Would you be happier for/respect more the Heat, if their team formed naturally?

[MavsSuperFan]

I think one of the reasons I don't really like the Heat is because the way they formed. They all took less money and teamed up so that winning a championship would be easier. There is something cheap about that to me. Like putting in cheat codes.

Other super teams in the past didnt have their best players decide to collude and team up. MJ didnt call magic and bird to team up so that he could win easily.

[fpliii]

Makes no difference to me, couldn't care less what free agents choose to do after their contracts are fulfilled.

[Rake2204]

I think I'd be happier for them, yes. That's pretty much been the crux of my issue in the first place. All those players completely had the right to do what they did and it was all perfectly legal. However, whatever line I had in terms of sustaining competition and parity felt crossed when the best player I've seen since MJ hatched a grand plan to create a super power.

They're all still great players. Their success just strikes me different knowing it was all manufactured by an agreement by each player to work the system in a manner so as to create an absolute super power that could roll to multiple championships even when not at full strength.

Thinking about it now, I have to admit, if LeBron James was a Cavalier (an era I was a big fan of) and Cleveland controversially dealt him to Miami against his will (full with LBJ giving a reluctant and tearful goodbye from a downtown Cleveland pub), I probably would have felt better about the Miami situation than how it actually shook down.

Some people are fans of winning. Some are fans of how they win. I'd say I'm more of the latter, and I'm not a fan of how Miami won. I suppose it's similar to why I'm not a huge fan of the Detroit Red Wings' 2002 Stanley Cup when their team was comprised of the likes of Brett Hull, Dominik Hasek, and Luc Robitaille (in addition to lifetime Wings Sergei Fedorov and Steve Yzerman). I guess the saving grace there was that nearly each superstar was out of his prime and near retirement and the Wings had won without those stars just a few years earlier, but it still felt manufactured to a point.

[ElPigto]

I definitely would have more respect. I do have respects for their accomplishments thus far, but I definitely see them a little different than I see other teams in the past. Even Lebron, as much as I credit him and absolutely think he is a top 15 player of all time (you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise), I simply can not believe he is the GOAT as many think he is. He definitely has been a special player in our league, but the way he had to come together with three other superstars, was pretty pathetic. I don't believe in winning by yourself mentality either (Jordan had Pippen, Shaq had Kobe, Kobe had Pau, etc.) but creating a team the way they did was whack. I personally don't like it, but whatever. I wouldn't be mad if it was the team I rooted for though lol.

[SCdac]

Yes.

They basically colluded, and since then it's been a magnet for talent like Ray Allen, Battier, and such (the effects of them teaming up haven't ended).

It's not quite the first time in history it's happened, and I would say the same thing about any previous "super teams", but something about Bron, Wade, and Bosh teaming up seemed so fabricated, cheap, and desperate.

http://www.miamiheatwave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Jordan_Bird_Johnson.jpg

[Dro]

Yes.

They basically colluded, and since then it's been a magnet for talent like Ray Allen, Battier, and such (the effects of them teaming up haven't ended).

It's not quite the first time in history it's happened, and I would say the same thing about any previous "super teams", but something about Bron, Wade, and Bosh teaming up seemed so fabricated, cheap, and desperate.

http://www.miamiheatwave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Jordan_Bird_Johnson.jpg
:applause:

[Nuff Said]

No, you hate Miami because they're not your team. If lebron and wade joined your team you would've give two shits and you'd be rooting for em just like us.

[PJR]

Unrestricted free agency is 'natural'. :confusedshrug:

The disliking of the formation of the current Heat core has always been a case of emotion overriding logic and reason.

[poido123]

No, you hate Miami because they're not your team. If lebron and wade joined your team you would've give two shits and you'd be rooting for em just like us.

This post smells of insecurity.

It's ok to admit it and still support your team.

It's a problem when you deny the truth of it all.

[Duderonomy]

Yes.

They basically colluded, and since then it's been a magnet for talent like Ray Allen, Battier, and such (the effects of them teaming up haven't ended).

It's not quite the first time in history it's happened, and I would say the same thing about any previous "super teams", but something about Bron, Wade, and Bosh teaming up seemed so fabricated, cheap, and desperate.

http://www.miamiheatwave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Jordan_Bird_Johnson.jpg
The problem I have with this pic is Bosh is nothing compared to any of those three. If anything Jordan joining the mid 90's Sonics would be more more accurate. I might be selling Kemp short comparing him to Bosh. Although Wade might be better than Payton. Pat taking Wade over Kamen turned out to be the difference between 3 championships. If you count the chain reactions.

[InfiniteBaskets]

I think one of the reasons I don't really like the Heat is because the way they formed. They all took less money and teamed up so that winning a championship would be easier. There is something cheap about that to me. Like putting in cheat codes.



San Antonio has been doing this with Parker and Duncan in their past contracts. Seems like the article below commends Duncan for being unselfish and allowing San Antonio to keep top 5 MVP candidate Parker as well as resign Ginobli and Danny Green.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/tim-duncan-cut-paycheck-half-san-antonio-spurs-161015938--nba.html


Dirk also came out and said he'd sacrifice money to make it easier for the Mavs to sign Dwight Howard. Are we all just going to pick on the Heat because their players are more talented and have achieved more success out players who take pay cuts?

[Rake2204]

Unrestricted free agency is 'natural'. :confusedshrug:

The disliking of the formation of the current Heat core has always been a case of emotion overriding logic and reason.I think emotion is supposed to be a big part of being a fan. I mean, at this point, there's really no logic behind me being a Pistons fan, for instance, but I am anyway. So I'm not sure it's just as simple as finding the logic and reason behind everything and following as such.

I think a few of us here have actually said, logically and reasonably, that what James and company chose to do was well within their rights. Further, I think most of us acknowledge their high skill and ability. It's just personally, in terms of what I look for in sports, I don't like the idea that emerging victorious can be as easy as the best player in the world jumping ship to a super team, alongside super star teammates in a system that continuously attracts the perfect role players to fill in the blanks, leading to multiple championships even when that team underperforms.


San Antonio has been doing this with Parker and Duncan in their past contracts. Seems like the article below commends Duncan for being unselfish and allowing San Antonio to keep top 5 MVP candidate Parker as well as resign Ginobli and Danny Green.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/tim-duncan-cut-paycheck-half-san-antonio-spurs-161015938--nba.html


Dirk also came out and said he'd sacrifice money to make it easier for the Mavs to sign Dwight Howard. Are we all just going to pick on the Heat because their players are more talented and have achieved more success out players who take pay cuts?I've said this before, but the Heat thing just felt different. And that's coming from someone who honestly enjoyed James' and Bosh's games when they played for their previous teams (teams for which I had no association). Maybe SCdac was right. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the Heat move felt... off.

Maybe it's because in the past I felt teams attempting to "stack" strictly through free agency often had to give something up in the process. It felt like give and take. Or, if nothing else, even if it worked out exactly how they wanted, it never seemed it'd be as easy as they wished it would be ('04 Lakers, '13 Lakers, late 90's Rockets, etc.). So there was a comfort there, where a team going the superstar route was still going to require something more.

In Miami's case, it just all felt too easy. And it was all done in a manner I found unbecoming. I derive no joy from watching a bunch of superstars agreeing to play with one another and bragging about how great they're going to be (alongside the ease with which they'll repeatedly destroy their undermanned opponents).

Without any previous issues with Bosh and James (I admit I wasn't a fan of the '06 Heat though), I must say something just all felt off about the way the team came to be. I obviously have a tough time articulating what my issue is or was, but I insist it's not because I had some deep-rooted hatred for James before he made his move.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Not really. They all played out their contracts, and then they teamed up. If they pulled a D12/CP3 and bitched their way out of their teams to join up, then I won't respect anything they do.

[PJR]

I think emotion is supposed to be a big part of being a fan. I mean, at this point, there's really no logic behind me being a Pistons fan, for instance, but I am anyway. So I'm not sure it's just as simple as finding the logic and reason behind everything and following as such.

I think a few of us here have actually said, logically and reasonably, that what James and company chose to do was well within their rights. Further, I think most of us acknowledge their high skill and ability. It's just personally, in terms of what I look for in sports, I don't like the idea that emerging victorious can be as easy as the best player in the world jumping ship to a super team, alongside super star teammates in a system that continuously attracts the perfect role players to fill in the blanks, leading to multiple championships even when that team underperforms.

I don't have any issue with you feeling this way. As, a sports fan you're entitled to feel however. And you are right, that emotion is a big part of being a sports fan.

But as we also know, with comes emotion comes irrationality. Particularly in the subject of sports. And the Heat/LeBron post July 2010 have shown this to be so.

[Nuff Said]

This post smells of insecurity.

It's ok to admit it and still support your team.

It's a problem when you deny the truth of it all.

Insecurity? The truth is the truth. I do not hate nor lack respect for my team and I'm 100% certain op would have no ill-feelings towards his fav team either. Bottom line is nothing they did was wrong. All done within the rules of the game. I was a fan of Melo and also rooted for ny when they got together.

[poido123]

Insecurity? The truth is the truth. I do not hate nor lack respect for my team and I'm 100% certain op would have no ill-feelings towards his fav team either. Bottom line is nothing they did was wrong. All done within the rules of the game. I was a fan of Melo and also rooted for ny when they got together.

If my team had formed like that, in that type of manner, I would find it incredibly hard to stomach being a fan of the team. I would probably have to go into hibernation to avoid the criticism that would come with it.

There's nothing wrong with politicians, but do we like them? No. Same thing with the Heat.

[Rake2204]

I don't have any issue with you feeling this way. As, a sports fan you're entitled to feel however. And you are right, that emotion is a big part of being a sports fan.

But as we also know, with comes emotion comes irrationality. Particularly in the subject of sports. And the Heat/LeBron post July 2010 have shown this to be so.Often a true point in regards to emotion. I ask sincerely, what does this conclude to you about this Heat situation though? Would it be deemed logical to be happy for the Heat? Does logic really exist when it comes to interest and support in the NBA? I feel a lot of this would be open to interpretation, similar to how one person may like a movie while another person may hate it.

On the other hand, maybe your point just flew over my head.

[plowking]

Its funny. The Heat added two players, and its a huge deal.

What if the Bulls got him? Same thing. Adding two players. Boozer and James, and at the time there was a lot of talks between who was better out of Boozer or Bosh.
What if he went to the Knicks? Amare and Bron. Two players again.

I was surprised James came to the Heat. I had to text my friend 3 times from work confirming he was sure, just so I didn't get excited for no reason. And its funny, the same people complaining about how this team was formed, were the same people hoping he came onto their team when "the decision" was announced. I seriously couldn't stand Lebron on Cleveland, and I was still hoping he came to the Heat despite it due to how tremendously talented he is. I guess if he didn't come here, I'd still despise him, but I sure wouldn't have any problem with a team he joined, or how he joined. I'd just continue to hope he never got a championship... But its all different now.

Same deal with when Lakers got Gasol. People were losing their shit, but in the end, its sports. You're allowed to trade, you're allowed to sign wherever you want.

[Ancient Legend]

Whining and threatening the FO for a trade to a contender is a bitch move. Playing out your contract is not.

[PJR]

Often a true point in regards to emotion. I ask sincerely, what does this conclude to you about this Heat situation though? Would it be deemed logical to be happy for the Heat? Does logic really exist when it comes to interest and support in the NBA? I feel a lot of this would be open to interpretation, similar to how one person may like a movie while another person may hate it.

On the other hand, maybe your point just flew over my head.

No no, I would not deem it logical for you be happy for the Heat at all. Don't get me wrong. Unless you were a Heat fan yourself, you don't have to happy or support anything about the Heat. You could be indifferent, or flat out hate them for all I care. Like I said, you are anybody else are entitled to feel however.

I just flatly disagree with the premise and stigma some attempt to try to attach on the Heat. For example, some making the assertion that the Heat aren't 'natural' or 'organic' enough. And I like I said, I feel like in most cases, those are cases of emotion overriding logic. It's all special pleading really.

[gasolina]

What if the Bulls got him? Same thing. Adding two players. Boozer and James, and at the time there was a lot of talks between who was better out of Boozer or Bosh.
What if he went to the Knicks? Amare and Bron. Two players again.
Wasn't the events leading to the decision all for show too? Like Riley had Lebron in his right pocket while Lebron had the Knicks and Nets put out powerpoint presentations on their case?

I think that's another issue too. The heat wasn't even formed like traditional free agent acquisitions. All of them knew this was happening.

Lebron, Wade and Bosh structured their contracts so they all expire at the same time. The Heat brazenly clearing capspace, even trading their #2 pick for no security, like they knew there were gonna get James & co. The big three even got to pick a cool city to play and live and party in.

That said, none of this is illegal, but it's certainly not competitive. The free agency/trading rules were in place to help promote parity in the league.

[Mr Exlax]

I guess I'm alone on this, but it doesn't bother me at all. Cleveland is never gonna land a top free agent nor be able to build through the draft. Same thing with Toronto. I've also left jobs to go to a better one so I guess that's why i don't mind.

[BoutPractice]

No.

Miami's not my team, but I'll be honest for a second... if Dallas formed a superteam through free agency and won another championship thanks to it, I'd be happier than if they tried to do it the SA way and failed. Just because it's someone else doing it doesn't make it worse.

[Rake2204]

No no, I would not deem it logical for you be happy for the Heat at all. Don't get me wrong. Unless you were a Heat fan yourself, you don't have to happy or support anything about the Heat. You could be indifferent, or flat out hate them for all I care. Like I said, you are anybody else are entitled to feel however.

I just flatly disagree with the premise and stigma some attempt to try to attach on the Heat. For example, some making the assertion that the Heat aren't 'natural' or 'organic' enough. And I like I said, I feel like in most cases, those are cases of emotion overriding logic. It's all special pleading really.Oh I'm with ya now. Good stuff.

I wonder about the people who use the terms "natural" and/or "organic". Sometimes it feels like a placeholder for "it just didn't feel like all other moves we've seen." I think everything surrounding that Miami offseason (including the moves themselves) set off a subconscious alarm for a lot of folks, where even if it was all legal and rightful, something felt askew.

The fear for many was, "Really? The NBA Championship was just decided by a few super friends getting together and teaming up? It's really just that easy?" I think hope and order would have been restored if it really didn't turn out to be that simple but for all intents and purposes, it was (i.e. the Heat were as good as advertised, even with the three stars not having a clue of how to play with one another in season 1).

Individual points can always be argued, as mentioned and established, but I'm not sure there's any fighting the fact that to many, the manner with which this team came together just did not feel the greatest. Some may call it cheap. Some lame. Some stupid. I'm not sure we can say anything for certain other than it did not feel agreeable to many.

[CoastalRyan]

I think its more of a result of their generation. They're from an instant gratification era where getting what you want without the long drawn out "old school way" of accomplishing things. No I'm not saying these guys didn't work hard.

However its not as if Lebron was on a lottery team, they made a trip to the finals and ownership showed no signs of backing off their wallets to put a team around this guy. Staying the course is the path that most prior franchise players took.

The most troubling aspect is not that he just bailed on the team that drafted him and got him to the finals but his very own home town. Most players dream of representing their hometown. It didn't seem to mean much to him and to be honest in a place like Cleveland who lacks a long standing winning environment it seems as that would have carried significant weight for anyone else.

But the 3 saw an easier path towards a collective goal.

Is it contrary to the history of how superstars win rings and build dynasties?

Yes.

But its par for the course in almost all other aspects of life.

Me personally I don't want a league where groups of players collude to join teams.

The Spurs are a horrible comparison. Everything about the Spurs has to do with building a team, an environment and organization around cultivation.

If Bron, Wade and Bosh has all been drafted by the Heat that comparison is fine. I have no problem with existing teammates that came up together making an effort to stay together.

[Rake2204]

I thinks is more of a result of their generation. They're from an instant gratification era where getting what you want without the long drawn out "old school way" of accomplishing things. No I'm not saying these guys didn't work hard.

However its not as if Lebron was on a lottery team, they made a trip to the finals and ownership showed no signs of backing off their wallets to put a team around this guy. Staying the course is the path that most prior franchise players took.

The most troubling aspect is not that he just bailed on the team that drafted him and got him to the finals but his very own home town. Most players dream of representing their hometown. It didn't seem to mean much to him and to be honest in a place like Cleveland who lacks a long standing winning environment it seems as that would have carried significant weight for anyone else.

But the 3 saw an easier path towards a collective goal.

Is it contrary to the history of how superstars win rings and build dynasties?

Yes.

But its par for the course in almost all other aspects of life.

Me personally I don't want a league where groups of players collude to join teams.

The Spurs are a horrible comparison. Everything about the Spurs has to do with building a team, an environment and organization around cultivation.

If Bron, Wade and Bosh has all been drafted by the Heat that comparison is fine. I have no problem with existing teammates that came up together making an effort to stay together.Well stated. You articulate a lot of the feelings I had.

I'm not sure if I view it as a generational thing per se, but I do think part of my issue was seeing three guys leading teams that were competing against each other year in and year out (I particularly enjoyed the James-Wade rivalry) and seeing 2/3rds of that group bouncing up and joining a random team far, far away. Everything went out the window except for the idea of those guys winning for themselves, regardless of where it was, who it was for, or how it happened. And again, I think the where, the who, and the how are all big factors to me in terms of what I like about basketball.

[niko]

Its funny. The Heat added two players, and its a huge deal.

What if the Bulls got him? Same thing. Adding two players. Boozer and James, and at the time there was a lot of talks between who was better out of Boozer or Bosh.
What if he went to the Knicks? Amare and Bron. Two players again.

I was surprised James came to the Heat. I had to text my friend 3 times from work confirming he was sure, just so I didn't get excited for no reason. And its funny, the same people complaining about how this team was formed, were the same people hoping he came onto their team when "the decision" was announced. I seriously couldn't stand Lebron on Cleveland, and I was still hoping he came to the Heat despite it due to how tremendously talented he is. I guess if he didn't come here, I'd still despise him, but I sure wouldn't have any problem with a team he joined, or how he joined. I'd just continue to hope he never got a championship... But its all different now.

Same deal with when Lakers got Gasol. People were losing their shit, but in the end, its sports. You're allowed to trade, you're allowed to sign wherever you want.

The Heat had Wade. Not complimentary players, the Heat had an existing star who won a title as a first option. Are people legitimately obtuse or if they don't mention these things does it make them feel it's not true?

The hate also came from the fact that he did it in the most douchey way possible for some reason. First Year Heat (and decision) Lebron was a douche who said stupid shit on a weekly basis and was terrified of the moment. I don't know what changed, if it was concious or if he just relaxed but watching him talk to the media now vs. then is a huge difference. He's like a different guy.

People hating on Lebron now though is silly, he's 180 in his behavior since that time. The only thing frustrating me about Lebron and only at times is the "unselfishness" when it's clear that if he doesn't take over, they'll lose. Watching him 2 feet from the hoop tossing out 30 ft and its not in the flow of the offense is maddening, especially when they lose. Also his fans, who want to rewrite history so his two titles are more impressive than any ever won.

Anyone who says I HATE LEBRON BECAUSE OF THE DECISION really needs a hobby.

[SCdac]

I thinks is more of a result of their generation. They're from an instant gratification era where getting what you want without the long drawn out "old school way" of accomplishing things. No I'm not saying these guys didn't work hard.

However its not as if Lebron was on a lottery team, they made a trip to the finals and ownership showed no signs of backing off their wallets to put a team around this guy. Staying the course is the path that most prior franchise players took.

The most troubling aspect is not that he just bailed on the team that drafted him and got him to the finals but his very own home town. Most players dream of representing their hometown. It didn't seem to mean much to him and to be honest in a place like Cleveland who lacks a long standing winning environment it seems as that would have carried significant weight for anyone else.

But the 3 saw an easier path towards a collective goal.

Is it contrary to the history of how superstars win rings and build dynasties?

Yes.

But its par for the course in almost all other aspects of life.

Me personally I don't want a league where groups of players collude to join teams.

The Spurs are a horrible comparison. Everything about the Spurs has to do with building a team, an environment and organization around cultivation.

If Bron, Wade and Bosh has all been drafted by the Heat that comparison is fine. I have no problem with existing teammates that came up together making an effort to stay together.

Bolded: Me neither. And it basically perpetuates itself. Chris Paul and Howard see what Lebron and Wade are doing and they think to themselves "this is the only way I can win", and so on and so on.... If not regulated, it can lead to some absurdly top-heavy teams and predictable Finals match ups every season.

So you have the best players in the league looking around at each other while they're still on their original team, and instead of saying "come here" they're saying "lets all meet there".

The new CBA is supposed to curb this kind of stuff, and it's not fully in effect yet (giving it another year or two), but how do you stop players from essentially colluding?

I agree its somewhat generational. Younger people are less willing to work for what they want. I can understand being a newly drafted rookie, ala Kobe or Magic or something, and being so full of yourself that you're unwilling to be drafted to a bad team, but deciding halfway into your career to take the easy way out and team up with a recent Finals MVP is different.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm for the Celtics and would dislike them regardless of how they happened. But i do see the whining over how they came together as baseless. Instead of letting team executives determine their fate they took charge of their careers. I would have had more appreciation for what James had accomplished if he did it as a cavalier but i still respect how hard he must work to be the player he has become.

[kobeef24]

San Antonio has been doing this with Parker and Duncan in their past contracts. Seems like the article below commends Duncan for being unselfish and allowing San Antonio to keep top 5 MVP candidate Parker as well as resign Ginobli and Danny Green.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/tim-duncan-cut-paycheck-half-san-antonio-spurs-161015938--nba.html


Dirk also came out and said he'd sacrifice money to make it easier for the Mavs to sign Dwight Howard. Are we all just going to pick on the Heat because their players are more talented and have achieved more success out players who take pay cuts?

These players are at the end of their careers. They aren't taking paycuts in their prime. I've got no problem with Wade taking a paycut. I know it's all legal, but it does feel a little like cheating to me. Either way they earned their championships and I've got no real problem with what they did.

[BlazersDozen]

I don't care at all. It's their lives, legacy & career. Anything I say isn't going to change what they did and nothing I'm going to say is going to change any decision they make in the future so why not just sit back and enjoy their dominance instead of complaining about every little thing since we will never see a team like this again?

[SCdac]

The only redeeming factor for the Heat, to me, is that they play elite defense. Which does not necessarily happen overnight or with little effort put in. I have defended them on that aspect, because it takes team congruency. Nobody is denying the Heat earned their chips and had to work, but the amount of coasting they are seemingly able to do is worrisome. At times, feels like they're not even trying or taking the moment seriously. They can win a championship playing at 80% of their potential, and that's scary from a parity perspective.

[PickernRoller]

Umm.......:rolleyes:

[gasolina]

Agree with all the previous posts. Basically the heat franchise only needed

a) the weather and the nightlife
b) Pat Riley

and they got 2 superstars, one all star, all in their primes, and the chance to win multiple championships. To me that's not fair to teams that build through drafting well, wise free agencies/trades, and player development.

We all enjoyed the ECF and the Finals, however I think part of the reason why is that the 1st and 2nd rounds of the East were horribly boring. The only series worth watching then was the Bulls/Nets one, which also featured teams with the most equal amount of talent on both sides.

How about instead of having a Heat - Bucks massacre we see the Cavs w/ Lebron vs. Raptors w/ Bosh or even the Heat w/ Wade.

[gasolina]

so why not just sit back and enjoy their dominance
That's the thing, instead of seeing Lebron vs. Wade battles, I'm just seeing how legitimate contenders like the Pacers and Spurs seem ill-equipped to contain the Heat.

[eriX]

That's the thing, instead of seeing Lebron vs. Wade battles, I'm just seeing how legitimate contenders like the Pacers and Spurs seem ill-equipped to contain the Heat.

so basically for your entertainment teams should not be overwhelmingly dominant because its unfair?

[BlazersDozen]

That's the thing, instead of seeing Lebron vs. Wade battles, I'm just seeing how legitimate contenders like the Pacers and Spurs seem ill-equipped to contain the Heat.

LeBron Vs. Wade would be terribly boring the past two seasons. Do you think Wade would be able to play as much as he has with his knees the past two years if he was the one carrying the Heat? Thanks to LeBron, Miami was able to drop his minutes two years ago and last year, his usage, to keep him effective a bit longer.

[All Net]

Haters will hate no matter what.

[arifgokcen]

Yes.

They basically colluded, and since then it's been a magnet for talent like Ray Allen, Battier, and such (the effects of them teaming up haven't ended).

It's not quite the first time in history it's happened, and I would say the same thing about any previous "super teams", but something about Bron, Wade, and Bosh teaming up seemed so fabricated, cheap, and desperate.

http://www.miamiheatwave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Jordan_Bird_Johnson.jpg
Even trolling has a limit.How can you compare 3 of the top 7 players to lebron,wade and especially bosh.

I understand the anger personally it doesnt make a difference to me but jordan,magic,bird vs lebron,wade,bosh.Come on

DONT TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Its an insult to jordan,magic,bird.Only lebron deserves to be mentioned in the same breath.Bosh isnt even top 50.Wade is top 20.Lebron has just entered top 10(or 11)

COME ON

[gasolina]

so basically for your entertainment teams should not be overwhelmingly dominant because its unfair?
If I had my way I'd like exciting games like in the ECF and games 6 & 7 of the finals all the time, I really don't see what's entertaining about powerhouse teams steamrolling opponents.

[SCdac]

so basically for your entertainment teams should not be overwhelmingly dominant because its unfair?

Well, just out of curiosity, at what point would the amount of talent the Heat acquires be Veto-worthy?

They haven't gotten there yet, but they're close IMO. If they signed a Paul Milsap or Andre Iguodala, who can beat that team?

What's enjoyable about a fake, video game type roster?

[nightprowler10]

If my team had formed like that, in that type of manner, I would find it incredibly hard to stomach being a fan of the team. I would probably have to go into hibernation to avoid the criticism that would come with it.

There's nothing wrong with politicians, but do we like them? No. Same thing with the Heat.
This reflects my opinion on the matter actually, except I'm not sure about the politicians comparison. Had LeBron and Bosh come to Chicago I'd be incredibly happy because it would be a ridiculous dynasty, but even if I posted on bball forums or in general I'd never take the "we da bess" or "haters gonna hate" attitude like so many Heat fans seem to. I'd honestly completely understand the hate and criticism and probably just avoid such topics since I know that's the price of having such a fabricated team, even though unlike Miami, Chicago already had most of the pieces through the draft.

[SCdac]

Even trolling has a limit.How can you compare 3 of the top 7 players to lebron,wade and especially bosh.

I understand the anger personally it doesnt make a difference to me but jordan,magic,bird vs lebron,wade,bosh.Come on

DONT TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Its an insult to jordan,magic,bird.Only lebron deserves to be mentioned in the same breath.Bosh isnt even top 50.Wade is top 20.Lebron has just entered top 10(or 11)

COME ON

It's the principle I'm talking about, man..... :facepalm

If you think that's a direct comparison, I don't know what to say....

[InfiniteBaskets]

These players are at the end of their careers. They aren't taking paycuts in their prime. I've got no problem with Wade taking a paycut. I know it's all legal, but it does feel a little like cheating to me. Either way they earned their championships and I've got no real problem with what they did.

Parker was an MVP candidate as recent as this past season. He could've gotten a max deal a few seasons back, but stayed on for a smaller amount of money. I'd say he's well in his prime similar to LeBron, still one of the fastest players in the league.

As a Heat fan, I would love it if Wade could take a pay cut after next season. But his ego probably wouldn't allow him to get paid a lot less than what LeBron and Bosh make. So maybe all three of those guys can take something like $10m each per year.

[gasolina]

LeBron Vs. Wade would be terribly boring the past two seasons. Do you think Wade would be able to play as much as he has with his knees the past two years if he was the one carrying the Heat? Thanks to LeBron, Miami was able to drop his minutes two years ago and last year, his usage, to keep him effective a bit longer.
I just used it as an example. But we'll never really know since they never faced each other in the playofs. THAT is my main issue.

Also on the other side, Lebron won't have that much firepower on his team too, a lot more teams could have a chance of competing. It's like we just waited for who the Heat will meet on the ECF.

[arifgokcen]

It's the principle I'm talking about, man..... :facepalm

If you think that's a direct comparison, I don't know what to say....
Wow are you stupid

What can you expect when you post a picture of both MJs and bird photo after this post



Yes.

They basically colluded, and since then it's been a magnet for talent like Ray Allen, Battier, and such (the effects of them teaming up haven't ended).

It's not quite the first time in history it's happened, and I would say the same thing about any previous "super teams", but something about Bron, Wade, and Bosh teaming up seemed so fabricated, cheap, and desperate.

[2LeTTeRS]

No I wouldn't, for 2 reasons that I feel "fans" are quick to ignore because it doesn't fit their agendas.

#1 Makes the product better, and
#2 Holds executives accountable who were unable to surround special players with other complimentary pieces

To expand on both issue I'll quote my response to an old discussion on a similar topic.


MY RESPONSE: Every year the NBA has always had only 6 or 7 true contenders. I think everyone will agree that the league is better now than it was 5-6 years back when:

- Kobe was playing with scrubs like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown in LA, and demanding to be traded or to have his teammates shipped out for better players
- KG was surrounded by losers in Minnesota,
- T Mac was wasting his prime with the Magic,
- AI had a one-man team in Philly,
- Vince Carter was in Toronto half-assing it because his team sucked

[SCdac]

No I wouldn't, for 2 reasons that I feel "fans" are quick to ignore because it doesn't fit their agendas.

#1 Makes the product better, and
#2 Holds executives accountable who were unable to surround special players with other complimentary pieces

To expand on both issue I'll quote my response to an old discussion on a similar topic.

Would you be in favor of reducing the amount of teams in the league?

[GatorKid117]

To the posters who despise how the Heat trio came about; what are your feelings on the 2003 Lakers?

Payton
Bryant
Malone
Shaq

Yes Malone and Payton were at the end of their careers but both of them were putting up 20/7 respectively the year before. Would you have felt their championship was disingenuous as well?

[lakeshow1]

To the posters who despise how the Heat trio came about; what are your feelings on the 2003 Lakers?

Payton
Bryant
Malone
Shaq

Yes Malone and Payton were at the end of their careers but both of them were putting up 20/7 respectively the year before. Would you have felt their championship was disingenuous as well?.

As a Lakers fan, I felt both happy and a little sheepish about this team. After the initial thrill of landing those guys (thinking we would win a chip), I never really embraced the team or the concept. It felt a little cheap, and I had spent years respecting but not liking Malone or Payton.

To answer your question, yes it would have felt a little disingenuous. The seams were coming off the team at that time. Shaq was coming to camp more and more out of shape and battling foot injuries by memory. Shaq and Kobe were at the height of their beef, and it felt like a last ditch effort to get one last ring with that unit.

It definitely didn't feel the same as the 2000-2002 team.

[gasolina]

To the posters who despise how the Heat trio came about; what are your feelings on the 2003 Lakers?

Payton
Bryant
Malone
Shaq

Yes Malone and Payton were at the end of their careers but both of them were putting up 20/7 respectively the year before. Would you have felt their championship was disingenuous as well?
Hated it. Thought they got served a nice helping of humble pie when the Pistons humiliated them.

[Rake2204]

so basically for your entertainment teams should not be overwhelmingly dominant because its unfair?I think I was just a little offset by how easy it was for a couple of players to decide to create an overly dominant team, not that a dominant team existed in the first place.

At the time, LeBron James was busy being incredible and leading his Cavs deep into the playoffs, Dwyane Wade won a ring and was trying to make something happen again, and Chris Bosh was dominating in the post-Carter era in Toronto with mixed team results. They'd all take turns beating on each other (with James' superior Cavs teams often winning out).

Then suddenly, it felt like they all threw up their hands and said, "That's it. I'm done with this competing and sometimes prevailing and sometimes not thing. Let's all pick a location and join forces so we're better than everyone all the time." I don't enjoy that in any part of life really - street courts, video games, youth league soccer; at some point it just seems to question the spirit of true competition.

[GatorKid117]

.

As a Lakers fan, I felt both happy and a little sheepish about this team. After the initial thrill of landing those guys (thinking we would win a chip), I never really embraced the team or the concept. It felt a little cheap, and I had spent years respecting but not liking Malone or Payton.

To answer your question, yes it would have felt a little disingenuous. The seams were coming off the team at that time. Shaq was coming to camp more and more out of shape and battling foot injuries by memory. Shaq and Kobe were at the height of their beef, and it felt like a last ditch effort to get one last ring with that unit.

It definitely didn't feel the same as the 2000-2002 team.

Understandable reaction. Seems to me there is not much difference between the two to where you can support one team and hate the other. Just seeing if people are consistent.

[InfiniteBaskets]

Then suddenly, it felt like they all threw up their hands and said, "That's it. I'm done with this competing and sometimes prevailing and sometimes not thing. Let's all pick a location and join forces so we're better than everyone all the time." I don't enjoy that in any part of life really - street courts, video games, youth league soccer; at some point it just seems to question the spirit of true competition.

It wasn't sudden. The Celtics were tired of being a bottom feeder of the East and brought together 3 franchise players on one team. Just after Wade and LeBron both made the finals by themselves, the Celtics showed them how much superior a team with 3 all-stars could be. Boston showed Wade and LeBron that, despite individually putting up greater numbers, they could never will their team to a playoff series victory.

Had Boston not formed and LeBron won a title or two in Cleveland between 07-10, you think there's still a decision?

[Crafty]

Because of what Miami did is illegal. Not like we live in a FA era.

[Rake2204]

It wasn't sudden. The Celtics were tired of being a bottom feeder of the East and brought together 3 franchise players on one team. Just after Wade and LeBron both made the finals by themselves, the Celtics showed them how much superior a team with 3 all-stars could be. Boston showed Wade and LeBron that, despite individually putting up greater numbers, they could never will their team to a playoff series victory.

Had Boston not formed and LeBron won a title or two in Cleveland between 07-10, you think there's still a decision?To be fair, my quoted portion wasn't meant to be a direct documentation. I wasn't really commenting on whether their decisions were collectively sudden nor do I really believe my quote of their thought process was verbatim.

I was more or less trying to convey how it felt as if there were these superstars out there trying to make things happen for their squads, going against each other every night and in some cases succeeding (Wade in '06) or appearing to be on the verge of succeeding (James' 66 and 61 win teams, the former coming very close to reaching the Finals for the second time). Then it felt as if they decided to just drop everything and attempt to forego the struggle.

To re-iterate, very talented teams have always existed and I acknowledge that. I've been okay with some and likely despised more. But I admit the Heat construction felt unique in comparison to most every other attempt made by teams in the past. Even with the Celtics scenario, which ended up being successful, there was still the caveat of, "Yeah, well, they acquired KG and Ray, but they're both in their 30's and they had to trade away their entire team to make it happen, and neither of them is declared the best player in our lifetime right now leaving his 60 win team to join a Finals MVP."

Again, that doesn't mean Miami broke any rules or LeBron did something he shouldn't be allowed to do. Nor does it mean those player on the Heat aren't great. The manner with which they were constructed just really did not appeal to me.

[2LeTTeRS]

Would you be in favor of reducing the amount of teams in the league?

No, why do you ask?

[BoutPractice]

It's a game, and games evolve spontaneously in response to events like the formation of the Big 3.

It's possible to imagine a league with 3, 4 competitive superteams AND teams like the Pacers, Bulls and Spurs that are competitive through defense and teamwork, that would have both incredible level of play at the top and enough uncertainty about the outcome to be worth watching.

In fact, the current league is close to that equilibrium. Dwight being on the right team to pose a threat to Miami would make it even closer to being optimal. (Which is why it'll be funny to watch people complain if it does happen.)

[Haymaker]

LeBron and Wade are both bonafide stars who proved they could take their teams to the finals, and win in Wade's case. I would've had no problem seeing Bosh joining Bron in Cleveland or Wade in Miami. It's the exaggerated act of creating a Big three, a superteam just to win that I'm not OK with since two of those players could carry a team on their backs. It takes away from the challenge. I appreaciate Dirk's sole championship even more than Miami's two. It's even more dramatic to see how he reached the cusp than seeing Miami steamroll the competition due to their concentration of talent.

[InfiniteBaskets]

I was more or less trying to convey how it felt as if there were these superstars out there trying to make things happen for their squads, going against each other every night and in some cases succeeding (Wade in '06) or appearing to be on the verge of succeeding (James' 66 and 61 win teams, the former coming very close to reaching the Finals for the second time). Then it felt as if they decided to just drop everything and attempt to forego the struggle.


I can see where you're coming from, but personally I don't think LeBron's decision itself was extremely shocking. I was shocked when he chose the Miami Heat, sure, but not that he wanted a change of scenery. I was not surprised he left after not letting Cleveland know well ahead of the time when every other team with cap space was trying to recruit him (ala Durant).

LeBron was afraid of being perceived as a failure due to not winning rings but constantly putting up big numbers. Just like it didn't surprise me that Dwight left Orlando and Carmelo left Denver, it didn't surprise me when LeBron left Cleveland. Blame it partly on the media, or partly on some of the precedence set by the Celtics, but we're in an era where if a superstar doesn't have a competitive team around them, they're more willing to go elsewhere.

[eriX]

Well, just out of curiosity, at what point would the amount of talent the Heat acquires be Veto-worthy?

They haven't gotten there yet, but they're close IMO. If they signed a Paul Milsap or Andre Iguodala, who can beat that team?

What's enjoyable about a fake, video game type roster?

but why are we punishing the strong? We live in a world where the strong survive and the weak gets eliminated. There is only 1 team crowned the champions every year and like someone else said theres maybe 6 or 7 real championship contending teams.

If you were really a competitive player you would do whatever it takes to win, Im not talking about taking actions with morals or pride but decisions people will hate you for but in the end it would gain you the most reward (for those who watch games of thrones this figure would be tywin). All these hollywood hero 'i wont do it because its against my morals and whatever else' bs doesnt apply in the real world, lets just make that clear. Their goals was clear and a plan was clear and they took action. Sure it might've so much better if you had done it by yourself after years of hard fought battles but thats from your point of view, lebron, wade and bosh are great friends and they have their point of views about winning together.

It may not be entertaining to watch an overwhelmingly powerful team and obviously some people will get tired to watching surefire success, since the league is still a business driven sport, they would eventually intervene since ratings will eventually go down with an expected result. But besides hating them for not making the league more exciting so to speak despite it makes all the haters more happy when they lose, what other reasons is there to hate them for?

[lakeshow1]

It's a game, and games evolve spontaneously in response to events like the formation of the Big 3.

It's possible to imagine a league with 3, 4 competitive superteams AND teams like the Pacers, Bulls and Spurs that are competitive through defense and teamwork, that would have both incredible level of play at the top and enough uncertainty about the outcome to be worth watching.


I hope we don't have a league like that. This was the NFL in the 1990s.

As a long time SF 49ers fan, I appreciate this current team more than any team I have rooted for. Built from the bottom-up, it's rewarding in a way that the 90s teams were not. When (and if) it finally wins, it will be my favorite championship team ever after this long wait.

[Dro]

To the posters who despise how the Heat trio came about; what are your feelings on the 2003 Lakers?

Payton
Bryant
Malone
Shaq

Yes Malone and Payton were at the end of their careers but both of them were putting up 20/7 respectively the year before. Would you have felt their championship was disingenuous as well?
Of course, hell it was damn near worse. And just like Miami, that team made it to the Finals in their first year, despite having absolutely NO chemistry because they stacked the deck. If fans of these teams can't understand why fans of other teams don't like this nonsense, then I don't know what to say. And Miami fans make me sick acting like they can't admit the sh*t. Look, the Heat won the games, fought off challenges in the Pacers and Spurs and won the title.

But lets not act like the Heat haven't been in the Finals 3 straight years and won 2 finals, despite putting together a team out of the blue. Please, lets act like this has EVER happened. I can't think of one occasion where 3 stars, gave up, plotted to come together, and in some cases, even deceiving their own teams and fans in the process. Like that Bulls fans said, its more the Heat fans that cause people to hate the team even more because they act like this NEVER happened and they act like people should NOT have a problem with it. As a Pacer fan, if they were on my team, yes I'd be happy because I know a ring is in the bag...And yes, when everyone is just waiting to see who Miami is playing in the Finals every year, yes that is BORING. No, it may not be boring for Heat fans but how do you guys not understand that would be boring to pretty much EVERYONE else who is NOT a frontrunner and does not root for the Yankees of the world. And I sure wouldn't be running around calling folks "haters" because I have no other way to defend what my team did. Id probably keep the boasting to a bare minimum. :confusedshrug:

[SCdac]

No, why do you ask?

Because some of the teams you mentioned to this day are still going nowhere, and probably will be for the foreseeable future... Assuming front office incompetence always exists (#2 in your post), wouldn't cutting the league's teams down help achieve a more entertaining league? Teams would be more talent heavy, like the Heat. Personally, I don't see anything inherently wrong with 1 man teams assuming their GM's are doing all they can conceivably do, and even in bad situations how much the star player is 'victimized' is truly debatable. The point I'm making is, what's best for entertainment might not be best for the integrity and parity of the league. I don't agree that the league is better now than it was 5-6 years ago. It's basically the Heat's championship to lose every season and I only see them getting stronger as they attract the Ray Allens of the league.

[2LeTTeRS]

LeBron and Wade are both bonafide stars who proved they could take their teams to the finals, and win in Wade's case. I would've had no problem seeing Bosh joining Bron in Cleveland or Wade in Miami. It's the exaggerated act of creating a Big three, a superteam just to win that I'm not OK with since two of those players could carry a team on their backs. It takes away from the challenge. I appreaciate Dirk's sole championship even more than Miami's two. It's even more dramatic to see how he reached the cusp than seeing Miami steamroll the competition due to their concentration of talent.

Steamrolled? I don't see how a person who has watched the Heat team the last 3 years can say they "steamrolled the league" when they lost in 2011 and were challenged mightily the last 2 years

[SCdac]

but why are we punishing the strong? We live in a world where the strong survive and the weak gets eliminated. There is only 1 team crowned the champions every year and like someone else said theres maybe 6 or 7 real championship contending teams.

If you were really a competitive player you would do whatever it takes to win, Im not talking about taking actions with morals or pride but decisions people will hate you for but in the end it would gain you the most reward (for those who watch games of thrones this figure would be tywin). All these hollywood hero 'i wont do it because its against my morals and whatever else' bs doesnt apply in the real world, lets just make that clear. Their goals was clear and a plan was clear and they took action. Sure it might've so much better if you had done it by yourself after years of hard fought battles but thats from your point of view, lebron, wade and bosh are great friends and they have their point of views about winning together.

It may not be entertaining to watch an overwhelmingly powerful team and obviously some people will get tired to watching surefire success, since the league is still a business driven sport, they would eventually intervene since ratings will eventually go down with an expected result. But besides hating them for not making the league more exciting so to speak despite it makes all the haters more happy when they lose, what other reasons is there to hate them for?

I just question the competitiveness of players when the allure is there. There's nothing competitive about joining an already stacked team, even though joining that team would get you the biggest reward (a ring).

As for the bolded, how would the league step in and when? What would it take? If the Heat signed Andre Iguodala in the offseason, would owners have a legitimate gripe?

Surely, there is a scale that can be tipped. I'm wondering aloud when that would happen, because, with the way they were built, the Heat are like 1 or 2 relatively big FA signings away from that IMO. And would it surprise anybody if they went over the cap?

[Rake2204]

If you were really a competitive player you would do whatever it takes to win, Im not talking about taking actions with morals or pride but decisions people will hate you for but in the end it would gain you the most reward.I think there's a couple of different forms of "competition" being thrown around here. I always felt the cliched "He'll do whatever it takes to win" type of competition had to do with on-court play i.e. one's willingness to push himself to the limit and sacrifice all he had for the benefit of the team.

I'm not sure a player leaving one team to join the best team possible (so as to make competition and victory as easy as possible) seems to completely coincide with the first definition of being competitive. That's more along the lines of, "Doing whatever it takes to win! Even if it means collecting your greatest opponents onto one team then vanquishing all the lesser talent that's left!" No, I definitely do not believe that's the original spirit of the word.

[MavsSuperFan]

The Heat had Wade. Not complimentary players, the Heat had an existing star who won a title as a first option. Are people legitimately obtuse or if they don't mention these things does it make them feel it's not true?

The hate also came from the fact that he did it in the most douchey way possible for some reason. First Year Heat (and decision) Lebron was a douche who said stupid shit on a weekly basis and was terrified of the moment. I don't know what changed, if it was concious or if he just relaxed but watching him talk to the media now vs. then is a huge difference. He's like a different guy.

People hating on Lebron now though is silly, he's 180 in his behavior since that time. The only thing frustrating me about Lebron and only at times is the "unselfishness" when it's clear that if he doesn't take over, they'll lose. Watching him 2 feet from the hoop tossing out 30 ft and its not in the flow of the offense is maddening, especially when they lose. Also his fans, who want to rewrite history so his two titles are more impressive than any ever won.

Anyone who says I HATE LEBRON BECAUSE OF THE DECISION really needs a hobby.

i dont hate him, just would respect him more, if he won without ring chasing.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The problem I have with this pic is Bosh is nothing compared to any of those three. If anything Jordan joining the mid 90's Sonics would be more more accurate. I might be selling Kemp short comparing him to Bosh. Although Wade might be better than Payton. Pat taking Wade over Kamen turned out to be the difference between 3 championships. If you count the chain reactions.
In the 90's? It would be more like this ... Barkley's Sixers (Wade's Heat) failing to beat the eastern conference powerhouse Pistons (Celtics) and MJ's Bulls (LeBron's Cavs) not being able to beat the Pistons (Celtics) either ... so in free agency MJ goes to join his best friend's club, thanks to some convincing.

MJ goes to the Sixers, forms a MJ / Barkley duo and the two best players in the conference are on the same team, just like LeBron and Wade. Then Danny Manning (Chris Bosh) comes to round out the trio. Not a superstar, but a very good player, all star caliber talent.


I think I was just a little offset by how easy it was for a couple of players to decide to create an overly dominant team, not that a dominant team existed in the first place.

At the time, LeBron James was busy being incredible and leading his Cavs deep into the playoffs, Dwyane Wade won a ring and was trying to make something happen again, and Chris Bosh was dominating in the post-Carter era in Toronto with mixed team results. They'd all take turns beating on each other (with James' superior Cavs teams often winning out).

Then suddenly, it felt like they all threw up their hands and said, "That's it. I'm done with this competing and sometimes prevailing and sometimes not thing. Let's all pick a location and join forces so we're better than everyone all the time." I don't enjoy that in any part of life really - street courts, video games, youth league soccer; at some point it just seems to question the spirit of true competition.
Bingo

[Knoe Itawl]

It would be one thing if a year after coming into the league, Lebron said "f it, I'm off to join Wade and Bosh" (if he could've done so at the time). Or if he tried to force a trade before he even played a game for Cleveland. However, he gave Cleveland 7 years of blood, sweat and tears and the best the organization gave him was Mo Williams. MO WILLIAMS. People can go on and on about how that team was great defensively, blah blah blah but no one can point to a championshp team with a MO WILLIMAS quality player as it's second best player. Further, there was no indication that Cleveland was going to improve the roster to true championship calibre anytime soon.

So why shouldn't Lebron make his own luck, since he didn't have it in the ways Bird, Magic, Jordan (when he finally got a team around him 7 years in), Kobe (prob the luckiest player of all time), etc.

He was a free agent, and had the right to go anywhere he wanted. Anybody bitching about it is just illogically hating, and refused to consider not only the context for Lebron, but these other players like Bird and Magic who supposedly would've done no such thing (cause they didn't need to). It's also funny that despite this so called stacked team Lebron has, Bosh and Wade have been inconsistant/injured for key stretches during these two championships. Only an idiot would think Bosh and Wade were some dominant force alongside Bron because they obviously weren't.

[MavsSuperFan]

It would be one thing if a year after coming into the league, Lebron said "f it, I'm off to join Wade and Bosh" (if he could've done so at the time). Or if he tried to force a trade before he even played a game for Cleveland. However, he gave Cleveland 7 years of blood, sweat and tears and the best the organization gave him was Mo Williams. MO WILLIAMS. People can go on and on about how that team was great defensively, blah blah blah but no one can point to a championshp team with a MO WILLIMAS quality player as it's second best player. Further, there was no indication that Cleveland was going to improve the roster to true championship calibre anytime soon.

So why shouldn't Lebron make his own luck, since he didn't have it in the ways Bird, Magic, Jordan (when he finally got a team around him 7 years in), Kobe (prob the luckiest player of all time), etc.

He was a free agent, and had the right to go anywhere he wanted. Anybody bitching about it is just illogically hating, and refused to consider not only the context for Lebron, but these other players like Bird and Magic who supposedly would've done no such thing (cause they didn't need to). It's also funny that despite this so called stacked team Lebron has, Bosh and Wade have been inconsistant/injured for key stretches during these two championships. Only an idiot would think Bosh and Wade were some dominant force alongside Bron because they obviously weren't.
No is disputing that Lebron should have left Cleveland, at least I am not.

I think Lebron wanted to make winning titles easy. His plan didnt fully work out as he didnt realize how badly Bosh's game would mesh with the heat and that wade had busted up knees, but he wanted the path to a title to be as easy as possible. His goal was to remove the competition from the league and get on a team that could win titles easily so that he could rack up titles. I dont think MJ would have done this.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think Lebron wanted to make winning titles easy. His plan didnt fully work out as he didnt realize how badly Bosh's game would mesh with the heat and that wade had busted up knees, but he wanted the path to a title to be as easy as possible. His goal was to remove the competition from the league and get on a team that could win titles easily so that he could rack up titles. I dont think MJ would have done this.
Correct, the value of the legend is in the struggle to the top, not the quick route they get there. LeBron could have went elsewhere and afforded him a team to compete for rings (with him playing to his potential) and it wouldn't have been as seen like stacking the deck competitively to take the easiest route possible to multiple championships. It's been a struggle though because his game and Wade's is redundant, Wade's been injured, Bosh has at times been non existent.

[FLDFSU]

Its funny. The Heat added two players, and its a huge deal.

What if the Bulls got him? Same thing. Adding two players. Boozer and James, and at the time there was a lot of talks between who was better out of Boozer or Bosh.
What if he went to the Knicks? Amare and Bron. Two players again.

I was surprised James came to the Heat. I had to text my friend 3 times from work confirming he was sure, just so I didn't get excited for no reason. And its funny, the same people complaining about how this team was formed, were the same people hoping he came onto their team when "the decision" was announced. I seriously couldn't stand Lebron on Cleveland, and I was still hoping he came to the Heat despite it due to how tremendously talented he is. I guess if he didn't come here, I'd still despise him, but I sure wouldn't have any problem with a team he joined, or how he joined. I'd just continue to hope he never got a championship... But its all different now.

Same deal with when Lakers got Gasol. People were losing their shit, but in the end, its sports. You're allowed to trade, you're allowed to sign wherever you want.

:applause: you gotta love bulls fans. Prior to the announcement they eere wetting the bed because they thought they got james and bosh. And were going to keep rose and if need be trade noah. Not one of them said anything about competition at that time. Just about how much they were going to rule the nba again. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[Rondo]

I don't care how they formed. I dislike them because they're extremely arrogant and flop like f*ck.

[mlh1981]

One aspect of all this that bothers me is, people saying "well can you BLAME LeBron for leaving Cleveland? I'd rather live in Miami, too." and then all the chatter about "upward mobility, etc. Well, yeah, Id rather live in Miami, too, but that's not the point. Places like Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc have a responsibility to try and put forth good teams, but I hate this notion that these type of places serve as a "training ground" for players, but when they bloom.....off to the bigger markets they go. Durant/OKC seems to be an exception, but you need to be able to at least sell "hope" in all markets. Without that, or even the illusion of hope, why would someone in Detroit bother going to games.

[Bobcat4Ever]

No, you hate Miami because they're not your team. If lebron and wade joined your team you would've give two shits and you'd be rooting for em just like us.

Spoken like a true d*ckrider.

[Flash31]

One aspect of all this that bothers me is, people saying "well can you BLAME LeBron for leaving Cleveland? I'd rather live in Miami, too." and then all the chatter about "upward mobility, etc. Well, yeah, Id rather live in Miami, too, but that's not the point. Places like Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc have a responsibility to try and put forth good teams, but I hate this notion that these type of places serve as a "training ground" for players, but when they bloom.....off to the bigger markets they go. Durant/OKC seems to be an exception, but you need to be able to at least sell "hope" in all markets. Without that, or even the illusion of hope, why would someone in Detroit bother going to games.


One naturally,they formed their team in Free Agency
whats more natural than that,
they didnt force their way out
they didnt demand lakers or ill go to
italy or lakers and kareem or ill stay in college
or trade me to the bulls or get me help
or Trade to the Knicks and nowhere else


They were FREE AGENTS
its like to some of you the 60s rules of FA
yall would love where you cant leave,tge owner
basically owns your basketball free will and where you play


and two most small markets cant keep players bc their fo
sucks,
Look at ATL overpaying players,Cle the besr player next to LeBron
was freakin mo williams,KG in Minnesota,
the best player next to Bosh was Andrea Bargnani


OKC trade Harden for money,The Grizz traded OJ Mayo
and Rudy Gay for money and had no o options or reliable scoring threats from prrimeter and they lost

even hollins said theyre trying to live on champagne through a beer budget

Come on
you load a player up with garbage for years and hes bound to leave for better opportunities,more competent fo

[FLDFSU]

Nobody had a problem with the concept of a big three when Boston systematically ganged up on the Eastern Conference three best players in route to another NBA finals appearance in 2010.

Pierce, Allen, and Garrett got to play 3 on 1 in the first round against Wade, then Lebron, then Howard all while having Doc and Rondo on the roster as well.

What should of happened was Wade, Lebron, and Howard should of joined up and then Boston could finally get some competition.

Boston started this. Lebron, Wade, and to a lesser extent Bosh was not going to sit back and watch Boston team up and run the rest of the conference off the floor in the playoffs. The only reason why Boston did not win 5 straight conference finals was because of KG injury one year...and the formation of Miami's big three.

[n00bie]

If this team was built like Oklahoma, people would respect them.

Right now, only one word describes this team. "Cheaters"

[HoopsFanNumero1]

If this team was built like Oklahoma, people would respect them.

Right now, only one word describes this team. "Cheaters"

I'd say "winners" and "champions" is appropriate as well.

[n00bie]

Nobody had a problem with the concept of a big three when Boston systematically ganged up on the Eastern Conference three best players in route to another NBA finals appearance in 2010.

Pierce, Allen, and Garrett got to play 3 on 1 in the first round against Wade, then Lebron, then Howard all while having Doc and Rondo on the roster as well.

What should of happened was Wade, Lebron, and Howard should of joined up and then Boston could finally get some competition.

Boston started this. Lebron, Wade, and to a lesser extent Bosh was not going to sit back and watch Boston team up and run the rest of the conference off the floor in the playoffs. The only reason why Boston did not win 5 straight conference finals was because of KG injury one year...and the formation of Miami's big three.

Actually. A lot of people hated Boston for doing the same thing. Except the Heat took this to a whole nother level.

I don't think this is going to stop. There's just going to be another team that will form to contend against the Heat. The league is going down the drain imo.

[n00bie]

I'd say "winners" and "champions" is appropriate as well.

I guess if you cheat on a test & get an A.. you'd call yourself winner. :lol

[HoopsFanNumero1]

I guess if you cheat on a test & get an A.. you'd be a winner as well. :lol

:lol Hey, they've had plenty of struggles in the past three seasons. In 2012, they were down 3-2 to the Celtics and even this year, they were 5 seconds away from losing another championship. You can't tell me they've just steamrolled the competition.

[n00bie]

:lol Hey, they've had plenty of struggles in the past three seasons. In 2012, they were down 3-2 to the Celtics and even this year, they were 5 seconds away from losing another championship. You can't tell me they've just steamrolled the competition.

That's what makes it sad. They cheated and BARELY won this year.

[FLDFSU]

Actually. A lot of people hated Boston for doing the same thing. Except the Heat took this to a whole nother level.

I don't think this is going to stop. There's just going to be another team that will form to contend against the Heat. The league is going down the drain imo.


Well, we can all thank Boston for starting it. James, Wade, and Bosh was simply responding to Boston.

[Solefade]

It's arguable that Wade wasn't even a top 10 player in the league when they won their championships in 2012 and 2013. And Bosh? He was barely top 25.

[ILLsmak]

Insecurity? The truth is the truth. I do not hate nor lack respect for my team and I'm 100% certain op would have no ill-feelings towards his fav team either. Bottom line is nothing they did was wrong. All done within the rules of the game. I was a fan of Melo and also rooted for ny when they got together.

Dunno, bro... if every good player in the NBA joined your team, which was a team that had struggled to be good, would you be happy or would you feel somehow cheated?

I personally don't believe that winning is everything even as a fan. Or what about your most hated player joining your team? A lot of Miami fans had to hate Bron, I've seen them post here backwhen.

So yeah... I dunno. It's cool that they are winning, but it definitely doesn't seem as fun.

-Smak

[n00bie]

It's arguable that Wade wasn't even a top 10 player in the league when they won their championships in 2012 and 2013. And Bosh? He was barely top 25.

Only reason you say that is because they all joined together. Their stats went down since they got together... which is what happens when 3 stars get together.

If they were on their own teams? They'd each be top 10 in scoring.

[DaSeba5]

I guess if you cheat on a test & get an A.. you'd call yourself winner. :lol

How did they cheat? How does somebody buy a championship in a salary cap league?

[Nevaeh]

I guess if you cheat on a test & get an A.. you'd call yourself winner. :lol

It would only be "cheating" for Miami if they didn't have to play any games at all, and were just gifted the title of "Champions" regardless of what 2 teams had made the finals. They still had to compete, still had to fail, still had to battle injuries, and still found themselves in 7 game series battling all 7 games during their playoff runs.

Add in the fact that Lebron was still responsible for leading his team in multiple statistical categories just like he did in Cleveland in order for the Heat to win, and it's easy to see that "easy" was definitely not what we saw from their playoff runs if you were paying attention.

OKC, the Pacers and the Spurs especially, all dropped the ball when they actually had multiple chances to win, had they not been making bird brain mistakes during their respective series.

[FLDFSU]

It would only be "cheating" for Miami if they didn't have to play any games at all, and were just gifted the title of "Champions" regardless of what 2 teams had made the finals. They still had to compete, still had to fail, still had to battle injuries, and still found themselves in 7 game series battling all 7 games during their playoff runs.

Add in the fact that Lebron was still responsible for leading his team in multiple statistical categories just like he did in Cleveland in order for the Heat to win, and it's easy to see that "easy" was definitely not what we saw from their playoff runs if you were paying attention.

OKC, the Pacers and the Spurs especially, all dropped the ball when they actually had multiple chances to win, had they not been making bird brain mistakes during their respective series.

Exactly. They acting like Miami gets to play with two balls or 6 players at a time.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

That's what makes it sad. They cheated and BARELY won this year.

No...

It means there are teams that can give them plenty of competition.

[DaSeba5]

No...

It means there are teams that can give them plenty of competition.

Adversity is part of sports. Every team experiences injuries, heartbreak, and strong competition. Nobody wins 70+ games and then beats everybody in 4. It don't work that way in sports. Nothing ever comes easy.

Just adding on to your post. Not you directly.

[sixerfan82]

Nobody had a problem with the concept of a big three when Boston systematically ganged up on the Eastern Conference three best players in route to another NBA finals appearance in 2010.

Pierce, Allen, and Garrett got to play 3 on 1 in the first round against Wade, then Lebron, then Howard all while having Doc and Rondo on the roster as well.

What should of happened was Wade, Lebron, and Howard should of joined up and then Boston could finally get some competition.

Boston started this. Lebron, Wade, and to a lesser extent Bosh was not going to sit back and watch Boston team up and run the rest of the conference off the floor in the playoffs. The only reason why Boston did not win 5 straight conference finals was because of KG injury one year...and the formation of Miami's big three.

lets be honest here, kg and allen paid their dues. plus they didnt collude or have a frickin doochebag party to say "hi"

[Horde of Temujin]

I just cannot stand Dwyane Wade. Ive never disliked a sports figure more than that douchebag.

However, I like Lebron, and his success is only relegating Whistle to sidekick status.

I am just glad that Miami won this series without any officiating controversy. I was rooting for San Antonio but I am happy for Lebron.

[jrong]

I just cannot stand Dwyane Wade. Ive never disliked a sports figure more than that douchebag.

Did he raise too much money for charities that you don't like?

[greymatter]

What's natural?

Playing your entire career with the same team and hoping your GM drafts well? Getting lucky enough to find a team whose GM manages to trade pennies for dollars?

The question is stupid. Placing the entire process in the hands of GMs to form a great team is in absolutely no way more "respectable" than unrestricted FAs colluding to do it themselves. The goal is to win. Whether the GM plays the major role in bringing in the talent or the FAs themselves makes no difference (to anyone who isn't a retard).

When players try to force trades to teams of their destination by threatening their current teams with getting nothing in return (Melo/Howard) is when the criticism is very justified.

[Rake2204]

What's natural?

Playing your entire career with the same team and hoping your GM drafts well? Getting lucky enough to find a team whose GM manages to trade pennies for dollars?

The question is stupid. Placing the entire process in the hands of GMs to form a great team is in absolutely no way more "respectable" than unrestricted FAs colluding to do it themselves. The goal is to win. Whether the GM plays the major role in bringing in the talent or the FAs themselves makes no difference (to anyone who isn't a retard).

When players try to force trades to teams of their destination by threatening their current teams with getting nothing in return (Melo/Howard) is when the criticism is very justified.It may be splitting hairs, but I think the argument may be that free agency is also "normal" or "natural" in virtually all cases. However, I think some believe a line was crossed with the manner with which three stars all opted to essentially create a new super team on their own as a means of limiting or altogether eliminating viable competition from the rest of the league.

Again, to verify once more, what these fellows did was all legal and well within their right. But I don't think it's unreasonable for some fans to object. Everyone likely has a limit. Some of us may not enjoy watching one of the ten best players of all-time leave his 60 win team to join up with a Finals MVP in South Beach with another top All-Star to boot. Maybe others wouldn't object until the entire Dream Team decided to meet up and create a dynasty in Brooklyn. We all have different visions of what we wish to see (and not see).

[JellyBean]

I think one of the reasons I don't really like the Heat is because the way they formed. They all took less money and teamed up so that winning a championship would be easier. There is something cheap about that to me. Like putting in cheat codes.

Other super teams in the past didnt have their best players decide to collude and team up. MJ didnt call magic and bird to team up so that he could win easily.

I have zero problem with the way the Heat was formed to create a powerhouse team. First off, when they formed three years ago, they lost in the Finals and folks were talking trash about them. So if they never would have won anything, folks would not be saying anything about them other than how "much they suck because they can't win a title." Now that they won, it is an issue.

Secondly, true Jordan didn't call up Magic and Bird to team up. He just waited for Father Time to come along. It was just a matter of time.

Third. I remember when Moses Malone joined forces with Dr. J back in the day. This not only shifted the balance of power in the Eastern Conference but also the league. The Celtics were talking trash, Bird, Mchale, Parish, ML Carr..just to name a few. When they saw that Moses was coming to the Sixers, all the trash talking stopped

So I have zero problem with the way the Heat joined forces to win titles on the cheap. They are still competitive. Playing as a team. And winning.

[FLDFSU]

It may be splitting hairs, but I think the argument may be that free agency is also "normal" or "natural" in virtually all cases. However, I think some believe a line was crossed with the manner with which three stars all opted to essentially create a new super team on their own as a means of limiting or altogether eliminating viable competition from the rest of the league.

Again, to verify once more, what these fellows did was all legal and well within their right. But I don't think it's unreasonable for some fans to object. Everyone likely has a limit. Some of us may not enjoy watching one of the ten best players of all-time leave his 60 win team to join up with a Finals MVP in South Beach with another top All-Star to boot. Maybe others wouldn't object until the entire Dream Team decided to meet up and create a dynasty in Brooklyn. We all have different visions of what we wish to see (and not see).


False. Boston decided to eliminate all the competition in the East by the formation of their big three first.

If no Boston "collusion" no Heat "collusion." Can't blame Wade, James, and Bosh for not sitting back and letting Boston play at least 3 on 1 in route to Conference championships.

[DMV2]

Its funny. The Heat added two players, and its a huge deal.

What if the Bulls got him? Same thing. Adding two players. Boozer and James, and at the time there was a lot of talks between who was better out of Boozer or Bosh.
What if he went to the Knicks? Amare and Bron. Two players again.

It was just adding two new players, it was adding the best player in the game to play along with a Top 3 player in Wade. You have a two-time MVP winner and a former Finals MVP joining forces in their prime.

And let's not forget how media crazy it was during July 10, 2010 week with LeBron going to NYC, LA, Chicago, etc to "explore his free agency options." You had athletes and coaches from other sports talking about it. Then the Introduction Celebration, and the "not 1, not 2, not 3..."

LeBron and Wade aren't innocent in all of this, they've brought a lot of this hate. LeBron has even admit in embracing that role in 2011 season.

There were a lot of good reasons to hate on them.

Anyway, I think majority of fans don't even care about the subject of how they join forces anymore. Most of us just want good basketball and the Big 3 have provided that.

[FLDFSU]

It was just adding two new players, it was adding the best player in the game to play along with a Top 3 player in Wade. You have a two-time MVP winner and a former Finals MVP joining forces in their prime.

And let's not forget how media crazy it was during July 10, 2010 week with LeBron going to NYC, LA, Chicago, etc to "explore his free agency options." You had athletes and coaches from other sports talking about it. Then the Introduction Celebration, and the "not 1, not 2, not 3..."

LeBron and Wade aren't innocent in all of this, they've brought a lot of this hate. LeBron has even admit in embracing that role in 2011 season.

There were a lot of good reasons to hate on them.

Anyway, I think majority of fans don't even care about the subject of how they join forces anymore. Most of us just want good basketball and the Big 3 have provided that.

1. Tell Boston not to join 3 HOF along with Rondo and Doc, and then maybe Lebron and Wade and Bosh have no reason to team up.

2. Lebron never went anywhere but downtown Cleveland. Teams flew in to meet with him. Not the other way around.

3. The Miami Heat always have celebration...more like pep rallies with the signing of big free agents. Shaq guaranteed a championship prior to ever playing one single minute in Miami. Its Miami, it is what we do.

[DMV2]

1. Tell Boston not to join 3 HOF along with Rondo and Doc, and then maybe Lebron and Wade and Bosh have no reason to team up.

2. Lebron never went anywhere but downtown Cleveland. Teams flew in to meet with him. Not the other way around.

3. The Miami Heat always have celebration...more like pep rallies with the signing of big free agents. Shaq guaranteed a championship prior to ever playing one single minute in Miami. Its Miami, it is what we do.
1. Pierce was never even a Top 5 player in the league. Neither was Ray Allen. Garnett was the only former MVP winner out of the bunch. And let's not forget that all of them were between ages 30-32, no longer in their primes. By their third season, it showed it when they struggled in the 2010 season but their will and never quit attitude got them into the Finals.

2. He still toyed with those teams by having them thinking they could have signed him.

3. One player's guarantee is the same as an entire team celebrating as if they already won. Do you not remember the "not 1, not 2, not 3" or the "it's gon' be easy." They were assholes no matter how you try to deny that.

[Rake2204]

False. Boston decided to eliminate all the competition in the East by the formation of their big three first.

If no Boston "collusion" no Heat "collusion." Can't blame Wade, James, and Bosh for not sitting back and letting Boston play at least 3 on 1 in route to Conference championships.Again, maybe I'm just a stickler for details, but the best player we've seen since Jordan leaving a 60 win team to attempt to make it even easier by joining a Finals MVP and another star hit me differently than Boston collecting two all-stars over age 30.

A lot of this thread is more about how folks feel about things, not so much "They broke rules". And when Boston came together, I don't remember being pumped about it, but I also don't remember having the same feeling as when Miami's squad came together. Maybe it's because usually these super attempts have flaws that still keeps things competitive. In Boston's case, they were all close to be passing their primes (if some hadn't already) and even if they succeeded initially, they were going to be close hitting the "old" portion of their careers.

In contrast, the Miami moves sort of felt like, "Welp, that's not even going to be fair. Literally, fairness is going to be tough to come by." And in truth, a discombobulated Heat team with each player deferring to one another still came this close to winning it all in '11 then won easily in '12 and emerged victorious in '13 even while again being plagued by injuries and mediocre play (relative to their peak). Instead of needing to hit on all cylinders, like most champions do, Miami seems as if they can win at half speed.

Also, again from a personal level, I admit I really liked watching LeBron James play in Cleveland. And contrary to what so many like to say all the time, I don't believe his team was terrible and I do believe he would have eventually won a championship - if not multiple rings. I thought it was the ultimate platform for one of the best players I've ever seen. He was good enough to make a champion, in my opinion. I thought he maximized the skills of anyone around him and he turned any team into a winner. It was easy for me to root for him because it felt like he was going to be the guy who was going to win with what he was provided, beasting the entire way, taking out the big names like LA and Boston in the process.

As such, to see him forgo that platform and instead join a super team, as a fan, it was the complete opposite of what I wanted to see. To repeat a cliche, I wanted to see James lead his home state Cavs to a goal that only he could lead them to, plowing through the likes of Bosh and Wade along the way. I didn't want to see him team up with those two in South Beach and hop and skip their way to multiple rings.

[FLDFSU]

1. Pierce was never even a Top 5 player in the league. Neither was Ray Allen. Garnett was the only former MVP winner out of the bunch. And let's not forget that all of them were between ages 30-32, no longer in their primes. By their third season, it showed it when they struggled in the 2010 season but their will and never quit attitude got them into the Finals.

2. He still toyed with those teams by having them thinking they could have signed him.

3. One player's guarantee is the same as an entire team celebrating as if they already won. Do you not remember the "not 1, not 2, not 3" or the "it's gon' be easy." They were assholes no matter how you try to deny that.

1. Allen, KG, Pierce, Rondo, and Doc Rivers vs. Wade in the first round is a mismatch in favor of Boston...

Same with James in the Second

Same with Howard in the Third.

You meet fire with fire. If Boston wants to play that game of 3 on 1...well if I am Wade, Bosh, and James I am not going to bring a sword to a gun fight.

2. That Boston team, if not for KG injury and the formation of the big three in Miami would have gone to 5 straight finals.

Yet somehow I am supposed to believe that is fair.

3. lol at Lebron toying with anyone. If he would have signed with Chicago you would be saying that Lebron "knew since his birth that he was going to Chicago. Why is playing games with Miami like that."

4. Again. SHAQ made guarantees of Championships at his pep rally. Lebron did not.

We have gone over countless times how a. Those quotes are taken out of context, and b. IT WAS A HEAT PEP RALLY FOR HEAT FANS.

The celebration pep rally was not for mass media consumption much like a FSU pep rally prior to playing UF is not for non-FSU fans.

c. Get over it.

[HurricaneKid]

One player's guarantee is the same as an entire team celebrating as if they already won. Do you not remember the "not 1, not 2, not 3" or the "it's gon' be easy." They were assholes no matter how you try to deny that.

I find these points laughable. It was a pep rally. Have you ever been to a pep rally?

He didn't say "Its gon' be easy" to win. He said "Its gon' be easy" to play with DWade. The fact that people keep bringing that up out of context shows their true motivation.

[sic]

how do teams get formed naturally,

Are they all from the same family???

[Bigsmoke]

Wade had one year left in his prime when they joined forces :confusedshrug:


Wade and Bosh are basically a Rocket's verson of Clyde Drexler and Brad Daugherty instread of...




http://www.miamiheatwave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Jordan_Bird_Johnson.jpg

[Bigsmoke]

I'm for the Celtics and would dislike them regardless of how they happened. But i do see the whining over how they came together as baseless. Instead of letting team executives determine their fate they took charge of their careers. I would have had more appreciation for what James had accomplished if he did it as a cavalier but i still respect how hard he must work to be the player he has become.

the Celtics basically did the same shit in 07 when u think about it.

The Celtics basically traded a washed up Wally and a Jeff Green that ended up coming back to the Celtics for Ray Allen and they traded away Al Jefferson and a bunch of garbage in exchange of Kevin Garnett.

[dh144498]

built legacy vs bought dynasty. The first seems much more respectable.

[Bigsmoke]

Only reason you say that is because they all joined together. Their stats went down since they got together... which is what happens when 3 stars get together.

If they were on their own teams? They'd each be top 10 in scoring.

The Heat needed Bosh' rebounding if anything.

Bosh just played like shit in the playoffs. It had nothing to do with him sharing the ball more

[BBallZen83]

First of all, Lebron gave Cavs management the better part of a decade to figure things out. A player that good deserves better. So I see leaving Cleveland as a necessity, not an evil.

Secondly, forming a "super team" with wade and bosh. Bosh was never an super star in the first place, he was always a great role player trying to be the man in a lesser market. And lets face it, all they did was what boston did but they did it better! Lakers had a super team earlier too in 03. Hell, Lakers have always had the cards stacked in their favor because they are just a power house franchise.

Thirdly, I think every thing has evened out. Bosh has shown he is more of a role player than a part of some "big three". Wade is on the decline, and could never single handedly lead a team deep into the playoffs again. So the "big three" hasn't really been as BIG as people want to make it out to be.

[Rake2204]

First of all, Lebron gave Cavs management the better part of a decade to figure things out. A player that good deserves better. So I see leaving Cleveland as a necessity, not an evil.

Secondly, forming a "super team" with wade and bosh. Bosh was never an super star in the first place, he was always a great role player trying to be the man in a lesser market. And lets face it, all they did was what boston did but they did it better! Lakers had a super team earlier too in 03. Hell, Lakers have always had the cards stacked in their favor because they are just a power house franchise.

Thirdly, I think every thing has evened out. Bosh has shown he is more of a role player than a part of some "big three". Wade is on the decline, and could never single handedly lead a team deep into the playoffs again. So the "big three" hasn't really been as BIG as people want to make it out to be.None of this really makes or breaks my feelings on the way the team was constructed and by whom, but just for the sake of whatever, 24 points and 11 rebounds on 52% shooting isn't too shabby for a random role player in a lesser market. I wouldn't mind if Jonas Jerebko started putting up numbers like that here.

I tend to take the opposite approach to matters. For me it's like, how top heavy with excellent talent does a team need to be in order for an efficient 20+ points and 10+ rebounds guy to more or less settle into a role?

Those semantics aside, it was still just a who and how type of thing for me. It's not really something I've been able to successfully compare 1:1 to any other situation I've witnessed. I thought it was stupid when Steve Francis refused to play for Vancouver. I thought it was dumb when Karl Malone and Gary Payton tried to piggy back toward a stacked ring. I even thought it was ridiculous when my Red Wings just began buying every possible star in sight.

But for whatever reason, maybe because I so enjoyed LeBron's Cleveland days, the Miami thing just has never sat well with me. Felt like a cop out, felt like a man happily trying to forgo competition, it felt like a lot of things. I know my opinion is obviously just that - an opinion, but it is what it is. I'd have enjoyed a LeBron James championship had it occurred under a different set of circumstances.

[2LeTTeRS]

I just question the competitiveness of players when the allure is there. There's nothing competitive about joining an already stacked team, even though joining that team would get you the biggest reward (a ring).

As for the bolded, how would the league step in and when? What would it take? If the Heat signed Andre Iguodala in the offseason, would owners have a legitimate gripe?

Surely, there is a scale that can be tipped. I'm wondering aloud when that would happen, because, with the way they were built, the Heat are like 1 or 2 relatively big FA signings away from that IMO. And would it surprise anybody if they went over the cap?


Posts like this would make you think the goal is not to win a championship, but to look the most heroic, winning be damned. I couldn't see it more differently.

If anything I question the competitiveness of a star who will stay on a team that he knows has no chance of winning just to appear "loyal."


Nobody had a problem with the concept of a big three when Boston systematically ganged up on the Eastern Conference three best players in route to another NBA finals appearance in 2010.

Pierce, Allen, and Garrett got to play 3 on 1 in the first round against Wade, then Lebron, then Howard all while having Doc and Rondo on the roster as well.

What should of happened was Wade, Lebron, and Howard should of joined up and then Boston could finally get some competition.

Boston started this. Lebron, Wade, and to a lesser extent Bosh was not going to sit back and watch Boston team up and run the rest of the conference off the floor in the playoffs. The only reason why Boston did not win 5 straight conference finals was because of KG injury one year...and the formation of Miami's big three.

Why do people keep saying the Big 3 started in Boston? Study NBA history, every era besides the 70s has had a few stacked teams dominating the league. The only difference is nearly all the other teams before the Heat were assembled by trades/drafting.

[BBallZen83]

None of this really makes or breaks my feelings on the way the team was constructed and by whom, but just for the sake of whatever, 24 points and 11 rebounds on 52% shooting isn't too shabby for a random role player in a lesser market. I wouldn't mind if Jonas Jerebko started putting up numbers like that here.

I tend to take the opposite approach to matters. For me it's like, how top heavy with excellent talent does a team need to be in order for an efficient 20+ points and 10+ rebounds guy to more or less settle into a role?

Those semantics aside, it was still just a who and how type of thing for me. It's not really something I've been able to successfully compare 1:1 to any other situation I've witnessed. I thought it was stupid when Steve Francis refused to play for Vancouver. I thought it was dumb when Karl Malone and Gary Payton tried to piggy back toward a stacked ring. I even thought it was ridiculous when my Red Wings just began buying every possible star in sight.

But for whatever reason, maybe because I so enjoyed LeBron's Cleveland days, the Miami thing just has never sat well with me. Felt like a cop out, felt like a man happily trying to forgo competition, it felt like a lot of things. I know my opinion is obviously just that - an opinion, but it is what it is. I'd have enjoyed a LeBron James championship had it occurred under a different set of circumstances.
I see your point and I understand it. Maybe, Bosh has partly become a role player based on what Miami needs. But he still should be more important than he has been on grabbing some boards, and looking a little less passive.

I guess, coming from my point of view. I would have hated to continue to be frustrated year after year watching lebron plug away in futility as he never truly had the pieces to compete on a championship level. I believe 7 years is enough time to look at past indicators in gaining a perspective on future probability.

[Rake2204]

I see your point and I understand it. Maybe, Bosh has partly become a role player based on what Miami needs. But he still should be more important than he has been on grabbing some boards, and looking a little less passive.

I guess, coming from my point of view. I would have hated to continue to be frustrated year after year watching lebron plug away in futility as he never truly had the pieces to compete on a championship level. I believe 7 years is enough time to look at past indicators in gaining a perspective on future probability.Yeah, I think it just comes down to differing viewpoints and opinions, which tends to be how rivalries and favorites are established in the first place.

For starters, I was never from the camp of referring to LeBron's Cavaliers days as futilie. My viewpoint on the game is a 66 win team losing in six games in the Eastern Conference Finals (one of those losses being by a singe point, the other coming in overtime by two points) is not hopeless failure with a team offering no chance at success, let alone referring to it as futility.

It's not even mediocrity to me. That's championship contention. It's not wild for me to imagine the ball bouncing a different way in one of those games in '09 against the Magic, leading to a Cavs win and maybe a Finals appearance (which would have been their second in three years) against the Lakers where anything could have happened (Orlando only won a single Finals game, but lost two in overtime, suggesting the 4-1 loss wasn't a complete mismatch).

I think I would have been better understanding if LeBron James' teams truly were unable to compete or succeed on any level (say, wallowing in 35 win land) but regardless of the names pulled out of the hat (Mo Williams, Wally Szczerbiak, J.J. Hickson) they were still a team that was succeeding on an incredible level, which is what it's all about to me. 66 wins and sweeping through the first two rounds of the playoffs is not a sign of futility to me.

But again, even if James did play for a terrible team, I'm still not sure how I would have felt about him essentially creating his own super team from scratch. I don't think that means every player owes it to a city to wallow in misery, but I also don't think that means the only other option is trying to re-create the Dream Team so as to create a team that very nearly would never be able to be defeated in an NBA playoff series.

[SCdac]

Posts like this would make you think the goal is not to win a championship, but to look the most heroic, winning be damned. I couldn't see it more differently.

If anything I question the competitiveness of a star who will stay on a team that he knows has no chance of winning just to appear "loyal."

Seriously? The notion or concept of a team being too stacked goes over your head? That wasn't even a complicated or vague post I made. I'm curious, would you be cool with Dwight Howard going to the current Heat assuming he took less money? Would that show his competitiveness, and separate question, would owners and GM's have a legitimate gripe if that happened?

[PickernRoller]

Do people bitch about Westbrook, Harden and Durant? At least in the same tone as they do about the Heat? No. There is certainly a difference.

Harden now gone but still....the point gets across. No need for a thread to understand there's a difference. People disliking the idea or not is irrelevant to the fact. Context however; should not in any way be forgotten when measuring the accomplishments of this Heat team.

[Nebraskanball]

Yes. I actually think less of Heat fans that support it. It shows a lot about their character.

[SCdac]

Do people bitch about Westbrook, Harden and Durant?

Yeah it was ridiculous when they all chose to be on the same team together :rant

[Mr Exlax]

I'm ok with it because they weren't rivals. Those teams never went at each other in a series. If LeBron had joined Boston or San Antonio then it would bother me. As far as the Big 3 in Miami i'm cool with it. GMs try to get good teams all the time. Why is there such a big problem since the players did it themselves?

[FLDFSU]

Posts like this would make you think the goal is not to win a championship, but to look the most heroic, winning be damned. I couldn't see it more differently.

If anything I question the competitiveness of a star who will stay on a team that he knows has no chance of winning just to appear "loyal."



Why do people keep saying the Big 3 started in Boston? Study NBA history, every era besides the 70s has had a few stacked teams dominating the league. The only difference is nearly all the other teams before the Heat were assembled by trades/drafting.


Who said Boston started this?