Elimination Game Stats for MJ, Kobe, LBJ...

[WayOfWade]

MJ, Kobe, LBJ, Wade, & Duncan Elimination Game Stats

Elimination Game Stats – Michael Jordan: 6 Wins, 7 Losses
85’ G3 vs. MIL – 35 PTS, 8 RBS, 7 AST, 4 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 12/26 FG, 0/1 3P, 11/16 FT
85’ G4 vs. MIL – 29 PTS, 7 RBS, 5 AST, 2 STL, 2 BLK, 4 TOV, 6/16 FG, 0/2 3P, 17/20 FT
86’ G3 vs. BOS – 19 PTS, 10 RBS, 9 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK 5 TOV, 8/18 FG, 1/1 3P, 2/3 FT
87’ G3 vs. BOS – 30 PTS, 11 RBS, 7 AST 2 STL 1 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/30 FG, 0/1 3P, 12/14 FT
88’ G5 vs. CLE – 39 PTS, 4 RBS, 6 AST, 2 STL, 2 BLK, 7 TOV, 12/22 FG, 0/0 3P, 15/18 FT
88’ G5 vs. DET – 25 PTS, 8 RBS, 8 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 10/22 FG, 1/2 3P, 4/7 FT
89’ G5 vs. CLE – 44 PTS, 9 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 17/32 FG, 1/1 3P, 9/13 FT
89’ G6 vs. DET – 32 PTS, 4 RBS, 13 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK, 8 TOV, 13/26 FG, 1/2 3P, 5/12 FT
90’ G6 vs. DET – 29 PTS, 10 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 11/20 FG, 1/4 3P, 6/6 FT
90’ G7 vs. DET – 31 PTS, 8 RBS, 9 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 13/27 FG, 0/2 3P, 5/5 FT
92’ G7 vs. NYK – 42 PTS, 6 RBS, 4 AST, 3 STL, 0 BLK, 5 TOV, 15/29 FG, 0/0 3P, 12/13 FT
95’ G6 vs. ORL – 24 PTS, 9 RBS, 7 AST, 4 STL, 4 BLK, 6 TOV, 8/19 FG, 1/2 3P, 7/10 FT
98’ G7 vs. IND – 28 PTS, 9 RBS, 8 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/25 FG, 0/0 3P, 10/15 FT

Elimination Game Stats – Kobe Bryant: 9 Wins, 10 Losses
97’ G5 vs. UTA – 11 PTS, 2 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 1 TOV, 4/14 FG, 0/6 3P, 3/3 FT
98’ G4 vs. UTA – 6 PTS, 1 RBS, 0 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 2/2 FG, 0/0 3P, 2/2 FT
99’ G4 vs. SAS – 16 PTS, 5 RBS, 8 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 7/16 FG, 1/3 3P, 1/2 FT
00’ G5 vs. SAC – 17 PTS, 2 RBS, 6 AST, 0 STL, 3 BLK, 1 TOV, 7/16 FG, 1/5 3P, 2/2 FT
00’ G7 vs. POR – 25 PTS, 11 RBS, 7 AST, 0 STL, 4 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/19 FG, 1/4 3P, 6/12 FT
02’ G6 vs. SAC – 31 PTS, 11 RBS, 5 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 1 TOV, 10/20 FG, 0/0 3P, 11/11 FT
02’ G7 vs. SAC – 30 PTS, 10 RBS, 7 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 0 TOV, 10/26 FG, 2/3 3P, 8/10 FT
03’ G6 vs. SAS – 20 PTS, 2 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 7 TOV, 9/19 FG, 2/5 3P, 0/2 FT
04’ G5 vs. DET – 24 PTS, 3 RBS, 4 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 7/21 FG, 0/2 3P, 10/11 FT
06’ G7 vs. PHX – 24 PTS, 4 RBS, 1 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 8/16 FG, 4/8 3P, 4/5 FT
07’ G5 vs. PHX – 34 PTS, 4 RBS, 1 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 6 TOV, 13/33 FG, 2/8 3P, 6/7 FT
08’ G5 vs. BOS – 25 PTS, 7 RBS, 4 AST, 5 STL, 0 BLK, 6 TOV, 8/21 FG, 4/9 3P, 5/7 FT
08’ G6 vs. BOS – 22 PTS, 3 RBS, 1 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 7/22 FG, 3/9 3P 5/5 FT
09’ G7 vs. HOU – 14 PTS, 7 RBS, 5 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK, 1 TOV, 4/12 FG, 1/4 3P, 5/6 FT
10’ G6 vs. BOS – 26 PTS, 11 RBS, 3 AST, 4 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/19 FG, 1/4 3P, 7/7 FT
10’ G7 vs. BOS – 23 PTS, 15 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 6/24 FG, 0/6 3P, 11/15 FT
11’ G4 vs. DAL – 17 PTS, 3 RBS, 1 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 5 TOV, 7/18 FG, 0/5 3P, 3/4 FT
12’ G7 vs. DEN – 17 PTS, 1 RBS, 8 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 7/16 FG, 2/4 3P, 1/4 FT
12’ G5 vs. OKC – 42 PTS, 5 RBS, 0 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 18/33 FG, 1/6 3P, 5/7 FT

Elimination Game Stats – Dwyane Wade: 8 Wins, 6 Losses
04’ G7 vs. NOH – 12 PTS, 4 RBS, 7 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 5/18 FG, 0/1 3P, 2/2 FT
04’ G6 vs. IND – 24 PTS, 2 RBS, 2 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK, 4 TOV, 10/16 FG, 0/0 3P, 4/4 FT
05’ G7 vs. DET – 20 PTS, 1 RBS, 4 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 5 TOV, 7/20 FG, 0/1 3P, 6/7 FT
07’ G4 vs. CHI – 24 PTS, 5 RBS, 10 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 7 TOV, 8/22 FG, 0/2 3P, 8/9 FT
09’ G6 vs. ATL – 41 PTS, 5 RBS, 2 AST, 0 STL, 2 BLK, 3 TOV, 11/23 FG, 3/7 3P, 16/17 FT
09’ G7 vs. ATL – 31 PTS, 3 RBS, 4 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 4TOV, 10/25 FG, 2/9 3P, 9/9 FT
10’ G4 vs. BOS – 46 PTS, 5 RBS, 5 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 6 TOV, 16/24 FG, 5/7 3P, 9/14 FT
10’ G5 vs. BOS – 31 PTS, 8 RBS, 10 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 7 TOV, 10/24 FG, 2/7 3P, 9/10 FT
11’ G6 vs. DAL – 17 PTS, 8 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 5 TOV, 6/16 FG, 0/4 3P, 5/7 FT
12’ G6 vs. BOS – 17 PTS, 8 RBS, 4 AST, 3 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 6/17 FG, 0/0 3P, 5/5 FT
12’ G7 vs. BOS – 23 PTS, 6 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 8/17 FG, 0/2 3P, 7/8 FT
13’ G7 vs. IND – 21 PTS, 9 RBS, 1 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK, 4 TOV, 7/17 FG, 0/0 3P, 7/7 FT
13’ G6 vs. SAS – 14 PTS, 4 RBS, 4 AST, 0 STL, 2 BLK, 3 TOV, 6/15 FG, 0/0 3P, 2/2 FT
13’ G7 vs. SAS – 23 PTS, 10 RBS, 1 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 4 TOV, 11/21 FG, 0/0 3P, 1/2 FT

Elimination Game Stats – LeBron James: 7 Wins, 6 Losses
06’ G7 vs. DET – 27 PTS, 8 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 3 TOV, 11/24 FG, 0/4 3P, 5/8 FT
07’ G4 vs. SAS – 24 PTS, 6 RBS, 10 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 6 TOV, 10/30 FG, 2/7 3P, 2/6 FT
08’ G6 vs. BOS – 32 PTS, 12 RBS, 6 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK, 8 TOV, 9/23 FG, 1/3 3P, 13/15 FT
08’ G7 vs. BOS – 45 PTS, 5 RBS, 6 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 14/29 FG, 3/11 3P, 14/19 FT
09’ G5 vs. ORL – 37 PTS, 14 RBS, 12 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 4 TOV, 11/24 FG, 0/2 3P, 15/19 FT
09’ G6 vs. ORL – 25 PTS, 6 RBS, 7 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 8/20 FG, 2/8 3P, 2/4 FT
10’ G6 vs. BOS – 27 PTS, 19 RBS, 10 AST, 3 STL, 1 BLK, 9 TOV, 8/21 FG, 2/4 3P, 9/12 FT
11’ G6 vs. DAL – 21 PTS, 4 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 6 TOV, 9/15 FG, 2/5 3P, 1/4 FT
12’ G6 vs. BOS – 45 PTS, 15 RBS, 5 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 19/26 FG, 2/4 3P, 5/9 FT
12’ G7 vs. BOS – 31 PTS, 12 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 9/21 FG, 1/5 3P, 12/17 FT
13’ G7 vs. IND – 32 PTS, 8 RBS, 4 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK, 2 TOV, 8/17 FG, 1/2 3P, 15/16 FT
13’ G6 vs. SAS – 32 PTS, 10 RBS, 11 AST, 3 STL, 1 BLK, 6 TOV, 11/26 FG, 1/5 3P, 9/12 FT
13’ G7 vs. SAS – 37 PTS, 12 RBS, 4 AST, 2 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV, 12/23 FG, 5/10 3P, 8/8 FT

Elimination Game Stats – Tim Duncan: 6 Wins, 11 Losses
98’ G5 vs. UTA – 14 PTS, 11 RBS, 0 AST, 0 STL, 2 BLK, 3 TOV, 5/10 FG, 0/0 3P, 4/6 FT
01’ G4 vs. LAL – 15 PTS, 7 RBS, 1 AST, 0 STL, 4 BLK, 2 TOV, 5/10 FG, 0/0 3P, 5/9 FT
02’ G5 vs. SEA – 23 PTS, 9 RBS, 3 AST, 0 STL, 7 BLK, 2 TOV, 9/19 FG, 0/0 3P, 5/5 FT
02’ G5 vs. LAL – 34 PTS, 25 RBS, 4 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 6 TOV, 11/23 FG, 0/0 3P, 12/14 FT
04’ G6 vs. LAL – 20 PTS, 11 RBS, 2 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK, 2 TOV, 7/18 FG, 0/1 3P, 6/8 FT
05’ G7 vs. DET – 25 PTS, 11 RBS, 3 AST, 0 STL, 2 BLK, 5 TOV, 10/27 FG, 0/0 3P, 6/6 FT
06’ G6 vs. DAL – 24 PTS, 8 RBS, 1 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 8/21 FG, 0/0 3P, 8/10 FT
06’ G7 vs. DAL – 41 PTS, 15 RBS, 6 AST, 1 STL, 3 BLK, 3 TOV, 12/24 FG, 0/1 3P, 17/23 FT
08’ G6 vs. NOH – 20 PTS, 15 RBS, 6 AST, 0 STL, 2 BLK, 1 TOV, 7/14 FG, 0/0 3P, 6/8 FT
08’ G7 vs. NOH – 16 PTS, 14 RBS, 3 AST, 1 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV, 5/17 FG, 0/1 3P, 6/6 FT
08’ G5 vs. LAL – 19 PTS, 15 RBS, 10 AST, 0 STL, 1 BLK, 2 TOV, 7/19 FG, 0/1 3P, 5/10 FT
09’ G5 vs. DAL – 30 PTS, 8 RBS, 1 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 0 TOV, 14/21 FG, 0/0 3P, 2/6 FT
10’ G4 vs. PHX – 17 PTS, 8 RBS, 2 AST, 2 STL, 3 BLK, 3 TOV, 7/14 FG, 0/1 3P, 3/7 FT
11’ G5 vs. MEM – 13 PTS, 12 RBS, 3 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 5/13 FG, 0/0 3P, 3/4 FT
11’ G6 vs. MEM – 12 PTS, 10 RBS, 3 AST, 1 STL, 3 BLK, 5 TOV, 5/13 FG, 0/0 3P, 2/2 FT
12’ G6 vs. OKC – 25 PTS, 14 RBS, 2 AST, 1 STL, 2 BLK, 2 TOV, 11/23 FG, 0/0 3P, 3/4 FT
13’ G7 vs. MIA – 24 PTS, 12 RBS, 2 ST, 4 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV, 8/18 FG, 0/0 3P, 8/8 FT

Michael Jordan EG Averages:
31.3 PPG, 7.9 RPG, 7.0 APG, 2.1 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 4.2 TOPG, 45.8 FG%, 33.3 3P%, 75.7 FT%

Kobe Bryant EG Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%

Dwyane Wade EG Averages:
24.6 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 4.7 APG, 1.3 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 4.4 TOPG, 44. 0 FG%, 30.0 3P%, 87.4 FT%

LeBron James EG Averages:
31.9 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.4 SPG, .6 BPG, 4.5 TOPG, 46.5 FG%, 31.4 3P%, 73.8 FT%

Tim Duncan EG Averages:
21.9 PPG, 12.1 RPG, 3.1 APG, .9 SPG, 2.2 BPG, 2.9 TOPG, 44.7 FG%, 0.0 3P%, 74.3 FT%

Best PPG: LeBron James – 31.9 Best RPG: Tim Duncan – 12.1

Best APG: Michael Jordan – 7.0 Best SPG: Michael Jordan – 2.1

Best BPG: Tim Duncan – 2.2 Best TOPG: Tim Duncan – 2.9

Best FG%: LeBron James – 46.5 % Best 3P%: Michael Jordan – 33.3%

Best FT%: Dwyane Wade – 87.4% Best Win %: Dwyane Wade – 57.1%

Single Game Highs-

Most Points: Dwyane Wade – 46 Most Rebounds: Tim Duncan – 25

Most Assists: Michael Jordan – 13 Most Steals: Kobe Bryant – 5

Most Blocks: Tim Duncan – 7 Most Turnovers: LeBron James – 9

Most FG Made: LeBron James – 19 Most FG ATT: Kobe Bryant – 33

Most 3P Made: LeBron James – 5 Most 3P ATT: LeBron James – 11
& Dwyane Wade – 5
Most FT Made: Tim Duncan – 17 Most FT ATT: Tim Duncan – 23
& Michael Jordan – 17

Incase you're wondering, yes, I did a similar thread not too long ago. Only it included PPG and FG%; this one includes APG, RPG, SPG, BPG, 3P%, FT%, and a couple games that I missed on the last thread, I also included Michael Jordan. These stats are more accurate. If you wish to use these stats in any other thread, website, or some other use, go right ahead. Again, if you see any mistakes, please point them out so that they can be corrected.

Now, any surprises to you? Who do you think was the best? Anyone else I should add?

*all stats are per Basketball Reference, accurate as of June 20, 2013.

[Inferno]

Thanks for this. :cheers:

[WayOfWade]

Thanks for this. :cheers:
No problem

[DuMa]

really impressive stats for Lebron to measure up against Jordan. He keeps surprising us all on how good he is on the brink of elimination.

[Trollsmasher]

Thanks for this:rockon:

LeBron and MJ are quite high above the rest.

[bond10]

Lebron in prime: 2 champshions, face elimination 13 times.

Kobe's near complete career: 5 championships, faced elimination 19 times.

MJ's complete career: 6 championships, faced elimination 13 times. :pimp:

[francesco totti]

1 - MJ
2 - Lebron
3 - Duncan
4 - Wade
5 - Kobe

on elimination game rankings.

[Redoks]

1 - MJ
2 - Lebron
3 - Duncan
4 - Wade
5 - Kobe

on elimination game rankings.


Duncan has a very bad W/L ratio. At the end of the day, winning is all that matters.

[tazb]

:lol @ the only thing Kobe leading in is Most FG attempts.

[Leftimage]

Lebron in elimination games since losing in 2011:

35.4 / 11.4 / 5.2 - 52% - 5 and 0 record.

Uh, and to think this isn't even his final form yet.

[TonyMontana]

Nice thread, bookmarked for reference.

[Psycho]

Duncan has a very bad W/L ratio. At the end of the day, winning is all that matters.

Probably because he doesn't choke and cause elimination games to be played when he is on the better team :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Fantastic thread. Very informative too.

I would give MJ the slight edge over Lebron just due to competition. Guy BEASTED against the '89 / '90 Pistons AND the '86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team in history.

[Indian guy]

AND the '86 Celtics, arguably the GOAT team in history.

Huh? MJ was below average against them in Game 3. 19 points on 18 shots, along with 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 turnovers and fouled out.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Huh? MJ was below average against them in Game 3. 19 points on 18 shots, along with 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 turnovers and fouled out.

19/10/9 isn't "below average", but you're right, I overstated his performance.

You could also replace that game w/ his '92 gem vs. NY :confusedshrug:

[Indian guy]

The amazing thing about LeBron being the league's greatest elimination game player EVER is the defenses he was doing it against. The average defensive rank of the teams he faced is 3, with 4 of the 9 opponents actually being #1. Both are higher than anybody else on the list. Not only does he have the best numbers, but did it against better defenses than anybody else too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The amazing thing about LeBron being the league's greatest elimination game player EVER is the defenses he was doing it against. The average defensive rank of the teams he faced is 3, with 4 of the 9 opponents actually being #1. Both are higher than anybody else on the list. Not only does he have the best numbers, but did it against better defenses than anybody else too.

Relative to ERA, sure. I still think the Knicks, late 80s Pistons and '86 Celtics were better team defenses than ANY Lebron has had to face save for the '08 Celts.

Mike's defensive opponents clocked at about 4, which is also impressive.

[Indian guy]

Relative to ERA, sure.

This doesn't make any sense, considering MJ's era had faster pace, higher defensive ratings and generally going by the eye-test, weaker defenses. If anyone should have higher numbers because of "era", he should.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This doesn't make any sense, considering MJ's era had faster pace, higher defensive ratings and generally going by the eye-test, weaker defenses. If anyone should have higher numbers because of "era", he should.

So you agree that Kobe is better than Jordan against defenses w/ a sub ~100 DRtg? Ergo, he plays better against tougher defenses? :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

This doesn't make any sense, considering MJ's era had faster pace, higher defensive ratings and generally going by the eye-test, weaker defenses. If anyone should have higher numbers because of "era", he should.
Which is why it's stupid to compare defensive ratings across eras. Style of play, pace needs to be accounted for ...

And beyond the 2008 Celtics which might be as good or better, I don't think any of those teams besides the big four Celtics LeBron faced in elimination games are superior defenses to the Bad Boy Pistons, Riley Knicks, etc. And I'm not sure any of them are in the top five - top ten all-time teams on BOTH sides of the ball like the '86 Celtics.

MJ being guarded by one of the best defenders ever at his position in Dennis Johnson, when he scored over 100 points on him in just two playoff games.

But looking at the numbers, yes MJ and LeBron are the best elimination game players.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Which is why it's stupid to compare defensive ratings across eras. Style of play, pace needs to be accounted for ...

And beyond the 2008 Celtics which might be as good or better, I don't think any of those teams besides the big four Celtics LeBron faced in elimination games are superior defenses to the Bad Boy Pistons, Riley Knicks, etc. And I'm not sure any of them are in the top five - top ten all-time teams on BOTH sides of the ball like the '86 Celtics.

MJ being guarded by one of the best defenders ever at his position in Dennis Johnson, when he scored over 100 points on him in just two playoff games.

But looking at the numbers, yes MJ and LeBron are the best elimination game players.

Yep.

Arguably Lebron's BEST statistical year the league saw a 107.6 DRtg. That is EXACTLY the same as in 1996. In '97, league-wide DRtg was 106.7. In '98, it was 105. DAT PACE THO!! :oldlol:

[Indian guy]

Yep.

Arguably Lebron's BEST statistical year the league saw a 107.6 DRtg. That is EXACTLY the same as in 1996. In '97, league-wide DRtg was 106.7. In '98, it was 105. DAT PACE THO!! :oldlol:

Huh? What do '96, '97 and '98 have anything to do with MJ facing '86 Celtics, Bad Boy Pistons and '92 Knicks - when the pace and defensive ratings were indeed significantly higher than the late 90's onwards?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You never answered my question, Indian guy.


So you agree that Kobe is better than Jordan against defenses w/ a sub ~100 DRtg? Ergo, he plays better against tougher defenses?

:confusedshrug:


Huh? What do '96, '97 and '98 have anything to do with MJ facing '86 Celtics, Bad Boy Pistons and '92 Knicks - when the pace and defensive ratings were indeed significantly higher than the late 90's onwards?

Those teams ALL had a lower DRTg than the average defense(s) today. Lower than most elite defenses from 2008-2013 too.

It's idiotic to compare defensive ratings across eras. NO team - with the exception of the '96 Sonics AND Bulls of course - was better defensively than ANY of the elite defensive ball clubs of the 2000's. Not one.

[Soundwave]

Or perhaps today teams just have sh*t offensive efficiency because basketball has become centered around perimeter players taking lower percentage shots (Kobe ball).

In the 80s/90s, there were far more good/great post players who took high percentage shots closer to the basket, and in general I think more players in the 80s/90s had a better mid-range jumper than a lot of players today.

Everyone in the 90s grew up wanting to be like Jordan, the problem is his style of game is hard to mimic, and his basketball I.Q. was fairly high, a lot of guys just watched the highlight reels over and over again not understanding that Jordan also could do the basic fundamental things too like relying on a mid-range J and not just slashing to the hoop all the time.

Jordan also didn't take a lot of 3 pointers simply because it is a low percentage play.

[Indian guy]

You never answered my question, Indian guy.



:confusedshrug:



Those teams ALL had a lower DRTg than the average defense(s) today. Lower than most elite defenses from 2008-2013 too.

It's idiotic to compare defensive ratings across eras. NO team - with the exception of the '96 Sonics AND Bulls of course - was better defensively than ANY of the elite defensive ball clubs of the 2000's. Not one.

Err, I don't think DRTG is an accurate way to measure defenses across either. I was merely responding to your comment about "relative to era", which means what, exactly? Why do you think those teams are better than the best of today, other than you just "feel" that way?

[SamuraiSWISH]

Huh? What do '96, '97 and '98 have anything to do with MJ facing '86 Celtics, Bad Boy Pistons and '92 Knicks - when the pace and defensive ratings were indeed significantly higher than the late 90's onwards?
You can only compare defensive ratings to contemporaries for each individual season. That's the only way to relatively compare how each player performed against that season's best defense.

Also offensive production also dictates defensive ratings, pre late 90's and the start of the "Jordan kids" era of ISO-centric ball, teams played better offense and scored more by moving the ball, working down low for easy points in the paint, and better defined offensive skills like passing, spot up shooting, and catch and shoot abilities. It really defines the difference in eras.

MJ from '85 - '93 (30 years old):

The '88 Cavaliers were the 2nd ranked best defense
The '88 Pistons were the 2nd ranked best defense
The '89 Pistons were the 3rd ranked best defense
The '90 Pistons were the 2nd ranked best defense
The '91 Pistons were the 4th ranked best defense
The '91 Lakers were the 5th ranked best defense
The '92 Knicks were the 2nd ranked best defense
The '92 Blazers were the 3rd ranked best defense
The '93 Cavaliers were the 6th ranked best defense
The '93 Knicks were the 1st ranked best defense

MJ faced
1 - #1 Ranked Defense
4 - #2 Ranked Defense
2 - #3 Ranked Defense
1 - #4 Ranked Defense
1 - #5 Ranked Defense
1 - #6 Ranked Defense

LeBron from 2003 - 2013 (age 28 years old):

The 2007 Spurs were the 2nd ranked best defense
The 2008 Celtics were the 1st ranked best defense
The 2009 Magic were the 1st ranked best defense
The 2010 Celtics were the 5th ranked best defense
The 2011 Celtics were the 2nd ranked best defense
The 2011 Bulls were the 1st ranked best defense
The 2012 Celtics were the 1st ranked best defense
The 2013 Bulls were the 6th ranked best defense
The 2013 Pacers were the 1st ranked best defense
The 2013 Spurs were the 3rd ranked best defense

LeBron faced

5 - #1 Ranked Defense
2 - #2 Ranked Defense
1 - #3 Ranked Defense
0 - #4 Ranked Defense
1 - #5 Ranked Defense
1 - #6 Ranked Defense

Not going to lie, that's an impressive amount of elite defenses LeBron has faced. Particularly #1 ranked defenses. But to me numbers can also lie, and defenses alone don't reflect the quality of a team. Like how LeBron struggled heavily v.s. the 2011 Mavericks who were a #8 ranked defense, but he played better against the Bulls #1 ranked defense.

When analyzing these numbers, context needs to be included. I think it comes down to individual defenders in MJ's era, where as LeBron's era team defensive approach has more impact because of the softening of the man defensive perimeter rules.

But numbers can lie, IMO ... that 2010 Celtics team was better than a #5 ranked defense IMO and I definitely don't think that Magic team was deserving of their #1 defensive ranking.

[Trollsmasher]

Or perhaps today teams just have sh*t offensive efficiency because basketball has become centered around perimeter players taking lower percentage shots (Kobe ball).

In the 80s/90s, there were far more good/great post players who took high percentage shots closer to the basket, and in general I think more players in the 80s/90s had a better mid-range jumper than a lot of players today.

Everyone in the 90s grew up wanting to be like Jordan, the problem is his style of game is hard to mimic, and his basketball I.Q. was fairly high, a lot of guys just watched the highlight reels over and over again not understanding that Jordan also could do the basic fundamental things too like relying on a mid-range J and not just slashing to the hoop all the time.

Jordan also didn't take a lot of 3 pointers simply because it is a low percentage play.
Still a higher percentage play than a longer midrange J.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Err, I don't think DRTG is an accurate way to measure defenses across either. I was merely responding to your comment about "relative to era", which means what, exactly? Why do you think those teams are better than the best of today, other than you just "feel" that way?

Meaning, for Lebron's ERA, a completely different style of play versus Jordan's ERA, LBJ is the BEST in elimination games.

Jordan was in his - and if we had to pick between the two, I would take Jordan for the simple reason being, he faced defenses who were MORE physically imposing; defenses that were allowed to put their hands on you.

I'm not saying it isn't arguable or anything either.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Meaning, for Lebron's ERA, a completely different style of play versus Jordan's ERA, James' the BEST in elimination games.

Jordan was in his - and if we had to pick between the two, I would take Jordan for the simple reason being, he faced defenses who were MORE physically imposing; defenses that were allowed to put their hands on you.
Precisely. That's why team defenses have taken over as the dominant defense as opposed to tough, physical, gritty individual defenders. Not to say great team defenses didn't exist in MJ's era, and great individual defender don't exist in Bron's era but the differences are there.

MJ's skill set from an EYE TEST perspective lends him as the favorable candidate to be the better player against better defenses than LeBron.

LeBron struggled against lesser ranked defenses that simply made him be effective off the ball by slashing or moving w/o the ball or played pseudo zones (Mavericks 2011) or begged him to shoot mid range jumpers (Spurs 2013)

MJ would eat those teams alive because he's a superior mid range shooter, and off the ball player than LeBron ... all while having more confidence than LeBron in his abilities to take advantage from the get go.

Both LeBron and MJ are clearly the dominant individual forces of their era under pressure or in elimination games, but I still think the combination of MJ's physical tools and skill set make him the better pressure player over LeBron. Their stats are already similar. Beyond that, I'm still taking Mike.

Also we keep acting like defensive rating alone accounts for the quality of a team. Offense and making someone work on defense is very important as well. You still have to play both ends of the floor at a high level.

[andgar923]

This doesn't make any sense, considering MJ's era had faster pace, higher defensive ratings and generally going by the eye-test, weaker defenses. If anyone should have higher numbers because of "era", he should.

So giving somebody wide open shots is 'weaker' defense?

[andgar923]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAoI_7hjy-k

What MJ thinks of Duncan's defense.

[Calabis]

Huh? MJ was below average against them in Game 3. 19 points on 18 shots, along with 10 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 turnovers and fouled out.

Think he was referring to the entire series

43.7 ppg, 50% FG, 6 reb, 5.7 ast, 2 stl

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's a trade off. Jordan's era = more physical defense, tougher man defense, LeBron's era = better team defense, weak and non physical man defensive rules. It's literally that simple.

[Electric Slide]

It's a trade off. Jordan's era = more physical defense, tougher man defense, LeBron's era = better team defense, weak and non physical man defensive rules. It's literally that simple.
it's more physical in the post in today's league.

it's just less physical in the perimeter/3pt line.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's a trade off. Jordan's era = more physical defense, tougher man defense, LeBron's era = better team defense, weak and non physical man defensive rules. It's literally that simple.

So Jordan exterminates both style of defenses is what you're saying. :lol :cheers:

[Cali Syndicate]

Defenses are better and more advanced today.

The only thing Jordans era allowed was for harder fouls. But they were still called fouls.

Teams couldn't play guys 1 on 5 like the Spurs did vs LeBron because zone is not allowed and by the time the defenders help off their man it's too late.

More advanced in terms of schemes. Man defense isn't nearly a good as it used to be. Harder fouls were called fouls but they also served as intimidation purposes. If you score consecutive baskets in the paint, the next time you come in, a defender will steam roll you and make you reconsider next time. The modern game, rulings protect players by tossing those who play too rough. Touch fouls are far more frequent in today's game as well.

And FYI, 80's and 90's played very good team defense. Double and triple teams and proper rotations were the fundamentals of team defense. In the grand scheme of things, not much has changed in this aspect. Today's legal zone defense is completely blown out of proportion because all teams for the majority of every game still play man defense.

[Hoopz2332]

props..great and informative thread:applause:

[qrich]

Elton Brand (during his prime)!

Ave: 36 Points | 9 Boards | 1 Assist | 1 Block on 16-26 shooting.

:bowdown:

[madmax]

Lebron in elimination games since losing in 2011:

35.4 / 11.4 / 5.2 - 52% - 5 and 0 record.

Uh, and to think this isn't even his final form yet.

:applause: :bowdown:
Honestly, is there anyone more clutch than this guy? LeGOAT:rockon:

[Bottlerocket]

I think the most telling thing about those stats is that 10 of MJ's elimination games were early in his career and before they won the title. Also, 6 of them are against great teams, both offensively and defensively in Boston and Detroit.

His 95 loss was also after he came back midway through the season after sucking at that other b-ball sport.

After they started winning they dominated the league and hardly ever put themselves in the position of needing to win an elimination game.

Another cool thing to look at

MJ=179 playoff games with 13 elimination games
Kobe=175 with 19 elimination games
LeBron=138 with 13 elimination games
Wade=61 with 14 elimination games
TD=160 with 17 elimination games

The Bulls really didn't put themselves in that position very often. MJ has the most playoff games on this list and tied for the least amount of elimination games with someone who has played 41 less games.

[Bottlerocket]

Another thing I noticed, LBJ has had 9 elimination games in 6 series against lower seeded teams. in the 09, 10. and 11 playoffs he got eliminated by the lower seeded teams the rest he won.

MJ had 3 elimination games against lower seeded teams once in 88 against the cavs as well as 92 against the Knicks and 98 against the Pacers. The bulls won all of those series. All of the Bulls losses were against higher seeded teams, often much higher seeded like with Boston and several of those Det teams.

[PickernRoller]

Defenses are better and more advanced today.


Hand checking kills Lebron's game. Good luck with that argument.

[zoom17]

Lebron isn't clutch though dumb haters.

[TheMarkMadsen]

"Elimination games"

So Lebrons 30/7/8 game 4 of the first round last year doesn't count as an elimination game even though winning that game eliminated the Bucks from the playoffs?

So Kobe dropping 40+ points in game 4 of the WCSF doesnt count as an elimination game? Seeing as the Kings were eliminated from the playoffs after that game?

Shouldn't any game where either team is in danger of being eliminated count as an elimination game?

[navy]

"Elimination games"

So Lebrons 30/7/8 game 4 of the first round last year doesn't count as an elimination game even though winning that game eliminated the Bucks from the playoffs?

So Kobe dropping 40+ points in game 4 of the WCSF doesnt count as an elimination game? Seeing as the Kings were eliminated from the playoffs after that game?

Shouldn't any game where either team is in danger of being eliminated count as an elimination game?
Those are called closeout games. They warrant a different thread. :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron isn't clutch though dumb haters.
Nothing clutch about choking during the previous games.

08 vs Celtics - 2/18, 6/24, 7/20, 5/16 (20/78 FG) the first 4 games
22 ppg on 43.1 TS% the first 5 games

'13 vs Spurs - 21.6 ppg on 49.4 TS% in the first 5 games

[TheMarkMadsen]

Those are called closeout games. They warrant a different thread. :cheers:

these game 6's & 7's would count as "closeout" games as well, any time a team is in danger of being eliminated it's an elimination game. Winning game 6 so there isn't a game 7 is just as important as winning game 7

[Rocketswin2013]

it's more physical in the post in today's league.

it's just less physical in the perimeter/3pt line.
http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/quot+In+the+middle+of+porking+her+lol+get+it+_cd46 bdc2da26d1510e5f54d16d8b13e5.gif

[Yao Ming's Foot]

"Elimination games"

So Lebrons 30/7/8 game 4 of the first round last year doesn't count as an elimination game even though winning that game eliminated the Bucks from the playoffs?

So Kobe dropping 40+ points in game 4 of the WCSF doesnt count as an elimination game? Seeing as the Kings were eliminated from the playoffs after that game?

Shouldn't any game where either team is in danger of being eliminated count as an elimination game?

Get with it bro..

First round elimination games are what's important... the entire Lakers 2001 playoff run doesn't count.

[Droid101]

So, the games where players finish off their opponents in dominating fashion don't show up here? Great.

[Keno]

people can't even read a simple statistic, lmao, kobe stans are something else. good bump btw.

[Micku]

it's more physical in the post in today's league.

it's just less physical in the perimeter/3pt line.

It's been a while, but I could've sworn the rules change in the post to make it less physical than it was before? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought below the 00s, you could use your hands, shoulder, hip and forearms to guard the post. Now you can just only use your forearm?

I remember Bird said that he would play more PF more because you can't touch anybody as much in the post.

But the double teams can come quicker.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Nothing clutch about choking during the previous games.

08 vs Celtics - 2/18, 6/24, 7/20, 5/16 (20/78 FG) the first 4 games
22 ppg on 43.1 TS% the first 5 games

'13 vs Spurs - 21.6 ppg on 49.4 TS% in the first 5 games
So lets forget about 2 of heat's final wins? In which he was the most impactful player for his team both games.
2 games as in half the wins in the series needed to get the championship?
Why would you try and take them out of the equation?
Obvious bias bro, try hide it a little better next time.

[zoom17]

So lets forget about 2 of heat's final wins? In which he was the most impactful player for his team both games.
2 games as in half the wins in the series needed to get the championship?
Why would you try and take them out of the equation?
Obvious bias bro, try hide it a little better next time.

:applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

So lets forget about 2 of heat's final wins? In which he was the most impactful player for his team both games.
2 games as in half the wins in the series needed to get the championship?
Why would you try and take them out of the equation?
Obvious bias bro, try hide it a little better next time.
So lets just ignore the first 5 games? He wasn't clutch to me sorry. 25 ppg on 45% shooting when he shot 57% in the regular season? Clutch? Chamberlaineque tbh.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

So lets just ignore the first 5 games? He wasn't clutch to me sorry. 25 ppg on 45% shooting when he shot 57% in the regular season? Clutch? Chamberlaineque tbh.

Isn't 45% like Kobe's career average :oldlol:

[TheMilkyBarKid]

So lets just ignore the first 5 games? He wasn't clutch to me sorry. 25 ppg on 45% shooting when he shot 57% in the regular season? Clutch?
I thought the term 'clutch' referred to coming up big when it matters most. What's your definition of clutch?
I'm not ignoring the first 5 games, but holistically being the teams leading scorer, rebounder and playmaker is a significant contribution. So often his overall contributions are ignored, which leads to some underrating him (and yes some do overrate him too, but we can say that for a lot of players).
In the playoffs defences tend to tighten up, a drop in efficiency is not unusual. It may have taken a while for Lebron to figure the spurs out, but when he did he killed them in game 7 in a very CLUTCH performance.

[navy]

So lets just ignore the first 5 games? He wasn't clutch to me sorry. 25 ppg on 45% shooting when he shot 57% in the regular season? Clutch? Chamberlaineque tbh.
He played bad. But showed up when it mattered most. Isnt that what Kobe stans say when he goes 4-18 but hits a game winner?

[navy]

Isn't 45% like Kobe's career average :oldlol:

Kobe has clutch final stats SIKE. :oldlol:

[JohnFreeman]

MJ and LeBron are on a level of their own :applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I thought the term 'clutch' referred to coming up big when it matters most. What's your definition of clutch?
I'm not ignoring the first 5 games, but holistically being the teams leading scorer, rebounder and playmaker is a significant contribution. So often his overall contributions are ignored, which leads to some underrating him (and yes some do overrate him too, but we can say that for a lot of players).
In the playoffs defences tend to tighten up, a drop in efficiency is not unusual. It may have taken a while for Lebron to figure the spurs out, but when he did he killed them in game 7 in a very CLUTCH performance.
Every Finals game or playoff game is clutch. They are all very important games. Defenses in this case did not tighten up but backed away so Lebron was given numerous open jumpers. He killed them in game 7 yeah, but he could have been doing that earlier too.

[HOoopCityJones]

LOL that *****'s only been to four Finals.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

He played bad. But showed up when it mattered most. Isnt that what Kobe stans say when he goes 4-18 but hits a game winner?
This, I'm sure if I searched through same game threads from last year when Kobe was chucking like crazy but they got the win in a tight one, plenty of kobe stans would've been raving about his clutch ability. The double standard is pretty stupid.
In response to Deuce, they packed the paint as a means to force him to beat him with his jumpshot, admittedly it did initially throw him off his game but he ended up winning in a dominant performance.
That's the beauty of best of 7 series, it allows teams, players and coaches to analyse what the other team is doing an adjust.

[Dro]

The amazing thing about LeBron being the league's greatest elimination game player EVER is the defenses he was doing it against. The average defensive rank of the teams he faced is 3, with 4 of the 9 opponents actually being #1. Both are higher than anybody else on the list. Not only does he have the best numbers, but did it against better defenses than anybody else too.
:biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

these game 6's & 7's would count as "closeout" games as well, any time a team is in danger of being eliminated it's an elimination game. Winning game 6 so there isn't a game 7 is just as important as winning game 7

Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

[raiderfan19]

Add dirks numbers? If not I'll look them up later but I recall them being huge.

[ArbitraryWater]

Add dirks numbers? If not I'll look them up later but I recall them being huge.

Dirk in 20 elimination games(11-9) in the playoffs:

29.9ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.8apg, 1.0spg, 1.2bpg, 49.6%FG, 44.6%3pt, 90.6%FT

[Trollsmasher]

Durcan't:
09-10, L: G6 vs Lakers: 26/6/3 with 1 TO (5-23, 44% TS)
10-11, W: G7 vs Grizzlies: 39/9/2 with 2 TOs (13-25, 67% TS)
-------L: G5 vs Mavericks: 23/9/2 with 3 TOs (8-20, 51% TS)
11-12, L: G5 vs Heat: 32/11/3 with 7 TOs (13-24, 63% TS)
12-13, L: G5 vs Grizzlies: 21/8/6 with 7 TOs (5-21, 38% TS)

28/9/3 with 4 TOs on 39% FG (53% TS)

1-4 record

good, bad?

[DMAVS41]

Dirk in 20 elimination games(11-9) in the playoffs:

29.9ppg, 11.5rpg, 2.8apg, 1.0spg, 1.2bpg, 49.6%FG, 44.6%3pt, 90.6%FT

Dirk in do or die game 7's (4-0) and game 5's (1-0)

26 ppg 13 rpg 2 apg 1 spg 2 bpg on 50/43/90 shooting

:applause:

[JohnFreeman]

Durcan't:
09-10, L: G6 vs Lakers: 26/6/3 with 1 TO (5-23, 44% TS)
10-11, W: G7 vs Grizzlies: 39/9/2 with 2 TOs (13-25, 67% TS)
-------L: G5 vs Mavericks: 23/9/2 with 3 TOs (8-20, 51% TS)
11-12, L: G5 vs Heat: 32/11/3 with 7 TOs (13-24, 63% TS)
12-13, L: G5 vs Grizzlies: 21/8/6 with 7 TOs (5-21, 38% TS)

28/9/3 with 4 TOs on 39% FG (53% TS)

1-4 record

good, bad?
wow

[Prometheus]

Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

:applause:


Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

:applause:


Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

:applause:


Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

:applause:


Gosh Kobetards are so stupid, ugh :facepalm

ELIMINATION GAME=GAME IN A LOSS=ELIMINATED
CLOSEOUT GAME=GAME IN A WIN=ADVANCED

GAME 7=BOTH

Got it, Genius?

:applause:

[Prometheus]

LOL that *****'s only been to four Finals.

:facepalm

Kobe went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.
LeBron went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.

And this is what you want to laugh at like it's bad?

Are you honestly brain dead?

EDIT: typo... it actually only took LeBron 10 seasons to make the Finals 4 times. That's a better rate than Bryant, who got to play with the most dominant center of the modern era under the greatest coach in history. Massive, massive Kobetard fail.

[JohnFreeman]

:facepalm

Kobe went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.
LeBron went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.

And this is what you want to laugh at like it's bad?

Are you honestly brain dead?

EDIT: typo... it actually only took LeBron 10 seasons to make the Finals 4 times. That's a better rate than Bryant, who got to play with the most dominant center of the modern era under the greatest coach in history. Massive, massive Kobetard fail.
http://replygif.net/i/90.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Durcan't:
09-10, L: G6 vs Lakers: 26/6/3 with 1 TO (5-23, 44% TS)
10-11, W: G7 vs Grizzlies: 39/9/2 with 2 TOs (13-25, 67% TS)
-------L: G5 vs Mavericks: 23/9/2 with 3 TOs (8-20, 51% TS)
11-12, L: G5 vs Heat: 32/11/3 with 7 TOs (13-24, 63% TS)
12-13, L: G5 vs Grizzlies: 21/8/6 with 7 TOs (5-21, 38% TS)

28/9/3 with 4 TOs on 39% FG (53% TS)

1-4 record

good, bad?


Could you accurately add those together so I can add them to my thread? :cheers:

[HOoopCityJones]

:facepalm

Kobe went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.
LeBron went to the Finals 4 times in his first 11 seasons.

And this is what you want to laugh at like it's bad?

Are you honestly brain dead?

EDIT: typo... it actually only took LeBron 10 seasons to make the Finals 4 times. That's a better rate than Bryant, who got to play with the most dominant center of the modern era under the greatest coach in history. Massive, massive Kobetard fail.

LOL

Take Lebron's **** out of your ass, that ***** would of never sniffed a Final again with out Teaming up with the entire Eastern Conf.

You wanna talk about playing with Dominant players? How about Playing with arguably the third best SG of all time , with a severely underrated Chris Bosh, who's still a Top PF in this league. Both were in their primes for the rings he's won.

And you're bitching about Shaq and Gasol? who were on two separate squads.

[Prometheus]

LOL

Take Lebron's **** out of your ass, that ***** would of never sniffed a Final again with out Teaming up with the entire Eastern Conf.

You wanna talk about playing with Dominant players? How about Playing with arguably the third best SG of all time , with a severely underrated Chris Bosh, who's still a Top PF in this league. Both were in their primes for the rings he's won.

And you're bitching about Shaq and Gasol? who were on two separate squads.

2013 PLAYOFFS
Dwyane Wade: 15.9 PPG
Chris Bosh: 12.1 PPG

15.9+12.1=28.0

2002 PLAYOFFS
Shaquille O'Neal: 28.5 PPG

http://magnetforfoolishness.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/gif10.gif

You done yet, or you want some more?

[HOoopCityJones]

2013 PLAYOFFS
Dwyane Wade: 15.9 PPG
Chris Bosh: 12.1 PPG

15.9+12.1=28.0

2002 PLAYOFFS
Shaquille O'Neal: 28.5 PPG

http://magnetforfoolishness.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/gif10.gif

You done yet, or you want some more?

Ofc the stat padder would have better stats.

Except , we all know Dwade and Bosh can play at a higher level, and the only reason they don't strive for dominant play is because Brony might go into mental midget mode or he might disappear at a crucial time if he's not the one who gets to Front Run.

Boiled down. Kobe was a Laker first before Shaq, he came to LA.

Lebron needed the best player from the Raptors and the Heat's franchise player to make his second Final.

This entire Topic is a joke on account of that.

This guy JUST started winning games that mattered.

[Prometheus]

Ofc the stat padder would have better stats.

Except , we all know Dwade and Bosh can play at a higher level, and the only reason they don't strive for dominant play is because Brony might go into mental midget mode or he might disappear at a crucial time if he's not the one who gets to Front Run.

Boiled down. Kobe was a Laker first before Shaq, he came to LA.

Lebron needed the best player from the Raptors and the Heat's franchise player to make his second Final.

This entire Topic is a joke on account of that.

This guy JUST started winning games that mattered.

:sleeping :sleeping :sleeping

Come on man I expected some actual debate here. Just look at the numbers in the OP and contemplate the magnitude of your failure.

[red1]

excellent work prometheus

[HOoopCityJones]

:sleeping :sleeping :sleeping

Come on man I expected some actual debate here. Just look at the numbers in the OP and contemplate the magnitude of your failure.

You contemplate yours.


You wanted to bring in who people played with and who they were coached by as if it were some slight.

When in reality you like every Heat/LBJ stan on this board know the truth, LBJ can't be coached by greatness, he's a big baby who needs the ball in his hands 247 to even impact the game and half the time he's stilll looking to his Teammates to bail him out.


Remember, you wanted to get off on this page, don't try to back track now, with stats. Stick to your guns.

[aj1987]

Ofc the stat padder would have better stats.

Except , we all know Dwade and Bosh can play at a higher level, and the only reason they don't strive for dominant play is because Brony might go into mental midget mode or he might disappear at a crucial time if he's not the one who gets to Front Run.

Boiled down. Kobe was a Laker first before Shaq, he came to LA.

Lebron needed the best player from the Raptors and the Heat's franchise player to make his second Final.

This entire Topic is a joke on account of that.

This guy JUST started winning games that mattered.
Are you ****ing stupid? Wade was injured in '12 and '13. Bosh was injured in '12 and in '13 caught a case massive *****.

LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

Bosh can play at a higher level? I guess LeBron is holding back Bosh on the defensive end, where every opposing center turns into peak Shaq.

Boiled down, Shaq CARRIED Kobe to 3 titles and Kobe returned the favor by screwing him in '04.

LeBron >> Kobe all time. Deal with it.

[HOoopCityJones]

Are you ****ing stupid? Wade was injured in '12 and '13. Bosh was injured in '12 and in '13 caught a case massive *****.

LeBron led the Heat in points, rebounds, assists, and steals.

Bosh can play at a higher level? I guess LeBron is holding back Bosh on the defensive end, where every opposing center turns into peak Shaq.

Boiled down, Shaq CARRIED Kobe to 3 titles and Kobe returned the favor by screwing him in '04.

LeBron >> Kobe all time. Deal with it.

Yet, he couldn't win on a ring with a 60 win squad.


He had to collude to delude the entire Eastern conference just to win one ring.
Some GOAT :oldlol:

[aj1987]

Yet, he couldn't win on a ring with a 60 win squad.


He had to collude to delude the entire Eastern conference just to win one ring.
Some GOAT :oldlol:
What was Kobe doing when he had bad teammates between '05 and '07?

[Trollsmasher]

What was Kobe doing when he had bad teammates between '05 and '07?
Wait, Kobe was in the league in these years?:wtf:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Thus hoopcity kid is a perfect representation of the average Kobe fan. No facts. Just emotional ramblings. You can't argue with kids like him.

[red1]

Yet, he couldn't win on a ring with a 60 win squad.


He had to collude to delude the entire Eastern conference just to win one ring.
Some GOAT :oldlol:
not very intelligent are you?

[HOoopCityJones]

Thus hoopcity kid is a perfect representation of the average Kobe fan. No facts. Just emotional ramblings. You can't argue with kids like him.


You LBJ stans are a strange bunch, you guys strut around here throwing BS criteria on any player to discredit their rankings or skills , just to prop up Lebron, yet when you get some of your own medicine it just drives you fellas crazy.

Just relax , Lebron is the only man in history to leave a 60 win Team, because he choked versus the Celtics. :lol



*sigh* You boys better hope he's not tempted to jump ship to the Knicks with Melo at the end of the season, oh wait, you'll just switch loyalties, my bad.

[Mr Exlax]

LeBron is a great player. Kobe is a great player. LeBron is a better player than Kobe. Who gives a shit?

[HOoopCityJones]

LeBron is a great player. Kobe is a great player. LeBron is a better player than Kobe. Who gives a shit?

Lebron is better now since he's younger.

Prime vs prime? Wash.

[AKA AAP 23]

"Elimination games"

So Lebrons 30/7/8 game 4 of the first round last year doesn't count as an elimination game even though winning that game eliminated the Bucks from the playoffs?

So Kobe dropping 40+ points in game 4 of the WCSF doesnt count as an elimination game? Seeing as the Kings were eliminated from the playoffs after that game?

Shouldn't any game where either team is in danger of being eliminated count as an elimination game?

This thread is about elimination games, stay on topic.

Since you are looking for an out for Kobe, let me put it to you this way...time and time again, no matter how you cut it, no matter what context you use, Kobe falls behind LeBron and Jordan. Elimination games, closeout games, NBA finals stats, game winning shots, last 5 minutes of a close game, FG%, clutch %, alpha male %, etc. Doesn't it get old? You Kobe fans always trying to angle a context in which Kobe is the best, but such context does NOT exist, never existed, and will never exist. :no:

[Mr Exlax]

Lebron is better now since he's younger.

Prime vs prime? Wash.

It's not a wash. It depends on what you value. I could argue that LeBron is better than Kobe at some things and you could argue Kobe is better. At the end, who gives a shit? Kobe's probably the 2nd or 3rd best SG ever. LeBron is probably the best SF ever. Both are alltime greats.

[Trollsmasher]

This thread is about elimination games, stay on topic.

Since you are looking for an out for Kobe, let me put it to you this way...time and time again, no matter how you cut it, no matter what context you use, Kobe falls behind LeBron and Jordan. Elimination games, closeout games, NBA finals stats, game winning shots, last 5 minutes of a close game, FG%, clutch %, alpha male %, etc. Doesn't it get old? You Kobe fans always trying to angle a context in which Kobe is the best, but such context does NOT exist, never existed, and will never exist. :no:
damn:lebronamazed:

[pauk]

Lebron & MJ :bowdown:

[eliteballer]

Really OP, you're going to use games when Kobe was 18,19,20 years old, or 11/12 when he wasn't in his prime anymore.

[Prometheus]

You LBJ stans are a strange bunch, you guys strut around here throwing BS criteria on any player to discredit their rankings or skills , just to prop up Lebron, yet when you get some of your own medicine it just drives you fellas crazy.

Just relax , Lebron is the only man in history to leave a 60 win Team, because he choked versus the Celtics. :lol



*sigh* You boys better hope he's not tempted to jump ship to the Knicks with Melo at the end of the season, oh wait, you'll just switch loyalties, my bad.

Just remember, this argument grew out of your post about how HAHA LEBRON HAS ONLY MADE IT TO FOUR FINALS ... in ten years, like that's somehow bad. You started this shit.

[Prometheus]

This thread is about elimination games, stay on topic.

Since you are looking for an out for Kobe, let me put it to you this way...time and time again, no matter how you cut it, no matter what context you use, Kobe falls behind LeBron and Jordan. Elimination games, closeout games, NBA finals stats, game winning shots, last 5 minutes of a close game, FG%, clutch %, alpha male %, etc. Doesn't it get old? You Kobe fans always trying to angle a context in which Kobe is the best, but such context does NOT exist, never existed, and will never exist. :no:

ouch

[Hoopz2332]

needs an update

[WayOfWad3]

I might as well get to it, give me a week

[WayOfWad3]

Actually, my old account got deleted so I can't update this thread, I'll just copy and paste into a new one

[spidey102279]

Update this thread.