2008-2010 Lakers vs. 2011-2013 Heat

[Doctor K]

Whose run was better?
Which 3 year dynasty would win?

[SoCalLakersFan1]

I think the Lakers could beat the Heat, their size gives them a huge edge and the Heat would have problems forcing turnovers against the Lakers.

[PickernRoller]

Younger Kobe on both Wade and Bron....+ young Ariza and younger Metta.

No contest on the backcourt..........

Frontcourt doesn't even need mentioning.

LA in 6 games max. This heat teams aren't as balanced as the 08/10 Celtics.

I do however believe that in terms of dominance against their relative competition, the Heat are better/will be better as a dynasty. But that's all relative to competition.

[EnoughSaid]

Who's going to stop LeBron on the Lakers? Who on the Lakers is fast enough to run with the Heat?

LA wouldn't be able to play Gasol/Bynum because Miami would just run them out of the gym. Odom/Gasol wouldn't do much to LeBron/Bosh.

If Miami runs: Chalmers/Allen/Wade/Bron/Bosh, they win this.

[Magic 32]

If Boris Diaw could slow down Lebron, I'm sure a prime Ariza could do something. Take a look at Lebron's numbers against the 08-09 Lakers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=2009&year_max=2009&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=CLE&opp_id=LAL&is_playoffs=N&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_fg=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=15&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

[PickernRoller]

Who's going to stop LeBron on the Lakers? Who on the Lakers is fast enough to run with the Heat?

LA wouldn't be able to play Gasol/Bynum because Miami would just run them out of the gym. Odom/Gasol wouldn't do much to LeBron/Bosh.

If Miami runs: Chalmers/Allen/Wade/Bron/Bosh, they win this.

Sorry but both the Ancient Spurs and Ancient Celtics were able to keep up very well. It's all about execution and those Laker teams executed. As for who's gonna stop Lebron - no one he will get his. Who's gonna stop Kobe? Lebron, or Wade :roll: :lol ...try going under a screen and sagging off Kobe - burned. Get too close, - beat off the dribble or a screen + Perk nor Dwight is guarding the rim. There is just no way.

The Heat just won't make it past 6 games any way you spin it. Chalmers and Cole ain't gonna do crap against Fisher and Farmar.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Heat win in 6. Too much Lebron/spacing. I think Wade gets up for a matchup like this as well.

[kNicKz]

Who's going to stop LeBron on the Lakers?

Diaw bodied Lebron

Artest easily checks him

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0507/nba_a_artest_bryant2_288v.jpg

[Magic 32]

Diaw bodied Lebron

Artest easily checks him

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0507/nba_a_artest_bryant2_288v.jpg

Ariza did a better job.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0707/nba_g_lebron_ariza1_203.jpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=arizatr01&p2=jamesle01

[kNicKz]

Nobody wants to talk about Ray Allen? He got that Celtics team a ring against the Lakers and saved the Heat this year

[Jameerthefear]

I'd have to say the Lakers. They had so many weapons...

[tmacattack33]

If Boris Diaw could slow down Lebron, I'm sure a prime Ariza could do something. Take a look at Lebron's numbers against the 08-09 Lakers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=2009&year_max=2009&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=CLE&opp_id=LAL&is_playoffs=N&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_fg=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=15&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

Yeah and if Lebron schooled Paul George and wasn't bothered by Prime Sefalosha in the 2012 Finals, I'm sure he'd school prime Ariza.

[kNicKz]

The 2009-2010 Celtics would beat the Heat, let alone Lakers

[Magic 32]

Yeah and if Lebron schooled Paul George and wasn't bothered by Prime Sefalosha in the 2012 Finals, I'm sure he'd school prime Ariza.

Paul George

lol

And Sefalosha held Lebron to 46% shooting (5% below his average).

and Ariza shut him down in 08-09.

[kNicKz]

http://igohardnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/136715261_crop_650x440.jpg

[Trollsmasher]

Kobe stops himself. Heat just need to take it to 7 games and Kobe will make them win.

[Jacks3]

Lakers played incredible competition.

Heat played historically weak competition.

No contest.

[Jacks3]

Lakers just need to make every game close and LeBrick will choke it away.

[Magic 32]

http://igohardnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/136715261_crop_650x440.jpg


:oldlol:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2808005/leconfused.gif

[The-Legend-24]

Nobody on that Heat team is stopping 08 Kobe and Non-pussified Gasol.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Nobody on that Heat team is stopping 08 Kobe and Non-pussified Gasol.
Just make sure it goes to game 7 and you know how well Lebron will play and how bad Kobe will. :lol

[tazb]

They beat a young, inexperienced team in '09 and then in '10 Perkins got injured in Game 6 and that's basically how the Lakers won it. That team wasn't anything special. Heat in 5 easily.

[The Choken One]

Lakers big men destroy them.

Lakers in 6.

[tomtucker]

heat was/is stacked.........heat wins in 6

[Doranku]

They beat a young, inexperienced team in '12 and then in '13 Parker got injured in Game 3 and that's basically how the Heat won it. That team wasn't anything special. Lakers in 5 easily.

FTFY :roll:

[Magic 32]

They beat a young, inexperienced team in '09 and then in '10 Perkins got injured in Game 6 and that's basically how the Lakers won it. That team wasn't anything special. Heat in 5 easily.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305018

[Lebron23]

Team LeBron is 13-6 versus Team Kobe in their regular season matchup. and the heat beat a superior teams in the finals 12 thunder and 13 spurs >> 09 Magic and 10 Celtics.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01

[Magic 32]

Team LeBron is 13-6 versus Team Kobe in their regular season matchup. and the heat beat a superior teams in the finals 12 thunder and 13 spurs >> 09 Magic and 10 Celtics.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=bryanko01

and Kobe annihilated the Spurs with Bruce Bowen instead of Boris Diaw.

Styles make fights.

And again.......only Lebron fans thinks that regular season games means anything.

Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 RS:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/hskq3m.jpg

Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 PO:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2e17pxc.jpg

Lebron never won a meaningful game against Kobe, period. And Kobe was quite unlucky in their RS meetings.


04 = Came of his shoulder injury. Played like 10 min.
05 = Twist his ankle 5 min. in to the game. Comes back from that injury against.....the Cavs.
06 = 1-1 with horrible officiating in Cleveland.
09 = Destroys the ligaments in his fingers in game 1, has the flu in their second meeting.
12 = Mask(owned Lebron anyway)

[FLDFSU]

heat was/is stacked.........heat wins in 6

This is exactly what I don't understand. ISH keeps going on and on about how historically stacked the Heat are yet the Heat would lose to every team in the NBA this year-including the Bobcats, and would stand no chance against other championship teams.

Its really confusing logic to follow.

[PJR]

This is a serious post? LeBron James doesn't lose to Kobe Bryant led teams.

[plowking]

Lakers played incredible competition.

Heat played historically weak competition.

No contest.

Interesting.

A 2010 Celtics team that many picked to lose to a Wade led Heat team full of scrubs in the first round is incredible competition in the finals? :oldlol:
Then you have the 2009 Magic, who outside of the 2007 Cavs might just be one of the worst teams to ever make the finals.

The big 3 have bullied the Lakers ever since forming, and it would happen even with the Lakers at full strength. Bosh has feasted on the Lakers front court every time they played. :oldlol:

[chosen_one6]

Lol at people saying Trevor Ariza can stop LeBron. Then they bring up LeBron stats from 08-09 (when he was on the Cavs)

Not only is LeBron mentally a different player now than he was back then, but his teammates are much better and the team is constructed differently than the team he played with in 08-09.

Anyway, a thread like this is pretty pointless. All it'll ever be is speculation. What I do know is that LeBron's teams have had their way against Kobe's teams more often than not.

[longtime lurker]

This is exactly what I don't understand. ISH keeps going on and on about how historically stacked the Heat are yet the Heat would lose to every team in the NBA this year-including the Bobcats, and would stand no chance against other championship teams.

Its really confusing logic to follow.

Well it works both ways. Apparently Lebron has the worst supporting cast for a championship season ever and the Heat have zero interior presence. While Kobe is a horrible player carried by his dominating front line.

So it's either dominating front line+greatest supporting cast>than horrible supporting cast and zero interior presence or Heat fans are full of shit.

[aj1987]

According to Kobe nut munchers, Heat is a historically stacked team. One of the most stacked teams ever. Yet, the 2009 Lakers, who apparently had a (according to the same idiots) had a ***** Gasol, Bynum who sucked and didn't play at all, a scrub Artest, and Kobe, can beat the Heat? I thought that the Lakers big men during the 2-peat were shit?

Now the same people are saying that the Lakers can beat the Heat. Doesn't that actually mean that Kobe had more help than Lebron? That the Lakers were more stacked that the Heat are now?

[Doranku]

Interesting.

A 2010 Celtics team that many picked to lose to a Wade led Heat team full of scrubs in the first round is incredible competition in the finals? :oldlol:
Then you have the 2009 Magic, who outside of the 2007 Cavs might just be one of the worst teams to ever make the finals.

The big 3 have bullied the Lakers ever since forming, and it would happen even with the Lakers at full strength. Bosh has feasted on the Lakers front court every time they played. :oldlol:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Magic 32]

Not only is LeBron mentally a different player now than he was back then, but his teammates are much better and the team is constructed differently than the team he played with in 08-09.

Lol Lebron fans loves to talk about how godlike Lebron was in 08-09. Can't have it both ways.



Anyway, a thread like this is pretty pointless. All it'll ever be is speculation. What I do know is that LeBron's teams have had their way against Kobe's teams more often than not.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/105461/pathetic-loser-o.gif

Lebron fans. Taking a win any way they can. :oldlol:


04 = Came of his shoulder injury. Played 10 min.
05 = Twist his ankle 5 min. in to the game. Comes back from that injury against.....the Cavs.
06 = 1-1 with horrible officiating in Cleveland.
09 = Destroys the ligaments in his fingers in game 1, has the flu in their second meeting.
12 = Mask

[Jacks3]

Heat just played the weakest first three rounds in NBA history.

Not one 50 win team. Not one.

That's mind-boggling.

Meanwhile, the 08-10 Lakers are seeing 50+ win teams from the first round.

Pathetic East.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Whats Kobe's record against LeBron led teams? LeBron owns Kobe's soul.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Nobody on that Heat team is stopping 08 Kobe and Non-pussified Gasol.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200806170BOS.html

[Bigsmoke]

Lakers played incredible competition.

Heat played historically weak competition.

No contest.

How was the Heat's journey to the championship in 2012 weak?

The Lakers played a 50-32 team in the Finals and went to 7 games against a Rockets without Yao.

[Magic 32]

Whats Kobe's record against LeBron led teams? LeBron owns Kobe's soul.
Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 RS:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/hskq3m.jpg

Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 PO:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2e17pxc.jpg

Regular season meetings means NOTHING.

[DaSeba5]

It's hysterical that people says Miami is the most stacked team in history, but every time they are matched with another title team they always lose to them. :lol

[Bigsmoke]

Heat just played the weakest first three rounds in NBA history.

Not one 50 win team. Not one.

That's mind-boggling.

Meanwhile, the 08-10 Lakers are seeing 50+ win teams from the first round.

Pathetic East.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

funny how the Lakers beat the shit outta these West teams in 2008 but lose by 40 against the Celtics who struggled against their teams to get to the Finals.

just like the THunder from 2012 were beating the shit outta of defending champs Mavs, Lakers, and the team with the best record in the NBA in the Spurs but go against a 2nd seeded east team in the Heat and lose... in 5 games :biggums:

[Magic 32]

It's hysterical that people says Miami is the most stacked team in history, but every time they are matched with another title team they always lose to them. :lol

They are stacked, but they would lose to any championship team of substance and character.

Maybe a injury free or non-lockout playoffs would help.

[Jacks3]

Lakers 1st round opponent in 2008/2009/2010 (Thunder/Jazz) were at least as good as the Heat's ECF opponent. That's how pathetic the East was.

And this gives the Heat a major disadvantage because they can literally coast through rounds and still win, which means greater energy for the late stages. The Lakers didn't have that luxury. They were facing 50+ win teams with multiple All-Stars from the beginning. It's not even close. :oldlol:

[red1]

heat in 6

[Bandito]

The Lakers run was better as they had to fight for it but the Heat are just stacked. So this answers op's question.

[secund2nun]

Lebron always tears up Kobe and LA when they meet. LA also was not a ijntense defensive team. They were pretty soft defensively. Intense physical defenses beat Miami. Miami would cut through the LA defense like knife through butter.

[K Xerxes]

They are stacked, but they would lose to any championship team of substance and character.

Maybe a injury free or non-lockout playoffs would help.

Wow, so defending FMVP Tim Duncan didn't get injured for the 00 playoffs.

So the best player on the defending champions, Garnett, didn't get injured in 09.

So the Rockets who take the Lakers to a game 7 in 09 did have Tmac for the whole series and Yao Ming for the last four games.

So Kendrick Perkins (who has actually useful back then) didn't get injured for game 7 in the NBA finals.

Who knew, guess injuries only happen when LeBron wins it, right?

[Magic 32]

Wow, so defending FMVP Tim Duncan didn't get injured for the 00 playoffs.


Lakers never faced the Spurs in 2000.



So the best player on the defending champions, Garnett, didn't get injured in 09.


Lakers never faced the Celtics in 2009.



So the Rockets who take the Lakers to a game 7 in 09 did have Tmac for the whole series and Yao Ming for the last four games.


Yao's injury actually helped the Rockets, speeding up the game.



So Kendrick Perkins (who has actually useful back then) didn't get injured for game 7 in the NBA finals.


Had him for 5 game though.

Lebron was able to play one of the worst playoff team in NBA history (Bucks), and then face 2 teams without their best offensive weapons.

Mind you, not the opponents of these amputated teams (like Magic facing the Lakers after beating the Celtics ), because the lack of competition was so severe that these wounded team were able to win their first and second series anyway.

Lebron basically never played a healthy team that was any good.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Hilarious that there are people that still can't get over the fact LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was. Some of you are in serious denial

[Magic 32]

Hilarious that there are people that still can't get over the fact LeBron is a better player than Kobe ever was. Some of you are in serious denial

http://cdn.niketalk.com/a/a4/500x1000px-LL-a4706b3c_21780_10151461652492697_1967155284_n.jpeg

[SilkkTheShocker]

http://cdn.niketalk.com/a/a4/500x1000px-LL-a4706b3c_21780_10151461652492697_1967155284_n.jpeg

Post all the pretty pictures you want. You know deep down that im right. LeBron will go down as a better player than Kobe ever was. And deep down it absolutely destroys you inside. You probably wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweats having nightmares that a player you hate with your soul is a better player than your two favorite players ever were. You must have thrown your remote like a little kid throws his damn toys after LeBron sealed game 7 of the NBA Finals. While your idol will forever have the stigma of being a sidekick/rapist. I honestly give you props for continuing to fight a war you have no chance of winning. A lot of Kobe/Lakers fans have already waved the white flag in these arguments. But its coming to the point your bringing a water pistol to a gunfight. Each time LeBron wins a title, MVP, etc a part of you dies.

[K Xerxes]

Lakers never faced the Spurs in 2000.

Lakers never faced the Celtics in 2009.

Oh right, so it doesn't count. If only the Spurs were bad enough to be 8 seed and played the Lakers in the first round, then it would have counted!

Obviously the Celtics wouldn't have played the Lakers, since they're in the East and had no chance of the finals without their best player. :facepalm


Yao's injury actually helped the Rockets, speeding up the game.

Yea, losing your 7'6 center is good for you.

No comment on Tmac?


Had him for 5 game though.

GAME 7. The game that the Lakers dominated the boards - Gasol had 18 of them - and the Celtics were forced to start Rasheed at center and give some playing time to Big Baby Davis at C. :facepalm

[red1]

:oldlol: poor magic32

[PickernRoller]

A bunch of Lebron nut huggers getting their panties stuffed in here. Their logic and lack of IQ is mind blogging.

"But but it's hypocritical to say that the Heat will lose to the Lakers if Laker fans say they're the most stacked team in the league :roll: :roll: :lol "

There is a distinction between being the most stacked team in the league relative to your present competition than being better than other historically good teams by default because of this distinction.

Relative to present competition the Heat are more stacked than the 00'-03' Lakers. No one and I mean no one will pick this Heat team to win over the 00'-03' in any series.

Same applies here. Now y'all can continue saying irrelevant crap to justify your de facto pick. Fact is, 08-10 Lakers are a better team than the 10-13 Heat - in a match up. Dynasty wise I say the Heat will accomplish more as in my previous post.

Discussing series will get people no where....cherry picking points here and there get you no where.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Hey guys, just ignore the fact Kobe has done nothing but lose against LeBron. The Lakers got this.


























:oldlol:

[Magic 32]

Ignoring this K Xerxes?


Lebron was able to play one of the worst playoff team in NBA history (Bucks), and then face 2 teams without their best offensive weapons.

Mind you, not the opponents of these amputated teams (like Magic facing the Lakers after beating the Celtics ), because the lack of competition was so severe that these wounded teams were able to win their first and second series anyway.

Lebron basically never played a healthy team that was any good.

[Magic 32]

Post all the pretty pictures you want. You know deep down that im right. LeBron will go down as a better player than Kobe ever was. And deep down it absolutely destroys you inside. You probably wake up in the middle of the night in cold sweats having nightmares that a player you hate with your soul is a better player than your two favorite players ever were. You must have thrown your remote like a little kid throws his damn toys after LeBron sealed game 7 of the NBA Finals. While your idol will forever have the stigma of being a sidekick/rapist. I honestly give you props for continuing to fight a war you have no chance of winning. A lot of Kobe/Lakers fans have already waved the white flag in these arguments. But its coming to the point your bringing a water pistol to a gunfight. Each time LeBron wins a title, MVP, etc a part of you dies.

Darn, that picture did the job :D

[K Xerxes]

Ignoring this K Xerxes?

I am not the one with an agenda here. I happily admit that LeBron greatly benefited from injuries* only if you concede that this is the same with Kobe. If you give Kobe a pass, then give both a pass. I am contesting the hypocrisy here, not the players.

*IMO the Bulls would have beaten the Heat last year and this year with a healthy D-Rose, and the Pacers would have beaten the Heat if Granger returned for the playoffs off the bench.

But injuries are a part of sport, and it will all be forgotten in a few years. Doesn't change the fact that LeBron has been incredibly dominant these past two years.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Heat in 5.

[WayOfWade]

Heat in 5.
Come on man, you've got to be realistic. Heat in 4.

[rzp]

heat in 5

[Magic 32]

I am not the one with an agenda here. I happily admit that LeBron greatly benefited from injuries* only if you concede that this is the same with Kobe. If you give Kobe a pass, then give both a pass. I am contesting the hypocrisy here, not the players.


This year was pretty unique for the Heat, and I don't see the hypocrisy in pointing out their astonishing lack of quality opponents. Kobe faced plenty of healthy 50+ teams during his championship runs.

[longtime lurker]

So what is it Heat fans? Kobe won with the most dominant front court of all time and the Heat somehow have the worst front court of all time yet the Heat win in 4 because the magic of Lebron.........

[tmacattack33]

and Kobe annihilated the Spurs with Bruce Bowen instead of Boris Diaw.

Styles make fights.

And again.......only Lebron fans thinks that regular season games means anything.

Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 RS:

http://oi44.tinypic.com/hskq3m.jpg

Lebron against Celtics in 09-10 PO:

http://oi40.tinypic.com/2e17pxc.jpg

Lebron never won a meaningful game against Kobe, period. And Kobe was quite unlucky in their RS meetings.

This is such a stupid post Lol

[Magic 32]

This is such a stupid post Lol

Meet Lebron's playoff nightmare.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2167.png&w=350&h=254

[aj1987]

It used to be Kobe>>>>Lebron because 5>>>0. After 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's, you guys have changed it to "Kobe played better teams"?:roll: Pathetic.

[WayOfWade]

It used to be Kobe>>>>Lebron because 5>>>0. After 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's, you guys have changed it to "Kobe played better teams"?:roll: Pathetic.
Even with that better team argument, how is it LeBron's fault he played (in their eyes) inferior teams? I say you do the best with what you're given, be it your team or the one you're playing against, and be judged accordingly to what you accomplish.

[Magic 32]

It used to be Kobe>>>>Lebron because 5>>>0. After 4 MVP's, 2 Rings, and 2 FMVP's, you guys have changed it to "Kobe played better teams"?:roll: Pathetic.

No, we just don't agree with...

3 media given MVP's > 3 rings averaging 25 5 5?

and especially not when your greatest achivements are created on the back of the most blatant "stacking the deck" career move in NBA history, and you play in a crippled and historically weak conference.

Kobe playing better teams is only a small part of the argument.

[aj1987]

No, we just don't agree with...

3 media given MVP's > 3 rings averaging 25 5 5?

and especially not when your greatest achivements are created on the back of the most blatant "stacking the deck" career move in NBA history, and you play in a crippled and historically weak conference.

Kobe playing better teams is only a small part of the argument.
Lebron James in the Playoffs last year: 30/10/6/2 on 50% (the whole playoffs)
Lebron James in the Playoffs this year: 26/8/7/2 on 49%
Lebron James combined titles run: 28/9/6/2 on 50%

Also, according to people, Gasol >>> Bosh and Kobe >>>Wade. I'm only assuming, but doesn't that make the Lakers a better team than Miami? That means, Kobe was on teams that were more stacked than the Heat.

Kobe played an amazingly bad team in the Finals in '09 and an injured team in '10.

[tmacattack33]

Meet Lebron's playoff nightmare.

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2167.png&w=350&h=254

Great, you're argument against Lebron has been relegated to a five year old type of argument where you continually list one player Lebron had trouble with for 12.8 minutes (Diaw's average MPG in the Finals) per game, without acknowledging the players he schooled.

And there were about 4 players he schooled for every 1 player he struggled against in this years playoffs. And in his brilliant 2012 playoff run, it was about a 8 to 1 ratio.

:applause:

[fjjkk102]

LeBron>Kobe
Wade>Pau
Bosh<Lamar?
Ray<Bynum?

Spo<Phil

The team w/best player in the series always win.

Unless Bron choke again.

[Magic 32]

Great, you're argument against Lebron has been relegated to a five year old type of argument where you continually list one player Lebron had trouble with for 12.8 minutes (Diaw's average MPG in the Finals) per game, without acknowledging the players he schooled.

And there were about 4 players he schooled for every 1 player he struggled against in this years playoffs. And in his brilliant 2012 playoff run, it was about a 8 to 1 ratio.

:applause:

Well, it's a short way of saying that Lebron once again stuggled in the finals, shooting 39% through the first 23 quarters of the series (part of the time guarded by a player who shouldn't be able to stop a can of tuna).

It's almost like Lebron fans mock Kobe, as a way of distraction themselves from their broken MJ dreams.

[Magic 32]

Also, according to people, Gasol >>> Bosh and Kobe >>>Wade. I'm only assuming, but doesn't that make the Lakers a better team than Miami?

Yes, the first and second option on the Lakers are better than the second and third option on the Heat.

Well done! That proves it.

[Rocketswin2013]

Miami just doesn't have the size. And LA has the luxury of cherry picking who they want to guard LeBron.

LA in 6.

[DMAVS41]

08 Lakers beat the 11 Heat...assuming Lebron chokes. If he plays normal...the 11 Heat destroy the 08 Lakers.

12 Heat beat the 09 Lakers...

10 Lakers destroy the 13 Heat...

[SamuraiSWISH]

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers
2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers

[DMAVS41]

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers
2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers

Do you think the 11 Heat could beat the 08 Lakers with Lebron playing like he did against the Mavs?

I'm kind of torn on that one. I agree with your other two...

[Fire Colangelo]

08 Lakers beat the 11 Heat...assuming Lebron chokes. If he plays normal...the 11 Heat destroy the 08 Lakers.

12 Heat beat the 09 Lakers...

10 Lakers destroy the 13 Heat...

Why do 10 lakers destroy 13 heat?

Kobe was coming out of his prime in 10. If you wanna use the injury reason for wade, then lakers also have no Bynum.

10 cavs beat 10 lakers 2-0 that should be saying something. Beat the 13 heat, maybe, but no way they destroy 13 heat.

[Fawker]

Phil would have thought of something.

[DMAVS41]

Why do 10 lakers destroy 13 heat?

Kobe was coming out of his prime in 10. If you wanna use the injury reason for wade, then lakers also have no Bynum.

10 cavs beat 10 lakers 2-0 that should be saying something. Beat the 13 heat, maybe, but no way they destroy 13 heat.

Because the 13 Heat in the finals just aren't a very good team...and couldn't match up with the size of the Lakers either.

Don't understand the Bynum and Wade comments...they both played in their respective finals.

Think of it this way...not only were the 10 Lakers better than the 13 Spurs, but they were a worse matchup for the Heat as well. The Heat got straight up "lucky" to beat the Spurs.

Simple logic tells you that the Heat playing a better team that is a bad matchup for them is going to yield a worse result...and if they should have lost to the Spurs in 6...then I'm guessing the Lakers win in 5...

[SamuraiSWISH]

Do you think the 11 Heat could beat the 08 Lakers with Lebron playing like he did against the Mavs?
No. But they could still compete, just like they did against the Mavericks with LeBron playing Where's Waldo on the perimeter. I'm just assuming he doesn't have one of his performance anxiety things, and actually balls. The 2011 Heat would beat the 2008 Lakers.

Each one of those Heat teams is very different though. The 2011 Heat had no spacing, with Big Three clicking on all cylinders. 2012 Heat had spacing, slightly regressed Wade. 2013 Heat had perfect spacing, shell of D-Wade, better supporting cast then the previous 2 seasons.

2010 Lakers definitely beat the 2013 Heat. They were pretty stacked, and the size up front is too much. What do you think?

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is a hard one, the Heat has a better squad and the Lakers has a better coach. When it comes down to crunch time I'd take the Lakers, but the Heat has an edge in not-so-close games.

[DMAVS41]

No. But they could still compete, just like they did against the Mavericks with LeBron playing Where's Waldo on the perimeter. I'm just assuming he doesn't have one of his performance anxiety things, and actually balls. The 2011 Heat would beat the 2008 Lakers.

Each one of those Heat teams is very different though. The 2011 Heat had no spacing, with Big Three clicking on all cylinders. 2012 Heat had spacing, slightly regressed Wade. 2013 Heat had perfect spacing, shell of D-Wade, better supporting cast then the previous 2 seasons.

2010 Lakers definitely beat the 2013 Heat. They were pretty stacked, and the size up front is too much. What do you think?

I'm convinced, like you, that the 12 Heat beat the 09 Lakers and the 10 Lakers easily beat the 13 Heat.

11 vs 08 is tough...if Lebron plays normal...the 11 Heat destroy the 08 Lakers. The 11 Heat are really under-rated here...and I'm not saying that to prop Dirk/Mavs. I don't need them to get credit...it's just that the 11 Heat with Lebron playing normal would be the best playoff team the Heat have had.

They blew through the East going 12-3...Went 8-2 against the Bulls/Celtics...both very good to great teams. Beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade not playing a great series at all...

People ignore that the 11 Heat were elite on both ends (3rd offense and 5th defense)...and after the first 17 game slow start...they pretty much just dominated the shit out of the league until they were up 15 against the Mavs in game 2 of the finals...

If you could have polled the world at that moment about the Mavs chances to win the series...they would have been astronomical...then this weird thing happened with Lebron getting punked on both ends...and Dirk/Terry just continued their epic onslaught in crunch time that the league has really never seen (Dirk's 4th qtr and clutch play in the 11 playoffs was the best since early 90's Jordan)

So if Lebron doesn't choke...the 11 Heat would beat the 08 Lakers in 4 or 5. If he chokes...I have no idea...the more I think about it...the more I still think they have a chance. The 11 Mavs were better than the 08 Lakers in my opinion...and it's not like the Mavs beat the Heat easily...and I think the Mavs posed a tougher matchup as well.

[plowking]

Lakers played incredible competition.

Heat played historically weak competition.

No contest.

Actually its the exact opposite.

Lakers had some really easy runs to the finals.

[Smoke117]

The lakers were given the championship in 2009 when KG went down. The Celtics were EASILY the best team in the league (better than the 2008 team) before their defensive anchor and best player in general went down.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The lakers were given the championship in 2009 when KG went down. The Celtics were EASILY the best team in the league (better than the 2008 team) before their defensive anchor and best player in general went down.
Agreed. It would've been a better series than the previous season. Even with a slightly regressed Kobe, but healthy Ariza gave them an added dimension they didn't have the year before. I believe it would've went a solid 6, no monumental blow outs like the final game in 2008. Boston would've won though with a healthy KG, and emerging star Rondo.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Lakers had some really easy runs to the finals.
2011 Mavericks < 2008 Celtics
2012 Thunder > 2009 Magic
2013 Spurs < 2010 Celtics

2011 Bulls < 2008 Spurs
2012 Celtics < 2009 Nuggets
2013 Pacers < 2010 Suns

2011 Celtics > 2008 Jazz
2012 Pacers < 2009 Rockets
2013 Bulls < 2010 Jazz

[Fire Colangelo]

Because the 13 Heat in the finals just aren't a very good team...and couldn't match up with the size of the Lakers either.

Don't understand the Bynum and Wade comments...they both played in their respective finals.

Think of it this way...not only were the 10 Lakers better than the 13 Spurs, but they were a worse matchup for the Heat as well. The Heat got straight up "lucky" to beat the Spurs.

Simple logic tells you that the Heat playing a better team that is a bad matchup for them is going to yield a worse result...and if they should have lost to the Spurs in 6...then I'm guessing the Lakers win in 5...

You can't really use that kind of logic, 08 hawks took 08 celtics to 7 games yet 08 celtics beat 08 lakers in 6.

Bynum was injured in the playoffs and averaged like 8 points, he isn't gonna be a factor against the heat. Lebron is still the best player on the floor and let's not act like MWP is gonna shut down lebron.

There's no way 10 lakers beat 13 heat in 5.

[chazzy]

Actually its the exact opposite.

Lakers had some really easy runs to the finals.
2013 competition was weak

[plowking]

How can anyone call the Heat's road to the finals weak during this big 3 era?

In their first year they beat a 56 win Celtic team who they struggled with in the regular season, and then beat a 62 win Bulls team who they also struggled with in the regular season. They eventually lost to a 57 win Mavericks team with their star player on fire.

In their first title team in 2012, during the lockout season, they essentially beat the 50+ win Celtics again, 50+ win Pacers who have a great mismatch over them, and then went on to beat a team that knocked off a Spurs team many were calling one of the best teams of all time prior to getting knocked out by the Thunder. They did this all while Chris Bosh was severely hampered in his play, hence a large piece of the offensive puzzle missing. They had to change the way they played in the middle of the playoffs.
Not to mention they also beat a Knicks team that some said could upset them due to matchups and style of play.

2013 is the only one that was somewhat easier. Even then, played an Indiana team that was even better than last year, and played a Spurs team that was even better than the one of last year that was being deemed as possibly one of the best teams ever. They went and added wing defense with Leonard, which was probably their only weakness prior to that.

[plowking]

2011 Mavericks < 2008 Celtics
2012 Thunder > 2009 Magic
2013 Spurs < 2010 Celtics

2011 Bulls < 2008 Spurs
2012 Celtics < 2009 Nuggets
2013 Pacers < 2010 Suns

2011 Celtics > 2008 Jazz
2012 Pacers < 2009 Rockets
2013 Bulls < 2010 Jazz

LOL at the 2010 Celtics being better than the 2013 Spurs.

I won't even bother with the others.

[SamuraiSWISH]

LOL at the 2010 Celtics being better than the 2013 Spurs.

I won't even bother with the others.
Work with me. Tell me which ones you disagree with. On second thought, I'd call 2010 Celtics = 2013 Spurs. Maybe the same for 2011 Bulls = 2008 Spurs. But which ones do you feel should go the opposite way?

[plowking]

2013 competition was weak

First two rounds were. No denying that.

Pacers are a great playoff team that would give anyone trouble, and the Spurs are a historically great finals opponent.
Call them old and whatever you want, but the Heat were technically older, so... :oldlol:

[tpols]

LOL at the 2010 Celtics being better than the 2013 Spurs.

I won't even bother with the others.

It's not that crazy.. Boston had the tougher frontcourt.. last pri me years of ray/pierce and an exploding rondo who was better than parker.

Nothing to throw yours hands up over

[aj1987]

Because the 13 Heat in the finals just aren't a very good team...and couldn't match up with the size of the Lakers either.

Don't understand the Bynum and Wade comments...they both played in their respective finals.

Think of it this way...not only were the 10 Lakers better than the 13 Spurs, but they were a worse matchup for the Heat as well. The Heat got straight up "lucky" to beat the Spurs.

Simple logic tells you that the Heat playing a better team that is a bad matchup for them is going to yield a worse result...and if they should have lost to the Spurs in 6...then I'm guessing the Lakers win in 5...
The Spurs hung in there because of their incredible 3pt shooting. I don't see anyone on the Lakers, who could do what Green, and to a lesser extent, Neal did. The Spurs basically had 5 players who were destroying the Heat (Parker, Duncan, Green, Neal, and Leonard). With the Lakers, Miami wouldn't have the same problem.

'11 Heat vs '08 Lakers? The Heat would absolutely annihilate them. Prime Wade, a near 20/10 Bosh, and a 20/7/7 LeBron? Yeah, no way in hell are the Lakers stopping them.

'12 Heat >>>> essentially any version of the Kobe led Lakers. LeBron was just on another level in the Playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The lakers were given the championship in 2009 when KG went down. The Celtics were EASILY the best team in the league (better than the 2008 team) before their defensive anchor and best player in general went down.

The Celtics were given the championship in 2008 when Bynum and Ariza were injured. derp.

Anyway
2008 Lakers < 2011 Heat
2009 Lakers < 2012 Heat
2010 Lakers > 2013 Heat

Each series, Lebron takes a thorough dookie on the Lakers.

[SamuraiSWISH]

First two rounds were. No denying that.

Pacers are a great playoff team that would give anyone trouble, and the Spurs are a historically great finals opponent.
Call them old and whatever you want, but the Heat were technically older, so... :oldlol:
Technically? LOL wow. Semantics

The most talented core of main three for each gives the age advantage firmly in Miami's favor. Spurs were over the hill, worn down.

Indiana gave Miami fits and was a great test cause Wade was a shell in that series, and Indiana's size up front. They're still not even a 50+ win team. That doesn't make them great.

You've got to win 50+ or 60+ to be good / great. 2013 first two rounds are by far the worst competition, in conjunction with crippling injuries I've ever seen.

[plowking]

Work with me. Tell me which ones you disagree with. On second thought, I'd call 2010 Celtics = 2013 Spurs. Maybe the same for 2011 Bulls = 2008 Spurs. But which ones do you feel should go the opposite way?

2011 Bulls are equal to 2008 Spurs.

2012 Indiana are as good as the Rockets of 2009. The biggest one is 2010 Suns being better than 2013 Pacers. Not a chance in hell. One if built for the playoffs, the other is an overachieving team that clearly isn't built for playoff, grind it out ball.

[tpols]

I don't get how 2010 Lakers are considered so much better than 08.. Kobe was way better in 2008.. pau was similar just that kg punked him. He wouldn't have gotten bullied by bosh or Joel anthony. Wade was great but bran was terrible.

[Suguru101]

2011 Mavericks < 2008 Celtics
2012 Thunder > 2009 Magic
2013 Spurs = 2010 Celtics

2011 Bulls < 2008 Spurs
2012 Celtics > 2009 Nuggets
2013 Pacers = 2010 Suns

2011 Celtics > 2008 Jazz
2012 Pacers > 2009 Rockets (Yao got injured on like the first or second game)
2013 Bulls < 2010 Jazz

What has to be considered is that Pau and Odom were healthy during those runs. Bosh was out in 2012 and Wade wasn't really 100%. In 2013 we already know how limited Wade was. So in the end it kind of evens out.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I don't get how 2010 Lakers are considered so much better than 08.. Kobe was way better in 2008.. pau was similar just that kg punked him. He wouldn't have gotten bullied by bosh or Joel anthony. Wade was great but bran was terrible.

Had Bynum and Ariza played in the finals, that series would've been FAR more interesting. LA got killed on the boards and couldn't do shit on the perimeter far as Ray-Ray and Pierce go (both went loco).

[SamuraiSWISH]

I don't get how 2010 Lakers are considered so much better than 08.. Kobe was way better in 2008.. pau was similar just that kg punked him. He wouldn't have gotten bullied by bosh or Joel anthony. Wade was great but bran was terrible.
I think the pieces around Kobe, and a more confident Gasol made them better.

[plowking]

It's not that crazy.. Boston had the tougher frontcourt.. last pri me years of ray/pierce and an exploding rondo who was better than parker.

Nothing to throw yours hands up over

Spurs had better wing defenders, better 3 point shooting, better movement and a far better offense.

I wouldn't say Rondo was better than Parker either. Whichever way you cut it, the Spurs were a better functioning team with equal or better talent at the absolute worst.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Spurs had better wing defenders, better 3 point shooting, better movement and a far better offense.

I wouldn't say Rondo was better than Parker either. Whichever way you cut it, the Spurs were a better functioning team with equal or better talent at the absolute worst.
Come on, there is no clear cut advantage one way or the other. I think it's entirely fare to say 2013 Spurs = 2010 Celtics. Both took the champions seven games as well.

[plowking]

What has to be considered is that Pau and Odom were healthy during those runs. Bosh was out in 2012 and Wade wasn't really 100%. In 2013 we already know how limited Wade was. So in the end it kind of evens out.

Another great point.

Even if competition was slightly worse in some cases, in 2013 Wade was on his last legs for the season, and in 2012 Bosh was out for the majority of the Pacers series just about.

[Cold soul]

2008-2010 Lakers in 6 games against either Heat team expect maybe 12 Miami Heat. The Lakers have the better coach, roster, and the top player.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The Lakers have the better coach, roster, and the top player.
:biggums:

[plowking]

Come on, there is no clear cut advantage one way or the other. I think it's entirely fare to say 2013 Spurs = 2010 Celtics. Both took the champions seven games as well.

Really? Just watch both teams and its apparent which one is better than the other. Spurs had some of the best offense we've seen in basketball in years. Had no weaknesses, and a great guard running the show, as well as a great bench.
They were a more well rounded team, as well as having the best coach of all time, or at the very worst top 3.

I don't think the Celtics have any case over them, at all.

[Budadiiii]

:biggums:
People continue to sleep on Dwayne Wade. :facepalm

[chazzy]

The biggest one is 2010 Suns being better than 2013 Pacers. Not a chance in hell. One if built for the playoffs, the other is an overachieving team that clearly isn't built for playoff, grind it out ball.
The 2010 Suns had the 4th highest offensive rating of all time and they got better as the season went on. They swept a pretty solid Spurs team right before facing the Lakers and were on a roll.. the WCF was actually pretty close

[Cold soul]

:biggums:

Yeah, I think Kobe during 08 and 09 playoff runs were just as good as Lebron during those years. If Kobe would of won 08 against the Celtics that would of made it more in his favor, but sadly it didn't happen.

[DMAVS41]

You can't really use that kind of logic, 08 hawks took 08 celtics to 7 games yet 08 celtics beat 08 lakers in 6.

Bynum was injured in the playoffs and averaged like 8 points, he isn't gonna be a factor against the heat. Lebron is still the best player on the floor and let's not act like MWP is gonna shut down lebron.

There's no way 10 lakers beat 13 heat in 5.

Yea, you actually can use logic. Especially because the series I am referencing isn't some early round against an average team.

Yes, there is...they 10 Lakers were better than the 13 Spurs...and then posed an even worse matchup for the Heat. With Kobe being better than anyone on the Spurs. Gasol actually probably being as good or better than anyone on the Spurs. Then they had Artest who could actually at least make Lebron work...and Bynum playing 25 minutes a game.

There are two things people tend to ignore about the 10 Lakers and 13 Heat.

1. Bynum was actually solid for the Lakers in 10. He played around 25 minutes a game and put up 9/7

2. The 2013 were a ****ing shell of the team they were in the regular season. Wade was hobbled...Bosh was slumping. Battier couldn't hit a shot..etc.

The 10 Lakers were just better in the playoffs. And they win that series easily.

[DMAVS41]

The Spurs hung in there because of their incredible 3pt shooting. I don't see anyone on the Lakers, who could do what Green, and to a lesser extent, Neal did. The Spurs basically had 5 players who were destroying the Heat (Parker, Duncan, Green, Neal, and Leonard). With the Lakers, Miami wouldn't have the same problem.

'11 Heat vs '08 Lakers? The Heat would absolutely annihilate them. Prime Wade, a near 20/10 Bosh, and a 20/7/7 LeBron? Yeah, no way in hell are the Lakers stopping them.

'12 Heat >>>> essentially any version of the Kobe led Lakers. LeBron was just on another level in the Playoffs.


If in 11 Lebron plays normal...then yes...they destroy the 08 Lakers. If he plays like he did against the Mavs...the more I think about it...the more I think it's a toss up series...

That is the only one in question for me.

The 12 Heat are beating the 09 Lakers pretty easily in my opinion

And I have no idea what people are talking about in the 13 Heat vs 10 Lakers debate. Lakers win easily in 5.

[MMM]

The 2009-2010 Celtics would beat the Heat, let alone Lakers

Healthy 08-10 Celtics beat both. I'm assuming they are both healthy as well.

[HOoopCityJones]

You guys are underrating the 09 squad.

Kobe was a man on a mission that year.


Then again so was the Big Three in '12.

[DMAVS41]

You guys are underrating the 09 squad.

Kobe was a man on a mission that year.


Then again so was the Big Three in '12.

I don't really think we are under-rating them...they were great.

But 12 Lebron was better than 09 Kobe imo...and then Wade was still balling...and Bosh was back by the finals.

They just had too much and actually posed a tough matchup for the Lakers...Kobe would have had to play hard on defense all game and carry the scoring load. Remember, the 09 Lakers didn't have Bynum.

No doubt Kobe is one of the best ever, but he can't do that and beat a peak Lebron with Wade/Bosh in the process.

I think in a hypothetical like this, you have to give it to the team with the best player...and the better supporting cast.

[Demitri98]

Lakers got a slightly-past-his-peak Kobe, Artest and young Ariza to contain LeBron and Wade. Bosh would get demolished in the you-know-what by Bynum and Gasol.

[MavsSuperFan]

lakers win in 7

[DMAVS41]

Lakers got a slightly-past-his-peak Kobe, Artest and young Ariza to contain LeBron and Wade. Bosh would get demolished in the you-know-what by Bynum and Gasol.

In 2010 vs 2013? Absolutely...

In 2009 vs 2012? Just no...Lebron would be the best player in the series. And he had a better supporting cast than Kobe did. Not to mention Bynum didn't play much or well in 09. Trust me...being able to throw Lebron/Wade/Battier at Kobe would have made life extremely difficult on him...and even worse...he'd have to defend for all his minutes because Wade and Lebron would beast otherwise.

The 09 Lakers are not beating the 12 Heat...

[DMAVS41]

Another great point.

Even if competition was slightly worse in some cases, in 2013 Wade was on his last legs for the season, and in 2012 Bosh was out for the majority of the Pacers series just about.

I don't see the relevance with Bosh. He was back in the finals in 2012 and played very well.

Totally agree about 13 though...not enough people give enough value to just how hurt Wade was in 13 and how poorly the Heat were actually playing.

[Rocketswin2013]

The Spurs hung in there because of their incredible 3pt shooting. I don't see anyone on the Lakers, who could do what Green, and to a lesser extent, Neal did. The Spurs basically had 5 players who were destroying the Heat (Parker, Duncan, Green, Neal, and Leonard). With the Lakers, Miami wouldn't have the same problem.

'11 Heat vs '08 Lakers? The Heat would absolutely annihilate them. Prime Wade, a near 20/10 Bosh, and a 20/7/7 LeBron? Yeah, no way in hell are the Lakers stopping them.

'12 Heat >>>> essentially any version of the Kobe led Lakers. LeBron was just on another level in the Playoffs.
1. Bynum is literally a rich man's Roy hibbert.... let that sink in
... He would ****stomp every single one of Miami's rotational front court players on the low-block. (Note: this is a Lakers squad that out rebounded Dwight ****ing Howard in his prime by a stupid-large margin......Miami is the worst rebounding team to win an NBA title, in the NBA's HISTORY.

2.Lamar Odom would have given them hell in every facet. We all know Spoelstra likes to hide LeBron on weaker players( Don't worry, not bashing, coaches do that to every great player to avoid foul trouble), so who could LeBron guard if there's a lineup of Fisher-Kobe-Odom-Gasol-Bynum? Matchup hell.

3. Pau Gasol in those title runs was a much better player than Tim Duncan on both ends. Bottom line. And he was everything Bosh wanted to be.

Lamar Odom: 10 rebounds per game

Andrew Bynum 10 rebounds per game

Pau Gasol: 11 rebounds per game

Miami does not have as big of a mismatch anywhere as big as LA does on the frontcourt. Bottom line. Any LA team vs any Miami team in 6 max.

[aj1987]

1. Bynum is literally a rich man's Roy hibbert.... let that sink in
... He would ****stomp every single one of Miami's rotational front court players on the low-block. (Note: this is a Lakers squad that out rebounded Dwight ****ing Howard in his prime by a stupid-large margin......Miami is the worst rebounding team to win an NBA title, in the NBA's HISTORY.
2.4 rebounds per game is a "stupid-large" margin? Miami get out rebounded by more than twice that, literally every single game and they still obliterate their opponents. Miami is the worst rebounding team, true. That's why they prioritize efficiency. To cut down on wasted possessions.


2.Lamar Odom would have given them hell in every facet. We all know Spoelstra likes to hide LeBron on weaker players( Don't worry, not bashing, coaches do that to every great player to avoid foul trouble), so who could LeBron guard if there's a lineup of Fisher-Kobe-Odom-Gasol-Bynum? Matchup hell.
Actually, LeBron doesn't foul much. He guards the weaker player to conserve energy for the offensive end. When required, he did shut down PG in the ECF (G7). When that lineup is on the floor, Miami would likely have Chalmers/Rio/Wade-LeBron-Battier/Haslem-Bosh-Andersen. Battier was a terrific defender and Haslem was pretty good as well. Bosh on Gasol, Andersen on Bynum, LeBron on Kobe, and Wade on Fisher. Who the heck in that Laker lineup would stop LeBron and Wade? The Lakers backcourt is gonna get wrecked.


3. Pau Gasol in those title runs was a much better player than Tim Duncan on both ends. Bottom line. And he was everything Bosh wanted to be.
Not defensively. On the offensive end, he was much better, but lets not forget that Timmy was playing DPOY level defense last year.


Lamar Odom: 10 rebounds per game

Andrew Bynum 10 rebounds per game

Pau Gasol: 11 rebounds per game
How are Bynum and Odom jumping from 4-8 to 10 rebounds per game?


Miami does not have as big of a mismatch anywhere as big as LA does on the front court.
:oldlol: @ Odom trying to stop LeBron. There's a reason why LeBron dropped 30/8/7/2/1 on 50% against the Lakers between '08 and '10, during their 6 games (of which, LeBron won 4).


Bottom line. Any LA team vs any Miami team in 6 max.
Yep. Miami would absolutely destroy those LA teams.

[zoom17]

lakers win in 7

I thought the Heat are stacked though.:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

Do heat fans have any objective evidence to support the fact that pau/odom/Bynum wouldn't destroy Miami front line worse than what west/Hibbert did?

Also how would they contain a super version of Paul George in kobe while helping on the big men?

Indus biggest problem was ball security and passing through seams.. Kobe and pau and odom are all much better passers than George west hibbert

[Rocketswin2013]

2.4 rebounds per game is a "stupid-large" margin? Miami get out rebounded by more than twice that, literally every single game and they still obliterate their opponents. Miami is the worst rebounding team, true. That's why they prioritize efficiency. To cut down on wasted possessions.


Actually, LeBron doesn't foul much. He guards the weaker player to conserve energy for the offensive end. When required, he did shut down PG in the ECF (G7). When that lineup is on the floor, Miami would likely have Chalmers/Rio/Wade-LeBron-Battier/Haslem-Bosh-Andersen. Battier was a terrific defender and Haslem was pretty good as well. Bosh on Gasol, Andersen on Bynum, LeBron on Kobe, and Wade on Fisher. Who the heck in that Laker lineup would stop LeBron and Wade? The Lakers backcourt is gonna get wrecked.


Not defensively. On the offensive end, he was much better, but lets not forget that Timmy was playing DPOY level defense last year.


How are Bynum and Odom jumping from 4-8 to 10 rebounds per game?


:oldlol: @ Odom trying to stop LeBron. There's a reason why LeBron dropped 30/8/7/2/1 on 50% against the Lakers between '08 and '10, during their 6 games (of which, LeBron won 4).


Yep. Miami would absolutely destroy those LA teams.

1. Considering Dwight was rebounding at Rodman levels in the playoffs, holding him to just 10 per game is an unreal feat. And yes, Miami gets rebounded on even worse, imagine if they would have faced the greatest rebounding trio in NBA history?




2. LOL. Bosh plays EXACTLY how Pau would want a big-man to play on him, soft, non-physical D and would try to use his length. Which would be terrible against Gasol, Gasol out-weighs and his way taller than him, he would shoot right over the top of Bosh. LOL at the thought of LeBron guarding Kobe, Spoelstra would never let him do it , quick cheap fouls automatically. LOL @ Haslem guarding Odom out on the perimeter, easy dunk everytime he touches the ball and faces up on him from the 3 point line.

(And to comment on your stupid point about LeBron not fouling....... like i said, he plays spot up shooters who have no offensive game. Easy covers.)

And lastly 6'10(at best) 245 pound, 4 rebounds per game Andersen on 7'0 280 pound, "rich man's Roy hibbert" Bynum.....I mean......would he even get.....a rebound? Hell, **** a rebound, would he even get a stop?:facepalm

3. Andrew Bynum rebounds per game in 08', 09', and 10': 10 RPG, 8 RPG , 8 RPG

Odom in those 3 years: 11 RPG, 8 RPG, 10 RPG,

Gasol: 8 RPG, 10 RPG, 11 RPG................

Stop the 4-8 RPG BS exaggerations. All of them are better rebounders than Miami ever had during this run.

4. Odom doesn't always have to be the one to Guard LeBron, you have Ariza and Artest in 09 and 10. Overall, Miami would be way too outmatched.

LA in 6 at worst for LA. blowouts are more than likely.

[tpols]

I thought the Heat are stacked though.:confusedshrug:
Styles make fights.. you guys are using series like the 2012 finals and acting like heat would play the same against the Thunder as they would against LA.. When they're nothing alike.

LA is basically the pacers with better big men and a top 5 GOAT perimeter player.. heat struggled with PGs shooting because they had to help down low so much.. now imagine kobe in his place. He'd put on an exhibition

[DMAVS41]

Do heat fans have any objective evidence to support the fact that pau/odom/Bynum wouldn't destroy Miami front line worse than what west/Hibbert did?

Also how would they contain a super version of Paul George in kobe while helping on the big men?

Indus biggest problem was ball security and passing through seams.. Kobe and pau and odom are all much better passers than George west hibbert


Simple. They don't.

The 10 Lakers rape the 13 Heat.

[AnaheimLakers24]

09 lakers beat those 5 teams

[DMAVS41]

09 lakers beat those 5 teams

They don't beat the 12 Heat.

Lebron would be the best player in the series...and he'd have more help than Kobe actually. And Bynum wasn't nearly as good in 09 as he was in 10...also, 12 Wade is under-rated. Kobe in 09 was better, but Kobe having to guard Wade/Lebron...and then being guarded by Wade/Lebron/Battier would be trouble for him.

And as good as Gasol was...he's not good enough to be the difference in that series.

[tpols]

They don't beat the 12 Heat.

Lebron would be the best player in the series...and he'd have more help than Kobe actually. And Bynum wasn't nearly as good in 09 as he was in 10...also, 12 Wade is under-rated. Kobe in 09 was better, but Kobe having to guard Wade/Lebron...and then being guarded by Wade/Lebron/Battier would be trouble for him.

And as good as Gasol was...he's not good enough to be the difference in that series.
Bron would be the best player in 2013 too.. 13 Bron is better than 10 kobe.. He's in the middle of his prime while kobe was on the last year of his.

So that reasoning doesn't work.. since you claimed that 10 Lakers would beat 13 miami and the same reasoning applies.

What would change? Kobe has ariza one year and artest the next.. Fisher both years. Almost identical circumstances

[aj1987]

1. Considering Dwight was rebounding at Rodman levels in the playoffs, holding him to just 10 per game is an unreal feat. And yes, Miami gets rebounded on even worse, imagine if they would have faced the greatest rebounding trio in NBA history?
Wrong again. Dwight averaged 15 per game and the Lakers out rebounded them by 2.4. I never said that Miami wouldn't get out rebounded. I'm saying that this happens to Miami literally every game and yet, they still manage to win. They got out rebounded by 8 in the ECF and they still won.



2. LOL. Bosh plays EXACTLY how Pau would want a big-man to play on him, soft, non-physical D and would try to use his length. Which would be terrible against Gasol, Gasol out-weighs and his way taller than him, he would shoot right over the top of Bosh. LOL at the thought of LeBron guarding Kobe, Spoelstra would never let him do it , quick cheap fouls automatically. LOL @ Haslem guarding Odom out on the perimeter, easy dunk everytime he touches the ball and faces up on him from the 3 point line.
Yeah, I'm posting straight up facts and all you've got it lol's and my player > your player? FACT: LeBron straight up destroyed the Lakers, when he was with the damn Cav's. FACT: LeBron never fouled out when he played against Kobe. FACT: LeBron is a smart defender, who doesn't pick up cheap fouls.

NOBODY on the Lakers can guard LeBron. Battier and Haslem would help on Odom. It's not like his 10 and 7 or 12 and 8 would hurt the Heat.

Lets also not forget that the Lakers literally can't stop the Heat, while their main scorer in Kobe would get absolutely harassed by LeBron and Wade, with help from Battier. If the Lakers do actually win a series, Gasol wins the FMVP.


(And to comment on your stupid point about LeBron not fouling....... like i said, he plays spot up shooters who have no offensive game. Easy covers.)
Like Rose in '11, Durant in '12, Pierce in '12, Melo in '12, TP in 13, and PG in '13, right? 'Cause all of them are spot up shooters? Idiot.


And lastly 6'10(at best) 245 pound, 4 rebounds per game Andersen on 7'0 280 pound, "rich man's Roy hibbert" Bynum.....I mean......would he even get.....a rebound? Hell, **** a rebound, would he even get a stop?:facepalm
The 6/4 Andrew Bynum or the 7/5 Andrew Bynum (7/5 against the '10 Celtics, BTW).


3. Andrew Bynum rebounds per game in 08', 09', and 10': 10 RPG, 8 RPG , 8 RPG
6/4 against the 6'10 Howard and 7/5 against the Celtics.


Odom in those 3 years: 11 RPG, 8 RPG, 10 RPG
8 against the Magic and 6 agains the Celtics.


Stop the 4-8 RPG BS exaggerations. All of them are better rebounders than Miami ever had during this run.
Odom: 8 per game against the Magic and 6 against the Celtics.
Bynum: 4 against the Magic and 5 against the Celtics.


4. Odom doesn't always have to be the one to Guard LeBron, you have Ariza and Artest in 09 and 10. Overall, Miami would be way too outmatched.
Again, LeBron has routinely DESTROYED them, while playing with the shitty Cav's. What do you think he's gonna do to them, when he has more help.


LA in 6 at worst for LA. blowouts are more than likely.
Keep living in that dream world.

[DMAVS41]

Bron would be the best player in 2013 too.. 13 Bron is better than 10 kobe.. He's in the middle of his prime while kobe was on the last year of his.

So that reasoning doesn't work.. since you claimed that 10 Lakers would beat 13 miami and the same reasoning applies.

What would change? Kobe has ariza one year and artest the next.. Fisher both years. Almost identical circumstances

Are you serious?

Both Wade and Bosh were much worse in 2013.

Like, seriously...Wade wasn't a hobbled mess in 2012 like he was in 2013. Not to mention that Bynum was better in 2010 as well.

How are the Lakers beating the 12 Heat? Lebron is the best player and his more help than Kobe. Even worse, the Heat can throw Lebron, much healthier Wade, and Battier at Kobe all game...and Kobe has to guard the 12 version of Wade (again, much better than 13 Wade)...

How are they winning? Gasol is better than Bosh, but not by enough to overcome the above.

I mean...Lebron's help in 12 is just easily better than it was in 13. And Kobe's help in 10, imo, was better than it was in 09.

The reasoning makes perfect sense.

Shit...really just look at Wade. I can't tell if 12 Wade is under-rated...or people don't realize just how much Wade dropped off in 13.

[tpols]

@dmavs.. true wade and bosh were better..but the pacers did the same thing to them in 2012 as they did in 2013.. so if the pacers could compete like that so could the lakers.

09 kobes getting slept on.. He was much better than 2012 wade.. Gasol was dirty that year too. He's much better than west or hibbert and they gave miami fits

@aj why are you bringing up the cavs? They were one of the best rebounding and low post defense playing teams in the league. LA could never take advantage of the cavs big men like they could Joel anthony and bosh.

Also odom stats against one of the best rebounding teams in the league in the magic are not comparable to what he'd do to the heat.

[aj1987]

@aj why are you bringing up the cavs? They were one of the best rebounding and low post defense playing teams in the league. LA could never take advantage of the cavs big men like they could Joel anthony and bosh.
Just trying to prove that Ariza, Artest, and anyone else from the Lakers couldn't stop a LeBron without a jumper. What do you think the current LeBron would do to them?


Also odom stats against one of the best rebounding teams in the league in the magic are not comparable to what he'd do to the heat.
True. Odom had 8 a game against the Magic, who were one of the best rebounding teams, but only 6 against the Celtics, who were at the bottom, in terms of rebounding.

[DMAVS41]

@dmavs.. true wade and bosh were better..but the pacers did the same thing to them in 2012 as they did in 2013.. so if the pacers could compete like that so could the lakers.

09 kobes getting slept on.. He was much better than 2012 wade.. Gasol was dirty that year too. He's much better than west or hibbert and they gave miami fits

@aj why are you bringing up the cavs? They were one of the best rebounding and low post defense playing teams in the league. LA could never take advantage of the cavs big men like they could Joel anthony and bosh.

Also odom stats against one of the best rebounding teams in the league in the magic are not comparable to what he'd do to the heat.

Nobody is sleeping on Kobe. It's just that his team is slightly worse going against, as you admitted, a better player. Not to mention would be facing the best perimeter defense he's ever faced in terms of a matchup having to go up against the three headed monster of Wade, Battier, and Lebron.

The Lakers don't have a Pacers level defense in 09...and again Bynum (as you Kobe fans always point out) wasn't as good in 09 as he was in 10. Either way, it's not like Bosh/Haslem/Anthony is some terrible frontline anyway.

You are also always propping up Bosh and saying he's only slightly worse than Gasol...so I have no idea how you think Gasol and Odom are going to be enough to overcome these issues.

Again...2013 is completely different. Wade and Bosh were both playing much worse...and the Lakers were slightly better in 10 than they were in 09 in my opinion. Bynum could have played more minutes in the finals as well...he played 6 more minutes per game in the 10 finals than he did in 09.

It's not like I'm saying the Lakers wouldn't win a game or something, but I think it's pretty clear that best player in series with more help...and a less than ideal matchup for Kobe on both ends...leads to the Heat winning in any accurate hypothetical.

[TheNaturalWR]

I'm convinced, like you, that the 12 Heat beat the 09 Lakers and the 10 Lakers easily beat the 13 Heat.

11 vs 08 is tough...if Lebron plays normal...the 11 Heat destroy the 08 Lakers. The 11 Heat are really under-rated here...and I'm not saying that to prop Dirk/Mavs. I don't need them to get credit...it's just that the 11 Heat with Lebron playing normal would be the best playoff team the Heat have had.

They blew through the East going 12-3...Went 8-2 against the Bulls/Celtics...both very good to great teams. Beat the Bulls in 5 with Wade not playing a great series at all...

People ignore that the 11 Heat were elite on both ends (3rd offense and 5th defense)...and after the first 17 game slow start...they pretty much just dominated the shit out of the league until they were up 15 against the Mavs in game 2 of the finals...

If you could have polled the world at that moment about the Mavs chances to win the series...they would have been astronomical...then this weird thing happened with Lebron getting punked on both ends...and Dirk/Terry just continued their epic onslaught in crunch time that the league has really never seen (Dirk's 4th qtr and clutch play in the 11 playoffs was the best since early 90's Jordan)

So if Lebron doesn't choke...the 11 Heat would beat the 08 Lakers in 4 or 5. If he chokes...I have no idea...the more I think about it...the more I still think they have a chance. The 11 Mavs were better than the 08 Lakers in my opinion...and it's not like the Mavs beat the Heat easily...and I think the Mavs posed a tougher matchup as well.

I have a question, do you think the 11 Heat were the best version of the Heat? Because the majority believes the Heat from 11' on and now are more complete which I strongly disagree with.

[DMAVS41]

I have a question, do you think the 11 Heat were the best version of the Heat? Because the majority believes the Heat from 11' on and now are more complete which I strongly disagree with.

Yes, I do.

After their 9-8 start...they went 49-16 the rest of the way (about a 62 win pace)

They had an elite offense (3rd best) and an elite defense (5th best)

Most importantly, they had a peak Wade as well...and his value is being far too under-rated when we start comparing these teams.

They blew through the East going 12-3...with a combined 8-2 record against a very good Celtics team and deadly Bulls team. What makes it even more impressive is that they backdoor swept the Bulls despite Wade playing subpar in that series.

There was not some flaw with the 11 Heat. All they needed was for their big 3 to play well and they would have dominated the Mavs as well.

I posted this earlier, but so much revisionist history is going on now about the 11 Heat.

Think about it this way;

They were huge favorites going into the finals. They had just dominated the only team people gave a chance to beat the Heat despite Wade not playing great. They enter the finals and win game 1. Then they have a 15 point at home in game 2 in the 4th qtr with 6 minutes left.

Lets pause here...what do you think the odds it would have taken for people to bet the Mavs to win that series at this moment? The entire world would have bet their life savings on the Heat to win it all.

Then something crazy happened. Terry and Dirk got going...and Lebron crumbled on both ends...and the Heat just never recovered as Lebron went into a shell.

Again...it wasn't the team. It was Lebron coming up empty in the biggest series of his life. And it wasn't just offense...his defense was a step slow...his rotations lagging behind...missed rotations even at some points. It is like 99.9 percent on Lebron...it wasn't some team flaw.

Now, do we credit the Mavs for doing that to Lebron? Yes, at least a little as we just saw Lebron go into a similar shell against a much weaker 13 Spurs team than the 11 Mavs, but they couldn't close the door. It was the Spurs that choked and gave new life to the Heat...in 11, Dirk and Terry stomped on the Heat when they were vulnerable.

So if you ask me which Heat team was the best with Lebron playing normal...it's clearly the 11 Heat for me. Again...people are really under-rating just how much better a peak Wade makes a team...

I've put up the numbers a number of times, but nobody even pays attention because they have bought into the narrative;

2011 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense (despite playing 25 percent of the season with no chemistry and going through growing pains)

2012 Heat - 8th best offense and 4th best defense (both Wade and Bosh declined...and both were hurt at times in the playoffs)

2013 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense (Wade was like 60% in the playoffs and Bosh was in a slump)


Like I said...people just ignore it. They are really going to not take the most balanced team in terms of elite offense and defense...with a peak Wade and all that he can do as an added bonus?

No, the only reason it's even debatable is because Lebron choked his ass off. Even he didn't...they beat the Mavs in 5 and we are talking about one of the most dominant playoff runs given the competition ever. They should have gone 16-4 in the playoffs...while beating 3 different teams winning 58 or more.

Instead, the meltdown happened and people actually think the injured and slumping 13 Heat were better...:facepalm

[chazzy]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.

[SamuraiSWISH]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.
Wade wasn't that bad even with the knee in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg

[DMAVS41]

09 Lakers vs 12 Heat would be a really good series, with LA having a rebounding and interior scoring advantage and Lebron doing his thing. His jumper was a bit off that playoff run so I wonder if Phil would employ a Popovich-esque scheme with Ariza and the Laker bigs roaming the paint. Kobe would still get his as well, especially with Wade being off and on with his knee. Bosh isn't at 100%.

I don't really see it that way. Kobe would definitely get his, but he'd have to work his ass of against Wade, Lebron, and Battier.

Wade was still really good though...good enough play his quality defense and still give you like 23/5/5...he'd make Kobe work way harder than normal on both ends.

Bosh wasn't 100%, but he was healthy enough to play 37 minutes a game in the finals (when the two teams would play)

And while Lebron does have weaknesses, so do Kobe and Gasol...and Lebron would just simply be the best player in that series.

12 Wade, even not fully healthy, is better than Gasol

And Bosh and Odom were about as valuable as each other...probably a slight edge to Bosh

And Bynum wasn't impactful enough in 09 to sway anything...

Good series? Sure, it would have been a good series in which the Heat won in 6.

[DMAVS41]

Wade wasn't that bad even with the knee in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg

Yea...the 12 playoffs from Wade are under-rated here. He wast still great on both ends...and for this comparison...still more valuable than Pau Gasol

It just looked worse because the year before he was a beast in the playoffs and looked way better

[SamuraiSWISH]

Either way, I think it's pretty definitive for me:

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers

If LeBron has performance anxiety:
2011 Heat < 2008 Lakers

2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers (7 games)

[Suguru101]

Yes, I do.

After their 9-8 start...they went 49-16 the rest of the way (about a 62 win pace)

They had an elite offense (3rd best) and an elite defense (5th best)

Most importantly, they had a peak Wade as well...and his value is being far too under-rated when we start comparing these teams.

They blew through the East going 12-3...with a combined 8-2 record against a very good Celtics team and deadly Bulls team. What makes it even more impressive is that they backdoor swept the Bulls despite Wade playing subpar in that series.

There was not some flaw with the 11 Heat. All they needed was for their big 3 to play well and they would have dominated the Mavs as well.

I posted this earlier, but so much revisionist history is going on now about the 11 Heat.

Think about it this way;

They were huge favorites going into the finals. They had just dominated the only team people gave a chance to beat the Heat despite Wade not playing great. They enter the finals and win game 1. Then they have a 15 point at home in game 2 in the 4th qtr with 6 minutes left.

Lets pause here...what do you think the odds it would have taken for people to bet the Mavs to win that series at this moment? The entire world would have bet their life savings on the Heat to win it all.

Then something crazy happened. Terry and Dirk got going...and Lebron crumbled on both ends...and the Heat just never recovered as Lebron went into a shell.

Again...it wasn't the team. It was Lebron coming up empty in the biggest series of his life. And it wasn't just offense...his defense was a step slow...his rotations lagging behind...missed rotations even at some points. It is like 99.9 percent on Lebron...it wasn't some team flaw.

Now, do we credit the Mavs for doing that to Lebron? Yes, at least a little as we just saw Lebron go into a similar shell against a much weaker 13 Spurs team than the 11 Mavs, but they couldn't close the door. It was the Spurs that choked and gave new life to the Heat...in 11, Dirk and Terry stomped on the Heat when they were vulnerable.

So if you ask me which Heat team was the best with Lebron playing normal...it's clearly the 11 Heat for me. Again...people are really under-rating just how much better a peak Wade makes a team...

I've put up the numbers a number of times, but nobody even pays attention because they have bought into the narrative;

2011 Heat - 3rd best offense and 5th best defense (despite playing 25 percent of the season with no chemistry and going through growing pains)

2012 Heat - 8th best offense and 4th best defense (both Wade and Bosh declined...and both were hurt at times in the playoffs)

2013 Heat - 2nd best offense and 9th best defense (Wade was like 60% in the playoffs and Bosh was in a slump)


Like I said...people just ignore it. They are really going to not take the most balanced team in terms of elite offense and defense...with a peak Wade and all that he can do as an added bonus?

No, the only reason it's even debatable is because Lebron choked his ass off. Even he didn't...they beat the Mavs in 5 and we are talking about one of the most dominant playoff runs given the competition ever. They should have gone 16-4 in the playoffs...while beating 3 different teams winning 58 or more.

Instead, the meltdown happened and people actually think the injured and slumping 13 Heat were better...:facepalm

Are you still trying to sneak that point in? The 2011 Mavs weren't a better team than the 2013 Spurs, just stop.

[chazzy]

Wade wasn't that bad in the 2012 playoffs. 23 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg
Yeah but he was just hard to predict on a game by game basis. His efficiency fluctuated like crazy because he kept getting his knee drained throughout the run. He had a 5 point 15 FG% game, and then that 41/10 68 FG% 2 games later :biggums:

Yea...the 12 playoffs from Wade are under-rated here. He wast still great on both ends...
Considering he was playing off of a monster Lebron, his efficiency leaves a lot to be desired

[DMAVS41]

Either way, I think it's pretty definitive for me:

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers

If LeBron has performance anxiety:
2011 Heat < 2008 Lakers

2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers (7 games)

Exactly how I feel as well...although honestly, I don't think the Heat make it to 7 in the 13 vs 10 series. I think they lose in 5 or 6. The 10 Lakers pose a worse matchup for the 13 Heat than the 13 Spurs did...and were just a much better team. Considering the Spurs should have won in 6...I can't see the Heat getting to 7 against a better team.

[DMAVS41]

Are you still trying to sneak that point in? The 2011 Mavs weren't a better team than the 2013 Spurs, just stop.

Sneak it in? It's not even close. The 13 Spurs are extremely over-rated here. They lucked out with the WB injury...and then couldn't beat a much worse Heat team that the Mavs beat in 6 in 11.

11 Dirk was clearly better than anyone the Spurs had in 13...and Dirk had a better supporting cast than Duncan as well...and Dirk's help actually stepped up while Duncan's didn't really...especially Parker. Terry was way better than Parker...

[DMAVS41]

Yeah but he was just hard to predict on a game by game basis. His efficiency fluctuated like crazy because he kept getting his knee drained throughout the run. He had a 5 point 15 FG% game, and then that 41/10 68 FG% 2 games later :biggums:

Yea, but I think you act like he was worse than he was.

He put up 21/6/5 against the best defense (celtics)

He put up 26/6/3 against the Pacers

He put up 23/6/5 against the Thunder

It's not like he was just going to have an awful series or something...

[chazzy]

Yea, but I think you act like he was worse than he was.

He put up 21/6/5 against the best defense (celtics) 51.8 TS%

He put up 26/6/3 against the Pacers 53.6 TS%

He put up 23/6/5 against the Thunder 51.6 TS%

It's not like he was just going to have an awful series or something...
Added efficiency.. that was my main point. He got his numbers, but he just wasn't very consistent

[chazzy]

Vs Pau...

18/11/3 on 62 TS% and more defensive impact. He would also have more of an advantage against Miami than Wade would against LA

[DMV2]

Either way, I think it's pretty definitive for me:

2011 Heat > 2008 Lakers

If LeBron has performance anxiety:
2011 Heat < 2008 Lakers

2012 Heat > 2009 Lakers
2013 Heat < 2010 Lakers (7 games)
Part of LeBron's failures in the 2011 Finals was due to Terry and Stevenson getting in his head, along with Mavs overall D.

Nobody on that 2008 Lakers team could have done to him. Ariza was like the 10th man at the time.

I do agree with your < and > statement, though.

[DMAVS41]

Added efficiency.. that was my main point. He got his numbers, but he just wasn't very consistent

You seem to be arguing something different...we all know Wade dropped off in 12, but he was still very good and still way better than any sg Kobe faced in 2009.

He didn't need to carry an offense or something...he just needed to essentially play the Gasol role...and I'm still taking Wade over Gasol.

Kobe would have had to guard Wade and Lebron at times...and be guarded at all times by either Wade, Lebron, or Battier...it would have been a really hard series on him.

Just not a good matchup to overcome the other team having the best player and more help.

[DMAVS41]

Vs Pau...

18/11/3 on 62 TS% and more defensive impact. He would also have more of an advantage against Miami than Wade would against LA

Really not sure about that, but it's more about the problems Wade is going to cause for Kobe. Because the Lakers are not winning that series without Kobe having a great series.

And I just don't see Kobe having a great series having to actually defend his position...while being guarded by 3 guys that can challenge him every play.

You know I love Gasol, but he isn't enough to push the Lakers over the top here. Not to mention I sadly think Bosh/Haslem/Anthony are being under-rated now...

[chazzy]

You know I love Gasol, but he isn't enough to push the Lakers over the top here. Not to mention I sadly think Bosh/Haslem/Anthony are being under-rated now...
Lol yeah, I'm biased because of how shocked I was at a totally average (on O) center like Hibbert looking so great against them.. but that was more to do with his physical advantage down low. Pau has more of a skilled game.. Bosh did a pretty good job against Dirk with his length and lateral movement.

[DMAVS41]

Lol yeah, I'm biased because of how shocked I was at a totally average (on O) center like Hibbert looking so great against them.. but that was more to do with his physical advantage down low. Pau has more of a skilled game.. Bosh did a pretty good job against Dirk with his length and lateral movement.

Yea...good point.

And that is exactly why if they had a better version of Bynum...I would change my tune.

It's like the 10 vs 13 matchup...I don't even think it would be close. Not only because the Heat were clearly worse, but Bynum was better and healthier and play that Hibbert role.

In 09 vs 12...I just think Lebron was a little better than Kobe. Wade was still very good to great and I'd still take him over Gasol. And then the Heat actually had a team that could make Kobe work his ass off on both ends.

And while Gasol would have the advantage, Bosh/Haslem/Anthony could hold their own better than I think some are giving credit for.

Obviously we don't know for sure, but I think this hypothetical should be given to the Heat. I agree it would have been interesting and great to watch though...watching Kobe go against Wade, Lebron, and Battier all taking turns guarding him would have been so fun to see. Who knows...maybe Kobe gets hot and kills it...just never know for sure.