Myth or Not: Players today better than before???

[veilside23]

we all know that we have good players today.. but are they really head and shoulders on the players that we saw years ago ..


when it comes to :

athleticism
skill
basketball iq


please leave a comment that is quite reasonable no need to attack me ..

i just want to make sure that all reasons are valid ...

[Foster5k]

Jordan, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem >>>>>>>>>>>>> better than anything we got right now.

[scm5]

Jordan, Wilt, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Kareem >>>>>>>>>>>>> better than anything we got right now.

I agree with everyone but Hakeem.

Hakeem isn't better than Kobe, Lebron, or Duncan.

[dh144498]

George Mikan >>>>>

[get these NETS]

because of the exodus of talent from college ranks

college game is not as good anymore


players in college leave before they get to develop some aspects of their games



creates a watered down league

higher % of near freakish level athletes in league but because of no development....

lower basketball skills and hoops IQ



Doc Rivers said this about gerald greene before waiving him"It's clear that nobody ever taught this young man how to play basketball"


as for euro players.....outside of AK-47(and rare exceptions like ginobili) same is still true about euros.....all play like small forwards regardless of height.....don't play defense....or board....

[Mr Exlax]

because of the exodus of talent from college ranks

college game is not as good anymore


players in college leave before they get to develop some aspects of their games



creates a watered down league

higher % of near freakish level athletes in league but because of no development....

lower basketball skills and hoops IQ



Doc Rivers said this about gerald greene before waiving him"It's clear that nobody ever taught this young man how to play basketball"


as for euro players.....outside of AK-47(and rare exceptions like ginobili) same is still true about euros.....all play like small forwards regardless of height.....don't play defense....or board....

:applause:

[KyrieTheFuture]

I would say the greats are no better or worse but there is more talent in the 4-12 on everyone's team than there used to be

Edit: That being said, there are less greats today than there were...a lot of great #2s and such but very few franchise players

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I would say the greats are no better or worse but there is more talent in the 4-12 on everyone's team than there used to be

Edit: That being said, there are less greats today than there were...a lot of great #2s and such but very few franchise players

I agree w/ this.

[Poetry]

but there is more talent in the 4-12 on everyone's team than there used to be

It's not "more talent," it's a different type of talent.

Less skilled in some areas, more skilled in others.

[Flash31]

Depends on what position
and what skillset youre talking about

People back then were better rebounders,defenders,and
could play longer and had way better post moves qnd skills
and almost EVERYBODY had a decent to good mid range shot

people nowadays are better athletes,are faster,can shoot from
long range better and the defenses are more complex

Old----current

athleticism-current
defense---old
post skill--old
energy---old
long range shooting--current
mid range---old
big men----old
guards---current
man to man d---old
complex team d----current
energy---old
longevity---old
hustle----old
efficiency---current

[CavaliersFTW]

It's not "more talent," it's a different type of talent.

Less skilled in some areas, more skilled in others.
Bingo.

[get these NETS]

more teams now than in say 1988

and team rosters are bigger now


just much more spots for nba players than existed in dawn of modern nba era

certain % of today's players never would have been on an NBA roster under old structure...


pre HEAT/ Timberwolves era

[IncarceratedBob]

Better, smarter athletes.

George Mikan, Bob Pettit couldn't hang in todays league but they DOMINATED their league.

All that matters.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It's not "more talent," it's a different type of talent.

Less skilled in some areas, more skilled in others.

Truth. That's good clarification thanks :cheers:

[scm5]

The players today are more athletic, I don't think that's arguable. Better nutrition and training techniques as well as a better understanding of the human body overall.

In terms of skills, there are some players today with skills that would amaze players from back then. Players back then were more fundamentally sound though. Think about Jamal Crawford's sick ass crossovers back then... more skills doesn't necessarily mean a better player.

Basketball IQ is also questionable. Defenses are different and you need to be able to read that. Zone defenses help the defense adjust better to a lot of situations. It's different than playing man, which is also still played today. Players might seem dumber today, but also, defenses are able to adjust more now.

[Leftimage]

Today is always better than yesterday. The same is true in every facet of society. When I hear a retired player attempting to diminish the stars of today, I automatically think to myself that person is either not intelligent or disillusioned.

It's important not to be arbitrary though.... would prime Jordan be the best player in today's league? Quite possibly. Was the league as a whole better in Jordan's era vs today? Absolutely not.

Improvements may not occur year over year, but decade over decade?

2000s > 1990s > 1980s > 1970s and so forth.

People may ''like'' the 90s or 80s style better, but each new generation is more talented than the last. The only problem is it can't be ''proven'', so dumb people will remain skeptical. Besides, this is America...1/3 people believe evolution is a myth for christ's sake.

[get these NETS]

dream team roster with starting 5 of magic jordan pippen barkley ewing

would serve ANY starting five of players before their era or after them

[NBASTATMAN]

I agree with everyone but Hakeem.

Hakeem isn't better than Kobe, Lebron, or Duncan.
:coleman:

[NBASTATMAN]

Depends on what position
and what skillset youre talking about

People back then were better rebounders,defenders,and
could play longer and had way better post moves qnd skills
and almost EVERYBODY had a decent to good mid range shot

people nowadays are better athletes,are faster,can shoot from
long range better and the defenses are more complex

Old----current

athleticism-current
defense---old
post skill--old
energy---old
long range shooting--current
mid range---old
big men----old
guards---current
man to man d---old
complex team d----current
energy---old
longevity---old
hustle----old
efficiency---current
:applause:

[Poetry]

Today is always better than yesterday. The same is true in every facet of society.

Bunch of scrubs apparently...

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/shake.gif

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1501716579/E_H_head.png

http://www.leonardo.net/p17.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg/220px-Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/K/Martin-Luther-King-Jr-9365086-1-402.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/M/Wolfgang-Mozart-9417115-2-402.jpg

http://www.artquotes.net/masters/picasso/picasso_selfport1907.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/200px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Thomas_Edison2.jpg/220px-Thomas_Edison2.jpg

[KyrieTheFuture]

Today is always better than yesterday. The same is true in every facet of society. When I hear a retired player attempting to diminish the stars of today, I automatically think to myself that person is either not intelligent or disillusioned.

It's important not to be arbitrary though.... would prime Jordan be the best player in today's league? Quite possibly. Was the league as a whole better in Jordan's era vs today? Absolutely not.

Improvements may not occur year over year, but decade over decade?

2000s > 1990s > 1980s > 1970s and so forth.

People may ''like'' the 90s or 80s style better, but each new generation is more talented than the last. The only problem is it can't be ''proven'', so dumb people will remain skeptical. Besides, this is America...1/3 people believe evolution is a myth for christ's sake.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life.

[Psileas]

Myth. These are humans no more than 2-3 generations apart. They are better prepared and have better technology at their disposal, but this doesn't make them better by default - in other words, they are not more talented, skilled and capable. Same goes for past eras compared to more modern ones.
Claiming otherwise is, honestly, not very far apart from the way racists think.

[Psileas]

Today is always better than yesterday. The same is true in every facet of society.

I guess you're talking about technology, but the bolded one is completely untrue. E.g, the societies in 1939-45 in almost every single country of the world were much worse than they used to be in the years before.

[CavaliersFTW]

The players today are more athletic, I don't think that's arguable. Better nutrition and training techniques as well as a better understanding of the human body overall.

In terms of skills, there are some players today with skills that would amaze players from back then. Players back then were more fundamentally sound though. Think about Jamal Crawford's sick ass crossovers back then... more skills doesn't necessarily mean a better player.

Basketball IQ is also questionable. Defenses are different and you need to be able to read that. Zone defenses help the defense adjust better to a lot of situations. It's different than playing man, which is also still played today. Players might seem dumber today, but also, defenses are able to adjust more now.
It would be a turnover and the crowd would boo the f*** outta him. You must understand rules were enforced differently back then. You had to dribble "palms down" - modern ball handlers appear "more skilled" due to today's incredibly slack ball handling rules, not necessarily due to any disparity in individual player skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U

[TerranOP]

There is definitely more competition to get in the current NBA then there ever has been, but this has a more significant impact on the total pool than on the best players.

I'd say at the elite level, players aren't that much better or worse than they were before. It's the mid-low tier NBA players that are much improved these days when compared to those from decades ago.

[JMT]

It would be a turnover and the crowd would boo the f*** outta him. You must understand rules were enforced differently back then. You had to dribble "palms down" - modern ball handlers appear "more skilled" due to today's incredibly slack ball handling rules, not necessarily due to any disparity in individual player skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U

:applause:

It's AMAZING the things you can do with a basketball when permitted to run with and carry it.

[CavaliersFTW]

There is definitely more competition to get in the current NBA then there ever has been, but this has a more significant impact on the total pool than on the best players.

I'd say at the elite level, players aren't that much better or worse than they were before. It's the mid-low tier NBA players that are much improved these days when compared to those from decades ago.
Purely speculative, and IMO untrue. Footage of roleplayers and bench players from the past do not appear to be any worse at playing and understanding the game of basketball than roleplayers or benchplayers today.

[TerranOP]

Purely speculative, and IMO untrue. Footage of roleplayers and bench players from the past do not appear to be any worse at playing and understanding the game of basketball than roleplayers or benchplayers today.

It's definitely speculative on my part, but it makes logical sense. If it's getting more and more competitive to get to the NBA, players that would've made it 15 years ago are in the D-league now. It's not necessarily just due to understanding of the game, as physical limitations probably play a big part as well.

[CavaliersFTW]

It's definitely speculative on my part, but it makes logical sense. If it's getting more and more competitive to get to the NBA, players that would've made it 15 years ago are in the D-league now. It's not necessarily just due to understanding of the game, as physical limitations probably play a big part as well.
Since when has it gotten more competitive to get in the NBA? :confusedshrug: This entire speculative line of thought you have seems based on an assumption, no?

[Flash31]

I guess you're talking about technology, but the bolded one is completely untrue. E.g, the societies in 1939-45 in almost every single country of the world were much worse than they used to be in the years before.



Not really
really depends on sports here,Big emen bak then were FAR BETTER THAN Today

Wilt,Kareem,Russell,Thurmond,Bird,McHale,Parish,Sh aq,Ewing,Mourning,Hakeem,Barkley,Malone,Robinson

theyre more athletic nowadays but skill is skill,perimeter players are better today but big men were better than by far

look at other sports as well
Boxing for example

Ali,Leonard,Robinson,Frazier,Foreman,Tyson,Roy Jones,Holyfield,Lewis,Oscar,Marciano,Louis
the heavyweight division sucks though the smaller weights are better

Floyd,Canelo,Ward,Pacquiao,Marquez,Hatton,Mosley

baseball

Babe Ruth,Jackie Robinson,Pete Rose

soccer
Pele,Mradona,Zidane,Beckham,Henry,Ronaldo(NOT CHRISTIANO BRAZIL)

nfl
Marino,Favre,Perry,Lewis,Bo,Namath,Rice



and yes evry country back then was worse bc of the technology,and the modern age now is better,but even though athletes have a clear defined advantage over the old now,.

Sports are a skill for the most part,athletes nowadays are more athletic for the most part,but skill is skill,The greats back then would still be greats today.

Sports are more refined now but are more based on athleticism than skill,though if you are skilled you become one of the greats or play for a very long time over your contempararies,

Woods,Federer,Duncan,Kobe,Battier,cp3,nASH,aLLEN,F loyd,Holyfield,Manning

skill is skill,and the stars of the past paved the way for people of today,if they didnt the star s of the future would be better than the stars of today by a wide margin bc they have a blueprint.
And back then skill was the key,skill ruled,nowadays people can run off athleticism but it only lasts so long

McGrady,Carter,Griffin,Howard,Nadal,Pacquiao,

[NumberSix]

Today is overall better. Whether or not the top tier guys are is a different discussion. Overall rosters are much better though. Guys who used to be starters in the league like John Starks wouldn't make a bench these days.

[CavaliersFTW]

Today is overall better. Whether or not the top tier guys are is a different discussion. Overall rosters are much better though. Guys who used to be starters in the league like John Starks wouldn't make a bench these days.
Right. In today's powerful NBA champion-team benches get rounded out by the likes of the mighty Brian Scalabrine. A more recent championship-team bench player like Joel Anthony (who actually STARTED for the Heat last season!) would actually be dominant in the 60's-90's. Up there with 80's bench centers like Bill Walton and Bob Lanier.


























:rolleyes:

[NumberSix]

Bunch of scrubs apparently...

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/shake.gif

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1501716579/E_H_head.png

http://www.leonardo.net/p17.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg/220px-Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/K/Martin-Luther-King-Jr-9365086-1-402.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/M/Wolfgang-Mozart-9417115-2-402.jpg

http://www.artquotes.net/masters/picasso/picasso_selfport1907.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/200px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Thomas_Edison2.jpg/220px-Thomas_Edison2.jpg
The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.

[Flash31]

It would be a turnover and the crowd would boo the f*** outta him. You must understand rules were enforced differently back then. You had to dribble "palms down" - modern ball handlers appear "more skilled" due to today's incredibly slack ball handling rules, not necessarily due to any disparity in individual player skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U

It would be a turnover and the crowd would boo the f*** outta him. You must understand rules were enforced differently back then. You had to dribble "palms down" - modern ball handlers appear "more skilled" due to today's incredibly slack ball handling rules, not necessarily due to any disparity in individual player skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRQ0FYhC0U


yep it would,Vince Carter would have been benched back then for "hotdogging and showing off"

Crawford would have got called for a travel every time,and Rondo would not get many assists at all and would be a role player defender because he can not shoot.

Back then assist were a catch and shoot automatically if you got the ball,you were not allowed to palm the ball and dribbling was strictly regulated,Defenses back then werent as complex as today but were more stringent and tougher man to man.And almost everybody ahd a mid range game or a post game.

Wilt Chamberlain didnt just score off of athleticism,he was the most skilled center ever,and whole teams gameplans were meant to stop him,today a center wreaks havoc even with the zone d,

Allen Iverson would not be able to compete back then bc his crossovers were called travels every time then,there was no 3 pt l;ine so teams had the paint and lane covered.

The stars just seem less athletic back then,but the rules were different back then so all these skilled dribblers today wouldnt have the moves they do but would be relegated to the old way of dribbling which would make it seem like they had less skill or were slower.Teams back then scored 120 pts on avg,people played heavy minutes,

Wilty,Russell were track stars and long jumpers.

Athleticism overshadows skill at times today,back then skill was the main key so iit seems they were worse.

Bench players are probably better today due to athleticism with refining a particular skill,but at the same time stars are stars and skill is skill .

[dh144498]

The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.

that's an increase in known knowledge, doesn't mean people have better brains. Athleticism can advance due to modern medicine and drugs, but basketball IQ is something else.

[Leftimage]

Bunch of scrubs apparently...

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/shake.gif

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1501716579/E_H_head.png

http://www.leonardo.net/p17.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg/220px-Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/K/Martin-Luther-King-Jr-9365086-1-402.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/M/Wolfgang-Mozart-9417115-2-402.jpg

http://www.artquotes.net/masters/picasso/picasso_selfport1907.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/200px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Thomas_Edison2.jpg/220px-Thomas_Edison2.jpg

Science as a tolerated field of study is 500 years old, which puts Einstein in the latest ''decade'' on an nba scale. He's the most brilliant dude on your list.

Caesar probably had the IQ of your average modern-day custodian. At the time this allowed him to excel.

[dh144498]

Science as a tolerated field of study is 500 years old, which puts Einstein in the latest ''decade'' on an nba scale. He's the most brilliant dude on your list.

Caesar probably had the IQ of your average modern-day custodian. At the time this allowed him to excel.

you know how?
:coleman:

[jzek]

'85-'95 had the best players in history - prime magic, bird, jordan, olajuwon, malone, pippen, etc.

[Leftimage]

you know how?
:coleman:

Reading history books + the power of deductive reasoning.

[NumberSix]

Science as a tolerated field of study is 500 years old, which puts Einstein in the latest ''decade'' on an nba scale. He's the most brilliant dude on your list.

Caesar probably had the IQ of your average modern-day custodian. At the time this allowed him to excel.
Debatable. His largest contribution was with large scale gravity, which his version of it for the most part isn't the one we subscribe to these days. His prediction of the relationship between speed and time was pretty fcuking genius though.

[Flash31]

The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.

The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.


A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT knows MORE about Science than Newton,BULL and SHT.

No A high school student does not know more about science than newton,

most of the principles bout science and theories and facts came from
Newton,Franklin,Edison,Bell

music notes and patterns and beat patterns came from the great composers of the past

Bethoven,Bach

all artists today base thier work on the past and have a blueprint and how things are from the past

Da Vinci,Monet,Raphael,Rembrandt,Picasso

buildings and sculptures and modern construction base their architecture on people and construction from the past



Without the blueprints and the foundations and the success of the past,the wORLD WOULD NOT ADVANCE AND WOULD NOT HAVE A POINT TO GO FROM.

yES AS A WHOLE MORE PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THINGS TODAY THAN THEN,BUT AT THE SAME TIME
People today are still learning and finding about the things the past did and learning from it.

A high school student does not know more about science,art,construction than these predecessors,a doctorate in the field that has years of experience most likely does though.

[Leftimage]

'85-'95 had the best players in history - prime magic, bird, jordan, olajuwon, malone, pippen, etc.

That argument is not a stretch, but it's hard to determine because:

(the point I am making)

The average player today > the average player back then.

[CavaliersFTW]

Science as a tolerated field of study is 500 years old, which puts Einstein in the latest ''decade'' on an nba scale. He's the most brilliant dude on your list.

Caesar probably had the IQ of your average modern-day custodian. At the time this allowed him to excel.
:facepalm That's a bust of Aristotle, not Julius Caesar ****wit.

[Leftimage]

Debatable. His largest contribution was with large scale gravity, which his version of it for the most part isn't the one we subscribe to these days. His prediction of the relationship between speed and time was pretty fcuking genius though.

His field of study before he entered it was a shell of itself. It hardly existed. I think in terms of progress it's the greatest observable ''leapfrogging'' in the history of scientific study. (a relevantly young history since the catholic church had previously snuffed out great intellect).

[NumberSix]

music notes and patterns and beat patterns came from the great composers of the past

Bethoven,Bach
No. Pretty sure musical theory existed a long time before Beethoven or Bach came around.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Leftimage]

:facepalm That's Aristotle ****wit.

Lol I wasn't going by the photos though. I used Caesar as an example to better prove my point, since there is a lot of evidence that indicates he was a pretty dumb ****.

[dh144498]

Reading history books + the power of deductive reasoning.

so according to your deduction, a good billion people today could do what Caesar did or better during his time.

:coleman:

[CavaliersFTW]

It's called evolution people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXKbgc6BUc0

...oh.... shit.

[Leftimage]

so according to you, a good billion people today could do what Caesar did or better during his time.

:coleman:

A good 100 million, provided that was their ambition.

[TheTenth]

Reading history books + the power of deductive reasoning.
Obviously you've never read those history books you mention because Julius Caesar was a political and military genius. Have you ever studied his military tactics where he defeated much larger armies, his bridge he built to enter Germany, his political maneuverings to reach the First Triumvirate with established greats such as Pompey and Crassus besides having little success at that point, etc.? I doubt it.

[K Xerxes]

Only in ISH could relativity be introduced into a basketball discussion. Only in ISH.

[NumberSix]

Obviously you've never read those history books you mention because Julius Caesar was a political and military genius. Have you ever studied his military tactics where he defeated much larger armies, his bridge he built to enter Germany, his political maneuverings to reach the First Triumvirate with established greats such as Pompey and Crassus besides having little success at that point, etc.? I doubt it.
Ever hear the phrase "the victor writes the history"? I'm sure in North Korean history books the Kim family is credited with everything, but that doesn't make it reality.

You ever notice that in history books, the king of the winning side is always credited with creating the winning strategy? C'mon son. Some things are so obvious they don't need explaining.

[Foster5k]

Obviously you've never read those history books you mention because Julius Caesar was a political and military genius. Have you ever studied his military tactics where he defeated much larger armies, his bridge he built to enter Germany, his political maneuverings to reach the First Triumvirate with established greats such as Pompey and Crassus besides having little success at that point, etc.? I doubt it.
And he still died by the hands of his own people. Hell, even his son had something to do with it.

Since we're talking about great conquerors, etc.

Alexander The Great > Julius Caesar

Even Caesar stated that compared to Alexander The Great he had done nothing.

[Flash31]

No. Pretty sure musical theory existed a long time before Beethoven or Bach came around.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

No. Pretty sure musical theory existed a long time before Beethoven or Bach came around.
:roll: :roll: :roll:


yes it did,but they were the major composers and leaders at the time and they improved upon the foundation to where it improved today

same like Newton,Edison,Bell,Franklin,Galileo

they improved upon the foundation and laid th groundwork for today

people are still studying them today

[KyrieTheFuture]

The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.


Good lord you can't actually believe this. This is just flat out incorrect.

[TheTenth]

Ever hear the phrase "the victor writes the history"? I'm sure in North Korean history books the Kim family is credited with everything, but that doesn't make it reality.

You ever notice that in history books, the king of the winning side is always credited with creating the winning strategy? C'mon son. Some things are so obvious they don't need explaining.
Of course, anybody who studies Caesar quickly realizes that he used large amounts of hyperbole, but there are many secondary sources, archeological evidence, and other ways that modern historians estimate what Caesar did, how, and why. There are numerous texts written about him which all expound upon the idea that he was a very intelligent man - and with much better diction and more compelling logic than you do. I'll believe the person with a phd rather than some psuedo-scientist with an insidehoops account, thank you very much.

[dh144498]

And he still died by the hands of his own people. Hell, even his son had something to do with it.

Since we're talking about great conquerors, etc.

Alexander The Great > Julius Caesar

Even Caesar stated that compared to Alexander The Great he had done nothing.

this still doesn't prove that 100 million people today could do what Caesar did or better.

:coleman:

[NumberSix]

yes it did,but they were the major composers and leaders at the time and they improved upon the foundation to where it improved today

same like Newton,Edison,Bell,Franklin,Galileo

they improved upon the foundation and laid th groundwork for today

people are still studying them today
Stay out of musical discussion. It's obviously not your field as made evident by the fact that nobody with even minimal knowledge in musical theory would say things like "beat patterns" or attempt to credit classical and baroque era composers with the creation of "musical notes".

[TheTenth]

And he still died by the hands of his own people. Hell, even his son had something to do with it.

Since we're talking about great conquerors, etc.

Alexander The Great > Julius Caesar

Even Caesar stated that compared to Alexander The Great he had done nothing.
I'm not sure, Alexander conquered a greater land mass but his battles were against a weak achaemenid empire and other weakened states/limited armies while Caesar fought against a greater range of people (Helvetii, Belgae, Arveni, Britannic tribes, Romans, Iberians, Greco-Egyptians, Pontics, and a Numidian-Roman force who usually bested him in numbers while many times had equivalent technology (in Roman civil wars.)

[NumberSix]

Good lord you can't actually believe this. This is just flat out incorrect.
Of course it's correct. How monumentally stupid would you have to be to think it isn't.

Isaac Newton was oblivious to the existence of DNA, RNA, evolution, electricity, quantum physics, relativity, etc... Of course a modern day high school student knows more than he ever did. Who would even argue?

[Rameek]

Think the NBA is deeper presently with ability and athleticism.
But the overall IQ of the 80's to the 90's were better. Most of the role players knew how to play the game and execute their role.
You can literally count how many teams in this league actually execute good basketball plays. You watch its about how I can out athletic you as opposed to out execute.

[Leftimage]

Obviously you've never read those history books you mention because Julius Caesar was a political and military genius. Have you ever studied his military tactics where he defeated much larger armies, his bridge he built to enter Germany, his political maneuverings to reach the First Triumvirate with established greats such as Pompey and Crassus besides having little success at that point, etc.? I doubt it.

Why yes, I have.

You should read up on semi-fictional interpretations.

[Flash31]

Stay out of musical discussion. It's obviously not your field as made evident by the fact that nobody with even minimal knowledge in musical theory would say things like "beat patterns" or attempt to credit classical and baroque era composers with the creation of "musical notes".

Stay out of musical discussion. It's obviously not your field as made evident by the fact that nobody with even minimal knowledge in musical theory would say things like "beat patterns" or attempt to credit classical and baroque era composers with the creation of "musical notes".


if you know your history you would know
how notes and pattterns and the 5-7 notes
were improved upon
but hey
And two I didnt credit them with the creation,they improved upon and made the standard to which laid the groundwork for today just like artists and scientists of the past

But I mean George Bush knows better right,he was a great president right

I mean Im not saying you dont know,but somebody with a George Bush avatar,seriously and you supportted him seriously can not be trusted upon to make any logical points

and considering that people study upon the notes and the 5-7.7-5 notes and patterns,and yes beat patterns format from them,yes
they didnt INVENT them,but they revolutionized them and laid the groundwork which is still studied from them Today

Anybody with any common knowledge of the Renaissance Era,the Musical history of beat patterns and note format,the Composers and foundation of music today WOULD KNOW

But hey,George Bush was the best president and not the most incompetent so what do I know

[TheTenth]

Why yes, I have.

You should read up on semi-fictional interpretations.
Your post is based on a true story...

[CavaliersFTW]

Of course it's correct. How monumentally stupid would you have to be to think it isn't.

Isaac Newton was oblivious to the existence of DNA, RNA, evolution, electricity, quantum physics, relativity, etc... Of course a modern day high school student knows more than he ever did. Who would even argue?
:facepalm A high school student recites what the are told, but most of it is meaningless to them and goes over their head. Simply knowing the existence of higher sciences (summarized in incredibly oversimplified texts) is not the same as Isaac Newton's level of understanding of the physical world. Isaac Newton could literally invent and write out the equations of how gravity works to PROVE how well he understands it. Your typical kid in highschool doesn't understand any of the shit they are told - let alone have an ability to write their theories of how the universe works out in the form of equations.

[NumberSix]

if you know your history you would know
how notes and pattterns and the 5-7 notes
were improved upon
but hey
And two I didnt credit them with the creation,they improved upon and made the standard to which laid the groundwork for today just like artists and scientists of the past

But I mean George Bush knows better right,he was a great president right

I mean Im not saying you dont know,but somebody with a George Bush avatar,seriously and you supportted him seriously can not be trusted upon to make any logical points

and considering that people study upon the notes and the 5-7.7-5 notes and patterns,and yes beat patterns format from them,yes
they didnt INVENT them,but they revolutionized them and laid the groundwork which is still studied from them Today

Anybody with any common knowledge of the Renaissance Era,the Musical history of beat patterns and note format,the Composers and foundation of music today WOULD KNOW

But hey,George Bush was the best president and not the most incompetent so what do I know
:facepalm

There are 12 notes. The 5-7 note groupings you're referring to are called scales. The 7 main church scales those composers used existed long before them and they didn't change or improve them in any way.

Seriously, just stay out of it. You don't know anything on the subject.


Btw. There is no such thing as "beat patterns".

[Poetry]

If it's getting more and more competitive to get to the NBA, players that would've made it 15 years ago are in the D-league now.

Before that they would have been in the CBA or USBL. There's always been an excess of talent in sports.

[JMT]

Before that they would have been in the CBA or USBL. There's always been an excess of talent in sports.

Quickly becoming one of my favorite ISH posters. :cheers:

[NumberSix]

:facepalm A high school student recites what the are told, but most of it is meaningless to them and goes over their head. Simply knowing the existence of higher sciences (summarized in incredibly oversimplified texts) is not the same as Isaac Newton's level of understanding of the physical world. Isaac Newton could literally invent and write out the equations of how gravity works to PROVE how well he understands it. Your typical kid in highschool doesn't understand any of the shit they are told - let alone have an ability to write their theories of how the universe works out in the form of equations.
I never said "typical" high school kid. I would doubt the "typical" kid even understands how a battery works.

An interested, smart high school student however knows everything Newton knew + and additional 300 years worth of knowledge gained since.

Just as I personally know more about evolution than Charles Darwin ever did. I know about the fusing of human chromosome 2. He didn't know that. Just like 100 years from now, high school kids will know more than I do.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I never said "typical" high school kid. I would doubt the "typical" kid even understands how a battery works.

An interested, smart high school student however knows everything Newton knew + and additional 300 years worth of knowledge gained since.

Just as I personally know more about evolution than Charles Darwin ever did. I know about the fusing of human chromosome 2. He didn't know that. Just like 100 years from now, high school kids will know more than I do.

I believe a distinction needs to be drawn. You may be AWARE of more things pertaining to things like evolution but Darwin understood it more. Just because you know a scientific law doesn't mean you understood it and what you are implying is that once Person B is taught something, they are immediately on par with Person A who taught it.

[NumberSix]

I believe a distinction needs to be drawn. You may be AWARE of more things pertaining to things like evolution but Darwin understood it more. Just because you know a scientific law doesn't mean you understood it and what you are implying is that once Person B is taught something, they are immediately on par with Person A who taught it.
Darwin certainly did not have a better understanding than I do. There was no fossil record in his day. He died long before the discovery of DNA. Don't be a simpleton. He didn't know 10% of what I know.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Darwin certainly did not have a better understanding than I do. There was no fossil record in his day. He died long before the discovery of DNA. Don't be a simpleton. He didn't know 10% of what I know.

So humble...you're right bro you're smarter than all of history's greatest minds because you read a textbook. We need a time machine so you can go teach them a thing or two.

[Poetry]

Don't be a simpleton. He didn't know 10% of what I know.

He was an innovator, with creativity. You are a parrot, aided by the crutch of other people's knowledge and the vast array of available informational resources. That's the difference.

[CavaliersFTW]

Darwin certainly did not have a better understanding than I do. There was no fossil record in his day. He died long before the discovery of DNA. Don't be a simpleton. He didn't know 10% of what I know.
Contrarily, I don't think you know 10% of what he knew. He collected and organized data first hand. Spent time in the Galapagos, etc. You read shit in books and watched some sh*t on the National Geographic channel with concepts and narratives being overly simplified to appeal to a wide audience.

A lifetime of 1st hand research > a 20-something's exposure to books and tv.

I don't care what additional studies have been done since his time that added to the pool of evidence to support his theory, he did thorough groundwork for a lifetime that lead him to propose, build, and refine his case for the theory of evolution. That's just your ego talking by thinking you know more simply because you have an awareness of DNA and the fossil record (which I doubt you pay much attention too anyways). You are disrespecting actual scientists who do actual work by thinking you can just piggyback a summary of everyone's work in the future and presume to know more than they did. I doubt you can name even 20 of the species Charles Darwin understood in incredible detail that he likely would have been able to spout off countless amounts of 1st-hand information on straight from the back of his mind w/o having to resort to a google search to see even a fraction of what he studied and how he studied it.

[Psileas]

The point is that things progress. These days, a high school student knows more about science than Isaac Newton ever did. The current generation always has the advantage of all previous advancements.

Well, exactly this is the reason the current generation isn't by its nature better than the previous ones, it just has more at its disposal. Today's greats stepped on the shoulders of more giants than the older ones did.

The only "real" advantage the current generation has over the previous ones is that it's numerically superior, meaning that more geniouses are likely to exist today than in any other period of history.

[veilside23]

this should be clear that we are suppose to discuss nba players because this is in the NBA forum not OTC... so please


lets put it this way

the best teams before against the best teams decade..


you really think this generation would dominate players a decade or 2 ago ?

[JMT]

this should be clear that we are suppose to discuss nba players because this is in the NBA forum not OTC... so please


lets put it this way

the best teams before against the best teams decade..


you really think this generation would dominate players a decade or 2 ago ?


Exactly.

I'd love to see the best teams of today vs the 80's Sixers, Lakers, Celtics, etc. Would be a real eye opener for some young pups.

[eeeeeebro]

watch the all star games in the 80s and 90s you'll see that there is WAY more SHOW TIME... And with bigs like david robinson tim duncan olajuan motumbo shaq ewing barkley these are serious skilled big men to build your team around. i believe that if you are looking for the better era you should keep in mind that old basketball had way more enjoyability to me at least

[La Frescobaldi]

Science as a tolerated field of study is 500 years old, which puts Einstein in the latest ''decade'' on an nba scale. He's the most brilliant dude on your list.

Caesar probably had the IQ of your average modern-day custodian. At the time this allowed him to excel.

You, sir, are a blithering idiot. That is all.

[La Frescobaldi]

Exactly.

I'd love to see the best teams of today vs the 80's Sixers, Lakers, Celtics, etc. Would be a real eye opener for some young pups.
which rules they played under would make a huge difference.

Several guys from the 70s have said they couldn't play under today's rules because when they played they had freedom of speech.

[NumberSix]

stuff
I'm not arguing that I'm more important to the field or a greater contributor. Just that I simply know more, which is obviously true. Just as future generations will without a doubt know more than I will ever know. That's the nature of progression.

Who do you think had a better understanding of electricity? Benjamin Franklin or a random guy in 2013 who works at a hydroelectric plant? You're a fool if you think the answer is Franklin.

[NumberSix]

He was an innovator, with creativity. You are a parrot, aided by the crutch of other people's knowledge and the vast array of available informational resources. That's the difference.
Yes, that is the difference and the entire point. Everybody who comes later has the advantage of easily attaining what others before did the hard work discovering.

[NumberSix]

Contrarily, I don't think you know 10% of what he knew. He collected and organized data first hand. Spent time in the Galapagos, etc.
Yes, that's the point. What took him a lifetime to discover then others after him can be learned in a much shorter amount of time because they've already done the hard part for us. That's the point.

It's just like how any 12 year old kid can learn to play Stairway to Heaven. It's already been written. The hard part is already done. It's much easier to learn what is already known.

[Dengness9]

Yes, that is the difference and the entire point. Everybody who comes later has the advantage of easily attaining what others before did the hard work discovering.


You are literally hated and/or not taken serious on this forum except for by the other bandwagon hoppers.

Your biggest problem is being objective like ive told you before. You post so much on this site I know you love basketball on some level. You are too worried about being an asshole though, so no one takes you for real.

I left the site for a while because of the quality of posters. I come back and realize I might as well engage the front runners because they rarely get suspended or banned.

You are the worst kind of fan, and everybody here knows it. And you post here enough, again, that we know you need it. Your post count says it all. Cant hold your tongue, and have to be a little bitch.

It be nice to talk hoops with you on a serious level one day. Without Lebron or Rose or Heat or Bulls coming into the convo. You attack me or the people of my city and the team from my city that i root for while you dont root for your hometown team and have changed your affiliation based off of an individual. Bulls fans on this site didnt create this culture. We all know who did....LBJ/Heat stans.....Kobe f boys also are out of control.

The name on the front almost never changes. Thats why im a Bulls fan for life. James wont be on the back of a Heat jersey, or for any matter, a jersey period for forever. And that is when you will hop to the next best thing. Thats what the Heat and the culture of their players and fans stand for. Not all of them, but oh so many.


And now lets see how many join dates after 2011-2013 we see attack me....

[NumberSix]

You are literally hated and/or not taken serious on this forum except for by the other bandwagon hoppers.

Your biggest problem is being objective like ive told you before. You post so much on this site I know you love basketball on some level. You are too worried about being an asshole though, so no one takes you for real.
You have it exactly wrong though. I'm not worried about not being an asshole. I'm not concerned if people online like me or not. You're not people I'll ever know in real life and we'll never be friends. It's not important if we like or dislike each other.


The name on the front almost never changes. Thats why im a Bulls fan for life. James wont be on the back of a Heat jersey, or for any matter, a jersey period for forever. And that is when you will hop to the next best thing.
What you don't seem to understand is that I was a Heat fan before LeBron James, and I'll be a Heat fan after he leaves. You make a better argument if you accused my of jumping on the "Heat bandwagon" when Shaq joined the team, because that would actually be true.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

I think we have more physical specimens now than before.

But I think guys were tougher and trained harder back in the day.

[Dr.J4ever]

more teams now than in say 1988

and team rosters are bigger now


just much more spots for nba players than existed in dawn of modern nba era

certain % of today's players never would have been on an NBA roster under old structure...


pre HEAT/ Timberwolves era

See, this is constantly repeated, but it's a myth. It is of course true that there are more roster spots with a bigger league and all. However, the US population is bigger as well. More people play basketball and see the moves of their idols with the internet and cable 24/7. Not only that, a whole world of players play basketball these days. There are FAR MORE players to choose from than there has ever been.

It's not even close.

[Dengness9]

You have it exactly wrong though. I'm not worried about not being an asshole. I'm not concerned if people online like me or not. You're not people I'll ever know in real life and we'll never be friends. It's not important if we like or dislike each other.




What you don't seem to understand is that I was a Heat fan before LeBron James, and I'll be a Heat fan after he leaves. You make a better argument if you accused my of jumping on the "Heat bandwagon" when Shaq joined the team, because that would actually be true.


You have posted 10,000 times on this website. You respond to everything about Lebron/Heat topics. You care or you wouldnt be posting day and night here. Try and act like you dont care but its just a defense.

And i see you miss the point of this forum anyway. Its for good basketball conversation but people like you ruin the site, and troll posting bullshit 100+ times a day. its whatever. You are just gonna continue because thats what frontrunners do.

Nice to see you admit to jumping on a bandwagon, thanks, didnt really need the admission though.

WHO WERE YOU A FAN OF BEFORE SHAQ WENT TO THE HEAT?

[NumberSix]

You have posted 10,000 times on this website. You respond to everything about Lebron/Heat topics. You care or you wouldnt be posting day and night here. Try and act like you dont care but its just a defense.
Of course I care about discussing basketball. That's why I do it. What I don't care about is whether you agree with my opinions or not.

If you think I'm wrong about something, present a convincing argument.

[andgar923]

It's not "more talent," it's a different type of talent.

Less skilled in some areas, more skilled in others.
I was gonna basically say the same thing in a paragraph or two.

Having said that, it hurts the game as a whole.

There may not have been as many power forwards that are as versatile as Bosh, but do you honestly want your power forward to play like a 2?

Tyrone Hill may not have been as athletic as some of today's big men or as 'skilled' in some aspects, but he sure as hell did a good job in the paint in a traditional PF role.

The role players as a whole were better for the positions they played in. Point guards played like point guards, forwards like forwards, centers like centers they played their role. They may not have had some of the same skills that some of today's players have, but they performed their duties.

And we've seen some of that in these playoffs and we see them every year. Blake Griffin is on a different level athletically and has some skills than most of his predecessors had. But he was getting chewed up by the likes of an old school era player like Randolph and Gasol.

The only thing that may keep the Spurs from winning again is age or injuries, not their old school pick and roll and style of play. They have the basic formula to play basketball pick and roll, pick and roll, big man-little man, moving, cutting etc.etc.


I still went ahead and made a long ass post :facepalm :banghead:

[Leftimage]

But I think guys were tougher and trained harder back in the day.

You mean Locker-room reefer smokin' doctor J ? Or sleepless nights o' gambling Jordan ?
IMO the one clear evolution over the past 20 years, it's the level of professionalism among the NBA's marquee players. With the exception of the post-Jordan slump (Iverson, jailblazers, etc) It seems there has been a constant improvement from the merger til now - as far as the average player's work ethic goes.

With regards to toughness... meh, it's hard to judge given how different the rules are for contact today. But considering the NBA's two biggest stars (Lebron and Kobe) are tough as nails, I wouldn't say it's become a less valued attribute. They both take mad contact, Kobe plays through injuries, Lebron is the teflon man.

[tpols]

You mean Locker-room reefer smokin' doctor J ? Or sleepless nights o' gambling Jordan ?
IMO the one clear evolution over the past 20 years, it's the level of professionalism among the NBA's marquee players. With the exception of the post-Jordan slump (Iverson, jailblazers, etc) It seems there has been a constant improvement from the merger til now - as far as the average player's work ethic goes.

With regards to toughness... meh, it's hard to judge given how different the rules are for contact today. But considering the NBA's two biggest stars (Lebron and Kobe) are tough as nails, I wouldn't say it's become a less valued attribute. They both take mad contact, Kobe plays through injuries, Lebron is the teflon man.
LOLwut? Lebron tough as nails? Op ain't talking muscle tone he's talking demeanor attitude tough.. In which case Lebron and new school are soft as tissue paper. Westbrook Chris paul and maybe a few others.. Zach Randolph, David west, etc those guys are tough minded.

[Round Mound]

'85-'95 had the best players in history - prime magic, bird, jordan, olajuwon, malone, pippen, etc.

[B]This. These Players Where Better Than Today

[Leftimage]

LOLwut? Lebron tough as nails? Op ain't talking muscle tone he's talking demeanor attitude tough.. In which case Lebron and new school are soft as tissue paper. Westbrook Chris paul and maybe a few others.. Zach Randolph, David west, etc those guys are tough minded.

Westbrook is tough for crying on the bench like a woman?

Lebron goes ****ing robocop when someone on the court gets too close for comfort. Tossed 7 foot, 270 pound Nazr Mohammed to the ground like a bitch. He guarded David West very effectively. He laughs off most attempts at intimidation.

Lebron is civilized. He has a sense of humour. He's a child at heart. He flops if he finds a good opportunity to do so. But you think anyone intimidates him in the NBA today? Gimme a break man. His strength infuriates defenders - you can tell by watching the games guarding Lebron is a physically painful experience.

''demeanor attitude tough''... I get the impression you're arguing Lebron gets phased when he has an off shooting night. Is this what you're saying? That he doesn't ''chuck through'' an off night? Or he is not violent enough for your liking? I don't understand.

Every attempt to phase Lebron has failed miserably. His worst enemy has always been himself. He's gotten hard-fouled throughout his career and never lost his temper. Is this weakness to some people?

[tpols]

Westbrook is tough for crying on the bench like a woman?

Lebron goes ****ing robocop when someone on the court gets too close for comfort. Tossed 7 foot, 270 pound Nazr Mohammed to the ground like a bitch. He guarded David West very effectively. He laughs off most attempts at intimidation.

http://www.everyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/nazr-mohammed-pushes-lebron-james.gif

Wait what?:roll: :roll:

Lebron was tough here? He flopped like a b!tch when the man stood his ground.

[joeyjoejoe]

I think players now are better shooters, more athletic and have superior ball handling skills. Maybe some get confused because of the lack of good bigmen in the league where in the 90's were more. There is a big difference in skill between todays players and guys from the 60's but that gap is a lot smaller as the decades roll on, I mean come on white guys that can't dribble, shoot ft underhand and have no athleticism wouldn't fare well today

[Leftimage]

http://www.everyjoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/nazr-mohammed-pushes-lebron-james.gif

Wait what?:roll: :roll:

Lebron was tough here? He flopped like a b!tch when the man stood his ground.


And if that is a flop in your mind, I also have a much greater understanding of physics than you.

In any case we don't match up well.

To me, not retaliating in this context is a sign of mental toughness, self-control and wisdom.

''stand your ground'' ?? Sorry man, thuggery doesn't impress me at all.

[tpols]

Sorry man, I don't share your bloodlust.

And if that is a flop in your mind, I also have a much greater understanding of physics than you.

In any case we don't match up well.
So Lebron is a robocop, your words, strong as an ox can 'throw' 270 lb nazr mohammod, but somehow Nazr can throw him twice as far as he threw him? What? Something isnt adding up.. you need extra hours with your physics prof.

[Leftimage]

So Lebron is a robocop, your words, strong as an ox can 'throw' 270 lb nazr mohammod, but somehow Nazr can throw him twice as far as he threw him? What? Something isnt adding up.. you need extra hours with your physics prof.

hahaha... standing with your feet together, looking away, even my 85 year old physics prof could put your ass on the floor. Then again why would he do that ? He's no thug.

Nazr Mohammed just lost his temper and did something he shouldn't have done. The only people who found it bad-ass are violent losers. I can't think of a more pathetic thing to do than attack someone who is not looking you in the eyes.

Lebron does not have a violent bone in his body. He seems like a gentle giant and a family-oriented guy. Not for everyone but I like them that way.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of on-court toughness.

[aj1987]

Typical ISH posters. Overrating Edison. The man was a dirty thief and liar. Disgusting human being all around.