Why is Oscar Robertson not a lock for top 10?????

[INDI]

I have been guilty of leaving Oscar out of the top 10 for much of my "top ten" lists, but truthfully it should be impossible to do so. I know stats are not the full story but if stats were the only thing we judged careers upon, then Oscar would be the unanimous GOAT.

for example ONLY, I did a comparison to Lebron's career (since many are starting to consider him top ten alltime).



Oscar (career stats)

25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, .485 fg%, .838 ft%

Lebron

27.6 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.3 rpg, .490 fg%, .747 ft%

egde goes to Oscar


Oscar (best season)

30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg, 12.1 rpg

Lebron

29.7 ppg, 8.6 apg, 7.3 rpg

edge goes to Oscar (probably the best statistical season of all-time)


Oscar (other stats)

1 championship, 1 mvp, 9 all nba firsts, 2 all nba second team, 3 all star mvp, R.O.Y,

6 seasons of 30+ ppg, 8 seasons of 10+ assts, 4 seasons of 10+ rpg

Lebron

1 championship, 4 mvp, 7 all nba first, 2 all nba second (i think), 2 all star mvp, R.O.Y

2 seasons of 30+ppg, 0 seasons of 10+ assts, 0 seasons of 10+ rpg

edge goes to Oscar.




The only knocks that you will ever hear about Oscar is that he only has 1 mvp and 1 championship. This is easily understandable playing in a era that boasted Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar, which happens to be the 3 greatest big men of alltime. Celtics with all of those hall of famers would be impossible for anybody to win consistently against.

the other knock is saying he couldnt do that in this ERA. He can't help when he was born and if it was easy enough to average a triple double then why has no one else from that era done it?????? (and Oscar came close to doing it 5 times!!!!).



I believe that overall Oscar should be a lock for the top 10, as much as I love hakeem there is no way he should be above the big O.

[Scholar]

The only knocks that you will ever hear about Oscar is that he only has 1 mvp and 1 championship. This is easily understandable playing in a era that boasted Russell, KAJ, and Jabbar, which happens to be the 3 greatest big men of alltime. Celtics with all of those hall of famers would be impossible for anybody to win consistently against.

the other knock is saying he couldnt do that in this ERA. He can't help when he was born and if it was easy enough to average a triple double then why has no one else from that era done it?????? (and Oscar came close to doing it 5 times!!!!).



I believe that overall Oscar should be a lock for the top 10, as much as I love hakeem there is no way he should be above the big O.

What?


Anyway, it's hard to argue against your point. All I can say is that the majority of us never got to watch Oscar play live. It's different seeing someone live than seeing highlights & hearing stories. That's why there are youngsters saying, "Kobe > MJ," all because they never watched MJ play live.

[teddytwelvetoes]

The only knocks that you will ever hear about Oscar is that he only has 1 mvp and 1 championship. This is easily understandable playing in a era that boasted Russell, KAJ, and Jabbar, which happens to be the 3 greatest big men of alltime. Celtics with all of those hall of famers would be impossible for anybody to win consistently against.If those Celtics teams had Wilt instead of Russell they wouldn't have won 11 chips in 13 years

That season where Oscar averaged a triple double Wilt averaged 50pts 25rbs in 48.5 minutes per game. Russ won MVP :pimp:

[INDI]

What?


Anyway, it's hard to argue against your point. All I can say is that the majority of us never got to watch Oscar play live. It's different seeing someone live than seeing highlights & hearing stories. That's why there are youngsters saying, "Kobe > MJ," all because they never watched MJ play live.

lol i meant Wilt

[keep-itreal]

because he played in a water down era, played against a bunch of stiff unathletic white man.

[aj1987]

Oscar (best season)

30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg, 12.1 rpg

edge goes to Oscar (probably the best statistical season of all-time)

You're forgetting a certain player who goes by the name Wilt Chamberlain.

50.4 PPG, 25.7 RPG, 2.4 APG
24.3 PPG, 23.8 RPG, 8.6 APG
24.1 PPG, 24.2 RPG, 7.8 APG (@ 68.3% :eek: )
I would take those three seasons over the one that you mentioned.
I remember reading somewhere that if blocks were recorded back then, Wilt would've averaged around 6-9 BPG over his career.

[WayOfWade]

I'll try to list ten players I without a doubt think are greater than he is.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Hameem, Shaq, Kobe... and that's it. I'd say he's in it with his main competition being Tim Duncan.

[teddytwelvetoes]

You're forgetting a certain player who goes by the name Wilt Chamberlain.

50.4 PPG, 25.7 RPG, 2.4 APG
24.3 PPG, 23.8 RPG, 8.6 APG
24.1 PPG, 24.2 RPG, 7.8 APG (@ 68.3% :eek: )
I would take those three seasons over the one that you mentioned.
I remember reading somewhere that if blocks were recorded back then, Wilt would've averaged around 6-9 BPG over his career.Like I said, Russ won MVP the year Wilt put up 50/25 :pimp:

Russ was casually mentioned in broadcasts/box scores getting 8-14 blocks in playoff games. Blocks that were directed towards teammates for instant fast-breaks, not swatted into the stands giving the other team the ball back :pimp:

[Psycho]

I'll try to list ten players I without a doubt think are greater than he is.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Hameem, Shaq, Kobe... and that's it. I'd say he's in it with his main competition being Tim Duncan.

Duncan is definitively better than Hakeem.

[WayOfWade]

Duncan is definitively better than Hakeem.
I can understand that. It's tough to rank current players because their days aren't over yet.

[aj1987]

Like I said, Russ won MVP the year Wilt put up 50/25 :pimp:

Russ was casually mentioned in broadcasts/box scores getting 8-14 blocks in playoff games. Blocks that were directed towards teammates for instant fast-breaks, not swatted into the stands giving the other team the ball back :pimp:
I'll leave this to that Wilt homer dude. jlauber, right?

[2010splash]

Oscar's stats are grossly inflated from playing in a watered down, weak ass era with no competition and inferior athletes. LeBron's 27/8/7 on 57% in the modern era is much better than anything Oscar did back then and would be probably 40/15/12 on 65% back in that joker's league. Not to mention Oscar is a terrible defensive player compared to LeBron.

Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe.

There's 10 players Oscar can't beat out.

[INDI]

I'll try to list ten players I without a doubt think are greater than he is.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Hameem, Shaq, Kobe... and that's it. I'd say he's in it with his main competition being Tim Duncan.

The same knock that applies to big O (he was more physically gifted than his competition), should apply to Shaq also. Everyone knows that the main reason for Shaqs dominance was strength.

even when you take their situations Into account (oscar era, shaq weight advantage), Oscar was still mlre dominant. Shaq has never averaged 30 ppg (one season of 29.7). Oscar did it 6 times and had 5 deasons close to triple doubles.

give me Oscar over Shaq

[LAZERUSS]

If those Celtics teams had Wilt instead of Russell they wouldn't have won 11 chips in 13 years

That season where Oscar averaged a triple double Wilt averaged 50pts 25rbs in 48.5 minutes per game. Russ won MVP :pimp:

Not sure what your point is. In any case, I won't bother arguing your take on Russell-Wilt. This is about Oscar.

So, are you basically claiming that what the Big O accomplished should just be dismissed?

Most everyone knows that Oscar had that "triple double" season (and BTW, he averaged 30 ppg in it), but as was mentioned, he averaged a triple double over the course of his first five seasons, and all on about 30 ppg and on efficiencies that were well ahead of the league average.

Since you seem to be implying that it was so easy, where are all the other triple-double seasons of that era? And once again, he was consistently handing out 10-11 apg over the course of much of that decade, all while scoring around 30 ppg...when there were only a couple of other seasons in which a player averaged over 10 apg (and on much lower scoring.)

And I won't get into the debate about where Oscar should rank, either. We are now reaching the point where there are about 12-13 players who have legitimate arguments as top-10 players of all-time. And even if he is not a top-10 player, he was clearly one of the greatest ever.

[BoutPractice]

You're just comparing raw stats with no context. Adjusted for pace, Oscar's stats are still very impressive, but inferior than LeBron's.

But to answer your question, it's because, as unbelievably great that Oscar was, you can list ten players who are/were even better: Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe. You can also make a case for Moses and LeBron.

[pauk]

I have been guilty of leaving Oscar out of the top 10 for much of my "top ten" lists, but truthfully it should be impossible to do so. I know stats are not the full story but if stats were the only thing we judged careers upon, then Oscar would be the unanimous GOAT.

for example ONLY, I did a comparison to Lebron's career (since many are starting to consider him top ten alltime).



Oscar (career stats)

25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, .485 fg%, .838 ft%

Lebron

27.6 ppg, 6.9 apg, 7.3 rpg, .490 fg%, .747 ft%

egde goes to Oscar


Oscar (best season)

30.8 ppg, 11.4 apg, 12.1 rpg

Lebron

29.7 ppg, 8.6 apg, 7.3 rpg

edge goes to Oscar (probably the best statistical season of all-time)


Oscar (other stats)

1 championship, 1 mvp, 9 all nba firsts, 2 all nba second team, 3 all star mvp, R.O.Y,

6 seasons of 30+ ppg, 8 seasons of 10+ assts, 4 seasons of 10+ rpg

Lebron

1 championship, 4 mvp, 7 all nba first, 2 all nba second (i think), 2 all star mvp, R.O.Y

2 seasons of 30+ppg, 0 seasons of 10+ assts, 0 seasons of 10+ rpg

edge goes to Oscar.




The only knocks that you will ever hear about Oscar is that he only has 1 mvp and 1 championship. This is easily understandable playing in a era that boasted Russell, Wilt, and Jabbar, which happens to be the 3 greatest big men of alltime. Celtics with all of those hall of famers would be impossible for anybody to win consistently against.

the other knock is saying he couldnt do that in this ERA. He can't help when he was born and if it was easy enough to average a triple double then why has no one else from that era done it?????? (and Oscar came close to doing it 5 times!!!!).



I believe that overall Oscar should be a lock for the top 10, as much as I love hakeem there is no way he should be above the big O.


Stop it... just stop...

[MiseryCityTexas]

If those Celtics teams had Wilt instead of Russell they wouldn't have won 11 chips in 13 years

That season where Oscar averaged a triple double Wilt averaged 50pts 25rbs in 48.5 minutes per game. Russ won MVP :pimp:

please stop posting idiot. They probably would have won more than 11 championships if Wilt was on the Celtics. Russell's whole starting lineup were all stars and great role players, while a friggin all star hall of famer in his prime (Havlicek) came off the bench.

[senelcoolidge]

Sorry, but I would put Oscar ahead of Kobe. Kobe has stats and numbers, but he's not even a top 10 player. Now some people just look at championships and accolades as the criteria for greatness. Not necessarily.

[Nebraskanball]

And that's why I laugh at anyone that has Lebron in there top 10 right now. Complete morons.

[Nebraskanball]

Sorry, but I would put Oscar ahead of Kobe. Kobe has stats and numbers, but he's not even a top 10 player. Now some people just look at championships and accolades as the criteria for greatness. Not necessarily.
It's championships + stats + accolades + impact + true skill = a players all time ranking.

[2010splash]

And that's why I laugh at anyone that has Lebron in there top 10 right now. Complete morons.
Anyone who doesn't believe LeBron is currently top 10 all-time and a virtual lock to finish at worst top 4-5 all-time is clinically insane. The game has never seen someone this versatile/dominant who excels at basically all aspects of the game.

[BlackVVaves]

Duncan is definitively better than Hakeem.

From a career aspect, certainly. And since all time ranking weighs heavy on career accomplishments, you can't really argue Duncan > Hakeem.

But, from an individual standpoint, Hakeem scored, defended, and passed just as well as Duncan. Also, Hakeem's peak > Duncan's peak.

-- Career --
Hakeem: 22 PPG, 11 RPG, 3 APG, 3 BPG, 2 SPG, 51% FG.

Duncan: 20 PPG, 11 RPG, 3 APG, 2 BPG, 1 SPG, 51% FG.

[BlackVVaves]

Anyone who doesn't believe LeBron is currently top 10 all-time and a virtual lock to finish at worst top 4-5 all-time is clinically insane. The game has never seen someone this versatile/dominant who excels at basically all aspects of the game.

You're the same person that said this Miami Heat team is Top 3 All Time. Needless to say, you're opinion is meaningless.

You're the one that's clinically insane if you think that 1 championship + 1 FMVP is grand enough to have Lebron in the Top 10 GOAT list. After another championship this season, I'd put him in there at #10 over Hakeem. But until then, no.

[K Xerxes]

Duncan is definitively better than Hakeem.

Hakeem was a better player than Duncan, so no.

[2010splash]

You're the same person that said this Miami Heat team is Top 3 All Time. Needless to say, you're opinion is meaningless.

You're the one that's clinically insane if you think that 1 championship + 1 FMVP is grand enough to have Lebron in the Top 10 GOAT list. After another championship this season, I'd put him in there at #10 over Hakeem. But until then, no.
If they win the title, sure. 66 wins, 27 wins in a row, 37 of the last 39 in the regular season, led by imo a top-2 peak player ever (27/8/7, 56.5 FG%, 64.0 TS%, legendary defense) whose all-around stats and efficiency are basically unmatched (only Jordan compares). It’s not that outrageous of a claim. The ’92 Bulls are close to being a top 3 team ever and had plenty of resistance in the playoffs. Except nobody will take issue with calling the ’92 Bulls a top 3 team ever since they played in the 90’s.

And LeBron has already passed Hakeem. Are you high? What the hell does Hakeem have over LeBron besides one more championship? LeBron has 4x as many MVP’s and has made his peers look like nothing. Hakeem has 1 MVP. :lol

You think that a guy who belongs in a category that only Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell belong to isn’t even top 10 all-time? Goodness, this board sometimes is just too much. Always good for a laugh.

Do you think Wilt Chamberlain is merely #10 all-time? Because after this season, he and LeBron will be identical in the MVP’s/titles categories.

[KG215]

If they win the title, sure. 66 wins, 27 wins in a row, 37 of the last 39 in the regular season, led by imo a top-2 peak player ever (27/8/7, 56.5 FG%, 64.0 TS%, legendary defense) whose all-around stats and efficiency are basically unmatched (only Jordan compares). It’s not that outrageous of a claim. The ’92 Bulls are close to being a top 3 team ever and had plenty of resistance in the playoffs. Except nobody will take issue with calling the ’92 Bulls a top 3 team ever since they played in the 90’s.
That '92 Bulls team had fewer holes and the East was a lot tougher then than it was this year. The Heat are not a top 3 all-time. Off the top of my head, the '67 76ers, '86 Celtics, '87 Lakers, '72 Lakers, '92 or '96 Bulls (maybe both), either Bad Boy Pistons team, '83 76ers, and '01 Lakers are better.


And LeBron has already passed Hakeem. Are you high? What the hell does Hakeem have over LeBron besides one more championship? LeBron has 4x as many MVP’s and has made his peers look like nothing. Hakeem has 1 MVP. :lol
You can argue Hakeem, at his best, was every bit as good and impactful as current LeBron. And the stats back that up before you go into your "but the stats don't show that" tirade; because you're the same person that says prime/peak Kareem's stats don't compare to LeBron's.

[tpols]

ILeBron has 4x as many MVP’s and has made his peers look like nothing. .
Haha.. Compared to Hakeems peers... Prime Jordan Barkley malone Robinson bird magic to young Durant, Dwight, rose, wade, old Kobe/duncan/dirk/KG, Lebron's peers HAVE been nothing.

[Sarcastic]

Stop it... just stop...


Stop what? Everything listed there goes to Oscar.

[TerranOP]

Pretty simple. He wasn't a winner. He won only one championship, and even then he wasn't the finals MVP. How can you put someone like that in the top 10, especially if he only has 1 MVP? The answer is you can't

[kshutts1]

because he played in a water down era, played against a bunch of stiff unathletic white man.

Please show me all the other players that averaged a triple double, or even approached one, all while maintaining efficiency and PPG. If it is ERA SPECIFIC then there would be more than a select handful of all-time greats that were able to approach those numbers.

However, since there ARE only a handful, that clearly points towards ability and skill. And with no time machine invented/possible, all we can really look towards is a players' ability relative to his peers. It is very clear that Oscar was clearly better than all but one or two of his peers, and significantly better at that.

[Sarcastic]

Pretty simple. He wasn't a winner. He won only one championship, and even then he wasn't the finals MVP. How can you put someone like that in the top 10, especially if he only has 1 MVP? The answer is you can't

He played in Russell's era. No one was a winner during that time unless you played on the Celtics. There was no free agency at that time, so he couldn't form a super team with Wilt and West, the way James did.

[kshutts1]

To the OP:

Really well-done post. Didn't clutter it up with subjective statements, etc. Just bare-bones (stats) post. Obviously stats don't tell the whole story, but Lebron's stats are a major reason for most people ranking him where they do. Honestly, this was one of the most eye-opening posts I have read in a long, long time (that wasn't written by Lazerus).

That being said, the only "hole" I see in the OPs argument is the lack of defensive rating/ability.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Hakeem would probably have more championships than Duncan if he had the same supporting cast Duncan had/has. Hakeem won championships with role playing bums.

[TerranOP]

He played in Russell's era. No one was a winner during that time unless you played on the Celtics. There was no free agency at that time, so he couldn't form a super team with Wilt and West, the way James did.


Yeah, it sucks to be him, but it doesn't change how we objectively view his career. It was unfortunate that he played in the era he did, but there's no point in bumping him up because of "what ifs". He had great numbers and hardly any hardware to show for it, so we can't put him in the top ten.

[fpliii]

I'm not too big on awards and other accolades, opting instead to value on-the-court impact (i.e. ability to increase your team's probability of winning a championship). Oscar did basically all that could be done as a non-center in his era, and anchored his teams' all-time great offenses. I don't do all-time rankings anymore, but he has to be one of the greatest offensive players we've seen. He's definitely a top tier non-big IMO, but I'm not able/willing to slot him beyond that.

[teddytwelvetoes]

please stop posting idiot. They probably would have won more than 11 championships if Wilt was on the Celtics. Russell's whole starting lineup were all stars and great role players, while a friggin all star hall of famer in his prime (Havlicek) came off the bench.Ah, the "Wilt played with bums and Russ played with gods" myth. That's one of my favorites :cheers:

Put Wilt on that C's team and they struggle to win half as many chips.

[Legends66NBA7]

Hakeem would probably have more championships than Duncan if he had the same supporting cast Duncan had/has. Hakeem won championships with role playing bums.

Clyde Drexler wasn't a role playing bum.

[kobeef24]

First off, raw stats are meaningless without context. You need to take the pace of the game into account.

Second of all, you're comparing him to a player that is not yet in the top 10.

I've never watched Oscar play, so I don't really have much say on the matter, but I currently have LeBron over Oscar due to his individual achievements.

[INDI]

Yeah, it sucks to be him, but it doesn't change how we objectively view his career. It was unfortunate that he played in the era he did, but there's no point in bumping him up because of "what ifs". He had great numbers and hardly any hardware to show for it, so we can't put him in the top ten.

You say that we cant bump him up because of "what ifs", not realizing that we bump him down with the "what ifs". "If" Oscar played in our era he wouldnt have those stats etc...

[DatAsh]

Seeing as how Oscar very clearly doesn't have the best stats, why would he be the unanimous GOAT based on stats alone?

[TerranOP]

You say that we cant bump him up because of "what ifs", not realizing that we bump him down with the "what ifs". "If" Oscar played in our era he wouldnt have those stats etc...

That does happen, but stats aren't the issue when it comes to ranking the top 10-20. It's about accomplishments, and Oscar doesn't have many. We could speculate that Hakeem wouldn't have won his 2 'chips if Jordan had stayed in the league, but the fact is he got 2 FMVPS and 2 rings in that time. That's a big reason why hes in the top 10 for most people. My point is that people cant prop up Oscar by making the excuse that no one could win during the Celtics dynasty.

[eliteballer]

OP, why don't you look up Elgin Baylor's numbers and tell us he's not top 10.

[steve]

That being said, the only "hole" I see in the OPs argument is the lack of defensive rating/ability.

It's hard to judge a player's defensive ability (even more so in those days and especially for wing players) without having enough first hand evidence, but there is enough anecdotal evidence out there from people who's basketball opinion is highly respected who hold Robertson's defensive ability fairly high (I recognize you were just pointing that the only reason it's a "hole" is because of those exact reasons).

[monkeypox]

If you want to the know the truth it's because he sued the NBA back in the day as a part of the fight to create free agency. Supposedly he's been blackballed since then and the league goes to great lengths to not mention him or offer him any type of exposure.

[Legends66NBA7]

If you want to the know the truth it's because he sued the NBA back in the day as a part of the fight to create free agency. Supposedly he's been blackballed since then and the league goes to great lengths to not mention him or offer him any type of exposure.

I've heard this too, but I do think he gets more than enough exposure whenever the triple double gets mentioned. Doesn't he also have a trophy made after him ? And just this past Christmas when the Knicks and Lakers were playing, they mentioned how Bryant passed Robertson in all-time scoring on Christmas day (context aside).

[monkeypox]

I've heard this too, but I do think he gets more than enough exposure whenever the triple double gets mentioned. Doesn't he also have a trophy made after him ? And just this past Christmas when the Knicks and Lakers were playing, they mentioned how Bryant passed Robertson in all-time scoring on Christmas day (context aside).

People mention it, but he basically gets no push from the NBA. Also the award named after him is in the NCAA.

I remember reading about it awhile back, but he tried getting jobs anywhere in the league for a time and kept getting doors slammed in his face before he figured out what was going on. The NBA spends a lot of time marketing and honoring it's greats but basically ignores Robertson.

[1987_Lakers]

Reason why Robertson isn't top 10...

- Never won a title and lacked team success as the #1 man
- Don't judge him by stats, they are inflated

nuff said.

[Round Mound]

Ring Thing Ofcourse :confusedshrug:. Same Thing Why Charles Barkley is Not Top 10, Despite the Fact That All Broken Down and Advanded Stats Point To Him as a Top 10 Player.

[LAZERUSS]

Ring Thing Ofcourse :confusedshrug:. Same Thing Why Charles Barkley is Not Top 10, Despite the Fact That All Broken Down and Advanded Stats Point To Him as a Top 10 Player.

Barkley is probably the greatest player to not have a ring. Baylor and K. Malone might have arguments, but all three are in that group.

And these top-10 and top-20 lists are becoming damn near impossible. Players like Hondo, Barry, Dirk, Robinson, Pettit, Oscar, West, Moses, Hakeem, Lebron, Baylor, K. Malone, Dr. J, and Barkley.

[Lebron23]

Reason why Robertson isn't top 10...

- Never won a title and lacked team success as the #1 man
- Don't judge him by stats, they are inflated

nuff said.

He won a title with a young Lew Alcindor.

[Legends66NBA7]

Barkley is probably the greatest player to not have a ring. Baylor and K. Malone might have arguments, but all three are in that group.

Who's is the third ? Robertson has a ring.

For me, it's Baylor, Barkley, and then K.Malone.

[1987_Lakers]

He won a title with a young Lew Alcindor.

Not as the #1 guy.

[Crown&Coke]

I think it's the Oscar Robertson Case, Black Jesus thinks that played a part in it too. The man was the Jackie Robinson of NBA free agency. Without Robertson the players were getting paid peanuts. During the offseason guys had to sell vacuum cleaners by going door to door just to keep the rent paid. And NBA owners never forgot that it was this all-world player who was the springboard for the paychecks you see today.

I hold Robertson in really high regard. He was just born earlier than we can actually appreciate his game like today. He is a 6'5" Lebron in many respects, but gets no love. What he was doing in the league at that time was unfathomable.

[HurricaneKid]

Pretty simple. He wasn't a winner. He won only one championship, and even then he wasn't the finals MVP. How can you put someone like that in the top 10, especially if he only has 1 MVP? The answer is you can't

I'll take it one step farther. He won a first round series ONCE before he joined Kareem at the end of his career.

LeBron has made it to the second round every year since his 21st birthday (8 straight years).

[FKAri]

He won a title with a young Lew Alcindor.

Exactly a no-name scrub. That name isn't anywhere in the top 100.

[ProfessorMurder]

Reason why Robertson isn't top 10...

- Never won a title and lacked team success as the #1 man
- Don't judge him by stats, they are inflated

nuff said.

If his stats are inflated, then how did NOBODY IN HISTORY duplicate it?

[JMT]

I think it's the Oscar Robertson Case, Black Jesus thinks that played a part in it too. The man was the Jackie Robinson of NBA free agency. Without Robertson the players were getting paid peanuts. During the offseason guys had to sell vacuum cleaners by going door to door just to keep the rent paid. And NBA owners never forgot that it was this all-world player who was the springboard for the paychecks you see today.

I hold Robertson in really high regard. He was just born earlier than we can actually appreciate his game like today. He is a 6'5" Lebron in many respects, but gets no love. What he was doing in the league at that time was unfathomable.


:applause: Excellent post.

Curt Flood, Spencer Haywood, etc. No love lost from the owners/leagues.

[HurricaneKid]

If his stats are inflated, then how did NOBODY IN HISTORY duplicate it?

WAT?

Why doesn't anyone throw 40 complete games a year like Cy Young? Why doesn't anyone average 25 Rebs/gm? The game has changed.

If you don't think his stats were inflated try this one on: The year he avg a triple double with 12.5 reb/gm he was 7th on the team in reb/min.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html#per_minute::none

[CavaliersFTW]

Not as the #1 guy.
He was the floor leader of the team that season, and played at least as good as Kareem during the Finals game - in fact, during the game they say it's a shame that he can't be the co-winner of the playoff MVP award they gave to Kareem.

[ProfessorMurder]

WAT?

Why doesn't anyone throw 40 complete games a year like Cy Young? Why doesn't anyone average 25 Rebs/gm? The game has changed.

If you don't think his stats were inflated try this one on: The year he avg a triple double with 12.5 reb/gm he was 7th on the team in reb/min.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html#per_minute::none

Hundreds of players played in the era you people are claiming 'inflated stats', yet he's a statistical anomaly. How did he do it? Maybe because he was really good at basketball?

Why don't you say Cy Young has inflated stats?

Inflated stats doesn't mean shit. He earned those stats and nobody else has. He was f*cking great.

[caliman]

If his stats are inflated, then how did NOBODY IN HISTORY duplicate it?


No one else did the triple double, but looking at the stats, of course they are inflated. You had Wilt going for 37/27,38/27, 50/26, and 45/24. You had Baylor going for 35/20 and 38/19 in back to back seasons. Pettit was averaging 28/20, 31/19, and 28/15. The list goes on and on. Take act like those numbers weren't inflated is being terrible naive.

[FKAri]

No one else did the triple double, but looking at the stats, of course they are inflated. You had Wilt going for 37/27,38/27, 50/26, and 45/24. You had Baylor going for 35/20 and 38/19 in back to back seasons. Pettit was averaging 28/20, 31/19, and 28/15. The list goes on and on. Take act like those numbers weren't inflated is being terrible naive.

Why isn't Jordan's 32-8-8 not inflated?

[caliman]

Why isn't Jordan's 32-8-8 not inflated?


Make a case for it being inflated.

[arifgokcen]

Make a case for it being inflated.

Its inflated for lebron best statistical season.

Though if we take 60s pace lets take all those numbers and adjust to cavaliers 2009-2010 season where
(if you want i can also adjust for minutes)
lebron averaged 29.7 7.3 8.6
pace was 91.4
Michael 88-89 season adjusted to 91.4 pace from 97.0
30.6 7.5 7.5
Minutes adjusted to lebron's(40.2 to 39) 29.7 7.3 7.3

[bdreason]

I go back and forth between Kobe and Oscar at the #10 spot. It's hard to rank a player you didn't watch play (minus youtube), and also to balance stats vs. championships.

[CavaliersFTW]

Been watching a lot of Oscar Robertson footage lately while trying to put together a docu-highlight package on him and holy shit can that guy ball... like, he really is sort of like a pint sized Lebron James and is bar none the most complete player I've looked at under close scrutiny save for maybe Michael Jordan. 6-4 and 3/4 of an inch tall and 220lbs and a floor general that can do anything on the floor.

[Psileas]

Οld post, but:


Make a case for it being inflated.

Simple: Someone can take your own argument 2 posts before and use it for Jordan's era.

[INDI]

Been watching a lot of Oscar Robertson footage lately while trying to put together a docu-highlight package on him and holy shit can that guy ball... like, he really is sort of like a pint sized Lebron James and is bar none the most complete player I've looked at under close scrutiny save for maybe Michael Jordan. 6-4 and 3/4 of an inch tall and 220lbs and a floor general that can do anything on the floor.

Imo he had the greatest statlines in NBA history. He played in the era where 3 centers who also are top 10 greats played and teams were unbalanced. If not for these two unfortunate aspects he would be considered top 3.

[T_L_P]

A lock is a bit of an exaggeration, though he definitely has a case.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Oscar was a default top 10 GOAT player not even a decade ago.

Then Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, and LeBron happened.

[pauk]

Oscar Robertson was a great player, but anybody who has him in the top 10 at this very moment either doesnt know or doesnt want to mention that equivalating those 60s era stats where even the slowest team in the NBA had close to ~130 poss. per game to the fastest team today ~90 poss. per game is not very smart.

Adjusting for 60s pace/poss. per game Lebron's career average alone would have looked extremly violent.
Adjusting for 00s pace/poss. per game even Oscar's best season would still be impressive but nowhere near to something like 30-10-10, more like 20-6-6.

Thats why guys like Wilt & Oscar didnt have outrageous advanced stats (PER) and why Jordan's & Lebron's are at the very top, because PER adjusts for actual pace, actual production per possession.

Now that we have breaked down that phenomenon what are we left with? What else should we consider besides simply STATS?

Accolades & level of peak play (not stats peak, but domination, team impact/game that actually translates to team success, being best player in the NBA and so on)...

Oscar has zero case over Lebron......... and in terms of stats alone you would actually had a better chance comparing him against other recent guys who bumped Oscar down & out of the top 10 aswell (Kobe, Duncan, Shaq for example) considering they had worse overall stats than Lebron per possession.

[CavaliersFTW]

Oscar Robertson was a great player, but anybody who has him in the top 10 at this very moment either doesnt know or doesnt want to mention that equivalating those 60s era stats where even the slowest team in the NBA had close to ~130 poss. per game to the fastest team today ~90 poss. per game is not very smart.

Adjusting for 60s pace/poss. per game Lebron's career average alone would have looked extremly violent.
Adjusting for 00s pace/poss. per game even Oscar's best season would still be impressive but nowhere near to something like 30-10-10, more like 20-6-6.

Thats why guys like Wilt & Oscar didnt have outrageous advanced stats (PER) and why Jordan's & Lebron's are at the very top, because PER adjusts for actual pace, actual production per possession.

Now that we have breaked down that phenomenon what are we left with? What else should we consider besides simply STATS?

Accolades & level of peak play (not stats peak, but domination, team impact/game that actually translates to team success, being best player in the NBA and so on)...

Oscar has zero case over Lebron......... and in terms of stats alone you would actually had a better chance comparing him against other recent guys who bumped Oscar down & out of the top 10 aswell (Kobe, Duncan, Shaq for example) considering they had worse overall stats than Lebron per possession.
Actually anybody who drivels on like that obviously knows very little about Oscar and is clearly just bothered by all the comparisons Oscar gets with your boy Lebron. Classic damage control post. Obvious posturing.

Oscar is like a pint-sized, more complete version of Lebron James. His inside game and pivot play in particular is several orders of magnitude more polished than Lebron's and his first step from triple threat and ability to run the pick and roll are also visibly more effective. A player with Oscar's resume on top of playing like a more complete version of Lebron James, is automatically valid for GOAT discussions especially if all around ability is the most heavily favored criteria (which for some it is) let alone 'top 10' rankings. Like it or not, Oscar is that caliber player.

Oh and adjusted stats don't exist, a players stats can be fiddled with endlessly to create anything you could possibly desire, they are entirely fake and made up based on arbitrary, meaningless stipulations fueled by bias and ulterior motives. Such as your motive to sell Oscar short so as to try and clear the path of 'best all around players' for Lebron James. Oscar is a threat to you. You hate that he is compared to your boy Lebron. It angers you that there was once a player very similar to Lebron that is talked about and hailed to this day routinely credited as being even more complete.

Let's flip your script and adjust for Lebron being in the 60's for a moment. After we adjust for physicality, a lack of performance enhancing drugs, racism, palming violations, stricter traveling rules, hand-checking, flopping retaliations, stricter assist guidelines, lack of ticy tac fouls, and so on a 60's adjusted Lebron it turns out could only play for 7 seasons and average 17.5ppg 6rpg and 4.5apg on 41% shooting on limited injury ridden minutes with zero NBA titles before finally going down with a career ending fractured skull for trying to dance and showboat in front of Willis Reed after a game winning assist to Butch Komives. Lebron's stats today are pointless, these adjustments need to be made and quite frankly I'm not impressed with his production based on these adjustments.

See what I did there? Have a nice day Pauk :cheers:

[feyki]

Defence , consistency and short prime .

[colts19]

Actually anybody who drivels on like that obviously knows very little about Oscar and is clearly just bothered by all the comparisons Oscar gets with your boy Lebron. Classic damage control post. Obvious posturing.

Oscar is like a pint-sized, more complete version of Lebron James. His inside game and pivot play in particular is several orders of magnitude more polished than Lebron's and his first step from triple threat and ability to run the pick and roll are also visibly more effective. A player with Oscar's resume on top of playing like a more complete version of Lebron James, is automatically valid for GOAT discussions especially if all around ability is the most heavily favored criteria (which for some it is) let alone 'top 10' rankings. Like it or not, Oscar is that caliber player.

Oh and adjusted stats don't exist, a players stats can be fiddled with endlessly to create anything you could possibly desire, they are entirely fake and made up based on arbitrary, meaningless stipulations fueled by bias and ulterior motives. Such as your motive to sell Oscar short so as to try and clear the path of 'best all around players' for Lebron James. Oscar is a threat to you. You hate that he is compared to your boy Lebron. It angers you that there was once a player very similar to Lebron that is talked about and hailed to this day routinely credited as being even more complete.

Let's flip your script and adjust for Lebron being in the 60's for a moment. After we adjust for physicality, a lack of performance enhancing drugs, racism, palming violations, stricter traveling rules, hand-checking, flopping retaliations, stricter assist guidelines, lack of ticy tac fouls, and so on a 60's adjusted Lebron it turns out could only play for 7 seasons and average 17.5ppg 6rpg and 4.5apg on 41% shooting on limited injury ridden minutes with zero NBA titles before finally going down with a career ending fractured skull for trying to dance and showboat in front of Willis Reed after a game winning assist to Butch Komives. Lebron's stats today are pointless, these adjustments need to be made and quite frankly I'm not impressed with his production based on these adjustments.

See what I did there? Have a nice day Pauk :cheers:

Yes I see what you did, and it was GREAT. As I've said before, I saw Big O play as early as high school. I always said that he was the best all around player I ever saw. As far as all around players I go skill wise with Big O, Larry Bird and MJ. Lebron is a great player, but it you can't shoot from outside 5 feet and you have to push off to get your shot. Well what does that tell you about your skill level.

[ArbitraryWater]

If his stats are inflated, then how did NOBODY IN HISTORY duplicate it?

How is that the indication of stats being inflated or not? :biggums:

What a terrible argument... if anything it would seem that could be used as argument FOR them being inflated...

really really weird post here..

[Marchesk]

How is that the indication of stats being inflated or not? :biggums:

What a terrible argument... if anything it would seem that could be used as argument FOR them being inflated...

Point is that nobody else did it, even in the 60s. And if by "it", we adjust to just averaging a triple double, nobody has every done "it" for a season, but Oscar.

So it doesn't have to be a 30 point triple double, it could just be 10/10/10. But nobody else put that up (Wilt and maybe Russell being the only unofficial exception if blocks had been counted).

And that includes the ABA, btw. If you go search for 10/10/10 on BR, Oscar is the only one to come up.

[INDI]

First I would like to say that it's nice to not have really been on here for the last year, only to come back and see my 2 year old post at the top of the list!:rockon:

Secondly I would like to add that I talked with a old head last week that said he saw Oscar play in his prime. His assessment was the closest player he ever saw to what Oscars game looked like is James Harden. I asked him why so, and he said Oscar use to size people up the same way and blow by his defender Every time. He also said what's not talked about is the fact that Oscar was also a lockdown defender.

[Straight_Ballin]

He is top 10 on most lists

[Cold soul]

Oscar just right outside top 10 in last decade Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron overtook him.

[houston]

overrated he didn't impact on winning like that

[WillC]

I actually think he's the most underrated legend of all-time.

Back at the turn of the century, he was voted the 2nd greatest player of all-time (behind only MJ).

Fast forward a decade or so, any people whine about things like "didn't win enough championships" and "the pace was faster back then so the triple-double doesn't count" and nonsense like that.

Fact is, he had no weakness. He's definitely a top 10 player of all-time.

[kshutts1]

I actually think he's the most underrated legend of all-time.

Back at the turn of the century, he was voted the 2nd greatest player of all-time (behind only MJ).

Fast forward a decade or so, any people whine about things like "didn't win enough championships" and "the pace was faster back then so the triple-double doesn't count" and nonsense like that.

Fact is, he had no weakness. He's definitely a top 10 player of all-time.
Citation?

Because I have this....
http://www.nabc.org/awards/century_celebration
...showing him as THE player of the century (aka all time when it was voted upon). And the voting was done in 2000, which means it included Jordan.