Kawhi Leonard's ceiling?

[Inferno]

He's 21, playing in his first NBA finals, guarding LeBron, and getting 10+ rebounds every game.

Insane potential.

[AngelEyes]

multiple all star is his ceiling. He can defend and shoot the three, not to mention he's also a terrific athlete. I expect him to be much better next year.

[inclinerator]

allstar at best, he's lucky he's playing a scrub in lebron

[ConanRulesNBC]

I think he's a 18-20 PPG player and 10 RPG player in his prime.

[hitmanyr2k]

Depends on his work ethic of course. Hopefully he sees the big picture. That Spurs team is going to be his in a couple of years if he improves his offensive game to go with his defense and rebounding.

[SCdac]

His consistently growing offense makes him intriguing. Every game, he shows more and more.

He's got moves to score from all over, excellent jump shot, and the athleticism to boot.

I've said before I see him as a perfect 3rd option and more or less a role player (think prime Richard Jefferson) but as this new era of players is ushered in and the older player retire I can see him making AS games much like the versatile Shawn Marion did and being more of a franchise piece.

Easily one of my favorite players. Hope the Spurs lock him into another contract.

[Straight_Ballin]

I foresee this guy and kyrie Irving combining forces in the future to form a dynasty.

[Twiens]

Finals MVP

[tmacman]

Man, if Gerald Wallace can have a 18/10 season so can this guy. Dude's potential is out of the roof. Had no idea he was only 21 too.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I see 3rd option too.

But earlier in the game where he was aggressively looking for his own offense, that guy has a very high ceiling. Didn't really know if he had that mentality or not. Have to remember that he's a role player because he's playing with three HOFers in a system that doesn't allow players to consistently shine in a prolific manner.

What would Leonard look if he had to score in a different system? What will Leonard look when he has to score 1-3 years down the line after he's improved his offense? What will Leonard look like without Pop?

Fair questions, I think.

[HardwoodLegend]

Doesn't he have suspect knees? I foresee an early end to his career.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think his body is gonna give out.

[KungFuJoe]

I like Leonard a lot but his success is more from the system than individual skills.

He's doing a decent job guarding LeBron but he's also leaving him wide open daring him to shoot. Lebron is just choking big time.

[DonDadda59]

http://ballertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scottie-Pippen.jpg

With less play-making ability

[HarryCallahan]

Hard to measure his ceiling. Coming out of college he had no jump-shot and no ball-handling abilities, now he's got both in spades. He's young, blessed with all the right physical tools, humble, works hard on his game and plays for the best organisation and coach in all of basketball. Could be an all-time great, could be a career border-line all-star, either way i'm glad he's on my team.

[fos]

Poor Man's Chandler Parsons... aka a black Chandler Parsons.

[VIntageNOvel]

He's 21, playing in his first NBA finals, guarding LeBron, and getting 10+ rebounds every game.

Insane potential.

:confusedshrug: guarding lebron in nba finals aint nothing special

ask deshawn stevenson

[28renyoy]

Less wreckless Gerald Wallace with a jumpshot

[HarryCallahan]

Poor Man's Chandler Parsons... aka a black Chandler Parsons.

:facepalm

Not this again... He's better than Parsons now, and he's younger, more athletic, has better team-mates and a much better coach.

[B-Easy8]

He is probably the best role player in the game (him or Parsons) but lets not act like hes a star. Lets say Duncan, Parker and Manu retired, do you think he would be an all-star. He cant create his own shot.

[SCdac]

He is probably the best role player in the game (him or Parsons) but lets not act like hes a star. Lets say Duncan, Parker and Manu retired, do you think he would be an all-star. He cant create his own shot.

Where does this misconception keep coming from?

Kawhi has decent handles, good shot, is quick, strong, athletic and has created shots for himself all season.

Not to mention he was basically a lottery pick and mock drafts had him going as high as #9, #10, #11, etc

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/901/240/Lenoard_original.gif

[AngelEyes]

He is probably the best role player in the game (him or Parsons) but lets not act like hes a star. Lets say Duncan, Parker and Manu retired, do you think he would be an all-star. He cant create his own shot.

People can't improve? The guy is 21...

[SpurrDurr]

He's gonna become a lockdown defender, great rebounder and a 2nd or 3rd scoring option depends on the team.

He's the player that will bring a team to the next level, he is really well rounded for a forward.

On top of that he's really an humble and hard-worker guy; i remember reading that during his rookie year he bought an house close to the training facility and he still lives there with his mother so he can focus on his game.

[Ca$H]

He is outplaying LeBron. So he will take his spot on the top 20 GOAT list.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Next Shawn Marion:rockon: :rockon: do what MAtrix do to Lebron in 2011:rockon:

[SsKSpurs21]

http://ballertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scottie-Pippen.jpg

With less play-making ability

i would take this any day of the week, twice on sundays. to be even mentioned in the same category as scottie pippen is amazing. i dont think leonard is there yet, or if he will ever get there, but i sure hope he does.

[STATUTORY]

Where does this misconception keep coming from?

Kawhi has decent handles, good shot, is quick, strong, athletic and has created shots for himself all season.

Not to mention he was basically a lottery pick and mock drafts had him going as high as #9, #10, #11, etc

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/901/240/Lenoard_original.gif

:bowdown: that's a better spin jumper than what lebron has ever been able to do in his career

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Where does this misconception keep coming from?

Kawhi has decent handles, good shot, is quick, strong, athletic and has created shots for himself all season.

Not to mention he was basically a lottery pick and mock drafts had him going as high as #9, #10, #11, etc

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/901/240/Lenoard_original.gif

This misconception comes from people who are not Spurs fans, are not diehard basketball fans, and simply play NBA 2k13, use Leonard and find he cannot do a crossover dunk from the free throw line.

[Shade8780]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpsPG3FTKM

[dh144498]

better than lebron.
but whether he's better than lebron or not, he'll definitely be a better playoff performer when it counts the most. :applause:

[Shade8780]

Next Shawn Marion:rockon: :rockon: do what MAtrix do to Lebron in 2011:rockon:
I like the Marion comparison. The Matrix in his prime was a 20 and 10 machine with great defense. I think when Duncan and Gino are gone, he's gonna blow up and start putting up Marion numbers.

[andremiller07]

I like the Marion comparison. The Matrix in his prime was a 20 and 10 machine with great defense. I think when Duncan and Gino are gone, he's gonna blow up and start putting up Marion numbers.
He's already a better shooter than Marion has pretty much ever been so the comparsion is not to bad and he's a elite rebounding SF which is what Marion was although they are different kind of rebounders.

[rmt]

He's young and hard working so he can improve a lot. He has the physical tools - massive hands, long arms, athletic. I hope that Spurs keep TMac so he can tutor him on offensive skills cause he's got the defensive ones down pat. He also needs a lot of work on fast breaks/handling the ball.

[thefatmiral]

i hope he improves his offensive composure when he isn't making his shots, makes up for it though on the other end.

[kentatm]

His consistently growing offense makes him intriguing. Every game, he shows more and more.

He's got moves to score from all over, excellent jump shot, and the athleticism to boot.

I've said before I see him as a perfect 3rd option and more or less a role player (think prime Richard Jefferson) but as this new era of players is ushered in and the older player retire I can see him making AS games much like the versatile Shawn Marion did and being more of a franchise piece.

Easily one of my favorite players. Hope the Spurs lock him into another contract.


I agree that he can be a Shawn Marion type player.

I am really impressed with how much he has improved over the year.

[All Net]

All star for certain

[kshutts1]

http://ballertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Scottie-Pippen.jpg

With less play-making ability

So The Matrix? I agree. Good comparison.

[kshutts1]

He's already a better shooter than Marion has pretty much ever been so the comparsion is not to bad and he's a elite rebounding SF which is what Marion was although they are different kind of rebounders.

Getting away from specific similarities, and using more generalized ones..

Marion was a ferocious, tenacious, shut down defender.
Kawhi is on his way there

Marion had a limited, yet effective offensive game, mostly on put-backs and open shots thanks to Nash.
Kawhi is also limited, though has a (slightly) better shot off the dribble and corner 3 (though not 3p all around).

[Bobcats2013]

99 potential on 2K14.

Signature skills:
Lockdown defender
Active Hands
Defensive Anchor

Durability: 65

He's only going to get better but the knees man the knees.

[TheFan]

Stephen Jackson.

[jzek]

Latrell Sprewell

[Mrofir]

agree with the shawn marion comparisons.

[get these NETS]

have two words for OP

TREVOR ARIZA

[get these NETS]

trevor ariza was "the next pippen"..future all star..yada yada yada

left the lakers and never heard from again


leonard is talented but he's a COMPLEMENTARY player...never forget that

put a young coachable talented player on a good team with good coach and all time great player and he looks a lot better than he actually would be with PRESSURE on him night in and night out to perform


there were two players on the malone/stockton Jazz that I thought would be emerging players in their own rights

stockton's backup pg...eisly ...and dude last name anderson... they were average players at best

[RoseCity07]

Gerald Wallace with a better shot but less shot blocking and poster plays.

[It's A VC3!!!]

i would say gerald wallace but he can't score like gerald used to. he can rebound and defend like gerald used to but his offense is much, much weaker than gerald's.

gerald had a season where he averaged 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg, 2.5 spg, and 2.1 bpg. talk about an all around perfect stat line. i don't know if kawhi can get to that all around game but maybe that could be his ceiling.

[millwad]

i would say gerald wallace but he can't score like gerald used to. he can rebound and defend like gerald used to but his offense is much, much weaker than gerald's.

gerald had a season where he averaged 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg, 2.5 spg, and 2.1 bpg. talk about an all around perfect stat line. i don't know if kawhi can get to that all around game but maybe that could be his ceiling.

Yeah, I think that's his ceiling as well.

Although I'm still not too impressed by his offense, haven't seen him create for others and him scoring is equal with him getting open looks.

He has only scored 20 points or more 6 times in his career and his assists numbers are really weak. He's a role player.

[TheFan]

trevor ariza was "the next pippen"..future all star..yada yada yada

left the lakers and never heard from again


leonard is talented but he's a COMPLEMENTARY player...never forget that

put a young coachable talented player on a good team with good coach and all time great player and he looks a lot better than he actually would be with PRESSURE on him night in and night out to perform


there were two players on the malone/stockton Jazz that I thought would be emerging players in their own rights

stockton's backup pg...eisly ...and dude last name anderson... they were average players at best

Good Call... Remember back in the day, i used to frequent many Lakers board, they were calling it the big 3(Kobe, Gasol and Ariza).

Some players shine under the right system.

[millwad]

Good Call... Remember back in the day, i used to frequent many Lakers board, they were calling it the big 3(Kobe, Gasol and Ariza).

Some players shine under the right system.

Haha, I still have nightmares after seeing Ariza playing for the Rockets. As a Rocket fan I was hyped to see Ariza join the team after seeing how he played for the Lakers but he it was a disaster for the Rockets in all honesty.

Not that Ariza was a bad player or that he played poorly, it was just that he didn't have it in him to be a go to guy.

[ProfessorMurder]

One of my favorite things about Kawhi is that he follows his shot more than almost any other NBA player right now.

[SCdac]

What Leonard is doing at his age, outside of three point shooting, he's probably better than 09 Ariza. Their post season runs are comparable and Kawhi had a better RS thant Trevor.

13 PPG | 9 RPG | 1 APG | 2 SPG | .54 FG% | 36 MPG

11 PPG | 4 RPG | 2 APG | 2 SPG | .50 FG% | 31 MPG

[millwad]

What Leonard is doing at his age, outside of three point shooting, he's probably better than 09 Ariza. Their post season runs are comparable and Kawhi had a better RS thant Trevor.

13 PPG | 9 RPG | 1 APG | 2 SPG | .54 FG% | 36 MPG

11 PPG | 4 RPG | 2 APG | 2 SPG | .50 FG% | 31 MPG

No one is saying that he's not better compared to Ariza.

What we're saying is that there are plenty of system players who fit in to a system very well but at the same time, that doesn't make him an instant star in the becoming and Kawhi obviously has alot more to prove.

[TheFan]

Haha, I still have nightmares after seeing Ariza playing for the Rockets. As a Rocket fan I was hyped to see Ariza join the team after seeing how he played for the Lakers but he it was a disaster for the Rockets in all honesty.

Not that Ariza was a bad player or that he played poorly, it was just that he didn't have it in him to be a go to guy.

yes, i remember they(rockets) wanted to make a to go guy out of him... but to go guy as in taking 20 shots per game.

[SCdac]

No one is saying that he's not better compared to Ariza.

What we're saying is that there are plenty of system players who fit in to a system very well but at the same time, that doesn't make him an instant star in the becoming and Kawhi obviously has alot more to prove.

I don't think anybody is calling him an All Star now or even tomorrow, but the majority of NBA players aren't stars in their second season/21 years old.

Gerald Wallace for instance didn't average 18 ppg till his 6th season/24 years old.
Shawn Marion didn't make an AS game till his 4th season/24 years old.
Richard Jefferson wasn't a 20+ PPG scorer till his 4th season/24 years old.

and so on and so on.

I agree he still has alot to prove, but I think anybody who's watching him is seeing him prove himself one step at a time, and in impressive fashion.

In one of the games without Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili this season Kawhi had an excellent game against the tough Bulls and it's going to be great watching him in the upcoming years.

26 PTS | 4 RBD | 1 BLK | 44 MINUTES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20

[SoCalLakersFan1]

I'd rather have Parsons since a third-rate playmaker on an average team is more important than all-nba level defender who is rebounding like an animal. :lol

[SCdac]

I'd rather have Parsons since a third-rate playmaker on an average team is more important than all-nba level defender who is rebounding like an animal. :lol

:oldlol:

But dude didn't you see that game in the first round where Parsons launched 10 threes?

that takes alot of strength!

[chips93]

Doesn't he have suspect knees? I foresee an early end to his career.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think his body is gonna give out.

really never heard that before, got a link?

[chips93]

Where does this misconception keep coming from?

Kawhi has decent handles, good shot, is quick, strong, athletic and has created shots for himself all season.

Not to mention he was basically a lottery pick and mock drafts had him going as high as #9, #10, #11, etc

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/901/240/Lenoard_original.gif

im sure you have watches more spurs games than me, but i have never seen any impressive ball handling from him, never creating for himself from isolation or pick and roll (and why would he he has tony parker for that), so i cant say with certaintly, that he cant create for himself, but ive never really seen it.

even the gif you have there, if im not mistaken, that was him attacking lebron off of a close out, not really creating for himself.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

From looking at his numbers when the Spurs' big 3 are sitting, it looks like he can create for himself but isn't great at creating for others yet, probably cuz the defense doesn't expect him to be able to score on his own and doesn't send as much as help.

[SCdac]

im sure you have watches more spurs games than me, but i have never seen any impressive ball handling from him, never creating for himself from isolation or pick and roll (and why would he he has tony parker for that), so i cant say with certaintly, that he cant create for himself, but ive never really seen it.

even the gif you have there, if im not mistaken, that was him attacking lebron off of a close out, not really creating for himself.

I don't think he's a gifted dribble, he's no AI or anything, but for his position he's sufficient. The Spurs don't call a ton of plays for him, but he's taken players off the dribble many times this season. He's got a quick first step.

behind the back on a fast break
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2306417/KawhiBehindTheBackSlam.gif

fast break in which he handles pressure well
http://i.minus.com/iwzLKSkZDLSyE.gif

In this clip vs. OKC you can see him faking Westbrook off the dribble at 0:21, faking Durant with a jab step at 0:29, at 0:55 he shows his post game/jumper against Thabo, at 1:06 he crosses over Durant and penetrates ... Full fledged isolations or not, he's not inept with the ball in his hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-x_ZwB3Bi8

[millwad]

I'd rather have Parsons since a third-rate playmaker on an average team is more important than all-nba level defender who is rebounding like an animal. :lol

Parsons is much more all-round, the guy can score, pass, rebound, handle the ball and create for himself and others.

Kawhi is not as good as Parsons yet.

[Dizzle-2k7]

the only thing similar between gerald wallace and kawhi are their bodies..

kawhi is tougher, MUCH MUCH smarter, much higher bball iq, less turnover prone, better passer, better shooter, more clutch, and just BETTER period.

[millwad]

I don't think anybody is calling him an All Star now or even tomorrow, but the majority of NBA players aren't stars in their second season/21 years old.

Gerald Wallace for instance didn't average 18 ppg till his 6th season/24 years old.
Shawn Marion didn't make an AS game till his 4th season/24 years old.
Richard Jefferson wasn't a 20+ PPG scorer till his 4th season/24 years old.

and so on and so on.

I agree he still has alot to prove, but I think anybody who's watching him is seeing him prove himself one step at a time, and in impressive fashion.

In one of the games without Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili this season Kawhi had an excellent game against the tough Bulls and it's going to be great watching him in the upcoming years.

26 PTS | 4 RBD | 1 BLK | 44 MINUTES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXemx5E9t20

Please, stop spamming about one game. Jeremy Lin put up 38 points against the Spurs this season, with Harden out, and he was mediocre at best this season. A one game sample means nada.

And Marion and Jefferson were with no doubt better at age 22 compared to Kawhi.

No one is saying that Kawhi doesn't have potential but you cherry pick games and hype him up like crazy, the guy's a role player.

Hell, even Danny Green this season alone has put up more 20 point games compared to what Kawhi has done in his whole career. Kawhi is very unproven on offense and a majority of his points are from wide open looks and he hasn't showed us anything really in terms of creating.


And yes, Kawhi is a really nice defender but playing with the Spurs is making his life easier as a defender considering how great they are on defense.

[Wonder Bread Kid]

i would say gerald wallace but he can't score like gerald used to. he can rebound and defend like gerald used to but his offense is much, much weaker than gerald's.

gerald had a season where he averaged 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg, 2.5 spg, and 2.1 bpg. talk about an all around perfect stat line. i don't know if kawhi can get to that all around game but maybe that could be his ceiling.

And if you were predicting Tony Parker ceiling when he was in his second year in the league and IN THE FINALS, you'd be saying he can't shoot, probably won't be in the league for very long, etc.

Tony was literally benched multiple times in the finals, in favor of Speedy Claxton, in his second year of play.

Don't write Kawhi's story after just one and a half seasons. :facepalm

[Clifton]

He will slowly get better and better for at least five seasons. He's got skills but there's definitely something raw about him. He looks to me like a player who, like Shane Battier, had to become a perimeter player in order to make it in the L. Unlike Shane Battier, he looks like he actually has the talent to be a very good one instead of just a marginal one who makes a living with defense.

I think his potential on offense is being overblown in this thread, but he can certainly grow into an important cog for SA's future, and takes a lot of the sting out of Duncan's aging. With Splitter and Kawhi (and Diaw, who I believe is such an underrated player), they'll be competitive for at least 3 or 4 more years.

And his defense and rebounding are just awesome. I don't think he's as good as George now, and I don't think he has George's level of talent, but he's close. And his hands are huge and his arms are unbelievably long. Makes him a Durant/Lebron stopper, which you need right now to be a title threat if you don't have one of the two players.

[Dizzle-2k7]

And Marion and Jefferson were with no doubt better at age 22 compared to Kawhi.
And yes, Kawhi is a really nice defender but playing with the Spurs is making his life easier as a defender considering how great they are on defense.

you havent watched more than 5 spurs games all season im betting. Kawhi Leonard is an ALL WORLD defender.. marion and jefferson have never been the defender Kawhi is.. throw in the fact Kawhi is already a better shooter than both of those dudes.. much better rebounder (miles better).. and his bball IQ is through the roof (doesnt make bad decisions)..

geewiz did you really bring richard jefferson into this convo? hes one of the biggest reasons the spurs sucked between 09-11 :oldlol:

[SCdac]

Please, stop spamming about one game. Jeremy Lin put up 38 points against the Spurs this season, with Harden out, and he was mediocre at best this season. A one game sample means nada.

And Marion and Jefferson were with no doubt better at age 22 compared to Kawhi.

No one is saying that Kawhi doesn't have potential but you cherry pick games and hype him up like crazy, the guy's a role player.

Hell, even Danny Green this season alone has put up more 20 point games compared to what Kawhi has done in his whole career. Kawhi is very unproven on offense and a majority of his points are from wide open looks and he hasn't showed us anything really in terms of creating.

And yes, Kawhi is a really nice defender but playing with the Spurs is making his life easier as a defender considering how great they are on defense.

Dude, could you be any more bitter that Kawhi is showing off his game? :oldlol:

You know, you don't have to resent Kawhi because of one "Parsons vs. Kawhi" thread... :rolleyes:

[imdaman99]

i already said his ceiling is a rich mans luol deng. right now and going forward, id already take leonard over deng easily. and deng made the all star game. he wont be a star, but a lot better than a role player. role players are called role players because they are not consistent like the stars of the team are. lets go leonard, dont let up. suffocate the chosen one :rockon:

[SCdac]

you havent watched more than 5 spurs games all season im betting. Kawhi Leonard is an ALL WORLD defender.. marion and jefferson have never been the defender Kawhi is.. throw in the fact Kawhi is already a better shooter than both of those dudes.. much better rebounder (miles better).. and his bball IQ is through the roof (doesnt make bad decisions)..

geewiz did you really bring richard jefferson into this convo? hes one of the biggest reasons the spurs sucked between 09-11 :oldlol:

I brought up Richard Jefferson, because I think he's relevant in a couple ways:

1) he didn't get really get going till about his 3rd or 4th season, and I think Kawhi will continue to improve like him and most players.

2) I initially thought Kawhi would be like him offensively (ie. similar numbers), but Leonard is a much more well rounded player (defense, etc) and now I see him as more Marion-esque who can effect the outcomes of games with or without scoring.

[millwad]

you havent watched more than 5 spurs games all season im betting. Kawhi Leonard is an ALL WORLD defender.. marion and jefferson have never been the defender Kawhi is.. throw in the fact Kawhi is already a better shooter than both of those dudes.. much better rebounder (miles better).. and his bball IQ is through the roof (doesnt make bad decisions)..

geewiz did you really bring richard jefferson into this convo? hes one of the biggest reasons the spurs sucked between 09-11 :oldlol:

False, I've seen more than 5 Spurs games this season.

And don't be stupid, I'm not talking about old and busted up Jefferson. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who was the third option on offense for that Nets team that made it to the finals in '03 at the same age as Kawhi. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who averaged;

15.5 points (50% shooting), 6.4 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 1 steal per game that season

Marion at the same age was the leading scorer for the Suns and averaged;

17.3 points (48% shooting), 10.7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game.

You're obviously clueless, you even claim that Kawhi is miles better when it comes to rebounding at his age but Marion averaged 10.7 rebounds per 36 minutes compared to Kawhi's 6.9 rebounds..

Don't be stupid.

[millwad]

Dude, could you be any more bitter that Kawhi is showing off his game? :oldlol:

You know, you don't have to resent Kawhi because of one "Parsons vs. Kawhi" thread... :rolleyes:

I'm just replying to obvious stupidity like the person above who claimed that Kawhi is miles better compared to Marion in terms of rebounding when it's the other way around.

You're obviously the one who's butthurt considering the fact that you're bringing up Parsons time after time in a thread about Kawhi. And yes, Parsons is obviously better.

[SCdac]

False, I've seen more than 5 Spurs games this season.

And don't be stupid, I'm not talking about old and busted up Jefferson. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who was the third option on offense for that Nets team that made it to the finals in '03 at the same age as Kawhi. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who averaged;

15.5 points (50% shooting), 6.4 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 1 steal per game that season

Marion at the same age was the leading scorer for the Suns and averaged;

17.3 points (48% shooting), 10.7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game.

You're obviously clueless, you even claim that Kawhi is miles better when it comes to rebounding at his age but Marion averaged 10.7 rebounds per 36 minutes compared to Kawhi's 6.9 rebounds..

Don't be stupid.

Kawhi is 21, not 22...

Both RJ and Marion were rookies at 21.

And didn't both RJ's and Marion's numbers go down in the playoffs? ... Leonard is doing the opposite.

[Dizzle-2k7]

False, I've seen more than 5 Spurs games this season.

And don't be stupid, I'm not talking about old and busted up Jefferson. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who was the third option on offense for that Nets team that made it to the finals in '03 at the same age as Kawhi. I'm talking about the same Jefferson who averaged;

15.5 points (50% shooting), 6.4 rebounds, 2.5 assists and 1 steal per game that season

Marion at the same age was the leading scorer for the Suns and averaged;

17.3 points (48% shooting), 10.7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1.7 steals and 1.4 blocks per game.

You're obviously clueless, you even claim that Kawhi is miles better when it comes to rebounding at his age but Marion averaged 10.7 rebounds per 36 minutes compared to Kawhi's 6.9 rebounds..

Don't be stupid.

:oldlol: RJ had those averages because he played with a Prime Jason Kidd who decimated the entire eastern conference that year.. howd RJ do without Kidd?

as for Marion.. he averaged 10 boards playing with Amare (LOL he doesnt rebound) and the suns never had a decent center..also played one of the most uptempo systems of all time (shoot in 7 seconds)

Kawhi is an INCREDIBLE REBOUNDER while playing in a half court system with 2 7 footers

youza scrub.

[millwad]

:oldlol: RJ had those averages because he played with a Prime Jason Kidd who decimated the entire eastern conference that year.. howd RJ do without Kidd?

as for Marion.. he averaged 10 boards playing with Amare (LOL he doesnt rebound) and the suns never had a decent center..

Kawhi is an INCREDIBLE REBOUNDER while playing with 2 7 footers

youza scrub.

Oh, so lets act like Kawhi's scoring average is not due playing with TD, Duncan and Manu and lets act like a majority of his points aren't from open looks. Don't be stupid.

Marion averaged 10.7 rebounds, that's 3.8 rebounds more per 36 minutes compared to Kawhi's rebounding average. It's a joke to claim that Kawhi's miles better in terms of rebounding when he's getting outrebounded big time.

And whine about Kawhi playing with Splitter and Duncan but if you'd know basketball you would agree to the fact that Marion had to play both offense and defense while Kawhi's basically waiting for open looks on offense. It's called energy level and for Marion both had to score and defend, Marion would easily gain alot in terms of rebounding if he'd have Kawhi's offensive role.

[It's A VC3!!!]

the only thing similar between gerald wallace and kawhi are their bodies..

kawhi is tougher, MUCH MUCH smarter, much higher bball iq, less turnover prone, better passer, better shooter, more clutch, and just BETTER period.
ISH, retard alert, retard alert. Dude, stop posting. I hate when people comment on players they have never actually watched.:facepalm

[SCdac]

as for Marion.. he averaged 10 boards playing with Amare (LOL he doesnt rebound) and the suns never had a decent center..also played one of the most uptempo systems of all time (shoot in 7 seconds)

While I think Marion is an excellent rebounder (he's a PF/SF hybrid), Amare wasn't even on the team yet.

Jason Kidd
Shawn Marion
Clifford Robinson (34)
Penny Hardaway (played 4 games)
Tony Delk
Rodney Rogers
Tom Gugliotta
Mario Ellie
etc.

Could definitely see Kawhi putting up bigger numbers on a team like that. More freedom. More running.... Marion averaged .37 FG% come the playoffs... Nothing to write home about.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Marion averaged 10.7 rebounds, that's 3.8 rebounds more per 36 minutes compared to Kawhi's rebounding average. It's a joke to claim that Kawhi's miles better in terms of rebounding when he's getting outrebounded big time.

How you gonna act like playing with no centers, playing with amare, and playing in one of the most uptempo systems of all time (shoot every 7 seconds) doesnt help his rebounding averages?

[millwad]

While I think Marion is an excellent rebounder (he's a PF/SF hybrid), Amare wasn't even on the team yet.

Jason Kidd
Shawn Marion
Clifford Robinson (34)
Penny Hardaway (played 4 games)
Tony Delk
Rodney Rogers
Tom Gugliotta
Mario Ellie
etc.

Could definitely see Kawhi putting up bigger numbers on a team like that. More freedom. More running.... Marion averaged .37 FG% come the playoffs... Nothing to write home about.

Yet another retarded reply.

Who gets more attention by the defense, Kawhi who's the 4th option and who only scored 20 points or more 6 times in his whole career or Marion who played on a bad team as the leading scorer.

A majority of Kawhi's points come from wide open looks.

[Dizzle-2k7]

A majority of Kawhi's points come from wide open looks.

wrong. putbacks and hustle plays (steals, rebounds, etc) are how kawhi gets his points.

however when given the chance to create he's really good . he just doesnt get alot of opportunities. like i said, you dont watch much if you think chandler parsons is better :oldlol:

[SCdac]

Yet another retarded reply.

Who gets more attention by the defense, Kawhi who's the 4th option and who only scored 20 points or more 6 times in his whole career or Marion who played on a bad team as the leading scorer.

A majority of Kawhi's points come from wide open looks.

The Suns leading scorer scored 17 PPG that season... That's not jaw dropping... Not to mention Marion got worse in the playoffs.

Marion - 17.3 ppg
Kidd ---- 16.9 ppg
Cliff ---- 16.4 ppg

Playoffs

Cliff ---- 15.0 ppg
Marion - 14.8 ppg
Kidd --- 14.3 ppg

Not that impressive.

You keep saying that about "open looks"... you're exposing yourself as a hater or somebody who didn't watch the Spurs. Or both maybe?

Keep in mind, Kawhi was 3rd in scoring this season both RS and playoffs.

A player is not judged by how many 20 point games they've had.

[millwad]

How you gonna act like playing with no centers, playing with amare, and playing in one of the most uptempo systems of all time (shoot every 7 seconds) doesnt help his rebounding averages?

You fail yet again, '01 Suns scored an average of 94 points per game compared to '13 Spurs 103 points per game.

The Suns were 17th in terms of scoring per game average while the Spurs were 4th this season.

And the Spurs also averaged more than 200 field goal attempts more this season compared to the '01 Suns. Spurs are playing a more uptempo game compared to what Marion's team did.

It's a joke that you claimed that Kawhi is miles better in terms of rebounding when Marion was both averaging way more rebounds per game while playing at a slower pace.

[millwad]

The Suns leading scorer scored 17 PPG that season... That's not jaw dropping... Not to mention Marion got worse in the playoffs.

Marion - 17.3 ppg
Kidd ---- 16.9 ppg
Cliff ---- 16.4 ppg

Playoffs

Cliff ---- 15.0 ppg
Marion - 14.8 ppg
Kidd --- 14.3 ppg

Not that impressive.

You keep saying that about "open looks"... you're exposing yourself as a hater or somebody who didn't watch the Spurs. Or both maybe?

Keep in mind, Kawhi was 3rd in scoring this season both RS and playoffs.

A player is not judged by how many 20 point games they've had.

Marion was a top priority for the opposing team in terms of offense, Kawhi's no where close to being that.

Kawhi is switching between being a 3rd to 5th option on offense and yes, he is getting a lot of open looks and if you want to deny it, then you're just delusional.

It's pure stupidity to talk about FG% when it comes to a role player who mainly scores on open looks compared to a player who has to lead his team on offense and face the top defenders and all the main defensive focus.

[SCdac]

Marion was a top priority for the opposing team in terms of offense, Kawhi's no where close to being that.

I agree their situations are different.

So I'm assuming you think Leonard's numbers will crumble apart once TD, Parker, and Ginobili retire and stop "gifting him opportunities"? You think he'll be exposed or what?

I can only see his scoring and overall game rising in the future, considering his work ethic, potential, and skill set.

Can definitely see him averaging 17 ppg on 15 shots a game like Marion has, or Deng, or so many others.

But then again, I've watched Leonard alot, and he's definitely not spoonfed points over and over. He works as hard as any player.

[millwad]

I agree their situations are different.

So I'm assuming you think Leonard's numbers will crumble apart once TD, Parker, and Ginobili retire and stop "gifting him opportunities"? You think he'll be exposed or what?

I can only see his scoring and overall game rising in the future, considering his work ethic, potential, and skill set.

Can definitely see him averaging 17 ppg on 15 shots a game like Marion has, or Deng, or so many others.

But then again, I've watched Leonard alot, and he's definitely not spoonfed points over and over. He works as hard as any player.


I really don't think Leonard's numbers will crumble but there's a very big difference from being a role player to the man, or even to be a legit 2nd option.

Kawhi is obviously nothing but great when it comes to defense, his rebounding is elite already and he got a special feel for rebounding and it's not just him being athletic, he got true rebounding skills and IQ.

Regarding offense, I guess he'll be exposed for some while. There's a great transition from being a role player who mainly scores on open looks compared to being a player who has to create for himself and for others.

This far we haven't really seen anything in terms of creating from Kawhi, his assist numbers are very low and Kawhi creating for himself is also not a common view. We'll have to see how he responds later on in his career, he got plenty of potenital but he has alot of work in front of him to become what you guys seem to believe he'll be. He's very raw offensively.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Leonard has a decent post game from what I have seen in the playoffs. The Spurs used it a bit in the Warriors series in the games I watched.

[SCdac]

I really don't think Leonard's numbers will crumble but there's a very big difference from being a role player to the man, or even to be a legit 2nd option.

Kawhi is obviously nothing but great when it comes to defense, his rebounding is elite already and he got a special feel for rebounding and it's not just him being athletic, he got true rebounding skills and IQ.

Regarding offense, I guess he'll be exposed for some while. There's a great transition from being a role player who mainly scores on open looks compared to being a player who has to create for himself and for others.

This far we haven't really seen anything in terms of creating from Kawhi, his assist numbers are very low and Kawhi creating for himself is also not a common view. We'll have to see how he responds later on in his career, he got plenty of potenital but he has alot of work in front of him to become what you guys seem to believe he'll be. He's very raw offensively.

Well, he's doing a damn good job for being raw :applause:

Round 1: 12 ppg | 7 rpg | 2 spg | .55 FG% | 34 mpg
Round 2: 15 ppg | 9 rpg | 2 spg | .56 FG% | 40 mpg -- guarded Curry well
Round 3: 11 ppg | 7 rpg | 2 spg | .59 FG% | 36 mpg
Round 4: 12 ppg | 12 rpg | 2 spg | .42 FG% | 33 mpg --- guarding Lebron well

If that's raw, I can't wait to see him in 3-4 years, regardless of who his teammates are.

You keep harping on his assist numbers which makes me think you're not watching him but rather watching box scores if you actually consider that a fault. For his position, it's hardly a necessity nor is it hurting his game.

[millwad]

Well, he's doing a damn good job for being raw :applause:

Round 1: 12 ppg | 7 rpg | 2 spg | .55 FG% | 34 mpg
Round 2: 15 ppg | 9 rpg | 2 spg | .56 FG% | 40 mpg -- guarded Curry well
Round 3: 11 ppg | 7 rpg | 2 spg | .59 FG% | 36 mpg
Round 4: 12 ppg | 12 rpg | 2 spg | .42 FG% | 33 mpg --- guarding Lebron well

If that's raw, I can't wait to see him in 3-4 years, regardless of who his teammates are.

You keep harping on his assist numbers which makes me think you're not watching him but rather watching box scores if you actually consider that a fault. For his position, it's hardly a necessity nor is it hurting his game.

He is raw on offense, he's not creating for himself and you claim you watch the games, why do you deny the great amount of open looks he gets?

Birdman shoots with a damn high FG% as well, a high FG% doesn't everytime translate in great offensive skillset. And yes, his assist numbers are actually a sad view.

For a guy who's supposedly going to take over the scoring in the near future according to you Spur fans, he really has not showed us anything in terms of playmaking and creating.

He played the 4th most minutes for the Spurs this season, yet he only managed to be 9th best in terms of total asssists for the Spurs.

And per 36 minutes he's 14th for the Spurs in assists per game. It's just showcasing the fact that he's totally unproven and this far very poor in terms of playmaking.

A player who can't create for himself or others is a raw offensive player.

[SCdac]

Birdman shoots with a damn high FG% as well, a high FG% doesn't everytime translate in great offensive skillset. And yes, his assist numbers are actually a sad view.

Did you just compare 15 mpg Birdman to Kawhi Leonard? ... Wow, you are dense.

Criticizing Kawhi for not getting enough assists (according to you) is like criticizing Luis Scola for not making enough three pointers :facepalm

[tpols]

Leanoard has a better chance at becoming a true offensive threat and creator than Marion.

Marion is antawn jamison 2.0.. He scores on broken plays, in semi transition, and off rebounds with quick unorthodox runners and bankers.. Can finish around the rim and can shoot the occasional long range shot with that awkward release.

As mediocre as kawhis handles are he still has a normal dribbling motion and a much better shooting form. His game is more skill based while Marion was all hustle and athleticism.

Marion was never a creator of offense.. Always a finisher off others work or by being in the right spot at the right time. Don't know what millwad is talking about but it's bs.

[millwad]

Did you just compare 15 mpg Birdman to Kawhi Leonard? ... Wow, you are dense.

Criticizing Kawhi for not getting enough assists (according to you) is like criticizing Luis Scola for not making enough three pointers :facepalm

Birdman was an example, I didn't compare Birdman to Kawhi.

And no, critizing Kawhi for being one of the worst starters at his position in terms of assists per game is a legit point. It means that we're dealing with a SF who doesn't create for himself or others.

You Spurs fans are talking about him as a future go-to-guy, yet you get butthurt over the fact that your future go-to-guy barely creates for himself and for others. If that's not an issue in you eyes, then you're just too delusional.

[millwad]

Leanoard has a better chance at becoming a true offensive threat and creator than Marion.

Marion is antawn jamison 2.0.. He scores on broken plays, in semi transition, and off rebounds with quick unorthodox runners and bankers.. Can finish around the rim and can shoot the occasional long range shot with that awkward release.

As mediocre as kawhis handles are he still has a normal dribbling motion and a much better shooting form. His game is more skill based while Marion was all hustle and athleticism.

Marion was never a creator of offense.. Always a finisher off others work or by being in the right spot at the right time. Don't know what millwad is talking about but it's bs.


I'm replying with actual facts and reflecting over stats, you guys are just ranting about your own beliefs.

How is Kawhi such a massive threat? A majority of his points comes from open looks and he hasn't proved at all this far in his career that he can create for himself and for others. You talk about Marion not being a creator, welcome to Kawhi's reality as one of the worst in terms of assists per game at his position.

Marion scored 19 points or more 5 seasons in his career, Kawhi has alot to live up to..

[tpols]

I'm replying with actual facts and reflecting over stats, you guys are just ranting about your own beliefs.

How is Kawhi such a massive threat? A majority of his points comes from open looks and he hasn't proved at all this far in his career that he can create for himself and for others. You talk about Marion not being a creator, welcome to Kawhi's reality as one of the worst in terms of assists per game at his position.

Marion scored 19 points or more 5 seasons in his career, Kawhi has alot to live up to..
You're using assists per game to judge a guy who is mainly a three point shooter and finisher in a Spurs offense predicated on ball movement and who have a few great playmaker already.. They're not going to iso their young guys over Parker and Manu who have been running the show for over a decade. They have to ease into the system by proving they're willing to do the dirty work first.

Marion was never a guy you thought about shutting down because his offense is extremely unpredictable and not direct.. There's no gameplan to stop him from getting 20 besides out hustling him. Kawhi has better skills and if he develops under pop more and more, by the time Manu and Parker are ready to retire he will be ready to be their replacement.. Who knows if pop will stick around that long but if he does why wouldn't kawhi have a shot at being better than Marion? Marion was more stats than impact anyways.

[SyRyanYang]

You guys must forgot how good Marion was offensively. Not just off the ball, but he can also create his own shot, effectively with that deadly floater.
I don't think Leonard will ever be as good offensively, so calling Marion his ceiling is fair enough.

[hitmanyr2k]

You guys must forgot how good Marion was offensively. Not just off the ball, but he can also create his own shot, effectively with that deadly floater.
I don't think Leonard will ever be as good offensively, so calling Marion his ceiling is fair enough.

Marion was never really "good" offensively. He's what I call the ultimate garbageman in the way that he scored on hustle plays, offensive put-backs, running hard on the break for easy buckets. He rarely created his own shot because he was very average at doing it...and also probably because of that horrible form on his shot release. He did have a nice floater every once in awhile off the dribble but nothing consistent. As far as one on one offensive skills go I think Leonard is already as good as Marion.