Barkley: Lebron already top 10 but no matter what he does can never become top 5

[CavaliersFTW]

http://youtu.be/Crhv9XrBgc4?t=7m15s

Barkley's untouchable top 5:

*Michael Jordan
*Oscar Robertson
*Wilt Chamberlain
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
*Bill Russell

:bowdown:

Barkley's remaining top 10 where Lebron established his place:

*Lebron James
*Kobe Bryant
*Magic Johnson
*Larry Bird
*Jerry West

:applause:

I actually like his list.

[Kingwillball]

Yeah he wins 3 or 4 more "ships" u best believe he is revising that list..

[DaSeba5]

The top 10 part is correct, but if he keeps winning titles with performances like game 7 he will be.

Edit: Putting LeBron in the top 10 I mean

[DMV2]

Shaq and Duncan aren't Top 10?

I mean, Kobe is Top 10 but Shaquille O'Neal isn't? The man who won back-to-back-to-back Finals MVP. :oldlol:

[TMacMagic]

Don't mind this list tbh.

[Fudge]

I personally think he can overtake anybody on that list except MJ.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yeah he wins 3 or 4 more "ships" u best believe he is revising that list..
Ships won't change Barkleys mind at all except for where he ranks in relation to Kobe (in the top 10) as he quite clearly stated.

[CavaliersFTW]

Don't mind this list tbh.
Same, some peoples lists make me cringe but when I heard his I was actually impressed. Obviously there are other players that I feel could come and go within a top 5/10 list but his is pretty good, I could see a very solid argument for all of those players how he listed them.

[tikay0]

Barkley speaks the truth. :applause:

[PJR]

Barkely contradicts himself so much during that Dan Patrick interview. My goodness he's an idiot. :oldlol:

[livinglegend]

It s his opinion and his opinion is not more valuable than anybody else.
He said nothing can change his top 5, so that means, if Lebron wins 11 streak championships, he still cant enter his top 5.:lol

[DaSeba5]

This is my top 11 as of now

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Hakeem

[CJ Mustard]

Barkley is a complete moron. What a terrible list.

[Uncle Drew]

No Allen Iverson in Chuck's list? :confusedshrug:

[chosen_wun]

I keep scrolling back up to look at the list and Duncan and Shaq are not on it ... ???

How is Duncan not top 10 ? thats not even opinion based, it should be required. He's the best at his position..

[CJ Mustard]

This is my top 11 as of now

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Hakeem
Decent list. Replace Kobe with Oscar and Duncan ahead of Shaq though.

[aj1987]

What in the ****? Where is Shaq? The most dominant player EVER, who won 3 FMVP's? Duncan? 4x NBA Champion, 3x FMVP, 2x MVP, GOAT PF, and one of the greatest defenders. EVER. Barkley is ****ing retarded. Lebron, Kobe, West and Oscar aren't better than Shaq and Duncan. West and Oscar aren't better than Hakeem.

[DaSeba5]

Decent list. Replace Kobe with Oscar and Duncan ahead of Shaq though.

Kobe has to be in the top 10, no?

And I always move Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe around at 7, 8, and 9. I can never decide.

[chosen_one6]

No Duncan or Shaq makes me question Barkley's top 10 opinion.

[tazb]

He also said just a few months ago that LeBron was better than Jordan. :lol **** this bi-polar, ringless, fat piece of shit.

[Magic 32]

He also said just a few months ago that LeBron was better than Jordan. :lol **** this bi-polar, ringless, fat piece of shit.

Maybe he saw game 1, 2,3, 5, and most of game 6 of the finals.

[Rasheed1]

Barkley's an idiot... There is plenty Lebron can do to reach top 5 status..

[tazb]

Maybe he saw game 1, 2,3, 5, and most of game 6 of the finals.

I'm sure he watched Game 7 too, you know, where the superstars rise and carry the team to the finish line. Not where so called superstars go 6-24.

[OmniStrife]

He also said just a few months ago that LeBron was better than Jordan. :lol **** this bi-polar, ringless, fat piece of shit.
Wow. So glad we didn't hire him as a GM. :facepalm

[Nuff Said]

I don't get it. During the series Barkley said Duncan was def top ten. What happened?

[Magic 32]

I'm sure he watched Game 7 too, you know, where the superstars rise and carry the team to the finish line. Not where so called superstars go 6-24.

Lebron finally hitting wide open jumpers. :eek:

Spurs brilliantly complex defensive scheme backfired :oldlol:..... after 6 games.

MJ would have killed these Spurs, just like Kobe did in 08 (with Bruce "shutting down Lebron" Bowen on the team).

[inclinerator]

oscar is not even top 10

[1987_Lakers]

http://youtu.be/Crhv9XrBgc4?t=7m15s

Barkley's untouchable top 5:

*Michael Jordan
*Oscar Robertson
*Wilt Chamberlain
*Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
*Bill Russell

:bowdown:

Barkley's remaining top 10 where Lebron established his place:

*Lebron James
*Kobe Bryant
*Magic Johnson
*Larry Bird
*Jerry West

:applause:

I actually like his list.
:oldlol:

[BoutPractice]

Oscar in the "definitive top 5" is the weak link in his argument that LeBron can't crack it.

The whole Oscar argument rests on:
- all-around "level of play" at his peak: subjective, but LeBron's not so lacking in this department that you couldn't argue in his favour.
- averaging a 30 point triple double: adjusted for pace, 2009 and 2010 LeBron most likely would've had similar stats.
- leading some of the best offenses of all time: okay, but so did Steve Nash (who is underrated, but still).
- winning 1 championship past his prime by feeding Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the post: LeBron won 2 in his prime.

[buddha]

Shaq and Duncan aren't Top 10?

I mean, Kobe is Top 10 but Shaquille O'Neal isn't? The man who won back-to-back-to-back Finals MVP. :oldlol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vCaZkULds

[BigTicket]

Oscar had great stats, but that's all he had. He never lead his team to a championship, and he only won the MVP once.

He's not even top 10, let alone an irreplaceable part of the top 5.

[KyleKong]

Shaq and Duncan aren't Top 10?

I mean, Kobe is Top 10 but Shaquille O'Neal isn't? The man who won back-to-back-to-back Finals MVP. :oldlol:

Charles believes he is the greatest Power Forward ever. No way he is putting Duncan in top 10.

Shaq and Charles always just taking shots at each other. :roll:

[Uncle Drew]

Charles believes he is the greatest Power Forward ever. No way he is putting Duncan in top 10.
Chuck said Duncan is the greatest power forward of all-time.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Barkley is a big mouth dumbass.

0 rings.

Stfu

[senelcoolidge]

I like his list too. It's pretty good.

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Oscar
Bill Russell

That's the way I would have ordered his top 5.

[GrapeApe]

I get that it's his opinion, but any top 10 list without Shaq and Duncan has no credibility.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Russell is overrated simply because of the rings.

Was a different era back then.

[LAZERUSS]

Russell is overrated simply because of the rings.

Was a different era back then.

So when do we start counting such things? After Bird-Magic? After MJ? After Kobe? After Lebron?

[dazzer87]

Barkley probably has $$$$ on the Spurs to win the series....

[FreezingTsmoove]

I get that it's his opinion, but any top 10 list without Shaq and Duncan has no credibility.

everyone on this list has a solid case over Duncan

[GrapeApe]

everyone on this list has a solid case over Duncan

Jerry West, Big O, and LeBron have no case over Duncan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Charles is wrong, obviously. LeBron certainly has the potential to be an unanimous "top 5" player.

[tikay0]

Maybe he saw game 1, 2,3, 5, and most of game 6 of the finals.

BURN!!!!!!!!!!!! :oldlol:

[COnDEMnED]

This is my top 11 as of now

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
LeBron
Hakeem
This is a pretty good list. Only thing I might flip is Bird and Wilt.

[Jailblazers7]

Meh, Chuck changes his mind all the time. I appreciate that he wears his opinions on his sleeve but one day he thinks Lebron compares well to Jordan and the next Mike is unquestionably better.

I'm sure he would give a different top 10 if you asked him the same question tomorrow.

[Scholar]

If that list is meant to be literal, how can anyone put LeBron over the likes of Kobe, Magic & Bird. It's funny how quickly people tend to forget what players have down historically. Because LBJ won back-to-back titles in 3 Finals in a row, it suddenly makes him better than Kobe, who did the same thing?
I'll never understand that shit. It's truly a "what-have-you-done-for-me-recently" mentality.

Let's also not even think about Shaquille O'Neal aka 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs.

[LAZERUSS]

If that list is meant to be literal, how can anyone out LeBron over the likes of Kobe, Magic & Bird. It's funny how quickly people tend to forget what players have down historically. Because LBJ won back-to-back titles in 3 Finals in a row, it suddenly makes him better than Kobe, who did the same thing?
I'll never understand that shit. It's truly a "what-have-you-done-for-me-recently" mentality.

Lebron's ten years stacks up well against Bird's 13 years.

[Element]

Where are Shaq and Duncan

Why is Kobe ahead of them?

And why the fawk is LeBron ahead of both and Kobe?

:facepalm :no:

[2010splash]

Barkley is a flip-flopping wackjob. Just a year ago he said he believed LeBron would pass Jordan as GOAT.

Jordan may never be passed, though I wouldn't say it's impossible for LeBron to do so. However, mentioning Oscar Robertson in the same sentence as LeBron?:roll:

And Wilt, Kareem and Russell are definitely passable. Better than 95% chance LeBron passes all of those three and sits firmly at the #2 spot all time. LeBron is already a top 5 all time. Quit denying the obvious.

1. Jordan
2-4. Wilt/Kareem/Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10-11. Kobe/Hakeem

[fpliii]

He'll have to be extraordinary to jump Russ/Jordan (the only two strong GOAT candidates in my book), but everyone else is in play. Not that he can't, but it's a tough sell.

[CavaliersFTW]

Barkley is a flip-flopping wackjob. Just a year ago he said he believed LeBron would pass Jordan as GOAT.

Jordan may never be passed, though I wouldn't say it's impossible for LeBron to do so. However, mentioning Oscar Robertson in the same sentence as LeBron?:roll:

And Wilt, Kareem and Russell are definitely passable. Better than 95% chance LeBron passes all of those three and sits firmly at the #2 spot all time. LeBron is already a top 5 all time. Quit denying the obvious.

1. Jordan
2-4. Wilt/Kareem/Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10-11. Kobe/Hakeem
:oldlol: how many records is he gonna have to DESTROY in order to pass Wilt? Wilt still has over 90 records. How many titles is he gonna have to accumulate to pass Bill Russell? He's still 9 shy of big Bill... How long is his career going to have to be and how many total points will he need to pass Kareem?

He's not passing any of the bigs. Even up to this point in their retrospective careers their impact on the game was bigger than his.

[NumberSix]

Barkley is a flip-flopping wackjob. Just a year ago he said he believed LeBron would pass Jordan as GOAT.

Jordan may never be passed, though I wouldn't say it's impossible for LeBron to do so. However, mentioning Oscar Robertson in the same sentence as LeBron?:roll:

And Wilt, Kareem and Russell are definitely passable. Better than 95% chance LeBron passes all of those three and sits firmly at the #2 spot all time. LeBron is already a top 5 all time. Quit denying the obvious.

1. Jordan
2-4. Wilt/Kareem/Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10-11. Kobe/Hakeem
What exactly made Jordan pass Wilt/Kareem/Russell? :confusedshrug:

[Solefade]

If you listen further in the interview, Charles also thinks he's bigger than LeBron and would have had no problem scoring on LeBron.

Dude is 2 inches aller and weighs 10-15lbs more, more athletic. :


Dude just said on "Open Court" a few months ago that he was a better all around player than MJ.

:facepalm

Barkley obviously thinks this small ball thing that the Spurs/Heat are doing is stupid also.

[Soundwave]

What exactly made Jordan pass Wilt/Kareem/Russell? :confusedshrug:

He has more titles than Kareem as the no.1 option and far more than Wilt. He has less than Russell, but has more individual accolades and trophies to go with a sh*t-ton of championships.

And he's probably the best clutch/crunch time player in NBA history on top of having the highest ppg average in NBA history and the highest ppg average in NBA playoff history and the most individual scoring titles.

Team wise and individual wise combined he just has the best resume overall. He combines the individual dominance of Wilt with the team dominance of Russell.

[Flash31]

What exactly made Jordan pass Wilt/Kareem/Russell? :confusedshrug:

Nothing he hasnt

The ESPN and Nike HYPE DID
REAL GOOD For HIM Though

Barkley and Shaq and Magic played with Jordan,so he s the goat to them
along with nike and espn constantly drilling it into peoples heads

while on the other hand you go further back,talk to people from
the 50,60s,70,even 80s

those three are the goat depending on the person


its like Today where people see LeBron,Kobe as goat material
or in 2000s Shaq and Duncan

[Flash31]

He has more titles than Kareem as the no.1 option and far more than Wilt. He has less than Russell, but has more individual accolades and trophies to go with a sh*t-ton of championships.

And he's probably the best clutch/crunch time player in NBA history on top of having the highest ppg average in NBA history and the highest ppg average in NBA playoff history and the most individual scoring titles.

Team wise and individual wise combined he just has the best resume overall.


team wise Russell has more accolades than anybody else,
individual wise Wilt has the most accolades
with Kareem as 2nd

You cant take into acount finals mvps bc if you did,Bill Russell would have at least 8 if they kept track

and Wilt and Russell would also be num 1 and num 2 in blocks per game and total blocks

Kareem has 6 MVPS,6 Championships,38000 pts
avg 20,10 for his career

Wilt is tied with Jordan for most pts per game

Wilt is num 1 in rbs,30000 pts,
has over 100 records,avg 50,25 in a season
has CAREER AVG OF 30,23.5


LIKE i SAID

The Nike and ESPN HYPE Machine did real good

Russell is tops in defensive team selections,is the goat defender,and won
11 RINGS IN 13 YEARS

If anybdy even won half that amount people will call them goat material or goat
but he won
11 in 13 YEARS

THATS 5 More than Jordan
Thats basically being in the Finals for ALL OF JORDANS BULLS CAREER
His team won 8 STRAIGHT Finals

[Soundwave]

team wise Russell has more accolades than anybody else,
individual wise Wilt has the most accolades
with Kareem as 2nd

You cant take into acount finals mvps bc if you did,Bill Russell would have at least 8 if they kept track

and Wilt and Russell would also be num 1 and num 2 in blocks per game and total blocks

Kareem has 6 MVPS,6 Championships,38000 pts
avg 20,10 for his career

Wilt is tied with Jordan for most pts per game

Wilt is num 1 in rbs,30000 pts,
has over 100 records,avg 50,25 in a season
has CAREER AVG OF 30,23.5


LIKE i SAID

The Nike and ESPN HYPE Machine did real good

You don't win 6 championships as the no.1 option and 10x scoring championships (more than anyone) and have the highest PPG in NBA history based on hype.

To me, I base the GOAT on several criteria

Individual Dominance: You gotta dominante the game individually. And it can't just be "oh he was a great team player". This means scoring titles, being able to dominate on the offensive end for one. Because other sports GOAT places heavy emphasis on this, ie: hockey with Wayne Gretzky, Gretzky has so many individual point records. Jordan and Wilt are the closest basketball equivalents to Gretzky, Russell, no way.

Team Dominance: You gotta have the dynasty of course. 2 rings minimum, 3 are is OK, 4 is nice, 5 you're getting there, 6 or more ... there's only 2 guys in NBA history that can lay claim to being the no.1 option there and that's Jordan and Russell, and I'm not even sure if Russell really was the no.1 option on every Celtics team.

Clutch Ability: Basketball is a sport about manhood. Do you rise up to big occassions or do you shrink like a b*tch? Are your playoff numbers better than your regular season numbers? Did you ever get embarrassed in the NBA Finals?

All-Around Ability: Did you maximize your talent on the basketball court? Are you a dominant factor on both ends of the court? Are you a good shooter? Rebounder? Playmaker? (all things being relative to the player's position of course).

To me, Jordan is the only one that would rank as a great player in all four criteria.

I can't give it to Russell just because he didn't dominate with the scoring titles and what not, it's the Gretzky-factor, if you are going to represent the NBA as GOAT, then you have to have individual dominance.

Because Jordan has a ton of team stuff too.

Wilt has the individual stuff, Russell has the team stuff, but Jordan in my books is the only one that has both. To me it's the best overall resume.

[Flash31]

Barkley is a flip-flopping wackjob. Just a year ago he said he believed LeBron would pass Jordan as GOAT.

Jordan may never be passed, though I wouldn't say it's impossible for LeBron to do so. However, mentioning Oscar Robertson in the same sentence as LeBron?:roll:

And Wilt, Kareem and Russell are definitely passable. Better than 95% chance LeBron passes all of those three and sits firmly at the #2 spot all time. LeBron is already a top 5 all time. Quit denying the obvious.

1. Jordan
2-4. Wilt/Kareem/Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10-11. Kobe/Hakeem


NO,NO,NO

IN ABSOLUTELY NO WAY SHAPE or FORM
IS LEBRON TOP 5 RIGHT NOW.

When his career is done yeah,he could be,
but right now,absolutely not.

See just like Jordan,Nike and ESPN has pushed that and people believe it
as of right now

Wilt,Kareem,Russell,Jordan,Magic,Bird,Kobe,Shaq,Du ncan
are all clearly better than him resume and career wise so far

Can he become top 65 or goat,yeah
is he top 5 right now,HELL NO.

even in this era that hes been a part of

Shaq,Kobe,Duncan are all better than him career and resume wise

3 Finals MVPS,4 Rings 28000 pts
3 Finals MVPS,4 rings
2 Finals MVPS,5 Rings 30000 pts

hes not blowing them away in stats or breaking records like Wilt to justify even in the conversation,
he has 2 rings,he hasnt dominated like Wilt,or Shaq for that matter

2 Finals MVPS,2 Rings

he has to get 4 rings or have better stats than them for his career and resume wise to justify that

[TheCorporation]

Same, some peoples lists make me cringe but when I heard his I was actually impressed. Obviously there are other players that I feel could come and go within a top 5/10 list but his is pretty good, I could see a very solid argument for all of those players how he listed them.

You can make a solid argument for Oscar or Jerry West over Shaq...?

Ready, go.

[NumberSix]

arbitrary made up rules
I can make up my own criteria too.

Perhaps I think a DPOY is more valuable than a scoring title.

What makes a scoring title so important? Why do you automatically value that more than a rebounding title or an assist title?

Why do you automatically value offense more than defense? Jordan is better than Russell offensively but Russell is better than Jordan defensively. Why do you automatically give the edge to offensive value?


Why did you chose 6 titles as the magic number? Why not 5? Why not 7? What if I say it's 7 championships? Jordan is 1 short.


Seems to me that people who have been lead to believe that Jordan is far and away the undisputed best ever just craft their criteria around whatever Jordan's resume happens to consist of.

[Flash31]

You don't win 6 championships as the no.1 option and 10x scoring championships (more than anyone) and have the highest PPG in NBA history based on hype.

To me, I base the GOAT on several criteria

Individual Dominance: You gotta dominante the game individually. And it can't just be "oh he was a great team player". This means scoring titles, being able to dominate on the offensive end for one. Because other sports GOAT places heavy emphasis on this, ie: hockey with Wayne Gretzky, Gretzky has so many individual point records. Jordan and Wilt are the closest basketball equivalents to Gretzky, Russell, no way.

Team Dominance: You gotta have the dynasty of course. 2 rings minimum, 3 are is OK, 4 is nice, 5 you're getting there, 6 or more ... there's only 2 guys in NBA history that can lay claim to being the no.1 option there and that's Jordan and Russell, and I'm not even sure if Russell really was the no.1 option on every Celtics team.

Clutch Ability: Basketball is a sport about manhood. Do you rise up to big occassions or do you shrink like a b*tch? Are your playoff numbers better than your regular season numbers? Did you ever get embarrassed in the NBA Finals?

All-Around Ability: Did you maximize your talent on the basketball court? Are you a dominant factor on both ends of the court? Are you a good shooter? Rebounder? Playmaker? (all things being relative to the player's position of course).

To me, Jordan is the only one that would rank as a great player in all four criteria.

I can't give it to Russell just because he didn't dominate with the scoring titles and what not, it's the Gretzky-factor, the NBA GOAT has to have some individual sizzle too, it can't just be team stuff.

Because Jordan has a ton of team stuff too.

Wilt has the individual stuff, Russell has the team stuff, but Jordan in my books is the only one that has both. To me it's the best overall resume.


indivdual dominance
Wilt,Shaq

team dominace
Russell,Jordan

clutch
Bird,Magic,Russelll,West,Jordan

All-Around abilty maximizing your talents

Wilt
goat scorer,quickest to 30000 pts,tied with Jordan in pts per game,
GOAT Rebounder,and 2nd best Defensive Center of all time,and could pass

same with Russell


Russell has 11 rings-5 5 more than Jordan
Russell won 8 straight-Jordan won 3 straight twice
Russell has one of the most all-d selections,and is considered GOAT DEFENDER
Russell went to the Finals 13 times-Jordan 6
Russell avg 23,23 for his career


Wilt had it all,scoring titles,rebounding titles,defense,dominance

THERE IS NOBODY MORE DOMINANT,MORE Prolific in their scoring,than Wilt

Wilt is NUM 1 in RBS,30000 pts,quickest to it.Has an avg of 30,24 on 55%+%fg

and if they kept track would be num 1 in blocks,
and is basically the NBA Record Book

Kareem has more pts than Jordan,same amount of titles,has 6 MVPS,
AVG 20,10 FOR HIS CAREER,
so Kareem has it all

Individual stats,check,team stats,check,clutch check,all around abilty check
so What constitutes Jordan over him

The only thing Jordan has over Russell is more pts scored and steals
while Russell has 11 Rings,num 2 in Rbs,is known throughout history as the GOAT DEFENDER


No matter how you put it,even if you somehow say some Celtics were better than him for 3 finals at most,
He still has 8 Finals MVPs and 11 rings then
so still way way better than Jordan



like I said,NIKE AND ESPN DID GREAT

[CavaliersFTW]

I can make up my own criteria too.

Perhaps I think a DPOY is more valuable than a scoring title.

What makes a scoring title so important? Why do you automatically value that more than a rebounding title or an assist title?

Why do you automatically value offense more than defense? Jordan is better than Russell offensively but Russell is better than Jordan defensively. Why do you automatically give the edge to offensive value?


Why did you chose 6 titles as the magic number? Why not 5? Why not 7? What if I say it's 7 championships? Jordan is 1 short.


Seems to me that people who have been lead to believe that Jordan is far and away the undisputed best ever just craft their criteria around whatever Jordan's resume happens to consist of.
I don't agree with you with everything, but this I agree with.

[Soundwave]

I can make up my own criteria too.

Perhaps I think a DPOY is more valuable than a scoring title.

What makes a scoring title so important? Why do you automatically value that more than a rebounding title or an assist title?

Why do you automatically value offense more than defense? Jordan is better than Russell offensively but Russell is better than Jordan defensively. Why do you automatically give the edge to offensive value?


Why did you chose 6 titles as the magic number? Why not 5? Why not 7? What if I say it's 7 championships? Jordan is 1 short.


Seems to me that people who have been lead to believe that Jordan is far and away the undisputed best ever just craft their criteria around whatever Jordan's resume happens to consist of.

Anyone can make up criteria, I just laid out what I feel personally.

I think Jordan has the most balanced overall resume of individual dominance + team dominance and I think rationally it's pretty hard to argue against it. I'm not just looking at the basketball GOAT either, I'm looking at other sports too, like hockey and baseball, to represent basketball as the GOAT compared to the GOATs in hockey, baseball, etc. you can't just have been a "good" offensive player. You had to be a dominant one.

Right off the bat though if we're talking "greatest winner" then Jordan and Russell are the only ones that have 6 titles as the no.1 option in NBA history, which narrows things down pretty damn quick.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

indivdual dominance
Wilt,Shaq

team dominace
Russell,Jordan

clutch
Bird,Magic,Russelll,West,Jordan

All-Around abilty maximizing your talents

Wilt
goat scorer,quickest to 30000 pts,tied with Jordan in pts per game,
GOAT Rebounder,and 2nd best Defensive Center of all time,and could pass

same with Russell


Russell has 11 rings-5 5 more than Jordan
Russell won 8 straight-Jordan won 3 straight twice
Russell has one of the most all-d selections,and is considered GOAT DEFENDER
Russell went to the Finals 13 times-Jordan 6
Russell avg 23,23 for his career


Wilt had it all,scoring titles,rebounding titles,defense,dominance

THERE IS NOBODY MORE DOMINANT,MORE Prolific in their scoring,than Wilt

Wilt is NUM 1 in RBS,30000 pts,quickest to it.Has an avg of 30,24 on 55%+%fg

and if they kept track would be num 1 in blocks,
and is basically the NBA Record Book

Kareem has more pts than Jordan,same amount of titles,has 6 MVPS,
AVG 20,10 FOR HIS CAREER,
so Kareem has it all

Individual stats,check,team stats,check,clutch check,all around abilty check
so What constitutes Jordan over him

The only thing Jordan has over Russell is more pts scored and steals
while Russell has 11 Rings,num 2 in Rbs,is known throughout history as the GOAT DEFENDER


No matter how you put it,even if you somehow say some Celtics were better than him for 3 finals at most,
He still has 8 Finals MVPs and 11 rings then
so still way way better than Jordan

Any way you slice it, MJ STILL has the best combination of stats, accomplishments, honors, records, mvps, finals mvps, and rings of anyone to ever play in the NBA.

[CavaliersFTW]

Any way you slice it, MJ STILL has the best combination of stats, accomplishments, honors, records, mvps, finals mvps, and rings of anyone to ever play in the NBA.
Nah, not true. I can slice GOAT criteria to heavily favor Wilt... or Russell... or even if I'm looking for "balance" I can sell Kareem's resume as better than MJ's. MJ is the "GOAT" because people WANT his accolades to mean more than other GOAT-level players. But the simple fact is, other GOAT-level players have done things Jordan never did, and for just that simple fact they can be made to look better if those things happen to be what one decides is very important on a GOAT resume.

[Soundwave]

Nah, not true. I can slice GOAT criteria to heavily favor Wilt... or Russell... or even if I'm looking for "balance" I can sell Kareem's resume as better than MJ's. MJ is the "GOAT" because people WANT his accolades to mean more than other GOAT-level players. But the simple fact is, other GOAT-level players have done things Jordan never did, and for just that simple fact they can be made to look better if those things happen to be what one decides is very important on a GOAT resume.

It's between Jordan and Russ, I really can't give it to Wilt with only 1 championship, and he wasn't even the no.1 option on that team by that stage of his career. It's just not good enough for GOAT.

Generally he was known as a career loser, a lot of people pegged Jordan the same way early in his career, until he started to pile on championship after championship.

Jordan, Russell, and Kareem are the only GOAT candidates that have 6 or more titles. Of those three, only Jordan and Russell have 6 as the no.1 option. Again that narrows it down fairly quickly.

Wilt honestly needed to have at least 2 or 3 as the no.1 option.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nah, not true. I can slice GOAT criteria to heavily favor Wilt... or Russell... or even if I'm looking for "balance" I can sell Kareem's resume as better than MJ's. MJ is the "GOAT" because people WANT his accolades to mean more than other GOAT-level players. But the simple fact is, other GOAT-level players have done things Jordan never did, and for just that simple fact they can be made to look better if those things happen to be what one decides is very important on a GOAT resume.

You can, and you will come up short, for a number of reasons (things out of Wilt and Russell's control). I don't have a problem with anyone subscribing to the idea that guys like Russell or Kareem are the GOAT, I'm just saying.

[NumberSix]

Right off the bat though if we're talking "greatest winner" then Jordan and Russell are the only ones that have 6 titles as the no.1 option in NBA history, which narrows things down pretty damn quick.
Not sure what you mean by "no.1 option" but I'll assume it means best player.

Again, why do you arbitrarily pick 6 titles? Why not 7? Or 8? Why is Exactly 6 titles the cutoff point.

Russell has at least 8 as the best player on the team, so why is Jordan even in the conversation?

[Soundwave]

Not sure what you mean by "no.1 option" but I'll assume it means best player.

Again, why do you arbitrarily pick 6 titles? Why not 7? Or 8? Why is Exactly 6 titles the cutoff point.

Russell has at least 8 as the best player on the team, so why is Jordan even in the conversation?

It's not arbitrary. Of the top 10-15 players that most people agree on as being the best, only three have 6 or more titles. It's a rare level of team dominance even among great players. Many have 2/3/4, Magic is even close with 5, but 6 is where the herd starts to really thin out.

So I start there.

Of those three -- Jordan, Russ, Kareem, only 2 have six titles as the best player.

Of those two -- Jordan and Russ, MJ is close in titles, but has 10x scoring titles (the most in NBA history), the highest ppg in NBA history, the highest playoff ppg in NBA history, and generally speaking more individual accolades than Russ.

When you combine team dominance and individual dominance I just think it's pretty damn hard to build a case against Jordan.]

If a hockey fan is telling me Gretzky is the greatest athlete, and putting forth his individual dominance + 4 championships, then I have to counter with Jordan, not Russell to represent basketball, that's also a criteria I look at. The GOAT should represent the most overall dominance of the sport to represent basketball.

[NumberSix]

It's not arbitrary. Of the top 10-15 players that most people agree on as being the best, only three have 6 or more titles. It's a rare level of team dominance even among great players. Many have 2/3/4, Magic is even close with 5, but 6 is where the herd starts to really thin out.

So I start there.

Of those three -- Jordan, Russ, Kareem, only 2 have six titles as the best player.

Of those two -- Jordan and Russ, MJ is close in titles, but has 10x scoring titles (the most in NBA history), the highest ppg in NBA history, the highest playoff ppg in NBA history, and generally speaking more individual accolades than Russ.
How are Jordan and Russell close in titles? Russell almost has him doubled.

Anyway, why should i give a shit about Jordan's scoring accolades? Why should I value his scoring over Russell's defense?

[Soundwave]

How are Jordan and Russell close in titles? Russell almost has him doubled.

Anyway, why should i give a shit about Jordan's scoring accolades? Why should I value his scoring over Russell's defense?

I'm not saying you have to do anything, lol. I'm just saying for myself and a lot of people, it's between Jordan and Russell, and Jordan is the one chosen by many to represent the sport of basketball as GOAT because he has an unbelievably rare balance of individual and team dominance.

He is in effect the closest thing the sport has seen to a representative hybrid of Russell (team dominance, all around play) and Wilt (individual dominance, scoring feats). Because that really used to be the big debate in basketball, Russell's team dominance vs. Wilts unreal individual feats. Well Jordan basically came along and combined both.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not saying you have to do anything, lol. I'm just saying for myself and a lot of people, it's between Jordan and Russell, and Jordan is the one chosen by many to represent the sport of basketball as GOAT because he has an unbelievably rare balance of individual and team dominance.

Kareem too, if you count college ball. I personally don't.

[NumberSix]

Kareem too, if you count college ball. I personally don't.
Why would anybody?:confusedshrug:

[niko]

I can make up my own criteria too.

Perhaps I think a DPOY is more valuable than a scoring title.

What makes a scoring title so important? Why do you automatically value that more than a rebounding title or an assist title?

Why do you automatically value offense more than defense? Jordan is better than Russell offensively but Russell is better than Jordan defensively. Why do you automatically give the edge to offensive value?


Why did you chose 6 titles as the magic number? Why not 5? Why not 7? What if I say it's 7 championships? Jordan is 1 short.


Seems to me that people who have been lead to believe that Jordan is far and away the undisputed best ever just craft their criteria around whatever Jordan's resume happens to consist of.

What has Lebron accomplished that Jordan has not? Playing so far under his ability at times that we all wonder if he is psychologically troubled? Allowing weak teams to hang with him by refusing to take over? The unsuccesful "unselfish" pass at the end of the game?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why would anybody?:confusedshrug:

You'd be surprised. I've been in a number of threads where people use Kareem's play (accolades) at UCLA to slight Jordan.

For example:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165048

[Flash31]

It's between Jordan and Russ, I really can't give it to Wilt with only 1 championship, and he wasn't even the no.1 option on that team by that stage of his career. It's just not good enough for GOAT.

Generally he was known as a career loser, a lot of people pegged Jordan the same way early in his career, until he started to pile on championship after championship.

Jordan, Russell, and Kareem are the only GOAT candidates that have 6 or more titles. Of those three, only Jordan and Russell have 6 as the no.1 option. Again that narrows it down fairly quickly.

Wilt honestly needed to have at least 2 or 3 as the no.1 option.


WILT HAS 2 RINGS,Not 1

and whats this SEVERELY Arbitrary stat of 6 Rings

ok in that Case the GOAT has to have over 15000 Rebounds
or avg at least 20 rebounds
boom the GOAT is Russell or Wilt

or have about the most defensive impact,blocks,rebounds,defense
boom Wilt and Russell

or how about quickest to 30000 pts
yep
Wilt

or here how about taking their best career avg their first 7 years

Wilt avg 38,25 on 60%
boom GOAT

or you can narrow it down even more
the goat is a person whos been to 7 Finals or more
Kareem,Magic,Russell

or how about the goat collection of stats
pts,rbs,ast,stls,fg%
Wilt is UNDISPUTEDLY GOAT


Arbitratry stats like 6 ring,why 6 why not at least one or why not an even 5,or how about 10



Man ESPN,NIKE REALLY DID THEIR Magic

[Ne 1]

He has more titles than Kareem as the no.1 option He didn't have the great situation Jordan did for most of his prime. To argue "rings as the best player " you have to assume they had equal opportunities to win rings in their youth when this clearly was not the case. Jordan has a case over Kareem but "rings as the best player" is not a strong reason to argue him over Kareem. Let's be real: put Kareem on the Bulls from 1985-1998. How many "rings as the best player" does he win? He sure as hell would win more than 3.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for his absolute prime years, whereas Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, rings are rings and Kareem won 6 rings, 3 of them clearly as the best player, he remained the go-to guy until the 5th title. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!). No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

Seriously why do people cling to this "rings as the best player" bullshit? Even so Kareem was the best player for his first three and probably the fourth. Even for his fifth he averaged 22/7 as part of a balanced three-headed Magic/Kareem/Worthy attack. Only during his final championship year could he fairly be described as a "role player" and even then his presences alone was still huge along with his production being solid much like Duncan on the Spurs in recent years.

In terms of legacy if you want to use the faux category "rings as the best player" then you could say Jordan edges out Kareem, but that's only really because Kareem didn't get the casts or breaks he needed. It's definitely not because Jordan is the better player. I mean would anyone really take prime Jordan over prime Kareem, if you are starting off a team?

I consider Jordan a little "lucky" in the way/time his career was set up, when you look at the careers of Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Hakeem...you can see why. Kareem's legacy almost seems like it came down to that one game, where his teammates couldn

[Soundwave]

I honestly would put Kareem over Russell, but it's close and that's me personally, I can understand someone else not doing so. Kareem had great longevity.

I think once you get to like 5 titles, that proves you were one hell of a winner, the discussion can turn to other factors in that case.

6 or more is pretty rare air of course.

[Flash31]

What has Lebron accomplished that Jordan has not? Playing so far under his ability at times that we all wonder if he is psychologically troubled? Allowing weak teams to hang with him by refusing to take over? The unsuccesful "unselfish" pass at the end of the game?


hes not talkng about LeBron there
what with the defensive stats thing and all
thats Russell,Wilt


LeBron is nowhere close to GOAT yet,yet he could be after adding on to his resume

though


In what way is Jordan Better than Russell,Wilt,or Kareem

Wilt has him beat in stats by a huge margin,
Russell has 11 rings
Kareem has 6 rings,6 MVPS,played for 20 yrs avg 20,10
and is 1st in pts and has over 7500 more

[Soundwave]

hes not talkng about LeBron there
what with the defensive stats thing and all
thats Russell,Wilt


LeBron is nowhere close to GOAT yet,yet he could be after adding on to his resume

though


In what way is Jordan Better than Russell,Wilt,or Kareem

Wilt has him beat in stats by a huge margin,
Russell has 11 rings
Kareem has 6 rings,6 MVPS,played for 20 yrs avg 20,10
and is 1st in pts and has over 7500 more

Well yeah if Wilt + Russell + Kareem were one person, they would be better than Jordan, except those are separate resumes you're talking about. :lol

Jordan has the best balance of team championships as the best player, MVPs, scoring titles, playoff dominance, etc.

To really eclipse Jordan, you have to combine Russell or Kareem's titles with Wilt's individual glitz, which pretty much says it all. You shouldn't have to resort to doing that at all, one guy should clearly on his own be able to best in both team and individual categories alone.

[lilblingy]

Lebron can be top 5 if things goes right. I mean, he is 28 years old with 4MVPs, 2 rings / 2 FMVPs (still cant believe the Spurs ****ing choked.). Only real threat to Lebron right now (and the next 5 years when he'd still be in top form) is Durant if OKC can somehow find a way to get replace that bum Perkins for a more serviceable big man.

[niko]

hes not talkng about LeBron there
what with the defensive stats thing and all
thats Russell,Wilt


LeBron is nowhere close to GOAT yet,yet he could be after adding on to his resume

though


In what way is Jordan Better than Russell,Wilt,or Kareem

Wilt has him beat in stats by a huge margin,
Russell has 11 rings
Kareem has 6 rings,6 MVPS,played for 20 yrs avg 20,10
and is 1st in pts and has over 7500 more

I'm not going to argue small things, Russell I didn't see but his teams were ridiculously stacked and he didn't really score much. Kareem is an argument someone who never saw him would make, he wasn't Jordan. PERIOD. And Wilt was the greatest at everything but even when he had the better team he had trouble winning the big one. That does count against you. Lebron won some, lost some and it counts against him.

When Jordan was favored, he won. Period. Better team, you were totally ****ed and it was over. You weren't even going to get the possibility of closing him out.

Lebron, he takes games off here and there for reasons i'll never fathom.

I have no qualms taking Jordan WAY over Lebron and this postseason I was more than fair with him, watching him squash people, ready to watch him shit all over Indiana and he just stopped at times. Decided to faciliate to terrified teammates as a first option even when the situation dictated he not do so.

[Kews1]

i swear on the NBA website, i forget what its called but its the chat thing with Reggie, Webber, Ernie, Chuck, Kenny, Shaq etc etc, that Chuck said something along the lines that Lebron could be better than Michael (i dont agree) but **** hes not a very good source if he flip-flops all the time

[Flash31]

I'm not going to argue small things, Russell I didn't see but his teams were ridiculously stacked and he didn't really score much. Kareem is an argument someone who never saw him would make, he wasn't Jordan. PERIOD. And Wilt was the greatest at everything but even when he had the better team he had trouble winning the big one. That does count against you. Lebron won some, lost some and it counts against him.

When Jordan was favored, he won. Period. Better team, you were totally ****ed and it was over. You weren't even going to get the possibility of closing him out.

Lebron, he takes games off here and there for reasons i'll never fathom.

I have no qualms taking Jordan WAY over Lebron and this postseason I was more than fair with him, watching him squash people, ready to watch him shit all over Indiana and he just stopped at times. Decided to faciliate to terrified teammates as a first option even when the situation dictated he not do so.


"someone who never saw him",and Jordan WASNT KAREEM PERIOD.
soo people that played with Kareem and fans and people and stars back then didnt?,bc they say Kareem was GOAT
You probably only watched Jordan Highlights or been watching ESPN alot and you form your opininons off of them



Wilt was rarely if ever favored over Bill Russells teams


So Russell is downplayed and criticisized for his teammates bc he won,but
Jordan is not,
Since when did Jordan win when his team wasnt stacked,never

and wait hold up
you praise Jordan for winning when they were expected to and favored to
but criticisize and downgrade Russell for winning



what kind of backwards convulted logic is that



and is scoring the only thing that matters then in goat talk,
really Russell was GOAT Defender and avg 23 Rebounds
I can spin it to where defense is the only thing that matters


Though I see,you spin things how you see them and want them

[Kews1]

Chucks a idiot who flip-flops fool, heres a link to a vid where he says Kobe is top 5

HE EVEN SAYS KOBE IS BETTER THAN KAREEM ABDUL JABBAR!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhX2YMgNvs

HERES A VIDEO WHERE CHUCK SAYS LEBRON CAN BE BETTER THAN JORDAN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m3Nlee28so

Lebron cannot be better than Jordan, but Barkley is not an authoritative person to talk about shit.

[Kews1]

Thread OVER< BARKLEY IS A FOOL

[Flash31]

Well yeah if Wilt + Russell + Kareem were one person, they would be better than Jordan, except those are separate resumes you're talking about. :lol

Jordan has the best balance of team championships as the best player, MVPs, scoring titles, playoff dominance, etc.

To really eclipse Jordan, you have to combine Russell or Kareem's titles with Wilt's individual glitz, which pretty much says it all. You shouldn't have to resort to doing that at all, one guy should clearly on his own be able to best in both team and individual categories alone.



yeah I men its not like Russell ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS JORDAN In NUMBER OF RINGS,DOMINANCE,DEFENSE,REBOUNDS

OH wait he does

11 rings>6

Russell avg 22,23 Jordan 30 pts,didnt even get 10 rbs

Russell GOAT DEFENDER

Even Wilt

30,24 on 55%+ BEATS JORDAN CAREER AVG BY A HUGE MARGIN
Defense WILT IS BETTER
REBOUNDS WILT
SHOT SELECTION WILT
WILT AVG 10 ASSISTS in 1 Season,Jordan didnt
FG%
OVERALL DOMINANCE


so YEAH,jORDAN WOULD HAVE TO AVG 10 MORE REBOUNDS,OR PLAY BETTER DEFENSE OR BE WAY BETTER IN Individual Stats to
to even have a chance to be better,but he cant

so nope

[CavaliersFTW]

yeah I men its not like Russell ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS JORDAN In NUMBER OF RINGS,DOMINANCE,DEFENSE,REBOUNDS

OH wait he does

11 rings>6

Russell avg 22,23 Jordan 30 pts,didnt even get 10 rbs

Russell GOAT DEFENDER

Even Wilt

30,24 on 55%+ BEATS JORDAN CAREER AVG BY A HUGE MARGIN
Defense WILT IS BETTER
REBOUNDS WILT
SHOT SELECTION WILT
WILT AVG 10 ASSISTS in 1 Season,Jordan didnt
FG%
OVERALL DOMINANCE


so YEAH,jORDAN WOULD HAVE TO AVG 10 MORE REBOUNDS,OR PLAY BETTER DEFENSE OR BE WAY BETTER IN Individual Stats to
to even have a chance to be better,but he cant

so nope
b-b-b-but those don't count cause ESPN Analysts said Jordan is GOAT cause of "balance" :confusedshrug:

[DStebb716]

To say that there's no way he can pass players on that list is ignorant. Of course he can. How did they get there? By passing those that were there before him. If LeBron keeps playing at this level for 5+ more years and gets two more championships, he's absolutely in the top five all-time.

[D.J.]

The 5 spot would probably be Magic or Bird. Comparing the three:


MVP's
LeBron- 4
Magic- 3
Bird- 3

Finals MVPs
LeBron- 2
Magic- 3
Bird- 2

All-NBA 1st teams
LeBron- 7
Magic- 9
Bird- 9

All-Defensive 1st teams
LeBron- 5
Magic- 0
Bird- 0

All-Defensive 2nd teams
LeBron- 0
Magic- 0
Bird- 3


Another 2 seasons or so, LeBron should be in top 5 talks assuming he keeps up a similar level of play.

[Mr. Jabbar]

not a turrible list at all

[2010splash]

:oldlol: how many records is he gonna have to DESTROY in order to pass Wilt? Wilt still has over 90 records. How many titles is he gonna have to accumulate to pass Bill Russell? He's still 9 shy of big Bill... How long is his career going to have to be and how many total points will he need to pass Kareem?

He's not passing any of the bigs. Even up to this point in their retrospective careers their impact on the game was bigger than his.
Just use completely random and different criteria for each player just because it suits them? A very dumb way to rank players. If we're going by records broken (Wilt), you can't rank Russell or Kareem that high. If we're going by "total points scored" (an irrelevant title that merely speaks to career longevity and not actual dominance, hence Malone's career points total), Russell isn't very high. If we're going by titles, nobody approaches Russell.

LeBron is well on his way to passing Wilt, Kareem and Russell. It's simply a matter of time. He never gets injured and is only 28. A career resume of 7 MVPs, 5 Finals MVPs, 5 titles and 7-9 Finals appearances is within his reach. That is GOAT material right there, and absolutely no worse than #2.

[2010splash]

NO,NO,NO

IN ABSOLUTELY NO WAY SHAPE or FORM
IS LEBRON TOP 5 RIGHT NOW.

When his career is done yeah,he could be,
but right now,absolutely not.

See just like Jordan,Nike and ESPN has pushed that and people believe it
as of right now

Wilt,Kareem,Russell,Jordan,Magic,Bird,Kobe,Shaq,Du ncan
are all clearly better than him resume and career wise so far

Can he become top 65 or goat,yeah
is he top 5 right now,HELL NO.

even in this era that hes been a part of

Shaq,Kobe,Duncan are all better than him career and resume wise

3 Finals MVPS,4 Rings 28000 pts
3 Finals MVPS,4 rings
2 Finals MVPS,5 Rings 30000 pts

hes not blowing them away in stats or breaking records like Wilt to justify even in the conversation,
he has 2 rings,he hasnt dominated like Wilt,or Shaq for that matter

2 Finals MVPS,2 Rings

he has to get 4 rings or have better stats than them for his career and resume wise to justify that
No, he does not need 4 rings to match those guys. It's only because you believe rings are the only things that matter in a player's legacy. For me, no fricking way does a 1-time MVP winner deserve to be ranked over a 4-time MVP winner. Kobe and Shaq are immediately ranked below LeBron.

I assume you are joking about Bird. Bird is probably the most overrated player on these boards. What does he have over LeBron besides 1 measly title. Does anyone rank Kobe over Wilt despite his 3 more titles? No, because of the massive gap in dominance. Just like that, LeBron is much more dominant than Bird or Magic and achieved consecutive MVP + Finals MVP seasons, which they couldn't do.

[brain drain]

Barkley's suffering from a ring inferiority complex.

Whenever he comes across somebody who manages to win a championship he feels the urge to let everybody know that everybody was much better 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

[D.J.]

Barkley's suffering from a ring inferiority complex.

Whenever he comes across somebody who manages to win a championship he feels the urge to let everybody know that everybody was much better 20, 30, or 40 years ago.


Barkley likely would have won in '93 if he and his team had a 'let's win' mentality rather than a 'let's be happy just to be here' mentality. He also had more than a decent shot each of the following 2 seasons if his team could close out games.

[Rose'sACL]

No, he does not need 4 rings to match those guys. It's only because you believe rings are the only things that matter in a player's legacy. For me, no fricking way does a 1-time MVP winner deserve to be ranked over a 4-time MVP winner. Kobe and Shaq are immediately ranked below LeBron.

I assume you are joking about Bird. Bird is probably the most overrated player on these boards. What does he have over LeBron besides 1 measly title. Does anyone rank Kobe over Wilt despite his 3 more titles? No, because of the massive gap in dominance. Just like that, LeBron is much more dominant than Bird or Magic and achieved consecutive MVP + Finals MVP seasons, which they couldn't do.
it is because people here think that athletic ability is a minus point for LeBron when it is clearly a plus point. Jordan was a real athletic freak himself. Most top players are freaks because of height or athletic abilities. I respect Bird more than i respect lebron because i think he did more than his athletic abilities suggested but if i am a GM, i am taking lebron over bird. Lebron could get away with more offensive fouls in the 80s and he already has learned to play better defense without reaching in and fouling, just think how good he would be with 80s rules and pace.

[TheCorporation]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2rp8i6t.jpg