Does lebron have a chance to be the GOAT and if so what does he need to do

[Boston C's]

I personally think He doesnt have much shot to be the greatest ever unless he runs off like 7 straight rings lol

[PrettyCool]

2 more rings and he's goat. He's already the greatest and most talented individual player of all time.

[Boston C's]

2 more rings and he's goat. He's already the greatest and most talented individual player of all time.

2 more rings might get him in the top 5

[TheFan]

4 rings(3 more rings) while keeping the current numbers and He is the goat... He already had the GOAT season in term of efficiency.

[PrettyCool]

2 more rings might get him in the top 5

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He's already in the top 5.

[Boston C's]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He's already in the top 5.

hes barely top 10 if that...I like lebron but your overrating him a bit :lol

[gengiskhan]

2 more rings and he's goat. He's already the greatest and most talented individual player of all time.

Nope.

well behind

Jordan
Bird
Big O
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem

in talent/skills department.

[MetsPackers]

Maybe


He needs to beat the Spurs and be the FMVP to start or he may lose his shot

[iDunkOnFatKids]

He needs to beat the Spurs and be the FMVP to start or he may lose his shot


I agree with this. I think it is still a valid conversation when people compare him to MJ now (not saying he is better than MJ). However, if he doesn't beat spurs, as good as his individual stats/awards is, his resume will not be good enough to be GOAT. 2 finals loss in his prime in 3 years is no GOAT. Still have a shot at top5 though.

[Le Shaqtus]

He will go down as one of the GOAT, not the GOAT , also go down as one of the of the biggest divas to ever play the game.

[diamenz]

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

...never

[Ca$H]

Already eliminated from consideration due to the 2011 NBA Finals.

[bluechox2]

top 25 for sure, but he has to get hi act together, stop flopping, man up, and lead the team

[ConanRulesNBC]

If he wins 7 championships I'll consider him the GOAT.

[Collie]

7 rings, 6 MVPs, 7 finals MVPs.

That's 1 each more than what MJ has, so I think it's fair to say that's what it will take.

[ConanRulesNBC]

2 more rings and he's goat. He's already the greatest and most talented individual player of all time.

:wtf:

Holy crap. You're trolling here. I hope. Jordan's 6 rings > LeBron's 3, Duncan's 4 rings > LeBron's 3, Kobe's 5 rings > LeBron's 3, Shaq's 4 rings > LeBron's 3. Still not better than any of them or Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Kareem, Wilt.

Just stop it. The overrating of LeBron James is getting beyond ridiculous at this point.

[deja vu]

No chance. The ship has already sailed. :applause:

[ConanRulesNBC]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He's already in the top 5.

In what world is he top 5?

He's absolutely NOT better than:

MJ
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[PrettyCool]

In what world is he top 5?

He's absolutely NOT better than:

MJ
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

:roll: @ bold.

[oh the horror]

:roll: @ bold.



How old are you?


You're either baiting people on purpose or you're the kid in a convo among adults.


If you believe Lebron is a top five player already then your basketball history is staggeringly short sighted.


I've been watching for 20 years +....Lebron hasn't had his level of play long enough to be anywhere near 5 and up.

[tmacattack33]

To become the actual best basketball player the planet has ever seen, his long r ange shot needs to take another jump next year. He's above average to good at it now. He needs to move up to the good category.

And his post game can go up another level, as it did this past year.

If that can happen next year, it's on.

It will probably take 2-3 years though, and his athleticism might fade by then.



To be number 1 on people's "Greatness" list is a different story and that would depend on them winning the Finals this year, Wade somehow getting very healthy next year and playing great for another 3 years, and them getting 3 more rings.

[chopchop20]

He has a chance of being the modern day Jerry West too

[La Frescobaldi]

How old are you?


You're either baiting people on purpose or you're the kid in a convo among adults.


If you believe Lebron is a top five player already then your basketball history is staggeringly short sighted.


I've been watching for 20 years +....Lebron hasn't had his level of play long enough to be anywhere near 5 and up.

I was thinking that same thing.

James has played at an all time great level very consistently this season whereas in earlier years he was up and down a lot, real inconsistent.... it remains to be seen if he can sustain that level over years.
If he does show that sustained excellence, though, he's right up there towards the top because when he's on he's as great as I've seen

[TheMan]

He already is GOAT.

stats > rings

[PrettyCool]

How old are you?


You're either baiting people on purpose or you're the kid in a convo among adults.


If you believe Lebron is a top five player already then your basketball history is staggeringly short sighted.


I've been watching for 20 years +....Lebron hasn't had his level of play long enough to be anywhere near 5 and up.

I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.

[jstern]

Step up the same way Jordan would step up. This might some like a put down to those not familiar with Jordan, but it's the reason for why I think he's the GOAT. I think Lebron does a great job stepping up many times. So many examples, I'm sure there was a thread about it, but for example, during the finals people saying that Clyde was a better 3 point shooter, and then Jordan setting that Finals 3-point shot record. There are a million more example, but basically equal Jordan's will power.


I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.

Hate to say it, but if you're 16, you're ignorant about everything in life, and you'll agree with me when you get older and then older.

I mean, you're probably just trolling, but if not, you don't know anything. And if not, then you'll probably dumb to think that you know anything about Kobe, let alone Jordan.

[kobeef24]

I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.


You've been a heat fan since 88 and you're 16...

[SamuraiSWISH]

7 rings
3 or 4 more MVPs (to off set 2007, 2010, and 2011)

Be not just the best player, but also make MEMORABLE games. MJ was the best and most memorable player. He lives on in our memories.

So far, he's pretty far off pace considering a number of set backs. If he loses to the Spurs this year, and do so in underwhelming fashion then he will have a real uphill battle to even make top five.

It's funny, going to Miami actually made him have to accomplish more IMO in order to reach MJ level company.

[Bandito]

Already eliminated from consideration due to the 2011 NBA Finals.
This.

In order to become GOAT he has to win like 8 rings, not consecutively mind you and it has to be as the main STAR.

[PrettyCool]

Hate to say it, but if you're 16, you're ignorant about everything in life, and you'll agree with me when you get older and then older.

I mean, you're probably just trolling, but if not, you don't know anything. And if not, then you'll probably dumb to think that you know anything about Kobe, let alone Jordan.

I'm old enough to have seen them both play, and Lebron is just better.

[Ne 1]

I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.

Back in my day trolling meant something.

[kobeef24]

LeBron is going to need at least 5 or 6 rings before he can be considered the goat, and he'll have to be the FMVP for each of those. He'll also need at least one or two more MVP's which I'm sure he will get. LeBron isn't top 10 yet, but he's on the brink of it. He will most likely finish his career top 5 but I don't see him going down as the goat.

[Ca$H]

I'm old enough to have seen them both play, and Lebron is just better.

You are 16 but your title says heat fan since 1988. Nice trolling bro.

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm old enough to have seen them both play, and Lebron is just better.
It's past your bedtime.

[diamenz]

Yeah, if I was born then I'd be a Heat fan.

I was old enough to see Jordan play and Lebron is just a better player.

you saw wizards jordan when you were five and you claim to have knowledge on him? you need to holler at some early nineties and late eighties jordan... but you're probably too naive to do so.

[Harison]

Regardless how many rings Lebron wins - he will never be a GOAT, that ship has sailed.

What he could do, is to challenge Magic-Bird for Top5-6, if he wins another 6 rings or so. Short of that, he wont be challenging them either. Lebron is a couple of rings away from Top10 as well.

[Dbrog]

He obviously has a chance. Will he reach it? Unlikely. These conversations remind me so much of Shaq in his prime. They parallel surprisingly well actually. Shaq/Bron = Both are physically freaks of nature, potential through the roof (ppl saying they could reach GOAT status), dominant at times in game, change the game tremendously just by being on the floor, etc etc. Also both have lack of work ethic/motivation, large egos, not as useful in final play of the game as in the rest of the game (not game winner threats usually), etc.

[dh144498]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

He's already in the top 5.


4 rings(3 more rings) while keeping the current numbers and He is the goat... He already had the GOAT season in term of efficiency.

:biggums:

:wtf: :wtf:

[Le Shaqtus]

:biggums:

:wtf: :wtf:

It's hilarious if you think about it.

[tmacattack33]

He obviously has a chance. Will he reach it? Unlikely. These conversations remind me so much of Shaq in his prime. They parallel surprisingly well actually. Shaq/Bron = Both are physically freaks of nature, potential through the roof (ppl saying they could reach GOAT status), dominant at times in game, change the game tremendously just by being on the floor, etc etc. Also both have lack of work ethic/motivation, large egos, not as useful in final play of the game as in the rest of the game (not game winner threats usually), etc.

Shaq was lazy though and eventually became out of shape and that cut his prime short. Lebron does not seem lazy at all and his longevity will be better than shaqs was.

[Kovach]

Bunch of butthurt Jordan stans mad that their idols legacy is threatened by LeGawd.
It's not that. People are just legitimately worried how the standards for greatness seem to have evaporated over the years.

[Dbrog]

Shaq was lazy though and eventually became out of shape and that cut his prime short. Lebron does not seem lazy at all and his longevity will be better than shaqs was.

This is certainly true...although I feel Bron is lazy at times when he's actually in games (moreso than Shaq). I still maintain that they could easily have similar careers when it's all said and done. People will rate them as two of the most dominant ever, but they will likely have accomplished much less than they "should" have.

[COnDEMnED]

not a chance, for him to have a crack at it he would need to die and be reincarnated and start his career over.

[diamenz]

Bunch of butthurt Jordan stans mad that their idols legacy is threatened by LeGawd.

oh my, he's quite the threat!

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

[dh144498]

oh my, he's quite the threat!

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

someone clearly sniped him in the face. :confusedshrug:

[PrettyCool]

oh my, he's quite the threat!

http://www.sportsgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/lebron-flop-2.gif

ok.....So Lebron can't never be goat because he was knocked off balance by a 300 pound professional athlete?

[chazzy]

He's not better individually than MJ, so he'd have to surpass his accomplishments

[kamil]

ok.....So Lebron can't never be goat because he was knocked off balance by a 300 pound professional athlete?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusional?s=t

[jrong]

Perception invariably becomes reality, and the media dictates perception, so, yes, unfortunately, he does, even if he won't deserve it.

But, by any honest measure, he should have to make up for two things, which ought to require more than six rings:

1. Jordan never lost or underwhelmed in the Finals. LeBron has done so twice, and one of those series was historically poor. LeBron also has two very underwhelming, high-profile series vs. the Celts on his playoff resume. Jordan had nothing comparable on that stage.

2. MJ grew his team organically. Pippen may have become an all-time great, but he was a young pup when Mike first got a hold of him. LeBron went to pre-fabricated star team in order to win. And in this discussion, that should definitely be a factor.

[The-Legend-24]

He just need 1 more title and he's set. He's already the better player. I bet no one can name 1 thing Jordan is better than LeBron at?

[DJ Leon Smith]

He just need 1 more title and he's set. He's already the better player. I bet no one can name 1 thing Jordan is better than LeBron at?

He's better at not being outscored by an opposition bench player in a NBA Finals series.

Better double check though, can someone make sure that Jordan wasn't outscored by Danny Ainge in 1992? I could be mistaken. Thanks guys.

[PickernRoller]

He would have to get everyone with knowledge of the game to say he's better.

The last one to come out recently was Dr J. He said he would take Kobe over Lebron. Mind you, Lebron is currently in his prime and in the Finals. Guess he made up his mind during the Pacer series. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The list keeps on growing and his delusional stans keep on growing hope.

[fpliii]

:facepalm at some of these comments.

Stans on both sides are insufferable.

[2010splash]

No one will ever be considered head and shoulders greater than Jordan (too dominant and perfect in the playoffs), but LeBron has a chance to have a legitimate claim to being GOAT. If he wins 6-7 MVP's and 3-4 titles, you can't laugh at the idea that he was the greatest ever. But you could also make an equally compelling argument that Jordan was better too.

But everyone besides Jordan is easily passable. It cracks me up to see mofos on this site overrate the shit out of guys like Kareem, Bird, Magic and Russell. As if these dudes' careers are so stainless and perfect that they can't be passed. LeBron is right on track to being the 2nd GOAT at the very worst.

[Clifton]

. It cracks me up to see mofos on this site overrate the shit out of guys like Kareem, Bird, Magic and Russell. As if these dudes' careers are so stainless and perfect that they can't be passed.
The reason these guys' careers aren't perfect is mostly because they lost to each other.

If there had been no Bird, Kareem would have like 8-9 rings.

And Russell's career actually was stainless and perfect, so...

Lebron has one ring in ten seasons. He formed a superteam and won once with it. That puts him in Oscar Robertson's territory, career-wise, not Bird's. He's lost to the second-tier Duncan once, and it's looking like twice. Never played anyone else great to my knowledge.

He's better than Oscar of course, and I'd entertain notions he's better than Bird too. But Lebron ending up the second best perimeter player ever besides Jordan is looking a lot more unlikely than it did before these playoffs started. He needs to pick one or two spots on the floor to master so that he can go there in important moments and score reliably. If he can do that, then he can surpass everyone. But as of now he's not in that range of arguable GOATs.

[2010splash]

The reason these guys' careers aren't perfect is mostly because they lost to each other.

If there had been no Bird, Kareem would have like 8-9 rings.

And Russell's career actually was stainless and perfect, so...

Lebron has one ring in ten seasons. He formed a superteam and won once with it. That puts him in Oscar Robertson's territory, career-wise, not Bird's. He's lost to the second-tier Duncan once, and it's looking like twice. Never played anyone else great to my knowledge.

He's better than Oscar of course, and I'd entertain notions he's better than Bird too. But Lebron ending up the second best perimeter player ever besides Jordan is looking a lot more unlikely than it did before these playoffs started. He needs to pick one or two spots on the floor to master so that he can go there in important moments and score reliably. If he can do that, then he can surpass everyone. But as of now he's not in that range of arguable GOATs.He formed a superteam and won once in only two seasons he was given a legitimate opportunity to win it all. Unless you seriously think it's fair to expect him to sniff a championship on a team with the likes of Mo Williams, Damon Jones, Andy Varejao, Donyell Marshall, etc, I don't know what point you're trying to make.

LeBron only has 1 title because he wasn't gifted a prime Kareem, Magic, McHale/Parish, prime Shaq, Penny/Kobe to start his career. And again, losing to Duncan's absolutely loaded team when he had lottery-level talent around him is not something to hold against him.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 sport. The other 4 teammates around you influence whether or not you can win titles. LeBron is in a completely different class than Oscar and is definitely a better individual player than Bird ever was. And he did play someone great in the Finals, and simply outclassed him. 2012 featured the second best player in the league, Kevin Durant.

[DirkNowitzki41]

ring and fmvp this year and next year would put him pretty close. media will go ham on that too

imagine kobe fans. "5>3" :lol: that wouldnt be funny anymore

[sportjames23]

Yeah, if I was born then I'd be a Heat fan.

I was old enough to see Jordan play and Lebron is just a better player.



spouts this garbage

16 year-old, but Heat fan since 1988

Jul 2012




:facepalm

[sportjames23]

He just need 1 more title and he's set. He's already the better player. I bet no one can name 1 thing Jordan is better than LeBron at?


The fvck do these trolls come from?



Scoring
Defense
Leadership
Winning
Clutchitude (not a real word, fvck it)


Take your pic, son.

[Derka]

Unless he reels off three straight, I'm not buying in on Lebron over Jordan.

Even then...I'm still not buying it.

Top 10 guaranteed. Top 5? I'll think about it.

[chazzy]

ring and fmvp this year and next year would put him pretty close.
How?

[kenuffff]

Lebron is already the best athlete ever in the NBA, the only person really comparable to his genetic freak-ness at his position is shaq. Lebron is lebron, he is a different type of player than MJ, but here is my main reasoning for saying I don't think lebron could be the GOAT. His defense is better than MJ already just due to the fact he can guard pretty much anyone on the floor due to his physical size and speed. His offense at this time is not as good as MJ. MJ was a better shooter and post up player, also one of Lebron's main problems is freethrows. I feel he should work on being a MUCH higher percentage free throw shooter. All that could change in the next 2-3 years, and would place him beyond MJ talent wise. The problem remains Lebron has never had to face being the only person being double-teamed for an ENTIRE career like MJ did and win 6 championships. I do not think Lebron is the type of player to carry that type of offensive load then play defense the way MJ did on the other end of the court. He'll never have the chance to face that type of pressure due to the fact he plays with wade and bosh. So for that reason I don't think you can consider him the GOAT.

[I<3NBA]

he needs to win 12 rings. srsly.

[ILLsmak]

Yeah, if I was born then I'd be a Heat fan.

I was old enough to see Jordan play and Lebron is just a better player.

This post needs to be saved.

-Smak

[bagelred]

He ABSOLUTELY has a chance. First, we need a neuralizer to wipe all our memories of Michael Jordan.




http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3vnruWoPy1qg3ex2.gif





What just happened?......What was the question?........

[diamenz]

ok.....So Lebron can't never be goat because he was knocked off balance by a 300 pound professional athlete?

stop trolling - you know damn well he flopped like the little trick b!tch he is.

[DMAVS41]

He'd need absurd longevity. I'd say 6 MVP's and 4 titles and 4 finals mvp's and it would start to become a conversation probably.

[rs98762001]

He has two chances. Slim and none.

And slim leaves town if/when the Spurs win this series.

[Bandito]

To be bitten by a Weregoat!!!!!!!!!!!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UURsFGI0ahk/S04Mhq48nMI/AAAAAAAAR1Q/GiRNupQuG4k/s400/GoatBoy2.jpg

[CAstill]

He has two chances. Slim and none.

And slim leaves town if/when the Spurs win this series.


It's so over if Lebron losses this finals. You can't go to three straight finals and only win one and claim your better than the GOAT lol. Lebron would have to make eight more finals and win six of them just to even out the debate. Assuming he loses this finals he would have to finish at 7/11 in finals appearances just to catch up and be one over Jordan. Tying him will do him no good he must surpass Jordan.

[BlackVVaves]

Did someone really say that Bron is already top 5?

[BlackVVaves]

I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.

Didn't you say you've been a Heat fan since 88?

Cotdamn, you Decision Heat fans / Lebron dick pleasers are incompetent at life. Not basketball, life itself.

Get a new hobby, being a human being isn't working for you.

[Heavincent]

Didn't you say you've been a Heat fan since 88?

Cotdamn, you Decision Heat fans / Lebron dick pleasers are incompetent at life. Not basketball, life itself.

Get a new hobby, being a human being isn't working for you.

It's a joke. He's poking fun at Heat "fans".

[Bandito]

Originally Posted by PrettyCool
I'm 16, so I've seen Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan. They were all great but Lebron is just on another level. 4 MVP's at his age is proof of it historically.Wait 16? maybe my math is wrong but you were born in 1997? You didn't see MJ, what you saw was Wiz MJ, he was on crutches at the time (still feasting the competition btw). And you had to have a great memory when you were 4 years old and you saw him play. He put on a Wiz Uniform back in 02.

[CAstill]

Lebron is already the best athlete ever in the NBA, the only person really comparable to his genetic freak-ness at his position is shaq. Lebron is lebron, he is a different type of player than MJ, but here is my main reasoning for saying I don't think lebron could be the GOAT. His defense is better than MJ already just due to the fact he can guard pretty much anyone on the floor due to his physical size and speed. His offense at this time is not as good as MJ. MJ was a better shooter and post up player, also one of Lebron's main problems is freethrows. I feel he should work on being a MUCH higher percentage free throw shooter. All that could change in the next 2-3 years, and would place him beyond MJ talent wise. The problem remains Lebron has never had to face being the only person being double-teamed for an ENTIRE career like MJ did and win 6 championships. I do not think Lebron is the type of player to carry that type of offensive load then play defense the way MJ did on the other end of the court. He'll never have the chance to face that type of pressure due to the fact he plays with wade and bosh. So for that reason I don't think you can consider him the GOAT.


No he's not. On top of Shaq, Wilt and Kemp say **** off too.

[BlackVVaves]

When you're discussing the GOAT, you're talking about a comprehensive measure of inherent talent, mounting skill, individual domination, career achievement, and team success.

Both Jordan and Kareem have 5+ MVPS, 5+ NBA Championships, and their names plastered all over the record books thanks to longevity and sustained greatness.

You people trying to suggest that Lebron would need anything LESS than those qualifications that link those two widely considered GOATs are either biased cavemen or lost in the sauce of the allure the media hype machine has manufactured. 5 MVPS, 4 rings? No sorry, how about at LEAST 5 rings and 6 MVPs to accompany them in the trophy case?

Lebron is undoubtedly one of the best players I've ever seen play this game, and I'm surely confident that when his career is complete, he'll have the career accomplishments and resume ALONG with his superior talent and skill that the likes of Michael, Kareem, Magic, and Bird have...to propel him in the top 5, or 3, maybe even higher....but anything that suggests that today, right now, June whatever 2013, that if Lebron never played another day in basketball after this season, that his career would have been as royally fulfilled as those of MJ and Kareem is both grossly premature and incredibly idiotic.

He's done great things and I believe will continue to do great things. But I don't deal in hypotheses. He has to actually DO those things for them to count. 4 MVPS and 2 rings (if he wins another this year) does NOT usurp 6 MVPS and 6 rings.

Not here, not now, not ever.

[JohnnyA]

He'd need absurd longevity. I'd say 6 MVP's and 4 titles and 4 finals mvp's and it would start to become a conversation probably.

Thats what I'm thinking. If he plays at a high level until he's 38 or so (a possibility given how well his body is holding up) he is going to be racking up quite a few records.

However because of his reputation if he wants to be consensus GOAT hes probably going to need to match Jordans rings/FMVPs/MVPs plus a few extra to make up for 2011.

I don't think any one could seriously argue if he had 7 MVPS and 7 rings as FMVP ( including four in a row)... but thats getting pretty unlikely.

[Heilige]

I agree with this. I think it is still a valid conversation when people compare him to MJ now (not saying he is better than MJ). However, if he doesn't beat spurs, as good as his individual stats/awards is, his resume will not be good enough to be GOAT. 2 finals loss in his prime in 3 years is no GOAT. Still have a shot at top5 though.


Magic lost 4 times in the finals.

[COnDEMnED]

Did someone really say that Bron is already top 5?
Right now he's probably safely stationed around top 15. If he wins another ring he's probably just outside top 10. Maybe 12 or 11. A third ring probably plops him in at number 10.

[Heilige]

When you're discussing the GOAT, you're talking about a comprehensive measure of inherent talent, mounting skill, individual domination, career achievement, and team success.

Both Jordan and Kareem have 5+ MVPS, 5+ NBA Championships, and their names plastered all over the record books thanks to longevity and sustained greatness.

You people trying to suggest that Lebron would need anything LESS than those qualifications that link those two widely considered GOATs are either biased cavemen or lost in the sauce of the allure the media hype machine has manufactured. 5 MVPS, 4 rings? No sorry, how about at LEAST 5 rings and 6 MVPs to accompany them in the trophy case?

Lebron is undoubtedly one of the best players I've ever seen play this game, and I'm surely confident that when his career is complete, he'll have the career accomplishments and resume ALONG with his superior talent and skill that the likes of Michael, Kareem, Magic, and Bird have...to propel him in the top 5, or 3, maybe even higher....but anything that suggests that today, right now, June whatever 2013, that if Lebron never played another day in basketball after this season, that his career would have been as royally fulfilled as those of MJ and Kareem is both grossly premature and incredibly idiotic.

He's done great things and I believe will continue to do great things. But I don't deal in hypotheses. He has to actually DO those things for them to count. 4 MVPS and 2 rings (if he wins another this year) does NOT usurp 6 MVPS and 6 rings.

Not here, not now, not ever.


It is not just about MVPs and Finals MVPs and Championships. People were saying Jordan was the GOAT after winning just his second championship in 1992. LeBron doesn't need to have more MVPs, Finals MVPS, Championships to be considered better than Jordan.

In 92, Jordan was behind in those accolades compared to other GOAT level players, but after his 2nd championship many considered him the GOAT.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Wait 16? maybe my math is wrong but you were born in 1997? You didn't see MJ, what you saw was Wiz MJ, he was on crutches at the time (still feasting the competition btw). And you had to have a great memory when you were 4 years old and you saw him play. He put on a Wiz Uniform back in 02.
My first memories of the game and Jordan were at 4 years old, 1989. So it's not that out of the question. But absolutely, clearly this kid didn't see past prime MJ ('97 and '98) ... nor did he see prime MJ (1990 - 1996) all he saw was old broken down man MJ at 39 and 40 years old. Maybe, like you said if his memory was that good.

[CAstill]

My first memories of the game and Jordan were at 4 years old, 1989. So it's not that out of the question. But absolutely, clearly this kid didn't see past prime MJ ('97 and '98) ... nor did he see prime MJ (1990 - 1996) all he saw was old broken down man MJ at 39 and 40 years old. Maybe, like you said if his memory was that good.


I'm the exact same my first memories of ball was at 4 in 89 too lol.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm the exact same my first memories of ball was at 4 in 89 too lol.
:cheers:

[DJ Leon Smith]

Magic lost 4 times in the finals.

Exactly, and he's not really in the conversation for GOAT. He's GOAT-ish, but most people have either Jordan or Kareem (rings + achievements) as the top two with arguments for Russell (rings) and Wilt (stats) as well. It's hard to argue Magic as the GOAT.

Great not GOAT. Much like LeBron.

I'll ask again. Has a GOAT-level player ever been outscored by an opposition bench player in the NBA Finals? I was going to add in his prime but I don't even think someone like Kobe would have had this come close to happening his his first NBA Finals.

[Straight_Ballin]

I'm old enough to have seen them both play, and Lebron is just better.

You know nothing yet kid, but keep reading and someday you will.

[LongLiveTheKing]

First off he needs to beat the Spurs, and then win more rings but he will never surpass MJ.

[2010splash]

When you're discussing the GOAT, you're talking about a comprehensive measure of inherent talent, mounting skill, individual domination, career achievement, and team success.

Both Jordan and Kareem have 5+ MVPS, 5+ NBA Championships, and their names plastered all over the record books thanks to longevity and sustained greatness.

You people trying to suggest that Lebron would need anything LESS than those qualifications that link those two widely considered GOATs are either biased cavemen or lost in the sauce of the allure the media hype machine has manufactured. 5 MVPS, 4 rings? No sorry, how about at LEAST 5 rings and 6 MVPs to accompany them in the trophy case?

Lebron is undoubtedly one of the best players I've ever seen play this game, and I'm surely confident that when his career is complete, he'll have the career accomplishments and resume ALONG with his superior talent and skill that the likes of Michael, Kareem, Magic, and Bird have...to propel him in the top 5, or 3, maybe even higher....but anything that suggests that today, right now, June whatever 2013, that if Lebron never played another day in basketball after this season, that his career would have been as royally fulfilled as those of MJ and Kareem is both grossly premature and incredibly idiotic.

He's done great things and I believe will continue to do great things. But I don't deal in hypotheses. He has to actually DO those things for them to count. 4 MVPS and 2 rings (if he wins another this year) does NOT usurp 6 MVPS and 6 rings.

Not here, not now, not ever.
So what? You've demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge by comparing Jordan to Kareem on the basis of MVP's and championships. Jordan is far greater than Kareem, and LeBron will finish closest to Jordan when all is said and done. You tout Kareem's awards and titles without putting any of it into proper context.

Jordan led his team as the undisputed top dog 6 times out of 6. Kareem played Robin, aka second fiddle, during three of his titles. For half of Kareem's title runs, he was winning because he played next to a better player.

Furthermore, lunatics like to bring up LeBron's competition to downplay the impressiveness of winning his MVP's, yet Kareem reeled off his MVP's in the WORST era in NBA history. It's common knowledge that the 70's was the worst era ever. Who was Kareem's competition? Bob McAdoo? Wes Unseld? Dave Cowens? Willis Reed? :oldlol: None of them can sniff the jockstraps of a Wade, Kobe, Paul, Durant, etc (players who were LeBron's competition when he was winning MVP's).

To conclude, no, LeBron does not need 6 titles to pass Kareem if he never has the luxury of riding the coattails of a better player like Kareem did. Does he need 6 titles to pass Jordan? Sure, nothing unreasonable with that. But gtfo of here with this Kareem being untouchable BS. LeBron wins 3 titles and he already has a more impressive career. Those 3 titles came as clear Batman. And honestly, the people who watched them play live all say Wilt was a better player than Kareem, and he has as many titles as LeBron will have after this year. LeBron > Kareem. Don't deny the truth.

[jzek]

No chance. Current GOAT standard is:

* Must be undefeated in the Finals
* Must be the FMVP each time in the Finals

Only Jordan meets both criteria and hence, why he is the unanimous GOAT.

[K Xerxes]

No chance. Current GOAT standard is:

* Must be undefeated in the Finals
* Must be the FMVP each time in the Finals

Only Jordan meets both criteria and hence, why he is the unanimous GOAT.

Willis Reed is joint GOAT. :cheers:

[Doranku]

LeBron's MVPs don't really mean much when you look at his contemporaries. The second best player is one of his fanboys. :facepalm

[returnofthemack]

I personally think He doesnt have much shot to be the greatest ever unless he runs off like 7 straight rings lol


exactly. he has almost no chance. at this point he is 1 for 3 in the finals. jordan is 6 for 6. that really says it all. plus when you add in changing teams in his prime and all the choking there is almost no chance. he really does need to win atleast 6 rings total with 4 FMVP and cant lose in another finals to even have a chance. lebron is a great freaking player but he simply hasnt dominated the league. to be the best you need to have a extended period of league domination.

[returnofthemack]

Magic lost 4 times in the finals.


does anyone really thing magic is goat? i dont think so. cant put him above jordan or kareem. now was magic a great player? of course and he is one of the best to ever play but he is not the best and this is what the conversation is all about. who is the greatest of all time? lebron really needs to go out and win alot if he wants to be considered the best and not one of the best. lebron might be more talented then anyone who played the game but so far that hasnt resulted in alot of championships.

[AirFederer]

He`ll never reach top 3, but 4-6 is possible. Just needs a couple more rings and FMVP`s.

Better start now

:banana:

[La Frescobaldi]

exactly. he has almost no chance. at this point he is 1 for 3 in the finals. jordan is 6 for 6. that really says it all. plus when you add in changing teams in his prime and all the choking there is almost no chance. he really does need to win atleast 6 rings total with 4 FMVP and cant lose in another finals to even have a chance. lebron is a great freaking player but he simply hasnt dominated the league. to be the best you need to have a extended period of league domination.

Little known statistic (and off subject of LBJ) but Tim Duncan also has never lost a Finals. He's 4 for 4.
Not saying he's better than Jordan, necessarily. But the point is made - that 6 for 6 stuff really is just so much hot air.
Pippen and P Jax were able to keep a raging ego in control; something that couldn't be done later on with Kobe and Shaq. If the Lakers had continued to play at their 2002 level I have little doubt they would have won 6 or 8 in a row.
Great teams are great teams regardless of 6 for 6 or whatever it is. James in Cleveland was very similar to Jordan in Chicago before Pippen and Jackson showed up.

[Duncan21formvp]

No shot for him. Already lost with HCA 3 years in a row as the hands down favorite despite having proven champions as the man in Ben Wallace, Shaq, Dwyane Wade. Also never led a team that never won to a title, he had to join forces with a guy who got it done as the man in his city.

[returnofthemack]

Little known statistic (and off subject of LBJ) but Tim Duncan also has never lost a Finals. He's 4 for 4.
Not saying he's better than Jordan, necessarily. But the point is made - that 6 for 6 stuff really is just so much hot air.
Pippen and P Jax were able to keep a raging ego in control; something that couldn't be done later on with Kobe and Shaq. If the Lakers had continued to play at their 2002 level I have little doubt they would have won 6 or 8 in a row.
Great teams are great teams regardless of 6 for 6 or whatever it is. James in Cleveland was very similar to Jordan in Chicago before Pippen and Jackson showed up.

i agree that if the laker could have held it together they would have gotten 6 or more rings but they didnt. that just shows you how hard it is to win that much. duncans 4 for 4 is huge, at this point hes already top 5 in my book and if he gets 1 more he would move up. if his teams could have gotten those championships in a 5 or6 year window then he would be a canidate for goat.

im not saying that a great player cant lose any finals to be consdered goat but at this point in lebrons career he is 1 for 3 he has lost more finals then he has won. now if lebron finishes 5 for 8 or 6 for 8 then it will look much better then 1 for 3 or worse 1 for 4. pressure is on lebron now. his legacy will take a massive hit if the heat dont win this year.

[sportjames23]

Little known statistic (and off subject of LBJ) but Tim Duncan also has never lost a Finals. He's 4 for 4.
Not saying he's better than Jordan, necessarily. But the point is made - that 6 for 6 stuff really is just so much hot air.
Pippen and P Jax were able to keep a raging ego in control; something that couldn't be done later on with Kobe and Shaq. If the Lakers had continued to play at their 2002 level I have little doubt they would have won 6 or 8 in a row.
Great teams are great teams regardless of 6 for 6 or whatever it is. James in Cleveland was very similar to Jordan in Chicago before Pippen and Jackson showed up.


Seriously, bro? And you do know that MJ helped make Pippen into the great player he became, right? Or do you think he came to Chicago already an All Star?

[La Frescobaldi]

Seriously, bro? And you do know that MJ helped make Pippen into the great player he became, right? Or do you think he came to Chicago already an All Star?

seriously, bro.

No Pippen, no rings. Simple as that.

[BBallZen83]

I don't think he has a shot at GOAT. Jordan came at the perfect time, made basketball truly global, had the perfect career, and just gave you that sense of magic that anything was possible. It was just a confluence of events meeting immense talent and determination. Like it or not he will be the Shakespeare of basketball 100 years from now.

I think Lebron has the potential to go down as the most complete player of all time, as in having tthe most complete all around skill set. If he wins another title this year along with a finals mvp, that should push him into top 10. As far as GOAT lists I think his ceiling is top 5.

[sportjames23]

seriously, bro.

No Pippen, no rings. Simple as that.


LOL, no MJ, no making the playoffs. No All-Star games. No Olympic invites. No Hall of Fame.

Simple as that.

[La Frescobaldi]

LOL, no MJ, no making the playoffs. No All-Star games. No Olympic invites. No Hall of Fame.

Simple as that.
probably true. So what? What's the point? Nobody is calling Pippen the greatest ever.

My point is totally valid.

Do you even have one?

[Blackghozt]

I would have to say he is will be the greatest Player Ever when his Career is Over. Jordan and Kobe only had one thing Lebron doesn't have, and that is Phil Jackson. How many rings does Kobe & Jordan have without Phil. A big fat 0.

[guy]

probably true. So what? What's the point? Nobody is calling Pippen the greatest ever.

My point is totally valid.

Do you even have one?

Your point actually isn't valid at all. You're talking about a grand total of 3 years where Jordan didn't play with Pippen as a Bull. It is completely ridiculous to come up with that conclusion given that small of a sample size.

[dh144498]

I would have to say he is will be the greatest Player Ever when his Career is Over. Jordan and Kobe only had one thing Lebron doesn't have, and that is Phil Jackson. How many rings does Kobe & Jordan have without Phil. A big fat 0.

why would having Phil JAckson automatically make MJ not the GOAT? what kind of logic is this?
Hey look I can nitpick something arbitrary Lebron has that MJ and Kobe don't as well: Lebron played with 2 superstars in their primes while MJ and Kobe only had 1 each in their primes. I guess lebron cannot be in the GOAT conversation.
:coleman:

[dh144498]

lebron has no chance to be in the GOAT conversation unless he win like 8 championships while producing at a high level. 2011 really left a mark on his legacy.

[sportjames23]

Your point actually isn't valid at all. You're talking about a grand total of 3 years where Jordan didn't play with Pippen as a Bull. It is completely ridiculous to come up with that conclusion given that small of a sample size.


Thank you.

[sportjames23]

probably true. So what? What's the point? Nobody is calling Pippen the greatest ever.

My point is totally valid.

Do you even have one?


My point is trolls like you use Pippen and Jackson to try to play down MJ's accomplishments.

"MJ didn't win without Pippen"

Yeah, and what did Pippen win without MJ?

"MJ didn't win until Phil came along"

Yeah, and what did Phil accomplish before he coached MJ? Did Phil ever take a bottom-dwelling team and make them winners?

[Blackghozt]

why would having Phil JAckson automatically make MJ not the GOAT? what kind of logic is this?
Hey look I can nitpick something arbitrary Lebron has that MJ and Kobe don't as well: Lebron played with 2 superstars in their primes while MJ and Kobe only had 1 each in their primes. I guess lebron cannot be in the GOAT conversation.
:coleman:
Sorry but Wade is not in his prime anymore and Bosh is playing Mediocre. If jordan didnt have any titles we probably wont consider him the Goat. It took phil Jacksons coaching to make any of the titles Possible. Over the last 2 decades Phil Jackson got like 11 rings. Coaching makes all the difference. Give Lebron Phil Jackson and see how many titles he will win.

[guy]

Sorry but Wade is not in his prime anymore and Bosh is playing Mediocre. If jordan didnt have any titles we probably wont consider him the Goat. It took phil Jacksons coaching to make any of the titles Possible. Over the last 2 decades Phil Jackson got like 11 rings. Coaching makes all the difference. Give Lebron Phil Jackson and see how many titles he will win.

You don't know that.

[Ca$H]

I want to enter LeBron's backdoor.

:biggums:

[RoseCity07]

He has to win at the very least 4 rings. I think he should surpass Jordan if he wants to slam the door shut on this topic. I know Jordan will always be the better shooter but that doesn't make an overall player. Lebron can still be a slightly above average shooter and be the GOAT. I know Lebron doesn't have Jordan's magic and drive but he does have the talent.

[BigTicket]

Lebron could win another 10 rings, and he still wouldn't be the GOAT. Accomplishments is only one of the things to consider.

What's holding Lebron back from being GOAT is that he simply is not as dominant as Wilt/Jordan/Kareem in their prime, and I don't see that changing.

So the answer is no, Lebron does not have a chance to be the GOAT, his ceiling is top 5.

[blacknapalm]

Lebron could win another 10 rings, and he still wouldn't be the GOAT. Accomplishments is only one of the things to consider.

What's holding Lebron back from being GOAT is that he simply is not as dominant as Wilt/Jordan/Kareem in their prime, and I don't see that changing.

So the answer is no, Lebron does not have a chance to be the GOAT, his ceiling is top 5.

win another 10? that's a bit extreme. i sort of agree w/ your overall premise but be serious. what if he wins another 10 with a DPOY or two thrown in? a scoring title or a couple more MVPs? while putting up great, longevity numbers? ya, i don't see him cracking top 3 right now but he could certainly be in the top 4. and hell, he could pass up wilt if he ends up being dominant in the playoffs (not this year so far, but the course can change). you have to explain your arbitrary rules.

[Alan Ogg]

7 Finals MVPs for GOAT. He can crack into the top 5 with 3 FMVPs.

[DMV2]

Little known statistic (and off subject of LBJ) but Tim Duncan also has never lost a Finals. He's 4 for 4.
Not saying he's better than Jordan, necessarily. But the point is made - that 6 for 6 stuff really is just so much hot air.
It's not just 6-for-6 or 4-for-4, you have to look at the content behind those championship. The obvious one is the 6 F-MVP with 6 rings but then you have the following as well.

-Jordan's 6-for-6 was accompanied by two 3-peats. Duncan never repeated as champion.

-4 of Jordan's 6 championship seasons came with an MVP award.

All 6 championship seasons, you can say that MJ was the best scorer, best player in the league. Duncan wasn't always the best during his generation.

[DMV2]

6 rings (with at least 5 F-MVPs) but he has to win 4 straight championships with 4 F-MVP and two more regular season MVPs to be GOAT in my book.

So...
6 rings to match MJ
6 MVPs to top MJ
I think it's OK with 5 F-MVP, Finals MVP don't always go to the best player
The most important feat is the 4-peat, something MJ didn't do b/c of retirements.

I think that's fair and reasonable. LeBron would be the GOAT.

[BigTicket]

win another 10? that's a bit extreme. i sort of agree w/ your overall premise but be serious. what if he wins another 10 with a DPOY or two thrown in? a scoring title or a couple more MVPs? while putting up great, longevity numbers? ya, i don't see him cracking top 3 right now but he could certainly be in the top 4. and hell, he could pass up wilt if he ends up being dominant in the playoffs (not this year so far, but the course can change). you have to explain your arbitrary rules.

It's not arbitrary, nor is it new. Most people have the same standard, which is why Bill Russell is almost never mentioned as the GOAT, even though he has the most accomplisments.

[La Frescobaldi]

My point is trolls like you use Pippen and Jackson to try to play down MJ's accomplishments.

"MJ didn't win without Pippen"

Yeah, and what did Pippen win without MJ?

"MJ didn't win until Phil came along"

Yeah, and what did Phil accomplish before he coached MJ? Did Phil ever take a bottom-dwelling team and make them winners?

Disagreeing with somebody doesn't make you a troll. you need to lighten up.

And yes, P Jax did just exactly that. Over and over.

* He led his high school team to 2 state titles as a player.
* Led his college team to conference championships as a player.
* He coached a Little League team to the championship when he was still just a kid.
* Then he was a critical piece of the bottom dwelling Knicks who promptly went to 4 Finals in a row.
* Then he coached the Albany Poltroons to a championship in the old CBA.
ALL of those were bottom dwellers until Jax showed up, dude.
Don't even go there about Phil Jackson.

[La Frescobaldi]

It's not just 6-for-6 or 4-for-4, you have to look at the content behind those championship. The obvious one is the 6 F-MVP with 6 rings but then you have the following as well.

-Jordan's 6-for-6 was accompanied by two 3-peats. Duncan never repeated as champion.

-4 of Jordan's 6 championship seasons came with an MVP award.

All 6 championship seasons, you can say that MJ was the best scorer, best player in the league. Duncan wasn't always the best during his generation.
I agree with all that.

I also know Mike never had to face those 2000-2002 Shaq/Kobe Lakers being led by P Jax & Tex Winter. Could the Bulls have beat them? I'm skeptical that either team would have demolished the other, nor could either team have repeated against the other. Meanwhile, Timmy had to face that Laker squad, which Mike never did.

It's a lot more subtle than a player winning it all by himself - as you know!