Kobe is ahead of Bird on the GOAT list

[Electric Slide]

Discuss.

[PickernRoller]

True, no disrespect to Bird, a great in his own and different player too. Hard to compare thou....just different players, same as Kobe and Magic.

[Derivative]

OP is a ******, discuss.

[PickernRoller]

OP is a ******, discuss.

Not more than you, discuss:

[K Xerxes]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Yeah, no.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I always laugh when someone says on THE list, as if there's just one universal list.

[LAZERUSS]

Overall careers...and yes, Kobe has the greater resume.

[Crafty]

No. God no

[tikay0]

:facepalm

[colts19]

I like Kobe as a player, but he is not better than Legend. People need to remember that Larry was in the discussion for Goat at one time before injuries. As good as Kobe is, he is not even the greatest laker. Behind in no order. Magic, Kareem, Wilt.

Ask yourself if you were starting a team and could only pick one great player to lead it who would it be.

[LAZERUSS]

I like Kobe as a player, but he is not better than Legend. People need to remember that Larry was in the discussion for Goat at one time before injuries. As good as Kobe is, he is not even the greatest laker. Behind in no order. Magic, Kareem, Wilt.

Ask yourself if you were starting a team and could only pick one great player to lead it who would it be.

Agreed. Although, while Kobe has generally shrunk in his Finals, his post-seasons, overall, have probably been better than Bird's. Once again, if you look at their entire resumes, Kobe really has a strong argument. Bird, at his peak, was better (but he was never the pure scorer that Kobe was), but overall, and including Kobe's longevity and accolades, and I give Kobe a slight edge.

[Psycho]

It's close, but Bird's PER 23.5 > Kobe's PER 23.4
so, objectively, Bird is greater than Kobe.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Only true if you actually look at which each accomplished in the sport, not true if you give bonus points to Larry Bird for matching your skin tone.

[Sakkreth]

Bird is top5, is Kobe top 10 ? No.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird is top5, is Kobe top 10 ? No.

Bird has no case over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, KAJ, Duncan, or Shaq.

And it is just a matter of time before LeBron will jump him.

[K Xerxes]

Bird has no case over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, KAJ, Duncan, or Shaq.

Uh, what? He has a case over all of them, except KAJ in my opinion. I have him above Magic, Duncan and Shaq.

[Legends66NBA7]

It's close between them.


Uh, what? He has a case over all of them, except KAJ in my opinion. I have him above Magic, Duncan and Shaq.

Interesting. What's the case in your view for Bird over Jordan ?

[alexd]

Bird -> unathletic but dominating figure.he couldn t run couldn t jump but he went anywhere he wanted did everything he wanted. he was never carried to champions.was always the man.how can u tell that kobe is purest scorer?his moves are more polished because of the way basketball has developed.bird was unstopable.he inspired a whole generation.unlike kobe he did everything to win.didn t care about chunking shots like kobe.at one game even bird s opponents where high five eachother because of his performance during the game

[LAZERUSS]

Uh, what? He has a case over all of them, except KAJ in my opinion. I have him above Magic, Duncan and Shaq.

Magic had the better overall career, just as many MVPs, more FMVPs, more Finals, more rings, better h2h (particularly in the post-season), and a better post-season performer.

Chamberlain carried putrid rosters to within an eyelash of beating the Celtic Dynasty several times, and destroyed them with anm equal roster. Anchored two of the greatest teams of all-time. Won more MVPs (and should have won at least two more.) Would have the same number of FMVPs had the award existed in '67. Was a much more dominant player in both the regular season and post-season. Was a better score, rebounder, much more efficient shooter, was nearly an equal at passing (amazing for a center BTW), a much better defender and shot-blocker, and more "clutch" in the post-season, too.
And in terms of records....well, no one is within light-years of equalling what Chamberlain accomplished.

Shaq was simply a more dominant player at his peak...which was longer than Bird's BTW. And more rings and FMVPs, too. At his peak Shaq was clearly the best player in the league. Bird was never really head-and-shoulders above Magic, Moses, or MJ.

Duncan's overall resume is just considerably better.

And Russell's 11 rings, and probably 8-9 FMVPs, as well as five MVPs are all considerably better than Bird's accolades.

[The-Legend-24]

He's had the better career, so..

[IllegalD]

How comes nobody EVER discusses the fact that on Bird's first championship the Finals MVP was Cedric "Cornbred" Maxwell with averages of 18 and 10, outplaying a struggling Bird?

Shouldn't that be used against Bird, the same way that people use the fact that Kobe wasn't Finals MVP for his first 3 rings against him?

:confusedshrug:

Imagine the reactions on this board if Kobe won a chip and lost out the Finals MVP to a guy with the nickname "Cornbred"

:lol

Not to mention that Bird's defense was OK at best. (I believe one time he made an all NBA 2nd or 3rd defensive team). As overrated as Kobe's defense might be to some of you, and perhaps some of his later all-defensive first team selections were due to reputation, prime Kobe's defense is still ELITE and way better than Bird's ever was. The game is played on both sides of the court, gentlemen.

[gengiskhan]

Discuss.

Epic FAIL thread in the making.

Bird Top 5 GOATs.

Kobe Top 15 all-timer.

Bird 3 back-2-back-2-back MVPs (never been done before)
Bird 2 legit FMVPs.
Bird ROTY
Bird NCAA legacy (finalist)
Bird is GOAT.

Kobe aint even close.

GTFO

/thread.

[LAZERUSS]

Epic FAIL thread in the making.

Bird Top 5 GOATs.

Kobe Top 15 all-timer.

Bird 3 back-2-back-2-back MVPs (never been done before)
Bird 2 legit FMVPs.
Bird ROTY
Bird NCAA legacy (finalist)
Bird is GOAT.

Kobe aint even close.

GTFO

/thread.

Chamberlain won three straight MVPs in the 60's, and was much dominant in all of those seasons than Bird was in his.

[gengiskhan]

Bird transformed the game forever.

modern day SF position is shaped & played in the form of Bird.

LBJ is still catching up to Bird to become a perfect SF. still far away.

Bird has GOAT status (1-6).


Kobe is the league of Moses, Dr J, Duncan (12-15)

[gengiskhan]

Chamberlain won three straight MVPs in the 60's, and was much dominant in all of those seasons than Bird was in his.

Bird transformed the game.
Bird has FMVP sweep.

& whats the point of arguing Bird vs Wilt.

Both are LEGIT GOATs.

Its GOAT Bird vs non-GOAT kobe.

Bird is Top 5-6.

Kobe is Top 12 @ the very best.

[Rekindled]

Bird has no case over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, KAJ, Duncan, or Shaq.

And it is just a matter of time before LeBron will jump him.

you have no case over not being a total dumbass

[AirFederer]

Chamberlain won three straight MVPs in the 60's, and was much dominant in all of those seasons than Bird was in his.

What has Wilt to do with OP`s question :confusedshrug:

Imho Bird is clearly better than Kobe. Best closer ever, together with MJ.
OT: Has anyone ever made a statistic of Bird`s game winners/misses, compard to, say MJ?

[Living Being]

I always laugh when someone says on THE list, as if there's just one universal list.
Yeah, that list etched in stone on the wall of the Bball Hall of Fame.

[Living Being]

Bird made Magic have a LeChoke James performance in the NBA Finals. Kobe has never affected another player's career like that.

[Ca$H]

Agreed. Although, while Kobe has generally shrunk in his Finals, his post-seasons, overall, have probably been better than Bird's. Once again, if you look at their entire resumes, Kobe really has a strong argument. Bird, at his peak, was better (but he was never the pure scorer that Kobe was), but overall, and including Kobe's longevity and accolades, and I give Kobe a slight edge.

:applause: You truly understand how to rank players. I don't know why people always disregard longevity/accolades/resume. It is just as important as peak play.

[Living Being]

:applause: You truly understand how to rank players. It don't know why people always disregard longevity/accolades/resume. It is just as important as peak play.
:applause: You truly know how to take the cawk.

[Ca$H]

:applause: I truly know how to take the cawk in my backdoor.

:biggums:

[CAstill]

Kobe is better than Bird. Bird didn't really have the chance to complete his career.

[gengiskhan]

Bird made Magic have a LeChoke James performance in the NBA Finals. Kobe has never affected another player's career like that.

&

Magic was given BETTER team.
Magic was 4 yrs younger than Bird.

Bird easily wins his 4th ring if he did not faced LAL in 1985 finals.

It needed peak prime Magic & LAL with KAJ & worthy & excellent support & bench to stop Bird from winning 4th ring.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe is better than Bird. Bird didn't really have the chance to complete his career.

FACT: 1992 was the year of Bird's retirement.

FACT: The last game of Bird's career, he was 35 y.o.

FACT: Bird played pro btw 23-35 yrs.

FACT: Bird's back didn't really held up good with aging process.

FACT: Bird is still SUPERIOR to Kobe.

live with it.

or

suicide is an excellent option. :coleman:

[pauk]

3 championships as the man + 3 mvps... More dominant player... Overall more productive player... Doesnt mean its not close or something, but Kobe should definitely not be ahead... Kobe had great longevity, is one of the best scorers of all time, but at the end of the day his most significant accomplishments are the 2 championships as THE MAN and that 1 mvp.... the 3 first championships he had are not meaningless, but they are far less significant in terms of context when used as a case for a top 10 player ... Kobe would be in my top 10 even without those 3 championships.... its not those that got him in my top 10, its those last 2 championships and simply his level of play over the course of his career, i mean he sure is the most talented/skilled SG ive seen after Jordan....

[KG215]

Kobe is better than Bird. Bird didn't really have the chance to complete his career.
Bird, at his best, was better than Kobe at his best. Kobe's got him beat in longevity but Bird's peak was higher.

[kennethgriffin]

i'm sorry but when you think of the best of their generation

you think of

60's - russell ( 11 rings )
70's - kareem ( 6 rings )
80's - magic ( 5 rings )
90's - jordan ( 6 rings )
00's - Kobe ( 5 rings )


when you think of the 2nd best of their generation. you notice a huge drop off of career accomplishments

60's - wilt ( 2 rings )
70's - Frazier ( 2 rings )
80's - Bird ( 3 rings )
90's - hakeem ( 2 rings )
00's - duncan ( 4 rings



its just not the same


kobe took control of a generation. bird will always be the runner up of his time

[longtime lurker]

Kobe and Bird are generally 6 and 7 on the all time list, so it's not crazy to think that Kobe could be considered better than Bird.

[CAstill]

Bird, at his best, was better than Kobe at his best. Kobe's got him beat in longevity but Bird's peak was higher.

I don't agree. Kobe was a better peak offensive and defensive player.

[KG215]

i'm sorry but when you think of the best of their generation

you think of

60's - russell ( 11 rings )
70's - kareem ( 6 rings )
80's - magic ( 5 rings )
90's - jordan ( 6 rings )
00's - Kobe ( 5 rings )


when you think of the 2nd best of their generation. you notice a huge drop off of career accomplishments

60's - wilt ( 2 rings )
70's - Frazier ( 2 rings )
80's - Bird ( 3 rings )
90's - hakeem ( 2 rings )
00's - duncan ( 4 rings



its just not the same


kobe took control of a generation. bird will always be the runner up of his time
:confusedshrug:

No, you think Kobe of this generation, because you're in love with him, and he's the most popular from this decade. It doesn't mean he was the best. You like to pass off your own opinions backed with weak, subjective facts, and pass it off as what everyone else here thinks.

[KG215]

I don't agree. Kobe was a better peak offensive and defensive player.
Wrong. There's more to offense than scoring. And even if there wasn't, Bird at his peak was averaging damn near 30 PPG on much better efficiency than Kobe. I can give the nod to Kobe defensively, but Bird was better offensively, and there's more to it than just offense and defense.

I'm not getting into this argument with you again, though, because you've already said in the past that you think the only player that had a higher peak than Kobe was Jordan. So going down this road with you when it involves Kobe is pointless.

[CAstill]

Wrong. There's more to offense than scoring. And even if there wasn't, Bird at his peak was averaging damn near 30 PPG on much better efficiency than Kobe. I can give the nod to Kobe defensively, but Bird was better offensively, and there's more to it than just offense and defense.

I'm not getting into this argument with you again, though, because you've already said you think Kobe has the second highest peak of all-time, which is absurd.


There is more to offense than scoring like running an offense and facilitating it to 3 straight championships. I realize that Kobe had Shaq but Bird had an even more stacked team. He also did it for another 3 consecutive finals appearances so I see no reason to not give Kobe the nod on playmaking. Efficiency Bird got it. Overall I have Kobe above peak bird on offense. We know Kobe can outgun Bird too.

[LAZERUSS]

i'm sorry but when you think of the best of their generation

you think of

60's - russell ( 11 rings )
70's - kareem ( 6 rings )
80's - magic ( 5 rings )
90's - jordan ( 6 rings )
00's - Kobe ( 5 rings )


when you think of the 2nd best of their generation. you notice a huge drop off of career accomplishments

60's - wilt ( 2 rings )
70's - Frazier ( 2 rings )
80's - Bird ( 3 rings )
90's - hakeem ( 2 rings )
00's - duncan ( 4 rings



its just not the same


kobe took control of a generation. bird will always be the runner up of his time

Hmmm...In the 60's, Wilt won as many MVPs as Russell, and arguably should have won two more ('62 and '64), and held a 7-2 edge in all-NBA first team selections. And by the mid-60's Chamberlain was winning landslide MVPs.

Not sure who was ranking Russell ahead of Wilt at the time, because I sure don't see any evidence of it.

[kennethgriffin]

:confusedshrug:

No, you think Kobe of this generation, because you're in love with him, and he's the most popular from this decade. It doesn't mean he was the best. You like to pass off your own opinions backed with weak, subjective facts, and pass it off as what everyone else here thinks.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/tre_zps73b7d1c0.png (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/cashforcards/media/tre_zps73b7d1c0.png.html)

na i think it has more to do with factual nominations

[TheMarkMadsen]

If you weren't born before before 1970 or earlier how can you honestly discuss Bird? That would put you at like 10 for his earliest years so you'd have a chance to witness his prime as a teen/adult.

I'm not going to compare a player who I never saw play to a guy who's entire career I've watched..

[LAZERUSS]

Bird made Magic have a LeChoke James performance in the NBA Finals. Kobe has never affected another player's career like that.

Yep...all "Tragic" could do in that series was average 18 ppg, lead his team in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, hand out 13 apg, and shoot .560 from the field. What a disgrace.

BTW, care to compare Bird and Magic in their '85, and particularly their '87 Finals?

And how about Magic in the '80 and '82 post-season? And let's compare Magic's and Bird's performance against the Pistons in the '88 post-season. And how about their careers after that?

[Champ]

There is more to offense than scoring like running an offense and facilitating it to 3 straight championships. I realize that Kobe had Shaq but Bird had an even more stacked team. He also did it for another 3 consecutive finals appearances so I see no reason to not give Kobe the nod on playmaking. Efficiency Bird got it. Overall I have Kobe above peak bird on offense. We know Kobe can outgun Bird too.

I'm curious to hear why you feel Kobe is a better playmaker than Bird.

This should be interesting...

[Living Being]

Yep...all "Tragic" could do in that series was average 18 ppg, lead his team in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, hand out 13 apg, and shoot .560 from the field. What a disgrace.

BTW, care to compare Bird and Magic in their '85, and particularly their '87 Finals?

And how about Magic in the '80 and '82 post-season? And let's compare Magic's and Bird's performance against the Pistons in the '88 post-season. And how about their careers after that?
Nice stats, just like LeBron. He choked, though.

This is about Bird over Kobe, not Magic, you troll. All I stated was an accomplishment of Bird's. You can't take that away from him. I didn't make any statements about Magic's overall career.

[Living Being]

i'm sorry but when you think of the best of their generation

you think of

60's - russell ( 11 rings )
70's - kareem ( 6 rings )
80's - magic ( 5 rings )
90's - jordan ( 6 rings )
00's - Kobe ( 5 rings )


when you think of the 2nd best of their generation. you notice a huge drop off of career accomplishments

60's - wilt ( 2 rings )
70's - Frazier ( 2 rings )
80's - Bird ( 3 rings )
90's - hakeem ( 2 rings )
00's - duncan ( 4 rings



its just not the same


kobe took control of a generation. bird will always be the runner up of his time
Kobe did not accomplish more than Duncan.

[CAstill]

I'm curious to hear why you feel Kobe is a better playmaker than Bird.

This should be interesting...


Kobe is better because his playmaking has lead to more success when paired in similar situations. Kobe had more success when plying on a stacked team and had better success when playing with an above average team.

[KG215]

There is more to offense than scoring like running an offense and facilitating it to 3 straight championships. I realize that Kobe had Shaq but Bird had an even more stacked team. He also did it for another 3 consecutive finals appearances so I see no reason to not give Kobe the nod on playmaking. Efficiency Bird got it. Overall I have Kobe above peak bird on offense. We know Kobe can outgun Bird too.
You've got to put Bird's "stacked" team into some perspective. It wasn't anymore "stacked" than the other championship contenders a the time; and, relative to competition, Kobe had just as "stacked" teams the years he won championships. Yes, Bird had more talent but you've got to put it into perspective and consider the other championship contenders at the time.

The fact that you think Kobe, even at his absolute best, was a better playmaker/facilitator than Bird tells me you're either extremely biased towards Kobe or have no clue what you're talking about. Bird is the best passing/playmaking forward of all-time (second best at the absolute worst if you consider LeBron better) and on a different level than Kobe in that regard.

[Ca$H]

You've got to put Bird's "stacked" team into some perspective. It wasn't anymore "stacked" than the other championship contenders a the time; and, relative to competition, Kobe had just as "stacked" teams the years he won championships. Yes, Bird had more talent but you've got to put it into perspective and consider the other championship contenders at the time.

The fact that you think Kobe, even at his absolute best, was a better playmaker/facilitator than Bird tells me you're either extremely biased towards Kobe or have no clue what you're talking about. Bird is the best passing/playmaking forward of all-time (second best at the absolute worst if you consider LeBron better) and on a different level than Kobe in that regard.

I'm a Kobe stan and my peak play ranking for Bird is #6 and for Kobe is #11.
My longevity/career/resume ranking for Kobe is #3 and for Bird is #11.

[CAstill]

You've got to put Bird's "stacked" team into some perspective. It wasn't anymore "stacked" than the other championship contenders a the time; and, relative to competition, Kobe had just as "stacked" teams the years he won championships. Yes, Bird had more talent but you've got to put it into perspective and consider the other championship contenders at the time.

The fact that you think Kobe, even at his absolute best, was a better playmaker/facilitator than Bird tells me you're either extremely biased towards Kobe or have no clue what you're talking about. Bird is the best passing/playmaking forward of all-time (second best at the absolute worst if you consider LeBron better) and on a different level than Kobe in that regard.


Bird had stacked teams and so did Kobe but Kobe had more success. What's hard to understand about that? As far as playmaking goes like I said Kobe's direct playmaking lead to more success when both paired in similar situations. I'm not being bias when I say Kobe is better. I liked Bird a lot but him at his best would get destroyed by peak Kobe. You can refute if you want but Bird would get abused on the court. Maybe on offense Bird would hang but not on both sides of the court.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I'm a Kobe stan and my peak play ranking for Bird is #6 and for Kobe is #11.
My longevity/career/resume ranking for Kobe is #3 and for Bird is #11.

:applause:

[JimmyMcAdocious]

What the ****? When did Wilt enter this thread?

[KG215]

Bird had stacked teams and so did Kobe but Kobe had more success. What's hard to understand about that? As far as playmaking goes like I said Kobe's direct playmaking lead to more success when both paired in similar situations. I'm not being bias when I say Kobe is better. I liked Bird a lot but him at his best would get destroyed by peak Kobe. You can refute if you want but Bird would get abused on the court. Maybe on offense Bird would hang but not on both sides of the court.
:oldlol:

You're taking Kobe's facilitating/playmaking and leading to success out of context when comparing him to Bird. Kobe Bryant was not a better facilitator, playmaker, or passer than Larry Bird. Just because he won more championships in that role, doesn't mean he was better at it than Bird.

You're starting to sound like Griff when made the thread last year something arguing Kobe was the best PG of his generation because he won the most championships as a team's primary playmaker.

Kobe fanboy logic hurts my head.

[CAstill]

:oldlol:

You're taking Kobe's facilitating/playmaking and leading to success out of context when comparing him to Bird. Kobe Bryant was not a better facilitator, playmaker, or passer than Larry Bird. Just because he won more championships in that role, doesn't mean he was better at it than Bird.

You're starting to sound like Griff when made the thread last year something arguing Kobe was the best PG of his generation because he won the most championships as a team's primary. playmaker.

Kobe fanboy logic hurts my head.


You say I take out of context but how so? Explain yourself because there is no denying it. Bird is a more willing passer but he's not better.

[tikay0]

If you weren't born before before 1970 or earlier how can you honestly discuss Bird? That would put you at like 10 for his earliest years so you'd have a chance to witness his prime as a teen/adult.

I'm not going to compare a player who I never saw play to a guy who's entire career I've watched..

Stupid logic. I wasn't born when Ali was at his peak, but I still know that he's the GOAT HW boxer. :confusedshrug:

I never witnessed it live, so NVM, Klitschko is the GOAT HW. :facepalm

[KG215]

You say I take out of context but how so? Explain yourself because there is no denying it. Bird is a more willing passer but he's not better.
:facepalm

Yeah, I'm done here.

[KG215]

CAstill, let me get this straight.

- In the history of the league, the only player that you think peaked higher than Kobe was Jordan?

and

- Kobe Bryant was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator than Larry Bird?

[CAstill]

CAstill, let me get this straight.

- In the history of the league, the only player that you think peaked higher than Kobe was Jordan?

and

- Kobe Bryant was a better passer/playmaker/facilitator than Larry Bird?


I think Kobe is the second best player of all time with him being the most skilled player of all time, So yes I do think he's a better passer/playmaker/facilitator than Bird. I think the same of Jordan. I also think the difference between Kobe and Bird in offense is splitting hairs.

[miles berg]

Kobe is nowhere near Bird lol.

Kobe is, at best, #10. And that's just until LeBron fully passes him, he could easily be argued over him already. In 5 years it won't be a debate.

[gengiskhan]

Kobe and Bird are generally 6 and 7 on the all time list, so it's not crazy to think that Kobe could be considered better than Bird.

you are fully in the left field btw.

Kobe is not ahead of Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar to be considered in Top 10.

He is in the same league of Charles, Moses, Dr. J., Duncam.

11-15.

He is no way close to Bird

Bird has 2 x MVP SWEEPs that should've been 3 if he did not bumped into all-time great team of Magic's LAL.

Kobe has ZERO mvp sweeps.

Now you get the idea how dominant Bird was.

Dont bother comparing "season MVPs" because Kobe will start looking WORSE.

[Electric Slide]

Kobe was better than Bird in most areas especially scoring which is the name of the game.

[MetsPackers]

Kobe isn't even top 10 you clown :roll: :roll: :roll:

[gengiskhan]

Kobe was better than Bird in most areas especially scoring which is the name of the game.

April, 2013

:roll: :roll:

[gengiskhan]

Kobe isn't even top 10 you clown :roll: :roll: :roll:

well said!

Bird is always Top 5 if not 6th position at worse.

Kobe is like 12th or 13th at best.

These is so much gap btw these 2 is downright :roll: :roll:

[gengiskhan]

Kobe is nowhere near Bird lol.

Kobe is, at best, #10. And that's just until LeBron fully passes him, he could easily be argued over him already. In 5 years it won't be a debate.

thats loose 10th hold too. He needed either of those 2004 or 2008 finals to solidify that.

particularly 2008 cuz be won SEASON mvp as LEADER of LAL.

He legacy is way inflated because of LAL franchise.

He is at present 11th soon settling on 13 or 14 forever.

[Spaulding]

Is this real life?

Bird top 5. Kobe aint top 5.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe isn't even top 10 you clown :roll: :roll: :roll:

Depending how Lebron finishes in these finals, you might be right.

[NBASTATMAN]

Discuss.


:roll:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

thats loose 10th hold too. He needed either of those 2004 or 2008 finals to solidify that.

particularly 2008 cuz be won SEASON mvp as LEADER of LAL.

He legacy is way inflated because of LAL franchise.

He is at present 11th soon settling on 13 or 14 forever.

:oldlol: Who knew you need 6 rings to crack the top ten

[Electric Slide]

Bird isn't top 5 either.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Shaq

[gengiskhan]

:oldlol: Who knew you need 6 rings to crack the top ten

:oldlol: but only 2 as a LEADER. the first 3 as GIFTs wrapped up by BIG BROTHER.

:oldlol: LAL is no '90s CHI scrub like franchise. Even if he gets 6, aint remotely same as '90s CHI's 6 rings.

[gengiskhan]

Bird isn't top 5 either.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Shaq

:roll:

1. Jordan
3. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird / Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Oscar

now GTFO.

[Electric Slide]

:roll:

1. Jordan
3. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird / Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. Oscar

now GTFO.
no

the top 10 is probably like this

1. MJ
2. Russ
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Lebron
8. Olajuwon
9. Wilt
10. KG
11. Kobe
12. Bird

[gengiskhan]

no

the top 10 is probably like this

1. MJ
2. Russ
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Lebron
8. Olajuwon
9. Wilt
10. Kobe
11. Bird

April, 2013. :facepalm

Shaq above Hakeem after losing 1995 Finals. :facepalm

Shaq above Hakeem after Hakeem winning 2 x DPOY. :facepalm :facepalm

this list is beyond laughable.

Where is Oscar. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Electric Slide]

April, 2013. :facepalm

Shaq above Hakeem after losing 1995 Finals. :facepalm

Shaq above Hakeem after Hakeem winning 2 x DPOY. :facepalm :facepalm

this list is beyond laughable.

Where is Oscar. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
lol at saying hakeem has to be above shaq just because of 1995 finals.

I guess billups should be ahead of him too, right?

Shaq is above Hakeem after winning 3 Finals MVP and dominating for a much longer period of time. Shaq's peak was better than Hakeem's too.

No argument for Hakeem.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: but only 2 as a LEADER. the first 3 as GIFTs wrapped up by BIG BROTHER.

:oldlol: LAL is no '90s CHI scrub like franchise. Even if he gets 6, aint remotely same as '90s CHI's 6 rings.

Larry Bird was never better than prime Shaq either. He averaged roughly 26/6/6 during the threepeat. That doesn't just get erased from history because he wasn't better the best peak player in NBA history. :confusedshrug:

Also irrelevant, but even moreso when you consider Bird didn't play for the Bulls. Using your own distorted bizarre logic Kobe's titles with the Lakers are more impressive than Bird's because the Lakers had not won as many as the Celtics. :facepalm

[Electric Slide]

I actually forgot about KG. He is actually #10 to me and he is better than both Bird and Kobe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird has no case over Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, KAJ, Duncan, or Shaq.

And it is just a matter of time before LeBron will jump him.
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/Antonio-Banderas-computer-you-got-me-yospos-reaction-13677939419.gif

Bringing up Wilt where he does not have relevance. Bird is a 3x champion, Wilt a 2x champion. LOL @ no case. Wilt does not have a case over Bird.

[Electric Slide]

http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/Antonio-Banderas-computer-you-got-me-yospos-reaction-13677939419.gif

Bringing up Wilt where he does not have relevance. Bird is a 3x champion, Wilt a 2x champion. LOL @ no case. Wilt does not have a case over Bird.
Wilt was better than Bird at everything. There is his case

[Fudge]

Naw... Bird > Kobe.



That is all.

[ralph_i_el]

If Bird didn't have the back issues this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Just different players. I'd take Bird though

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt was better than Bird at everything. There is his case
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/Antonio-Banderas-computer-you-got-me-yospos-reaction-13677939419.gif

[Round Mound]

:roll: :no:

[CAstill]

Wilt was better than Bird at everything. There is his case

:no: Not defense.

[KG215]

:no: Not defense.
Huh? Wilt wasn't a better defensive player than Bird?

[LeBird]

How comes nobody EVER discusses the fact that on Bird's first championship the Finals MVP was Cedric "Cornbred" Maxwell with averages of 18 and 10, outplaying a struggling Bird?

Because he shouldn't have won it over Bird who had an even more impressive series. One where he went toe-to-toe with Moses Malone and came within a handful of rebounds of outrebounding him.


Not to mention that Bird's defense was OK at best. (I believe one time he made an all NBA 2nd or 3rd defensive team). As overrated as Kobe's defense might be to some of you, and perhaps some of his later all-defensive first team selections were due to reputation, prime Kobe's defense is still ELITE and way better than Bird's ever was. The game is played on both sides of the court, gentlemen.

Bird's man-to-man was OK. His team defending was superb.

---

Overall, Kobe is debatable top 10. Bird is debatable GOAT. Kobe's not on that tier.

[tpols]

Larry Bird = Jesus

Kobe = Yeezus


Lebron = Judas

[CAstill]

Huh? Wilt wasn't a better defensive player than Bird?

All bad I read that wrong. I retract statement, thought it said Bird was better at everything lol.

[Electric Slide]

Bird is debatable GOAT.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[gengiskhan]

lol at saying hakeem has to be above shaq just because of 1995 finals.

I guess billups should be ahead of him too, right?

Shaq is above Hakeem after winning 3 Finals MVP and dominating for a much longer period of time. Shaq's peak was better than Hakeem's too.

No argument for Hakeem.

LOL

April, 2013. :lol

Hakeem's FMVP vs Ewing, all time great center. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Hakeem's FMVP vs Shaq, Top 10 GOATs. :bowdown: :bowdown:



Shaq's 3 FMVPs vs ???????. :roll: :roll: :facepalm


The Dream has bested Shaq in sheer dominance & FMVPs.

GTFO now.

/thread.

[Electric Slide]

LOL

April, 2013. :lol

Hakeem's FMVP vs Ewing, all time great center. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Hakeem's FMVP vs Shaq, Top 10 GOATs. :bowdown: :bowdown:



Shaq's 3 FMVPs vs ???????. :roll: :roll: :facepalm


The Dream has bested Shaq in sheer dominance & FMVPs.

GTFO now.

/thread.
The only reason why those 3 Finals MVPs look like nothing is because Shaq was that much dominant than those guys.

[gengiskhan]

Larry Bird was never better than prime Shaq

You are retard beyond comparison!

Bird SHEER DOMINATION of league WITHOUT B'BALL in his hand is UNMATCHED!

Bird has 2 MVP sweeps (FMVP + MVP in same yr). Magic & Shaq, your poster LAL boy's did it ONCE each.

Bird has 3 straight season MVPs with 3 straight Finals appearances with 2 wins & only Heart breaking loss to Top 3 NBA teams ever put together in history in Magic's LAL.

Bird technically 3-peated before MJ if you take Magic's, kareem's LAL out of the picture.

btw 1984-1986. 3 MVPs, 2 FMVPs, not even your poster LAL poster boy Magic came close to Bird.

thats PURE OWNAGE of the league. Nobody was better than Bird.

Bird not just lost 4th ring in 1985, he lost 5th ring in Len Bias' death as Parish & Mchale got really old in 1988 & 1989.

[LeBird]

In a 9 year consecutive span Bird came 4th in MVP voting in his Rookie year; then runner up 3 times; then won it 3 times in a row; then came 3rd; and then runner up again. In an era of Dr J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Magic and Jordan - also lesser likes like Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Isiah and Drexler.

Shaq and Kobe aren't in the same hemisphere as Bird.

[Electric Slide]

In a 9 year consecutive span Bird came 4th in MVP voting in his Rookie year; then runner up 3 times; then won it 3 times in a row; then came 3rd; and then runner up again. In an era of Dr J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Magic and Jordan - also lesser likes like Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Isiah and Drexler.

Shaq and Kobe aren't in the same hemisphere as Bird.
Cool, kid.

Shaq and Kobe were superior playoff performers than him.

[The Iron Fist]

Bird -> unathletic but dominating figure.he couldn t run couldn t jump but he went anywhere he wanted did everything he wanted. he was never carried to champions.was always the man.how can u tell that kobe is purest scorer?his moves are more polished because of the way basketball has developed.bird was unstopable.he inspired a whole generation.unlike kobe he did everything to win.didn t care about chunking shots like kobe.at one game even bird s opponents where high five eachother because of his performance during the game
:facepalm http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1106/nba-finals-mvp/content.19.html

[LeBird]

Cool, kid.

Shaq and Kobe were superior playoff performers than him.
Except for the fact that they weren't. Shaq I'd say is more debatable.

Bird also played in arguably the toughest conference in NBA history. Sixers, Pistons and Bucks and then faced Lakers in the finals.


:facepalm http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1106/nba-finals-mvp/content.19.html

Bird was ALWAYS the man.

[TonyMontana]

Larry Bird was the best non 7-footer to ever play basketball. The only non 7 footer you can argue is LeBron.

3 Championships in the most competitive era in NBA History. Bird gets underrated now, but back when the game wasn't all about hero ball, Bird was talked about as being the best player ever.

Before Boston drafted Bird, they were irrelevant and went 29-53 the year before. With him, rookie Bird immedietly transformed them into a 61-21 team.

Bird is a guy that elevates both his teammates and the franchise by his presence alone. Similar in that regard to LeBron James. LeBron didn't come to the league as polished as Bird though who immediately became one of the very best players.

With Kobe alone your not guaranteed anything. 3 years of his prime went without a single playoff series victory while Bird immediately transforms a 29 win Celtics team into a 60 win ballclub.

Kobe isn't big enough to make a difference in the interior. He is a high volume shot jacker and that alone doesn't make as much of an impact as Birds elite scoring, rebounding, and playmaking.

[TrueRob]

Bird isn't top 5 either.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Shaq

Wow, no Wilt in the top 5? :wtf:

[LAZERUSS]

Larry Bird was the best non 7-footer to ever play basketball. The only non 7 footer you can argue is LeBron.

3 Championships in the most competitive era in NBA History. Bird gets underrated now, but back when the game wasn't all about hero ball, Bird was talked about as being the best player ever.

Before Boston drafted Bird, they were irrelevant and went 29-53 the year before. With him, rookie Bird immedietly transformed them into a 61-21 team.

Bird is a guy that elevates both his teammates and the franchise by his presence alone. Similar in that regard to LeBron James. LeBron didn't come to the league as polished as Bird though who immediately became one of the very best players.

With Kobe alone your not guaranteed anything. 3 years of his prime went without a single playoff series victory while Bird immediately transforms a 29 win Celtics team into a 60 win ballclub.

Kobe isn't big enough to make a difference in the interior. He is a high volume shot jacker and that alone doesn't make as much of an impact as Birds elite scoring, rebounding, and playmaking.

Hmmm, MJ might have some say in that. As do Magic and Russell (and Duncan if you use his actual 6-11 height.)

[KG215]

Larry Bird was the best non 7-footer to ever play basketball. The only non 7 footer you can argue is LeBron.

3 Championships in the most competitive era in NBA History. Bird gets underrated now, but back when the game wasn't all about hero ball, Bird was talked about as being the best player ever.

Before Boston drafted Bird, they were irrelevant and went 29-53 the year before. With him, rookie Bird immedietly transformed them into a 61-21 team.

Bird is a guy that elevates both his teammates and the franchise by his presence alone. Similar in that regard to LeBron James. LeBron didn't come to the league as polished as Bird though who immediately became one of the very best players.

With Kobe alone your not guaranteed anything. 3 years of his prime went without a single playoff series victory while Bird immediately transforms a 29 win Celtics team into a 60 win ballclub.

Kobe isn't big enough to make a difference in the interior. He is a high volume shot jacker and that alone doesn't make as much of an impact as Birds elite scoring, rebounding, and playmaking.
:oldlol:

Yeah, that Michael Jordan guy isn't even in the same discussion as Bird and LeBron. Come on man, I know you have this weird, over the top obsession with LeBron, but to act like Jordan's not even in the same conversation with him and Bird? You're better than that.

[TonyMontana]

Hmmm, MJ might have some say in that. As do Magic and Russell (and Duncan if you use his actual 6-11 height.)

MJ is just a richmans version of Kobe. Both extremely overrated and their winning had more to do with them being coached by the greatest head coach in NBA History along with their casts which were unquestionably the tops in the league during the years they won.

Just look at how Shaqs game transformed when he had Phil Jackson coach him. Same team from 99 and then 00, but Phil transformed Shaq into the greatest force basketball has ever seen.

If you see Shaq coached by Phil for his entire prime you'd see more peak years from Shaq and many more rings.

Noone in the 80s thought Magic > Bird. That shit has just popped up recently on message boards because you see a lot of Laker fans on them. These guys never seen any of them play and their only argument is the rings. Idiots. :oldlol:

Duncan was counted as a 7 footer, and Russell is the same player as ben wallace. I'd love for someone to tell me one thing Russell did way better than a guy like Ben Wallace. If your only answer is "winning" I look forward to seeing Horry on your top ten.

[Electric Slide]

Except for the fact that they weren't. Shaq I'd say is more debatable.
You ever saw Bird's shooting in the post-season and in some series? They were bad, really bad.

Bird also lost with HCA more than any other all-time great.

[LAZERUSS]

MJ is just a richmans version of Kobe. Both extremely overrated and their winning had more to do with them being coached by the greatest head coach in NBA History along with their casts which were unquestionably the tops in the league during the years they won.

Just look at how Shaqs game transformed when he had Phil Jackson coach him. Same team from 99 and then 00, but Phil transformed Shaq into the greatest force basketball has ever seen.

If you see Shaq coached by Phil for his entire prime you'd see more peak years from Shaq and many more rings.

Noone in the 80s thought Magic > Bird. That shit has just popped up recently on message boards because you see a lot of Laker fans on them. These guys never seen any of them play and their only argument is the rings. Idiots. :oldlol:

Duncan was counted as a 7 footer, and Russell is the same player as ben wallace. I'd love for someone to tell me one thing Russell did way better than a guy like Ben Wallace. If your only answer is "winning" I look forward to seeing Horry on your top ten.

Well, let's start with offense, including both scoring and passing. Russell was averaging 4-5 apg, and as many as 6 in the post-season. In fact, the Boston offense ran thru Russell from the early to mid-60's.

And how many 18-19 pp seasons, and 20+ ppg post-seasons did Wallace have? Find me a 22-26 series by Wallace in the post-season, and against someone like Wilt. Or leading his team in scoring in the '66 Finals, at 23.6 ppg. Or putting up 30-38 and even 30-40 Finals games. Or how about an 18 ppg, 27 rpg, .702 FG% (yes, .702 FG%) Finals?

And Russell was better at everything that Wallace was good at, like defense, rebounding, and shot-blocking.

[KG215]

MJ is just a richmans version of Kobe. Both extremely overrated and their winning had more to do with them being coached by the greatest head coach in NBA History along with their casts which were unquestionably the tops in the league during the years they won.
So was LeBron's last year.


Duncan was counted as a 7 footer, and Russell is the same player as ben wallace. I'd love for someone to tell me one thing Russell did way better than a guy like Ben Wallace. If your only answer is "winning" I look forward to seeing Horry on your top ten.
:facepalm

[tpols]

So was LeBron's last year.


:facepalm
Umm does the name horace grant ring a bell?:rolleyes:

He was a fvcking rebounding and defensive legend.

And that bill Cartwright guy...just icing on the interior cake.

[gengiskhan]

The only reason why those 3 Finals MVPs look like nothing is because Shaq was that much dominant than those guys.

is this guy serious.

a skinny 6'7" weaker version of Miller & 1998 pacers showed up against Shaq & took him to game 6 in 2000 finals.

how is this even comparable to epic 7 games war btw Hakeem & Ewing.

how is this even comparable to epic 4 games sweep of much better 1995 ORL magic & 23 y.o. force of nature called SHAQ.

you need to know your history before you compared shaq's fmvps to Hakeems.

Hakeem's FMVPs >>>>>> Shaq's FMVPs.

GTFO now.

you've been schooled & owned beyond mutilation.

[Electric Slide]

is this guy serious.

a skinny 6'7" weaker version of Miller & 1998 pacers showed up against Shaq & took him to game 6 in 2000 finals.

how is this even comparable to epic 7 games war btw Hakeem & Ewing.

how is this even comparable to epic 4 games sweep of much better 1995 ORL magic & 23 y.o. force of nature called SHAQ.

you need to know your history before you compared shaq's fmvps to Hakeems.

Hakeem's FMVPs >>>>>> Shaq's FMVPs.

GTFO now.

you've been schooled & owned beyond mutilation.
Shaq dominated Duncan, Webber, and whoever the **** you want to list. The East was weak but he still owned the West.

90s West was weak then.

[gengiskhan]

In a 9 year consecutive span Bird came 4th in MVP voting in his Rookie year; then runner up 3 times; then won it 3 times in a row; then came 3rd; and then runner up again. In an era of Dr J, Moses Malone, Kareem, Magic and Jordan - also lesser likes like Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Isiah and Drexler.

Shaq and Kobe aren't in the same hemisphere as Bird.

Only comparable GOAT from 1980s to Bird was 1985-1989 Jordan.

& MJ was insane in those years. this goes to show at what level Bird was playing.

He is Top 5 GOATs LOCKED!

Kobe aint even Top 10.

Shaq is Top 10 LOCKED!

Its a shame how these retarded ISH threads reduce Bird to.

[gengiskhan]

Shaq dominated Duncan, Webber, and whoever the **** you want to list. The East was weak but he still owned the West.

90s West was weak then.

Hakeem's OWNAGE..

D'Rob was in the WEST.
LAL were in the WEST.
Clyde & PORTLAND were in the WEST.
Malone, Stockton were in the WEST.

You need to educate yourself before trolling.

Duncan aint good enough to fit Charles' shoes. He is a weak era INFLATED legacy product like Kobe.

Duncan wont last 4 games series against MAILMAN.

I wont even bother with webber.

Hakeem is just SUPERIOR to Shaq legacy wise. He survived everything incl. D'rob.

Shaq succumbed to Hakeem in 1995 finals. He survived Ewing & Mourning at best.

[NumberSix]

Can we really compare players who's primes were 20 years apart? Completely different eras.

[Electric Slide]

D'Rob was in the WEST.
LAL were in the WEST.
Clyde & PORTLAND were in the WEST.
Malone, Stockton were in the WEST.

You need to educate yourself before trolling.

Duncan aint good enough to fit Charles' shoes. He is a weak era INFLATED legacy product like Kobe.

Duncan wont last 4 games series against MAILMAN.

I wont even bother with webber.

Hakeem is just SUPERIOR to Shaq legacy wise. He survived everything incl. D'rob.

Shaq succumbed to Hakeem in 1995 finals. He survived Ewing & mourning at best.
DRob, he is no Duncan
LAL, sucked at the time, no Magic, no Shaq, nothing.
Blazers, big chokers.
Malone and Stockton, oh you mean the duo that dominated Rockets in 97 and 98?

you are just overrating the past.

Nobody thinks Hakeem is better than Shaq. Hakeem has gotten overrated since YouTube came out because people could see his aesthetic scoring style. It's too bad Shaq's overpowering method is more reliable.

[gengiskhan]

DRob, he is no Duncan
LAL, sucked at the time, no Magic, no Shaq, nothing.
Blazers, big chokers.
Malone and Stockton, oh you mean the duo that dominated Rockets in 97 and 98?

you are just overrating the past.

Nobody thinks Hakeem is better than Shaq. Hakeem has gotten overrated since YouTube came out because people could see his aesthetic scoring style. It's too bad Shaq's overpowering method is more reliable.

Kobe thinks so. reason why he goes to HOU to get lessons from Hakeem.
LBJ thinks so. reason why he goes to HOU to get lessons from Hakeem.
Dwight thinks so. reason why he goes to learn the dream shake from hakeem.

Your a55 has been manhandled beyond recognition.

ban youself of go comit suicide.

peace of trash.

Shaq's overpowering method led to Hakeem RAPPPING his a55 in the 1995 finals in 4 game sweep.

go watch the YTvideo.

Hopefully you'll grow up. :oldlol:

April, 2013. :facepalm

[gengiskhan]

Wow, no Wilt in the top 5? :wtf:

April, 2013 :lol :roll:

what did you expect.

These infants are still toddling.

Eventually, they'll learn to walk.

[NumberSix]

Kobe thinks so. reason why he goes to HOU to get lessons from Hakeem.
LBJ thinks so. reason why he goes to HOU to get lessons from Hakeem.
Dwight thinks so. reason why he goes to learn the dream shake from hakeem.
They go to Hakeem because it's possible to teach post moves. It's not possible to teach size or power.

[Alan Ogg]

Larry Bird had an 8 / 9 year stretch that was UNBELIEVABLE. Keep in mind this is an era with Moses, Magic, and Jordan. Bird is solid top 5 for me.

http://i.imgur.com/nQvHlkE.jpg?1

[gengiskhan]

They go to Hakeem because it's possible to teach post moves. It's not possible to teach size or power.

They go to hakeem because he is MORE SKILLED!

trust me, If shaq was less powerful & lesser strengthened, he still cannot incorporate the "DREAM SHAKE" & the GOAT "FOOT WORK"

Shaq was never offensively & defensively a center of Hakeem's calibre.

a reason why he couldn't even win single DPOY being the only relic DOMINANT big man left after everyone is gone btw 1999-2004.

Reality Check!

[gengiskhan]

Larry Bird had an 8 / 9 year stretch that was UNBELIEVABLE. Keep in mind this is an era with Moses, Magic, and Jordan. Bird is solid top 5 for me.

http://i.imgur.com/nQvHlkE.jpg?1

thanks.

I know this already.

unfortunately, there are absolute retards here on here who thinks Moses is some biblical figure & not an all-timer of Kobe's & Duncan's calibre.

Bird is LEAGUES SUPERIOR to Kobe.!

Its not even a contest.

Head to head, Bird beats Magic.

Bird is Top 5 GOATs. no doubt.

[D-Wade316]

OP is correct.

[k0kakw0rld]

24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG Reg season 49.6 FG%
23.8 PPG 10.3 RPG 6.5 APG Playoffs 47.2 FG%

1979 John Wooden Award as Collegiate Player of the Year, Los Angeles Athletic Association
1980 Named NBA Rookie of the Year
1981, 1984, 1986 NBA championship (2 FMVPs)
1984-85 NBA Most Valuable Player in Playoffs
1984-86 Named NBA Player of the Year
1985 Man of the Year, Sporting News
1985 Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year
1992 Olympic Gold Medal (U.S. men's basketball team)
1998 Inducted into Basketball Hall of Fame
1998 Named NBA Coach of the Year



top 5 nuff said!

and I'm far from done!

[ThaRegul8r]

i'm sorry but when you think of the best of their generation

you think of

60's - russell ( 11 rings )
70's - kareem ( 6 rings )

Kareem didn't win 6 rings in the '70s, nor did he win the majority of his 6 rings in the '70s.

[NumberSix]

They go to hakeem because he is MORE SKILLED!

trust me, If shaq was less powerful & lesser strengthened, he still cannot incorporate the "DREAM SHAKE" & the GOAT "FOOT WORK"

Shaq was never offensively & defensively a center of Hakeem's calibre.

a reason why he couldn't even win single DPOY being the only relic DOMINANT big man left after everyone is gone btw 1999-2004.

Reality Check!
Of course Hakeem was more skilled. Who ever argued otherwise?

[IllegalD]

:oldlol: but only 2 as a LEADER. the first 3 as GIFTs wrapped up by BIG BROTHER.

:oldlol: LAL is no '90s CHI scrub like franchise. Even if he gets 6, aint remotely same as '90s CHI's 6 rings.

Was Bird's first championship gift-wrapped by Cedric Maxell since he was the Finals MVP and not Bird?

:confusedshrug:

[gengiskhan]

24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG Reg season 49.6 FG%
23.8 PPG 10.3 RPG 6.5 APG Playoffs 47.2 FG%

1979 John Wooden Award as Collegiate Player of the Year, Los Angeles Athletic Association
1980 Named NBA Rookie of the Year
1981, 1984, 1986 NBA championship (2 FMVPs)
1984-85 NBA Most Valuable Player in Playoffs
1984-86 Named NBA Player of the Year
1985 Man of the Year, Sporting News
1985 Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year
1992 Olympic Gold Medal (U.S. men's basketball team)
1998 Inducted into Basketball Hall of Fame
1998 Named NBA Coach of the Year

top 5 nuff said!

and I'm far from done!

But...But...But...

Mamba has 0.7 ppg more than Bird. :roll:

who cares about 10+RPG. rebounds are overrated because our GawdBE said "go get the rebounds". :oldlol:

who cares about FG% particularly in the finals because our GAWD mamba shot only 41%FG & still won 5 rings. :oldlol:

5 > 3. :lol :oldlol:

our mamba wins. :lol :oldlol:

[KG215]

D'Rob was in the WEST.
LAL were in the WEST.
Clyde & PORTLAND were in the WEST.
Malone, Stockton were in the WEST.

You need to educate yourself before trolling.

Duncan aint good enough to fit Charles' shoes. He is a weak era INFLATED legacy product like Kobe.

Duncan wont last 4 games series against MAILMAN.

I wont even bother with webber.

Hakeem is just SUPERIOR to Shaq legacy wise. He survived everything incl. D'rob.

Shaq succumbed to Hakeem in 1995 finals. He survived Ewing & mourning at best.
I'm curious. Are you purposely trolling? Or do you actually believe most of the stuff you post?

[gengiskhan]

Was Bird's first championship gift-wrapped by Cedric Maxell since he was the Finals MVP and not Bird?

:confusedshrug:

Bird was the leader of BOS.
Bird made Maxell better just like he made Parish & Mchale better.

Isiah lost FMVP to dumars dont make Dumars a leader of Pistons.

Only Kobe is the real sabotour of a LAL when he deliberately attempts to win FMVPs in 2004 & 2008.

a perfect recipe of losing not just FMVP but also Finals.

[ripthekik]

24.3 PPG 10.0 RPG 6.3 APG Reg season 49.6 FG%
23.8 PPG 10.3 RPG 6.5 APG Playoffs 47.2 FG%

1979 John Wooden Award as Collegiate Player of the Year, Los Angeles Athletic Association
1980 Named NBA Rookie of the Year
1981, 1984, 1986 NBA championship (2 FMVPs)
1984-85 NBA Most Valuable Player in Playoffs
1984-86 Named NBA Player of the Year
1985 Man of the Year, Sporting News
1985 Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year
1992 Olympic Gold Medal (U.S. men's basketball team)
1998 Inducted into Basketball Hall of Fame
1998 Named NBA Coach of the Year



top 5 nuff said!

and I'm far from done!
lol, post Kobe's list of achievements, I'm sure it trumps that short list :oldlol:

[gengiskhan]

lol, post Kobe's list of achievements, I'm sure it trumps that short list :oldlol:

1 consolation MVP for 17 yrs.
NO ncaa legacy
NO rookie of the year.
1 solid FMVP
1 weak FMVP.



Thats it.

Kobe has nothing on Bird.

Epic MAMBA fail as usual thanks to INFLATED legacy.

[D-Wade316]

Bird gets way more pass than any other past players. West too.

[ripthekik]

1 consolation MVP for 17 yrs.
NO ncaa legacy
NO rookie of the year.
1 solid FMVP
1 weak FMVP.



Thats it.

Kobe has nothing on Bird.

Epic MAMBA fail as usual thanks to INFLATED legacy.
What does NCAA legacy have to do with NBA top 10 GOAT list :roll: :roll: :roll:

and MVP? Oh Shaq has 1 too, while steve nash has 2. What does that tell you? It's a media award that means nothing.

No rookie award means he came in at 18 years old and had to work his way up. Earned, not GIVEN.

[gengiskhan]

Bird gets way more pass than any other past players. West too.

cuz

Bird OWNED, BEASTED & MASTERED the game & INVENTED the modern day SF position.

But there is more reverse discrimination against Bird because of him being white & non-athlete.

ever thought of that.

You dont average 25 ppg & 10 rpg the whole career & get a pass.

& Bird lacked Ball hogging something Kobe desperately needs to do to get to 25 ppg.

Now get some psych help.

[KG215]

You know a thread has gone to shit when the last couple of pages are filled mostly with "This message is hidden because ___________ is on your ignore list."

[gengiskhan]

You know a thread has gone to shit when the last couple of pages are filled mostly with "This message is hidden because ___________ is on your ignore list."

People put other people on ignore list because they cannot handle the truth or they get OWNED & have thin skin for criticism.

Why open an account if you're gonna have an ignore list.

Just dont show up on ISH.

[ripthekik]

You know a thread has gone to shit when the last couple of pages are filled mostly with "This message is hidden because ___________ is on your ignore list."
having an ignore list is probably the biggest sign of weakest on ISH. Can't even bear to view posts by random members of a basketball forum? can't even ignore by yourself?

I wonder how you'd function when you grow up and get into the real world :oldlol:

[KG215]

People put other people on ignore list because they cannot handle the truth or they get OWNED & have thin skin for criticism.

Why open an account if you're gonna have an ignore list.

Just dont show up on ISH.
No, people put you on ignore because you're an idiot who spams threads with his heavily biased agenda.

[KG215]

having an ignore list is probably the biggest sign of weakest on ISH. Can't even bear to view posts by random members of a basketball forum? can't even ignore by yourself?

I wonder how you'd function when you grow up and get into the real world :oldlol:
See what I said about gengiskhan. You two are two of the worst trolls on here. You flood threads with your ridiculous bullshit agenda and it gets old wading through threads having to see you two basically repeat yourselves over and over.

[Electric Slide]

FYI - I actually think Bird is better. I made the thread title more so for shock value. I do think Kobe has a good argument over Bird but I would take Bird over Kobe usually. Bird was just more team oriented.

[Breezy]

Alright everyone Calm down! Ill give you my opinion already just relax and quit begging.

I have it like this
5.Bird
6.Bryant

I give the nod to bird based on his superior skills and the 3 mvps in a row in a league with fierce competition. Bird was the better shooter, rebounder, passer.

It's pretty darn close. However I'm right and if you disagree with me at all then your life is not worth living.:cheers:

[plowking]

I have him above Magic, but certainly not Bird. Peak play is more important after a certain amount of championships. Bird has won 3, and could have won a few more if it wasn't for injuries to key Celtic players in a few years, particularly 87.

Bird has more MVP's, more championships as the lead guy, he had GOAT talks when he was playing, etc. At his best he was a better basketball player than Kobe, and that's not a knock, since that goes for most apart from maybe 3 or 4 guys.

[Legends66NBA7]

I wonder how you'd function when you grow up and get into the real world

If this board or the internet for that matter were anything like the real world, a lot of the trolls on here would not exist.

Infact, the majority wouldn't dare to be confrontational with non sense.

[gengiskhan]

No, people put you on ignore because you're an idiot who spams threads with his heavily biased agenda.

damb phak

I've given you all the reason why Bird is SUPERIOR to Kobe at every level. NCAA, NBA, Playoffs & Finals.

What so spamy & biased agenda about it.

You still dont see reverse discrimination against Bird because of him being caucasian and non athlete, then you are just another ghetto n-----.

ISH is better off without full retard like you.

just F off from here.

[Doranku]

Bird gets way more pass than any other past players. West too.

This.

Not sure about Bird, but West would be absolutely annihilated by the media if his career took place in modern times. 9 losses in the finals? Not a chance he would be considered a top 15 player of all time.

[Svendiggity]

I have him above Magic, but certainly not Bird. Peak play is more important after a certain amount of championships. Bird has won 3, and could have won a few more if it wasn't for injuries to key Celtic players in a few years, particularly 87.

Bird has more MVP's, more championships as the lead guy, he had GOAT talks when he was playing, etc. At his best he was a better basketball player than Kobe, and that's not a knock, since that goes for most apart from maybe 3 or 4 guys.

I agree that Bird was better at his peak but something has to be said for longevity, too. I mean, Jerry Rice was the best reciever of all time because of the longevity of his greatness. He avoided hits by running out of bounds, he ate healthy, stretched and took care of his body. 3 or 4 recievers were just as good at their peak, but he made his greatness last until his late 30's.

I respect Bird for throwing his body around, fighting and scrapping for everything, but that breaks you down eventually. Sometimes you shouldn't run full speed and dive to save a ball you have no chance of getting in the 20th game of the regular season, no? I don't know, maybe you should. Obviously nobody was going to tell him to play any different, it's what defined him.

[The_Yearning]

I always laugh when someone says on THE list, as if there's just one universal list.

I highly doubt you're laughing.

[ThaRegul8r]

This.

Not sure about Bird, but West would be absolutely annihilated by the media if his career took place in modern times. 9 losses in the finals? Not a chance he would be considered a top 15 player of all time.

So...

... in the years since then, on multiple message boards, Karl Malone gets a pass for losing in the Finals while not playing like an MVP in doing so "because he had the misfortune of facing Jordan," but West "would be absolutely annihilated" for playing terrifically and losing to the GOAT dynasty led by the man who knew how to win to a greater extent than any other athlete to play pro sports.

Do I have this correct?

[ThaRegul8r]

I always laugh when someone says on THE list, as if there's just one universal list.

Didn't you know? Everyone's arbitrary list is always THE official list and final word on the subject.

[Millennium X]

nobody can question that Kobe is a better scorer and a much better defender AND that he has won more (5 titles > 3 titles). the only thing that makes bird better is narrative driven BS myths about his game. bird fans can't argue that bird was a better player on both sides of the floor or a better winner.

[poido123]

I agree that Bird was better at his peak but something has to be said for longevity, too. I mean, Jerry Rice was the best reciever of all time because of the longevity of his greatness. He avoided hits by running out of bounds, he ate healthy, stretched and took care of his body. 3 or 4 recievers were just as good at their peak, but he made his greatness last until his late 30's.

I respect Bird for throwing his body around, fighting and scrapping for everything, but that breaks you down eventually. Sometimes you shouldn't run full speed and dive to save a ball you have no chance of getting in the 20th game of the regular season, no? I don't know, maybe you should. Obviously nobody was going to tell him to play any different, it's what defined him.

Dude, this is the attitude of the new generation ballers. Save themselves and not risk being hurt or putting their all into every game. To knock Bird for doing that is kind of stupid and you can't put a player above him purely on longevity, how stupid :lol: GOAT ranks players based on peak play, not longevity :facepalm:

[D-Wade316]

So...

... in the years since then, on multiple message boards, Karl Malone gets a pass for losing in the Finals while not playing like an MVP in doing so "because he had the misfortune of facing Jordan," but West "would be absolutely annihilated" for playing terrifically and losing to the GOAT dynasty led by the man who knew how to win to a greater extent than any other athlete to play pro sports.

Do I have this correct?
Karl Malone gets no pass from me.

[D-Wade316]

I highly doubt you're laughing.
lol. Haha

[The-Legend-24]

Past players are so fvcking overrated on ISH, it's crazy. :oldlol:

[Sammyp]

No.

Seriously, watch some Bird's highlights or something. Guys like Bird/Magic/Kareem influenced basketball unlike any others. Kobe's just a MJ copy whose achievement are tainted while still not as impressive as other top 5 players.

[gengiskhan]

Past players are so fvcking overrated on ISH, it's crazy. :oldlol:

Location: Los Angeles. :lol

FAQ:

Q. How to enhance Kobe's fading legacy?

A. Past GOATs are overated. Bird needs to be brought out, Hakeem is overrated, Oscar dont belong in top 10.

[fpliii]

:facepalm

I couldn't care less if somebody has Kobe ahead of Bird in his personal rankings, but these threads go way too far. The hatred and vitriol posters exhibit to further their agendas is mind-blowing.

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm

I couldn't care less if somebody has Kobe ahead of Bird in his personal rankings, but these threads go way too far. The hatred and vitriol posters exhibit to further their agendas is mind-blowing.

Pretty much this.

Personally I think the two would rank very close in any kind of all-time ranking. And that is based on solid criteria, not opinions. But in any case, they were both among the top echelon of players to have ever played the game. There is no need to bash the other. Nor do they even care if anyone on ISH does.

[gengiskhan]

Pretty much this.

Personally I think the two would rank very close in any kind of all-time ranking. And that is based on solid criteria, not opinions. But in any case, they were both among the top echelon of players to have ever played the game. There is no need to bash the other. Nor do they even care if anyone on ISH does.

:facepalm

this kind of extreme personal agenda we're talking about.

Player A drags Bunch of no names scrubs at Indiana state to 1979 NCAA title game.
Player B warms bench for NBA's winningest franchise.

Player A wins NBA Rookie of the year with 21.3/ 4.5/ 10.4
Player B shoots 3 CLUTCH air-balls in a row in a must win game.

Player A wins NBA championship as 2nd year pro as a LEADER.
Player B wins NBA championship as SIDEKICK to GOAT shaq's peak prime.

Player A wins 3 consequitive MVPs in a row with SHEER DOMINANCE.
Player B wins 1 consolation MVP for 17 yrs service to LAL franchise.

Player A has 2 MVP "sweeps" which incl. 1 FMVP over Top 5 GOAT.
Player B has only 1 unanimous FMVP over weakest finalist ever.

Player A has won HEAD COACH of the year.
Player B ??????????????????????????????

Player A has won EXECUTIVE of the year.
Player B ????????????????????????????????



Player A is Top 5 GOATs Locked!!!!!

Player B is Top 15 all-timer AT BEST!

Player B is FEW NOTCHES below Player A

comparison is completely futile.

Its NEVER close.

[mehyaM24]

Hakeem's OWNAGE..

D'Rob was in the WEST.
LAL were in the WEST.
Clyde & PORTLAND were in the WEST.
Malone, Stockton were in the WEST.

You need to educate yourself before trolling.

Duncan aint good enough to fit Charles' shoes. He is a weak era INFLATED legacy product like Kobe.

Duncan wont last 4 games series against MAILMAN.

I wont even bother with webber.

Hakeem is just SUPERIOR to Shaq legacy wise. He survived everything incl. D'rob.

Shaq succumbed to Hakeem in 1995 finals. He survived Ewing & Mourning at best.

there was no tougher "matchup" than the twin towers of robinson and Duncan..........Duncan/robinson= 8-9 record vs shaq in playoffs.......yet a 34-15 record vs everybody else in the playoffs....shaq is laughing at hakeem

[LAZERUSS]

:facepalm

this kind of extreme personal agenda we're talking about.

Player A drags Bunch of no names scrubs at Indiana state to 1979 NCAA title game.
Player B warms bench for NBA's winningest franchise.

Player A wins NBA Rookie of the year with 21.3/ 4.5/ 10.4
Player B shoots 3 CLUTCH air-balls in a row in a must win game.

Player A wins NBA championship as 2nd year pro as a LEADER.
Player B wins NBA championship as SIDEKICK to GOAT shaq's peak prime.

Player A wins 3 consequitive MVPs in a row with SHEER DOMINANCE.
Player B wins 1 consolation MVP for 17 yrs service to LAL franchise.

Player A has 2 MVP "sweeps" which incl. 1 FMVP over Top 5 GOAT.
Player B has only 1 unanimous FMVP over weakest finalist ever.

Player A has won HEAD COACH of the year.
Player B ??????????????????????????????

Player A has won EXECUTIVE of the year.
Player B ????????????????????????????????



Player A is Top 5 GOATs Locked!!!!!

Player B is Top 15 all-timer AT BEST!

Player B is FEW NOTCHES below Player A

comparison is completely futile.

Its NEVER close.

I will Deuce post all of Kobe's career accomplishments, of which he has many. But Kobe was not only "the man" in two of his titles, he was "the man" in a couple of WCF's, when paired with Shaq, too.

And you are somehow minimizing just what a great scorer has been throughout his career. I'm sorry, but Bird was not the pure scorer that Kobe was in both the regular season, nor the post-season. And while Bird struggled against the likes of Michael Cooper for much of his post-season career, Kobe was lighting up the "Kobe-stoppers" in his post-seasons (Bowen, Christy, and Patterson.)

I don't have a problem with those that rank Bird above Kobe, but please, Bird was not infallible. He had his share of post-season meltdowns (as have almost very great player.) He played on stacked rosters his entire career, and won three rings. And his team's lost with HCA seven times. And in several of those, he just plain struggled offensively.

[gengiskhan]

I will Deuce post all of Kobe's career accomplishments, of which he has many.

should've stopped right there.

reading further is futile.

NO NCAA legacy
NO Rookie of the year.
1 MVP in 17 yrs

is nothing Top 5 GOAT stuff.

This thread is created to belittle the Best Player of 1980s decade.

If you wanna bring Kobe's 2 scoring titles argument, its a joke cuz Bird never really BALL HOGGED, CHUCKED to that level.

trust me, he could've had 3-4 scoring titles himself on team's expense if he tried.

Besides MJ of '80s, there was no BETTER PURE SCORER than Bird & MJ did not chucked till 1987.

Bird was unbelievably selfless team player hence ZERO scoring titles.

His pure class & skillset got him to 30 ppg for 1 seasons.

Imagine what he could've done with ball hogging.

[LAZERUSS]

should've stopped right there.

reading further is futile.

NO NCAA legacy
NO Rookie of the year.
1 MVP in 17 yrs

is nothing Top 5 GOAT stuff.

This thread is created to belittle the Best Player of 1980s decade.

If you wanna bring Kobe's 2 scoring titles argument, its a joke cuz Bird never really BALL HOGGED, CHUCKED to that level.
trust me, he could've had 3-4 scoring titles himself on team's expense if he tried.

Besides MJ of '80s, there was no BETTER PURE SCORER than Bird & MJ did not chucked till 1987.

Bird was unbelievably selfless team player hence ZERO scoring titles.

His pure class & skillset got him to 30 ppg for 1 seasons.

Imagine what he could've done with ball hogging.

And you can stop right there. I agree that Bird could have scored more in his career, but the same could be said for Kobe, too. But to be the elite scorer that Kobe was, required Kobe's ability to get his shot off, against any number of defenders, and against any number of defenses...and many of them aimed strictly at stopping him. Kobe and Michael were the two greatest players at getting their shots in NBA history. Bird wa a better pure shooter, but was not at their level in terms of pure scoring.

And please, can you forget the NCAA and ROY nonsense? Bird was averaging 21 ppg at age 23. At age 22 Kobe was at 28.5 ppg. At 24 Bird was still at 21 ppg, while Kobe was at 30 ppg. At while Bird was averaging 22 ppg in the playoffs at age 24, Kobe was averaging 32 ppg in the playoffs at the same age.

BTW, Kobe "the chucker" had a post-season eFG% of .480, while Bird "the team player" was at .485. Not much difference, is there?

Sorry, but Bird was not on Kobe's level in terms of scoring. And while I'll give Bird a solid edge in rebounding, and an edge in passing, but Kobe was a considerably better defender his entire career.

[LeBird]

You ever saw Bird's shooting in the post-season and in some series? They were bad, really bad.

They were generally bad because he had a bad back, his teammates were injured and he was being overplayed 40+ minutes in a conference where it was a dogfight to get to the finals. And Bird was a threat in numerous other ways when he wasn't scoring - elite rebounding and facilitating.


Bird also lost with HCA more than any other all-time great.

Losing to the Sixers, Pistons and Lakers is no disgrace. Those were all-time great sides with comparable talent. The only so-so team (which was still a relatively good team) were the Bucks - who just had an amazing year.

Arguing about HCA is just a Jordan-fan thing but it means nothing in an era of 4 truly all-time great teams. It just means you didn't win every year, which is hardly a crime.


Was Bird's first championship gift-wrapped by Cedric Maxell since he was the Finals MVP and not Bird?

:confusedshrug:

Maxwell: 17.7/9.5/2.8
Bird: 15.3/15.3/7.0 and 2.3 steals - this, going head to head banging the boards with Moses Malone (arguably the greatest rebounder not named Rodman).

Gift-wrapped? :lol

[sportjames23]

They were generally bad because he had a bad back, his teammates were injured and he was being overplayed 40+ minutes in a conference where it was a dogfight to get to the finals. And Bird was a threat in numerous other ways when he wasn't scoring - elite rebounding and facilitating.



Losing to the Sixers, Pistons and Lakers is no disgrace. Those were all-time great sides with comparable talent. The only so-so team (which was still a relatively good team) were the Bucks - who just had an amazing year.

Arguing about HCA is just a Jordan-fan thing but it means nothing in an era of 4 truly all-time great teams. It just means you didn't win every year, which is hardly a crime.



Maxwell: 17.7/9.5/2.8
Bird: 15.3/15.3/7.0 and 2.3 steals - this, going head to head banging the boards with Moses Malone (arguably the greatest rebounder not named Rodman).

Gift-wrapped? :lol


This muhfvcka had to bring Jordan into this by proxy. :facepalm

I've never seen a fan of an Old School player hate on Jordan as much as you. Usually, it's these young dumbasses who think the NBA started with Kobe and Lebron who hate on MJ, but you're up there with them.

[Kiddlovesnets]

So you are saying Bird is not a top 10 GOAT like Kobe isnt?
:eek:

[TonyMontana]

Well, let's start with offense, including both scoring and passing. Russell was averaging 4-5 apg, and as many as 6 in the post-season. In fact, the Boston offense ran thru Russell from the early to mid-60's.

And how many 18-19 pp seasons, and 20+ ppg post-seasons did Wallace have? Find me a 22-26 series by Wallace in the post-season, and against someone like Wilt. Or leading his team in scoring in the '66 Finals, at 23.6 ppg. Or putting up 30-38 and even 30-40 Finals games. Or how about an 18 ppg, 27 rpg, .702 FG% (yes, .702 FG%) Finals?

And Russell was better at everything that Wallace was good at, like defense, rebounding, and shot-blocking.

I don't care about Russells stats. He played in the 60s when there was like 140 possessions per game. Every single team had some guy averaging 20+ RPG. If you want to go the stats route we'll compare them by possession.


Bill Russell 1961-62:

9.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in Wallace's 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

11.4 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.8 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his normal ~140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben Wallace 2002-03:

6.9 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.5 bpg in his normal 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

8.8 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.5 bpg in ~100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

13.9 ppg, 31.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 spg, 7.1 bpg in Russell's 140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

What we now conclude

Ben Wallace was a much better rebounder with the same possessions per game while Russell had a very small edge in scoring and assists. Are those miniscule advantages in scoring/passing enough to make Russell a top 10 player while Ben Wallace is a top 100 player? No ****ing way.

[Vienceslav]

So you are saying Bird is not a top 10 GOAT like Kobe isnt?
:eek:
And then there's this guy.

[KG215]

I don't care about Russells stats. He played in the 60s when there was like 140 possessions per game. Every single team had some guy averaging 20+ RPG. If you want to go the stats route we'll compare them by possession.


Bill Russell 1961-62:

9.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in Wallace's 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

11.4 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.8 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his normal ~140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben Wallace 2002-03:

6.9 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.5 bpg in his normal 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

8.8 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.5 bpg in ~100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

13.9 ppg, 31.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 spg, 7.1 bpg in Russell's 140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

What we now conclude

Ben Wallace was a much better rebounder with the same possessions per game while Russell had a very small edge in scoring and assists. Are those miniscule advantages in scoring/passing enough to make Russell a top 10 player while Ben Wallace is a top 100 player? No ****ing way.
You seem to have the inability to understand basketball is more about numbers/stats. It's why you seem to no be able to grasp LeBron isn't Jordan, and now why Ben Wallace isn't Bill Russell.

There's a mental aspect to the game (I think I've told you this probably 15 times now in the last week) and when you ignore that when discussion Bill Russell, and just focus on his stats, you're doing him a great disservice.

[TonyMontana]

You seem to have the inability to understand basketball is more about numbers/stats. It's why you seem to no be able to grasp LeBron isn't Jordan, and now why Ben Wallace isn't Bill Russell.

There's a mental aspect to the game (I think I've told you this probably 15 times now in the last week) and when you ignore that when discussion Bill Russell, and just focus on his stats, you're doing him a great disservice.

and what does this "mental aspect" accomplish? How are you measuring this

More wins?

**** outta here. Championships is about your competition and your team/teammates. We are talking about professional athletes who all have confidence, otherwise their not at that level.

I could put 2003 Ben Wallace on each of those Celtics championship teams instead of Russell and there would not be any significant differences. They would probably be even better defensively, although their offense might suffer a little bit.

[KG215]

and what does this "mental aspect" accomplish? How are you measuring this

More wins?

**** outta here. Championships is about your competition and your team/teammates. We are talking about professional athletes who all have confidence, otherwise their not at that level.

I could put 2003 Ben Wallace on each of those Celtics championship teams instead of Russell and there would not be any significant differences. They would probably be even better defensively, although their offense might suffer a little bit.
Confidence doesn't equal mental fortitude. Some players handle pressure better than others. Some players know what buttons to push and how to feel out the game to get the most out of themselves and their teammates. Some players are like great chess players in that hey can see 'X' number of moves ahead, and can see and feel things developing on the court other players can't see or feel. Some players seemingly always rise to the occasion. When it comes to the "invisible" side of basketball, the side that can't be judged and dissected by looking up stats on BBR, Bill Russell is arguably the best ever.

But sure, keep telling yourself that because their numbers are similar, Bill Russell was basically Ben Wallace and nothing would change if you replaced Russell with Wallace on those teams. It just tells me you've done absolutely zero research or reading on Russell.

[Doctor Rivers]

Why does everyone keep feeding the OP?

[TonyMontana]

Confidence doesn't equal mental fortitude. Some players handle pressure better than others. Some players know what buttons to push and how to feel out the game to get the most out of themselves and their teammates. Some players are like great chess players in that hey can see 'X' number of moves ahead, and can see and feel things developing on the court other players can't see or feel. Some players seemingly always rise to the occasion. When it comes to the "invisible" side of basketball, the side that can't be judged and dissected by looking up stats on BBR, Bill Russell is arguably the best ever.

But sure, keep telling yourself that because their numbers are similar, Bill Russell was basically Ben Wallace and nothing would change if you replaced Russell with Wallace on those teams. It just tells me you've done absolutely zero research or reading on Russell.

And how do you know what is going on inside the minds of these players?

Think you can tell from reading an article by some limpdick which is all opinionated to begin with? :oldlol:

Russells marginal scoring/passing doesn't make him 50x better than Ben Wallace(who was actually better on the boards if you look at the rebounding numbers).

It's not as much of a knock on Bill Russell as it is praise for Ben Wallace. From 02-04 he was playing at such an extremely high levels. I would take Ben Wallace from those years over a prime Kobe Bryant for comparisons sake. With these players I know none of them single handily is going to lead me to deep playoff runs. Both will be first round teams if I don't surround them with all-star talent.

But I will take Big Ben anchoring my defense and dominating the boards, while running all over the court over Kobes one dimensional ability to score from the guard position. If I want to win with Ben Wallace I have to surround him with some guys that can put the ball in the basket. guys like Billups and Rip Hamilton. If I want to win with Kobe I need a Prime first ballot hall of fame two-way playing bigman like Shaquille O'Neal(Prime Shaq is the most impactful force in basketball) or Pau Gasol coupled with other above average 7 footers like Bynum and Odom.

Which is easier to get, the Chauncy Billups of the basketball world or the Shaquille O'Neals?

problem with Ben Wallace is he didn't sustain that level of excellence for that long compared to Russell, but when your looking at each guy at their best the difference is minimal.

[KG215]

I think there's no possible way I could care any less about your basketball opinion, then you come through with something as ignorant as marginalizing Bill Russell's impact, and basically say you could replace him with Ben Wallace and see a similar amount of success from those Celtic teams in the '60's.

[KingLeBronJames]

Bird is top5, is Kobe top 10 ? No.
Kobe IS top 10. But that's just your opinion.

[Electric Slide]

They were generally bad because he had a bad back, his teammates were injured and he was being overplayed 40+ minutes in a conference where it was a dogfight to get to the finals. And Bird was a threat in numerous other ways when he wasn't scoring - elite rebounding and facilitating.
Bad back? Too bad he is fragile and while Kobe and Shaq weren't.

Everyone plays 40+ minutes a night, lame excuses.

Kobe and Shaq were just superior playoff performers.




Losing to the Sixers, Pistons and Lakers is no disgrace. Those were all-time great sides with comparable talent. The only so-so team (which was still a relatively good team) were the Bucks - who just had an amazing year.
Cool, he still lost as favorites and with HCA.


Arguing about HCA is just a Jordan-fan thing but it means nothing in an era of 4 truly all-time great teams. It just means you didn't win every year, which is hardly a crime.

It means you failed and disappointed.

Plus, it would be one thing if Bird played well and they lost, but generally he was the reason why they lost.

Btw, I do think Bird is better than Kobe as I stated earlier but he is not better than Shaq.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't care about Russells stats. He played in the 60s when there was like 140 possessions per game. Every single team had some guy averaging 20+ RPG. If you want to go the stats route we'll compare them by possession.


Bill Russell 1961-62:

9.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in Wallace's 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

11.4 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.8 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his normal ~140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben Wallace 2002-03:

6.9 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.5 bpg in his normal 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

8.8 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.5 bpg in ~100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

13.9 ppg, 31.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 spg, 7.1 bpg in Russell's 140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

What we now conclude

Ben Wallace was a much better rebounder with the same possessions per game while Russell had a very small edge in scoring and assists. Are those miniscule advantages in scoring/passing enough to make Russell a top 10 player while Ben Wallace is a top 100 player? No ****ing way.

Where in the name of hell are you getting 140 possessions in 1962?

The NBA averaged 63 rpg per team in '62 (after removing team rebounds, which were no longer counted after the 67-68 season), while they averaged 42 rpg in '03. Russell averaged 23.6 rpg in '62, Wallace 15.4 rpg in '03. Reduce Russell's rpg down to '03 levels, and he would have been at 15.8 rpg.

BTW, that was not Russell's greatest rebounding season, while it most certainly was Wallace's. In Russell's 63-64 season, he averaged 24.7 rpg, in 44.6 mpg, in a league that averaged 59 rpg. Which equates to 17.6 rpg in '03.

And no, apg would not double in Russell's era. In 2003 the NBA averaged 21.5 apg per team. In 1962 it was at 23.9.

And please, if you are going to use mpg against Russell, don't you think his rebounding efficiency (as well as his shooting) would have increased by only playing 40 mpg? Ignorant fans never take that into consideration when bashing Russell and Chamberlain.

As for scoring, there is no way Wallace's 6.9 ppg approaches Russell's 18.9 ppg in '62. The NBA in 03 averaged about 75% of the FGAs that it did in '62, and about 67% of the FTAs. Reduce Russell's scoring to '03 levels, and he still around 13 ppg. Then, factor in that in '03 the eFG% was at .474, compared to the '62 mark of .426, and the assumption is that Russell would have shot considerably higher in '03 than his .457 in '62, and probably would have added at least another ppg to his average.

[ILLsmak]

and what does this "mental aspect" accomplish? How are you measuring this

More wins?

**** outta here. Championships is about your competition and your team/teammates. We are talking about professional athletes who all have confidence, otherwise their not at that level.

I could put 2003 Ben Wallace on each of those Celtics championship teams instead of Russell and there would not be any significant differences. They would probably be even better defensively, although their offense might suffer a little bit.

You could run an offense through Bill even if he wasn't scoring. Wallace was an okay passer, but he wasn't going to be that team leader type. Billups was the leader of that team, Wallace was just in there to bang. Wallace is more comparable to Rodman.

-Smak

[TheBigVeto]

Then the GOAT list is invalid.

[chopchop20]

Ask Bird... he'll tell you that Kobe is better.

[knicksman]

top 10 GOATs
1. jordan 6 rings as the man
2. magic 4 rings as the man
3. duncan 4 rings as the man
4. shaq 3 rings as the man
5. russell i dont know how to rank him
6. kobe 2 rings as the man
7. kareem 2 rings as the man but kobe has better stats than him during the time they won their respective championships.
8. bird 2 rings as the man. He maybe the man in his 1st championship but he has the same stats as kobe in his 1st championship and kobe has 2 more rings
9. wilt 2 rings
10. hakeem

[chopchop20]

top 10 GOATs
1. jordan 6 rings as the man
2. magic 4 rings as the man
3. duncan 4 rings as the man
4. shaq 3 rings as the man
5. russell i dont know how to rank him
6. kobe 2 rings as the man
7. kareem 2 rings as the man but kobe has better stats than him during the time they won their respective championships.
8. bird 2 rings as the man. He maybe the man in his 1st championship but he has the same stats as kobe in his 1st championship and kobe has 2 more rings
9. wilt 2 rings
10. hakeem

No way in hell is Duncan ahead of Kareem

[LeBird]

Bad back? Too bad he is fragile and while Kobe and Shaq weren't.

Everyone plays 40+ minutes a night, lame excuses.

Kobe and Shaq were just superior playoff performers.

No, those explain the bad shooting nights. It doesn't mean he was a bad performer. Heck, in his last year he was putting up 20/10/7 statline. His injuries hurt him in the longevity stakes...but no matter how much Kobe plays he isn't on Bird's level. They're a different level of talent.


Cool, he still lost as favorites and with HCA.


Who cares? :confusedshrug:


It means you failed and disappointed.

No, it just means you didn't win all the time. Which frankly doesn't matter because no one has a perfect record.


Plus, it would be one thing if Bird played well and they lost, but generally he was the reason why they lost.

Btw, I do think Bird is better than Kobe as I stated earlier but he is not better than Shaq.

Bolded is an outright lie. No, Shaq was arguably better than Bird in his peak period, not over a whole career.


This muhfvcka had to bring Jordan into this by proxy. :facepalm

I've never seen a fan of an Old School player hate on Jordan as much as you. Usually, it's these young dumbasses who think the NBA started with Kobe and Lebron who hate on MJ, but you're up there with them.

Only Jordan fans care about HCA record. It's a non-stat designed to prop him up. It has gained popularity because of those debates. It's not that important. Whether you lose with or without it doesn't really matter...you lost.

When Orlando beat the Bulls did it matter that they had HCA? No, Orlando beat the Bulls in Chicago twice anyway.

[nosfan773]

Shit lets just name Kobe the best player of all time :confusedshrug:

[PickernRoller]

Shit lets just name Kobe the best player of all time :confusedshrug:

Not a bad idea.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You don't get bonus points for having back injuries :oldlol:

[PickernRoller]

You don't get bonus points for having back injuries :oldlol:

I though Kobe got bonus points for playing on one knee in 2010......or NOT.

[dh144498]

It's close, but Bird's PER 23.5 > Kobe's PER 23.4
so, objectively, Bird is greater than Kobe.

:lol

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[daily]

You don't get bonus points for having back injuries :oldlol:
This.

When discussing GOAT talent longevity plays a huge part in the players placement. Birds injury history alone takes him out of the running. He was a great played but still. He can't be compared to players of equal talent that played longer than he did

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I though Kobe got bonus points for playing on one knee in 2010......or NOT.

Nah he gets points for winning titles with only 1 HOF teammate. Kobe fans cite things that actually happened. Not mythical or potential accomplishments.

Nobody is going to be clamoring for extra credit because Kobe's achilles went out.

[nosfan773]

Nah he gets points for winning titles with only 1 HOF teammate. Kobe fans cite things that actually happened. Not mythical or potential accomplishments.

Nobody is going to be clamoring for extra credit because Kobe's achilles went out.

:kobe:

[Ron Jeremy]

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/stash-1-507dee67cc8d2.gif

[AlphaWolf24]

Because he shouldn't have won it over Bird who had an even more impressive series. One where he went toe-to-toe with Moses Malone and came within a handful of rebounds of outrebounding him.



Bird's man-to-man was OK. His team defending was superb.

---

Overall, Kobe is debatable top 10. Bird is debatable GOAT. Kobe's not on that tier.


http://i.minus.com/iQevM9pNZKiJu.gif

[dh144498]

lol... Kobe is debatable top 10.
:roll:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great joke :lol

Simply put Bird clearly had a better peak, better prime, more dominant, more impactful, better overall player, won 3 straight MVP's against better competition, better performances at the highest level, led the Celtics to 3 championships as the main man, turned a franchise around, made teams and teammates much better.

Kobe has two more championships but he played with prime Shaq, only thing really going for Kobe is maybe longevity but even so not nearly enough.

Bird is top5, Kobe is at the VERY best #8.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Great joke :lol

Simply put Bird clearly had a better peak, better prime, more dominant, more impactful, better overall player, won 3 straight MVP's against better competition, better performances at the highest level, led the Celtics to 3 championships as the main man, turned a franchise around, made teams and teammates much better.

Kobe has two more championships but he played with prime Shaq, only thing really going for Kobe is maybe longevity but even so not nearly enough.

Bird is top5, Kobe is at the VERY best #8.
Kareem played with Magic. But a lot of people consider him greater than Bird.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Great joke :lol

Simply put Bird clearly had a better peak, better prime, more dominant, more impactful, better overall player, won 3 straight MVP's against better competition, better performances at the highest level, led the Celtics to 3 championships as the main man, turned a franchise around, made teams and teammates much better.

Kobe has two more championships but he played with prime Shaq, only thing really going for Kobe is maybe longevity but even so not nearly enough.

Bird is top5, Kobe is at the VERY best #8.

Of course, you can put Bird in your top 5, but most folks do not.

Bill Russell
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic

are commonly top 5.