Is the Harden trade one of the worst in NBA history?

[Connor B]

I think so. It has far-reaching effects. Kevin Durant and Westbrook's career may be forever altered. Harden gets OKC past Memphis this year even without Westbrook. Maybe Westbrook doesn't get hurt and they are in the Finals again. Whatever, hindsight in 20/20.

But now that Martin is gone the whole trade seemed ****ing useless. Literally if they had let Perkins go, made Collison the starting center, roll with the core of Brook-Durant-Harden-Ibaka. They would be unreal in like 2-3 years.

Now they, while still elite when healthy, are looking like a perennial WCF exit especially if Dwight is healthy on whatever team he joins.

Feel bad for Durant and Westbrook honestly.

[KG215]

But now that Martin is gone the whole trade seemed ****ing useless.
:facepalm

Martin being gone after the first year was always a possibility and probably something Presti was fine with back in October when he made the deal, which is why he also got Lamb in the trade. Martin regressed all season and basically became a glorified role-playing spot-up shooter by the All-Star break. Now they get to play Lamb more, let him develop, and there's a decent chance he can bring a lot of the same things Martin brought to the table but on a much cheaper contract.

Oh, and Reggie Jackson emerged big time in the playoffs, so he softens the blow, too. He averaged 14-5-4-1-1 on 48% FG and 58% TS in the playoffs; 15-5-4-1-1 on 47% FG and 57% TS after Westbrook got hurt. He had some really solid games and was our second best player in the playoffs. Here's some of the statlines he put up:

18 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, 2 turnovers, 7/18 FG
17 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers, 7/15 FG
20 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks, 2 turnovers, 7/15 FG
16 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 turnover, 7/15 FG
15 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 1 block, 4 turnovers, 6/8 FG
16 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 0 turnovers, 7/15 FG

[scott0326]

I swear there is a thread with this exact same title, every few weeks..

[Young X]

The correct answer is yes.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Easily.

[FireMcFailPlease]

Was it the trade....or the wrong player on who to keep?

[noob cake]

Easily the worst trade of the past few years.

Probably not ever.

:facepalm Reggie Jackson makes Harden expendable :facepalm :facepalm

[KG215]

Easily the worst trade of the past few years.

Probably not ever.

:facepalm Reggie Jackson makes Harden expendable :facepalm :facepalm
Don't know if this was directed at me, but that's not what I said or inferred. I said Reggie Jackson's emergence makes Kevin Martin expendable, which it does.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Was it the trade....or the wrong player on who to keep?
Possibly both.

I still contend when Paul was on the block not wanting to stay in New Orleans, OKC should've offered Westbrook (a natural SG) for him.

CP3 / Harden / Durant meshes very well together, don't you think? Do you honestly think that with a team leader like Chris Paul, a true point guard who is miles more intelligent and level headed as opposed to the feminine emotional Westbrook, while being just as competitive wouldn't make OKC the meanest possible title contender?

Paul / Harden / Sefalosha / Durant / Ibaka

Whose beating that team, honestly? Paul on pick and pops with Durant, or Harden would be sick.

[Johnny Jones]

I still contend when Paul was on the block not wanting to stay in New Orleans, OKC should've offered Westbrook (a natural SG) for him.

.
:roll:

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

How about we wait until Lamb and Adams develop? Is that asking too much?

God, I'm gonna turn into the biggest OKC fan over the next few years just to give a big ..l.. to all the idiots on these forums when they win a title w/ Lamb starting and Adams being a key bench player in like 2016.

[kennethgriffin]

umm..

Kobe Bryant

July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac. ( left the hornets as a free agent a year later )


hornets basically had a top 5 all time legend and traded him away for nothing but a short rental of sir flops allot lol

[FireMcFailPlease]

How about we wait until Lamb and Adams develop? Is that asking too much?

God, I'm gonna turn into the biggest OKC fan over the next few years just to give a big ..l.. to all the idiots on these forums when they win a title w/ Lamb starting and Adams being a key bench player in like 2016.
alright bro, we'll make sure to remember that "you told us so"

[TylerOO]

Yep. Lamb and Adams won't amount to shit. Extremely mediocre bench players, AT BEST

[Droid101]

umm..

Kobe Bryant

July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac. ( left the hornets as a free agent a year later )


hornets basically had a top 5 all time legend and traded him away for nothing but a short rental of sir flops allot lol
B.b.b.b.utttttt didn't happen recently so obviously doesn't matter... right?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

alright bro, we'll make sure to remember that "you told us so"
no need to, I'm bookmarking this this thread! :banana:

[noob cake]

How about we wait until Lamb and Adams develop? Is that asking too much?

God, I'm gonna turn into the biggest OKC fan over the next few years just to give a big ..l.. to all the idiots on these forums when they win a title w/ Lamb starting and Adams being a key bench player in like 2016.

Do the prospect that OKC get as a direct result of losing more games/losing Harden count toward credits for the Harden trade?

[Lakers Legend#32]

The Curse of the Sonics

[Nuff Said]

Do the prospect that OKC get as a direct result of losing more games/losing Harden count toward credits for the Harden trade?

They had a slightly better winning percent this year tho

[Goldrush25]

B.b.b.b.utttttt didn't happen recently so obviously doesn't matter... right?

No, it obviously doesn't apply because Kobe didn't have much value at the time of the trade. He was a high school phenom, but all NBA players ball out in high school. Doesn't compare to trading the reigning 6th man of the year.

[kennethgriffin]

No, it obviously doesn't apply because no one knew Kobe's value at the time of the trade. Doesn't compare to trading the reigning 6th man of the year.

no one knew hardens true value either. before he went to houston he was ranked as a top 25 player. now hes thought of as a top 5 player in the league by some


bad trades are all hindsight anyway

and kobe was actually already getting hyped up as a legend in the making.

kobe was a star before most people think. doin his own commercials in 96

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEcyhWJkQXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3C3RnsZL4w

if kobe was some unknown nobody he wouldnt have been that exposed to the media


seriously.. the face of addidas his rookie year... you don't get that flyin under the radar

[noob cake]

They had a slightly better winning percent this year tho

Which was influenced by Harden leaving. Next year's draft, the year after that, etc all could be attributed to Presti trading Harden.

Every step that OKC takes will now be influenced by the Harden trade. Anytime anything goes right, brilliant trade Presti time.

[Heavincent]

It might be. They traded Harden for a one year rental of Martin, and two completely unproven players (Lamb and Adams). That's awful.

[BlazerRed]

Yes, it will most likely go down as one of the worst trades ever if Lamb or those picks don't pan out, but Martin leaving has no bearing on it whatsoever. The Thunder are in a better position if he goes.

[mugiwara]

Harden is not a top 5 player.
It was more the obvious he was the only playmaker, followed by eric mayor. now they have none.
OkC could have really benefitted from good influential veterans instead of perkins, them youngsters plus the non existent coaching leaves their franchise lacking in good basketball culture. they are totally reliant on talent, Westbrook and Durant are so good that they play the game poorly yet win, truly incredible.

[B4llin]

It is, the only explanation I can think of is that the league forced them to trade him to another team needing a superstar.

The Thunder with almost 4 superstars under 25 is unfair to the rest of the league, and the league wanted the talent distributed evenly.

It was easy for anyone to see how good Harden is and will be.

[2LeTTeRS]

It is, the only explanation I can think of is that the league forced them to trade him to another team needing a superstar.

The Thunder with almost 4 superstars under 25 is unfair to the rest of the league, and the league wanted the talent distributed evenly.

It was easy for anyone to see how good Harden is and will be.

No it was much simpler than that, the Thunder just didn't want to pay the luxury tax.

[turnaroundJ]

Possibly both.

I still contend when Paul was on the block not wanting to stay in New Orleans, OKC should've offered Westbrook (a natural SG) for him.

CP3 / Harden / Durant meshes very well together, don't you think? Do you honestly think that with a team leader like Chris Paul, a true point guard who is miles more intelligent and level headed as opposed to the feminine emotional Westbrook, while being just as competitive wouldn't make OKC the meanest possible title contender?

Paul / Harden / Sefalosha / Durant / Ibaka

Whose beating that team, honestly? Paul on pick and pops with Durant, or Harden would be sick.

But this is wrong.

Westbrook can play off-ball quite well, while Harden can play to his strengths (playmaking, ballhandling). Paul and Harden would be redundant. And the defense would be worse.

[guy]

It was one of the worst trades not because of who they got back but because of the timing. The trade was completely unnecessary to make at the time. They could've easily just waited a year. The Thunder this past year may have made the Finals again AND they could've traded him for more i.e. Cavs pick+Dion Waiters for example.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Golden State and Washington passing on Harden is just as a big of a joke. Washington didn't want to trade Beal? :oldlol:

[JMT]

If Westbrook's injury doesn't curtail their playoff run, it's pretty much a non-topic.

Harden isn't close to a Top 5 player as some have asserted. It's amazing to me that people can watch this game and not understand that if you put a good offensive player on a team with no real other options, let him monopolize the ball and are willing to play .500 ball, they're going to have the chance to put up big numbers.

Not a bash on Harden. Just a fact.

His need for the ball in his hands didn't play into OKC's system, and the luxury tax hit was more than they wanted to pay for a 6th man.

Let's see him actually accomplish something in Houston, aside from personal stats, before labeling the guy some kind of superstar.

[PotOdds]

People don't get it. OKC with a starting big 3 of Harden, Westbrook, Durant are a true powerhouse. Screw the luxury tax. Damn cheapskates. OKC might get dinged but compare them to Knicks or Lakers, it aint even close.

Harden is top 10 and fast approaching top 5. The big 3 would have learned to play with one another like Miami's big 3. Damn that would have been special.

[JMT]

People don't get it. OKC with a starting big 3 of Harden, Westbrook, Durant are a true powerhouse. Screw the luxury tax. Damn cheapskates. OKC might get dinged but compare them to Knicks or Lakers, it aint even close.

Harden is top 10 and fast approaching top 5. The big 3 would have learned to play with one another like Miami's big 3. Damn that would have been special.


Harden can't successfully start on a team with Westbrook and Durant. There's only one basketball and he doesn't move particularly well or willingly without it.

[PotOdds]

Same argument with Miami's big 3. They all want the ball. Seriously, if given a 2nd chance, I believe they could work it out. WB becomes Rondo-ish. Harden does his penetration. KD bombs away. Yeah, they could make it work.


Harden can't successfully start on a team with Westbrook and Durant. There's only one basketball and he doesn't move particularly well or willingly without it.

[JMT]

Same argument with Miami's big 3. They all want the ball. Seriously, if given a 2nd chance, I believe they could work it out. WB becomes Rondo-ish. Harden does his penetration. KD bombs away. Yeah, they could make it work.

You can't compare a Big 3 that includes Bosh to the OKC situation. He may want the ball, but he doesn't need it and can't dominate it like a perimeter player does.

[MiseryCityTexas]

umm..

Kobe Bryant

July 11, 1996: Traded by the Charlotte Hornets to the Los Angeles Lakers for Vlade Divac. ( left the hornets as a free agent a year later )


hornets basically had a top 5 all time legend and traded him away for nothing but a short rental of sir flops allot lol


what makes it worse is that the majority of the players on them Hornets teams of the mid 90s didn't even stay on that team for a very long time. glen rice, anthony mason all left after two or three years. Hornets probably could've had Kobe and prime Baron Davis in the back court together

[KG215]

If Westbrook's injury doesn't curtail their playoff run, it's pretty much a non-topic.

Harden isn't close to a Top 5 player as some have asserted. It's amazing to me that people can watch this game and not understand that if you put a good offensive player on a team with no real other options, let him monopolize the ball and are willing to play .500 ball, they're going to have the chance to put up big numbers.

Not a bash on Harden. Just a fact.

His need for the ball in his hands didn't play into OKC's system, and the luxury tax hit was more than they wanted to pay for a 6th man.

Let's see him actually accomplish something in Houston, aside from personal stats, before labeling the guy some kind of superstar.


Harden can't successfully start on a team with Westbrook and Durant. There's only one basketball and he doesn't move particularly well or willingly without it.
:applause:

This guy gets it.

[MiseryCityTexas]

If Westbrook's injury doesn't curtail their playoff run, it's pretty much a non-topic.

Harden isn't close to a Top 5 player as some have asserted. It's amazing to me that people can watch this game and not understand that if you put a good offensive player on a team with no real other options, let him monopolize the ball and are willing to play .500 ball, they're going to have the chance to put up big numbers.

Not a bash on Harden. Just a fact.

His need for the ball in his hands didn't play into OKC's system, and the luxury tax hit was more than they wanted to pay for a 6th man.

Let's see him actually accomplish something in Houston, aside from personal stats, before labeling the guy some kind of superstar.


Harden can't successfully start on a team with Westbrook and Durant. There's only one basketball and he doesn't move particularly well or willingly without it

Your shitty sentence and paragraphs sounds like undercover hating. As unselfish a player harden is, he would have given both westbrook and durant their shots with his passing as a starter.

[KG215]

Your shitty sentence and paragraphs sounds like undercover hating. As unselfish a player harden is, he would have given both westbrook and durant their shots with his passing as a starter.
Unselfish or not, Harden is most effective with the ball in his hands. So is Westbrook and so is Durant to a lesser extent. Having three players like that on the same team can cause problems and Harden was never going to flourish and breakout in OKC the way he did this year.

[PotOdds]

Fact is that Miami's big 3 has shown every other potential "superteam" what it takes to get it done. It's not about the individual accolades. Wade really had to give up a lot. So many saying he's broke down and shit. If he was still by himself, he would be doing 25-27pt per game.

Harden, Westbrook and Durant would have figured it out. Being 2nd banana to Miami would have driven them to figure out a way to beat Miami. I really thought the Spurs were overall a better TEAM than Miami.

Starting their big 3, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, showed one way of beating Miami. Constant attacks from all angles. It's unfortunate those guys were too old and couldn't put it together often enough. OKC big 3 wouldn't have suffer from age.



You can't compare a Big 3 that includes Bosh to the OKC situation. He may want the ball, but he doesn't need it and can't dominate it like a perimeter player does.

[noob cake]

Harden, Durant, Westbrook would have worked.

Just this year, when LeBron and Wade sucked, Bosh would step up and put up monster games.

Similarly, if Westbrook turns had turned into Chuckbrick, Harden could step up and fill in the boxscores.

[JMT]

Your shitty sentence and paragraphs sounds like undercover hating. As unselfish a player harden is, he would have given both westbrook and durant their shots with his passing as a starter.

And your ridiculous statement and user name make it apparent you have a home team bias.

No agenda, no "hating". He's best with the ball in his hands, as are both Durant and Westbrook. It's a bad fit, and OKC made a business decision not to take on the luxury tax for a guy who, with their personnel, was likely best suited to a 6th man role.

[JMT]

Fact is that Miami's big 3 has shown every other potential "superteam" what it takes to get it done. It's not about the individual accolades. Wade really had to give up a lot. So many saying he's broke down and shit. If he was still by himself, he would be doing 25-27pt per game.

Harden, Westbrook and Durant would have figured it out. Being 2nd banana to Miami would have driven them to figure out a way to beat Miami. I really thought the Spurs were overall a better TEAM than Miami.

Starting their big 3, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, showed one way of beating Miami. Constant attacks from all angles. It's unfortunate those guys were too old and couldn't put it together often enough. OKC big 3 wouldn't have suffer from age.

It's not a "fact" when you're looking at an entirely different set of players and assuming that guys would have changed their approach to the game in order to make it work.

San Antonio's Big 3 , again, includes one guy that doesn't have to have the ball to contribute.

Apples and oranges.

[SCdac]

Fact is that Miami's big 3 has shown every other potential "superteam" what it takes to get it done. It's not about the individual accolades.

It's also takes players willing to sacrifice in a number of ways.

LMAO at the thought of Harden in the prime of his career sacrificing money and shots and fame. He obviously wasn't into that. Reportedly he was complaining about lack of shots in the 2012 Finals, not to mention disagreement in extension talks.

Harden wants the individual accolades.

[KG215]

It's also takes players willing to sacrifice in a number of ways.

LMAO at the thought of Harden in the prime of his career sacrificing money and shots and fame. He obviously wasn't into that. Reportedly he was complaining about lack of shots in the 2012 Finals.

Harden wants the individual accolades.
Yeah, there was an article written about it and posted on here, and apparently Harden was dejected and upset because of his touches or shots or something along those lines after a Finals game. People are overlooking these types of things, too. There's a chance there could've been some somewhat serious chemistry issues down the line. Someone...Harden, Westbrook, or Durant -- all 3 perimeter players who are most effective being ball-dominant -- was eventually going to be unhappy with their role, and it would've likely been Harden. There were already signs of it being Harden, and there was a clear pecking order in OKC, as Durant and Westbrook are better players, and Harden was the 6th Man.

People thought Harden would just accept his role and be another Ginobili, but not everyone has the same mindset and willingness to sacrifice like Manu.

[PotOdds]

That's because it's now obvious Harden was being asked to play too far below his level. He ain't Kevin Martin or J.R. Smith. He's much better. It's like asking prime/ascending Wade to be a 6th man. Make Harden an "equal" like he should be (top 10 talent) and he will sacrifice for championship. Harden has shown he's willing to share. He and Lin were having chemistry problems so he became more of a SG to accommodate Lin.

To think it was a matter of $5 million difference. You deal with building the championship-caliber team first then deal with luxury tax later. Miami has that headache next year. Lakers/Knicks have that headache now and they aren't even that close to being contenders.


It's also takes players willing to sacrifice in a number of ways.

LMAO at the thought of Harden in the prime of his career sacrificing money and shots and fame. He obviously wasn't into that. Reportedly he was complaining about lack of shots in the 2012 Finals, not to mention disagreement in extension talks.

Harden wants the individual accolades.

[RRR3]

SHUT the fcuk up Griff!

[PotOdds]

People are trying to rationalize letting Harden go with this excuse (demanding more shots = selfish) and that he didn't do well in the Finals. No way. OKC former big 3 were super young. They needed to have time to go through the growing pains. Finals growing pain is a priceless learning lesson. Look at Lebron when he lost with Cavs in the Finals. It took till he was 27 to get his first championship. Dumping Harden because you thought he came up short in the Finals is a poor rationalization.


Yeah, there was an article written about it and posted on here, and apparently Harden was dejected and upset because of his touches or shots or something along those lines after a Finals game. People are overlooking these types of things, too. There's a chance there could've been some somewhat serious chemistry issues down the line. Someone...Harden, Westbrook, or Durant -- all 3 perimeter players who are most effective being ball-dominant -- was eventually going to be unhappy with their role, and it would've likely been Harden. There were already signs of it being Harden, and there was a clear pecking order in OKC, as Durant and Westbrook are better players, and Harden was the 6th Man.

People thought Harden would just accept his role and be another Ginobili, but not everyone has the same mindset and willingness to sacrifice like Manu.

[KG215]

People are trying to rationalize letting Harden go with this excuse (demanding more shots = selfish) and that he didn't do well in the Finals. No way. OKC former big 3 were super young. They needed to have time to go through the growing pains. Finals growing pain is a priceless learning lesson. Look at Lebron when he lost with Cavs in the Finals. It took till he was 27 to get his first championship. Dumping Harden because you thought he came up short in the Finals is a poor rationalization.
It's not rationalizing/making excuses when those things actually happened.

[RRR3]

These are all the players who have had seasons of 25/4.5/5 (Harden had 25.9/4.9/5.8 last year).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25.0&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=4.5&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=5.0&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws


He's a superstar

[KG215]

I just want to ask...are people still freaking out over this trade and calling it one of the worst ever if Westbrook hadn't gotten hurt this year and OKC still made the Finals?

They probably still don't beat the Heat, but I don't think they would've beat them with Harden, either. The Heat are just a bad match-up for them.

[PotOdds]

Honestly, I really don't think OKC get through the Spurs. That's how good the Spurs were gelling at the end of the year. They BLEW out Memphis 4-0 in the WCF. Really they were better than Miami team-wise but came up an inch short. If only there was one more game in San Antonio. Or if you could chop a couple of years off of Duncan or Ginobili's ages. :D


I just want to ask...are people still freaking out over this trade and calling it one of the worst ever if Westbrook hadn't gotten hurt this year and OKC still made the Finals?

They probably still don't beat the Heat, but I don't think they would've beat them with Harden, either. The Heat are just a bad match-up for them.

[KG215]

Honestly, I really don't think OKC get through the Spurs. That's how good the Spurs were gelling at the end of the year. He BLEW out Memphis 4-0 in the WCF. Really they were better than Miami but came up an inch short. If only there was one more game in San Antonio. Or if you could chop a couple of years off of Duncan of Ginobili's ages. :D
The Spurs weren't really lighting the world on fire going into the WCF. They were struggling with the Warriors until Curry re-injured the same ankle he hurt in the Nuggets series. OKC is a worse match-up for the Spurs than the Grizzlies and even the Heat. Just like the Spurs and Grizzlies are a worse match-up than the Thunder for the Heat. And OKC would've had HCA in the WCF.

[PotOdds]

Struggling???

Took out Lakers 4-0.
GSW 4-2.
Memphis 4-0.

Spurs were the most well rested team throughout the playoffs. Seriously, they would have taken out OKC even with WB. The extra motivation was the revenge factor from last year stinging loss. Pretty miraculous comeback. After that comeback, I seriously thought OKC was going to take out Miami last year but it turned out that that Ibaka phenomenon was a one time thing.


The Spurs weren't really lighting the world on fire going into the WCF. They were struggling with the Warriors until Curry re-injured the same ankle he hurt in the Nuggets series. OKC is a worse match-up for the Spurs than the Grizzlies and even the Heat. Just like the Spurs and Grizzlies are a worse match-up than the Thunder for the Heat. And OKC would've had HCA in the WCF.

[KG215]

Struggling???

Took out Lakers 4-0.
GSW 4-2.
Memphis 4-0.

Spurs were the most well rested team throughout the playoffs. Seriously, they would have taken out OKC even with WB. The extra motivation was the revenge factor from last year stinging loss. Pretty miraculous comeback. After that comeback, I seriously thought OKC was going to take out Miami last year but it turned out that that Ibaka phenomenon was a one time thing.
Yes, struggling with the Warriors until Curry re-injured the same ankle he hurt in the 1st round. The series was tied 2-2 at that point. I didn't say they were struggling before or after that. This "extra motivation" nonsense is just subjective bullshit. I don't know what would've happened, but I would've liked OKC's chances with HCA and because they present more match-up problems for the Spurs than just any other team in the league.

[Celtic_Pride]

but I would've liked OKC's chances with HCA and because they present more match-up problems for the Spurs than just any other team in the league.

Can OKC with Harden beat the Spurs? - Yes

Take out Harden and I don't see OKC beating the Spurs even with Westbrook. Don't forget the number of big shots Harden had in 2012 playoffs against Spurs and he was easily the better player than Westbrook in that series.

Without Harden, it is easier to defend against OKC in a playoff series as nobody apart from Westbrook/Durant can create offense and the Spurs gameplan would simply be completely limit 1 of them!

[Celtic_Pride]

If one of Lamb or that center they drafted this year pan out, the trade won't look as bad as it appears right now

[KG215]

Can OKC with Harden beat the Spurs? - Yes

Take out Harden and I don't see OKC beating the Spurs even with Westbrook. Don't forget the number of big shots Harden had in 2012 playoffs against Spurs and he was easily the better player than Westbrook in that series.

Without Harden, it is easier to defend against OKC in a playoff series as nobody apart from Westbrook/Durant can create offense and the Spurs gameplan would simply be completely limit 1 of them!
I'm getting tired of the argument OKC couldn't have beat the Spurs because they didn't have Harden anymore. They went 2-2 against them in the regular season and the Spurs weren't playing at the same level heading into the WCF that they were playing at last year heading into the WCF. By almost every measure, OKC in 2013 was better than they were in 2012. The Spurs, in my opinion, were better in 2012 than 2013, although I understand it's debatable. And it's also debatable OKC was better in 2012 than 2013.

It's not as simple as "OKC wouldn't have had Harden so they couldn't have beat them" this year. OKC would've had HCA, OKC was playing very good basketball at the end of the season and heading into the playoffs. I'm not saying it's a guarantee they would've beaten the Spurs, but the argument that they wouldn't have Harden this year is senseless.

[KG215]

If one of Lamb or that center they drafted this year pan out, the trade won't look as bad as it appears right now
People wouldn't be under the impression it "appears" terrible right now if Westbrook doesn't get hurt. It really is that simple, because I honestly believe the Thunder get back to the Finals, thus, people wouldn't be freaking out because Kevin Martin -- who averaged 12-2-2-1 on 44/40/86 shooting after the All-Star break and disappeared in the playoffs after Westbrook got hurt -- walked and OKC didn't get anything in return. They got the other piece in return last year in Lamb. This was a very real possibility all along, and people are acting like it's a huge surprise and they're going to be drastically worse next year because of it.

Martin sucked the second half of the season and sucked in the playoffs. Reggie Jackson emerged (big time) and we don't know how Lamb will pan out, but if he can turn into at least a reliable spot-up shooter, he'll basically be able to replace Martin but with better defense.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Its definitely up there for consideration lol. I remember making a thread about the Thunder's future assuming their FO keeps refusing to spend money, looks like I was completely right. After all, the Nets had their own experience under Bruce Ratner so as a Nets fan I know more than what most fans when it comes to how stingy owners/management destroy their teams. The Thunder could've been a serious threat to the Heat had they kept Harden or traded him for proper assets, but instead they messed things up.

[longtime lurker]

Really I blame Kendrick Perkins and Scott Brooks insane refusal to bench him. A starting line up of Harden, Westbrook, Durant, Sefelosha and Ibaka would be a ridiculous starting lineup.

[jbryan1984]

Not as bad as Dirk for Tractor Trailer but, still bad. But, it was OKC's decision to not go that far over the cap. Even when they sell out every game and are the only show in town. smh

[KG215]

Not as bad as Dirk for Tractor Trailer but, still bad. But, it was OKC's decision to not go that far over the cap. Even when they sell out every game and are the only show in town. smh
So? The repeat tax offender penalties are extremely steep and OKC doesn't have a lucrative TV deal or something similar that brings in a large amount of money every year. I don't think ticket sales alone would've been enough to keep covering the repeat offender penalties since they get exponentially worse every year. They offered Harden a 4yr/$55M deal, that's $13.75M/year. If he had accepted, OKC would've had about $60M per year tied up in four players. They couldn't really afford to go any higher.

[DKLaker]

Easily the worst trade of the past few years.

Probably not ever.

:facepalm Reggie Jackson makes Harden expendable :facepalm :facepalm


THIS

[Funnyfuka]

perkins...

:facepalm :rolleyes: :confusedshrug: :banghead:

[crisoner]

Well...it was either Serge or Harden. They picked Serge. That was what the trade was all about.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Lamb will reach GOAT status and everyone will say how Houston got ripped off:rockon:

[Goldrush25]

no one knew hardens true value either. before he went to houston he was ranked as a top 25 player. now hes thought of as a top 5 player in the league by some


bad trades are all hindsight anyway

and kobe was actually already getting hyped up as a legend in the making.

kobe was a star before most people think. doin his own commercials in 96

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEcyhWJkQXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3C3RnsZL4w

if kobe was some unknown nobody he wouldnt have been that exposed to the media


seriously.. the face of addidas his rookie year... you don't get that flyin under the radar

If anyone knew Kobe would be as good as he turned out he would've gone #1 overall. Simple as that. That he went as low as he did is an indicator of his relative value at the time.

[jbryan1984]

So? The repeat tax offender penalties are extremely steep and OKC doesn't have a lucrative TV deal or something similar that brings in a large amount of money every year. I don't think ticket sales alone would've been enough to keep covering the repeat offender penalties since they get exponentially worse every year. They offered Harden a 4yr/$55M deal, that's $13.75M/year. If he had accepted, OKC would've had about $60M per year tied up in four players. They couldn't really afford to go any higher.


I am not bashing your team man but OKC might had been the best group of home grown talent in NBA history, they should not have broken it up. They should of found a way.

[KG215]

I am not bashing your team man but OKC might had been the best group of home grown talent in NBA history, they should not have broken it up. They should of found a way.
It was going to have to be broken up at some point. The new CBA doesn't really make it feasible for a small market team to afford 4 max, or near max, players. It's just not doable. The repeat tax offender penalties are too harsh for a team in OKC's market.

Now, if you want to argue they shouod've traded Ibaka and not Harden, fine, but Harden is more redundant with what they arlready have in Durant and westbrook, and Durant and Westbrook are better than Harden; so Presti chose Ibaka. Harden wasn't ever going to properly flourish in a 6th Man/3rd option role in OKC, which was going to always be his role in OKC until he started getting upset with that role, and there were signs of that happening last year.

[2LeTTeRS]

So? The repeat tax offender penalties are extremely steep and OKC doesn't have a lucrative TV deal or something similar that brings in a large amount of money every year. I don't think ticket sales alone would've been enough to keep covering the repeat offender penalties since they get exponentially worse every year. They offered Harden a 4yr/$55M deal, that's $13.75M/year. If he had accepted, OKC would've had about $60M per year tied up in four players. They couldn't really afford to go any higher.

You realize the difference in what the Thunder supposedly offered, and what Harden wanted was what 4 to 6 mil over 4 years? So somehow the Thunder can afford to pay Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka $60 mil per year, but $61.5 mil is too much? I don't buy it.

Was a horrible decision by your owner/front office who seemed to take it personally that Harden wasn't willing to sacrifice dollars to stay.

[KG215]

You realize the difference in what the Thunder supposedly offered, and what Harden wanted was what 4 to 6 mil over 4 years? So somehow the Thunder can afford to pay Durant, Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka $60 mil per year, but $61.5 mil is too much? I don't buy it.

Was a horrible decision by your owner/front office who seemed to take it personally that Harden wasn't willing to sacrifice dollars to stay.
K. Can you give me a complete rundown or maybe even a transcript of the meetings and negotiations since apparently you were there?

[Nastradamus]

Too early to judge this trade. Gotta see how Lamb and Adams turn out.

[2LeTTeRS]

K. Can you give me a complete rundown or maybe even a transcript of the meetings and negotiations since apparently you were there?

First off I said they "seemed to take it personally" and if you got another reason why the Thunder dealt him the next day after not accepting what was termed a "take it or leave it" deal I'd love to hear it.

[KG215]

First off I said they "seemed to take it personally" and if you got another reason why the Thunder dealt him the next day after not accepting what was termed a "take it or leave it" deal I'd love to hear it.
I think they worked their way up to that "take it or leave it deal", but it wasn't their only offer. I, like everyone else, have no clue what really happened other than negotiations had been going on for a few weeks. I think they just reached a point where they couldn't willingly go much higher. Now, if it's true Harden was willing to accept something along the lines of 4yrs/$58M-$60M, fine, but I don't know how much truth there is to that.

But again, that still would've meant they would've had $60M+ per year tied up in 4 players. That's basically the salary cap every year and they wouldn't have had any flexibility. Presti is a firm believer (got it from his years with the Spurs) of being long-time contender, and adding any kind of decent depth under the new CBA in their small market would've been nearly impossible to do over the years due to the repeat tax offender penalties...unless I just completely misread/misunderstood how that works.

[Bigsmoke]

The Heat traded Michael Beasley for two 2nd round picks

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Really I blame Kendrick Perkins and Scott Brooks insane refusal to bench him. A starting line up of Harden, Westbrook, Durant, Sefelosha and Ibaka would be a ridiculous starting lineup.

on paper yes but I loved Harden coming off the bench. OKC had next to 0 bench scorers other than Harden.

[jbryan1984]

I just think they should of tried it first. If it didn't work out, then trade him.Why couldn't they use the amnesity clause on Perk? Just go out and get a cheap center, hell even Kwame Brown and put him with 3 all-stars and the best shot blocker in the league. I was/am a big OKC supporter, they might be my favorite team in the west at this point since Dallas has gotten old and hurt. But, I do remember the initial reports were Harden wanted the max and Presti wanted to teach him a lesson. I don't follow OKC news religiously or anything but I remember reading that last year.