How would a 22 year old Kobe on the 2007 Cavs do in finals?

[Derivative]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.

[jstern]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.
You have a point.

[9erempiree]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.

What IF's...the sad thing about this thread it isn't even a what if.

Just a stupid statement.

[Bandito]

And this thread wont get deleted even though it is a troll bait. ISH logic...

[9erempiree]

We know where Kobe ranks all time and like most people we have him in the top 5.

It doesn't really matter what others think. Why the OP bring up Kobe?

This is why certain players are better than others. The ability to get opposing fans thinking about them.

MJ did that. Magic did that. Kobe is doing it now.

[dbk123]

We know where Kobe ranks all time and like most people we have him in the top 5.

It doesn't really matter what others think. Why the OP bring up Kobe?

This is why certain players are better than others. The ability to get opposing fans thinking about them.

MJ did that. Magic did that. Kobe is doing it now.
at best kobe is top 8-9.

[KG215]

Between the Kobe fans and LeBron fans, I'd say the same 3-5 threads have been recycled several hundred times each in just the last few years.

[CAstill]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.


Shut up! He would of won the finals. Kobe with Big Z, Side show bob Varejao, Gibson, Damon Jones, and Gooden in the East at that time playing the exact same competition that Lebron played to get into the finals was a way better team. 22 year old Kobe would have killed the Spurs and cemented his legacy.

[9erempiree]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.

No. He can't lead big Z.

They never played together.

Lebron and Big Z played together though and he failed. That's pretty much facts.

[COnDEMnED]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.
Is this addition by subtraction? It comes out to the same amount of choke right? In your scenario it's worse than letting everyone think he chokes when he's young and inexperienced. The way you say it means he choked when he was in his prime with Wade and Bosh on his team. Which is worse? I'm not convinced you thought this through completely.

[KG215]

Shut up! He would of won the finals. Kobe with Big Z, Side show bob Varejao, Gibson, Damon Jones, and Gooden in the East at that time playing the exact same competition that Lebron played to get into the finals was a way better team. 22 year old Kobe would have killed the Spurs and cemented his legacy.
I'm hoping you're not serious?

[28renyoy]

LeBron averaged 22 ppg, shot 36% from the field, 20% from 3, and 69% from the line while averaging 6 turnovers per game...so not any worse than LeBron?

[qrich]

16-0

Win playoff games by an average of 39 points a night

[Ikill]

In game 3 the Cavs lost by 3 points Lebron took 23 shots to score 25 points and he had 5 turnovers. If Lebron plays even a little bit better Cavs win. Same thing in game 4 Cavs lose by one point if Lebron plays a little bit better they win. The series would of been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland if Lebron goes from flat out horrible to bad.

The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure. Game 1 is also very winnable they lost by 9 points with Lebron scoring 14 points on 25% with 6 turnovers an average game by a 22 year old Kobe and the 07 Cavs could win game 1 too. 3-1 lead going to Cleveland so if either a 22 year old Kobe or Lebron have just an average series they could very well beat the 07 spurs with the 07 Cavs.

If a 22 year old Kobe plays like he did against the 01 Spurs while playing the 07 SPurs the Cavs would win for sure.

[chazzy]

01 Kobe was pretty damn good actually.. had a jumper

[COnDEMnED]

In game 3 the Cavs lost by 3 points Lebron took 23 shots to score 25 points and he had 5 turnovers. If Lebron plays even a little bit better Cavs win. Same thing in game 4 Cavs lose by one point if Lebron plays a little bit better they win. The series would of been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland if Lebron goes from flat out horrible to bad.

The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure. Game 1 is also very winnable they lost by 9 points with Lebron scoring 14 points on 25% with 6 turnovers an average game by a 22 year old Kobe and the 07 Cavs could win game 1 too. 3-1 lead going to Cleveland so if either a 22 year old Kobe or Lebron have just an average series they could very well beat the 07 spurs with the 07 Cavs.

If a 22 year old Kobe plays like he did against the 01 Spurs while playing the 07 SPurs the Cavs would win for sure.
This has to sting to whomever had an agenda in this thread.. Lethal.

[CAstill]

I'm hoping you're not serious?


No I'm not. That Cavs roster made a finals through some weak competition. Kobe by 2002 was as good as 07 bron and I don't ever remember Kobe having a team that played defense as good as that Cavs roster, EVER. Kobe would of improved that roster and would of made a difference in the finals, whether or not he wins is probably debatable but he isn't getting swept that's for sure.

[Jameerthefear]

In game 3 the Cavs lost by 3 points Lebron took 23 shots to score 25 points and he had 5 turnovers. If Lebron plays even a little bit better Cavs win. Same thing in game 4 Cavs lose by one point if Lebron plays a little bit better they win. The series would of been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland if Lebron goes from flat out horrible to bad.

The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure. Game 1 is also very winnable they lost by 9 points with Lebron scoring 14 points on 25% with 6 turnovers an average game by a 22 year old Kobe and the 07 Cavs could win game 1 too. 3-1 lead going to Cleveland so if either a 22 year old Kobe or Lebron have just an average series they could very well beat the 07 spurs with the 07 Cavs.

If a 22 year old Kobe plays like he did against the 01 Spurs while playing the 07 SPurs the Cavs would win for sure.
:lol
OP's agenda has been crushed

[Heavincent]

01 Kobe was better than 07 Lebron.

[hitmanyr2k]

In game 3 the Cavs lost by 3 points Lebron took 23 shots to score 25 points and he had 5 turnovers. If Lebron plays even a little bit better Cavs win. Same thing in game 4 Cavs lose by one point if Lebron plays a little bit better they win. The series would of been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland if Lebron goes from flat out horrible to bad.

The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure. Game 1 is also very winnable they lost by 9 points with Lebron scoring 14 points on 25% with 6 turnovers an average game by a 22 year old Kobe and the 07 Cavs could win game 1 too. 3-1 lead going to Cleveland so if either a 22 year old Kobe or Lebron have just an average series they could very well beat the 07 spurs with the 07 Cavs.

If a 22 year old Kobe plays like he did against the 01 Spurs while playing the 07 SPurs the Cavs would win for sure.

Before anyone starts stupidly saying Kobe would do any better than Lebron against the '07 Spurs based on his play against the '01 Spurs did it ever occur to any of you that the Spurs had a shit backcourt with midgets (6'2 Antonio Daniels) and geriatric players (Terry Porter) in '01? There was no player on the Spurs to put any pressure on Kobe whatsoever on EITHER end of the floor. There was no Bruce Bowen. There was no Manu Ginobili. There was no Tony Parker. It was Christmas in May for Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Before anyone starts stupidly saying Kobe would do any better than Lebron against the '07 Spurs based on his play against the '01 Spurs did it ever occur to any of you that the Spurs had a shit backcourt with midgets (6'2 Antonio Daniels) and geriatric players (Terry Porter) in '01? There was no player on the Spurs to put any pressure on Kobe whatsoever on EITHER end of the floor. There was no Bruce Bowen. There was no Manu Ginobili. There was no Tony Parker. It was Christmas in May for Kobe.
A player's height has nothing to do with if they are a quality defender or not ... 72 year old, 6'2 Jason Kidd had LeBron in handcuffs in 2011. A quality defender is a quality defender, regardless of height.

[hitmanyr2k]

A player's height has nothing to do with if they are a quality defender or not ... 72 year old, 6'2 Jason Kidd had LeBron in handcuffs in 2011. A quality defender is a quality defender, regardless of height.

Antonio Daniels isn't Jason Kidd. And a 6'6 guard would love to shoot over a 6'2 guard all day long rather than a 6'7 forward defensive specialist that'll make you work for everything you get.

[CAstill]

Antonio Daniels isn't Jason Kidd. And a 6'6 guard would love to shoot over a 6'2 guard all day long rather than a 6'7 forward defensive specialist that'll make you work for everything you get.

It doesn't matter what kind of defender it is. Kobe 01 -02 is scoring on anyone in league history. We don't have to use his 01 stats to know that he would light up the Spurs. You still bypassing the point that 01 Kobe makes that Cav's roster better defensively something Lebron couldn't do even though the team was a defensive powerhouse lol.

[hitmanyr2k]

It doesn't matter what kind of defender it is. Kobe 01 -02 is scoring on anyone in league history. We don't have to use his 01 stats to know that he would light up the Spurs. You still bypassing the point that 01 Kobe makes that Cav's roster better defensively something Lebron couldn't do even though the team was a defensive powerhouse lol.

Kobe '02 wasn't putting up any kind of great efficiency or high scoring games against Bowen in the playoffs unless he took a ton of shots. It sure as hell wasn't a repeat performance of '01. That's for damn sure. And '03 it got worse when he had to contend with Bowen on one end and worry about Stephen Jackson and Ginobili on the other.

[PickernRoller]

*Picks up the phone.
*Calls 911.
*Asks for OP to be found.

[deja vu]

That Cavs team was crap. Put prime Shaq or MJ in there instead of LeBron and they still would not beat the Spurs. They made the Finals because of weak competition in the East.

[KG215]

It doesn't matter what kind of defender it is. Kobe 01 -02 is scoring on anyone in league history. We don't have to use his 01 stats to know that he would light up the Spurs. You still bypassing the point that 01 Kobe makes that Cav's roster better defensively something Lebron couldn't do even though the team was a defensive powerhouse lol.
That's highly debatable in this particular instance. At least to the extent he would've been much more efficient and would be scoring very many more points than LeBron under the same circumstances. Bit different being hounded by Bruce Bowen with most of the help defense being focused on you than being guarded by Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter's corpse. The only two players on that '01 team with a sub-105 DRtg in the playoffs were Duncan and Robinson. That was the strength of their defense. Their perimeter defenders weren't anything special. And that was still a few years before the handcheck rules were changed that eventually opened things up more for perimeter players.

I'm sorry but I don't see 22 year old Kobe doing much more than what LeBron managed with that cast. He likely gets them to the Finals, but a sweep at the hands of the Spurs is still a very real possibility. The series doesn't go further than 5 games.

[Ikill]

Before anyone starts stupidly saying Kobe would do any better than Lebron against the '07 Spurs based on his play against the '01 Spurs did it ever occur to any of you that the Spurs had a shit backcourt with midgets (6'2 Antonio Daniels) and geriatric players (Terry Porter) in '01? There was no player on the Spurs to put any pressure on Kobe whatsoever on EITHER end of the floor. There was no Bruce Bowen. There was no Manu Ginobili. There was no Tony Parker. It was Christmas in May for Kobe.
Do you understand how bad Lebron was Kobe wouldn't need to do much to play better. If Kobe plays just a little bit better than Lebron the series is 2-2 with game 5 at home.

[CAstill]

That's highly debatable in this particular instance. At least to the extent he would've been much more efficient and would be scoring very many more points than LeBron under the same circumstances. Bit different being hounded by Bruce Bowen with most of the help defense being focused on you than being guarded by Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter's corpse. The only two players on that '01 team with a sub-105 DRtg in the playoffs were Duncan and Robinson. That was the strength of their defense. Their perimeter defenders weren't anything special. And that was still a few years before the handcheck rules were changed that eventually opened things up more for perimeter players.

I'm sorry but I don't see 22 year old Kobe doing much more than what LeBron managed with that cast. He likely gets them to the Finals, but a sweep at the hands of the Spurs is still a very real possibility. The series doesn't go further than 5 games.


What? Kobe has killed Bowen so many times it's not funny. Kobe put up these stats before handcheck rules, so miss me with that. Kobe was scoring in the lane on Duncan not just crossing the old perimeter players for jump shots and not challenging their defensive strength. This was young Kobe who wanted to foul you out games and put the pressure on while making a statement. No matter what though everybody still doesn't address the point that Kobe would make the Cavs better defensively. That matters and would make a difference. Kobe would of won the chip.

[Ikill]

That's highly debatable in this particular instance. At least to the extent he would've been much more efficient and would be scoring very many more points than LeBron under the same circumstances. Bit different being hounded by Bruce Bowen with most of the help defense being focused on you than being guarded by Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter's corpse. The only two players on that '01 team with a sub-105 DRtg in the playoffs were Duncan and Robinson. That was the strength of their defense. Their perimeter defenders weren't anything special. And that was still a few years before the handcheck rules were changed that eventually opened things up more for perimeter players.

I'm sorry but I don't see 22 year old Kobe doing much more than what LeBron managed with that cast. He likely gets them to the Finals, but a sweep at the hands of the Spurs is still a very real possibility. The series doesn't go further than 5 games.
They lost by 1 point in game 4 and 3 points in game 3 there is a much bigger chance the series goes to 6 games than the series being a sweep.

[Cleverness]

Between the Kobe fans and LeBron fans, I'd say the same 3-5 threads have been recycled several hundred times each in just the least few years.

:rockon:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Lebron's 2007 finals are a black mark in a way not because he lost, but because of how poorly he played. Although I won't really judge him based on that too much because he wasn't in his prime yet. Part of that was him being exposed as a terrible shooter. For the entire season, he shot just 34.6% from 16-23 feet, 31.9% on 3s and 69.8% from the line.

2001 Kobe was a better player than 2007 Lebron. He was figuring out how to incorporate his individual game into the team concept much of the '01 season, but figured it out come playoff time and his playmaking during the playoffs was at least as impressive as Lebron's, imo considering he did it running the triangle, and was at least as good of a rebounder, a better defender, and a better, more versatile scorer.



The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure.

It was actually 33/7/7, but still a remarkable performance, though defensive rating is deceptive in this case because the '01 Spurs had no real perimeter defenders to throw at him while the '07 Spurs had Bowen.

[KG215]

You're right Kobe stans. Forgive me. 22 year old Kobe takes the 2007 Spurs -- with breakout Tony Parker, and Duncan and Ginobili still in their primes, with Bruce Bowen on the perimeter for defense -- to at least 6 games with the 2007 Cavs supporting cast.

[2010splash]

Shut up! He would of won the finals. Kobe with Big Z, Side show bob Varejao, Gibson, Damon Jones, and Gooden in the East at that time playing the exact same competition that Lebron played to get into the finals was a way better team. 22 year old Kobe would have killed the Spurs and cemented his legacy.
:roll: :oldlol: :applause: :facepalm

Kobe has never achieved any team success without prime Shaq or Gasol/Odom/Bynum. He's proven he needs absolutely stacked teams to win anything. No effing way does he even lead that team to the Finals. I'd say he loses in the second round, with his ceiling being losing to the Pistons in the ECF. No way he gets past them.

LeBron on the other hand led that shit team to the Finals and led two other shit teams to 66 and 61 wins. One guy is clearly more capable of leading a bad team to success.

[CAstill]

You're right Kobe stans. Forgive me. 22 year old Kobe takes the 2007 Spurs -- with breakout Tony Parker, and Duncan and Ginobili still in their primes, with Bruce Bowen on the perimeter for defense -- to at least 6 games with the 2007 Cavs supporting cast.


You went from reasonably arguing to just being ignorant why? Tony Parker woud obviously still be a problem and Bowen would make it more difficult for Kobe but it's not Far fetch to think that a better defensive Cavs roster with Kobe leading the team would do better.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: :oldlol: :applause: :facepalm

Kobe has never achieved any team success without prime Shaq or Gasol/Odom/Bynum. He's proven he needs absolutely stacked teams to win anything. No effing way does he even lead that team to the Finals. I'd say he loses in the second round, with his ceiling being losing to the Pistons in the ECF. No way he gets past them.

Funny how often this is thrown around, yet it's usually used incorrectly, and this is a perfect example.


LeBron on the other hand led that shit team to the Finals and led two other shit teams to 66 and 61 wins. One guy is clearly more capable of leading a bad team to success.

Massive exaggerations.

[Trollsmasher]

Those Cavs are not coming out of the 1st round, if they even make playoffs.

[CAstill]

:roll: :oldlol: :applause: :facepalm

Kobe has never achieved any team success without prime Shaq or Gasol/Odom/Bynum. He's proven he needs absolutely stacked teams to win anything. No effing way does he even lead that team to the Finals. I'd say he loses in the second round, with his ceiling being losing to the Pistons in the ECF. No way he gets past them.

LeBron on the other hand led that shit team to the Finals and led two other shit teams to 66 and 61 wins. One guy is clearly more capable of leading a bad team to success.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So stupid. Kobe won with prime Shaq that's a good thing dummy, not bad. Shows that when given the chance Kobe capitalizes no problem. You bring up Gasol/Odum/Bynum like that means anything. He brought those guys to finals like nothing. Where are they now? Gasol constantly used in trade talks, Lamar stuck on clipper bench and Bynum hasn't even played since over a year lol. Kobe makes that Cavs roster better stay mad. Kobe>>>Lebron. Kobe leading Smush, Luke, and Kwame to the playoffs is more successful than Bron leading any of those Cavs rosters anywhere.

[pauk]

That Kobe would have to first do the impossible and get that 2007 team to Finals first....

[CAstill]

Funny how often this is thrown around, yet it's usually used incorrectly, and this is a perfect example.

Don't worry about the Bron troll he's very stupid.

Massive exaggerations.


Of course they are because he wants to prop Lebron over Kobe by making up this fake impact that Lebron makes when we know it's complete bullshit.

[Heavincent]

That Kobe would have to first do the impossible and get that 2007 team to Finals first....

01 Kobe was a better player than 07 Lebron, so getting to the finals would be the easy part.

[ShaqAttack3234]

01 Kobe was a better player than 07 Lebron, so getting to the finals would be the easy part.

Eh, it's not as simple as who the better player is. There's also match ups and how well each player fits on a given team, which is difficult to say. I do think Lebron is better in more ball-dominant roles, though I think '01 Kobe was a better player than '07 Lebron as I previously stated.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Antonio Daniels isn't Jason Kidd. And a 6'6 guard would love to shoot over a 6'2 guard all day long rather than a 6'7 forward defensive specialist that'll make you work for everything you get.
Then say Antonio Daniels sucks at defense. It has literally nothing to do with their height. Three of the best on ball defenders in the league currently are shorter than 6'4.

Longer defenders work better on Kobe because his game is jump shot centric ... if he was looking to penetrate more, longer defenders are generally slower than smaller defenders.

[Ikill]

Lebron's 2007 finals are a black mark in a way not because he lost, but because of how poorly he played. Although I won't really judge him based on that too much because he wasn't in his prime yet. Part of that was him being exposed as a terrible shooter. For the entire season, he shot just 34.6% from 16-23 feet, 31.9% on 3s and 69.8% from the line.

2001 Kobe was a better player than 2007 Lebron. He was figuring out how to incorporate his individual game into the team concept much of the '01 season, but figured it out come playoff time and his playmaking during the playoffs was at least as impressive as Lebron's, imo considering he did it running the triangle, and was at least as good of a rebounder, a better defender, and a better, more versatile scorer.



It was actually 33/7/7, but still a remarkable performance, though defensive rating is deceptive in this case because the '01 Spurs had no real perimeter defenders to throw at him while the '07 Spurs had Bowen.
I think the 36/9/7 i got was his average for the first 3 games I still think he plays better than Lebron even if he goes against better defenders.

[Heavincent]

Eh, it's not as simple as who the better player is. There's also match ups and how well each player fits on a given team, which is difficult to say. I do think Lebron is better in more ball-dominant roles, though I think '01 Kobe was a better player than '07 Lebron as I previously stated.

Bron was going through the shithole that was the Eastern conference though. The East was probably about as bad as I've ever seen it. The best team he faced was a washed up Pistons squad.

[Magic 32]

O yea wait, a 22 year old kobe with Big Z can't lead a team to the finals.


All the stupid Kobe fans using Lebron's 2007 loss as a reason to criticize him.:facepalm :facepalm

Lebron's 2011 finals was a choke, 2007 wasn't.

Ok, how about this one......

How would a 28 year old Kobe (2005-06) on the 2011 Heat do in finals?

http://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/cm-32183-050abcc1f89bb4.gif

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bron was going through the shithole that was the Eastern conference though. The East was probably about as bad as I've ever seen it. The best team he faced was a washed up Pistons squad.

I'm not arguing that he couldn't do it. Just that the better player doesn't necessarily have more success on any given team.

[CAstill]

Eh, it's not as simple as who the better player is. There's also match ups and how well each player fits on a given team, which is difficult to say. I do think Lebron is better in more ball-dominant roles, though I think '01 Kobe was a better player than '07 Lebron as I previously stated.


Let me ask you a couple of questions, obviously these are all opinions so we'll see how you respond.

Would you agree that Kobe 01 was a better defensive player than Bron 07?
Would you agree that the Cavs team identity and strength was defense and rebounding? Do you feel as if Kobe 01 could produce the same offensive results as Bron? Who was better offensively between Bron 07 and Kobe 01? Would 01 Kobe make that Cavs roster better defensively? Who do you was more mentally tougher Kobe 01 or Bron 07?

[Heavincent]

I'm not arguing that he couldn't do it. Just that the better player doesn't necessarily have more success on any given team.

I don't think he would beat the Spurs either, but I have no doubt he'd play much better than Lebron did.

[imdaman99]

why do you make threads about kobe everyday? bruceblitz :facepalm

this guy follows kobe on twitter, and stalks kobe everyday smh

[Young X]

Kobe would definetly do better against the Spurs. Do people understand how horrible Lebron was in that series? 6 turnovers per game? 22 points on 22 shots? 36% shooting?

Even if Kobe duplicates his 2004 series vs Detroit, Cleveland would have a better chance against the Spurs, that's not even considering how badly Kobe cooks the Spurs in the playoffs.

[tazb]

Thought the OP was being serious before I entered this thread.

But well done. Kobe can't lead any team that doesn't have two 7 footers and a HOF coach.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Would you agree that Kobe 01 was a better defensive player than Bron 07?

Yes


Would you agree that the Cavs team identity and strength was defense and rebounding?

Yes, well that, and Lebron in general. It's tough to just sum up the Cavs as a defensive team that rebounds well without mentioning Lebron, but yeah, they were undoubtedly superior in those aspects than they were offensively.


Do you feel as if Kobe 01 could produce the same offensive results as Bron?

Most likely, though he'd probably do it in a different way(more of a scorer, less of a facilitator) but in general I think Lebron is better for those ball-dominant roles compared to what I've seen from Kobe in similar roles(2004-2005 and 2011-2012)


Who was better offensively between Bron 07 and Kobe 01? Would 01 Kobe make that Cavs roster better defensively? Who do you was more mentally tougher Kobe 01 or Bron 07?

Kobe was the better offensive player as far as ability, and in terms of impact during the 2001 playoffs. As far as whether he makes them better defensively? I think it's fairly negligible. They were already elite, and I think they remain pretty similar, though they don't get worse defensively.

[ripthekik]

That Kobe would have to first do the impossible and get that 2007 team to Finals first....
In the weak East that's not an achievement at all.



:roll: :oldlol: :applause: :facepalm

Kobe has never achieved any team success without prime Shaq or Gasol/Odom/Bynum. He's proven he needs absolutely stacked teams to win anything.
lol.. coming from a lebron fan, who's only won once after teaming up with 2 other all stars in their primes, including an ex-FMVP. :applause:

[CAstill]

Yes



Yes, well that, and Lebron in general. It's tough to just sum up the Cavs as a defensive team that rebounds well without mentioning Lebron, but yeah, they were undoubtedly superior in those aspects than they were offensively.



Most likely, though he'd probably do it in a different way(more of a scorer, less of a facilitator) but in general I think Lebron is better for those ball-dominant roles compared to what I've seen from Kobe in similar roles(2004-2005 and 2011-2012)



Kobe was the better offensive player as far as ability, and in terms of impact during the 2001 playoffs. As far as whether he makes them better defensively? I think it's fairly negligible. They were already elite, and I think they remain pretty similar, though they don't get worse defensively.


I don't understand this part, where is the 3peat years? I know you're the super Shaq fan and all but even you can admit that Kobe was playing facilitator for the whole 3peat. I've never seen Lebron do anything close to what Kobe did those years. Look at him right now as we speak. Wade is injured but there is no reason why he doesn't place Bosh in way better positions to score or at the bare minimum give him a couple dump off passes to get his rhythm going. I do agree that Kobe would score more but as long as those Cavs hit their shots there will be no difference in impact of role. Kobe is just better at it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't understand this part, where is the 3peat years? I know you're the super Shaq fan and all but even you can admit that Kobe was playing facilitator for the whole 3peat. I've never seen Lebron do anything close to what Kobe did those years. Look at him right now as we speak. Wade is injured but there is no reason why he doesn't place Bosh in way better positions to score or at the bare minimum give him a couple dump off passes to get his rhythm going. I do agree that Kobe would score more but as long as those Cavs hit their shots there will be no difference in impact of role. Kobe is just better at it.

Yes, he did an excellent job as facilitator from the 2001 playoffs on, but it was still different. In the triangle, you can't be as ball-dominant, or even close as on a team like the 2007 Cavs whose offense was pretty much Lebron-ball. Especially with so many touches going to Shaq in the post.

As it is, I'm personally not a fan of that more ball-dominant style, which is why I tend to think people often greatly overrate the impact of a star point guard.

[CAstill]

Yes, he did an excellent job as facilitator from the 2001 playoffs on, but it was still different. In the triangle, you can't be as ball-dominant, or even close as on a team like the 2007 Cavs whose offense was pretty much Lebron-ball. Especially with so many touches going to Shaq in the post.

As it is, I'm personally not a fan of that more ball-dominant style, which is why I tend to think people often greatly overrate the impact of a star point guard.


????????????

I feel like you're just agreeing with me lol. If Kobe did it excellently on an offense by your own admission schemed to minimize ball dominance compared to one which is, how is Bron better at it? Last time I checked Bron facilitator role netted zero rings and 2 finals losses. He goes into score mode and has one ring. Kobe pulled 3 rings in a facilitator role and won a back to back in score mode. I also am not a fan of ball dominant point guards and point forwards either and think their stats are inflated. That's why I take Mj and Kobe over Bron and Oscar.

[ShaqAttack3234]

????????????

I feel like you're just agreeing with me lol. If Kobe did it excellently on an offense by your own admission schemed to minimize ball dominance compared to one which is, how is Bron better at it? Last time I checked Bron facilitator role netted zero rings and 2 finals losses. He goes into score mode and has one ring. Kobe pulled 3 rings in a facilitator role and won a back to back in score mode. I also am not a fan of ball dominant point guards and point forwards either and think their stats are inflated. That's why I take Mj and Kobe over Bron and Oscar.

Lebron was still in the facilitator role as well in Miami, though Miami Lebron is a much better player than '07 Lebron, so I think that's pretty irrelevant. Just like Kobe was still the facilitator on the Lakers in '09 and '10.

I'd say Kobe's role was different in 2000. The facilitator role was really split between Shaq in the post and both Kobe and Harper on the perimeter. Due to Kobe's youth, and the Lakers first year in the triangle in addition to Harper's experience in the offense for the 5 seasons in Chicago, he had a pretty significant part in running the offense.

But back to the point, Kobe's facilitator role on the Lakers was different than the role he'd have in Cleveland under Mike Brown since there was no triangle.

More importantly, I'm not really arguing whether Kobe would have more or less success on that team at the same age.

[CAstill]

Lebron was still in the facilitator role as well in Miami, though Miami Lebron is a much better player than '07 Lebron, so I think that's pretty irrelevant. Just like Kobe was still the facilitator on the Lakers in '09 and '10.

I'd say Kobe's role was different in 2000. The facilitator role was really split between Shaq in the post and both Kobe and Harper on the perimeter. Due to Kobe's youth, and the Lakers first year in the triangle in addition to Harper's experience in the offense for the 5 seasons in Chicago, he had a pretty significant part in running the offense.

But back to the point, Kobe's facilitator role on the Lakers was different than the role he'd have in Cleveland under Mike Brown since there was no triangle.

More importantly, I'm not really arguing whether Kobe would have more or less success on that team at the same age.

The point was that Bron 07 was replaceable by Kobe 01 and it would have netted better results if it did happen. Kobe is a better facilitator than Bron when given equal playing fields and has the success to prove it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The point was that Bron 07 was replaceable by Kobe 01 and it would have netted better results if it did happen. Kobe is a better facilitator than Bron when given equal playing fields and has the success to prove it.

As I said, I'm not speculating on what would have happened either way. It's difficult to say until you actually see it, so I try not to make these assumptions.

I don't think you can really compare their roles as facilitator with Kobe in the triangle and Lebron playing for Mike Brown, though I am pretty sure Kobe did a better job running the triangle than Lebron would have, but I also believe Lebron was better suited to being a more ball-dominant facilitator.

[CAstill]

As I said, I'm not speculating on what would have happened either way. It's difficult to say until you actually see it, so I try not to make these assumptions.

I don't think you can really compare their roles as facilitator with Kobe in the triangle and Lebron playing for Mike Brown, though I am pretty sure Kobe did a better job running the triangle than Lebron would have, but I also believe Lebron was better suited to being a more ball-dominant facilitator.


How's so? Unless you mean Bron vs Bron because I'm speaking on Kobe vs Bron. If lebron really wanted to facilitate he should make his play ability more unpredictable. Everyone knows what he's gonna do, it's whether or not the Refs will give you a fair chance at D'ing him up without an automatic trip to the line for him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How's so? Unless you mean Bron vs Bron because I'm speaking on Kobe vs Bron. If lebron really wanted to facilitate he should make his play ability more unpredictable. Everyone knows what he's gonna do, it's whether or not the Refs will give you a fair chance at D'ing him up without an automatic trip to the line for him.

When I've seen Kobe in similar roles(Rudy T Lakers and Mike Brown Lakers) he's been very turnover prone and in general, just less effective than Lebron in those roles, imo. It's also seemed to take it's toll to some extent on his scoring as he's shot a noticeably lower percentage in each situation. Kobe is more of a scorer than Lebron, and this was true when they were young players. I also think Lebron is the better passer.

In fact, Lebron's playmaking was the thing I found the most consistently impressive about his '07 playoff run since his scoring was up and down and was his shooting was so erratic. Which is also why as amazing as Lebron's game 5 vs the Pistons was, it seemed kind of like a fluke to me, and I think people get the impression that he was consistently playing at the level he has in his MVP years based on that game, which isn't the case.

[CAstill]

When I've seen Kobe in similar roles(Rudy T Lakers and Mike Brown Lakers) he's been very turnover prone and in general, just less effective than Lebron in those roles, imo. It's also seemed to take it's toll to some extent on his scoring as he's shot a noticeably lower percentage in each situation. Kobe is more of a scorer than Lebron, and this was true when they were young players. I also think Lebron is the better passer.

In fact, Lebron's playmaking was the thing I found the most consistently impressive about his '07 playoff run since his scoring was up and down and was his shooting was so erratic. Which is also why as amazing as Lebron's game 5 vs the Pistons was, it seemed kind of like a fluke to me, and I think people get the impression that he was consistently playing at the level he has in his MVP years based on that game, which isn't the case.


What years from 01 - until now was he not the facilitator of the team?
Because I don't see how Lebron has been more successful. I don't dock Kobe points for playing with Shaq so.................

[Ca$H]

When I've seen Kobe in similar roles(Rudy T Lakers and Mike Brown Lakers) he's been very turnover prone and in general, just less effective than Lebron in those roles, imo. It's also seemed to take it's toll to some extent on his scoring as he's shot a noticeably lower percentage in each situation. Kobe is more of a scorer than Lebron, and this was true when they were young players. I also think Lebron is the better passer.

In fact, Lebron's playmaking was the thing I found the most consistently impressive about his '07 playoff run since his scoring was up and down and was his shooting was so erratic. Which is also why as amazing as Lebron's game 5 vs the Pistons was, it seemed kind of like a fluke to me, and I think people get the impression that he was consistently playing at the level he has in his MVP years based on that game, which isn't the case.

Mostly due to the finger injuries. His ball handling was elite before the finger injuries.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What years from 01 - until now was he not the facilitator of the team?
Because I don't see how Lebron has been more successful. I don't dock Kobe points for playing with Shaq so.................

I never said he wasn't the facilitator any particular year from '01 on to present, I just said that it's different being the facilitator in the triangle.

I'm not docking Kobe for the fact that I think Lebron is better in a more ball-dominant facilitator role, since I prefer the less ball-dominant style as I said. But if both are in that role, I think Lebron is better at it.


Mostly due to the finger injuries. His ball handling was elite before the finger injuries.

His ball-handling has definitely suffered from the injuries, but even before those finger injuries, he averaged 4+ TO in 2005, and was at 4.5 under Rudy T before he was injured and Rudy was replaced.

[CAstill]

I never said he wasn't the facilitator any particular year from '01 on to present, I just said that it's different being the facilitator in the triangle.

I'm not docking Kobe for the fact that I think Lebron is better in a more ball-dominant facilitator role, since I prefer the less ball-dominant style as I said. But if both are in that role, I think Lebron is better at it.



His ball-handling has definitely suffered from the injuries, but even before those finger injuries, he averaged 4+ TO in 2005, and was at 4.5 under Rudy T before he was injured and Rudy was replaced.


So who do you got if everything is equal. If you could build a perfect team around Kobe and build a perfect team around Bron, who do you got for the win?

[ShaqAttack3234]

So who do you got if everything is equal. If you could build a perfect team around Kobe and build a perfect team around Bron, who do you got for the win?

As far as 2001 Kobe vs 2007 Lebron? Probably Kobe. As far as in general, I don't feel like getting into one of the typical Kobe vs Lebron things, and would wait to see what Lebron does in this series before even deciding that anyway.

[CAstill]

As far as 2001 Kobe vs 2007 Lebron? Probably Kobe. As far as in general, I don't feel like getting into one of the typical Kobe vs Lebron things, and would wait to see what Lebron does in this series before even deciding that anyway.


I understand but if Bron losses he can never be reasonably compared to Kobe. 3 finals losses is too much when you've only won one.

[2010splash]

Funny how often this is thrown around, yet it's usually used incorrectly, and this is a perfect example.



Massive exaggerations.
Not an exaggeration at all. The Cavs won 19 games after LeBron left. Horrible team. And before you say it was a "completely different team", realize you're going to be listing the names of a bunch of washed up role players basically. If it was the identical team with everyone healthy, they may have won 22 or 23 games. Regardless, they still sucked minus LeBron.

[2010splash]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So stupid. Kobe won with prime Shaq that's a good thing dummy, not bad. Shows that when given the chance Kobe capitalizes no problem. You bring up Gasol/Odum/Bynum like that means anything. He brought those guys to finals like nothing. Where are they now? Gasol constantly used in trade talks, Lamar stuck on clipper bench and Bynum hasn't even played since over a year lol. Kobe makes that Cavs roster better stay mad. Kobe>>>Lebron. Kobe leading Smush, Luke, and Kwame to the playoffs is more successful than Bron leading any of those Cavs rosters anywhere.
Kobe was shooting in the 30% and low 40% range in the Finals with Shaq. He played an important role but was clearly not the primary factor for LA's titles. If LeBron was gifted a prime Shaq, he'd have more titles than Kobe.

Gasol/Odom/Bynum is far better than the crap LeBron was playing with in Cleveland. That's the only reason Kobe was winning titles back then instead of LeBron.

And Kobe led those Smush/Kwame/Walton teams to 40 something wins, first round spankings, and the lottery. That's more impressive than LeBron leading Mo/Varejao/Ilgauskas/other stiffs to the Finals, 61 wins, and 66 wins? :roll:

[HylianNightmare]

In game 3 the Cavs lost by 3 points Lebron took 23 shots to score 25 points and he had 5 turnovers. If Lebron plays even a little bit better Cavs win. Same thing in game 4 Cavs lose by one point if Lebron plays a little bit better they win. The series would of been tied 2-2 going to Cleveland if Lebron goes from flat out horrible to bad.

The 01 Spurs had a better defensive rating the 07 Spurs Kobe put up 36/9/6 51% and 40% from 3 against the 01 Spurs as a 22 year old. If 22 year old Kobe plays on the 07 Cavs against the 07 Spurs plays just average they win game 3 and 4 for sure. Game 1 is also very winnable they lost by 9 points with Lebron scoring 14 points on 25% with 6 turnovers an average game by a 22 year old Kobe and the 07 Cavs could win game 1 too. 3-1 lead going to Cleveland so if either a 22 year old Kobe or Lebron have just an average series they could very well beat the 07 spurs with the 07 Cavs.

If a 22 year old Kobe plays like he did against the 01 Spurs while playing the 07 SPurs the Cavs would win for sure.


:biggums:
:applause:

[Doranku]

Kobe was shooting in the 30% and low 40% range in the Finals with Shaq. He played an important role but was clearly not the primary factor for LA's titles. If LeBron was gifted a prime Shaq, he'd have more titles than Kobe.

Gasol/Odom/Bynum is far better than the crap LeBron was playing with in Cleveland. That's the only reason Kobe was winning titles back then instead of LeBron.

And Kobe led those Smush/Kwame/Walton teams to 40 something wins, first round spankings, and the lottery. That's more impressive than LeBron leading Mo/Varejao/Ilgauskas/other stiffs to the Finals, 61 wins, and 66 wins? :roll:

26/5/5 on 52% against the Nets. "30% to low 40%" :roll:

I think you're thinking of this: http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html

[2010splash]

26/5/5 on 52% against the Nets. "30% to low 40%" :roll:

I think you're thinking of this: http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2006/nba_finals_stats.html
2000 Finals - 36.7 FG%
2001 Finals - 41.5 FG%
2004 Finals - 38.1 FG%

:bowdown:

[Magic 32]

2000 Finals - 36.7 FG%
2001 Finals - 41.5 FG%
:bowdown:

http://www.centraldeportiva.com/img/2012/09/Fut/jalen_rose_kobe.JPG

2001 finals - Game 2-5

27 pts, 9 reb, 6 ast 44 FG%

:no:

[Doctor Rivers]

Between the Kobe fans and LeBron fans, I'd say the same 3-5 threads have been recycled several hundred times each in just the least few years.

this

[KOBE143]

Actually a 22 year old Kobe dominated the Spurs easily and swept them in the WCF and every game was a blow out.. That Spurs team had Prime Duncan and David Robinson and was far better than the 07 Spurs where 22 year old LeBron cant even win a single game in short his ass got swept and every game was also a blow out because LeBron choked and quit..

Looks pretty similar situation to me.. :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Not an exaggeration at all. The Cavs won 19 games after LeBron left. Horrible team. And before you say it was a "completely different team", realize you're going to be listing the names of a bunch of washed up role players basically. If it was the identical team with everyone healthy, they may have won 22 or 23 games. Regardless, they still sucked minus LeBron.

First of all, it was a different team. lets start with Byron Scott replacing Mike Brown. Say what you will about Mike Brown, but he was a very good defensive coach, and Cleveland was one of the best defensive teams in the league. Plus, their 2 centers were gone, Delonte West was gone, Varejao missed most of the season, Mo missed a number of games and then was traded and Jamison also missed a number of games.

I agree they wouldn't have been good regardless without Lebron, part of that is how dominant Lebron was, but part of that is because the Cavs team was built solely around Lebron. They excelled defensively and on the boards and had very good 3 point shooters around him. That's not a shit cast. Admittedly, Lebron led them to a hell of a lot more wins than you'd expect. I thought the Cavs would win around 55 games once they got Mo, and instead, they won 66.

I thought it was a mistake to trade for Jamison though, because while that gave them another scoring option, it took away noticeably from their defense and rebounding. '09 Cavs were better than '10 Cavs, imo.

Point being, a lot of really good teams would be bad teams if you removed their star player. That's partially because teams tend to build around their franchise player.



Gasol/Odom/Bynum is far better than the crap LeBron was playing with in Cleveland. That's the only reason Kobe was winning titles back then instead of LeBron.

It's deceptive to mention Bynum as a key part of the '09 team. He averaged 6/4 on 46% shooting in 17 mpg during the '09 playoffs. He averaged almost as many fouls as rebounds. And in '08, he didn't even play in the finals.

And lets not mention Kobe's teams as the ONLY reason he won in '09 and '10 instead of Lebron. Cavs were up 2-1 against Boston went Lebron disappeared the last 3 games, and the following year, he has the star power in prime Wade and Bosh and lost in the finals, primarily because he disappeared.

So it's not a given he'd have gotten the job done.


And Kobe led those Smush/Kwame/Walton teams to 40 something wins, first round spankings, and the lottery. That's more impressive than LeBron leading Mo/Varejao/Ilgauskas/other stiffs to the Finals, 61 wins, and 66 wins? :roll:

I'd say Lebron's success in '09 and '10 is more impressive because 61 and 66 wins regardless of conferences are much more rare, particularly with those type of teams than a star carrying a bad team to 42-45 wins as Kobe did in '06 and '07. We saw T-Mac do that in Orlando and Wade do it in '09 to name a few recent players.

But I hope you're not suggesting that Kobe's '06 and '07 Lakers were in any way comparable to the '09 and '10 Cavs.


Actually a 22 year old Kobe dominated the Spurs easily and swept them in the WCF and every game was a blow out.. That Spurs team had Prime Duncan and David Robinson and was far better than the 07 Spurs where 22 year old LeBron cant even win a single game in short his ass got swept and every game was also a blow out because LeBron choked and quit..

Looks pretty similar situation to me.. :lol

The '01 Spurs were not as good as the '07 Spurs, much less, far better. The '01 Spurs would have had a better case if Derek Anderson had been healthy since he had played all-star caliber ball for a few months once he got settled in and was their primary perimeter threat, but without him, they lacked a guy who could really create on the perimeter. Antonio Daniels did step up and play surprisingly well in his absence, but it's clear they were lacking without Anderson as far as scorers around Duncan.

They were also lacking as far as perimeter defense, while the '07 Spurs were good in that regard, particularly with Bowen. '07 team was just better. They had Duncan in addition to two all-star caliber guards in Parker and Ginobili, arguably the top perimeter defender in the game in Bowen, and shooters such as Michael Finley.