Top 50 players list voted by a 600+ NBA fans Facebook group

[OmniStrife]

Pretty accurate / unbiased imo...

http://i.imgur.com/uMAtEkm.jpg

[K Xerxes]

Good list.

How recent was this though? I don't imagine many people still have West over LeBron since his 2nd ring...

[OmniStrife]

Good list.

How recent was this though? I don't imagine many people still have West over LeBron since his 2nd ring...
It was concluded today... but the voting began prior to LeBron's 2nd ring and finished after...

[aj1987]

Lebron over West. Swap Wade and Isiah. Swap Shaq and Bird.

[Shade8780]

Swap Shaq and Bird.
No :lol

[kshutts1]

Don't remember which posters always mention it, but.... During their playing days, apparently it was quite... apparent... that Bird was better than Magic. Magic has only gained steam, so to speak, since retirement.

I believe that, but I didn't follow basketball then, so I'm not sure. I just see a lot of recency bias, same as on this board. That is the only real bias, though, lol.

[aj1987]

No :lol
Why not?

[Lebron23]

Lebron over west, hakeem, and Kobe.

[aj1987]

Lebron over Kobe.
Needs another ring and FMVP.

[kshutts1]

OH, and KG got hated on. Wow.

[ripthekik]

Legit.

[Doranku]

Pippen over DRob/Dirk. :eek:

[joeysms55]

Dwade is too low I would honestly make a case for him in top 15 with his stats and achievements. Lebron gotta be Top 10 or 11. West got no case on him. More rings, better stats in a lesser possession era, more of a winner, more mvp, and etc.... West is the most overrated player of all time IMO

[aj1987]

Dwade is too low I would honestly make a case for him in top 15 with his stats and achievements. Lebron gotta be Top 10 or 11. West got no case on him. More rings, better stats in a lesser possession era, more of a winner, more mvp, and etc.... West is the most overrated player of all time IMO
Top 15 is too high for Wade, right now. Another ring and 2-3 more seasons of 22-23/5/5 on 50% and he's top 15 for sure. Until then, he's between 18 and 22.

[treadster]

tmac with only 1 point :lol

[K Xerxes]

Pippen over DRob/Dirk. :eek:

Don't really see much of a problem there. I think Pippen has a legitimate argument for top 20.

I'd have DRob over him though.

[BlazerRed]

Pretty good list. Think KG should be a bit higher though.

[cos88]

decent list but cousy at 24 is embarassing as iverson at 30.

wade too low, lebron at 12 makes no sense, dirk also to low etc etc

[Pushxx]

Holy shit Dave Cowens is so insanely underrated.

[CeltsGarlic]

pippen too high

[Psileas]

If 600+ people voted, how come the total points of each player are so few?
The leaders should be in the 25,000+ range.

[Bibby4Three]

Maravich at 48? Joke.

[code green]

Cousy us the most overrated player in the history of the league, and this is coming from a lifelong Celtics fan with an affinity for point guards.

[fpliii]

If 600+ people voted, how come the total points of each player are so few?
The leaders should be in the 25,000+ range.

OT: Can you clear a message from your box? I need to send you something, and it says your box is full.

[Psileas]

OT: Can you clear a message from your box? I need to send you something, and it says your box is full.

Try to send it now.

(Sorry, but a capacity of 75 messages is way too low a number, so this happens all the time. Mods need to increase this available space at least x5).

[fpliii]

Try to send it now.

(Sorry, but a capacity of 75 messages is way too low a number, so this happens all the time. Mods need to increase this available space at least x5).

Thanks, sent.

[Psileas]

Thanks, sent.

Thanks a lot. I skimmed through what you sent and I have a couple of "corrections" to make. Since I'll be out for now, I'll respond later.

[fpliii]

Thanks a lot. I skimmed through what you sent and I have a couple of "corrections" to make. Since I'll be out for now, I'll respond later.

Sounds good, thanks. I agree about the storage space.

[Dionysus]

LeBron not at number 2? Kobe not at number 5?:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Don't really see much of a problem there. I think Pippen has a legitimate argument for top 20.

I'd have DRob over him though.

There is no reason to rank Pippen over a guy like Dirk. Completely different class of player.

[nightprowler10]

Surprisingly good list. That's not too far off my own top 10.

[NBASTATMAN]

List seems more of a popularity contest than a true top 50 list. Some guys are rated much higher than they should have been and others lower than they should have been..

TOP TEN WAS GOOD THOUGH EXCEPT FOR MAGIC AT THREE



Steve Nash and Iverson over Pat Ewing is laughable IMO... Since neither played defense.

[Scholar]

I can't argue with this list. I feel Kobe should be ranked higher, but honestly, most of the players from the top 4-10 are interchangeable imo.

Another small gripe I have is the fact that Karl Malone is below both Elgin Baylor and Charles Barkley. I think KG should've at least cracked the top 20 as well.

[Kblaze8855]

There is no reason to rank Pippen over a guy like Dirk. Completely different class of player.

No they arent. Even in Dirks MVP year people didnt have him ranked #1. Both in their primes in the same league they are probably ranked pretty close. Many would take Pippen for his defense. This poll shows about what id expect one taken at any point from here on. Pippen and Dirk pretty close with Pippen usually ahead.

All in their primes this year I imagine Lebron and Durant are still first team and Dirk and Pippen are second.

It would be close most of the time. The MVP is on Dirks side but no less than 4MVPs since 2000 were no better than Pippen either.

[DMAVS41]

No they arent. Even in Dirks MVP year people didnt have him ranked #1. Both in their primes in the same league they are probably ranked pretty close. Many would take Pippen for his defense. This poll shows about what id expect one taken at any point from here on. Pippen and Dirk pretty close with Pippen usually ahead.

All in their primes this year I imagine Lebron and Durant are still first team and Dirk and Pippen are second.

It would be close most of the time. The MVP is on Dirks side but no less than 4MVPs since 2000 were no better than Pippen either.

one was a championship first option that completely transformed one of the worst franchises in all of sports. won an mvp. a title as the best player. a finals mvp. averaged 26/10/3 on unreal scoring efficiency for his career in the playoffs. led his team to over 50 wins 11 straight times...etc.

the other was a great all around player that was a 2nd option roughly his entire career...

different class of player.

[iamgine]

one was a championship first option that completely transformed one of the worst franchises in all of sports. won an mvp. a title as the best player. a finals mvp. averaged 26/10/3 on unreal scoring efficiency for his career in the playoffs. led his team to over 50 wins 11 straight times...etc.

the other was a great all around player that was a 2nd option roughly his entire career...

different class of player.
Well Kevin Mchale was also 2nd option but he's on the 33rd spot. Imagine if he had won 6 championships (instead of 3) and had 7 All NBA selection (instead of 1), how much higher would he be...

BTW, can't your argument be used against Barkley? Barkley doesn't have any title, no finals mvp and doesn't always lead his team to good record but ranked far ahead of Dirk.

[DaSeba5]

Decent list, but Wade is too low. Plus I wouldn't put West over LeBron.

The top 10 is really good

[Kblaze8855]

Prime Dirk in a league with prime Pippen there is no way they are put on totally different levels. Just isnt.

Know the level both are on?

Just below the one with guys argued to be #1.

The rest is just....whatever.

Resume doesnt make Dave Cowens a totally different level of player from Scottie Pippen either. And he won 2 rings, an MVP, led a 68 win team and made I think 3 finals. Maybe 2. Either way....

A lot of people would rank Pippen over Dirk. As in...millions. Many of them perfectly qualified to make an informed decision.

You thinking its out of the question is just...you being a Mavs fan.

Me thinking Pippen and Dirk are on a similar level isnt a Bulls fan concept. Which is fairly obvious given the results of this poll and many others. Dirk rose after 2011.....to about where Pippen is ranked all time.

Totally different levels? Nah.

[97 bulls]

one was a championship first option that completely transformed one of the worst franchises in all of sports. won an mvp. a title as the best player. a finals mvp. averaged 26/10/3 on unreal scoring efficiency for his career in the playoffs. led his team to over 50 wins 11 straight times...etc.

the other was a great all around player that was a 2nd option roughly his entire career...

different class of player.
Or one only has one championship and MVP, while the other has 6 championships, and is considered the greatest perimeter defender ever. And thats throwing out circumstances.

Dirk has a great streak of being on 50 win teams, Pip has the fifth best win% of any player thats played in the NBA.

[DMAVS41]

Well Kevin Mchale was also 2nd option but he's on the 33rd spot. Imagine if he had won 6 championships (instead of 3) and had 7 All NBA selection (instead of 1), how much higher would he be...

BTW, can't your argument be used against Barkley? Barkley doesn't have any title, no finals mvp and doesn't always lead his team to good record but ranked far ahead of Dirk.

Well...yes! Barkley is too high.

And it's not just about accolades. It's about level of play. Barkley was better than Pippen. Just obvious to anyone that watched them play. Dirk was better also. Mchale is an interesting player, don't really think there is any reason to rank Pippen that much higher than him either.

Pippen just generally gets over-rated here.

For example...Wade is simply a better player than Pippen. It's really not debatable. Pippen's longevity is also not great. It took him a couple years to get good...and then he fell off noticeably after 99. So that is something like only 10 quality years in the league.

[DMAVS41]

Prime Dirk in a league with prime Pippen there is no way they are put on totally different levels. Just isnt.

Know the level both are on?

Just below the one with guys argued to be #1.

The rest is just....whatever.

Resume doesnt make Dave Cowens a totally different level of player from Scottie Pippen either. And he won 2 rings, an MVP, led a 68 win team and made I think 3 finals. Maybe 2. Either way....

A lot of people would rank Pippen over Dirk. As in...millions. Many of them perfectly qualified to make an informed decision.

You thinking its out of the question is just...you being a Mavs fan.

Me thinking Pippen and Dirk are on a similar level isnt a Bulls fan concept. Which is fairly obvious given the results of this poll and many others. Dirk rose after 2011.....to about where Pippen is ranked all time.

Totally different levels? Nah.

We are ranking them overall as players. Not just their primes. You are just changing the argument.

And it's not just resume. All the objective measures favor Dirk. But I didn't want to get too much into that unless you want to.

[DMAVS41]

Or one only has one championship and MVP, while the other has 6 championships, and is considered the greatest perimeter defender ever. And thats throwing out circumstances.

Dirk has a great streak of being on 50 win teams, Pip has the fifth best win% of any player thats played in the NBA.

And one has career playoff averages of 26/10/3 on 58.4% ts and is one of the most clutch players ever with a playoff run that trumps anything Pippen ever did.

The other is a career 18/8/5 on 52.4% ts playoff player that lucked out in playing with the GOAT...with really only 10 quality years in the league.

[97 bulls]

Well...yes! Barkley is too high.

And it's not just about accolades. It's about level of play. Barkley was better than Pippen. Just obvious to anyone that watched them play. Dirk was better also. Mchale is an interesting player, don't really think there is any reason to rank Pippen that much higher than him either.

Pippen just generally gets over-rated here.

For example...Wade is simply a better player than Pippen. It's really not debatable. Pippen's longevity is also not great. It took him a couple years to get good...and then he fell off noticeably after 99. So that is something like only 10 quality years in the league.
You just need to accept that Pippen is and should be on par with Dirk and Wade. Ive told you Nowitzki was a flavor if the month. This list proves my point

[Kblaze8855]

We are ranking them overall as players. Not just their primes. You are just changing the argument.

Who is "we"? Looks like the hundreds of people in the OP are closer to my way of thinking than yours.

But im changing the argument?

Id say "we" are most of the world. You are the one on some unusual shit.

Pippen over or near Dirk is a perfectly normal opinion to have. Doesnt take some special way of looking at it.

[DMAVS41]

Who is "we"? Looks like the hundreds of people in the OP are closer to my way of thinking than yours.

But im changing the argument?

Id say "we" are most of the world. You are the one on some unusual shit.

Pippen over or near Dirk is a perfectly normal opinion to have. Doesnt take some special way of looking at it.

What?

This wasn't a list based on "primes"...I am talking about you and me. Not other people.

Just because other people do something does not make it accurate or true. You have to be able to defend the position a bit better than that.

You have Dirk over Karl Malone...yet everyone ranked Malone much higher. So I guess you would just concede that argument because everyone else clearly disagrees with you? Makes no sense.

[DMAVS41]

You just need to accept that Pippen is and should be on par with Dirk and Wade. Ive told you Nowitzki was a flavor if the month. This list proves my point

Pippen was not a good enough player nor did he sustain a high level of play long enough to be on par with Dirk. I'm not saying Pippen isn't top 50, but he's definitely not deserving of being where he is on that list.

[97 bulls]

And one has career playoff averages of 26/10/3 on 58.4% ts and is one of the most clutch players ever with a playoff run that trumps anything Pippen ever did.

The other is a career 18/8/5 on 52.4% ts playoff player that lucked out in playing with the GOAT...with really only 10 quality years in the league.
Pippen was light years better defender than Nowitzki. Dont leave that out.

And I could also say that Nowitzki lucked up when he joined a franchise that had an owner that was totally committed to getting a championship. The Mavs have had one of the highest payrolls throughout Dirks career.

[iamgine]

Well...yes! Barkley is too high.

And it's not just about accolades. It's about level of play. Barkley was better than Pippen. Just obvious to anyone that watched them play. Dirk was better also. Mchale is an interesting player, don't really think there is any reason to rank Pippen that much higher than him either.

Pippen just generally gets over-rated here.

For example...Wade is simply a better player than Pippen. It's really not debatable. Pippen's longevity is also not great. It took him a couple years to get good...and then he fell off noticeably after 99. So that is something like only 10 quality years in the league.
I meant Mchale would be higher than Dirk if he had 6 titles and 7 All NBA. Would you agree with that even though he's only "2nd option"? At some point accolade matters or how else is Bob Cousy gonna make the list?

I'm not sure about the "not debatable" part. Pippen seems to have argument to be better than some great 1st options. For example, it seems no one is arguing the Pippen was better than Allen Iverson or George Gervin.

[DMAVS41]

Pippen was light years better defender than Nowitzki. Dont leave that out.

And I could also say that Nowitzki lucked up when he joined a franchise that had an owner that was totally committed to getting a championship. The Mavs have had one of the highest payrolls throughout Dirks career.

So what? Are you really going to compare circumstances? One played with the GOAT...rofl.

The difference is that Dirk's greatness isn't nearly as dependent on circumstances as Pippen's.

Dirk has played more quality years, has better numbers, won a mvp, won a title as the man, won a finals mvp, had a playoff run better than any Pippen ever had. sustained success as the man (11 straight seasons of 50 wins)...etc

Those things just trump Pippen's defense and all around play as 2nd banana to the GOAT

[Kblaze8855]

I never said(at the time since this was like 2008) Dirk had a better career than Karl Malone. I said id take Dirk over Karl because Dirk can close a game without a defensive breakdown and that the difference in their defense and rebounding wasnt as great as it was being made out.

Ive never said and never would say Dirk is on some whole other level than Malone.

Pippen vs Dirk....either way its close if not in Pippens favor. 6 rings as a #2 vs 1 as a #1? Did I miss when people starting putting Rick Barry on a whole other level than Pippen?

To me its close to Hondo vs like.....Kg, Dirk, or Wade.

Who ever it is you pick....I dont know how you decide its a whooooooooole other level. 8 rings is a hell of a career even as a #2. Also an elite player in your day and widely respected as an all time great? Not being an MVP or the unquestioned leader of a great team doesnt matter much.

Pippen had a career 90% of the HOF has to envy.

My son has to have Pippens career or Dirks.....give him Pippens. And we have talked many times about defense.

I lean towards the total game. Always have.

Many do.

You can argue....but its pretty much decided by the masses. Pippen is over Dirk or in the same area.

[DMAVS41]

I meant Mchale would be higher than Dirk if he had 6 titles and 7 All NBA. Would you agree with that even though he's only "2nd option"? At some point accolade matters or how else is Bob Cousy gonna make the list?

I'm not sure about the "not debatable" part. Pippen seems to have argument to be better than some great 1st options. For example, it seems no one is arguing the Pippen was better than Allen Iverson or George Gervin.

You seem to think my entire argument is that he was a 2nd option. It absolutely is not.

It's a combination of a lot of things....the 2nd option thing is just to bring some context to his titles.

It's more about his impact and lack of longevity.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was not a good enough player nor did he sustain a high level of play long enough to be on par with Dirk. I'm not saying Pippen isn't top 50, but he's definitely not deserving of being where he is on that list.
What do you mean he didnt sustain a high level of play? He was the best SF of the 90s thats basically ten years. The avg NBA career is roughly 4.

Put Jordan with Dirk and hes (Dirk) is a career second fiddle. You just cant be objective.

[iamgine]

So what? Are you really going to compare circumstances? One played with the GOAT...rofl.

The difference is that Dirk's greatness isn't nearly as dependent on circumstances as Pippen's.

Dirk has played more quality years, has better numbers, won a mvp, won a title as the man, won a finals mvp, had a playoff run better than any Pippen ever had. sustained success as the man (11 straight seasons of 50 wins)...etc

Those things just trump Pippen's defense and all around play as 2nd banana to the GOAT
Why though? :confusedshrug:

[mentallooser]

It is far from perfect, but I am amazingly surprised by the how not ridiculous that list is. I mean Facebook is about the dumbest place I have ever been, and that list really isn't that bad.

[DMAVS41]

I never said(at the time since this was like 2008) Dirk had a better career than Karl Malone. I said id take Dirk over Karl because Dirk can close a game without a defensive breakdown and that the difference in their defense and rebounding wasnt as great as it was being made out.

Ive never said and never would say Dirk is on some whole other level than Malone.

Pippen vs Dirk....either way its close if not in Pippens favor. 6 rings as a #2 vs 1 as a #1? Did I miss when people starting putting Rick Barry on a whole other level than Pippen?

To me its close to Hondo vs like.....Kg, Dirk, or Wade.

Who ever it is you pick....I dont know how you decide its a whooooooooole other level. 8 rings is a hell of a career even as a #2. Also an elite player in your day and widely respected as an all time great? Not being an MVP or the unquestioned leader of a great team doesnt matter much.

Pippen had a career 90% of the HOF has to envy.

My son has to have Pippens career or Dirks.....give him Pippens. And we have talked many times about defense.

I lean towards the total game. Always have.

Many do.

You can argue....but its pretty much decided by the masses. Pippen is over Dirk or in the same area.

I know you lean towards total game. I don't.

But that isn't even that relevant here because we can just talk about things that have happened.

If you want to compare them as players peak vs peak or prime vs prime...it's definitely closer than what their all time rankings should be.

But when ranking careers....longevity and numbers...along with accolades matter. You put things into context. I assume you'd take Pippen's career for sure over Barkley's as well then...but the masses have spoken and that proves you dead wrong based on your logic there. Just makes no sense to think that way.

Pippen simply did not play well enough or long enough to be ranked with true championship first options that sustained a high level of play for 12 plus years.

[NBASTATMAN]

You just need to accept that Pippen is and should be on par with Dirk and Wade. Ive told you Nowitzki was a flavor if the month. This list proves my point


This list is not the end all.. How the fcuk is Ewing not closer to pippen and mchale.. ? Ewing was better than both of these guys in his prime.. If Ewing played with Bird or Mj he would be rated top 20 imo...

[Kblaze8855]

Pippen was not a good enough player nor did he sustain a high level of play long enough to be on par with Dirk. I'm not saying Pippen isn't top 50, but he's definitely not deserving of being where he is on that list.



You in 2011:




Dirk, but I'm biased.

I actually rank them both in the same tier....around 25th all time.



So not only did Dirk get better Pippen got worse? Around 25 is fine in 2011 but he doesnt deserve 23 in 2013?

[Kblaze8855]

I know you lean towards total game. I don't.

But that isn't even that relevant here because we can just talk about things that have happened.

If you want to compare them as players peak vs peak or prime vs prime...it's definitely closer than what their all time rankings should be.

But when ranking careers....longevity and numbers...along with accolades matter. You put things into context. I assume you'd take Pippen's career for sure over Barkley's as well then...but the masses have spoken and that proves you dead wrong based on your logic there. Just makes no sense to think that way.

Pippen simply did not play well enough or long enough to be ranked with true championship first options that sustained a high level of play for 12 plus years.


If I were saying Pippen is on a whole other level than Barkley the fact that most qualified opinions would say otherwise would make me feel foolish yes....but im not.

And if he played well enough 2 years ago he played well enough now.

You would have put him alongside many title winning first options with long healthy careers then. But Dirk wins....so hes in that list...and I guess you shoot him Barry, Cowens, Frazier, Elvin Hayes, and so on up whole levels?

Or Just dirk?

[DMAVS41]

What do you mean he didnt sustain a high level of play? He was the best SF of the 90s thats basically ten years. The avg NBA career is roughly 4.

Put Jordan with Dirk and hes (Dirk) is a career second fiddle. You just cant be objective.

He played roughly 10 quality years in the NBA...and that might be generous with some years when he was hurt/ailing...especially in the playoffs.

That isn't great longevity.

Of course Dirk wouldn't be as good as Jordan. That isn't the point. It's about his level of play, impact, numbers, longevity...etc.

The reason Pippen is ranked where he is...is in large part because of playing with MJ and winning titles. Dirk is the opposite. He is where he is more based on what he produced and how he played. That is the difference you people can't get through your heads.

You bring up Mark Cuban and Dirk playing with high salary rosters as if it's even remotely comparable to playing with the GOAT. Dirk could have reproduced that type of success and impact on many different teams in the league at the time he played.

Pippen could not have reproduced his success with more than a couple other players in NBA history. Honestly...what other players could Pippen have been paired with as the 2nd banana and run off 6 rings? Kareem and Wilt maybe? Thats the point...comparing that to the likes of Dirk's help is just dishonest.

[DMAVS41]

You in 2011:



So not only did Dirk get better Pippen got worse? Around 25 is fine in 2011 but he doesnt deserve 23 in 2013?

Yes. Look at what Dirk did since then....

I don't care where Pippen is ranked...he could be anywhere...but there is no reason to rank him ahead of championship first options that have sustained success in the league longer than him...and blow him out of the water by most objective measures.

Dirk's title in 11 puts him on a different level than Pippen. As it should.

[Rondo]

Lebron over West. Swap Wade and Isiah. Swap Shaq and Bird.

Isiah > The Jaw.

[DMAVS41]

If I were saying Pippen is on a whole other level than Barkley the fact that most qualified opinions would say otherwise would make me feel foolish yes....but im not.

And if he played well enough 2 years ago he played well enough now.

You would have put him alongside many title winning first options with long healthy careers then. But Dirk wins....so hes in that list...and I guess you shoot him Barry, Cowens, Frazier, Elvin Hayes, and so on up whole levels?

Or Just dirk?

No...I'm asking you if you think Pippen should be ranked over Barkley. Which I just assume you have to say yes.

[Kblaze8855]

Yes. Look at what Dirk did since then....


So...Dirk goes up....Pippen stays where he is...but somehow he is no longer worthy of #23 which is around where you had him then.

How many people shot up exactly?

Lebron was already a 2 time MVP so he was probably already top 20.

Who else? Who else went from 50s into the top 20 to bump Pippen out.

Who else flew up since 2011 to take Pippen from where you put him to....surely not deserving of the same spot?

Or could it be you put Dirk somewhere in the 20s....realize Pippen is there too(according to you)...but now need to drop Pippen to make your claim they are on whole other levels make sense?

Or are you pretending that like...#18 and #23 are entirely different levels because our number system places emphasis on multiples of 10?

[Legends66NBA7]

Pretty accurate / unbiased imo...

Perhaps... but on further notice, some that seem out of place:

Erving over M.Malone ? Don't really see the case for it. I can only assume that "flashy play" got Erving over him. I would have Elgin Baylor over Erving too.

I would take the usually ranked PF's from 2-6 being Barkley, Garnett, Pettit, Nowitzki, and K.Malone... and rank them pretty close to one another. There's not much separating any of them.

I'm guessing Pippen and Cousy got "ring love"

Stockon over D.Robinson, Nowitzki, Wade, Hayes, Barry, Ewing, Iverson, Cowens, and so on.. ? Got "longevity love".

Reggie Miller over Ray Allen ?

There are some more, but these stuck out to me. But hey, no list can ever being 100% equal to another. It is what it is.

[tpols]

He played roughly 10 quality years in the NBA...and that might be generous with some years when he was hurt/ailing...especially in the playoffs.

That isn't great longevity.

Of course Dirk wouldn't be as good as Jordan. That isn't the point. It's about his level of play, impact, numbers, longevity...etc.

The reason Pippen is ranked where he is...is in large part because of playing with MJ and winning titles. Dirk is the opposite. He is where he is more based on what he produced and how he played. That is the difference you people can't get through your heads.

You bring up Mark Cuban and Dirk playing with high salary rosters as if it's even remotely comparable to playing with the GOAT. Dirk could have reproduced that type of success and impact on many different teams in the league at the time he played.

Pippen could not have reproduced his success with more than a couple other players in NBA history. Honestly...what other players could Pippen have been paired with as the 2nd banana and run off 6 rings? Kareem and Wilt maybe? Thats the point...comparing that to the likes of Dirk's help is just dishonest.
Pippen doesnt need 6 rings to be compared to Dirk though. He needs one, single ring.. and thats it.

Pippen led a team with BJ armstrong and Horace Grant as his next best two players to the second round and one minute away from beating an elite Knicks team.. you give him 10+years and eventually he gets over the hump and wins something.

[iamgine]

The problem lies in people think Barkley is better than Pippen.

But it's unclear whether Dirk is better than Pippen.

[Legends66NBA7]

Isiah > The Jaw.

Debatable, but I think Wade's the better overall player.


This list is not the end all.. How the fcuk is Ewing not closer to pippen and mchale.. ? Ewing was better than both of these guys in his prime..

Yeah, glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. I'm thinking every vote is geared differently.

[DMAVS41]

So...Dirk goes up....Pippen stays where he is...but somehow he is no longer worthy of #23 which is around where you had him then.

How many people shot up exactly?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/roll.gif
Lebron was already a 2 time MVP so he was probably already top 20.

Who else? Who else went from 50s into the top 20 to bump Pippen out.

Who else flew up since 2011 to take Pippen from where you put him to....surely not deserving of the same spot?

Or could it be you put Dirk somewhere in the 20s....realize Pippen is there too(according to you)...but now need to drop Pippen to make your claim they are on whole other levels make sense?

Or are you pretending that like...#18 and #23 are entirely different levels because our number system places emphasis on multiples of 10?

What are you talking about? I don't care where Pippen is ranked. He's just a tier behind championship first options with the kind of sustained success and longevity a guy like Dirk has had.

How many places that is on a ranking is up for debate. Just like there is pretty much a clear cut top 11 of all time now...West is usually in that 12th spot...or at least 10 years from now there will be a pretty clear top 11 unless Durant goes nuts.

Doesn't mean there isn't a gap between 11 and 12.

Do you really not get this? Shouldn't have to explain it...

[DMAVS41]

Pippen doesnt need 6 rings to be compared to Dirk though. He needs one, single ring.. and thats it.

Pippen led a team with BJ armstrong and Horace Grant as his next best two players to the second round and one minute away from beating an elite Knicks team.. you give him 10+years and eventually he gets over the hump and wins something.

Maybe he does...maybe he doesn't. He needs more than that in my opinion. This isn't about just rings. It's about his entire career...and too much of his ranking is based on his rings and not his level of play or longevity or impact.

I don't see many scenarios in which Dirk isn't a 26/10/3 high efficiency super clutch playoff player for his career. I see many...virtually any scenario other than the one he was in...in which Pippen is thought of as a much worse player historically than he is now.

[Kblaze8855]

No...I'm asking you if you think Pippen should be ranked over Barkley. Which I just assume you have to say yes.


I didnt say Pippen is clearly ranked over Dirk.

Almost every word I said of Dirk would apply to Barkley too. But I wasnt the one pretending the general opinion is wildly inaccurate to begin with.

Pippen, Dirk, and Barkley can be in any order without me making a big deal of it. Sure isnt wrong enough in any order to be all "There is no way to justify this".

Id say Barkley in his prime was more highly regarded than either of them though which I suspect factors into his ranking by most.

Barkley was being talked up as...on Jordans level. Beating Hakeem and MJ for MVPs and one or two votes from Magics before that.

Neither Dirk or Pippen I would say was quite as highly ranked as Barkley.

[Legends66NBA7]

Pippen led a team with BJ armstrong and Horace Grant as his next best two players to the second round and one minute away from beating an elite Knicks team.

Nowitzki has taken his teams far too with not the strongest help either. 06, 09, and 11 come to mind.

[DMAVS41]

I didnt say Pippen is clearly ranked over Dirk.

Almost every word I said of Dirk would apply to Barkley too. But I wasnt the one pretending the general opinion is wildly inaccurate to begin with.

Pippen, Dirk, and Barkley can be in any order without me making a big deal of it. Sure isnt wrong enough in any order to be all "There is no way to justify this".

Id say Barkley in his prime was more highly regarded than either of them though which I suspect factors into his ranking by most.

Barkley was being talked up as...on Jordans level. Beating Hakeem and MJ for MVPs and one or two votes from Magics before that.

Neither Dirk or Pippen I would say was quite as highly ranked as Barkley.

You just got done saying you'd take Pippen's career every time. So now I'm confused.

Also, me saying that Dirk is on a different level as a player does not mean that Dirk needs to be ranked 20 spots higher. I don't know why I keep having to explain this.

[Kblaze8855]

What are you talking about? I don't care where Pippen is ranked. He's just a tier behind championship first options with the kind of sustained success and longevity a guy like Dirk has had.

How many places that is on a ranking is up for debate. Just like there is pretty much a clear cut top 11 of all time now...West is usually in that 12th spot...or at least 10 years from now there will be a pretty clear top 11 unless Durant goes nuts.

Doesn't mean there isn't a gap between 11 and 12.

Do you really not get this? Shouldn't have to explain it...

Explain to me the big gap between whoever you put at #11 and Moses Malone or Jerry West.

I...cant see you doing a very good job of it.

There are barely gaps anywhere.

I remember when ISH did the top 100 I think there were people off the list who were all nba first team over guys in the top 30.

Short of the MJs/Kareems/Russells and guys like that in contention for #1?

Not many gaps. Sure as hell arent any big ones from the teens to the early 20s. You make a list guys at #40 will probably have destroyed guys at #20.

Point blank...

You say Pippen is in the 25 range then that he doesnt belong where he is when hes at #23....

It just doesnt add up unless you have reason to drop him. And not one spot. Many of them.

Just feels like changing levels because hes still too close to Dirk in the 25 range you had him to justify your new claim they arent close.

[Kblaze8855]

I would take Pippens career every time.

Id take his career every time over a lot of people hes not miles better than.

Hes a 6 time champion....with 6 well earned rings as a star.

I need to explain why id like to have such success?

[tpols]

Maybe he does...maybe he doesn't. He needs more than that in my opinion. This isn't about just rings. It's about his entire career...and too much of his ranking is based on his rings and not his level of play or longevity or impact.

I don't see many scenarios in which Dirk isn't a 26/10/3 high efficiency super clutch playoff player for his career. I see many...virtually any scenario other than the one he was in...in which Pippen is thought of as a much worse player historically than he is now.
Sorry but how was Pippen that far off in level of play and impact. He was the best defender in the league at points, in a time with some of the best defenders ever, he shut down offensive superstars in the playoffs and wreaked havoc on that end..

And could also give you 20 on good efficiency and 7-8 assists.

Dirk gives you 25ish on great efficiency, clutchness, and slightly above average rebounding with little to none quality big man defense..

Is it harder to find an elite offensive dynamo with below average impact on the other side of the floor, or an elite defensive dynamo with well above average production on the other side of the floor?

Dirk didnt win til he had the defensive system in place to mask his deficiencies.. Dirk needed a guy that won DPOY the very next year(when he wasnt even as good as he was on the mavs) + incredible shooting and a 18+ppg second option that was on fire.

Pippen would need a different type of help to win but would it be all that more difficult to do than what Dirk needed?

[DMAVS41]

Explain to me the big gap between whoever you put at #11 and Moses Malone or Jerry West.

I...cant see you doing a very good job of it.

There are barely gaps anywhere.

I remember when ISH did the top 100 I think there were people off the list who were all nba first team over guys in the top 30.

Short of the MJs/Kareems/Russells and guys like that in contention for #1?

Not many gaps. Sure as hell arent any big ones from the teens to the early 20s. You make a list guys at #40 will probably have destroyed guys at #20.

Point blank...

You say Pippen is in the 25 range then that he doesnt belong where he is when hes at #23....

It just doesnt add up unless you have reason to drop him. And not one spot. Many of them.

Just feels like changing levels because hes still too close to Dirk in the 25 range you had him to justify your new claim they arent close.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I currently rank Kobe or Lebron at 11...I think there is a huge gap between those two guys and Moses Malone (to use your example)...a huge one.

I wouldn't even for one second think about taking Moses over either of them...not for a second.

And right now Lebron/Kobe are ranked somewhere in that 11 range and Moses is 12 to 14.

So we will just have to agree to disagree on that...that gap is enormous in my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

Sorry but how was Pippen that far off in level of play and impact. He was the best defender in the league at points, in a time with some of the best defenders ever, he shut down offensive superstars in the playoffs and wreaked havoc on that end..

And could also give you 20 on good efficiency and 7-8 assists.

Dirk gives you 25ish on great efficiency, clutchness, and slightly above average rebounding with little to none quality big man defense..

Is it harder to find an elite offensive dynamo with below average impact on the other side of the floor, or an elite defensive dynamo with well above average production on the other side of the floor?

Dirk didnt win til he had the defensive system in place to mask his deficiencies.. Dirk needed a guy that won DPOY the very next year(when he wasnt even as good as he was on the mavs) + incredible shooting and a 18+ppg second option that was on fire.

Pippen would need a different type of help to win but would it be all that more difficult to do than what Dirk needed?

Well...yes. I think Pippen would need quite a bit more help (even if it's different help) to do what Dirk did in 11.

Please don't start down the road acting like the 11 Mavs were anything more than a subpar championship supporting cast. Dirk's help was worse than average in the playoffs that year...even with Terry "on fire" as you say...

[juju151111]

I get wat macs is saying. I can see Dirk winning six chips with Mj. I can't see Pip winning one chip with the 2011 mavs. I can't see Pip leading the 2006 Mavs to the finals over Tim Duncan led spurs. I don't see it at all with Pippen.

[tpols]

Well...yes. I think Pippen would need quite a bit more help (even if it's different help) to do what Dirk did in 11.

Please don't start down the road acting like the 11 Mavs were anything more than a subpar championship supporting cast. Dirk's help was worse than average in the playoffs that year...even with Terry "on fire" as you say...
I always advocate for dirk in that run.. he was better than Pippen ever was then.. because of the clutchness. But lets face it, that run was a one in a million. Without it, your argument doesnt have much to stand on.


Thing is in these player comparisons you always say its about overall impact and not defense + offense.. but it doesnt make sense because of this..

Its one thing if I say Dirk is a 5/10 on defense and Pippen is a 7/10, because then that difference could probably be easily made up by an above average defensive role player.. like a shane battier.

But Pippen was like a 9+/10 on defense. That just has to count for something because it's rare. Its not easily replaceable. And thats all that matters.

[branslowski]

DMavs41, I'm not dissin u or anything...but I notice that in ur debates (including ones me n u had in the past) you tend to jump and dodge obvious points that kill ur argument...and instead of admitting ur wrong once you get proven wrong on ur original gripe, u hop to another point to try and justify ur original point and then act like you don't understand wat the other poster is saying.

Truth.com

[DMAVS41]

:wtf:
I always advocate for dirk in that run.. he was better than Pippen ever was then.. because of the clutchness. But lets face it, that run was a one in a million. Without it, your argument doesnt have much to stand on.


Thing is in these player comparisons you always say its about overall impact and not defense + offense.. but it doesnt make sense because of this..

Its one thing if I say Dirk is a 5/10 on defense and Pippen is a 7/10, because then that difference could probably be easily made up by an above average defensive role player.. like a shane battier.

But Pippen was like a 9+/10 on defense. That just has to count for something because it's rare. Its not easily replaceable. And thats all that matters.


You know what. I agree. Without the 11 run...I'd rank them very close.

AS I DID! Kblaze even posted it. I had them around 25th all time together.

But 2011 elevates Dirk to a different tier in my opinion.

Of course it all matters. I'm not disputing that.

[juju151111]

I always advocate for dirk in that run.. he was better than Pippen ever was then.. because of the clutchness. But lets face it, that run was a one in a million. Without it, your argument doesnt have much to stand on.


Thing is in these player comparisons you always say its about overall impact and not defense + offense.. but it doesnt make sense because of this..

Its one thing if I say Dirk is a 5/10 on defense and Pippen is a 7/10, because then that difference could probably be easily made up by an above average defensive role player.. like a shane battier.

But Pippen was like a 9+/10 on defense. That just has to count for something because it's rare. Its not easily replaceable. And thats all that matters.
Pippen wouldn't lead the 2006 Mavs to the finals either.

[DMAVS41]

DMavs41, I'm not dissin u or anything...but I notice that in ur debates (including ones me n u had in the past) you tend to jump and dodge obvious points that kill ur argument...and instead of admitting ur wrong once you get proven wrong on ur original gripe, u hop to another point to try and justify ur original point and then act like you don't understand wat the other poster is saying.

Truth.com

I have no idea what this means. There has been absolutely no point made to kill my argument.

Someone arbitrarily saying there are not big gaps...means...well...nothing.

Especially when I think I gave a really good example of comparing the likes of Kobe or Lebron to Moses Malone. Malone might be ranked only 1 or 2 spots behind them, but that gap is big for me.

Can't explain it any better than that.

[Carbine]

I feel confident saying Dirk can lead a team better than Pippen. I don't believe Pippen had the offensive game to be a successful (win a title) clear #1 player.

[tpols]

Pippen wouldn't lead the 2006 Mavs to the finals either.
You have no idea what Pippen would or wouldnt do in these hypotheticals.

Dirk and Pippen are OPPOSITE players.. youre giving Pippen the help catered to a player with opposite strengths and weaknesses to what he himself possesses.

And acting like that fair?

[97 bulls]

@ Dmavs41

You keep saying Dirk had one of the greatest pkayoff runs ever etc. Id say Pippens 91 playoff run is at least on.par with Nowitzkis 11 run.

26/10/3 for Nowitzki. 22/9/7 for Pippen and he led the playoffs that year in Defensive Rating and Defensive win shares. He also had plenty of back stories, like overcomming the Pistons (I beg of you to watch the 91 ecf game 3) as well as his defense on Magic, his taking over game 5 (the closeout game vs the Lakers) and he scored the most points that game.

A poster said teams wouldve killed to get that kind of roduction from their first option/best player. Thats so true Pippen was a first option player playing alongside the greatest player ever.

[juju151111]

You have no idea what Pippen would or wouldnt do in these hypotheticals.

Dirk and Pippen are OPPOSITE players.. youre giving Pippen the help catered to a player with opposite strengths and weaknesses to what he himself possesses.

And acting like that fair?
I'm am talking about the performances Dirk had to put up to get to the finals. Against all time great Tim Duncan and his hof teammates. Pippen with the same amount of help isn't doing it. Dirk is a better playoff performer then Pippen:bowdown:

[Carbine]

@ Dmavs41

You keep saying Dirk had one of the greatest pkayoff runs ever etc. Id say Pippens 91 playoff run is at least on.par with Nowitzkis 11 run.

26/10/3 for Nowitzki. 22/9/7 for Pippen and he led the playoffs that year in Defensive Rating and Defensive win shares. He also had plenty of back stories, like overcomming the Pistons (I beg of you to watch the 91 ecf game 3) as well as his defense on Magic, his taking over game 5 (the closeout game vs the Lakers) and he scored the most points that game.

A poster said teams wouldve killed to get that kind of roduction from their first option/best player. Thats so true Pippen was a first option player playing alongside the greatest player ever.

:roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen doesnt need 6 rings to be compared to Dirk though. He needs one, single ring.. and thats it.

Pippen led a team with BJ armstrong and Horace Grant as his next best two players to the second round and one minute away from beating an elite Knicks team.. you give him 10+years and eventually he gets over the hump and wins something.


You forgot Kukoc who wasn't a star but was a solid player and was the go to guy at the end of games. Without Kukoc the Bulls get swept by the Knicks in 94.. Kukoc made at least 3-4 games winners that season alone.. Pippen was one helluva player but he was a beta.. He would HAVE never won without a player that could take and make the big shots..


Pippen being on par with Barkley is crazy IMO.. Any one who watched Barkley play before his back injury knows he was a superior player... Dirk and Pippen is a good argument though.. :rockon:

If Mchale is so high on this list how come Gasol isn't on the list? Their stats are pretty similar.. Pau being a much better passer as well.. Imagine Pau starting his career on the Lakers as Mchale did with the Celtics.. Pau playing with Kobe for both of their primes 7-10 years.. I know Mchale was a superior player but I think Foreign players just don't get ranked as high as they should. And again how the fcuk is Ewing at 40 under iverson and Nash and not in the vicinity of Pippen and Mchale.. He was better than both in his prime as well..


The list has the great players but their rankings are not all that great... :rockon:

For the record I don't think Pau deserves to be on the list but his stats and career are very similar to Mchales.. =

[DMAVS41]

You have no idea what Pippen would or wouldnt do in these hypotheticals.

Dirk and Pippen are OPPOSITE players.. youre giving Pippen the help catered to a player with opposite strengths and weaknesses to what he himself possesses.

And acting like that fair?

True.

And I've argued for Pippen a lot actually. I like Pippen...always have. I thought he and a guy like Mitch Richmond might have won a title together. So I'm not saying it's impossible.

My only point with that stuff was that Pippen's ranking is very dependent on his rings...and is just extremely unlikely to have similar success in virtually every other circumstance I could think of.

With Dirk...I just don't think his ranking is that dependent on his circumstances. Yea...he had quality teams in Dallas, but nothing amazing. He won a title with casts offs and role players...I'd imagine he'd at some point get help like that during a 12 year playoff run that saw him average 26/10/3 on what I think remains the best overall scoring efficiency in playoff history for any player averaging over 25 ppg. Durant might be higher now actually...not sure.

That was my point.

[97 bulls]

I feel confident saying Dirk can lead a team better than Pippen. I don't believe Pippen had the offensive game to be a successful (win a title) clear #1 player.
But he almost did it in 94. Give the 94 Bulls Spreewell or Richmond and they win the championship and Pippen wins MVP.

[DMAVS41]

@ Dmavs41

You keep saying Dirk had one of the greatest pkayoff runs ever etc. Id say Pippens 91 playoff run is at least on.par with Nowitzkis 11 run.

26/10/3 for Nowitzki. 22/9/7 for Pippen and he led the playoffs that year in Defensive Rating and Defensive win shares. He also had plenty of back stories, like overcomming the Pistons (I beg of you to watch the 91 ecf game 3) as well as his defense on Magic, his taking over game 5 (the closeout game vs the Lakers) and he scored the most points that game.

A poster said teams wouldve killed to get that kind of roduction from their first option/best player. Thats so true Pippen was a first option player playing alongside the greatest player ever.

Look. I have ranked Pippen around 25th all time. He was great. But I disagree...I don't think his 91 run is "at least on par"

Sorry...don't see it at all.

[tpols]

You forgot Kukoc who wasn't a star but was a solid player and was the go to guy at the end of games. Without Kukoc the Bulls get swept by the Knicks in 94.. Kukoc made at least 3-4 games winners that season alone.. Pippen was one helluva player but he was a beta.. He would HAVE never won without a player that could take and make the big shots..


Pippen being on par with Barkley is crazy IMO.. Any one who watched Barkley play before his back injury knows he was a superior player... Dirk and Pippen is a good argument though.. :rockon:

If Mchale is so high on this list how come Gasol isn't on the list? Their stats are pretty similar.. Pau being a much better passer as well.. Imagine Pau starting his career on the Lakers as Mchale did with the Celtics.. Pau playing with Kobe for both of their primes 7-10 years.. I know Mchale was a superior player but I think Foreign players just don't get ranked as high as they should. And again how the fcuk is Ewing at 40 under iverson and Nash and not in the vicinity of Pippen and Mchale.. He was better than both in his prime as well..


The list has the great players but their rankings are not all that great... :rockon:
Pau should be near McHale's range.

But it should be noted that Pau fell off hard after 3 years with LA and those 3 deep playoff runs. I dont think he was ever meant for the long haul. Too physically soft and mentally fragile. He just fell apart.

[juju151111]

@ Dmavs41

You keep saying Dirk had one of the greatest pkayoff runs ever etc. Id say Pippens 91 playoff run is at least on.par with Nowitzkis 11 run.

26/10/3 for Nowitzki. 22/9/7 for Pippen and he led the playoffs that year in Defensive Rating and Defensive win shares. He also had plenty of back stories, like overcomming the Pistons (I beg of you to watch the 91 ecf game 3) as well as his defense on Magic, his taking over game 5 (the closeout game vs the Lakers) and he scored the most points that game.

A poster said teams wouldve killed to get that kind of roduction from their first option/best player. Thats so true Pippen was a first option player playing alongside the greatest player ever.
Dirk 2011>>> Pip 91 Pip was a second option and was always treated has such till 94 where he bitched about a call where Toni saved them while he sat on the bench. He wasn't the primary defender on Magic. He guarded Magic fir a half primarily in gm 2 because MJ was tired from carrying so much of a load. Mj went back on Magic in gm 3 where pip took. Spurts on him. Dirk was way more clutch, the actual first option, and a overall better performance. Pippen had A prime Mj at his all time peak. The gameplan was about Mj not Pippen. Pistons said it themselves.

[Carbine]

But he almost did it in 94. Give the 94 Bulls Spreewell or Richmond and they win the championship and Pippen wins MVP.

Almost? He didn't get out of the second round.

Almost winning a title is this years Spurs. Boston when they took the Lakers to game 7 a few years ago.

Not making it out of the second round? That's a long ways from winning a title.

[tpols]

Dirk 2011>>> Pip 91 Pip was a second option and was always treated has such till 94 where he bitched about a call where Toni saved them while he sat on the bench. He wasn't the primary defender on Magic. He guarded Magic fir a half primarily in gm 2 because MJ was tired from carrying so much of a load. Mj went back on Magic in gm 3 where pip took. Spurts on him. Dirk was way more clutch, the actual first option, and a overall better performance. Pippen had A prime Mj at his all time peak. The gameplan was about Mj not Pippen. Pistons said it themselves.
What a lie.:oldlol:

Magic had been posting Jordan up and got him into foul trouble. Lighten the load lol.. why do MJ fans feel the need to lie about Pippen so much?

[juju151111]

But he almost did it in 94. Give the 94 Bulls Spreewell or Richmond and they win the championship and Pippen wins MVP.
They got kicked out of the second round. They have been how many players who team only made it to the second round. Pippen also showed poor leadership with his bench stunt. Pippen isnt beating Hakeem even if he had sprewell or richmond.

[juju151111]

What a lie.:oldlol:

Magic had been posting Jordan up and got him into foul trouble. Lighten the load lol.. why do MJ fans feel the need to lie about Pippen so much?
This is true Mj was getting tired. Pippen guarded him primarily in gm 2 second half. Fact

[KG215]

I'm really surprised by Kobe's ranking. Usually in these online fan polls, he get's badly overrated and voted in the top 5 due to the hundreds and thousands of kennethgriffiins that exist.

The whole list, actually, is almost as accurate as you're going to get for a fan poll. Maybe it was a legit invite only group of hardcore NBA fans?

[Carbine]

Guys, the Knicks almost won the 2012/2013 NBA Title.

[OmniStrife]

I'm really surprised by Kobe's ranking. Usually in these online fan polls, he get's badly overrated and voted in the top 5 due to the hundreds and thousands of kennethgriffiins that exist.

The whole list, actually, is almost as accurate as you're going to get for a fan poll. Maybe it was a legit invite only group of hardcore NBA fans?
It is. and most of the guys there are highly knowledgeable...

[juju151111]

Guys, the Knicks almost won the 2012/2013 NBA Title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2d1q0d8nDg and can you inform everyone what is being Saud at point 5:45 in this video

Pippen went to the second round wow lol. I guess the hawks almost won it too.

[NBASTATMAN]

But he almost did it in 94. Give the 94 Bulls Spreewell or Richmond and they win the championship and Pippen wins MVP.


:roll:

Richmond was a smart and talented ball player who could have helped that Bulls team.. Spreewell was a wild card and would have taken big shots away from Kukoc..

[Legends66NBA7]

Maybe it was a legit invite only group of hardcore NBA fans?

I don't understand the rankings of some of the players, if that's the case. Even if it's the 'hardcore', here are some of my criticisms:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8764582&postcount=64

About Bryant... Yeah, I've see him ranked as high as Top 2 a lot, as well, and those are not opinions by just a younger generation of people. A lot of adults I've seen online have had a similar opinion. I wouldn't even be surprised if LeBron James for example was also ranked Top 3.

[97 bulls]

Look. I have ranked Pippen around 25th all time. He was great. But I disagree...I don't think his 91 run is "at least on par"

Sorry...don't see it at all.
Tell me why Dirks was better? And mind you, Dirks finals stats arent that impressive. His game 6 was atrocious. Pippens closeout game vs the Lakers was amazing. 32/13/7/5. And this isnt factoring in the defensive side of the ball.

[imdaman99]

im not sure how MJ only has 1100 pts. thats assuming he only had around 20 1st place votes? do the math, 20 x 50 = 1000... in a panel of 600, how does MJ not have something like 400 1st place votes = 20,000 pts right there. maybe they meant 1st place = 5 pts?

[97 bulls]

This is true Mj was getting tired. Pippen guarded him primarily in gm 2 second half. Fact
Thats a lie. Pippen took over early in the second quarter.

[NBASTATMAN]

Pau should be near McHale's range.

But it should be noted that Pau fell off hard after 3 years with LA and those 3 deep playoff runs. I dont think he was ever meant for the long haul. Too physically soft and mentally fragile. He just fell apart.


You forget the guy played for his country a good amount. That play has also hurt Manu in his career.. Mchale didn't have to play those summers.. International play is tough basketball as well.. Pau broke his foot one year while playing for his country.. I would also like to point out that Mchale wasn't a 37 minute player liKE Gasol has been for most of his playing days..

[fpliii]

im not sure how MJ only has 1100 pts. thats assuming he only had around 20 1st place votes? do the math, 20 x 50 = 1000... in a panel of 600, how does MJ not have something like 400 1st place votes = 20,000 pts right there. maybe they meant 1st place = 5 pts?

I'm guessing not everyone in the group voted?

Since it seems everyone who received votes is listed (unless TMac was in a tie for 80th, with 1 vote) someone could add up the votes to get a total. The total should be something of the form x*(1+50)*(50/2)=1275x, where x is the total number of participants.

[juju151111]

Thats a lie. Pippen took over early in the second quarter.
Ok 2 n a half q. Lmao

[NBASTATMAN]

What a lie.:oldlol:

Magic had been posting Jordan up and got him into foul trouble. Lighten the load lol.. why do MJ fans feel the need to lie about Pippen so much?


Watch the series and I am sure that MJ guarded him more than Pippen did.. I just read a post a couple of days ago where someone claimed that Mj guarded MAGIC about 85 percent of the time.. Not sure if that is true but from what I remember Mj guarded him more than Pippen while putting up RIDONCULOUS NUMBERS..

[juju151111]

Watch the series and I am sure that MJ guarded him more than Pippen did.. I just read a post a couple of days ago where someone claimed that Mj guarded Pippen about 85 percent of the time.. Not sure if that is true but from what I remember Mj guarded him more than Pippen while putting up RIDONCULOUS NUMBERS..
I watched over gm 1 n 3 and Mj was guarding him the most those gms. Ill have to watch gm 2 soon. Mj was destroying the Lakers while guarding him. He was a freak of nature.

[Flash31]

im not sure how MJ only has 1100 pts. thats assuming he only had around 20 1st place votes? do the math, 20 x 50 = 1000... in a panel of 600, how does MJ not have something like 400 1st place votes = 20,000 pts right there. maybe they meant 1st place = 5 pts?


well only first second third counted
maybe
and Jordan wasnt num 1 on a lot of
peoples lists but was 2nd or 3rd
so hes first,which
explains Magic at third and how
some are ranked too low others too high

[fpliii]

I'm guessing not everyone in the group voted?

Since it seems everyone who received votes is listed (unless TMac was in a tie for 80th, with 1 vote) someone could add up the votes to get a total. The total should be something of the form x*(1+50)*(50/2)=1275x, where x is the total number of participants.

Just added up quickly. Got 27791, which isn't divisible by 1275. :confusedshrug:

[TheTenth]

Not accurate - no list is ever accurate. What's the criteria for the list other than popular opinion of the voters?

[Fudge]

Looks alright. I'd have Wade higher, and LeBron ahead of West and Hakeem.

[fpliii]

Not accurate - no list is ever accurate. What's the criteria for the list other than popular opinion of the voters?

To be fair, isn't that all any list is? The difference is how we restrict the voting base.

I don't do overall GOAT rankings anymore (I prefer to separate guys into tiers in different aspects of their games for no), but it's still fun to read them. Unusual lists especially, since you'll get some different criteria for each person.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not a bad list. would have 'Bron number 9 after the 2nd ring though. Maybe bump up Wade a bit too with his 3rd ring. Also Russell number 2. Magic lower than (or closer to) Bird. Looks like a lot of Laker fans voted on this.

[TheTenth]

To be fair, isn't that all any list is? The difference is how we restrict the voting base.

I don't do overall GOAT rankings anymore (I prefer to separate guys into tiers in different aspects of their games for no), but it's still fun to read them. Unusual lists especially, since you'll get some different criteria for each person.
That's exactly what I said! I find these lists obnoxious since there is no defined criteria for the rankings, no algorithms that objectively rank the players. I have my opinions too, but like everyone else's they are subject to flaws and bias. No person can escape their bias - at least that I have ever seen.

[DMV2]

Good list but I think most would agree LeBron has leaped into #9 on June 21, 2013.

[Nuff Said]

Damn my boy wade gets no love.

[aj1987]

Damn my boy wade gets no love.
That's because people are ****ing retarded!

[branslowski]

I just noticed Gasol aint on this list...:wtf:

Yet Bill Walton is? Wow...

[pauk]

I actually liked the list... not bad.... but then i saw West over Lebron? Hakeem/Kobe is debatable but... West? Jerry West? That alone destroys the list.... putting a guy with 0 mvps, 1 fmvp over a guy with 4 mvps & 2 fmvps and who was much more dominant/productive/had better peak (who had more of literally everything) etc. is just as putting Wade at #1 right over Jordan...... no difference....

That is by far the biggest mistake on that list...

[fpliii]

I just noticed Gasol aint on this list...:wtf:

Yet Bill Walton is? Wow...

Huh?

[NBASTATMAN]

The list is garbage.. Drexler actually played defense and so did ewing yet they are both behind Allen Iverson and Nash who never defended anyone. Mchale was a great player but how is he so high on the list over Ewing.. Pau's stats are better than Mchales yet he doesn't show up anywhere.. Where is Tony Parker? How the hell is Rodman in the top 50? His playoff numbers always went down.. Drob couldn't defend Hakeem and Rodman next to him was no help either...

[kennethgriffin]

i find it funny how "impacting the league" plays into peoples reasonings for putting guys like magic and bird over kobe. then the same people rank tim duncan ahead of him


duncan barely impacted or left a minimal imprint texas let alone the world like kobe did

[aj1987]

Huh?
Gasol has longevity over Walton? Not sure though.

Anyways, you're a Wade "stan" and you don't have a problem with him being ranked so low? :D

[aj1987]

duncan barely impacted or left a minimal imprint texas let alone the world like kobe did


San Antonio has won over 60% of their games pre season, since they drafted Duncan. Perennial contender. He had to have some sort of impact, right?

[kennethgriffin]

bill walton is overrated

he has a season mvp and finals mvp. but his career is really lacking


he was like the roger maris of the nba

that guy broke babe ruths record of 60 home runs and had the record till mark mcgwire broke it.

maris was also an mvp. actually he won 2 mvps..

but he only made 4 allstar games

he underachieved and is still not in the hall of fame.

bill walton also underachieved big time and only made 2 allstar games, only made 2 total all nba teams


but this is in no way me saying gasol is better... both bill and pau are nowhere near top 50 players all time.

[kennethgriffin]

San Antonio has won over 60% of their games pre season, since they drafted Duncan. Perennial contender. He had to have some sort of impact, right?


i think you're confusing "impact on the nba" with "impact on winning"

[pauk]

West not only has MUCH less of everything than Lebron (accolades, numbers, peak, talent, you name it) but he also never even led a team to a championship like Lebron did (better yet two of those)... his only championship came when he was out of his prime siding with Wilt / Baylor / Goodrich / Hairston, where Gail Goodrich was the top scorer and Wilt was their most impactful player and even won that FMVP....

West has no business in any shape or form to be above Lebron... i dont care if you hate Lebron, place him at #157 if you wish... but West should be then #158 (or further back actually, as i think Oscar/Moses/Julius were all better and more accomplished than West)

Would love to see one guy reasonably & factually explain a case to why West / Lebron should even be debatable... better yet come to the conclusion of ranking him over Lebron in any damn way....

[EnoughSaid]

Here we go with kennethgriffin preaching how Kobe is above guys like Shaq, Tim Duncan, Bird, Wilt, etc. :roll:

But seriously Wade is a top 25 player. One of the greatest seasons for a SG ever (2009), an all-time great Finals performance in 2006, which I think is a Top 10 all-time series performance, 3 rings, 1 Finals MVP's. He was also robbed of some All-NBA Offensive and Defensive 1st teams, which would only help his case.

[kennethgriffin]

West not only has MUCH less of everything than Lebron (accolades, numbers, peak, talent, you name it) but he also never even led a team to a championship like Lebron did (better yet two of those)... his only championship came when he was out of his prime siding with Wilt / Baylor / Goodrich / Hairston, where Gail Goodrich was the top scorer and Wilt was their most impactful player and even won that FMVP....

West has no business in any shape or form to be above Lebron... i dont care if you hate Lebron, place him at #157 if you wish... but West should be then #158 (or further back actually, as i think Oscar/Moses/Julius were all better and more accomplished than West)

Would love to see one guy reasonably & factually explain a case to why West / Lebron should even be debatable... better yet come to the conclusion of ranking him over Lebron in any damn way....

i like that they picked west over lebron. it makes the duncan over kobe thing bearable

i'd hate to see a collection of people who actually knew what they were talking about put kobe behind that boring a** choker


bron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jerry west

and its not even close :lol

[kennethgriffin]

Here we go with kennethgriffin preaching how Kobe is above guys like Shaq, Tim Duncan, Bird, Wilt, etc. :roll:

But seriously Wade is a top 25 player. One of the greatest seasons for a SG ever (2009), an all-time great Finals performance in 2006, which I think is a Top 10 all-time series performance, 3 rings, 1 Finals MVP's. He was also robbed of some All-NBA Offensive and Defensive 1st teams, which would only help his case.


he is above those 4 guys


more rings
more 1st team nba's
more 1st team defense's
more allstar games
more points
more all decade awards*

( *unlike wilt, shaq, bird and duncan. kobe was atleast the best of his generation )

60's - bill
70's - kareem
80's - magic
90's - jordan
00's - kobe


tnt player of the decade - kobe bryant
sporting news player of the decade - kobe bryant
sports illustrated player of the decade - kobe bryant
dime magazine player of the decade - kobe bryant


and this is ultra impressive due to there being 4 guys from the 2000's being in the top 10 all time ( more than any other generation

[aj1987]

i think you're confusing "impact on the nba" with "impact on winning"
According to you, being famous>>>>>>>Winning?

[Nastradamus]

Damn, solid list.

[Legends66NBA7]

According to you, being famous>>>>>>>Winning?

That would explain Erving over M.Malone.

[K Xerxes]

i think you're confusing "impact on the nba" with "impact on winning"

Look, I don't care about impact on anything except on the court.

Yao Ming isn't higher than Tim Duncan on the all time list. How much impact has Jeremy Lin had on the NBA - and sporting world - compared to other 'better' basketball players? Probably more than some. Still don't give a shit about him.

No one cares how many unofficial phony player of the decades Kobe has won, or how many jerseys he's sold.

All time lists are - or should - be based on how good you are and how conducive you are to your team winning. That is the ultimate purpose of playing in basketball, where it becomes apparent that Kobe is clearly inferior to the likes of MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird. AT LEAST.

Stop trying to look for ways for Kobe to be higher on the all time list. It's embarrassing and your agenda has already been long since exposed. Stick to the basketball court.

[aj1987]

That would explain Erving over M.Malone.
I literally can't think of a single reason as to why Malone would be rated below Erving.

@K Xerxes, I think we all should just ignore Mr. Kenneth. Any sane person would pick impact on winning over anything else.

[EnoughSaid]

he is above those 4 guys


more rings
more 1st team nba's
more 1st team defense's
more allstar games
more points
more all decade awards*

( *unlike wilt, shaq, bird and duncan. kobe was atleast the best of his generation )

60's - bill
70's - kareem
80's - magic
90's - jordan
00's - kobe


tnt player of the decade - kobe bryant
sporting news player of the decade - kobe bryant
sports illustrated player of the decade - kobe bryant
dime magazine player of the decade - kobe bryant


and this is ultra impressive due to there being 4 guys from the 2000's being in the top 10 all time ( more than any other generation

You say that 00's shit all the time, and I think that's kind of pushing it.

2000-2002, Lakers dominate, SHAQ dominates specifically, killing the league and winning all 3 FMVP's. Not saying Kobe wasn't an important part of that run, but Shaq overshadowed him and was clearly the best player on the team.

2002-2003, Duncan wins back to back MVP's, and Spurs win their second title. Duncan is cementing himself as the best player in the league and his Spurs are also backing him up.

2004, KG wins the MVP, and the LA Lakers lose in the NBA Finals, where Kobe Bean Bryant has a terrible showing.

2005, Lakers miss the Playoffs, their team kind of getting dismantled with Payton, Fox traded, and Fisher opting out.

2006, Kobe has a GREAT season, but once again the Lakers have no Playoff success going down to Phoenix 4-3 after being up 3-1.

2007, Kobe has another great season, but the Lakers once again fail to have any playoff success after losing to the Suns in 5 games.

2008, this is where I can see your Kobe-2000's agenda taking shape. Lakers rebuild, Kobe wins the MVP, and they make the Finals, but they lose.

2009, Lakers win the NBA Title, Kobe gets the FMVP.

2010, Lakers win the NBA Title, Kobe gets the FMVP.

So when you talk about a DOMINANT player, a player that was the best for a 10 year span. I think you have to talk about how they were always the talk of the league and how they prevailed in certain assets.

MVP's in the decade:
00 - Shaq
01 - Iverson
02 - Duncan
03 - Duncan
04 - KG
05 - Nash
06 - Nash
07 - Dirk
08 - Kobe
09 - LeBron
10 - LeBron

So when you just look at MVP's, Championships, and Finals MVP's, aside from all that All-NBA crap, Kobe's impact on the decade is NOT CLOSE to what MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem and Wilt/Russell did.

2 Finals MVP's, 1 MVP. Come on now. :facepalm

[lilblingy]

Top 15 looks good to me. only thing is i would move Lebron to #10 behind Kobe. At least we know the vast majority does not think Kobe or Lebron is top 5 all time like some idiots here on ish would like you to believe.

[EnoughSaid]

Top 15 looks good to me. only thing is i would move Lebron to #10 behind Kobe. At least we know the vast majority does not think Kobe or Lebron is top 5 all time like some idiots here on ish would like you to believe.

There is like nobody who has LeBron Top 5 All-Time. But Kobe fans on the other hand have Kobe as BETTER than Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, :roll:

[Vienceslav]

Best way you can arrange the top 10 IMO.
After that it gets too close to call.

[lilblingy]

There is like nobody who has LeBron Top 5 All-Time. But Kobe fans on the other hand have Kobe as BETTER than Bird, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, :roll:

So when some idiots here say that Lebron is >>> Jordan what are they saying? by the way i would not make too big a deal out of someone saying Kobe had a greater career than Shaq or Duncan. I might not agree with it but i cant act like there is no argument at all.

[fpliii]

I literally can't think of a single reason as to why Malone would be rated below Erving.

@K Xerxes, I think we all should just ignore Mr. Kenneth. Any sane person would pick impact on winning over anything else.

Depends on if you count his ABA seasons (we count Kareem's when the leagues were split, so this makes sense to me). If not, Moses is likely ahead of him.

[2010splash]

Horrible list. Kobe and Hakeem over LeBron? :roll:

Bird over LeBron!?!?! :roll:

And I literally burst out laughing when I saw West ranked ahead of LeBron.

How do these idiots even come up with these rankings?

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. Hakeem/Kobe
11. Kobe/Hakeem

12. - 50. = the rest.

[lilblingy]

Horrible list. Kobe and Hakeem over LeBron? :roll:

Bird over LeBron!?!?! :roll:

And I literally burst out laughing when I saw West ranked ahead of LeBron.

How do these idiots even come up with these rankings?

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Bird
10. Hakeem/Kobe
11. Kobe/Hakeem

12. - 50. = the rest.

There's my proof right there. Lebron top 5:facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

You say that 00's shit all the time, and I think that's kind of pushing it.

2000-2002, Lakers dominate, SHAQ dominates specifically, killing the league and winning all 3 FMVP's. Not saying Kobe wasn't an important part of that run, but Shaq overshadowed him and was clearly the best player on the team.

2002-2003, Duncan wins back to back MVP's, and Spurs win their second title. Duncan is cementing himself as the best player in the league and his Spurs are also backing him up.

2004, KG wins the MVP, and the LA Lakers lose in the NBA Finals, where Kobe Bean Bryant has a terrible showing.

2005, Lakers miss the Playoffs, their team kind of getting dismantled with Payton, Fox traded, and Fisher opting out.

2006, Kobe has a GREAT season, but once again the Lakers have no Playoff success going down to Phoenix 4-3 after being up 3-1.

2007, Kobe has another great season, but the Lakers once again fail to have any playoff success after losing to the Suns in 5 games.

2008, this is where I can see your Kobe-2000's agenda taking shape. Lakers rebuild, Kobe wins the MVP, and they make the Finals, but they lose.

2009, Lakers win the NBA Title, Kobe gets the FMVP.

2010, Lakers win the NBA Title, Kobe gets the FMVP.

So when you talk about a DOMINANT player, a player that was the best for a 10 year span. I think you have to talk about how they were always the talk of the league and how they prevailed in certain assets.

MVP's in the decade:
00 - Shaq
01 - Iverson
02 - Duncan
03 - Duncan
04 - KG
05 - Nash
06 - Nash
07 - Dirk
08 - Kobe
09 - LeBron
10 - LeBron

So when you just look at MVP's, Championships, and Finals MVP's, aside from all that All-NBA crap, Kobe's impact on the decade is NOT CLOSE to what MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem and Wilt/Russell did.

2 Finals MVP's, 1 MVP. Come on now. :facepalm


your right. tim duncan has more mvps. it doesnt matter than kobe has the better overall resume and more titles

mvps > all


the top players all time are


#1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6
#2 Michael Jordan 5
#3 Bill Russell 5
#4 Wilt Chamberlain 4
#5 LeBron James 4
#6 Larry Bird 3
#7 Magic Johnson 3
#8 Moses Malone 3
#9 Tim Duncan 2
#10 Karl Malone 2
#11 Steve Nash 2
#12 Bob Pettit 2



lol@ kobe, shaq, hakeem, oscar ... those bums can't compete with nash :P


derrick rose has as many mvps as these bums


:lol

[Legends66NBA7]

There is like nobody who has LeBron Top 5 All-Time.

Tell that to 2010splash, who continues to spam his whole "James is Top 2 and it's not even close" theme in every thread.

[kennethgriffin]

Look, I don't care about impact on anything except on the court.

Yao Ming isn't higher than Tim Duncan on the all time list. How much impact has Jeremy Lin had on the NBA - and sporting world - compared to other 'better' basketball players? Probably more than some. Still don't give a shit about him.

No one cares how many unofficial phony player of the decades Kobe has won, or how many jerseys he's sold.

All time lists are - or should - be based on how good you are and how conducive you are to your team winning. That is the ultimate purpose of playing in basketball, where it becomes apparent that Kobe is clearly inferior to the likes of MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird. AT LEAST.

Stop trying to look for ways for Kobe to be higher on the all time list. It's embarrassing and your agenda has already been long since exposed. Stick to the basketball court.


its about impact on the court. but when kobe is compared with magic/bird types. people say "but larry and magic changed the game. they made a way bigger impact off the court. they have to be ranked higher


its the tie breaker people use to beat kobe fans lol

but us kobe fans cant use that same argument as a case for a tie breaker between kobe and duncan. even though kobe has the on court resume stats/records/rings wise over duncan too


thats my point


kobe is a legend on and off the court. duncan is just a great ball player who will be forgotten

[Legends66NBA7]

What the ....

James is now only Top 5 ? :oldlol:

What happened to the Top 2 stuff where it wasn't even close and it's time to accept James, blah blah blah... *insert redundant statement*.

[KyleKong]

T-Mac with 1 point and CP3 with 4? Dayyummm

[EnoughSaid]

Tell that to 2010splash, who continues to spam his whole "James is Top 2 and it's not even close" theme in every thread.

Well that's like 1 dude. Even Pauk aka LION ESSAY MAN doesn't have LeBron top 5.

[K Xerxes]

its about impact on the court. but when kobe is compared with magic/bird types. people say "but larry and magic changed the game. they made a way bigger impact off the court. they have to be ranked higher

Larry and Magic are ranked higher because they were better players. That's all there is to it.

Just because Duncan remained loyal to a small market team for his whole career, and has chosen never to be involved in off the court controversy, does not mean that that should be held against him in all time rankings. If you want to make an argument that Kobe should be above him, do it because he's a better player in your estimation, not because he's had more media attention or has won random player of the decade awards.

[Legends66NBA7]

Well that's like 1 dude. Even Pauk aka LION ESSAY MAN doesn't have LeBron top 5.

True, but I thought you said how nobody has him and I thought about that guy.

Anyways, he's just some troll alt account.

[Unbiased_one]

its about impact on the court. but when kobe is compared with magic/bird types. people say "but larry and magic changed the game. they made a way bigger impact off the court. they have to be ranked higher


its the tie breaker people use to beat kobe fans lol

but us kobe fans cant use that same argument as a case for a tie breaker between kobe and duncan. even though kobe has the on court resume stats/records/rings wise over duncan too


thats my point


kobe is a legend on and off the court. duncan is just a great ball player who will be forgotten

Come now...no-one actually seriously compares the likes of magic and bird with Kobe...there is literally no need for any sort of tiebreaker (and fame is irrelevant to all-time rank anyway)