How many bigmen to ever be known as a superstar were not better than Chris Bosh?

[Kblaze8855]

For a moment...im gonna sit aside that he just put up 12/7 in the playoffs and scored zero in game 7...and im gonna ignore that he only started 10 games of the playoffs last year and put up Horace Grant numbers when he did play.

Id like to talk about Toronto.

In Toronto...Chris Bosh put up around 22-23 a game most of the time. Peaked just under 11 boards. 9 in 3 other years.

They won I believe...3...playoff games in 7 years.

*looks into that*

He was 6-14 and 3-11 in 2 of those 3 wins. Anthony Parker was the leading scorer for the raptors in the other one(Bosh did have 25/10 though).

He was all NBA one time in the 7 years. It was a second team. He got MVP votes in two seasons. He came in 7th and 12th.

For comparisons sake:

Buck Williams 1 all nba second team as well. Came in 7th, 10th, and 14th in his highest MVP years.

Anthony Mason has one all nba team(3rd). Came in 9th and 15th his best MVP years.

David Lee 3rd team...12th.

Marion...couple 3rd teams...10 and 14th.

Jermaine Oneal 3 time all NBa 3rd in MVP voting once.

Vin Baker 3rd team...second team...8th in MVP voting.

Brand second team...7th place. Same as Bosh. Even won the same number of games those seasons I believe.


The Raptors were 221-271 in his run as franchise player.

I mentioned the 3 total playoff wins.

In the last 25 years or so id say these are the bigmen ive seen called superstars/elite players/whatever you wanna call it on a fairly regular basis:


Shaq, Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Duncan, Webber, KG, Dwight, Dirk, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp for 45 minutes, Ewing, Amare. And Chris Bosh. Maybe Jermaine Oneal? Maybe.

To be fair Bosh mostly gets/got that talk as part of the Big Three thing where it just makes more sense to call it a big 3 of stars than a Big 2 and another good player.

But whatever the reason....

Hes gotta be the least accomplished and flat out least effective bigman ive seen get that label. I mean once we throw out the guys who just fell apart due to injury like Amare and guys like Kemp or maybe add Blake who got superstar talk due to the fame of their highlight reels.

Of the guys like Bosh who really sustained healthy careers...

Is he not the worst bigman of your lifetime to get the superstar label and keep it?

If not...who is?

Kevin Love perhaps? Who id have to throw in the injured area but im not in love with him either.

Isnt what hes actually accomplished far more along the lines of....

Mcdyess
Boozer
Vin Baker
Larry Nance
Juwan Howard
Sheed
Shareef abdur-Rahim
Brand
Otis Thorpe
Ben Wallace
Randolph
Aldridge

..and people like that...than say...

EVERY other power forward considered a superstar the last quarter century?

He follows it up by gradually becoming Ac Green...and he gets to keep superstar status?

He never should have had it in the first place. But if you insist on giving it to him...I must ask.

You consider Zach Randolph his first couple years on Memphis a superstar?

If not...why not?

I will say that Bosh in Toronto had a mean first step for a bigman, we all know about his jumper, he rebounded about as well as a 7 footer should in 35-40 minutes a night, and was not a bad defender.

I will also say....

He put up 11 points and 4 rebounds a game in a seven game conference finals...and he shot 37%.

Ill add that he has stepped up several times when Lebron or Wade are out. And I believe that if put back into a situation to be leaned on he would still put up 20 and 8 or 9.

But I will include that he had 8 20/10 games this entire season including the playoffs. Zach Randolph had 7 just in the playoffs in 2011.

There is the usual "Wade and Lebron dont let him shoot" claim.

He took 4 shots less this season than his career high. The Heat role players(as in...not the Big 3) average 31 shots a night. I suspect he could pull a few out of there. Im not going to pretend its as simple as FGA especially considering that he used to isolate and attack to draw fouls which dont count in FGAs.

Do me the courtesy of assuming I know that and ill do any Bosh fans the courtesy is not going into a long "Since when is not getting shots an excuse to stop rebounding" thing.

He has slowly become a jump shooter who doesnt even attempt to attack on his touches, his rebounding per game and per minute are career lows, hes stopped even making the open jumpers and people still...want to give him superstar status.

So I have to ask....what exactly did he do in Toronto to justify holding him in high regard even when hes become a role player?

He didnt exactly build the most sparkling resume to just hold over no matter how hard he falls off.

At least not to me.

Clearly he did to some of you.

Feel free to educate me.

Is it the all star games?

That it?

You make several all star games in a row you get to be a superstar forever no matter if you play like it or not and even if your team lost 50 more games than it won?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bosh literally has like three or four plays called for him. Guy is a complete after thought. :oldlol:

Having said that, he's always been a bit overrated. I never understood why people thought he was a franchise player back w/ Toronto. "Franchise players" are superstars you can build your team around - and subsequently win with.

Bosh was lucky "his" Raptors were in a shitty conference where winning less than 41 games got you to the playoffs.

[IGOTGAME]

Give me a list of what you think were considered superstars. I think he is def underrated.

[Psileas]

You know...I'd like to open a thread asking where people rank all-time Bosh's Game 7 performance, just to see what the most educated response would be...:D

[PJR]

Let's just keep it real: The only dudes who throw out the 'superstar' label for Bosh are those who attempt to diminish the team accomplishments the Heat achieve under LeBron's lead. Bosh is a really really good player. A 'Superstar' or 'franchise player' ? Na.

[selrahc]

you are probably one of those people who says pau gasol was a superstar when he joined the lakers, when he averaged just 18 and 8 and never won a playoff game with the grizzlies....

and then you go and say bosh was never a superstar averaging 24/11 and winning games in the playoffs....

always trying to downplay lebrons supporting cast to make him seem better and praise kobes supporting cast to make him seem worse.

[Bandito]

Let's just keep it real: The only dudes who throw out the 'superstar' label for Bosh are those who attempt to diminish the team accomplishments the Heat achieve under LeBron's lead. Bosh is a really really good player. A 'Superstar' or 'franchise player' ? Na.
The same can be said about Lebron stan saying that Gasol was a superstar in those Grizzlies team. or how Dennis Rodman was a dominant player in the post.

[IGOTGAME]

If Bosh were on another team these same people would be calling him a top 10 or 12 player. I don't consider that a superstar but a ton of people hear do. Guy can give you 20/10 plus good defense n passing out the post. He has never been my favorite player and I only consider 3-5 guys superstars but Bosh is a supremely talented guy who give up trying to become the best he could to get rings.

[GrapeApe]

I don't think anyone considers Bosh a superstar, but he's better than his numbers the last 2 years would indicate. He's playing out of position and is clearly uncomfortable. To his credit he's sacrificed for the good of the team and doesn't complain about it. His defensive mobility and the spacing he creates on offense have been crucial to the Heat's success.

[red1]

bosh was never a super star. he is a solid all-star who is not being used to his full potential since he is a pf playing centre

[PJR]

The same can be said about Lebron stan saying that Gasol was a superstar in those Grizzlies team. or how Dennis Rodman was a dominant player in the post.

My goodness, shut the hell up. Aint nobody talking about Gasol or Rodman.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Was Shareef Abdur Rahim considered a superstar? He was Chris Bosh before Chris Bosh was cool.

[TonyMontana]

Pau Gasol was a superstar under Phil Jacksons triangle offense. He led the Lakers in win shares during his tenure there. He had the best low post moves of any player in the NBA during those years and his length made him a guy on defense that could protect the rim. Also a great rebounder.

Gasol brought LA from a team with three consecutive years of not being able to win a playoff series to a team that went to the Finals(2 titles) three times in three years.

Bosh can't even lead a team without any other bigman in the rebounding category.

Bosh gets taken out of his game at the slighest physicality, he is a weak rebounder, and his only role offensively is to shoot mid range jumpshots at a rate of 43%.

I would trade Bosh straight up for Omar Asik. I want my bigman to finish inside, rebound, and protect the rim.

[FiveRings]

If Bosh were on another team these same people would be calling him a top 10 or 12 player. I don't consider that a superstar but a ton of people hear do. Guy can give you 20/10 plus good defense n passing out the post. He has never been my favorite player and I only consider 3-5 guys superstars but Bosh is a supremely talented guy who give up trying to become the best he could to get rings.
I agree with this. I think there are very few who truly considered Bosh to be a superstar. To me you can't even call a guy like Carmelo Anthony a superstar. He's just a good all star. Guys like Lebron, Kobe, Durant, CP3, Wade when he's not hurt, prime Dwight without a broken back, and maybe a couple others currently playing are what I consider to be superstars. The best of the best playing. Not guys Bosh, Melo, Blake Griffin, or Paul George.

Bosh is not a superstar, but he is a star player. His all around numbers would not look like they do if he was second option on a team.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I'm not sure anyone believes him to be a superstar. A star, yeah, but so is anyone who averages 20/10. If the Heat used him properly he'd be much more appreciated, too... he should get touches in the post more often.

[SCdac]

Superstar or not, he's definitely a bonafide All-Star and Franchise player. Sure he's got limitations, ala Robinson and such, but he's also an excellent offensive player and doesn't lack talent. That midrange jumper is big for the Heat IMO, yet Bosh can do more.

He's closer to a prime Brand or Jermaine Oneal than he is a Duncan or Kareem obviously... but team one of Brand or O'Neal up with Lebron and Wade... how is that not stacked?

Here's one of I think eight or nine 40 point games (w/ 18 rebounds and 4 assists), this against Dwight Howard's Magic ... a few days later he scored 42 on the Nets in an OT game ... both losses but both show his abilities at their best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q

Considering guys like DeAndre Jordan, Roy Hibbert, and Marc Gasol are being propped up nowadays... prime Bosh looks like a damn super star

[SamuraiSWISH]

Superstar or not, he's definitely a bonafide All-Star and Franchise player. Sure he's got limitations, ala Robinson and such, but he's also an excellent offensive player and doesn't lack talent. That midrange jumper is big for the Heat IMO, yet Bosh can do more.
Did you seriously just compare Chris Bosh to your own franchises David Robinson? Never have I met so many Spurs fans who hate on a player who is arguably better than the often overrated Tim Duncan

[G-train]

Define a star.. Numbers and accolades?

Off the top of my head I can't think of another star player doing what Bosh did in his prime, going from a franchise player to a third option.
Of course the money sweetened the deal.
He plays 3rd option yet still elite power forward.
That's not even including going into the nuances and technicalities of the sport.


Mcdyess
Boozer
Vin Baker
Larry Nance
Juwan Howard
Sheed
Shareef abdur-Rahim
Brand
Otis Thorpe
Ben Wallace
Randolph
Aldridge



Most of the names on that list are an insult to Bosh, unless you judge ball like a noob fan and just group together 20/10 guys regardless of their environment.

My personal belief is that if you put Bosh on lesser team as number one option he would be talked about as one of the leagues best players. We never even saw his prime at Toronto. He is a much better player now IMO in terms of every facet of ball.

But we won't ever know for sure because he is lounging back on the beach with 2 championship rings instead. 2 more than Barkley and Malone.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Did you seriously just compare Chris Bosh to your own franchises David Robinson? Never have I met so many Spurs fans who hate on a player who is arguably better than the often overrated Tim Duncan

The level of disrespect DRob gets here is absurd. Most of these "Spurs fans" have gotta be Manu and TD fanbois.

[SCdac]

Did you seriously just compare Chris Bosh to your own franchises David Robinson? Never have I met so many Spurs fans who hate on a player who is arguably better than the often overrated Tim Duncan

Both jump shooters to a degree, both I felt didn't quite have a "killer" mentality. Robinson is a whole other player (I was talking mainly offense and limitations), but comparisons are comparisons. Obviously, Robinson is better, in his prime he'd be arguably the best player in the league (between him and Lebron). Bosh would never be. However, Bosh on his own team right now would be a top-5 big man easily.

[tpols]

Bosh is an average all star big man.. who can put up 23/11 on a bad team, and 19/9 on a good one(what he averaged in 2011). I dont think anyone ever called him a superstar.

Compare him to other power forwards in the East in 2010.. who was better? 2 maybe 3 guys? Relative to competition he was very good.

Now? His role has been diminished to nothing.. hes still capable just featured less and less.. told to clear out for others.

[Blue&Orange]

An yet he was considered TOP3 PF before going to the Heat, and yet some people have the courage to say this isn't a weak era.

[LAZERUSS]

And as a sidenote, does anyone think that Wade has been a so-called top-five player in these two title runs?

If anything, Lebron's other supporting role players have been a major factor in Miami's success. Moreso than what Wade and Bosh have provided.

But the Lebron-critics continuously bring up this nonsense that he had to be paired with two superstars to finally win a ring.

[Doranku]

Why is there no mention of the "LeBron effect" in this thread?

Virtually every player who plays with LeBron sees a sharp decline in their numbers.

[ripthekik]

But the Lebron-critics continuously bring up this nonsense that he had to be paired with two superstars to finally win a ring.
Because that's what happened in 2010 and that's the truth. It won't be changed no matter what happens after.


Why is there no mention of the "LeBron effect" in this thread?

Virtually every player who plays with LeBron sees a sharp decline in their numbers.
absolutely. Bosh is playing like crap because he's playing with Lebron now, camping at the 3point line, and is not getting plays to get into rhythm to play like his old self. So if he suddenly gets the ball around the free throw line with 3 secs left, is he going to drive or shoot it? Of course he'll shoot it.

Just watch the games without Wade and James. Bosh is still a top 5 PF in the league, he's not being played to potential because of James.

[ConanRulesNBC]

I think Bosh is just struggling on the Heat. It's weird. He seems like he'd be the perfect 4 for that team and playing along with LeBron. But he's never really fit in with them.

I wouldn't mind having Bosh on the Bulls. Same with Kevin Love. Either of those two, IMO, would fit the Bulls perfectly.

[Kblaze8855]

Most of the names on that list are an insult to Bosh, unless you judge ball like a noob fan and just group together 20/10 guys regardless of their environment.

Have have anything to suggest he isnt just another "Make an awful team merely below average" 20ppg without really mattering bigman?

You have trouble with the idea Vin Baker could lead a 33 win team in the east or win 3 playoff games in 7 years?

Think Bosh on the Jazz instead of Boozer also whores the Warriors small lineup? Maybe so...but is he gonna get them by the Spurs where Boozer didnt?

Mcdyess was doing 21/11 and blocking shots. Helped a team that won 20 something games when he went down to 40 or so in a good west. Something in Boshs history tell you he would do better?

Zach randolph led his team past the #1 seeded spurs looking like an animal. bosh gonna out perform him?

Who on that list just...insults Bosh?

Juwan Howard maybe? SAR?

Who we talking about?

[Ne 1]

Superstar or not, he's definitely a bonafide All-Star and Franchise player. Sure he's got limitations, ala Robinson and such, but he's also an excellent offensive player and doesn't lack talent. That midrange jumper is big for the Heat IMO, yet Bosh can do more.

He's closer to a prime Brand or Jermaine Oneal than he is a Duncan or Kareem obviously... but team one of Brand or O'Neal up with Lebron and Wade... how is that not stacked?

Here's one of I think eight or nine 40 point games (w/ 18 rebounds and 4 assists), this against Dwight Howard's Magic ... a few days later he scored 42 on the Nets in an OT game ... both losses but both show his abilities at their best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q

Considering guys like DeAndre Jordan, Roy Hibbert, and Marc Gasol are being propped up nowadays... prime Bosh looks like a damn super star
Good post. I think he's comparable to a Pau Gasol, Brad Daugherty or Shareef Abdur Rahim.

[Cali Syndicate]

An yet he was considered TOP3 PF before going to the Heat, and yet some people have the courage to say this isn't a weak era.


In no order,

Dirk, Amare, Duncan, Pau, Horford, ZBo, Aldridge, KG, David Lee, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith....Top 3?

I mean was he even better than Carlos Boozer?

[Kblaze8855]

Because that's what happened in 2010 and that's the truth. It won't be changed no matter what happens after.

If you think anyone is gonna look back at a 15/5 Wade and 12/7 Bosh and consider them superstars you are out of your mind.

Bosh is pretty much Bob Mcadoo on the Lakers right now. Except Bob Mcadoo was an actual superstar when he was leading his own team.

[Kblaze8855]

Good post. I think he's comparable to a Pau Gasol, Brad Daugherty or Shareef Abdur Rahim.

SAR yes. Id take the first two over him. Id say

Brad
Gasol
Bosh
SAR

[diamenz]

bosh will be remembered most for his brazzers episode.

[TonyMontana]

And as a sidenote, does anyone think that Wade has been a so-called top-five player in these two title runs?

If anything, Lebron's other supporting role players have been a major factor in Miami's success. Moreso than what Wade and Bosh have provided.

But the Lebron-critics continuously bring up this nonsense that he had to be paired with two superstars to finally win a ring.

Ding Ding Ding

The best thing about about the Heat(other than LeBron obviously) is the variety of shooters they have and the variety of role players that can step in when someone is struggling. Shane Battier struggling with his shot? Ok put Mike Miller in. Hes off? Put Ray Allen in.

Even a guy like James Jones is a very good shooter and would get run on most teams. Miami has a bunch of guys that don't even play that are good.

Bosh and Wade are overrated as ****, they are just names. Neither is a top 30 player in the current NBA.

[Blue&Orange]

Bosh and Wade are overrated as ****, they are just names. Neither is a top 30 player in the current NBA.
:lol Lebron stans unbearably dumb. Hey tony how about an coherent intelligent post? 629 post? It's well overdue.


http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

[longtime lurker]

For a moment...im gonna sit aside that he just put up 12/7 in the playoffs and scored zero in game 7...and im gonna ignore that he only started 10 games of the playoffs last year and put up Horace Grant numbers when he did play.

Id like to talk about Toronto.

In Toronto...Chris Bosh put up around 22-23 a game most of the time. Peaked just under 11 boards. 9 in 3 other years.

They won I believe...3...playoff games in 7 years.

*looks into that*

He was 6-14 and 3-11 in 2 of those 3 wins. Anthony Parker was the leading scorer for the raptors in the other one(Bosh did have 25/10 though).

He was all NBA one time in the 7 years. It was a second team. He got MVP votes in two seasons. He came in 7th and 12th.

For comparisons sake:

Buck Williams 1 all nba second team as well. Came in 7th, 10th, and 14th in his highest MVP years.

Anthony Mason has one all nba team(3rd). Came in 9th and 15th his best MVP years.

David Lee 3rd team...12th.

Marion...couple 3rd teams...10 and 14th.

Jermaine Oneal 3 time all NBa 3rd in MVP voting once.

Vin Baker 3rd team...second team...8th in MVP voting.

Brand second team...7th place. Same as Bosh. Even won the same number of games those seasons I believe.


The Raptors were 221-271 in his run as franchise player.

I mentioned the 3 total playoff wins.

In the last 25 years or so id say these are the bigmen ive seen called superstars/elite players/whatever you wanna call it on a fairly regular basis:


Shaq, Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Duncan, Webber, KG, Dwight, Dirk, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp for 45 minutes, Ewing, Amare. And Chris Bosh. Maybe Jermaine Oneal? Maybe.

To be fair Bosh mostly gets/got that talk as part of the Big Three thing where it just makes more sense to call it a big 3 of stars than a Big 2 and another good player.

But whatever the reason....

Hes gotta be the least accomplished and flat out least effective bigman ive seen get that label. I mean once we throw out the guys who just fell apart due to injury like Amare and guys like Kemp or maybe add Blake who got superstar talk due to the fame of their highlight reels.

Of the guys like Bosh who really sustained healthy careers...

Is he not the worst bigman of your lifetime to get the superstar label and keep it?

If not...who is?

Kevin Love perhaps? Who id have to throw in the injured area but im not in love with him either.

Isnt what hes actually accomplished far more along the lines of....

Mcdyess
Boozer
Vin Baker
Larry Nance
Juwan Howard
Sheed
Shareef abdur-Rahim
Brand
Otis Thorpe
Ben Wallace
Randolph
Aldridge

..and people like that...than say...

EVERY other power forward considered a superstar the last quarter century?

He follows it up by gradually becoming Ac Green...and he gets to keep superstar status?

He never should have had it in the first place. But if you insist on giving it to him...I must ask.

You consider Zach Randolph his first couple years on Memphis a superstar?

If not...why not?

I will say that Bosh in Toronto had a mean first step for a bigman, we all know about his jumper, he rebounded about as well as a 7 footer should in 35-40 minutes a night, and was not a bad defender.

I will also say....

He put up 11 points and 4 rebounds a game in a seven game conference finals...and he shot 37%.

Ill add that he has stepped up several times when Lebron or Wade are out. And I believe that if put back into a situation to be leaned on he would still put up 20 and 8 or 9.

But I will include that he had 8 20/10 games this entire season including the playoffs. Zach Randolph had 7 just in the playoffs in 2011.

There is the usual "Wade and Lebron dont let him shoot" claim.

He took 4 shots less this season than his career high. The Heat role players(as in...not the Big 3) average 31 shots a night. I suspect he could pull a few out of there. Im not going to pretend its as simple as FGA especially considering that he used to isolate and attack to draw fouls which dont count in FGAs.

Do me the courtesy of assuming I know that and ill do any Bosh fans the courtesy is not going into a long "Since when is not getting shots an excuse to stop rebounding" thing.

He has slowly become a jump shooter who doesnt even attempt to attack on his touches, his rebounding per game and per minute are career lows, hes stopped even making the open jumpers and people still...want to give him superstar status.

So I have to ask....what exactly did he do in Toronto to justify holding him in high regard even when hes become a role player?

He didnt exactly build the most sparkling resume to just hold over no matter how hard he falls off.

At least not to me.

Clearly he did to some of you.

Feel free to educate me.

Is it the all star games?

That it?

You make several all star games in a row you get to be a superstar forever no matter if you play like it or not and even if your team lost 50 more games than it won?

I see you're slowly turning into a Lebron fan boy. Bosh was considered a top 10 player in the NBA and was easily in the discussion for best PF in the NBA before heading to Miami. Saying he's not a superstar doesn't really diminish him because there are literally maybe 5 superstars in the NBA.

[ripthekik]

I see you're slowly turning into a Lebron fan boy. Bosh was considered a top 10 player in the NBA and was easily in the discussion for best PF in the NBA before heading to Miami. Saying he's not a superstar doesn't really diminish him because there are literally maybe 5 superstars in the NBA.
He has been a lebron fan boy since forever. Always showing up in my threads with some essay propping up lebron :oldlol:

[TonyMontana]

:lol Lebron stans unbearably dumb. Hey tony how about an coherent intelligent post? 629 post? It's well overdue.


http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG8.HTM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

According to link number 1, Vince Carter is the 15th best player in the NBA.

According to link number 2, Andray Blatche is the 14th best in the NBA.

Either would be lucky to be a top 100 player in the NBA.

Not even going to take some little kid seriously that gets his opinion strictly from a list. :oldlol:

[NUPE_1911]

Bosh is a 3rd option and his roll does not allow him to get tons of touches.

Bosh has already proven he can put up 25 & 10 in the NBA.

I laugh when people say trade Bosh. Any big they get for Bosh will not perform better than Bosh on the offensive end because the Heat game plan is for LeBron and Wade to dominate the ball and create jump shots for all other players in Heat uniforms. Bosh fits the system perfectly. He will collect his rings and go to the HOF.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I see you're slowly turning into a Lebron fan boy. Bosh was considered a top 10 player in the NBA and was easily in the discussion for best PF in the NBA before heading to Miami. Saying he's not a superstar doesn't really diminish him because there are literally maybe 5 superstars in the NBA.

Most mods are. It's actually hilarious. :oldlol:

[memetherapy]

Bosh was an all-star in his late Raptor days because of numbers...but I think he realized, as we should too, that all-star numbers don't mean squat unless you're consistently competing against the best teams, which the Raptors weren't.

The issue here is complex. I think a lot of people simply aren't interpreting NBA ball properly. The best teams have a system...a style...a pace which suits them best against opponents...right now, it seems like Miami is the only successful team (on offense only) who's system is based around one player, Lebron. The last team I can remember who was successful with a player-based system was the Nash's Suns. Lebron is the mismatch...and so, everyone else is really there to be fit in in his system. Bosh simply has become a gear in the machine... but a very useful one. He frees the lane up by pulling big men out and his excellent defensive footwork and length allow him to do a decent defensive job on whomever he gets switched to, guard or center. And since Miami can be so efficient at times on offense, he tends to be passive when his shot ain't dropping, sometimes to a fault. Like Lebron, I think he played into the Spurs hands by not shooting. It's probably not the easiest thing to balance and I'll admit he sometimes has seemed disengaged as a scorer when he should be. It shouldn't surprised anyone he was over-stretched and exposed against Hibbert... that's Miami's Achilles heal. Against Duncan, I think he did a great job and the calls were really never going his way, on offense or defense. It had a lot to do with the way refs allow more contact... and that's another issue Bosh has, of not being strong enough to fight through contact. However, that being said, find me another big who can do a good defensive job on 90% of centers and a decent defensive job on almost anyone else, guard, forward, etc? The Lebron system is the reason the Heat are winning. If you find me a better fit at center for that system, I'd be all ears. Noah comes to mind...Kevin Love maybe? Not that many.

All in all...Bosh is not part of the big 3 unless a big 3 can have this format... Lebron>Wade>>>Bosh ... he's not a (good) franchise player, that's for sure...but his critics who only focus on numbers on underrating his impact because of their myopic vision of why teams win games. Bosh does a lot of good stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Freeing up lanes on offense...hockey assists...and more than anything, he's excellent at covering defensive ground to challenge shots and get in front of players. He has sacrificed the flashy numbers for the good of the team, sometimes too much...but most of the time, for the good of the team.

[Doranku]

Bosh was an all-star in his late Raptor days because of numbers...but I think he realized, as we should too, that all-star numbers don't mean squat unless you're consistently competing against the best teams, which the Raptors weren't.


WTF does this even mean?

[OldSkoolball#52]

you are probably one of those people who says pau gasol was a superstar when he joined the lakers, when he averaged just 18 and 8 and never won a playoff game with the grizzlies....

and then you go and say bosh was never a superstar averaging 24/11 and winning games in the playoffs....

always trying to downplay lebrons supporting cast to make him seem better and praise kobes supporting cast to make him seem worse.


The point is fair in terms of each players' overall accomplishments on teams with lackluster rosters, but it's still a simple fact that prime Gasol >> prime Bosh.

[OldSkoolball#52]

I see you're slowly turning into a Lebron fan boy. Bosh was considered a top 10 player in the NBA and was easily in the discussion for best PF in the NBA before heading to Miami. Saying he's not a superstar doesn't really diminish him because there are literally maybe 5 superstars in the NBA.


By some, sure, but was that ever actually accurate? A lot of it had to do with hype related to his youth, his draft class, his pending free agency.

For instance, as a player, what ever separated Bosh from Zach Randolph?

IMO part of the excessive Bosh hype when he left the Raptors was about being a young, up-and-coming player who was getting a lil extra attention because he was gonna be a part of that vaunted free agent class with Lebron, Wade, Amare, Joe Johnson etc. In hindsight, was he ever a Top 10 player??

What people thought then doesn't really have anything to do with what's turned out to be true. People have thought a lot of wrong and bizarre things over the course of history.


However one thing I will say is that Bosh has been impressive in ADAPTING his game/role. For instance I don't see Amare Stoudamire being nearly as useful on this Heat team. Bosh is able to help the team without getting a lot of touches because of Wade and James, there are other volume scoring bigs out there who I don't think would have been nearly as effective in that way. I think most teams would kill for a third best player as good as Bosh.

[qrich]

Skimmed through, sure was mentioned somewhere, but I never understood how Bosh was considered a superstar at any given point in time. More like the Corey Maggette of power forwards.

Yet, someone like Elton Brand, always got disrespected. I'd probably put a good 10-15 slot cushion between the two relatively easily.

[andremiller07]

Skimmed through, sure was mentioned somewhere, but I never understood how Bosh was considered a superstar at any given point in time. More like the Corey Maggette of power forwards.

Yet, someone like Elton Brand, always got disrespected. I'd probably put a good 10-15 slot cushion between the two relatively easily.
Brand is one of the most underrated players ever, that one playoff run he had in like 2005/06 (I think) was one of the best big man performances in recent memory.

[qrich]

Brand is one of the most underrated players ever, that one playoff run he had in like 2005/06 (I think) was one of the best big man performances in recent memory.

First thing we have agreed upon :cheers:

Only knock on Brand, at least to me, was that he had zero leadership abilities and seemed content with the way the Clippers were for whatever reason. Sucks that he only had one real good run, but it is what it is.

[pmj]

Two thoughts...

One, is its not Bosh's fault, but rather how completely awful the Heats centers were until Birdman. Bosh, unlike many or even most good AllStar PFs, is pretty awful as a Center, and it only slightly works in a small ball lineup. He's so woefully underwhelming at guarding real centers that Hibbert looks like prime Hakeem out there.

My second thought is to completely agree though. I feel that almost any other "AllStar" PF would have made the Heat virtually unbeatable... Love, Aldrige, KG, Duncan, Griffin, Gasol, etc. not to mention many other centers. I feel Bosh's impact could easily be replaced by many other players without the resume and that cost much less.

[memetherapy]

WTF does this even mean?

It means the Raptors didn't have a shot in hell at going anywhere. Bosh cannot be the franchise player on a team that can compete for a championship, no matter the pieces you put around him. That's what it means. I meant "competing" as "challenging"...not actually just trying to win.

[memetherapy]

Two thoughts...

One, is its not Bosh's fault, but rather how completely awful the Heats centers were until Birdman. Bosh, unlike many or even most good AllStar PFs, is pretty awful as a Center, and it only slightly works in a small ball lineup. He's so woefully underwhelming at guarding real centers that Hibbert looks like prime Hakeem out there.

My second thought is to completely agree though. I feel that almost any other "AllStar" PF would have made the Heat virtually unbeatable... Love, Aldrige, KG, Duncan, Griffin, Gasol, etc. not to mention many other centers. I feel Bosh's impact could easily be replaced by many other players without the resume and that cost much less.


As much as I defend Bosh for fitting in a system... you're right. He's the doing the most he can to help the Heat win, but he's definitely overpaid. From the players you named though, Duncan and KG would be better than Bosh... Love and Aldrige are questionable with their defensive versatility. Griffin...no. Gasol...no.

[Kblaze8855]

Me six years ago on Chris Bosh:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27772&page=3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63382

^
Ten months later

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112015

^
Me in 2008

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41180

^
Boozer vs Bosh topic 6 years ago.

But its aaaaaaaaall about Lebron right?

[memetherapy]

I didn't go through KBlaze's links to his past claims...but if there's anyone who's trying to talk honest basketball without stan bias it's KBlaze, even though I disagree with his analysis based on stats.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's not a superstar, but he's not some bum the way LeBron stans are making him out to sound. He was good enough offensively and defensively as a stretch four to be the focal point and center piece of a franchise. That is more inherent ability and value than the likes of Horace Grant, etc. He'll go down as a HOF caliber player, that's for sure. He's a solid perennial all star caliber stretch four.

I don't know why Miami fans want them to get rid of him either. Him being able to hit the jumper and pull defenders out to the top oft he key creates driving opportunities for LeBron. If you have a traditional center or post player on the block, it createst congestion that doesn't allow LeBron's drive and kick game to flourish.

[Kblaze8855]

Chris bosh has been overrated to me since about 2006 and there are years of topics proving it.i wasn't impressed by 20 and 9. But when he's putting up Bucks Keith van horn numbers my thinking he isn't much is because of Lebron....

Fairly obvious who must inject Lebron into every opinion and it isn't me.

[Carbine]

At the end of the day he did put up those numbers. Not a lot of players capable of doing that - however his impact was less than those numbers indicated - which is the problem......people just want to look at stats.

"He was a 24/11 player before he got to Miami"

It's that kind of shit. Tim Duncan was a 23/13 player for much of his prime.... so when you read that Bosh was a 24/11 player.....it reads like they're the same.

Numbers lie. Tim Duncans impact on the game is far greater.

Kevin Love is another. He was doing 26/13 for a whole year....doesn't mean those numbers reflect his impact on wins and loses.

Bosh is what he is on the Heat. What he did in the past for Toronto doesn't matter. He wasn't anywhere near a star this post-season. He was a role player basically. Last year he was hurt half the playoffs and didn't play, and then played just OK when he did play.

[Kblaze8855]

. He was good enough offensively and defensively as a stretch four to be the focal point and center piece of a franchise.

I dont know if being the centerpiece of a franchise that goes 221-271 with you up front makes you special. Sounds more like a failed experiment. Like Antawn Jamison on the warriors.

And he wasnt exactly dominating and losing due to things outside his power. We arent talking about Tiny Archibald on the Royals here.



That is more inherent ability and value than the likes of Horace Grant, etc.

More value...not better basketball playing.

You are as good as your play. At least when healthy.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I dont know if being the centerpiece of a franchise that goes 221-271 with you up front makes you special. Sounds more like a failed experiment. Like Antawn Jamison on the warriors.
Did I say he was successful? I don't agree that his statistics (much like Kevin Love) reflect his actual in game impact on wins and losses.

What are you exactly trying to say with your post? Per usual with KBlaze it was a mountain of fluff, just come out and say what you mean.

Is Chris Bosh an average player? Slightly above average? I don't think anyone actually considers him, or has ever considered him to be a superstar.

He was a talented tweener, who was skilled enough to put up good numbers on a bad team that didn't dramatically reflect in the wins / loss category for his franchise. On an actual QUALITY championship team he's at best a 3rd option. As we've seen. Which is probably his actual worth and niche to a team in a defined role.

Same way you used to slobber over Ben Gordon due to his stats, or his shooting abilities in crunch time. Ignoring his complete lack of defense, or sloppy handle, in ability to have anything remotely comparable to court vision or passing abilities. But on a championship team, guy is a Vinnie Microwave Johnson AT BEST type.

Joining a team with true talent, and a championship pedigree put Chris Bosh's abilities into perspective within a hierarchy of talent.


More value...not better basketball playing.
Huh?

In a specific role, Horace provides better I'd say. You're not agreeing that Chris Bosh is the superior player all together, though?

Who goes further? Horace Grant and role players, or Chris Bosh and role players?

Come on ...

[Kblaze8855]

I'm on my phone so I'll just say.....

There are people in this topic saying he was a superstar so where do people get the idea that nobody thought he was one?

Seems many have seen otherwise. But it was a pretty common opinion.

One i didn't get then and don't now. If he was a superstar four either he or Jermaine Oneal is the worst of them ever

[Carbine]

I remember threads popping up every now and then called "Bosh vs. Dwight," and people taking Bosh. This would have been 2007, 2008 probably.

[DaHeezy]

Most mods are. It's actually hilarious. :oldlol:

Actually most mods, especially kblaze provide the most insighful unbiased basketball posts ISH has ever seen.
You however are probably one of the top 10 douches on ISH. I've never seen you post anything but insults towards other posters. Your comprehension skills are comparable to a 6 year old. Probably one of the more useless posters on here

[OldSkoolball#52]

Griffin...no. Gasol...no.


Oh, Gasol yes.

Gasol is still a beast when he's giving max effort, he's just basically been a shell the last couple years cause he's sick of playing with heroball chucker kobe. If you remember, Gasol basically quit playing hard in his last year with Memphis, which was pretty much the reason they went ahead and traded him. He wasnt giving effort anymore cause he wasn't happy. Same thing is happening now with the Lakers. In fact, it's the same thing that happened with the Lakers and Shaq. Kobe basically rode a big man's dominance to some rings, then once the rings were in hand Kobe went into extra hog mode and made it all about himself (which results in Lakers failures). Just like Shaq, Gasol got sick of it (so did Bynum) (so did Howard).



I'm not sayin it's excusable that Gasol has slacked, but it's a pretty poorly kept secret that pretty much everyone who plays with Kobe eventually gets sick of it. If you put Gasol on a selfless team like the Heat? Dude would light it up. He's still got a lot of skill, and a lot of length. Him and Birdman down low with the Heat's perimeter players? Fuggedaboutit

[TonyMontana]

I don't know why Miami fans want them to get rid of him either. Him being able to hit the jumper and pull defenders out to the top oft he key creates driving opportunities for LeBron. If you have a traditional center or post player on the block, it createst congestion that doesn't allow LeBron's drive and kick game to flourish.

This guy either doesn't watch the games or he can't read basketball.

Miami is at their best when Bosh plays inside offensively getting o-rebounds, getting defensive rebounds, and blocking shots.

Problem is Bosh only plays like that 20% of the time. It makes more sense to get a guy who plays like that full time. Bosh makes that mid range jumpshot at 43%. I'd rather have those be attempts at the rim, at the foul line, or open looks from three.

[tpols]

This guy either doesn't watch the games or he can't read basketball.

Miami is at their best when Bosh plays inside offensively getting o-rebounds, getting defensive rebounds, and blocking shots.

Problem is Bosh only plays like that 20% of the time. It makes more sense to get a guy who plays like that full time. Bosh makes that mid range jumpshot at 43%. I'd rather have those be attempts at the rim, at the foul line, or open looks from three.
Like when they told him to sit in corners against Indy to draw the big man from the paint and give Wade and Lebron clearer paths to the rim.:oldlol:

[plowking]

I don't know about Bosh... At the time of free agency, I was one of the few Heat fans wanting Boozer over Bosh. Maybe still would looking at the build of our team. Could do with Boozer's great rebounding, and he has a decent outside shot as well.
Then you have guys like Gasol, who I've always personally considered better than Bosh too, but at the same time, you have players like Griffin, who may put up the nice stats like you mention, but I'm taking a player like Bosh over him.

Bosh is a hard player to gauge, but he definitely has regressed since coming to the Heat. I'm not just talking about his role, but his role has played part in his drop in stats, but also his attitude and skill set. He isn't attacking the paint anymore, he isn't down low, he isn't looking to score in the best way possible. He's become a jump shooter, and decent defender. That's about it.

That's the only thing hes improved on since being here. Defense and jumpshooting. He has seriously regressed as a complete player though. 2011 Bosh was the best version of Heat Bosh. He mixed it up and still went hard.

Another thing I'd add is, people saying Aldridge is better than Bosh? Really? Hes in a position that Bosh was in Toronto, and hes basically the player Bosh is in Miami. He takes jumpshots and is a tragic rebounder. At least Bosh was mixing it up downlow and aggressive. Bosh>Aldridge.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Actually most mods, especially kblaze provide the most insighful unbiased basketball posts ISH has ever seen.
You however are probably one of the top 10 douches on ISH. I've never seen you post anything but insults towards other posters. Your comprehension skills are comparable to a 6 year old. Probably one of the more useless posters on here

Who is this guy? :roll:

[JohnnyBravo5]

The best statement I can say about Bosh is that Georgia Tech went to the final four the year after he left.

[DMAVS41]

I've never understood it. He's probably slightly worse overall as a player than David West....and has been for years in my opinion.

But...some people still find ways to prop him up. I guess they just won't let go of the narrative that Bosh is a superstar. He's not. Never has been. He's a slightly better version of Antawn Jamison.

The Heat learned, after the first year in the playoffs, that Bosh is more suited to play 32 or so minutes per game rather than 40. That alone is enough of an indictment on his real impact as anything.

If the guy was a legit star...he'd play way more minutes when healthy. And he was healthy this year in the playoffs and played less than 33 a game. Absurd for a player in his prime.

Bosh, in his role as 3rd option on the Heat, is roughly as good as Lamar Odom on the Lakers in 09 and 10...I'd actually take Odom, but it's close.

That is who Bosh is until he proves otherwise.

[IGOTGAME]

I've never understood it. He's probably slightly worse overall as a player than David West....and has been for years in my opinion.

But...some people still find ways to prop him up. I guess they just won't let go of the narrative that Bosh is a superstar. He's not. Never has been. He's a slightly better version of Antawn Jamison.

The Heat learned, after the first year in the playoffs, that Bosh is more suited to play 32 or so minutes per game rather than 40. That alone is enough of an indictment on his real impact as anything.

If the guy was a legit star...he'd play way more minutes when healthy. And he was healthy this year in the playoffs and played less than 33 a game. Absurd for a player in his prime.

Bosh, in his role as 3rd option on the Heat, is roughly as good as Lamar Odom on the Lakers in 09 and 10...I'd actually take Odom, but it's close.

That is who Bosh is until he proves otherwise.

Your logic is unassailable.

[Doranku]

I've never understood it. He's probably slightly worse overall as a player than David West....and has been for years in my opinion.

But...some people still find ways to prop him up. I guess they just won't let go of the narrative that Bosh is a superstar. He's not. Never has been. He's a slightly better version of Antawn Jamison.

The Heat learned, after the first year in the playoffs, that Bosh is more suited to play 32 or so minutes per game rather than 40. That alone is enough of an indictment on his real impact as anything.

If the guy was a legit star...he'd play way more minutes when healthy. And he was healthy this year in the playoffs and played less than 33 a game. Absurd for a player in his prime.

Bosh, in his role as 3rd option on the Heat, is roughly as good as Lamar Odom on the Lakers in 09 and 10...I'd actually take Odom, but it's close.

That is who Bosh is until he proves otherwise.

What do you expect with the kind of offense that the Heat run?

Dude will go possession after possession after possession without even touching the ball. How many times do you see Bosh get the ball in the high post and make a move? He's playing with not one, but TWO ball-dominant wing players. One who is subpar at moving without the ball.

The only thing the Heat use him for is to space the floor and shoot jumpers. That's literally the only time he gets the ball. You tell me, what PF in the NBA is going to provide more on the offensive end with that kind of system than Bosh?

The only two I can think of are Dirk and Love, and who knows how Dirk would play in a strict catch-and-shoot role?

Point is, the only PF who will thrive on Miami is a stretch 4 that loves to shoot jumpers. Bosh was more of a hybrid. He was more than a jump shooter in Toronto. Unfortunately, all of that has been lost playing alongside Wade and James.

Also, FWIW, Odom would be awful on this current Heat team while Bosh would be phenomenal in a big man rotation of Bosh/Gasol/Bynum playing alongside Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

What do you expect with the kind of offense that the Heat run?

Dude will go possession after possession after possession without even touching the ball. How many times do you see Bosh get the ball in the high post and make a move? He's playing with not one, but TWO ball-dominant wing players. One who is subpar at moving without the ball.

The only thing the Heat use him for is to space the floor and shoot jumpers. That's literally the only time he gets the ball. You tell me, what PF in the NBA is going to provide more on the offensive end with that kind of system than Bosh?

The only two I can think of are Dirk and Love, and who knows how Dirk would play in a strict catch-and-shoot role?

Point is, the only PF who will thrive on Miami is a stretch 4 that loves to shoot jumpers. Bosh was more of a hybrid. He was more than a jump shooter in Toronto. Unfortunately, all of that has been lost playing alongside Wade and James.

Also, FWIW, Odom would be awful on this current Heat team while Bosh would be phenomenal in a big man rotation of Bosh/Gasol/Bynum playing alongside Kobe.

You can't just look at it like that. You have to understand the reasons why the team plays the way they do. Bosh isn't good enough to play a featured role on a title winning team. Otherwise he would have this year when they badly needed it.

And I never said Odom would be better on the Heat. I said Bosh's impact was similar to Odom's...

And are you kidding about Dirk? He would sit out at the 3 point line and make 60 percent or better on wide open threes and would thrive in that role. Not that it means anything, but Dirk is on another level as a shooter than Bosh.

I know Bosh doesn't fit in well at times on offense with this team, but the problem is that Spo has determined not to feature him at any point in the game usually...even with Lebron / Wade out. He's just not good enough to do all the things you think he's capable of doing against quality teams in the playoffs.

If he was. Spo would play him against 2nd units more often and run an offense through him. He'd also play more minutes...etc.

He's antawn jamison. A guy that can put up good to great numbers on average teams...but isn't going to be able to give you the overall play needed to be featured on a title winning team. Thus he is relegated to a diminished role.

I have no doubt Bosh could average 20/10/2 or something like that if he played more minutes. But I don't think that team is likely to win the title....and that is the difference everyone seems to ignore.

[tpols]

What a bunch of bullshit from DMavs..

We SAW Chris Bosh put up 19/9 with a 25/5/5 Wade and 27/8/7 Lebron in 2011.

We saw it.:oldlol:

It worked perfectly.. the PnR game between Bron and Bosh in their first year was unstoppable. This article is from their series with the Bulls.. a team with one of the best frontcourts in the entire league.



Chris Bosh rose to the occasion on Sunday, helping the Miami Heat take a 2-1 series lead in the Eastern Conference Finals.

Bosh scored a game-high 34 points on 13 of 18 shooting from the field. It was the second-highest scoring game of his playoff career and second 30-point game this series.

Bosh had done most of his scoring from close proximity in Games 1 and 2, but found balance in Game 3.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29420/boshs-midrange-game-powers-heat

Bosh averaged 23/8 on 60% shooting and 70% TS in that series and was absolutely dominant in the PnR game against some of the toughest playoff defensive competition in recent times.



Bosh's role has been diminshed to make way for Lebron+shooters which won them the 2012 Finals.. theyre simply following a successful blueprint and relying on Lebron more than the big three. 2011 was their most dominant run however when the big three were all featured and are forever underrated by Lebrons collapse which led to them not capping it off.

[Jacks3]

Bosh is one of the best players in basketball, a guy whose numbers don't really reflect his impact as he's playing next to the most ball-dominant player in history. Fact is, this dude was putting up 24/10 on amazing efficiency (60% TS) as a #1 option before coming to Miami. He a terrific shooter who does a great job of spacing the floor, great P/R defender, solid rebounder, and most importantly he's a great team guy. He's playing out of position and doesn't complain. He's not getting anywhere near amount of touches he deserves and doesn't complain. He takes a ton of flak from the media but continues to go out there and just do his job.

Great and wildly unappreciated player.

[DMAVS41]

What a bunch of bullshit from DMavs..

We SAW Chris Bosh put up 19/9 with a 25/5/5 Wade and 27/8/7 Lebron in 2011.

We saw it.:oldlol:

It worked perfectly.. the PnR game between Bron and Bosh in their first year was unstoppable. This article is from their series with the Bulls.. a team with one of the best frontcourts in the entire league.



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29420/boshs-midrange-game-powers-heat

Bosh averaged 23/8 on 60% shooting and 70% TS in that series and was absolutely dominant in the PnR game against some of the toughest playoff defensive competition in recent times.



Bosh's role has been diminshed to make way for Lebron+shooters which won them the 2012 Finals.. theyre simply following a successful blueprint and relying on Lebron more than the big three. 2011 was their most dominant run however when the big three were all featured and are forever underrated by Lebrons collapse which led to them not capping it off.

We did see it. And he was the 3rd option. So what?

He has serious deficiencies in his game that make playing Bosh 40 mpg not ideal. Or you just think Spo hates Bosh.

It's honestly one or the other. Either the Heat have more players to play in place of Bosh now (which they do) or Spo just arbitrarily decided to play him 8 less minutes per game because of a personal vendetta or something.

Oh...and they lost. LOL

[DMAVS41]

Bosh is one of the best players in basketball, a guy whose numbers don't really reflect his impact as he's playing next to the most ball-dominant player in history. Fact is, this dude was putting up 24/10 on amazing efficiency (60% TS) as a #1 option before coming to Miami. He a terrific shooter who does a great job of spacing the floor, great P/R defender, solid rebounder, and most importantly he's a great team guy. He's playing out of position and doesn't complain. He's not getting anywhere near amount of touches he deserves and doesn't complain. He takes a ton of flak from the media but continues to go out there and just do his job.

Great and wildly unappreciated player.

Exactly. He's lamar odom from the Lakers.

Who is saying he just "sucks" or something?

He's good. A really good third option. But that is what he is. A third option on a title winning team. If Bosh is your 2nd best player...you aren't winning the title.

[TonyMontana]

I like how the Lakers fans always prop Bosh up.

Trade him for Dwight Howard and your tune would be different. :oldlol:

[tpols]

We did see it. And he was the 3rd option. So what?

Oh...and they lost. LOL
He was no Antwan Jamison.. the guy who averaged like 14/7 beside Lebron in the playoffs the previous year while Bosh dropped 19/9 the very following

He was the third option on a team with prime Dwayne Wade and Lebron James on it.:oldlol:

ANY power forward or center in the league besides

Dirk
Duncan
Howard

wouldve been a third option on that team. Any other big man..




They lost? They lost because Lebron choked. Not because the blueprint hadnt been working. lol

[DMAVS41]

He was no Antwan Jamison.. the guy who averaged like 14/7 beside Lebron in the playoffs the previous year while Bosh dropped 19/9 the very following

He was the third option on a team with prime Dwayne Wade and Lebron James on it.:oldlol:

ANY power forward or center in the league besides

Dirk
Duncan
Howard

wouldve been a third option on that team. Any other big man..

I'm talking prime Jamison. The Wizards Jamison that averaged something like 19/8 in the playoffs.

I'm not saying that he's not good because he was a third option behind Lebron and Wade.

Let me be clear.

I'm saying that Bosh is not good enough to be the 2nd best player on any team that wins the title. Like if you had Lebron and Bosh...and traded Wade for someone worse than Bosh. I don't think that could ever win the title.

Just like Odom. He couldn't be the 2nd best player on a title winning team imo, but he's a great third guy...just like Bosh.

So yea...his numbers would be a lot better, but I don't think you can win with Bosh as your 2nd best player. So in that sense I think he's wildly overvalued when I hear people saying he's as good as Pau or he's a star...etc.

[Sarcastic]

It's getting quite sickening how far Lebron stans will go to discredit his teammates.


If Lebron is so good, then why did he run to Miami to get more help? Why not just win it in Cleveland like he originally promised?

[Jacks3]

You can definitely win with Bosh as your 2nd best player. These LeBron stans are crazy. Dude was a 24/10/25 PER player before joining Miami. Do you realize how few bigs in history have put up numbers like that? You can't win with that as your 2nd best player? Dude is a 8-Time All-Star, Multiple All-NBA teams, multiple years as a top 15 player in this league, and you wanna compare him to a role-player in Odom? A guy who never made the All-Star team?


:wtf:

[tpols]

I'm talking prime Jamison. The Wizards Jamison that averaged something like 19/8 in the playoffs.

I'm not saying that he's not good because he was a third option behind Lebron and Wade.

Let me be clear.

I'm saying that Bosh is not good enough to be the 2nd best player on any team that wins the title. Like if you had Lebron and Bosh...and traded Wade for someone worse than Bosh. I don't think that could ever win the title.

Just like Odom. He couldn't be the 2nd best player on a title winning team imo, but he's a great third guy...just like Bosh.

So yea...his numbers would be a lot better, but I don't think you can win with Bosh as your 2nd best player. So in that sense I think he's wildly overvalued when I hear people saying he's as good as Pau or he's a star...etc.
Lebron wouldve gotten past the Celtics and had a chance at titles in Cleveland if he had Chris Bosh. He dropped 23ppg on ridiculous efficiency against one of the best frontlines in the NBA working the PnR game with Lebron while Wade was sidelined due to his horrible play in that series.

If you got rid of Wade and just gave Lebron prime Bosh + shooters and worked the PnR to death like James did with Illgauskas and Varejeo.. forget about it. They get past Boston. Bosh was 10x the offensive player those two were.

Bosh could be a 22+/9-10 player as a second option to any all time great perimeter player.. and yes with balanced depth good shooters and defensive role players, they could easily win titles with him as the second option.

[DMAVS41]

You can definitely win with Bosh as your 2nd best player. These LeBron stans are crazy. Dude was a 24/10/25 PER player before joining Miami. Do you realize how few bigs in history have put up numbers like that? You can't win with that as your 2nd best player? Dude is a 8-Time All-Star, Multiple All-NBA teams, multiple years as a top 15 player in this league, and you wanna compare him to a role-player in Odom? A guy who never made the All-Star team?


:wtf:

An Jamison had a 25/9/2 season. So what? No ****ing team was ever going to win the title with him as their 2nd best player.

Odom had a 19/11/5 and a 19/13/2 playoffs...so what? He's not good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title winning team.

[DMAVS41]

Lebron wouldve gotten past the Celtics and had a chance at titles in Cleveland if he had Chris Bosh. He dropped 23ppg on ridiculous efficiency against one of the best frontlines in the NBA working the PnR game with Lebron while Wade was sidelined due to his horrible play in that series.

If you got rid of Wade and just gave Lebron prime Bosh + shooters and worked the PnR to death like James did with Illgauskas and Varejeo.. forget about it. They get past Boston. Bosh was 10x the offensive player those two were.

Bosh could be a 22+/9-10 player as a second option to any all time great perimeter player.. and yes with balanced depth good shooters and defensive role players, they could easily win titles with him as the second option.

Well. I disagree, but I definitely can see how you would think that. It makes a lot of sense.

But I have been watching Bosh since he was in high school in Dallas...and I don't think he has what it takes to do that in him as the 2nd guy.

[tpols]

An Jamison had a 25/9/2 season. So what? No ****ing team was ever going to win the title with him as their 2nd best player.

Odom had a 19/11/5 and a 19/13/2 playoffs...so what? He's not good enough to be the 2nd best player on a title winning team.
Antwan Jamison was a garbage man who scored off broken plays and drives, and a stretch four. The very definition of a tweener. You of all people should no his impact is well below his stats. Tyson Chandler averaging 10/10 is more impactful than Jamison averaging 20+/9 because of their styles and impact outside of stats

Odom is just as talented as Bosh, but again he is a ballhandler and facilitator. He does the same things guards do.. its redundant.

Bosh runs the Pick and Roll much better than those guys.. his balance between pick and pop, screen setting everything to do with the big man PnR is much better than what Odom and Jamison do. Hes much better for chemistry with a great perimeter player.

[AintNoSunshine]

Great thread.

I like Bosh as a player a lot I think he plays with passion and is quite skilled. But I have never put much thought into whether he's the superstar that Lebron haters always label him to be.

After reading your post, I can't seem to be able to argue otherwise. He's definitely not a first option on a great team.

[Jacks3]

An Jamison had a 25/9/2 season. So what? No ****ing team was ever going to win the title with him as their 2nd best player.
Jamison is a horrible defender who gets his numbers off other guys and broken plays. Bosh was dropping 25/10 a night while creating everything, taking dudes off the dribble, getting to line 9-10 times a games, and destroying guys in isolation. And he's a good defender who also happens to be one of the best P/R defenders in basketball. Not even remotely comparable.

You're ****ing retarded if you think a team can't win a title with Bosh as the 2nd best player. Dude is a top 15 player in the league. Of course you can. Hell, give 2009 Wade somebody like Bosh and that team instantly becomes contenders. Or Bosh on the 09 Cavs. You telling me that team couldn't win it all?

LOL. C'mon now.

[DMAVS41]

Antwan Jamison was a garbage man who scored off broken plays and drives, and a stretch four. The very definition of a tweener. You of all people should no his impact is well below his stats. Tyson Chandler averaging 10/10 is more impactful than Jamison averaging 20+/9 because of their styles and impact outside of stats

Odom is just as talented as Bosh, but again he is a ballhandler and facilitator. He does the same things guards do.. its redundant.

Bosh runs the Pick and Roll much better than those guys.. his balance between pick and pop, screen setting everything to do with the big man PnR is much better than what Odom and Jamison do. Hes much better for chemistry with a great perimeter player.

Yes. Bosh fits better with a ball dominant perimeter player. But I dont' think that is how we should judge the impact of a player.

Not to mention...the fact that he actually fits in well with a ball dominant perimeter player...and he's been relegated to a non factor is not a good argument for your side.

I've said it a million times and I'm not budging until I see reason to. Bosh is a really good third option that is clearly extremely talented and has the ability to produce like a legit 2nd guy...but if Bosh is your 2nd best player...I see no evidence that a team could win the title that way.

And we can excuse everything...and some of the excuses are legit. But the guy just got done averaging 13/8/1 over his last 33 playoff games. At some point you are what you are...

[tpols]

Yes. Bosh fits better with a ball dominant perimeter player. But I dont' think that is how we should judge the impact of a player.
The fit and chemistry between your first option and your second option is not a deciding factor in how far your team could advance? Were talking about Bosh winning as a second option.. and his fit with potential first options being BETTER than the guys you listed isnt a consideration?

Makes noooooo sense

[DMAVS41]

The fit and chemistry between your first option and your second option is not a deciding factor in how far your team could advance? Were talking about Bosh winning as a second option.. and his fit with potential first options being BETTER than the guys you listed isnt a consideration?

Makes noooooo sense

What?

Odom fits better around other players. I'd rather have Odom around prime Duncan or Dirk or KG or Howard.

So I don't see the point. And it actually is a point for me. Bosh, according to you, is playing on a team that he fits in well with. Yet his coach has relegated him to a non factor and his cut his minutes down hugely since he joined.

Wonder why?

[tpols]

What?

Odom fits better around other players. I'd rather have Odom around prime Duncan or Dirk or KG or Howard.

Odom is a ballhandler but he isnt going to be handling the ball all game long like a Kobe/Wade/Lebron.. hes just not nearly as good as them and running the show from the perimeter.

For a big man, yes that ability is impressive and very useful in spurts like how he was used in his sixth man role. As a primary ballhandler going up against the other elite ballhandlers in the league for 40 minutes a night? Nope. not even close. Odom cant do that.

Bosh can run a PnR as the primary finisher all game long. Thats the difference. One type of play is sustainable and the other isnt.

Bosh was one of the best offensive big men in the league when the big three formed. 23/11 the previous year and 19/9 against great competition in the playoffs afterwards.. 23/8 against their toughest defensive opponent. He wouldve averaged even more if Wade wasnt there. The proof is all laid out.

[tpols]

To make it clear, I dont think Bosh is all that better than Lamar Odom. Theyre very similar talents, one is just more of your traditional big man on offense and especially in the PnR. And that matters fit/chemistry wise which determines how good the team actually is.

Teams with Duncan/KG etc arent going to be looking for another PF to throw in their lineup. They already have incredible talent at the position. Theyre looking for the parker/manus and pierce/allens and cassell/sprewells.. perimeter + post talent.

[OldSkoolball#52]

It's getting quite sickening how far Lebron stans will go to discredit his teammates.


If Lebron is so good, then why did he run to Miami to get more help? Why not just win it in Cleveland like he originally promised?


The truth is, for a long time people basically said "All you need to put around Lebron is shooters, and you'll get a chip."

But CLE never could put good shooters around him. Mo Williams shot well in the regular season then completely gagged in the post season. Jamison was horrendous, Donyell Marshall... Damon Jones and Delonte West were whatever. Boobie was the only legit shooter.

The main difference between Mia and Cle is Shane Battier, Mike Miller, RAY ALLEN, even guys like Cole and Chalmers can hit. I mean Bosh had zero points in game 7. Wade had a good game but sucked in most of the playoffs.

The difference was the shooters. I mean are you really acting like Wade or Bosh played close to Lebrons level? Are you saying he shares the work/production on an even level with either or both of them?

Lebron is far and away his teams best player. Like Dirk in his run, like Duncan and Shaq in some of theirs. It is what it is. Deal with it and go pretend like Carmelo will ever win something.

[BoutPractice]

The argument is convincing on the surface but I think Bosh would've have built on his individual resume and ended up deserving the superstar label if he hadn't joined the Big 3. He had the ability to do so, he just chose to put aside personal accolades for titles.

[iamgine]

For a moment...im gonna sit aside that he just put up 12/7 in the playoffs and scored zero in game 7...and im gonna ignore that he only started 10 games of the playoffs last year and put up Horace Grant numbers when he did play.

Id like to talk about Toronto.

In Toronto...Chris Bosh put up around 22-23 a game most of the time. Peaked just under 11 boards. 9 in 3 other years.

They won I believe...3...playoff games in 7 years.

*looks into that*

He was 6-14 and 3-11 in 2 of those 3 wins. Anthony Parker was the leading scorer for the raptors in the other one(Bosh did have 25/10 though).

He was all NBA one time in the 7 years. It was a second team. He got MVP votes in two seasons. He came in 7th and 12th.

For comparisons sake:

Buck Williams 1 all nba second team as well. Came in 7th, 10th, and 14th in his highest MVP years.

Anthony Mason has one all nba team(3rd). Came in 9th and 15th his best MVP years.

David Lee 3rd team...12th.

Marion...couple 3rd teams...10 and 14th.

Jermaine Oneal 3 time all NBa 3rd in MVP voting once.

Vin Baker 3rd team...second team...8th in MVP voting.

Brand second team...7th place. Same as Bosh. Even won the same number of games those seasons I believe.


The Raptors were 221-271 in his run as franchise player.

I mentioned the 3 total playoff wins.

In the last 25 years or so id say these are the bigmen ive seen called superstars/elite players/whatever you wanna call it on a fairly regular basis:


Shaq, Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Duncan, Webber, KG, Dwight, Dirk, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp for 45 minutes, Ewing, Amare. And Chris Bosh. Maybe Jermaine Oneal? Maybe.

To be fair Bosh mostly gets/got that talk as part of the Big Three thing where it just makes more sense to call it a big 3 of stars than a Big 2 and another good player.

But whatever the reason....

Hes gotta be the least accomplished and flat out least effective bigman ive seen get that label. I mean once we throw out the guys who just fell apart due to injury like Amare and guys like Kemp or maybe add Blake who got superstar talk due to the fame of their highlight reels.

Of the guys like Bosh who really sustained healthy careers...

Is he not the worst bigman of your lifetime to get the superstar label and keep it?

If not...who is?

Kevin Love perhaps? Who id have to throw in the injured area but im not in love with him either.

Isnt what hes actually accomplished far more along the lines of....

Mcdyess
Boozer
Vin Baker
Larry Nance
Juwan Howard
Sheed
Shareef abdur-Rahim
Brand
Otis Thorpe
Ben Wallace
Randolph
Aldridge

..and people like that...than say...

EVERY other power forward considered a superstar the last quarter century?

He follows it up by gradually becoming Ac Green...and he gets to keep superstar status?

He never should have had it in the first place. But if you insist on giving it to him...I must ask.

You consider Zach Randolph his first couple years on Memphis a superstar?

If not...why not?

I will say that Bosh in Toronto had a mean first step for a bigman, we all know about his jumper, he rebounded about as well as a 7 footer should in 35-40 minutes a night, and was not a bad defender.

I will also say....

He put up 11 points and 4 rebounds a game in a seven game conference finals...and he shot 37%.

Ill add that he has stepped up several times when Lebron or Wade are out. And I believe that if put back into a situation to be leaned on he would still put up 20 and 8 or 9.

But I will include that he had 8 20/10 games this entire season including the playoffs. Zach Randolph had 7 just in the playoffs in 2011.

There is the usual "Wade and Lebron dont let him shoot" claim.

He took 4 shots less this season than his career high. The Heat role players(as in...not the Big 3) average 31 shots a night. I suspect he could pull a few out of there. Im not going to pretend its as simple as FGA especially considering that he used to isolate and attack to draw fouls which dont count in FGAs.

Do me the courtesy of assuming I know that and ill do any Bosh fans the courtesy is not going into a long "Since when is not getting shots an excuse to stop rebounding" thing.

He has slowly become a jump shooter who doesnt even attempt to attack on his touches, his rebounding per game and per minute are career lows, hes stopped even making the open jumpers and people still...want to give him superstar status.

So I have to ask....what exactly did he do in Toronto to justify holding him in high regard even when hes become a role player?

He didnt exactly build the most sparkling resume to just hold over no matter how hard he falls off.

At least not to me.

Clearly he did to some of you.

Feel free to educate me.

Is it the all star games?

That it?

You make several all star games in a row you get to be a superstar forever no matter if you play like it or not and even if your team lost 50 more games than it won?
I think it's just a different system that he's unable to make the most of. I mean, think if Steve Nash didn't go to the Suns. Would he still be an excellent PG? Heck yeah. Would he be playing at the level of 2x MVP The Steve Nash? Not even close.

[bdreason]

It's one superstar SF, one former superstar SG, and an all-star caliber PF.

People should just be real about it, and call them LeBron & Friends.



As for Bosh, I think he's actually underrated on the Heat. The team wants him to play a specific way, and his statistics suffer because of it. His ability to be effective and efficient in their offense, is reliant upon Wade and LeBron performing. Bosh is essentially a decoy, used to open up the court for LeBron and Wade, and then people want bitch about how all he does is take jumpers all game and doesn't get enough rebounds.

Look, I think Bosh needs to be more aggressive on offense as well (and he was in Toronto), but you can't ask a guy to play decoy all season, and then when LeBron and Wade aren't performing in the playoffs, all of a sudden expect Bosh to just shift into attack mode. In Toronto, Bosh averaged more than 8 FTA's per game, and although still a jump shooting big, actually got to the line quite a bit off the drive. This season in Miami, Bosh averaged just over 4 FTA's per game... but that's what happens when you turn a #1 option player into a decoy.

[DMAVS41]

It's one superstar SF, one former superstar SG, and an all-star caliber PF.

People should just be real about it, and call them LeBron & Friends.



As for Bosh, I think he's actually underrated on the Heat. The team wants him to play a specific way, and his statistics suffer because of it. His ability to be effective and efficient in their offense, is reliant upon Wade and LeBron performing. Bosh is essentially a decoy, used to open up the court for LeBron and Wade, and then people want bitch about how all he does is take jumpers all game and doesn't get enough rebounds.

Look, I think Bosh needs to be more aggressive on offense as well (and he was in Toronto), but you can't ask a guy to play decoy all season, and then when LeBron and Wade aren't performing in the playoffs, all of a sudden expect Bosh to just shift into attack mode. In Toronto, Bosh averaged more than 8 FTA's per game, and although still a jump shooting big, actually got to the line quite a bit off the drive. This season in Miami, Bosh averaged just over 4 FTA's per game... but that's what happens when you turn a #1 option player into a decoy.

True.

It also is what happens when you are on a team that is actually winning and competing for a title.

I've just seen too many players produce well on poor to average teams over the last 35 plus years watching the NBA to continue to make the same mistake...

[Horatio33]

He was no Antwan Jamison.. the guy who averaged like 14/7 beside Lebron in the playoffs the previous year while Bosh dropped 19/9 the very following .

Blaze meant when Jamison was a Warrior and a Wizard, great numbers, zero impact. Someone has to score the points, right?

[eriX]

once again you have the lebron/heat haters overrating bosh and lebron stans underrating bosh... just another day in ISH.

Bosh is no superstar but his role in the heat offense is one of the most fitting... this is a guy who sacrifice his stats for the team offense, because lets be honest you have two other players whos capable of scoring much better than bosh so why would you run your offense through bosh... And to those who always claim people to be 'ball dominant' players... you can only be dominant if the offense dictates you are the one holding the ball... i swear people dont even know what offense teams run other than iso ball...

And about boshs stats, i wonder how many people who claims that a player putting up big numbers is always impactful are those who claim lebrons numbers lie and that the east is weak (e.g. rip).

[ILLsmak]

bosh was never a super star. he is a solid all-star who is not being used to his full potential since he is a pf playing centre

Yeah, I mean if somehow Wade got taken off the team and replaced with a straight up shooter and their whole offense was structured around Bosh and LeBron pick and rolls/ 1-4s for Lebron, I could see Bosh getting 20ppg pretty easily. But there aren't many superstars in the NBA period. He's definitely a top guy at his position, though.

I bet next year he comes out and does a lot better. He's gonna be wetting 3s a lot next year, bet.

-Smak

[G-train]

The argument is convincing on the surface but I think Bosh would've have built on his individual resume and ended up deserving the superstar label if he hadn't joined the Big 3. He had the ability to do so, he just chose to put aside personal accolades for titles.

This is the main thing people neglect. Bosh was just coming into his peak play, and was already playing like a allstar. Now with 3 years at a great organisation learning winning ball, I am certain he would be a superstar forward on both ends with the right team and opportunity, and he could be a 1b or 2 on a title contender.

[Kblaze8855]

I have no doubt that if you removed one of the stars he would go back to being a 20ppg player. he was doing 19 a couple years ago with both of them. I dont think many have questioned that.

I just dont think that makes him special. I mean...not...special for a good player. Hes special by normal standards. By better than average bigman standards id say he isnt.

Hes no more special than a lot of guys ive never seen get the superstar label many of which accomplished more than he did when he had his own team.

If hes a superstar bigman....he has to be the worst there ever was. If he isnt....its one of those players who was more famous than great. Of people who earned the superstar title at his position for just.....being effective players and not just as great dunkers people loved....

The worst really has to be him or Jermaine Oneal doesnt it?

Have anyone else?

[iamgine]

In a way isn't he like Pau Gasol? Or are you saying Gasol was way better than him back then?

[Kblaze8855]

In a way isn't he like Pau Gasol? Or are you saying Gasol was way better than him back then?


Way better? No.

Not way better. Better for the kind of team id like though. I was saying I wanted the Bulls to trade for Gasol and not Kobe when Kobe demanded out and the rumor was he was coming to the Bulls. At the time we needed a Gasol more than a Kobe who would cost a lot more.



And im trying to find a topic I made when JO was traded to the raptors on how id never been more sure a combo of star bigmen wouldnt win shit than I was about those raptors. All I could find is:


So the raptors 3 best players are now Bosh, Jermaine Oneal, and Calderon? Im not sure 3 legit good players who I cared so little about have ever been on one team together.



From a topic with Raptors fans predicting contender status. But to be fair to JO he wasnt the same. I really wish he got back to Pacers form in Toronto just so I could watch them win 54 games and lose in the first round.

[Sarcastic]

The truth is, for a long time people basically said "All you need to put around Lebron is shooters, and you'll get a chip."

But CLE never could put good shooters around him. Mo Williams shot well in the regular season then completely gagged in the post season. Jamison was horrendous, Donyell Marshall... Damon Jones and Delonte West were whatever. Boobie was the only legit shooter.

The main difference between Mia and Cle is Shane Battier, Mike Miller, RAY ALLEN, even guys like Cole and Chalmers can hit. I mean Bosh had zero points in game 7. Wade had a good game but sucked in most of the playoffs.

The difference was the shooters. I mean are you really acting like Wade or Bosh played close to Lebrons level? Are you saying he shares the work/production on an even level with either or both of them?

Lebron is far and away his teams best player. Like Dirk in his run, like Duncan and Shaq in some of theirs. It is what it is. Deal with it and go pretend like Carmelo will ever win something.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG58oZyw538


How quickly people forget. :rolleyes:

[eriX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG58oZyw538


How quickly people forget. :rolleyes:

cmon that was what like 5 3 pters, all open and only one were half contested...

[bagelred]

For a moment...im gonna sit aside that he just put up 12/7 in the playoffs and scored zero in game 7...and im gonna ignore that he only started 10 games of the playoffs last year and put up Horace Grant numbers when he did play.

Id like to talk about Toronto.

In Toronto...Chris Bosh put up around 22-23 a game most of the time. Peaked just under 11 boards. 9 in 3 other years.

They won I believe...3...playoff games in 7 years.

*looks into that*

He was 6-14 and 3-11 in 2 of those 3 wins. Anthony Parker was the leading scorer for the raptors in the other one(Bosh did have 25/10 though).

He was all NBA one time in the 7 years. It was a second team. He got MVP votes in two seasons. He came in 7th and 12th.

For comparisons sake:

Buck Williams 1 all nba second team as well. Came in 7th, 10th, and 14th in his highest MVP years.

Anthony Mason has one all nba team(3rd). Came in 9th and 15th his best MVP years.

David Lee 3rd team...12th.

Marion...couple 3rd teams...10 and 14th.

Jermaine Oneal 3 time all NBa 3rd in MVP voting once.

Vin Baker 3rd team...second team...8th in MVP voting.

Brand second team...7th place. Same as Bosh. Even won the same number of games those seasons I believe.


The Raptors were 221-271 in his run as franchise player.

I mentioned the 3 total playoff wins.

In the last 25 years or so id say these are the bigmen ive seen called superstars/elite players/whatever you wanna call it on a fairly regular basis:


Shaq, Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakeem, Duncan, Webber, KG, Dwight, Dirk, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp for 45 minutes, Ewing, Amare. And Chris Bosh. Maybe Jermaine Oneal? Maybe.

To be fair Bosh mostly gets/got that talk as part of the Big Three thing where it just makes more sense to call it a big 3 of stars than a Big 2 and another good player.

But whatever the reason....

Hes gotta be the least accomplished and flat out least effective bigman ive seen get that label. I mean once we throw out the guys who just fell apart due to injury like Amare and guys like Kemp or maybe add Blake who got superstar talk due to the fame of their highlight reels.

Of the guys like Bosh who really sustained healthy careers...

Is he not the worst bigman of your lifetime to get the superstar label and keep it?

If not...who is?

Kevin Love perhaps? Who id have to throw in the injured area but im not in love with him either.

Isnt what hes actually accomplished far more along the lines of....

Mcdyess
Boozer
Vin Baker
Larry Nance
Juwan Howard
Sheed
Shareef abdur-Rahim
Brand
Otis Thorpe
Ben Wallace
Randolph
Aldridge

..and people like that...than say...

EVERY other power forward considered a superstar the last quarter century?

He follows it up by gradually becoming Ac Green...and he gets to keep superstar status?

He never should have had it in the first place. But if you insist on giving it to him...I must ask.

You consider Zach Randolph his first couple years on Memphis a superstar?

If not...why not?

I will say that Bosh in Toronto had a mean first step for a bigman, we all know about his jumper, he rebounded about as well as a 7 footer should in 35-40 minutes a night, and was not a bad defender.

I will also say....

He put up 11 points and 4 rebounds a game in a seven game conference finals...and he shot 37%.

Ill add that he has stepped up several times when Lebron or Wade are out. And I believe that if put back into a situation to be leaned on he would still put up 20 and 8 or 9.

But I will include that he had 8 20/10 games this entire season including the playoffs. Zach Randolph had 7 just in the playoffs in 2011.

There is the usual "Wade and Lebron dont let him shoot" claim.

He took 4 shots less this season than his career high. The Heat role players(as in...not the Big 3) average 31 shots a night. I suspect he could pull a few out of there. Im not going to pretend its as simple as FGA especially considering that he used to isolate and attack to draw fouls which dont count in FGAs.

Do me the courtesy of assuming I know that and ill do any Bosh fans the courtesy is not going into a long "Since when is not getting shots an excuse to stop rebounding" thing.

He has slowly become a jump shooter who doesnt even attempt to attack on his touches, his rebounding per game and per minute are career lows, hes stopped even making the open jumpers and people still...want to give him superstar status.

So I have to ask....what exactly did he do in Toronto to justify holding him in high regard even when hes become a role player?

He didnt exactly build the most sparkling resume to just hold over no matter how hard he falls off.

At least not to me.

Clearly he did to some of you.

Feel free to educate me.

Is it the all star games?

That it?

You make several all star games in a row you get to be a superstar forever no matter if you play like it or not and even if your team lost 50 more games than it won?



Interesting take....I think you nailed it. :cheers:










did not read.

[DMAVS41]

In a way isn't he like Pau Gasol? Or are you saying Gasol was way better than him back then?

For me...I think it depends on how you define "way better"

I don't think the Lakers win titles with Bosh in place of Gasol...and Gasol just adds so much value with his passing.

So maybe that is "way better"...not sure

[chips93]

To be fair Bosh mostly gets/got that talk as part of the Big Three thing where it just makes more sense to call it a big 3 of stars than a Big 2 and another good player.

this is pretty much it i think

but hes the most overqualified role player in the league

[bdreason]

I have no doubt that if you removed one of the stars he would go back to being a 20ppg player. he was doing 19 a couple years ago with both of them. I dont think many have questioned that.

I just dont think that makes him special. I mean...not...special for a good player. Hes special by normal standards. By better than average bigman standards id say he isnt.

Hes no more special than a lot of guys ive never seen get the superstar label many of which accomplished more than he did when he had his own team.

If hes a superstar bigman....he has to be the worst there ever was. If he isnt....its one of those players who was more famous than great. Of people who earned the superstar title at his position for just.....being effective players and not just as great dunkers people loved....

The worst really has to be him or Jermaine Oneal doesnt it?

Have anyone else?


Who calls Bosh a superstar? I've never heard anyone, not even the media, refer to Bosh as a superstar. He's an all-star caliber PF, nothing more, nothing less.

[Horatio33]

Bosh called himself a future hall of gamer earlier this season. Made me scratch my head a bit.

[get these NETS]

Bosh is not a big man

sort of a "tweener"

natural nba small forward & skillset of a player who played and raised in europe

but without passing ability


not quite a power forward(doesn't board).....not quite a small forward


not a big man.....

al jefferson and zach randolph though definitely shorter are big men....

[Kblaze8855]

Who calls Bosh a superstar? I've never heard anyone, not even the media, refer to Bosh as a superstar. He's an all-star caliber PF, nothing more, nothing less.

Never heard of anyone....but its said inthis topic?

The Big 3 being 3 superstars was repeated hourly on espn for years. First link when googled:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9131245/nba-chris-bosh-game-superstar-level

Also:




Why Chris Bosh is a superstar

Bosh's role among the Miami SuperFriends obscures his true quality



Chris Bosh beat the Spurs with a 3-pointer, but is that really what a big man is supposed to do?
Obviously, the Miami Heat must retain you-know-who in 2014, when he can become a free agent, as he's not yet 30 years old, he's at the top of his game, and he's coveted the league over.

The man's certainly proven himself worthy of such high-level, pull-out-all-stops wooing. After we saw him at his weakest moment in the 2011 Finals, he swam through an unrelenting media bile flood, persevered, and came out a champion on the other end. In the most nervy, high-leverage drama, he pulled Miami back from the brink with big shot after big shot. Let the skewering subside, because this is his time.

Those two paragraphs could describe LeBron James, but the above sentences also fit quite snugly around the game and reputation of a gawky, brilliant center. He is Chris Bosh, a big man hiding in plain sight, a superstar obscured while playing for the most visible team, and a winner facing the kind of unabated public mockery that greets losers.

Bosh is better than ever, though he's had a difficult time convincing folks of this while plying his trade as a supposed third wheel. He's made sacrifices for victories, and such sacrifices have resulted in withheld praise as the wins pile up. It's principally why he's the most maligned Big Three member, despite last year's playoffs proving Miami's stark need for his presence. It's principally why, with Dwight Howard still not 100 percent, Bosh has a claim to the "best big man" title, a designation usually reserved for guys who live near the rim.





Bosh has been called a superstar for at least....6 years. He just has not played like it in a long time.

[Kblaze8855]

Bosh called himself a future hall of gamer earlier this season. Made me scratch my head a bit.

Bosh is a hall of famer. hes gonna end up a 10 time all star and 2 or more time champ on the highest profile team of his era.

Those guys make the hall of fame. Its not the hall of great. Guys are in the hall who were like....all NBA third team once.