NSA helped UK set up similar system; NSA Whistleblower revealed

[falc39]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

[QUOTE]London

[Rasheed1]

Basically threw away his good life just to get this info out. Very few people in that situation would do it. Props to him

indeed..

[MavsSuperFan]

Shame on the guardian for revealing his identity. After seeing what Obama has done to Bradley Manning How can they justify revealing this hero's identity?

(Manning is a hero imo, I mean we are always asking soldiers to stand up to their commanders when they are ordered to commit war crimes, and yet we punish this hero who exposed the time American gunships killed innocent Iraqis (including a reuters reporter) and laughed about it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_HsQTCieg

How can Obama support imprisoning this hero.

[Rasheed1]

Shame on the guardian for revealing his identity. After seeing what Obama has done to Bradley Manning How can they justify revealing this hero's identity?

(Manning is a hero imo, I mean we are always asking soldiers to stand up to their commanders when they are ordered to commit war crimes, and yet we punish this hero who exposed the time American gunships killed innocent Iraqis (including a reuters reporter) and laughed about it.)


I was like that too

But he gave them permission to give his identity

[miller-time]

How can Obama support imprisoning this hero.

He might not personally, but he has to play the game :(

[Nanners]

Shame on the guardian for revealing his identity. After seeing what Obama has done to Bradley Manning How can they justify revealing this hero's identity?

(Manning is a hero imo, I mean we are always asking soldiers to stand up to their commanders when they are ordered to commit war crimes, and yet we punish this hero who exposed the time American gunships killed innocent Iraqis (including a reuters reporter) and laughed about it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_HsQTCieg

How can Obama support imprisoning this hero.

... the guy asked the guardian to reveal his identity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20full-width-1%20bento-box:Bento%20box:Position1


From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.

he is holed up inside a hotel room in hong kong right now.

[Draz]

He's probably going to get killed.

[falc39]

He's probably going to get killed.

You can tell from his interview and his tone.... dude was basically saying you can't run from the CIA. I think one of the reasons he went public with his identity is because it might actually help him survive/stay free if there is enough public backlash at the govt and enough people supporting him or willing to help

That one part where he said.... yeah, im in a hotel in hong kong and there is a cia office down the street translates to "im screwed"

[KingBeasley08]

Props to this man. Obama has turned out to be Bush 2.0

[knickballer]

Props to this man. Obama has turned out to be Bush 2.0

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EiqUYieCyOs/T0K-LZWtTBI/AAAAAAAAD2s/8JsezPJgSkA/s1600/Obama%2BCaesar.jpg

[Lebowsky]

wonder if he'll get asylum in china

or if china will just deport him...
I bet Hong Kong will eventually deport him. I read he'd like to apply for asylum in Iceland.

[LJJ]

I bet Hong Kong will eventually deport him. I read he'd like to apply for asylum in Iceland.

Eh. China generally loves to show how little they care about western political pressure. Especially considering the high and mighty attitude "we" have in regards to China's imprisonment of state enemies, this guy might be a nice mascot of western tyranny for them.

Next time the US comes whining about Liu Xiaobo they can just point to this dude.

[Lebowsky]

Eh. China generally loves to show how little they care about western political pressure. Especially considering the high and mighty attitude "we" have in regards to China's imprisonment of state enemies, this guy might be a nice mascot of western tyranny for them.

Next time the US comes whining about Liu Xiaobo they can just point to this dude.
Yes, but this guy is nobody to them, I don't think they will risk polluting their diplomatic relationship with the US over this man.

[longhornfan1234]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EiqUYieCyOs/T0K-LZWtTBI/AAAAAAAAD2s/8JsezPJgSkA/s1600/Obama%2BCaesar.jpg


Obama is a moderate Republican. I have been saying this for awhile. KevinNYC will try to debunk this soon.

[LJJ]

Yes, but this guy is nobody to them, I don't think they will risk polluting their diplomatic relationship with the US over this man.

That sounds exactly like China-US diplomacy to me. Both of them love to stick their fingers in each other's eye for no reason or than show who has the biggest manhood.

It's like when the US isn't afraid to risk polluting their relationship with China by presenting the utterly insignificant Dalai Lama with the international freedom medal (or some shit), or when China is not-so-secretly organizing massive hacking raids on US intelligence and starts taking bits of India just to gauge response.

China could just as easily throw the US a bone and get a little something in return, but going to China in this situation is a better bet than most if you ask me. Guy is ****ed if the US gets a hold of him though.

[rufuspaul]

That sounds exactly like China-US diplomacy to me. Both of them love to stick their fingers in each other's eye for no reason or than show who has the biggest manhood.

It's like when the US isn't afraid to risk polluting their relationship with China by presenting the utterly insignificant Dalai Lama with the international freedom medal (or some shit), or when China is not-so-secretly organizing massive hacking raids on US intelligence and starts taking bits of India just to gauge response.

China could just as easily throw the US a bone and get a little something in return, but going to China in this situation is a better bet than most if you ask me. Guy is ****ed if the US gets a hold of him though.


If he's so insignificant then why would China care if we give him a medal?

[LJJ]

If he's so insignificant then why would China care if we give him a medal?

Because he's a traitor to the Chinese state.


Make no mistake, the Dalai Lama is currently exclusively in the picture because he's a convenient rock to throw at China. The West is outraged over the Tiananmen protests crackdown? Lets give the Dalai Lama a nobel prize. Lu Xiaobo goes to prison? Let's throw the Dalai Lama a banquet. Even though everybody in a position of power knows the Dalai Lama is a total hack who started preaching about democracy and peace only after he himself failed at becoming a dictator through violence and tyranny.

[MavsSuperFan]

Yes, but this guy is nobody to them, I don't think they will risk polluting their diplomatic relationship with the US over this man.

The US does all the time. they would do it just to make a point.

[MavsSuperFan]

If he's so insignificant then why would China care if we give him a medal?

He is significant to the chinese. China asserts that it has controlled tibet since the early Qing dynasty. Functionally of course this is untrue as Mao had to invade Tibet in the 1950s (The tibetans paid the Qing dynasty tribute to avoid military conflict in the past, but its ridiculous to say China had functional control of tibet before their invasion in the 1950s).

The Chinese consider him a major threat. And they are right, he is a person that the Tibetans might rally around in an independence movement. Somewhat similar to the way black south africans rallied around Mandela. Of course china in 2013 is significantly stronger than apartheid south africa and There are 1 billion + han chinese that see tibet as an integral part of china. So dont hold your breath on tibetan independence.

[bmulls]

This story can not be allowed to simply go away. I am waiting for more information before I formulate an opinion, but if what he alleges is true then the US government is in serious violation of the constitution. That level of surveillance is straight out of 1984. Something must be done, and we as citizens can't let the government/NSA get off easily.

[miller-time]

This story can not be allowed to simply go away. I am waiting for more information before I formulate an opinion, but if what he alleges is true then the US government is in serious violation of the constitution. That level of surveillance is straight out of 1984. Something must be done, and we as citizens can't let the government/NSA get off easily.

Honestly, you guys know I am far and away from conspiracy theories and I am happy to accept a reasonably measured amount of governmental control and regulation. But this is seriously beyond the scope of reasonable or necessary. It is down right scary. The 1984 and Brave New World comparisons are becoming more apt by the day.

[daily]

Props to this man. Obama has turned out to be Bush 2.0
I'd argue he's worse. Obama's platform while running for president was condemning Bush and the Bush Whitehouse for these and other infringements on peoples liberties. Obama has done nothing but escalate many of the very things he promised he'd stop.

[knickballer]

This story can not be allowed to simply go away. I am waiting for more information before I formulate an opinion, but if what he alleges is true then the US government is in serious violation of the constitution. That level of surveillance is straight out of 1984. Something must be done, and we as citizens can't let the government/NSA get off easily.

After 9/11 with the patriot act it's all inevitable. Slowly but surely we'll be in a police state where people don't even know, it's all taking one step at a time.

Notice how the media glorifies terrorism and other bizarre events(like mass shootings) as a tool to trick the public into thinking it's actually a serious threat when stats show that more people die from getting struck by lighting than a terrorist act(i don't even think anyone in the US died from a terrorist act from 2006-2011 or something).

The government will say they are doing this to keep us safe but we all know they are using it to keep us in check. #datoligarchy

It's the same thing with guns. I'm not a gun enthusiast(never was, never will, don't promote it) but notice how all of a sudden these mass shootings pop out of everywhere? Next thing we'll know the second amendment will be annulled. Probably because you can't have a police state without an armed population.

[Rasheed1]

The sh*t is officially hitting the fan and I love it :applause:

Shine a light on these roaches and watch them run ...:cheers:

[daily]

The sh*t is officially hitting the fan and I love it :applause:

Shine a light on these roaches and watch them run ...:cheers:Nothing will happen because most people don't care if they monitor electronic communications.

[knickballer]

Honestly, you guys know I am far and away from conspiracy theories and I am happy to accept a reasonably measured amount of governmental control and regulation. But this is seriously beyond the scope of reasonable or necessary. It is down right scary. The 1984 and Brave New World comparisons are becoming more apt by the day.

Our government has created false flag attacks to sell to the public to pursue their own goals. Classic events like the sinking of the USS Maine, Lusitania, Alamo, Gulf of Tomkin bay, etc, were all staged by the US to enter War so they can sell it to the public.

What makes it different today? Government wants more spying and monitoring? Just create a false flag terrorist incident.

[Rasheed1]

Nothing will happen because most people don't care if they monitor electronic communications.


Most people actually are against this.. Ive seen a poll or two.. and secondly it doesnt matter as much as the intense heat from the exposure that will halt (even if only for a time) this program..

Like I said, this is akin to turning on the lights and watching the roaches scatter...

You think these companies want to be involved in this scandal? You think Obama want his precious legacy scarred with this "Bush" type scandal?

it is compounding on Obama after the reporter scandal and IRS thing... Now he has this major situation to deal with and the jig is up for him.. The lies have to stop..

I also think the whistleblower did a good thing by outing himself so it would be a big deal whatever happens to him.. People know who he is now and his fate will be a story regardless.. Same with Glenn Greenwald (who I think is a brilliant journalist)... Greenwald basically is saying f*ck them.. they need to respect the 1st and 4th amendments to the constitution... There will be lawsuits as a result of this news..

People love to piggyback off of a brave individual, and now this is news and this is law suit material...

this is exactly why the government tried so hard to keep it secret, because it tarnishes so many groups if the public finds out.. Google and youtube, and yahoo and facebook all have denials.. they dont want their customer knowing they they just give away this info for the government to spy on us... This is ugly stuff and and the sh*t is hitting the fan just like should

i love it :cheers:

[daily]

Most people actually are against this.. Ive seen a poll or two.. and secondly it doesnt matter as much as the intense heat from the exposure that will halt (even if only for a time) this program..

Like I said, this is akin to turning on the lights and watching the roaches scatter...

You think these companies want to be involved in this scandal? You think Obama want his precious legacy scarred with this "Bush" type scandal?

it is compounding on Obama after the reporter scandal and IRS thing... Now he has this major situation to deal with and the jig is up for him.. The lies have to stop..

I also think the whistleblower did a good thing by outing himself so it would be a big deal whatever happens to him.. People know who he is now and his fate will be a story regardless.. Same with Glenn Greenwald (who I think is a brilliant journalist)... Greenwald basically is saying f*ck them.. they need to respect the 1st and 4th amendments to the constitution... There will be lawsuits as a result of this news..

People love to piggyback off of a brave individual, and now this is news and this is law suit material...

this is exactly why the government tried so hard to keep it secret, because it tarnishes so many groups if the public finds out.. Google and youtube, and yahoo and facebook all have denials.. they dont want their customer knowing they they just give away this info for the government to spy on us... This is ugly stuff and and the sh*t is hitting the fan just like should

i love it :cheers:

It's nice to have dreams but like I said nothing will happen.

People don't care if the government looks to see where their phone calls are being made to and they certainly don't care about e-mails. A vast majority of the public is made up of law abiding citizens who have nothing to fear from this type of intrusion. I'd venture to say that many welcome it or embrace it as a way to have early warning of possible terrorist attacks

You keep beating that angry guy drum though, maybe somebody will listen to you

[knickballer]

BTW, was this the law that was passed or voted on immediately after the Boston bombings? Perfect timing eh?

As to Rasheed's post I hope the ball can get rolling. We've had the whole wiki leaks situation going on for years with alot of leaked info out and with the handling of the owner but it still hasn't produced an "awakening".

[daily]

:roll: What?I know :lol

[Rasheed1]

It's nice to have dreams but like I said nothing will happen.

People don't care if the government looks to see where their phone calls are being made to and they certainly don't care about e-mails. A vast majority of the public is made up of law abiding citizens who have nothing to fear from this type of intrusion.

You keep beating that angry guy drum though, maybe somebody will listen to you


you can laugh at me and call me an "angry guy" but I still have hope that the American people will would wake up if they understand what is at stake before it is too late..

So far these past few weeks have been a perfect storm and a nightmare for the Obama admin... It has resulted in him waking up the press corps (which is the key and the 4th estate) and now the story is big news and it is set to stay in the news until the situation plays itself out..

if Snowden get arrested in a month, and year? it will be big news... If they go after Greenwald? he is a lawyer and it will also be big news..

I think there are enough americans who are tired of this sh*t and now this is in the public sphere, there will have to be some real resolutions to these issues.

[falc39]

It's nice to have dreams but like I said nothing will happen.

People don't care if the government looks to see where their phone calls are being made to and they certainly don't care about e-mails. A vast majority of the public is made up of law abiding citizens who have nothing to fear from this type of intrusion.

You keep beating that angry guy drum though, maybe somebody will listen to you

I can be negative at times with the grim reality, but what's the point of this kind of argument?

This is much better than having no whistleblower and letting it go for many more years unbeknownst to the public.

The exposure has big implications, not just to US citizens, but to everyone in the world. Everyone is aware of what the NSA is doing now. It changes the dynamic. It brings a real discussion to the table. At the least, America's image is at stake here, and it has been tarnished badly with scandal after scandal. In the end, no matter what happens, the history books wont be able to say anymore that it caught us by surprise or that we couldn't see it coming... we own this problem now even if people want to be ignorant of it.

[knickballer]

I can be negative at times with the grim reality, but what's the point of this kind of argument?

This is much better than having no whistleblower and letting it go for many more years unbeknownst to the public.

The exposure has big implications, not just to US citizens, but to everyone in the world. Everyone is aware of what the NSA is doing now. It changes the dynamic. It brings a real discussion to the table. At the least, America's image is at stake here, and it has been tarnished badly with scandal after scandal. In the end, no matter what happens, the history books wont be able to say anymore that it caught us by surprise or that we couldn't see it coming... we own this problem now even if people want to be ignorant of it.

You know what's sad? The discussion will continue to be abortion or gay rights. Useless topics that are meaningless for 99% of the population.

There's no real debate in the US only stupid unimportant BS that gets the populace distracted.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It really doesn't surprise me. I always assumed people were being monitored on the internet for potential links to certain crimes, and terrorism was obviously one. Admittedly, it's weird, but I can't say I'm too bothered by it to be honest. I have no reason to believe I'd ever be considered to have any affiliation with terrorists or terrorist organizations. And even if I was, I wouldn't have been stupid enough to discuss such things online. Just like if you are doing anything illegal, it's common sense to never say anything incriminating over the phone, even with much more minor offenses. I understand why people feel it's an invasion, and I sort of feel that myself, but I don't think they'll give much thought to the average, law-abiding every day person.

[daily]

I can be negative at times with the grim reality, but what's the point of this kind of argument?



The point is nobody really cares. You really had to be told by a former CIA employee the government was monitoring where our phone calls were being made to? That our e-mails are scanned for "buzzwords" or they watch which countries they go to and that your phone company was helping out?

This is nothing new, it's been out there forever. There were polls about this very subject back after 911 and a majority thought it was a good idea then and the same will think it's a good idea now.

Everyone acting like this is some new deep dark secret revealed, it's not it's nothing new. All that's happened is some guy's ruined his life thinking he was going to do something positive when the reality is anyone with a brain knew this was going on. This is the greatest "duh" moment in the last 20 years

Honestly, if I had told you this was going on a year ago would you have said no way not in my country?

Edit, and right on cue my twitter feeds pops up with

Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic
Public Says Investigate Terrorism, Even If It Intrudes on Privacy

A majority of Americans – 56% – say the National Security Agency’s (NSA) program tracking the telephone records of millions of Americans is an acceptable way for the government to investigate terrorism, though a substantial minority – 41% – say it is unacceptable. And while the public is more evenly divided over the government’s monitoring of email and other online activities to prevent possible terrorism, these views are largely unchanged since 2002, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center and The Washington Post, conducted June 6-9 among 1,004 adults, finds no indications that last week’s revelations of the government’s collection of phone records and internet data have altered fundamental public views about the tradeoff between investigating possible terrorism and protecting personal privacy.

Currently 62% say it is more important for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy. Just 34% say it is more important for the government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.



http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

[IcanzIIravor]

Makes me wish I never left the agency.

[Rasheed1]

It really doesn't surprise me. I always assumed people were being monitored on the internet for potential links to certain crimes, and terrorism was obviously one. Admittedly, it's weird, but I can't say I'm too bothered by it to be honest. I have no reason to believe I'd ever be considered to have any affiliation with terrorists or terrorist organizations. And even if I was, I wouldn't have been stupid enough to discuss such things online. Just like if you are doing anything illegal, it's common sense to never say anything incriminating over the phone, even with much more minor offenses. I understand why people feel it's an invasion, and I sort of feel that myself, but I don't think they'll give much thought to the average, law-abiding every day person.


you dont dont know what the government considers to be terrorsist, or dangerous to their reign..

I would caution all Americans against using the logic that says "I havent done anything wrong"

Your idea of "wrong may not coincide with e government's definition of wrong.

Plenty of Obama supporters trust him, but the powers he secures for the executive branch extend to the next president..

when you allow a government to build a super structure that uses all technology to spy on everyone? you run the risk of being at the mercy of whatever they deem to be a crime..

I suspect (fortunately) that now that this is public knowledge, it will trigger a few class action law suits from customers of these companies and put a case before the supreme court of the United States.. I dont think Scalia (and even the uncle tom Clarence Thomas) view this as constitutional because it violates the 4th amendment on a couple of levels...

The outing of this secret, gives the American public the STANDING they need in court to challenge such a law.

We dont want the government building an apparatus which can build profiles of all human beings through spying ...

Ive worked for a school district and even they do data mining which is basically building profiles and collecting data on everyone involved in a program.

it violates the constitution and it isnt necessary to fight terrorism..

It only serves the purpose of giving the asking agency a total file on YOU..

That isnt necessary and Americans shouldnt stand for it.. It goes against everything the country was founded on..

ive argued with administrators about their shirking of their promise to the public to respect the privacy of their stakeholders..

data mining is very dangerous and the US government has gone full in on it, and now the public needs to be aware of it

saying "i havent done anything wrong" is a naive statement that doesnt address the reality of the issues at hand..

you dont know if you have "done anything wrong" in the eyes of the law, and you need to protect yourself from certain tactics that corporations and governments use to find out information on you...

protect yourself

[bmulls]

you dont dont know what the government considers to be terrorsist, or dangerous to their reign..

I would caution all Americans against using the logic that says "I havent done anything wrong"

Your idea of "wrong may not coincide with e government's definition of wrong.

Plenty of Obama supporters trust him, but the powers he secures for the executive branch extend to the next president..

when you allow a government to build a super structure that uses all technology to spy on everyone? you run the risk of being at the mercy of whatever they deem to be a crime..

I suspect (fortunately) that now that this is public knowledge, it will trigger a few class action law suits from customers of these companies and put a case before the supreme court of the United States.. I dont think Scalia (and even the uncle tom Clarence Thomas) view this as constitutional because it violates the 4th amendment on a couple of levels...

The outing of this secret, gives the American public the STANDING they need in court to challenge such a law.

We dont want the government building an apparatus which can build profiles of all human beings through spying ...

Ive worked for a school district and even they do data mining which is basically building profiles and collecting data on everyone involved in a program.

it violates the constitution and it isnt necessary to fight terrorism..

It only serves the purpose of giving the asking agency a total file on YOU..

That isnt necessary and Americans shouldnt stand for it.. It goes against everything the country was founded on..

ive argued with administrators about their shirking of their promise to the public to respect the privacy of their stakeholders..

data mining is very dangerous and the US government has gone full in on it, and now the public needs to be aware of it

saying "i havent done anything wrong" is a naive statement that doesnt address the reality of the issues at hand..

you dont know if you have "done anything wrong" in the eyes of the law, and you need to protect yourself from certain tactics that corporations and governments use to find out information on you...

protect yourself

Preach on. That is a very dangerous mind set.

[Rasheed1]

Preach on. That is a very dangerous mind set.


its a strange time when me & bmulls agree, but we do here n I welcome it

[IcanzIIravor]

so he's checked out of his hotel

and is currently missing

im sure by his own doing... doubt he's been 'captured'

Yep it was smart of him. Probably hiding out at an embassy or had flown out to a different destination that he can't be easily nabbed in. If his beef is strictly about the NSA spying within the USA on people not interacting internationally then I understand his concern. If it is about the NSA spying in general then he was pretty naive considering to get his ts/sci with poli he had to get a rigorous background check and go through extensive interviews. He knew in general what the agency is tasked to do.

[ispin69]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6228/governmenthasnothingtof.jpg

[Ne 1]

I would caution all Americans against using the logic that says "I havent done anything wrong"

"Have nothing to hide" is fascist-speak for "no privacy and freedom"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znTk4XPH1Ys

[IcanzIIravor]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6228/governmenthasnothingtof.jpg

Bradley did a dump without going over any of the data he gave to wiki leaks. I've a problem with that.

[Rasheed1]

as for the poster Shaqattack... I only responded to you because you come off as a guy who actually THINKS... that is something other thinkers can work with.. so props to you... no disrespect for qouting you..


you raise some some relevant points....

[falc39]

The point is nobody really cares. You really had to be told by a former CIA employee the government was monitoring where our phone calls were being made to? That our e-mails are scanned for "buzzwords" or they watch which countries they go to and that your phone company was helping out?

This is nothing new, it's been out there forever. There were polls about this very subject back after 911 and a majority thought it was a good idea then and the same will think it's a good idea now.

Everyone acting like this is some new deep dark secret revealed, it's not it's nothing new. All that's happened is some guy's ruined his life thinking he was going to do something positive when the reality is anyone with a brain knew this was going on. This is the greatest "duh" moment in the last 20 years

Honestly, if I had told you this was going on a year ago would you have said no way not in my country?

Edit, and right on cue my twitter feeds pops up with

Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic
Public Says Investigate Terrorism, Even If It Intrudes on Privacy

A majority of Americans – 56% – say the National Security Agency’s (NSA) program tracking the telephone records of millions of Americans is an acceptable way for the government to investigate terrorism, though a substantial minority – 41% – say it is unacceptable. And while the public is more evenly divided over the government’s monitoring of email and other online activities to prevent possible terrorism, these views are largely unchanged since 2002, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center and The Washington Post, conducted June 6-9 among 1,004 adults, finds no indications that last week’s revelations of the government’s collection of phone records and internet data have altered fundamental public views about the tradeoff between investigating possible terrorism and protecting personal privacy.

Currently 62% say it is more important for the federal government to investigate possible terrorist threats, even if that intrudes on personal privacy. Just 34% say it is more important for the government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.



http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

We will just have to differ in opinion, because I wouldn't call those percentages "nobody".

And seriously, I doubt so many people knew what was going on... not at this scale. Sure, everyone knew they may have been tapping phones, but it was a secret that the government had "direct access" to so many tech giants information... of every type of electronic communication. Unless you had access to classified information there is just no way for you to know that and which companies came aboard at what time.

But everyone can act like a know-it-all after the fact..... if it was the greatest "duh" moment, link a post of yours from the past that shows you knew it in this detail. The difference between you and the whistleblower is the whistleblower has more credibility and proof than you would if you were just going to come on a forum and said "hey, the NSA is doing this".

The whistleblower also released 40+ slides to the press... but only 4 or so actually got shown to the public. So he actually deserves more credit because if he actually got his wish, we would know soooo much more than we would've if he hadn't come out. There is still a chance the other slides can come out.

[ripthekik]

Lol he chose a bad spot in Hong Kong. Even some officials have already come out to say that if the US requests extradition, HK will do it due to their agreement etc.

But then again, there's really no place for this guy to go huh?

[falc39]

Lol he chose a bad spot in Hong Kong. Even some officials have already come out to say that if the US requests extradition, HK will do it due to their agreement etc.

But then again, there's really no place for this guy to go huh?

That's how bad it has gotten.......... when you can count the number of safe havens on one hand out of the whole world.

Update: looks like there is a good chance we will see more

http://news.yahoo.com/journalist-us-surveillance-case-more-come-050921834.html

[joe]

Privacy and innocent until proven guilty are cornerstones of American DNA. They're not worth conceding to any degree to fight terrorism.

I'll take my chances that I'll be killed by a terrorist. But that already concedes too much, because it implies that there's a reasonable chance I will be killed by terrorists if these extreme measures aren't taken. There's not.

[ShaqAttack3234]

you dont dont know what the government considers to be terrorsist, or dangerous to their reign..

I would caution all Americans against using the logic that says "I havent done anything wrong"

Your idea of "wrong may not coincide with e government's definition of wrong.

Plenty of Obama supporters trust him, but the powers he secures for the executive branch extend to the next president..

when you allow a government to build a super structure that uses all technology to spy on everyone? you run the risk of being at the mercy of whatever they deem to be a crime..

I suspect (fortunately) that now that this is public knowledge, it will trigger a few class action law suits from customers of these companies and put a case before the supreme court of the United States.. I dont think Scalia (and even the uncle tom Clarence Thomas) view this as constitutional because it violates the 4th amendment on a couple of levels...

The outing of this secret, gives the American public the STANDING they need in court to challenge such a law.

We dont want the government building an apparatus which can build profiles of all human beings through spying ...

Ive worked for a school district and even they do data mining which is basically building profiles and collecting data on everyone involved in a program.

it violates the constitution and it isnt necessary to fight terrorism..

It only serves the purpose of giving the asking agency a total file on YOU..

That isnt necessary and Americans shouldnt stand for it.. It goes against everything the country was founded on..

ive argued with administrators about their shirking of their promise to the public to respect the privacy of their stakeholders..

data mining is very dangerous and the US government has gone full in on it, and now the public needs to be aware of it

saying "i havent done anything wrong" is a naive statement that doesnt address the reality of the issues at hand..

you dont know if you have "done anything wrong" in the eyes of the law, and you need to protect yourself from certain tactics that corporations and governments use to find out information on you...

protect yourself

I hear what you're saying, and as I said, I have mixed feelings about it personally. I don't like the idea of the government having a file on me based partially on what I do on the internet, and who I communicate with but at the same time, I'm not surprised by these things being monitored. I never really believed that the internet was actually private so it's just not a shocking revelation to me. That's the primary reason I don't feel that strongly. While you're right that I don't know for sure if I've done anything wrong in their eyes, I'd be shocked if the government targeted me, or saw me as such a threat that they'd really pursue me.

I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to feel, though. I understand the outrage. And admittedly, I don't like the government being able to do certain things, such as being able to turn off some newer cars with Onstar. I also agree that I don't think monitoring facebook conversations or whatever will make much of a difference in the fight against terrorism.


as for the poster Shaqattack... I only responded to you because you come off as a guy who actually THINKS... that is something other thinkers can work with.. so props to you... no disrespect for qouting you..


you raise some some relevant points....

I saw nothing insulting in your post and took no offense. :cheers:

[ripthekik]

:lol


U.S. Senator John McCain called for the invasion of Hong Kong today in response to recent leaks about secret surveillance programs.

In an interview with BBC World News, the hawkish Republican said that by hosting the leaker, Edward Snowden, Hong Kong has proven itself to be an enemy of the United States.

"Either you're with us or you're against us," McCain explained to anchor Freddie Lyon, "and clearly the nation of Hong Kong is against us. By harboring this known cybercriminal they pose a clear and present danger to the American people.

"I don't want to hear about extradition or rendition or any of that nonsense. This man is a traitor and if we don't get him within 24 hours I say we need to start bombing the hell out of Hong Kong.

"Luckily this is a tiny country with no real military to speak of. I don't expect any resistance. We could probably destroy their infrastructure and occupy the entire country by the end of the week."
http://dailycurrant.com/2013/06/10/john-mccain-calls-for-invasion-of-hong-kong/

[LJJ]

:lol
"Luckily this is a tiny country with no real military to speak of. I don't expect any resistance. We could probably destroy their infrastructure and occupy the entire country by the end of the week."

http://dailycurrant.com/2013/06/10/john-mccain-calls-for-invasion-of-hong-kong/

:biggums:

Is this similar to The Onion?

[miller-time]

:biggums:

Is this similar to The Onion?

I assume so, I just hope something doesn't get lost in translation and some how we are all pulled into another war :(

[Take Your Lumps]

Taken from Obama's transition website:


Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.

http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/

:rolleyes:

[IamRAMBO24]

We will just have to differ in opinion, because I wouldn't call those percentages "nobody".

And seriously, I doubt so many people knew what was going on... not at this scale. Sure, everyone knew they may have been tapping phones, but it was a secret that the government had "direct access" to so many tech giants information... of every type of electronic communication. Unless you had access to classified information there is just no way for you to know that and which companies came aboard at what time.

But everyone can act like a know-it-all after the fact..... if it was the greatest "duh" moment, link a post of yours from the past that shows you knew it in this detail. The difference between you and the whistleblower is the whistleblower has more credibility and proof than you would if you were just going to come on a forum and said "hey, the NSA is doing this".

The whistleblower also released 40+ slides to the press... but only 4 or so actually got shown to the public. So he actually deserves more credit because if he actually got his wish, we would know soooo much more than we would've if he hadn't come out. There is still a chance the other slides can come out.

I second that.

Even though people had an idea of what the government was doing, it was never official and still a conspiracy.

This new revelation is huge.

[Jailblazers7]

Privacy and innocent until proven guilty are cornerstones of American DNA. They're not worth conceding to any degree to fight terrorism.

I'll take my chances that I'll be killed by a terrorist. But that already concedes too much, because it implies that there's a reasonable chance I will be killed by terrorists if these extreme measures aren't taken. There's not.

Yeah, the only way I would be ok with a govt program like this would be if the USA was like Israel and was under constant attack.

[daily]

But everyone can act like a know-it-all after the fact..... if it was the greatest "duh" moment, link a post of yours from the past that shows you knew it in this detail.

Here's a timeline of the history of NSA spying, like I said this is nothing new and it's been in public discussion for years now, I'm not acting like a know it all, I'm acting like a person that has followed this subject for quite sometime.

Just because it's "new news" to you doesn't mean I'm wrong or a know it all for having a wider or longer exposure to the subject matter.

read the timeline do some googling and you'll find tons of info that tells you this is nothing new it's been in the open for years upon years

here's a link, it's a site that's been following this topic for some time. I don't agree with everything but they are a good source of information gathering

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

[ALBballer]

The whole "I have nothing to hide" is a dangerous slippery slope. Imagine this information could be used against other ans policy can be changed with this type of information. Want something passed? Oh look this senator has a secret affair and if he doesn't pass this bill this information will be leaked. Did you ever write something personal via email? Well this information can now be used against you.

These are just some examples that can be used. Don't sacrifice your liberties for a false sense of security....

[nightprowler10]

Some people in here need to watch 'Enemy of the State'.

[joe]

Yeah, the only way I would be ok with a govt program like this would be if the USA was like Israel and was under constant attack.

Exactly, and to the extent terrorists do attack us, how much of that is because the US military was over there wreaking havoc to begin with? I would only accept something like this is 1) we were being completely neutral and 2) despite that still under constant attack.

[falc39]

Here's a timeline of the history of NSA spying, like I said this is nothing new and it's been in public discussion for years now, I'm not acting like a know it all, I'm acting like a person that has followed this subject for quite sometime.

Just because it's "new news" to you doesn't mean I'm wrong or a know it all for having a wider or longer exposure to the subject matter.

read the timeline do some googling and you'll find tons of info that tells you this is nothing new it's been in the open for years upon years

here's a link, it's a site that's been following this topic for some time. I don't agree with everything but they are a good source of information gathering

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

That's a great link with some good info... a lot of stuff I haven't heard of yet. Realistically, maybe 5% of the stuff (or less) in that timeline made it to the mainstream media/worldwide attention? That's why I believe Edward Snowden and the journalists' actions are needed.... to have any chance of progress we have to bring it to people's attention, and you can't do that without the mainstream media.


Some people in here need to watch 'Enemy of the State'.

One of my favorite Will Smith movies :D

[Lebowsky]

Snowden interviewed by Hong Kong's South China Morning Post. (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china)

[Jailblazers7]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/969955_10200232018831390_1090086478_n.jpg

[joe]

That's exactly why when I see the establishment lawmakers trying to convince the people "trust us, trust us, it's not being used that way and there is oversight blah blah blah" that I can't take it seriously one bit. After all the recent scandals, they serve as reminders of how inept our government can be in regards to oversight and accountability. They were giving free guns to mexican gangs. They had low-level employees in the IRS targeting political groups. etc etc. No one gets punished & no accountability.... And somehow, we now should trust them that they can properly oversee an operation in a scale so large and far-reaching with so much power...... yeah, right

oh, just let the secret courts handle it..... oh geez, that sounds like a great idea lol

I think that gives them too much credit to call them inept. I think they purposely set out to reduce oversight and accountability, and that's what they got. They're not stupidly inept, they're cleverly conniving.

[RidonKs]

debate on whether Ed Snowden is a hero or a traitor between journalist/dissidant Chris Hedges and Chicago Law Professor Geoffrey Stone (who coincidentally first hired Obama as a constitutional law professor)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKmkxptPLSw

interesting look. Stone is pretty diplomatic here, refusing to venture any guesswork. I've yet to hear any good argument explaining precisely how this information could have weakened national security / endangered american lives. Greenwald has made a similar case in a few interviews he's done that's it's downright absurd to think that this exposure could have any impact whatsoever on America's official enemies.

what nobody in the establishment wants to say is that they're more concerned about their official allies. Apparently Jordan is the third most watched country after Iran and Pakistan. Brazil is pretty far up there. Just some very strange conclusions coming from the single snap shot of the "Boundless Informant" program that maps the world according to who the US spies on the most.




the underbelly of this story that isn't getting much reporting is the massive privatization of american intelligence. can't find the article but the mindblowing stat is that about 75% of american intelligence is currently outsourced to for profit enterprise.

[Rasheed1]

debate on whether Ed Snowden is a hero or a traitor between journalist/dissidant Chris Hedges and Chicago Law Professor Geoffrey Stone (who coincidentally first hired Obama as a constitutional law professor)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKmkxptPLSw

interesting look. Stone is pretty diplomatic here, refusing to venture any guesswork. I've yet to hear any good argument explaining precisely how this information could have weakened national security / endangered american lives. Greenwald has made a similar case in a few interviews he's done that's it's downright absurd to think that this exposure could have any impact whatsoever on America's official enemies.

what nobody in the establishment wants to say is that they're more concerned about their official allies. Apparently Jordan is the third most watched country after Iran and Pakistan. Brazil is pretty far up there. Just some very strange conclusions coming from the single snap shot of the "Boundless Informant" program that maps the world according to who the US spies on the most.




the underbelly of this story that isn't getting much reporting is the massive privatization of american intelligence.

article by a guy who's written a book on the topic (http://www.thenation.com/article/174746/modern-day-stasi-state) but the mindblowing stat is that about 75% of american intelligence is currently outsourced to for profit enterprise.

Ive done some data mining, and I can attest that the state wants all the information it can get, but it doesnt want to do the leg work. Programs are based on contracts (or grants) that spell out how the data will be collected and what the capacity of that data will include.

this makes it possible to build an almost any kind of report on one person or any group of people in the data base..

Each person, and all their various data (in this case, phone records, email, Internet traffic ect..) is put together and warehoused in a single data base, where it can be tapped for an infinite amount of reporting.. It will sit and grow forever. So 10 years from now I can search you out and pull up all your activities that fall within range of the collections and give comprehensive report to my superiors on everything you have done since we started capturing your data.. I could cast a wider net and show the numbers of people who have the same habits as you do and research reports are written and passed to the state based on this data.

It is a good thing that this is becoming news because their are alot of issues that need to be hashed out before this practice gets too ingrained in our systems..

It goes without saying that cannot trust the government private companies to simply use the data for the stated purposes, because the information it gives out is practically limitless.. Of course people will abuse it.

[Jailblazers7]

The problem with outsourcing intelligence and oversight is that it creates a lobby for more govt intelligence and oversight.

[falc39]

I love how all the stuff they are digging up on him just makes me like him even more. Would love to have a beer with him and shoot the shit, talk about everything from politics to video games. Apparently he was a pretty serious gamer.

I read in one article that he won a contest that got him hired by the CIA. Didn't read it anywhere else so I'm not sure if it's entirely true. But from other sources a lot of people said he was very smart with computers, and if he was hired without a HS diploma, then damn they must've seen something special in him.

He seems to have that self-deprecating humor too so he doesn't come off as conceited or cocky.

[knickballer]

I love how all the stuff they are digging up on him just makes me like him even more. Would love to have a beer with him and shoot the shit, talk about everything from politics to video games. Apparently he was a pretty serious gamer.

I read in one article that he won a contest that got him hired by the CIA. Didn't read it anywhere else so I'm not sure if it's entirely true. But from other sources a lot of people said he was very smart with computers, and if he was hired without a HS diploma, then damn they must've seen something special in him.

He seems to have that self-deprecating humor too so he doesn't come off as conceited or cocky.

BRB, you're on the governments watch list for saying that

INB4 poster falc39 goes missing and suddenly becomes inactive

[rezznor]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1002960_682373798458743_1694330522_n.jpg

[SCREWstonRockets]

There's going to be nothing but porn in my "dossier"

[falc39]

BRB, you're on the governments watch list for saying that

INB4 poster falc39 goes missing and suddenly becomes inactive

Damnit, plane ticket to Hong Kong is expensive, I'm screwed

Hopefully Jeff didn't give nsa direct access to ish

[MadeFromDust]

What do all ewe Ishiots think are the "code words" or phrases that the Enn Ess Ayyy borg machine snatches up?

3 pts for the best/funniest guesses YOLO :lol

[bmulls]

http://i.imgur.com/NZurlmC.jpg

[MadeFromDust]

http://i.imgur.com/Nivyjj1.png

[joe]

What do all ewe Ishiots think are the "code words" or phrases that the Enn Ess Ayyy borg machine snatches up?

3 pts for the best/funniest guesses YOLO :lol


Constitution is one, no doubt about it!

[MetsPackers]

nitroglycerin white house George bush infidels pearl harbor allah Saudi Arabia

[OhNoTimNoSho]

After I die, my life's NSA browser history would be the greatest collection of porn of all time.

[falc39]

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/)


The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, a participant said.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed on Thursday that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."

If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.

...

It appears Snowden's claim is true...

"No One Is Listening To Your Phone Calls" -Barrack Obama (June 7th, 2013) :facepalm

[joe]

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/)



It appears Snowden's claim is true...

"No One Is Listening To Your Phone Calls" -Barrack Obama (June 7th, 2013) :facepalm

Unreal! I'm not surprised but it's just stunning to read it.

[joe]

People need to stop playing SIDES on this. It's not a Democrat Vs Republican thing. Every comment section is filled with "you conservatives only oppose this because Democrats are in power!" Can these people just focus on facts instead of resorting to their animalistic, sports team, Roman Coliseum nature for once?

[MadeFromDust]

NSA admits listening to U.S. phone calls without warrants (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/)



It appears Snowden's claim is true...

"No One Is Listening To Your Phone Calls" -Barrack Obama (June 7th, 2013) :facepalm
Debunked

http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-can-allegedly-listen-to-phone-calls-without-warrants-report-7000016864/

[knickballer]

NSA Agent caught snooping *video* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9gtV-rSyEc)


:oldlol: :oldlol:

[falc39]

NSA Claim of Thwarted NYSE Plot Contradicted by Court Documents (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nsa-claim-thwarted-nyse-plot-contradicted-court-documents/story?id=19436557#.UcKcQfmsh8E)



...

The FBI document was filed last month in federal court in New York as part of the government sentencing memorandum for one of the alleged plotters, Sabirhan Hasanoff, who is to be sentenced next week.

But the FBI deputy director, Sean Joyce, provided Congress with a different version of events Tuesday as he cited the stock exchange plot as one of more than 50 "terror events" that had been disrupted with the help of the NSA's secret surveillance programs.

"We went up on the electronic surveillance and identified his co-conspirators and this was the plot that was in the very initial stages of plotting to bomb the New York Stock Exchange," Joyce testified.

Asked whether it was a "serious plot" by one member of Congress, Joyce said, "I think the jury considered it serious since they were all convicted."

In fact, ABC News found there was no jury trial of any of the three alleged plotters. None of them were charged with planning an attack on Wall Street. Rather, all three pleaded guilty to charges including providing financial and material support to al Qaeda.

A U.S. official familiar with the case acknowledged that Joyce had "misspoke" about a jury finding.

...

On August 7, Hasanoff wrote in an email to his al Qaeda coordinator in Yemen, intercepted by the government, "I have visited the tourist locations you asked me about and will report to you after two weeks in detail."

The FBI report says the al Qaeda leader "was not satisfied with the report, and he accordingly disposed of it. (The report apparently lacked sufficient detail about New York Stock Exchange security matters to be as helpful as the Doctor had hoped.)"

The attorney for Hasanoff, David Rhunke, said the idea that the FBI and the NSA would use the alleged plot to justify the surveillance programs is "almost silly."

In his plea to the court ahead of sentencing, Hasanoff said "he deliberately provided nothing beyond what anyone could have learned from Google Earth, a tourist map or brochure." He said there was "no further discussion of surveillance of the NYSE or any other tourist sites after August 2008."

Yet, FBI deputy director Joyce repeatedly cited the case in defending the controversial electronic surveillance. "I sit before you today, humbly, to say these tools have helped us," he said.

...

Government credibility hasn't just crumbled to the ground, it's getting stomped through the floor now. Official after official is getting caught lying and distorting/exaggerating the truth. wtf is going on here..

How do you misspeak in front of congress? It's like the other guy who made the excuse that he told the least untruthful testimony or whatever. Is this for real???? :facepalm