its funny how duncan fans are all saying "if duncan wins, hes better than kobe"

[kennethgriffin]

but we all know as soon as the spurs lose and duncan sticks with 4... theyel all be chirping about how duncan is better than kobe regardless

theyel quickly revert back to some other strategy that doesnt include total rings as the main basis for an argument. saying something like "well duncan has 2 mvps"


and we'l say "so does nash" blah blah blah... whatever fits a dumba**'s agenda...


fact is.... its about # of rings by modern day elite/mvp caliber players ( and you must win them as an elite top dog or co leader... not as a 3rd option 15ppg role player )

the only elite guys whos rings dont make up for most of their ranking are guys who won them back in the stone age

[SpurrDurr]

He's already better no matter what, silly.

And last time i checked 3 NBA finals MVP > 2 NBA finals MVP so your argument is totally wrong.

You devoting your life to prop up Kobe career shows how confident you are about his legacy.

[Electric Slide]

He already is better.

[TheBigVeto]

He's already better no matter what, silly.


This.
Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe
GOAT PF vs 2746th GOAT SG.

[bdreason]

Duncan is already above Kobe on the GOAT list. If he gets another ring, he climbs into the conversation with Magic and Bird.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

He's already better than Kobe.

But if he wins 1 more, it's as black and white clear cut as you can get.

[Zedja]

Because it's ****ing true you dipshit.

[TonyMontana]

fact is.... its about # of rings by modern day elite/mvp caliber players ( and you must win them as an elite top dog or co leader... not as a 3rd option 15ppg role player )
[B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[3LiftHeatCurse]

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[SCdac]

http://blog.lakers.com/lakers/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/lakers_si150.jpg

remember when Kobe could barely even take his team to the playoffs with a STACKED roster? :oldlol:

[stephanieg]

If you were gonna take one player for the first pick you'd take both Duncan and Shaq over Kobe.

[HardwoodLegend]

How old will you be when you finally decide to stop fighting tooth 'n nail in defense of Kobe's legacy?

I mean, for the love of the game, we would all hope that before we die we will see a handful of players pass or at least challenge Kobe's standing.

[kennethgriffin]

He's already better no matter what, silly.

And last time i checked 3 NBA finals MVP > 2 NBA finals MVP so your argument is totally wrong.

You devoting your life to prop up Kobe career shows how confident you are about his legacy.

and last time i checked

kobe beat duncan 4 times in the playoffs. duncan only beat kobe 2 times

kobe won more titles

kobe has more all nba 1st teams

kobe has more defensive 1st teams

kobe has a better average

kobe has more total points

kobe has more game winning shots

kobe has duncans career high by half time

kobe has the sports illustrated player of the decade award

kobe has the sporting news player of the decade award

kobe has the tnt player of the decade award

kobe has the dime magazine player of the decade award

kobe has more 60 point games than duncan has 50 point games

kobe has more 50 point games than duncan has 40 point games

kobe has more 40 point games than duncan has 30 point games

kobe has a higher average as a 21 year old than duncans ever had in his entire life

kobes a three peat champion......... duncan never did it

kobes a repeat champion........duncan never even did that

kobe went to 3 straight finals .........TWICE.... duncan never even went to 2 straight finals once

duncan hasnt been his teams best player since 2007

duncan isnt even his teams 2nd best player in the finals this year





sorry bro... 15ppg is something kobe averaged as a 6th man... duncan does it in a staring role...

that doesnt cut it



5 titles and 7 finals > 4 titles in 5 finals

duncan never had the pressure of the media/fans on his shoulders. duncans had a care free career of obscurity

hes never had the type of expectations kobes had


he never had the bottom feeders best shot all year. the crap teams didnt mark the spurs on their calender like they did with the lakers



the spurs and duncan were an afterthought and they took advantage of it. duncan coasted on other peoples success



kobe bryant would never!... ever be a 2nd banana to tony parker...

only to the most dominant prime physical specimen ... shaq


thats the only guy who could outperform kobe. even while kobe was averaging 29ppg in the 2001 playoffs


kobes never been as insignificant as duncans been offensively over the past 7 years


not since he was a 2nd year 6th man


sit down before ya fall down sucka

[KG215]

He's not been just some "15 PPG 3rd option role player' in the playoffs. And although his offensive numbers haven't been great, his overall impact would still put him in the top 2 on his team in the Finals. But, when you take the entire playoffs into account, he's clearly been one of the Spurs two best players.

I swear the OP has already made this thread 2 or 3 other times since the Finals started.

[Artillery]

fact is.... its about # of rings by modern day elite/mvp caliber players ( and you must win them as an elite top dog or co leader... not as a 3rd option 15ppg role player )

the only elite guys whos rings dont make up for most of their ranking are guys who won them back in the stone age

If you're not counting a potential 2013 ring for Duncan then Kobe's 2000 ring should be voided:

Kobe averaged 15.6 ppg in the 2000 Finals on 36% shooting
Duncan's averaging 15.6 ppg in the 2013 Finals on 46% shooting

Even more impressive for Duncan since he's 37 years old and playing against the 66 win defending champs(with an excellent 7.03 SRS rating). The 2000 Lakers played the 56 win Pacers(only a mediocre SRS of 4.16) and Kobe still played like shit in the Finals.

[mugiwara]

The fact the at duncan has won throughout the years with different teams being the one constant player i find very impressive, you could argue it to be pop.. very easy you could argue that but id say winning five championships as a vital piece (assuming they win this year) between 1999 and 2013 is absolutely incredible.

[Magic 32]

Kobe Bryant’s 2000 NBA Finals averages (5 games):

15.6 points per game

4.3 rebounds per game

4.2 assists per game

44.2 minutes per game

41.25 field goal percentage

:no: :no: :no:

Lebron is in his prime.

And the last time I checked, his ankle is not sprained.

http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/2251/b7c91ada3f3a40359206ac70ac4e8f6f.gif

[ripthekik]

i have no problem putting duncan above kobe if he wins this year. What's the big deal anyways, Kobe is still safe in the top 10.

While that other guy drops way out :roll: :roll: :roll:

[kennethgriffin]

If you're not counting a potential 2013 ring for Duncan then Kobe's 2000 ring should be voided:

Kobe averaged 15.6 ppg in the 2000 Finals on 36% shooting
Duncan's averaging 15.6 ppg in the 2013 Finals on 46% shooting

Even more impressive for Duncan since he's 37 years old and playing against the 66 win defending champs(with an excellent 7.03 SRS rating). The 2000 Lakers played the 56 win Pacers(only a mediocre SRS of 4.16) and Kobe still played like shit in the Finals.


kobes 2000 average isnt even valid due to missing an entire game due to injury.. and coming out of another game after the 1st 2 minutes


i look at playoff averages... especially since the early 2000's was all about the western confrence. the nba finals was a joke back in the day. the lakers had a harder time in round 1 vs sacramento with a 5 game series

[KG215]

and last time i checked

kobe beat duncan 4 times in the playoffs. duncan only beat kobe 2 times

kobe won more titles

kobe has more all nba 1st teams

kobe has more defensive 1st teams

kobe has a better average

kobe has more total points

kobe has more game winning shots

kobe has duncans career high by half time

kobe has the sports illustrated player of the decade award

kobe has the sporting news player of the decade award

kobe has the tnt player of the decade award

kobe has the dime magazine player of the decade award

kobe has more 60 point games than duncan has 50 point games

kobe has more 50 point games than duncan has 40 point games

kobe has more 40 point games than duncan has 30 point games

kobe has a higher average as a 21 year old than duncans ever had in his entire life

kobes a three peat champion......... duncan never did it

kobes a repeat champion........duncan never even did that

kobe went to 3 straight finals .........TWICE.... duncan never even went to 2 straight finals once
Some of these things are very subjective and really don't mean shit. But it's you, so it's not a surprise.


duncan isnt even his teams 2nd best player in the finals this year
Yeah, let's just ignore his defensive impact.


sorry bro... 15ppg is something kobe averaged as a 6th man... duncan does it in a staring role...
This is such flawed reasoning but, again, it's you, so I'm not surprised. Why does it matter their team role in the Finals if they both average 15 PPG? And Kobe wasn't the 6th Man in 2000, he started all 22 playoff games he played.


5 titles and 7 finals > 4 titles in 5 finals
And 3 Finals MVPs > 2 Finals MVPs. See how easy that is? Not to mention he was still the Spurs best player throughout the entire 2007 playoff run.


duncan never had the pressure of the media/fans on his shoulders. duncans had a care free career of obscurity
So what? What does that have to do with judging who the better player is between the two?


hes never had the type of expectations kobes had
Again, so what?


he never had the bottom feeders best shot all year. the crap teams didnt mark the spurs on their calender like they did with the lakers
And, for the third and last time, so what? What does this have to do with anything? How does something like this mean, Kobe > Duncan ??

the spurs and duncan were an afterthought and they took advantage of it. duncan coasted on other peoples success


kobes never been as insignificant as duncans been offensively over the past 7 years
There's two sides to the floor.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/did%20not%20read/grand/09379919did_not_read.gif

[KG215]

kobes 2000 average isnt even valid due to missing an entire game due to injury.. and coming out of another game after the 1st 2 minutes


i look at playoff averages... especially since the early 2000's was all about the western confrence. the nba finals was a joke back in the day. the lakers had a harder time in round 1 vs sacramento with a 5 game series
So basically you just move the goalposts to fit your agenda. Got it.

[Chicago Ted]

and last time i checked
...yadda yadda kobe is the man...


And still no coach in the world would pick Kobe over Duncan in his primes.
Dude it's ok if you like kobe (its a bit disturbing that you like him that much but who am i to judge) but you have to understand thet there's nothing wrong if you fav player is not the best ever (or the top 5 ever or wathever).

[SpurrDurr]

While in 2000 Shaq carried a 15 ppg Kobe to the title, the year before Duncan averaged 27 ppg with 14 rebounds, who's the leech?

And all the awards you mentioned are totally irrelevant, give me the player that won more finals and regular season mvps and carried a small franchise to 14th seasons with more than 50 wins.

[KOBE143]

Duncan is the 4th best player in his team.. If he wins, his ring is comparable to Horry.. Nothing special.. He's just ring padding like Horry.. Empty ring..

[crisoner]

Check Kobe vs Duncan's numbers and records vs. each other in the playoffs.

You're Welcome....Kobe wins.

[SpurrDurr]

Check Kobe vs Duncan's numbers and records vs. each other in the playoffs.

You're Welcome....Kobe wins.

Duncan should have asked on draft night to be traded to LA i guess :confusedshrug:

[Artillery]

kobes 2000 average isnt even valid due to missing an entire game due to injury.. and coming out of another game after the 1st 2 minutes

Duncan's 37 and has two bad knees and still scored the same amount of points per game on better efficiency than Kobe. Your excuses are laughable.



i look at playoff averages... especially since the early 2000's was all about the western confrence. the nba finals was a joke back in the day. the lakers had a harder time in round 1 vs sacramento with a 5 game series

Duncan's 2013 playoff PER: 19.8
Kobe's 2000 playoff PER: 19.3

Duncan's 2013 playoff WS/48: .138
Kobe's 2000 playoff WS/48: .115

[Artillery]

Check Kobe vs Duncan's numbers and records vs. each other in the playoffs.

You're Welcome....Kobe wins.

Nash and D'antoni are 2-0 against Kobe and Phil Jackson. Great argument, brah.

[kennethgriffin]

Nash and D'antoni are 2-0 against Kobe and Phil Jackson. Great argument, brah.


kobe beat great spurs teams

nash and d'antoni beat kwame and smush


you're argument is just about as dumb as lebron james saying jud buechler's rings are just as valuable as bill russells

[TheWalkman]

oh sh!t, kenneth having a meltdown????

[SpurrDurr]

oh sh!t, kenneth having a meltdown????

He's turning into the biggest Lebron fan :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nope, they are being modest. Apparently Duncan is already better than Kobe with or without his 5th ring, with his upcoming he'd be chasing and possibly surpassing Shaq. You cant surpass someone behind you.
:rolleyes:

[Artillery]

kobe beat great spurs teams

Kobe had prime Shaq.
Duncan had Derek Anderson.

Definitely an even matchup.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe had prime Shaq.
Duncan had Derek Anderson.

Definitely an even matchup.


david robinson was the spurs 2nd best player in 2001 and 2002... he averaging a near double double each time with 14-15ppg and great defense

tony parker and manu ginobili were great players in 2004 and 2008

[SpurrDurr]

david robinson was the spurs 2nd best player in 2001 and 2002... he averaging a near double double each time with 14-15ppg and great defense

tony parker and manu ginobili were great players in 2004 and 2008

So are Howard, Nash and Gasol, what happened? :(

[YAWN]

They're pretty close. Kobe has had more elite level seasons than Duncan, so that's his case over him.

Kobe still had another year or two of elite level ball before the injury which is where he would clearly separate himself from Shaq/Duncan. But not sure if thats gonna happen anymore.

kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 15x all nba, 12x all d, 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 14x all nba, 13x all d
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, 3x all d, 2x scoring champ


[QUOTE=TonyMontana][B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[kobeef24]

Why do you even care who ranks higher all time? They're right next to each other and an argument can be made for both. They're both top 10 all time players. Just admire both their careers. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[Ass Dan]

What is funnier is that Kobe fans don't understand that this is already the case...

[chopchop20]

and last time i checked

kobe beat duncan 4 times in the playoffs. duncan only beat kobe 2 times

kobe won more titles

kobe has more all nba 1st teams

kobe has more defensive 1st teams

kobe has a better average

kobe has more total points

kobe has more game winning shots

kobe has duncans career high by half time

kobe has the sports illustrated player of the decade award

kobe has the sporting news player of the decade award

kobe has the tnt player of the decade award

kobe has the dime magazine player of the decade award

kobe has more 60 point games than duncan has 50 point games

kobe has more 50 point games than duncan has 40 point games

kobe has more 40 point games than duncan has 30 point games

kobe has a higher average as a 21 year old than duncans ever had in his entire life

kobes a three peat champion......... duncan never did it

kobes a repeat champion........duncan never even did that

kobe went to 3 straight finals .........TWICE.... duncan never even went to 2 straight finals once

duncan hasnt been his teams best player since 2007

duncan isnt even his teams 2nd best player in the finals this year





sorry bro... 15ppg is something kobe averaged as a 6th man... duncan does it in a staring role...

that doesnt cut it



5 titles and 7 finals > 4 titles in 5 finals

duncan never had the pressure of the media/fans on his shoulders. duncans had a care free career of obscurity

hes never had the type of expectations kobes had


he never had the bottom feeders best shot all year. the crap teams didnt mark the spurs on their calender like they did with the lakers



the spurs and duncan were an afterthought and they took advantage of it. duncan coasted on other peoples success



kobe bryant would never!... ever be a 2nd banana to tony parker...

only to the most dominant prime physical specimen ... shaq


thats the only guy who could outperform kobe. even while kobe was averaging 29ppg in the 2001 playoffs


kobes never been as insignificant as duncans been offensively over the past 7 years


not since he was a 2nd year 6th man


sit down before ya fall down sucka

Epic... just drop the mic and walk of the stage like Rany Watson in "Coming to America".

Nothing else really left to say. Mamba > Timmie

[chopchop20]

They're pretty close. Kobe has had more elite level seasons than Duncan, so that's his case over him.

Kobe still had another year or two of elite level ball before the injury which is where he would clearly separate himself from Shaq/Duncan. But not sure if thats gonna happen anymore.

kobe - 5 rings, 2 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 15x all nba, 12x all d, 2x scoring champ
duncan - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 2 mvps, 13x all star, 14x all nba, 13x all d
shaq - 4 rings, 3 finals mvps, 1 mvp, 15x all star, 14x all nba, 3x all d, 2x scoring champ




These don't seem like role player numbers to me.. :confusedshrug:

kobe 1999-2000
23/6/5 Regular Season
21/5/4 Playoffs

kobe 2000-2001
29/6/5 Regular Season
29/7/6 Playoffs

kobe 2001-2002
25/6/6 Regular Season
27/6/5 Playoffs

kobe 2002-2003
30/7/6 Regular Season
32/5/5 Playoffs

Neither does Duncan this year 18/10 is nothing to sneeze at.

Kobe and Shaq averaged 30 each in the playoffs. No duo has done that. Haters are just retarded with this 2nd option crap.

[chopchop20]

Some of these things are very subjective and really don't mean shit. But it's you, so it's not a surprise.


Yeah, let's just ignore his defensive impact.


This is such flawed reasoning but, again, it's you, so I'm not surprised. Why does it matter their team role in the Finals if they both average 15 PPG? And Kobe wasn't the 6th Man in 2000, he started all 22 playoff games he played.


And 3 Finals MVPs > 2 Finals MVPs. See how easy that is? Not to mention he was still the Spurs best player throughout the entire 2007 playoff run.


So what? What does that have to do with judging who the better player is between the two?


Again, so what?


And, for the third and last time, so what? What does this have to do with anything? How does something like this mean, Kobe > Duncan ??

the spurs and duncan were an afterthought and they took advantage of it. duncan coasted on other peoples success


There's two sides to the floor.

Obviously never watched Kobe play defense in the playoffs before

[SuperPippen]

For reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam, Duncan is already a greater player than Kobe. A 5th ring places him legitimately within the top 5 discussion.

[ripthekik]

Again, who cares. Both are cemented in the top 10. Before duncan wins his 5th, they are interchangeable depending on your values and opinion. The exact spot doesn't matter that much. Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem are all in top 10 and that's all that matters.

[dbk123]

duncan isnt really doing shit these finals so id say he isnt ahead of kobe, regardless if he wins or loses

[PickernRoller]

OP too insecure. Time to stop posting.

[Carbine]

You guys are a bunch of idiots.

Duncan the 4th best player on his team? My god....

He was 1st team All-NBA this year. He's easily the most important player to that team on the defensive side of the ball, and is their second option on offense to Tony Parker.

[booonkers]

You guys are a bunch of idiots.

Duncan the 4th best player on his team? My god....

He was 1st team All-NBA this year. He's easily the most important player to that team on the defensive side of the ball, and is their second option on offense to Tony Parker.

Yeah seriously, can we just put all anti-Duncan propaganda in one thread? These stupid posts are giving me a headache. :biggums:

[missionman]

well, this is a forum and if there weren't this sort of debate about players by their faithful fans, what would there be to talk about?

I actually think this is an interesting debate because i never would have thought to compare these two guys (its always LBJ vs. Kobe vs. Jordan for GOAT's on this forum)

SOmeone above talked about if whether coaches would pick which player in their primes. I think if i had to now, knowing what i know now, I'd have to take Duncan. Sure he doesn't have the flashiest of offensive stats, but defensively he's on another level.

And the best case for Duncan, i think is the winning record of the Spurs all these years (an argument that someone put up above as well). I believe that Duncan is TRULY a player who has made the other players around him better. Not in the way that Jordan did necessarily, but in a different way.

For example: by doing whatever needed to be done to get the team to win; by letting other players shine; by not demanding the ball all the time; by not being a prima donna; i imagine, by being a leader on and off the floor; by encouraging team cohesion (sure i speculate about this, but i've never read about duncan complaining about his teammates); by playing D when that is not the 'look at me' thing to do.

Even at the age of 37 I love his hustle up an down the floor in these finals. Guy doesn't give up on either end.

So yeah, with all the other things that Duncan has brought to the table, as a coach I think I take Duncan over Bryant.

(as an owner, I might take Kobe though - definitely more marketable).

[Frozen1]

There aren't duncan fans in this board. Only kobe haters.

[Ca$H]

So basically you just move the goalposts to fit your agenda. Got it.

I think that it is unfair to blame Kobe since Jalen Rose admitted he injured him on purpose. Kobe barley played in one game so obviously that will ruin his average.

[DMAVS41]

What finals are you morons watching? Duncan has been the best player on the Spurs....or at least top 2.

He's giving the Spurs 17/10/3 in the playoffs...and while his efficiency is down, his defense has been tremendous. He destroyed Gasol and Randolph last round and is again doing an excellent job all over the court for the Spurs.

Hilarious really...

[ieballer3]

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What finals are you morons watching? Duncan has been the best player on the Spurs....or at least top 2.

He's giving the Spurs 17/10/3 in the playoffs...and while his efficiency is down, his defense has been tremendous. He destroyed Gasol and Randolph last round and is again doing an excellent job all over the court for the Spurs.

Hilarious really...

You argument has no merit and to prove it I'm going to cite statistics that have nothing to do with it.

Finals does not equal "playoffs" or "last round".

[TonyMontana]

:no: :no: :no:

These stats are skewed due to kobe hardly playing in game two -- the game Jalen Rose intentionally injured Kobe in the first quarter. Using his total stats for that finals, per 42 min, Kobe averages:

19pts/6reb/5ast/1.2 st/1.7 blk and only 1.4 to/gm. Not too shabby...

Granted, on a poor shooting percentage but still an improvement and much more accurate than your stats. Obviously, Kobe played hurt after game two and that severely affected his athleticism (ankle injury) which was a big part of his game at the time (21 yo).

On another note, when talking about the 2000 finals, many seem to forget game four which was the most important game of the series. Kobe took over the end of the game and basically sealed the series for the Lakers. If you watched the game, you would know that he played through the injury and struggled to make basketball moves throughout the game. He still shot 14/27 with no ft attempts (could hardly drive) and took over when it mattered (when Shaq fouled out). For this game alone, Kobe had a memorable series.

It's easy to throw this year out for Kobe but without him, not only do they most likely fail in the 2000 finals but would fail to even advance to them. Shaq played like a man possessed but kobe was vital to the team's success.

Back to the topic, whether the spurs win or lose this series, I consider Kobe and Duncan very close career wise. But it's not over and I wouldn't bet against Kobe making a run or two of his own so it remains to be seen.

The stats are not skewed. Kobe averaged 44 MPG with the stats I gave(well above what a starter should be playing)

Kobe is exactly what the OP said doesn't count in regards to rings...a 15 PPG role player. Just using his own logic against him. No need to get butthurt Kobestan.

[tpols]

I love duncans hustle and leadership and the way he's transformed his game..but let's be real spurs offense is predicated on manu and parker driving and their role players hitting three a at an all time great level..scratch that the best 3 pt shooting long range assault of all time.

Their defensive plan involves danny green and kawhi leanord giving lebron and wade 5 feet of space to make them shoot and staying in front/bodying them when they enter the paint. Duncan has been great protecting the rim but it is a concerted team effort by 3-4 players at a time packing the paint and putting bodies between the rim and Miami's slashers. It isn't just Duncan playing great d its everyone. Kawhis been spectacular as has green with his timely amazing transition d.. even diaw has been able to guard Bron on an island because of pops plan which involves letting him shoot and bodying him on drives.

Duncan is supplemental scoring on low efficiency and his man d hasn't been impressive while his help has.overall he's playing at a low caliber all-star level in this finals.and that's all that's necessary with their perimeter scoring attack and great perimeter defense

[lakerfreak]

He's a great player that had the perfect coach. Its hard to argue that anyone would have done better for the spurs.
At the same time, its hard to argue that anyone else could have done better than Kobe with his role on the lakers the past however many years since Shaq left.


Two NBA players who both had such great success. In a draft, if I ended up with any of those two, why would there be any disappointment?

[CJ Mustard]

Duncan isn't chasing Kobe, Kobe's chasing Duncan. :lol And it will be pretty tough for him to catch up on that torn achilles.

[Carbine]

It's not predicated on Manu.

He hasn't given them really much of anything all playoffs yet still found themselves 2-2 in the finals before he went off and was vintage Manu.

The offense is Parkers, he's the first option. He's the one initiating the offense and making things happen. Duncan supports that by being a second option. Everyone else feeds of those two in the half court.

On the other end it's Duncans team...Parker is rarely a factor.

Depending on what you value, you could argue either one of them as the more (though only slightly) valuable player.

[lakerfreak]

Duncan isn't chasing Kobe, Kobe's chasing Duncan. :lol And it will be pretty tough for him to catch up on that torn achilles.

A guy with more rings is chasing a guy with less rings?

Interesting.

[TonyMontana]

A guy with more rings is chasing a guy with less rings?

Interesting.

Both are chasing Robert Horry? :confusedshrug:

[CJ Mustard]

A guy with more rings is chasing a guy with less rings?

Interesting.
Duncan didn't have Shaq to carry him to 3 rings. Duncan has more MVP's, more Finals MVP's, and more rings as the best player. :oldlol: He's got Kobe beat in everything that matters.

[tpols]

It's not predicated on Manu.

He hasn't given them really much of anything all playoffs yet still found themselves 2-2 in the finals before he went off and was vintage Manu.

The offense is Parkers, he's the first option. He's the one initiating the offense and making things happen. Duncan supports that by being a second option. Everyone else feeds of those two in the half court.

On the other end it's Duncans team...Parker is rarely a factor.

Depending on what you value, you could argue either one of them as the more (though only slightly) valuable player.
Parker and manu control the rock..manus been a poor scorer and at times has looked terrible but he still initiated the offense every time up the floor and if the spurs don't score on a variety of pnr passing swinging the ball manu isos or parker isos. Overall they control the pace and flow.

And of course spurs are winning this series with their offense-->insane three pt shooting more so than they are with their d. Every game for the most part has been back and forth non stop scoring until one team goes on a tear. Just how its been.

Duncan's been great in his role but he isn't a driving force in this series.. far from it. He has Tyson Chandler level impact with more points on lower efficiency..so or pretty much cancels out. He's the main screen setter interior rebounder and defender with less finishing ability but better Iso/passing in small doses.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Duncan didn't have Shaq to carry him to 3 rings. Duncan has more MVP's, more Finals MVP's, and more rings as the best player. :oldlol: He's got Kobe beat in everything that matters.

Because "help" in the form of record shooting role players don't count. :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

I love duncans hustle and leadership and the way he's transformed his game..but let's be real spurs offense is predicated on manu and parker driving and their role players hitting three a at an all time great level..scratch that the best 3 pt shooting long range assault of all time.

Their defensive plan involves danny green and kawhi leanord giving lebron and wade 5 feet of space to make them shoot and staying in front/bodying them when they enter the paint. Duncan has been great protecting the rim but it is a concerted team effort by 3-4 players at a time packing the paint and putting bodies between the rim and Miami's slashers. It isn't just Duncan playing great d its everyone. Kawhis been spectacular as has green with his timely amazing transition d.. even diaw has been able to guard Bron on an island because of pops plan which involves letting him shoot and bodying him on drives.

Duncan is supplemental scoring on low efficiency and his man d hasn't been impressive while his help has.overall he's playing at a low caliber all-star level in this finals.and that's all that's necessary with their perimeter scoring attack and great perimeter defense

Meh. Hope you take the same approach to Parker's games 2, 3, and 4...where he was subpar and then brings nothing to the table defensively.

And Manu was important last night, but that was his first good game in quite some time. The Spurs are definitely not predicated on Manu...Parker for sure, but not Manu.

[DMAVS41]

Because "help" in the form of record shooting role players don't count. :oldlol:

Duncan is currently giving the Spurs more in this series than Kobe did in 00. Simple as that.

So STFU and find another way to discredit Duncan please.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Duncan is currently giving the Spurs more in this series than Kobe did in 00. Simple as that.

So STFU and find another way to discredit Duncan please.

So is it individual performance that matters or is help that matters? Is it just superstar help that matters? Hall of fame help? Remember when you were claiming a few weeks ago that Bosh>Odom because Odom filled his role better. Are we supposed to ignore that now that Green has literally filled his role better than anybody in Finals history?

[DMAVS41]

So is it individual performance that matters or is help that matters? Is it just superstar help that matters? Hall of fame help? Remember when you were claiming a few weeks ago that Bosh>Odom because Odom filled his role better. Are we supposed to ignore that now that Green has literally filled his role better than anybody in Finals history?

What are you arguing? Who is saying Duncan isn't getting great help from Green?

All I said was that Duncan is currently a better player in this finals than Kobe was in the 00 finals. Which is just objectively true with Kobe missing time and being hurt and not being an elite player yet.

Has nothing to do with help. Current Duncan is just better than 00 Kobe in the finals. Simple as that.

This would clearly be a situation in which Duncan is not as impressive as he was in his other title years. But you lose me when you say it doesn't count.

How many big shots did Fisher and Horry make to bail out Kobe/Shaq? How many times to Shaq bailout Kobe? Do those rings not count?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you arguing? Who is saying Duncan isn't getting great help from Green?

All I said was that Duncan is currently a better player in this finals than Kobe was in the 00 finals. Which is just objectively true with Kobe missing time and being hurt and not being an elite player yet.

Has nothing to do with help. Current Duncan is just better than 00 Kobe in the finals. Simple as that.

This would clearly be a situation in which Duncan is not as impressive as he was in his other title years. But you lose me when you say it doesn't count.

How many big shots did Fisher and Horry make to bail out Kobe/Shaq? How many times to Shaq bailout Kobe? Do those rings not count?

No one said otherwise. I don't know where you ever got the impression that Kobe fans don't view his first title differently than his other 4. The following season he averaged 30 points a game in route to a title. He was a full blown superstar.

Show me a comparable role player "blowing up" since 00 in a playoff series for the Lakers and I'd love to see it. Supporting shooters since 00 for the Lakers have been frankly mediocre.

[DMAVS41]

No one said otherwise. I don't know where you ever got the impression that Kobe fans don't view his first title differently than his other 4. The following season he averaged 30 points a game in route to a title. He was a full blown superstar.

Show me a comparable role player "blowing up" since 00 in a playoff series for the Lakers and I'd love to see it. Supporting shooters since 00 for the Lakers have been frankly mediocre.

It's not about the help. You keep talking to me like I'm trying to downplay Green. Not at all. He's been amazing. I just told you I think he would win finals mvp right now if the voting took place today.

I'm simply equating Duncan's playoff run this year to Kobe's in 00. Very similar in terms of impact in my opinion...would actually give Duncan a slight edge because of his superior finals, but Kobe also had big and key moments in the finals as well.

And I never compared current Duncan to 01 Kobe. I am simply refuting your notion that this ring doesn't count. Which you just admitted in a different thread that you were just saying that and you don't actually believe it.

So I don't know what your issue is.

[chopchop20]

Duncan is currently giving the Spurs more in this series than Kobe did in 00. Simple as that.

So STFU and find another way to discredit Duncan please.

Laughable.... but you think it's true because it's based 100% on your imagination.

[DMAVS41]

Laughable.... but you think it's true because it's based 100% on your imagination.

Explain why.

In a 6 game series.

Kobe;

Missed a game due to injury
Played 9 minutes in another game
The last 2 games combined to shoot 12 of 47 from the field and had a 4/20 game in which he had a negative game score

He had two awful games. Two games in which he basically did not play. 1 average/below average game of 14/5/3. And then 1 really good game of 28/5/4 in which he came through late.

I want to know how it is even comparable. I can't believe people actually think Kobe was better in the 00 finals. Why?

[KG215]

Explain why.

In a 6 game series.

Kobe;

Missed a game due to injury
Played 9 minutes in another game
The last 2 games combined to shoot 12 of 47 from the field and had a 4/20 game in which he had a negative game score

He had two awful games. Two games in which he basically did not play. 1 average/below average game of 14/5/3. And then 1 really good game of 28/5/4 in which he came through late.

I want to know how it is even comparable. I can't believe people actually think Kobe was better in the 00 finals. Why?
To be fair, the only people I think that actually say and believe that are delusional Kobe fanboys.

[chopchop20]

Explain why.

In a 6 game series.

Kobe;

Missed a game due to injury
Played 9 minutes in another game
The last 2 games combined to shoot 12 of 47 from the field and had a 4/20 game in which he had a negative game score

He had two awful games. Two games in which he basically did not play. 1 average/below average game of 14/5/3. And then 1 really good game of 28/5/4 in which he came through late.

I want to know how it is even comparable. I can't believe people actually think Kobe was better in the 00 finals. Why?

Kobe essentially played the Tony Parker role during that stretch, in addition to being the best defender on the team.

Yet you want to make a direct comparison to the secondary role that Duncan is playing now. It's absurd.

Not to mention how you conveniently left off the fact that Kobe actually won a game in OT, when Shaq fouled out. Lemme guess, Shaq was carrying him from the bench

[KyleKong]

He already is better.

This.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[DMAVS41]

Kobe essentially played the Tony Parker role during that stretch, in addition to being the best defender on the team.

Yet you want to make a direct comparison to the secondary role that Duncan is playing now. It's absurd.

Not to mention how you conveniently left off the fact that Kobe actually won a game in OT, when Shaq fouled out. Lemme guess, Shaq was carrying him from the bench

I didn't leave out the OT game. I talked about it...said Kobe came through late.

This is hilarious. Kobe was far more secondary than Duncan is now. Kobe was not playing anywhere near the kind of defense Duncan does...or at least not the same impact. And he ****ing missed two games essentially and was awful in another 2. So he basically had 2 games out of 6 in which he wasn't just a negative or irrelevant. One of them being a 14/5/3 game. Hahahahaha.

Just ****ing hilarious. It never ceases to amaze me. Never...it's like you people live in a different world.

[chopchop20]

It's not about the help. You keep talking to me like I'm trying to downplay Green. Not at all. He's been amazing. I just told you I think he would win finals mvp right now if the voting took place today.

I'm simply equating Duncan's playoff run this year to Kobe's in 00. Very similar in terms of impact in my opinion...would actually give Duncan a slight edge because of his superior finals, but Kobe also had big and key moments in the finals as well.

And I never compared current Duncan to 01 Kobe. I am simply refuting your notion that this ring doesn't count. Which you just admitted in a different thread that you were just saying that and you don't actually believe it.

So I don't know what your issue is.

You're one of those type of cats that likes to take small slice of the overall data and frame it in a way to support your subjective argument. But you steer far away from objective arguments because all you that you have is opinions.

You won't dare to argue the objective truth that Kobe is 4 -2 vs Duncan in Playoffs (4 - 1 with Phil as coach). I mean after, isn't that one of the best indicators of judging opponents -- when everything is on the line?

You don't wanna put those stats... from those 6 series up

You don't wanna show all those clips on Youtube of Kobe busting up the Spurs in the playoffs

You have no explanations of where Duncan was this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_wKwanldc

Naw, you wanna cling to little pieces of less definitive data... or when that doesn't work, you like to impose arbitrary standards on what actually happened like the so-called "the man" principle. It gives you a way to discredit or to frame the situation to support another one of your baseless opinions.

Kobe kicked Duncan's butt head-to-head... but Duncan was "the man". And so it goes around and round in circles

[KG215]

You're one of those type of cats that likes to take small slice of the overall data and frame it in a way to support your subjective argument. But you steer far away from objective arguments because all you that you have is opinions.

You won't dare to argue the objective truth that Kobe is 4 -2 vs Duncan in Playoffs (4 - 1 with Phil as coach). I mean after, isn't that one of the best indicators of judging opponents -- when everything is on the line?

You don't wanna put those stats... from those 6 series up

You don't wanna show all those clips on Youtube of Kobe busting up the Spurs in the playoffs

You have no explanations of where Duncan was this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_wKwanldc

Naw, you wanna cling to little pieces of less definitive data... or when that doesn't work, you like to impose arbitrary standards on what actually happened like the so-called "the man" principle. It gives you a way to discredit or to frame the situation to support another one of your baseless opinions.

Kobe kicked Duncan's butt head-to-head... but Duncan was "the man". And so it goes around and round in circles
The f**k are you rambling on about now? I'm pretty sure his only point is to distill the absurd notion that Kobe was more impactful in the 2000 Finals than Duncan has been in the 2013 Finals. Like he said, Kobe essentially missed 2 games in that series, was really bad in two others, decent in one, and really good in one during the series.

Unless I missed something, I think he's only looking at 2000 Finals Kobe vs. 2013 Finals Duncan.

[Carbine]

Kareem is lucky there wasn't message boards around in the back end of his career.

He averaged 13 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist in '88 finals

He averaged 21.5, 7ish rebounds and less than 1 assist per game in the '87 finals.

While Magic & Worthy averaged:

Magic:

21 points, 13 assists and 7 boards on 55 percent shooting in '88 finals
26 points, 13 assists and 8 boards on 54 percent shooting in '87 finals

Worthy:

22 points, 3 assists, 7.5 boards on 50 percent shooting in '88 finals
20.5 points, 4 assists and 6 boards on 52 percent footing in '87 finals.

[chopchop20]

The f**k are you rambling on about now? I'm pretty sure his only point is to distill the absurd notion that Kobe was more impactful in the 2000 Finals than Duncan has been in the 2013 Finals. Like he said, Kobe essentially missed 2 games in that series, was really bad in two others, decent in one, and really good in one during the series.

Unless I missed something, I think he's only looking at 2000 Finals Kobe vs. 2013 Finals Duncan.

But why is looking at that? To frame an argument that will support opinion.

Again doesn't want to look at the the entire picture and definitely doesn't want to discuss more decisive facts.

[KG215]

But why is looking at that? To frame an argument that will support opinion.

Again doesn't want to look at the the entire picture and definitely doesn't want to discuss more decisive facts.
You're trying to create something that's not there. I don't think he ever intended to argue anything other than 2000 Finals Kobe vs. 2013 Finals Duncan. I don't think he's framing anything out of context to support an opinion. I'm 99.9% certain his entire argument in this thread is predicated on the idea that Kobe was less important and impactful in the 2000 Finals than Duncan has been in the 2013 Finals.

[Leviathon1121]

You're one of those type of cats that likes to take small slice of the overall data and frame it in a way to support your subjective argument. But you steer far away from objective arguments because all you that you have is opinions.

You won't dare to argue the objective truth that Kobe is 4 -2 vs Duncan in Playoffs (4 - 1 with Phil as coach). I mean after, isn't that one of the best indicators of judging opponents -- when everything is on the line?

You don't wanna put those stats... from those 6 series up

You don't wanna show all those clips on Youtube of Kobe busting up the Spurs in the playoffs

You have no explanations of where Duncan was this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv_wKwanldc

Naw, you wanna cling to little pieces of less definitive data... or when that doesn't work, you like to impose arbitrary standards on what actually happened like the so-called "the man" principle. It gives you a way to discredit or to frame the situation to support another one of your baseless opinions.

Kobe kicked Duncan's butt head-to-head... but Duncan was "the man". And so it goes around and round in circles

Actually its 4-3, about as close as it gets.

[Andrei89]

Duncan > Kobe

[Artillery]

Because "help" in the form of record shooting role players don't count. :oldlol:

Jason Terry averaged 18 ppg on 70% TS percentage in the 2011 Finals.
Ray Allen averaged 20 ppg on 84% TS percentage in the 2008 Finals.
Green is averaging 18 ppg on 84% TS percentage in the 2013 Finals.

If you look at overall impact, he's not doing anything that hasn't been done before.

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[Grey Dawn]

He's already better no matter what, silly.

And last time i checked 3 NBA finals MVP > 2 NBA finals MVP so your argument is totally wrong.

You devoting your life to prop up Kobe career shows how confident you are about his legacy.

This.

Already better.

And OP is insecure.

[rhythmic]

Duncan's the most overrated player on this forum, by a landslide.
In retrospect, if Kobe played a similar role to Duncan the past 5-6 years; most of you wouldn't eevn have him in your top 20. But yet Duncan drop 17/12/3 and everyone is on his nuts like he had a legendary performance. Kobe carried his team to the playoffs this year, playing 45+ minutes a game before his injury. Dude has been the better player since 2007, and is still better.

I'm watching these finals and Duncan just looks like one of the stars. He hasn't been a superstar in over half a decade yet somehow his stock has increased.

Realistically speaking if Kobe was in a similar role since 2008, people would be bashing him so hard each and every chance they get. Duncan? Nope, they just continually praise every little thing he does. That's the difference between them.

I mean every single person on this forum loves to discredit Kobe's first 3 rings, yet he was a MUCH bigger part to those titles then Duncan has been in the last 6 years. Yet these years are used to boost Duncan's legacy, while Kobe's earlier years are used to belittle his career.

It's funny because I don't believe in either.
I think Duncan is adding to his resume, despite him not being a superstar anymore (however, he has had a GREAT season this past year for the Spurs) and him winning his 5th title should elevate his career further. However, the same should be said for Kobe. He had an incredible season and you can't fault him for all the injuries LA sustained this year; they never had a chance to even be on the court at the same, nevermind developing some sort of chemistry or having a decent coach. Heck, Kobe willed his team to the playoffs almost on his own; if anything, this has been one of the more memorable seasons of Kobe's, from my perspective.

Both are great players, they both are on the same tier to me (somewhere between 9th-6th best players of all-time). I have no problem giving Duncan credit, but he is soo damn overrated on this forum and Kobe is so damn scrunitized. I pretty much stopped posting on this forum because trolling, bias and idiocity doesn't teach me anything.

[Carbine]

Duncan played great this year. Made All-NBA first team, had as good an argument for DMVP as anyone else and co-led the team to another high seed and potentially a championship.

At age 37.

You could argue Kobe being Kobe hurt the Lakers this year. If he decided to "fit in" and fill the role that best suits the team/benefits the team the most, they may have developed into a better team.

Instead he had to be the man, take a huge number of shots even though he had other good offensive players on the team, the ball stuck in his hands all the time....and he played virtually no defense. He was a DH, basically.....and it didn't have to be that way.

[DMAVS41]

But why is looking at that? To frame an argument that will support opinion.

Again doesn't want to look at the the entire picture and definitely doesn't want to discuss more decisive facts.

uhhhh...what?

this all started when you called it laughable to claim that Duncan is currently playing better than kobe in the 2000 finals.

frame the argument? that is all you and i ever discussed. and you had no clue how bad kobe was because you honestly probably weren't even watching 13 years ago.

then you want to make it about duncan vs kobe all time. which isn't even relevant to how this started.

i'm still waiting to hear how a player missing 2 games, playing awful in 2 games, average at best in another, and then really good in 1 game is somehow better than what Duncan is doing in these finals....

And then that wasn't enough for you...you called it laughable to do so. So i'll continue to wait to hear some type of coherent response.

[Chizdog]

If only Kobe tried to became a spot up three point shooter and space the floor, Dwight could have dominated.

[DMAVS41]

Duncan played great this year. Made All-NBA first team, had as good an argument for DMVP as anyone else and co-led the team to another high seed and potentially a championship.

At age 37.

You could argue Kobe being Kobe hurt the Lakers this year. If he decided to "fit in" and fill the role that best suits the team/benefits the team the most, they may have developed into a better team.

Instead he had to be the man, take a huge number of shots even though he had other good offensive players on the team, the ball stuck in his hands all the time....and he played virtually no defense. He was a DH, basically.....and it didn't have to be that way.

This...

Kobe has now essentially worn down in the playoffs the last 3 years...or at least 2 of the last 3. And he was worn down in the OKC series in 2010...and if not for a stacked team...would have been sitting at home.

So the people calling Duncan a role player have to understand that he'd be producing much better numbers by still being the man and playing 7 more minutes a game or something, but the team would be worse.

Just like the Lakers would have been better with Kobe playing 7 less minutes a game and actually playing defense when he was on the floor...but again..I blame the coach for most of that.

[miles berg]

Duncan is better than Kobe win or no win, and I'm a Mvs fan, not a fan of Duncanor Kobe.

It's just so brutally obvious, Duncan is a much better player.

[branslowski]

Obviously never watched Kobe play defense in the playoffs before

Kobes 5th All-Time in playoff steals and 5th All-Time in playoff points...Duncan hasn't honestly been considered the best player since 05'...And I like Duncan alot more than others, but the more I look at it, research it, Kobe is in fact the best Player of the 00's decade.

Only thing Duncan does better than Kobe is Rebound.

[branslowski]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Ne 1]

Kobe was not playing anywhere near the kind of defense Duncan does...or at least not the same impact. And he ****ing missed two games essentially and was awful in another 2. So he basically had 2 games out of 6 in which he wasn't just a negative or irrelevant. One of them being a 14/5/3 game.

It's rare for a perimeter player to impact a game defensively as much as a big man, but let's not down play Kobe's defense in that series though. His defense on Mark Jackson was impressive throughout the series, it was reminiscent of Scottie Pippen's defense on Jackson in the 1998 Conference Finals just 2 years ago.

This is from after Game 1:


Kobe's defense -- Kobe Bryant's ball pressure on Pacers point guard Mark Jackson was tremendous. It didn't cause turnovers, but it kept Indiana from getting into its half court offense quickly, and thus disrupted the timing. Kobe also did a good job chasing Miller around screens and denying him the ball when assigned to him.



Bryant's ball pressure on Pacers guard Mark Jackson also helped the cause, slowing down the Indiana offense just enough to disrupt Miller's timing as he flew off screens. "It seemed like Reggie never got in any rythym," Pacers center Sam Perkins admitted.


Yeah, Kobe got injured at the start of Game 2, missed all of Game 3, and was hobbled and limping around for Games 4, 5, and 6 after Jalen Rose intentionally injured him. But his averages vs the Pacers that series in the games he played in are 19/6/4 which isn't bad.

I mean, he did have a sub-par series in general, but a lot of that can be attributed to the injury in Game 2. As already mentioned, it can't be forgotten that he single handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th quarter of Game 4, he hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime. If he didn't come up with that huge performance, the Lakers lose 3 straight games and are down 2-3 going back to L.A. and assuming the still win Game 6, Indiana has a chance to win in 7. So anyway considering Bryant came up with a legendary clutch performance in Game 4 and also put up 26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 turn over playing excellent defense in the clinching game 6, it's not a big deal and it's at least debatable considering the Lakers weren't nearly as deep/well rounded as the Spurs and relied heavily on Shaq/Kobe as a duo. It also shouldn't be forgotten how big Kobe came through in the clutch in the other playoff rounds either in 2000, particularly Game 7 vs Portland, and his production prior to the Finals was right there with his regular season.



Playing on a "throbbing" ankle that kept him out of most of Game 2 and all of Game 3, Bryant stepped up after Shaquille O'Neal fouled out to lead the Los Angeles Lakers to a 120-118 victory and a 3-1 lead in the NBA Finals.

[rhythmic]

Duncan played great this year. Made All-NBA first team, had as good an argument for DMVP as anyone else and co-led the team to another high seed and potentially a championship.

At age 37.

You could argue Kobe being Kobe hurt the Lakers this year. If he decided to "fit in" and fill the role that best suits the team/benefits the team the most, they may have developed into a better team.

Instead he had to be the man, take a huge number of shots even though he had other good offensive players on the team, the ball stuck in his hands all the time....and he played virtually no defense. He was a DH, basically.....and it didn't have to be that way.

Duncan's main competition was Marc Gasol, for both 1st team and DPOTY. So enough said there.

The problem with this board is this: They'll ignore every bad game Duncan has and praise everytime he has a good game. Yet for Kobe, it's the complete opposite. They'll ignore everytime he has a good game and scrutinize him every time he has a bad game.

If Kobe had a finals game where he shot 3/13 like Duncan in game 2, there'd by dozens of threads dedicating to his bashing. For Duncan? Not a single thread is created but as soon he has a solid game say (20/14/4) we'll have a thread praising the guy aka (Duncan >>> Kobe).

This board is like clockwork, same shit on repeat every damn day.

And your whole "if Kobe played his role" crap is so played out, and just further solidifies my point. It's almost like every player should play like Duncan, share the ball (win or loss) and you'll never get critisized because you're a team player. So when Duncan has a terrible game it just gets ignored.

He also had Pop his entire career, and great role players since 1999. Under Phil, LA overachieved with crap like Walton, Smush, Mihm and Kwame on the team winning 42-46 games. Since 2000, Kobe has won at least 50 games when he had solid role players around him under Phil except 2005 (when Rudy was the coach, this past season and the two years where LA was rebuilding).

SA never had to rebuild around Duncan, so we never had the opportunity to see how he can carry a bad team like Garnett or Kobe had to do in their careers. My point being, I'm pretty certain if Kobe had Phil Jackson (or Pop) his entire career, and consistently had adequate help; he could have won 50+ games too, each and every season. Even as Duncan has declined, the Spurs still contended for the top record every year. It just shows how significantly underrated his teammates are; guys like Manu & Parker are like Pippen was to Jordan, completely overlooked or forgotten. It's a shame really. Yet, when talking about Kobe everyone on this forum is so quick to point out how great Pau was, yet Parker actually won FMVP before... see where I'm going with this?

It's very circumstancial. The only thing that is certain is both Duncan and Kobe are legends, top 10 players ever. I have no problem with anyone having Duncan above Kobe, but the way we evaluate their games and careers is completely biased.

That's my main problem with this forum.

[SCdac]

"San Antonio never had to rebuild around Duncan" :oldlol:

Yeahhh, Sean Eliott, Avery Johnson, Mario Ellie, and Antonio Daniels were so sick on that 2005 championship Spurs team. What a core let me tell ya.

"What, the roster outside of Duncan looked entirely different by 2005? That's not rebuilding! that's uhh, um, retooling!". :rolleyes:

Just because the Spurs didn't bottom out or miss the playoffs like a Kobe-lead team has before, doesn't mean they didn't completely rebuild around Duncan.

[rhythmic]

"San Antonio never had to rebuild around Duncan" :oldlol:

Yeahhh, Sean Eliott, Avery Johnson, Mario Ellie, and Antonio Daniels were so sick on that 2005 championship Spurs team. What a core let me tell ya.

"What, the roster outside of Duncan looked entirely different by 2005? That's not rebuilding! that's uhh, um, retooling!". :rolleyes:

Just because the Spurs didn't bottom out or miss the playoffs like a Kobe-lead team has before, doesn't mean they didn't completely rebuild around Duncan.

Ah, coming from one of the biggest homer on this forum.
I take what you say with a grain of salt. Do yourself a favor and don't reply to me anymore, I could care less about your "opinion" on any matter.

You naming some of the least productive players on the 05' Spurs yet ignoring some of their key producers is completely predictable; or even bothering to mention that in 2005, there was hardly ANY great teams in the league.

Funny how you decided to mention Kobe; considering Butler, Kobe & Odom missed a bunch of games that year and didn't even have a real coach because Rudy got sick. Something your boy never had to go through in his entire career. Dude faced no adversity ever, he has always had a damn solid team around him.
But continue overrating the dude, it's old news to me.

[Ne 1]

If Kobe had a finals game where he shot 3/13 like Duncan in game 2, there'd by dozens of threads dedicating to his bashing.

This is very true. All we ever hear about on ISH and similar sites is that Kobe shoot 6-24 from the field in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Nobody seems to ever bring up that Duncan went 10-27 from the field in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Nobody seems to care that in the 1996 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the 1997 and 1998 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in 2011, Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in Game 7 of the 1994 Finals and Shaq was 4-11 in 2006 vs Dallas, but nobody ever seems to bring it up. Oh, and let's not forget the 'efficiency God' LeBron James shot 9-21 from the field in Game 7 of the ECF vs Boston in route to a championship last year.

But really, it's only a tiny fraction of elitist, agenda driven posters on message boards like ISH that try to diminish Kobe that will even ever bring up his FG% in that game. He won his 5th ring, and that's all that matters in the end.

[rhythmic]

This is very true. All we ever hear about on ISH and similar sites is that Kobe shoot 6-24 from the field in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Nobody seems to ever bring up that Duncan went 10-27 from the field in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Nobody seems to care that in the 1996 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the 1997 and 1998 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in 2011, Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in Game 7 of the 1994 Finals and Shaq was 4-11 in 2006 vs Dallas, but nobody ever seems to bring it up. Oh, and let's not forget the 'efficiency God' LeBron James shot 9-21 from the field in Game 7 of the ECF vs Boston in route to a championship last year.

But really, it's only a tiny fraction of elitist, agenda driven posters on message boards like ISH that try to diminish Kobe that will even ever bring up his FG% in that game. He won his 5th ring, and that's all that matters in the end.

Exactly bro, it's only a small fraction but that small amount of posters consistently flood the forum with their non-sense. Like Carbine & DMAV seem a little pro-Duncan to me, but at least I enjoy reading their posts because they actually make good points. Even though they hardly ever mention Duncan's weaknesses, struggles or faults. They mostly will post when the dude does something great on the court, etc.

[SCdac]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

This message is hidden because SCdac is on your ignore list.

Only the 2nd poster to make my ignore list in 2 years, congrats you're a shitty poster.

[SCdac]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[juju151111]

This is very true. All we ever hear about on ISH and similar sites is that Kobe shoot 6-24 from the field in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Nobody seems to ever bring up that Duncan went 10-27 from the field in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Nobody seems to care that in the 1996 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the 1997 and 1998 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in 2011, Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in Game 7 of the 1994 Finals and Shaq was 4-11 in 2006 vs Dallas, but nobody ever seems to bring it up. Oh, and let's not forget the 'efficiency God' LeBron James shot 9-21 from the field in Game 7 of the ECF vs Boston in route to a championship last year.

But really, it's only a tiny fraction of elitist, agenda driven posters on message boards like ISH that try to diminish Kobe that will even ever bring up his FG% in that game. He won his 5th ring, and that's all that matters in the end.
Lol at you Kobe fans. Yes everyone has a bad game but Kobe FG% in the finals isn't impressive. Mj hit the game winner in 98. He had like the last 6 pts. Mj wasn't getting carried in that 98 Gm.

[rhythmic]

2005 Spurs:

Manu, Parker, Bowen, G.Robinson & Horry.
They beat Pistons (in 7), Sonics, Suns, and Nuggest (SUCH a difficult road to the championship). :rolleyes:

Manu & Parker (at 16 PPG both) [21 & 17 in the playoffs], having the best perimeter defender and a bunch of solid role players (Horry, Robinson, & B.Barry].

If you honestly think Kobe's Lakers with Gasol & Odom plus Fisher, Ariza, Sasha, Farmar etc. were that much better then what Duncan had in 2005 then you're just a moron.

Parker & Manu had just as much impact as Gasol & Odom had in 2005, maybe slightly less but the 2005 season was extremely weak. Hardly any great teams besides Detroit & SA.

[Carbine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC8NapbDkes

Timmy in 2003.

That team was a mini-rebuild. Parker wasn't Parker, Gino wasn't Gino yet, Robinson was washed up, SJack/Bowen was just getting started, and a bunch of old dudes to fill out the roster.

Timmy led them in every category by quite a bit:

24.7 ppg vs. 14.7 ppg
15.4 rpg vs. 6.6 rpg
5.3 apg vs. 3.5 apg
3.3 blocks vs. 1.3 blocks

Unreal.

[KG215]

Kobes 5th All-Time in playoff steals and 5th All-Time in playoff points...Duncan hasn't honestly been considered the best player since 05'...And I like Duncan alot more than others, but the more I look at it, research it, Kobe is in fact the best Player of the 00's decade.

Only thing Duncan does better than Kobe is Rebound.
:oldlol:

"Research it"...good one. You haven't researched shit. You're a Kobe stan who probably occasionally peruses BBR, sees Kobe towards the top of some list, and think it means more than it really does.

"The only thing Ducnan does better than Kobe is rebound" is just an incredibly ignorant comment.

[KG215]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[SCdac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC8NapbDkes

Timmy in 2003.

That team was a mini-rebuild. Parker wasn't Parker, Gino wasn't Gino yet, Robinson was washed up, SJack/Bowen was just getting started, and a bunch of old dudes to fill out the roster.

Timmy led them in every category by quite a bit:

24.7 ppg vs. 14.7 ppg
15.4 rpg vs. 6.6 rpg
5.3 apg vs. 3.5 apg
3.3 blocks vs. 1.3 blocks

Unreal.

Yeah, he was unreal in those playoffs.

Against Shaq's Lakers he averaged

28 ppg | 12 rpg | 5 apg | 1 bpg | .53 FG% | .70 FT%

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/21/15/43/4511995/5/628x471.jpg

37 points and 16 rebounds in Game 6 to take out LA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_iN6qwvoS8

[rhythmic]

:confusedshrug:

You're just as big of a Lakers/Kobe homer as he is a Spurs/Duncan homer. And so are the posters you're agreeing with in this thread. So if you're going to take what he says with a grain of salt, then yo have to take branslowski, Ne 1, etc. posts with a grain of salt.

Wrong, I criticize Kobe all the time.
I'm hardly a Laker/Kobe homer. That dude dedicates 90% of his posts to Duncan. It's not just from this thread either; I've noticed a lot of his posts in the last two years and I've hardly ever replied to any of them.

Dude's just annoying.
In this thread, I haven't agreed with any of those "homers" so I have no idea what you're even talking about. Ne 1 replied to my post regarding people scrutinizing Kobe too much, which I agree with.

I wish people in this forum would stay on point and actually make sense of what they're talking about.

I've said my piece in this thread; about Kobe/Duncan.
But I guess to you that makes me a homer. :rolleyes:

[rmt]

Kobes 5th All-Time in playoff steals and 5th All-Time in playoff points...Duncan hasn't honestly been considered the best player since 05'...And I like Duncan alot more than others, but the more I look at it, research it, Kobe is in fact the best Player of the 00's decade.

Only thing Duncan does better than Kobe is Rebound.

You need to check your facts before you type incorrect statements:

05-06
TD 20.3 pts / 11.1 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.6 blks 49.6% all-nba & all-def 2nd teams
TP 16.6 pts / 3.7 rebs / 6.1 asst 48.2%
MG 16 pts / 4.4 rebs / 3.9 asst 47.1%

06-07
TD 20 pts / 10.6 rebs / 3.4 asst / 2.4 blks 54.6% all-nba & all-def 1st teams
TP 18.6 pts / 3.2 rebs / 5.5 asst 52.6%
MG 16.5 pts / 4.4 rebs / 3.5 asst 46.4%

07-08
TD 19.3 pts / 11.3 rebs / 2.8 asst / 1.9 blks 49.7% all-nba 2nd team all-def 1st team
TP 18.8 pts / 3.2 rebs / 6 asst 49.4%
MG 19.5 pts / 4.8 rebs / 4.5 asst 46% all-nba 3rd team

08-09
TD 19.3 pts / 10.7 rebs / 3.5 asst / 1.7 blks 50.4% all-nba & all-def 2nd teams
TP 22 pts / 3.1 rebs / 6.9 asst 50.6% all-nba 3rd team
MG 15.5 pts / 4.5 rebs / 3.6 asst 45.4%

09-10
TD 17.9 pts / 10.1 rebs / 3.2 asst / 1.5 blks 51.8% all-nba 3rd, all-def 2nd
TP 16 pts / 2.4 rebs / 5.7 asst 48.7%
MG 16.5 pts / 3.8 rebs / 4.9 asst 44.1%

10-11
TD 13.4 pts / 8.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 1.9 blks 50%
TP 17.5 pts / 3.1 rebs / 6.6 asst 51.9%
MG 17.4 pts / 3.7 rebs / 4.9 asst 43.3% all-nba 3rd

11-12
TD 15.4 pts / 9 rebs / 2.3 asst / 1.5 blks 49.2%
TP 18.3 pts / 2.9 rebs / 7.7 asst 48% all-nba 2nd
MG 12.9 pts / 3.4 rebs / 4.4 asst 52.6%

12-13
TD 17.8 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.7 blks 50.2% all-nba 1st, all-def 2nd
TP 20.3 pts / 3.0 rebs / 7.6 asst 52.2% all-nba 2nd
MG 11.8 pts / 3.4 rebs / 4.6 asst 42.5%

With the uncertainty surrounding Kobe's achilles and Dwight going back to LAL, I wouldn't be too certain of Kobe climbing any higher on the playoff steals or points list. Tim Duncan is the HOLDER of most playoff blocks record in NBA history, but according to you, Kobe's better at blocks than TD is.

[SCdac]

Tim Duncan is the HOLDER of most playoff blocks record in NBA history, but according to you, Kobe's better at blocks than TD is.

Good post.

And on top of playoff blocks, he's also #2 all time in double-doubles :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/Eh0nM9h.jpg

[rhythmic]

You need to check your facts before you type incorrect statements:

05-06
TD 20.3 pts / 11.1 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.6 blks 49.6% all-nba & all-def 2nd teams
TP 16.6 pts / 3.7 rebs / 6.1 asst 48.2%
MG 16 pts / 4.4 rebs / 3.9 asst 47.1%

06-07
TD 20 pts / 10.6 rebs / 3.4 asst / 2.4 blks 54.6% all-nba & all-def 1st teams
TP 18.6 pts / 3.2 rebs / 5.5 asst 52.6%
MG 16.5 pts / 4.4 rebs / 3.5 asst 46.4%

07-08
TD 19.3 pts / 11.3 rebs / 2.8 asst / 1.9 blks 49.7% all-nba 2nd team all-def 1st team
TP 18.8 pts / 3.2 rebs / 6 asst 49.4%
MG 19.5 pts / 4.8 rebs / 4.5 asst 46% all-nba 3rd team

08-09
TD 19.3 pts / 10.7 rebs / 3.5 asst / 1.7 blks 50.4% all-nba & all-def 2nd teams
TP 22 pts / 3.1 rebs / 6.9 asst 50.6% all-nba 3rd team
MG 15.5 pts / 4.5 rebs / 3.6 asst 45.4%

09-10
TD 17.9 pts / 10.1 rebs / 3.2 asst / 1.5 blks 51.8% all-nba 3rd, all-def 2nd
TP 16 pts / 2.4 rebs / 5.7 asst 48.7%
MG 16.5 pts / 3.8 rebs / 4.9 asst 44.1%

10-11
TD 13.4 pts / 8.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 1.9 blks 50%
TP 17.5 pts / 3.1 rebs / 6.6 asst 51.9%
MG 17.4 pts / 3.7 rebs / 4.9 asst 43.3% all-nba 3rd

11-12
TD 15.4 pts / 9 rebs / 2.3 asst / 1.5 blks 49.2%
TP 18.3 pts / 2.9 rebs / 7.7 asst 48% all-nba 2nd
MG 12.9 pts / 3.4 rebs / 4.4 asst 52.6%

12-13
TD 17.8 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.7 blks 50.2% all-nba 1st, all-def 2nd
TP 20.3 pts / 3.0 rebs / 7.6 asst 52.2% all-nba 2nd
MG 11.8 pts / 3.4 rebs / 4.6 asst 42.5%

With the uncertainty surrounding Kobe's achilles and Dwight going back to LAL, I wouldn't be too certain of Kobe climbing any higher on the playoff steals or points list. Tim Duncan is the HOLDER of most playoff blocks record in NBA history, but according to you, Kobe's better at blocks than TD is.

Saying Duncan is only better at rebounding is rediculous and you shouldn't have even wasted your time replying. Duncan brings far more impact defensively then Kobe, a far better shot block and rebounder. Kobe is the better scorer & playmaker. Heck, Duncan is one of the most clutch bigs I have ever seen as well. Plus, he has always stepped up his game (during his prime) in important situations (games).

Both of them are legends, I have Kobe at 7th and Duncan at 8th; both above Shaquille on my list.

[rmt]

This is very true. All we ever hear about on ISH and similar sites is that Kobe shoot 6-24 from the field in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals.

Nobody seems to ever bring up that Duncan went 10-27 from the field in the deciding game of the '05 Finals. Nobody seems to care that in the 1996 Finals that Jordan shot 5-19 or that he shot 15-35 in the deciding games of the 1997 and 1998 Finals (and in '98 vs Jazz he accumulated just ONE rebound and ONE assist despite playing 45 minutes...and we can also mention in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals vs the Pacers that same year he shot 9-25) Dirk went 9-27 in 2011, Hakeem shot 10-25 vs the Knicks in Game 7 of the 1994 Finals and Shaq was 4-11 in 2006 vs Dallas, but nobody ever seems to bring it up. Oh, and let's not forget the 'efficiency God' LeBron James shot 9-21 from the field in Game 7 of the ECF vs Boston in route to a championship last year.

But really, it's only a tiny fraction of elitist, agenda driven posters on message boards like ISH that try to diminish Kobe that will even ever bring up his FG% in that game. He won his 5th ring, and that's all that matters in the end.

Funny how Pop, Parker, Larry Brown, Ben Wallace seem to see that 05 game 7 differently than you:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Duncan depleted and dissected the Pistons, collecting 25 points and 11 rebounds. He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."


Meanwhile, here are comments from 2010 game 7:

"Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team."

http://www.webcitation.org/5wfrwRtjY

"... the more I tried to push, the more it kept getting away from me.”

"... I wanted it so bad, and sometimes when you want it so bad, it slips away from you. My guys picked me up.” - Kobe

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2010061713

[rmt]

Good post.

And on top of playoff blocks, he's also #2 all time in double-doubles :applause:

http://i.imgur.com/Eh0nM9h.jpg

Actually, 147 double-doubles now - 10 away from Magic's record. 2 more years on his contract - might be doable.

[rhythmic]

[QUOTE=rmt]Funny how Pop, Parker, Larry Brown, Ben Wallace seem to see that 05 game 7 differently than you:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Duncan depleted and dissected the Pistons, collecting 25 points and 11 rebounds. He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."


Meanwhile, here are comments from 2010 game 7:

"Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team."

http://www.webcitation.org/5wfrwRtjY

"... the more I tried to push, the more it kept getting away from me.

[Odinn]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[rhythmic]

2001 playoffs: SA down 0-2.

Game 3: Duncan 3 for 14 for 4 points, 13 rebounds, 7 assists Vs. Kobe 36 points (14 for 27), 9 rebounds, 8 assists

In a key elimination game:

15 points, 7 rebounds, 1 assist in 35 minutes.

Oh my god guys, Duncan is such a quiter look at at that pathetic stat line with his team's backs against the wall.

See how easy it is to manipulate stats in favor of one player? :rolleyes:

[ripthekik]

:facepalm

would everyone in this thread just chill. Duncan and Kobe are on the same boat. Both top 10 players that define the era post-Jordan. The year after Jordan retired in 1998, there was 12 appearances made either by Kobe or Duncan in the finals.

:pimp:

[rhythmic]

Parker? Really? In 2005 Finals?:roll: :roll: :roll:

Who's talking about 2005? The point is the other poster is just highlighting incidents where Duncan played better then Kobe.

Why not mention how Kobe played against the Suns in 2010? Yes Kobe struggled against a great defensive team in game 7, but Duncan has struggled too in important games.

[tpols]

:rolleyes: Why don't you quote Doc Rivers after that game 7 where he said "despite Kobe struggling shooting the ball, he was instrumental on the glass in a low-scoring game where every possession was key and held Ray to 3 for 14 shooting..."

Love how you pick and choose quotes out of context, keep up the good work. Duncan shot 10 for 27 in game 7, but helped his team in other areas. So did Kobe, Artest was huge for us (and Fisher) in that game 7 scoring the ball no doubt about it. But please quit acting like Manu & Parker didn't save Duncan's ass before with their clutch scoring.
Spurs fans are the worst.. They will always twist and turn everything to go their way while never remaining objective even a bit. Ive never seen any of them give credit to anyone besides duncan EVER.

This is a team built like the detroit pistons.. and their philosophy has been that way for over a decade. TD is an all time great player but hes been in the most consistent winningest system in ALL of pro sports.. his team can win 60 games with him being a role player (12/10, 13/9) and hell get credit for best winning percentage.:oldlol:

Only Duncan will get credit in that case because hes held such a quiet, always do the right thing for the team demeanor.. which is great because it allows the other guys on his team to take over, but in individual comparisons to other individual players it doesnt hold as much weight.

You put a guy like KG on this team and they dont miss a beat.

[rmt]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Odinn]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Flash31]

As much as I dont lke Kobe,

During this whole season and the playoffs,
there was Literally 0,0 Duncan fans here.

It is ironic and funny that the same people hating on bandwagons and propping up stars
do the exact same thing when a team is facing the heat.

Before IND faced the Heat there were 0 Paul George,Ind fans,
when they were facing the heat all of a dudden there are 20 IND,George fans.

Its like DAL in 2011,where
all of a sudden there are alot of Dirk and Dall fans and Dirk is clutch king and one of goat players and pf.

And now with the Spurs and Duncan.

The fans,correction team,player jumpers,stans
hyping up Duncan are either Jordan fanatics,LeBron knee worshippers,or people who hate Kobe,or people who HATE the Heat and/or the Lakers.

It can be made and seen that Duncan is already better than Kobe and if he wins a 5th ring then hes better,that argument can be made and all,but
from Duncan and the Spurs literally having 0 fans on here to it being
the Spurs are popular here and in the media,and theyre facing the Heat and LeBron,
its funny,ironic,and pure hypocrisy
that the same people hating on the heat,bandwagons and player fans are doing the exact same thing opnly worse.

Theyre jumping on any team and any player,and hyping them up
bc theyre in the finals and they want the Heat and LeBron to lose to them.

Its a repeating cycle,team faces heat and LeBron,they get a resurgence of so called long time fans and supporters and the players are hyped up to
huge degrees,they lose,those same people are long time fans of another team and just wanted to see the heat lose,rinse and repeat until a team does beat them which of course then theyve always been fans of that team and the players there were always better and one of the goat,
Its beyond comical.

[rmt]

As much as I dont lke Kobe,

During this whole season and the playoffs,
there was Literally 0,0 Duncan fans here.

It is ironic and funny that the same people hating on bandwagons and propping up stars
do the exact same thing when a team is facing the heat.

Before IND faced the Heat there were 0 Paul George,Ind fans,
when they were facing the heat all of a dudden there are 20 IND,George fans.

Its like DAL in 2011,where
all of a sudden there are alot of Dirk and Dall fans and Dirk is clutch king and one of goat players and pf.

And now with the Spurs and Duncan.

The fans,correction team,player jumpers,stans
hyping up Duncan are either Jordan fanatics,LeBron knee worshippers,or people who hate Kobe,or people who HATE the Heat and/or the Lakers.

It can be made and seen that Duncan is already better than Kobe and if he wins a 5th ring then hes better,that argument can be made and all,but
from Duncan and the Spurs literally having 0 fans on here to it being
the Spurs are popular here and in the media,and theyre facing the Heat and LeBron,
its funny,ironic,and pure hypocrisy
that the same people hating on the heat,bandwagons and player fans are doing the exact same thing opnly worse.

Theyre jumping on any team and any player,and hyping them up
bc theyre in the finals and they want the Heat and LeBron to lose to them.

Its a repeating cycle,team faces heat and LeBron,they get a resurgence of so called long time fans and supporters and the players are hyped up to
huge degrees,they lose,those same people are long time fans of another team and just wanted to see the heat lose,rinse and repeat until a team does beat them which of course then theyve always been fans of that team and the players there were always better and one of the goat,
Its beyond comical.

The Spurs fans responding on the last couple pages have posts of 6031, 5848, 1679 and 2477 - hardly band wagoners. This whole post-season I've been very pessimistic about the Spurs chances - bitten too many years since Duncan's decline. I am hopeful that they'll close out tonight, but know that it's really in MIA's hands because when they play at their best, no team can touch them. But I will not sit by quietly (and not re-butt) while Kobe stans' insecurities have them posting incorrect "facts".

[Mr Know It All]

Peak Duncan (1999-2005) was always better than Kobe. Was only really an argument for those who allow themselves to be swept up in the ESPN hype machine that works wonders for Kobe and his fans.

That being said, at this point Duncan is now a phenomenal system player. Nothing wrong with that, it's an ideal situation for a guy on the tail end of his career, and he's worked his butt off to build the Spurs to what they have been since he has been drafted.

[SCdac]

As much as I dont lke Kobe,

During this whole season and the playoffs,
there was Literally 0,0 Duncan fans here.

It is ironic and funny that the same people hating on bandwagons and propping up stars
do the exact same thing when a team is facing the heat.

Before IND faced the Heat there were 0 Paul George,Ind fans,
when they were facing the heat all of a dudden there are 20 IND,George fans.

Its like DAL in 2011,where
all of a sudden there are alot of Dirk and Dall fans and Dirk is clutch king and one of goat players and pf.

And now with the Spurs and Duncan.

:oldlol:

Duncan has been on the Spurs since 1997, you really think people in this thread are all of a sudden Duncan fans?

This thread is comical from beginning to end.

[rhythmic]

It's comical that you are telling me to watch the game rather then the box scores; then try to highlight comments made by Phil & Kobe that diminish his impact in that game 7 yet omit comments made by Doc that emphasize how important Kobe was in other areas. :rolleyes: You pick and choose, your intentions are obvious.

Odinn:

Lets recap shall we.

Denver Nuggets: 17 points (44%), 8 assists (Win)
Boston Celtics: 24 points (25%), 15 rebounds (Win)
Houston Rockets: 14 points (33%), 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals & 2 blocks (Win)
Phoenix Suns: 24 points (50%), 4 rebounds (Loss)
Sacramento Kings: 30 points (39%), 10 rebounds, 7 assists (Win)
Portland Blazers: 25 points (49%), 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks (Win)

Funny how people only highlight Kobe's poor shooting percentage and PPG.
Yet the guy is 5-1 in game 7's and has averaged 7.4 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.2 BPG & 2.2 SPG in those games. :rolleyes:

[Odinn]

Odinn:

Lets recap shall we.

Denver Nuggets: 17 points (44%), 8 assists (Win)
Boston Celtics: 24 points (25%), 15 rebounds (Win)
Houston Rockets: 14 points (33%), 7 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals & 2 blocks (Win)
Phoenix Suns: 24 points (50%), 4 rebounds (Loss)
Sacramento Kings: 30 points (39%), 10 rebounds, 7 assists (Win)
Portland Blazers: 25 points (49%), 11 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 blocks (Win)

Funny how people only highlight Kobe's poor shooting percentage and PPG.
Yet the guy is 5-1 in game 7's and has averaged 7.4 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.2 BPG & 2.2 SPG in those games. :rolleyes:
You didn't remember that chart. That's for sure.:oldlol:

[rhythmic]

You didn't remember that chart. That's for sure.:oldlol:

I just posted Kobe's stats in those 6 games you idiot.
And he sure as hell didn't average 3.5 APG. :rolleyes:

Just from the 4 games alone that I posted above he's averaging 4.5 APG (over 6 games)...8 + 5 + 7 + 7 (divide by 6 games). Now include his 6-7 extra assists in the other two games that I didn't include and he's averaging roughly 6.1 APG I believe (or maybe it's 5.1 APG I can't recall).

[rhythmic]

http://kepfeltoltes.hu/120217/eliminationchart_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

Nuggets: 8 assists
Celtics: 2 assists
Rockets: 5 assists
Suns: 1 assist
Kings: 7 assists
Blazers: 7 assists

30 assists / 6 games = 5.0 APG
Not 3.5 like that chart states.

25 PPG / 7.4 RPG / 5.0 APG / 2.2 SPG / 1.2BPG & 5-1 record in game 7's.

[Ne 1]

......

"I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, Boston was badly out rebounded, and he [Kobe Bryant] didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game." - Tom Thibodeau

[rhythmic]

"I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, Boston was badly out rebounded, and he [Kobe Bryant] didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game." - Tom Thibodeau

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Kobe's 15 rebounds was huge especially considering the final score and the poor shooting from both teams. Each possession was crucial in that game and Kobe helped secure those possessions for his team.

[Derka]

It's funny how you had to invent a thing called "Duncan fans" when pretty much anyone who is a basketball fan and doesn't have his/her head up Lebron/Kobe's ass exclusively and whose team isn't on the receiving end of a Spurs whipping is a Duncan fan :lol

[Ne 1]

Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Kobe's 15 rebounds was huge especially considering the final score and the poor shooting from both teams. Each possession was crucial in that game and Kobe helped secure those possessions for his team.

It's really a shame people with an agenda just like to cling to Kobe's FG% in Game 7.

He grabbed 15 boards, played great D, was the leading scorer of that game and scored 10 points in the 4th quarter, hit 7/8 free throws, and hit a huge jumper with 3 minutes left to put the Lakers up 6 and the Celtics never could get back in the game after he hit that shot. Haters just point out he he had a poor shooting night, but nobody really had a good shooting game on either team, it was a defensive struggle and I mostly credit good defense on both sides.

Not to mention though 6 games he averaged 30/6/5/2/ 56 TS%. Even people in the media were saying he should be awarded FMVP even if the Celtics won in 6 after that huge Game 5 performance in a losing effort where nobody else on the Lakers showed up. Kobe also disrupted and limited Rondo big time. Everyone was proclaiming him the best PG in the game before that series. Other than one game, he never went off. The one game he did, Kobe was in foul trouble. Rondo is the engine that made that Celtics team run. Kobe turned him into the Little Engine that Couldn't.

[SwayDizzle]

As much as I hate to say it, Duncan has been an integral part of this Spurs championship team, and if he wins fmvp, then he will be ranked higher than Kobe. (otherwise not)

[DMAVS41]

It's rare for a perimeter player to impact a game defensively as much as a big man, but let's not down play Kobe's defense in that series though. His defense on Mark Jackson was impressive throughout the series, it was reminiscent of Scottie Pippen's defense on Jackson in the 1998 Conference Finals just 2 years ago.

This is from after Game 1:







Yeah, Kobe got injured at the start of Game 2, missed all of Game 3, and was hobbled and limping around for Games 4, 5, and 6 after Jalen Rose intentionally injured him. But his averages vs the Pacers that series in the games he played in are 19/6/4 which isn't bad.

I mean, he did have a sub-par series in general, but a lot of that can be attributed to the injury in Game 2. As already mentioned, it can't be forgotten that he single handedly carried the team when Shaq fouled out in the 4th quarter of Game 4, he hit 4 huge free throws and lit the Pacers up in overtime. If he didn't come up with that huge performance, the Lakers lose 3 straight games and are down 2-3 going back to L.A. and assuming the still win Game 6, Indiana has a chance to win in 7. So anyway considering Bryant came up with a legendary clutch performance in Game 4 and also put up 26/10/4/2/1 with only 1 turn over playing excellent defense in the clinching game 6, it's not a big deal and it's at least debatable considering the Lakers weren't nearly as deep/well rounded as the Spurs and relied heavily on Shaq/Kobe as a duo. It also shouldn't be forgotten how big Kobe came through in the clutch in the other playoff rounds either in 2000, particularly Game 7 vs Portland, and his production prior to the Finals was right there with his regular season.

Yes, a lot was due to injury. So what? That doesn't make what happened different. Kobe was either awful or a non factor in 4 of the 6 finals games. End of story....and someone claiming it's laughable to say Duncan has been better in the finals so far is just a moron.

[Ne 1]

Kobe was a factor in 3 of the 4 Finals games the Lakers won, and the 1 game the Lakers won without him, he was out due to injury. End of story....


Fixed that for you.


and someone claiming it's laughable to say Duncan has been better in the finals


I don't think it's laughable though. It's just irrelevant and not worth trying to distinguish.

[DMAVS41]

Fixed that for you.



I don't think it's laughable though. It's just irrelevant and not worth trying to distinguish.

It was in response to someone else.

Now the grading curve is just being a factor? He was a non factor in 2 games. And he was a net negative in another...and in another he played poorly. And in another he played average at best. And then played one really good game.

There is no injury excuse because we are talking about what they actually did. That would be no different than talking about Duncan's age....doesn't matter.

[tpols]

Don't get why people are arguing over finals versus finals when one player was injured and one wasn't. Besides that..if youre trying to say Duncan's ring this year holds more weight than kobes in 2000 does you're going to have to look at the whole year and every series in the playoffs. And when you do that you see Duncan and kobe were both secondary pieces one to shaq and one to the best perimeter team offense in the league.

[DMAVS41]

Don't get why people are arguing over finals versus finals when one player was injured and one wasn't. Besides that..if youre trying to say Duncan's ring this year holds more weight than kobes in 2000 does you're going to have to look at the whole year and every series in the playoffs. And when you do that you see Duncan and kobe were both secondary pieces one to shaq and one to the best perimeter team offense in the league.

Exactly.

And it came about when a Kobe fan told me it was laughable to say that Duncan was better than Kobe finals vs finals.

I have equated their performances the entire time. Although Kobe being such a non factor in the finals probably edges it in favor of Duncan for me should the Spurs win and Duncan continues to play as a possible finals mvp.

[GoSpursGo1984]

Spurs fans are the worst.. They will always twist and turn everything to go their way while never remaining objective even a bit. Ive never seen any of them give credit to anyone besides duncan EVER.

This is a team built like the detroit pistons.. and their philosophy has been that way for over a decade. TD is an all time great player but hes been in the most consistent winningest system in ALL of pro sports.. his team can win 60 games with him being a role player (12/10, 13/9) and hell get credit for best winning percentage.:oldlol:

Only Duncan will get credit in that case because hes held such a quiet, always do the right thing for the team demeanor.. which is great because it allows the other guys on his team to take over, but in individual comparisons to other individual players it doesnt hold as much weight.

You put a guy like KG on this team and they dont miss a beat.

Please Spurs fans have given plenty of praise to Parker and other players. What great players has not been on a great team? His first years Kobe was a good not great player yet the Lakers still won. It is a double standard to say Ducan won with a great team when Kobe did to.

[ShaqAttack3234]

To the OP, personally, I have Duncan a bit ahead of Kobe in general. This series, and this season in general have had no impact on this choice either way.


Fixed that for you.

Eh, he really didn't have much of game 1. 14/3/5 and had a fast start, but was extremely quiet after the first quarter, iirc. Game 6 was sort of a mixed bag for him, not a good game, but he did make things happen with his aggressiveness at times.

Overall, I rank it as a poor series for him with one great game, but that doesn't diminish his importance and all around play throughout the playoffs.

In particular, he had a number of huge moments, people remember game 4 vs Indiana and game 7 vs Portland, but seem to forget his block on Sabonis at the end of game 3 to seal that win and his game-winning jumper over Jason Kidd in game 2 vs Phoenix.

[Pacquiao]

Duncan is turning 38 years old and wearing a kneecap brace. Does everyone really expect him to put 30 and 20 every night?..

Remove Duncan from the Spurs, they are going to get sweep by the heat.

[TonyMontana]

Duncan has always been better at Kobe, even now.

Duncan has his team in the Finals, yet Kobe can't get anything better than a 7 seed with Dwight Howard on his team. Without Phil Kobe is nothing. Phil makes the most of his superstars.

The only time Kobes team has been better than Duncans is when he had the best frontcourt in the league on his team(Prime Shaq and then prime Gasol-Odom-Bynum). When Kobe doesn't have overwhelming talent compared to his competition he comes up short time and time again.

[Smoke117]

He's already better than Kobe career wise.

[Ca$H]

He's already better than Kobe career wise.

You mean peak play wise. Kobe would still have the 3rd best career resume.
Duncan would have one more MVP and one more FMVP while Kobe would have more All NBA teams, 1st team all NBA teams, 1st team All defensive teams, total points, 4-2 head to head record vs Duncan in the playoffs, better consistency since Duncan sucked in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 while Kobe made 1st team All NBA those seasons.

[rmt]

You mean peak play wise. Kobe would still have the 3rd best career resume.
Duncan would have one more MVP and one more FMVP while Kobe would have more All NBA teams, 1st team all NBA teams, 1st team All defensive teams, total points, 4-2 head to head record vs Duncan in the playoffs, better consistency since Duncan sucked in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 while Kobe made 1st team All NBA those seasons.

Peak play wise I agree with you is Duncan. 2003 Duncan > any Kobe

Career resume - should I point to 1996-97 and 1997-98 when Kobe "sucked" while Duncan made 1st team All NBA those seasons or total rebounds or total blocks? All-defensive teams - LOL - we all know Kobe's been undeserving of those for years now.

[chopchop20]

Peak play wise I agree with you is Duncan. 2003 Duncan > any Kobe

Career resume - should I point to 1996-97 and 1997-98 when Kobe "sucked" while Duncan made 1st team All NBA those seasons or total rebounds or total blocks? All-defensive teams - LOL - we all know Kobe's been undeserving of those for years now.

According to who?

[b1imtf]

[QUOTE=TonyMontana][B][U]
Kobe Bryant

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan is slightly greater all-time, and was also a better player at his peak.

[rmt]

Nice bump. This thread was before game 6. And Duncan goes 30/17 and 24/12 in games 6 and 7. Pity they didn't win - so close to 5 rings and 4 FMVPs.

[zoom17]

Nice bump. This thread was before game 6. And Duncan goes 30/17 and 24/12 in games 6 and 7. Pity they didn't win - so close to 5 rings and 4 FMVPs.

So close indeed nice Finals:cheers:

[miles berg]

Duncan is clearly better than Kobe. Another title just further distances the two.

[Round Mound]

Duncan has always been better at Kobe, even now.

Duncan has his team in the Finals, yet Kobe can't get anything better than a 7 seed with Dwight Howard on his team. Without Phil Kobe is nothing. Phil makes the most of his superstars.

The only time Kobes team has been better than Duncans is when he had the best frontcourt in the league on his team(Prime Shaq and then prime Gasol-Odom-Bynum). When Kobe doesn't have overwhelming talent compared to his competition he comes up short time and time again.

:applause: