Wilt's final 5 NCAA Tournament Stats from 1957 season (MVP of NCAA tournament)

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-lAuEs5_cIuY/Ud7bwc8ePcI/AAAAAAAAEd0/cy0x0xSv2L8/s800/98717_lg.jpg

http://youtu.be/S8JuK2dVky0

@ 0:01
Colorado vs Kansas 3-9-57 (Big-7 Conference Final):
78-63 W
40pts 14reb 12blk 2a 1stl
14-17fg 12-17ft

@ 4:27
Southern Methodist vs Kansas 3-15-57 (Midwest Semi-Finals)
73-65 W
36pts 22reb 5blk 3a 0stl
14-26fg 8-13ft

@ 8:21
Oklahoma City vs Kansas 3-16-57 (Midwest Finals)
81-61 W
30pts 15reb 3blk 0a 0stl
8-17fg 14-22ft

@ 11:13
San Francisco University vs Kansas 3-22-57 (National Semi-Finals)
80-56 W
32pts 11reb 7blk 3a 0stl
12-22fg 8-11ft

@ 15:55
North Carolina vs Kansas 3-23-57 (National Finals)
54-53 L
23pts 14reb 6blk 1a 0stl
6-13fg 11-16ft

Final 5 1957 NCAA tournament game average:
32.2ppg (.568 fg% .670 ft%) 15.2rpg 6.6bpg 1.8apg 0.2spg

Got to be one of the great NCAA tournament runs of all time.

[Lakers2877]

Nice numbers but he's no Alcindor

[JimmyMcAdocious]

What a choke in the championship. That game went to triple OT, I think the tallest player on UNC was 6-9, and that's what he produces? Oh yeah, his team didn't even win.

Do you have the full game of the championship?

[CavaliersFTW]

What a choke in the championship. That game went to triple OT, I think the tallest player on UNC was 6-9, and that's what he produces? Oh yeah, his team didn't even win.
Have u watched the game? I have - Wilt doesn't choke, in fact he blocks 2 shots in the final minute, makes virtually every single one of his free throws, and makes several of his fg's in the OT. He actually lights up in the OT - looks angry from some hard fouls from NC. The final play of the game came down to his teammate feeding him the ball. His teammate threw a low pass instead of up into Wilt's arms and NCU stole the ball and threw it into the raftors.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Have u watched the game? I have - Wilt doesn't choke, in fact he blocks 2 shots in the final minute, makes virtually every single one of his free throws, and makes several of his fg's in the OT. He actually lights up in the OT - looks angry from some hard fouls from NC. The final play of the game came down to his teammate feeding him the ball. His teammate threw a low pass instead of up into Wilt's arms and NCU stole the ball and threw it into the raftors.

Upload it. All I see is 6 for 13 against a team he towers over and his worst statistical output of the tournament.

[CavaliersFTW]

Upload it. All I see is 6 for 13 against a team he towers over and his worst statistical output of the tournament.
I'm going to upload Wilt's highlights of every single one of these games. U know 6-9 is the same height as Dwight Howard, right?

Also, Wilt's stats are so low because that game was a painfully boring game of stall-ball. NCU took it to the extreme - and it paid off. Almost half of the footage is just their team holding the ball - and they had decent ball handlers because they weren't turning it over. Wilt actually leaves the paint and is guarding guys 35 feet out to try and steal the ball a few times. Doesn't work though. They also used a box and 1 zone on Wilt most of the game. It was literally 4 on 1 so his teammates could hardly get him the ball.

The full game is on YT... I'm only going to be uploading highlights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z_40VjH1Hk

Go ahead and point out the parts where Wilt "chokes" - good luck finding them though. It's just a game of stall ball, with Wilt standing in the middle waiting for the ball to come his way and fending off 4 guys once he does. Wilt was 11 for 16 from the free throw line that game. He was at the line a lot.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

I'm well aware of the game and particularly that UNC roster. I have read enough about it over the years to understand what happens and seen random, short, clips. It's been a while, tho. Pretty sure they are making a movie of it as well.

I just don't understand how this guy can enter the NBA and teams can't do shit to stop him. But against college kids in the biggest game of his life to that point, he has a very mediocre game (by Wilt standards). I mean 6-13? Good god, where they pulling his testicles every time he shot? Did he start launching 3's like he's Andrew Bynum?

I'll eagerly wait for the highlights.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm well aware of the game and particularly that UNC roster. I have read enough about it over the years to understand what happens and seen random, short, clips. It's been a while, tho. Pretty sure they are making a movie of it as well.

I just don't understand how this guy can enter the NBA and teams can't do shit to stop him. But against college kids in the biggest game of his life to that point, he has a very mediocre game (by Wilt standards). I mean 6-13? Good god, where they pulling his testicles every time he shot? Did he start launching 3's like he's Andrew Bynum?

I'll eagerly wait for the highlights.
I posted the full game for you above - but be prepared to fall asleep. It's LONG and full of stall ball. When you catch my highlights you'll see in a more compressed format all the box and 1 defense going on every time his team has the ball. His guards could hardly feed him and when they did Wilt got prison raped and sent to the line. Box and 1 defense isn't really fair even if your 7 foot 1.

[CavaliersFTW]

The highlights are rendering as we speak, should be up and ready to post by tomorrow :rockon:

Seeing 5 of Wilt's games in a row shows what an absolute marvel he was out there. He CATCHES peoples shots in 4 out of 5 of these games (1 was goal tending - the famous SFU shot that I have where he jumps very high, the other 3 were legal blocks!)

[jongib369]

The highlights are rendering as we speak, should be up and ready to post by tomorrow :rockon:
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbdit9RJq61r92x0e.gif

[CavaliersFTW]

T-minus 30 minutes

[CavaliersFTW]

http://youtu.be/S8JuK2dVky0

[Psileas]

I'm well aware of the game and particularly that UNC roster. I have read enough about it over the years to understand what happens and seen random, short, clips. It's been a while, tho. Pretty sure they are making a movie of it as well.

I just don't understand how this guy can enter the NBA and teams can't do shit to stop him. But against college kids in the biggest game of his life to that point, he has a very mediocre game (by Wilt standards). I mean 6-13? Good god, where they pulling his testicles every time he shot? Did he start launching 3's like he's Andrew Bynum?

I'll eagerly wait for the highlights.

23/14/6 in a game that had way less possessions than normal and ended with a 54-53 score is unimpressive for you? Ι don't have the boxscore of the game in front of me, but I'd bet he still had easily the best performance among all the participants and that, when pace adjusted, it's about at the same level with his previous ones.

[1987_Lakers]

From that clip these are the things that stood out.

- Wilt was an amazing athlete. Very active, just bigger, stronger, faster than anyone on the court.

- The people around him look like midgets, which enabled him to dominate, he didn't have to make a post move to score. It makes you wonder how his scoring would be today going up against better players. He would have to develop more post moves.

[CavaliersFTW]

From that clip these are the things that stood out.

- Wilt was an amazing athlete. Very active, just bigger, stronger, faster than anyone on the court.

- The people around him look like midgets, which enabled him to dominate, he didn't have to make a post move to score. It makes you wonder how his scoring would be today going up against better players. He would have to develop more post moves.

- Those midgets are NCAA players from the 50's... not his NBA competition from the 60's

- They are using box and 1 defense which is very physically taxing on Wilt - his turnaround jumpers etc that he displays in the video would be effective against any defense if they're good enough against a box and 1 - no matter how "short" the defenders are.

- The "centers" (not that it matters when 3 or 4 guys are guarding Wilt) in two of those games are Dwight Howard's height.

- This is Wilt's sophomore NCAA season. His scoring repertoire still isn't what it was in the NBA. Wilt DID have a wide variety of post moves that he used in the NBA.

[Vienceslav]

I was not ready for his speed when he puts his head down, it just looks unreal.

[Djahjaga]

- Those midgets are NCAA players from the 50's... not his NBA competition from the 60's

- They are using box and 1 defense which is very physically taxing on Wilt - his turnaround jumpers etc that he displays in the video would be effective against any defense if they're good enough against a box and 1 - no matter how "short" the defenders are.

- The "centers" (not that it matters when 3 or 4 guys are guarding Wilt) in two of those games are Dwight Howard's height.

- This is Wilt's sophomore NCAA season. His scoring repertoire still isn't what it was in the NBA. Wilt DID have a wide variety of post moves that he used in the NBA.

Why are you pretending like height is the only thing that determines defensive impact? Are you really saying any 6'9'' player has the same impact as Dwight Howard just because they're the same height?

Dwight dominates defensively (in a lot of the same ways Ben Wallace, another undersized center, did) because of a combination of length, athleticism (both hops and speed), and strength.

But you know this better than most. You're the one that's been showing everyone on ISH wingspan and standing reach measurements. How are you telling us the players Wilt faced in college were even remotely equipped to handle him physically just because "they're the same height as Dwight Howard?"

I don't blame Wilt for the competition he faced in college and a lot of what I saw in that video was really, really impressive, both skill-wise and with regards to athleticism. But I'm not gonna pretend to be impressed by stats that I can't compare to the baselines I've mentally set for myself (i.e. 30 points is a lot today, 12 rebounds is a lot today, 11 assists is a lot today, 3 blocks is a lot today etc.)

tl;dr Height =/= defensive impact. Being 6'9'' =/= Dwight Howard. Wilt is impressive beyond/irrespective of his stats.

[CavaliersFTW]

Why are you pretending like height is the only thing that determines defensive impact? Are you really saying any 6'9'' player has the same impact as Dwight Howard just because they're the same height?

Dwight dominates defensively (in a lot of the same ways Ben Wallace, another undersized center, did) because of a combination of length, athleticism (both hops and speed), and strength.

But you know this better than most. You're the one that's been showing everyone on ISH wingspan and standing reach measurements. How are you telling us the players Wilt faced in college were even remotely equipped to handle him physically just because "they're the same height as Dwight Howard?"

I don't blame Wilt for the competition he faced in college and a lot of what I saw in that video was really, really impressive, both skill-wise and with regards to athleticism. But I'm not gonna pretend to be impressed by stats that I can't compare to the baselines I've mentally set for myself (i.e. 30 points is a lot today, 12 rebounds is a lot today, 11 assists is a lot today, 3 blocks is a lot today etc.)

tl;dr Height =/= defensive impact. Being 6'9'' =/= Dwight Howard. Wilt is impressive beyond/irrespective of his stats.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Take it easy kid your getting way to far ahead of yourself. I never suggested anything of the sort. Thus the rest of your post is pointless. Try not to respond to words that you've put in my mouth in the future, okay?

[Djahjaga]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Take it easy kid your getting way to far ahead of yourself. I never suggested anything of the sort. Thus the rest of your post is pointless. Try not to respond to words that you've put in my mouth in the future, okay?

Way to avoid responding. And way to be a dick.

I'm on your side on most of these 'eras' debates, but you make far too many haphazard attempts to dismiss actual arguments against older eras. If you treated it seriously, maybe half the forum wouldn't think you were an idiot.

What you said, to dismiss the claim that Wilt faced small, unathletic white dudes in that video (which I realize you get a lot, and you're tired of arguing against it), was that the center was 6'9'', the same height as Dwight Howard. QED, Wilt destroyed someone with the same height (edit: and physical tools/abilities) as one of the best defensive big men of today.

I know you know that's ridiculous. And I called you out on it. And you proceeded to act like a child. Congrats.

[WillC]

To be fair, Wilt also averaged 28.5ppg, 28.2rpg, 3.9apg and 7.3bpg in 143 games against Bill Russell, so I'm pretty sure he'd put up similar numbers if he faced Dwight Howard.

[CavaliersFTW]

Way to avoid responding. And way to be a dick.

I'm on your side on most of these 'eras' debates, but you make far too many haphazard attempts to dismiss actual arguments against older eras. If you treated it seriously, maybe half the forum wouldn't think you were an idiot.

What you said, to dismiss the claim that Wilt faced small, unathletic white dudes in that video (which I realize you get a lot, and you're tired of arguing against it), was that the center was 6'9'', the same height as Dwight Howard. QED, Wilt destroyed someone with the same height (edit: and physical tools/abilities) as one of the best defensive big men of today.

I know you know that's ridiculous. And I called you out on it. And you proceeded to act like a child. Congrats.
You put words in my mouth and proceeded to write a belittling essay based on something I never said. If your having trouble understanding a post I've made ask for clarification. I'm being a dick to you, because the way you wrote that essay was based entirely off the assumption that I'm an idiot who connects height with defensive ability. Which IMO made you the dick that started an argument that shouldn't even exist.

[Djahjaga]

To be fair, Wilt also averaged 28.5ppg, 28.2rpg, 3.9apg and 7.3bpg in 143 games against Bill Russell, so I'm pretty sure he'd put up similar numbers if he faced Dwight Howard.

Like I said, I'm of the opinion that Wilt would be a monster in today's league. I don't presume that the best athletes of the NBA were on the same level as those in the NCAA (those shown in the video).

I don't even blame Wilt for the players he faced in college. I have no problem with any of the claims Wilt apologists have made (though, the mountain lion one is pretty funny).

I just think it's bullsh*t when CavsFTW laughs off legitimate claims like the white dudes in that video being outclassed in every way physically by Wilt with throwaway lines about their height. I know he knows that's straight bs.

You can acknowledge that Wilt was stronger, faster, taller, and generally more athletic than his college competition without making him seem less impressive.

[CavaliersFTW]

Like I said, I'm of the opinion that Wilt would be a monster in today's league. I don't presume that the best athletes of the NBA were on the same level as those in the NCAA (those shown in the video).

I don't even blame Wilt for the players he faced in college. I have no problem with any of the claims Wilt apologists have made (though, the mountain lion one is pretty funny).

I just think it's bullsh*t when CavsFTW laughs off legitimate claims like the white dudes in that video being outclassed in every way physically by Wilt with throwaway lines about their height. I know he knows that's straight bs.

You can acknowledge that Wilt was stronger, faster, taller, and generally more athletic than his college competition without making him seem less impressive.
Go ahead keep putting words in my mouth.

[Djahjaga]

You put words in my mouth and proceeded to write a belittling essay based on something I never said. If your having trouble understanding a post I've made ask for clarification before writing an essay based entirely on an assumption. I'm being a dick to you, because the way you wrote that essay based entirely off the assumption that I'm an idiot who connects height with defensive ability. Which IMO made you the dick that started an argument that shouldn't even exist.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I was following a general trend of yours. You often brush off arguments that others (myself included) find to be genuinely concerning to people like us who think that the older eras were great (or, at the very least, that Wilt would be incredible today).

When someone pointed out that Wilt's opposition in the video didn't inspire much awe, you laughed it off with a line about their height. And I raised my problems with it. Feel free to respond when you're done acting insulted.

Again, my bad for putting words in your mouth. But this seems to happen a lot with you.

[Djahjaga]

Go ahead keep putting words in my mouth.

Why don't you tell us what you mean, then, instead of acting like a child?

[CavaliersFTW]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I was following a general trend of yours. You often brush off arguments that others (myself included) find to be genuinely concerning to people like us who think that the older eras were great (or, at the very least, that Wilt would be incredible today).

When someone pointed out that Wilt's opposition in the video didn't inspire much awe, you laughed it off with a line about their height. And I raised my problems with it. Feel free to respond when you're done acting insulted.

Again, my bad for putting words in your mouth. But this seems to happen a lot with you.
I brush off people I percieve to be trolling. Who wouldn't?

Look at this from my side: You ALWAYS put words in my mouth, I recognized your name when you typed that essay up and cringed - because you've done this at least a few times before. People who put ridiculous words in other peoples mouths and than proceed to automatically argue against those words as if I said them are basically creating straw-man arguments - which is what trolls do. You LOOK like you are trolling me with that B.S. I have every right to ignore you if you are always going to ASSUME I've said something ridiculous than proceed to write a belittling essay in response.

And to break it down for you since you can't seem to follow:

Someone says "Wilt makes X look short"

I say "X is as tall as Dwight Howard"

THAT'S WHY I SAID WHAT I SAID. Simply to point out that - though they look short, they aren't as short as u think. Because Wilt makes even tall players look short. Stop assuming I've created some imaginary argument about white guys athleticism and defensive ablities. It's all in your head man.

[Psileas]

I just watched part of the video and I repeat what I've already written before: Wilt has the best reflexes I've ever seen in a guy of his size, followed probably by Robinson. Among all-time bigs, only Russell and Hakeem are comparable, and neither was his size.

BTW, I counted 4 blocked shots in the 3rd game, not 3.

[Djahjaga]

I brush off people I percieve to be trolling. Who wouldn't?

Look at this from my side: You ALWAYS put words in my mouth, I recognized your name when you typed that essay up and cringed - because you've done this at least a few times before. People who put ridiculous words in other peoples mouths and than proceed to automatically argue against those words as if I said them are basically creating straw-man arguments - which is what trolls do. You LOOK like you are trolling me with that B.S. I have every right to ignore you if you are always going to ASSUME I've said something ridiculous than proceed to write a belittling essay in response.

And to break it down for you since you can't seem to follow:

Someone says "Wilt makes X look short"

I say "X is as tall as Dwight Howard"

THAT'S WHY I SAID WHAT I SAID. Simply to point out that - though they look short, they aren't as short as u think. Because Wilt makes even tall players look short. Stop assuming I've created some imaginary argument about white guys athleticism and defensive ablities. It's all in your head man.




You stop putting words in my mouth, and maybe I'll respond to you. Even if I don't

Alright, fair enough. I didn't realize we had a history. I don't really respond to a lot of stuff on here. I usually just keep it to myself. In the future, I'll do better to ask for clarification and make sure of what's being said before responding.

For what it's worth, the video was very interesting. And I know you're not some idiot to confuse height for impact, but I really felt that you were avoiding the larger debate of the matter. I realize ISH has a lot of trolls, but I wasn't trolling.

[CavaliersFTW]

Alright, fair enough. I didn't realize we had a history. I don't really respond to a lot of stuff on here. I usually just keep it to myself. In the future, I'll do better to ask for clarification and make sure of what's being said before responding.

For what it's worth, the video was very interesting. And I know you're not some idiot to confuse height for impact, but I really felt that you were avoiding the larger debate of the matter. I realize ISH has a lot of trolls, but I wasn't trolling.
Then I'll do better at responding to your posts - apologies for writing you off as a troll :cheers:

[CavaliersFTW]

I just watched part of the video and I repeat what I've already written before: Wilt has the best reflexes I've ever seen in a guy of his size, followed probably by Robinson. Among all-time bigs, only Russell and Hakeem are comparable, and neither was his size.

BTW, I counted 4 blocked shots in the 3rd game, not 3.
How sure are you? I wasn't sure on one of them so to be conservative I said 3.

[Djahjaga]

Then I'll do better at responding to your posts - apologies for writing you off as a troll :cheers:

We cool :cheers:

[Marchesk]

To be fair, Wilt also averaged 28.5ppg, 28.2rpg, 3.9apg and 7.3bpg in 143 games against Bill Russell, so I'm pretty sure he'd put up similar numbers if he faced Dwight Howard.

Adjust for pace. No way anyone is putting up those kind of rebounding numbers again. Rodman's the only one who came close in the last several decades, and he might be the GOAT rebounder. Also, no way anyone is blocking that many shots a game. Goal tending rules are stricter and there aren't as many shots to block.

[Psileas]

How sure are you? I wasn't sure on one of them so to be conservative I said 3.

You mean the one at 8:27, right? I'm not sure either, one has to magnify or view from another angle to judge whether this was a shot attempt, although the intention does seem to be to shoot.

[LAZERUSS]

To be fair, Wilt also averaged 28.5ppg, 28.2rpg, 3.9apg and 7.3bpg in 143 games against Bill Russell, so I'm pretty sure he'd put up similar numbers if he faced Dwight Howard.

Excellent post.

And I would add...while outscoring Russell by a 2-to-1 margin, badly outrebounding him, probably outblocking him (in the h2h's we do have, Wilt had the better numbers), ...and outshooting Russell by about a .500 to .400 margin from the field...and in leagues that shot between .395 to .446 in that span.

Of course, Chamberlain just annihilated the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who would probably be listed at 7-0 in today's NBA.) He had a season in which he averaged 52.7 ppg on .500 shooting against Bellamy (in a league that shot .426), as well as another season of 43.7 ppg. Both seasons were 10 h2h games each...so over the course of 20 straight games, all Chamberlain could muster against Bellamy was 48.2 ppg...on average. Included were four games of 60+, with a high game of 73 (along with 36 rebounds, and on 29-48 shooting.)

Without looking up the numbers, Chamberlain probably averaged well over 40 ppg against the 7-0 (who would probably be listed at 7-1 today) Walter Dukes in their career h2hs.

A prime 'scoring" Wilt also had a string of 11 straight games against the 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, in which he badly outscored Thurmond, including six of 30+, with high games of 38 (outscoring Nate 38-15), and 45 (shelling Thurmond by a 45-13 margin.) And, as a sidenote, in the '67 Finals, and in Thurmond's greatest season, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond in five of their six h2h's; outrebounded Nate in five of those six h2h's; outshot him in all six games; outassisted him five of six; and probably outblocked him in all of them (including a couple of 10+.) Oh, and he also outshot Nate from the field in that series, by a .560 to .343 margin.

And how about Wilt, in his last two seasons of his career, and in 11 straight games, against the 6-11 260 lb. Bob Lanier (again...a seven-footer today)? In those 11 straight games, Chamberlain averaged 23.9 ppg on... get this... a .784 FG%.

I could go on and on. A prime Chamberlain, in nine h2h games in the 64-65 season, and against the HOFer Willis Reed, averaged 40.1 ppg...which included games in which he outscored Reed by margins of 41-9; 52-23; and 58-28.

And, for those that weren't aware of this...before the 69-70 season, Wilt's new coach, Joe Mullaney, came to Chamberlain and asked him to become the focal point of the Laker offense. Wilt relished the idea. For the first time in since his 65-66 season, he was being asked to score again. How did a 33 year old Wilt respond? In the first nine games of the season, Chamberlain was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (and on a .579 FG%.) Included were games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. The 37 point outburst came against the 7-0 260 lb Tom Boerwinkle. The 38 point explosion came against reigning MVP Wes Unseld. And the 42 point game was against Bob Rule (go ahead and look him up...you will be surprised at just how good he was.) Oh, and in his h2h against the 7-2 KAJ, he wiped the floor with Kareem. He outscored KAJ, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted KAJ, 5-2; outblocked KAJ, 3-2; and outshot Kareem by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin.

Unfortunately for Wilt (and the fans of the NBA), Chamberlain shredded his knee in the ninth game (having scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting), and was never the same again.

The facts were, a prime Chamberlain destroyed everyone, regardless of height or skill levels.

[Marchesk]

The facts were, a prime Chamberlain destroyed everyone, regardless of height or skill levels.

That's quite impressive. But he didn't destroy Kareem, nor did he always destroy Russell or Thurmond.

It's really too bad we can't have a GOAT league. I'd love to see how Wilt would have done against Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Wallace and especially, Shaq. Or vice versa.

[LAZERUSS]

That's quite impressive. But he didn't destroy Kareem, nor did he always destroy Russell or Thurmond.

It's really too bad we can't have a GOAT league. I'd love to see how Wilt would have done against Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Wallace and especially, Shaq. Or vice versa.

A prime Chamberlain never faced KAJ. The closest Wilt we have in that regard was in his one h2h in Kareem's rookie season (69-70), and before he shredded his knee. And in that one game, he easily outplayed KAJ.

BTW, Kareem faced Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, and lessor centers like Dierking, Jim Fox, and Imhoff, in many games...and never approached the domination that a prime Chamberlain carpet-bombed those guys with. And I mean, not even close.

As for Russell and Thurmond... here again, a prime Chamberlain outplayed both, and in many by huge margins. Of course the Russell fans will point to his 86-57 overall record against Wilt's teams.

[LAZERUSS]

For those that scoff at Wilt's "college competition"...too bad we don't have footage of even one of his 271 40+ point NBA games. Much less one of his 122 50+ point games (four of which were in the post-season.) Or one of his 32 60+ point games. Or how about one of his six 70+ point games.

And where is the footage of just one of these games...


Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)




Or how about outrebounding Russell by a 55-19 margin. Or outscoring him by a 62-23 margin? Or the game in which he held Russell to 0-14 shooting?

How about his last 60+ point game, in which he shot 29-35 from the field (which is an all-time record for a 60+ point game)?

How about one of his three "perfect" games in his 66-67 season, in which he shot 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18 from the floor (and BTW, he had an 18-19 game earlier in his career)?

And we know that the '68 Christmas day game was nationally televised, and that SI's writer recorded all 23 of Wilt's blocked shots. Where is that game?

Where is Wilt's 22 point, 25 rebound, 21 assist game? Or his 34 point, 33 rebound, 20 block game?

The list is endless. If only we had footage of those NBA games...

[CavaliersFTW]

That's quite impressive. But he didn't destroy Kareem, nor did he always destroy Russell or Thurmond.

It's really too bad we can't have a GOAT league. I'd love to see how Wilt would have done against Ewing, Olajuwon, Robinson, Wallace and especially, Shaq. Or vice versa.
He never faced Kareem in his prime - and in 2 series in the playoffs he did outplay Kareem. Not outright destroy, but outplay yes. Including the 72 series where his stats appear to be inferior, consensus on both sides was that he outplayed Jabbar (playing a role similar to Russell - playing team defense etc then outproducing Kareem offensively during say, the 4th quarter)

[LAZERUSS]

Adjust for pace. No way anyone is putting up those kind of rebounding numbers again. Rodman's the only one who came close in the last several decades, and he might be the GOAT rebounder. Also, no way anyone is blocking that many shots a game. Goal tending rules are stricter and there aren't as many shots to block.

Here is where it gets interesting...

Thanks to ThaRegul8r's research, we now know that Chamberlain, in his LAST season (72-73), and at age 36 (and playing 43 mpg), in a league that averaged 107.6 ppg...averaged 5.42 bpg.

So what? The very next season the NBA began to "officially" record blocked shots. And in that 73-74 season, KAJ averaged 3.5 bpg, while Thurmond was at 2.9 bpg. KAJ would go on to lead the league in bpg four times, with a high of 4.1 bpg.

Furthermore, just 12 years after Wilt's LAST season (84-85), Mark Eaton set the "official" record of 5.56. BTW, Hakeem played in the "Eaton-era" and never approached that mark.

And the "official" record for blocks in a game is 17, by Elmore Smith. BUT, we KNOW that Chamberlain blocked 23 shots in a nationally televised game in 1968. And there are estimates of Wilt with 30+.

And there are well educated estimates with a more prime Chamberlain having entire seasons of 10+ bpg.

Oh, and in the 71-72 WCF's, Chamberlain blocked a known 33 shots (in four known games) against the Bucks. Included were a known 15 against KAJ (and many of those were sky-hooks.) In fact, we have block numbers in seven of Wilt's 28 h2h's against Kareem, and in those same games, he blocked 30 of KAJ's shots (many sky-hooks...including video of two within five seconds.)

Just something to think about....

[MiseryCityTexas]

What a choke in the championship. That game went to triple OT, I think the tallest player on UNC was 6-9, and that's what he produces? Oh yeah, his team didn't even win.

Do you have the full game of the championship?


No he doesn't but he did lie like bitch and said that he had the full game awhile back. I don't even think WiltatKansas had the full game.

[CavaliersFTW]

No he doesn't but he did lie like bitch and said that he had the full game awhile back. I don't even think WiltatKansas had the full game.
So I compiled these highlights from what? CGI? You must really hate your life to come into my threads just to call me a liar and a bitch. I don't post full unedited games on my YT channel for copyright reasons. But it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that if I'm posting full game highlights of specific players that I obviously have the full game.

[TheTenth]

Adjust for pace. No way anyone is putting up those kind of rebounding numbers again. Rodman's the only one who came close in the last several decades, and he might be the GOAT rebounder. Also, no way anyone is blocking that many shots a game. Goal tending rules are stricter and there aren't as many shots to block.
Adjusted for pace and per36 minutes, Wilt is the 3rd best rebounder of all hall of famers. Interestingly enough, Wilt is the best Rebounds per 36 out of all hall of famers in the playoffs for adjusted statistics, but playoff stats are weighted to go in certain directions because of who you play/how many times you play them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Adjusted for pace and per36 minutes, Wilt is the 3rd best rebounder of all hall of famers. Interestingly enough, Wilt is the best Rebounds per 36 out of all hall of famers in the playoffs for adjusted statistics, but playoff stats are weighted to go in certain directions because of who you play/how many times you play them.
And adjusted for pace he's the #1 playoff rebounder of all time - ahead of both Rodman and Bill Russell.

*EDIT* Nvm... I see you already pointed that out quite clearly, my bad :hammerhead:

[TheTenth]

And adjusted for pace he's the #1 playoff rebounder of all time - ahead of both Rodman and Bill Russell.
Isn't that what I posted? I don't find it a huge deal though, Wilt played more games against Russell than any other center; which swayes his RPG up and his PPG and FG% down. Playoff numbers aren't exactly comparable between two players, because of who each player plays against.

[CavaliersFTW]

Isn't that what I posted? I don't find it a huge deal though, Wilt played more games against Russell than any other center; which swayes his RPG up and his PPG and FG% down. Playoff numbers aren't exactly comparable between two players, because of who each player plays against.
Yah see my edit - my fault for skimming :lol

[AngelEyes]

Incredible video. Godlike ability being displayed by Wilt.

[pudman13]

Here's my biggest question about Wilt, and CavaliersFTW, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this: How would he play in today's game where the role of the center has changed so much and the style of defensive play has changed so much? I don't doubt that someone with his size and physical ability would dominate, but I just wonder who he would be used and how he would fit into the kinds of very athletic teams (and 3-pointer gunning teams) that characterize the NBA today.

I wonder quite a bit also about some of the most skilled players of the late 60s and early 70s, guys like Havlicek, Monroe, Barry, West, Frazier, Unseld. I think all of those guys would be successful, for sure, but how would they be used? Would all of those 6'5" guys who played forward adjust to playing 2-guard instead? Would someone undersized like Unseld (or Cowens) be a PF instead of a center? Would West an Barry be mis-used as 3-point specialists?

[Marchesk]

Just something to think about....

Sure, but some of the blocks I see him making on video highlights look like they'd be goal tending today. It would be interesting to see what someone like Wilt or Eaton for that matter, would average block wise in today's games. Guys are overall more athletic, and have a tendency go for the dunk more often than they did back then. They're also a bit more skilled at using the rim to protect against shot blockers.

[mehyaM24]

wilt= not dominant at all......dominant is not averaging 44.8 ppg 24.3 rpg and playing every damn game in 1963 and leading your team to last in ppg allowed and a downright pathetic 31-49 record......the emptiest stats in bball history.....not to mention couldn't even crack 51% in his 50.4 ppg season.....yet LeBron shot 56% this yr......wilt isn't even close to LeBron.....just a laughingstock

[CavaliersFTW]

Here's my biggest question about Wilt, and CavaliersFTW, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this: How would he play in today's game where the role of the center has changed so much and the style of defensive play has changed so much? I don't doubt that someone with his size and physical ability would dominate, but I just wonder who he would be used and how he would fit into the kinds of very athletic teams (and 3-pointer gunning teams) that characterize the NBA today.

I wonder quite a bit also about some of the most skilled players of the late 60s and early 70s, guys like Havlicek, Monroe, Barry, West, Frazier, Unseld. I think all of those guys would be successful, for sure, but how would they be used? Would all of those 6'5" guys who played forward adjust to playing 2-guard instead? Would someone undersized like Unseld (or Cowens) be a PF instead of a center? Would West an Barry be mis-used as 3-point specialists?
You make it seem like he'd need to adjust to other players - and all these "new" things. I don't think it's like that. Other players and systems would be built and forced to adjust around him. He's Wilt Chamberlain - just listen to guys like Jerry West talk about him. They don't even hesitate to say he'd own the league today. If your name carries that much clout, other people mold to you not the other way around.

You also still don't get it about NBA player height then vs now. Those "6-5" guys playing forward... they're probably the same height as forwards today. Minus the inflated list info.

[CavaliersFTW]

wilt= not dominant at all......dominant is not averaging 44.8 ppg 24.3 rpg and playing every damn game in 1963 and leading your team to last in ppg allowed and a downright pathetic 31-49 record......the emptiest stats in bball history.....not to mention couldn't even crack 51% in his 50.4 ppg season.....yet LeBron shot 56% this yr......wilt isn't even close to LeBron.....just a laughingstock
Cool, you cherry picked Wilt's worst season/team/coach combo to compare it to Lebron's best. Aren't you special

[CavaliersFTW]

So did anyone watch these highlights all the way through yet? Thoughts?

[mehyaM24]

Cool, you cherry picked Wilt's worst season/team/coach combo to compare it to Lebron's best. Aren't you special

mad cavs fan? :lol ....lebron don't set records like wilt.....you know when it was so easy to score and rebound due to the pace and lack of defense that the 1962 Chicago packers went 18-62 and were dead last in scoring.....yet averaged 110.9 ppg,which would qualify as #1 in any year LeBron ever played....

wilts teams were LAST in ppg allowed in both 1963 and 1964,which were his 2 highest scoring seasons......his teams locking the opposition down to the tune of 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg......wilt is a joke compared to LeBron...

[CavaliersFTW]

mad cavs fan? :lol ....lebron don't set records like wilt.....you know when it was so easy to score and rebound due to the pace and lack of defense that the 1962 Chicago packers went 18-62 and were dead last in scoring.....yet averaged 110.9 ppg,which would qualify as #1 in any year LeBron ever played....

wilts teams were LAST in ppg allowed in both 1963 and 1964,which were his 2 highest scoring seasons......his teams locking the opposition down to the tune of 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg......wilt is a joke compared to LeBron...
Amused is the best word to describe how I felt after reading your post. Now it is changing to both amusement and pitty.

[PHILA]

I was not ready for his speed when he puts his head down, it just looks unreal.


Yes, it is unbelievable. Too bad there isn't more footage of his prime NBA years out there, or even his Globetrotters year in 1958-59, during which he improved his ball handling skills even more. One thing in the video which stands out is his distinct form of FT shooting.



Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire who Lives Next Door - Wilt Chamberlain (1973)

[I]In high school, I'd been an 85 percent foul shooter. In college, with the opposition preventing us from playing the run-and-gun basketball I was accustomed to, I didn't have the same opportunities to shoot from the outside that I had had at Overbrook, and my outside shooting proficiency suffered; so did my free-throw shooting. I shot my free throws with one hand back then, taking a deep-knee bend kind of motion, and it was something of a strain on my knees; like many men who grow too quickly in their youth, I had arthritic knees from childhood on, and at Kansas, that problem was exacerbated by an exercise Coach Harp had us do

[PHILA]

The way he catches the ball out of the air at 2:40 mark shows incredible timing for a 7'1 center. I have rarely seen him do that with two hands. There was the one handed catch he had back at Overbrook that I am most familiar with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU&t=2m20s

[LAZERUSS]

wilt= not dominant at all......dominant is not averaging 44.8 ppg 24.3 rpg and playing every damn game in 1963 and leading your team to last in ppg allowed and a downright pathetic 31-49 record......the emptiest stats in bball history.....not to mention couldn't even crack 51% in his 50.4 ppg season.....yet LeBron shot 56% this yr......wilt isn't even close to LeBron.....just a laughingstock

I would argue that Chamberlain's 62-63 season was among the greatest ever. Why? Sure his TEAM went 31-49. Which was not surprising considering the fact that Wilt's two best teammates from his 61-62 squad were long gone. Or that the Warrior roster had a total of 16 different players during the season, five of which would only see a few games in their NBA careers, and the rest of which, aside from Wilt, were no better than average, and the majority of those were poor. He had two "All-Star" teammates...Tom Meschery, in his only all-star season, and who averaged 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and shot .425 from the field. His other all-star teammate was Guy Rodgers, arguably the worst shooter (compared to league) in NBA history. Rogers actually had one of his best shooting seasons that year... .387.

BTW, take Wilt's .528 FG% (an NBA record at the time) off of that team, and his teammates collectively shot .412. Which would have been well below the league worst team FG% of .427.

But, that 31-49 record was also somewhat deceptive, too. They lost 35 games by single digits, and were involved in only eight games that had a 20+ point differential (and they went 4-4 in those.)

Take a close look at their nine h2h's with the champion Celtics, who fielded a roster of NINE HOF players. True, they only went 1-8 in them, but here were the margins of Boston's wins. 18, 17, 15 (in OT...so that game was tied in regulation), 14, 6, 6, 6, and 3 points. Obviously that 15 point game was nowhere near as one-sided as the final score would indicate. In fact, in actuality, it was the closest loss. That means that five of those eight losses were very competitive. And in the three double-digit losses, they were down by 19, 11, and 8 going into the 4th quarters. And, the Warriors did manage to beat Boston in one game, 128-112.

So, realistically, all but one of those eight losses were relatively close going into the 4th quarters, and five of them went down to the wire.

How did Chamberlain perform in those nine h2h's with Russell? He outscored Russell, per game, 38 ppg to 14 ppg. Here were those games: 23 points, 22 rebounds; 23-31, 31-27, 32-27, 34-30, 40-38, 43-32, 45-31, and 50-17.

As you can see, it was painfully obvious that Chamberlain was single-handedly keeping his cast of clowns in those games. The reality was, Chamberlain's best teammate, Meschery, would only have been Boston's 7th or 8th best player.

How bad was that '63 Warrior roster? Their new coach in the 63-64 season, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Chamberlain, with his veterans going up against draftees and rejects. Guess which team won? Hannum was just horrified.

And yet, Chamberlain then led that sorry group of misfits to a 48-32 record in that 63-64 season. Essentially the same exact roster, with the only addition being rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, out of position, and shot .395 from the floor.

Not only that, but Wilt then took that inept roster past a Hawks team in the WDF's, that was considerably better, players 2-6 than what Chamberlain was saddled with. And all Wilt did in that series was average 39 ppg, 23 rpp, and shoot .559 from the field (in a post-season NBA that averaged 105.8 ppg and shot .420 from the field.)

In the '64 Finals, Chamberlain's Warriors were beaten 4-1 by Russell's HOF-laden Celtics. But even that was deceptive. The last two games of that series came down the waning seconds. And all Chamberlain could do in that Finals, was outscore Russell, per game, 29 ppg to 11 ppg; outrebound Russell, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshoot Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

Now that you have had a better perspective, let's go back to that '62-63 season, shall we?

Chamberlain played his heart out, game-after-game, even when the season was becoming hopeless. he played nearly every minute of every game (47.6 mpg overall.) He led the NBA in scoring by a huge margin (44.8 pg to Baylor's runnerup 34.0 ppg.) He led the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg (on a team that averaged 59 rpg.) He set a then-record FG% mark of .528 (in a league that shot .441.) He even handed out 3.4 apg. In fact, he led the NBA in FIFTEEN statistical categories (and had blocked shots, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, and trb% been tracked, he likely would have led in those as well), out of 22 categories. He even led in Win Shares, and by a large margin. In fact, his Win-Shares rating of 20.9, accounted for about 70% of his team's win-shares. Oh, and he set a PER mark of 31.8, which is still the all-time record.


As for your take on his "inefficiency" from the field...he outshot the league by a huge margin EVERY year in which he played. Keep in mind that players like Jerry West, as great a shooter who has ever played, had seasons of .419 and .445 early in his career. Havlicek played a total of 16 seasons, eight of which were in the 60's, and the other eight in the 70's. Guess what? He shot a higher FG% EVERY year in the 70's. Darrell Imhoff had three seasons in the early 60's in which he shot below .400, including one of .314. By 1970 he was shooting .540. Johnny Green averaged 15.9 ppg on .436 (a year after shooting .430) in 61-62. In his 70-71 season he averaged 16.7 ppg on a league-leading .587 FG%.

How do explain the above? Player-for-player, who played early in the decade of the 60's, would shoot considerably higher by the late 60's. And those that played in both decades, shot better in the 70's.

And how do explain that, in the year before Chamberlain arrived in the NBA, in 58-59, the league shot .756 from the FT line. The year after Wilt retired, in 73-74, the NBA shot .771 from the line. How about last year (2012-13)? .753...or worse than in the 58-59 NBA, and considerably worse in the league some 40 years ago.

Of course, you failed to mention that in Chamberlain's 65-66 season, he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg, and on a then-record .540 FG% (and in a league that shot .433.) Or that he also led the league in rebounding at 24.6 rpg. Or that he handed out 5.2 apg, while leading the league in scoring. Oh, and BTW, he led his team to the best record in the league, too.

Yep...Wilt "the choker" and "the loser."...

[mehyaM24]

^
wilt= a joke...rebounding?....are you aware nate thurmond grabbed 31 rebounds vs wilt in game 1 of the 1967 nba finals?....nate was over 20 rebounds all 6 games that series...it was EASY to get tons of rebounds back then,because there were far more shots taken,and far more misses....

wilt= 2 rings...thats embarrassing for a man with his reputation

[mehyaM24]

NBA record at the time...he also led the league in rebounding

shaq= nba record 13 straight seasons averaging 20-10 ....lmaooo...rebounding?....shaq outrebounded rebound champs in playoff series...WHEN IT MATTERS...

wilt= nba record 55 rebounds in a game....DID I MENTION HE LOST THAT GAME!!!!....:oldlol:

shaq- 15-1 in 2001 playoffs...undefeated on the road....has the nba record for consecutive playoff road wins

[LAZERUSS]

mad cavs fan? :lol ....lebron don't set records like wilt.....you know when it was so easy to score and rebound due to the pace and lack of defense that the 1962 Chicago packers went 18-62 and were dead last in scoring.....yet averaged 110.9 ppg,which would qualify as #1 in any year LeBron ever played....

wilts teams were LAST in ppg allowed in both 1963 and 1964,which were his 2 highest scoring seasons......his teams locking the opposition down to the tune of 122.7 ppg and 120.6 ppg......wilt is a joke compared to LeBron...

Defense is relative. You already mentioned that Chamberlain "only" shot .506 in his 50 ppg season, and "only" shot .528 in his 45 ppg season.

And I already responded that the entire NBA was shooting much lower from the field back then...even though FT shooting has remaind relatively constant since he late 50's thru today (in fact, theNBA shot a higher FT% in '59 than just last year.)

And there ae several reasons for that. Another poster here, G.O.A.T, suggeted that the BALL was different back then. It was not uniform until around 1970. And there are photographs of players with BALD basketballs. I grew up in the 60's, and I remember playing in city leagues in which the balls varied in weight, and in some cases, were lopsided.

There were other factors, as well. The venues were often cold, and at times, even breezy. And I'm sure that most everyone here has played outdoors. Cold weather and windy conditions dramatically affect shooting. On top of that, smoking was prevalent in the arenas. Here again, those that attended games in that era would tell you that by halftime, the gyms looked like it was being played in heavy fog.

And one often overlooked fact, was that the SCHEDULE was far more brutal than what it is today. Using Wilt as an example, in his 61-62 season, he played a TON of b2b games. Included were six separate stretches of "three-in-a-row"; and anoher three separate runs of "four-in-a-row", and even one other separate stretch of "five games in five nights" (and two of them were on the road.)

A couple of years ago, during the NBA strike-shortened season, the league "condensed" the schedule, and the results were considerably less scoring, and consideraby worse shooting for much of the season. The numbers slowly rose as the schedule became more normal the last part of the year.

And back to defense. There was no 3 point shot back then. True, there were shooters who would have been capable of consistently hitting three point shots, but there really wasn't a reason to take 23+ foot shots. The effect of that was that the defenses were much more compacted. It may have been evn more difficult to score in the half-court back then. True, the game was played at a more frenetic pace, which elevated the scoring, but the overall FG%'s were considerably lower.

I already mentioned the fact that, by-and-large, player-for-player, who played in the early 60's thru the late 60's, and beyond, generally shot MUCH better from the field in the late 60's, or into the 70's. Their FT shooting remained relatively constant, but their FG% efficiencies rose by considerable margins.

So when you are comparing Lebron's .565 FG%, which is incredible in any era BTW, to Chamberlain's FG%'s, you have to keep in mind that the eFG% in 1962 was .426, while it was .496 last year. Why is that important? Because the "paceologists" always use the argument that the 60's scoring (particularly the early 60's) was inflated. Their first course of reasoning is to immediately reduce the numbers of the 60's, (or increase the current era's) by the FGAs. The problem with just using that"formula" is that it doesn't take into account the FG% differences.

For example, in Chamberlain's '62 season, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Lst year the NBA averaged 98.1 ppg. In Wilt's '62 season, the NBA averaged 108 FGAs, and 37 FTAs, per game, per team. In 2013, the NBA averaged 82 FGAs and 22 FTAs per game.

So if you reduce '62's FGAs and FTAs down to '13 levels, BUT, if don't factor in eFG%, this is what you get: 82 x .426= 34.9 FGM, or 69.8 ppg on FGAs. 22 x .756 = 16.6 ppg. 69.8 ppg + 16.6 ppg = 86.4 ppg. So, as you can see, without adjusting for eFG%, '62 is dramatically lower in scoring (by nearly 12 ppg.)

Now, let's compare Oscar's '63 season, in which he shot .518, in a league that had an eFG% of .441, to Lebron's .565 in a league that had an eFG% of .496. ELEVATE Oscar's FG% to Lebron's NBA, and he shoots .582 (.496 / .441x .518.) And how about Wilt's '66 season, when he shot .540 in a league with an eFG% of .433? .619. And if you really want to push it, take Wilt's '67 season of .683 in a league that shot .441... .768.

So those that claim that Oscar and Chamberlain's scoring numbers were elevated, true, they were. But after factoring in eFG%'s, it was not as dramatic as they would have you believe. Reduce Wilt's '62 season down to Lebron's 2013 levels, and this is what you would get. 82/108 x 39.5 FGAs = 30FGA. 22/37 x 17 FTAs = 10.1 FTA. Without adjusting for eFG%'s... 30 x .506 = 15.2 FGM, or 30.4 ppg on FGAs. 10.1x .636, or 6.4 ppg on FTAs... or 36.8 ppg. BUT, we HAVE to adjust Wilt's eFG% to Lebron's levels. So, .496/.426 = 1.164 x .506, or .589. 30 FGA x .589 = 17.7 FGM, or 35.4 ppg. 35.4 + 6.4 = 41.8 ppg. In theory, transfer Wilt's '62 season to 2013, and he would have averaged 41.8 ppg on .589 shooting.

Now, whether he would play 48 mpg is another question. But, if you reduce his mpg, you also need to somehow adjust his efficiency even higher. Why? Because playing 40-44 mpg is considerably less than 48 mpg, and clearly, if efficiency wasn't affected, why wouldn't the players of the current NBA be playing 48 mpg?

Of course you can do the simple math, too. In '62 the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. Last year the NBA averaged 98.1 ppg. 98.1/118.8 = .826 x 50.4 ppg = 41.6 ppg.

Defense in the 60's and 70's and beyond? Ask Kareem. He faced an old, past-his-prime Wilt in 28 h2h games. And this was a KAJ in his peak statistical seasons. Over the course of those 28 games, he shot .464...which is miles below his career FG% of .559. Furthermore, a prime Kareem faced Nate Thurmond in 40 h2h encounters...and shot .440. His high game against Thurmond was 34 points.

In the 70's, KAJ had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and .513 (right in the middle of his prime.) His high season in the 70's was .579. In the first eight seasons of the 80's, KAJ's LOW FG% was .564. His high was .604 and he evenhad a .599 season at age 37.

Oh, and in his first 10 straight games against Hakeem, and at ages of 38 and 39... he averaged 32 pg on .630 shooting, with games of 40, 43, and 46 points.

Just more food for thought...

[LAZERUSS]

shaq= nba record 13 straight seasons averaging 20-10 ....lmaooo...rebounding?....shaq outrebounded rebound champs in playoff series...WHEN IT MATTERS...


wilt= nba record 55 rebounds in a game....DID I MENTION HE LOST THAT GAME!!!!....:oldlol:

shaq- 15-1 in 2001 playoffs...undefeated on the road....has the nba record for consecutive playoff road wins

Shaq was outrebounded by the 6-7 Ben Wallace in the '04 Finals, in a series in which Shaq's Lakers were routed, 4-1.

And in the '96 series against the Bulls, Shaq was outrebounded by the 6-8 Rodman, 63-36, in a series in which his Magic were swept.

Find me ONE playoff series, in the 29 that Chamberlain played in, in which he was outrebounded.

[TheTenth]

Why respond to trolls? It's not going to change their opinion. If it is someone with a legitimate question or a statement that seems to have some weight from someone who hasn't done research, and could actually benefit from the information that comes, then sure respond. But this is just being baited to waste your time, although I may be wasting my time with the post...

[LAZERUSS]

Why respond to trolls? It's not going to change their opinion. If it is someone with a legitimate question or a statement that seems to have some weight from someone who hasn't done research, and could actually benefit from the information that comes, then sure respond. But this is just being baited to waste your time, although I may be wasting my time with the post...

Bad habit on my part.

[mehyaM24]

Find me ONE playoff series, in the 29 that Chamberlain played in, in which he was outrebounded.

rebounding?...

wilt= 24.5 rpg in 47.2 mpg in playoff career

russ= 24.9 rpg in 45.4 mpg in playoff career

LMAOOO....the 6'9 220 lb bill russell with MORE rpg in FEWER minutes than wilt....sorry....it was easy to get 20 rpg in wilts era....thats why 4 guys did in the 60's....wayyyyyy more shots taken,which means more rebounds

i'm a genius

[LAZERUSS]

rebounding?...

wilt= 24.5 rpg in 47.2 mpg in playoff career

russ= 24.9 rpg in 45.4 mpg in playoff career

LMAOOO....the 6'9 220 lb bill russell with MORE rpg in FEWER minutes than wilt....sorry....it was easy to get 20 rpg in wilts era....thats why 4 guys did in the 60's....wayyyyyy more shots taken,which means more rebounds

i'm a genius

Hmmm...

Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of their eight playoff series h2h's...including margins of 31-26, 30-25 and 32-23.

And in their 143 career h2h's, Chamberlain held a 28.5 to 23.6 rpg advantage (outrebounding Russell by a 92-43-8 margin in those 143 h2h's.)

As for Russell's 24.9 to 24.5 rpg edge...

when Russell retired after the 68-69 season, Chamberlain's career playoff rpg average at that point was at 26.3 rpg.

[mehyaM24]

Hmmm...
Russell in EVERY one of their eight playoff series h2h's...including margins of 31-26, 30-25 and 32-23.

And in their 143 career h2h's, Chamberlain held a 28.5 to 23.6 rpg advantage (outrebounding Russell by a 92-43-8 margin in those 143 h2h's.)

As for Russell's 24.9 to 24.5 rpg edge...

when Russell retired after the 68-69 season, Chamberlain's career playoff rpg average at that point was at 26.3 rpg.


...time to expose wilts rebounding with ease....

1960= league average was 73.5 rpg....#1 alltime!!!!

1993= league average was 43.1 rpg....the highest it was in shaqs whole career!!!!...

PERSPECTIVE..

1960= royals/knicks= 70.0 rpg..TIED FOR DEAD LAST IN THE NBA!!!

1993= nuggets= 46.7 rpg....#1 in the nba!!!!

1986 celtics= 46.4 rpg...#1 in the nba,with a legendary frontcourt!!!.....would the WORST rebounding teams in 1960 dominate these teams on the boards?...:lol


Chamberlain outrebounded...

....wanna know who thinks shaq is the better rebounder?....ok...ELLIOT KALB....you know,"MR.STATS"?....and wilts 50 ppg doesnt impress him....me either...he shot a pathetic .506% to get there,while shaq has never been below 55%.....wilt was a playoff choker....the FOOTAGE clearly shows shaq is wayyy better....but most important of all,i say shaq is the best.....and im the expert....

[fpliii]

...time to expose wilts rebounding with ease....

1960= league average was 73.5 rpg....#1 alltime!!!!

1993= league average was 43.1 rpg....the highest it was in shaqs whole career!!!!...

PERSPECTIVE..

1960= royals/knicks= 70.0 rpg..TIED FOR DEAD LAST IN THE NBA!!!

1993= nuggets= 46.7 rpg....#1 in the nba!!!!

1986 celtics= 46.4 rpg...#1 in the nba,with a legendary frontcourt!!!.....would the WORST rebounding teams in 1960 dominate these teams on the boards?...:lol



....wanna know who thinks shaq is the better rebounder?....ok...ELLIOT KALB....you know,"MR.STATS"?....and wilts 50 ppg doesnt impress him....me either...he shot a pathetic .506% to get there,while shaq has never been below 55%.....wilt was a playoff choker....the FOOTAGE clearly shows shaq is wayyy better....but most important of all,i say shaq is the best.....and im the expert....

So what? I'm a Shaq stan and not particularly a Wilt guy, but this is patently false. You can fault Wilt for some things, but rebounding is not one of them. He destroys Shaq in that department, even when you look at his numbers in context. Seriously, but their TRB%/MPG/pace alongside one another, and there's no debate.

BTW, what's the point of mentioning his 50ppg year? Great exploit, but that's not even one of Wilt's three most impactful seasons (63-64, 66-67, 67-68 are at the very least, possibly 65-66 as well).

[BoutPractice]

Even adjusting for whatever you want to adjust it for, Wilt is one of the all-time great rebounders.

The fact of the matter is, he led the NBA in rebounding for more than a decade. If grabbing the amount of boards Wilt grabbed were so unimpressive, then how come he was the only one to do it... pretty much every year of his career?

[LAZERUSS]

...time to expose wilts rebounding with ease....

1960= league average was 73.5 rpg....#1 alltime!!!!

1993= league average was 43.1 rpg....the highest it was in shaqs whole career!!!!...

PERSPECTIVE..

1960= royals/knicks= 70.0 rpg..TIED FOR DEAD LAST IN THE NBA!!!

1993= nuggets= 46.7 rpg....#1 in the nba!!!!

1986 celtics= 46.4 rpg...#1 in the nba,with a legendary frontcourt!!!.....would the WORST rebounding teams in 1960 dominate these teams on the boards?...:lol



....wanna know who thinks shaq is the better rebounder?....ok...ELLIOT KALB....you know,"MR.STATS"?....and wilts 50 ppg doesnt impress him....me either...he shot a pathetic .506% to get there,while shaq has never been below 55%.....wilt was a playoff choker....the FOOTAGE clearly shows shaq is wayyy better....but most important of all,i say shaq is the best.....and im the expert....

Look up Chamberlain's TRB%'s...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305971

He simply blows Shaq's best seasons away...

BTW, your rebounding numbers for 1960 are considerably off. Find me ONE team in the 59-60 season that averaged 73.5 rpg, much less the entire league.

Of course, the uneducated are unaware of the fact that the NBA kept track of TEAM rebounds prior to the 68-69 season, and haven't since.

[LAZERUSS]

From that clip these are the things that stood out.

- Wilt was an amazing athlete. Very active, just bigger, stronger, faster than anyone on the court.

- The people around him look like midgets, which enabled him to dominate, he didn't have to make a post move to score. It makes you wonder how his scoring would be today going up against better players. He would have to develop more post moves.

Of course in Chamberlain's NBA career, he was swarmed, and even brutalized, and yet still set records that will never be approached, must less equalled. And he would need more "post moves???" Did you even watch any of that footage. I certainly don't see ANY center in today's NBA with his assortment of moves and shots, and even his range is better than most.

Of course those that use Wilt's size against him, must then concede that had Shaq not weighed in at 325+ for much of his career, that he too, would have been a bench-warmer.

[TheTenth]

BTW, what's the point of mentioning his 50ppg year? Great exploit, but that's not even one of Wilt's three most impactful seasons (63-64, 66-67, 67-68 are at the very least, possibly 65-66 as well).
I know this is all opinion, and I am not accusing you of doing this, but lately people seem to devalue Wilt's 62 season because (from what I can tell) it's the obvious choice to have and thus wan't to seem more "knowledgeable."

I think Wilt's best seasons are:
(Tied) 1. 1962, 1967
2. 1964
3. 1968

Just my two cents that have been devalued due to inflation. :oldlol:

[Psileas]

The insecurometer of some people here is off the charts. This is a topic about Wilt's NCAA days in 1957 and they can't keep away from trying to mention his NBA failures or "failures". This would be like having a topic discussing a bad NBA moment for Wilt and some others replaying by posting videos of his 1957 tournament...

[LAZERUSS]

I know this is all opinion, and I am not accusing you of doing this, but lately people seem to devalue Wilt's 62 season because (from what I can tell) it's the obvious choice to have and thus wan't to seem more "knowledgeable."

I think Wilt's best seasons are:
(Tied) 1. 1962, 1967
2. 1964
3. 1968

Just my two cents that have been devalued due to inflation. :oldlol:

I honestly have a difficult time selecting Wilt's best seasons.

But I do find it fascinating that there are those that diminish his '62 season for whatever reasons. The fact was, Chamberlain just shelled the league that year. He averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 shooting against Russell (in a league that shot .426), and a staggering 52.7 ppg on .500 shooting against Bellamy.

Furthermore, he carried a team, the core of which had been a last place team before he arrived, and that became older and worse, thru the first round of the playoffs (which included the clinching, and must-win, game five performance of 56 points and 35 rebounds.) Then, against a 60-20 Celtic team that had a considerable edge in talent, players 3-7 (and #2 was probably even), he somehow managed to get them to a game seven, two-point loss. In fact, his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season, and yet he nearly led them to a huge upset in the EDF's.

Other's have ripped his 62-63 season, because he played on a losing team, even though I already illustrated just what a dominating season it was. To better put it in perspective, he led the NBA in FIFTEEN statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, and FG% (and it was a record at the time.) Ok, three years later he would lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and set a then-record FG% mark. The difference? His team had the best record in the league. Clearly he had virtually zero help in '63. Those that say he was a selfish stats-padder that season are completely wrong. His teammates collectively shot .412 that season, and considering that the worst team in the league shot .427, if anything, Chamberlain should have shot more. And even his 3.4 apg were deceptive. How many assists did he lose because his teammates couldn't hit the Grand Canyon from the ledge?

Which then brings me to his 63-64 season. He essentially took the same cast of clowns, but with a HOF head coach, and carried them to a 48-32 record. Then, in the WDF's, and with a 39-23 .559 series, he carried them to a seven game series win, against a Hawks team that was considerably better, players 2-6. And while the HOF-laden Celtic beat Wilt's Warriors 4-1 in the Finals, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. And Wilt, as always, outplayed Russell (outscoring him, 29 ppg to 11 ppg; outrebounding him, 28 rpg to 25 rpg; and outshooting him, .517 to .386.)

And how about his 65-66 season? This was his last great "scoring" season (although he was on his way to another great one in 69-70 when he went down with his horrific knee injury.) And he wiped the floor with Bellamy in their ten h2h's; crushed Thurmond in their nine h2h's; and pounded Russell in their 14 h2h's (nine regular season, and five in the EDF's.) And along the way he led his team to the best record in the league. BTW, during the regular season, his Sixers went 6-3 against Boston, and in the process, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot a reliable estimate of about .525 from the field. In the EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. Yet, his Sixers were plastered 4-1 by the Celts. How come? His teammates collectively shot .352 in that series.

Many observers rank Chamberlain's 66-67 as his greatest. Here again, he just annihilated the best centers in the league. And, while his coach had him cut back his scoring, he shot an eye-popping .683 from the field, to go along with 7.8 apg. And, when he wanted to score, he did. As he did the entire decade of the 60's, he had the league's high game that season ("only" 58 points, on 26-34 shooting.) And, in the post-season, he put up two straight triple double series, and in the process just waxed Russell in the EDF's. And when he finally received some help, his Sixers carper-bombed Boston the EDF's, 4-1 (and only a four point loss in Boston in game four prevented a sweep.) Then he overwhelmed Thurmond, in Nate's greatest season, in the leading his Sixers to the title.

67-68 was well on it's way to being more of the same, too. He led his Sixers to a runaway best record in the league. He finished either 3rd or 4th in scoring (Oscar didn't have enough games to qualify at the time, but it is now listed as the official leader), but, Wilt had the four highest scoring games in the NBA that season, including a 68 point explosion. He led the league in rebounding, and by a wide margin. He led the league in FG%. And, he led the league in assists. However, his Sixers were just decimated by injuries in the EDF's (including Wilt, himself, who played with an assortment of injuries), and they lost a game seven to the eventual champion Celtics by four points.

I could, but won't bother, make a case for 71-72, as well. Needless to say, his Lakers set a then-record mark of 69-13, which included 33 straight wins. And he would go on to win the FMVP in that title season.

And one can only wonder what his 69-70 season might have been, had he not blown out his knee. In the first nine games of the season, he was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on a .579 FG%, which included games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43, and another 25 point game against rookie Kareem, in which he thoroughly outplayed him. And even on one leg, he got his 46-36 Lakers to a game seven against the 60-22 Knicks...and all he did in that series, was to put up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) Had he been healthy all season, he might have had yet another brilliant season.

[LAZERUSS]

The insecurometer of some people here is off the charts. This is a topic about Wilt's NCAA days in 1957 and they can't keep away from trying to mention his NBA failures or "failures". This would be like having a topic discussing a bad NBA moment for Wilt and some others replaying by posting videos of his 1957 tournament...

A Chamberlain in his SOPHOMORE year, as well.

Another interesting topic would be...just dominant would this 20 year old Wilt have been in an NBA that already had a shot-clock? We already know that a rookie Wilt just owned the NBA, and in his very first NBA game, he scored 43 points, on 17-27 shooting, with 28 rebounds, and an estimated 17 blocked shots.

[Marchesk]

......wilt isn't even close to LeBron.....just a laughingstock

Obvious troll attempt. Get back to us when Lebron leads the league in scoring seven times, rebounding eleven times, FG% nine times, is a league leader in shot blocking every season along with Russell, leads the league in assists for a season, or shoots 72.7% from the field, which is still a record. Wilt held 74 records. His name is top 5 in every GOAT list.

[Marchesk]

LMAOOO....the 6'9 220 lb bill russell with MORE rpg in FEWER minutes than wilt....sorry....it was easy to get 20 rpg in wilts era....thats why 4 guys did in the 60's....wayyyyyy more shots taken,which means more rebounds


If it was all that easy, don't you think more than four guys would have done it in that decade? Granted, the numbers are inflated due to pace and poorer shooting. But it was only four dudes, and Baylor came close one season.

As mentioned before, Chamberlain led the league eleven times in rebounding. Did Shaq do that? We're talking Rodman type dominance in that department. And that 55 rebound game against the second best rebounder of that era? Even adjusting for pace, that's a monster number.

[Psileas]

A Chamberlain in his SOPHOMORE year, as well.

Another interesting topic would be...just dominant would this 20 year old Wilt have been in an NBA that already had a shot-clock? We already know that a rookie Wilt just owned the NBA, and in his very first NBA game, he scored 43 points, on 17-27 shooting, with 28 rebounds, and an estimated 17 blocked shots.

IMO, he'd probably be the most dominant player from 1954 and on, although he might miss some fundamentals that he learned in college or the Trotters. OTOH, he'd get to play against pros earlier and not waste himself with rules that wouldn't apply in the pros anyway (shot clock, zones).
George Mikan was still the top dog of the NBA in his last full season and I can't see him outmatch even a 17 y.o Wilt. I don't know if Wilt could be considered stronger already, but he was definitely on a different plane overall athletically. My reservation is that in a league without a shot clock, like the 1954 NBA, differences in athleticism tend to count less and would probably result in Wilt having somewhat deceptively low stats, but from 1955 and on and with a lower level of competition than in the 60's, it wouldn't be close any more. I guess Wilt would be close to a 30-20 player in 1956.

[LAZERUSS]

Obvious troll attempt. Get back to us when Lebron leads the league in scoring seven times, rebounding eleven times, FG% nine times, is a league leader in shot blocking every season along with Russell, leads the league in assists for a season, or shoots 72.7% from the field, which is still a record. Wilt held 74 records. His name is top 5 in every GOAT list.

Actually, we really don't know how many records Chamberlain holds. A couple of years ago Harvey Pollack claimed that he had some 90. However, if you include "streaks" his records would be in the hundreds, if not thousands.

For example, we know that Wilt had back-to-back games of 61 and 100 points. So he holds the record for the two highest consecutive scoring games. We also know that he had a five straight game streak of 67, 65, 61, 100, and 58 points, or 351 points in a five straight game span (70.1 ppg). So, that is a record. Given the fact that he has the two highest 40+ point game streaks (two of 14 games each...and in them he averaged 53 and 54 ppg), we know that he has those streaks. In fact, we know that he averaged 50.4 ppg in one season. So, we know that he now has the highest single game record, the record for two consecutive games, the record for three straight games, the record for four straight games, the record for five straight games, six, seven, ...all the way up to 80 straight in '62. Of course, he averaged 44.8 ppg in '63, so he now has the record for 81, 82, 83...thru 160 (BTW, he did not miss a game from '62 thru '64.) And given the fact that he averaged 34 ppg thru his first 11 seasons, he would then hold the record for something like 800+ straight games.

Then, without doing any research (but I would feel very confident in this, but Russell possibly could hold some), you could do the same thing for consecutive rebound games. For instance, he had a five straight game span of 34, 31, 39, 32 , 36 in his rookie season. He also had a two game streak of 28 and 55, so that is probably the record. Here again, I would have to go into some thorough research, but I suspect that he would hold some incredibly long consecutive game rebounding streaks.

We also know that he made 35 straight FGAs, which is a solid record. And given the fact that he has the two highest FG% seasons, he probably has a considerable number of FG% "streaks" as well (e.g. best percentage over the course of 40 straight FGAs, 50, 60, etc.)

And how about points-rebounds games? For example, the NBA has had a total of 168 30-30 games in it's entire history. And Wilt has had 132 of them by himself. 40-30 games? The NBA has had a total of 82...with Chamberlain having 73 by himself. Same with 50-30, 40-40, 50-40, 60-20, 60-30, 60-40, 70-30, 70-40, etc. He just holds a TON of those records.

And if blocked shots had been officially kept in his era, I suspect that he would hold many of them, as well. It is interesting that Elmore Smith is credited with the "official" record of 17, but we KNOW that during a nationally televised game in 1968, SI recorded every one of his 23 blocks. And he has had some games in which he may have been credited with more than 30.

In any case, Wilt's actual records probably number in the thousands.

[Marchesk]

In any case, Wilt's actual records probably number in the thousands.

Some of those are rather arbitrary, but it does highlight Wilt's statistical dominance. There is no other player in NBA history who comes close. Now, I'll accept that Shaq in his prime was more dominant physically, given his style of play. But he did not put up better numbers than Wilt.

[KOBE143]

Weak era :sleeping

[LAZERUSS]

Some of those are rather arbitrary, but it does highlight Wilt's statistical dominance. There is no other player in NBA history who comes close. Now, I'll accept that Shaq in his prime was more dominant physically, given his style of play. But he did not put up better numbers than Wilt.

I'm a huge fan of Shaq. I think he has become very under-rated, and it just disgusts me that anyone would rank Hakeem over him (just look at their career h2h's, both regular season and post-season...Shaq just murdered him.)

Having said, though, take a look at this footage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Now, does anyone honestly believe that the NBA would have let Chamberlain play that way? They would have been carrying players out in body-bags had Chamberlain played that way.

Fortunately for the league, Chamberlain seldom used his massive edge in size and strength against his peers. And given the fact that the NBA devised rules aimed strictly at Chamberlain, in an effort to curtail his dominance, you can be sure that they would have enacted some kind of "anti-Wilt" rule regarding the style of play that Shaq exerted against Mutombo, as well. Otherwise Chamberlain would have made a complete mockery of the game, and the league probably would have folded.

[Marchesk]

So did anyone watch these highlights all the way through yet? Thoughts?

Very nicely done. It shows that Wilt had great hands, was quite the athlete, and had more to his game than dunks even back then. It's clear he was a once in a generation kind of player. You really are only talking about a handful of centers in the history of the game with his combination of size, skill and athleticism. And there are none today.

[Marchesk]

Weak era :sleeping

Even if so, name a true seven footer since Shaq retired who had Wilt's game. You can't. There are no great centers in the game today. Roy Hibbert looked great against the Heat and Knicks. A career 11 and 7 guy. What do you think one of the great bigs would do in the league today? They'd be feasting on centers of this era.

[fpliii]

I know this is all opinion, and I am not accusing you of doing this, but lately people seem to devalue Wilt's 62 season because (from what I can tell) it's the obvious choice to have and thus wan't to seem more "knowledgeable."

I think Wilt's best seasons are:
(Tied) 1. 1962, 1967
2. 1964
3. 1968

Just my two cents that have been devalued due to inflation. :oldlol:

Well, it might be possible that I'm doing so. Wilt himself said he felt he played up to his potential with his great coaches, namely McGuire, Hannum, Sharman. He felt Schayes and Johnston were both problematic, and VBK was a disaster. I'm not too big on individual numbers without team-level impact. In my files (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&sortcolid=1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339), I'm currently operating while using the ORtg_%' and DRtg_%' columns on the median page (percent differences from the league average of all teams except the one being evaluated). In the seasons I mentioned (plus the Sharman years since he rates them highly):

Year: O / D
62: +2.0% / -0.5%
64: -2.0% / -7.2%
66: +0.5% / -4.0%
67: +6.8% / -2.1%
68: +1.9% / -5.8%
72: +8.0% / -3.2%
73: +4.1% / -4.2%

67 and 72 are top 25 offenses (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=9&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=25) in league history (4 and 17 respectively) while his 64 teams's defense was the 14th best ever (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=16&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=25), in a season with Boston having the GOAT defense by this measure. A lot of anecdotes positively rate those seasons more so than others from my reading (no links to provide offhand at the moment). Disclaimer - this is just one measure, and the 72 offense is probably overrated due to expansion (though I think in 64 both BOS and SFW being historically great understates both teams).

Other than the pure numbers, the way I figure in 64 he went against Russ at his absolute peak in the Finals, and in 67 he dethroned the 8-time defending champs with something close to a quad-double (http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Chamberlain.xls) in the EDF (the block numbers listed as being estimates are a bit shaky, so maybe not use those; it's still arguably the GOAT playoff series IMO). So at the very least, 62 is behind those two years in my book (68 as well in my book, but Wilt's mind being elsewhere and passiveness might bump that down for some). Obviously everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but this is where I stand at the moment.

[Marchesk]

Does anyone have Wilt's top PERs when estimated blocks and steals are included? He had three straight seasons of 31.6, 31.8 and 31.7. That's probably the best three year PER of all time, with Jordan, Shaq and Lebron being close, if you take Lebron's best three seasons (not consecutively). But Wilt blocked a lot of shots and those aren't included.

[CavaliersFTW]

Does anyone have Wilt's top PERs when estimated blocks and steals are included? He had three straight seasons of 31.6, 31.8 and 31.7. That's probably the best three year PER of all time, with Jordan, Shaq and Lebron being close, if you take Lebron's best three seasons (not consecutively). But Wilt blocked a lot of shots and those aren't included.
^---- I'm interested in this myself

[LAZERUSS]

Does anyone have Wilt's top PERs when estimated blocks and steals are included? He had three straight seasons of 31.6, 31.8 and 31.7. That's probably the best three year PER of all time, with Jordan, Shaq and Lebron being close, if you take Lebron's best three seasons (not consecutively). But Wilt blocked a lot of shots and those aren't included.

Estimated blocks and steals, as well as TOs. But that's the problem...they are purely estimates. From what ThaRegul8r uncovered, in Wilt's last season, he had Chamberlain with 5.42 bpg. Which, to my knowledge, is the only info known (I believe Psileas had numbers very close, as well.)

I believe Psileas had Wilt with something like 6+ bpg in his 71-72 season, and given the fact that he averaged over 7 in the entire playoffs (including blocking a known 15 of Kareem's shots), that 6+ is probably pretty accurate.

And in PHILA's limited research, he found that Wilt seldom committed a turnover in the games in which he disected, so these "myths" that Wilt was some kind of turnover machine were probably contrived by yet another "Wilt-basher."

I will be the first to admit, I couldn't figure out PER if my life depended on it, but there is a good chance that Wilt was blocking around 8 shots in his career, and with a very small percentage of turnovers. I have not read anthing concrete on his steals, but in any case, his overall PER just has to be higher than the listed amounts.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, it might be possible that I'm doing so. Wilt himself said he felt he played up to his potential with his great coaches, namely McGuire, Hannum, Sharman. He felt Schayes and Johnston were both problematic, and VBK was a disaster. I'm not too big on individual numbers without team-level impact. In my files (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&sortcolid=1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=1339), I'm currently operating while using the ORtg_%' and DRtg_%' columns on the median page (percent differences from the league average of all teams except the one being evaluated). In the seasons I mentioned (plus the Sharman years since he rates them highly):

Year: O / D
62: +2.0% / -0.5%
64: -2.0% / -7.2%
66: +0.5% / -4.0%
67: +6.8% / -2.1%
68: +1.9% / -5.8%
72: +8.0% / -3.2%
73: +4.1% / -4.2%

67 and 72 are top 25 offenses (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=9&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=25) in league history (4 and 17 respectively) while his 64 teams's defense was the 14th best ever (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dE5jQnJyOG50ODNCZ0hpZFZpaGhnRW c&type=view&gid=3&f=true&colid0=2&filterstr0=NBA&sortcolid=16&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=25), in a season with Boston having the GOAT defense by this measure. A lot of anecdotes positively rate those seasons more so than others from my reading (no links to provide offhand at the moment). Disclaimer - this is just one measure, and the 72 offense is probably overrated due to expansion (though I think in 64 both BOS and SFW being historically great understates both teams).

Other than the pure numbers, the way I figure in 64 he went against Russ at his absolute peak in the Finals, and in 67 he dethroned the 8-time defending champs with something close to a quad-double (http://nbastats.net/01NBA/07playerlogs/Chamberlain.xls) in the EDF (the block numbers listed as being estimates are a bit shaky, so maybe not use those; it's still arguably the GOAT playoff series IMO). So at the very least, 62 is behind those two years in my book (68 as well in my book, but Wilt's mind being elsewhere and passiveness might bump that down for some). Obviously everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, but this is where I stand at the moment.


I am very limited in my math skills, but I am interested in your above formulas. How do they account for the performnaces of the players on each roster? Clearly Chamberlain was playing with crappy rosters for the first half of his career, and on top of that, as bad as those rosters were in the regular season, performed much worse in the post-season, too.

How do we know how they would have fared without Wilt?

[fpliii]

I am very limited in my math skills, but I am interested in your above formulas. How do they account for the performnaces of the players on each roster? Clearly Chamberlain was playing with crappy rosters for the first half of his career, and on top of that, as bad as those rosters were in the regular season, performed much worse in the post-season, too.

How do we know how they would have fared without Wilt?

They're purely team-impact based (the only input data are ORtg and DRtg, which are in this case the median of three estimates), no subjective decisions are made. They're relevant though because until the end of his career, Wilt's teams' offenses and defenses both ran through him, so I think it's appropriate to give him credit for their performances.

We'll have to agree to disagree about his rosters. I don't think they were crappy, but they weren't the best in the league until he was traded to the Sixers. Again, I don't want to push this issue so I won't respond further. You've seen more of Wilt than anybody else on this board so I respect your opinion, but I've done my research and this is where I stand. I don't think we're incredibly far off, but again, not really interested in that type of discussion.

Anyhow, I'm not sure if you frequent RGM, but I'm going to submit my results to this project:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1241811

and will have a definitive answer regarding Wilt's teams then.

[Psileas]

Does anyone have Wilt's top PERs when estimated blocks and steals are included? He had three straight seasons of 31.6, 31.8 and 31.7. That's probably the best three year PER of all time, with Jordan, Shaq and Lebron being close, if you take Lebron's best three seasons (not consecutively). But Wilt blocked a lot of shots and those aren't included.

That's something I'd like to calculate once I get these numbers.

BTW, I'd done some quick calculations some years ago and, as some rules of thumb, in PER terms, 1 TO = close to 1 PER "unit" (it may slightly change from era to era), 1 steal = 1 TO (in absolute terms obviously) and 1 blocked shot = roughly 0.7 TO's, probably to account for the fact that a blocked shot leads to a defensive rebound in about 70% of the cases (or would that be the differential of "def.rebound chance" - "offensive rebound chance", which would make the chances 85% and 15% respectively?).
If I made any mistakes in these estimates that I recall, I'd like someone to point them out.

Given these numbers, and assuming that Wilt averaged, say, 1 stl, 5.4 bl, 2.5 TO's in his last season, his "real" PER in 1972-73 would likely jump from 19.1 to around 21.4.

[LAZERUSS]

That's something I'd like to calculate once I get these numbers.

BTW, I'd done some quick calculations some years ago and, as some rules of thumb, in PER terms, 1 TO = close to 1 PER "unit" (it may slightly change from era to era), 1 steal = 1 TO (in absolute terms obviously) and 1 blocked shot = roughly 0.7 TO's, probably to account for the fact that a blocked shot leads to a defensive rebound in about 70% of the cases (or would that be the differential of "def.rebound chance" - "offensive rebound chance", which would make the chances 85% and 15% respectively?).
If I made any mistakes in these estimates that I recall, I'd like someone to point them out.

Given these numbers, and assuming that Wilt averaged, say, 1 stl, 5.4 bl, 2.5 TO's in his last season, his "real" PER in 1972-73 would likely jump from 19.1 to around 21.4.

Here again, I don't have a clue as to how PER is calculated, but using Chamberlain's 62-63 season as an example...has there ever been another year in which a player so thoroughly dominated the major statistical categories? He LED the NBA in FIFTEEN of them, and some by significant margins (he won the scoring title by +10.8 ppg.)

Same with his 65-66 season, when he not only led in THIRTEEN statistical categories, and again, some by a considerable margin. He even averaged 5.2 apg that year.

And yet, last year Lebron came in at a 31.6 rating, which is just behind Wilt's 31.8 rating in 62-63. And he did so without leading the league in any major statistical category.

I sure don't understand it.

Not only that, but had categories like Blocks, Offensive and Defensive Rebounding, Rebounding percentages, etc, been tracked in Wilt's career, he likely would have been the leader in many of those, as well.

[Marchesk]

And yet, last year Lebron came in at a 31.6 rating, which is just behind Wilt's 31.8 rating in 62-63. And he did so without leading the league in any major statistical category.

We can guess that Wilt's was probably over 33 and possibly as high as 34 that season. I'd just like to see someone plug in a realistic estimate of blocks, steals and turnovers for Wilt to see what he would have had for one of those seasons he was 31+.

[1987_Lakers]

Wow, this video is getting some media attention.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22770490/video-wilt-chamberlain-in-1957-dominating-at-kansas

[CavaliersFTW]

Wow, this video is getting some media attention.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22770490/video-wilt-chamberlain-in-1957-dominating-at-kansas
Yeah it's also on Yahoo, Deadspin, and a few other news venues. Wilt still wowing fans and making headlines after 60 years :lol

[PHILA]

The fans deserve to see the footage. :applause:

I really hope the NBA is actually holding out some old video as a couple of articles have indicated. The main concern is that ABC and the various local networks didn't preserve the broadcasts.

[fpliii]

Yeah it's also on Yahoo, Deadspin, and a few other news venues. Wilt still wowing fans and making headlines after 60 years :lol

:applause:

[Psileas]

Yeah it's also on Yahoo, Deadspin, and a few other news venues. Wilt still wowing fans and making headlines after 60 years :lol

Most importantly, Wilt still opening eyes after 60 years. Too bad it took that long, such videos should have been released a lot earlier, and that's something I hold against basketball fans/basketball people in general - they don't respect and promote its history enough.

[1987_Lakers]

Most importantly, Wilt still opening eyes after 60 years. Too bad it took that long, such videos should have been released a lot earlier, and that's something I hold against basketball fans/basketball people in general - they don't respect and promote its history enough.

I believe the NBA an its fans promote & respect its history more than any other major sport in America.

[TheTenth]

I believe the NBA an its fans promote & respect its history more than any other major sport in America.
I don't know, baseball has a whole Ken Burns 11 or 12 part documentary on it that is pretty in-depth. Not to mention that it was more popular in its early days than basketball was. Maybe I'm wrong though...

[wpdougie2180]

I believe the NBA an its fans promote & respect its history more than any other major sport in America.


:oldlol: and NFL and MLB blew the NBA out of the water in that regard they even respect their own record books more and don't use disclaimers like since 1970 or since the merger as much or at all as the NBA does

[TheTenth]

:oldlol: and NFL and MLB blew the NBA out of the water in that regard they even respect their on record books more and don't use disclaimers like since 1970 or since the merger as much or at all as the NBA does
For the casual baseball fan (like myself), the barriers are just different, ie: dead ball era, pre/post color barrier.

[CavaliersFTW]

I believe the NBA an its fans promote & respect its history more than any other major sport in America.
Baseball, football and especially boxing do a much better job keeping past legends alive IMO. Due to aggressive marketing and exaggeration of what's always "current" in basketball, basketball fans throw past players under the bus and percieve them as weak - especially if they never saw them play. From what I've seen, Baseball/Football/Boxing discussions on other sports sites rarely spiral into such ignorant discussions. And the NFL for example, has done a good job highlighting players like Jim Brown or Dick Butkus etc making short films or highlight reels about them that keep modern fans entertained, educated, and even thoroughly impressed by what they see out of those past players. The NBA and NCAA has not treated it's past legends the same. And the resulting ignorance in most casual fans shows.