Tim/Shaq lived on another level than Kobe

[Anaximandro1]

Let's take a look at some cold, hard numbers (Source: Basketball Reference)


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDqhuHG2mWk/UdBk6tG9fgI/AAAAAAAACTo/jNzG_oCB40A/s1201/5.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_webtFnuyU/UdBk60ulGwI/AAAAAAAACTs/4uy1YV_K8tM/s1125/6.jpg

[Electric Slide]

anyone who isn't a Kobe fan knows this.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

kobe was on that level for a couple years. he just didn't have the team around him 2006ish.

[theoneneo]

The problem is, when people remember these guys, no one is gonna bring up stats like Per and WS :facepalm Useless stats, the only stat that people care about at the end of the day is Points scored and W's and L's. That is all. You nerds go digging for meaningless stats... Kobe owns Timmy D in the playoffs, thats a fact. Absolutely destroyed him in 2001 and 2008. That's all we'll remember.

[bukowski81]

The problem is, when people remember these guys, no one is gonna bring up stats like Per and WS :facepalm Useless stats, the only stat that people care about at the end of the day is Points scored and W's and L's. That is all. You nerds go digging for meaningless stats... Kobe owns Timmy D in the playoffs, thats a fact. Absolutely destroyed him in 2001 and 2008. That's all we'll remember.

Timmy made him cry in 2003

[daily]

Those numbers actually do nothing to make your argument.

the difference between a % point here and there is so small that it comes down to one made shot a game or a bad pass here and there

the only glaring difference i see is blocked shots and rebounding but that's to be expected when you match a SG against a center in a agenda driven pissing contest

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah right :oldlol:

Best seasons
35-5-4 56ts
32-6-5 58ts
30-7-6 55ts

Best playoff runs
30-6-6 58ts
30-6-5 56ts
29-7-6 56ts

Career achievements
5 titles
15 all star teams
2 finals mvps
11 all nba first teams
Regular season mvp

[Magic 32]

Timmy made him cry in 2003

You don't want to go into a head-to-head discussion.

[bukowski81]

You don't want to go into a head-to-head discussion.

Theres no head to head discussion. Duncan is a PF/C, Kobe a SG. Duncan head to heads are against Shaq, Gasol, Bynum and Odom

[RRR3]

You don't want to go into a head-to-head discussion.
Duncan averages 25/14/4 with 2+ blocks per game against Kobe's teams in the playoffs.

[Electric Slide]

When Kobe has better numbers than another player, Kobe fans use numbers relentlessly.

When Kobe has inferior numbers than another player (Lebron), Kobe fans don't want to use stats at all and discredit the meaning of it.

[cotdt]

lol at these PER stat nerds. and lol at those using it to compare different positions.

[fpliii]

WS, WS/48, individual ORtg and individual DRtg are all contrived stats calculated from box score numbers (same with OWS and DWS). TS% is great, but the rest not so much. Team ORtg, team DRtg, are both great (if your guy is in a lot if games/plays heavy minutes, which stars do). So are TRB%, AST%, etc. Play-by-play metrics like RAPM have to be the most trustworthy.

[COnDEMnED]

Let's take a look at some cold, hard numbers (Source: Basketball Reference)


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDqhuHG2mWk/UdBk6tG9fgI/AAAAAAAACTo/jNzG_oCB40A/s1201/5.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-R_webtFnuyU/UdBk60ulGwI/AAAAAAAACTs/4uy1YV_K8tM/s1125/6.jpg
This has been beat to death, do we really need to get into this again?

[TonyMontana]

Good stats.

But when your comparing Shaq/Tim and to Kobe you don't even need to go that route it's painfully obvious.

Shaq/Kobe

-Both of these guys played their primes together. And yes Kobe in 2001 was as good as any Kobe ever. Shaq was CLEARLY the alpha on that team and this made Kobe butthurt. Shaq was the one coaches gameplanned for, Shaq was the one giving opposing teams nightmares, Shaq was the one winning the Finals MVPs.

And finally how each of them individually impacted the Lakers W/L.

Lakers record from 97-04

With Kobe: 284-126(.692)
W/O Kobe*: 32-10(.762)

With Shaq: 293-110(.727)
Without Shaq*: 23-25(.479)

*= only counting games where they didn't play but the other star played. 2-6 record with none playing.

And people think Kobe was better than Shaq? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: Guess the Finals MVPs weren't conclusive enough.

Kobe/Tim

-People say Kobe owned Duncan in the playoffs. Whenever Kobes beaten Tim in the playoffs it's because hes had the best team in the league BY FAR. Prime Shaq from 00-04, and then the Lakers were on a different planet than all the other western conference teams from 08-10. Boston was their only competition. I'm not impressed.

Kobe has never won a single playoff series in his career as an underdog.

In 3 years of Kobes prime years, he missed the playoffs, and lost in the first round twice.

Can you imagine a team with Prime Shaq or Prime Duncan not being able to win a single series in 3 years while being coached by Phil Jackson and with Lamar Odom? Me neither, these guys impact the game much more.

[SpecialQue]

Fvck yes! Just what I wanted, another "shit on Kobe" thread!!!!!!!

:djparty :dancin :party: :banana:

[The-Legend-24]

Tim Duncan for sure, I mean, dude is so much better, that he's relegated to being a role player on his OWN team for years and they still win 60 games. Yup, so much better than Kobe.

:roll: :roll:

[Odinn]

http://m1306.hizliresim.com/1b/y/ps0vr.jpg

[daily]

http://m1306.hizliresim.com/1b/y/ps0vr.jpg
needs to be updated or somebody purposely left off some info

[Smoke117]

True.

[SpecialQue]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/34157e1887c6e658b361bc766ea93abd/tumblr_ml4ijzUyRr1qjemo2o1_400.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/b449b4056fad7c05546e2a95a0defa3a/tumblr_mnodqboNmp1r0rwiuo3_250.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m98puagAto1rt0xgwo2_250.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m82anl25kq1r7k3tso1_400.gif

[Odinn]

needs to be updated
It's basically comparing their prime and when you make an all-time list or debate about something like this, your opinion is mostly based on the level of play in player's prime.

Kobe has the edge on longevity and Duncan has the edge on being a better playoff performer/more impactful player.

Prime wise (which is a extended version of a peak play) I do not agree with thread title. But there is a certain thing, Kobe never dominated a season as a whole (rs+po) like 2003 Duncan or 2000 Shaq.

[Anaximandro1]

-Advanced stats are far from perfect,but they do a good job when put in context.

-The players who guided their teams to multiple championships usually have immense ORtg-DRtg,PER,WS/48,USG% and TS%,regardless of their position.Then we can use TRB% or BLK% to compare big men or AST% to compare perimeter players.

-If you don't want to use advanced stats to back up your assertations,we shouldn't use any stats,including team stats like NBA titles.


-Duncan is an ultimate two way player,so he has an inmense ORtg-DRtg,WS/48,PER and a solid TS% TRB%,AST% and BLK%

-PER,WS/48,ORtg,USG%,TS% and ORB% show that Shaq was very dominant on the offensive end.

-Duncan and Shaq are by far the best players of the last 15 years (Lebron is knocking on their door)

-Kobe doesn't belong in the same sentence as Duncan/Shaq.

-Kobe is in the same ballpark as Wade and KG (and Dirk)

-KG is a terrific defender,but his offensive game is subpar.Wade and Kobe are pretty much interchangeable players.

-Jordan is the GOAT.Simple as that.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sY0kBkzBngU/UdiDZU-Gs6I/AAAAAAAACVE/_vJw4LXmXLM/s1600/1.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ef-Wp39gQ_A/UdiDZdMYhYI/AAAAAAAACVA/C9h71IuzRbI/s1600/2.jpg


WS/48 -- an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes

PER -- a measure of per-minute production standardized such that the league average is 15

ORtg -- an estimate of points produced per 100 possessions.

DRtg -- an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.

TS% -- a measure of shooting effeciency that takes into account 2-point field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

USG% - an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

TRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

ORB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available offensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

DRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

AST% -- an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.

STL% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the floor.

BLK% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent two-point field goal attempts blocked by the player while he was on the floor.

[TonyMontana]

-Advanced stats are far from perfect,but they do a good job when put in context.

-The players who guided their teams to multiple championships usually have immense ORtg-DRtg,PER,WS/48,USG% and TS%,regardless of their position.Then we can use TRB% or BLK% to compare big men or AST% to compare perimeter players.

-If you don't want to use advanced stats to back up your assertations,we shouldn't use any stats,including team stats like NBA titles.


-Duncan is an ultimate two way player,so he has an inmense ORtg-DRtg,WS/48,PER and a solid TS% TRB%,AST% and BLK%

-PER,WS/48,ORtg,USG%,TS% and ORB% show that Shaq was very dominant on the offensive end.

-Duncan and Shaq are by far the best players of the last 15 years (Lebron is knocking on their door)

-Kobe doesn't belong in the same sentence as Duncan/Shaq.

-Kobe is in the same ballpark as Wade and KG (and Dirk)

-KG is a terrific defender,but his offensive game is subpar.Wade and Kobe are pretty much interchangeable players.

-Jordan is the GOAT.Simple as that.

Intersting post.

Agree with a lot,disagre with some of what you say.

Agree
-Shaq/Duncan by far the two best player of the past 15 years
-LeBron is third
-Kobe is in the Wade tier, literally the only thing seperating them is longevity and rings(the later being a result of him having the GOAT coach and GOAT frontcourts on his team)
-KGs soft offensive game prevents him from being Shaq/Duncan level. He is actually softer than Dirk offensively despite him being a loud black and Dirk a white euro.

Disagree
-Dirk is a level above Kobe/Wade/KG. Carried Dallas to 50+ wins every year despite never having a consistant second star. None of those other guys were winning playoff series without another HOFer.
-Jordan isn't the GOAT. Hes a really rich mans Kobe. Best scorer ever, but he still doesn't effect the game as much as bigger players that dominate on both ends like Shaq/Duncan/LeBron.

[DMAVS41]

It's basically comparing their prime and when you make an all-time list or debate about something like this, your opinion is mostly based on the level of play in player's prime.

Kobe has the edge on longevity and Duncan has the edge on being a better playoff performer/more impactful player.

Prime wise (which is a extended version of a peak play) I do not agree with thread title. But there is a certain thing, Kobe never dominated a season as a whole (rs+po) like 2003 Duncan or 2000 Shaq.

Honestly Kobe doesn't have an edge on longevity. I took him a few years to become an elite player and since the title in 2010...Kobe has dropped off considerably with a poor showing in the 11 playoffs and being injured this year.

Duncan's actual impact just gets overlooked because he played limited minutes during the regular season and doesn't score the way he used to. But he's been a very good to great player the last few years outside of 11 really.

Give me the 18/10/3 player that plays elite interior defense over the high volume sg that has decided to not defend and breaks down by the time of the playoffs each of the last 3 years.

[DMAVS41]

Intersting post.

Agree with a lot,disagre with some of what you say.

Agree
-Shaq/Duncan by far the two best player of the past 15 years
-LeBron is third
-Kobe is in the Wade tier, literally the only thing seperating them is longevity and rings(the later being a result of him having the GOAT coach and GOAT frontcourts on his team)
-KGs soft offensive game prevents him from being Shaq/Duncan level. He is actually softer than Dirk offensively despite him being a loud black and Dirk a white euro.

Disagree
-Dirk is a level above Kobe/Wade/KG. Carried Dallas to 50+ wins every year despite never having a consistant second star. None of those other guys were winning playoff series without another HOFer.
-Jordan isn't the GOAT. Hes a really rich mans Kobe. Best scorer ever, but he still doesn't effect the game as much as bigger players that dominate on both ends like Shaq/Duncan/LeBron.

Can't believe I'm going to say this, but you over-rate Dirk and under-rate Jordan.

Did you watch Joran play? He was a better defender than both Shaq and Lebron. So that argument is kind of a joke...

[TonyMontana]

Can't believe I'm going to say this, but you over-rate Dirk and under-rate Jordan.

Did you watch Joran play? He was a better defender than both Shaq and Lebron. So that argument is kind of a joke...

He might be a better defender RELATIVE TO POSITION, but in the grand scheme of things Jordan cant effect a game defensively like a dominant big like Shaq can where he prevents everyone from attacking the paint, nor can he match LeBrons GOAT help defense and versatility.

[Heavincent]

Give me the 18/10/3 player that plays elite interior defense over the high volume sg that has decided to not defend and breaks down by the time of the playoffs each of the last 3 years.

He breaks down because he's carrying the scoring load and playing heavy minutes. It's not Kobe's fault that D'Antoni is a bonehead and plays his 34 year old 40 minutes a game. Same with Mike Brown last year.

[DMAVS41]

He breaks down because he's carrying the scoring load and playing heavy minutes. It's not Kobe's fault that D'Antoni is a bonehead and plays his 34 year old 40 minutes a game. Same with Mike Brown last year.

As if those coaches could tell Kobe what do actually do...LOL

[DMAVS41]

He might be a better defender RELATIVE TO POSITION, but in the grand scheme of things Jordan cant effect a game defensively like a dominant big like Shaq can where he prevents everyone from attacking the paint, nor can he match LeBrons GOAT help defense and versatility.

Nah. I just think MJ was a better defender than both...regardless of position.

[Magic 32]

Give me the 18/10/3 player that plays elite interior defense over the high volume sg that has decided to not defend and breaks down by the time of the playoffs each of the last 3 years.

Easy to say when Duncans situation hasn't changed since the 90's.

Kobe had to generate wins on two teams with crumbling infrastructure and crap coaching.

[DMAVS41]

Easy to say when Duncans situation hasn't changed since the 90's.

Kobe had to generate wins on two teams with crumbling infrastructure and crap coaching.

He also didn't have a huge role early on and then played 2nd fiddle for his first 8 years in the league. Essentially took a year off in 05 as well.

Goes both ways.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

Advance stats don't tell the whole story, Kobe's role was very different from Shaq and Duncan's roles. And you have to remember that the league was very post-oriented in the late 90s to mid-2000s.

[Human Error]

anyone who isn't a Kobe fan knows this.
This.

[Jacks3]

Same Duncan who Kobe completely owned in the 2001/2002/2004 AND 2008 playoffs? That Duncan?

:roll:

[NumberSix]

Shaq>Duncan>Kobe. Get over it and move on with your life.

[StocktonFan]

Duncan - the guy who was too scared to guard shaq, the guy who has had parker, ginobli and a great supporting cast carry his ass year after year while is banking ass takes credit?

lol okay

[MastaKilla]

If you put Kobe in Duncan's position in this years playoffs, and it's Kobe's teamed who choked away game 6, and it was Kobe's team who didn't get it done in game 7, or it was Kobe who had a teammate break the finals 3pt record AND STILL LOST Kobe would be crucified.

Such a double standard. Kobe gets more hate for winning a game 7 than Duncan does for losing a game 7.

The double standard on this website is ridiculous.

[Jacks3]

Duncan - the guy who was too scared to guard shaq, the guy who has had parker, ginobli and a great supporting cast carry his ass year after year while is banking ass takes credit?

lol okay
:applause:

[Jacks3]

If you put Kobe in Duncan's position in this years playoffs, and it's Kobe's teamed who choked away game 6, and it was Kobe's team who didn't get it done in game 7, or it was Kobe who had a teammate break the finals 3pt record AND STILL LOST Kobe would be crucified.

Such a double standard. Kobe gets more hate for winning a game 7 than Duncan does for losing a game 7.

The double standard on this website is ridiculous.
:applause:

[DMAVS41]

If you put Kobe in Duncan's position in this years playoffs, and it's Kobe's teamed who choked away game 6, and it was Kobe's team who didn't get it done in game 7, or it was Kobe who had a teammate break the finals 3pt record AND STILL LOST Kobe would be crucified.

Such a double standard. Kobe gets more hate for winning a game 7 than Duncan does for losing a game 7.

The double standard on this website is ridiculous.

Duncan in games 6 and 7 in the finals this year;

30/17
24/12/2/4(steals)

Spurs lost both games

The reason Duncan isn't getting hammered is because he was great in the two biggest games of the year and it took Parker/Manu/Green all choking horribly to lose.

Go back to game 7 in 2010...it was Kobe choking and his teammates carrying him...and his team won.

So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense.

[StocktonFan]

Duncan in games 6 and 7 in the finals this year;

30/17
24/12/2/4(steals)

Spurs lost both games

The reason Duncan isn't getting hammered is because he was great in the two biggest games of the year and it took Parker/Manu/Green all choking horribly to lose.

Go back to game 7 in 2010...it was Kobe choking and his teammates carrying him...and his team won.

So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense.

Are you really comparing Boston's defense to Miami's? Not to mention different positions? LOLOL That boston team has had one of the best defensive ratings in a LONG time

Joel Anthony and Casper sure were great defensive anchors right?

[DMAVS41]

Are you really comparing Boston's defense to Miami's? Not to mention different positions? LOLOL That boston team has had one of the best defensive ratings in a LONG time

I'm saying Duncan was better than Kobe in those games.

[StocktonFan]

I'm saying Duncan was better than Kobe in those games.

So you are comparing players that 1. play different positions 2. against different teams. awesome

Why dont we talk about the fact that Duncan has always had a TOP10 PG alongside?

[DMAVS41]

So you are comparison players that 1. play different positions 2. against different teams. awesome

That is more fair than just worrying about which players' team won the game.

Which is what you are doing. It should matter how a player plays for goodness sake.

The reason Kobe got hate is because he shot ****ing 6-24 in a game 7 of the NBA finals. It was awful...

[DMAVS41]

So you are comparing players that 1. play different positions 2. against different teams. awesome

Why dont we talk about the fact that Duncan has always had a TOP10 PG alongside?

Who has ever said Duncan didn't have really good help and coaching roughly his entire career?

He certainly never played on a team in which he was the clear cut 2nd best player or worse for 8 years. He never had that luxury...

Imagine Gasol choking in the finals this year the way Parker did. What would Lakers fans be saying about that? That is the true double standard actually.

[StocktonFan]

That is more fair than just worrying about which players' team won the game.

Which is what you are doing. It should matter how a player plays for goodness sake.

The reason Kobe got hate is because he shot ****ing 6-24 in a game 7 of the NBA finals. It was awful...

against a DEFENSIVE-driven team. Why are you ignoring 1. He's essentially NEVER had an average PG 2. Analysis said whoever wins in rebounding wins the game, how many rebounds did he finish with? 3. Just because he went 6-24, how much points did he finish with? One stat doesn't give a complete picture, show it all.

Also, Kobe is a SG who are meant to SHOOT.... and 6-24 is no doubt horrid shooting, but the other games he did well. yet you criticize him

Tim Duncan played as a C defensively, they are meant to rebound, game 4 he had 5 rebounds (and lost) but the other game she did well. yet you ignore this...

why the double standard

[MastaKilla]

Duncan in games 6 and 7 in the finals this year;

30/17
24/12/2/4(steals)

Spurs lost both games

The reason Duncan isn't getting hammered is because he was great in the two biggest games of the year and it took Parker/Manu/Green all choking horribly to lose.

Go back to game 7 in 2010...it was Kobe choking and his teammates carrying him...and his team won.

So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense.

How do you expect to have any credibility when you say things like "Kobe lucked out to win"

For one thing, Kobe was head and shoulders above anybody on either team in that finals, if his team showed up more in that series it doesn't even go 7.

Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team throughout the playoffs, Parker & Greene were the top FMVP choices if Spurs take game 6.

Duncan had a game or two where had minimal impact and his team still won.
Kobe was being talked up as the FMVP regardless of the outcome of the series

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan in games 6 and 7 in the finals this year;

30/17
24/12/2/4(steals)

Spurs lost both games

The reason Duncan isn't getting hammered is because he was great in the two biggest games of the year and it took Parker/Manu/Green all choking horribly to lose.

Go back to game 7 in 2010...it was Kobe choking and his teammates carrying him...and his team won.

So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense.
Who carried Kobe in that game? Kobe was the leading scorer in the game and had 15 rebounds. Oh and the Lakers lost when Kobe had 38 points in Game 5 and in Game 4 when he had 33, so let's not act like he wasn't carrying the team and his teammates didn't step up either.

[DMAVS41]

How do you expect to have any credibility when you say things like "Kobe lucked out to win"

For one thing, Kobe was head and shoulders above anybody on either team in that finals, if his team showed up more in that series it doesn't even go 7.

Duncan wasn't even the best player on his team throughout the playoffs, Parker & Greene were the top FMVP choices if Spurs take game 6.

Duncan had a game or two where had minimal impact and his team still won.
Kobe was being talked up as the FMVP regardless of the outcome of the series

We were solely talking about game 7. Look at his post please.

Oh...and Duncan wins finals MVP after his game 6 if the Spurs win.

You could also say the same thing about Parker and Manu in the finals. I dont' know where you are getting the Parker stuff. He was really bad outside the 4th qtr of game 1 and game really game 5. And was awful in the two biggest games. So you could say the same thing...if Duncan's teammates show up in either game 6 or 7...Spurs win.

[DMAVS41]

against a DEFENSIVE-driven team. Why are you ignoring 1. He's essentially NEVER had an average PG 2. Analysis said whoever wins in rebounding wins the game, how many rebounds did he finish with? 3. Just because he went 6-24, how much points did he finish with? One stat doesn't give a complete picture, show it all.

And then that makes Duncan's teammates poor play even that much worse if they struggled that much against a much worse defensive team.

Can't have it both ways.

You can try and revise it all you want...Kobe played a shit game 7 and was very lucky to win.

[StocktonFan]

And then that makes Duncan's teammates poor play even that much worse if they struggled that much against a much worse defensive team.

Can't have it both ways.

You can try and revise it all you want...Kobe played a shit game 7 and was very lucky to win.

So kobe as a SG had a bad shooting night - no one is disagreeing here

why are you ignoring Duncan's game 4 when he had 5 rebounds and lost?

This was at home too

When you say he was lucky to win - that's complete bullshit because you give no credit to other things he did. Why do you ignore the fact that he out rebounded every other player?

[DMAVS41]

So kobe as a SG had a bad shooting night - no one is disagreeing here

why are you ignoring Duncan's game 4 when he had 5 rebounds and lost?

This was at home too

When you say he was lucky to win - that's complete bullshit because you give no credit to other things he did. Why do you ignore the fact that he out rebounded every other player?

WE WERE ONLY TALKING ABOUT GAMES 6 AND 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StocktonFan]

WE WERE ONLY TALKING ABOUT GAMES 6 AND 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh so thats how player comparison works.... cherry pick playoff games and then generalize a career based off of them. Game 4 can't count obviously right?

And BTW, you were comparison ONLY those games with Jacks3, not with me...

Also, if we're only talking about two games here..

"So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense."

Then all of a sudden you are ignoring the importance of role players... according to you, we can ignore the fact that Green saved the spurs ass from embarrassment because he disappeared game 6 and 7....

[I<3NBA]

kobe was on that level for a couple years. he just didn't have the team around him 2006ish.
Lebron didn't have "the team" around him for 7 years in Cleveland. didn't prevent him from getting to that level.

[tpols]

Oh...and Duncan wins finals MVP after his game 6 if the Spurs win.
.
False.

Him and Parker were pretty much neck and neck up until that point and in the fourth when Lebron went into no headband god mode it was PARKER who saved the spurs asses with that long three to tie and that layup to take the lead. Not to mention those two shots he hit completely DESTROYED brons rythym and confidence he had going up until that point and started the train of choking that occured in the final 2-3 minutes.

Everyone was talking how Parkers late game heroics there would have gave him the nod.. especially combined with his game 1 clutchness.



Duncan missed a point blank layup to tie in a game 7 with like a minute to go.. Kobe would be CRUCIFIED for that. wed hear endless kobe aint clutch just like we hear it everytime he misses a late game shot. Same for bron.. Duncan is held to a much lower standard period.

[StocktonFan]

Lebron didn't have "the team" around him for 7 years in Cleveland. didn't prevent him from getting to that level.

Keep lebron out of this thread - you are the first to bring him up, for what?

gtfo, we're comparing players mentioned in OP.

[DMV2]

He might be a better defender RELATIVE TO POSITION, but in the grand scheme of things Jordan cant effect a game defensively like a dominant big like Shaq can where he prevents everyone from attacking the paint, nor can he match LeBrons GOAT help defense and versatility.
Isn't the point of perimeter defense is to prevent the ballhandler from getting into the paint, so how can you discredit that? Just because a perimeter won't get a block majority of the time doesn't mean his effort is much less valuable than a big who gets a block once the scorer gets into the paint.

It's just hard to put stats on perimeter defenders efforts because you'd have to look at how many FG his opposing scorer missed.

[basketballfan12]

Duncan in games 6 and 7 in the finals this year;

30/17
24/12/2/4(steals)

Spurs lost both games

The reason Duncan isn't getting hammered is because he was great in the two biggest games of the year and it took Parker/Manu/Green all choking horribly to lose.

Go back to game 7 in 2010...it was Kobe choking and his teammates carrying him...and his team won.

So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense.

A prime Kobe and a 37 year old Duncan shouldn't be held to the same standard anyways. How many 37 year olds can put up 19/12 with elite defense in the finals anyways.

[TheBigVeto]

anyone who isn't a Kobe fan knows this.

This

[DMAVS41]

Oh so thats how player comparison works.... cherry pick playoff games and then generalize a career based off of them. Game 4 can't count obviously right?

And BTW, you were comparison ONLY those games with Jacks3, not with me...

Also, if we're only talking about two games here..

"So we should prop up Kobe for lucking out to win because he got more help? Makes no sense."

Then all of a sudden you are ignoring the importance of role players... according to you, we can ignore the fact that Green saved the spurs ass from embarrassment because he disappeared game 6 and 7....

Not at all. I just responded to a comment about Duncan's game 6 and 7...in no way did I say that only 2 games matter.

So you are arguing with a ghost it seems...

[DMAVS41]

False.

Him and Parker were pretty much neck and neck up until that point and in the fourth when Lebron went into no headband god mode it was PARKER who saved the spurs asses with that long three to tie and that layup to take the lead. Not to mention those two shots he hit completely DESTROYED brons rythym and confidence he had going up until that point and started the train of choking that occured in the final 2-3 minutes.

Everyone was talking how Parkers late game heroics there would have gave him the nod.. especially combined with his game 1 clutchness.



Duncan missed a point blank layup to tie in a game 7 with like a minute to go.. Kobe would be CRUCIFIED for that. wed hear endless kobe aint clutch just like we hear it everytime he misses a late game shot. Same for bron.. Duncan is held to a much lower standard period.

Nah...Duncan would have gotten it. Parker was terrible in that game with a 6-23 performance. Making a couple big shots at the end in a loss doesn't mean much. Duncan was just too good in that game and had been already very good through 5 games.

But of course you want to prop up the player going 6-23...not surprised...

And what you Kobe fans don't realize is that people talk about Kobe's clutchness because all his fans propped him up as the most clutch player in the league for so long. Nobody was repping Duncan in that way. Hence the difference.

[The Iron Fist]

We were solely talking about game 7. Look at his post please.

Oh...and Duncan wins finals MVP after his game 6 if the Spurs win.

You could also say the same thing about Parker and Manu in the finals. I dont' know where you are getting the Parker stuff. He was really bad outside the 4th qtr of game 1 and game really game 5. And was awful in the two biggest games. So you could say the same thing...if Duncan's teammates show up in either game 6 or 7...Spurs win.
If Duncan is so great, there is no game 7.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Robert Horry: Kobe has had a better career than Duncan, Shaq

His answer is in the interview clip - http://houston.cbslocal.com/2013/05/28/robert-horry-olajuwon-over-duncan-hands-down/

[Kiddlovesnets]

Good thread, it is so obvious that Shaq/Duncan are way better than Kobe that only those desperate Kobestans would disagree. After all, theres a difference between top 10 players and top 15 players.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

Good thread, it is so obvious that Shaq/Duncan are way better than Kobe that only those desperate Kobestans would disagree. After all, theres a difference between top 10 players and top 15 players.
All 3 are top 10

[Lakers2877]

Has Kobe ever lost as the #1 overall seed in the playoffs IN THE FIRST ROUND?

I know Duncan has

Could you imagine how badly Kobe would get crucified if that happened?

For some reason though, Duncan gets a pass.

[basketballfan12]

Has Kobe ever lost as the #1 overall seed in the playoffs IN THE FIRST ROUND?

I know Duncan has

Could you imagine how badly Kobe would get crucified if that happened?

For some reason though, Duncan gets a pass.

Well he was 34 and at that point of his career he was only a solid to pretty good player, plus he still averaged 13/10/3/3 which were basically his regular season numbers.

If prime Duncan played way below his standards and lost in the first round then he should get crucified.

[longtime lurker]

Robert Horry: Kobe has had a better career than Duncan, Shaq

His answer is in the interview clip - http://houston.cbslocal.com/2013/05/28/robert-horry-olajuwon-over-duncan-hands-down/

/thread

What does Robert Horry know? He only played with all 3 of them. I'm sure the clowns on insidehoops know much more than him.

[tpols]

Nah...Duncan would have gotten it. Parker was terrible in that game with a 6-23 performance. Making a couple big shots at the end in a loss doesn't mean much. Duncan was just too good in that game and had been already very good through 5 games.

But of course you want to prop up the player going 6-23...not surprised...

And what you Kobe fans don't realize is that people talk about Kobe's clutchness because all his fans propped him up as the most clutch player in the league for so long. Nobody was repping Duncan in that way. Hence the difference.
He wasn't 6-23 during that sequence:oldlol:

Parker missed a shit load of shots in the overtime following. He was completely gassed being hounded by a 6'8 freak athlete being the main controller and offense creator against the best perimeter defense in the world.

While Duncan was scoring off rebounds and one dribble at most jumpers and hooks with subpar frontcourt guarding him. Parker had Sooo much more responsibility and pressure.

Duncan scored here and there.. Parker was expected to make impact with the ball on nearly every possession for himself and teammates

And nope your wrong.. We can sift through the game threads and consensus opinion was that parkers late game clutchness to win a championship would have given him the nod. FMVP is just as much about perception as anything else. And being the closer and clutchest player would've played a big role in the end series voting between two players that were neck and neck throughout.

[DMAVS41]

He wasn't 6-23 during that sequence:oldlol:

Parker missed a shit load of shots in the overtime following. He was completely gassed being hounded by a 6'8 freak athlete being the main controller and offense creator against the best perimeter defense in the world.

While Duncan was scoring off rebounds and one dribble at most jumpers and hooks with subpar frontcourt guarding him. Parker had Sooo much more responsibility and pressure.

Duncan scored here and there.. Parker was expected to make impact with the ball on nearly every possession for himself and teammates

And nope your wrong.. We can sift through the game threads and consensus opinion was that parkers late game clutchness to win a championship would have given him the nod. FMVP is just as much about perception as anything else. And being the closer and clutchest player would've played a big role in the end series voting between two players that were neck and neck throughout.

And that pressure obviously got to him...or the injury. He was awful in the two biggest games of the year while Duncan was great.

But that is sidetracking the actual debate.

The reason Duncan isn't hammered for what you say is because nobody was calling Duncan the most clutch guy in the league. Kobe gets hammered because people claim he's the most clutch guy in the league...but he's something like 7-28 now on playoff game winners. His numbers don't support it...etc.

And the reason Duncan doesn't get blame for the last two games is because he was ****ing great and his teammates let him down.

And again...we were talking about the last 2 games of the series. It's absurd to compare Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to what Duncan gave the Spurs in game 6 and 7 against the Heat...Duncan clearly performed better. The fact that people actually think it's debatable is ****ing absurd.

[DMAVS41]

Has Kobe ever lost as the #1 overall seed in the playoffs IN THE FIRST ROUND?

I know Duncan has

Could you imagine how badly Kobe would get crucified if that happened?

For some reason though, Duncan gets a pass.

Kobe got a pass in 08 when he lost as the favorite to the Celtics. A series that Kobe fans have somehow managed to revise as if the Lakers had not shot and that the series wasn't extremely close in reality...all while sweeping under the rug Kobe let his team give up a 24 point second half lead while doing nothing to stop it. Also got a pretty big pass by most fans when he lost in 11 as a huge favorite to the Mavs (sweep)

Got a pass for sucking balls against OKC early on in the 10 series as well. And the list could go on.

Don't give me this pass shit. Duncan didn't get a pass in 11...if people had been talking about him as a top 5 player and he played like that...he would have not gotten any pass. Hell...he's not even getting a pass in any way as I've seen many people on here call him a mere role player repeatedly over the last 2 years. Which he absolutely has not been.

Duncan doesn't need a pass anyway. He was the Spurs clear best player in the finals. Did exactly what you would expect and more. It was Parker, Manu, and Green that have been given passes for choking horribly in the two biggest games of the year.

I can't even imagine what Lakers fans would say if Odom, Gasol, and MWP combined for 9 of 35 in game 6 of the finals...with two other players choking on free throws that would have locked up the championship.

And then in game 7 the same three players combine for 10 of 36 shooting.

You want to know the real double standard? It's that Duncan's teammates have gotten huge passes for sucking balls in game 6 and 7.

[The-Legend-24]

Shaq = Couldn't win shit until Kobe showed up.

Duncan = Got shitted on repeatedly by Kobe in the playoffs.

Conclusion = Kobe >

[Doranku]

And that pressure obviously got to him...or the injury. He was awful in the two biggest games of the year while Duncan was great.

But that is sidetracking the actual debate.

The reason Duncan isn't hammered for what you say is because nobody was calling Duncan the most clutch guy in the league. Kobe gets hammered because people claim he's the most clutch guy in the league...but he's something like 7-28 now on playoff game winners. His numbers don't support it...etc.

And the reason Duncan doesn't get blame for the last two games is because he was ****ing great and his teammates let him down.

And again...we were talking about the last 2 games of the series. It's absurd to compare Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to what Duncan gave the Spurs in game 6 and 7 against the Heat...Duncan clearly performed better. The fact that people actually think it's debatable is ****ing absurd.


Same Duncan would disappeared in the second half of Game 6? Same Duncan who blew Game 7 by missing the easiest shot he had all night with 45 seconds left?

:oldlol: You talk about Kobe and being clutch yet coincidentally leave out the fact that Duncan fell apart in the clutch during Games 6 and 7.

Just look at the past three years. 2011, loses to an 8 seed as a 1 seed to the Grizzlies. :oldlol:

2012, gets backdoor swept by OKC after winning 10 straight playoff games. :roll:

2013, chokes when it matters in Games 6 and 7 of the finals. Not to mention he was absolutely terrible in game 2.

But of course, Duncan gets a pass for all of this while people still talk about Kobe getting "carried" by his teammates in Game 7 despite the fact that every single player on the court played like shit except Artest.

[tpols]

The only reason the Spurs won the games they did.. Was because of green and parker and Neal and their incredible shooting/perimeter attack. So they lived and died with what actually made them good.

Blaming Duncan's teammates for losing:oldlol: They would've been swept if not for their historic shooting and closing ability in the first place. Duncan was below average in all of their wins and even when he did play good at the end of the series it didn't matter because he never carried it over into the second half when they needed it most.

In that one 33 point game he had he scored like 30 in the first half.. Then fell off a cliff

[Doranku]

Kobe got a pass in 08 when he lost as the favorite to the Celtics. A series that Kobe fans have somehow managed to revise as if the Lakers had not shot and that the series wasn't extremely close in reality...all while sweeping under the rug Kobe let his team give up a 24 point second half lead while doing nothing to stop it. Also got a pretty big pass by most fans when he lost in 11 as a huge favorite to the Mavs (sweep)

Got a pass for sucking balls against OKC early on in the 10 series as well. And the list could go on.

Don't give me this pass shit. Duncan didn't get a pass in 11...if people had been talking about him as a top 5 player and he played like that...he would have not gotten any pass. Hell...he's not even getting a pass in any way as I've seen many people on here call him a mere role player repeatedly over the last 2 years. Which he absolutely has not been.

Duncan doesn't need a pass anyway. He was the Spurs clear best player in the finals. Did exactly what you would expect and more. It was Parker, Manu, and Green that have been given passes for choking horribly in the two biggest games of the year.

I can't even imagine what Lakers fans would say if Odom, Gasol, and MWP combined for 9 of 35 in game 6 of the finals...with two other players choking on free throws that would have locked up the championship.

And then in game 7 the same three players combine for 10 of 36 shooting.

You want to know the real double standard? It's that Duncan's teammates have gotten huge passes for sucking balls in game 6 and 7.

:roll: :roll: :roll: Only on ISH is a team that won 57 games favorite over a team that won 66 games with HCA.

Going along with the myth that Kobe was "carried" by his teammates in Game 7, the "most dominant frontcourt of all-time" of Gasol/Bynum/Odom were a combined 10 of 29 shooting from the field.

That's just as bad (might even be worse) than the Spurs players you mentioned combining for 10 of 36 shooting because all of those Laker players are 7 foot big men while all the Spurs players are perimeter players. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Shaq and Duncan were better than Kobe, but these advanced stats are ridiculous. All they are is the basic stats we've had except added all together in a formula with subjective values and subjective adjustments made based on the opinion of whoever made these ridiculous formulas.

Win shares are terrible as it is, so we certainly don't need win shares per 48 minutes. To put things into perspective, according to win shares per 48 minutes, Clyde Drexler was better than Hakeem on the '95 Rockets. :facepalm

[rmt]

You guys who are comparing Kobe's game 7 to Duncan's recent run do realize that you're comparing a 31 year old in his prime to a 38 year old, don't you?

If Spurs win game 6, Duncan (TD 30/17, TP 19/8) wins FMVP (average TD 18/12.2 TP 16.7/6.8). If Spurs win game 7, for sure TD (TD 24/12, TP 10/4) wins FMVP (average TD 18.9/12.1, TP 15.7/6.4).

[Doranku]

You guys who are comparing Kobe's game 7 to Duncan's recent run do realize that you're comparing a 31 year old in his prime to a 38 year old, don't you?

If Spurs win game 6, Duncan (TD 30/17, TP 19/8) wins FMVP (average TD 18/12.2 TP 16.7/6.8). If Spurs win game 7, for sure TD (TD 24/12, TP 10/4) wins FMVP (average TD 18.9/12.1, TP 15.7/6.4).

But they didn't. And Duncan disappearing in the second half of game 6 and missing a gimmie with 45 seconds left in game 7 played a big part in why they didn't.

Not to mention Kobe wasn't in his prime and was injured the entire playoffs that year. He had his knee drained multiple times throughout the playoffs.

Also, playing your game, if Kobe's teammates don't suck dick in Game 5 where Kobe dropped 38, Kobe wins finals MVP with something like 30/7/5 averages on 47% and this isn't even a discussion. :confusedshrug:

[rmt]

But they didn't. And Duncan disappearing in the second half of game 6 and missing a gimmie with 45 seconds left in game 7 played a big part in why they didn't.

Not to mention Kobe wasn't in his prime and was injured the entire playoffs that year. He had his knee drained multiple times throughout the playoffs.

Also, playing your game, if Kobe's teammates don't suck dick in Game 5 where Kobe dropped 38, Kobe wins finals MVP with something like 30/7/5 averages on 47% and this isn't even a discussion. :confusedshrug:

Duncan was BY FAR the best player in games 6 and 7. Disappearing in the second half of game 6? - is 30/17 not enough for you?

Kobe wasn't in his prime at 31 but you criticize Duncan at 38? The situations are not comparable. All you Kobe stans who play the game that it's Parker's team and Duncan's just a role player can't have it both ways. Only Kobe stans could possibly be criticizing a 30/17 and 24/12 performance by a 38 year old or think that Duncan wasn't the best Spur in the Finals.

[Rysio]

there is nothing that duncan does better on offense than kobe nothing. and nba is offense first league. so stop acting like this choker is anywhere near mamba.

[Doranku]

Duncan was BY FAR the best player in games 6 and 7. Disappearing in the second half of game 6? - is 30/17 not enough for you?

Kobe wasn't in his prime at 31 but you criticize Duncan at 38? The situations are not comparable. All you Kobe stans who play the game that it's Parker's team and Duncan's just a role player can't have it both ways. Only Kobe stans could possibly be criticizing a 30/17 and 24/12 performance by a 38 year old or think that Duncan wasn't the best Spur in the Finals.

I never said he wasn't the best Spur. I said he disappeared in Game 6 and missed a HUGE shot with 45 seconds left right at the rim in Game 7 which could have tied the game.

If Kobe had done that, people would be pointing it out left and right. Just staying consistent. Oh, and on this site, FG% is the only thing that matters and he was 8/18 (44%) in Game 7. Pretty bad for a big man.

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll: :roll: Only on ISH is a team that won 57 games favorite over a team that won 66 games with HCA.

Going along with the myth that Kobe was "carried" by his teammates in Game 7, the "most dominant frontcourt of all-time" of Gasol/Bynum/Odom were a combined 10 of 29 shooting from the field.

That's just as bad (might even be worse) than the Spurs players you mentioned combining for 10 of 36 shooting because all of those Laker players are 7 foot big men while all the Spurs players are perimeter players. :oldlol:

No. Not on ISH...the Lakers were actually favored. Do you even know what that means? They were the vegas favorites...I didn't and don't agree with that, but it's just fact.

And no...not at all with Gasol/Odom/Bynum...those guys bring much more to the table with rebounding and defense...etc. Than Parker, Manu, and Green do...not even close to as bad of a performance.

Just think of it this way...imagine if Duncan had played as poorly as Kobe did in game 7 in either game...the Spurs lose by double digits in both games. End of story...

[DMAVS41]

I never said he wasn't the best Spur. I said he disappeared in Game 6 and missed a HUGE shot with 45 seconds left right at the rim in Game 7 which could have tied the game.

If Kobe had done that, people would be pointing it out left and right. Just staying consistent. Oh, and on this site, FG% is the only thing that matters and he was 8/18 (44%) in Game 7. Pretty bad for a big man.

People are pointing it out. Hell...it's all I've heard. What people aren't pointing out is that Parker was actually very poor overall in the series. Oustside of game 1 4th qtr and game 5...he did nothing. In fact...with his poor defense and inability to manufacture points at the line...he was a negative in the last 2 games overall probably and Pop saw it.

If Gasol had played that poorly in a game 6 and 7 of the NBA finals we'd never hear the end of it. Yet Parker has gotten a pass....

That is the real double standard. This myth that Duncan got a pass for missing that layup or struggling in the 2nd half of game 6 is a joke...nobody here is giving him a pass. He played great and is still getting hammered. Where are the Parker threads? Tpols went on and on and on about how great Parker was and how he was an elite player in the league and clearly the best player on the Spurs. Why are the standards for him so low? 6-23 in game 6 and then no shows game 7...but it's the guy who played great who is at fault.

Duncan is actually being held to a higher standard than Kobe. Kobe goes 6-24 in a game 7 in the finals and gets carried and people claim he played well. Duncan plays great and his teammates suck and we have to defend him because he missed a shot. It's hilarious actually.

Also, pretending like Kobe's expectations haven't dramatically gone down since that game 7 in 2010 is a joke. He played awful in that game 7 and then has clearly seen a drop in play since then. He's stopped playing any defense and has worn down in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. Duncan is ****ing 37 or 38 years old as well...

[branslowski]

Ppl still spreading lies...

Kobe in that game 7: 24pts 15reb (including 10pts in a tight 4th quarter) Please stop trolling saying Kobe was carried. No one in that game shot well...F*ckin morons.:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Ppl still spreading lies...

Kobe in that game 7: 24pts 15reb (including 10pts in a tight 4th quarter) Please stop trolling saying Kobe was carried. No one in that game shot well...F*ckin morons.:facepalm

Kobe was not good in that game overall. Just a fact. Anyone saying otherwise is revising history. The Lakers outside of Kobe shot 36%. Kobe shot 11% worse at 25%...a huge difference on its own...but factor in Kobe's 24 shots and it makes it even worse as he refused to stop chucking it up.

Just a really poor game overall. Not the worst game ever, but a shit game...and he scored 23 not 24...just for accuracy sake.

But that isn't even the point of the discussion I've been having. Nobody would be saying anything negative about Kobe in that game if he had played as well as Duncan in games 6 or 7. There is absolutely no double standard...like I've said.

The only double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and Kobe's never do.

[STATUTORY]

No. Not on ISH...the Lakers were actually favored. Do you even know what that means? They were the vegas favorites...I didn't and don't agree with that, but it's just fact.

And no...not at all with Gasol/Odom/Bynum...those guys bring much more to the table with rebounding and defense...etc. Than Parker, Manu, and Green do...not even close to as bad of a performance.

Just think of it this way...imagine if Duncan had played as poorly as Kobe did in game 7 in either game...the Spurs lose by double digits in both games. End of story...

:roll: :roll:
u didn't actually watch that series did u?

Odom and Gsasol got outrebounded BY LEON POWE

you are such a hypocrite. When it comes to lebron's supporting cast it's all about how they actually perform but when it's kobe's supporting cast we just list the names and ignoret their subpar output

keep doing what you are doing tho

[branslowski]

Kobe was not good in that game overall. Just a fact. Anyone saying otherwise is revising history. The Lakers outside of Kobe shot 36%. Kobe shot 11% worse at 25%...a huge difference on its own...but factor in Kobe's 24 shots and it makes it even worse as he refused to stop chucking it up.

Just a really poor game overall. Not the worst game ever, but a shit game...and he scored 23 not 24...just for accuracy sake.

But that isn't even the point of the discussion I've been having. Nobody would be saying anything negative about Kobe in that game if he had played as well as Duncan in games 6 or 7. There is absolutely no double standard...like I've said.

The only double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and Kobe's never do.

I don't give Duncan's teammates a pass...I like Duncan and have him higher on my All-time list than Kobe...I'm not into the pushing lies and agenda thing like you guys.

How you gonna use the word "overall game" and yet at the same time only focus on Kobe fg%? That makes no sense wat so ever and you clearly know this.

Kobe had 23pts and 15reb, also played solid D in a defensive game where no one shot well. He scored 10pts in the 4th (how could you ignore this) of a neck and neck game, something his team needed. He shot bad but came up big where we needed it while grabbing 15rebounds at the SG position and adding 23pts. He clearly wasn't "carried" as some morons would like to say.

I could see if Gasol scored like 35pts 18 reb on 55%fg in that game and ppl saying Kobe got carried, then I would agree and Gasol would have won finals MVP. But the blatant fact is that that didnt happen, and the world (besides the Bryant haters) seen Kobe score 23pts 15reb and outscored any other individual player in the Key 4th quarter with 10 clutch points.

Its fact. Don't spew out "overall game" wen you clearly don't even wanna mention the true factors of his overall game, wen you only want to list wat goes with ur agenda, his fg%. Stop it, ur better than this.

And I agree with you that Duncan would have won Finals MVP if Spurs win that game. And Parker vanished. It was clear as day. No agendas here, just truth.

[crisoner]

Another stupid agenda thread. SMH

[DMAVS41]

:roll: :roll:
u didn't actually watch that series did u?

Odom and Gsasol got outrebounded BY LEON POWE

you are such a hypocrite. When it comes to lebron's supporting cast it's all about how they actually perform but when it's kobe's supporting cast we just list the names and ignoret their subpar output

keep doing what you are doing tho

Stop jumping in and trying to join a conversation you are clearly missing. It was about comparing the the play of their teammates in those games. Forget Bynum...that doesn't even matter.

My point was that for some reason...the fact that Parker absolutely was awful the last 2 games of the Finals this series has gone unnoticed. And if Kobe's 2nd best guy did that in game 6 or 7 of the NBA finals...it wouldn't go unnoticed.

That is the true double standard.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:roll: :roll:
u didn't actually watch that series did u?

Odom and Gsasol got outrebounded BY LEON POWE

you are such a hypocrite. When it comes to lebron's supporting cast it's all about how they actually perform but when it's kobe's supporting cast we just list the names and ignoret their subpar output

keep doing what you are doing tho

This is actually a good point. All things being equal, those guys did NOT perform up to their standards. They should be judged accordingly.

[DMAVS41]

I don't give Duncan's teammates a pass...I like Duncan and have him higher on my All-time list than Kobe...I'm not into the pushing lies and agenda thing like you guys.

How you gonna use the word "overall game" and yet at the same time only focus on Kobe fg%? That makes no sense wat so ever and you clearly know this.

Kobe had 23pts and 15reb, also played solid D in a defensive game where no one shot well. He scored 10pts in the 4th (how could you ignore this) of a neck and neck game, something his team needed. He shot bad but came up big where we needed it while grabbing 15rebounds at the SG position and adding 23pts. He clearly wasn't "carried" as some morons would like to say.

I could see if Gasol scored like 35pts 18 reb on 55%fg in that game and ppl saying Kobe got carried, then I would agree and Gasol would have won finals MVP. But the blatant fact is that that didnt happen, and the world (besides the Bryant haters) seen Kobe score 23pts 15reb and outscored any other individual player in the Key 4th quarter with 10 clutch points.

Its fact. Don't spew out "overall game" wen you clearly don't even wanna mention the true factors of his overall game, wen you only want to list wat goes with ur agenda, his fg%. Stop it, ur better than this.

And I agree with you that Duncan would have won Finals MVP if Spurs win that game. And Parker vanished. It was clear as day. No agendas here, just truth.

So now it's spewing lies to say Kobe played a poor overall game? He did. I don't mean that like his overall game is poor...I mean if I was rating the way he played in that game overall was poor. Which it was in my opinion.

Let me try to put it this way. If I was grading Kobe on a scale of 1 to 10 for his game 7...I'd rate it at a 4...maybe a 5. I never said it was the worst game ever and I never said we should disregard his rebounding, defense, and a couple big 4th qtr plays. I just don't think those other things matter as much as you do clearly.

I just think there is a difference between being the 3rd best player on your team in a game 7 like Kobe was and being the clear cut best player like Duncan was in game 7.

So I'm just confused as to what people are talking about. Duncan played better than Kobe. Kobe clearly got more help. Seems to me Kobe's teammates take more criticism than Duncan's do. And while Kobe certainly takes more criticism than Duncan overall...it's because his fans claim things that just aren't true...like the whole clutch shit. If someone was claiming Duncan was the most clutch player in the league...etc. He's get more criticism.

But what I find funny is that people were propping Parker (mainly Kobe fans) like he was way better than he actually is...and then just said nothing when Parker really struggled overall in the finals and then no showed the two biggest games of the year. Just seems to me that Gasol would get destroyed in the media and on here if he did that in games 6 and 7 in the finals.

[Doranku]

People are pointing it out. Hell...it's all I've heard. What people aren't pointing out is that Parker was actually very poor overall in the series. Oustside of game 1 4th qtr and game 5...he did nothing. In fact...with his poor defense and inability to manufacture points at the line...he was a negative in the last 2 games overall probably and Pop saw it.

If Gasol had played that poorly in a game 6 and 7 of the NBA finals we'd never hear the end of it. Yet Parker has gotten a pass....

That is the real double standard. This myth that Duncan got a pass for missing that layup or struggling in the 2nd half of game 6 is a joke...nobody here is giving him a pass. He played great and is still getting hammered. Where are the Parker threads? Tpols went on and on and on about how great Parker was and how he was an elite player in the league and clearly the best player on the Spurs. Why are the standards for him so low? 6-23 in game 6 and then no shows game 7...but it's the guy who played great who is at fault.

Duncan is actually being held to a higher standard than Kobe. Kobe goes 6-24 in a game 7 in the finals and gets carried and people claim he played well. Duncan plays great and his teammates suck and we have to defend him because he missed a shot. It's hilarious actually.

Also, pretending like Kobe's expectations haven't dramatically gone down since that game 7 in 2010 is a joke. He played awful in that game 7 and then has clearly seen a drop in play since then. He's stopped playing any defense and has worn down in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. Duncan is ****ing 37 or 38 years old as well...

Can you stop saying he "got carried"? WHO THE F*CK CARRIED HIM???????? Such a ridiculous phrasing. Everyone played like dog shit in that game.

And what is this breaking down in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years? 2011 was uncharacteristic for him, not sure what was going on then. But he looked much better last year and all of this year until he ruptured his Achilles.

Do you know anything about that injury? It's a freak injury that can happen to anyone at any time. It has nothing to do with him "wearing down" or "dropping off".

Parker, I'm assuming, gets a pass because he injured himself in game 3. And let's not act like Pau was some beast all series in 2010 either. He disappeared on the road and his best game came in a loss during game 2 I believe.

I'm not denying that Duncan played well, especially considering his age. I'm also not claiming that Kobe played well in Game 7. But he got his shit together and played very well in the 4th quarter and ended up winning the game. No one brings that up, all we hear is 6-24 this, 6-24 that.

You think if Kobe put up 25 points in the first half of a finals game to win the championship, and only scored 5 the second half in a close loss that no one would bring it up? Please.

[DMAVS41]

Can you stop saying he "got carried"? WHO THE F*CK CARRIED HIM???????? Such a ridiculous phrasing. Everyone played like dog shit in that game.

And what is this breaking down in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years? 2011 was uncharacteristic for him, not sure what was going on then. But he looked much better last year and all of this year until he ruptured his Achilles.

Do you know anything about that injury? It's a freak injury that can happen to anyone at any time. It has nothing to do with him "wearing down" or "dropping off".

Parker, I'm assuming, gets a pass because he injured himself in game 3. And let's not act like Pau was some beast all series in 2010 either. He disappeared on the road and his best game came in a loss during game 2 I believe.

I'm not denying that Duncan played well, especially considering his age. I'm also not claiming that Kobe played well in Game 7. But he got his shit together and played very well in the 4th quarter and ended up winning the game. No one brings that up, all we hear is 6-24 this, 6-24 that.

You think if Kobe put up 25 points in the first half of a finals game to win the championship, and only scored 5 the second half in a close loss that no one would bring it up? Please.


It's a little odd when Kobe is the 3rd best player on his own team in a game 7. If you don't like the word "carried"...fine...Kobe was the 3rd best player in that game.

Duncan is getting called out for that. So I don't ****ing get it. Where is the doubles standard? Duncan is getting called out for playing much better than Kobe played in the games we are comparing.

And Kobe wearing down? He wore down in 2011. He was actually hurt in 2010 against the Thunder and was very fortunate to have enough help to win that series. He played well in 12...although he abandoned any defense in the playoffs completely. And then this year he missed the playoffs.

If this was Wade people would be going crazy about how often he's not 100% and injured at the end of the year.

But with Kobe...it's all swept under the rug. I don't care if it's a fluke injury or not...he missed the playoffs. So in 2 of the last 3 years Kobe has either been well below average or missed them completely. Do you dispute simple facts like that? This notion that the standards for Kobe haven't been dropped after the 10 finals is absurd.

[branslowski]

Gino you just said Kobe was the 3rd best player? Really? He didnt play the greatest game ever, but he was clearly the best player on the floor.

23pts 15reb (10pts in the 4th) >>20pts 5reb (2 4th quarter points)....gtfo.


Then these same ppl talk stacked frontline: (Bynum- 2pts 6reb, Odom 7pts 7reb:facepalm )..If you wanna bring up fg% as the only counting factor since thats the only thing Kobe didn't do well in, then Derek Fisher (65%fg) was the best player in the game..

Are some of you ppl legally retarded? Or just trolling?:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Gino you just said Kobe was the 3rd best player? Really? He didnt play the greatest game ever, but he was clearly the best player on the floor.

23pts 15reb (10pts in the 4th) >>20pts 5reb (2 4th quarter points)....gtfo.


Then these same ppl talk stacked frontline: (Bynum- 2pts 6reb, Odom 7pts 7reb:facepalm )..If you wanna bring up fg% as the only counting factor since thats the only thing Kobe didn't do well in, then Derek Fisher (65%fg) was the best player in the game..

Are some of you ppl legally retarded? Or just trolling?:facepalm

Both Gasol and MWP were better than Kobe in game 7. It's bad enough that you dispute that...but you don't stop there. You have to claim that Kobe was clearly the best player in the game. Which is honestly one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while on here.

Do you hold Lebron to the same low standards you do Kobe? Do you think Lebron is clearly a better player than Kobe ever was? Because if you compare Lebron's overall game...it destroys Kobe's.

What did you think of Lebron's game 6 against the Celtics in which he had something like 27/19/10 and some steals if I remember correctly. It wasn't a good game...everyone that watched it knows it wasn't as good as those numbers. But I've heard people trash him for that game...many Kobe fans actually.

Curious to know what you thought of that game and what you think of Lebron overall...because it seems like almost every game Lebron has ever played could fall into the category Kobe's game 7 does...

Oh...and stop lying about things. I know for a ****ing fact MWP had more than 2 points in the 4th.

[tpols]

My point was that for some reason...the fact that Parker absolutely was awful the last 2 games of the Finals this series has gone unnoticed. And if Kobe's 2nd best guy did that in game 6 or 7 of the NBA finals...it wouldn't go unnoticed.
Pau Gasol, Kobe's second best guy shot

6-16
6-14

In the final two games as a 7 foot center. That is atrocious shooting.


Lamar Odom.. Kobe's third guy went

3-9
3-8


:oldlol:

[branslowski]

Both Gasol and MWP were better than Kobe in game 7. It's bad enough that you dispute that...but you don't stop there. You have to claim that Kobe was clearly the best player in the game. Which is honestly one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while on here.

No Gasol and MWP wasn't...Again 23pts 15reb (10pts in 4th quarter) >>>20pts 5reb (ONLY 2 4TH QUARTER POINTS) WHAT ARE YOU NOT SEEING?? ^^^^ DO YOU SEE THAT?! DO YOU? How is it dumb wen the play and numbers clearly back my statement up? Smh...

Do you wanna know the dumbest things I heard? Calling players on a frontline "stacked" while one of them puts up 2pts 6reb and the other puts up 7pts 7reb!

Again 23pts 15reb (10pts 4th quarter>>>>20pts 5reb (2pt 4th quarter.) Again, how is ur frontline stacked wen Bynum has 2pts 6reb and Odom has 7pts 7reb??:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

No Gasol and MWP wasn't...Again 23pts 15reb (10pts in 4th quarter) >>>20pts 5reb (ONLY 2 4TH QUARTER POINTS) WHAT ARE YOU NOT SEEING?? ^^^^ DO YOU SEE THAT?! DO YOU? How is it dumb wen the play and numbers clearly back my statement up? Smh...

Do you wanna know the dumbest things I heard? Calling players on a frontline "stacked" while one of them puts up 2pts 6reb and the other puts up 7pts 7reb!

Again 23pts 15reb (10pts 4th quarter>>>>20pts 5reb (2pt 4th quarter.) Again, how is ur frontline stacked wen Bynum has 2pts 6reb and Odom has 7pts 7reb??:facepalm

You are using a 1 game sample to talk about whether or not a team is stacked. That is retarded. In that game they didn't play great...did I ever say that Bynum or Odom was great in that game?

MWP had 6 points in the 4th by the way...LOL

That is the equivalent to me saying;

"How is Kobe an all time great player...he shot 6-24 in game 7 of the finals"

The fact that people continue to try and pretend Gasol wasn't an absolute beast in the 10 playoffs is just shocking to me. Shocking.

[DMAVS41]

Pau Gasol, Kobe's second best guy shot

6-16
6-14

In the final two games as a 7 foot center. That is atrocious shooting.


Lamar Odom.. Kobe's third guy went

3-9
3-8


:oldlol:

Wait. Are you actually saying that Parker was anywhere near as good as Gasol was in game 7? Please answer.

This is the true double standard right here;

Parker averages 21/3/7 on 52% TS and he's the clear cut best player on the Spurs with people like you propping him absurdly..he's the 3rd best player in the league...ROFL

Gasol averages 20/11/4 60% TS and fans of his own team try to undervalue him

Oh...and Gasol stepped up when his team needed him the most while Parker completely no showed.

Again...double standard is double standard.

[tpols]

Everyone shot like shit in that game

Ray Allen.. Notorious clutch player
3-14

Paul Pierce.. Again big game player
5-15

Pau Gasol.. The carrier of legends
6-16

Metta.. Who everyone praised
7-18


Cs shot 39 percent
LA shot 33.

Reason LA won despite worst team shooting performance possibly ever?

Out rebounded Boston 53 to 40 with leading rebounders for the game being kobe at 15 and pau at 18.

And FTs.. LA got 20 more than Boston. Kobe had 15 and pau had 13.

[DMAVS41]

Everyone shot like shit in that game

Ray Allen.. Notorious clutch player
3-14

Paul Pierce.. Again big game player
5-15

Pau Gasol.. The carrier of legends
6-16

Metta.. Who everyone praised
7-18


Cs shot 39 percent
LA shot 33.

Reason LA won despite worst team shooting performance possibly ever?

Out rebounded Boston 53 to 40 with leading rebounders for the game being kobe at 15 and pau at 18.

And FTs.. LA got 20 more than Boston. Kobe had 15 and pau had 13.

I agree with this. So? Kobe still shot 11% worse than his team and chucked up a ton of terrible shots. And Gasol and MWP also played very well overall. Nobody is disputing anything you said above....that just doesn't mean Kobe was better than Gasol or MWP.

Lets try this another way.

Comparing Kobe's game 7 vs Duncan's game 7...which is how this started. Who do you think played better?

Which player do you think got more help?

[tpols]

Wait. Are you actually saying that Parker was anywhere near as good as Gasol was in game 7? Please answer.

This is the true double standard right here;

Parker averages 21/3/7 on 52% TS and he's the clear cut best player on the Spurs with people like you propping him absurdly..he's the 3rd best player in the league...ROFL

Gasol averages 20/11/4 60% TS and fans of his own team .
First off pau averaged 18.5 on 55TS in the finals while Kobe had 28 on 53 with the defense far more focused on him.

Parker WAS better than Duncan throughout the playoffs up until game 6 and 7. You are using TWO games as the basis while I'm using the full sample.

And same for Kobe.. Was clearly better than Gasol throughout the entirety but you're honing in on one game out of 24.:oldlol:

[branslowski]

You are using a 1 game sample to talk about whether or not a team is stacked. That is retarded. In that game they didn't play great...did I ever say that Bynum or Odom was great in that game?

MWP had 6 points in the 4th by the way...LOL

That is the equivalent to me saying;

"How is Kobe an all time great player...he shot 6-24 in game 7 of the finals"

The fact that people continue to try and pretend Gasol wasn't an absolute beast in the 10 playoffs is just shocking to me. Shocking.

I forgot about the 3 Artest hit....6pts (still lower than 10). And since ur not replying to the compared numbers I assume u concede that Kobe>>>Artest....

So you don't want that one game? Fair enough:

Bynum- Playoffs during first finals run: 6ppg 3reb
Bynum-Playoffs during 2nd finals run: 8ppg 7reb

Stacked stats? Hell noooo! All time most stacked type stats? Hell noooo!

Odom- Playoffs during first Run: 12ppg 9reb (solid role player numbers, only 1 less point than Mo Williams, but FAR from Alltime most stacked numbers

Odom-Playoffs during 2nd Run: 9ppg 8reb! Really? Stacked stuff here ppl...Wat? You want me to replace him with Artest? Ok....Artest: 11ppg 4reb 39%fg STACKED STUFF!

Even after reading these facts, you'll still continue on spewing ur BS calling this frontline stacked saying these players were carrying Kobe...GTFO.

[tpols]

I agree with this. So? Kobe still shot 11% worse than his team and chucked up a ton of terrible shots. And Gasol and MWP also played very well overall.
Dude..

MWP had 20 points on 18 shots with the defense not focused on him.
Gasol had 19 on 16 shots.
Kobe had 23 on 24.. And more rebounds and assists than metta.

But metta played very well and kobe played like shit? Doesn't add up.


I
Which player do you think got more help?
Throughout the whole playoffs? Duncan was the help. He wasn't even the best player. Parker was better up until the Finals and then was better in the first few games and led a clutch comeback that should've closed he game out if not for a miracle sequence.

There is no question to be answered here. Duncan wasn't even better than 2010 Pau. Kobe throughout the whole playoffs was better than both and kawhi/manu/green/Neal were better role players than anyone on LA.

[Dionysus]

Wanted to stop by and say LeBron is better than any other player mentioned in this thread. And that this Dmavs bloke is getting torn to shreds:lol

[branslowski]

I forgot about the 3 Artest hit....6pts (still lower than 10). And since ur not replying to the compared numbers I assume u concede that Kobe>>>Artest....

So you don't want that one game? Fair enough:

Bynum- Playoffs during first finals run: 6ppg 3reb
Bynum-Playoffs during 2nd finals run: 8ppg 7reb

Stacked stats? Hell noooo! All time most stacked type stats? Hell noooo!

Odom- Playoffs during first Run: 12ppg 9reb (solid role player numbers, only 1 less point than Mo Williams, but FAR from Alltime most stacked numbers

Odom-Playoffs during 2nd Run: 9ppg 8reb! Really? Stacked stuff here ppl...Wat? You want me to replace him with Artest? Ok....Artest: 11ppg 4reb 39%fg STACKED STUFF!

Even after reading these facts, you'll still continue on spewing ur BS calling this frontline stacked saying these players were carrying Kobe...GTFO.

Guess that's thread.../

[STATUTORY]

I agree with this. So? Kobe still shot 11% worse than his team and chucked up a ton of terrible shots. And Gasol and MWP also played very well overall. Nobody is disputing anything you said above....that just doesn't mean Kobe was better than Gasol or MWP.

Lets try this another way.

Comparing Kobe's game 7 vs Duncan's game 7...which is how this started. Who do you think played better?

Which player do you think got more help?

you can't judge supporting cast based on one play. over the course of the 7 game series DUncan got much more help from his teammates than kobe had from his.

relying on a single game sample size? :rolleyes:

[Jacks3]

Wanted to stop by and say LeBron is better than any other player mentioned in this thread. And that this Dmavs bloke is getting torn to shreds:lol
:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

First off pau averaged 18.5 on 55TS in the finals while Kobe had 28 on 53 with the defense far more focused on him.

Parker WAS better than Duncan throughout the playoffs up until game 6 and 7. You are using TWO games as the basis while I'm using the full sample.

And same for Kobe.. Was clearly better than Gasol throughout the entirety but you're honing in on one game out of 24.:oldlol:

I was just comparing Parker and Gasol

Listen carefully. We were only TALKING ABOUT GAMES 6 AND 7 IN THE FINALS.

That is it.

I was just curious to hear your thoughts on Parker...who you repeatedly propped and when it was all said and done wasn't as good as 2nd option Gasol overall in the playoffs in 10.

And that is the real double standard in reality. Gasol gets horribly diminished by Kobe stans...

[DMAVS41]

Guess that's thread.../

I don't even know what your are talking about. You can't just remove Gasol from the equation.

The Lakers were absolutely stacked in 09 relative to the competition. Saying otherwise is a ****ing joke.

And other than the Celtics...not sure who the hell was any good that they played in 2010.

If you want to say they weren't stacked outside of Gasol...then I'd agree, but that team was definitely stacked.

20/11/4 2nd options like Gasol don't grow on trees.

[DMAVS41]

you can't judge supporting cast based on one play. over the course of the 7 game series DUncan got much more help from his teammates than kobe had from his.

relying on a single game sample size? :rolleyes:

We were only talking about comparing Duncan's play in game 6 and 7 vs Kobe's play in game 7 of 2010.

What the **** are you people on? Go look at the original post that I commented on.

I swear you people are so retarded you can't even follow this;

Guy posts that Kobe would get hammered for playing the way Duncan did in game 6 and 7. I say no he wouldn't...and the notion that Duncan has somehow gotten a pass for losing games 6 and 7 is total BS to begin with as I've seen plenty of people call him out for game 6 2nd half and the missed layup.

And then simply said Duncan was better in both of those games than Kobe was in game 7 in 10. Which is just a ****ing fact. Kobe won his game because he get more help...not because he played better.

That is all I ever said.

Branslowski has some issue about trying to pretend the 09 Lakers weren't stacked and didn't have a great front line. Which I never even really said, but of course they were stacked.

And then it spun off into revisionist history about Kobe's game 7...and I've still not heard a response about Lebron's game 6 against the exact same celtics team in 2010 in which he had something like 27/19/10...and I know I heard everyone in this thread and many other Kobe stans call it empty stats. So there is another example of the double standard.

There is no double standard at all. The only double standard I've actually seen is that Kobe's teammates are more criticized than Duncan's...

[DMAVS41]

If you put Kobe in Duncan's position in this years playoffs, and it's Kobe's teamed who choked away game 6, and it was Kobe's team who didn't get it done in game 7, or it was Kobe who had a teammate break the finals 3pt record AND STILL LOST Kobe would be crucified.

Such a double standard. Kobe gets more hate for winning a game 7 than Duncan does for losing a game 7.

The double standard on this website is ridiculous.

This is the post...for all you morons that can't read...that started it all. Is he talking about the entire playoffs? Nope. Is he talking about anything about a stacked front line? Nope.

He calls it a double standard. I don't see it like that. Duncan played much better in game 6 and 7 than Kobe did...and he hasn't gotten a pass. This thread alone proves it. They guy played great and is still getting hate. So it makes no sense.

Again, the only double standard is that Kobe's teammates would get ****ing raped in the media if they choked like Duncan's did in games 6 and 7...we all know it.

And there it is. We were discussing games 6 and 7 for Duncan this year and comparing it to Kobe's game 7 in 10.

Do you morons follow that?

[BallsOut]

Listen carefully. We were only TALKING ABOUT GAMES 6 AND 7 IN THE FINALS.


Typical DMAVS41/ginobili cherry picking stats from one game to fit his agenda.
Kobe actually played well in both games despite poor shooting in game 7, 13 rebounds for an SG is incredible. But what can you say, haters gonna hate.

[secund2nun]

Only people who are brainwashed by the media and don't know jack about bball will actually think Kobe was better than players like Duncan, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing etc.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

Only people who are brainwashed by the media and don't know jack about bball will actually think Kobe was better than players like Duncan, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Ewing etc.
Duncan is debatable, but Kobe is clearly better than KG, Barkley, Robinson, and Ewing.

[DMAVS41]

Typical DMAVS41/ginobili cherry picking stats from one game to fit his agenda.
Kobe actually played well in both games despite poor shooting in game 7, 13 rebounds for an SG is incredible. But what can you say, haters gonna hate.

I was responding to a poster only posting about Duncan's games 6 and 7 and comparing it to Kobe's game 7 in 2010.

What the **** are you on? Or are you really this retarded?

It's not cherry picking to just respond to someone's claim.

The funny thing is...these moronic Kobe stans won't even admit that Duncan's game 7 was clearly better than Kobe's...ROFL

[secund2nun]

Duncan is debatable, but Kobe is clearly better than KG, Barkley, Robinson, and Ewing.

Not even close. All of those players are easily better than Kobe "can't get out of the first round even once in the 3 seasons I did not have the best front court in the NBA and I was in my prime" Bryant.

[branslowski]

So Gino...

You claimed Kobe was the 3rd best on his team in that game 7...I then showed the facts (23pts 15reb 10pts 4th quarter>>20pts 5reb 6pts 4th quarter) that he was actually the best on the floor. That you conceded and only responded with "Artest scored 6 in the 4th lol"...

Then you said our Frontline was stacked (and on other occasions you've said one of the most stacked All-time :facepalm ) I then showed you the bench/role player type weak numbers Odom/Bynum had that completely wipes that theory out of the water....You then conceded that "ok outside of Gasol they wasn't stacked" which is truthful.

Now ur on the whole "Gasol is a great 2nd option" In which you are completely right. This fits my whole point being it was Kobe/Gasol and role players...Not a "stacked" team, but a team with a All-time great and Allstar level second option. (Something CP3 had in David West).

And now you jump from all that to "Duncan had a better game 7 than Kobe".....

For a whole team to be stacked, there has to be more than 2 players putting up "Alltime great stacked" worthy numbers...In the Lakers case, only Kobe/Gasol put up stacked type numbers.

Basically all the arguments I had in this thread with you, I proved my point and you conceded.

As for your other points vs other posters: I can see wat ur trying to say...It isn't right that Duncans teammates gets a pass. They shouldn't. Just like Bynum and Odom dropping bench player numbers during those runs, we still won, but they shouldn't get a pass, nor should they stupidly get placed in the "Alltime stacked" placing that only slow ass retarded Kobe haters trying to discredit Bryant does.

You yell out double standards but ur the King of them.

[SoCalLakersFan1]

Not even close. All of those players are easily better than Kobe "can't get out of the first round even once in the 3 seasons I did not have the best front court in the NBA and I was in my prime" Bryant.
KG didn't accomplish much when he was in Minny. Barkley's teams weren't good until he joined a good Suns team. Robinson was great in the regular season but couldn't ring until a guy who stepped up in the playoffs (Duncan) arrived. Ewing always underachieved.

[Heavincent]

And Kobe wearing down? He wore down in 2011. He was actually hurt in 2010 against the Thunder and was very fortunate to have enough help to win that series. He played well in 12...although he abandoned any defense in the playoffs completely. And then this year he missed the playoffs.


lol at the revisionist history here. If you actually watched the 2010 Thunder series, you'd know that Kobe's defense on Westbrook was probably the biggest reason they won the series.

And you're really gonna punish Kobe for having a freak injury after he carried his team into the playoffs last year? Give me a break :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

So Gino...

You claimed Kobe was the 3rd best on his team in that game 7...I then showed the facts (23pts 15reb 10pts 4th quarter>>20pts 5reb 6pts 4th quarter) that he was actually the best on the floor. That you conceded and only responded with "Artest scored 6 in the 4th lol"...

Then you said our Frontline was stacked (and on other occasions you've said one of the most stacked All-time :facepalm ) I then showed you the bench/role player type weak numbers Odom/Bynum had that completely wipes that theory out of the water....You then conceded that "ok outside of Gasol they wasn't stacked" which is truthful.

Now ur on the whole "Gasol is a great 2nd option" In which you are completely right. This fits my whole point being it was Kobe/Gasol and role players...Not a "stacked" team, but a team with a All-time great and Allstar level second option. (Something CP3 had in David West).

And now you jump from all that to "Duncan had a better game 7 than Kobe".....

For a whole team to be stacked, there has to be more than 2 players putting up "Alltime great stacked" worthy numbers...In the Lakers case, only Kobe/Gasol put up stacked type numbers.

Basically all the arguments I had in this thread with you, I proved my point and you conceded.

As for your other points vs other posters: I can see wat ur trying to say...It isn't right that Duncans teammates gets a pass. They shouldn't. Just like Bynum and Odom dropping bench player numbers during those runs, we still won, but they shouldn't get a pass, nor should they stupidly get placed in the "Alltime stacked" placing that only slow ass retarded Kobe haters trying to discredit Bryant does.

You yell out double standards but ur the King of them.

I'll go as simple as possible.

1 - I don't think Kobe was better than Artest in that game. There is no proving either of wrong or right. I thought Artest was really good...and his defense was great. I think he had a handful of steals as well if I remember correctly. But if you want to go just on stats;

Kobe's game score was 9.9
Artest's game score was 13.0

So you haven't proven anything actually.

2. Gasol is part of the team...is he not? So I don't understand what you are arguing. Were the Lakers stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol? Of course not. But if you include the entire team...absolutely stacked and Gasol/Odom/Bynum absolutely constitute a stacked front line.

I have no idea why you would remove Kobe's best player from his supporting cast. But I think we agree here...

And I never said they were the most stacked team of all time. I said they were stacked relative to the competition and were clear favorites in every series they played in 09 and 10 other than the 10 Celtics series. Their margin for error was pretty big until the 10 finals actually...and I even listed Kobe's greatness as the number 1 reason for calling them stacked. Also, you can't just ignore Phil Jackson...that simply matters...and probably matters even more than I factor in to be honest. Also, you are selling Bynum short in 10. he averaged 9/7 in 24 minutes per game. Is that great? Hell no, but it's good and it mattered. That is pretty good production in limited minutes. Just so illustrate this...Tyson Chandler averaged 8/9 in 32 minutes. Obviously Chandler was better and helped on defense much more, but if I have to ****ing hear how Chandler was the reason the Mavs won...then acting like Bynum was a non factor in 2010 is just a joke. So please calm down and read for a change.

Here is the best way I can explain it to you. I don't think the Spurs were stacked last year. But remove Parker and replace him with 2010 Kobe? Absolutely stacked. Kobe factors into the situation for me and I think you have removed Kobe/Gasol from your situation...so I really feel like we are debating completely different things here and actually agree.

3. I don't know how to explain it any better...and it looks like you finally get it. The double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and are propped up constantly while we all know if Gasol performed like Parker in games 6 and 7 of a NBA finals...the media and this site would go nuts on him. Nobody, I mean nobody, outside me and a few others went hard on Parker...it didn't fit the narrative that the media and posters like tpols tried to push...so they just ignored it.

4. The talk about Duncan's game 6 and 7 was in response to a poster claiming that Duncan gets a free pass for losing. And I disagreed. He brought it up...not me. I was just responding to him. Nowhere did I say Duncan in 13 was better than Kobe in 10. Nowhere did I say Duncan was better in the finals in 13 than Kobe was in 10. All I said was that Kobe's teammates performed better in that game 7 than Duncan's did...FACT...and that Duncan performed better than Kobe did....FACT

And if we are using stats...this should illustrate it;

Kobe game score of 9.9
Duncan game score of 21.3

Now...I won't even go as far to say that Duncan was twice as good, but he clearly played better.

Oh...one final note on those game 7's;

Parker game score of 6.2
Gasol game score of 19.2

And the fact that Boston's defense was better makes Parker's game even worse than the stats...and Gasol's even better. Which I think is also true with Duncan and Kobe...and why I don't think the stats fully represent how each played (Duncan was not twice as good as Kobe..etc.)

[longtime lurker]

Lol Kobe the only player that could get hated on for actually winning :oldlol:

[tpols]

I'll go as simple as possible.

1 - I don't think Kobe was better than Artest in that game. There is no proving either of wrong or right. I thought Artest was really good...and his defense was great. I think he had a handful of steals as well if I remember correctly. But if you want to go just on stats;

Kobe's game score was 9.9
Artest's game score was 13.0

So you haven't proven anything actually.
Kobe saw all the double teams on offense.. everyone on both sides of the ball was shooting like shit. Artest was jacking up long jumpers all game and for the most part was bricking everything until a few timely shots he made in the fourth quarter.

Again.. Artest was in Shane Battier mode. Feeding off the work of others shooting long jumpers when the defense collapsed. Offense isnt just how you shot. Theres 20 some odd seconds where things happen before the shot goes up.. Dribbling passing running the offense. Artest never ran anything. He was either bulldozing his way into the paint bricking layups or throwing up long jumpers.. of which he shot 7-18 for the game. Better shooting than Kobe but did he create more offense? Kobe actually got to the line 8+ times and was the main distraction for the defense.

Comparing their defensive contributions.. they both played very good on that side of the ball, Metta a little better, but whatever defensive advantage he had was nullified by the fact that Kobe outrebounded him 15 to 5.





3. I don't know how to explain it any better...and it looks like you finally get it. The double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and are propped up constantly while we all know if Gasol performed like Parker in games 6 and 7 of a NBA finals...the media and this site would go nuts on him. Nobody, I mean nobody, outside me and a few others went hard on Parker...it didn't fit the narrative that the media and posters like tpols tried to push...so they just ignored it.
When are Parker or Manu propped up constantly? Have manu and parker ever been propped up to the extent Gasol/Odom/Bynum have? Nope.. not even close.

We never ever hear about the spurs having one of the best perimeter attacks in the entire league.. two great ballhandlers and some of the best lights out shooting of all time.

We never ever heard the term 'duncan was carried by his backcourt' even when the spurs went OFF against Golden State.. broke their own playoff record for threes made against memphis and then shattered the finals record for 3s in less games than it took the previous holder to do against miami

Never once was it mentioned that Duncan was carried..




4. The talk about Duncan's game 6 and 7 was in response to a poster claiming that Duncan gets a free pass for losing. And I disagreed. He brought it up...not me. I was just responding to him. Nowhere did I say Duncan in 13 was better than Kobe in 10. Nowhere did I say Duncan was better in the finals in 13 than Kobe was in 10. All I said was that Kobe's teammates performed better in that game 7 than Duncan's did...FACT...and that Duncan performed better than Kobe did....FACT
Youre missing the entire point. Its not just about comparing Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to Duncans in 2013. Thats not what the poster said.

The poster said that if Kobe had been in Duncans position and had good game 6s and game 7s but lost, he would still get a shitload of criticism. Which is true. Guy averaged 32/6/6 against Pheonix and those series are all held against him.

Just like Dirk has averaged ridiculous numbers in some series and lost, and those series are all held against him big time by a lot of people. He wouldve been known unfairly as a career choker if not for 2011.. and you know that as you argued for days and days to try and reverse that rep.

We saw Bron put up 25/10/10 type games and then kind of choke at the end of game 6 to put his team in a serious position to lose.. if that wouldve happened, we wouldve heard nonstop how bad bron is and how much of a loser he is. I probably wouldve been the first to say it:oldlol: (and unfairly)

And you can look up brons game 6 'gamescore' bet that shit was through the roof.. wouldnt have mattered, if he were to lose.

If the Heat were down 2 points under a minute left and Bron missed a sure layup to tie.. holy shit.:oldlol: Place would explode. Same with Kobe.. place would absolutely explode.



And the fact that Boston's defense was better makes Parker's game even worse than the stats...and Gasol's even better. Which I think is also true with Duncan and Kobe...and why I don't think the stats fully represent how each played (Duncan was not twice as good as Kobe..etc.)
No it doesnt.

Because Parker was being hounded by the best perimeter defense in the league and had their best defender, Bron, on him in all the important stretches.. while duncan was going up against a lollipop frontline not expected to create for his teammates in nearly the same fashion. One had tons of resistance and huge responsibility while the other had little responsibility and was facing the soft spot in the defense.

With Boston, Kobe was honed in on, and Pau had single coverage with a lone post defender all game. Parker was sitting at top of the key with the best perimeter defense in the world waiting for him.

Both Parker and Kobe were expected to create against tremendous pressure. Duncan and Pau were largely beneficiaries of their play and duncan at least had a softer frontline to go against than Pau did(which is why I said Pau was better than Duncan both being secoind options but Spurs were more well rounded outside of this first second option talk).

[KyleKong]

Interesting Stats by OP and TonyMontana.

Shaq and Duncan are top 5 or 6 GOATs.

Kobe is just a ball chucking rapist.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe saw all the double teams on offense.. everyone on both sides of the ball was shooting like shit. Artest was jacking up long jumpers all game and for the most part was bricking everything until a few timely shots he made in the fourth quarter.

Again.. Artest was in Shane Battier mode. Feeding off the work of others shooting long jumpers when the defense collapsed. Offense isnt just how you shot. Theres 20 some odd seconds where things happen before the shot goes up.. Dribbling passing running the offense. Artest never ran anything. He was either bulldozing his way into the paint bricking layups or throwing up long jumpers.. of which he shot 7-18 for the game. Better shooting than Kobe but did he create more offense? Kobe actually got to the line 8+ times and was the main distraction for the defense.

Comparing their defensive contributions.. they both played very good on that side of the ball, Metta a little better, but whatever defensive advantage he had was nullified by the fact that Kobe outrebounded him 15 to 5.




When are Parker or Manu propped up constantly? Have manu and parker ever been propped up to the extent Gasol/Odom/Bynum have? Nope.. not even close.

We never ever hear about the spurs having one of the best perimeter attacks in the entire league.. two great ballhandlers and some of the best lights out shooting of all time.

We never ever heard the term 'duncan was carried by his backcourt' even when the spurs went OFF against Golden State.. broke their own playoff record for threes made against memphis and then shattered the finals record for 3s in less games than it took the previous holder to do against miami

Never once was it mentioned that Duncan was carried..



Youre missing the entire point. Its not just about comparing Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to Duncans in 2013. Thats not what the poster said.

The poster said that if Kobe had been in Duncans position and had good game 6s and game 7s but lost, he would still get a shitload of criticism. Which is true. Guy averaged 32/6/6 against Pheonix and those series are all held against him.

Just like Dirk has averaged ridiculous numbers in some series and lost, and those series are all held against him big time by a lot of people. He wouldve been known unfairly as a career choker if not for 2011.. and you know that as you argued for days and days to try and reverse that rep.

We saw Bron put up 25/10/10 type games and then kind of choke at the end of game 6 to put his team in a serious position to lose.. if that wouldve happened, we wouldve heard nonstop how bad bron is and how much of a loser he is. I probably wouldve been the first to say it:oldlol: (and unfairly)

And you can look up brons game 6 'gamescore' bet that shit was through the roof.. wouldnt have mattered, if he were to lose.

If the Heat were down 2 points under a minute left and Bron missed a sure layup to tie.. holy shit.:oldlol: Place would explode. Same with Kobe.. place would absolutely explode.


No it doesnt.

Because Parker was being hounded by the best perimeter defense in the league and had their best defender, Bron, on him in all the important stretches.. while duncan was going up against a lollipop frontline not expected to create for his teammates in nearly the same fashion. One had tons of resistance and huge responsibility while the other had little responsibility and was facing the soft spot in the defense.

With Boston, Kobe was honed in on, and Pau had single coverage with a lone post defender all game. Parker was sitting at top of the key with the best perimeter defense in the world waiting for him.

Both Parker and Kobe were expected to create against tremendous pressure. Duncan and Pau were largely beneficiaries of their play and duncan at least had a softer frontline to go against than Pau did(which is why I said Pau was better than Duncan both being secoind options but Spurs were more well rounded outside of this first second option talk).

That is a big way of saying that Kobe is better than Artest and faces more attention. Of course. If you want to grade their performances on that curve...then I agree with you. But I think that is a very slippery slope argument and basically very difficult to ever fault guys like Dirk, Kobe, and Lebron...etc. because they have to carry such a huge burden at times. You are getting close to being one of those Lebron fans that claims his 11 finals wasn't bad. And the logic is the same as you are using...the entire Mavs were almost solely focused to stop Lebron and they didn't care about Wade or Bosh. Which is generally true...and even still Lebron was able to produce well statistically with a solid overall game. It's a BS argument...but your thinking makes it more than reasonable. Lebron faced at least 3 times as much attention as any other Heat player did. That is already built in when he talk about superstars...I don't like that line of thinking at all.

I also think you vastly under-rate Duncan's impact. Which is what has always truly made him great in my opinion. I agree Parker had a tougher matchup, but Parker isn't doing anything defensively while Duncan is anchoring the whole damn thing and making it work at an elite level.

You were propping up Parker hugely all playoffs...GTFO with this shit. And people in the media were calling Parker the 3rd best player in the league. There was a clear narrative trying to be created and it made no sense to people that have actually watched Parker play more than a handful of games. He's really good...really ****ing good, but he's never been a superstar type player. Ask Spurs fans...they know.

And I don't think Duncan has gotten a pass...but even that statement is absurd given how well he performed in the two biggest games of the year. But also...Duncan at age 37 and Kobe at age 31 are clearly held to different standards...and rightfully so.

To the point about missing the layup. First of all...Duncan was hammered on here, but that doesn't even really matter. Nobody has ever claimed and gone on and on about how clutch Duncan is/was. You seem to not understand how much fans play a role in this. Remember when I first posted here a few years ago? The entire talk was that Kobe was by far the most clutch player in the league...best on game winners...etc. That isn't fully gone yet...even though we've proven it completely false...you still see Kobe stans rant and rave about the clutch god Kobe. But now...it's brought up because Kobe has performed so poorly on game winning situations historically in the playoffs compared to others as he's now 7-28. So him missing is of course a bigger deal. I have explained this now a number of times.

If current Kobe played as well as Duncan did in a game 6 and 7 in the NBA finals....he'd be getting ****ing praised endlessly and his teammates, if they played like Parker, Manu, and Green...would be getting rocked.

So it works both ways.

[Anaximandro1]

Kobe's playoff stats before and after the rule change are dramatically different.

Kobe had an individual offensive rating below 110 and TS% at 52% from 2000 to 2004 despite never being the main focus of the defense.

On his own Kobe was probably a 50% TS type player with an offensive rating below 105... Iverson-esque.

So during his first 8 years at the Lakers,Kobe at his best was the second coming of Clyde Drexler,in terms of impact.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zbfti4sgKZk/Ud1PuE7bBYI/AAAAAAAACWo/A1Z1dTHltnE/s1600/8.jpg

The rule change boosted productivity of the perimeter players when Kobe took over the helm of the Lakers in 2005, therefore secondary players like Nash and Kobe became MVP candidates.

After 2007, everything came together for Kobe.The rules changed,the big men who dominated league had aged,Lebron and Wade were stuck on mediocre teams,Pau Gasol came to town and Kevin Garnett blew out his knee,putting an end to the Celtics chances of defending the title in 2009 (same thing happened to Duncan in 2000)...the NBA hype machine and the powerful Lakers organization completed the manufacturing process.

In order to win a title, your players need to use their possessions efficiently as well as regain possession of the ball through rebounding and steals. Per game numbers are skewed by the pace of the game,so they're inadequate.

The best players are high usage players who put up great tempo-free /per possession stats.Of course,advanced metrics are far from perfect because they're still distorted by the strengths and weaknesses of your team.However they're not biased towards/against a particular player.

For some odd reason, advanced stats are systematically biased against Kobe.

-Jordan/LeBron/Wade annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tQ4W4R7hLxg/UdzPXcf--yI/AAAAAAAACVc/7ehJB40w1P0/s1600/2.jpg


-Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.However,ORtg (points produced per 100 possessions) is close because Bryant took advantage of the rule changes.Kobe was a vastly inferior scorer prior to 2005.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GHVHOFAi_y8/UdzPXZUrsiI/AAAAAAAACVY/8XyKb_hGarQ/s1600/3.jpg

-Dirk/Barkley annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6TrUn1ckSUk/UdzQlsoAjmI/AAAAAAAACWQ/WY_UbozbiiY/s1600/6.jpg


-Robinson/Garnett/Karl Malone are in the same ballpark as Kobe, in terms of advanced stats.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qbWtNa8eO7w/UdzPX2m0ymI/AAAAAAAACV0/lB5OEmMu4_g/s1600/4.jpg


-Don't forget Kareem/Wilt/Magic/Bird/Erving/Oscar/West...at least Kobe is better than Iverson and Webber.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hSsVW72Vy08/Ud58apmAhyI/AAAAAAAACW4/1qtXlW8KVks/s1600/9.jpg


WS/48 -- an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes

PER -- a measure of per-minute production standardized such that the league average is 15

ORtg -- an estimate of points produced per 100 possessions.

DRtg -- an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.

TS% -- a measure of shooting effeciency that takes into account 2-point field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

USG% - an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

TRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

ORB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available offensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

DRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

AST% -- an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.

STL% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the floor.

BLK% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent two-point field goal attempts blocked by the player while he was on the floor.

[riseagainst]

Intersting post.

Agree with a lot,disagre with some of what you say.

Agree
-Shaq/Duncan by far the two best player of the past 15 years
-LeBron is third
-Kobe is in the Wade tier, literally the only thing seperating them is longevity and rings(the later being a result of him having the GOAT coach and GOAT frontcourts on his team)
-KGs soft offensive game prevents him from being Shaq/Duncan level. He is actually softer than Dirk offensively despite him being a loud black and Dirk a white euro.

Disagree
-Dirk is a level above Kobe/Wade/KG. Carried Dallas to 50+ wins every year despite never having a consistant second star. None of those other guys were winning playoff series without another HOFer.
-Jordan isn't the GOAT. Hes a really rich mans Kobe. Best scorer ever, but he still doesn't effect the game as much as bigger players that dominate on both ends like Shaq/Duncan/LeBron.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:





















:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

Kobe's TS% relative to league average has been about the same before and after the rule changes.

Stop making shit up.

[Optimus Prime]

PER and WS :facepalm

:kobe:

[riseagainst]

OP, you know that DRTG is dependent upon the team's defensive rating right? So bigs naturally have higher DRTGs than guards...