The Curious Overrating of Dirk Nowitzki's Finals Performance

[Psycho]

It has come to my attention that Dirk Nowitzki's 2010-11 finals performance is considered by many to be one of the performances of all time in which Dirk single-handedly defeated the evil Big Three while espousing the correct way of playing basketball (sticking with your team, getting it done on your own, being clutch under pressure etc). I am here to point out that this narrative, whether true or false has led to Dirk's finals being overrated by the teeming, ignorant masses. Here is the proof.

Dirk in Playoffs excluding the Finals (2010-11)
28.4 PPG/7.5 RPG/2.7 APG/3.2 TOV on .517/.516/.929 w/ 9.2 FTA per game

Dirk in the Finals (2010-11)
26.0 PPG/9.7 RPG/2.0 APG/2.8 TOV on .416/.368/.974 w/ 7.7 FTA per game

As clearly evidenced by the above data, Dirk regressed by a great deal going into the finals just like Lebron. For a player who is revered by all as clutch, to the informed analyst, it is clear that Dirk actually shrunk under the spotlight, just as Lebron James did. He made some big shots, yes, but just about every star player does that. And Dirk made the majority of his clutch shots before the playoffs, which created the buzz for how "clutch" he was. When, in the finals, Dirk played a mediocre brand of basketball, the Dirk vs the Evil Heat narrative led to people remembering a couple of shots he made in the fourth quarter and forgetting that he was not actually spectacular for the whole of the series. To further demonstrate this, compare Dirk's stats to those of Lebron from this past finals, who everyone acknowledges was a mediocre performance from Lebron.

Lebron James in the Finals (2012-13)
25.3 PPG/10.9 RPG/7.0 APG/2.6 TOV on .447/.353/.795 w/ 5.6 FTA per game

Lebron in his mediocre Finals was superior to Dirk in his Legendary Finals in every aspect (excluding Free Throws) including defense by a large margin. Dirk in the Finals regressed by a large margin from his previous play in the playoffs, just like LBJ has done countless times. Yet, Dirk receives none of the vitriolic criticism James deals with on a daily basis and is instead lauded as a hero.

If Dirk Nowitzki was so GODLY and CLUTCH in his playoff run, then why did he shrink under the lights of the Finals like mental midget Lebron?

I hope you enjoyed my lesson today on the true performance of Dirk Nowitzki in the 2010-11 NBA Finals, and that his supposedly ethereal performance was, minus the emotional bias of the casual fan, quite mediocre indeed.

This has been Psycho, signing off.

[fpliii]

I think Wade was better overall in the Finals, but Dirk beasted in 4th quarters:

series:

Dirk: 26.0/9.7/2.0/0.7/0.7 with 2.8 t/o on 53.7 TS% (.416 .368 .978)
Terry: 18.0/2.0/3.2/1.3/0.0 with 1.3 t/o on 60.5 TS% (.494 .393 .750)
Chandler: 9.7/8.8/0.7/1.2/1.2 with 0.5 t/o on 62.9 TS% (.594 --- .625)

Wade: 26.5/7.0/5.2/1.5/1.5 with 2.5 t/o on 61.4 TS% (.546 .304 .694)
Bosh: 18.5/7.3/1.0/0.3/0.5 with 2.2 t/o on 49.6 TS% (.413 .000 .778)
LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)

4th quarters:

Dirk: 62/19/4/3/0 with 7 t/o on 68.0 TS% (18-35 2-6 24-24)
Terry: 30/3/5/3/0 with 3 t/o on 49.3 TS% (10-26 2-9 8-10)
Chandler: 8/17/1/2/2 with 1 t/o on 51.5 TS% (3-6 0-0 2-4)

Wade: 44/11/6/2/4 with 5 t/o on 65.0 TS% (16-29 4-12 8-11)
Bosh: 23/8/1/0/0 with 5 t/o on 46.5 TS% (7-19 0-1 9-13)
LeBron: 18/11/11/3/1 with 7 t/o on 40.3 TS% (7-21 1-9 3-3)

[shortsoptional]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg

[brain drain]

I think Wade was better overall in the Finals, but Dirk beasted in 4th quarters:

series:

Dirk: 26.0/9.7/2.0/0.7/0.7 with 2.8 t/o on 53.7 TS% (.416 .368 .978)
Terry: 18.0/2.0/3.2/1.3/0.0 with 1.3 t/o on 60.5 TS% (.494 .393 .750)
Chandler: 9.7/8.8/0.7/1.2/1.2 with 0.5 t/o on 62.9 TS% (.594 --- .625)

Wade: 26.5/7.0/5.2/1.5/1.5 with 2.5 t/o on 61.4 TS% (.546 .304 .694)
Bosh: 18.5/7.3/1.0/0.3/0.5 with 2.2 t/o on 49.6 TS% (.413 .000 .778)
LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)

4th quarters:

Dirk: 62/19/4/3/0 with 7 t/o on 68.0 TS% (18-35 2-6 24-24)
Terry: 30/3/5/3/0 with 3 t/o on 49.3 TS% (10-26 2-9 8-10)
Chandler: 8/17/1/2/2 with 1 t/o on 51.5 TS% (3-6 0-0 2-4)

Wade: 44/11/6/2/4 with 5 t/o on 65.0 TS% (16-29 4-12 8-11)
Bosh: 23/8/1/0/0 with 5 t/o on 46.5 TS% (7-19 0-1 9-13)
LeBron: 18/11/11/3/1 with 7 t/o on 40.3 TS% (7-21 1-9 3-3)

There are also 2 minor points you need to consider:
- Dirk had a flu game
- Mavs defense was fully centered on stopping LeBron and daring Wade and the rest to beat them while Miami's mainly concentrated on Dirk


Without that, it wouldnt have been as close between Dirk & Wade

[ProfessorMurder]

Virtually nobody claims his finals were one of the best series ever, they claim it was his entire PLAYOFF RUN. He was Godly.

[SilkkTheShocker]

It was a godly run with a subpar team. Much better than anything players like Kobe have done in their whole careers.

[guy]

For a player who is revered by all as clutch, to the informed analyst, it is clear that Dirk actually shrunk under the spotlight, just as Lebron James did. .

No he didn't. It wasn't like Lebron at all. Lebron's performance was the biggest shrinkage in NBA history. Its not comparable at all. Dirk shot badly, and it wasn't really a great Finals performance. But it wasn't like Lebron at all.

[Psycho]

Virtually nobody claims his finals were one of the best series ever, they claim it was his entire PLAYOFF RUN. He was Godly.

I added this for you.

If Dirk Nowitzki was so GODLY and CLUTCH in his playoff run, then why did he shrink under the lights of the Finals like mental midget Lebron?

[riseagainst]

i think a more overrated statement would be that Dirk was/is a better player than Kobe. :oldlol:

[fpliii]

There are also 2 minor points you need to consider:
- Dirk had a flu game
- Mavs defense was fully centered on stopping LeBron and daring Wade and the rest to beat them while Miami's mainly concentrated on Dirk


Without that, it wouldnt have been as close between Dirk & Wade

Eh, I disagree. I can respect that opinion though.

[Twiens]

Dirk seemed to hit EVERY big shot in that playoff run, his 1-footed fadeaway was automatic. There's also the fact that he destroyed Lebron in 4th quarters:oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

i think a more overrated statement would be that Dirk was/is a better player than Kobe. :oldlol:

Dirk is simply the better player. He can take crap teams to 50 win season and win a championship with Terry and Chandler has his 2/3 options. Kobe can't even get past the 1st round without the most stacked frontcourt in the league

[Psycho]

I think Wade was better overall in the Finals, but Dirk beasted in 4th quarters:

series:

Dirk: 26.0/9.7/2.0/0.7/0.7 with 2.8 t/o on 53.7 TS% (.416 .368 .978)
Terry: 18.0/2.0/3.2/1.3/0.0 with 1.3 t/o on 60.5 TS% (.494 .393 .750)
Chandler: 9.7/8.8/0.7/1.2/1.2 with 0.5 t/o on 62.9 TS% (.594 --- .625)

Wade: 26.5/7.0/5.2/1.5/1.5 with 2.5 t/o on 61.4 TS% (.546 .304 .694)
Bosh: 18.5/7.3/1.0/0.3/0.5 with 2.2 t/o on 49.6 TS% (.413 .000 .778)
LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)

4th quarters:

Dirk: 62/19/4/3/0 with 7 t/o on 68.0 TS% (18-35 2-6 24-24)
Terry: 30/3/5/3/0 with 3 t/o on 49.3 TS% (10-26 2-9 8-10)
Chandler: 8/17/1/2/2 with 1 t/o on 51.5 TS% (3-6 0-0 2-4)

Wade: 44/11/6/2/4 with 5 t/o on 65.0 TS% (16-29 4-12 8-11)
Bosh: 23/8/1/0/0 with 5 t/o on 46.5 TS% (7-19 0-1 9-13)
LeBron: 18/11/11/3/1 with 7 t/o on 40.3 TS% (7-21 1-9 3-3)

I would be interested to see Dirk's stats in 4 quarters in that playoff run excluding the Finals. Agree that Wade was better overall.

[brain drain]

I added this for you.

If Dirk Nowitzki was so GODLY and CLUTCH in his playoff run, then why did he shrink under the lights of the Finals like mental midget Lebron?

He didn't shrink, he was a) sick for a game and b) the major focal point of the Heat's defense.
Do we need to write it down for you? Not all players are defended equally and Dirk's performance (just like Lebron's) reflected how much the opposing D cared about them - while Terry's and DWade's performances show what happens when the opposing D is focused elsewhere.

Compared to Lebron, Dirk coped quite well with the added pressure, so I don't see where the problem is.

[buddha]

series:

Dirk: 26.0/9.7/2.0/0.7/0.7 with 2.8 t/o on 53.7 TS% (.416 .368 .978)


LeBron: 17.8/7.2/6.8/1.7/0.5 with 2.8 t/o on 54.1 TS% (.478 .321 .600)

4th quarters:

Dirk: 62/19/4/3/0 with 7 t/o on 68.0 TS% (18-35 2-6 24-24)


LeBron: 18/11/11/3/1 with 7 t/o on 40.3 TS% (7-21 1-9 3-3)

all that needs to be said, close her up.

[PickernRoller]

"The Curious Overrating of Dirk Nowitzki's Final Performance"

- An expose by an LBJ Fan.

[Psycho]

Dirk seemed to hit EVERY big shot in that playoff run, his 1-footed fadeaway was automatic. There's also the fact that he destroyed Lebron in 4th quarters:oldlol:

This is exactly the Nowitzki mythos that has been perpetuated by the availability heuristic, Nike advertising, and the cheap emotions of the irrational fan. Dirk's 1-footed fadeaway was not automatic in the finals; Dirk was not playing nearly as efficiently in the finals as he had been until that point.

[Lebron23]

2013 Lebron had a solid finals performance againts a a great defensive team. Marc Gasol, Stephen Curry, Pau Gasol, and Zach Randolph struggled againts the spurs in the playoffs. The 2013 Spurs are way better than the 2010 Celtics.

[shortsoptional]

This is exactly the Nowitzki mythos that has been perpetuated by the availability heuristic, Nike advertising, and the cheap emotions of the irrational fan. Dirk's 1-footed fadeaway was not automatic in the finals; Dirk was not playing nearly as efficiently in the finals as he had been until that point.

You seem to be arguing with yourself.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk seemed to hit EVERY big shot in that playoff run, his 1-footed fadeaway was automatic. There's also the fact that he destroyed Lebron in 4th quarters:oldlol:

He destroyed LeBron.

But he absolutely RAPED the Lakers. Kobe couldn't even muster one win against them.

[Psycho]

He didn't shrink, he was a) sick for a game and b) the major focal point of the Heat's defense.
Do we need to write it down for you? Not all players are defended equally and Dirk's performance (just like Lebron's) reflected how much the opposing D cared about them - while Terry's and DWade's performances show what happens when the opposing D is focused elsewhere.

Compared to Lebron, Dirk coped quite well with the added pressure, so I don't see where the problem is.

So in the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, Dirk was not the focal point of their opponents' defense? So then Dirk can only succeed when the other team does not focus on him? Does not sound so legendary to me :lol

[shortsoptional]

April 2013

700+ posts

I see I've been trolled....

[Lebron23]

He destroyed LeBron.

But he absolutely RAPED the Lakers. Kobe couldn't even muster one win against them.


They swept the defending 2010 NBA champion in the first round.

[Psycho]

You seem to be arguing with yourself.

Twiens said something objectively false. I corrected him.

But if you are saying you agree with me, do you agree that Dirk's finals performance was not legendary, and is remembered more for the narrative of Dirk vs the Evil Heat than Dirk's actual play?

[shortsoptional]

Twiens said something objectively false. I corrected him.

But if you are saying you agree with me, do you agree that Dirk's finals performance was not legendary, and is remembered more for the narrative of Dirk vs the Evil Heat than Dirk's actual play?

I think Dirk's finals were certainly not as good as his overall playoff run. I've yet to really see anyone claim otherwise. Clearly it is not the opinion of most. It has different qualities to it that make it memorable.. I don't say legendary. Dirk getting revenge from 2006.. hitting two essential game clinchers. One of the best comebacks in game 2 in Finals history (notice i did not say THE best).. along with struggling through sickness and LeBron and Wade's tasteless taunting/making fun of Dirk made it even sweeter. That and it being the culmination of a player who worked extremely hard for over a decade and winning something that people said he never could do as the lead dog (looking at your CJ Mustard)... THAT gave it memorable qualities. His playoff run was a great one...and it will be remembered as being great, legendary, historic or whatever other synonym you'd like to throw in there...

[KG215]

Where the f**k is the OP getting Dirk shrunk in the Finals from? He still beasted in the 4th quarters.


Game 1: 3/5 FG, 6/6 FT, 12 points

Game 2: 4/7 FG, 0/0 FT, 9 points (game winning driving layup with 0:03 left)

Game 3: 5/8 FG, 6/6 FT, 17 points

Game 4: 2/6 FG, 6/6 FT, 10 points (clutch shot with 0:15 remaining to give Mavs 3-point lead)

Game 5: 2/4 FG, 6/6 FT, 10 points

Game 6: 4/7 FG, 0/0 FG, 8 points

Totals
20/37 FG, 18/18 FT, 66 points

He averaged 11 points per 4th quarter and shot 54% from the floor and 100% from the FT line in the process.



fpliii: I got 66 total 4th quarter points, but I could've made a mistake. I was just going through the shot charts on and the 4th quarter play-by-plays for FT's on ESPN. Had to use BBR for game 4 since ESPN doesn't have shot-charts or PBP for that game for some reason.

And looking at your FT and FG totals, I'm off on those, too. Regardless, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters of that series and LeBron disappeared. LeBron was clearly the 3rd best player in that series.

[DMAVS41]

Wait. Since when is 26/10/2 on 54% TS and legendary 4th qtr / clutch play considered shrinking in the Finals? Oh...and he had the ****ing flu one game...LOL

Absurd.

I do agree that his finals tends to get over-rated, but to say he shrunk is absurd.

[Crown&Coke]

Virtually nobody claims his finals were one of the best series ever, they claim it was his entire PLAYOFF RUN. He was Godly.

this.

He murdered everyone. he killed Pau Gasol's soul and knocked him down about 4 pegs in the NBA ladder of big men. It would have been awesome except Pau is my dude and he still aint over that castration

He was clutch time after time. It was amazing to watch him shut everyone up

[SpecialQue]

Huh. So we're doing this now? In the past weeks we've seen Lebron stans create threads going after Jordan, Kobe, and now Dirk. Who else was not as good as your idol?

[SCdac]

we definitely always hear the words "historical", "magical", "godly", "murdered", etc, etc... I do think his run has gotten naturally overrated – like almost any great thing – but to be clear his playoff run in general should be high. Definitely think his teammates, and how they performed, is very underrated particularly anything involving defense (half the game) and just their collective experience. Dirks run is (lazily imo) compared to Duncan in 03 and Hakeem in mid 90's and I've always found that perplexing if we're talking both defense and offense (those guys were like Dirk and Tyson combined).

[KG215]

Huh. So we're doing this now? In the past weeks we've seen Lebron stans create threads going after Jordan, Kobe, and now Dirk. Who else was not as good as your idol?
They're just getting started. By the end of the summer we'll see threads on why LeBron is better than God, Babe Ruth, and Gandhi.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Where the f**k is the OP getting Dirk shrunk in the Finals from? He still beasted in the 4th quarters.


Game 1: 3/5 FG, 6/6 FT, 12 points

Game 2: 4/7 FG, 0/0 FT, 9 points (game winning driving layup with 0:03 left)

Game 3: 5/8 FG, 6/6 FT, 17 points

Game 4: 2/6 FG, 6/6 FT, 10 points (clutch shot with 0:15 remaining to give Mavs 3-point lead)

Game 5: 2/4 FG, 6/6 FT, 10 points

Game 6: 4/7 FG, 0/0 FG, 8 points

Totals
20/37 FG, 18/18 FT, 66 points

He averaged 11 points per 4th quarter and shot 54% from the floor and 100% from the FT line in the process.



fpliii: I got 66 total 4th quarter points, but I could've made a mistake. I was just going through the shot charts on and the 4th quarter play-by-plays for FT's on ESPN. Had to use BBR for game 4 since ESPN doesn't have shot-charts or PBP for that game for some reason.

And looking at your FT and FG totals, I'm off on those, too. Regardless, Dirk dominated the 4th quarters of that series and LeBron disappeared. LeBron was clearly the 3rd best player in that series.

/Thread. :applause:

and this


April 2013

700+ posts

I see I've been trolled....

[MavsSuperFan]

I love dirk and that was an epic playoff run, but you guys are right the 2011 finals were more about lebron choking than dirk being amazing. its just that the heat felt like a juggernaut and people were surprised when the mavs won


It has come to my attention that Dirk Nowitzki's 2010-11 finals performance is considered by many to be one of the performances of all time in which Dirk single-handedly defeated the evil Big Three while espousing the correct way of playing basketball (sticking with your team, getting it done on your own, being clutch under pressure etc). I am here to point out that this narrative, whether true or false has led to Dirk's finals being overrated by the teeming, ignorant masses. Here is the proof.

Dirk in Playoffs excluding the Finals (2010-11)
28.4 PPG/7.5 RPG/2.7 APG/3.2 TOV on .517/.516/.929 w/ 9.2 FTA per game

Dirk in the Finals (2010-11)
26.0 PPG/9.7 RPG/2.0 APG/2.8 TOV on .416/.368/.974 w/ 7.7 FTA per game

As clearly evidenced by the above data, Dirk regressed by a great deal going into the finals just like Lebron. For a player who is revered by all as clutch, to the informed analyst, it is clear that Dirk actually shrunk under the spotlight, just as Lebron James did. He made some big shots, yes, but just about every star player does that. And Dirk made the majority of his clutch shots before the playoffs, which created the buzz for how "clutch" he was. When, in the finals, Dirk played a mediocre brand of basketball, the Dirk vs the Evil Heat narrative led to people remembering a couple of shots he made in the fourth quarter and forgetting that he was not actually spectacular for the whole of the series. To further demonstrate this, compare Dirk's stats to those of Lebron from this past finals, who everyone acknowledges was a mediocre performance from Lebron.

Lebron James in the Finals (2012-13)
25.3 PPG/10.9 RPG/7.0 APG/2.6 TOV on .447/.353/.795 w/ 5.6 FTA per game

Lebron in his mediocre Finals was superior to Dirk in his Legendary Finals in every aspect (excluding Free Throws) including defense by a large margin. Dirk in the Finals regressed by a large margin from his previous play in the playoffs, just like LBJ has done countless times. Yet, Dirk receives none of the vitriolic criticism James deals with on a daily basis and is instead lauded as a hero.

If Dirk Nowitzki was so GODLY and CLUTCH in his playoff run, then why did he shrink under the lights of the Finals like mental midget Lebron?



lol lebron was afraid to shoot in 2011

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=SCdac]we definitely always hear the words "historical", "magical", "godly", "murdered", etc, etc... I do think his run has gotten naturally overrated

[branslowski]

Wait. Since when is 26/10/2 on 54% TS and legendary 4th qtr / clutch play considered shrinking in the Finals? Oh...and he had the ****ing flu one game...LOL

Absurd.

I do agree that his finals tends to get over-rated, but to say he shrunk is absurd.

This.

And, imo I don't think his finals were overrated, he f*ckin went God mode in the 4th quarters of all those games in the finals...no one could guard him. (I admit to trolling against Dirk during the run only because u were trolling my fav player, but honestly, Dirk did the damn thing).

[Kblaze8855]

Dirk was legendary vs the Thunder. As in...some of the most "WTf?" shot making in basketball history.

WCF aside there wasnt much to make a big deal out of.

In the finals he missed soooooooooo many shots he usually doesnt. But he got them there to begin with.

[sportjames23]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Bron will never live this down. Never saw MJ get outplayed in the Finals. Hell, never saw MJ get outplayed in any series.

[7_cody]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


Bron will never live this down. Never saw MJ get outplayed in the Finals. Hell, never saw MJ get outplayed in any series.

That's because LeBron isn't nearly as good as MJ

[dr.hee]

Dirk was legendary vs the Thunder. As in...some of the most "WTf?" shot making in basketball history.

WCF aside there wasnt much to make a big deal out of.

In the finals he missed soooooooooo many shots he usually doesnt. But he got them there to begin with.

I have to agree in the sense that people tend to overrate Dirk's performance because he won the title while ignoring his usual standard of playing over the years. He has always been a very good playoff performer, it's just that people didn't notice it most of the time. I mean the 2 years before he did have some absolutely crazy series against the Spurs (shooting something like 55/55/95) or dropping 34/13 per game on Denver.

The main difference in 2011 was that the team as a whole put him into a position to win a ring. Besides the OKC series, where he basically looked like a video game character, he was very good, but not as invincible as people tend to make it. Dirk is one of the all time great playoff performers, he wasn't godlike in the whole 2011 run though. I'd even argue that 2011 was already slightly past his peak.

[livinglegend]

Yup, his 2011 finals is overrated and that s why
Lebron 2012 playoffs run > Dirk s 2011 playoffs run

[SCdac]

I think Dirk's clutch play is what puts it on a level that gets those comparisons.

I don't care what people say...close games are inevitable in the playoffs unless you have a truly historically stacked team (which the Mavs did not)...and Dirk's clutch play was out of this world good.

I think that is the missing piece for people in your camp. I'm not saying it was as good overall, but a huge reason why it should be rated very high is that 16 of the 21 games the Mavs played in the playoffs went into crunch time...and Dirk was insanely good in those moments. Easily the main reason the Mavs won the title.

To me, that's somewhat of an arbitrary stat and as we be both know and you said, close games are inevitable. I don't really belong to any "camp", but if I did, it wouldn't necessarily be one that considers wins to be determined essentially by clutchness ("easily the main reason Mavs won a title"). New-found defense with a DPOY type center/great offensive rebounder, great coaching and strategies on both ends from Carlisle, all time great PG running everything (lead the team by far in assists), penetrating guards and swingmen who could hobble Lebron, Durant, Kobe, etc... all of that combined with Dirk's efficient/elite scoring and hunger to win (for lack of a better term) in so many crucial moments, it's why they won IMO.

It was definitely the Mavericks time to shine, right? .... and of course, Dirk's time too (thought he played mentally and physically tougher than ever before (in ways hard to quantify), with improved back-to-the-basket game... but lets face it we've seen Dirk be Dirk before). Obviously he is the most important player on the team, but his run by some has been a bit exaggerated IMO (largely due to being perceived or actual "underdogs"). As for the comparison I brought up, I think Hakeem and Duncan were on another level as players, as far as being the central cog on both ends with insane results. For instance, Duncan in 03 was almost like a quarterback on offense and then breaking shot blocking records on the other end.

[tmacattack33]

I think we all knew that dirk had an amazing first three rounds and a pretty decent finals.

His wcf is the series that everyone loves and it was historically amazing. I voted for it in that best playof series by an individual thread.

[sc19]

Forget Dirk and Wade. Marion outplayed LeBron. :bowdown:

[Harison]

Overall Playoffs run was great, Finals not so much. I remember how Dirk fans claimed how he "singlehandedly carried scrubs" in reality became scrubs carrying Dirk in the Finals :lol

When Mavs were down 1-2 and team needed him the most, Dirk shot the rest of the games 37% FG and 20% 3PT, he was terrible. In the close-out game, Mavs were winning by the half-time with Dirk going 1-12...

Therefore I have no idea from where some fans got it was "one of the best performances of All-time", because if one stars looking, it wasnt even in Top50 among All-time Playoffs performances.

Another telling point:

2010 Mavs, no DPOY anchor - lost in the 1st round.
2011 Mavs - DPOY anchor, championship.
2012 Mavs, no DPOY anchor - swept in the 1st round.

Wont even mention this year :lol

Bottom line: Dirk had a great '11 Playoffs run (overall), was subpar in the Finals, and also had awesome clutch moments. I was rooting for him and Kidd to get the first ring, and was cheering when they did, but major overrating which followed was simply weird. Much like Lebron winning now gets "he can be GOAT" posts, etc.

[catquickspider]

Dirk kept abusing the Heat defense when it mattered. No meaningless stat padding in blowouts like other people.

Another dude that only looks at stats.

[Blue&Orange]

.
Good job good effort...



Retard.

[GawdBe]

Dirk was unreal through that entire postseason. That 48 point game vs the Thunder was one of the greatest shooting displays I've ever seen. He killed the Heat in the clutch, just watch the games.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I've been saying this SINCE 2011, when DMAVS41 led a surge of overrating not only Dirk's Finals performance, but his playoff performance as well. The constant underrating of Dirk's cast from 2001 - 2012 is alarming. He's had some REALLY talented and well rounded basketball teams. A lot of them covering up his glaring weaknesses.

[DMAVS41]

I've been saying this SINCE 2011, when DMAVS41 led a surge of overrating not only Dirk's Finals performance, but his playoff performance as well. The constant underrating of Dirk's cast from 2001 - 2012 is alarming. He's had some REALLY talented and well rounded basketball teams. A lot of them covering up his glaring weaknesses.

And they won a shit ton over that time. Made the WCF three times, finals twice, won a title. Won 67 games in the regular season. Over 50...11 straight times.

Nobody says they were bad. Where you and others lose me is when I have to hear how they underachieved...that is the joke.

[dr.hee]

I've been saying this SINCE 2011, when DMAVS41 led a surge of overrating not only Dirk's Finals performance, but his playoff performance as well. The constant underrating of Dirk's cast from 2001 - 2012 is alarming. He's had some REALLY talented and well rounded basketball teams. A lot of them covering up his glaring weaknesses.

1) You're right that Dirk's 2011 run is somewhat overrated. On the other hand, averaging 26/10 in the playoffs for a decade gets underrated by many. He is an all time great playoff performer anyway. The 2011 finals? Good overall, not great. Fantastic 4th quarters of course, but he wasn't outstanding all the time.

2) Teammates covering up his glaring weaknesses? How? His biggest "weakness" is being only an average post defender. They covered that with Tyson Chandler, and won a ring.

The other aspect often considered as a "weakness" is his rebounding of course. Offensive boards are a valid point, but mainly due to Dirk playing on the perimeter a lot for a big man. Defensive rebounding...well he was leading the Mavs in rebounding for 9 straight f*cking years. So it's not a weakness anway, but the Mavs also didn't do much covering it.

So what are Dirk's "glaring weaknesses", and how exactly did the Mavs "cover them up" before adding Tyson Chandler?

[DMAVS41]

To me, that's somewhat of an arbitrary stat and as we be both know and you said, close games are inevitable. I don't really belong to any "camp", but if I did, it wouldn't necessarily be one that considers wins to be determined essentially by clutchness ("easily the main reason Mavs won a title"). New-found defense with a DPOY type center/great offensive rebounder, great coaching and strategies on both ends from Carlisle, all time great PG running everything (lead the team by far in assists), penetrating guards and swingmen who could hobble Lebron, Durant, Kobe, etc... all of that combined with Dirk's efficient/elite scoring and hunger to win (for lack of a better term) in so many crucial moments, it's why they won IMO.

It was definitely the Mavericks time to shine, right? .... and of course, Dirk's time too (thought he played mentally and physically tougher than ever before (in ways hard to quantify), with improved back-to-the-basket game... but lets face it we've seen Dirk be Dirk before). Obviously he is the most important player on the team, but his run by some has been a bit exaggerated IMO (largely due to being perceived or actual "underdogs"). As for the comparison I brought up, I think Hakeem and Duncan were on another level as players, as far as being the central cog on both ends with insane results. For instance, Duncan in 03 was almost like a quarterback on offense and then breaking shot blocking records on the other end.

If Dirk and Terry had been as clutch in 06 as they were in 11...the Mavs would have won the title in 06.

Or if Wade hadn't been as clutch in 06...they win.

Do you realize that Dirk made a go ahead shot over Shaq in game 5 in OT against the Heat in 06 with 9 seconds left that put the Mavs up 1? If Wade doesn't get fouled or make the game winner...the Mavs are pretty much locks to win that title.

So acting like Chandler made the big difference is silly. He made a difference of course...and he's a really good player, but ultimately replaceable. The Mavs with Dirk leading the way just had way too much success with teams prior to getting Chandler.

The difference overall between the 03 (kind of unfair because Dirk got hurt) and 06 and 11...is that Dirk and Terry came through pretty much every single time the Mavs needed them to in a clutch situation.

And as I said earlier...unless you have a truly great team...you need to excel in situational play to upset teams...which is exactly what happened.

[SamuraiSWISH]

And they won a shit ton over that time. Made the WCF three times, finals twice, won a title. Won 67 games in the regular season. Over 50...11 straight times.
Won 67 games in the regular season, and got beat in the first round of the damn playoffs. Who cares if they won a lot of regular season games? It means nothing without the hardware. They choked away the 2006 Finals, then never got back there again until 2011 ... won a series v.s. the Lakers where their second best player refused to show up, and the Finals v.s. the Heat when their best player just mentally checked out. It's not as impressive as made out to be. None of Dirk's accomplishments are. His weak ass 2007 MVP being among the top of the list. Dude couldn't even get his squad back to the Finals for a chance to repeat. Fugazy, fluke championship.

Of course they have underachieved. 67 wins, and then an 8th seed beats you? Pathetic. Dirk has played on championship caliber rosters thanks to one of the best GMs of all-time EVERY season since 2001. EVERY season. I'm talking huge payrolls, with very talented players at multiple positions and the bench. Dirk's 2011, and even his career is kind of getting overrated. People start talking like he's even better than Garnett. Which he isn't.

Is Dirk ranked over Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley just because he got a ring on his resume? I don't think he's better than those guys, either. You and others have made it sound like Dirk's 2011 run was on the level of Hakeem's '94 or Duncan's 2003 just because he didn't have a co-superstar. The depth and all around talent, intelligence, and experience on that team was absurd. Dirk should've got to the Finals more times than he has in his career, IMO.

[eklip]

Won 67 games in the regular season, and got beat in the first round of the damn playoffs. Who cares if they won a lot of regular season games? It means nothing without the hardware. They choked away the 2006 Finals, then never got back there again until 2011 ... won a series v.s. the Lakers where their second best player refused to show up, and the Finals v.s. the Heat when their best player just mentally checked out. It's not as impressive as made out to be. None of Dirk's accomplishments are. His weak ass 2007 MVP being among the top of the list. Dude couldn't even get his squad back to the Finals for a chance to repeat. Fugazy, fluke championship.

Of course they have underachieved. 67 wins, and then an 8th seed beats you? Pathetic. Dirk has played on championship caliber rosters thanks to one of the best GMs of all-time EVERY season since 2001. EVERY season. I'm talking huge payrolls, with very talented players at multiple positions and the bench. Dirk's 2011, and even his career is kind of getting overrated. People start talking like he's even better than Garnett. Which he isn't.

Is Dirk ranked over Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley just because he got a ring on his resume? I don't think he's better than those guys, either. You and others have made it sound like Dirk's 2011 run was on the level of Hakeem's '94 or Duncan's 2003 just because he didn't have a co-superstar. The depth and all around talent, intelligence, and experience on that team was absurd. Dirk should've got to the Finals more times than he has in his career, IMO.

You said it yourself: Regular season means nothing without the hardware.

Dirk is the better playoff performer than Karl and Barkley.

[SamuraiSWISH]

You said it yourself: Regular season means nothing without the hardware.
From a team perspective, yes.


Dirk is the better playoff performer than Karl and Barkley.
Dirk is NOT a better playoff performer than Barkley. Stop.

[K Xerxes]

You said it yourself: Regular season means nothing without the hardware.

Dirk is the better playoff performer than Karl and Barkley.

:roll:

It may be impossible for you to experience the 90s first hand, but please at least do a bit of research or watch some footage before making ludicrous statements.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

This is a very idiotic thread. Dirk didn't shrink under the lights (except for perhaps game 6 if I recall correctly). The problem I have with that Finals is the way people overrate Dirk's average performance by saying he single-handedly beat the Big 3. Wade was by far the best player in that series and it really wasn't close.

[DMAVS41]

Won 67 games in the regular season, and got beat in the first round of the damn playoffs. Who cares if they won a lot of regular season games? It means nothing without the hardware. They choked away the 2006 Finals, then never got back there again until 2011 ... won a series v.s. the Lakers where their second best player refused to show up, and the Finals v.s. the Heat when their best player just mentally checked out. It's not as impressive as made out to be. None of Dirk's accomplishments are. His weak ass 2007 MVP being among the top of the list. Dude couldn't even get his squad back to the Finals for a chance to repeat. Fugazy, fluke championship.

Of course they have underachieved. 67 wins, and then an 8th seed beats you? Pathetic. Dirk has played on championship caliber rosters thanks to one of the best GMs of all-time EVERY season since 2001. EVERY season. I'm talking huge payrolls, with very talented players at multiple positions and the bench. Dirk's 2011, and even his career is kind of getting overrated. People start talking like he's even better than Garnett. Which he isn't.

Is Dirk ranked over Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley just because he got a ring on his resume? I don't think he's better than those guys, either. You and others have made it sound like Dirk's 2011 run was on the level of Hakeem's '94 or Duncan's 2003 just because he didn't have a co-superstar. The depth and all around talent, intelligence, and experience on that team was absurd. Dirk should've got to the Finals more times than he has in his career, IMO.

Wait a second. So it means nothing without the hardware...yet somehow Barkley and Malone are better than Dirk?

All you are doing is offering your opinion...which is fine. But stop acting like your opinion is fact.

The facts are that the Mavs actually overachieved in the playoffs more than they underachieved.

The only true two times they underachieved were in 07 and 10. And in 10...I just find it really difficult to know why that Mavs team losing to that Spurs team is a big deal. But we can count that if you want.

They overachieved in 01, 06, 09, and 11. All those years they went deeper in the playoffs than expected.

See...those are facts. Actual real things. The Mavs lost when expected to go deeper twice...and went deeper than expected 4 times.

So STFU...

bu bu bu bu but...it means nothing without the hardware. yet malone, barkley, and kg are clearly better than Dirk. yep...makes sense.

[spacebump]

This is a very idiotic thread. Dirk didn't shrink under the lights (except for perhaps game 6 if I recall correctly). The problem I have with that Finals is the way people overrate Dirk's average performance by saying he single-handedly beat the Big 3. Wade was by far the best player in that series and it really wasn't close.

Game winning shots hit in the 2011 Finals:
Dirk:2
Bosh:1
LeBron:0
Wade:0

Part of the reason Wade looked as good as he did during that Finals is because the part of the Mavs defensive plan was to force LeBron to defer to Wade.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Game winning shots hit in the 2011 Finals:
Dirk:2
Bosh:1
LeBron:0
Wade:0

Part of the reason Wade looked as good as he did during that Finals is because the part of the Mavs defensive plan was to force LeBron to defer to Wade.
LeBron hit essentially a game AND series clinching shot in game 7 of the NBA Finals !!!

Wade had a SERIES winning performance in 2006, stealing the entire series from a better Dallas Mavericks team.

Are you serious right now?

Where are the Mavericks in 2011 if LeBron doesn't become detached, and Jason Terry doesn't CARRY the Mavericks in the first half of game 6?

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Game winning shots hit in the 2011 Finals:
Dirk:2
Bosh:1
LeBron:0
Wade:0

Part of the reason Wade looked as good as he did during that Finals is because the part of the Mavs defensive plan was to force LeBron to defer to Wade.

Didn't Dirk only have one game winner? It was game 2 iirc. In any case, that's a very small sample size to determine who the better player was. And I don't get your comment about why Wade looked so good.

[DMAVS41]

LeBron hit essentially a game AND series clinching shot in game 7 of the NBA Finals !!!

Wade had a SERIES winning performance in 2006, stealing the entire series from a better Dallas Mavericks team.

Are you serious right now?

Where are the Mavericks in 2011 if LeBron doesn't become detached, and Jason Terry doesn't CARRY the Mavericks in the first half of game 6?


Playing and likely winning a game 7...as Dirk has never lost a game 7 and has been able to elevate his game.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't Dirk only have one game winner? It was game 2 iirc. In any case, that's a very small sample size to determine who the better player was. And I don't get your comment about why Wade looked so good.

I only counted 1 as well...although the game 5 play over Haslem was huge.

He is saying that the entire Mavs defense was concerned with stopping Lebron and Wade basically was an afterthought. Which is mostly true...

[spacebump]

LeBron hit essentially a game AND series clinching shot in game 7 of the NBA Finals !!!

Wade had a SERIES winning performance in 2006, stealing the entire series from a better Dallas Mavericks team.

Are you serious right now?

Where are the Mavericks in 2011 if LeBron doesn't become detached, and Jason Terry doesn't CARRY the Mavericks in the first half of game 6?

Refs gave it to Wade in 06.

LeBron wasn't detached in 2011, they played amazing D against him.
also, Dirk doesn't lose in game 7s.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Refs gave it to Wade in 06.

LeBron wasn't detached in 2011, they played amazing D against him.
also, Dirk doesn't lose in game 7s.

Be honest. Do you really believe that? He was hanging around the three point line and didn't seem to care much about being part of the play. I could tell just by looking at his body language. He just looked defeated. Mavs didn't play any amazing defense on him. They had a prehistoric Kidd guarding him at times. They even had Barea guarding him and whenever Barea would flop, he didn't seem to care much. Go re-watch the Bulls series and then the Mavs series from that year. You can't seriously tell me he had the same mentality in those series.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Refs gave it to Wade in 06.
No, the shoddy officiating aided in the magnitude or production of the performance. That's why anyone who claims it's the best Finals performance ever (TonyMontana) is clearly retarded.

But free throws alone didn't account for Wade's mentality to attack and force Dallas defense into difficult situations. He scored on a variety of drives, and mid-range bank shots.

Wade won that series on will power and the fact he attacked the rim and scored. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

The refs didn't defend Dirk and forcefully keep him from dominating like Wade DID dominate in those 2006 Finals.

The refs didn't make Josh Howard miss end of game sealing free-throws, either.

The refs didn't use magic to make Gary Payton hit a left handed game winning bank shot.

The refs didn't push Dallas defenders aside, in order to let Wade SLICE through the Maverick's defense like a hot knife through butter like he did.

LeBron was clearly detached in the 2011 Finals, mentally. Are you blind or dumb? Dallas didn't do anything special on him. Hell there was long stretches where they simply put 85 year old, 6'2 Jason Kidd on him and LeBron didn't seem interested in doing much.

He swung the ball around on the perimeter to lesser players, clearly showing a visible lack of interest. You still haven't corrected your list. Dirk has one game winner in the Finals. LeBron himself has one. In game 7, on an all-time great performance (statistically) in said game. He hit a game winner right in Leonard's face to seal the game and the series.

[DMAVS41]

Wait a second. So it means nothing without the hardware...yet somehow Barkley and Malone are better than Dirk?

All you are doing is offering your opinion...which is fine. But stop acting like your opinion is fact.

The facts are that the Mavs actually overachieved in the playoffs more than they underachieved.

The only true two times they underachieved were in 07 and 10. And in 10...I just find it really difficult to know why that Mavs team losing to that Spurs team is a big deal. But we can count that if you want.

They overachieved in 01, 06, 09, and 11. All those years they went deeper in the playoffs than expected.

See...those are facts. Actual real things. The Mavs lost when expected to go deeper twice...and went deeper than expected 4 times.

So STFU...

bu bu bu bu but...it means nothing without the hardware. yet malone, barkley, and kg are clearly better than Dirk. yep...makes sense.

Still waiting to hear how the Mavs were underachievers...

[eklip]

:roll:

It may be impossible for you to experience the 90s first hand, but please at least do a bit of research or watch some footage before making ludicrous statements.

OK, he isn't better than Barkley. They performed on a similar level in the playoffs, but he is ahead of Karl.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=barklch01&y1=1999&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2013&p3=malonka01&y3=2000

First 15 seasons:
ppg/TS%: Dirk (25.9/.584) > Barkley (23.0/.584) > Karl (26.6/.532)
AST/STL/BLK: Barkley (3.9/1.6/0.9) > Karl (3.1/1.4/0.8) > Dirk (2.6/1.1/0.9)
TRB: Barkley (12.9) > Karl (11.2) > Dirk (10.3) (DRB: Barkley (8.7) = Dirk (8.7) > Karl (8.4))
WS48/PER/ORtg/DRtg: Dirk (.205/24.7/118/107) > Barkley (.193/24.2/118/107) > Karl (.155/22.4/108/103)

[TheBigVeto]

This has been Psycho, signing off.

You just hate white people.
Will neg later.

[Point Blank]

Wow @ this thread.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

They're just getting started. By the end of the summer we'll see threads on why LeBron is better than God, Babe Ruth, and Gandhi.

Why did you put Gandhi last :confusedshrug:

[Straight_Ballin]

Dirk basically invented a new type of shot. 1 legged fade away while bringing your knee up to put space between you and the defender and it was automatic. Why didn't any other player think of it?

[TheWalkman]

OP obviously didn't watch any of the games, just looked at the numbers. It was undoubtedly one of the greatest playoff runs ever.

Start actually watching games and quit being so analytical.

[DirkNowitzki41]

dont worry about samurai swoosh. dude goes above and beyond to put down any of dirks performance.

[SamuraiSWISH]

dont worry about samurai swoosh. dude goes above and beyond to put down any of dirks performance.
I said it's overrated, not that he wasn't very, very good. It's just not the caliber a lot of people make it out to be.

[dr.hee]

I said it's overrated, not that he wasn't very, very good. It's just not the caliber a lot of people make it out to be.

Agree. Still waiting for you to explain how the Mavs surrounded Dirk with players "covering up his glaring weaknesses" before adding Tyson Chandler though. Can you back up your claim with any facts? Everybody who actually watches basketball knows that for a whole decade, pretty much all that Dallas did was surrounding Nowitzki (great shooter, average defender) with good shooters and average defenders. So do you know what you're talking about at all?

[PickernRoller]

Heard it on ISH first:

Detached is the new word for CHOCKED........
Sacrifice is the new word for Shorcut............

LBJ fans rewriting the dictionary one word at a time.

[talkingconch]

couldnt find a more appropriate response than

did not read

[Balla_Status]

Dirk was shit in the 1st half of game 6 but was absolute tits in the 2nd half.

That 1st half was the only bad stretch Dirk had all playoffs. And JET FINALLY showed up in the series.

[To4]

i would say this thou,, dirks entire playoff series was Godly, but i admit his finals was not that Godly unlike the other series.. but you have to admit, love him or hate him, it has to be one of the greatest playoff run ever.. even if its not top 10 or what.. We became witnesses..

[bizil]

The Finals was simply the coronation for the best shooting big man of all time. Dirk changed the game and the ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUN showed how important it is to have a true ALPHA DOG able to dominate the big games. Even when Dirk is off, he's such a matchup nightmare that it opens things up for others. Which is the second key factor in my book of an alpha dog. Of course taking down the Big 3 in Miami is the icing on the cake. It's always a great story when a legend FINALLY wins the big one during the backend of a great career career. U got the great Big O, Ray-KG-Pierce, Dr. J (NBA wise of course) feel good story.

[Magic 32]

You can't overrate any of the Mavs players in that series.

It was the most beautiful karma bomb in the history of sports.

http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/lebron-james-finals-600x420.jpg

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2652794/chris-bosh-crying-o.gif

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/312692643.gif

[Mr. NBA]

I said it's overrated, not that he wasn't very, very good. It's just not the caliber a lot of people make it out to be. Seriously, watch the game. If you look at the numbers, Dirk struggled most of the first halves. But his determination was clearly displayed in every win that series unlike Lebron. He would enter the 4th with like 10 points and finish with 25. He responded to every run the Heat made. He adjusted his game because his fade aways were not hitting, and abused the Heat on drives in the post. Dirk isn't Lebron, hedidn't care about efficiency. Something Lebron didn't learn to do until this year's finals.

Anyways, Lebron 2012/2013 finals performance was no where near at good except for game 6 and 7. Before those games, he was the passive Lebron and did not dictate the series.

I don't see how you are under rating Dallas championship run. When there had only been 4 teams in the West the past 13 years to make the finals, they have been pretty damn successful.

[Doranku]

Why is it so hard for people to actually watch games instead of stare at and analyze the black and white text on box scores?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Seriously, watch the game. If you look at the numbers, Dirk struggled most of the first halves. But his determination was clearly displayed in every win that series unlike Lebron. He would enter the 4th with like 10 points and finish with 25. He responded to every run the Heat made. He adjusted his game because his fade aways were not hitting, and abused the Heat on drives in the post. Dirk isn't Lebron, hedidn't care about efficiency. Something Lebron didn't learn to do until this year's finals.

Anyways, Lebron 2012 finals performance was no where near at good except for game 6 and 7. Before those games, he was the passive Lebron and did not dictate the series.

I don't see how you are under rating Dallas championship run. When there had only been 4 teams in the West the past 13 years to make the finals, they have been pretty damn successful.

I hope you mean LeBron's 2013 Finals. LeBron didn't have a bad game the whole 2012 postseason

[AintNoSunshine]

Lebron is measured against GOAT standard, Dirk is not

[Mr. NBA]

I hope you mean LeBron's 2013 Finals. LeBron didn't have a bad game the whole 2012 postseason
Good shot, that was what I meant.

[D-Wade316]

His playoff run is overrated. Not even top-10 or top-20 alltime. Just in the last decade alone, I can name 6 runs better than Dirk's: Shaq 00-02, Duncan 03, Wade 06, Kobe 09, and probably Garnett 08. Lebron 12-13 is better too. So that's 8-9 playoff runs, since the start of the millenium, that are better than Dirk's.

[pegasus]

He was legendary that year in the playoffs. The best I've seen in a looong time. Anyone who says otherwise is biased or didn't watch his games.