better peak, Lebron vs. Kobe [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:15 AM

LOL. What a bullshitter.

At least believe the shit you write.

Who would you take of the list then?

Top 5 is unquestionably better than Lebron.

T-mac? Winning 20 more games in the west, with Yao putting up 18 & 8 (Ilgauskas had almost identical numbers).

Iverson? 30 ppg and actually making playoffs (his last great year).

Wade? Played magnificent in the playoffs and was part of a 59 win team.

Kobe? Struggled with his shooting early on, but was a better defender and had a complete offensive repertoire.

plowking

07-15-2013, 05:23 AM

Who would you take of the list then?

Top 5 is unquestionably better than Lebron.

T-mac? Winning 20 more games in the west, with Yao putting up 18 & 8.

Iverson? 30 ppg and actually making playoffs (his last great year).

Wade? Played magnificent in the playoffs and was part of a 59 win team.

Kobe? Struggled with his shooting early on, but was a better defender and had a complete offensive repertoire.

You just talked about a player being on a shitty team compared to a good team a couple posts above, and now you're using winning as an excuse as to who the better player was?

Bron was better than Wade. This is from a Heat fan who hated Bron at the time. Nash? Better than him too.
Somehow you give the nod to Kobe over him despite using team record against LeBron just before. Not to mention Kobe didn't even play the full season, only 66 games. He was better than Kobe that year.
I'd probably take him over Iverson as well, who won a total of one game more than Lebron's team.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:26 AM

Nash? Better than him too.

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n631/Cowboy009/simpsons-leaving-room.gif

TheBigVeto

07-15-2013, 05:28 AM

Lebron wins easy

Dave3

07-15-2013, 05:29 AM

Who would you take of the list then?

Top 5 is unquestionably better than Lebron.

T-mac? Winning 20 more games in the west, with Yao putting up 18 & 8 (Ilgauskas had almost identical numbers).

Iverson? 30 ppg and actually making playoffs (his last great year).

Wade? Played magnificent in the playoffs and was part of a 59 win team.

Kobe? Struggled with his shooting early on, but was a better defender and had a complete offensive repertoire.
6 and 7 are debatable, with LeBron having more than a strong argument against Wade and he was definitely better than Kobe that year.

As for the definition of elite being top 5-7, why not 7-9? Why not top 10? Because LeBron was in both those categories? Not to mention that LeBron was a lot closer to top 5 than he was to top 10.

Regardless, 27/7/7 is elite, regardless of how you try to spin it or make up arbitrary criteria about the definition of elite.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:34 AM

Regardless, 27/7/7 is elite, regardless of how you try to spin it or make up arbitrary criteria about the definition of elite.

Those numbers does not make you automatically elite.

I would never consider Gilbert Arenas an elite player, and he put 29, 6, 4 on 44% shooting in 06.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:37 AM

Why not top 10?

Let's make it top 15 then.

Was Kobe an elite player in 2000 (many put him in their top 10)?

I think he became elite in 2001.

KingBeasley08

07-15-2013, 05:42 AM

Lebron by far

Dave3

07-15-2013, 05:57 AM

Let's make it top 15 then.

Kobe was an elite player in 2000 (many put him in their top 10)?

I think he became elite in 2001, when he was a top 5 player.

That's the point, elite isn't defined as being a certain position in a certain season. One year only the top 5 players might be elite, one year 12 might be elite.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:00 AM

Those numbers does not make you automatically elite.

I would never consider Gilbert Arenas an elite player, and he put 29, 6, 4 on 44% shooting in 06.
Sure, if you're on an incredibly terrible team and you're stat padding the entire time and you're a selfish player - yes they don't automatically make you elite.

If you however get those numbers leading a team with a poor and inconsistent supporting cast to 42 wins while also shooting 47/35/75 and 2.2 steals, yes you're elite.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:00 AM

That's the point, elite isn't defined as being a certain position in a certain season. One year only the top 5 players might be elite, one year 12 might be elite.

You don't think an elite player should at least make th playoffs playing in the 2005 eastern conference.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:04 AM

You don't think an elite player should at least make th playoffs, playing in the 2005 eastern conference.
He had the same record as the 8th seed, an above .500 record with a poorly built team.

And you're going to argue making the playoffs as the minimum for being elite? Or will you claim that only applies to the East since Kobe played in the West?:rolleyes:

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:04 AM

Sure, if you're on an incredibly terrible team and you're stat padding the entire time and you're a selfish player - yes they don't automatically make you elite.

If you however get those numbers leading a team with a poor and inconsistent supporting cast to 42 wins while also shooting 47/35/75 and 2.2 steals, yes you're elite.

You can stat pad in many ways.

And Arenas had the same record in 2006 (42-40) and made the playoffs.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:05 AM

And you're going to argue making the playoffs as the minimum for being elite? Or will you claim that only applies to the East since Kobe played in the West?:rolleyes:

Pretty much.

The west was a bloodbath in 05-07.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:06 AM

You can stat pad in many ways.

And Arenas had the same record in 2006 (42-40) and made the playoffs.
Yeah, and LeBron didn't stat pad at all.

Not to mention, 29/6/4 isn't better than 27/7/7, and LeBron played better in 2005 than Arenas in 2007, outside of stats.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:07 AM

LeBron played better in 2005 than Arenas in 2007, outside of stats.

I'm talking about 06.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:08 AM

Pretty much.

The west was a bloodbath in 05-07.
The Lakers had a below .500 record against both conferences, the Cavaliers had a .500+ record against both conferences. The Lakers' 34-48 in the West is worse than 42-40 in the East.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:10 AM

I'm talking about 06.
And Arenas was quite elite in 2006.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 06:13 AM

Let me see here:

The one that gets shut down by Boris Diaw and is baited into shooting or the one that could destroy your team just on offense alone all by himself. Yeah it's a hard choice, not.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:14 AM

The Lakers had a below .500 record against both conferences, the Cavaliers had a .500+ record against both conferences. The Lakers' 34-48 in the West is worse than 42-40 in the East.

The Cavs were healthy, had the same coach all year, played in the east and had a starting froncourt that put up 31 & 18.

If you don't think that 05 Kobe could get that team in to the EC playoffs, we have nothing to discuss.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:15 AM

And Arenas was quite elite in 2006.

Not in my book.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:19 AM

Not in my book.
And yet 2005 Kobe is? If to you 2005 Kobe > 2005 LeBron and 2006 Arenas, then I have nothing left to argue.

D-Wade316

07-15-2013, 06:20 AM

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:21 AM

And yet 2005 Kobe is? If to you 2005 Kobe > 2005 LeBron and 2006 Arenas, then I have nothing left to argue.

I just want this on the record.

Arenas 2006 > Kobe 2005

Right?

http://i.minus.com/i0TANWy4SaAwG.gif

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 06:23 AM

Lebron. Not even close. Wade, CP3, Dwight, Dirk, and Durant had better peaks as far as I'm concerned. I'm in the minority, but I don't consider 06-08 as Kobe's peak. 08-09 are his peak seasons. Kobe 06-07 is one dimensional as it gets.

:roll: :roll:

Just cause he averaged 35.4 doesn't mean he's one dimensional. It means his team was trash and needed the extra offense. BTW his RPG and APG in those years are.......wait for it, well, average for Kobe.

If he was one dimensional is 06-07 then he's been one dimensional his whole career. Lets not confuse playing for a lottery team being one dimensional.

Carry on.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:23 AM

The Cavs were healthy, had the same coach all year, played in the east and had a starting froncourt that put up 31 & 18.

If you don't think that 05 Kobe could get that team in to the EC playoffs, we have nothing to discuss.
If you think going from Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Chucky Atkins and Chris Mihm to Z, Gooden, Mcinnis and Newble would result in you winning 8 more games, then you're right about there being nothing left to discuss.

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:25 AM

I just want this on the record.

Arenas 2006 > Kobe 2005

Right?

http://i.minus.com/i0TANWy4SaAwG.gif
Correct.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:26 AM

If you think going from Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Chucky Atkins and Chris Mihm to Z, Gooden, Mcinnis and Newble would result in you winning 8 more games, then you're right about there being nothing left to discuss.

Nice. Almost ignoring all of my points.

Good dodge.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:26 AM

Correct.

Amazing.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 06:29 AM

Correct.

:facepalm

Dave3

07-15-2013, 06:30 AM

Nice. Almost ignoring all of my points.

Good dodge.
Take the rosters the way they were, including injuries, coaching change (which btw the Cavs had as well), etc. Switch the Kobe/LeBron around. Kobe would be no more successful.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 06:36 AM

Take the rosters the way they were, including injuries, coaching change (which btw the Cavs had as well), etc. Switch the Kobe/LeBron around. Kobe would be no more successful.

Malone was the interim head coach for 18 games.

Frank Hamblen coached for 49 games, hopelessly trying to implement the triangle offense in mid season (with a brutal road schedule ahead).

And you also need to take a month out of Lebron's season (kobe was out for a month).

D-Wade316

07-15-2013, 06:44 AM

:roll: :roll:

Just cause he averaged 35.4 doesn't mean he's one dimensional. It means his team was trash and needed the extra offense. BTW his RPG and APG in those years are.......wait for it, well, average for Kobe.

If he was one dimensional is 06-07 then he's been one dimensional his whole career. Lets not confuse playing for a lottery team being one dimensional.

Carry on.
How does your post in any way refute my statement? There are like billion facts that would back what I said. Just go dig them up yourself, because I don't need too. Of course you're just gonna ignore this but look up at his RAPM numbers and +/- statistics for those years. Everything points to him being amongst the potent offensive players, but in return one of the worst in defense. I'm talking Amare-esque level.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 06:47 AM

How does your post in any way refute my statement? There are like billion facts that would back what I said. Just go dig them up yourself, because I don't need too. Of course you're just gonna ignore this but look up at his RAPM numbers and +/- statistics for those years. Everything points to him being amongst the potent offensive players, but in return one of the worst in defense. I'm talking Amare-esque level.

Umm an explanation would be appreciated. I watched Kobe those years you see. Far from one dimensional. It's a different story when you play for a team capable of getting 60+ wins in a season vs. a lottery team. The idea that an all around player went one dimensional from one season to the next, flip switch back and forth puzzles my mind. If we can get something besides opinion, cliches and tales of old.

Sakkreth

07-15-2013, 06:50 AM

It's LeBron, but wow op is creative...

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 07:02 AM

It's LeBron, but wow op is creative...

In the playoffs/finals?

This guy....

http://limitedplaymakers.com/uploads/lakers_toronto_kobe_bryant_81_points1.jpg

vs.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/11416097/20130325_ter_ac6_442.0_standard_352.0.jpg

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 07:39 AM

This is really silly thread. All time I still would put kobe ahead career-wise, but in terms of peak kobe probably isn't even top 20 (and certainly not in the top 10), whereas LeBron (in terms of those I've seen play) is matched only by shaq and mj in their primes

To hammer this home, over the last 5 years LeBron has averaged .296 ws/48 and kobe's career high is .224. Likewise in the postseason LeBron's career average is ahead of all but one of kobe's runs. They are simply not comparable in terms of peak play.

EnoughSaid

07-15-2013, 09:08 AM

Not even close. LeBron better in every category except FGA and FT%.

Boston C's

07-15-2013, 09:08 AM

its a lot closer then lebron fans make it out to be...I don't understand the "its not even close" argument...do ppl really forget how dominant kobe was at his peak...for the record for anyone who knows about me posting knows I have no bias towards either player and I don't give a shit about the flak I'll get for this but give me kobe (slightly) over lebron

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 09:14 AM

LeBron and it really isn't close.

razzredazzre

07-15-2013, 09:20 AM

Kobe has the edge over LeBrick

Trollsmasher

07-15-2013, 09:21 AM

LeBron, not close

What is it with that trend of Magic 32 getting ethered in every thread I visit lately?:lol

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 09:27 AM

LeBron, not close

What is it with that trend of Magic 32 getting ethered in every thread I visit lately?:lol

Nothing. It's just you being delusional thinking he gets ethered in every thread.

Anyway Kobe and it ain't close.

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 09:27 AM

Kobe has the edge over LeBrick

In losing in the 1st round, rape accusations, and trade demands, definitely. LeBron is no where near Kobe in those departments.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 09:28 AM

In losing in the 1st round, rape accusations, and trade demands, definitely. LeBron is no where near Kobe in those departments.

Nor is he in the rings department.

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 09:35 AM

Nor is he in the rings department.

Could give two shits about sidekicks rings. At the end of the day, LeBron will retire as the better player. And that is a fact.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 09:39 AM

I'll say peak Lebron because of his dominance in just about every facet of the game. It's really about what's important to you as a basketball lover. Do you rate scoring so high that no other part of the game matters or do you rate scoring high, but also factor in other parts of basketball.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 09:48 AM

The recent timeline of NBA peaks reads: MJ 91...Shaq 2001...Duncan 2003...Lebron 2011

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 10:06 AM

Could give two shits about sidekicks rings. At the end of the day, LeBron will retire as the better player. And that is a fact.

If there is such thing as sidekick rings then there is such thing as asterisk rings. That much is a fact.

fact
/fakt/
Noun
A thing that is indisputably the case.
Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.

Synonyms
reality - deed - actuality - truth - case - circumstance.

So 5 > 2. is also a fact. It's also a fact that grampa Duncan choked the Finals with 50 secs to go with a 5 pt lead to gift Ray Allen a ring which Lebron then claimed to be his. It's also a fact that playing with Summer BFF Durant in a shortened season makes Lebron's first ring just as much a fluke as his second one.

Lebron's peak would be better addressed as 2009 rather than 2012-13. Even then by Lebron's own admittance he wasn't better than Kobe. It's hard to argue against the words of the idol himself.

BoutPractice

07-15-2013, 10:17 AM

If you're going by metrics, LeBron clearly has the overall statistical edge at his peak - everything from plain raw stats to advanced stats.

Some people however don't believe in metrics, which I can understand. Still, if you're going by the eye test, you'll notice that peak Kobe destroys teams with his scoring alone (his defense is great but it takes a backseat when he's in scoring mode), whereas LeBron, at his absolute peak, dominates every facet of the game while still being able to take over as a scorer. In particular, Kobe can score better than LeBron, but he's not as good at scoring AND facilitating at the same time - for him, it's one or the other, because he sees the game differently.

Essentially, if both players had their "ideal" game, peak LeBron would give you a 60 point triple double while covering 3/4 different players, and Kobe would break Wilt's record.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 10:18 AM

If there is such thing as sidekick rings then there is such thing as asterisk rings. That much is a fact.

fact
/fakt/
Noun
A thing that is indisputably the case.
Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.

Synonyms
reality - deed - actuality - truth - case - circumstance.

So 5 > 2. is also a fact. It's also a fact that grampa Duncan choked the Finals with 50 secs to go with a 5 pt lead to gift Ray Allen a ring which Lebron then claimed to be his. It's also a fact that playing with Summer BFF Durant in a shortened season makes Lebron's first ring just as much a fluke as his second one.

Lebron's peak would be better addressed as 2009 rather than 2012-13. Even then by Lebron's own admittance he wasn't better than Kobe. It's hard to argue against the words of the idol himself.

The thing about it is that if Kobe had in fact won at least 1 FMVP then i would have no problem with saying Kobe's quality of rings 5 is better than the quality of Lebron's 2 rings. If that's the case then Horry's 7 are better than both. All of his and he was never the focal point, but that's the same with Kobe's first 3. You could plug any other really good SG and I think it would end up with the same outcome.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 10:24 AM

What is it with that trend of Magic 32 getting ethered in every thread I visit lately?:lol

Another Gilbert Arenas fan?

Pick up your feces and read the thread again dumbo.

Chrono90

07-15-2013, 10:26 AM

Lebron has a better all around game at his peak such as passing and rebounding. Kobe wasn't just a better scorer. He was also a better competitor, a better closer and not afraid to take the shot. Kobe had more heart.

Lebron was a better stat eater in his peak while Kobe was a cold-blooded killer.

Everyone's going to have a different opinion. i'm going to pick the killer.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 10:32 AM

The thing about it is that if Kobe had in fact won at least 1 FMVP then i would have no problem with saying Kobe's quality of rings 5 is better than the quality of Lebron's 2 rings. If that's the case then Horry's 7 are better than both. All of his and he was never the focal point, but that's the same with Kobe's first 3. You could plug any other really good SG and I think it would end up with the same outcome.
http://spotlightauthentics.com/kobe-signed-print-autograph-photo-trophies-1.jpg
I am pretty sure he has 2 for the lack of one. BTW, after his peak unfortunately. Would have been a dream to watch 06-07 Kobe play with the 08-09 squad. The tear on the league would have been glorious.

The fact that Shaq had FMVP in both 2001 and 2002 has been well documented by Fisher. Kobe basically followed what Phil wanted and let Shaq have it by dominating the East weak front court. Fisher, the guy behind close doors witnessing it all. Unless Fisher is a liar, why would he?

I think that's called being a teammate and doing what's best to win. Sacrifice and not choke aka 2011?

EnoughSaid

07-15-2013, 10:33 AM

LeBron's peak will go down as one of the greatest of all time and possibly the greatest for a SF ever. He has to up right up there with MJ, Shaq, Duncan, etc. for one of the best seasons ever.

EnoughSaid

07-15-2013, 10:35 AM

I am pretty sure he has 2 for the lack of one. BTW, after his peak unfortunately. Would have been a dream to watch 06-07 Kobe play with the 08-09 squad. The tear on the league would have been glorious.

You sure about that? I think Kobe became a better overall player in that 2008-2009 season, becoming a better playmaker and playing some great defense. I don't think the Lakers would have had quiet the same success.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 10:36 AM

http://spotlightauthentics.com/kobe-signed-print-autograph-photo-trophies-1.jpg
I am pretty sure he has 2 for the lack of one. BTW, after his peak unfortunately. Would have been a dream to watch 06-07 Kobe play with the 08-09 squad. The tear on the league would have been glorious.

The fact that Shaq had FMVP in both 2001 and 2002 has been well documented by Fisher. Kobe basically followed what Phil wanted and let Shaq have it by dominating the East weak front court. Fisher, the guy behind close doors witnessing it all.

So like I said, if he had won one during the first 3 then it would be a lot better. Shaq dominated the front court. They weren't weak in the back court. Kobe wouldn't have dominated like Shaq. It's almost like you're saying it's a bad thing that Phil Jackson is a smart coach.

Edit

Ahhh just went back and read what I typed. I meant so say during the first 3.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 10:39 AM

So like I said, if he had won one during the first 3 then it would be a lot better. Shaq dominated the front court. They weren't weak in the back court. Kobe wouldn't have dominated like Shaq. It's almost like you're saying it's a bad thing that Phil Jackson is a smart coach.

I can't think of any player outside of peak Jordan that would make Shaq a second option.

And Kobe almost did against the Spurs (2001).

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 10:42 AM

http://spotlightauthentics.com/kobe-signed-print-autograph-photo-trophies-1.jpg
I am pretty sure he has 2 for the lack of one. BTW, after his peak unfortunately. Would have been a dream to watch 06-07 Kobe play with the 08-09 squad. The tear on the league would have been glorious.

The fact that Shaq had FMVP in both 2001 and 2002 has been well documented by Fisher. Kobe basically followed what Phil wanted and let Shaq have it by dominating the East weak front court. Fisher, the guy behind close doors witnessing it all. Unless Fisher is a lying, why would he?

I think that's called being a teammate and doing what's best to win. Sacrifice and not choke aka 2011?

Hey a bad series happens from time to time. Even then though, I look at the entire game. There's more to basketball than just scoring for me. I value all the other aspects as well. When Dallas switched up their defenses in the 4th, LeBron and Spo both didn't know how to combat that. The Mavericks put in some tremendous schemes. I loved them. It was great to see.

Although I don't know what this has to do with better overall peaks.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 10:44 AM

I can't think of any player outside of peak Jordan that would make Shaq a second option.

And Kobe almost did against the Spurs (2001).

Man I'd have MJ as a second option in a heartbeat. If prime LeBron played with prime Shaq I'd have LeBron as a 2nd option in a heartbeat. If Jesus played with prime Shaq, I'd have Jesus as the 2nd option in a heartbeat. The thing why I mention the second option thing is because 3 of Kobe's 5 rings he was the second option so I don't really use those as a leg up on LeBron if I'm looking at skill level.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 10:45 AM

You sure about that? I think Kobe became a better overall player in that 2008-2009 season, becoming a better playmaker and playing some great defense. I don't think the Lakers would have had quiet the same success.

When he dislocated his finger in Nov/Dec of 2008, it took away a lot of his skills (ball handling especially).

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 10:46 AM

I can't think of any player outside of peak Jordan that would make Shaq a second option.

And Kobe almost did against the Spurs (2001).

Not almost, he did.

You sure about that? I think Kobe became a better overall player in that 2008-2009 season, becoming a better playmaker and playing some great defense. I don't think the Lakers would have had quiet the same success.

He was a better defender in 04 if you ask me. More agile, better lateral movement. Lockdown mentality. As for playmaking. Kobe has been always up and down and it's more on the roster and circumstances than anything. In 03 he averaged 6.9 RPG and 5.9 APG. In 04, 5.5, 5.1 respectively.

With the exception of his first 3 years Kobe has been the primary playmaker for his team. From 2001 and onwards marking the shift. Not that the triangle offence requires the use of a playmaker as much a Nash/D'Antoni offense or Miami's offense with Lebron for example.

lilgodfather1

07-15-2013, 10:51 AM

I've said this before, and i'll say it again. If you take Kobe's career high number in EVERY single statistical category (PARBS%) the stats are comparable to LeBron's average. There is no contest here.

Kobe's never been considered a great player because of a dominant peak. His calling card has been his terrific longevity.

What is considered Kobe's peak anyways? '06-'08 He was the best player in the league for MAYBE 2 of those years... LeBron on the other hand has half a decade or more of being the best in the league, and the MVP's to prove it.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 10:53 AM

Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq and Duncan all had top 2-3 teams at their peak.

We will never know how dominate Kareem, Kobe and Wilt could have been in a similar situation.

Kobe's peak was 06-08.

In that period he had one year with a top team, that was 08.

Rsult? MVP and finals appearance (and until the last 3 games against Boston, the best playoff run of his career)

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 11:00 AM

Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq and Duncan all had a top 2-3 team in their prime.

We will never know how dominate Kareem, Kobe and Wilt could have been in a similar situation.

Shhhiiiiidddd we seen how great Kobe was after he got Shaq traded. The man couldn't be stopped. You can say shot jacking or whatever the hell, but that's domination. The team accomplisments sucked ass then because Kobe isn't a great leader, but his individual performance was superb. The only time I look at team accomplishments is when people bring up the rings stuff.

Jameerthefear

07-15-2013, 11:01 AM

also this is a bad comparison since Kobe didn't play with another superstar in his prime...

Nash

07-15-2013, 11:01 AM

Even in the clutch Lebron is better, the only thing KObe fans used to talk about. Lebron is the leader in NBA history in ppg in game 7's and just had a 37 game in a game 7 of the NBA feckin' finals.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 11:02 AM

Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Shaq and Duncan all had a top 2-3 team in their prime.

We will never know how dominate Kareem, Kobe and Wilt could have been in a similar situation.

:facepalm Please, Kobe was surrounded by all-nba talent when he was 24 or so in 2004 and then we saw him surrounded by great talent again in 2008.

He went a full 3 years of his entire career not being surrounded by GOAT talent. :oldlol:

Nash

07-15-2013, 11:03 AM

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:05 AM

Shhhiiiiidddd we seen how great Kobe was after he got Shaq traded. The man couldn't be stopped. You can say shot jacking or whatever the hell, but that's domination. The team accomplisments sucked ass then because Kobe isn't a great leader, but his individual performance was superb. The only time I look at team accomplishments is when people bring up the rings stuff.

I think with a great team, Kobe could have spread those 35,5,5 around a bit more judiciously.

I also think Kobe would have been greater in the clutch.

He pretty much destroyed his clutch statistics between 05 and 07, no trusting anyone and constantly being gassed at the end of games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx645z6Kf3g

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:07 AM

:facepalm Please, Kobe was surrounded by all-nba talent when he was 24 or so in 2004 and then we saw him surrounded by great talent again in 2008.

He went a full 3 years of his entire career not being surrounded by GOAT talent. :oldlol:

Kobe looked like a skinny kid in 2004. He was not himself mentally or physically.

And those 3 years you speak of, that was his peak years.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 11:08 AM

Hey a bad series happens from time to time. Even then though, I look at the entire game. There's more to basketball than just scoring for me. I value all the other aspects as well. When Dallas switched up their defenses in the 4th, LeBron and Spo both didn't know how to combat that. The Mavericks put in some tremendous schemes. I loved them. It was great to see.

Although I don't know what this has to do with better overall peaks.

That indeed has nothing to do with overall peaks. I consider Lebron's 07 Finals series a real bad series. 2013 is a toss up depending on how you look at it. Kobe's real bad series is 2004(the rape year) and you could make 2008 a toss up. 2000 is well known what a dirty Pacer did to him 2 games into the series. I cannot however consider Lebron's 2011 a bad series, it was a straight up choke. I do give credit to the Mavs defense but lets not overrate it either.

He pretty much destroyed his clutch statistics between 05 and 07, no trusting anyone and constantly being gassed at the end of games.

That's what happens when you try to get a lottery team into the playoffs.

:facepalm Please, Kobe was surrounded by all-nba talent when he was 24 or so in 2004 and then we saw him surrounded by great talent again in 2008.

He went a full 3 years of his entire career not being surrounded by GOAT talent. :oldlol:

You have the greatest chance of success as a player in your peak years (those 3 years). I wouldn't care two shits if Kobe spent the first 4-5 years of his career with a shitty supporting cast if that guaranteed a decent supporting cast for the rest. 1 Hall of Fame teammate per title. Kobe the one and only. But that goes besides the realm of being a Laker anyway.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 11:24 AM

Kobe looked like a skinny kid in 2004. He was not himself mentally or physically.

And those 3 years you speak of, that was his peak years.

Yeah, and since he didn't have any super-stars next to him, he had the liberty of having the majority of plays drawn up for him, which could have made him look better than he would have if he didn't have that liberty just as much playing with no super-stars could have made him look worse.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:28 AM

Yeah, and since he didn't have any super-stars next to him, he had the liberty of having the majority of plays drawn up for him, which could have made him look better than he would have if he didn't have that liberty just as much playing with no super-stars could have made him look worse.

04 was the Fab Four year.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 11:30 AM

04 was the Fab Four year.

He wasn't mentally right - as was that whole team. The drama was already building up and the rape scandal just took it to a new level - the whole team, not just Kobe + the injuries. But to say Kobe was in bad shape physically? In what hole are you trying to dig yourself into? He played solid defense, and had great playoff series here and there. LA just met the wrong team in the Finals. A physical and suffocating defense that targets that - your brain.

branslowski

07-15-2013, 11:33 AM

:facepalm Please, Kobe was surrounded by all-nba talent when he was 24 or so in 2004 and then we saw him surrounded by great talent again in 2008.

He went a full 3 years of his entire career not being surrounded by GOAT talent. :oldlol:

Why do you dumb ppl make these post? In 04' he wasnt surrounded by talent...Malone and Payton were both past their dominant primes, gtfo with this statement. If you gonna make dumb statements like this, then wen Shaq played with LeBron, LeBron had goat dominant center.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:35 AM

He wasn't mentally right - as was that whole team. The drama was already building up and the rape scandal just took it to a new level - the whole team, not just Kobe + the injuries. But to say Kobe was in bad shape physically? In what hole are you trying to dig yourself into?

2003
http://chriswalder26.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/kobe-bryant-060109h_1.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qf8heZGkog

2004
http://nbcsportsmedia1.msnbc.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040528/040528_malonebryant_vmed_4p.standard.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDKzxwX2lHE

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 11:36 AM

04 was the Fab Four year.

Wut.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:38 AM

Wut.

2003-04 was the Malone, Payton, Shaq, Kobe year.

Are you not talking about his first "solo" year (2004-05)?

trabash

07-15-2013, 11:42 AM

better peak, Lebron vs. Kobe

How is this even a discussion? :oldlol:

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 11:43 AM

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 11:45 AM

2003-04 was the Malone, Payton, Shaq, Kobe year.

Are you not talking about his first "solo" year (2004-05)?

I was talking about 2005 up until the Gasol trade. And your whole premise that playing with no other stars makes you look much worse.

I said that there are as many reasons that being your teams only star could make you look better (most of the plays are drawn up for you...you get the ball where you want it and when you want it...you get all game to establish a rhythm...you don't have to defer to anyone else) as there are reasons that that would make you look worse (the defense is zoned in all on you...you have to do so much that by the end of the game you are very fatigued...your passing skills don't look as good since you don't have any stars to pass to).

And anyway, we all take the context (who your teammates are, health, etc) into consideration and we watch the games.

And Lebron in 2012 (and even 2009) was the best peak we've seen since 2003 Duncan and 2001 Shaq.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:50 AM

Is this thread for serious? LeBron has now led the league in PER and WS for the last 6 and 5 years respectively. The list of people who have achieved this: Jordan and Wilt. Kobe's best streak? He placed third in PER once.

C'mon.

PER didn't help him against the Spurs, doing his sumo post-plays and clanking shot 85% of the series.

Peak play should be measured against real competition.

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 11:53 AM

Laker fans, do you feel that well all is said and done Kobe will be remembered as the better player 20-30 years from now?

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:54 AM

And your whole premise that playing with no other stars makes you look much worse.

Pretty much (especially when you play guard).

And not only did Kobe not play with a star, he played on a bad team.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 11:55 AM

PER didn't help him against the Spurs, doing his sumo post-plays and clanking shot 85% of the series.

Peak play should be measured against real competition.

His Peak was 09. In 09 he wasn't better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

Pretty much (especially when you play guard).

And not only did Kobe not play with a star, he played on a bad team.

Lol Yes and NO. If you play on a bad team you're going to have little success. If you play on a bad team one stat might be inflated while another takes a toll. Depends on the circumstance. It's hard to get your assist up if you teammates can hardly make a bucket when open. Then again all circumstantial and based on the roster. So your answer is not definitive. It's subjective. You could potentially see a scorer score more. Or a good rebounder rebound more.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 11:58 AM

His Peak was 09. In 09 he wasn't better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

I agree.

Lebron's "skills" were better suited for his 09 athleticism.

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 12:01 PM

His Peak was 09. In 09 he wasn't better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

No, it is not. Just because he had better stats on a mediocre team does not mean he was better at all.

His peak is 2012-now. There's really no telling how long it will last, but it will probably be next season and maybe a couple after that.

In comparison to 09, he has a better post game, a more consistent and reliable jump shot (still not great) and a better 3 point shot. His understanding and management of the game is also quite superior.

Anyway, for the topic, peak LeBron is better. He just has more impact on the game as a whole.

Regardless, 09-current LeBron is better than Kobe has ever been.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 12:08 PM

No, it is not. Just because he had better stats on a mediocre team does not mean he was better at all.

His peak is 2012-now. There's really no telling how long it will last, but it will probably be next season and maybe a couple after that.

In comparison to 09, he has a better post game, a more consistent and reliable jump shot (still not great) and a better 3 point shot. His understanding and management of the game is also quite superior.

Anyway, for the topic, peak LeBron is better. He just has more impact on the game as a whole.

Regardless, 09-current LeBron is better than Kobe has ever been.

He didn't just have better stats.....he had better stats against better competition, against better defenses, the 08-10 Celtics. He was much faster and deadlier at the rim. His jumpshot has improved slightly(but little - quote his FG% in the perimeter and let me know of the difference) and his post game is still shaky and barely used. Lets not confuse success by playing with Wade and all-star Bosh + his stacked cast with "PEAK" play.

For instance Kobe developed his post game fully in 08-09, 09-10. 08-10 wasn't Kobe's peak. Mixing success and experience + slight improvement in skills =/= peak. His stacked cast makes him control the game much easier today, against weaker competition, being more mature and experienced. Again, not Peak.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:09 PM

Anyway, for the topic, peak LeBron is better. He just has more impact on the game as a whole.

Regardless, 09-current LeBron is better than Kobe has ever been.

What good it is to have more impact, when you have these mind-numbing stretches of choking, at the most inopportune times.

10 Game 5 and 6
11 Finals
13 Finals (game 1-5,5)

Shouldn't metal strength be part of this discussion.

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 12:10 PM

And Kobe almost did against the Spurs (2001).

Anytime anyone tries to make prime shaq anything other than the first option, it is to the vast detriment of the team cf 2004.

Look Kobe is a great player but you love him way too much.

plowking

07-15-2013, 12:11 PM

PER didn't help him against the Spurs, doing his sumo post-plays and clanking shot 85% of the series.

Peak play should be measured against real competition.

I like how you're using a series where Lebron averaged 25/11/7 and won as a testament of him failing or something. :oldlol:

You must set the bar a hell of a lot higher for him than Kobe. Says enough about this argument. :oldlol:

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:14 PM

Anytime anyone tries to make prime shaq anything other than the first option, it is to the vast detriment of the team cf 2004.

Kobe was no good in 04. One of his worst years.

Bad sample test.

And I don't see how it was hurting the Lakers against the Spurs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkvpnmAk2xU

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 12:14 PM

Anytime anyone tries to make prime shaq anything other than the first option, it is to the vast detriment of the team cf 2004.

Look Kobe is a great player but you love him way too much.

In 01 against the Spurs he was the best and more effective option. If there is anything that could ever come close to that kind of impact on the same floor with Shaq. Kobe was the better scorer on the road and had the most impact. Unique for the match up that were the Spurs anyway.

branslowski

07-15-2013, 12:15 PM

Laker fans, do you feel that well all is said and done Kobe will be remembered as the better player 20-30 years from now?

Actually he will...Solely because hes done things on the court scoring wise that most will never see again. Say wat you want about Kobe, but he's put on some of the greatest scoring displays this game has seen aside from Wilt. But with Wilt, his scoring dominance wasn't put up on youtube and other web outlets.

Scoring isn't the only thing, but in this game its most important.

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 12:18 PM

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:18 PM

I like how you're using a series where Lebron averaged 25/11/7 and won as a testament of him failing or something. :oldlol:

You must set the bar a hell of a lot higher for him than Kobe. Says enough about this argument. :oldlol:

So you think he was just terrific in the first 5 games.

Jordan/Shaq/Hakeem/Magic/Bird level playing?

His rebound and assists numbers are always going to be good, but before the last game, he was exposed yet again as a scorer.

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 12:21 PM

He didn't just have better stats.....he had better stats against better competition, against better defenses, the 08-10 Celtics. He was much faster and deadlier at the rim. His jumpshot has improved slightly(but little - quote his FG% in the perimeter and let me know of the difference) and his post game is still shaky and barely used. Lets not confuse success by playing with Wade and all-star Bosh + his stacked cast with "PEAK" play.

For instance Kobe developed his post game fully in 08-09, 09-10. 08-10 wasn't Kobe's peak. Mixing success and experience + slight improvement in skills =/= peak. His stacked cast makes him control the game much easier today, against weaker competition, being more mature and experienced. Again, not Peak.

I'm fairly sure the stats speak of how much of a better perimeter shooter LeBron has become, especially in the midrange and 3 point. That's really important because it was far more unreliable in his Cavs days.

LeBron has lost some of his speed since 09, but he's gained more strength and is more active in the post and is a better rebounder now. He has focused his game more in the inside now, not handling the ball all the time from the perimeter. His shot selection has improved, his basketball IQ has improved, his shot has improved. Not something that can be seen through stats alone, but any person without an agenda (i.e. you saying that 09 was his peak because you use that video as evidence) will tell you that this LeBron is the best LeBron we've seen.

Better defense? In 09, he didn't play the Celtics in the playoffs and they lost KG. He's had to face Chicago, Indiana and SAS in the past two seasons (Indiana twice) which are very very good defensive teams. Don't see how the competition he's faced is all that much better back then.

And, yes, he's had a better team, but to deny LeBron credit for being by far the best player and biggest reason they have triumphed these last two seasons is going even further than you Kobe trolls are willing to go, I assume.

What good it is to have more impact, when you have these mind-numbing stretches of choking, at the most inopportune times.

10 Game 5 and 6
11 Finals
13 Finals (game 1-5,5)

Shouldn't metal strength be part of this discussion.

I said his peak is 12-13 LeBron, so far.

At least you've admitted he didn't choke in the 12 playoffs. Although you might want to elucidate us on how well he played in that playoffs.

In the NBA finals... sure he wasn't great. But... uh... game 7? No comment about that I assume.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 12:21 PM

That indeed has nothing to do with overall peaks. I consider Lebron's 07 Finals series a real bad series. 2013 is a toss up depending on how you look at it. Kobe's real bad series is 2004(the rape year) and you could make 2008 a toss up. 2000 is well known what a dirty Pacer did to him 2 games into the series. I cannot however consider Lebron's 2011 a bad series, it was a straight up choke. I do give credit to the Mavs defense but lets not overrate it either.

See to me choking is missing a ton of shots, a ton of turnovers, failing on defense etc. They shut him down from scoring on his drives and they exploited him not having a post up game. He was still making smart passes and playing good defense. Again though, I value everything on the court and not just scoring. The Mavericks defensive scheme was one of the best I had ever seen. It was gutsy that they tried it though. I also think it was beyond amazing that they only did it in the 4th quarters.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 12:24 PM

And, yes, he's had a better team, but to deny LeBron credit for being by far the best player and biggest reason they have triumphed these last two seasons is going even further than you Kobe trolls are willing to go, I assume.

The thing that sticks out the most to me is that he's led this team in damn near every catagory. That's what the craziest thing to me is. Somebody else should leading the team in something important.

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 12:26 PM

Anyway, the stats.

In the 12-13 reg + post season:

16 ft to <3-pt = 44.4%
3-pt = 39.7%

08-09 reg + post season:

16 ft to <3-pt = 40.3%
3-pt = 34.2%

Not to mention he was also a statistically better finisher at the rim in 12-13 (75.6% vs 72.4%)

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 12:27 PM

In 01 against the Spurs he was the best and more effective option. If there is anything that could ever come close to that kind of impact on the same floor with Shaq. Kobe was the better scorer on the road and had the most impact. Unique for the match up that were the Spurs anyway.

It was one of kobe's best series, and perhaps one of the only times it was justified not playing through shaq (because of the spurs tremendous interior defense). But there are lots of other examples of Kobe going for glory when shaq was killing their opponents. But yeah I agree that Kobe is one of a very small number of player who could have done it.

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 12:28 PM

Actually he will...Solely because hes done things on the court scoring wise that most will never see again. Say wat you want about Kobe, but he's put on some of the greatest scoring displays this game has seen aside from Wilt. But with Wilt, his scoring dominance wasn't put up on youtube and other web outlets.

Scoring isn't the only thing, but in this game its most important.

Delusional.

plowking

07-15-2013, 12:29 PM

So you think he was just terrific in the first 5 games.

Jordan/Shaq/Hakeem/Magic/Bird level playing?

His rebound and assists numbers are always going to be good, but before the last game, he was exposed yet again as a scorer.

He was great in games 4, 6 and 7. Decent in game 1, slightly passive.

And for as bad as his stats are in game 2, he was the catalyst for the huge run we went on, which actually settled the game.

What do you mean by that level of playing? Are you saying those legends didn't have bad games? Bird had single digit scoring games in the finals. Magic had some absolute shockers where he turned the ball over 3 times straight at the end of games, losing it simply off of his poor play. Jordan had some stinkers too.

The second half of that series for Bron was as good as you can expect. In the last 4 games he averaged 32/10/7 on 48% FG and 43% 3PT shooting. I'd say that's playing like an all time great.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:33 PM

I said his peak is 12-13 LeBron, so far.

At least you've admitted he didn't choke in the 12 playoffs. Although you might want to elucidate us on how well he played in that playoffs.

In the NBA finals... sure he wasn't great. But... uh... game 7? No comment about that I assume.

33% batting average is not that impressive (at your peak).

And game 7 you ask....

Thanks god for Wade (game 4) and Allen (game 6), extending the series long enough for the Spurs to wear down, and Lebron to finally hit the Spurs jumpshot lottery (the disrespectful defensive strategy against a prerimiter superstar I have ever seen).

I wonder if you would be as impressed with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan or Kobe struggling for 85% of a series.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:40 PM

He was great in games 4, 6 and 7. Decent in game 1, slightly passive.

He was surely not great in game 4 and 6 (or decent in game 1).

For every good play he made in game 6, he had two or three bad ones.

His unbelievable passiveness in the first three quarters. His total meltdown in the last 4 min. of regulation.

And if he was great in game 4, why did it take him 4 min. of shameless stat-padding to make him look as good as his second option?

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 12:43 PM

33% batting average is not that impressive (at your peak).

And game 7 you ask....

Thanks god for Wade (game 4) and Allen (game 6), extending the series long enough for the Spurs to wear down, and Lebron to finally hit the Spurs jumpshot lottery (the disrespectful defensive strategy against a prerimiter superstar I have ever seen).

I wonder if you would be as impressed with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan or Kobe struggling for 85% of a series.

LeBron didn't play well in game 4?

LeBron didn't drag his team from the abyss in the fourth quarter of game 6? Yes, before you mention it, he did commit 2 late game turnovers which are inexcusable, but he did also nail a 3 point shot to put Allen in a position where he can tie the game. He also finished with the 30 point triple double, scoring like 18 points in the 4th quarter and over time.

Look, it wasn't a great performance. It wasn't as good as 2012 finals, and it wasn't that great compared to the legends. But with all the pressure on him, and his jumpshot not working, he dominated the Spurs in game 7. He made them pay with his jumpshot, ironically defeating Pop with the very game plan he relied on LeBron to fail. And he sunk that clutch dagger with 40 seconds to go and 2 FTs after that to essentially seal the game for them. Bigger shots than Kobe has ever made.

Ultimately, LeBron will be judged on rings. And he's won 2 in a row, being the biggest reason the Heat won both.

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 12:44 PM

PER didn't help him against the Spurs, doing his sumo post-plays and clanking shot 85% of the series.

Peak play should be measured against real competition.

Look. You can cherry pick whatever you want and even THAT is going to say LeBron is better. Lets JUST look at career playoffs since that is what you seem to be implying. LeBron has not missed the second round of the playoffs since his 21st BDay. His playoff PER is 27.2. Kobe's is 22.4. In fact, Kobe has never had a playoff run with a better PER than LeBron's avg.

Its just not close. PER rewards quantity shooting. Yet LeBron laps Kobe in playoff results.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 12:51 PM

Lets JUST look at career playoffs since that is what you seem to be implying. LeBron has not missed the second round of the playoffs since his 21st BDay. His playoff PER is 27.2. Kobe's is 22.4.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/wizards/smallbig3.jpg

Don't you just love the benefits of playing in the eastern conference.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061129

SilkkTheShocker

07-15-2013, 12:55 PM

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/1219/la_g_butler_bryant_576.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/standings/_/year/2005

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 12:55 PM

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/wizards/smallbig3.jpg

Don't you just love the benefits of playing in the eastern conference.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061129

Lebron's career stats against the west are the same. Eastern defenses have if anything been better recently.

You need to turn your obsession with Kobe into something constructive.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 01:03 PM

Lebron's career stats against the west are the same. Eastern defenses have if anything been better recently.

You need to turn your obsession with Kobe into something constructive.

Right.

Lebron would have done great things in the western conference.

No benefits playing in the east.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m30vmaeGgN1qcmnsoo1_500.gif

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 01:05 PM

Right.

Lebron would have done great things in the western conference.

No benefits playing in the east.

Weren't you categorically shown yesterday how LeBron performs better against the Western teams than the Eastern teams (overall)? Why bring it up again?

The bitterness you hold towards this man is unhealthy.

LikeABosh

07-15-2013, 01:06 PM

Lebron is the undisputed king of the NBA. Has Kobe ever been the best in the league for even 1 season?

RoundMoundOfReb

07-15-2013, 01:11 PM

LeBron and not particularly close. I don't think anybody who isn't a known Kobe/Laker stan or LeBron hater would disagree.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 01:13 PM

Weren't you categorically shown yesterday how LeBron performs better against the Western teams than the Eastern teams (overall)? Why bring it up again?

The bitterness you hold towards this man is unhealthy.

I said yesterday that he was shut down against the the top teams in the east.

And he was: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=2007&year_max=2007&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=CLE&opp_id=DET&is_playoffs=N&round_is_eds=Y&round_is_edf=Y&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wds=Y&round_is_wdf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=21&c2stat=pts&c2comp=lt&c2val=30&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

Unfortunately, I had forgotten that there only was 2 good teams in the east in 2007 (Detroit and Cleveland).

And if you think Lebron would be as succesful in the west as he was in the east.....I ......I don't know what to say.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 01:15 PM

I'm fairly sure the stats speak of how much of a better perimeter shooter LeBron has become.

The stats are bleak and I wouldn't be surprised if there is little to no improvement (perimeter jump shooting). They have been quoted a couple times. A better team does wonders but again.

And, yes, he's had a better team, but to deny LeBron credit for being by far the best player and biggest reason they have triumphed these last two seasons is going even further than you Kobe trolls are willing to go, I assume.

No one will deny that Lebron has been the best player in this league from 2011 -2013. I however wouldn't claim 2011-2013 to be his "peak". 2009-2010 was. 2009 being the best all around. And he did play against better competition. The 08, 10 Celtics were better than 2012 Thunder and the 09 Magic better than the 13' Spurs with grandpa Duncan, hobbled Parker and disabled Ginobli on their last hurrah. The ECF playoffs have been a joke to say the least - worse than in 08-10. You couple that with the team he has now and that's the dominance you see + the experience of course. Again not peak. Lebron has always been a good rebounder. He actually had some bigs in Cleveland, better than Anthony anyway. Maybe that causes the wrong perception in rebounding to you. Playing PF more often these days.

joeysms55

07-15-2013, 01:21 PM

The stats are bleak and I wouldn't be surprised if there is little to no improvement. They have been quoted a couple times.

No one will deny that Lebron has been the best player in this league from 2011 -2013. I however wouldn't claim 2011-2013 to be his "peak". 2009-2010 was. 2009 being the best all around. And he did play against better competition. The 08, 10 Celtics were better than 2012 Thunder and the 09 Magic better than the 13' Spurs with grandpa Duncan, hobbled Parker and disabled Ginobli on their last hurrah. The ECF playoffs have been a joke to say the least - worse than in 08-10. You couple that with the team he has now and that's the dominance you see + the experience of course. Again not peak. Lebron has always been a good rebounder. He actually had some bigs in Cleveland, better than Anthony anyway. Maybe that causes the wrong perception in rebounding.

Too many excuses brah. 09 Magic<<13 Spurs. Did u start watching NBA last season?

Regarding about the no improvement in jumpshot
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNQWL9PCEAARNI7.png:large

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 01:26 PM

Too many excuses brah. 09 Magic<<13 Spurs. Did u start watching NBA last season?

Regarding about the no improvement in jumpshot
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNQWL9PCEAARNI7.png:large

Well, the 09 Magic were not very good at all.

08-10 should have been 3xLakers/Celtics.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 01:27 PM

Too many excuses brah. 09 Magic<<13 Spurs. Did u start watching NBA last season?

The difference between the 09 Magic and the 13 Spurs is simple. Lebron beasted against the 09 Magic and still failed. Lebron had an ok series with a couple rotten eggs against the Spurs and still won. That jump shooting is so great and improved that they baited him to use it and almost won the series if not for a choke with a 5 point lead, 50 secs to go in GM 6.

Somehiw grandpa Duncan, hobbled Parker and disabled Ginobli were better than the oiled machine that the Magic were.

BTW no one's critizing your boy here. Although that's my thing.

K Xerxes

07-15-2013, 01:30 PM

The stats are bleak and I wouldn't be surprised if there is little to no improvement (perimeter jump shooting). They have been quoted a couple times. A better team does wonders but again.

I quoted the stats, and you can see a 5% improvement in both his mid range and 3 point game. That's not significant?

No one will deny that Lebron has been the best player in this league from 2011 -2013. I however wouldn't claim 2011-2013 to be his "peak". 2009-2010 was. 2009 being the best all around. And he did play against better competition. The 08, 10 Celtics were better than 2012 Thunder and the 09 Magic better than the 13' Spurs with grandpa Duncan, hobbled Parker and disabled Ginobli on their last hurrah. The ECF playoffs have been a joke to say the least - worse than in 08-10. You couple that with the team he has now and that's the dominance you see + the experience of course. Again not peak. Lebron has always been a good rebounder. He actually had some bigs in Cleveland, better than Anthony anyway. Maybe that causes the wrong perception in rebounding to you. Playing PF more often these days.

I really shouldn't have got sucked into debating a troll like you... so I'll leave it at that. It's literally pointless. You kobe trolls can spew your anti LeBron propaganda till the cows come home, but it's not changing the reality that no one outside you deluded bunch believe a word of what you're saying.

joeysms55

07-15-2013, 01:30 PM

The difference between the 09 Magic and the 13 Spurs is simple. Lebron beasted against the 09 Magic and still failed. Lebron had an ok series with a couple rotten eggs against the Spurs and still won.

Like all players says "Its the finals no excuses." That 09 Magic team got hot and they were shooting their 3's like it is a free throw in the ECF. It was like the 11 Mavs

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 01:34 PM

Like all players says "Its the finals no excuses." That 09 Magic team got hot and they were shooting their 3's like it is a free throw in the ECF. It was like the 11 Mavs

So, no excuses. The Magic were better for whatever reasons you see fit :lol

"Hot" as you call it. Actually they were a 3pt shooting team, built for that.

Nash

07-15-2013, 01:39 PM

The funniest thing about the Kobe fans and their opinions about Lebron is that they expect things from Lebron that Kobe has never done.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 01:42 PM

The funniest thing about the Kobe fans and their opinions about Lebron is that they expect things from Lebron that Kobe has never done.

What has anyone expected Lebron to do that Kobe has never done? If you can mention it maybe I'll give you 2 seconds of my attention. The strawman and the crying begins.

I really shouldn't have got sucked into debating a troll like you... so I'll leave it at that. It's literally pointless. You kobe trolls can spew your anti LeBron propaganda till the cows come home, but it's not changing the reality that no one outside you deluded bunch believe a word of what you're saying.

I have yet to throw an insult, with my nice track record and you strike first? Damn I am hurt. The 09 Magic being better than the 13' Spurs is pretty much a fact. Better chemistry, got hot at the right time, were good defensively, were not as old, definitely didn't have their key star(Parker hobbled) and didn't have Ginobli playing like a scrub. Sorry but it ain't trolling, just the truth and you don't like it. You and I are done.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 01:43 PM

PER didn't help him against the Spurs, doing his sumo post-plays and clanking shot 85% of the series.

Peak play should be measured against real competition.

But it did help him over the first 75% (the first three rounds) of the playoffs.

Or does only the last series count because it's more important? :oldlol:

If so, then I guess the last two games against the Spurs are the ones that count more than the first 75% of that series. And Lebron was great in game 6 and especially game 7.

Either way, Lebron wins. He was great in the first three rounds, and great in the closing games of the Finals. :rockon:

chazzy

07-15-2013, 01:43 PM

'09 and most of '10 Lebron were his best versions and those were better than any Kobe year. I'm not as big on Miami Lebron as most people are

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 01:49 PM

Either way, Lebron wins. He was great in the first three rounds, and great in the closing games of the Finals. :rockon:

Can't wait for Rose, Rondo, Granger and no Bucks next year.

And you just described Kobe's run in 2008. But nobody bailed him out in the finals (or gave him a chance to play a game 7).

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 01:50 PM

'09 and most of '10 Lebron were his best versions and those were better than any Kobe year. I'm not as big on Miami Lebron as most people are

Statistically All-around Yes. Being the better player is another story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

Can't wait for Rose, Rondo, Granger and no Bucks next year.

Heat might 3-peat. I ain't worried. You worry to much. Work them slow.

RoundMoundOfReb

07-15-2013, 01:53 PM

Lebron's best years:
2013
2009
2010
2012
2011
2008

That's how i rank his abilities as a player not his success necessarily.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 01:59 PM

Lebron's best years:
2013
2009
2010
2012
2011
2008

That's how i rank his abilities as a player not his success necessarily.

You think 08 was better than 07?

RRR3

07-15-2013, 02:01 PM

Right.

Lebron would have done great things in the western conference.

No benefits playing in the east.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m30vmaeGgN1qcmnsoo1_500.gif
*DeSagana Diop was in the West during Kobe's peak :oldlol:
*LeBron has the 3rd highest PPG ever, and 5th highest PPG in playoff history. He has never been "exposed" as a scorer in his life
*Stop acting like Kobe had those 60+ point games in the playoffs
*Gilbert Arenas, you know that scrub LeBron played against in the weak east, torched the shit out of "Peak" Kobe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDLjTq2QWc

RRR3

07-15-2013, 02:02 PM

Can't wait for Rose, Rondo, Granger and no Bucks next year.

And you just described Kobe's run in 2008. But nobody bailed him out in the finals (or gave him a chance to play a game 7).
That's ok, Fisher and MWP, respectively, "bailed him out" (using your logic) the next two years

Unbiased_one

07-15-2013, 02:03 PM

I quoted the stats, and you can see a 5% improvement in both his mid range and 3 point game. That's not significant?
.

Kobe stans have to show that the difference of 10% in fg% between LeBron and kobe is insignificant so of course 5% is nothing.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 02:03 PM

Can't wait for Rose, Rondo, Granger and no Bucks next year.

And you just described Kobe's run in 2008. But nobody bailed him out in the finals (or gave him a chance to play a game 7).

No. Kobe didn't have two great closing games in the Finals that year.

Not like it at all.

And lol at that bailing out statement... The Lakers lost the closing game in that Finals by 40 points. A late Derek Fisher step back three pointer would not have bailed Kobe out in that game...they woulda still lost by 37 :oldlol:

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 02:03 PM

Only on ISH where actually using your team in a team game is a knock against you.

LBJ 23

07-15-2013, 02:04 PM

Statistically All-around Yes. Being the better player is another story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

Even this year I have a hard time seeing Lebron say ''It's me'' or ''It's clearly me'' if he was asked the same question while I do believe that Kobe in his prime would say without any hesitation ''Oh, it's me, of course''. It's just the way they are as a human beings.

PickernRoller

07-15-2013, 02:21 PM

What do all of these people, found in this thread have in common? :lol

1. Tmac,
2. Enlax,
3. LBJ 23,
4. LikeBosh,
5. K Xerses,
6. Joey,
7. Nash,
8. Silk,
9. Plowking,
10. Hurricane kid,
11. Enough said,
12. Lilgodfather,
13. Trollsmasher,
14. D-wade316,
15. Dave3,
16. Kingbeasly,
17. second2nun(exposed this clown yesterday)
18. Pauk.
19. Cos88

Pathetic joke. Going as far as to claim Lebron's peak is 2012-2013 and discredit his "true" peak years, 2009-2010 because his boy at the time admitted what is is clear to any non-Lebron fan; Kobe was the better player and had the better peak. Good luck to you all agreeing with each other for that "popular" ISH opinion. Decided not to mention the Kobe haters from other teams also present in this thread, theBigVeto among others.

Stay salty fellas, stay salty.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 02:26 PM

And lol at that bailing out statement... The Lakers lost the closing game in that Finals by 40 points. A late Derek Fisher step back three pointer would not have bailed Kobe out in that game...they woulda still lost by 37 :oldlol:

But it would have bailed him out in game 2 and 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glLAqQD92wQ

And the way Lebron played for most of game 6, he deserved to be down by 40 (was it 3 of 12?).

Kobe was amazing until the last 3 games of the playoffs.

He just didn't have the luxury of sucking in 4 out of the first 5 games in the finals.

RoundMoundOfReb

07-15-2013, 02:27 PM

You think 08 was better than 07?
He had more success in 07 but he was a better player in 08 imo.

RoundMoundOfReb

07-15-2013, 02:29 PM

What do all of these people, found in this thread have in common? :lol

1. Tmac,
2. Enlax,
3. LBJ 23,
4. LikeBosh,
5. K Xerses,
6. Joey,
7. Nash,
8. Silk,
9. Plowking,
10. Hurricane kid,
11. Enough said,
12. Lilgodfather,
13. Trollsmasher,
14. D-wade316,
15. Dave3,
16. Kingbeasly,
17. second2nun(exposed this clown yesterday)

Pathetic joke. Going as far as to claim Lebron's peak is 2012-2013 and discredit his "true" peak years, 2009-2010 because his boy at the time admitted what is is clear to any non-Lebron fan; Kobe was the better player and had the better peak. Good luck to you all agreeing with each other for that "popular" ISH opinion. Decided not to mention the Kobe haters from other teams also present in this thread, theBigVeto among others.

Stay salty fellas, stay salty.

What do :

1. Magic 32
2. PickernRoller

Have in common?

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 02:30 PM

What do all of these people, found in this thread have in common? :lol

1. Tmac,
2. Enlax,
3. LBJ 23,
4. LikeBosh,
5. K Xerses,
6. Joey,
7. Nash,
8. Silk,
9. Plowking,
10. Hurricane kid,
11. Enough said,
12. Lilgodfather,
13. Trollsmasher,
14. D-wade316,
15. Dave3,
16. Kingbeasly,
17. second2nun(exposed this clown yesterday)

Pathetic joke. Going as far as to claim Lebron's peak is 2012-2013 and discredit his "true" peak years, 2009-2010 because his boy at the time admitted what is is clear to any non-Lebron fan; Kobe was the better player and had the better peak. Good luck to you all agreeing with each other for that "popular" ISH opinion. Decided not to mention the Kobe haters from other teams also present in this thread, theBigVeto among others.

Stay salty fellas, stay salty.

So because my opinion is different than yours I'm salty?

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 02:30 PM

He was surely not great in game 4 and 6

For every good play he made in game 6, he had two or three bad ones.

His unbelievable passiveness in the first three quarters. His total meltdown in the last 4 min. of regulation.

And if he was great in game 4, why did it take him 4 min. of shameless stat-padding to make him look as good as his second option?

LeBron's game 6: 32/10/11/3stl
Here is the list of games in Kobe's playoff career he has had 30/10/10 with 3+ steals:

Here is the list of games in Kobe's regular season career he has had 30/10/10 with 3 steals:

LeBron's game 4: 15/25 with 11 Reb, 4 asst, 2bl, 2stl
List of the playoff games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

List of the regular season games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

Don't worry about holding your monitor up to a special light. Its never happened. Neither one. But they are bad games for LeBron :rolleyes:

And I'm not forgiving some of the mistakes that were made. I'm simply suggesting that he is playing at an insanely high level and nitpicking his limited number of mistakes makes you look foolish.

What has anyone expected Lebron to do that Kobe has never done? If you can mention it maybe I'll give you 2 seconds of my attention. The strawman and the crying begins.

Shout out to PiknRola

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 02:33 PM

*DeSagana Diop was in the West during Kobe's peak :oldlol:
*LeBron has the 3rd highest PPG ever, and 5th highest PPG in playoff history. He has never been "exposed" as a scorer in his life
*Stop acting like Kobe had those 60+ point games in the playoffs
*Gilbert Arenas, you know that scrub LeBron played against in the weak east, torched the shit out of "Peak" Kobe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJDLjTq2QWc

Almost nothing compel me to respond (and I'm easy to get into a debate).

Kingwillball

07-15-2013, 02:34 PM

Lebron always has been the better player in some aspect. He was physically more gifted as a younger player and more dominant and complete in his prime.

Trollsmasher

07-15-2013, 02:35 PM

LeBron's game 6: 32/10/11/3stl
Here is the list of games in Kobe's playoff career he has had 30/10/10 with 3+ steals:

Here is the list of games in Kobe's regular season career he has had 30/10/10 with 3 steals:

LeBron's game 4: 15/25 with 11 Reb, 4 asst, 2bl, 2stl
List of the playoff games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

List of the regular season games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

Don't worry about holding your monitor up to a special light. Its never happened. Neither one. But they are bad games for LeBron :rolleyes:

And I'm not forgiving some of the mistakes that were made. I'm simply suggesting that he is playing at an insanely high level and nitpicking his limited number of mistakes makes you look foolish.:lol

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 02:38 PM

LeBron's game 6: 32/10/11/3stl
Here is the list of games in Kobe's playoff career he has had 30/10/10 with 3+ steals:

Here is the list of games in Kobe's regular season career he has had 30/10/10 with 3 steals:

LeBron's game 4: 15/25 with 11 Reb, 4 asst, 2bl, 2stl
List of the playoff games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

List of the regular season games Kobe has made 15+ FGA on 60% with 10reb and either 2 bl OR 2 stl:

Stats.......

congratulation.

And you can't help using game 4 huh?

Even this moron could see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwT5bOHkgC4

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 02:44 PM

:lol

Here is the list of games in Lebron's playoff career where he had 49 pts & 10 assists.

Kobe's game 1 vs Magic: 40 pts 8 reb 8 ast.
List of the finals games Lebron has scored 40 points

See I can do this too.

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 02:48 PM

Stats.......

congratulation.

And you can't help using game 4 huh?

Even this moron could see it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwT5bOHkgC4

I used G4 because someone said he played poorly in G4 and G6. So I used G4 and G6. The point is that you fellas keep moving the goal posts.

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 02:49 PM

Here is the list of games in Lebron's playoff career where he had 49 pts & 10 assists.

Kobe's game 1 vs Magic: 40 pts 8 reb 8 ast.
List of the finals games Lebron has scored 40 points

See I can do this too.

No. YOU chose those games. Not me.

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 02:53 PM

Kobe's game 1 vs Magic: 40 pts 8 reb 8 ast.
List of the finals games Lebron has scored 40 points

See I can do this too.

This is hilarious since LeBron AVG 38/8.5/8 for the SERIES against the same team just one week earlier.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 03:01 PM

This is hilarious since LeBron AVG 38/8.5/8 for the SERIES against the same team just one week earlier.

To bad he didn't do it in game 6.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 03:04 PM

I used G4 because someone said he played poorly in G4 and G6. So I used G4 and G6. The point is that you fellas keep moving the goal posts.

I said he didn't play great (read again).

He had a decent game. 24 points on 11 fg.

Nothing special, until he saw a great opportunity to help guys like you win shallow internet discussions about stats.

He stat padded shamelessly.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 03:15 PM

Are you two idiots really using one game?

Heavincent

07-15-2013, 03:18 PM

Not a fair question, as many people here started watching basketball after Lebron joined Miami, thus they didn't witness peak Kobe.

Not even trying to troll or be a dick. It's just the truth.

HurricaneKid

07-15-2013, 04:27 PM

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 04:32 PM

So when was Kobe's peak? I don't even know what the argument is. Is peak Kobe the one that didn't make the playoffs but scored 35+/gm? Or is it 08-10 when he won two titles without Shaq? Either way they are devoured by peak LBJ.

Kobe
Early years = on a great team
Peak = on a bad team
Later years = on a excellent team

Lebron
Early years = on a mediocre team
Peak = on a great team

Kobe never had the same opportunity.

Put this guy on 2013 Heat.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/158192/kobe-bryant-81-points_medium.jpg

:pimp:

tazb

07-15-2013, 04:35 PM

Soooo Kobe's peak = missing the playoffs/early first round exits/blowing 3-1 series leads away.

LeBron's peak = deep playoff runs, back-to-back MVPs/Championships/FinalsMVPs. How is this a question?

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 04:39 PM

Soooo Kobe's peak = missing the playoffs/early first round exits/blowing 3-1 series leads away.

LeBron's peak = deep playoff runs, back-to-back MVPs/Championships/FinalsMVPs. How is this a question?

http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/season_photos/season_2005_2006.jpg

vs.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb41wwdSFW1ruj0bpo1_1280.jpg

RRR3

07-15-2013, 04:51 PM

Almost nothing compel me to respond (and I'm easy to get into a debate).
I wasn't debating the OP, I was just pointing out your bs

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 04:54 PM

I wasn't debating the OP, I was just pointing out your bs

Still not compelled.

Mr Exlax

07-15-2013, 04:54 PM

Kobe
Early years = on a great team
Peak = on a bad team
Later years = on a excellent team

Lebron
Early years = on a mediocre team
Peak = on a great team

Kobe never had the same opportunity.

Put this guy on 2013 Heat.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/158192/kobe-bryant-81-points_medium.jpg

:pimp:

Both were on bad teams. You give the Cavs far too much credit.

If Kobe were on the 2013 Heat, would he be able to lead the team in all the catagories that Lebron did? That's the part that everybody leaves out. It's more to basketball than just scoring.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:01 PM

Both were on bad teams. You give the Cavs far too much credit.

If Kobe were on the 2013 Heat, would he be able to lead the team in all the catagories that Lebron did? That's the part that everybody leaves out. It's more to basketball than just scoring.

Did Jordan lead in all categories?

Kobe would surely lead in most (except maybe rebounding).

And scoring.........man.

And the Cavs had a defensive identity. They were very good in that aspect.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 05:10 PM

Did Jordan lead in all categories?

Kobe would surely lead in most (except maybe rebounding).

And scoring.........man.

And the Cavs had a defensive identity. They were very good in that aspect.

I posted a few times in this thread in the morning, I see you are still at.

Just deal with it. Peak Lebron (either 2012, 2013 or 2009) > Peak Kobe (either 2006 or 2008/2009). It is hardly even debatable.

Longevity is what makes Kobe great, and he can expand on that next year. You should go root for that to happen.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:18 PM

I posted a few times in this thread in the morning, I see you are still at.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XeHZY0OKfBw/UEUU1920haI/AAAAAAAANzc/XdptxznLr9o/s1600/2vx15w3.gif

jzek

07-15-2013, 05:19 PM

Jordan

NumberSix

07-15-2013, 05:27 PM

Any version of LeBron > peak Kobe.

che guevara

07-15-2013, 05:29 PM

lol @ this Magic 32 guy. He's spent most of the last 24 hours hating on a basketball player on the Internet. Go outside, get a job, get some friends.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:37 PM

job

Getting closer.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WRJCc33pVaU/UAPFNo9ZuDI/AAAAAAAAAhE/LfxGd5XkSgE/s640/TheCrowd.jpeg

2,115 since 2009 > 2,035 since 2008 by the way.

tmacattack33

07-15-2013, 05:39 PM

Kobe
Early years = on a great team
Peak = on a bad team
Later years = on a excellent team

Lebron
Early years = on a mediocre team
Peak = on a great team

Kobe never had the same opportunity.

Put this guy on 2013 Heat.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/158192/kobe-bryant-81-points_medium.jpg

:pimp:

LOL at you acting like 2006 Kobe was already placed next to the 2013 Miami supporting cast in a parralel universe and it worked out perfectly.

There is just as much of a chance that that sh*t would go badly (probably by Kobe shooting his team out of games and clashing with Wade and Bosh...or the fact that Kobe wouldn't be able to help Miami's softness in the paint with his rebounding and shot blocking ability like Lebron did) as there is that it would go well.

Magic 32

07-15-2013, 05:41 PM

LOL at you acting like 2006 Kobe was already placed next to the 2013 Miami supporting cast in a parralel universe and it worked out perfectly.

There is just as much of a chance that that sh*t would go badly (probably by Kobe shooting his team out of games and clashing with Wade and Bosh...or the fact that Kobe wouldn't be able to help Miami's softness in the paint with his rebounding and shot blocking ability like Lebron did) as there is that it would go well.

http://jocksandstilettojill.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Kobe-Bryant-Instagram-message-533x575.png