. But that wasn't even my point. My point is that you can't just assume Lebron on a great team is going to win. He had the most help in 11 and lost.

Sorry. Nothing can change that.

[2010splash]

Uhhh...no.

Only Kobe's 04 could be compared to that. But that wasn't even my point. My point is that you can't just assume Lebron on a great team is going to win. He had the most help in 11 and lost.

Sorry. Nothing can change that.
Yes, but it's one series. Magic, Bird, Kareem and Wilt choked like crazy in the Finals before, but those are rarely mentioned. LeBron is the only one held to these unique standards. Kobe's 2004 and 2008 were both worse than LeBron's 2011. The fact is LeBron will very likely win several more titles before he retires, thus making 2011 an irrelevant footnote in his career. 20 years from now nobody's going to look back at LeBron's career and bring up 2011 when he will likely have 6-7 MVP's, 4-5 titles, etc.

[Bandito]

Yes, but it's one series. Magic, Bird, Kareem and Wilt choked like crazy in the Finals before, but those are rarely mentioned. LeBron is the only one held to these unique standards. Kobe's 2004 and 2008 were both worse than LeBron's 2011. The fact is LeBron will very likely win several more titles before he retires, thus making 2011 an irrelevant footnote in his career. 20 years from now nobody's going to look back at LeBron's career and bring up 2011 when he will likely have 6-7 MVP's, 4-5 titles, etc.
The problem with your statement is that there are a lot of IF's. What IF he doesn't win 4-5 titles? What then? He would be know as a backstabbing unloyal choker who couldn't win enough titles with 2 of the top 10 players of his era.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, but it's one series. Magic, Bird, Kareem and Wilt choked like crazy in the Finals before, but those are rarely mentioned. LeBron is the only one held to these unique standards. Kobe's 2004 and 2008 were both worse than LeBron's 2011. The fact is LeBron will very likely win several more titles before he retires, thus making 2011 an irrelevant footnote in his career. 20 years from now nobody's going to look back at LeBron's career and bring up 2011 when he will likely have 6-7 MVP's, 4-5 titles, etc.

Which is why I will have Lebron over Kobe very soon as long as his impact yields results.

But he just hasn't done enough yet to go over the other guys at this point.

If he has 7 mvp's and 5 titles...totally agree.

But my point was different. My point was about assuming Lebron with great help is always going to win. That ship sailed in 2011...

And it isn't just 1 series. He was awful in 07 finals, weird in 10 celtics series, worst superstar choke ever in finals in 11. If he loses again....it's just too much to ever have the kind of legacy you want him to have.

He'll finish somewhere between 7 and 10 unless he does crazy things. Losing this year would just be a pretty damn big blow.

[NumberSix]

Which is why I will have Lebron over Kobe very soon as long as his impact yields results.

But he just hasn't done enough yet to go over the other guys at this point.

If he has 7 mvp's and 5 titles...totally agree.

But my point was different. My point was about assuming Lebron with great help is always going to win. That ship sailed in 2011...

And it isn't just 1 series. He was awful in 07 finals, weird in 10 celtics series, worst superstar choke ever in finals in 11. If he loses again....it's just too much to ever have the kind of legacy you want him to have.

He'll finish somewhere between 7 and 10 unless he does crazy things. Losing this year would just be a pretty damn big blow.
LeBron needs 7 MVPs and 5 rings to surpass Kobe?:wtf:

Are you fcuking kidding or am I understanding wrong?

[Bandito]

LeBron needs 7 MVPs and 5 rings to surpass Kobe?:wtf:

Are you fcuking kidding or am I understanding wrong?
With 7 MVP's I think he has to either win 3 straight or 4 if he never wins back to back to be honest. And that was not because of the Decision but because of 2011 Choke Job.

[CrazyLond]

Are you jokers serious? Kareem can't hold LeBron's jock prime for prime. Yeah he has more titles and accomplishments because he rode Magic's coattails and won titles as a 36-40 year old. That doesn't make him a better player.

Kareem scored 4 points in a Finals closeout game and averaged like 17/6 in his last 3 titles. Disgraceful comparing him to LeBron. Some of you should really read up on the history of these players instead of spouting random accomplishments due to longevity (and not due to peak dominance).

I wonder what Lebron's per game averages will be in the finals when he's 40...

Kareem is ahead of Lebron in almost every measure there is...more titles, more finals mvps, more regular season mvps, more ppg in his peak seasons, more all star appearances, more all NBA teams, more defensive teams, etc. If you are talking about GOAT, then longevity absolutely matters, because being able to compete in the league at a high level over a long period is a measure of greatness.

If you want to talk about best peak, then pick a season of Lebron's and tell me why it is better than Kareem's second year in the league where he averaged 31.7ppg, 16rpg, won the season MVP and scoring title, led the team to a 12-2 record in the playoffs and swept the Bullets in the finals, winning finals MVP.

[2010splash]

I wonder what Lebron's per game averages will be in the finals when he's 40...

Kareem is ahead of Lebron in almost every measure there is...more titles, more finals mvps, more regular season mvps, more ppg in his peak seasons, more all star appearances, more all NBA teams, more defensive teams, etc. If you are talking about GOAT, then longevity absolutely matters, because being able to compete in the league at a high level over a long period is a measure of greatness.

If you want to talk about best peak, then pick a season of Lebron's and tell me why it is better than Kareem's second year in the league where he averaged 31.7ppg, 16rpg, won the season MVP and scoring title, led the team to a 12-2 record in the playoffs and swept the Bullets in the finals, winning finals MVP.Well yeah, that's the point. Kareem had the luxury of padding his career resume by winning 2-3 titles as basically a role player riding Magic's coattails. This leads to people reciting his laundry list of awards and accomplishments. I wonder how much more decorated LeBron's career resume would look if he could ride the coattails of someone better than him to multiple championships. But that would never happen, because LeBron can't play with someone better than him.

Kareem never had a season as good as 2013 LeBron. Never had a playoff run as good as 2009 LeBron. And you bring up his MVP's while ignoring that the 70's is considered by everyone to be the worst era in NBA history. People like to downplay LeBron's competition. The 70's is universally regarded as the worst era ever. Like I said, no player whose peak involved missing the playoffs back to back seasons is as good as LeBron. Silly talk.

[2010splash]

Which is why I will have Lebron over Kobe very soon as long as his impact yields results.

But he just hasn't done enough yet to go over the other guys at this point.

If he has 7 mvp's and 5 titles...totally agree.

But my point was different. My point was about assuming Lebron with great help is always going to win. That ship sailed in 2011...

And it isn't just 1 series. He was awful in 07 finals, weird in 10 celtics series, worst superstar choke ever in finals in 11. If he loses again....it's just too much to ever have the kind of legacy you want him to have.

He'll finish somewhere between 7 and 10 unless he does crazy things. Losing this year would just be a pretty damn big blow.
7 MVP's and 5 titles puts LeBron at consensus #2 player all-time at the very worst and with a very good argument for GOAT. Never mind "the other guys."

The 2007 Finals is a terrible point. That Cavs team was worth maybe 15-20 wins minus LeBron. It was the worst team to ever make the Finals. The point is they had no business even getting past the Pistons. Had they lost to the Pistons like they should have, LeBron has no 2007 Finals stats to be used against him. And what about 2010? LeBron's Cavs lost to the much more talented and battle-tested/proven champion Boston Celtics.

There are no stains on LeBron's legacy besides 2011. And if we're going to emphasize a single Finals loss for LeBron's career, then the same must be done for several past Finals chokers like Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Magic, and Kobe.

And about the "finishing between 7-10" part, just LOL. He's already around 7-10. He's a flat out lock to finish top 4 all-time and will likely have a strong case for #2 all-time when it's all said and done. Wilt Chamberlain is regarded in many circles as anywhere from the best to 3rd or 4th best player ever. Nobody has him lower than that, and he's had far more Finals chokes and no more playoff success than LeBron.

[JohnnyA]

If the Heat lose the effect on his "legacy" will depend a lot on how he loses. If he falls apart, or plays okay but not aggressively, then his legacy will take a big hit. I don't think there is any doubt of that.

If the heat lose but LeBron plays great (something like 32-8-6 on 55%) I think the hit will be minimal... assuming he goes on to win more rings/FMVPs over the rest of his career.

I see LeBrons narrative as one of redemption, a child (up to 2011) stepping up to his responsibilities becoming a man(2012 on). However if he performs poorly in the Finals again the story simply becomes that of a highly skilled player who doesn't have the mental strength to perform consistently in high pressure situations.

We should also keep in mind that the way LeBron's body is handling the minutes and the lack of injury means he is probably going to be dominant for another 2-4 years, and top 10 for another 3-5 after that. He could easily win another ring or two in Miami as FMVP, then go back to Cleveland team up with Kyrie and get them 2 rings (maybe an FMVP split with Kyrie).

PS Narrative aside its still better to make the finals than to not make the finals!

[CAstill]

Which is why I will have Lebron over Kobe very soon as long as his impact yields results.

But he just hasn't done enough yet to go over the other guys at this point.

If he has 7 mvp's and 5 titles...totally agree.

But my point was different. My point was about assuming Lebron with great help is always going to win. That ship sailed in 2011...

And it isn't just 1 series. He was awful in 07 finals, weird in 10 celtics series, worst superstar choke ever in finals in 11. If he loses again....it's just too much to ever have the kind of legacy you want him to have.

He'll finish somewhere between 7 and 10 unless he does crazy things. Losing this year would just be a pretty damn big blow.

No you want to put Bron over kobe because you're a Kobe hater lol. Kobe>>>Bron and it isn't changing anytime soon.

[Raider007]

Other things to take into consideration...
http://images.wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/lebron-flop-2.gif

Michael, Kobe, Kareem, Bird, never flopped like Bron did and still does.


http://images.wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/BronFlop.gif

His "Legacy" will always include Extreme Flopping. (attempted cheating)



How about his fear to be "the MaN" in the big games....

http://oi52.tinypic.com/s2cheu.jpg

Stats of a true scrub role player. Not the "top 10 of all time"

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Lebron-Waldo.jpg
More Proof that he is the princess of ESPN regardless of how shitty he has been.


So Take it from one of the TRUE NBA Stars...
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/tillyho12/659376fb.jpg



Now all you Bronzie Fans are freakin outhttps://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4211883776/h6974CAD5/

Just go and punch yourselves in the face


http://i.imgur.com/U5evtaR.gif


Thats The "LEGACY"!

[DMAVS41]

LeBron needs 7 MVPs and 5 rings to surpass Kobe?:wtf:

Are you fcuking kidding or am I understanding wrong?

You are understanding wrong as usual.

Right now I have Lebron as the 11th best player ever. With a title and finals mvp this year...he moves into that kobe, hakeem, bird range for me on my list.

that response about the 7 mvp's and 5 rings was directly to the guy using those as a reason why nobody will care about his 11 performance. So yea...if he does that...11 won't matter much at all.

Look...it's insulting the likes of MJ, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Kareem, and Duncan and Shaq to start talking about Lebron being better or on their level after 1 ****ing ring....even 2.

And it's not a ring counting thing...Lebron has now been in a position to win a ring 3 years in a row with the best help the last 2 years...and still enough this year.

I just don't see how a 1 ring Lebron with his resume is better than any of the top 10 players. He's the clear cut 11th best player of all time at this point in my opinion.

But this notion that losing this series won't matter just has to stop.

That is right now...if we are projecting? I would think Lebron likely finishes in that Wilt/Kareem/Magic range for me. But again...that is assuming they win this year. Losing this year...and it's just hard to imagine him doing enough to ever reach that level. Again...it's just insulting to some of those guys in that top 6 or so. I mean...

Let's ask you. Where do you rank Lebron right now? Is he better than Shaq? I mean...I do think MVP's matter a lot actually, but I think dominance in the playoffs matters more. And Shaq just has that clearly over Lebron at this point.

It's going to take time. The truth is that we can't accurately rank someone until we've seen more of their careers than this.

But I'll keep saying it. Winning only 1 title in 3 years with the Heat is a really crappy start to Lebron's legacy years. And it's a team that looks like it will most likely get worse and there is no doubt that the competition is going to get much better. This years' competition has been extremely weak in my opinion....Spurs aren't weak, but kind of reminds me of 09 for the Lakers. Just a weak year...they didn't play a quality opponent until the conference finals...and the Pacers are good, but not great. They lucked out with injuries to Westbrook and Rose big time.

So you have to capitalize on opportunities like this. And I'm not saying the Heat have lost. I told you I still like them to win, but it's now likely going to be a 7 game series. And the guys ahead of Lebron...or the guys Lebron is trying to pass all time....some of them would just absolutely rape this Spurs team in their primes...regardless of help. And I want to see Lebron do that as well before I start putting him over guys like Hakeem and Bird.

[Vragrant]

So Take it from one of the TRUE NBA Stars...
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/tillyho12/659376fb.jpg







What? If this is actually true, when did Bird say this??

[No_Look604]

Did Larry Bird really say that about Lebron?

And if so, when was that said? Like right after the 2011 finals or sometime this year? Hmmmm

It's fckin true! And T-Mac knows whats up too.

[ripthekik]

It is well known that all the legends do NOT respect Lebron. Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird all have quotes against Lebron.

As for his legacy, it doesn't matter if he goes down with triple double, it's on him. You find a way to win, especially when your team is so stacked. Winning 1/3 with such great teammates and making the decision? That's not going away, no matter where he goes and what he does after.

[Cleverness]

Now that the Spurs have won and Tracy McGrady is 1/1 (100%) in the finals, I think he may pass LeBron 1/4 (25%) on the all-time list.

[KyleKong]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMGvSg9CMAEjVrX.jpg

LeBron is only 28 years old. He has another 8 years to win titles and MVPs.

[DMAVS41]

It is well known that all the legends do NOT respect Lebron. Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird all have quotes against Lebron.

As for his legacy, it doesn't matter if he goes down with triple double, it's on him. You find a way to win, especially when your team is so stacked. Winning 1/3 with such great teammates and making the decision? That's not going away, no matter where he goes and what he does after.

Right. This series wouldn't matter as much if we didn't watch Lebron do whatever the hell he did in 2010. At the time...we could give him a pass for that because he might have been injured and he had very poor help to beat those Celtics.

But then 11 happened. What is the excuse there? He was healthy...playing a team with less help...and his two guys played well...with Wade playing great.

So we can't just ignore that stuff. If they lose again....once again it's Lebron not being able to do enough...even though this year is harder, it's just more of the same.

I'm the first guy to talk about team strength...but lets look at the facts when we are comparing Lebron to the 10 best of all time.

Cavs made the finals in 07...lost with Lebron playing like ass.
Cavs came the closest to beating the Celtics in 08...Lebron played a great game 7, but was awful early on in that series
Cavs lost to the Magic in ECF...Lebron was great
Cavs lost to the Celtics...Lebron was below average overall
Worst superstar choke in the finals in NBA history
Title
????

I mean...some of the guys we are comparing him to simply yield better results than that. If you took the top 10 all time...the minimum for each of them during 07 to present with the kind of help he got is 1 or 2 titles. I mean...Kobe is probably the only guy I could see winning 0 or only 1. All of the rest simply win more in my opinion.

So a loss this year is ****ing huge....

[ShaqAttack3234]

Right. This series wouldn't matter as much if we didn't watch Lebron do whatever the hell he did in 2010. At the time...we could give him a pass for that because he might have been injured and he had very poor help to beat those Celtics.

But then 11 happened. What is the excuse there? He was healthy...playing a team with less help...and his two guys played well...with Wade playing great.

So we can't just ignore that stuff. If they lose again....once again it's Lebron not being able to do enough...even though this year is harder, it's just more of the same.

I'm the first guy to talk about team strength...but lets look at the facts when we are comparing Lebron to the 10 best of all time.

Cavs made the finals in 07...lost with Lebron playing like ass.
Cavs came the closest to beating the Celtics in 08...Lebron played a great game 7, but was awful early on in that series
Cavs lost to the Magic in ECF...Lebron was great
Cavs lost to the Celtics...Lebron was below average overall
Worst superstar choke in the finals in NBA history
Title
????

I mean...some of the guys we are comparing him to simply yield better results than that. If you took the top 10 all time...the minimum for each of them during 07 to present with the kind of help he got is 1 or 2 titles. I mean...Kobe is probably the only guy I could see winning 0 or only 1. All of the rest simply win more in my opinion.

So a loss this year is ****ing huge....

Pretty much my thoughts. As it is, Lebron is at at a level I believe has only been surpassed by MJ, Hakeem and Shaq at their peaks as far as players from the 90's on, but because of what we've seen in the past, he needs more than just last season. Just my opinion and how I rank players.