Nets shoulda thrown in Deron for Rondo in big trade

[Dizzle-2k7]

Rondo on the nets :bowdown: That defense.. that leadership.. that heart.. that tenacity

Deron is softer than tissue. That ni66a belongs on the Raptors or Blazers.. get him off this contender :mad:

[el gringos]

Why would the nets want to downgrade?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not sure boston or Brooklyn do this.

[no pun intended]

Rondo would have trouble getting used to the fact that Jason Kidd is coaching him. Deron and Kidd already have a strong camaraderie with each other.

[Harison]

Not sure if its an upgrade, I wouldnt do it if I would run Nets.

[1~Gibson~1]

You must not watch basketball... Deron > Rondo

[It's A VC3!!!]

Deron and Rondo are equally skilled but totally different players. If you want 14/13 and have scorers on your team then you go for Rondo. If you want 20/10 and you want your PG to score at will and never pass up a shot, you go for Deron. With our team Rondo would be a better fit but I don't think either team really does this trade.

[The JKidd Kid]

Rondo on the nets :bowdown: That defense.. that leadership.. that heart.. that tenacity

Deron is softer than tissue. That ni66a belongs on the Raptors or Blazers.. get him off this contender :mad:

Deron is 10 times the player Rondo is. And Rondo is by no means a leader, hes just some nut job that had more suspensions than 3pt makes last season. Deron isn't soft at all, he's easily the most physical player starting at the PG position. He's constantly posting up other PGs and he has the size and strength to effectively guard SGs. I would have hung up the second Boston mentioned Rondos name if I was the Nets.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Rondo >>> Deron

[The JKidd Kid]

Rondo >>> Deron

I was wondering when you were going to show up. This thread had a serious lack of trolls.

[Pushxx]

I'm sorry, but when did people forget Rondo was the best player for a team he carried a quarter away to a championship? He single-handedly destroyed the favored Cavs and Magic.

Dude was the third best player in the playoffs in 2012 and took the eventual champions to the last quarter of game 7 in the ECF.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I was wondering when you were going to show up. This thread had a serious lack of trolls.


Deron is 10 times the player Rondo is.

:roll:

[The JKidd Kid]

:roll:

I know it's tough but eventually you have to wake up and realize that Rondo is just an average player that was put in the right situation to succeed.

Also, Silktheshocker is just a troll and doesn't have any real opinions on anything. He just shows up once in a while to troll the team of his choice for that day.

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll:

:applause:

Whats with the Nets homers on this board? They talk a big game for a team that lost to the Bulls bench players in the playoffs

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

You must not watch basketball... Deron > Rondo
depends what your team needs out of a point guard. if kg and pp were a few years younger w/ joe johnson, i'd surely take rondo for THAT team.

[The JKidd Kid]

depends what your team needs out of a point guard. if kg and pp were a few years younger w/ joe johnson, i'd surely take rondo for THAT team.

Why? Age is irrelevant in this comparison Deron is 28 and Rondo is 27, Rondo isn't some young, up and coming player, he is an established player in this league and The fact that he still hasn't developed a jump shot is just sad.

[It's A VC3!!!]

Why? Age is irrelevant in this comparison Deron is 28 and Rondo is 27, Rondo isn't some young, up and coming player, he is an established player in this league and The fact that he still hasn't developed a jump shot is just sad.
what nogunz was saying is that if you have 2, 3 or 4 scorers on your team then rondo is the better fit because he can rack up 13-17 assists without scoring and set up your stars and make them happy. rather then if you have 2,3,4 scorers and if you have deron, then deron won't set up his stars as good as rondo will because deron is a "score first pg". against, nets are fine with deron.

[The JKidd Kid]

what nogunz was saying is that if you have 2, 3 or 4 scorers on your team then rondo is the better fit because he can rack up 13-17 assists without scoring and set up your stars and make them happy. rather then if you have 2,3,4 scorers and if you have deron, then deron won't set up his stars as good as rondo will because deron is a "score first pg". against, nets are fine with deron.

I disagree, I feel that Derin would be better because hes also a great passer and isn't completely useless the second the ball leaves his hands like Rondo. When Deron passes to his scorers, he still provides floor spacing and a bail out option that Rondo just doesn't. We as Nets fans know what a lack of spacing can do to your scorers.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I know it's tough but eventually you have to wake up and realize that Rondo is just an average player that was put in the right situation to succeed.

You didn't watch the Knicks-Celtics series, did you? Or the 2012 ECF. Or the 2010 Cavs series. Or the 2009 Bulls series. Or basically any Celtics series since 2009

[The JKidd Kid]

You didn't watch the Knicks-Celtics series, did you? Or the 2012 ECF. Or the 2010 Cavs series. Or the 2009 Bulls series. Or basically any Celtics series since 2009

I did actually as the Celtics were my adopted team during the Nets dark ages. And what all these years have in common is elite offensive options around him. Let's see what he does when he's surrounded by scrubs because Deron average 21 and 9 when surrounded by Humphries and a bunch of players that arnt even in the league any more. There's a reason the Celtics played better without Rondo this year.

[wang4three]

Don't want Rondo. Rather ride my chances with Deron.

[Zan Tabak]

Don't think Boston would want a 'win now' player like Deron at this point. Think they would be looking more for young players or draft picks for Rondo.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I did actually as the Celtics were my adopted team during the Nets dark ages. And what all these years have in common is elite offensive options around him. Let's see what he does when he's surrounded by scrubs because Deron average 21 and 9 when surrounded by Humphries and a bunch of players that arnt even in the league any more.

So with Rondo only being a tenth of the player, what will he average? 2.1 and 0.9?


There's a reason the Celtics played better without Rondo this year.

Like I said... you didn't watch the Knicks series. We were mauled on offense because we didnt have a PG.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Rondo is going to exposed big time this season, especially when he has to take orders from a dorky, middle aged white guy who comes from the mid majors.
I'm seeing a Latrell Sprewell, PJ Carlisemo type situation where Rondo goes haywire and fights Stevens.

[Draz]

Rondo proved himself.

[Kiddlovesnets]

You dont trade the 2nd best PG in the league for the 4th/5th best PG in the league. Not mentioning Rondo's ego is not something we'd like to have for a young coach like Jason Kidd, dude does not even respect Doc Rivers.

[The JKidd Kid]

So with Rondo only being a tenth of the player, what will he average? 2.1 and 0.9?



Like I said... you didn't watch the Knicks series. We were mauled on offense because we didnt have a PG.

I was obviously exaggerating when I said 10 times, no need to be a smartass. Also, you could put any PG on that Team and they would've played better on offense, doesn't have to be Rondo. Another reason was that Pierce and Garnett were gassed from carrying the team. The Celtics still played better statistically with Rondo out of the lineup. Also, his ball dominating and lack of an outside shot obviously negatively impacted his teammates, because both Green and Terry had a resurgence when Rondo went down.

You could literally take any starting PG in the league and tell them to hold the ball 90% of the time and only pass and they would put up the same exact numbers as Rondo. The only reason he averages so many assists is because he can't score for his life and he forces passes ( which is shown in his 4 TOs).

[1~Gibson~1]

depends what your team needs out of a point guard. if kg and pp were a few years younger w/ joe johnson, i'd surely take rondo for THAT team.
I understand Rondo is pass first and Deron is score first but Deron can be a great passer too. He's never really had this much talent where he could be pass first and not have to score to win. Id keep Deron for floor spacing as well. You cant sag off of him on D. And Deron is a bigger guard that could cause mismatches against smaller "Nate Robinson" type guys.


Screw Rondo. Keepn Deron. Its that simple.

[1~Gibson~1]

Rondo is going to exposed big time this season, especially when he has to take orders from a dorky, middle aged white guy who comes from the mid majors.
I'm seeing a Latrell Sprewell, PJ Carlisemo type situation where Rondo goes haywire and fights Stevens.coaching wont be Boston's problem in the upcoming years. Maybe next year bc Brad will be adjusting to the NBA but Brad Stevens will be a great coach. The dude knows his Xs and Os. He'll likely surround himself with quality assistants as well.

[pegasus]

Based on their respective performances in the playoffs, I'd go with Rondo. Deron may be the more skilled and complete player, but the way Rondo elevates his game in the playoffs is really what differentiates the two for me.

Rondo has the ability and confidence to be the best player in any series. The fact that he believes that and backs it up with his game is immeasurable and something that I can't see Deron do.

[Kingwillball]

Based on their respective performances in the playoffs, I'd go with Rondo. Deron may be the more skilled and complete player, but the way Rondo elevates his game in the playoffs is really what differentiates the two for me.

Rondo has the ability and confidence to be the best player in any series. The fact that he believes that and backs it up with his game is immeasurable and something that I can't see Deron do.

I must say I pretty much agree with this as I was gonna write something similar..:rockon:

[Young X]

D-Will > Rondo

[Bigsmoke]

You didn't watch the Knicks-Celtics series, did you? Or the 2012 ECF. Or the 2010 Cavs series. Or the 2009 Bulls series. Or basically any Celtics series since 2009

yeah, the Celtics couldn't close out in game 7 in the 4th quarter because they couldn't find offense.... nor in game 5 in the 4th quarter.... nor in game 7 in the Finals.

Rondo offense is limited.

[ZHAKIDD532]

I don't think either team would to that to be honest.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I was obviously exaggerating when I said 10 times, no need to be a smartass.

There's no need to exaggerate either, when Rondo is at worst a top 5 PG.


The Celtics still played better statistically with Rondo out of the lineup.

The team played better without Rondo because the individuals stepped up. NOT because they play better without Rondo. Excuse me if I believe the coach, the players, and every other NBA analyst worth their salt instead of you.


Also, his ball dominating and lack of an outside shot obviously negatively impacted his teammates, because both Green and Terry had a resurgence when Rondo went down.

Green started playing better because he got more touches (because the team's best offensive player was down) and he was getting back to 100% from his surgery. Terry's resurgence happened after JR Smith elbowed him.


You could literally take any starting PG in the league and tell them to hold the ball 90% of the time and only pass and they would put up the same exact numbers as Rondo.

What an absolutely ridiculous statement. I could just as easily say I could put up Deron's numbers if you gave me his touches.

[The JKidd Kid]

There's no need to exaggerate either, when Rondo is at worst a top 5 PG.



The team played better without Rondo because the individuals stepped up. NOT because they play better without Rondo. Excuse me if I believe the coach, the players, and every other NBA analyst worth their salt instead of you.



Green started playing better because he got more touches (because the team's best offensive player was down) and he was getting back to 100% from his surgery. Terry's resurgence happened after JR Smith elbowed him.



What an absolutely ridiculous statement. I could just as easily say I could put up Deron's numbers if you gave me his touches.

My point was that Rondo is so ball dominant, that it negatively impacts his team. This is because guys like Terry and Green are prevented from doing what they do best and are forced to play off the ball, which is out of their comfort zone. Deron Williams doesnt have that sort of negative effect because hes probably the best off-ball PG and his great 3pt shooting provides spacing for his teammates, while Rondos defenders can help off him.

Also, if you told CP3, Williams, Parker, Westbrook or Curry to only pass, they could easily get 11 assists a game like Rondo. The reason they dont only pass is because unlike Rondo, theyre all elite scorers along with being elite passers.

[The JKidd Kid]

Based on their respective performances in the playoffs, I'd go with Rondo. Deron may be the more skilled and complete player, but the way Rondo elevates his game in the playoffs is really what differentiates the two for me.

Rondo has the ability and confidence to be the best player in any series. The fact that he believes that and backs it up with his game is immeasurable and something that I can't see Deron do.

Rondo Playoff Averages (Minus 06-07 season where he had a limited role):
16 PPG
.448 FG%
.281 3PT %
10.1 APG
6.8 RPG

Deron Playoff Averages:
21.1 PPG
.454 FG%
.401 3PT%
9.4 APG
3.6 RPG

Statistically Deron is still a better playoff performer than Rondo in scoring and shooting percentages. Rondos only advantage is a small assists lead and rebounding. Not to mention the added benefit that Deron gives to the offense through his ability to space the floor with elite 3pt shooting, and his added benefit on defense of his ability to guard multiple positions because of his size and strength. The idea that Rondon elevates his game in the playoffs is completely overblown. He had one AMAZING game against the Heat last season, but other than that hes been pretty average.

[BoutPractice]

I personally prefer Rondo, but the fact that Deron is a scoring threat from so many spots on the floor should be great for the Nets offense.

What could make the Nets so dangerous next year is that the defense can't sag off anyone or they'll get punished right away. The rotations have to be perfect, all the time. Meanwhile, Rondo allows the opposing team to roam a bit more on D - he's adept at countering this tactic, but it's undeniable that the defense won't be too afraid to give him a 3.

[Dizzle-2k7]

guess im the only one that saw deron get his ass whooped by NATE ROBINSON :roll:

[LA Lakers]

You do realize the Nets would never do this? Deron is their superstar and Rondo is now an X Factor due to injury. Pretty sure Pierce and KG are happy they get another year or two window to contend.

[bluechox2]

guess im the only one that saw deron get his ass whooped by NATE ROBINSON :roll:
this, and stop acting like kg and pierce are in their primes:lol

[artificial]

Pretty rare to see someone come up with lose-lose trade scenarios :roll:

[KyrieTheFuture]

Has the season really been over long enough for people to forget how garbage and cancerous deron Williams is? Holy hell the short memories of ISH.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Rondo Playoff Averages (Minus 06-07 season where he had a limited role):
16 PPG
.448 FG%
.281 3PT %
10.1 APG
6.8 RPG

Deron Playoff Averages:
21.1 PPG
.454 FG%
.401 3PT%
9.4 APG
3.6 RPG

Statistically Deron is still a better playoff performer than Rondo in scoring and shooting percentages. Rondos only advantage is a small assists lead and rebounding. Not to mention the added benefit that Deron gives to the offense through his ability to space the floor with elite 3pt shooting, and his added benefit on defense of his ability to guard multiple positions because of his size and strength. The idea that Rondon elevates his game in the playoffs is completely overblown. He had one AMAZING game against the Heat last season, but other than that hes been pretty average.

Are you seriously trying to say Deron Williams is a better defender than rondo?

[The JKidd Kid]

Has the season really been over long enough for people to forget how garbage and cancerous deron Williams is? Holy hell the short memories of ISH.

Garbage and cancerous? LMAO Hes head and shoulders above Irving's one dimensional, poor-mans Allen Iverson A$$.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Deron is a whiny little bitch that couldn't even lead the Nets past the Bulls C Team

[The JKidd Kid]

guess im the only one that saw deron get his ass whooped by NATE ROBINSON :roll:

Nate Robinson played better for one quarter LMAO. Deron was easily the best player in that series. Too bad coaching/team defense> Talent.

[The JKidd Kid]

Deron is a whiny little bitch that couldn't even lead the Nets past the Bulls C Team

Go troll somewhere else.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Garbage and cancerous? LMAO Hes head and shoulders above Irving's one dimensional, poor-mans Allen Iverson A$$.
So you can't prove me wrong so you make fun of my favorite player who's a better offensive player than yours anyway?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Go troll somewhere else.

How am I wrong? Deron isn't a winner, plain and simple.

[The JKidd Kid]

So you can't prove me wrong so you make fun of my favorite player who's a better offensive player than yours anyway?

Deron is more athletic, a better finisher, an equal shooter, a better defender, a better passer, less turnover prone, makes better decisions, doesnt take shitty shots, hes bigger, hes faster, he can play both guard positions. Do I really need to continue?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Deron is more athletic, a better finisher, an equal shooter, a better defender, a better passer, less turnover prone, makes better decisions, doesnt take shitty shots, hes bigger, hes faster, he can play both guard positions. Do I really need to continue?


quickness - rajon
speed - rajon
finisher - rajon
defender - RAJON BY A MILE
passer- RAJON BY TWO MILES
creator - RAJON BY THREE MILES
decisions - equal (ill take rajons playmaking)

the only thing deron has on rajon is 3 pt shooting and strength/size... everything else rajon dominates

just look at rebounds.. someone posted the stats earlier and rajon has DOUBLE THE REBOUNDS deron gets.. he's just got more heart/hustle PERIOD

[The JKidd Kid]

quickness - rajon
speed - rajon
finisher - rajon
defender - RAJON BY A MILE
passer- RAJON BY TWO MILES
creator - RAJON BY THREE MILES
decisions - equal (ill take rajons playmaking)

the only thing deron has on rajon is 3 pt shooting and strength/size... everything else rajon dominates

just look at rebounds.. someone posted the stats earlier and rajon has DOUBLE THE REBOUNDS deron gets.. he's just got more heart/hustle PERIOD

Speed - Rondo
Finisher - Deron (He can actually Dunk on an opposing player. See: Derrick Rose)
Defender - Deron (Deron after treatment held opposing PGs to a 12.6 PER, while Rondo held them to a 15.2 PER even with much superior defenders around him than Deron)
Passing - Deron (Deron has had multiple 10+ assist seasons and has a better Assist-Turnover ratio)
Creator- Deron (The fact that he draws so much attention because of his scoring makes him a more effective creator than Rondo.)
Decisions- Deron EASILY (Rondo forces tons of passes and as a result, he averages 4 TOs per game)

Rebounds are not important at the PG position, so this isnt a good point. Shooting at the PG however, is EXTREMELY important for an offense to run smoothly. If your PG cant shoot, as I said before, he becomes COMPLETELY USELESS when the ball isnt in his hands and is a DETRIMENT because of the fact that his defender can help off of him.

Deron is better in every way except speed and rebounding which isnt important, because PGs should be already running down the floor waiting for the outlet pass from the big.

Also in the post you responded to I was comparing Deron to Kyrie.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Deron is better in every way except speed and rebounding which isnt important, because PGs should be already running down the floor waiting for the outlet pass from the big.

where do you get the idea that Deron is a better defender than Rondo? Ive seen Rondo lockdown anyone from Paul to Lebron to Kobe (no joke). Rondo has routinely been praised as an ELITE defender since day 1.. where do you get your ideas from? I hope PER isnt your only indicator of good defense..

also Im curious if you think the nets still woulda lost this year against the bulls if Rondo was there instead of Deron.. I think the nets win in 5 or 6 if Rondo is there

[The JKidd Kid]

where do you get the idea that Deron is a better defender than Rondo? Ive seen Rondo lockdown anyone from Paul to Lebron to Kobe (no joke). Rondo has routinely been praised as an ELITE defender since day 1.. where do you get your ideas from? I hope PER isnt your only indicator of good defense..

also Im curious if you think the nets still woulda lost this year against the bulls if Rondo was there instead of Deron.. I think the nets win in 5 or 6 if Rondo is there
Also, Rondos never been praised as an elite defender, Ive sincerely never heard that in all of my years as a Celtics fan. And PER is the only concrete evidence to represent defense, especially when players that are guarded by Deron are putting up worse numbers than Rondos players, even though Deron has Lopez backing him up and Rondo has all-time great defender in Garnett backing him up. PER is also a great indicator of defense, because it takes into account the opponents entire offensive game, not just PPG.

If you can prove to me using a stat that Rondo is a better defender, then maybe ill believe you, but until you show me some concrete evidence I have to go with what the stats and my eyes tell me.

(Steals are not a good indicator of defense, because for every steal theres a good 5 gambles that didnt work out and the defensive player lost positioning because of it. If steals were an indication of defense, then we would consider guys like Monta Ellis good defenders, which we know just isnt true.)

Also, the whole problem against the Bulls was that they would clog the paint because of Evans and Wallace not being able to shoot. Imagine what they would do if Rondo was there instead of Deron :lol . The thought of it makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry.

[wang4three]

Speed - Rondo
Finisher - Deron (He can actually Dunk on an opposing player. See: Derrick Rose)
Defender - Deron (Deron after treatment held opposing PGs to a 12.6 PER, while Rondo held them to a 15.2 PER even with much superior defenders around him than Deron)
Passing - Deron (Deron has had multiple 10+ assist seasons and has a better Assist-Turnover ratio)
Creator- Deron (The fact that he draws so much attention because of his scoring makes him a more effective creator than Rondo.)
Decisions- Deron EASILY (Rondo forces tons of passes and as a result, he averages 4 TOs per game)

Rebounds are not important at the PG position, so this isnt a good point. Shooting at the PG however, is EXTREMELY important for an offense to run smoothly. If your PG cant shoot, as I said before, he becomes COMPLETELY USELESS when the ball isnt in his hands and is a DETRIMENT because of the fact that his defender can help off of him.

Deron is better in every way except speed and rebounding which isnt important, because PGs should be already running down the floor waiting for the outlet pass from the big.

Also in the post you responded to I was comparing Deron to Kyrie.

I don't know how new you are to this board, but Dizzle being on the opposite side of an argument is usually good enough. He's frequently wrong.

[The JKidd Kid]

I don't know how new you are to this board, but Dizzle being on the opposite side of an argument is usually good enough. He's frequently wrong.

Im pretty new, but at least hes not making outragous statements and is explaining his views, unlike many of the trolls on this forum.

[Dizzle-2k7]

I don't know how new you are to this board, but Dizzle being on the opposite side of an argument is usually good enough. He's frequently wrong.

:oldlol:

WANG4THREE one of the most bias posters when it comes to anything Illinois or Deron Williams related.. :no: :no:

[Dizzle-2k7]

Also, the whole problem against the Bulls was that they would clog the paint because of Evans and Wallace not being able to shoot. Imagine what they would do if Rondo was there instead of Deron :lol . The thought of it makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry.


Hmm.. what I saw was not an Xs and Os thing.. i saw a lack of street hunger in the nets.. if theres one thing Rajon never lacks, its street hunger.

Nets got bulled mentally and DW was a big problem with that

[unknowns8]

Deron isn't soft at all, he's easily the most physical player starting at the PG position. He's constantly posting up other PGs and he has the size and strength to effectively guard SGs. I would have hung up the second Boston mentioned Rondos name if I was the Nets.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA.... Losing an nba play off Game 7 on your home court to a Bulls team led by Nate Robinson ... that's the very definition of S-O-F-T

:roll: :roll:

:lol :lol

[The JKidd Kid]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA.... Losing an nba play off Game 7 on your home court to a Bulls team led by Nate Robinson ... that's the very definition of S-O-F-T

:roll: :roll:

:lol :lol

I didnt know that it was a single players fault that his team lost a game. Theres so many things wrong with this post. Honestly, the ignorance on this forum is sickening.

[hawksdogsbraves]

I didnt know that it was a single players fault that his team lost a game. Theres so many things wrong with this post. Honestly, the ignorance on this forum is sickening.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your excuse for the Nets losing to the Bulls' C-Team?

[KyrieTheFuture]

Deron Williams might be the most overrated player on this forum just because of you. Are you him? No one should be this defensive over someone they have never met

[wang4three]

Hmm.. what I saw was not an Xs and Os thing.. i saw a lack of street hunger in the nets.. if theres one thing Rajon never lacks, its street hunger.

Nets got bulled mentally and DW was a big problem with that

Actually, the Nets were destroyed by the high pick and rolls. I don't disagree that the Bulls had more heart and chemistry (which I think current Nets management underrates), but the inability of the Nets to guard the high pick and roll that led to the middle to be open for rolling big guys or open shooters on the wings continually destroyed us.

To this date, I don't understand how PJ didn't see it or make any adjustment to our pick and roll defense. Their offense was so predictable. Same play every single time.

[wang4three]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your excuse for the Nets losing to the Bulls' C-Team?

I know you're directing this to another poster, but all I saw was lack of adjustments. The Bulls were committed to one particular offense, running high pick and rolls with Nate and a big. Our lack to even address that or adjust our defense to stifle the pick and roll was absolutely pathetic. While the pick and roll is tough to guard, a high school team could've demonstrated a better understanding or attempt to guard it. I don't know how many times that lane was wide open in the middle for a rolling big, a cutter, or for Nate to get in to either finish or dish out to a shooter. It was pathetic.

[salwan]

the difference in mentality/mental toughness/drive/inner will between those two compensates for any aspect dwill is better at (shooting, scoring...)

[RR#9]

Deron Williams might be the most overrated player on this forum just because of you. Are you him? No one should be this defensive over someone they have never met

:oldlol:

[chazzy]

I already thought Rondo's offensive impact was overrated, now after an ACL tear..? Rondo-era Boston was good because of their elite defense, they struggled offensively. He steps up in the playoffs though. A PG not providing any spacing hurts

Deron's had some really bad stretches as a Net with all of his ankle issues, but he looked pretty damn good post ASG this year and most of his teams have had really good offenses.

[Dizzle-2k7]

the difference in mentality/mental toughness/drive/inner will between those two compensates for any aspect dwill is better at (shooting, scoring...)

this x10.. any coach/GM/teammate would agree :applause:

[The JKidd Kid]

Deron Williams might be the most overrated player on this forum just because of you. Are you him? No one should be this defensive over someone they have never met

The reason I defend him is because he's my favorite player in his prime and because there's guys like you that for some misguided reason believe that one dimensional players like Irving and overrated players like Rondo are better than a player that excels at every part of the game. I honestly don't understand how someone can think that Rondo and Irving, who both have GLARING flaws in their game are better than him.

[The JKidd Kid]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your excuse for the Nets losing to the Bulls' C-Team?

There were tons of reasons. They mostly trace back to bad coaching and lack of effort. The only players that actually gave thier all were Deron, Wallace and Blatche. Everyone else was incredibly passive, inconsistent and soft. Especially Lopez, who let Noah rape him and let everyone just walk into the paint. Also the fact that the coach insisted on playing Reggie and Gerald together, which made spacing terrible and allowed the Bulls to double Deron/ Lopez every time they touched the ball. Or the fact that our bench went 1 player deep. There's a lot of reasons they lost, but Deron and Wallace weren't one of those reasons, even though they get the most hate out of everyone on the team.

[Boston C's]

rondo could set guys up but deron no doubt can score the rock more...the nets will need him to do that because pierce and johnson arent getting any younger

[BlackWhiteGreen]

The reason I defend him is because he's my favorite player in his prime and because there's guys like you that for some misguided reason believe that one dimensional players like Irving and overrated players like Rondo are better than a player that excels at every part of the game. I honestly don't understand how someone can think that Rondo and Irving, who both have GLARING flaws in their game are better than him.

Rondo has one glaring flaw, which is 3 point range, and he's still hit big 3s in his career (Philly game 7 in 2012, Lakers game 7 in 2010). You're very much overrating his weaknesses to prop your own argument.

[The JKidd Kid]

Rondo has one glaring flaw, which is 3 point range, and he's still hit big 3s in his career (Philly game 7 in 2012, Lakers game 7 in 2010). You're very much overrating his weaknesses to prop your own argument.

He is also incredibly turnover prone and he can't shoot, which are the worst weaknesses to have, because they directly affect the teams ability to perform. At least if a player is a bad defender, they can be hid in a good defensive scheme based on team defense like Rose, there's nothin you can do to counteract bad shooting, it's always going to restrict a teams ability to perform, especially against a good defense that clogs the paint. Eg. Gerald Wallace in the Bulls series or Dwayne Wade in the Pacers series.

[Dizzle-2k7]

He is also incredibly turnover prone and he can't shoot, which are the worst weaknesses to have, because they directly affect the teams ability to perform. At least if a player is a bad defender, they can be hid in a good defensive scheme based on team defense like Rose, there's nothin you can do to counteract bad shooting.

since '08 rondo has averaged around 48% fg ... why do you keep saying he cant shoot? this isnt 2006 or 2007 anymore bro

if it was a problem, Rondo would NOT have 1 ring.. but yea.. he does have a ring

[Real Men Wear Green]

He is also incredibly turnover prone and he can't shoot, which are the worst weaknesses to have, because they directly affect the teams ability to perform. At least if a player is a bad defender, they can be hid in a good defensive scheme based on team defense like Rose, there's nothin you can do to counteract bad shooting.
11 assists to 4 turnovers is not a bad statistic. Your posts are inaccurate at best, we are talking about a player that would have led the NBA in APG two straight years if not for injury.

[RR#9]

11 assists to 4 turnovers is not a bad statistic. Your posts are inaccurate at best, we are talking about a player that would have led the NBA in APG two straight years if not for injury.

He did, I think. Had enough assists for it to count this year

[The JKidd Kid]

since '08 rondo has averaged around 48% fg ... why do you keep saying he cant shoot? this isnt 2006 or 2007 anymore bro

if it was a problem, Rondo would NOT have 1 ring.. but yea.. he does have a ring

Just please stop, you're embarrassing yourself. How about the fact that he shoots .27 from 3, or his true shooting percentage of 49% compared to Derons 59% after ankle treatment. Also, on that championship Celtics team ( one of my favorite teams of all time FYI) rondo was probably the 6th or 7th most impactful player and played a smaller role then Mario Chalmers did on this years heat team.

[The JKidd Kid]

11 assists to 4 turnovers is not a bad statistic. Your posts are inaccurate at best, we are talking about a player that would have led the NBA in APG two straight years if not for injury.

4 turnovers is AWFUL, no matter how many assists you have. There's never an excuse to have that many.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

He is also incredibly turnover prone and he can't shoot, which are the worst weaknesses to have, because they directly affect the teams ability to perform. At least if a player is a bad defender, they can be hid in a good defensive scheme based on team defense like Rose, there's nothin you can do to counteract bad shooting, it's always going to restrict a teams ability to perform, especially against a good defense that clogs the paint. Eg. Gerald Wallace in the Bulls series or Dwayne Wade in the Pacers series.

He can shoot, just not from 3 point range. He shot 12% better from midrange (16ft - 3pt line) than Deron last year.

[Dizzle-2k7]

He can shoot, just not from 3 point range. He shot 12% better from midrange 16ft - 3pt line) than Deron last year.

this. as if 3 pt shooting is make or break for legends. jordan shot shlt from 3 pt range.. guess that means ray allen >> mj?

[BlackWhiteGreen]

4 turnovers is AWFUL, no matter how many assists you have. There's never an excuse to have that many.

It was actually only 1 a game more than Deron's, and Rondo's career average is 3.0, compared to Deron's of 3.1 (including his time in Utah where he wasn't anywhere near as ball-dominant as Rondo is on the Celtics).

[Young X]

Rondo is an inefficient offensive player, why would Brooklyn want to get worse offensively?

[Real Men Wear Green]

4 turnovers is AWFUL, no matter how many assists you have. There's never an excuse to have that many.
You don't seem to know about "assist:turnover ratio" and why it's tracked for point guards. Or that in '11-12 Williams averaged more turnovers than the 3.89 Rondo had last year. With two less assists. Don't see you talking about how Williams has "no excuse."

[tpols]

Would do it if Rondo wasn't hurt..

Better defense, sense of urgency/competitiveness, playmaking, slashing.. Plus bk already has plenty of scorers.

[The JKidd Kid]

He can shoot, just not from 3 point range. He shot 12% better from midrange (16ft - 3pt line) than Deron last year.

First off, thats purely because defenders would sag off about 5 feet from him, (This is an undeniable fact), any PG can make a mid range shot when the other player sags off so much. Also, Derons season stats are tainted by his injury during the first half of the season, you have to use the second half of the season stats.

[tpols]

First off, thats purely because defenders would sag off about 5 feet from him, (This is an undeniable fact), any PG can make a mid range shot when the other player sags off so much. Also, Derons season stats are tainted by his injury during the first half of the season, you have to use the second half of the season stats.
Dwill has no heart though.. Rondo is like mini Isiah Thomas. I've seen plenty of both and Rondo goes harder when it counts and does all the little things

[The JKidd Kid]

You don't seem to know about "assist:turnover ratio" and why it's tracked for point guards. Or that in '11-12 Williams averaged more turnovers than the 3.89 Rondo had last year. With two less assists. Don't see you talking about how Williams has "no excuse."

He didnt have an excuse actually, he was on such a bad team, that he decided to play hero ball, thus lowering his FG% and raising his turnovers. I dont believe in using bad team mates as an excuse, its his fault that he tried to force passes and shots.

[bluechox2]

rondo worth more than dwill

[The JKidd Kid]

Dwill has no heart though.. Rondo is like mini Isiah Thomas. I've seen plenty of both and Rondo goes harder when it counts and does all the little things

The Williams having no heart thing is honestly ridiculous. You never heard about that sh*t until this season, when Joe Johnson and Lopez showed no heart. Williams, Reggie, Blatche and Wallace during the playoffs showed plenty of heart. Everyone else didnt do sh*t.

[Dizzle-2k7]

First off, thats purely because defenders would sag off about 5 feet from him, (This is an undeniable fact), any PG can make a mid range shot when the other player sags off so much. Also, Derons season stats are tainted by his injury during the first half of the season, you have to use the second half of the season stats.

why do they sag? cuz hes such an amazing playmaker and his quickness/speed is UNCONTAINABLE. maybe if dwill had rondo's playmaking and athleticism theyd sag off him too.. as it stands, they dont need to.

youre going in circles with your excuses. :confusedshrug:

[Real Men Wear Green]

He didnt have an excuse actually, he was on such a bad team, that he decided to play hero ball, thus lowering his FG% and raising his turnovers. I dont believe in using bad team mates as an excuse, its his fault that he tried to force passes and shots.
And ths while saying he has "no excuse," you make the excuse. Moving on...

[BlackWhiteGreen]

First off, thats purely because defenders would sag off about 5 feet from him, (This is an undeniable fact), any PG can make a mid range shot when the other player sags off so much. Also, Derons season stats are tainted by his injury during the first half of the season, you have to use the second half of the season stats.

So what you're saying is Rondo shouldn't take these wide open shots, but take the more contested ones like Deron? Right...

Oh right, well I'm glad we can skew statistics to swing arguments. Did you know Rondo averages 44ppg in games against Miami in game 2s in 2012 (This is an undeniable fact)

[The JKidd Kid]

And ths while saying he has "no excuse," you make the excuse. Moving on...

I didnt make an excuse, I actually gave him the blame for his turnovers.

[tpols]

The Williams having no heart thing is honestly ridiculous. You never heard about that sh*t until this season, when Joe Johnson and Lopez showed no heart. Williams, Reggie, Blatche and Wallace during the playoffs showed plenty of heart. Everyone else didnt do sh*t.
Or I've been following dwill and his play since he was on the Jazz. .. He's no Chris paul or Rondo when it comes to wanting to win.

When a team is stacked with scorers I want my pg to do everything else at a high level. And especially have good leadership and fire. Rondo still could drop 40 on you like he did against Miami in 2012 if he really needs to. His game elevates under pressure.. I'll take that over dwill.

[The JKidd Kid]

So what you're saying is Rondo shouldn't take these wide open shots, but take the more contested ones like Deron? Right...

Oh right, well I'm glad we can skew statistics to swing arguments. Did you know Rondo averages 44ppg in games against Miami in game 2s in 2012 (This is an undeniable fact)

No, thats not what Im saying. Im saying that the easiness of jump shots that he takes is much greater than every other All-Star caliber PG in the league.

But if we're going to twist around each others words, then I guess what youre saying is that Rondo only played well in 1 game in his life. (See how ridiculous this whole part of the conversation is).

[The JKidd Kid]

Or I've been following dwill and his play since he was on the Jazz. .. He's no Chris paul or Rondo when it comes to wanting to win.

When a team is stacked with scorers I want my pg to do everything else at a high level. And especially have good leadership and fire. Rondo still could drop 40 on you like he did against Miami in 2012 if he really needs to. His game elevates under pressure.. I'll take that over dwill.

Just compare their playoff stats and that will kill your argument.

[wang4three]

While I think Nets management severely underrates intangible qualities such as chemistry, I think heart is severely overrated by this board.

I don't know if it's cause of the over-saturation of drama into sports or cause of guys like Skip Bayless who make things like heart or desire the focal point of their arguments, but really this is not enough of an argument over why someone is better than another.

I really get tired of people saying we didn't win against the Bulls cause we didn't "want" it enough. Or that our players lacked "heart." We lost because we didn't make adjustments and the Bulls did. You could see it clearly. When it comes to professional level matches, whether it be games, wars, or whatever, failed execution or poor strategy is usually the root cause of loss. Not cause of shit like heart. I don't care if you have a team of full of guys that have the heart of Rudy Ruettiger, if you have poor strategy, you're going to lose. We had poor strategy.

We never adjusted to defending the high pick and roll, we never made the adjustment to double Nate when he was hot, we never sent more guys to crash the boards when Noah and Boozer were dominating the offensive glass, we just stuck with the same plan throughout. Meanwhile, the Bulls after losing badly in the first game, made the adjustment to exploit our poor pick and roll defense, exploit Brook's inability to show or flash on D, put Hinrich on Deron instead of Nate, etc. They made adjustments, we didn't. We loss.

[tpols]

Just compare their playoff stats and that will kill your argument.
In Rondo first year in the playoffs as the first option/most important player he averaged

17/12 + 2.5 SPG and elite defense. He was the second best player in a series that featured Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, KG, Paul Pierce etc.

Dwill with the nets has been 20/8 and 1 SPG mediocre defense. The only thing he does better than Rondo is shoot. That is it. Every other category goes to Rondo.

Rondo is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter and he rebounds the ball twice as good. Rondo highest rpg average was 9.7. Dwill was 4.3 Rondo routinely doubles dwill in rebounds.. In the playoffs.

Should show you who gets after it more

[Dizzle-2k7]

In Rondo first year in the playoffs as the first option/most important player he averaged

17/12 + 2.5 SPG and elite defense. He was the second best player in a series that featured Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, KG, Paul Pierce etc.

Dwill with the nets has been 20/8 and 1 SPG mediocre defense. The only thing he does better than Rondo is shoot. That is it. Every other category goes to Rondo.

Rondo is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter and he rebounds the ball twice as good. Rondo highest rpg average was 9.7. Dwill was 4.3 Rondo routinely doubles dwill in rebounds.. In the playoffs.

Should show you who gets after it more


:applause:

[tpols]

While I think Nets management severely underrates intangible qualities such as chemistry, I think heart is severely overrated by this board.

I don't know if it's cause of the over-saturation of drama into sports or cause of guys like Skip Bayless who make things like heart or desire the focal point of their arguments, but really this is not enough of an argument over why someone is better than another.

I really get tired of people saying we didn't win against the Bulls cause we didn't "want" it enough. Or that our players lacked "heart." We lost because we didn't make adjustments and the Bulls did. You could see it clearly. When it comes to professional level matches, whether it be games, wars, or whatever, failed execution or poor strategy is usually the root cause of loss. Not cause of shit like heart. I don't care if you have a team of full of guys that have the heart of Rudy Ruettiger, if you have poor strategy, you're going to lose. We had poor strategy.

We never adjusted to defending the high pick and roll, we never made the adjustment to double Nate when he was hot, we never sent more guys to crash the boards when Noah and Boozer were dominating the offensive glass, we just stuck with the same plan throughout. Meanwhile, the Bulls after losing badly in the first game, made the adjustment to exploit our poor pick and roll defense, exploit Brook's inability to show or flash on D, put Hinrich on Deron instead of Nate, etc. They made adjustments, we didn't. We loss.
Well wouldn't Rondo have helped with that rebounding problem? Hes great at sneaking into the paint and snagging rebounds. Very pesky too lurking around for steal and strips on bigs.

Same with defending the pick and roll.. Rondo would've helped with that problem a ton

You'll lose shooting and some scoring.. But I would bet on a big game from Rondo over dwill. And this year there's even more scoring on the team making it that much more dispensible

[wang4three]

Well wouldn't Rondo have helped with that rebounding problem? Hes great at sneaking into the paint and snagging rebounds. Very pesky too lurking around for steal and strips on bigs.

Same with defending the pick and roll.. Rondo would've helped with that problem a ton

You'll lose shooting and some scoring.. But I would bet on a big game from Rondo over dwill. And this year there's even more scoring on the team making it that much more dispensible

Rondo would help with rebounds, but Rondo's primary rebounding skills are snagging the longer rebounds off of long 2s or 3 point shots. We were losing 2nd chance points to the Bulls consistently.

Also on the pick and roll, while Rondo is the better defender, it wasn't because Deron couldn't fight through the screen, it was because Brook or any other of our bigs not named Reggie Evans wasn't flashing or rolling back with the big. So often time we find that the big would have an open lane through the middle or the help defense wouldn't show and there'd be a cutter going baseline. It was just an awful display of defensive mechanics from our bigs not named Reggie Evans.

I do not think Rondo himself would be able to overcome those holes in our defensive strategy.

[The JKidd Kid]

In Rondo first year in the playoffs as the first option/most important player he averaged

17/12 + 2.5 SPG and elite defense. He was the second best player in a series that featured Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, KG, Paul Pierce etc.

Dwill with the nets has been 20/8 and 1 SPG mediocre defense. The only thing he does better than Rondo is shoot. That is it. Every other category goes to Rondo.

Rondo is 3 inches shorter and 30+lbs lighter and he rebounds the ball twice as good. Rondo highest rpg average was 9.7. Dwill was 3.8. Rondo routinely doubles dwill in rebounds.. In the playoffs.

Should show you who gets after it more

Again, rebounds arnt important at the PG position youre just grasping at straws. Also, Rondo has been Bostons most important players for a couple of years now. Also, steals are not defense, theyre probably the most two faced stat in the game. Players that get a lot of steals are usually those that gamble the most and the reason its called a gamble is because most of the time you dont win. This means that every time a player gambles and gets a steal, theres many times that he gambled and didnt get the steal and in the process gave up his defensive position. Theres a reason that every coach youve ever had told you not to reach. If we used steals as our only indication of defense, guys like Monta Ellis would be considered good defenders. People using steals as evidence of defense is one of my few pet peeves.

Also, you cant use stats without providing back up information about each individuals situation. Deron in this years playoffs played against the best defensive team in the league, with REGGIE EVANS, GERALD WALLACE and JOE JOHNSON on the floor most of the time. Reggie and Wallace caused horrible spacing issues and allowed the Bulls to double team Deron. Joe Johnson never takes the open shots Deron gives him, he prefers to go into isolation plays instead of a wide open 3, add to the fact that he was struggling with worsening plantar fasciitus, which severely impacted his shot (see game 6). On top of all this, the Nets retarded coach decided to implement a horrible isolation based offense with almost no off ball movement. Despite all of these things against him, Deron still managed to put up all-star numbers even with his only realistic passing option being drive and dish to Brook Lopez.

Actual Career Playoff Statistics:

Rondo Playoff Averages (Minus 06-07 season where he had a limited role):
16 PPG
.448 FG%
.281 3PT %
10.1 APG
6.8 RPG

Deron Playoff Averages:
21.1 PPG
.454 FG%
.401 3PT%
9.4 APG
3.6 RPG

Career numbers (when edited like in Rondos first year) are better, because they provide evidence of a players level of performance in a wide variety of situations.

[tpols]

Again, rebounds arnt important at the PG .
*looks at username*

Your hero would disagree very strongly

[The JKidd Kid]

Well wouldn't Rondo have helped with that rebounding problem? Hes great at sneaking into the paint and snagging rebounds. Very pesky too lurking around for steal and strips on bigs.

Same with defending the pick and roll.. Rondo would've helped with that problem a ton

You'll lose shooting and some scoring.. But I would bet on a big game from Rondo over dwill. And this year there's even more scoring on the team making it that much more dispensible

I would pick Deron defending the pick and roll ten times out of ten over Rondo. The key to defending the pick and roll at the guard position is effectively fighting through screens, which Deron is better because of the 20 pounds of muscle he has over Rondo.

Also, Deron is still better for this current team, because he is a GREAT distributor (shown by his 9 assists with Humphries as his first option in '11-'12) and his shooting allows him to play off the ball, thus allowing better spacing for post ups and overall offensive versatility. I doubt that Rondos slight advantage in passing would make up for those things, along with Derons superior ball security.

The problem with rebounding wouldnt have been helped by Rondo because our front court was dominated by the bigger and stronger Boozer and Noah and a 5'11 PG isnt going to effect that no matter how good at rebounding he is.

[The JKidd Kid]

*looks at username*

Your hero would disagree very strongly

He would probably say that its a factor, but much less important than the other jobs of a PG.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Actual Career Playoff Statistics:

Rondo Playoff Averages (Minus 06-07 season where he had a limited role):
16 PPG
.448 FG%
.281 3PT %
10.1 APG
6.8 RPG

Deron Playoff Averages:
21.1 PPG
.454 FG%
.401 3PT%
9.4 APG
3.6 RPG

Career numbers (when edited like in Rondos first year) are better, because they provide evidence of a players level of performance in a wide variety of situations.

Let's ignore the turnovers which are a crucial part of your argument, then...

Deron: 3.5
Rondo (discounting 08): 3.3

No excuses!

You began this thread by calling Deron 10x the player Rondo is, and for that idiocy alone I can't take you seriously.

[tpols]

I would pick Deron defending the pick and roll ten times out of ten over Rondo. The key to defending the pick and roll at the guard position is effectively fighting through screens, which Deron is better because of the 20 pounds of muscle he has over Rondo.

And your team would get burned far more often. Rondo is smaller, quicker and harder to place a hit on for a screener. He recovers much better, has a longer wingspan and quicker reflexes allowing him to cover and block off more space, while retaining the flexibility to fit through congested areas.




Also, Deron is still better for this current team, because he is a GREAT distributor (shown by his 9 assists with Humphries as his first option in '11-'12) and his shooting allows him to play off the ball, thus allowing better spacing for post ups and overall offensive versatility. I doubt that Rondos slight advantage in passing would make up for those things, along with Derons superior ball security.

Rondo is an even better distributor because he's a better passer, and slasher, and is more prone to setting someone up rather than shooting himself than dwill is. He averages more assists and flat out facilitates more. Derons been on that iso drive and dish shit forever. Rondo is far more creative on offense.

Also the space teams give Rondo allows him much more movement around the perimeter and sinks the defense inwards giving him more passing lanes especially to his shooters.




The problem with rebounding wouldnt have been helped by Rondo because our front court was dominated by the bigger and stronger Boozer and Noah and a 5'11 PG isnt going to effect that no matter how good at rebounding he is.
It would've helped somewhat. Rondo averages double the rebounds and has shown that the ability to step up his rebounding game when they really needed it averaging 10 in a playoff run before. Not saying he could keep that up but he is relentless chasing and tracking down the ball.


You have still yet to provide anything he does better other than shoot.You can lose or win a basketball game on a bunch of different fronts. Rondo covers more holes especially on a team whose best support are one dimensional scorers.. JJ and Brook

[The JKidd Kid]

Let's ignore the turnovers which are a crucial part of your argument, then...

Deron: 3.5
Rondo (discounting 08): 3.3

No excuses!

You began this thread by calling Deron 10x the player Rondo is, and for that idiocy alone I can't take you seriously.

Again, the insults are unnecessary I dont understand why people cant just have a conversation like adults. I was obviously exaggerating when I said 10x the player, and using that as your only opinion of me is just immature.

And yes, Deron averages more turnovers than Rondo in the playoffs, but the difference is very small and that can be credited to him playing in the INCREDIBLY competetive late 2000s west (In which 2008's Warriors who missed they playoffs, wouldve been a 5th seed in the east this season.) And his only playoff appearance in the East was against the defensive powerhouse Bulls, in which he was already put at a disadvantage due to other factors I explained in one of my previous posts. You have to agree that quality of opponent is an excuse, but only in THE PLAYOFFS, as you are forced to play the same team multiple times.

[tpols]

Incredibly competitive West?

Rondo faced the same exact laker teams that bounce dwill out. In addition to..

60+ win top ranked Cavs defenses
Top ranked Miami defenses

You're making up bs excuses now

[teddytwelvetoes]

You must not watch basketball... Deron > RondoWho started for a championship team? Even when Rondo was "the man" he almost carried Boston to the finals. Averaged 17/10/10 in a different playoff run as well. Dropping 20/20/20 games n shit out here while Deron's waves glisten in the sunlight on some random golf course somewhere. And Rondo makes significantly less money and has as many/if not more ASG appearances if you care about that type of thing as well.

[KyrieTheFuture]

The reason I defend him is because he's my favorite player in his prime and because there's guys like you that for some misguided reason believe that one dimensional players like Irving and overrated players like Rondo are better than a player that excels at every part of the game. I honestly don't understand how someone can think that Rondo and Irving, who both have GLARING flaws in their game are better than him.


I don't think Irving is better than Deron I think he is miles ahead of a second year Deron and will very soon (possibly this year) be better than Deron. Rondo is absolutely better than Deron Williams and there is absolutely nothing that points to the opposite being true. Can Deron shoot better? Yes. Can he do anything else better? Perhaps run the offense slightly more efficiently but Rondo can do things he can't. Like play defense, rebound, win playoff games.

[The JKidd Kid]

And your team would get burned far more often. Rondo is smaller, quicker and harder to place a hit on for a screener. He recovers much better, has a longer wingspan and quicker reflexes allowing him to cover and block off more space, while retaining the flexibility to fit through congested areas.




Rondo is an even better distributor because he's a better passer, and slasher, and is more prone to setting someone up rather than shooting himself than dwill is. He averages more assists and flat out facilitates more. Derons been on that iso drive and dish shit forever. Rondo is far more creative on offense.

Also the space teams give Rondo allows him much more movement around the perimeter and sinks the defense inwards giving him more passing lanes especially to his shooters.



It would've helped somewhat. Rondo averages double the rebounds and has shown that the ability to step up his rebounding game when they really needed it averaging 10 in a playoff run before. Not saying he could keep that up but he is relentless chasing and tracking down the ball.


You have still yet to provide anything he does better other than shoot.You can lose or win a basketball game on a bunch of different fronts. Rondo covers more holes especially on a team whose best support are one dimensional scorers.. JJ and Brook

1. Deron is very quick also (Only reason people said he was slow was because he was injured.) And strength is more important in pick and roll defense, because weaker PGs get easily caught on picks and unless theyre cheetahs or something, theyre not going to recover especially against Nate Robinson who is a very unique player. However, you presented valid points and so did I, so I am willing to call this one a draw.

2. First off, Deron wasnt a drive and kick player before this season, he was allways a pick and roll distributor. And second, Deron FACILLITATES more than Rondo, as Deron is a very willing passer and off ball player, Rondo is much more reluctant to play off the ball. Yes Rondo averages more assists, but Deron is much more willing to FACILLITATE and take a back seat. Do you get what I'm saying? Im not sure if I explained it well.

3. I agree he couldve helped, but like you said, our guards werent the problem, it was our soft (Lopez) or undersized (Reggie/ Humphries) bigs. (I was very impressed by Blatches overall performance and effort during the series, he was arguably the second best player on the team after Deron).

4. Things that Deron is better at:
Shooting: Incredibly important, but already discussed.
Defense: This is the most interesting thing I discovered actually, because I wouldve thought it was the other way around. Even though Rondos team was better defensively, opposing PGs guarded by Rondo had a 15.8 PER, while those guarded by Deron after his ankle treatment averaged 12.6 PER. Both are very good considering the quality of PGs today, however, Deron is better. (I already told you how I feel about steals, please dont mention it.)
Ball Handling and Security: After Derons treatment, he averaged 2.4 TOs compared to Rondos 3.9.
Athletecism: (Rondo has speed advantage) Deron has had many more highlight dunks than Rondo has. Deron is also much stronger about 20 pounds stronger.)
Size: Derons overall height and strength allows him to effectively play and defend the 2 guard position, which helps the teams versatility incredibly.
Decision Making: See Ball Handling
Finishing Ability: Derons overall athetecism, strength and size all make him a better finisher than Rondo.

There you go. Rondo has the advantage in speed, passing and rebounding, but Deron is still the better overall player. Also, I especially want to know what people think about defense, because before I looked into it, I honestly thought that Rondo was the superior defender.

[The JKidd Kid]

I don't think Irving is better than Deron I think he is miles ahead of a second year Deron and will very soon (possibly this year) be better than Deron. Rondo is absolutely better than Deron Williams and there is absolutely nothing that points to the opposite being true. Can Deron shoot better? Yes. Can he do anything else better? Perhaps run the offense slightly more efficiently but Rondo can do things he can't. Like play defense, rebound, win playoff games.

Derons very capable of winning playoff games and the reason the Nets lost in the Bulls series was coaching/ lack of production from bench/ soft bigs, Deron was the only thing keeping them in the series. Also, in response to the second half of your post look at my reply to tpols.

Derons 2nd year: 16.2 and 9.5
Kyrie: 22.5 and 5.9

Its very close, but this is a discussion for another thread. :oldlol:

[yobore]

Wow Deron is a better defender than Rondo huh?? Even if you think Rondo's D is overrated, Deron has been the worst PG defender for years. One huge problem with those Jazz teams was the utter lack of help defense. Deron isn't a terrible man to man defender but his defensive IQ is one of the lowest I've seen. Watch a game with Deron trying to be locked in on D he would stay on a PG who can't even shoot and doesn't have the ball 24 feet from the basket. This let everyone play 4 on 4 and torch the Jazz. Also defensive PER isn't what you think it is, they make no effort to say what position you are actually guarding, they say: Deron is more of a PG than CJ Miles, so his minutes will be at the PG position if they are both on the floor.

Deron's synergy stats and on/off plus minus have always shown him to be one of the worst defenders in the league, and it's not like he slowed down other players in any of his playoff series. This is just a case of "he's a big guy, he must be a good defender"

[The JKidd Kid]

Wow Deron is a better defender than Rondo huh?? Even if you think Rondo's D is overrated, Deron has been the worst PG defender for years. One huge problem with those Jazz teams was the utter lack of help defense. Deron isn't a terrible man to man defender but his defensive IQ is one of the lowest I've seen. Watch a game with Deron trying to be locked in on D he would stay on a PG who can't even shoot and doesn't have the ball 24 feet from the basket. This let everyone play 4 on 4 and torch the Jazz. Also defensive PER isn't what you think it is, they make no effort to say what position you are actually guarding, they say: Deron is more of a PG than CJ Miles, so his minutes will be at the PG position if they are both on the floor.

Deron's synergy stats and on/off plus minus have always shown him to be one of the worst defenders in the league, and it's not like he slowed down other players in any of his playoff series. This is just a case of "he's a big guy, he must be a good defender"

Its not defensive PER its actually PER of opponents BY POSITION. Opposing PGs against Deron- 12.6 Opposing SGs against Deron- 16.7. Opposing player PER is a very good indicator of individual defense, especially when said player is playing on a team that is overall poor defensively like Williams and the Nets. If players that an individual is guarding is playing poorly, but the team as a whole is playing well, thats a testament to that individual players defensive capabilities. Its much better than +/-, because +/- is subject to other factors, such as quality of back up players, other players defensive ability, opponents rotations, elite 6th men etc.

[tpols]

Look man you're being silly.. You're not going to convince people who have watched literally hundreds of games of both players that one is a better defender when he clearly is far worse.

Especially based on one cherry picked stat

[The JKidd Kid]

Look man you're being silly.. You're not going to convince people who have watched literally hundreds of games of both players that one is a better defender when he clearly is far worse.

Especially based on one cherry picked stat

I dont understand how hes clearly worse, he never seemed like a bad defender to me. And its not a cherry picked stat, its the only stat that can represent defense that doesnt have other extreme factors. Opposing players PER doesnt have any strong outside factors, other than overall team defense and the Nets are a worse defensive team than the Celtics.

If Derons clearly worse, then answer this question: Why is it that players guarded by Deron posted a worse PER than those guarded by Rondo, even though Deron is playing on a worse defensive team?