Who is the greatest rebounder of all-time ?

[DreamRockets]

who is the goat rebounder of all-time ? is it really wilt (22.9) ? he pulled down rebounds like there is no tomorrow but he played when teams averaged 75-80 rebounds per game compared to the usual 45-50 rpg teams average in the modern era, same for russell.

maybe baylor with 14.4 rpg at only 6'5" ? he played in the same era as wilt.

barkley was listed at 6'6" but everybody who has seen him knows he was more like 6'3", he averaged 11.7 rpg in 1073 official regular season games.

is it rodman who averaged over 17 and 18 rebounds for a few seasons at 6'7" and 13.1 in his career ?

is it moses malone who is the all-time leader in offensive rebounds and lead the league several times as well ?

does kevin garnett deserve to be mentioned in this list ?

pick one :) or suggest one you think deserves to be mentioned here if he isn't.

[DreamRockets]

Rodman.

/End thread.

thanks for the insightful post, good arguments and logic all around :rolleyes:

[BFRESH44]

thanks for the insightful post, good arguments and logic all around :rolleyes:

LOL.

Ok, anyone with any knowledge of the history of the game knows that Dennis Rodman (inarguable IMO) is the greatest rebounder in the history of the NBA...

His agreesivness overall on the boards, and his posistion as far as boxing out: Nobody did it better.


I believe his has the record for leading the league in rebounding a consecutive 8-9 years or something like that....He's also has a couple of seasons where he's averaged over 18 boards a game. Doing this all in what was probably the greatest/golden era of Basketball.



Is that better for ya?

[DreamRockets]

yeah, thats the kind of insight i was asking for but this:



Ok, anyone with any knowledge of the history of the game knows that Dennis Rodman (inarguable IMO) is the greatest rebounder in the history of the NBA...

holds absolutely no water, many think wilt is the greatest rebounder of all-time, in fact most people do which is why i made this thread and started it "is it really wilt......."

nothing in the nba is inarguable, only facts are inarguable, like who has the most points, rebounds or who has the highest scoring average or the most mvp awards, etc.

[GOBB]

yeah, thats the kind of insight i was asking for but this:



holds absolutely no water, many think wilt is the greatest rebounder of all-time, in fact most people do which is why i made this thread and started it "is it really wilt......."

Holds no water but you exposed Wilt's rebounding avg by pointing out the period in which he played...team rebounding avg were much higher then compared to now.

[DreamRockets]

sure, but some still think he is the greatest rebounder ever, and we can only assume rodman would average 25 rpg even playing in wilt's days.

for me russell, wilt, rodman, moses could all be considered the best rebounder of alltime.

[BFRESH44]

yeah, thats the kind of insight i was asking for but this:



holds absolutely no water, many think wilt is the greatest rebounder of all-time, in fact most people do which is why i made this thread and started it "is it really wilt......."



Chamberlin was a man amongst boys in his day...There was really no one who even came close to matching his physical ablilty and size(sans Bill Russel really)...So he sort of had some "by default" rebounding titles IMO..

Not like I can give (or pretty much anyone on this board really) a valid opinion on Wilt because I never seen the dude play...

But I did watch Dennis Rodman. And him playing in a more modernized game of basketball, with better athletes, dominanting the boards gives him the edge for the greatest rebounder ever IMO. The Worm lead the league in the rebounding for 7 consecutive years(just looked it up). I don't believe Wilt ever did that(despite his overall sheer domination as an overall player/center in his era)...

[GOBB]

sure, but some still think he is the greatest rebounder ever, and we can only assume rodman would average 25 rpg even playing in wilt's days.

for me russell, wilt, rodman, moses could all be considered the best rebounder of alltime.

Well you'll never a total agreement with anything when it comes to the game of basketball. AS far as the "....best of all time?" categories.

I think Rodman was the best rebounder of all time. We limit it to just rebounding and ignore everything else which i think at times comes into play with peoples decisions then ehh I think Rodman wins out. He just knew how to position himself, knew when to jump, how to keep a ball alive vs a bigger, stronger and/or taller opponent. Also just an awareness of where the ball would come off if it missed. Split second decision to react and he mastered that reaction. You can call it guessing right but when you guess right way too many times it is no longer a guess to me.

I think people confuse Russells defense with him being the best rebounder since defense usually entails rebounding along with other things. And Wilt's avg just stand out & jump out to people. But I never saw Wilt/Russell rebound the ball like I have Rodmans entire career. So hopefully those picking Wilt/Russell have saw enough footage, and actual games to make an argument.

[DreamRockets]

if an argument can be made for rodman what about barkley ? he averaged no less than 10.1 rpg and as much as 14.6 rpg for 15 consecutive years, had he averaged 1.4 rebounds as a rookie he would have averaged over 10 rpg in each one of his 16 seasons and i think he would be the only player in modern era to do that, dude was 6'3 or 6'4 in real life even though he is listed at 6'6 in nba.com.

russell was the best shot blocker in the league, not the best face-to-face defender, nate thurmond was the best defensive 5 at the time.

great arguments bfresh and gobb.

[lakers-city]

either moses or rodman IMO, rodman had the better instincts and eye for rebounding i have ever seen, moses was a beast on the offensive boards, there are too many good-not-great rebounders in nba history as well (the likes of kareem, hakeem, mutombo, shaq, duncan, reed come to mind) then you have the best of the best in moses, rodman, barkley, baylor.

giants among boys like wilt and russell rank somewhere else, don't know exactly where, in a paralel league maybe.

[RainierBeachPoet]

is it moses malone who is the all-time leader in offensive rebounds and lead the league several times as well ?
.

moses was an awesome nba player

people who remember moses will say too that he wasnt the best shooter on the team by any means.

if you watched him play, he got a lot of offensive rebounds because he would miss point blank putbacks, get his own rebound, miss again, get his own rebound..... he could get three offensive boards on one trip downcourt!

he was a monster on the boards and i would take him on my team anyday because of it, but his offensive rebound stats are a bit inflated imo

[lakers-city]

i remember that as well, moses would miss lots of easy shots and then grab the reb and miss again, the guy was the master of rebounding his own miss and slaming it home.

[GOBB]

I dont think Moses did it on purpose. Just misjudged put backs.

[lakers-city]

i don't think so either, but as rainierbeachpoet said, he was never a good shooter and would miss easy shots.

[KWALI]

Rodman was never a better rebounder than Charles Barkley......he just did nothing else....

WILT, MOSES, RUSSELL, KAREEM, BARKS even Lucas and then Rodman

[GOBB]

Rodman was never a better rebounder than Charles Barkley......he just did nothing else....

WILT, MOSES, RUSSELL, KAREEM, BARKS even Lucas and then Rodman

Oh boy so you're gonna rip off Sir Charles quote "If i focused just on rebounding I could avg a lot too". :sleeping

[20 Dimes A Game]

Dennis Rodman.
All he wanted to do was rebound,he never wanted to score,just rebound.

End Of.

[KWALI]

Oh boy so you're gonna rip off Sir Charles quote "If i focused just on rebounding I could avg a lot too". :sleeping

You a little younger than me but go to SIXER Barkley Round Mound of Rebound...and then to late Barkley with the Rockets..... He was killing boards.

At simply the skill of rebounding. not stats. Barkley is better...he took up more space on the floor and went up and got the ball better than Rodman and his tipping style. Match them up in a game and tell either one to erase each other on the boards Barkley Wins......Actually I should add Karl Malone up top too maybe Buck WIlliam although I wouldn't put BUCK aheadof Rodman but on his level...Jayson Williams.

I think Rodman's post D and his ability to play mind games that's where Rodman was greatest of the great....

[DCL]

the numbers point to wilt. 27 boards a game. wilt did that while also being asked to be a scoring machine. and he probably had at least two guys boxing him out everytime he attacked the glass.

sure, it was the 60s, and that era always gets downplayed for lack of muscle and athletic ability.

but do you think a guy like barkley or rodman could had averaged 27boards a game in that era if he was just forced to focus on rebounding?

maybe. maybe not. but what if wilt was also asked to focus on just rebounding during that era as well?

would he had averaged 35 or even 40 boards a game? what if... what if....

[GOBB]

You a little younger than me but go to SIXER Barkley Round Mound of Rebound...and then to late Barkley with the Rockets..... He was killing boards.

At simply the skill of rebounding. not stats. Barkley is better...he took up more space on the floor and went up and got the ball better than Rodman and his tipping style. Match them up in a game and tell either one to erase each other on the boards Barkley Wins......Actually I should add Karl Malone up top too maybe Buck WIlliam although I wouldn't put BUCK aheadof Rodman but on his level...Jayson Williams.

I think Rodman's post D and his ability to play mind games that's where Rodman was greatest of the great....

Karl Malone? :oldlol:

Just stop. I'll concede Barkley can be argued. But Karl? Buck? Jayson? No.

[Psileas]

If someone adjusts Wilt's and Russell's numbers in Rodman's era, their rebounding numbers still rival or beat Rodman's. A main reason for this though would be due to the more minutes they played. So, judging from Rodman's rebounding rate, he should rank higher.
But his one-dimensional style of play is what prevents him from doing so. Especially after his Detroit days, it seemed that the guy would never leave the paint, even to guard players with a good outside shot like Horry. Now, Wilt and Russell didn't leave the paint either, but for sure they weren't focusing on just specific numbers. Even Wilt, who always wanted to collect stats, never cared solely about rebounding. Russell hardly did anyway.
Wilt also had to do tons of other things, including taking turnaround/fadeaway, "low-offensively-reboundable" shots (something which, to an extent, was his own fault) and blocking shots, which affected his rebounding--compare to Rodman who'd hardly ever shoot in a game and was a poor shot-blocker.
Finally: Some people hold it against Wilt in the GOAT discussions that his scoring fell during the playoffs. But so did Rodman's playoff rebounding. I'm sure not many know this, but Rodman loses to Wilt and Russell in playoff rebounding, even after the "playing time" and "era pace" adjustments.

Overall, I conclude that he can rank anywhere between No1 and 3 of all-time. Simple stats say he's not No1. Advanced stats say he is. Other additional factors say both are arguable.

[RainierBeachPoet]

one of the most awesome impact rebounders in the league was wes unseld. he averaged 14 rpg for his career

for those who havenet seen him play, my best description is: imagine barkely a few inches taller with wider shoulders

both wes, charles, russell and rodman had an extraordinary DESIRE to rebound. this type of will cannot be taught and these guys were so fun to watch because of it

[lakers-city]

Match them up in a game and tell either one to erase each other on the boards Barkley Wins

and you know this because ?


.....Actually I should add Karl Malone up top too maybe Buck WIlliam although I wouldn't put BUCK aheadof Rodman but on his level...Jayson Williams.


malone ? williams ?!?! :roll:

omfg just stop.

[lakers-city]

one of the most awesome impact rebounders in the league was wes unseld. he averaged 14 rpg for his career

for those who havenet seen him play, my best description is: imagine barkely a few inches taller with wider shoulders

both wes, charles, russell and rodman had an extraordinary DESIRE to rebound. this type of will cannot be taught and these guys were so fun to watch because of it

i agree, when discussing the greatest forwards ever people forget about wes for some reason.

[lakers-city]

Finally: Some people hold it against Wilt in the GOAT discussions that his scoring fell during the playoffs. But so did Rodman's playoff rebounding. I'm sure not many know this, but Rodman loses to Wilt and Russell in playoff rebounding, even after the "playing time" and "era pace" adjustments.




not that, i don't care how much he specifically averaged, but how he failed to take over offensivelly, how he wasn't clutch, how he underperformed in big games, thats what people hold against him, few arguable GOATs have underpeformed in as much important nba finals games which resulted in losses as wilt did.

[Psileas]

not that, i don't care how much he specifically averaged, but how he failed to take over offensivelly, how he wasn't clutch, how he underperformed in big games, thats what people hold against him, few arguable GOATs have underpeformed in as much important nba finals games which resulted in losses as wilt did.

Basically, I just wanted to draw a parallel here (after all, it's only rebounding what we're talking about), saying that Rodman underperformed plenty of times in the playoffs, so, if some people judge Wilt (or others) from some of their playoff underperformances, they should do the same about Rodman, when it comes to rebounding. Check Rodman's rebounding in the 1997 or 1998Finals, for example. It's inferior not only to Wilt's or Russell's but to some of his contemporaries, as well. Rodman was just lucky to constantly have a couple of players better than him to fill in the gaps and lead him to titles.

[lakers-city]

Basically, I just wanted to draw a parallel here (after all, it's only rebounding what we're talking about), saying that Rodman underperformed plenty of times in the playoffs, so, if some people judge Wilt (or others) from some of their playoff underperformances, they should do the same about Rodman, when it comes to rebounding. Check Rodman's rebounding in the 1997 or 1998Finals, for example. It's inferior not only to Wilt's or Russell's but to some of his contemporaries, as well. Rodman was just lucky to constantly have a couple of players better than him to fill in the gaps and lead him to titles.


yeah, of course, no one, by any means, is saying rodman > wilt overall just because he was arguably a better rebounder, despite his underperformances in some important playoff games wilt did lead his teams to 2 nba championships and those are 2 of the greatest teams ever no less, rodman never lead anybody anywhere,wilt was a beast both offensivelly (all his career) and defensivelly (his late 76ers years and lakers years), rodman was a one dimensional player who gave you nothing on offense.

[KWALI]

and you know this because ?



malone ? williams ?!?! :roll:

omfg just stop.

Becuz I've watched them matched up against each other...remember the SPURS and the SUNS matched up against each other....of course if you never take an inital shot you can lead the L in rebounding ...it's like Ben Wallace now...is he a better rebounder than Elton Brand TD or KG? **** no...

You simpletons who do some % of team rebounding ish and go from there are number crunchers you should join a board for statisticians...not basketball becuz you know little about it.

If you for one minute think that KARL MALONE couldn't physically dominate Dennis Rodman your a fool.... The only advantager Rodman had on everyone is he wasn't concerned with anything other than rebounding...at all...Jayson Williams is the only one who I'd take out but I remeber him giong crazy on boards for a time....I'd also say Kevin Willis if he didn't play until he got old...ATL Willis wasa crazy athelet just had shiotty small hands

[lakers-city]

ben wallace is deffinitelly a better rebounder than brand, you should be laughing at yourself for suggesting otherwise, ben wallace outrebounded shaq in 04 and that post season shaq had outrebounded yao, duncan and garnett , i don't think wallace is better than duncan at rebounding but im not sure, he is not better than garnett by any means, but he is a better offensive rebounder than both of them and thats something you can always count on.

sure karl malone could dominate rodman 1 on 1 if they tried to outrebound each other, but phuck this isn't tennis or golf, 1 on 1 crap doesn't mean jack, in their proffesional nba careers rodman rebounder better than malone, is that really hard to understand ? if i had to make an all-rebounding all-time team karl malone wouldn't make my bench.

[dejordan]

i missed wilt and russ, but as psilias said, if you adjust for their style / era of play their numbers are still right there with dennis, and they had more responsibilities. i watched every season that rodman, barkley, hakeem, shaq, and garnett played, and they are the best rebounders i've seen. charles and dennis had the most desire, and i always thought barkley was the best between the two because he was more able to just go and get a board without having to boxout and manuveur (his size and strength were a natural box out and he had that insane leaping ability before his back went). dennis though was more dedicated to going after every single board and never got tired, so he's got a good argument. hakeem and garnett were amazing because of their range getting rebounds. so often hakeem would leap out at shooter to disturb the shot and then recover to outmanuvuer his own man for the board. garnett is even more impressive because he plays defense on the perimeter so often. the amount of distance he covers coming to the ball is amazing. shaq just took up so much and was really explosive off the floor. he could get 11 boards without trying. moses was awesome on the offensive boards, but as rainierbeachpoet mentioned, he sort of padded his stats by using the self-pass off the board move. other great rebounders of my time: webber - best hands i ever saw, good timing, and terrific athleticism in his youth; oakley - took up space, fought for every inch, and wasn't afraid to hurt somebody to get that ball; and karl malone was just so strong and determined. amazing how well he went from boarding on d to leading a break on o (though that doesn't factor in). i guess my favorite rebounder to watch was barkley, but i don't see any real separation between him and dennis.

[lakers-city]

shaq just took up so much and was really explosive off the floor. he could get 11 boards without trying.

and that, ironically, is one of very few things that i disliked about him despite being one of my all-time favorite players, if shaq had tried 100% he could have been a 15 rpg rebounder, dude already holds the record for most offensive rebounds in the playoffs with 816 but he could have been better on the defensive end.

[dejordan]

and that, ironically, is one of very few things that i disliked about him despite being one of my all-time favorite players, if shaq had tried 100% he could have been a 15 rpg rebounder, dude already holds the record for most offensive rebounds in the playoffs with 816 but he could have been better on the defensive end.
he definitely gave up on some boards he could have taken pretty easily. i could never tell if it was just laziness or if he was trying to stay out of foul trouble.

[Timmy D for MVP]

1. Wilt Chamberlien- 22.9
2. Bill Russel- 22.5
3. Bob Pettit- 16.2

The only argument here should be between Russell and Chamberlien.

[Timmy D for MVP]

While I was looking up stats I came across something interesting.

Tim Duncan is:

#16 All-Time in rebounds per game
#23 All-Time in points per game
#12 All-Time in blocks per game.

:bowdown:

[lakers-city]

1. Wilt Chamberlien- 22.9
2. Bill Russel- 22.5
3. Bob Pettit- 16.2

The only argument here should be between Russell and Chamberlien.

again, we already stated how their numbers are inflated thanks to 25-30 extra available rebounds per game compared to the modern era, if you adjust the numbers and minutes they are barely better than rodman or barkley, if better at all.

[Timmy D for MVP]

again, we already stated how their numbers are inflated thanks to 25-30 extra available rebounds per game compared to the modern era, if you adjust the numbers and minutes they are barely better than rodman or barkley, if better at all.

Right but as the game grows so should the players. We can't dock those guys because of inflation because if that were true everone from that era would have inflated numbers (at least more than two). I mean, IMO if those guys played today they wouldn't come close to what they did, but I still think they are the best rebounders ever.

[lakers-city]

While I was looking up stats I came across something interesting.

Tim Duncan is:

#16 All-Time in rebounds per game
#23 All-Time in points per game
#12 All-Time in blocks per game.

:bowdown:

oh c'mon, duncan ? dude is not even the best rebounder among active players much less all-time, wallace, kg, shaq and d-howard all have a better eye for rebounding, garnett flat out rebounds much more than duncan does and the other 3 are (in shaq's case, were) much better offensive rebounders than duncan has ever been.

[T-Mac 1]

Barkley >>> Rodman

[geeWiz15]

Rodman.

the dude defines rebounding. anyone who thinks Wilt would get more... I don't know what to tell you. how could anyone get more boards than Rodman? have you watched the guy play? he is EVERYWHERE.

[lakers-city]

wilt had the advantage in size and unmatched strenght back in the day, in the modern era he would play 7'0ers every game and he would have little advantage in strenght.

[KWALI]

ben wallace is deffinitelly a better rebounder than brand, you should be laughing at yourself for suggesting otherwise, ben wallace outrebounded shaq in 04 and that post season shaq had outrebounded yao, duncan and garnett , i don't think wallace is better than duncan at rebounding but im not sure, he is not better than garnett by any means, but he is a better offensive rebounder than both of them and thats something you can always count on.

sure karl malone could dominate rodman 1 on 1 if they tried to outrebound each other, but phuck this isn't tennis or golf, 1 on 1 crap doesn't mean jack, in their proffesional nba careers rodman rebounder better than malone, is that really hard to understand ? if i had to make an all-rebounding all-time team karl malone wouldn't make my bench.

not one on one with no one else on the floor...I mean with Karl Malone's single intention to grab every rebound in the game. That was Rodman's but no one else's....that's why he's even in this discussion...If guys like Elvin Hayes, Kareem actually no more names you know the guys....if they decided no shooting just rebounds, no breaking and beating my defender down the floor just rebounds..etc...they'd beat out Rodman I am pretty sure.

If we are only talking about who actually rebounded the best then there is no dicussion at all numbers already bear it out....I thought we were talking about their Ability/Talent. Production is related to ability but there is ability without production.....If Wilt didn't do it himself wuold you have believed from just his PHILA time that he was a great passer assist man. Probably not.

Ben Wallace gets more rebounds than Brand for the same reason Rodman got more than D-Rob... he doesn't take jumpers...more than once a game and never the initial shot and he camps out on every shot... not a better shot blocker either

[KWALI]

Rodman.

the dude defines rebounding. anyone who thinks Wilt would get more... I don't know what to tell you. how could anyone get more boards than Rodman? have you watched the guy play? he is EVERYWHERE.

Wilt is everywhere at 7'1 260-285......believe me size matters

[lakers-city]

not one on one with no one else on the floor...I mean with Karl Malone's single intention to grab every rebound in the game. That was Rodman's but no one else's....that's why he's even in this discussion...If guys like Elvin Hayes, Kareem actually no more names you know the guys....if they decided no shooting just rebounds, no breaking and beating my defender down the floor just rebounds..etc...they'd beat out Rodman I am pretty sure.

If we are only talking about who actually rebounded the best then there is no dicussion at all numbers already bear it out....I thought we were talking about their Ability/Talent. Production is related to ability but there is ability without production.....If Wilt didn't do it himself wuold you have believed from just his PHILA time that he was a great passer assist man. Probably not.

Ben Wallace gets more rebounds than Brand for the same reason Rodman got more than D-Rob... he doesn't take jumpers...more than once a game and never the initial shot and he camps out on every shot... not a better shot blocker either

i wonder where do you get this impression or on what proof you base this assumptions ? :confusedshrug: the idea that if a scorer/rebounder focused solely on rebounding his rpg numbers would sky rocket has no base and in fact history tells us things are the other way around, when wilt was focusing solely on rebounding in his laker year he didn't rebound better than he did in philadelphia, when barkley focused solely on rebounding in houston he didn't rebound better than he did in piladelphia or phoenix, in fact their rebounding numbers went down, not up, and karl was never the rebounder barkley was anyway, so bring evidence to back up your claims, i already have.

and please, dennis rodman was, from top to bottom, a better rebounder than robinson, stop embarassing yourself here, robinson lead the league in rebounding only once and it was like 13 or 12.9 rpg, he was lucky hakeem was injured that season and missed too many games or HO would have lead the league in rebounding that year, robinson averaged 13 rpg once and above 12 rpg only once or twice, i don't know how the dude even enters the dicussion.

[Derek]

Wilt and Dennis Rodman. Can't go by all-time because of different generations.

[Wuxia]

I think I have had this discussion with Kwali before. I don't how he can possibly think that he is actually making any sense. Kwali believes any scrub can average 18 rebounds per game if they only concentrated on rebounding. The guy is a complete retard.

I won't comment on Wilt or Russel but I have seen Rodman his entire career, and he is by far the best rebounder I have ever seen. Barkley comes second.

[KWALI]

I think I have had this discussion with Kwali before. I don't how he can possibly think that he is actually making any sense. Kwali believes any scrub can average 18 rebounds per game if they only concentrated on rebounding. The guy is a complete retard.

I won't comment on Wilt or Russel but I have seen Rodman his entire career, and he is by far the best rebounder I have ever seen. Barkley comes second.

Yep....Karl Malone..Charles Barkley...Buck Willams....yep they were scrubs...**** why were they ever on an All-STAR team?

You guys are ****ing ridiculous....which player that I mentioned that has more abilty then Rodman is a scrub exactly Wuxia?

[lakers-city]

again, if malone or barkley could have averaged 18 rebounds, they would have, the fact that they scored more should have lead to more offensive rebounds than rodman, which isn't the case.

[lakers-city]

You guys are ****ing ridiculous....which player that I mentioned that has more abilty then Rodman is a scrub exactly Wuxia?

no one, but none of them is a better rebounder than rodman either., you suggested jayson williams earlier, please.

[gts]

Rodman ranks 19th on the all time NBA total rebounds list, i would think if a player is going to be considered the greatest rebounder of all time he should at least be in the top 10... especially if he is going to concentrate his game on defense and rebounding

[KWALI]

i wonder where do you get this impression or on what proof you base this assumptions ? :confusedshrug: the idea that if a scorer/rebounder focused solely on rebounding his rpg numbers would sky rocket has no base and in fact history tells us things are the other way around, when wilt was focusing solely on rebounding in his laker year he didn't rebound better than he did in philadelphia, when barkley focused solely on rebounding in houston he didn't rebound better than he did in piladelphia or phoenix, in fact their rebounding numbers went down, not up, and karl was never the rebounder barkley was anyway, so bring evidence to back up your claims, i already have.

and please, dennis rodman was, from top to bottom, a better rebounder than robinson, stop embarassing yourself here, robinson lead the league in rebounding only once and it was like 13 or 12.9 rpg, he was lucky hakeem was injured that season and missed too many games or HO would have lead the league in rebounding that year, robinson averaged 13 rpg once and above 12 rpg only once or twice, i don't know how the dude even enters the dicussion.

When Barkley was hobled and no longer a full-time 1st option he was a shadow of himself and as much as WILT could still compete when he got older he wasn't nearly as quick as he was when he was young and he didn't concentrate on rebounding alone no where near to what Rodman did he just gave up being a scorer he still tried to set up people and help defend....Rodman wasn't as much a help defender (especially not blocking shots) you always had to get after him for that. He always figured he covered his guy without much help why should he be rotating outta position for someone else's **** up. Even Rodman had more human rebounding numbers when he was a more rounded player...if your gonna use the results of greats way past their prime against them why bother even discuss it.

I've already conceded that if we are talking about production there is no reason to discuss this it's done. I was under the impression abilty was in question.

Again for people who haven't seen all these guy's play there always has to be some statistical outlay to provide you neophytes hard "proof" but there is no proof..the numbers you throw out only measure production. I am not going to discus that why bother there's no debate production is black and white in front of you...

I misunderstood I thought you were discussing players ability

[lakers-city]

total numbers are bs and they have to do more with the amount of played games than averages, check rodman's and barkley's rebounding averages and then check their phisycal sature for god's sake.

[lakers-city]

I misunderstood I thought you were discussing players ability

that's what im discussing here, if you are gonna tell me with a straight face malone had a better eye or better instincts for rebounding than dennis rodman there is little i can do but laugh at you, wilt had the size and unmatched strenght, so if you wanna talk about abilities leave him out of the discussion, he didn't have the instincts of a dennis rodman or even a moses malone.

[RainierBeachPoet]

i missed wilt and russ, but as psilias said, if you adjust for their style / era of play their numbers are still right there with dennis, and they had more responsibilities. i watched every season that rodman, barkley, hakeem, shaq, and garnett played, and they are the best rebounders i've seen. charles and dennis had the most desire, and i always thought barkley was the best between the two because he was more able to just go and get a board without having to boxout and manuveur (his size and strength were a natural box out and he had that insane leaping ability before his back went). dennis though was more dedicated to going after every single board and never got tired, so he's got a good argument. hakeem and garnett were amazing because of their range getting rebounds. so often hakeem would leap out at shooter to disturb the shot and then recover to outmanuvuer his own man for the board. garnett is even more impressive because he plays defense on the perimeter so often. the amount of distance he covers coming to the ball is amazing. shaq just took up so much and was really explosive off the floor. he could get 11 boards without trying. moses was awesome on the offensive boards, but as rainierbeachpoet mentioned, he sort of padded his stats by using the self-pass off the board move. other great rebounders of my time: webber - best hands i ever saw, good timing, and terrific athleticism in his youth; oakley - took up space, fought for every inch, and wasn't afraid to hurt somebody to get that ball; and karl malone was just so strong and determined. amazing how well he went from boarding on d to leading a break on o (though that doesn't factor in). i guess my favorite rebounder to watch was barkley, but i don't see any real separation between him and dennis.


as usual, some very solid observations djrdn!

as important as stats are, and i use them to make various arguments myself, i would add an important factor to the mix here. the greatest rebounders get the rebounds when they are most needed for the team


just as it is the timeliness of scoring that makes for a clutch/money scorer, i believe that there is a parallel with rebounding: when your team needs the ball after a missed shot, who gets the ball?

i suggest the following and will let you comment:


russell
wes unseld
hakeem
rodman
barkely


if you need the ball on an offensive or defensive rebound at the end of the game, who do you want under the boards for your team?

this is what i call an "impact rebounder"-- the guy whose rebounds make an impact on the game

[KWALI]

again, if malone or barkley could have averaged 18 rebounds, they would have, the fact that they scored more should have lead to more offensive rebounds than rodman, which isn't the case.

How does taking more shots put you in better position to rebound? especially in Barkley's case? I know this becuz I play bigger than I am and when you are giving up inches on the floor you can't leave the ground early...part of the reason Rodman tip stuff to himself ..once you fully commit it's hard to get back down plant and go again. Barkley fully elevating on his jumpers and fading away on many throws him totally outta the play for a Off rebound.

Yeah taking a shot and knowing how you missed can be an advantage but only if the player's you playing don't follow the basics (like SHAQ) and they don't box out.

Karl Malone is a bit different he relied on his strength a bit more than everyone else but then again he had more than everyone else.....no one can keep him from getting the position he wants...but he again take a ot of fadeway and falling down shots in the post.... Now imagine he almost never shot the ball and instead of going in their to wipe out guys for postion to score did that for rebounds.....I don't think Karl Malone is better More like I think he could rebound with Rodman be in his League.

I do think Barkley, Russell and Wilt were better without any equivocation.....but you disagree...production atleast doesn't help Barkley he went from RMOR to a scorer...but the other guys WILT even when he was a scorer got more just dominated the glass.

Rodman and Lucas are teh most innovative rebounders and rodman has the most interior defensive and rebounding tricks of anyone ever...he's like the Mchale of rebounding....but I still those three at least were better

[gts]

so if we cannot use numbers, size or athletic abillities to argue one player against another than what is the discussion?

[lakers-city]

so if we cannot use numbers, size or athletic abillities to argue one player against another than what is the discussion?

i didn't say that dumbass, i said is not entirely accurate to use TOTAL numbers because the amount of played games change too much, rodman played only 911 games compared to karl malone 1476, kareem 1560, moses 1328, hakeem 1238, etc, thats why the numbers per game are a better standard, who said you couldn't use athletic abilities ?

[lakers-city]

How does taking more shots put you in better position to rebound? especially in Barkley's case? I know this becuz I play bigger than I am and when you are giving up inches on the floor you can't leave the ground early...part of the reason Rodman tip stuff to himself ..once you fully commit it's hard to get back down plant and go again. Barkley fully elevating on his jumpers and fading away on many throws him totally outta the play for a Off rebound.

Yeah taking a shot and knowing how you missed can be an advantage but only if the player's you playing don't follow the basics (like SHAQ) and they don't box out.

Karl Malone is a bit different he relied on his strength a bit more than everyone else but then again he had more than everyone else.....no one can keep him from getting the position he wants...but he again take a ot of fadeway and falling down shots in the post.... Now imagine he almost never shot the ball and instead of going in their to wipe out guys for postion to score did that for rebounds.....I don't think Karl Malone is better More like I think he could rebound with Rodman be in his League.

I do think Barkley, Russell and Wilt were better without any equivocation.....but you disagree...production atleast doesn't help Barkley he went from RMOR to a scorer...but the other guys WILT even when he was a scorer got more just dominated the glass.

Rodman and Lucas are teh most innovative rebounders and rodman has the most interior defensive and rebounding tricks of anyone ever...he's like the Mchale of rebounding....but I still those three at least were better

in karl's case you are right, he took a lot of jumpers because his shot was realiable but barkley couldn't shoot worth shyt and played most of his game 6 -8 ft away from the rim.

[gts]

i didn't say that dumbass, i said is not enirely accurate to use TOTAL numbers because the amount of played games change too much, rodman played only 911 games compared to karl malone 1476, kareem 1560, moses 1328, hakeem 1238, etc, thats why the numbers per game are a better standard, who said you couldn't use athletic abilities ?


wilt had the size and unmatched strenght, so if you wanna talk about abilities leave him out of the discussion,


maybe i misunderstood your position?

[lakers-city]

maybe i misunderstood your position?

kwali said he wasn't talking about production, but about ability, and then said wilt was a better rebounder than rodman when in fact wilt relied more on his size than his instincts to grab rebounds, i never said you couldn't use size :confusedshrug: you are welcome to have your points of view as long as you can back them up.

[Jailblazers7]

as usual, some very solid observations djrdn!

as important as stats are, and i use them to make various arguments myself, i would add an important factor to the mix here. the greatest rebounders get the rebounds when they are most needed for the team


just as it is the timeliness of scoring that makes for a clutch/money scorer, i believe that there is a parallel with rebounding: when your team needs the ball after a missed shot, who gets the ball?

i suggest the following and will let you comment:


russell
wes unseld
hakeem
rodman
barkely


if you need the ball on an offensive or defensive rebound at the end of the game, who do you want under the boards for your team?

this is what i call an "impact rebounder"-- the guy whose rebounds make an impact on the game


That is an excellent question RainierBeachPoet. I know about Unselds rebounding excellence but i have never really watched any of his games so i cant really comment about him. If i need one rebound i would go with either Russell or Rodman. Both used a combination of athleticism, positioning, and determination to become excellent rebounders. They both also had excellent instincts and read the ball well coming off the rim.

[Zan Tabak]

I gotta go with Rodman.. I never seen Wilt play but the competition that Rodman delt with was for sure at a higher level..

[gts]

production is the result of having the ability to do something...I'm going to say russell, he led the league or was second in rebounds every season, only twice did he finish in 3rd.. he is second all time with 22.4 rebounds per game, he had not only size and agility but great instincts for the ball...

[-primetime-]

IMO almost all of Wilt's records should just be thrown out...

he scored 100 pts in one game and he sat out the last 2 or 3 minutes of that game...

he racked up stats against a bunch of players that couldn't even dunk...his opponents were a complete joke.

Rodman...period

[dejordan]

the greatest rebounders get the rebounds when they are most needed for the team


just as it is the timeliness of scoring that makes for a clutch/money scorer, i believe that there is a parallel with rebounding: when your team needs the ball after a missed shot, who gets the ball?

i suggest the following and will let you comment:


russell
wes unseld
hakeem
rodman
barkely


if you need the ball on an offensive or defensive rebound at the end of the game, who do you want under the boards for your team?


again, i didn't see russ or wes, so for me the answer is definitely charles. it just seemed like charles came up with huge, timely rebounds no matter who he was playing against.

[picc84]

Its gotta be kobe.

[Timmy D for MVP]

oh c'mon, duncan ? dude is not even the best rebounder among active players much less all-time, wallace, kg, shaq and d-howard all have a better eye for rebounding, garnett flat out rebounds much more than duncan does and the other 3 are (in shaq's case, were) much better offensive rebounders than duncan has ever been.

I didn't say he was the best rebounder. I said he's ef'n good. Period! Read the messages before you reply.

[srv_fan]

in karl's case you are right, he took a lot of jumpers because his shot was realiable but barkley couldn't shoot worth shyt and played most of his game 6 -8 ft away from the rim.

Barkley couldn't shoot? Did you ever watch him play? He was incredibly skilled in virtually every facet of the game, and had an amazing jump-shot for a power-player. Sh!t, he had consistent range out to three by his Suns days, which is incredible considering his post dominance.

[RainierBeachPoet]

again, i didn't see russ or wes, so for me the answer is definitely charles. it just seemed like charles came up with huge, timely rebounds no matter who he was playing against.

that was the difference in the 1993 west conf finals against the sonics--- charles huge WILL to win which translated into controlling the boards


and he did it all at 6'4"!

my memories of unseld are the same-- except he did it playing center at about 6'6"!!!

[dejordan]

that was the difference in the 1993 west conf finals against the sonics--- charles huge WILL to win which translated into controlling the boards


and he did it all at 6'4"!

my memories of unseld are the same-- except he did it playing center at about 6'6"!!!
i think that was the last year charles was truly healthy too (his own fault for not keeping himself in shape and an inevitable result of launching so much weight so high in the air again and again). he had a couple great playoff runs the next two years, but you could see he was tearing teams up without his explosion (did score 56 on cweb!).

the argument i'd make for rodman is just his commitment to dominating the boards. he studied film of mj and scottie shooting to see where they normally missed and what kinds of bounces their shots took from different spots on the floor. he might not have charles' innate ability to just go get the ball, but as a cerebral rebounder, he was unparalleled.

[lakers-city]

if im not mistaken barkley had 44/24 in one of the games of that series rainierbeachpoet mentions.

[RainierBeachPoet]

if im not mistaken barkley had 44/24 in one of the games of that series rainierbeachpoet mentions.

game 7 i believe

what kills sonic fans to remember that game was the free throw discrepancy- it was off the charts (anyone got the numbers?)

i dont remember the numbers but the suns won that game on the line; it caused many of us to yell "conspiracy" because we all knew that cbs wanted a jordan-barkely showdown for the ratings...

[KWALI]

i think that was the last year charles was truly healthy too (his own fault for not keeping himself in shape and an inevitable result of launching so much weight so high in the air again and again). he had a couple great playoff runs the next two years, but you could see he was tearing teams up without his explosion (did score 56 on cweb!).

the argument i'd make for rodman is just his commitment to dominating the boards. he studied film of mj and scottie shooting to see where they normally missed and what kinds of bounces their shots took from different spots on the floor. he might not have charles' innate ability to just go get the ball, but as a cerebral rebounder, he was unparalleled.

Actually there is a dude named LUCAS his precursor

[KWALI]

game 7 i believe

what kills sonic fans to remember that game was the free throw discrepancy- it was off the charts (anyone got the numbers?)

i dont remember the numbers but the suns won that game on the line; it caused many of us to yell "conspiracy" because we all knew that cbs wanted a jordan-barkely showdown for the ratings...

You mean NBC? CBS is the 80's

[dejordan]

game 7 i believe

what kills sonic fans to remember that game was the free throw discrepancy- it was off the charts (anyone got the numbers?)

i dont remember the numbers but the suns won that game on the line; it caused many of us to yell "conspiracy" because we all knew that cbs wanted a jordan-barkely showdown for the ratings...
i think it was nbc at that time. charles calls that the best game he ever played, but he definitely got some help from the refs on that win! of course us chuck fans chalked it up to his aggressive play:rockon:

[BBallBeatwriter]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but there IS NO SUCH THING AS GREATEST in anything of all-time. You had Barkley, Russell, Wilt, Moses.
So you cannot EVER say Greatest of all-time, because you have to factor in thier respective eras and thier circumstance. There is no such thing as greatest scorer of all-time, gretest team of all-time, ect, for the simple fact that you don't know how one great player who is regauarded as "greatest" might fair in a different era. Example: Dr. J says that if he had the shoe technology players have today, and the way the game is being called for perimeter players, he would be considered better than he is, even GREATEST OF ALL-TIME. another example:Russell said that Oscar Robertson is G.O.A.T. over MJ

[RainierBeachPoet]

You mean NBC? CBS is the 80's

my bad--- yes nbc

i often get 1980s flashbacks

[Coach A]

Having seen almost all of these players I'd have to say the greatest rebounder of all-time is Wilt Chamberlain. Many of you are discrediting him because of the era and how he dominated short white guys. But the thing is if he played in today's era he would be around 7"4 and very athletic because of all the weight training, technology, and knowledge we have today. Wilt Chamberlain dominated the competetion he was given, and thats what he should be measured by. If Rodman grew up in the 50s and played in the 60s, he wouldn't be as muscular or even as tall. Wilt was without a doubt the most athletic big man in his era, and he would likely be that in any era. He is the most athletic player I have seen period. I am not saying Wilt would Dominate today like he did in the 60s, because there is more competetion and more people are playing basketball. But his size and athleticness, he would still have that edge over everyone.

The 2nd big reason Wilt is the greatest rebounder of all-time, well you all have already touched upon it a bit. Wilt did more than just rebound. He went to block shots, while Rodman all he did was go up and position for the rebounds. Which he did well no doubt about that, especially for his size. But when you are blocking shots your not going to get nearly as much rebounds. Look at Mark Eaton for example. How many times did he win a rebounding title? Was he ever Top 3? He probably wasn't even Top 10 in the league in reobunds as much as he led the whole league in blocks. Barkley lke Rodman, has great rebounding ability, but because of Wilt's length and athleticness, I'd give Wilt the edge over him as well. And I didn't see Barkley go up for too many blocks either.

[BBallBeatwriter]

". But the thing is if he played in today's era he would be around 7"4 . If Rodman grew up in the 50s and played in the 60s, he wouldn't be as muscular or even as tall."


How the HELL can anyone who calls themselves a coach, let alone a knowledgable patron of the game say something as ridiculous as this. How would time and a different era effect the actual height of a player. Last time I checked, it was genetics, not time. I know the evolution of man is leaning toward hieght, but in the amount of time between the 60's and now, human evolution HAS NOT given us two or three extra inches. Try 500 + years

[Coach A]

". But the thing is if he played in today's era he would be around 7"4 . If Rodman grew up in the 50s and played in the 60s, he wouldn't be as muscular or even as tall."


How the HELL can anyone who calls themselves a coach, let alone a knowledgable patron of the game say something as ridiculous as this. How would time and a different era effect the actual height of a player. Last time I checked, it was genetics, not time. I know the evolution of man is leaning toward hieght, but in the amount of time between the 60's and now, human evolution HAS NOT given us two or three extra inches. Try 500 + years

Let me ask you a quick question. Is it the same for basketball players? Are basketball players only half a inch taller average compared to the 60s? And once again, there is no doubt that players are much better conditioned and more athletic because of the knowledge and weight training they have today. Wilt would still be the most athletic player today if he had those. Any era, Wilt would be the most athletic basketball player at least according to me

[RainierBeachPoet]

". But the thing is if he played in today's era he would be around 7"4 . If Rodman grew up in the 50s and played in the 60s, he wouldn't be as muscular or even as tall."


How the HELL can anyone who calls themselves a coach, let alone a knowledgable patron of the game say something as ridiculous as this. How would time and a different era effect the actual height of a player. Last time I checked, it was genetics, not time. I know the evolution of man is leaning toward hieght, but in the amount of time between the 60's and now, human evolution HAS NOT given us two or three extra inches. Try 500 + years

i am cracking up over here...

i suspect our honorable "coach" actually may be an ish regular under this alias...

any guesses who it might be?

[Coach A]

You guys must be crazy if you think NBA players were just as tall in the 60s as they are now. The average man might not be much taller but the average athlete is. The average man might not weigh much more now than 60s but the average athlete does. Rainier, I thought you watched the 70s, are you telling me 7 Foot Centers were common as they are now? Don't blame you guys, after all you weren't watching athletes in the 60s

[KWALI]

You guys must be crazy if you think NBA players were just as tall in the 60s as they are now. The average man might not be much taller but the average athlete is. The average man might not weigh much more now than 60s but the average athlete does. Rainier, I thought you watched the 70s, are you telling me 7 Foot Centers were common as they are now? Don't blame you guys, after all you weren't watching athletes in the 60s

height is overrated it's reache and strength where the most important gains have been made...there were plenty of tall players but tall is not synonamous with good. Even now how many true 7 footers are actually that good?

The improvement in conditioning and suplements may have changes things but lets not get caught up over height...

The other thing not related to teh coach is teh way people are throwing around instinct....look there are no instincts in basketball Homo Sapiens didn't instinctly play the pick and role eons ago that's where instinct comes from...

Bball IQ and understanding tha game comes from watching practicing alot and being a quick study. The reason I think many greats could match Rodman is they didn't have teh luxury to concentrate on honing their rebonuding alone....when they went in the gym in the summer they had to practice passing out of double teams etc...understanding different parts of teh game...he did not...

But there is no insticts involved except maybe in balance...what looks like instinct is skills that have been practiced so much and ingrained in someone where they become second nature.

[RainierBeachPoet]

You guys must be crazy if you think NBA players were just as tall in the 60s as they are now. The average man might not be much taller but the average athlete is. The average man might not weigh much more now than 60s but the average athlete does. Rainier, I thought you watched the 70s, are you telling me 7 Foot Centers were common as they are now? Don't blame you guys, after all you weren't watching athletes in the 60s

coach

i enjoyed 70s hoops as a kid!!

thats not what i was saying... everyone knows that there are more 7' guys in the league now

i was cracking up cause of the other post by bbb and just the wording struck me as funny--- no disrespect to you

[DreamRockets]

never thought my thread would get so many replies :D

[dejordan]

i'm still a little confused by coach's assertion that playing / growing up in this era would have made wilt taller. i understand that modern weightlifting, stretching, and conditioning would enhance his strength and athleticism, but are we to assume that the hormones being injected into our cows are going to toss an extra 3 inches on the stilt? you've lost me there, warren.

[RainierBeachPoet]

never thought my thread would get so many replies :D

this is one of the best threads in a while...

props to DR!!!

[Jailblazers7]

this is one of the best threads in a while...

props to DR!!!

Yeah its an actual bball conversation.

[Borat]

***Sam Mackinnon***

[97 bulls]

". But the thing is if he played in today's era he would be around 7"4 . If Rodman grew up in the 50s and played in the 60s, he wouldn't be as muscular or even as tall."


How the HELL can anyone who calls themselves a coach, let alone a knowledgable patron of the game say something as ridiculous as this. How would time and a different era effect the actual height of a player. Last time I checked, it was genetics, not time. I know the evolution of man is leaning toward hieght, but in the amount of time between the 60's and now, human evolution HAS NOT given us two or three extra inches. Try 500 + years

first of all, you guys have to remember that not just rodman is a physical speciman but his competition were also physical specimans. i believe that wilt was ahead of his time physically therefor, i dont think that he would be as dominant a rebounder if he played today. wilt played against inferior talent rodman played against superior talent.

[Coach A]

i'm still a little confused by coach's assertion that playing / growing up in this era would have made wilt taller. i understand that modern weightlifting, stretching, and conditioning would enhance his strength and athleticism, but are we to assume that the hormones being injected into our cows are going to toss an extra 3 inches on the stilt? you've lost me there, warren.

Believe it or not. The average athlete today is taller than the average athlete in the 60s. There are more 7 footers today then in the 60s. Average height for Center was around 6"9, today is 7"0. Average man might've not grown much, but average athlete has. Believe it or not. The conditioning, techonology, nutrition, and basketball drills an athlete goes through has made the average basketball player taller. Believe it or not. Thats not what I am saying, common sense would tell you the same, and so would facts.

But bottom line is, Wilt would still be very athletic in today's era. And he would still dominate. He just had more overall ability of rebounding, didn't focus on it 100% though. He went to block shots, while Rodman all he did was go up and position for the rebounds. Which he did well no doubt about that, especially for his size. But when you are blocking shots your not going to get nearly as much rebounds. Look at Mark Eaton for example. How many times did he win a rebounding title? Was he ever Top 3? He probably wasn't even Top 10 in the league in reobunds as much as he led the whole league in blocks. Barkley lke Rodman, has great rebounding ability, but because of Wilt's length and athleticness, I'd give Wilt the edge over him as well. And I didn't see Barkley go up for too many blocks either.

[wally_world]

Rodman Baylor or Kidd...

all undersized rebounders... especially Kidd at the point... i didn't know Rodman got 13.1rpg for his career! :pimp: :bowdown: :applause:

[dejordan]

Believe it or not. The average athlete today is taller than the average athlete in the 60s. There are more 7 footers today then in the 60s. Average height for Center was around 6"9, today is 7"0. Average man might've not grown much, but average athlete has. Believe it or not. The conditioning, techonology, nutrition, and basketball drills an athlete goes through has made the average basketball player taller. Believe it or not. Thats not what I am saying, common sense would tell you the same, and so would facts.

But bottom line is, Wilt would still be very athletic in today's era. And he would still dominate. He just had more overall ability of rebounding, didn't focus on it 100% though. He went to block shots, while Rodman all he did was go up and position for the rebounds. Which he did well no doubt about that, especially for his size. But when you are blocking shots your not going to get nearly as much rebounds. Look at Mark Eaton for example. How many times did he win a rebounding title? Was he ever Top 3? He probably wasn't even Top 10 in the league in reobunds as much as he led the whole league in blocks. Barkley lke Rodman, has great rebounding ability, but because of Wilt's length and athleticness, I'd give Wilt the edge over him as well. And I didn't see Barkley go up for too many blocks either.

i'm just not so sure that difference in height is nutrition / exercise related so much as it is related to the popularity and expansion of basketball in general and the emphasis on the importance of size which has drawn in many more potential players. i'm not so sure that you could expect individuals to get taller. the field is certainly taller, but in my mind that's because in the 70s you'd just go ahead and play a 6' 9" willis reed next to a dave debusher and let talent outweigh height. now a days similar sized players like brand and randolph play powerforward next to guys like pryzbilla and kaman rather than playing center next to more talented but smaller players. none of which is to try to diminish the rebounding skills of wilt which i'm sure would be superb in any era. and your point about wilt's great board work despite his commitment to shotblocking is insightful.

[RainierBeachPoet]

what rodman lacked in shotblocking numbers, he made up in taking charges (flopping notwithstanding). i am not sure there was a better postion defender and rebounder

[BlackMoses]

While it is nice that Rodman was such a great rebounder for his size, give me Wilt or Bill any day. Wilt simply out-rebounded him and had all the other things going as well. Bill is the greatest winner in team sport. Both have similar (and greater) numbers to Rodman, and did a lot more to affect the game.

[DieHardBullsFan]

Dennis "The Worm" Rodman

Nuff said......

There was no better rebounder than him.....

I mean he was a 6-8 210 lb power forward that got to the ball at ease......there will never be another rebounder like him.....

[DreamRockets]

While it is nice that Rodman was such a great rebounder for his size, give me Wilt or Bill any day. Wilt simply out-rebounded him and had all the other things going as well. Bill is the greatest winner in team sport. Both have similar (and greater) numbers to Rodman, and did a lot more to affect the game.

you, and many others, are focusing on things that don't have jack to do with the discussion, if russell and wilt brought more "effect" or "intangibles" to the game is irrelevant, if karl malone "could have been a better rebounder than rodman if he focused just on rebounding" as someone suggested is of no consequence because, for one you have no proof to back up those claims and second is irrelevant, we are talking about rebounding here, not dominating or affecting a game, solely rebounds, if "wilt could have been 7'6 in the modern era" has absolutely no relevance to the discussion, because for one you have no proof once again.

[RainierBeachPoet]

you, and many others, are focusing on things that don't have jack to do with the discussion, if russell and wilt brought more "effect" or "intangibles" to the game is irrelevant, if karl malone "could have been a better rebounder than rodman if he focused just on rebounding" as someone suggested is of no consequence because, for one you have no proof to back up those claims and second is irrelevant, we are talking about rebounding here, not dominating or affecting a game, solely rebounds, if "wilt could have been 7'6 in the modern era" has absolutely no relevance to the discussion, because for one you have no proof once again.

then would you agree with the career totals as to who is the greatest:

1--wilt
2--russell
3--moses malone
4--jabbar
5--artis gilmore

if it just about rebounds?

is rodman the 19th best then?

[lakers-city]

total numbers are misleading, they dont consider total games (rodman only played 911 games), they dont consider competition (rodman played great competition, wilt played scrawny stiffs)

wilt is listed at 7'1 and he looked more like 7'3, rodman was listed at a generous 6'8 and looked more like 6'6

13.1 rpg when teams average only 50 rpg for someone who is 6'6 make him the best ever in my book.

[knickscity]

Very different eras. Wilt has logged a considerable amount of rebounds more than Rodman. Rodman also played with guys who were good rebounders. Like Laimbeer, D-Rob just to name two. Since maybe Wilt was considerably bigger than most centers in his time, Rodman on the other hand had to improvise to be a great rebounder. There is no true way to compare.

Total rebounds....Wilt.
Mastering the craft of rebounding...arguable of course but I give to Rodman because he wasn't known as a rebounder when he began his career.

[PMshooter]

Here's what I always wondered about Rodman. If he had to do other things, like score or pass, would his RPG be as high? Chuck once said (in response to whether Rodman was the best rebounder ever) that if he didn't worry about anything but rebounding, he'd average 20 RPG.

I imagine the list gets ordered something like this:

Wilt
Russell
Chuck
Rodman

Wilt did everything on the floor, and that included 20+ rebounds - which is beyond ridiculous. You can attribute that to his physical dominance, which is fine, but it doesn't make him less of a rebounder.

Russell was another 20+ rebounder - but he shared less of other burdens that Wilt did, so he gets dropped down to two. If there's someone on the board who had the pleasure of watching these two and could share their comparison in terms of technique and lust for the board, I'd be interested in that.

Chuck gets third because I buy his argument. He was 6'4'' and a snatched up boards like they were ho-hos. Amazing rebounding from this guy his entire career.

Rodman's as tenacious rebounder as I've seen, but he did have the luxury of that being the only focus of his game. I could be wrong putting him below Chuck, as I can only speculate that in the same position Chuck would be the better rebounder, but it makes sense to me.

[knickscity]

Here's what I always wondered about Rodman. If he had to do other things, like score or pass, would his RPG be as high? Chuck once said (in response to whether Rodman was the best rebounder ever) that if he didn't worry about anything but rebounding, he'd average 20 RPG.



Sir Charles is not the authoirty. That's all he had to do for the Rockets, and they lost. I believe Phoenix got outrebounded by Chi in the finals also.

[DreamRockets]

too bad sir charles already tried to focus solely on rebounding and he didnt do any better.

[KWALI]

too bad sir charles already tried to focus solely on rebounding and he didnt do any better.

When he was broken down in Houston? how's that a comparison...and no in Philly he didn't concentrate only on rebounding he was simliar to Dennis in Detoit..he was not the main scorere right away but he didn't avoid shooting just so he could rebound...something Rodman did.

[DreamRockets]

rodman didnt shoot because he couldnt, just keep deluding yourself believeing barkley's fat ass would have averaged 50 rebounds per game if he had solely focused on that.

[Attila]

I say Wilt and Rodman.

[RainierBeachPoet]

13.1 rpg when teams average only 50 rpg for someone who is 6'6 make him the best ever in my book.

it is good to clarify criteria:

greatest rebounder= highest rpg average as compared to total rpg average plus height of the player (the shorter, the better)

is that accurate or am i misunderstanding still?

[PMshooter]

Sir Charles is not the authoirty. That's all he had to do for the Rockets, and they lost. I believe Phoenix got outrebounded by Chi in the finals also.

Well it was nice of him then to chip in 15 points and 4 assists.

Let's be real here. He was 6'4'' not in a specialized role his entire career and still averaged as many rebounds as the best 7'0'' rebounders do. That's got to be worth a little more cred than you're giving him. Think about the desire and will it takes to do that.

[Solid Snake]

No one will dare agree with me, no big deal, but here's my statement:

Take anyone who played before the 70's (an arbitrary year, pick another if you like) out of consideration.

[Da_Realist]

i missed wilt and russ, but as psilias said, if you adjust for their style / era of play their numbers are still right there with dennis, and they had more responsibilities. i watched every season that rodman, barkley, hakeem, shaq, and garnett played, and they are the best rebounders i've seen. charles and dennis had the most desire, and i always thought barkley was the best between the two because he was more able to just go and get a board without having to boxout and manuveur (his size and strength were a natural box out and he had that insane leaping ability before his back went). dennis though was more dedicated to going after every single board and never got tired, so he's got a good argument. hakeem and garnett were amazing because of their range getting rebounds. so often hakeem would leap out at shooter to disturb the shot and then recover to outmanuvuer his own man for the board. garnett is even more impressive because he plays defense on the perimeter so often. the amount of distance he covers coming to the ball is amazing. shaq just took up so much and was really explosive off the floor. he could get 11 boards without trying. moses was awesome on the offensive boards, but as rainierbeachpoet mentioned, he sort of padded his stats by using the self-pass off the board move. other great rebounders of my time: webber - best hands i ever saw, good timing, and terrific athleticism in his youth; oakley - took up space, fought for every inch, and wasn't afraid to hurt somebody to get that ball; and karl malone was just so strong and determined. amazing how well he went from boarding on d to leading a break on o (though that doesn't factor in). i guess my favorite rebounder to watch was barkley, but i don't see any real separation between him and dennis.

Barkley's rebounding strategy (1987) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt61lc2s8q0)



From --> LAL PHI 02-22-87 (Full Game) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXBk9HA6RYg)

[Kellogs4toniee]

it is good to clarify criteria:

greatest rebounder= highest rpg average as compared to total rpg average plus height of the player (the shorter, the better)

is that accurate or am i misunderstanding still?


Judging by that criteria I would say Rodman. The numbers he put up at his height and knowing the people he was defending and boxing out night in and night out is insane.

If you were to just straight out ask me who was the best rebounder of all time without any criteria clarified, then I would say either Wilt or Russell.

[Round Mound]

Barkley averaged 12.9 RPG in the Play-Offs

I thin Dennis at 6`6 3/4 and Charles at 6`4 3/4 where the Best Rebounders of The Modern Times

Before that it Was Unseld 6`6 3/4, Cowens at 6`8 and Moses Malone at 6`10

Before those Wilt and Russel in a different pace thoughl

[az00m]

The person who the highest rebound % while on the floor.

Hmm let me see who that is... DENNIS RODMAN.


Also, Charles is 6 3 you say?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6q-f-zD4xPY/TKWQRztZ-gI/AAAAAAAAZU4/fnzSyfQZ2uc/s1600/CharlesBarkleyMichaelJordan.gif

[GOBB]

Greatest I ever seen is Dennis Rodman.

[Round Mound]

Charles is 6`4 3/4 with shoes on around 6`5 1/2

After Barkley lost his leap he wen`t to Houston as a Role Player and the 1st Game back at Phoneix Arena at age 33 Charles had 33 rebounds :bowdown:

[Teanett]

for me:

1. worm
2. chuck
3. the rest

[az00m]

If someone adjusts Wilt's and Russell's numbers in Rodman's era, their rebounding numbers still rival or beat Rodman's. A main reason for this though would be due to the more minutes they played. So, judging from Rodman's rebounding rate, he should rank higher.
But his one-dimensional style of play is what prevents him from doing so. Especially after his Detroit days, it seemed that the guy would never leave the paint, even to guard players with a good outside shot like Horry. Now, Wilt and Russell didn't leave the paint either, but for sure they weren't focusing on just specific numbers. Even Wilt, who always wanted to collect stats, never cared solely about rebounding. Russell hardly did anyway.
Wilt also had to do tons of other things, including taking turnaround/fadeaway, "low-offensively-reboundable" shots (something which, to an extent, was his own fault) and blocking shots, which affected his rebounding--compare to Rodman who'd hardly ever shoot in a game and was a poor shot-blocker.
Finally: Some people hold it against Wilt in the GOAT discussions that his scoring fell during the playoffs. But so did Rodman's playoff rebounding. I'm sure not many know this, but Rodman loses to Wilt and Russell in playoff rebounding, even after the "playing time" and "era pace" adjustments.

Overall, I conclude that he can rank anywhere between No1 and 3 of all-time. Simple stats say he's not No1. Advanced stats say he is. Other additional factors say both are arguable.

No they dont... no one had a higher rebound % than rodman did.

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/081710_0019_5.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image002_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image009_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Wilt-and-Bill_28675_image010.png

[iggy>]

Moses Malone in his prime>>>>all

[Odinn]

Regular Season - Barkley
ORB% 12.5 - TRB% 18.2
Playoffs - Barkley
ORB% 12.3 - TRB% 18.9

Regular Season - Moses
ORB% 16.3 - TRB% 19.8
Playoffs - Moses
ORB% 15.1 - TRB% 19.4

Regular Season - Rodman
ORB% 17.2 - TRB% 23.4
Playoffs - Rodman
ORB% 15.0 - TRB% 20.5

[Bigsmoke]

Rik Smits

[Psileas]

No they dont... no one had a higher rebound % than rodman did.

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/081710_0019_5.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image002_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image009_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Wilt-and-Bill_28675_image010.png

Sorry, but I already wrote that Rodman is the leader in the rebounding %'s categories, so you needn't have added all these. But, since you did:

1) You left out Rodman's worst seasons, which decline more rapidly than Wilt's and Russell's ones do, not to mention that he plays some seasons as a role player, instead of a 35-40 mpg guy.
2) You seem to ignore that the league up to 1968 added the "team rebounds" stats to the rebounding totals, which deflated the %'s. I don't know how you calculated rebounding %'s for eras that did not include opponent numbers, but, for example, Wilt in 1967 grabbed an estimated 40.5% of his team's rebounds, and he played for a team that definitely outrebounded their opponents, which means that his overall % was more than 20.3%. Your graphs do not get to these numbers, as Wilt's supposed #1 and #3 best performances coincide with the seasons 1972 and 1973, when his rate was available.
3) Wilt and Russell were greater playoff rebounders. Rodman still has some great % postseasons, but only once averaged more than 35 mpg at any postseason, including only 24.1 mpg in his second most prolific in terms of %. He also played in only 3 games in the 1994 postseason, which is his 4th most prolific ever, in terms of %'s.
4) Not only were Wilt and Russell assigned to do more on the court, they excelled in blocked shots, which, by their nature, reduced their rebounding opportunities, especially for Wilt, who relatively rarely kept the ball in his hands after blocking a shot. Some of his rejections were so emphatic that they automatically resulted to a team rebound. Rodman simply didn't care about blocking shots, he only cared about rebounding.

[Bring-Your-Js]

Charles is 6`4 3/4 with shoes on around 6`5 1/2

After Barkley lost his leap he wen`t to Houston as a Role Player and the 1st Game back at Phoneix Arena at age 33 Charles had 33 rebounds :bowdown:

Barkley is the greatest PF I ever saw. dudes game was ****ing ridiculous, Period. How bout that 44 point, 24 board (10orb) WCF GAME 7 Performance against Seattle? In Game 5 he'd racked up 43/15/10.

[Round Mound]

Barkley is the greatest PF I ever saw. dudes game was ****ing ridiculous, Period. How bout that 44 point, 24 board (10orb) WCF GAME 7 Performance against Seattle? In Game 5 he'd racked up 43/15/10.

:applause:

[Bring-Your-Js]

:applause:

He didn't stop there. Going off memory but I believe he also dropped 42/13 in Game 2 of the Finals as well as 32/12/10 in Game 4, but the Suns lost both games. Kevin Johnson played particularly pathetic in that series. In the Game 6 Bulls clincher Barkley was gassed but still contributed 17 boards (21 pts).

[Laimbeer_Rodman]

Got to be Rodman if you consider size that he had.
Barkley was mean in Philly and in his first season with the Suns.

[gengiskhan]

for me:

1. worm
2. chuck
3. the rest

this.

case closed.

next

[jlauber]

No they dont... no one had a higher rebound % than rodman did.

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/081710_0019_5.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image002_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/WiltandBill_28675_image009_thumb.png

http://skepticalsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Wilt-and-Bill_28675_image010.png

Utter trash. Rodman played in the era when 7-2+ centers couldn't get 6-7 rpg, and 6-3 guards like Fat Lever were leading their team's in rebounding.

Of course, as Psileas pointed out, Rodman SHRANK DRAMATICALLY in the post-season. His HIGH post-season (and in only THREE games) was 16.0 rpg. His CAREER post-season average was 9.9 rpg.

As for Chamberlain...all anyone needs to know is that he BATTERED 7-2 Kareem on the glass, despite playing him in the twilight of his career, and on a surgically repaired knee. He CRUSHED 6-11 Thurmond in EVERY post-season, including his LAST season, when he outrebounded Nate in the '73 WCF's, 23.6 to 17.2 rpg. How about 7-0 260 lb. Tom Boerwinkle, who had a higher REBOUND RATE than Chamberlain in some seasons of the early 70's? Wilt had one playoff series against him in which he outrebounded him by a 172-9 margin. Of course, Bill Russell, who is probably the second greatest rebounder of all-time, was just BURIED by Wilt in their 142 career H2H games, by a 28.7 to 23.7 rpg margin. There were some games in which Chamberlain absolutely destroyed Russell, too. Russell had a great game three in the '67 ECF"s, when he grabbed 29 boards. Except that Wilt hauled in a playoff record of 41 (and out of a TOTAL of 134 rebounds BTW!) In that same series, Wilt had games in which he outrebounded Russell by 32-15 and a 36-21 margin (in the clinching game five win.) In Russell's last season, in 68-69, there was one game in which Wilt outrebounded him, 42-18. And Wilt had perhaps the most dominating rebounding game of all-time (and an NBA record BTW), in a game in which he outrebounded Russell by a 55-19 margin.

Of course, as great as Wilt was in the regular season, he was considerably greater in the post-season, with a 24.5 rpg. And, BTW, before someone mentions that Russell had a higher post-season average of 24.9, when Russell retired in '69, Wilt had averaged about 26 rpg in the post-season at the time. Not only that, but Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY H2H playoff series, some by HUGE margins. Wilt had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, and even had one of over 30 rpg. He also had THREE straight post-seasons against Russell, in which he averaged 31, 30, and 32 rpg. And his LOWEST post-season, in his career, was 20.2 rpg. And, in his 29 post-season series, Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in any of them. And he was pounding guys like Lucas, Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem, too. My god, in his LAST post-season , at age 36, and covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg and in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg.

Rodman my ass.

[Kobe24Clutch]

Big Ben :confusedshrug:

[jlauber]

Big Ben :confusedshrug:

Speaks volumes about the 90's and 00's, when guys like 6-7 Ben Wallace were winning TWO rebounding titles, and 6-8 Rodman was winning SEVEN. Not to mention the 6-9 Kevin Love easily leading the league just last year. 7-1 behemoths like Shaq and Robinson were struggling to get 12-13 rpg for cryingoutloud...and yet a player like Love, playing less minutes, could get 15 rpg. And in the late 80's, in which the league probably had the tallest players ever, it was 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever who was leading his team in rebounding. A questionable 6-6 Charles Barkley not only winning a rebounding title, but in one season, he horribly outrebounded his own teammate, Hakeem by over FOUR per game (yep...the vastly over-rated Hakeem being humiliated by a 6-6 teammate.)

[IGOTGAME]

Speaks volumes about the 90's and 00's, when guys like 6-7 Ben Wallace were winning TWO rebounding titles, and 6-8 Rodman was winning SEVEN. Not to mention the 6-9 Kevin Love easily leading the league just last year. 7-1 behemoths like Shaq and Robinson were struggling to get 12-13 rpg for cryingoutloud...and yet a player like Love, playing less minutes, could get 15 rpg. And in the late 80's, in which the league probably had the tallest players ever, it was 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever who was leading his team in rebounding. A questionable 6-6 Charles Barkley not only winning a rebounding title, but in one season, he horribly outrebounded his own teammate, Hakeem by over FOUR per game (yep...the vastly over-rated Hakeem being humiliated by a 6-6 teammate.)

how is that humiliating?

[get these NETS]

where does Michael Cage rank?

led the league in rebounding a few times..he specialized in getting boards

[Ikill]

How is Barkley only 6'3 when he's the same height as Jordan height doesn't even matter its how long your arms.

[Gotterdammerung]

Speaks volumes about the 90's and 00's, when guys like 6-7 Ben Wallace were winning TWO rebounding titles, and 6-8 Rodman was winning SEVEN. Not to mention the 6-9 Kevin Love easily leading the league just last year. 7-1 behemoths like Shaq and Robinson were struggling to get 12-13 rpg for cryingoutloud...and yet a player like Love, playing less minutes, could get 15 rpg. And in the late 80's, in which the league probably had the tallest players ever, it was 6-3 175 lb. Fat Lever who was leading his team in rebounding. A questionable 6-6 Charles Barkley not only winning a rebounding title, but in one season, he horribly outrebounded his own teammate, Hakeem by over FOUR per game (yep...the vastly over-rated Hakeem being humiliated by a 6-6 teammate.)
Actually from what I remember, Barkley was tasked to rebound while Hakeem was the #1 option on offense. Since he took a lot of shots that took him away from the basket (fadeaways, fallaways, jump hooks, dream shakes), he wasn't in prime estate to rebound after the shot. Barkley on the other hand was a genius on the offensive glass and devoted his energy to the boards and drawing illegal defenses with his clever post-ups.

So it wasn't humiliating for Hakeem when their game-plan required Hakeem to shoot and Barkley to rebound.

[swi7ch]

Rodman

[get these NETS]

has anybody put the Fat Lever stat in context?


Denver was a run and gun team...i don't think they had conventional big men during that era

they consistently led the league in team scoring back then.. a classic 80s center playing on that team in that altitude would be too out of breath to rebound

[magnax1]

Rodman an obvious first, with Wilt and Russell in second.

[10x91= 5 Rings]

Utter trash. Rodman played in the era when 7-2+ centers couldn't get 6-7 rpg, and 6-3 guards like Fat Lever were leading their team's in rebounding.

Of course, as Psileas pointed out, Rodman SHRANK DRAMATICALLY in the post-season. His HIGH post-season (and in only THREE games) was 16.0 rpg. His CAREER post-season average was 9.9 rpg.

As for Chamberlain...all anyone needs to know is that he BATTERED 7-2 Kareem on the glass, despite playing him in the twilight of his career, and on a surgically repaired knee. He CRUSHED 6-11 Thurmond in EVERY post-season, including his LAST season, when he outrebounded Nate in the '73 WCF's, 23.6 to 17.2 rpg. How about 7-0 260 lb. Tom Boerwinkle, who had a higher REBOUND RATE than Chamberlain in some seasons of the early 70's? Wilt had one playoff series against him in which he outrebounded him by a 172-9 margin. Of course, Bill Russell, who is probably the second greatest rebounder of all-time, was just BURIED by Wilt in their 142 career H2H games, by a 28.7 to 23.7 rpg margin. There were some games in which Chamberlain absolutely destroyed Russell, too. Russell had a great game three in the '67 ECF"s, when he grabbed 29 boards. Except that Wilt hauled in a playoff record of 41 (and out of a TOTAL of 134 rebounds BTW!) In that same series, Wilt had games in which he outrebounded Russell by 32-15 and a 36-21 margin (in the clinching game five win.) In Russell's last season, in 68-69, there was one game in which Wilt outrebounded him, 42-18. And Wilt had perhaps the most dominating rebounding game of all-time (and an NBA record BTW), in a game in which he outrebounded Russell by a 55-19 margin.

Of course, as great as Wilt was in the regular season, he was considerably greater in the post-season, with a 24.5 rpg. And, BTW, before someone mentions that Russell had a higher post-season average of 24.9, when Russell retired in '69, Wilt had averaged about 26 rpg in the post-season at the time. Not only that, but Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY H2H playoff series, some by HUGE margins. Wilt had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7+ rpg, and even had one of over 30 rpg. He also had THREE straight post-seasons against Russell, in which he averaged 31, 30, and 32 rpg. And his LOWEST post-season, in his career, was 20.2 rpg. And, in his 29 post-season series, Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in any of them. And he was pounding guys like Lucas, Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem, too. My god, in his LAST post-season , at age 36, and covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg and in a league that averaged 51.6 rpg.

Rodman my ass.

LOL...your hate for anyone or anything challenging your Wilt is quite funny....if it wouldn`t be so sad.You give Wilt fans a bad name.

[B]Dennis Rodman

[Bring-Your-Js]

[QUOTE=10x91= 5 Rings]LOL...your hate for anyone or anything challenging your Wilt is quite funny....if it wouldn`t be so sad.You give Wilt fans a bad name.

[B]Dennis Rodman

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=10x91= 5 Rings]LOL...your hate for anyone or anything challenging your Wilt is quite funny....if it wouldn`t be so sad.You give Wilt fans a bad name.

[B]Dennis Rodman

[Big#50]

Players that play no defense (Barkley) or no offense (Rodman) should have an advantage on he boards. While players like Tim, Shaq, DROB, Hakeem all played an all around game. To me those guys are the best rebounders ever.

[jlauber]

Players that play no defense (Barkley) or no offense (Rodman) should have an advantage on he boards. While players like Tim, Shaq, DROB, Hakeem all played an all around game. To me those guys are the best rebounders ever.

Collectively, Tim, DRob, Shaq, and Hakeem had THREE rebounding titles in a total of 65 seasons.

BTW, Chamberlain had ELEVEN rebounding titles in 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in '70, it would have been 12)...all while being the second greatest defensive player of all-time, the all-time greatest shot-blocker, and averaging 30 ppg over the course of his entire career.

[Big#50]

Collectively, Tim, DRob, Shaq, and Hakeem had THREE rebounding titles in a total of 65 seasons.

BTW, Chamberlain had ELEVEN rebounding titles in 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in '70, it would have been 12)...all while being the second greatest defensive player of all-time, the all-time greatest shot-blocker, and averaging 30 ppg over the course of his entire career.
Too bad he didn't play in this era. I don't doubt he would have been an amazing rebounder and shot blocker. But his offense was weak. Doubt he would average 20 ppg in this era. Howard has better post moves and better offense all around. Wilt's numbers would be duplicated by many if they played in that era.

[jlauber]

Too bad he didn't play in this era. I don't doubt he would have been an amazing rebounder and shot blocker. But his offense was weak. Doubt he would average 20 ppg in this era. Howard has better post moves and better offense all around. Wilt's numbers would be duplicated by many if they played in that era.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You obviously did NOT see him play, NOR did you EVER see ANY of his YouTube footage (much of which, unfortunately, has been removed.)

Wilt came into the league with 15+ foot range. He had a BETTER bank shot than Duncan, and he had a VARIETY of other offensive moves, including a deadly turn-around 8-10 jump-shot.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70


As for Howard having better post moves...you're kidding right?

BTW, Wilt was probably 3-4 inches (or more) taller, had a much longer wingspan (7'-8"), was much bigger (he was at over 300 lbs in his last few seasons), much stronger (just google Wilt's strength or bench), probably faster (he was a SPRINTER on KU's track team), probably could jump higher (he was a HIGH JUMP champ in college...and was dunking on 12 ft rims at KU. And the NBA outlawed the dunking of FTs because of him), and once again, FAR more SKILLED. And, he would FEAST against this inept collection of "centers" in TODAY's NBA, instead of the 10+ HOFers he DOMINATED in his career.

[TheCorporation]

Dennis Rodman.

[10x91= 5 Rings]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Gotta love those ADVANCED STATS, which are in reality... MINI STATS.



bla,bla....of course if it doesn`t suit your agenda,they all of a sudden aren`t that important.You`re one big hypocrite,Mr. "I only like stats,that I can use for my agenda".

You`re making a fool out of yourself.You tear down or prop up other greats,only to always make sure it is to the benefit of your Wilt.It so obvious to anyone here with a brain. You might have started out great when you came on this site,but your insecurity concerning especially Bill Russell has led to hatred and that my friend......is a very weak character trait.See I don`t have a problem if someone thinks that Wilt,Bill or Moses are the greatest rebounders ever. I respect all of them and don`t have to tear them down,but just for you let me repeat this stat,no matter if you like it or not:

Rodmans Total Rebound % (available rebounds for the minutes played)

Total Rebound Pct
1987-88 NBA 18.6 (4)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (3)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (2)
1990-91 NBA 21.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 26.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 26.0 (1)
1993-94 NBA 25.7 (1)
1994-95 NBA 29.7 (1)
1995-96 NBA 26.6 (1)
1996-97 NBA 25.6 (1)
1997-98 NBA 24.1 (1)
Career NBA 23.4 (1)


And since you like repetition,cause you post the same s*it everyday:

Voila,once again

Dennis Rodman

[Harison]

Russell or Wilt, with Rodman just behind them. Worm is only close because Wilt/Rus cared about other things as well, while Rodman almost solely focused on rebounding and defense, sometimes even sacrificing defense for the rebound. If Wilt/Rus would have such specific focus, it wouldnt be so close, since they were taller, more athletic, with very good timing, and with better hops than Rodman.

[10x91= 5 Rings]

Russell or Wilt, with Rodman just behind them. Worm is only close because Wilt/Rus cared about other things as well, while Rodman almost solely focused on rebounding and defense, sometimes even sacrificing defense for the rebound. If Wilt/Rus would have such specific focus, it wouldnt be so close, since they were taller, more athletic, with very good timing, and with better hops than Rodman.

As I said.I don`t have a problem with that,though don`t underestimate Rodmans contribution for the offensive game.Getting the important offensive rebounds,gives your team extra amount of scoring opportunities,which wins games.Rodman tied the NBA record for offensive rebounds in the Finals twice.He was also one of the greatest outlet passers in the game.Here`s an interesting read from Sports Illustrated.

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i366/sportlistikz/0304_large.jpg

March 04, 1996
Tricks Of The Trade
With elbows and erudition, Dennis Rodman of Chicago rules over NBA rebounders
Phil Taylor


Class is in session in the visitors' locker room of the Miami Arena, and the instructor is a tall, tattooed gentleman with a nose ring, hair dyed a shade of brownish yellow not found in nature and a T-shirt that reads, I DON'T MIND STRAIGHT PEOPLE, AS LONG AS THEY ACT GAY IN PUBLIC. Chicago Bulls forward Dennis Rodman may not look like a teacher, but he is nothing less than a professor of rebounding, and before a game last Friday against the Miami Heat he is holding an impromptu seminar.

Rodman is the only Bull studying the tape of Chicago's game against the Atlanta Hawks the previous night. "Anytime I see Scot-tie or Michael shoot from the top of the key, I know the ball will come off the rim to the right," he says, referring to teammates Scot-tie Pippen and Michael Jordan. "Watch this." He fast-forwards the tape until Pippen appears on the big-screen TV, shooting a three-pointer from the top of the key. While the shot is in the air, other players wrestle for position under the basket as Rodman slides into an open space to the right of the hoop. The shot caroms hard toward the right corner, just as he anticipated, and he is the only one in position to chase the ball down. He fast-forwards again, first to another Pippen miss from the top of the key and then to a Jordan miss from the same spot. Both times the ball bounces off to the right, and both times Rodman—who has spent hours observing the arc of their shots—is in position for an uncontested rebound. He looks away from the television, raises his eyebrows and says, "See?"

It was not by accident that through Sunday Rodman led the NBA in rebounding, with an average of 15.4 per game, and that if he maintains his lead, he will become only the second player (the first was Moses Malone) to win five consecutive rebounding titles. As he showed when he had a game-high 17 rebounds in the Bulls' 111-91 victory over the Orlando Magic on Sunday, he rules the backboards because he is relentless, superbly conditioned, a trifle dirty when he needs to be and, perhaps most important, surprisingly analytical. "He compares himself to a computer sometimes," says teammate Jack Haley. "The hardware is his body, which he keeps in peak physical shape, and the software is his knowledge, what he knows about different shooters' tendencies and how shots from certain spots on the floor tend to come off the rim. And dirty? Well, let's just say I have the bite marks and scratches from going up against him in practice."

At the very least Rodman, who has averaged 18.7, 18.3, 17.3 and 16.8 rebounds the last four seasons, deserves a place next to Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell as one of the greatest rebounders of all time. An informal SI poll of NBA players, coaches, executives and broadcasters placed Chamberlain at No. 1, Rodman No. 2 and Russell No. 3—with esteemed board men Malone, Paul Silas, Wes Unseld, Charles Barkley, Nate Thurmond, Bob Pettit and Jerry Lucas rounding out the alltime Top 10. An argument over whether Rodman is a better rebounder than Chamberlain or Russell could go on for ages. Chamberlain's career rebounding average was 22.9 and Russell's was 22.5, compared with Rodman's 12.5 entering this season. But Chamberlain and Russell, both centers, played in an era when more shots were taken per game and shooting percentages were lower, and thus there were more rebounds to be had.

However, Rodman's dominance of the backboards is even more remarkable than that of either Hall of Fame pivotman because at 6'8" and 215 pounds he overcomes a size disadvantage faced in their era by neither Chamberlain, who was 7'1" and 275, nor Russell, 6'10" and 225 (and also blessed, as Rodman is, with disproportionately long arms). Thus it is fair to say that, inch-for-inch and pound-for-pound, Rodman is the best rebounder in NBA history. "Wilt was just bigger and stronger than everyone," says TNT analyst Chuck Daly, who coached Rodman when they both were with the Detroit Pistons. "Russell was built more along the lines of Dennis, but he didn't have to go up against power forwards and centers as big as the ones Dennis has to face night after night. When you factor size into the equation, I don't know how you could say there's ever been a better rebounder."

Rodman simultaneously has reduced rebounding to a science while elevating it to an art. He talks dispassionately about angles and trajectories in the locker room, but on the floor he pursues the basketball with passion. After winning a battle for the ball, he will cradle it like a baby, or look at it quizzically as if seeing it for the first time, or whip it quickly to a teammate as though it were some disgusting object. "I rebound with a little flair, a little something extra," he says. "It's not for the crowd, it's just for me. Rebounding is how I express myself on the floor."

He turns back to the TV, switching from the tape of the Bulls-Hawks game to one showing the Heat against the Magic. He is most interested in tonight's opponent, Miami, but he can't help noticing Orlando center Shaquille O'Neal. "Most shots rebound long, to the opposite side, but Shaq's ball is fiat, so if he shoots the ball from the side, it's usually going to come back to that same side and quickly," Rodman says. "It'll come off the rim hard, so it will be a long rebound. But take somebody like [Chicago guard] Steve Kerr. He has a high arc on his shots, so I know his rebounds are either going to go straight up or off to the opposite side. Either way, they're going to be pretty close to the rim."

Rodman is warming to the subject now, never taking his eyes off the screen as he talks. "I know shooters, but that's not enough," he says. "You have to watch the flight of the ball. Most guys see the shot go up and they turn and look at the rim, waiting for the ball to come off. I watch the ball in the air and make an adjustment if I need to." When Rodman was traded from the San Antonio Spurs to the Bulls in October, he immediately made a habit of rebounding for Pippen and Jordan during practices as they warmed up so he could get a feel for the caroms that came from their shots. "Most of the time Mike's shots tend to come off to the right of the rim, no matter where he shoots it from, but I don't just take that for granted," Rodman says. "I watch his shot in the air, and I can tell if it's off-line to the left or short, and then I go where I think I need to be."

A typical Rodman game would not be instructional-video material. He takes liberties with the fundamentals, sometimes deciding not to box his man out and instead moving to the spot where he anticipates the rebound will come. His relatively slender build works to his advantage here, because he seems to be able to slip through cracks between players. Like a good outfielder, Rodman appears to get a jump on the ball, moving while the ball is still in the air. Because of that ability, Charlotte Hornets vice president of basketball operations Bob Bass, who held the same job with San Antonio when Rodman joined the Spurs, compared him to Willie Mays.

And if Rodman guesses wrong, he has the ability to adjust quickly. "Dennis can jump at an angle, which is not as easy as it might sound," says Bulls television analyst Johnny (Red) Kerr, who averaged double figures in rebounds for eight straight seasons in the 1950s and '60s with the Syracuse Nationals and the Philadelphia 76ers. "Most guys are straight-up jumpers, but Dennis can adjust his body in the air to get to a ball. The only other player I've seen who could do that was Russell."

[10x91= 5 Rings]

part 2


The Rodman paradox is that he can look as though he is barely in control of his emotions on the court, on the edge of some outburst, when he is in fact coolly processing information. He is taking into account who the shooter is, the area on the court from which the shooter is firing, the trajectory of the ball, the positioning of his opponents and the percentages, which indicate that most shots will rebound long and to the opposite side of the basket from which they were launched. "People think I just go get the damn ball, because they don't take the time to really look at what I do," he says. "Rebounding isn't brain surgery, but there's more to it than being able to jump higher than the next guy. A lot of the work is done before you ever even jump."

Some of that work is best done away from the referees' gaze. Like every successful rebounder, Rodman has certain tricks he uses to help him gain an advantage. "They're not tricks, they're techniques," he says. He particularly likes to pin his opponent's arm between his own arm and his body, making it impossible for the opponent to jump. He gets called for this fairly often but not nearly as often as he gets away with it. "He's pretty active with his hands," says Cleveland Cavaliers center-forward Michael Cage, who led the league in rebounding in 1987-88. "He'll give you a little nudge in the small of the back just as you're getting ready to jump." When Rodman has inside position, he sometimes crouches down and leans back into his opponent until he is virtually sitting on the other man's thigh, which tends to keep the opponent anchored to the floor. "There might be a couple of other little things I do," he says. "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you." Somehow, you believe him.

If Rodman has not revolutionized rebounding, he has at least glamorized it, making the slam-dance under the basket seem like fun when it is in fact grueling, often brutal work. His rebounding skill is what makes it impossible to dismiss him as just an attention-seeking eccentric. "People buy into the image of Dennis as this kind of impulsive flake," says Kerr. "But there's so much more to him than that. He's exceptionally smart and hardworking. It's just that those qualities are harder to spot than the hair colors and the tattoos." That's not to say that Rodman doesn't care about being noticed. "I had dinner with him about a month ago," says Daly. "He said to me, 'You know, I was the best defensive player and the top rebounder in Detroit, and nobody knew who I was. That's why I decided to do some things a little differently.' "

If he ever fulfills his goal of getting 50 rebounds in a game (Chamberlain's 55 are the NBA single-game record), Rodman may do something really different. He has said that his fantasy is to grab number 50, then strip off his uniform and run off the floor naked. Haley no doubt speaks for many when he says that "is something I truly hope I never have to see."

Rodman has certainly won the respect of other top rebounders, both past and present. "His greatest asset is his energy level," says Cage. "He's absolutely tireless. He is to rebounding what Jordan is to offense. If he's your man, you almost have to forget about scoring or helping on defense." Silas, now a Phoenix Suns assistant coach, sees a bit of himself in Rodman. "He's more physically talented than I was," Silas says, "but the way he watches the flight of the ball and anticipates where it will go is similar to what I used to do. The big thing, though, is desire. He just wants the ball more than the other guy."

That desire was the by-product of Rodman's pursuit of a place for himself when he arrived in the NBA as an obscure second-round draft choice out of Southeastern Oklahoma State. "When he first came into the league, he didn't think much of his offensive skills, and rebounding and diving on the floor were the ways for him to get minutes," says Daly. "When he saw how good he was at it, he really started to focus on it."

Indeed, when he is pursuing a ball, Rodman has no concern for his own welfare or anyone else's. During his seven years with Detroit at least one courtside spectator sued him when he accidentally trampled her while trying to keep a ball from going out-of-bounds. (The Pistons settled out of court.) And he once knocked a Detroit sportswriter unconscious when he ran over him while chasing a ball. As these examples show, there is no loose ball that he considers out of his reach, and every time a shot goes up, he believes the rebound will be his. It is revealing that when he describes where certain shooters' rebounds are likely to go, he does not mention the possibility that the shot will go in. "I expect every shot to miss," he says. "To me, every time the ball leaves a shooter's hand, I believe there's a rebound coming."

"He almost never concedes a rebound," says Cage. "He knows if he can get even a finger on it and keep it alive, he's such a quick jumper that he'll have a chance to get it on the second or third jump." That second or third jump often comes while his opponent is still gathering himself to go up a second time. One of Rodman's greatest assets is that he is a pogo-stick jumper. Notes Toronto Raptors coach Brendan Malone, a Detroit assistant when Rodman was a Piston, "A lot of big guys have to dip their knees and drop their arms before they jump, and by that time Dennis has been in the air two or three times."

Moreover, Rodman is as quick a jumper in the fourth quarter as he is in the first, thanks largely to his remarkable physical condition. Rodman's 34-year-old body shows no signs of the wear and tear of 10 NBA seasons. He bounds up and down the court with a bounce in his stride that suggests he has more energy than he knows what to do with. "He's a Duracell battery," says Haley, Rodman's most vocal cheerleader. "The man doesn't even sweat." Rodman is a maniacal weightlifter, but surprisingly none of his weight work is designed to strengthen those spring-loaded legs, which Rodman believes are already powerful enough; he does ride stationary bicycles and climb on StairMasters.

It is mostly due to Rodman's presence that at week's end Chicago was outrebounding its rivals by an average of 6.9 per game; last season, the Bulls grabbed only one more rebound per game than their foes. But numbers don't do justice to the kind of psychological effect a rebounder like Rodman has on a game. "The only two guys I've ever seen who could dominate a game without scoring are Bill Russell and Dennis Rodman," says Brendan Malone. Rodman's offensive rebounds can be especially demoralizing to an opposing team that has finally forced the Bulls' potent offense into a missed shot. (Through Sunday, Rodman led the league in offensive boards, averaging 5.67.) "His tip-ins are sometimes amazing," says Chicago coach Phil Jackson. "On one play he was almost directly under the backboard, and he somehow tipped the ball so that it banked off the backboard and went into the basket. It was no accident. He's got tipping angles that amaze me."

[97 bulls]

Russell or Wilt, with Rodman just behind them. Worm is only close because Wilt/Rus cared about other things as well, while Rodman almost solely focused on rebounding and defense, sometimes even sacrificing defense for the rebound. If Wilt/Rus would have such specific focus, it wouldnt be so close, since they were taller, more athletic, with very good timing, and with better hops than Rodman.
I can see wilt, but russel was not a big time scorer. For all intents and purposes, russell and rodman did the same thing. But russell blocked shots and rodman drew charges.

[Big#50]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

You obviously did NOT see him play, NOR did you EVER see ANY of his YouTube footage (much of which, unfortunately, has been removed.)

Wilt came into the league with 15+ foot range. He had a BETTER bank shot than Duncan, and he had a VARIETY of other offensive moves, including a deadly turn-around 8-10 jump-shot.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html



As for Howard having better post moves...you're kidding right?

BTW, Wilt was probably 3-4 inches (or more) taller, had a much longer wingspan (7'-8"), was much bigger (he was at over 300 lbs in his last few seasons), much stronger (just google Wilt's strength or bench), probably faster (he was a SPRINTER on KU's track team), probably could jump higher (he was a HIGH JUMP champ in college...and was dunking on 12 ft rims at KU. And the NBA outlawed the dunking of FTs because of him), and once again, FAR more SKILLED. And, he would FEAST against this inept collection of "centers" in TODAY's NBA, instead of the 10+ HOFers he DOMINATED in his career.
He had a weak offensive game. He wouldn't hit a shot in this era. The dude was more robotic than shit. Why is it his ppg was weak in the playoffs? Wilt looked stiff to me.

[jlauber]

He had a weak offensive game. He wouldn't hit a shot in this era. The dude was more robotic than shit. Why is it his ppg was weak in the playoffs? Wilt looked stiff to me.

This is one of the most ridiculous comments that I have ever read here. Wilt's scoring "weak" in the playoffs??????

Let's see...

FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2, 34.7, 35.0, and 37.0 ppg. And two more of 28.0 and 29.3 ppg. That is SIX exceptional post-season's. Incidently, they coincide with his "scoring" seasons in his career, which were his first seven years. Only six you say, out of seven? Yep, ...because his '63 roster was probably the worst in NBA history, and his team didn't make the playoffs...in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a then record .528 shooting. BTW, how bad was that roster? Chamberlain's new coach in the following season, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with that cast of clowns, and against rookies, and undrafted players. He was shocked to watch his team LOSE. And, BTW again, Wilt STILL took that same basic god-awful roster to a 48-32 record, and the Finals that season.

So, Wilt missed one post-season, in his career, and it was his second highest scoring season of his career. That probably cost him 3-4+ ppg off of his career post-season average, right there.

In any case, in Wilt's first seven seasons, covering six post-seasons, he averaged about 33 ppg...COMBINED. As well as 26-27 rpg. And while his shooting percentage was "only" about .510 in the playoffs during those seven seasons, it came in leagues that averaged between .410 to .441 shooting...so Wilt was shooting WAY above the league average.

And, here are some interesting facts regarding those six post-seasons. He had THREE post-season series of 38.6, 37.0, and 37.0 ppg. One of those was in a best-of-five series, in which his coach, by his own admission, made the mistake of having Wilt facilitate instead of shoot. In the clinching game five win, Wilt put up a 56-35 game. BTW, in those three series, Wilt had the good fortrune of "only" facing an All-Star-caliber center, instead of a HOF center (more on that later.) For example in his 63-64 WCF's against Zelmo Beaty, who was a career five-time all-star, Wilt plastered him with a 38.6 ppg - 23.0 rpg series.

Ok, we also know that Wilt faced Russell in EIGHT post-season series, and some were in the first round. Chamberlain played 160 post-season games, and 49 of them were against Russell, or nearly ONE-THIRD. In his first six post-seasons, he faced Russell in FIVE of them. He averaged 31 ppg, 34 ppg, 29 ppg, 30 ppg, and 28 ppg in those five series...or about 30 ppg...combined.

And the Russell battles were significant. For those idiots that claim that Wilt' scoring dropped in the post-season, Chamberlain ran into Russell and the Celtic Dynasty EIGHT times, and in 49 games. I have seen posters state that, as an example of Wilt's "drop-off" they use Wilt's 61-62 post-season as an example. Chamberlain "only" averaged 35 ppg in his 12 post-season games, as compared to his 50.4 ppg during the regular season. Ok, he also faced Russell in seven of those games, and once again, averaged 33.6 ppg against him in that series. However, he "only" averaged 38 ppg on .470 shooting against him during the regular season, so, in reality, his scoring did not drop much at all. And think about this...with Russell and his Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers, swarming Wilt, and with Chamberlain not having ONE single player shoot better than .397 in the post-season (and most shot MUCH worse)...Wilt STILL somehow took that badly outmatched roster to a game seven, two-point loss.

AND, had Wilt's sorry cast of teammates been able to score just THREE more points in that game seven...Wilt would then gone onto the Finals against the Lakers. We all know that Russell played brilliantly against LA in the Finals that season, including a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds. However, what would Chamberlain have done to the Lakers in the Finals? During the regular season, Wilt averaged 51.5 ppg against LA in eight games, including THREE games of 60+...with a staggering game of 78 points and 43 rebounds in one of them. This is an important point for those that diminish Wilt's post-season scoring. Had he not run into the HOF-laden Celtics, year-after-year, including Russell, who many regard as the greatest defensive center (or PLAYER) of all-time, what kind of numbers would he have posted?

Still, Wilt had some HUGE games against Russell in those five post-seasons. In the '60 ECF's, and in a "must-win" game five, Chamberlain unleashed a 50 point, 35 rebound game on Russell, in a WIN. He also had a 42-29 game in that series, as well...an OT loss. In the '62 ECF's, in game two, Wilt outscored Russell 42-9, (and outrebounded him, 37-20), in a seven point WIN. He also had a 41-34 game in that series...in yet another WIN. In the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain CARRIED a 40-40 team, to a game seven, one-point loss, against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, and their SIX HOFers. In that clinching game seven loss, Wilt hung a 30 point game, on 12-15 shooting from the field, with 32 rebounds on Russell. And he scored six of Philly's last eight points, including a dunk over Russell with five secs left. And after Russell hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to win the game...but, alas, "Havicek stole the ball." And Wilt also hung a 46-34 game on Russell in a clinching game five loss in the '66 ECF's.

Continued....

[jlauber]

Continuing...

And, once again, for those that claim that Wilt's scoring dropped dramatically in the post-season, Wilt had a TON of 30+ games ...including 20 against Russell, alone, in 49 H2H meetings. He also had FOUR games of 50+, with a high of 56...which is second only to MJ in 50+ point playoff games. He also had a relatively unknown game six in the '70 Finals, in which, playing just four months after major knee surgery, he posted a 45 point game, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.

Of course, Wilt's scoring pretty much mirrored his regular season numbers, year-after-year. So, if anyone is to blame for his decline in scoring, it was usually his COACHES fault. In any case, and as I stated before, Wilt played in 160 post-season games. And he faced a HOF opposing center in about TWO-THIRDS of them. He squared off against Russell, 49 times. Reed 18 times. Thurmond 17 times. Kareem 11 times. Bellamy six games. He also faced Lucas, who played center in two series against him, 10 times (and another eight games as well.) He also battled Wayne Embry in a number of games, as well as multiple all-star players like Red Kerr and Zelmo Beatty. In fact, he seldom had the luxury of facing a non-HOF or all-star center. For example, in the '67 playoffs, he just buried 6-10 Connie Dierking with a 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and .612 series (which included his first two games of 41 points on 19-30 shooting, and 37 points on 16-24 shooting.)

And, a year after his devastating knee injury, he battled a prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the '71 WCF's. Kareem outscored him, per game, 25-22, but Wilt outshot him, .489 to .481, and outrebounded him, per game, 19-17. This was a Wilt that was well past his prime, too. As for "clutch" play...in the '67 ECF's, in the clinching game five win over Russell's Celtics, he scored 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and seven blocks. In the clinching game six come-from-behind win over Kareem's 63-19 Bucks in the '72 WCF's, Chamberlain TOOK OVER in the 4th quarter, and finished with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds (and just dominated Kareem defensively.) Then, in the clinching game five win of the Finals in that same season, and playing with BOTH badly injured wrists heavily-bandaged, he put up a 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 (or 10) blocks.

So, there you have it...THAT was the Wilt whose scoring was "weak" in his post-seasons.

[QUOTE]Dennis Rodman

[momo]

Of guys I actually watched regularly I have to pick mo & the worm.