Was Jordan's Finals Competition Overrated?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.

[kamil]

Mar 2010 :facepalm

[SpecialQue]

Beating off in underwear drawers :facepalm

[Young X]

Lebron James has shot under 50% in 17/22 finals games.

:oldlol:

[StocktonFan]

No but the heats was
Spurs - old and slow
OKC - low IQ (westbrook)

[Bandito]

Well is not like I can dispute Op's informative facts. Oh wait I can...

OKC young, not yet in prime and unproven. Nothing in the middle that has high IQ
Spurs old and past prime

I win with my irrefutable "facts"...

[lakeshow1]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.

:oldlol:

I think you meant to put this part in your next agenda driven thread. You know, the one about how Jordan is overrated and shouldn't have the MVPs he has.

[KG215]

Beating off in underwear drawers :facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

Well is not like I can dispute Op's informative facts. Oh wait I can...

OKC young, not yet in prime and unproven. Nothing in the middle that has high IQ
Spurs old and past prime

I win with my irrefutable "facts"...

OKC was proven. They were in the WCF the year before.

[sportjames23]

Is OP a fakkit?

[Bandito]

OKC was proven. They were in the WCF the year before.
Because the Spurs were old, injured and past their prime.

[TonyMontana]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Because the Spurs were old, injured and past their prime.

The same Spurs people were calling a historically good team during the postseason and had won 12 games in a row? :oldlol: Btw, im not sure have posted in a thread that you didn't post in right afterwards :oldlol:

[Bandito]

The same Spurs people were calling a historically good team during the postseason and had won 12 games in a row? :oldlol: Btw, im not sure have posted in a thread that you didn't post in right afterwards :oldlol:
It is a coincidence is not like there are a lot of threads to choose from:confusedshrug:

But to answer the question they are a good team in the postseason but let's not act like they are young, uninjured the last 2 years and in their prime. This year was the first time in years they were somewhat healthy (I am mostly talking about Gino btw).

[RIP CITY]

Reading the opinions on this board is so sad sometimes. This board proves that abortions should remain legal.

[poido123]

The two assclowns Silktheshocker and TonyMontana in the same thread :oldlol:

You guys have no shame.

[diamenz]

stans are just making me dislike lebron more and more.

[kamil]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

You need to get your dick wet.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Tony said it perfectly :applause:

[guy]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

You clearly didnt watch back then and don't know shit.

[guy]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.


Ummm the Spurs were older and past their prime and had nobody better then either Payton or Kemp, who is clearly much better then Blake Griffin.

And the thunder were a low IQ team with nothing in the middle as well.

You obviously don't know much about this topic or you're trolling because you can pick apart basically any team just like this.

[andgar923]

Bron would've never even made it to the Finals and I'd be surprised if he made it past the first round in some instances as well.

FACT

[sc19]

This is why everybody call the 90s a weak era. Jordan couldn't win shit in the superior 80s. :facepalm

[andgar923]

This is why everybody call the 90s a weak era. Jordan couldn't win shit in the superior 80s. :facepalm


It wasn't due to HIS play.

His teammates had to grow, he was doing his part and then some.

[KOBE143]

Agree his competition was weak

Kobe would win at least 10 titles in that 90s Bulls team at worst..

Kobe >>> LeBron

[sportjames23]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.


Fakkit #2 checking in, I see.

[sportjames23]

This is why everybody call the 90s a weak era. Jordan couldn't win shit in the superior 80s. :facepalm


Damn, fakkits everywhere on ISH these days. :facepalm

[WayOfWade]

I think the Heat and the Bulls both played great teams in the finals, and I'm going to leave it at that.

[deja vu]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.
Will neg for stupidity.

All these teams >>> 2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs

[deja vu]

Shawn no better than Blake Griffin.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.
http://i.imgur.com/utmkRwl.jpg

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.
http://i.imgur.com/7Qmhlki.jpg

[tazb]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan ddnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

Agreed with all of this, especially the bolded part. :applause:

[deja vu]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

2 MVP caliber players? LMAO. I didn't realize that Pippen and Rodman were MVP caliber players. :roll:


The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.
Magic beat them because they lost Horace Grant, and MJ returned late in the season. The Bulls SWEPT them the very next season when they replaced Grant with another defensive big man. :bowdown:


Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.
LOL sounds like the current Miami Heat. :roll:


LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.
Yeah because Jordan was not a Defensive Player of the Year. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[GrapeApe]

This topic is pretty irrelevant. You can't control who you play. All you can do is beat the team you're facing and Jordan's Bulls were 6/6 in that department.

[plowking]

Bron would've never even made it to the Finals and I'd be surprised if he made it past the first round in some instances as well.

FACT

Interesting seeing as Lebron has never lost in the first round.

[Zedja]

Interesting seeing as Lebron has never lost in the first round.
Yknow whats interesting? 6/6 in the Finals. What's Lebron's record?

[Dengness9]

Tony and Sillk insecure homo's.

The hate you f a gs receive is awesome.

Bball newbies.

[Magic 32]

Interesting seeing as Lebron has never lost in the first round.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/wizthree420.jpg

[andgar923]

Interesting seeing as Lebron has never lost in the first round.

He never faced some of the teams that MJ faced either.

[Rose'sACL]

stans are just making me dislike lebron more and more.
by that logic everyone should hate Jordan. i like Jordan and think of him as the GOAT even though most of his fans are probably the worst as most of them didn't even watch him. Most lebron fans have at least watched him sometime.

He never faced some of the teams that MJ faced either.
That also means MJ was even worse as he couldn't get his team to better seeding.
Aren't you 60 and have watched every game since 1970s? why are you debating with us 6 yr olds?

[TonyMontana]

2 MVP caliber players? LMAO. I didn't realize that Pippen and Rodman were MVP caliber players. :roll:


Magic beat them because they lost Horace Grant, and MJ returned late in the season. The Bulls SWEPT them the very next season when they replaced Grant with another defensive big man. :bowdown:


LOL sounds like the current Miami Heat. :roll:


Yeah because Jordan was not a Defensive Player of the Year. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The Bulls went 55-27 in 1994 when Jordan retired for the first time. They were 57-25 the year before with Jordan. The team only loss 2 less games when they replaced Jordan with a CBA player. :oldlol:

Pippen played 72 games that year. The team went 51-21 with him and 4-6 without him. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year and may have won it if he didn't miss 10 games.

Pippen was an MVP caliber player. When you see that Jordan also had Phil Jackson, the GOAT head coach and either Dennis Rodman(by far the best rebounder in the history of the NBA and a guy that could defend anyone from Magic to Shaq) or dominant defensive big Horace Grant you see no other star had the consistently dominant cast Jordan had. They won ****ing 55 games replacing him with a CBA player and were a bad call away from a probable Finals berth. :oldlol: 3 Bulls made the allstar team that year, all having career years without Jordan.

Without All NBA 1st Team bigman Horace Grant Jordan was exposed vs the Magic. Can you imagine if Jordan had to carry a team whose weakness is their interior to the Finals? let alone championships the way LeBron has.

LeBron has won MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS without a dominant rim protector/rebounder on his team. LeBron has to go down low in the playoffs to keep his team competitive.

Could Jordan do that?

Nope hes too small. We saw him put every ****ing inch of Shaqs dick in his mouth in 1995. The Bulls had to wait til they got the best rebounder in NBA History combined with Horace Grant(ORLs best post defender/rebounder) missing the entire series to beat them. :oldlol:

Chicago nearly doubled Orlandos rebounding in 1996, thats why they won. Dennis Rodman, not Jordan.

When Jordan won his rings his only priority was to score. Pippen was the teams facilitator, Pippen was the guy who would exert his energy playing the other teams top perimeter threat. Rodman/Grant was the one who'd have to take the other teams top post player, Rodman/Grant was the one who had to take the rebounding burden.

LeBron has to do ALL of that for his Heat to win. All at an elite level. Time for you to take Jordans dick out of your mouth and open your eyes.

[TonyMontana]

Yknow whats interesting? 6/6 in the Finals. What's Lebron's record?

Jordan: 1-9 playoff record without Pippen

:roll:

[longtime lurker]

Right now this has got to be one of the weakest eras for the NBA.

[plowking]

He never faced some of the teams that MJ faced either.

I don't get your argument.

You're saying he'd lose in the first round, then you're saying he never faced good enough teams to lose in the first round... Now you're saying he should lose in the regular season to play harder teams in the first round?

Jordan was making the playoffs with 38 wins... Shit, they made it with 30 wins in his second year.


Yknow whats interesting? 6/6 in the Finals. What's Lebron's record?

What has this got to do with my comment? You have a computer, use google to find Lebron's record if you wish.

[Magic 32]

Can't believe Lebron stans think they can get away with this.

lol

Consistently beating .500 teams in the first round is better than not choking in the finals?

:hammerhead:

[Young X]

When Jordan won his rings his only priority was to score. Pippen was the teams facilitator, Pippen was the guy who would exert his energy playing the other teams top perimeter threat. Rodman/Grant was the one who'd have to take the other teams top post player, Rodman/Grant was the one who had to take the rebounding burden.
^Myth.

Jordan led his team in:

Scoring
Assists
#2 in Rebounding (0.5 less than Rodman)
Steals
Blocks

...in the '97 playoffs.

When will you faqqots learn? :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

Could Jordan do that?

Nope hes too small. We saw him put every ****ing inch of Shaqs dick in his mouth in 1995. The Bulls had to wait til they got the best rebounder in NBA History combined with Horace Grant(ORLs best post defender/rebounder) missing the entire series to beat them.

Yeah, we all saw what Roy Hibbert did to the Heat. A career 11 and 7 guy looked like Hakeem against Miami. Now imagine what Shaq does to that team. We're talking Wilt numbers. Not a thing Lebron could do about that. He's not guarding legit centers.

[poido123]

by that logic everyone should hate Jordan. i like Jordan and think of him as the GOAT even though most of his fans are probably the worst as most of them didn't even watch him. Most lebron fans have at least watched him sometime.

That also means MJ was even worse as he couldn't get his team to better seeding.
Aren't you 60 and have watched every game since 1970s? why are you debating with us 6 yr olds?


Well I have, so has Andgar and so has just about anyone who defend Jordan from random stupid comments thrown by mainly Lebron stans who have been fans of the game for a total of 3 years :oldlol:

You can spin it any way you want, but the stupid one's are the Lebron fans. They DEFINATELY didnt watch Jordan's career, therefore have little credibility when they like to compare their hero to Jordan.

Apart from Andgar who is a big Jordan fan, there really isn't many Jordan stans that claim anything outlandish or what I'd consider to be a troll attempt. Lebron stans on the other hand...

Don't pretend to be on the fence, you're a Heat fan. That comment where you said; "That also means MJ was even worse as he couldn't get his team to better seeding." shows that you clearly have an agenda.

[bdreason]

You can only beat who they put in front of you.

[plowking]

Can't believe Lebron stans think they can get away with this.

lol

Consistently beating .500 teams in the first round is better than not choking in the finals?

:hammerhead:

The Heat were favorites twice in their three finals trips, and they won 2 titles. Seems like logical progression to me, no?

[Soundwave]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

It's going to be soooooooooooo funny watching Kobe-stans bend over LeBron stans next summer when the Heat fail to threepeat. It's going to be vicious.

[Soundwave]

^Myth.

Jordan led his team in:

Scoring
Assists
#2 in Rebounding (0.5 less than Rodman)
Steals
Blocks

...in the '97 playoffs.

When will you faqqots learn? :oldlol:

:oldlol:

[Rose'sACL]

Well I have, so has Andgar and so has just about anyone who defend Jordan from random stupid comments thrown by mainly Lebron stans who have been fans of the game for a total of 3 years :oldlol:

You can spin it any way you want, but the stupid one's are the Lebron fans. They DEFINATELY didnt watch Jordan's career, therefore have little credibility when they like to compare their hero to Jordan.

Apart from Andgar who is a big Jordan fan, there really isn't many Jordan stans that claim anything outlandish or what I'd consider to be a troll attempt. Lebron stans on the other hand...

Don't pretend to be on the fence, you're a Heat fan. That comment where you said; "That also means MJ was even worse as he couldn't get his team to better seeding." shows that you clearly have an agenda.
how can you say that when you are a jordan fan ?
I can call you a bandwagon fan too given that you clearly follow a team for which the most succesful(in the eyes of most) player played so you can throw that in the face of anyone who calls "your" team bad.

[andgar923]

I don't get your argument.

You're saying he'd lose in the first round, then you're saying he never faced good enough teams to lose in the first round... Now you're saying he should lose in the regular season to play harder teams in the first round?

Jordan was making the playoffs with 38 wins... Shit, they made it with 30 wins in his second year.


No.

What I'm saying is simple.

Bron wouldn't have beat the caliber teams that MJ faced. He never faced the Celtics, the Cavs, the Knicks, shit.. even the 80s Pacers were better than some of the teams Bron's faced.

But aside from that

[Rose'sACL]

Anyone who has been a heat fan since 2010 has my respect. I hate the ones who bandwagoned after last year's finals win but anyone who has been a heat Fan since 2010 till now has more balls than any celtics, lakers or bulls fan.
I still don't like LeBron off the court but i like him as a player. he is not even my favorite player to watch unless he gets into that passing mode. I can't wait when leBron gets old and may be decides to pass more without the media hating him as much they hate him now if decides to pass more.

[andgar923]

Anyone who has been a heat fan since 2010 has my respect. I hate the ones who bandwagoned after last year's finals win but anyone who has been a heat Fan since 2010 till now has more balls than any celtics, lakers or bulls fan.
I still don't like LeBron off the court but i like him as a player. he is not even my favorite player to watch unless he gets into that passing mode. I can't wait when leBron gets old and may be decides to pass more without the media hating him as much they hate him now if decides to pass more.

Been a Heat fan since I first saw Wade play in his 2nd season.

Wade's been my fav player up until he began p*ssing me off with his lack of progression and his lackadaisical play.

[poido123]

Anyone who has been a heat fan since 2010 has my respect. I hate the ones who bandwagoned after last year's finals win but anyone who has been a heat Fan since 2010 till now has more balls than any celtics, lakers or bulls fan.
I still don't like LeBron off the court but i like him as a player. he is not even my favorite player to watch unless he gets into that passing mode. I can't wait when leBron gets old and may be decides to pass more without the media hating him as much they hate him now if decides to pass more.


Wow, I think this is a Silk and Montana comment rolled into one :roll:

Stop passing yourself off with this impartial guy act, I see through it and its bullshit.

Im still cracking up about the "anyone has my respect if your a heat fan since 2010" comment :roll:

Stop embarassing yourself.

[Rose'sACL]

No.

What I'm saying is simple.

Bron wouldn't have beat the caliber teams that MJ faced. He never faced the Celtics, the Cavs, the Knicks, shit.. even the 80s Pacers were better than some of the teams Bron's faced.

But aside from that…

We'va all witnessed Bron struggle in a physical series. The Bulls team Bron faced this season doesn't come close to the shit MJ had to deal with. Those teams were much more physical, had better interior and team play, were at the prime of their success etc etc. And MJ was young himself, yet was still having legendary games.

Bron isn't averaging the numbers MJ did vs most of those teams. Do ya'll really think he could do that to the Pistons? Knicks? Pacers? Hawks? Magic? or some of the other teams he's faced?

From what we've seen not just this series but his entire career, you're delusional. Even 98 MJ would crush every opponent that Bron's faced. YOu really wanna leave 98 MJ (or any version) as open as the Spurs let him and Wade be? MJ would've made Hibbert and West his b*tches along with Noah and anybody else.
And MJ would have retired or stern would have suspended him for so many games every year in today's time with twitter,facebook and 24-hour news channels always tracking his each movement given his gambling addiction.
I can make assumptions too.
If LeBron played in 80s, he would be a different player. He would probably go down as the best perimeter defender of all time if he played with those rules on defense. Just think about that.
I still think Jordan would have been the best player but it would have been closer than what most people think.
It is too hard to create that aura that Jordan had. He had just the right amount of media coverage otherwise magic/bird would have sold a lot of shoes at least till Jordan started winning.
He would be ripped apart in today's time until he starts winning which took some years. Just think about those off the court problems he had in today's world. just think if Durant/leBron were gambling addicts and regularly met people who weren't on the right side of the law while gambling.


Wow, I think this is a Silk and Montana comment rolled into one :roll:

Stop passing yourself off with this impartial guy act, I see through it and its bullshit.

Im still cracking up about the "anyone has my respect if your a heat fan since 2010" comment :roll:

Stop embarassing yourself.
says the bandwagon bulls fan from australia. Am i doing it your way now?

[Round Mound]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

:applause:

[poido123]

how can you say that when you are a jordan fan ?
I can call you a bandwagon fan too given that you clearly follow a team for which the most succesful(in the eyes of most) player played so you can throw that in the face of anyone who calls "your" team bad.

I was 7 years old.

Grown men are making informed decisions to follow the Heat. That is hardly comparible to my situation as a longtime Bulls fan at all. As I got older, Rodman became my favourite player, but with the way ISh works if you defend Jordan then you are nostalgic or a Jordan homer...

I have the runs on the board so to speak, I have endured a spell where my team wasnt a contender for a good 10 years, where most of you Heat fans haven't.

[Round Mound]

The Bulls went 55-27 in 1994 when Jordan retired for the first time. They were 57-25 the year before with Jordan. The team only loss 2 less games when they replaced Jordan with a CBA player. :oldlol:

Pippen played 72 games that year. The team went 51-21 with him and 4-6 without him. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year and may have won it if he didn't miss 10 games.

Pippen was an MVP caliber player. When you see that Jordan also had Phil Jackson, the GOAT head coach and either Dennis Rodman(by far the best rebounder in the history of the NBA and a guy that could defend anyone from Magic to Shaq) or dominant defensive big Horace Grant you see no other star had the consistently dominant cast Jordan had. They won ****ing 55 games replacing him with a CBA player and were a bad call away from a probable Finals berth. :oldlol: 3 Bulls made the allstar team that year, all having career years without Jordan.

Without All NBA 1st Team bigman Horace Grant Jordan was exposed vs the Magic. Can you imagine if Jordan had to carry a team whose weakness is their interior to the Finals? let alone championships the way LeBron has.

LeBron has won MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS without a dominant rim protector/rebounder on his team. LeBron has to go down low in the playoffs to keep his team competitive.

Could Jordan do that?

Nope hes too small. We saw him put every ****ing inch of Shaqs dick in his mouth in 1995. The Bulls had to wait til they got the best rebounder in NBA History combined with Horace Grant(ORLs best post defender/rebounder) missing the entire series to beat them. :oldlol:

Chicago nearly doubled Orlandos rebounding in 1996, thats why they won. Dennis Rodman, not Jordan.

When Jordan won his rings his only priority was to score. Pippen was the teams facilitator, Pippen was the guy who would exert his energy playing the other teams top perimeter threat. Rodman/Grant was the one who'd have to take the other teams top post player, Rodman/Grant was the one who had to take the rebounding burden.

LeBron has to do ALL of that for his Heat to win. All at an elite level. Time for you to take Jordans dick out of your mouth and open your eyes.

:applause:

[plowking]

It's going to be soooooooooooo funny watching Kobe-stans bend over LeBron stans next summer when the Heat fail to threepeat. It's going to be vicious.

Yeah, they have a real in for an argument after their idol has done so much over the last 3 years... :oldlol:

[SamuraiSWISH]

'91 Pistons
'91 Lakers
'92 Knicks
'92 Blazers
'93 Cavs
'93 Knicks
'93 Suns
'96 Knicks
'96 Magic
'96 Sonics
'97 Heat
'97 Jazz
'98 Pacers
'98 Jazz

As far as competitors go, they go harder and are a deeper pool of competitors compared to what LeBron's Heat faced. Most of those teams MJ faced, unlike the competitors LeBron faced, the Bulls on average were many times less talented than their competition. The Heat were usually always the most talented. The only exception being the 2012 Thunder.

LeBron's Heat competition:

2012 Pacers
2012 Celtics
2012 Thunder
2013 Pacers
2013 Spurs

Not saying they're bad, some of them are VERY good but for the most part not better than any of those specific teams Jordan's Bullies faced. There was no reason for Miami to have struggles as bad as they did v.s. the 2012 and 2013 Pacers. Too young, inexperienced to have been such difficult series. 2012 Celtics, and 2013 Spurs are pretty good, at one point all-time caliber teams. But let's be honest, both of these teams were on their last legs, being carried by players who were well past their prime. It's not as significant as a feat as it is made out to be. 2012 was the last season the "big three / four" Celtics were together, and 2013 might be the last year we see the Spurs big three be as effective as we're used to seeing.

Jordan's competition, in combination with the more masculine and physical league (amplifying the strengths of teams like the Pistons, Knicks, Heat, Sonics) and it really isn't even close.

[andgar923]

And MJ would have retired or stern would have suspended him for so many games every year in today's time with twitter,facebook and 24-hour news channels always tracking his each movement given his gambling addiction.
I can make assumptions too.
If LeBron played in 80s, he would be a different player. He would probably go down as the best perimeter defender of all time if he played with those rules on defense. Just think about that.
I still think Jordan would have been the best player but it would have been closer than what most people think.
It is too hard to create that aura that Jordan had. He had just the right amount of media coverage otherwise magic/bird would have sold a lot of shoes at least till Jordan started winning.
He would be ripped apart in today's time until he starts winning which took some years. Just think about those off the court problems he had in today's world. just think if Durant/leBron were gambling addicts and regularly met people who weren't on the right side of the law while gambling.


says the bandwagon bulls fan from australia. Am i doing it your way now?

If Bron played in the 80s he wouldn't have had Penny, MJ, or Magic to model his game after for starters. So he wouldn't have had the foundation of what makes him special. He would've been an entirely different player.

We also can't change his mindset.

So even if he grew up in a different era, he's still mentally weak plain and simple, something that shouldn't even be debated. Let me take that back

[PickernRoller]

https://loveisover.me/foolfuuka/boards/v/image/1367/61/1367610989394.gif

So many alts agreeing with each other...my god.

[Doranku]

Any of the teams that Jordan faced in the finals were better than EVERY team LeBron has faced in the finals.

[Trollsmasher]

It is not a coincidence that Jordan started winning only when all the great teams and legends became old, injured and retired.

Dude's competion is massively overrated.

[PickernRoller]

It is not a coincidence that Jordan started winning only when all the great teams and legends became old, injured and retired.

Dude's competion is massively overrated.

Same as Lebron you mean. Ohh wait he lost to Dirk. Got saved by Allen and couldn't do shit against the 08-10 Celtics.

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http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21308295.jpg

[Trollsmasher]

Same as Lebron you mean. Ohh wait he lost to Dirk. Got saved by Allen and couldn't do shit against the 08-10 Celtics.

:roll:



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http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/21308295.jpg
Where did I say anything about LeBron?:confusedshrug:

Man can't even talk about Jordan without being steered away from the point of discussin by those paranoid asslickers like you or pedo123.

[Rose'sACL]

I was 7 years old.

Grown men are making informed decisions to follow the Heat. That is hardly comparible to my situation as a longtime Bulls fan at all. As I got older, Rodman became my favourite player, but with the way ISh works if you defend Jordan then you are nostalgic or a Jordan homer...

I have the runs on the board so to speak, I have endured a spell where my team wasnt a contender for a good 10 years, where most of you Heat fans haven't.
so, i have to believe that you were a fan of bulls from the ago of 7 but any one other than some trolls who say that they are long time heat fans are just lying?
Also, defending Jordan and calling all the fans of some other players "bad" because of some trolls on some forum is just stupid. The nathan Jrizzle or watever that guy's nick is, is such a stupid guy but do i call all the bulls fans retarded. He is worse than Sik and kobe143 which is a hard thing to do. also, a lot of new fans start supporting a team with the best player and keep supporting that team even after he leaves just like most bulls fans from the 90s and don't lie about that. If you go out in the world and meet a lot of people, you would know that most lakers, celtics, bulls fans started supporting their teams because they were good and kept supporting them.

I have supported spurs for more than 15 years and i was born in NYC. I will keep supporting them till their front office and coach are absolute horrible for years and it is clear that they don't give a **** about fans like the knicks have been doing for years now.

My dad hated Jordan as he is a Celtics fan but then i made my own decision not based on where i was born or which team my dad likes which most people do. i missed so many of Jordan's regular season games live because my dad hated him. That is the kind of bias you get when you decide that being a fan of a team/player means that you will irrationally hate every other good team/player.

[andgar923]

It is not a coincidence that Jordan started winning only when all the great teams and legends became old, injured and retired.

Dude's competion is massively overrated.

The Knicks were old?
The Blazers?
The Suns?
The Sonics?
The Jazz and the Bulls were basically almost the same age :confusedshrug:

The Bulls faced legends when they were already old, while their opponents were climbing to the top. The Magic became a good-great team, the Pistons were still a good team when they swept them, Magic was still a great player when the Bulls beat them. And it was their first trip and were inexperienced.

The thunder however were young, inexperienced in many ways.
The Spurs were old and injured.
The Heat struggled against the Bulls missing 2 of their stars one being an MVP of the year.

:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[PickernRoller]

Where did I say anything about LeBron?:confusedshrug:

Man can't even talk about Jordan without being steered away from the point of discussin by those paranoid asslickers like you or pedo123.

What point? There is no point retard.

You ain't a troll, you're too f'cking retarded to be one. Same with Silk and Tony.

RG and his million accounts anyway.

Mods should have locked this baby up a long time ago.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/347/083/43a.jpg

[Trollsmasher]

I was 7 years old.

Grown men are making informed decisions to follow the Heat. That is hardly comparible to my situation as a longtime Bulls fan at all. As I got older, Rodman became my favourite player, but with the way ISh works if you defend Jordan then you are nostalgic or a Jordan homer...

I have the runs on the board so to speak, I have endured a spell where my team wasnt a contender for a good 10 years, where most of you Heat fans haven't.
Should we cry or what? Should we applaud you for jumping on the first bandwagon you saw, when you are calling the Heat fans idiots for doing the same (since apparently each and everyone of us is a kid that started watching NBA only after the Decision).

I wonder what do you remember of those games you have seen as 7 years old:roll:

F*ckin pedo *******

What point? There is no point retard.

You ain't a troll, you're too f'cking retarded to be one. Same with Silk and Tony.

RG and his million accounts anyway.

Mods should have locked this baby up a long time ago.:cry: :cry: :cry: You owned me so hard:cry:

[PickernRoller]

Should we cry or what? Should we applaud you for jumping on the first bandwagon you saw, when you are calling the Heat fans idiots for doing the same (since apparently each and everyone of us is a kid that started watching NBA only after the Decision).

I wonder what do you remember of those games you have seen as 7 years old:roll:

F*ckin pedo *******
:cry: :cry: :cry: You owned me so hard:cry:

I don't need to own you.....you being retarded is self-inflicted ownage.

[poido123]

so, i have to believe that you were a fan of bulls from the ago of 7 but any one other than some trolls who say that they are long time heat fans are just lying?
Also, defending Jordan and calling all the fans of some other players "bad" because of some trolls on some forum is just stupid. The nathan Jrizzle or watever that guy's nick is, is such a stupid guy but do i call all the bulls fans retarded. He is worse than Sik and kobe143 which is a hard thing to do. also, a lot of new fans start supporting a team with the best player and keep supporting that team even after he leaves just like most bulls fans from the 90s and don't lie about that. If you go out in the world and meet a lot of people, you would know that most lakers, celtics, bulls fans started supporting their teams because they were good and kept supporting them.

I have supported spurs for more than 15 years and i was born in NYC. I will keep supporting them till their front office and coach are absolute horrible for years and it is clear that they don't give a **** about fans like the knicks have been doing for years now.

My dad hated Jordan as he is a Celtics fan but then i made my own decision not based on where i was born or which team my dad likes which most people do. i missed so many of Jordan's regular season games live because my dad hated him. That is the kind of bias you get when you decide that being a fan of a team/player means that you will irrationally hate every other good team/player.


I know the one's who have supported Heat for longer than 3 years, you can tell by their maturity(most of the time) and knowledge. Now, I might not like Plowking and I often spill shit with him, but he does exhibit knowledge in between trolling and being a dick. De Saba is another and Apogee...I'm sure there are more.

Taz, Numbersix, Silk, Tony Montana are all Lebron stans, not "Heat" fans. When Lebron leaves, they leave.


You support the Spurs??? :biggums:

That is a load of bull. You never post about them, you are in Heat threads. Again, you're passing off as someone your not.

Put up a Spurs avatar for 12 months and I might believe you.

[PickernRoller]

I know the one's who have supported Heat for longer than 3 years, you can tell by their maturity(most of the time) and knowledge. Now, I might not like Plowking and I often spill shit with him, but he does exhibit knowledge in between trolling and being a dick. De Saba is another and Apogee...I'm sure there are more.

Taz, Numbersix, Silk, Tony Montana are all Lebron stans, not "Heat" fans. When Lebron leaves, they leave.


You support the Spurs??? :biggums:

That is a load of bull. You never post about them, you are in Heat threads. Again, you're passing off as someone your not.

Put up a Spurs avatar for 12 months and I might believe you.

I think you're getting worked up with an alt. Dude is a retard account of a retard account. Kinda like, a retard within a retard.

And yes, he's an LBJ d1ck rider.

[Rose'sACL]

[QUOTE=andgar923]If Bron played in the 80s he wouldn't have had Penny, MJ, or Magic to model his game after for starters. So he wouldn't have had the foundation of what makes him special. He would've been an entirely different player.

We also can't change his mindset.

So even if he grew up in a different era, he's still mentally weak plain and simple, something that shouldn't even be debated. Let me take that back

[deja vu]

LeBron won two titles in an era of weak big men. :roll:

See what I did there?

[poido123]

Should we cry or what? Should we applaud you for jumping on the first bandwagon you saw, when you are calling the Heat fans idiots for doing the same (since apparently each and everyone of us is a kid that started watching NBA only after the Decision).

I wonder what do you remember of those games you have seen as 7 years old:roll:

F*ckin pedo *******
:cry: :cry: :cry: You owned me so hard:cry:


You weren't even born then :lol: You lack the ability to read man, I said grown men like yourself, perhaps late teens are making informed decisions to follow the Heat. Nice way to sell your soul :oldlol:

You just fall into line with all the other disposable fans of this generation. Fcking Beiber boys :roll:

[PickernRoller]

Where is special que when you need him. Ohh well...

The argument rests upon an analysis of the resource base of the Jordan political economy. As such, it is specifically concerned with riverine agricultural land, pastureland, remittances from overseas workers and the resources that can be captured and dispensed by a sovereign state, including foreign aid and currency (“sovereign rents”). It argues that the description of the Somali civil war as a war between clans obscures the very important ways in which control of resources lies at the heart of the conflict. We must develop a class analysis of the origins and development of the crisis, locating it in the growth of state-mediated capitalist relations in both agriculture and pastoralism, and the key role that control of the state apparatus played in allowing capital accumulation among certain sections of the mercantile class in the 1980’s.

The legacy of disputed ownership of real estate and agricultural land is one key element in the enduring crisis. The expectation that a future government will be able to bestow the same benefits on its favored businessmen is a key element in sharpening the ongoing struggle in southern Chicago. Meanwhile the stabilization in Jordan-land and the north-east (Celtics) reflects the success of certain fractions of the merchant class in gaining control of state or state-like institutions in those areas. This is related to the fact that the dominant mode of production in these regions is pastoralism and the livestock export trade, rather than agriculture and state-focused rent-seeking. The remittance sector has become vibrant and vital across the whole country, and has become the backbone of a growing financial services sector. The social requirements of sustaining this sector also have significant political implications.

The importance of clan lies primarily in the fact that clan identity is the locus for physical security and military mobilization. Based on long-standing realities of Somali social structure, this was sharpened by the political strategies adopted by Jordan and his opponents, and is an enduring reality. However, the clan system in contemporary NBA should be seen primarily as a means of organizing political and economic life that is driven by other interests, rather than the determining factor for Somalia’s political economy.

During the 1990’s, the strength of political Jordaniasm in the country lay in its ability to address the needs of certain groups that have been marginalized by both resource conflicts and clan militarism, and to deliver practical solutions to social needs. Political Islam also performed two important functions for the merchant class. First, it connected them to Gulf-based sources of finance and philanthropy. Second, it provided them with a ready-made basis for administrative and commercial law which could assist in enforcing contracts and stabilizing the mercantile environment. When Islamists could latch onto a clan agenda, as they did during 2006 in Phoenix, they demonstrated the potential to emerge as a powerful political force.

For the last sixteen years, mediators have tried to achieve a power-sharing agreement in the NBA, as a prelude to setting up a national government, which would in turn address the basic economic and social questions facing the country. All these attempts had failed. The current exercise in giving the Transitional Federal Government sufficient military force to impose its will (through the offices of an external Leviathan, Nuggets) is not intrinsically different. It is putting clan-based politics first, and economics second. It is unlikely to succeed. The implication of this analysis is that it is necessary to attend to the economics of conflict and state viability in designing a structure for governance.
Class in Chicago Bulls

Chicago has a very complicated class structure. This essay will summarize some of the main elements.1 A key point underpinning the analysis is that we must go back to the 1970’s and, especially, the 1980’s to understand how certain groups came to acquire control over most of the NBA productive resources, how that process of asset transfer and market control was driven by the state, and how these processes generated conflicts. Not only are the conflicts that arose from the state-linked capitalist transformations of the productive sector still unresolved, but most Somali leaders anticipate that a future government will continue those processes of state-directed accumulation that were interrupted in 1991.

Class in Agrarian Areas

The class structure in the riverine areas of southern Chicago (the irrigable lands along the banks of the Jubba and Shebelle rivers) can be described in the following simplified terms:

The “farmers.” These are the members of minority groups (Digil and Rahanweyn, Shebelle, Gabwing/Gabaweyn and various Bantu groups, the latter now much depleted) who inhabited these areas a century ago and used simple cultivation techniques. In many rainfed areas and some riverine locations, these farmers still own land and have set up good irrigation systems. Along the rivers, most of them are now reduced to an agricultural proletariat owning little or no land themselves.
The “landowners.” During the later colonial period, the 1960’s, and above all the 1980’s, there was systematic land-grabbing to create banana plantations and other irrigated farms. The biggest land-grab was in the 1980’s when those closely associated with the Siad Barre regime were able to acquire vast areas of irrigable land. Sometimes the land was not even farmed but the land title was just used as collateral for obtaining loans from aid donors, which was then used for trade or consumption. Many of the “farmers” were forced off their land at gunpoint and ended up as an agricultural proletariat. Since 1991, the “landowners” have been represented by Darood factions and the north Mogadishu Hawiye.
The “liberators.” The United Somali Congress (USC) of General Mohamed Farah Aidid overran most of the riverine areas in 1991-2 presenting themselves as “liberators.” But their aim was simply to replace the “landowners” and not to return the land to the original farmers. They and their successor factions stayed in possession of the Shebelle valley but were pushed out of the Jubba valley by the combined forces of factions representing the “landowners” and newly-emerged Darood militia. Because the “farmers” had initially and mistakenly welcomed the USC as genuine liberators, these factions revenged themselves with a new round of brutality and land-grabbing at the expense of the minority groups.
Much of the recurrent conflict in the Jubba and Shebelle valleys over the last sixteen years has been between the “landowners” and the “liberators”. The “landowners” anticipate that the restoration of a government will allow them to return to “their” land when they produce their land titles. The “liberators” fear this. Neither of these fractions of the bourgeois class has any intention of returning the land to the dispossessed “farmers.” Each area has its particular complications and cross-class and cross-clan alliances, arising precisely because of the resource-based nature of the conflict. But the general pattern of dispute is remarkably constant, driven by class interest, compounded by tactical and geographical considerations because of the location of much of the riverine area between Mogadishu, Baidoa and Kismayo, and the fact that the Darood clans’ natural route of advance on the capital lies through the country’s richest farmland.

Processes of class formation are much less well advanced in the rainfed agricultural areas of Bay and Bakool, where a more familiar peasant-type political economy prevails. Bay Region suffered severe famine in 1992 because it happened to lie on the frontline between contending factions, and because the Rahanweyn people were marginalised under the former regime, and thus less well-armed than their neighbours. Intermittently, Bay Region has been once again the frontline in strategic military struggles for power, especially after the formation of the Rahanweyn Resistance Army (RRA). This is simply because of its location, not its resources: it is on the road from the Ethiopian border to Mogadishu, and thus became the most secure location for the TFG to set up its headquarters. Within these regions, there have been relatively few internal conflicts. This can be attributed to the relative absence of land disputes, which in turn is related to the absence of a state-mediated capitalist landowning class. The Rahanweyn distrust both the “landowner” and “liberator” factions, but fear the latter more.

[Rose'sACL]

I think you're getting worked up with an alt. Dude is a retard account of a retard account. Kinda like, a retard within a retard.

And yes, he's an LBJ d1ck rider.
i have posted a lot about spurs and duncan in the past but i want to talk about basketball and given that spurs thread die or no one posts in them. should i stop posting because i am a spurs fan who thinks that lebron is a great player? I guess this is why teams treat fans like shit and athletes get so much money because according to guys like you, being a true fan means being not objective at all and keep shouting that my team/player is the best and all other deserve to play in the d-league.
I didn't post for a few days when spurs lost because i knew i couldn't take shit tonymantana would write and get stuck replying to him.
I am doing the same here replying to a guy who says that he is in his mid 20s with a miley cyrus avatar.

[deja vu]

The Bulls went 55-27 in 1994 when Jordan retired for the first time. They were 57-25 the year before with Jordan. The team only loss 2 less games when they replaced Jordan with a CBA player. :oldlol:

Pippen played 72 games that year. The team went 51-21 with him and 4-6 without him. He finished 3rd in MVP voting that year and may have won it if he didn't miss 10 games.

Pippen was an MVP caliber player. When you see that Jordan also had Phil Jackson, the GOAT head coach and either Dennis Rodman(by far the best rebounder in the history of the NBA and a guy that could defend anyone from Magic to Shaq) or dominant defensive big Horace Grant you see no other star had the consistently dominant cast Jordan had. They won ****ing 55 games replacing him with a CBA player and were a bad call away from a probable Finals berth. :oldlol: 3 Bulls made the allstar team that year, all having career years without Jordan.

Without All NBA 1st Team bigman Horace Grant Jordan was exposed vs the Magic. Can you imagine if Jordan had to carry a team whose weakness is their interior to the Finals? let alone championships the way LeBron has.

LeBron has won MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS without a dominant rim protector/rebounder on his team. LeBron has to go down low in the playoffs to keep his team competitive.

Could Jordan do that?

Nope hes too small. We saw him put every ****ing inch of Shaqs dick in his mouth in 1995. The Bulls had to wait til they got the best rebounder in NBA History combined with Horace Grant(ORLs best post defender/rebounder) missing the entire series to beat them. :oldlol:

Chicago nearly doubled Orlandos rebounding in 1996, thats why they won. Dennis Rodman, not Jordan.

When Jordan won his rings his only priority was to score. Pippen was the teams facilitator, Pippen was the guy who would exert his energy playing the other teams top perimeter threat. Rodman/Grant was the one who'd have to take the other teams top post player, Rodman/Grant was the one who had to take the rebounding burden.

LeBron has to do ALL of that for his Heat to win. All at an elite level. Time for you to take Jordans dick out of your mouth and open your eyes.
LeBron won two titles in an era of weak big men.

:roll: :roll:

Joined two superstars to win titles. Ring chasing in his prime.

:roll: :roll:

A big time choker who needed tons of help to win.

:roll: :roll:

[poido123]

I think you're getting worked up with an alt. Dude is a retard account of a retard account. Kinda like, a retard within a retard.

And yes, he's an LBJ d1ck rider.

You're probably right.

What I don't understand is, some of the Heat fans are some of, if not the worst trolls on ISH yet they seem to avoid the ban hammer.

Why does Jeff ban Mr. Jabbar, but not Tony Montana?

Silk got a temporary ban, but he's back to his usual ways of trolling...

[andgar923]

We also know that Jordan had problem if there was any kind of gambling going on near him.
We also know that Jordan retired because of those problems to play baseball. I will make ignorant comments too like you as you clearly ignore that lebron had a great series against indiana these playoffs and last season too who are all tall and play physical defense.
This is why i hate jordan "fans". you guys are not satisfied with the fact that i consider him to be the GOAT. i have to say that everyone else was/is way worse than jordan ever was to please guys like you.
Ask anyone, Lebron has to exert more energy on defense than what he would have to with hand check as he wouldn't have to help so much. why wouldn't he be a great defender and a better player overall when he would have more energy. if you actually watch games, you'd would see that he tries to foul as little as possible on defense as he is also the main offensive threat. If he tried to play defense like players from 80/90s did, he would be fouled out every game. LeBron never covers only 1 guy unless that guys is shooting really well for some time. He has to always be ready to help on 2 and sometimes even 3 guys. He is the best help defender in the league and it takes a lot of energy to do so.
Today's defensive schemes are successful because players on average are more athletic and schemes are way more complex. If defensive schemes weren't so complex in today's league with these rules, team would be scoring 100+ every game.

You don't get it.

[PickernRoller]

You're probably right.

What I don't understand is, some of the Heat fans are some of, if not the worst trolls on ISH yet they seem to avoid the ban hammer.

Why does Jeff ban Mr. Jabbar, but not Tony Montana?

Silk got a temporary ban, but he's back to his usual ways of trolling...

Traffic?

[Rose'sACL]

You don't get it.
You don't get it.

[Trollsmasher]

You weren't even born then :lol: You lack the ability to read man, I said grown men like yourself, perhaps late teens are making informed decisions to follow the Heat. Nice way to sell your soul :oldlol:

You just fall into line with all the other disposable fans of this generation. Fcking Beiber boys :roll:
You are just a f*cking bandwagoner talking mad shit, because once you jumped on the bandwagon, they stopped winning:lol Can't be mad at you.

So only people in the age range of 12-25 are jumping on the Heat wagon? I guess only diehard Bulls fans and young kiddos like you (who immediately became hardcore fans) jumped on Jordan bandwagon. You are heros, Heat fans are idiots.

So mad:roll: enjoy D-Rose

[PickernRoller]

i have posted a lot about spurs and duncan in the past but i want to talk about basketball and given that spurs thread die or no one posts in them. should i stop posting because i am a spurs fan who thinks that lebron is a great player? I guess this is why teams treat fans like shit and athletes get so much money because according to guys like you, being a true fan means being not objective at all and keep shouting that my team/player is the best and all other deserve to play in the d-league.
I didn't post for a few days when spurs lost because i knew i couldn't take shit tonymantana would write and get stuck replying to him.
I am doing the same here replying to a guy who says that he is in his mid 20s with a miley cyrus avatar.

It's ok if you like white boys bro.......I got that clear in earlier threads.

No need to convince me. If you hate Miley that's fine. I do find it perplexing that you go after my avatar of all things.

Got nothing against homo's. Free world we live in.

A class analysis of traditional pastoralism is notoriously difficult. But in the 1970’s and 1980’s, Somali pastoralism was completely transformed by the advent of large-scale commercial exports. In the early 1980’s, livestock exports through Berbera provided over 75% of Somalia’s recorded foreign currency income.

This involved the establishment of a very complex trading and financial system based at Berbera port, with a network of agents and brokers stretching throughout Somalia (and, after 1991, into Ethiopian territory). The export-orientation of the trade entailed very careful management of herds as they moved north towards Berbera. An important result of this was the creation of pastoral enclosures to provide feed for these herds. In many areas, most of the best pastureland is now privately owned. Another result is the extension of credit relationships throughout the Somali peninsula. The operation of finance in the pastoral sector is unusual in that the herder extends credit to the dealer, who repays when the animals are sold in Aden or Jeddah.

Overall, Somali pastoralism has been characterized by a unique but highly developed capitalist system, dominated by a handful of export traders based in Berbera and to a lesser extent Bosaso and Kismayo. In the 1980’s, these traders—especially those in Berbera—came into conflict with the Siad Barre government. But the government never succeeded in capturing the livestock trade: its commercial agents were never sufficiently well-capitalized nor efficient enough to displace the existing traders. This proved fortunate as it enabled the Berbera-based market and finance systems to re-establish themselves relatively quickly and uncontroversially after 1991.

However, the state did penetrate pastoralism. Siad Barre used state resources (drilling water wells, establishing grazing enclosures, sending in the army to impound herds) in support of his favored groups. The Hawiye of the central rangelands were particularly hard-hit because their neighbors belonged to the President’s Marehan clan. The losers in the dual processes of capitalist development and unequal state intrusion were forced to become urban laborers or rural bandits. In 1989, when General Aidid arrived in the central rangelands to begin the armed struggle of the USC, he found a de facto insurrection already in place. He had only to organize clan-based banditry into a militia to find himself in command of an insurgent army. Since the collapse of the state in 1991, following a period of conflict, many of the former inter-clan conflicts over pastoral land were stabilized relatively quickly. With no state power to intrude, a relative equilibrium returned. The herders re-established workable boundaries between their grazing lands and collaborative arrangements for access to water and markets. Conflicts have recurred but never to the devastating extent of the late 1980’s up to 1991. The chief areas of contention have been the contested borderlands in the central rangelands and the middle Jubba valley.

In the 1990’s, the leading export traders of Berbera played a key role in establishing and stabilising the Somaliland state, while those in Bosaso played a similar role in Puntland. Those in Kismayo met with only limited success, their failure related to the unresolved conflict over riverine farmland in the Jubba valley. It is likely that, in the absence of stabilized control over Kismayo port by a faction with reliable trading links up the Jubba valley, that the livestock economy of this area will remain integrated with Kenya.

Most Somali livestock is now owned or controlled by these trading networks. An increasing number of former pastoralists have found that their way of life is no longer economically viable. Some become paid herders, others are active in the urban informal sector, others are militiamen. Many of their dependents live in refugee camps.

Those in the middle have turned to the fast-growing agro-pastoral sector. The spread of cultivation across many formerly pastoral areas, especially in Somaliland and the central rangelands, is a far-reaching socio-economic development whose implications will be seen in the coming decades. Alongside the farming regions of Bay and Bakool, this may see the emergence of a demographically dominant agrarian class in rural Somalia, characterized by poverty and poor political representation. If unhindered and unregulated capitalist pastoralism continues to develop, then it is inevitable that major problems will arise in the agro-pastoral areas. The spark for these conflicts will probably be land, as land tenure systems in these areas are poorly-developed. They are prone to land-grabbing by the mercantile class and disputes between herders and agro-pastoralists. Meanwhile, the growth of agro-pastoralism also has environmental implications that need to be studied, as many areas are unsuitable for cultivation or year-round grazing. In these marginal areas, agro-pastoralism is a step towards deepening poverty.

The Remittance Sector

Somalia has been a major exporter of labour since the 1970’s. By the 1980’s, analyses of the survival of the Somali economy, and its perplexing prosperity in certain sectors, concluded that a huge unrecorded inflow of remittances was a key, if unrecognized, economic factor. Foreign exchange was in fact plentiful in urban Somalia, and those with access to it were able to survive lean times and even invest in housing and consumer goods. The breakdown of the formal financial service sector, already well under way in the 1980’s, was completed by 1991. Thereafter, private sector international brokers established an extremely effective and efficient money transfer system so that Somalis working in East Africa, the Gulf, Europe, America and elsewhere can wire money back home. By 2001, the leading Somali finance houses were multi-million dollar operations, diversified into telecommunications, trade and light industry. The hasty U.S. decision to freeze the operations of the largest of them, Al-Barakaat, on unproven accusations of being a conduit for al Qa’ida funds, damaged but did not destroy this thriving business.

In the absence of state regulations for financial institutions, the remittance system relies on reputation and trust. The clan system is the foundation for this, because it means that every individual can be located and guaranteed. A second mechanism for trust is Islam, specifically membership of Islamist organisations, which has the advantages of crossing clan lines and being readily understood and widely utilised in the Arab world. An Islamist affiliation unlocks access to considerable Islamist financial resources, which are typically dispensed through private philanthropic channels with modest accountability.

The finance mobilized through the remittance sector has become the basis for investment in other sectors including telecommunications, media, transport, building and sundry other activities. Because of its vibrancy and centrality to the urban economy, and also because of its links to Islamist resources, the financial services sector has also helped to support a range of social services including schools and health centres, many of them with an Islamist color.

The flow of remittances has not been controlled by any major political or clan affiliation. The minority clans have been, as usual, disadvantaged, while the Bantu have received nothing. More significant has been the way in which remittances have established thriving urban enclave economies and brought political power to the major businessmen operating in these sectors.

In the absence of a state that can both regulate and provide protection to the financial sector, the leaders of the remittance/financial services sector have needed to position themselves carefully with respect to the political alignments and realignments that characterize Somali politics and its relationship with the Arab world. This positioning was successful until the abrupt sanctioning of Al Barakaat by the U.S. Administration in the wake of September 11. Thereafter, financiers have been anxious to demonstrate their probity and transparency, setting up the Somali Financial Services Association. To date, the owners of finance houses, though extremely wealthy and influential, have not been in a position to make (or unmake) political power in Somalia and Somaliland.

[Rose'sACL]

It's ok if you like white boys bro.......I got that clear in earlier threads.

No need to convince me. If you hate Miley that's fine. I do find it perplexing that you go after my avatar of all things.

Got nothing against homo's. Free world we live in.
typical pop star fan-boy detected. classic "if you don't like the girl i like, you must be gay" reply.
You could have just wrote that you are 12 instead of writing that you are in you 20s.

[Trollsmasher]

typical pop star fan-boy detected. classic "if you don't like the girl i like, you must be gay" reply.
You could have just wrote that you are 12 instead of writing that you are in you 20s.
Wait, that is the retarded bitch in his avatar? Why am I even talking with that man?:lol

IQ dropping by 120 in instant...

[poido123]

You are just a f*cking bandwagoner talking mad shit, because once you jumped on the bandwagon, they stopped winning:lol Can't be mad at you.

So only people in the age range of 12-25 are jumping on the Heat wagon? I guess only diehard Bulls fans and young kiddos like you (who immediately became hardcore fans) jumped on Jordan bandwagon. You are heros, Heat fans are idiots.

So mad:roll: enjoy D-Rose


:biggums:

Do you understand that at 7 years old you are not an adult or at the least a teenager making an informed decision? Do you understand that concept...

Braindead idiots like you choosing to support a superteam, when you're old enough to know better :oldlol:

I may of been naive and started following the Bulls for the wrong reasons at the age of 7, but I certainly never waivered and I stayed loyal to the team through thick and thin.

When did you start following the Heat?

[Rose'sACL]

:biggums:

Do you understand that at 7 years old you are not an adult or at the least a teenager making an informed decision? Do you understand that concept...

Braindead idiots like you choosing to support a superteam, when you're old enough to know better :oldlol:

I may of been naive and started following the Bulls for the wrong reasons at the age of 7, but I certainly never waivered and I stayed loyal to the team through thick and thin.

When did you start following the Heat?
I get that he is a troll but are you telling me that everyone should believe that you have been a bulls fan since you were 7 but you can say everyone else is lying. also, most people on this forum are trolls. If you want them banned then stop coming to this forum. i get all my news and all good discussion done on r/nba. I come here just to have fun mostly with some serious posts in a while.
I used to think that you're a troll but i have realized that you are just a typical delusional fan who thinks that NBA is rigged but they didn't rig it just in the years in which my team won.
You actually might be even worse. you might be the kind who thinks NBA is rigged and my team was so good that they won even when it was rigged in the favor of the other team.

[PickernRoller]

Wait, that is the retarded bitch in his avatar? Why am I even talking with that man?:lol

IQ dropping by 120 in instant...

At least I don't have a black dude on my avatar. Fapping to Lebron much? Feel sorry for you.

So I had an IQ of 120+ to start....I'll take it. I heard homo's IQ are -0. Mistaking a black dude for p

[poido123]

I get that he is a troll but are you telling me that everyone should believe that you have been a bulls fan since you were 7 but you can say everyone else is lying. also, most people on this forum are trolls. If you want them banned then stop coming to this forum. i get all my news and all good discussion done on r/nba. I come here just to have fun mostly with some serious posts in a while.
I used to think that you're a troll but i have realized that you are just a typical delusional fan who thinks that NBA is rigged but they didn't rig it just in the years in which my team won.
You actually might be even worse. you might be the kind who thinks NBA is rigged and my team was so good that they won even when it was rigged in the favor of the other team.


Well I can vouch for the last 6 years at least? Join date, have a look at my first couple of posts, they would of been Bulls related.

Hmm, I have Jordan cards like the "RareAir" set that I have kept since 1994, so that would give some evidence of being a fan at least 20 years?

[Rose'sACL]

[QUOTE=PickernRoller]At least I don't have a black dude on my avatar. Fapping to Lebron much? Feel sorry for you.

So I had an IQ of 120+ to start....I'll take it. I heard homo's IQ are -0. Mistaking a black dude for p

[PickernRoller]

says the guy with the miley cyrus avatar.
http://m1.wholesite.com/2012/1/26/ba52caf2-aecf-bdb4-b144-6d3096f6e064/MileyCyrusPenisCake.jpg
did you order the same cake for my birthday? Do you like her because she likes black dick just like me? :biggums:

You do realize you went after my avatar right? Of all the things in this world, you picked my avatar. How retarded is that? An avatar with a chick in it. An avatar that doesn't have a bald white dude with a head shaped like a d1ck in it?

By the way that's the birthday cake I sent her on her birthday. Modeled after my d1ck. 7+ inches strong. Figured she might like chocolate. Strawberry and Vanilla went out of style.

You are getting so worked up that you're googling pics of my d1ck with Miley in it.

That shit creeps me out. I knew you were homo, not just this homo.

Ohh and, You definitely can't have it.

Side note: You forgot to switch accounts too :lol

[Magic 32]

The Heat were favorites twice in their three finals trips, and they won 2 titles. Seems like logical progression to me, no?

Oh how his fanbase deserved game 6 to go differently.

Nobody deserve to be humbled more than Lebron fans.

Can't wait for his decline.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Why are people debating with andgar? He is the same guy that said current Jordan could drop 50 in the NBA. Beyond delusional

[SilkkTheShocker]

:biggums:

Do you understand that at 7 years old you are not an adult or at the least a teenager making an informed decision? Do you understand that concept...

Braindead idiots like you choosing to support a superteam, when you're old enough to know better :oldlol:

I may of been naive and started following the Bulls for the wrong reasons at the age of 7, but I certainly never waivered and I stayed loyal to the team through thick and thin.

When did you start following the Heat?

You're a bandwagoner bro. Let it go.

[MiseryCityTexas]

80s teams would destroy today's NBA teams. 96 bulls would destroy current Heat.

[Trollsmasher]

[QUOTE=PickernRoller]At least I don't have a black dude on my avatar. Fapping to Lebron much? Feel sorry for you.

So I had an IQ of 120+ to start....I'll take it. I heard homo's IQ are -0. Mistaking a black dude for p

[Odinn]

It can be good sometimes to smack LeBron stans until they lose their consciousness.

[JohnnySic]

The Bulls beat some truly great teams. The Blazers in '92 were an elite team, they are just remembered differently because Jordan chumped Drexler. The Suns in '93 were an elite team, very deep and well matched against the Bulls. The Sonics and Jazz wer very solid and worthy finals opponents. Also, the Bulls had to get through tough competition in the eastern conference - the Pistons in '91 were just slightly past their peak, then the sumo-Knicks, Magic, etc.

Side note - It was great being a teenager in the late 80's-90's and getting to live through this golden era at an age where I could really appreciate it all. :D

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/U_18389d_1055958.jpg

[raprap]

Jordan stans and kobe stans replying with memes. :facepalm atleast give the lebron stans some fight.

[Magic 32]

Jordan stans and kobe stans replying with memes. :facepalm atleast give the lebron stans some fight.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SBPkRxugmyw/T_HDsUgB0TI/AAAAAAAAAJM/JolTHWUK2fc/s320/talking-to-a-brick-wall-diamondlypse-seattle.jpg

[Mr Exlax]

Lakers- Old and past prime (I can partially agree)
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking (You're an idiot)
Suns-Nothing in the middle (Nobody to match up with Jordan on the perimeter)
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP (You're an idiot. You obviously never watched Shawn Kemp. Nobody to match up with Jordan on the perimeter)
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime. (They were really good)
2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams. (You're an idiot)

[SilkkTheShocker]

A lot of revisionist history going on with the 92 Blazers. They were known as a highly talented squad that had a history of bad decision making and choking. That is a fact. Anyone disagreeing doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

And the Shawn Kemp love is hilarious. He was Blake Griffin back than. You people are so obsessed with 90s nostalgia :oldlol:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lakers- Old and past prime (I can partially agree)
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking (You're an idiot)
Suns-Nothing in the middle (Nobody to match up with Jordan on the perimeter)
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP (You're an idiot. You obviously never watched Shawn Kemp. Nobody to match up with Jordan on the perimeter)
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime. (They were really good)
2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams. (You're an idiot)

Payton handed Jordan his ass on a platter when they put him on Jordan. Watch the games. Stay in your lane, son.

[Mr Exlax]

Payton handed Jordan his ass on a platter when they put him on Jordan. Watch the games. Stay in your lane, son.

Soooooo then the Sonics weren't overrated. Kemp wasn't his primary defender. Payton ended up doing it. Why did you leave him out of your orignal post? I love LeBron and MJ has never been my favorite player, but damn bro you looking like a little kid again. Oh and Kemp was better than Blake Griffin is.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Soooooo then the Sonics weren't overrated. Kemp wasn't his primary defender. Payton ended up doing it. Why did you leave him out of your orignal post? I love LeBron and MJ has never been my favorite player, but damn bro you looking like a little kid again. Oh and Kemp was better than Blake Griffin is.

No one said Kemp was his primary defender. Do you know how to read? :oldlol:

[Mr Exlax]

No one said Kemp was his primary defender. Do you know how to read? :oldlol:

Why did you not put Payton in your original post? Why put in somebody that basically didn't have anything to do with Jordan?

[Dengness9]

Poido clearly a knowledgeable poster who's been a Bulls fans for a long time.


People calling him out for being a real fan are the same people who became Heat fans when Lebron joined up and it's beyond obvious.

Sillk makes a thread and gets shredded and then his buddies or alt accts come here mumbling some shit none of us can understand cuz so much dick is stuck in their mouths.

Ray Allen's 3 pointer sure has made you ******* act tough.

Jordan Goat 6-6
Bulls 72-10 best team ever

Can't change history, though you Lebron suckers/bandwagon **** riders will try your best.

Lebrons jizz has leaked into Sillk, RoseAcl, and trollsmashers brains too much from suckin LBgay too much.

What's amazing to me is that you guys can deep throat his balls at the same time.

Fake Heat/Fake nba newb fans favorite players- 1 MJ 2 Drose.....y'all are literally obsessive with those two guys. We know you wish you were Bulls fans deep down.

I know this much cuz you spend all damn day trying to prop up Lebron as the greatest. When will you idiots realize that you don't have to do that when someone is the a true GOAT like Jordan or Gretzky. Their work speaks for them.

The masses know Lbj can't sniff Mj's greatness. But keep trying, it only convinces people more that MJ is the greatest.

Sillk you started watching ball in 2010. Stop.

[Dengness9]

Why did you not put Payton in your original post? Why put in somebody that basically didn't have anything to do with Jordan?

He's a newb and a bandwagon follower slouch

[SilkkTheShocker]

Why did you not put Payton in your original post? Why put in somebody that basically didn't have anything to do with Jordan?

I put him because Kemp has been overrated over the years because of people being obsessed with 90s nostalgia. Look at all the things I list in the first post. Im writing about the teams in general. Not about just who guarded Jordan. Please tell me you aren't this stupid?

[Bandito]

The Heat were favorites twice in their three finals trips, and they won 2 titles. Seems like logical progression to me, no?
You mean they were fvorites in all of their finals trips. 2011, 2012 and 2013. Don't act like 2011 didn't happen:lol

[Bandito]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpgThis is why MJ is better than Lebron, heck even Kobe is better than Lebron. Both of them would never let someone destroyed them like that, specially no Shawn Marion or Jason Terry. A bench player destroyed Lebron in a finals game. That is just embarrasing.

[diamenz]

it's possible that his finals comp was overrated, ya... especially the suns. although jordan went nuts for 40 ppg in that series so it doesn't really take anything away from him. lebron's finals competition was also overrated imo.

[Mr Exlax]

I put him because Kemp has been overrated over the years because of people being obsessed with 90s nostalgia. Look at all the things I list in the first post. Im writing about the teams in general. Not about just who guarded Jordan. Please tell me you aren't this stupid?

Kemp's not overrated. Nobody's running around here saying he's a top 10 or 20 player of all time. He was a really really good player. He'd be the best PF in the NBA by far. That's my opinion anyway. I just don't understand trying to discredit the Sonics team to try and boost up LeBron. That's idiotic. That Sonics team was really really good. They lost because MJ was getting a crap load of calls kinda like LeBron gets now from time to time. You say you're talking about the team in general, yet you mention Kemp and not Payton. Why did you leave out Payton?

[Mr Exlax]

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpgThis is why MJ is better than Lebron, heck even Kobe is better than Lebron. Both of them would never let someone destroyed them like that, specially no Shawn Marion or Jason Terry. A bench player destroyed Lebron in a finals game. That is just embarrasing.

How did those guys destroy him though? Their team defense stopped him from scoring in the 4th quarter sure, but damn the game has 3 other quarters before that. Do rebounds and assists and steals and blocks mean anything to you people?

[guy]

:oldlol: Bringing up the Blazers low IQ when the Heat beat the Thunder, who are clearly one of the lowest IQ teams ever in the Finals and mostly just succeeded off talent. Shit, teams in general nowadays have lower IQs in comparison to before.

[Greg Oden 50]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.

nice joke :applause:

[Soundwave]

The '98 Pacers and '96 Magic would beat this year's Spurs and definitely the Rose-less Bulls, Granger-less Pacers, etc. Everyone Miami beat was gimped this year and the Spurs are older than dirt.

People make a big fuss of the Lakers being older than the Bulls in '91, Magic was only 3 years older than Jordan, lol.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The '98 Pacers and '96 Magic would beat this year's Spurs and definitely the Rose-less Bulls, Granger-less Pacers, etc. Everyone Miami beat was gimped this year and the Spurs are older than dirt.

People make a big fuss of the Lakers being older than the Bulls in '91, Magic was only 3 years older than Jordan, lol.

LeBron won a title with Wade avg. 15ppg and Bosh 12ppg. Not to mention Wade was on one knee. So injuries only count for teams not called the Heat, right? Nice agenda :oldlol:

[Greg Oden 50]

LeBron won a title with Wade avg. 15ppg and Bosh 12ppg. Not to mention Wade was on one knee. So injuries only count for teams not called the Heat, right? Nice agenda :oldlol:
retard :facepalm

[diamenz]

LeBron won a title with Wade avg. 15ppg and Bosh 12ppg. Not to mention Wade was on one knee. So injuries only count for teams not called the Heat, right? Nice agenda :oldlol:

hey, why didn't you mention payton in your op?

[SilkkTheShocker]

hey, why didn't you mention payton in your op?

Payton is legit. Still doesn't mean the team wasn't overrated. Spurs/OKC both would beat them

[diamenz]

Payton is legit. Still doesn't mean the team wasn't overrated. Spurs/OKC both would beat them

you're that confident that they would, eh? what makes you that confident? the sonics were a very good team all around. you talk about people and their nostalgia, but it seems to me you're just caught up in the current era because your favorite player is winning it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Defensively? Absolutely.

96 Sonics 102.1
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

[Sarcastic]

This is why everybody call the 90s a weak era. Jordan couldn't win shit in the superior 80s. :facepalm

Lebron couldn't win in the superior 2000s. He had to wait till the 2010s when Duncan and Kobe got old.

[tpols]

Funny how OP discredits Lakers as past their prime, and Suns as no one in the middle..

And then doesnt say shit for Spurs who are clearly past their prime, and OKC who had no big man presence.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Funny how OP discredits Lakers as past their prime, and Suns as no one in the middle..

And then doesnt say shit for Spurs who are clearly past their prime, and OKC who had no big man presence.

OKC has 3 future hall of famers on their team. Which team did Jordan play in the Finals had 3 hall of fame players? Spurs have 3 future hall of fame players and Duncan was arguably the best PF in the league last season. tpols, we have debated many times in the past and it always ends up with me taking my belt off and beating you like a stepchild. Maybe you should sit this one out :oldlol:

[tpols]

OKC has 3 future hall of famers on their team. Which team did Jordan play in the Finals had 3 hall of fame players? Spurs have 3 future hall of fame players and Duncan was arguably the best PF in the league last season. tpols, we have debated many times in the past and it always ends up with me taking my belt off and beating you like a stepchild. Maybe you should sit this one out :oldlol:
And the Heat had 3 HOFs on their side too.

Did Jordan have 2 other HOFs on his team in 93?

Nope.:oldlol:

Not to mention Suns had the best player out of the whole bunch in Charles Barkley.

And lol at your backtracking with the Spurs.. they were old and past their prime. Magic was arguably the best point guard in the league in 91 as well.

[MaxFly]

Every team Jordan played was watered down. The Bulls were the only team that had 2 MVP caliber players.

The only actual competition was Shaqs Magic. In 1995 the Magic absolutely ****ed them. Bulls beat them in 96 since they added another elite hall of fame player in Dennis Rodman while the Magic didn't have Horace Grant. Bulls only win when they have more hall of famers.

Jordan didnt't win 6 rings because of his individual greatness. He won them because his team had the most overwhelming talent in the league and noone was close.

LeBrons championships are much more impressive than any of Jordans. LeBron has to do everything at an elite level for Miami to win playoff games. Jordan just has to worry about scoring.

:facepalm How did LeBron find his way into this?

[guy]

OKC has 3 future hall of famers on their team. Which team did Jordan play in the Finals had 3 hall of fame players? Spurs have 3 future hall of fame players and Duncan was arguably the best PF in the league last season. tpols, we have debated many times in the past and it always ends up with me taking my belt off and beating you like a stepchild. Maybe you should sit this one out :oldlol:

I love how having "future HOFer" Manu Ginobili in 2013 is actually supposed to mean alot :oldlol: How about mentioning Lebron has Finals MVP & future HOFer Dwyane Wade then?

And James Harden wasn't a "future HOFer" last year, and even if you consider him on that level, he could **** up the rest of his career like someone like Shawn Kemp did who was clearly playing at a HOF level at that time, and you wouldn't be calling him a HOFer 15-20 years from now.

Misleading, stupid biased argument.

[tpols]

Actually I have to correct myself.

Heat had 4 HOFs on their team..

Forgot about Ray Ray:oldlol:

[MaxFly]

Defensively? Absolutely.

96 Sonics 102.1
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

I think that while those numbers don't tell the whole story (the '96 Sonics did a decent job), yes... these were not very good defensive teams.

[Marchesk]

OKC has 3 future hall of famers on their team. Which team did Jordan play in the Finals had 3 hall of fame players?

Who is the third going to be? Durant is on pace, assuming nothing happens to him. It's a bit premature to say that about Westbrook. OKC was young and inexperienced a year ago, and they have no post game or dominate big of note.

Anyway, that 96 Orlando team Chicago swept out the playoffs would give Miami serious trouble. So would the Knicks from that season. What is Miami going to do with Shaq or Ewing/Oakley? If a 49 win Pacers team with crappy ball handling can take the Heat to seven, then I'd hate to think what Shaq and Penny would have done.

And Kemp would just own Bosh, Birdman, Haslem and any other player Spolstra threw at him. Rodman had some trouble with Kemp's quickness and athleticism in the finals. You think Miami has anyone who could handle Kemp?

[juju151111]

Defensively? Absolutely.

96 Sonics 102.1
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7
Those defensive rating thing is stupid. According to it The bulls are a better defensive team when Pippen is out for half the season and Rodman playing like a joke.

[Dengness9]

Actually I have to correct myself.

Heat had 4 HOFs on their team..

Forgot about Ray Ray:oldlol:


And in 2-3 post you like so many in this thread made Sillk look like the ****in' grade schooler he is.

His past prime and no one in the middle arguments are getting shitted on and rightfully so.

Sillk you don't beat anyone with a belt except for your mom. Shut up.

Ish's number 1 fakkit getting the wrath of the knowledgable posters!

[Kurosawa0]

It's actually true. The only team you could argue was probably the 1993 Suns, but that was a team that had never been to the Finals like San Antonio or had the depth of talent like OKC.

I love MJ too, but anyone trying to argue that the Bulls beat really great teams in the Finals is kidding themselves.

San Antonio is the really obvious one. Jordan never faced a team that good in his title runs. Not even close.

[Marchesk]

It's interesting that the 72 win Bulls team only had three players average double digits for the regular and post season play. Pippen didn't even average 20 ppg. You had Luc Longley as the fourth leading scorer on that team (well Ron Harper was in the playoffs). In the playoffs, Pippen only averagde 16.9 on .390 shooting. Pippen was excellent all-around, but wow did Jordan have the scoring load on his shoulders.

[longtime lurker]

If Jeff really wanted to improve this board he'd banning trolls like Silk, Tony Montana and Trollsmasher.

Oh and Lebron is currently winning titles in one of the NBA's weakest eras.

[Marchesk]

San Antonio is the really obvious one. Jordan never faced a team that good in his title runs. Not even close.

I don't know. The Jazz were a very good team. That Sonics team was pretty good too. They owned Houston, but kept getting upset in the first round when Hakeem got his titles. And then they go and sign some big white stiff to a huge deal after losing to the Bulls, and Kemp isn't down with it. That and probably all the child support got to him.

[riseagainst]

No but the heats was
Spurs - old and slow
OKC - low IQ (westbrook)

this. :oldlol:

[KG215]

San Antonio is the really obvious one. Jordan never faced a team that good in his title runs. Not even close.
:facepalm

That wasn't the 2005 or 2007 Spurs.

[Kurosawa0]

:facepalm

That wasn't the 2005 or 2007 Spurs.

No, but it was still better than any of the teams Jordan faced in the Finals.

[Kurosawa0]

The Jazz were a very good team.

Other than maybe the 1991 Lakers, the Jazz were the worst of the teams Jordan faced.

[Doranku]

No, but it was still better than any of the teams Jordan faced in the Finals.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[riseagainst]

No, but it was still better than any of the teams Jordan faced in the Finals.

:roll:

never go full retard.

[KG215]

No, but it was still better than any of the teams Jordan faced in the Finals.
No, they weren't. And you even went far enough to say "not even close" which was even more ignorant.

[Kurosawa0]

No, they weren't. And you even went far enough to say "not even close" which was even more ignorant.

You had historic three point shooting, a HOF point guard, one of the ten best players ever in Duncan and one of the top 5 coaches in NBA history on that team. I'm sorry, but yeah, that's far better than anything Jordan saw in the Finals.

But hey, maybe you're just a big Karl Malone fan.

[AussieG]

Different eras. :facepalm

[Kurosawa0]

I know everyone has this big nostalgia for the Jordan era, but come on, the league is better now. It just is.

[KG215]

You had historic three point shooting, a HOF point guard, one of the ten best players ever in Duncan and one of the top 5 coaches in NBA history on that team. I'm sorry, but yeah, that's far better than anything Jordan saw in the Finals.

But hey, maybe you're just a big Karl Malone fan.
Just stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. This year's Spurs weren't better than every team Jordan beat in the Finals, and they certainly weren't "far better".

[KG215]

I know everyone has this big nostalgia for the Jordan era, but come on, the league is better now. It just is.
It's not a nostalgia thing. It's a "you're f***king retarded" thing.

[Frozen1]

It's sad to see lebron's stans taking the merit of others to praise their boy.

The same argument can be used for lebron.

2012: Young and inexperienced team, lebron being guarded by his summer practice teamate.

2013: Old ass spurs. Past prime manu ginobili and tim duncan.

[Kurosawa0]

Just stop it. You're embarrassing yourself. This year's Spurs weren't better than every team Jordan beat in the Finals, and they certainly weren't "far better".

Um, how about you offer up an argument instead of throwing around insults? From what I've seen from you on here before, that's all the brainpower you have.

[tpols]

Spurs were never considered an all time great team before they met the Heat in the Finals.. they were the regular season overachievers who always fell short in the playoffs.

A major injury is what allowed them to even make it to the Finals in the first place as OKC would have been clear favorites in a rematch.

This is nothing but revisionist history.

Spurs did step up their game in the Finals though.. they fed off Lebron being scared to shoot in those first 5-6 games.

[guy]

You had historic three point shooting, a HOF point guard, one of the ten best players ever in Duncan and one of the top 5 coaches in NBA history on that team. I'm sorry, but yeah, that's far better than anything Jordan saw in the Finals.

But hey, maybe you're just a big Karl Malone fan.

Tim Duncan being one of the best players ever career-wise has nothing to do with Tim Duncan in 2013. Karl Malone in 1997 and 1998 is clearly a better player then Tim Duncan in 2013.

You can't just look at a team and base how good they are on the total resumes of each player. Its one of the dumbest arguments people use here.

[Kurosawa0]

It's sad to see lebron's stans taking the merit of others to praise their boy.

It's not really about LeBron. You could argue the same about that the 2008 Celtics and 2004 Pistons teams that beat the Lakers.

The teams Jordan faced were better than like the 2003 Nets, but it'd be a stretch to say any were "great" teams. Most were just pretty good. The 1993 Suns team to me has the best argument out of the bunch.

[KG215]

Um, how about you offer up an argument instead of throwing around insults? From what I've seen from you on here before, that's all the brainpower you have.
I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. I refuse to argue with posters who throw out phrases like "it's not even close" because it's clear they've got an agenda or just really incredibly stupid. I've debated this very topic before with a LeBron fan boy saying the same type of things.

I will say this, just because Duncan is a top 10 player all-time, it doesn't mean he was that caliber of player in the 2013 Finals. That version of Duncan (2013) was worse than both versions of Karl Malone that Jordan beat.

[Kurosawa0]

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you.

That's fine. I'm going to put you on ignore. I really don't see the point of posting with someone who can only summon up the brilliance of calling someone else a "retard". Maybe when you graduate from middle school you'll realize that adults don't act that way.

[KG215]

That's fine. I'm going to put you on ignore. I really don't see the point of posting with someone who can only summon up the brilliance of calling someone else a "retard". Maybe when you graduate from middle school you'll realize that adults don't act that way.
If you presented arguments that weren't so damn ignorant then I would actually debate/argue with you. But you don't. There's a reason everyone else is laughing at you and/or disagreeing with you. You're just completely, and totally way off on this one.

[diamenz]

I know everyone has this big nostalgia for the Jordan era, but come on, the league is better now. It just is.

it's more exciting, that's all. imo it's nothing but an cluster**** of athleticism through perimeter players. that's just my opinion - i don't care for today's league much, nor the entitled punks who play in it.

[Mr Exlax]

I know everyone has this big nostalgia for the Jordan era, but come on, the league is better now. It just is.

Players were more skilled back then.
Players now are more athletic (Besides the Center position)

[LeBird]

It's actually true. The only team you could argue was probably the 1993 Suns, but that was a team that had never been to the Finals like San Antonio or had the depth of talent like OKC.

I love MJ too, but anyone trying to argue that the Bulls beat really great teams in the Finals is kidding themselves.

San Antonio is the really obvious one. Jordan never faced a team that good in his title runs. Not even close.

Apart from the "not even close" remark, I'd agree.

[Kurosawa0]

Apart from the "not even close" remark, I'd agree.

I just really never saw any of those teams that either were as smart, well-coached, shot it so well... this Spurs team was really good.

[Optimus Prime]

Lebrons Heat teams would be swept by all of Jordans Finals opponents and it wouldn't even be close.

This thread and some of the trolls in it :facepalm

:kobe:

[Bandito]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3219a76870f74610ed8541235199ab3b/tumblr_mie97e0OgH1rahsoko1_500.png

[LeBird]

I just really never saw any of those teams that either were as smart, well-coached, shot it so well... this Spurs team was really good.

Add to that they were experienced and had an already ingrained winning mentality. I find in basketball circles these things are very undervalued. Spurs were less than 30 seconds from a title - and they would have deserved it, fully.

[Marchesk]

I know everyone has this big nostalgia for the Jordan era, but come on, the league is better now. It just is.

It's not better in the paint.

[Leviathon1121]

I think we are forgetting that the Spurs were able to deploy the strategy of playing off Lebron 10 feet because he can't hit a jump shot. Not sure how that would have worked against the Bulls, but it was a MAJOR factor in how the Spurs were able to make that series last 7 games.

[RRR3]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/wizthree420.jpg
The guy in the middle dropped 60 on prime Kobe :lol :roll: :roll:

[fpliii]

According to my files (offense / defense):

Jordan's Finals Opponents

91 LAL +4.1% / -2.7%
92 POR +3.1% / -3.8%
93 PHO +5.1% / -1.2%
96 SEA +2.5% / -5.3%
97 UTA +6.7% / -2.5%
98 UTA +7.6% / +0.4%

LeBron's Finals Opponents

07 SAS +2.7% / -6.3%
11 DAL +2.4% / -2.1%
12 OKC +5.2% / -1.4%
13 SAS +2.4% / -4.1%

97 UTA and 07 SAS are clearly the best of the bunch, followed by 96 SEA after a decent gap, with the rest of the teams (except for 11 DAL) roughly the same after another gap. Obviously injuries, rotation changes, experience, good form, marchups, and luck play a part in their playoff runs, but I think that matchesthe eye test closely enough.

Haven't looked at ECF opponents yet. If I have a chance later on I will.

[KG215]

How anyone can think the 2013 Spurs were better than all 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals is beyond me. How anyone (kurosawa) can think "it's not even close" is even more baffling.

2013 Spurs: 58-24 | 6.67 SRS (3rd) | 108.3 ORtg (7th) | 101.6 DRtg (3rd)


1991 Lakers: 58-24 | 6.73 SRS (3rd) | 112.1 ORtg (5th) | 105.0 DRtg (5th)

1992 Blazers: 57-25 | 6.94 SRS (2nd) | 111.4 ORtg (7th) | 104.2 DRtg (3rd)

1993 Suns: 62-20 | 6.27 SRS (3rd) | 113.3 ORtg (1st) | 106.7 DRtg (9th)

1996 Sonics: 64-18 | 7.39 SRS (2nd) | 110.3 ORtg (8th) | 102.1 DRtg (2nd)

1997 Jazz: 64-18 | 7.97 SRS (2nd) | 113.6 ORtg (2nd) | 104.0 DRtg (9th)

1998 Jazz: 62-20 | 5.73 SRS (5th) | 112.7 ORtg (1st) | 105.4 DRtg (17th)

[RRR3]

How anyone can think the 2013 Spurs were better than all 6 teams Jordan beat in the Finals is beyond me. How anyone (kurosawa) can think "it's not even close" is even more baffling.

2013 Spurs: 58-24 | 6.67 SRS (3rd) | 108.3 ORtg (7th) | 101.6 DRtg (3rd)


1991 Lakers: 58-24 | 6.73 SRS (3rd) | 112.1 ORtg (5th) | 105.0 DRtg (5th)

1992 Blazers: 57-25 | 6.94 SRS (2nd) | 111.4 ORtg (7th) | 104.2 DRtg (3rd)

1993 Suns: 62-20 | 6.27 SRS (3rd) | 113.3 ORtg (1st) | 106.7 DRtg (9th)

1996 Sonics: 64-18 | 7.39 SRS (2nd) | 110.3 ORtg (8th) | 102.1 DRtg (2nd)

1997 Jazz: 64-18 | 7.97 SRS (2nd) | 113.6 ORtg (2nd) | 104.0 DRtg (9th)

1998 Jazz: 62-20 | 5.73 SRS (5th) | 112.7 ORtg (1st) | 105.4 DRtg (17th)
Not agreeing or disagreeing since I didn't see any of those MJ series, but be careful YMF doesn't see you using his patented DRtg argument.

[LeBird]

@ KG215

All the above are lazy and flawed ways to judge teams. Especially since they're reliant on the standard of the league as they played them.

[fpliii]

Jordan's ECF Opponents

89 DET +2.9% / -3.0%
90 DET +1.7% / -4.4%
91 DET +0.3% / -3.1%
92 CLE +5.5% / 0.0%
93 NYK -1.9% / -7.7%
96 ORL +5.1% / -0.7%
97 MIA +0.1% / -5.8%
98 IND +3.3% / -3.4%

LeBron's ECF Opponents

07 DET +2.4% / -2.2%
09 ORL +0.9% / -6.0%
11 CHI +1.0% / -6.7%
12 BOS -3.5% / -6.1%
13 IND -1.5% / -5.9%

Not a huge difference, but on average LeBron's opponents have been better defensive teams (93 NYK were the best) while MJ's have been more potent offensively (92 CLE and 96 ORL being the two top teams).

[longtime lurker]

Spurs were never considered an all time great team before they met the Heat in the Finals.. they were the regular season overachievers who always fell short in the playoffs.

A major injury is what allowed them to even make it to the Finals in the first place as OKC would have been clear favorites in a rematch.

This is nothing but revisionist history.

Spurs did step up their game in the Finals though.. they fed off Lebron being scared to shoot in those first 5-6 games.

No teams the Heat have faced have been considered all time greats. And their competition in the East is pretty weak. Face it Lebron is winning in a weak era.

[KG215]

@ KG215

All the above are lazy and flawed ways to judge teams. Especially since they're reliant on the standard of the league as they played them.
I'm just using their records, SRS, etc. to put the some statistical evidence/context out there. I don't like comparing things like DRtg and ORtg across eras, so I should've used their league rank and their +/- from the league average in those categories like fpliii. Kurosawa says it's not even close, which is absurd. Jordan beat some damn good teams in the Finals.

You use the ingrained winning culture argument which, I agree, is important, but it still doesn't change the fact that 2/3 of the players that were a big part of that winning culture 6-10 years ago were 35+ years old and well past their prime and the third was playing on a bum leg. They weren't the same players and that wasn't a great team the Heat beat in the Finals. It was a very, VERY good one, but are they better than all 6 teams the Bulls beat in the Finals? That really seems like a stretch.

[fpliii]

I'm just using their records, SRS, etc. to put the some statistical evidence/context out there. I don't like comparing things like DRtg and ORtg across eras, so I should've used their league rank and their +/- from the league average in those categories like fpliii. Kurosawa says it's not even close, which is absurd. Jordan beat some damn good teams in the Finals.

You use the ingrained winning culture argument which, I agree, is important, but it still doesn't change the fact that 2/3 of the players that were a big part of that winning culture 6-10 years ago were 35+ years old and well past their prime and the third was playing on a bum leg. They weren't the same players and that wasn't a great team the Heat beat in the Finals. It was a very, VERY good one, but are they better than all 6 teams the Bulls beat in the Finals? That really seems like a stretch.

Slight clarification - I used % difference from league mean (with that team removed) rather than pure differential. So for a given team:

ORTG_%'=(ORTG_team - ORTG_league')/ORTG_league'

where ORTG_league' is the mean of the rest of the teams in the league. It probably seems unnecessary, but it's useful in identifying outliers. Same calculation for DRTG_%'.

Still imperfect, but it's the best measure at the moment IMO. Z scores are great, but I need to perform extensive outlier analysis (and possible removal) on those to handle noise to make them more robust.

[TonyMontana]

2013 San Antonio Spurs > any team Jordan played in the Finals

Did Jordan even have to play a team with a legit 7 footer in the Finals? Lol @ the guy that said Karl Malone was better than Tim Duncan. Just no. Tim Duncan does the most important thing in basketball. Protects the rim. On top of that he also gets 20 PPG on the other end and rebounds at an extremely high level. There's a reason Duncan has 4 rings and Malone has 0.

Malone didn't have the length to be the defender Duncan is.

With the way defenses are set up you can have that rim protector just sit near the rim and play stars like LeBron 1 on 5. With Jordan you could only play him 1 on 1, much harder to contain star players.

The Spurs also had a second MVP caliber player in Tony Parker. Kawhi Leonard is also a better player than anyone on the Heat team not named LeBron. When you look at the series as a whole SA EASILY had 2 of the top 3 players and I'd argue 3 of the top 4. Then you look at their sideline and you see Greg Popovich who is on the Mt Rushmore of NBA Head coaches.

The NBA is far from watered down. The game is just becoming more team oriented these days since you can contain talent better by throwing zone defenses and multiple defenders at them. The game lacks the big superstar names that simpletons need to identify with. People see Patrick Ewings name on a roster and ijzz their pants. Who else did they have? Noone Contenders these days have 4-5 guys that are borderline stars.

When one guy is that much better than everyone else(LeBron James) it gives kids this illusion. Sorry, but the reason LeBron is the best is because hes that good. You would be lucky to find 5 players in the modern era that were ever playing at a level as high as he is. :oldlol:

[guy]

2013 San Antonio Spurs > any team Jordan played in the Finals

Did Jordan even have to play a team with a legit 7 footer in the Finals? Lol @ the guy that said Karl Malone was better than Tim Duncan. Just no. Tim Duncan does the most important thing in basketball. Protects the rim. On top of that he also gets 20 PPG on the other end and rebounds at an extremely high level. There's a reason Duncan has 4 rings and Malone has 0.

Malone didn't have the length to be the defender Duncan is.

With the way defenses are set up you can have that rim protector just sit near the rim and play stars like LeBron 1 on 5. With Jordan you could only play him 1 on 1, much harder to contain star players.

The Spurs also had a second MVP caliber player in Tony Parker. Kawhi Leonard is also a better player than anyone on the Heat team not named LeBron. When you look at the series as a whole SA EASILY had 2 of the top 3 players and I'd argue 3 of the top 4. Then you look at their sideline and you see Greg Popovich who is on the Mt Rushmore of NBA Head coaches.

The NBA is far from watered down. The game is just becoming more team oriented these days since you can contain talent better by throwing zone defenses and multiple defenders at them. The game lacks the big superstar names that simpletons need to identify with.

When one guy is that much better than everyone else(LeBron James) it gives kids this illusion. Sorry, but the reason LeBron is the best is because hes that good. You would be lucky to find 5 players in the modern era that were ever playing at a level as high as he is. :oldlol:

What does Tim Duncan winning 4 championships over 5 years ago before 33 years old have to do with how good he is today at 37 years old?

[TonyMontana]

What does Tim Duncan winning 4 championships over 5 years ago before 33 years old have to do with how good he is today at 37 years old?

Tim Duncan per 36 stats 2013
21.3 PPG 11.9 RPG3.2 BPG

Tim Duncan per 36 stats 2003
21.3 PPG 11.8 RPG 2.7 BPG

He is an identical player to 2003 what people consider his prime.

You can talk shit about his age, but this guy was 1st Team All NBA for a reason. He is ****ing good. 3rd Best player in the league after LeBron/Durant.

He is better than Malone. He might not score as many points, but he is 5 times the defender Malone was. When Duncan is on the court he is effecting EVERY shot oppenents take inside the paint, the area where the game is won.

[KG215]

Ahh yes, the brilliant "Duncan's per-36 numbers are the same in 2013 as they were in 2003, so 2013 Duncan = 2003 Duncan" argument.

[guy]

Tim Duncan per 36 stats 2013
21.3 PPG 11.9 RPG3.2 BPG

Tim Duncan per 36 stats 2003
21.3 PPG 11.8 RPG 2.7 BPG

He is an identical player to 2003 what people consider his prime.

You can talk shit about his age, but this guy was 1st Team All NBA for a reason. He is ****ing good. 3rd Best player in the league after LeBron/Durant.

He is better than Malone. He might not score as many points, but he is 5 times the defender Malone was. When Duncan is on the court he is effecting EVERY shot oppenents take inside the paint, the area where the game is won.

:oldlol: You know why per 36 minutes don't matter? Because if Duncan was playing 36 minutes regularly, he would've been out for the season by March.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Jeff told me to let you all know this is the new "Post the dumbest things you've heard said on InsideHoops" thread.

[Calabis]

Lakers- Old and past prime
Blazers- Low IQ team that had history of choking
Suns-Nothing in the middle
Sonics - Shawn no better than Blake Griffin. Rodman real Finals MVP
Jazz - No bench and there 3rd and 4th options were Hornacek and Russell. Stockton past prime.

2012 OKC and 2013 Spurs would beat all of those teams.

:facepalm

Past their prime...wtf was Jordan 25???

Prime Lebron with prime Wade and Bosh loses to 32 year old Dirk, 33 year old Terry, 32 year old Marion and a 38 year old Kidd....:biggums:

[riseagainst]

:facepalm

Past their prime...wtf was Jordan 25???

Prime Lebron with prime Wade and Bosh loses to 32 year old Dirk, 33 year old Terry, 32 year old Marion and a 38 year old Kidd....:biggums:

:oldlol:
:applause:

[Calabis]

:oldlol: You know why per 36 minutes don't matter? Because if Duncan was playing 36 minutes regularly, he would've been out for the season by March.

Yeah that moron talking about Duncans per 36 and considers him the same player, but Malone avg 27.4 ppg, 9.9 Reb on 55%(league MVP) is garbage past his prime in 97 and in 98 all he did was 27/10/53%...what a scrub.

[DJ Leon Smith]

:facepalm

Past their prime...wtf was Jordan 25???

Prime Lebron with prime Wade and Bosh loses to 32 year old Dirk, 33 year old Terry, 32 year old Marion and a 38 year old Kidd....:biggums:

Yep. Also the "past their prime" Lakers had Magic who was one year removed from being MVP. LeBron lost to Dirk in the Finals four years after he was named MVP.

So therefore OP admits that LeBron lost to a team four times past their prime than Jordan.

[PickernRoller]

Yeah that moron talking about Duncans per 36 and considers him the same player, but Malone avg 27.4 ppg, 9.9 Reb on 55%(league MVP) is garbage past his prime in 97 and in 98 all he did was 27/10/53%...what a scrub.

Malone and Stockton would mop the floor with the Heat. Arguing with fools here. It was a troll thread anyway.

[Charlie Sheen]

[QUOTE=andgar923]If Bron played in the 80s he wouldn't have had Penny, MJ, or Magic to model his game after for starters. So he wouldn't have had the foundation of what makes him special. He would've been an entirely different player.

We also can't change his mindset.

So even if he grew up in a different era, he's still mentally weak plain and simple, something that shouldn't even be debated. Let me take that back

[riseagainst]

FACT? Where were you in 2006 when the cavs ended the Pistons reign atop the East? Those 00's Pistons. The same team people have as the greatest defense of all time.

nah, 06 pistons were still a good defensive team, but nothing compared to 04 and 05.

[Charlie Sheen]

nah, 06 pistons were still a good defensive team, but nothing compared to 04 and 05.

not gonna pretend to be an expert arguing what level they were at in 06. :cheers: i'll gladly accept your correction.

point is, guy i quoted making some case about lebron never rising up to the challenge of tough very strong team defense. and that just is not reality.

[andgar923]

not gonna pretend to be an expert arguing what level they were at in 06. :cheers: i'll gladly accept your correction.

point is, guy i quoted making some case about lebron never rising up to the challenge of tough very strong team defense. and that just is not reality.

He struggled vs the Bulls.
He struggled vs the Pacers.

Yes he's won, but he himself struggled noticeably.

Hell, he struggled vs an aging Bowen

[Yao Ming's Foot]

[QUOTE=andgar923]He struggled vs the Bulls.
He struggled vs the Pacers.

Yes he's won, but he himself struggled noticeably.

Hell, he struggled vs an aging Bowen

[juju151111]

Jordan struggled against statistically good defenses (not overhyped hackers) too. :confusedshrug:

MJ vs 97 Heat

http://i.imgur.com/SUxvy.png

MJ vs 93 Knicks

http://i.imgur.com/tPFxI.png
Michael was injured during the one vs the Knicks. Other one I agree with.

[Calabis]

Michael was injured during the one vs the Knicks. Other one I agree with.

And he was 33 vs the Heat :banghead:

Comparing a guy in his prime to a dude well past it, is comical.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And he was 33 vs the Heat :banghead:

Comparing a guy in his prime to a dude well past it, is comical.

Sorry it took so long in Jordan's career for him to actually face a statistically elite defense (sub 1.0 points per possession allowed) in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

[Young X]

32/6/7/2.5 stls.

52 TS%.

Only 2.3 TO.

54 point game.

Triple double.

While playing through a wrist injury.

= one of Jordan's worst series.

GOAT.

[juju151111]

Sorry it took so long in Jordan's career for him to actually face a statistically elite defense (sub 1.0 points per possession allowed) in the playoffs :confusedshrug:
None of that matters. Drtg is retarded anyways and more based on pace. The 97 bulls have a lower Drtg then the 98 bulls who were injure prone the whole year and so called best defender missed half the season. What matters is how the certain team prepares for that player in the playoffs. Pippen played better in 93 against the Knicks then 92. If you watch the series the only difference was xman was traded and he gave Pippen fits. Why is Pippen playing better and the defense is better. Pippen didn't have to guard xman anymore. N they had nobody to guard him. The defensive stredgy used against Mj in 92 and 3 were the samething. Only difference was Mj missing shots he normally made the year before.

[Calabis]

Sorry it took so long in Jordan's career for him to actually face a statistically elite defense (sub 1.0 points per possession allowed) in the playoffs :confusedshrug:

Dude shut up with your D Rating crap....its tired and old

Go look at Kobe's win shares another meaningless stat

[Optimus Prime]

Why actually watch basketball games when you can pull out random useless stats to try and validate your nonsensical viewpoint?!

This thread :facepalm :banghead:

:kobe:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dude shut up with your D Rating crap....its tired and old

Go look at Kobe's win shares another meaningless stat

Tell him to look at Kobe and Jordan's PER (it adjusts for pace :oldlol:)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:roll:

Jordan mythologists love stats until you point out the stats of the defenses he faced.

[KG215]

Dude shut up with your D Rating crap....its tired and old

Go look at Kobe's win shares another meaningless stat


Tell him to look at Kobe and Jordan's PER (it adjusts for pace :oldlol:)
:no:

No no, those other advanced stats don't fit his agenda.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:no:

No no, those other advanced stats don't fit his agenda.

What do win shares or PER have to do with analysing the strength of the defenses Jordan faced in the Finals?

There is not a single team defensive metric or statistic that puts Jordan's Finals opponents in the same ballpark as Kobe's defensively.

:confusedshrug:

[KG215]

What do win shares or PER have to do with analysing the strength of the defenses Jordan faced in the Finals?

There is not a single team defensive metric or statistic that puts Jordan's Finals opponents in the same ballpark as Kobe's defensively.

:confusedshrug:
My bad, you're right.

Kobe > Jordan

[Young X]

What do win shares or PER have to do with analysing the strength of the defenses Jordan faced in the Finals?

There is not a single team defensive metric or statistic that puts Jordan's Finals opponents in the same ballpark as Kobe's defensively.

:confusedshrug:
Why did the '97 Jazz statistically play better defense in the Finals than the '08 or '10 Celtics?

[juju151111]

What do win shares or PER have to do with analysing the strength of the defenses Jordan faced in the Finals?

There is not a single team defensive metric or statistic that puts Jordan's Finals opponents in the same ballpark as Kobe's defensively.

:confusedshrug:
None of those defensive stats show how much pressure those defensive team put on each player.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why did the '97 Jazz statistically play better defense in the Finals than the '08 or '10 Celtics?

Small sample size

[Young X]

Small sample size
So you would rather use REGULAR SEASON defensive numbers to compare finals performances than comparing the defenses they actually faced in the finals? Sounds smart.


dat agenda

[juju151111]

Small sample size
Well it is the finals where the focus is top notch and intensity. Bulls were I think top 3 in offense in 97. They shouldn't of been able to stop them. In fact I'm surprised Mj didn't shoot 35% since the Jazz clearly step their game up in the finals:applause:
Edit: Bulls were number 1 in offense my mistake

[Yao Ming's Foot]

None of those defensive stats show how much pressure those defensive team put on each player.

True. Jordan and Lebron had guys like Wade and Pippen to create from the perimeter or shooters like Kerr and Allen to space the floor. Kobe's defensive opponents did not have to pay Artest,Ariza or Fisher, Sasha the same attention. Good point.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you would rather use REGULAR SEASON defensive numbers to compare finals performances than comparing the defenses they actually faced in the finals? Sounds smart.


dat agenda

Yeah a larger sample size gives us a more accurate representation of their effectiveness at limiting efficient scoring. Are you under the impression that focusing only the postseason will change reality? (Hint: the 04 Pistons had a defensive rating of 92.0 in the playoffs)

[Young X]

Yeah a larger sample size gives us a more accurate representation of their effectiveness at limiting efficient scoring. Are you under the impression that focusing only the postseason will change reality? (Hint: the 04 Pistons had a defensive rating of 92.0 in the playoffs)
I understand that but we're not comparing their regular season performances, we're comparing their performances in the finals. How they played defense in the regular season is IRRELEVENT to how they played defense in the finals (different players, matchups, etc...).

[juju151111]

True. Jordan and Lebron had guys like Wade and Pippen to create from the perimeter or shooters like Kerr and Allen to space the floor. Kobe's defensive opponents did not have to pay Artest,Ariza or Fisher, Sasha the same attention. Good point.
Pau gasol had one of the best playoff run alongside Kobe to which some people post stats to show that very comparable to Kobe. Some even saying slightly better(I dont agree). Pay gasol in his prime could knock the midrange jumper down and was a great p/r player and passer. Along with Lamar Odom Kobe had plenty of help. Kobe has never won a playoffs series without a lot of help. Mj beat the Cavs in 88 by himself and no other all-star and then took the 88 Pistins to 6 games.

[Young X]

'97 Jazz held the Bulls to 88 pts on 43% in the finals
'08 Celtics held the Lakers to 94 pts on 44% in the finals
'13 Spurs held the Heat to 97 pts on 46% in the finals

Jordan vs '97 Jazz: 32 pts on 46%
Kobe vs. '08 Celtics: 26 pts on 41%
Lebron vs. '13 Spurs: 25 pts on 45%

I thought Jordan faced weak defenses tho?

F*ggots.

:oldlol:

[juju151111]

Yeah a larger sample size gives us a more accurate representation of their effectiveness at limiting efficient scoring. Are you under the impression that focusing only the postseason will change reality? (Hint: the 04 Pistons had a defensive rating of 92.0 in the playoffs)
We are talking about playoffs and finals. Who cares wat they did in the RS? The fact is Jerry had them playing top notch defense against the #1 offense in the finals.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I understand that but we're not comparing their regular season performances, we're comparing their performances in the finals. How they played defense in the regular season is IRRELEVENT to how they played defense in the finals.

If we only look at the Finals defensive stats there is going to be an even worse discrepancy. The Bulls torched those defenses. They are going to have poor defensive stats for those few games.:confusedshrug:

You are better off showing me some youtube clips of teams fouling hard and pretending thats great defense.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

'97 Jazz held the Bulls to 88 pts on 43% in the finals
'08 Celtics held the Lakers to 94 pts on 44% in the finals
'13 Spurs held the Heat to 97 pts on 46% in the finals

Jordan vs '97 Jazz: 32 pts on 46%
Kobe vs. '08 Celtics: 26 pts on 41%
Lebron vs. '13 Spurs: 25 pts on 45%

I thought Jordan faced weak defenses tho?

F*ggots.

:oldlol:

BULLY

[juju151111]

If we only look at the Finals defensive stats there is going to be an even worse discrepancy. The Bulls torched those defenses. They are going to have poor defensive stats for those few games.:confusedshrug:

You are better off showing me some youtube clips of teams fouling hard and pretending thats great defense.
Like I said before those defensive stats don't show how much pressure was on the players or factors. If you look at stats you would think LJ was being guarded by god himself in 2011 against the mavs. In reality watching the game shows you a mental midget breakdown by LJ. JJ bea was guarding him and he couldn't score sometimes and passing up shots. The Mavs wasn't some all-time great team defensively. They played him one on one with help defense. Look at the spurs they decided to leave him open the whole series. He was having ahhorrible series till game 7. The only thing that matters is how much pressure/focus that team put on certain players and if they have the individuals to excute that plan. Kobe in 08 against the Celtics was played with more physically and pressure then LJ did against the spurs.

[Greg Oden 50]

Small sample size

Idiot back :facepalm :facepalm

[Calabis]

So you would rather use REGULAR SEASON defensive numbers to compare finals performances than comparing the defenses they actually faced in the finals? Sounds smart.


dat agenda

LMAO!!! He said small sample.....so Jordan faced a better defensive team in the finals...let me say this again....better rating in the finals, according to DRating. Better then his hero did(one of the ones he claims is the greatest defenses) and his response is small sample size? :wtf: What does the regular season have to do with the Finals???

[RoundMoundOfReb]

[QUOTE=andgar923]He struggled vs the Bulls.
He struggled vs the Pacers.

Yes he's won, but he himself struggled noticeably.

Hell, he struggled vs an aging Bowen

[Vragrant]

It's going to be soooooooooooo funny watching Kobe-stans bend over LeBron stans next summer when the Heat fail to threepeat. It's going to be vicious.

I actually never thought about this.:oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

I love picking the Sonics in NBA Live 96 because they had a shit load of talent. They would beat up the 2013 spurs that's for sure. a

[deja vu]

This thread is ridiculous. So let's belittle everyone's Finals opponents because we have an agenda.

1999 - Knicks 8th seed.
2001 - 76ers with Iverson and a bunch of role players
2002 - Nets :facepalm
2003 - Nets again
2006 - Mavs choke
2007 - Cavs :facepalm
2009 - Magic :roll:
2012 - OKC young and low IQ iso-ball
2013 - old team

So basically the Lakers won 3 titles in the past decade playing against weak Eastern conference finalists. :roll:

Then the Heat got beat by the Mavs and won two titles playing low IQ team like OKC and the old-ass Spurs who almost beat them. :roll:

So yeah let's continue to belittle those Finalists because we all have a ****in' agenda. :lol

[LeBird]

I'm just using their records, SRS, etc. to put the some statistical evidence/context out there. I don't like comparing things like DRtg and ORtg across eras, so I should've used their league rank and their +/- from the league average in those categories like fpliii. Kurosawa says it's not even close, which is absurd. Jordan beat some damn good teams in the Finals.

You use the ingrained winning culture argument which, I agree, is important, but it still doesn't change the fact that 2/3 of the players that were a big part of that winning culture 6-10 years ago were 35+ years old and well past their prime and the third was playing on a bum leg. They weren't the same players and that wasn't a great team the Heat beat in the Finals. It was a very, VERY good one, but are they better than all 6 teams the Bulls beat in the Finals? That really seems like a stretch.

But the point is generally that Jordan played in a weak era/didn't beat 'great' finals teams so determining that x team was ranked 3rd or 9th offensively/defensively doesn't address or refute that point.

Your second para IMO doesn't address the fact that 1 of those 3 players (Duncan), although not at his peak, played a very good PS and was only 2nd to Lebron in the finals. His impact, despite not being at his peak, is increased due to the fact that the league in general, and Miami specifically, lack good men to counter. Therefore, that drop in his level you envision is made up by the fact that he is also not going against as good big men.

Ginobili didn't have a good PS; but the team in general (Kawhi, Green, Neal, Splitter) made up for it. And that's the crux of the matter: these players make up more than the sum of their parts and when they weren't making up the difference more often than not Duncan or Parker had big games. Again, they were 30 seconds away from beating a more talented/stacked team and winning another title...and they'd have fully deserved it.

[LeBird]

:oldlol: You know why per 36 minutes don't matter? Because if Duncan was playing 36 minutes regularly, he would've been out for the season by March.

But it matters because while they can rest him in many parts of most games which don't matter as much, they can play him fully in the finals. Only Kawhi Leonard on the Spurs played more minutes than Duncan...and only 1 more minute at that.