60 y/o Wilt Chamberlain highlights went viral yesterday and held modern fans in awe

[CavaliersFTW]

In case you missed them here on ISH:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JuK2dVky0

http://images.christianpost.com/gnl/12460/2013-07-16-104153-96.png

Was circulating on Yahoo sports, Deadspin, Reddit etc etc. I've been reading peoples reactions since it went viral. People on forums all over the net were reacting genuinely in awe of these highlights.

It's surprising because not more than 3 years ago the consensus on ISH (and pretty much the rest of the internet) was that he was some unimpressive lumbering stiff :roll:

Now casual fans and hoops fans alike - completely taken aback by Wilt's speed and abilities - are suddenly recrowning him the GOAT after watching just these 5 game NCAA highlights? I didn't think it'd be that easy to sway public opinion. Many are likely prisoners of the moment, but it sure is great to know people can recognize how elite his game was despite only being a skinny 19/20 year old in 1950's NCAA mode.

[therammingman]

only 568 fg %?

[9erempiree]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

You cannot expect regular people to have an opinion especially when they don't can't factor the reasons I mentioned above.

The casual fan doesn't even know what an Era-specific player is.

[CavaliersFTW]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

You cannot expect regular people to have an opinion especially when they don't can't factor the reasons I mentioned above.

The casual fan doesn't even know what an Era-specific player is.
Actualy, if you followed the people posting it on twitter who were held in awe yesterday I recall at least one NCAA scout / former coach or assistant coach or w/e posting the video among the masses. IIRC he said something along the lines of all players could learn something from watching him play not just big men. I'm sure he also knew nothing about basketball though right? :lol

**EDIT** oh I get it, I bet he was trying to WARN everyone NOT to play like Wilt the "era specific" player right? Okay makes perfect sense now. Carry on.

[305Baller]

:bowdown:

[bdreason]

Late 50's and early 60's Wilt footage is actually the least impressive to me. Sure he was posting huge numbers, but his competition was far inferior. Once the NBA became more integrated by the mid/late 60's, you started to see how Wilt really matched up against players/teams with real talent and athleticism.

[IGOTGAME]

I'd love to see a non sped up version.

[Jameerthefear]

Is this your vid Cavs?

[CavaliersFTW]

Is this your vid Cavs?
Yes

[9erempiree]

**EDIT** oh I get it, I bet he was trying to WARN everyone NOT to play like Wilt the "era specific" player right? Okay makes perfect sense now. Carry on.

Nobody can play like an Era-specific player because they are not in that era. You can't just tell players to go out there and play like Wilt and dominate. Wilt had skill sets many can learn from but they are not going to translate to success in the modern game.

His game domination was specific to that only era. You cannot tell Noah to go out there and dominate like Wilt and expect the same result in this era.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'd love to see a non sped up version.
Sure here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JuK2dVky0

[CavaliersFTW]

Nobody can play like an Era-specific player because they are not in that era. You can't just tell players to go out there and play like Wilt and dominate. Wilt had skill sets many can learn from but they are not going to translate to success in the modern game.

His game domination was specific to that only era. You cannot tell Noah to go out there and dominate like Wilt and expect the same result in this era.
Ur so wise :bowdown: :lol

[Jameerthefear]

Wow I saw this video in multiple places :cheers:
other than this site there was nothing but positive post and comments...

[jlip]

Wow I saw this video in multiple places :cheers:
other than this site there was nothing but positive post and comments...

Me too.

CavsFTW has officially surpassed the former youtube Wilt archivist, Wilt@Kansas, as the authority on Wilt footage.

[9erempiree]

I'd love to see a non sped up version.

I wonder if CavaliersFTW put a disclaimer telling casual fans that he sped up the video to make Wilt look good.

He has done it multiple times on ISH where he would fake pictures of Wilt's head or hands top of the backboard.

[9erempiree]

Sure here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JuK2dVky0

I see that you have a sped up version and a regular version.

Why not just be truthful and post the original speed and not speed it up for the public.

If word gets out, it's just going to hurt your credibility.

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w4kmPds2xNs/UeYO51kxqHI/AAAAAAAAEeE/APeVkSD7Pb4/s800/ishnerd.jpg

[Round Mound]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

You cannot expect regular people to have an opinion especially when they don't can't factor the reasons I mentioned above.

The casual fan doesn't even know what an Era-specific player is.

You are Still Going On With the Era-specific player crap?:roll: :facepalm So Jordan Would Only Dominate in the 80s? Not the 90s? Not the 2000s? Get Real Kid! :rolleyes:

[Droid101]

All opponents look white, unathletic, and about seven to ten inches shorter than him.

Otherwise, impressive.

[305Baller]

Prime Chamberlain would be putting up 28p/12r/4b/3a today... maybe more.

[9erempiree]

Prime Chamberlain would be putting up 28p/12r/4b/3a today... maybe more.

The video was sped up. Which version did you watch?

OP has a way to deceive.

[SyRyanYang]

Short, white, skinny or chubby college kids. Not impressed.
And who doesn't look good in a sped-up highlight video?:confusedshrug:

[305Baller]

The video was sped up. Which version did you watch?

OP has a way to deceive.

I see what you are doing. it's just not funny. Sorry.

[eliteballer]

More speeding up of Wilt clips:roll:

[9erempiree]

I see what you are doing. it's just not funny. Sorry.

Besides the video being sped up. Go study what an Era Specific player is.

[305Baller]

Besides the video being sped up. Go study what an Era Specific player is.

ok that was funnier.

[CavaliersFTW]

U see this time I used a special technique that fooled 99.9% of fans out there (but not you guys you guys are too sharp). I sped up ONLY the lateral movements of players. Not the up and down movements. That way gravity still operates at normal speed, but player quickness/sprint speed is increased to make them look better. Clever trick eh?

[kaiteng]

Wilt's sprinting :eek: :eek: :eek:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

U see this time I used a special technique that fooled 99.9% of fans out there (but not you guys you guys are too sharp). I sped up ONLY the lateral movements of players. Not the up and down movements. That way gravity still operates at normal speed, but player quickness/sprint speed is increased to make them look better. Clever trick eh?

:biggums:

[9erempiree]

U see this time I used a special technique that fooled 99.9% of fans out there (but not you guys you guys are too sharp). I sped up ONLY the lateral movements of players. Not the up and down movements. That way gravity still operates at normal speed, but player quickness/sprint speed is increased to make them look better. Clever trick eh?

You have a history of posting pictures that people can even google. You claimed his head was above the rim and his hands reach the top of the backboard.

:facepalm

[jlip]

Prime Chamberlain would be putting up 28p/12r/4b/3a today... maybe more.

Honestly, I couldn't see Wilt allowing anyone in today's game to outrebound him. During his career, he led the league in rebounding every single season except for '64 and '65, and it was another GOAT rebounder, Russell, who led the league. The best rebounders in today's game are Howard and Love. They have both averaged at least 14rpg at least once in the last three seasons. Wilt was bigger, taller, stronger, and more obsessed with rebounding than they are. I could easily see him averaging at least 17 rpg in his prime today.

[305Baller]

U see this time I used a special technique that fooled 99.9% of fans out there (but not you guys you guys are too sharp). I sped up ONLY the lateral movements of players. Not the up and down movements. That way gravity still operates at normal speed, but player quickness/sprint speed is increased to make them look better. Clever trick eh?

I also like how you made the ball look like it's moving at real time too.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt's sprinting :eek: :eek: :eek:
Hold on there, before you get all excited and react like all the 100,000 sports fans and journalists did yesterday haven't you heard these ISH experts yet? Wilt is ERA SPECIFIC. There's no way he'd be able to sprint in the modern game. The white 50's people are the only reason he's allowed to sprint. Plus the footage is sped up to make him look better and his competition's footage was kept slow so that he can pass people up. DUH :hammerhead:

[Xsatyr]

I saw a lot of nonathletic white guys...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Was that an embed video on ISH?

[305Baller]

Was that an embed video on ISH?

no

[CavaliersFTW]

Was that an embed video on ISH?
No, just a screenshot of an embedded vid :lol

[KOBE143]

Saw a lot of 5ft white dudes, not impressed..

Weak Era..

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w4kmPds2xNs/UeYO51kxqHI/AAAAAAAAEeE/APeVkSD7Pb4/s800/ishnerd.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

My god, Jordan's NCAA competition looks SO MUCH BETTER!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCqD-VhcQhg




















:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Dr.J4ever]

Hold on there, before you get all excited and react like all the 100,000 sports fans and journalists did yesterday haven't you heard these ISH experts yet? Wilt is ERA SPECIFIC. There's no way he'd be able to sprint in the modern game. The white 50's people are the only reason he's allowed to sprint. Plus the footage is sped up to make him look better and his competition's footage was kept slow so that he can pass people up. DUH :hammerhead:

To me, the highlights are even more impressive than the NBA highlights I've seen of him. Most of the NBA highlights I've seen were against defenses that looked incompetent really. Lots of 1 on 1. Here, though, Wilt was doing it against triple coverage, albeit less athletic than the NBA. Now this is more like what he would be facing today.

So yes, a very important piece of video recording a center that might be the most dominant 7 footer of all time.

[Stern]

I find it odd that faker fans are hating on Wilt.

[GrapeApe]

There's no such thing as an era specific player because in reality, EVERY player is era specific. You can only judge a player by how he performed against his competition at the time. Anything beyond that is speculative at best. 50 years from now people will be downplaying the greatness of LeBron, Duncan, and Kobe. I'll be called a nostalgic, senile old man for thinking those guys would dominate in 2063.

[Jameerthefear]

Insidehoops:

http://i.imgur.com/buIwzkn.png

http://i.imgur.com/J4lt5rk.png

http://i.imgur.com/K1lhXXF.png

http://i.imgur.com/25EUCAU.png


VS

Everyone else:

http://i.imgur.com/BE6shQc.png

http://i.imgur.com/uevifPo.png

http://i.imgur.com/vWoaNMAh.png

http://i.imgur.com/kJf3eKhh.png

http://i.imgur.com/l10HlJk.png



Full album: http://imgur.com/a/SclhY

[9erempiree]

Full album: http://imgur.com/a/SclhY

You have to remember those are casual fans and everyone on ISH are smart and hardcore fans.

[LAZERUSS]

Saw a lot of 5ft white dudes, not impressed..

Weak Era..

Yep. You would never see a 6-8 white guy leading the NBA in rebounding in this era (as recently as 2010-11). Or a 6-11 white center leading the league in blocked shots. Or a 37 year old, 6-3 white guy leading the league in assists. Or a white guy winning a FMVP.

[Dr.J4ever]

Also, Wilt even showed he had a turnaround jumper. Now this is a shot he will need, if he played today. I'm changing my mind a bit with this video. I use to think Hakeem was more athletic, and even other modern players, but now I think Wilt was the most athletic 7 footer ever, and if he played today, Wilt would be considered the most dominant 7 footer who ever played the game.

[LAZERUSS]

Short, white, skinny or chubby college kids. Not impressed.
And who doesn't look good in a sped-up highlight video?:confusedshrug:

Yep. After all, when Chamberlain joined the NBA, and faced actual 6-11+ HOF Black centers, he was a complete bust.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yep. You would never see a 6-8 white guy leading the NBA in rebounding in this era (as recently as 2010-11). Or a 6-11 white center leading the league in blocked shots. Or a 37 year old, 6-3 white guy leading the league in assists. Or a white guy winning a FMVP.
Steve Nash 6-1 w/o shoes... literally just a 6-1 white guy. Also won multiple MVP's :lol

[CavaliersFTW]

Also, Wilt even showed he had a turnaround jumper. Now this is a shot he will need, if he played today. I'm changing my mind a bit with this video. I use to think Hakeem was more athletic, and even other modern players, but now I think Wilt was the most athletic 7 footer ever, and if he played today, Wilt would be considered the most dominant 7 footer who ever played the game.
Don't know if this makes a difference but Hakeem was "only" about 6-10, where as Wilt was legitimately 7-1 w/o shoes. So Hakeem isn't technically a 7 footer. Though if 7 footer is just a loose term for center than I see what you mean.

Hakeem and Shaq
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/303/046/Hakeem_vs_Shaq_display_image.jpg?1316007851

Shaq and Wilt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

[Jameerthefear]

You have to remember those are casual fans and everyone on ISH are smart and hardcore fans.
Come on man.

[hitman24]

these guys are all trolls lol much respect OP..great video.

[bmd]

Short white guys.

[bmd]

Just kidding OP. I like the old footage. It's a lot of footage, too.

[brownmamba00]

Prime Chamberlain would be putting up 28p/12r/4b/3a today... maybe more.
26/16/5a/4b

I don't think he would have scored as much but he'd still beast on the boards great passer too

[Dr.J4ever]

Don't know if this makes a difference but Hakeem was "only" about 6-10, where as Wilt was legitimately 7-1 w/o shoes. So Hakeem isn't technically a 7 footer. Though if 7 footer is just a loose term for center than I see what you mean.

Hakeem and Shaq
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/303/046/Hakeem_vs_Shaq_display_image.jpg?1316007851

Shaq and Wilt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig
I meant it as loose term, the 7 footer tag. Russel would still be considered the biggest "winner" in the game due to intangibles, but this video proves, at least in my mind, Wilt would dominate today's game. Still not 50ppg, but yes 30/15/4/4 is well within the realm of possibility.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep. You would never see a 6-8 white guy leading the NBA in rebounding in this era (as recently as 2010-11). Or a 6-11 white center leading the league in blocked shots. Or a 37 year old, 6-3 white guy leading the league in assists. Or a white guy winning a FMVP.
That "white guy" was Dirk Nowitzki. Show some respect :facepalm

[dbk123]

all i see is him calling for the ball and blocking over shorter white people...

[secund2nun]

He is playing against a bunch of non-athletic white scrubs.

The competition is so damn bad that at the 1:23 mark Wilt is at a tipoff and the opposing white player does not even jump LOL he looks scared.

See for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S8JuK2dVky0#t=83s

This further confirms the fact that Wilt was ahead of his time beating up on unathletic undersized primarily white scrubs. This explains his ridiculously fake video game statistics.

[LAZERUSS]

all i see is him calling for the ball and blocking over shorter white people...

That was Wilt's fault too. He hand-selected those teams that he dominated.

And once again, when he finally joined the NBA, and was routinely facing HOF centers, he was a flop.

[no pun intended]

CavaliersFTW repping ISH once again. Good to have you here.

[305Baller]

The Wilt vs Kareem battles were cool.

[avonbarksdale]

i hate u soooo much like so much

[CavaliersFTW]

The Wilt vs Kareem battles were cool.
Working on a mix for that as we speak

[LAZERUSS]

He is playing against a bunch of non-athletic white scrubs.

The competition is so damn bad that at the 1:23 mark Wilt is at a tipoff and the opposing white player does not even jump LOL he looks scared.

See for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S8JuK2dVky0#t=83s

This further confirms the fact that Wilt was ahead of his time beating up on unathletic undersized primarily white scrubs. This explains his ridiculously fake video game statistics.

Of course, over the course of two straight seasons, and in 20 straight h2h's, Chamberlain could only average 48.2 ppg against the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, who would be listed as a seven-footer in today's NBA. Four games of 60+, including a 73 point, 29-48 shooting, 36 rebound game. BTW, he was still trashing Bellamy in the mid-to-late 60"s, too. And an old Bellamy had some good games against a prime KAJ in the 70's (BTW, Kareem's high game against Bellamy in some 20 h2h's? 39 points.)

But, then, we know that an old KAJ, in the mid-80's, wasn't worth a damn, either. No way that a prime Kareem would have had a prayer against a Hakeem or Ewing. And we know that neither of those guys could play in the current NBA, either.

[305Baller]

Working on a mix for that as we speak

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/YouDaMan.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/YouDaMan.jpg

Looks like Mark Eaton dominating the 80's...

[secund2nun]

Of course, over the course of two straight seasons, and in 20 straight h2h's, Chamberlain could only average 48.2 ppg against the 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy, who would be listed as a seven-footer in today's NBA. Four games of 60+, including a 73 point, 29-48 shooting, 36 rebound game. BTW, he was still trashing Bellamy in the mid-to-late 60"s, too. And an old Bellamy had some good games against a prime KAJ in the 70's (BTW, Kareem's high game against Bellamy in some 20 h2h's? 39 points.)

But, then, we know that an old KAJ, in the mid-80's, wasn't worth a damn, either. No way that a prime Kareem would have had a prayer against a Hakeem or Ewing. And we know that neither of those guys could play in the current NBA, either.

Wilt was playing 47-48 mins a game in a extremely high pace NBA that caused extremely bloated statistics and had simple defensive schemes with tons of non athletic undersized scrubs. A few HOF centers here and there don't erase the fact that he was going up against omega scrubs as well. In the modern NBA the non-HOF players are still respectable athletes with respectable size etc.

Bellamy was a 225 pounder trying to guard a 300 pount Wilt, but because of the lack of quality players back then there were extremely few 275+ pounder to guard Wilt.

Was Wilt great? Sure, but not anywhere as great as his numbers indicate. His statistics should be kept in context and yes his competition was trash.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt was playing 47-48 mins a game in a extremely high pace NBA that caused extremely bloated statistics and had simple defensive schemes with tons of non athletic undersized scrubs. A few HOF centers here and there don't erase the fact that he was going up against omega scrubs as well. In the modern NBA the non-HOF players are still respectable athletes with respectable size etc.

Was Wilt great? Sure, but not anywhere as great as his numbers indicate. His statistics should be kept in context and yes his competition was trash.

I agree. Trashy centers like Lovellette, Reed, Unseld, Hayes, Bellamy, Thurmond, Lanier, Cowens, McAdoo, Russell, and Kareem. You won't find any of those clowns in the HOF.

And, aside from Unseld, who was about Ben Wallaces' size, all of them about as tall, or taller, than Dwight Howard.

[secund2nun]

Look at this: The roster of one of the teams Walt played for:

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
10 Henry Akin PF 6-10 225 July 31, 1944 R Morehead State University
12 Dick Barnett SG 6-4 190 October 2, 1936 6 Tennessee State University
8 Walt Bellamy C 6-11 225 July 24, 1939 5 Indiana University
7 Em Bryant PG 6-1 175 November 4, 1938 2 DePaul University
4 Freddie Crawford SG 6-4 189 December 23, 1941 R St. Bonaventure University
3 Dave Deutsch G 6-1 170 May 13, 1945 R University of Rochester
11 Neil Johnson PF 6-7 220 April 17, 1943 R Creighton University
16 Howard Komives PG 6-1 185 May 9, 1941 2 Bowling Green State University
18 Wayne Molis C 6-8 230 April 17, 1943 R Lewis University
19 Willis Reed PF 6-9 235 June 25, 1942 2 Grambling State University
14 Cazzie Russell SF 6-5 218 June 7, 1944 R University of Michigan
9 Dave Stallworth SF 6-7 200 December 20, 1941 1 Wichita State University
5 Dick Van Arsdale SG 6-5 210 February 22, 1943 1 Indiana University

Who the heck is supposed to guard 7'1 300+ pound Wilt. The biggest guys on the roster are 6-10 225 (Henry Akin, who wasa scrub with no athleticism who lasted 2 seasons in the NBA), 6-11 225 (Walt) and 6'8 230 ( Haslem size) and 6'9 235 (not big enough, height or weight wise).

No wonder he had 36 rebounds against them.

[LAZERUSS]

Look at this: The roster of one of the teams Walt played for:

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
10 Henry Akin PF 6-10 225 July 31, 1944 R Morehead State University
12 Dick Barnett SG 6-4 190 October 2, 1936 6 Tennessee State University
8 Walt Bellamy C 6-11 225 July 24, 1939 5 Indiana University
7 Em Bryant PG 6-1 175 November 4, 1938 2 DePaul University
4 Freddie Crawford SG 6-4 189 December 23, 1941 R St. Bonaventure University
3 Dave Deutsch G 6-1 170 May 13, 1945 R University of Rochester
11 Neil Johnson PF 6-7 220 April 17, 1943 R Creighton University
16 Howard Komives PG 6-1 185 May 9, 1941 2 Bowling Green State University
18 Wayne Molis C 6-8 230 April 17, 1943 R Lewis University
19 Willis Reed PF 6-9 235 June 25, 1942 2 Grambling State University
14 Cazzie Russell SF 6-5 218 June 7, 1944 R University of Michigan
9 Dave Stallworth SF 6-7 200 December 20, 1941 1 Wichita State University
5 Dick Van Arsdale SG 6-5 210 February 22, 1943 1 Indiana University

Who the heck is supposed to guard 7'1 300+ pound Wilt. The biggest guys on the roster are 6-10 225 (Henry Akin, who wasa scrub with no athleticism who lasted 2 seasons in the NBA), 6-11 225 (Walt) and 6'8 230 ( Haslem size) and 6'9 235 (not big enough, height or weight wise).

No wonder he had 36 rebounds against them.

And since it is obvious that size if the main factor here, can you imagine the numbers that a prime Wilt would have carper-bombed the 6-9.5 Dwight Howard with????

[CavaliersFTW]

Look at this: The roster of one of the teams Walt played for:

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
10 Henry Akin PF 6-10 225 July 31, 1944 R Morehead State University
12 Dick Barnett SG 6-4 190 October 2, 1936 6 Tennessee State University
8 Walt Bellamy C 6-11 225 July 24, 1939 5 Indiana University
7 Em Bryant PG 6-1 175 November 4, 1938 2 DePaul University
4 Freddie Crawford SG 6-4 189 December 23, 1941 R St. Bonaventure University
3 Dave Deutsch G 6-1 170 May 13, 1945 R University of Rochester
11 Neil Johnson PF 6-7 220 April 17, 1943 R Creighton University
16 Howard Komives PG 6-1 185 May 9, 1941 2 Bowling Green State University
18 Wayne Molis C 6-8 230 April 17, 1943 R Lewis University
19 Willis Reed PF 6-9 235 June 25, 1942 2 Grambling State University
14 Cazzie Russell SF 6-5 218 June 7, 1944 R University of Michigan
9 Dave Stallworth SF 6-7 200 December 20, 1941 1 Wichita State University
5 Dick Van Arsdale SG 6-5 210 February 22, 1943 1 Indiana University

Who the heck is supposed to guard 7'1 300+ pound Wilt. The biggest guys on the roster are 6-10 225 (Henry Akin, who wasa scrub with no athleticism who lasted 2 seasons in the NBA), 6-11 225 (Walt) and 6'8 230 ( Haslem size) and 6'9 235 (not big enough, height or weight wise).

No wonder he had 36 rebounds against them.

:no: bball reference = / = accurate documentation of player size


P.S. who on the Heat would guard Chamberlain if he played today? :roll:

[secund2nun]

And since it is obvious that size if the main factor here, can you imagine the numbers that a prime Wilt would have carper-bombed the 6-9.5 Dwight Howard with????

Howard is way more athletic than anyone on that roster. Also he is 270 pounds, unlike the 225 pound Walt who was the biggest player on that roster. Combine this with the far superior supporting casts of today and much better D schemes and Wilt would have non-video game stats if he played today today.

[Droid101]

Please. Adjust for pace and... god. Rodman was a way better rebounder than Wilt, not close. And Kobe's 81 was more impressive than Wilt's 100, also not very close.

The pace was so different back then. Stop comparing them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Howard is way more athletic than anyone on that roster. Also he is 270 pounds, unlike the 225 pound Walt who was the biggest player on that roster. Combine this with the far superior supporting casts of today and much better D schemes and Wilt would have non-video game stats if he played today today.
Bellamy weighed as much as 265 during his NBA career. Willis Reed weighed at least 250.

Bball reference = / = actual accurate player weights

[secund2nun]

:no: bball reference = / = accurate documentation of player size


P.S. who on the Heat would guard Chamberlain if he played today? :roll:

Miami has the worst center rotation in the NBA, but even then because of the overall team athleticism and size (Lebron is 260 with extreme athleticism while their biggest player was 235 with less athleticism LOL.) the swarming defense would at least keep him at normal non video game numbers. Even Joel is 6'9 250 which is 15 pounds bigger than their biggest). He would not average 50/25 against Miami like he did against those non athletic undersized scrubs from back then. Even if he dominated Miami it would be a normal 28/13 type performance assuming he was as good as they say.

Wilt was simply ahead of his time. It's kinda like putting a grown 30 year old man in a bball tournament for 8 year olds.

[Funnyfuka]

his competition was mostly white slow dudes lol... also stop acelerating the vids its annoying.

[CavaliersFTW]

Miami has the worst center rotation in the NBA, but even then because of the overall team athleticism and size (Lebron is 260 with extreme athleticism while their biggest player was 235 with less athleticism LOL.) the swarming defense would at least keep him at normal non video game numbers. Even Joel is 6'9 250 which is 15 pounds bigger than their biggest). He would not average 50/25 against Miami like he did against those non athletic undersized scrubs from back then. Even if he dominated Miami it would be a normal 28/13 type performance assuming he was as good as they say.

Wilt was simply ahead of his time. It's kinda like putting a grown 30 year old man in a bball tournament for 8 year olds.
Joel Anthony is actually 6-7, hate to break it to you. Wilt would absolutely RAPE a roster like the Heat. Chris Bosh is the kind of defender that would get 100 points scored on him by Wilt.

[jlip]

Who the heck is supposed to guard 7'1 300+ pound Wilt. The biggest guys on the roster are 6-10 225 (Henry Akin, who wasa scrub with no athleticism who lasted 2 seasons in the NBA), 6-11 225 (Walt) and 6'8 230 ( Haslem size) and 6'9 235 (not big enough, height or weight wise).

No wonder he had 36 rebounds against them.


Howard is way more athletic than anyone on that roster. Also he is 270 pounds, unlike the 225 pound Walt who was the biggest player on that roster. Combine this with the far superior supporting casts of today and much better D schemes and Wilt would have non-video game stats if he played today today.

I find it funny that you have the "insight" to understand that Wilt supposedly played at 300+ lbs at some point in his career despite the fact that bballref only lists him at 275lbs and that Dwight supposedly plays at 270lbs when bballref only lists him at 240lbs, but don't understand that Walt Bellamy and his teammates played at weights much heavier than what are listed for them on bballref.

[secund2nun]

Joel Anthony is actually 6-7, hate to break it to you. Wilt would absolutely RAPE a roster like the Heat. Chris Bosh is the kind of defender that would get 100 points scored on him by Wilt.

Wilt may rape Miami, but he would average 30-15 at most against Miami. That is because unlike today which has great players, the 50s-60s was fully of pathetic slow unathletic white scrubs so the few quality centers back then dominated with legendary statistics.

[ripthekik]

just wondering, so where did you get these videos from? and why have they only surfaced now?

[secund2nun]

I find it funny that you have the "insight" to understand that Wilt supposedly played at 300+ lbs at some point in his career despite the fact that bballref only lists him at 275lbs and that Dwight supposedly plays at 270lbs when bballref only lists him at 240lbs, but don't understand that Walt Bellamy and his teammates played at weights much heavier than what are listed for them on bballref.

Walt and his teammates may have been heavier, but it's the same old stuff. Most of the players on the roster were unathletic scrubs. There is no way anyone can objectively believe Wilt would be average 30+ ppg and 20+ rpg today. The fact that he averaged 50/25 totally discredits the competition back then. The link he posted shows how pathetic his competition was even in college. The white scrub guy at the tipoff against Wilt did not even jump :roll:

He did that because the era was so weak back then. Today at center even most of the scrubs have good size and decent athleticism. Most of the rosters back then were undersized and non athletic scrubs. That's why most of the league was white back then.

[CavaliersFTW]

just wondering, so where did you get these videos from? and why have they only surfaced now?
I'm in touch with a couple of collectors. I've had 3 of these games for a long time but recently came across the SMU and OKC game which completed the NCAA tournament so I decided to make a mix of it since it's pretty much the only "consecutive games" of Wilt's that exists on film. I'm sure these have existed via trade in collectors hands for YEARS. Just was waiting to fall into the right hands (mine).

[Round Mound]

Some Posters Keep Mentioning the Word "White" as if That Made You a Bad Player Cause of "Being that Color"

Maikan
Cousy
Schayes
Pettit
Havlicek
Cowens
West
Walton
Maravich
Barry
Bird
McHale
Chambers
Sabonis
Eaton
Mullin
Price
Stockton
Nash
Ginobili
Gasol
Dirk
Love

They Also Unathletic "White" Scrubs?

[AintNoSunshine]

It's so unimpressive.... he's physically way better than his peer, but watched for several minute never once did he put on a low post move

[sundizz]

It's painful watching that. He is so clearly superior to his competition. He is a beanpole. I think Manute Bol would of been as good if not better though.

For a center, dominating on pure physical prowess is not a bad thing. Most great centers did that. However, honestly the more I see of Wilt the more my beliefs are confirmed that Shaq would still dominate him (99-2002 Shaq).

Wilt may be faster, may even jump higher, may have longer arms, may even weigh in a similar ballpark. However, he does not have the pure explosive power of Shaq. That is what makes Shaq so unique. He had like cat like quickness, combined with wrecking ball power. He just exploded off the ground and right through people. Wilt couldn't of stopped him.

Wilt probably could of dropped some points on him, but Shaq > Wilt. It's not really a knock on Wilt...as I think 99-2002 Shaq is #1 all time peak. Wilt might be better to draft though for a career. He kept himself in shape, had endurance, etc etc.

[BoutPractice]

Shaq was a more efficient scorer than Wilt as he was not afraid to use his massive body to just bully the opposition, but Wilt was the superior all-around player. When you look at the complete picture including defense and rebounding (which is what you always expect centers to provide even when they're not scoring), Wilt emerges as the better center.

If you want to talk about competition, here's the list of centers Shaq faced in the playoffs from 2000 to 2002:

2000
31 yr old Vlade Divac and Scott Pollard
31 yr old Luc Longley
35 yr old Sabonis on one leg (so good he was a formidable foe even in that state)
33 yr old Rik "I wish I could rebound like Brook Lopez" Smits and Dale Davis

2001
Same Blazers centers, a year older
Same Kings centers, a year older
Duncan (finally) and 35 yr old Robinson
34 yr old Mutombo (still very good though) and Todd McCulloch

2002
Blazers centers again
Spurs centers again
Kings centers again
...Jason Collins :lol (Looking at that roster again, you really appreciate how good Jason Kidd was... when a team featuring Collins, Brian Scalabrine, Anthony Johnson, and Todd MacCulloch reaches the Finals, even in the East, you know the guy leading them is special)

Very few epic matchups there. Collins aside, it's not laughable either, but other than Duncan, there's not a single HOFer in his prime on that list. There clearly was an "opening" in the league that allowed Shaq to dominate. And I'm not saying that to diminish Shaq, I'm one of those who believe peak Shaq may have been the best scorer of all time.

In contrast, in his title years, Wilt had to go through Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Nate Thurmond, and Willis Reed (not the best Willis Reed he'd face, but still).

[Trollsmasher]

Dat speed at 0:53:bowdown:

My god, Jordan's NCAA competition looks SO MUCH BETTER!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCqD-VhcQhg

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
Jordan's competition was a joke except for the years he got dominated by prime Celtics and Pistons.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Thanks for confirming it OP.

Wilt was overrated.

He's a tall black guy amidst a sea of small white guys. Hahaha. White guys can barely play in the NBA today, they are a small minority. Wilt was out there playing vs scrubs who can't even jump high and were not as tall as him.

I saw nothing impressive in the video.

Overrated player who played in a weak era due to racism not allowing more blacks in the league at the time.

He's like Jim Brown. Black athlete playing back in the day vs a bunch of white scrubs so he got inflated stats.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

holy shit, the more i watch this video, the shorter unathletic white guys aren't even JUMPING TO CONTEST in many plays.

what A SAD ERA!!!!! hahahaahahah


I am never again putting wilt at #2. NEVER. OVerrated as ****.

Kareem and Shaq are both better than Wilt.

I'm putting Kareem as the #1 GOAT Center from now on.

[Inactive]

holy shit, the more i watch this video, the shorter unathletic white guys aren't even JUMPING TO CONTEST in many plays.

what A SAD ERA!!!!! hahahaahahah


I am never again putting wilt at #2. NEVER. OVerrated as ****.

Kareem and Shaq are both better than Wilt.

I'm putting Kareem as the #1 GOAT Center from now on.http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/089/4/1/skyhookgif3_by_dantheman9758-d4uenol.gif

[teddytwelvetoes]

Of course Wilt lost in college, whereas Russell won back-to-back NCAA chips :roll:

[Marchesk]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

Yeah, a true 7-1" guy with athleticism, size and skill wouldn't be able to do crap in today's league of dominating giants. :lol

[BoutPractice]

3LiftHeatCurse > Again, a Chamberlain on his last legs did actually manage to give peak Jabbar trouble defensively... And since someone mentioned losing, I'll add that Jabbar spent the 70s coming up short, even missing the playoffs a few times, before Magic came along.

But anyway, back to the issue of competition. The problem is, athletes don't get to pick their competition (well, they can join their rivals to form a superteam, for instance, but you get the point). They have to play against the guys in front of them, and Wilt Chamberlain played the very best players in the entire world at the time - it's not as if he chose to play in an inferior league!

Wilt Chamberlain dominated short white guys in college... but he also dominated Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond, two of the greatest defenders of all time (and defense certainly translates across eras... have you seen those guys? They'd be amazing anchors today). If you look at what actually happened, not hypotheticals, he was never stopped or shut down by anyone, white or black, 6-8 or 7-2, role player or first ballot HOFer.

The fact that he feasted on inferior competition shouldn't be held against him. The reason we call it "inferior competition" is precisely because he's so good compared to it. Imagine switching LeBron (you're a LeBron guy, right?) and Wilt Chamberlain. You put LeBron in the NBA in that era and he would dominate, because he's, well, LeBron... might even average something like a 40 point, 15 rebound triple double at his peak due to pace.

Video game stats, basically... but he wouldn't get any respect from people using the same arguments as you. Whatever he did, it "wouldn't count" for some bogus reason. 60s LeBron scores 80 with 30 rebounds, or puts up 60 points and 20 assists? Doesn't count, he'd be a glorified James Johnson in this league. People would find any excuse to diminish him... they'd say LeBron doesn't have any post moves, he just bullies his way to the rim... Worse, they'd say "he'd get dominated by Carmelo Anthony/Paul George/etc.", guys he actually faced in reality and out-dueled! How frustrating would it be for you to have to explain how good LeBron was to those guys?

[Marchesk]

You have a history of posting pictures that people can even google. You claimed his head was above the rim and his hands reach the top of the backboard.

:facepalm

His shoulder was close to rim level and his hands were a few inches from the top of the backboard when blocking/goaltending a shot in that one video. It's just poor quality with a difficult angle, but in slow motion and frozen when the ball is blocked does show that Wilt elevates at least 36", by my best guess. Coloring him in helps a lot. He was up there. There are several other shots he blocked on video that were above the box.

[Marchesk]

What's with all the comment of Wilt dominating small, unathletic white guys? Didn't Steve Nash win two MVPs a few years ago, denying Kobe in the process? :lol

Isn't John Stocton in the HOF? What about Bird being a top 10 player all time? He must of been a white dude with serious ups. And Nowitzky dominating the 2011 playoffs, including the uber athletic Wade and Lebron?

White competition sucks. Just look at Kevin Mchale. Dude was pitiful. White bigs can't do anything in this league. That stiff Mark Eaton couldn't block shots for shit. You'd never see someone like Kevin Love lead the league in rebounding, or average 26 ppg.

Clearly Wilt wouldn't stand a chance in a fully integrated era, where a slow, white dude by the name of Bird goes down higher on the list than super athletic ballers like Dominique and Barkley. :roll:

[Marchesk]

Wilt was playing 47-48 mins a game in a extremely high pace NBA that caused extremely bloated statistics and had simple defensive schemes with tons of non athletic undersized scrubs. A few HOF centers here and there don't erase the fact that he was going up against omega scrubs as well. In the modern NBA the non-HOF players are still respectable athletes with respectable size etc.

Bellamy was a 225 pounder trying to guard a 300 pount Wilt, but because of the lack of quality players back then there were extremely few 275+ pounder to guard Wilt.

Was Wilt great? Sure, but not anywhere as great as his numbers indicate. His statistics should be kept in context and yes his competition was trash.

Shaq: 7'1", 325 pounds. Tell me who could physically match up with him? Should we hold that against O'Neal? That he physically dominated his competition? How about posting videos of Shaq destroying white centers?

http://youtu.be/lpiaPZzB0Zo?t=1m3s

Or obliterating Mutumbo in the finals, who was like 80 lbs lighter?

http://youtu.be/FJ3FXLyNFew?t=38s

Or being defended by Divacs:

http://youtu.be/EB8r3vG6_3k?t=15s

[9erempiree]

That's why I created the term Era-Specific players. A term that you will be hearing more about as I pass down my essays to the bigger media outlets. This is the common ground amongst many debating.

Nobody is saying Wilt is not great. In fact, he's a fantastic player in his era, a era specific player. Does this mean his game translates to other eras? No. Does that mean he sucks? No.

Wilt is one of the greatest of all time. I'm not saying he would put up the same numbers in succeeding eras because he won't, due to rules and competition. Does that mean he sucks? No.

He's an Era Specific player that is great in his era.

I'm working on a website that will explain this, soon people can just google Era Specific player and you guys can form an opinion of your own. The common ground here, Wilt is a ES player.

[9erempiree]

Also, that is why I have Kobe and Jordan as the greatest players of all time.

MJ showed that he can play in succeeding eras at almost 40 years of age and put up 20 plus points.

Kobe in his 17 season last year, showed that he can dominate this era of '10 and beyond. If Kobe can do it at that age, imagine what prime Kobe would be averaging. Probably 35 plus points per game.

These are the only 2 players I can think of that can truly dominate any era. Kareem would be the next guy to fill up the spots.

[Akhenaten]

The jumpball @ 1:24 :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bob from marketing looked terrified :oldlol:
video should have been set to Benny Hill/3 stooges type music

for a minute I thought it was on a loop, Wilt's teammate's literally were just indiscriminately lobbing the ball to Wilt in a sea of midgets where he just catch and go up :roll:

then the video is FF X 10
hilarious stuff

[9erempiree]

The jumpball @ 1:24 :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bob from marketing looked terrified :oldlol:
video should have been set to Benny Hill/3 stooges type music

for a minute I thought it was on a loop, Wilt's teammate's literally were just indiscriminately lobbing the ball to Wilt in a sea of midgets where he just catch and go up :roll:

then the video is FF X 10
hilarious stuff

It's FF x 10 so it gives you the illusion that he was some freak of nature faster than everyone else in a very fast league.

That is further from the truth, he was just bigger and stronger in an otherwise slow league. The speed gives you that sense that the league was faster than today's, which is impossible given the competition and the athletic status of the players.

[gin17]

That's why I created the term Era-Specific players. A term that you will be hearing more about as I pass down my essays to the bigger media outlets. This is the common ground amongst many debating.

Nobody is saying Wilt is not great. In fact, he's a fantastic player in his era, a era specific player. Does this mean his game translates to other eras? No. Does that mean he sucks? No.

Wilt is one of the greatest of all time. I'm not saying he would put up the same numbers in succeeding eras because he won't, due to rules and competition. Does that mean he sucks? No.

He's an Era Specific player that is great in his era.

I'm working on a website that will explain this, soon people can just google Era Specific player and you guys can form an opinion of your own. The common ground here, Wilt is a ES player.
how do you define how a player is "era specific"? my understanding was that he was just being "teleported" to another era. if my understanding of "era specific" is what i think it is, i think that definition is putting wilt at a disadvantage. it's like you just picked him up from a different era and put him in another era in just a snap of a finger. when you "put" him in today's era, you should imagine him growing up like a normal person of this era, learning today's rules and playing today's guys as he grew up. not like he instantly time-traveled and still knows only the rules of his own era. if he were born in today's generation, he'd be playing with today's rules and technolgy his whole childhood/life, hence he should be used to playing in this era and should know how to use his physical talents to take advantage of the current technology, rules, and competition.

therefore, when you put someone in another era, you should imagine him growing up and adapting in that "other" era, and not just being instantly teleported to that era. because that way, current players will have the advantage of foresight in knowing the previous eras, as well as better technology and training.

now, imagine if chamberlain or someone with exactly the same physical endowment was born around 1988 and was playing basketball his whole childhood wouldn't be dominating today's league. it would make peak Dwight look like a midget. scary thought.

[Dr.J4ever]

What's with all the comment of Wilt dominating small, unathletic white guys? Didn't Steve Nash win two MVPs a few years ago, denying Kobe in the process? :lol

Isn't John Stocton in the HOF? What about Bird being a top 10 player all time? He must of been a white dude with serious ups. And Nowitzky dominating the 2011 playoffs, including the uber athletic Wade and Lebron?

White competition sucks. Just look at Kevin Mchale. Dude was pitiful. White bigs can't do anything in this league. That stiff Mark Eaton couldn't block shots for shit. You'd never see someone like Kevin Love lead the league in rebounding, or average 26 ppg.

Clearly Wilt wouldn't stand a chance in a fully integrated era, where a slow, white dude by the name of Bird goes down higher on the list than super athletic ballers like Dominique and Barkley. :roll:

Exactly. This is almost racist. Of course, Wilt's competition in college wasn't the best. You really have to take a closer look. Was Lebron's competition so great in high school? How did you know he would be great in the NBA? Same with Kobe in high school? You can watch a player and KNOW he would
be great.

I mean, can't you guys tell? He's surrounded by 3 guys and still powers to the hole. He takes a lob with great timing. He's fast as hell, and anticipates great with blocked shots. A 7'2 guy with extreme athleticism doesn't have a chance in the NBA. Yeah, right! This guy looks more athletic than Dwight
Howard! On offense and defense.

Wilt played in an era that was generally weaker than today, and played at a faster pace. Okay, maybe his stats would have to be "adjusted". But this doesn't change the fact that Wilt was most likely the most dominant big man of all time. Yes, Shaq played with more power. KAJ had that one unstoppable shot. Russel seemed to always do what he had to do to win. But only Wilt combined power, finesse, skill, and athleticism to become the most dominant individual player of all time(maybe Jordan too but it's close).

[3LiftHeatCurse]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/089/4/1/skyhookgif3_by_dantheman9758-d4uenol.gif


So at best, Wilt was an athletic big who could play defense.

He doesn't score 50ppg on Kareem though does he.

Inflated stats from a crappy era

[3LiftHeatCurse]

3LiftHeatCurse > Again, a Chamberlain on his last legs did actually manage to give peak Jabbar trouble defensively... And since someone mentioned losing, I'll add that Jabbar spent the 70s coming up short, even missing the playoffs a few times, before Magic came along.

But anyway, back to the issue of competition. The problem is, athletes don't get to pick their competition (well, they can join their rivals to form a superteam, for instance, but you get the point). They have to play against the guys in front of them, and Wilt Chamberlain played the very best players in the entire world at the time - it's not as if he chose to play in an inferior league!

Wilt Chamberlain dominated short white guys in college... but he also dominated Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond, two of the greatest defenders of all time (and defense certainly translates across eras... have you seen those guys? They'd be amazing anchors today). If you look at what actually happened, not hypotheticals, he was never stopped or shut down by anyone, white or black, 6-8 or 7-2, role player or first ballot HOFer.

The fact that he feasted on inferior competition shouldn't be held against him. The reason we call it "inferior competition" is precisely because he's so good compared to it. Imagine switching LeBron (you're a LeBron guy, right?) and Wilt Chamberlain. You put LeBron in the NBA in that era and he would dominate, because he's, well, LeBron... might even average something like a 40 point, 15 rebound triple double at his peak due to pace.

Video game stats, basically... but he wouldn't get any respect from people using the same arguments as you. Whatever he did, it "wouldn't count" for some bogus reason. 60s LeBron scores 80 with 30 rebounds, or puts up 60 points and 20 assists? Doesn't count, he'd be a glorified James Johnson in this league. People would find any excuse to diminish him... they'd say LeBron doesn't have any post moves, he just bullies his way to the rim... Worse, they'd say "he'd get dominated by Carmelo Anthony/Paul George/etc.", guys he actually faced in reality and out-dueled! How frustrating would it be for you to have to explain how good LeBron was to those guys?


Again, so Wilt is basically a very athletic big man who could play defense.

So what. He isn't dropping 50 ppg in a season vs Kareem or in modern NBA. He did that in an era of shorter unathletic white guys. It's a fact that white people, on average, cannot jump as high. It's just not in our genes, compared to blacks.

Wilt an athletic big who could play D. Oh wow. So what. Kareem still dropped 50 on wilt.

Kareem and Shaq are better.

[Dr.J4ever]

So at best, Wilt was an athletic big who could play defense.

He doesn't score 50ppg on Kareem though does he.

Inflated stats from a crappy era

Get real. Wilt wasn't prime in this video, and he still scored a lot and boarded a lot vs KAJ. Fair is fair.

[STATUTORY]

hard to take pre ABA merger era NBA seriously

[Inactive]

So at best, Wilt was an athletic big who could play defense. No, that's at worst. In the twilight of his career, in a reduced offensive role, the guy was still more physically dominating, and better on the glass than young Kareem.

At best he's the GOAT offensive center, top 2-3 most physically gifted, top 2 rebounder, and good defender.

[Marchesk]

Please. Adjust for pace and... god. Rodman was a way better rebounder than Wilt, not close. And Kobe's 81 was more impressive than Wilt's 100, also not very close.

The pace was so different back then. Stop comparing them.

Forget about the actual numbers then, and name a player in league history besides Wilt who:

Led the league in scoring 7 times, rebounding 11 times, FG% 9 times, and assists 1 time (only time a center has ever done this).

If blocked shots were recorded, it would be Wilt or Russell ever year.

Now looking at one of Wilt's actual numbers, his 50.4 ppg is 12.1 higher than the next player's highest ppg of that era (Baylor with 38.3).

Now about the 50 25 season. Wilt's team, the Philadelphia Warriors, averaged 125.4 ppg. They were second in the league. Clearly a higher paced game, but it wasn't like 150 a game.

So let's adjust for pace for this past season, where the league average was 97.9.

Adjusted for pace, Wilt's 50.4 would be 39.3 today. His adjusted rebounds would be 14.5. Assists would stay about the same, given the more stringent rules for assists back then equaling out for adjust pace. So 2.4. His estimated blocks were 6-8 per game his entire career. We'll say adjust 4-6.

So we're looking at 39.3 14.5 2.4 5. Real shabby adjusted for a 97.9 pace.

[Marchesk]

Miami has the worst center rotation in the NBA, but even then because of the overall team athleticism and size (Lebron is 260 with extreme athleticism while their biggest player was 235 with less athleticism LOL.) the swarming defense would at least keep him at normal non video game numbers. Even Joel is 6'9 250 which is 15 pounds bigger than their biggest). He would not average 50/25 against Miami like he did against those non athletic undersized scrubs from back then. Even if he dominated Miami it would be a normal 28/13 type performance assuming he was as good as they say.

Well, Hibbert averaged 22.1 ppg 10.3 rbp and 3.2 bpg against Miami in the conference finals. Not too much of a stretch to think Wilt could do better than 28/13 against that weak interior defense.

[Marchesk]

Nobody is saying Wilt is not great. In fact, he's a fantastic player in his era, a era specific player. Does this mean his game translates to other eras? No. Does that mean he sucks? No.

Bob Cousy is an era specific player. A guy who would be listed 7'2-7'3" who had athleticism, skill and muscle can be great in any era. Tell me how Wilt isn't near the top in blocked shots, rebounding and at least scoring 25+ today? Who is his competition at center? Dwight Howard? :roll:

Seriously, what center do you have today who would be better than Wilt? Go ahead, name one.

[kshutts1]

The block at the 2:40 mark.. :eek:

Pretty awesome video (the actual video, not the content, getting to that). It was quite well done. Thanks for it, CavsFTW.

As for the content... why did you choose college highlights? It sounds cliche, but the majority of his competition (in this video) really was short (relatively), white, and not pro material. I saw a lot of telegraphed passes, stupid decisions, etc, and I only watched the first 3 mins.

I LOLed at the "hightlights" of Wilt hitting FTs. Give me 10 mins with that dude and I'd make sure he smooths his form out. Should have helped his %. How did none of his coaches see that? Or did he work on that throughout his pro career, and the results never came, similar to Shaq?

The way Chamberlain got basically every rebound that was within 7 feet of him was stupid impressive. I'd love to see him play with the SportsVU technology (or whatever it's called). Wow.

[Marchesk]

So what. He isn't dropping 50 ppg in a season vs Kareem or in modern NBA. He did that in an era of shorter unathletic white guys. It's a fact that white people, on average, cannot jump as high. It's just not in our genes, compared to blacks..

Yep, Bird was shit. What a slow, non-athletic white dude who couldn't jump at all. That's why all those athletic guys from the 80s not named MJ are listed ahead of him all time. :banghead:

How many times does Steve Nash getting back to back MVPs a few seasons ago need to be brought up? What kind of weak era do we live in these days?

You guys are losing this "he dominated whites dude", and you're losing badly. For every mention of Wilt dominating some slow footed, short (in comparison) white guy, we can answer back with plenty of examples from the 80s onward. Give it up already. Do we need jlauber with walls of text demonstrating the HOF black centers Wilt faced before Kareem?

[Marchesk]

Man, I'm salty as fuvk now. Anyone going to answer Shaq dominating dudes that were no where near his physique? Or are you guys criticizing Wilt just going to be hypocritical?

[Nastradamus]

Wilt's stats were inflated by era, but he'd still have been considered pretty great in any era. At the least he'd have been Ewing.

[Fresh Kid]

dwight howard would cry like a little girl if he faced wilt.

[CavaliersFTW]

Insidehoops:

http://i.imgur.com/buIwzkn.png

http://i.imgur.com/J4lt5rk.png

http://i.imgur.com/K1lhXXF.png

http://i.imgur.com/25EUCAU.png


VS

Everyone else:

http://i.imgur.com/BE6shQc.png

http://i.imgur.com/uevifPo.png

http://i.imgur.com/vWoaNMAh.png

http://i.imgur.com/kJf3eKhh.png

http://i.imgur.com/l10HlJk.png



Full album: http://imgur.com/a/SclhY

Basically ISH's Lebron and Kobe stans are in total state of PANICK right now

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w4kmPds2xNs/UeYO51kxqHI/AAAAAAAAEeE/APeVkSD7Pb4/s800/ishnerd.jpg

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt's stats were inflated by era, but he'd still have been considered pretty great in any era. At the least he'd have been Ewing.
So basically your saying u could drop Ewing in those highlights and he'd wow 100,000 people overnight and make many of them reconsider who the GOAT really is the same way Wilt just did? Slow-footed can't-jump 6-10 Ewing? Same height as the opposing center in the 3rd game Ewing? :oldlol:

[JMT]

You are Still Going On With the Era-specific player crap?:roll: :facepalm So Jordan Would Only Dominate in the 80s? Not the 90s? Not the 2000s? Get Real Kid! :rolleyes:


9erempire and his era specific crap drops the IQ of this place by double digits. And those are points it really can't afford to lose.

[jlip]

If you are a dominant college player in 2013 your competition is so weak that over 90% of them will never see an NBA court.

[Psileas]

Again, so Wilt is basically a very athletic big man who could play defense.

So what. He isn't dropping 50 ppg in a season vs Kareem or in modern NBA. He did that in an era of shorter unathletic white guys. It's a fact that white people, on average, cannot jump as high. It's just not in our genes, compared to blacks.

Wilt an athletic big who could play D. Oh wow. So what. Kareem still dropped 50 on wilt.

Kareem and Shaq are better.

Even if you were right, even if we ignore that you conveniently left out that Kareem and Shaq had themselves also dominated plenty of scrubs and stiffs at college (also, LeBron at H.S), we don't need to see a Bugatti Veyron surpass a Ferrari to realize that it's a hell of a fast car. Similarly, even if Wilt had never faced any great opponent (which he did, plenty of times), reasonable people would still realize he was a hell of a player and athlete.

And, yes, Kareem once dropped 50 on Wilt. And he once was held to 15/6/2 on 7-21 FG's (not even HALF his averages that season) by Wilt.

[TheTenth]

Honestly, this makes me sad. Some of the comments here are the epitome of disrespectful and myopic disillusion. First, at least thank Cavs for his hard work in collecting, compiling, and presenting the video... is that so hard to do? Secondly, isn't it a bit ridiculous to call a player who played in multiple eras an "era-specific player?" Don't they know Wilt was still getting offered to play in the 1970s/80s/and early 90s, at an unprecedented age? I guess the owners didn't think he was an era specific player even at 40+...

Btw, since there is some white guy hate, why not compare some of these white guys based on adjusted stats/per36, which account for pace?

6'10 Bob Pettit vs. 6'11 Dirk Nowitzki
Bob Pettit
Season RPG AST PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
PER36 10.48 2.85 2.64 22.35 0.493 0.766

Dirk Nowitzki
Season RPG AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
PER36 8.07 2.79 0.93 0.97 2.03 2.67 23.06 0.486 0.394 0.861

Or 6'3 Bob Cousy vs. 6'3 Steve Nash
Bob Cousy
Season RPG AST PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
PER36 4.05 7.98 2.17 19.03 0.446 0.810

Steve Nash
Season RPG AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
PER36 3.41 10.38 0.88 0.11 3.55 1.99 16.88 0.503 0.442 0.888

Or 6'7 Paul Arizin vs. 6'7 Chris Mullin (pre-injury)
Paul Arizin
Season RPG AST PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
Average: 5.40 2.27 3.27 20.58 0.488 0.808

Chris Mullin-(pre-injury)
Season RPG AST PF PTS FG% 3P% FT%
Average: 4.14 3.42 2.19 20.59 0.496 0.839

^ It doesn't show up neat and tidy, but the point is that these white guys have been putting scary similar numbers across eras.

[Pointguard]

WHoa!

Jeeesh.

Great Work Cav's!

[RRR3]

I don't get why people who identify themselves as "Lakers fans" hate on Wilt. :coleman:

[CavaliersFTW]

I don't get why people who identify themselves as "Lakers fans" hate on Wilt. :coleman:
They aren't Lakers fans, they are Kobe stans. Wilt is perceived as a direct threat to Kobe and belittled by them accordingly. It's sad really :lol

[fpliii]

:applause: Thanks for your hard work CavsFTW!

[DCL]

what is the agenda of speeding up the video 3X or 4X normal speed ? :lol

[fpliii]

what is the agenda of speeding up the video 3X or 4X normal speed ? :lol

I'm not a Wilt guy, but I don't get this criticism. On one hand pace is used to categorically dismiss statistical performances. If someone wants to make those adjustments, that's fine. But how can you at the same time, when presented with guys playing at that speed, complain about it being unrealistic? As CavsFTW has noted, just watch the ball physics.

[DCL]

I'm not a Wilt guy, but I don't get this criticism. On one hand pace is used to categorically dismiss statistical performances. If someone wants to make those adjustments, that's fine. But how can you at the same time, when presented with guys playing at that speed, complain about it being unrealistic? As CavsFTW has noted, just watch the ball physics.

the clip is long. not every part is sped up, but some parts, especially in the beginning, are clearly in fast motion.

[CavaliersFTW]

the clip is long. not every part is sped up, but some parts, especially in the beginning, are clearly in fast motion.
lol... sure they are

[fpliii]

the clip is long. not every part is sped up, but some parts, especially in the beginning, are clearly in fast motion.

Watch the ball physics. How are they unrealistic? If you slow them down, the bouncing won't be sound.

Completely disagree with those complaints. Again there are criticisms that can be made I'm sure, but this one is definitely out of the question (unless you're suggesting that he only sped up when there was no ball movement, which is prett weird).

[CavaliersFTW]

Watch the ball physics. How are they unrealistic? If you slow them down, the bouncing won't be sound.

Completely disagree with those complaints. Again there are criticisms that can be made I'm sure, but this one is definitely out of the question (unless you're suggesting that he only sped up when there was no ball movement, which is prett weird).
They're just witch hunting. No actual issue with playback speed - but 1 person mentions it as a running gag and the rest follow suit. I must have read a thousand comments of peoples reactions to the vid all over the internet outside of ISH before posting this thread and not a single person mentions playback speed... only ISH does :oldlol:

[Marchesk]

They're just witch hunting. No actual issue with playback speed - but 1 person mentions it as a running gag and the rest follow suit. I must have read a thousand comments of peoples reactions to the vid all over the internet outside of ISH before posting this thread and not a single person mentions playback speed... only ISH does :oldlol:

I do like how you made Wilt look faster than the slow white dudes. What kind of software you using? :rolleyes:

[fpliii]

They're just witch hunting. No actual issue with playback speed - but 1 person mentions it as a running gag and the rest follow suit. I must have read a thousand comments of peoples reactions to the vid all over the internet outside of ISH before posting this thread and not a single person mentions playback speed... only ISH does :oldlol:

This is probably what it is lol.

Either way I'm looking forward to your next videos, as always. :cheers:

If you're looking for suggestions, maybe a power mix of the best overpowering dunks and blocks you have (I remember a cool Kareem/Wilt video on your channel).

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Nice vid. Wilt would definitely be great in any era (wouldn't average 50 though of course).

OT:
But are there any examples of really athletic/long players who weren't very good in that era? Like Deandre Jordan, Javale etc..

[TheTenth]

Nice vid. Wilt would definitely be great in any era (wouldn't average 50 though of course).

OT:
But are there any examples of really athletic/long players who weren't very good in that era? Like Deandre Jordan, Javale etc..
Johnny Green is one that comes to mind for me...

[KyrieTheFuture]

I dont understand the speed up criticism here it's not like you only made Wilt move faster. Everyone is moving faster so Wilt's athletic superiority isn't exacerbated it's constant. I don't see a problem.

[Marchesk]

But are there any examples of really athletic/long players who weren't very good in that era? Like Deandre Jordan, Javale etc..

Swede Halbrook - 7'3". He only played two seasons, averaging 5.5ppg and 6.6 rpg. But he only played 14 minutes a game. He had problems going missing in college and the pros. Dissapeared for a week and the police had to go looking for him. He ended up getting cut.

Actually sounds like he could have been a fairly good player. His pro coach said he could have had a good career if he took care of himself.

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/142011534-swede-halbrook-of-the-syracuse-nationals-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=Z0zsWpN2ukUDXYqF4boPJWTnxoR8jrnglu%2fJ9iOyl0QPoI tzUZaL4ji8I07Hz%2bInmCjVzCojqkhRC81sfcLxEMIwBKNSnB tjPoxov6pLlrM%3d

[JMT]

Nice vid. Wilt would definitely be great in any era (wouldn't average 50 though of course).

OT:
But are there any examples of really athletic/long players who weren't very good in that era? Like Deandre Jordan, Javale etc..

There weren't many. If you couldn't play basketball in that era, you weren't in the NBA. Those were grown men who did this to make a living. There was no "developmental" time.

[CavaliersFTW]

Johnny Green is one that comes to mind for me...
Gene Wiley and Leroy Ellis also

[selrahc]

nobody even playing defense... if wilt played in todays nba he would barely average 18/10

[CavaliersFTW]

nobody even playing defense... if wilt played in todays nba he would barely average 18/10
Post the minute marks of all the clips where nobody played defense please. There's 20 minutes of footage you've got plenty to start watching, aaaaand go:

[Marchesk]

nobody even playing defense... if wilt played in todays nba he would barely average 18/10

And what would Kareem average? I know the centers today are like 7'5", 340 pound monsters and with 48" verticals, but damn, Kareem had that skyhook. The unblockable shot, except for Wilt.

Bigger, stronger, faster baby! I mean, Dwight would just eat Kareem alive, right?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

There weren't many. If you couldn't play basketball in that era, you weren't in the NBA. Those were grown men who did this to make a living. There was no "developmental" time.
Not saying they sucked. Javale and Deandre don't suck. They both belong in the nba. Just aren't as good as their athleticism.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I might be a little late but has anyone noticed how unathletic his competition is? :confusedshrug:

[OhNoTimNoSho]

nobody even playing defense... if wilt played in todays nba he would barely average 18/10
18 and 10??? yeah right, a scrub like Wilt would be lucky to put up 12 and 7 in todays mega nba with superhuman athletes.

[9erempiree]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/089/4/1/skyhookgif3_by_dantheman9758-d4uenol.gif

I love Kareem and many know it on here but does anyone get the feeling that Kareem is soft in this video.

What is up with feeding the ball right to Wilt. Kareem was throwing some weak stuff right there. Shaq would have try to body him up to score while Kareem was just feeding the ball to Wilt.

[CavaliersFTW]

I love Kareem and many know it on here but does anyone get the feeling that Kareem is soft in this video.

What is up with feeding the ball right to Wilt. Kareem was throwing some weak stuff right there. Shaq would have try to body him up to score while Kareem was just feeding the ball to Wilt.
Plus that skyhook block clip was sped up to make Wilt look better

[Pointguard]

I love Kareem and many know it on here but does anyone get the feeling that Kareem is soft in this video.

What is up with feeding the ball right to Wilt. Kareem was throwing some weak stuff right there. Shaq would have try to body him up to score while Kareem was just feeding the ball to Wilt.
Might be the first time players seen the dream shake. His moves are sharp, quick, creative and decisive. Nothing soft. His release points are about a half of foot higher than Dirk's who never showed those type of pre-moves before his shot. Nobody else was blocking those shots without moves.

[Marchesk]

18 and 10??? yeah right, a scrub like Wilt would be lucky to put up 12 and 7 in todays mega nba with superhuman athletes.

7'1" with a 40-42" vertical, and could have been a star decathelete if he had chosen track over basketball. Yeah, he wouldn't compete with today's centers. Those dudes make DRob and Hakeem look silly.

Bigger, stronger, faster! Shaq would get bullied today. Centers are a different animal in this superhuman era.

[Marchesk]

Some of those unathletic white guys from the 60s:

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=2m56s

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=3m28s

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=3m54s

[AngelEyes]

One of the best videos I've seen in some time. Looking forward to more videos from you Cavs.

[9erempiree]

Judging from some of the comments, you would thought he was better than MJ.

[TheTenth]

Judging from some of the comments, you would thought he was better than MJ.
Which is a valid opinion.

[Marchesk]

Judging from some of the comments, you would thought he was better than MJ.

If Wilt had won a few more titles, he might have gone down as unanimous goat. But Russell hogged the titles from that era.

As for better basketball player? You're comparing a center to a SG from different eras. It's better to ask who had the most impact on the game, or who had the most accomplished career.

Now if we magically could have a goat draft from the age the goats left college, it would be real interesting to see who people were picking at the top. Are you going to take MJ over one of the goat bigs? My guess is such a draft would go something like this:

1) Shaq
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem or Duncan
5) MJ

with MJ being the first non-big to get drafted. Even though history proved the Bulls got the better pick in the 1984 draft. But with guys taking goat bigs at the top, there is going to be a run on them.

And if hypothetical GMs could work the goats out before they played, then it would be Wilt or Shaq at the very top, then Kareem.

[CavaliersFTW]

If Wilt had won a few more titles, he might have gone down as unanimous goat. But Russell hogged the titles from that era.

As for better basketball player? You're comparing a center to a SG from different eras. It's better to ask who had the most impact on the game, or who had the most accomplished career.

Now if we magically could have a goat draft from the age the goats left college, it would be real interesting to see who people were picking at the top. Are you going to take MJ over one of the goat bigs? My guess is such a draft would go something like this:

1) Shaq
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem or Duncan
5) MJ

with MJ being the first non-big to get drafted. Even though history proved the Bulls got the better pick in the 1984 draft. But with guys taking goat bigs at the top, there is going to be a run on them.

And if hypothetical GMs could work the goats out before they played, then it would be Wilt or Shaq at the very top, then Kareem.
Straight from college Hakeem and MJ wouldn't even be on the list. And Bill Russell, Wilt, and Kareem could all arguably be higher than Shaq unless of course ur just looking at what a specimen Shaq was. Guys like Pistol Pete or Bill Walton would easily be higher than Hakeem or MJ as far as their stock coming out of the NCAA though.

[jlip]

There weren't many. If you couldn't play basketball in that era, you weren't in the NBA. Those were grown men who did this to make a living. There was no "developmental" time.

You bring up a good point. Also, with fewer teams there just weren't enough roster spots for several one dimensional specialists like distance shooters (i.e. Kapono, Kerr, James Jones etc.) or random athletic freaks with no game. In a 30 team league you can literally have 14 sub .500 teams filled primarily with super athletic scrubs and 3 point shooters.

[TheTenth]

If Wilt had won a few more titles, he might have gone down as unanimous goat. But Russell hogged the titles from that era.

As for better basketball player? You're comparing a center to a SG from different eras. It's better to ask who had the most impact on the game, or who had the most accomplished career.

Now if we magically could have a goat draft from the age the goats left college, it would be real interesting to see who people were picking at the top. Are you going to take MJ over one of the goat bigs? My guess is such a draft would go something like this:

1) Shaq
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem or Duncan
5) MJ

with MJ being the first non-big to get drafted. Even though history proved the Bulls got the better pick in the 1984 draft. But with guys taking goat bigs at the top, there is going to be a run on them.

And if hypothetical GMs could work the goats out before they played, then it would be Wilt or Shaq at the very top, then Kareem.
I disagree with that list only because of the hype some of the bigs had out of college, I don't think Shaq had such hype coming out of college as say a Walton, Kareem, or Wilt did...

Edit: As Cavs said, even Pistol Pete...

[9erempiree]

I disagree with that list only because of the hype some of the bigs had out of college, I don't think Shaq had such hype coming out of college as say a Walton, Kareem, or Wilt did...

Edit: As Cavs said, even Pistol Pete...

There was no hype for Shaq because he was consensus number 1 pick and experts knew he was going to be a superstar right out of college.

I've followed Shaq in LSU, heck, CBS televised a lot of their games. He was that good. No hype at all. He earned it.

[Marchesk]

Straight from college Hakeem and MJ wouldn't even be on the list. And Bill Russell, Wilt, and Kareem could all arguably be higher than Shaq unless of course ur just looking at what a specimen Shaq was. Guys like Pistol Pete or Bill Walton would easily be higher than Hakeem or MJ as far as their stock coming out of the NCAA though.

No, because you don't draft based on how good a college player someone is, you draft based on how good a pro you think they will be. And there is no way you pick a Pistol Pete over Hakeem. As for Mike, it was obvious that he was super athletic and had the skill to go with it at North Carolina. His game would absolutely translate to the pros, and his ceiling was very high.

Now Walton, I always forget about because his injuries limited his pro career. So maybe you take Walton before Hakeem or Duncan. I'll grant you that.

[Marchesk]

There was no hype for Shaq because he was consensus number 1 pick and experts knew he was going to be a superstar right out of college.

I've followed Shaq in LSU, heck, CBS televised a lot of their games. He was that good. No hype at all. He earned it.

Yeah, Shaq was obviously a freak of nature and once in a generation basketball player. You take him without hesitation.

If I had comic book powers, I'd arrange this hypothetical world where all the top 200 all-time players at the age they left college were to be drafted in a snaking fantasy draft to populate 20 teams. The GMs have no idea of their history in the real world. But they do get to work out all the players.

I'd be really, really fascinated to see how that draft turned out.

[TheTenth]

There was no hype for Shaq because he was consensus number 1 pick and experts knew he was going to be a superstar right out of college.

I've followed Shaq in LSU, heck, CBS televised a lot of their games. He was that good. No hype at all. He earned it.
Wait, you aren't trolling?

Anyways you are using "historian's fallacy" and whether or not Shaq lived up to the "hype" or not is not what is being discussed, it's the actual hype that he had at the time.

[millwad]

Some of those unathletic white guys from the 60s:

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=2m56s

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=3m28s

http://youtu.be/4seN0mugh1k?t=3m54s

You're trying to hard, a majority of the players in the league back in the the 60's had one thing in common, they were white.

And a majority of the dunks in the video were wide open one's.

[millwad]

You bring up a good point. Also, with fewer teams there just weren't enough roster spots for several one dimensional specialists like distance shooters (i.e. Kapono, Kerr, James Jones etc.) or random athletic freaks with no game. In a 30 team league you can literally have 14 sub .500 teams filled primarily with super athletic scrubs and 3 point shooters.

Oh, cut it out.

The league was absolutely full of scrubs, even the Boston Celtics. Like I randomly checked the stats of the Boston Celtic players from '62..

They had freaking Willie Naulls averaging 10 points per game on 38% shooting while playing 20 minutes per game. The league was full of less skilled players than Kapono, Kerr and Jones.

[CavaliersFTW]

You're trying to hard, a majority of the players in the league back in the the 60's had one thing in common, they were white.

And a majority of the dunks in the video were wide open one's.
No Wilt thread is complete w/o you, Jlauber and Deuce's 2 cents :lol

[Haymaker]

What's this era-specific bullshit? Wilt would've dominated even more in this weak center era than in his time. He was a unique athletic specimen with great skills.

[EnoughSaid]

Wilt would kill in any era. Probably the most athletic center, alongside Shaq, to ever play the game.

[jlip]

Oh, cut it out.

The league was absolutely full of scrubs, even the Boston Celtics. Like I randomly checked the stats of the Boston Celtic players from '62..

They had freaking Willie Naulls averaging 10 points per game on 38% shooting while playing 20 minutes per game. The league was full of less skilled players than Kapono, Kerr and Jones.



If you understood context and had the ability to be remotely objective about anything related to Wilt or his era you would understand that my post was an addendum to a previous post which was addressing a question. The question was:



OT:
But are there any examples of really athletic/long players who weren't very good in that era? Like Deandre Jordan, Javale etc..

The point in my post was not that there were no unskilled players or scrubs during the 60s. There were, but my point was that with such fewer teams there would not be enough spots for a recognizable abundance that you would have in a modern 30 team league. For every 1 athletic scrub or one dimensional specialist in an 10 team league in the 60's there are 3 or 4 in a 30 team league today.

[millwad]

If you understood context and had the ability to be remotely objective about anything related to Wilt or his era you would understand that my post was an addendum to a previous post which was addressing a question. The question was:

.

Your post was pure nonsense and you know it.

The skillset of the average player from the 60's is way, way lower compared to today. There's not a single NBA player from year 2013 who's not good enough to play in the 60's.

[CavaliersFTW]

Your post was pure nonsense and you know it.

The skillset of the average player from the 60's is way, way lower compared to today. There's not a single NBA player from year 2013 who's not good enough to play in the 60's.
Joel Anthony lol

[jlip]

Your post was pure nonsense and you know it.

The skillset of the average player from the 60's is way, way lower compared to today. There's not a single NBA player from year 2013 who's not good enough to play in the 60's.

We're not even having the same conversation. You're hopeless. I'm done.:facepalm

[Euroleague]

At this time, you just see a huge big man, that is an absolute freak athlete. But, other than making some free throws (with a horribly ugly looking shot), he displayed no skills at all.

I still say Hakeem is hands down the best center ever, and nothing I saw here changes my mind on that.

[millwad]

Joel Anthony lol

Bogus, G, and you know it.

[SpecialQue]

My dick ain't been soft ever since watching that video. :eek:

[millwad]

We're not even having the same conversation. You're hopeless. I'm done.:facepalm

You're mentally retarded.

[FKAri]

Oh lord this nikka at it again.

Buncha short, skinny, clumsy ass dudes. Would be lucky to step foot onto a blacktop without losing the court let alone play professionally today. Stop disrespecting modern elite athletes who are highly skilled, conditioned, coordinated, and focussed (:bowdown: ) with these cotdayum scrubs playin ball cuz they couldnt get any other job(:facepalm ).

[Calabis]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

You cannot expect regular people to have an opinion especially when they don't can't factor the reasons I mentioned above.

The casual fan doesn't even know what an Era-specific player is.



A 7'1 athletic freak would be shit in today's extraordinary league of great big men......:rolleyes:

[JMT]

The skillset of the average player from the 60's is way, way lower compared to today. There's not a single NBA player from year 2013 who's not good enough to play in the 60's.

I'd agree at most every position but center.

The game has changed and with it there are fewer and fewer great big men. Sure, there are more 7' jump shooters. But trying to compare apples to apples, it's pure foolishnes to think that Wilt wouldn't continue to dominate today's centers. Hell, even the best "centers" today are glorified power forwards who can play the post because of a solid skill set and the lack of quality opposition.

There aren't that many today that Nate Thurmond wouldn't toy with, let alone Chamberlain.

[Euroleague]

Some Posters Keep Mentioning the Word "White" as if That Made You a Bad Player Cause of "Being that Color"

Maikan
Cousy
Schayes
Pettit
Havlicek
Cowens
West
Walton
Maravich
Barry
Bird
McHale
Chambers
Sabonis
Eaton
Mullin
Price
Stockton
Nash
Ginobili
Gasol
Dirk
Love

They Also Unathletic "White" Scrubs?

Rule #1 of ISH = "white guys are all scrubs"

Rule #2 of ISH = "Euros (code word for white guys) are all scrubs"

[Calabis]

Oh lord this nikka at it again.

Buncha short, skinny, clumsy ass dudes. Would be lucky to step foot onto a blacktop without losing the court let alone play professionally today. Stop disrespecting modern elite athletes who are highly skilled, conditioned, coordinated, and focussed (:bowdown: ) with these cotdayum scrubs playin ball cuz they couldnt get any other job(:facepalm ).

Dwight Howard is the best center in the league :roll: .....how far have they evolved since Wilt?

[Marchesk]

At this time, you just see a huge big man, that is an absolute freak athlete. But, other than making some free throws (with a horribly ugly looking shot), he displayed no skills at all.

Really? No skills like catching the ball, rebounding, or jump shots from FT line in? I saw a guy with great hands who wasn't just dunking on slow, shorter white dudes. He had game.

[Marchesk]

Stop disrespecting modern elite athletes who are highly skilled, conditioned, coordinated, and focussed (:bowdown: ) with these cotdayum scrubs playin ball cuz they couldnt get any other job(:facepalm ).

The trolling on ISH scrapes the bottom of the barrel. Except for political forums.

I did use to think the 60s era was relatively weak and definitely much less athletic. I used to think that you could take any really good center, stick them back then, and they would be putting up Wilt-like numbers.

But I've seen enough video now to change my mind. The era isn't as weak as some make it out to be. I've seen enough dunks, amazing passes, and incredible blocks to think otherwise. And the top skilled players from that era, particularly the bigs, would absolutely be able to play today.

I'd like to know how many true seven footers you think in the history of basketball were more athletic than Wilt. For that matter, I'd like to know how many 6'10 and up guys you think were more athletic than Russell.

Or just name a few today in the league. Go ahead, what seven footer would you take over Wilt? What 6'10+ guy do you think is more athletic than Russell?

[Euroleague]

Really? No skills like catching the ball, rebounding, or jump shots from FT line in? I saw a guy with great hands who wasn't just dunking on slow, shorter white dudes. He had game.

That means he's a great athlete and he has good hands. That's nothing to do with being skilled.

He looked like a 7-2 version of Joey Dorsey. Which, don't get me wrong, that's really beastly.........but yeah, no skills really.

[Marchesk]

That means he's a great athlete and he has good hands. That's nothing to do with being skilled.

He looked like a 7-2 version of Joey Dorsey. Which, don't get me wrong, that's really beastly.........but yeah, no skills really.

Whatever, I'd take him over either Gasol any day.

[Euroleague]

Whatever, I'd take him over either Gasol any day.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

[CavaliersFTW]

That means he's a great athlete and he has good hands. That's nothing to do with being skilled.

He looked like a 7-2 version of Joey Dorsey. Which, don't get me wrong, that's really beastly.........but yeah, no skills really.
1. your wrong

2. even if your specifically talking about post moves, your still wrong

Wilt is not playing 1 on 1 in the post in the NCAA here - it would have been murder (for the other teams) if he had, he's playing against 2-3 zones that basically set up a collapsing picket fence of bodies between him and the basket and at NCU he even had to go against box and 1 zone. There's really no place for 1 on 1 pivot moves in these situations so he's moving well off the ball and scoring with shooting touch or scoring in transition accordingly. He's making it work with what the defense is throwing at him.

Also, he's 19/20 years old. If you think this = Wilt's offensive repertoire than why don't you watch 5 games of Hakeem when he was 19/20 years old and tell me how many moves you see him making in a 5 game stretch? He's actually a particularly good example of a center that took some time to develop his moves. If you looked at him through the same pigeonhole he'd look a lot less 'skilled' than the Hakeem you see in his NBA career YT scoring highlights.

[Marchesk]

WTF is that supposed to mean?

It means I'm taking him over a soft big with skills. I want my center dominating the glass, protecting the rim, and destroying opposing bigs in the paint. I don't want him shooting jumpers. If I have a choice, that is.

[Replay32]

Great vid. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing.

[TheTenth]

Bogus, G, and you know it.
Just from your diction, it's clear you don't want/don't have an argument.



He looked like a 7-2 version of Joey Dorsey. Which, don't get me wrong, that's really beastly.........but yeah, no skills really.
Skill is all relative to competition, it's impossible to have skills that haven't been invented yet. Yet Wilt could have developed the skills later in his life; which is moot because you are full of confirmation bias.


The trolling on ISH scrapes the bottom of the barrel. Except for political forums.
^ This sums it up in particular. No one is even looking at things objectively, most evaluation is done on personal opinion or agenda. Take this quote, which has a theme which I believe is right...


Rule #1 of ISH = "white guys are all scrubs"

Rule #2 of ISH = "Euros (code word for white guys) are all scrubs"
Now is it because of an actual disdain for the foolish claims that "whites in the 60s are scrubs" or is it because of the 2nd addendum which propagates his agenda?

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

I was hoping these were his 20,000 highlights...

[LAZERUSS]

There was no hype for Shaq because he was consensus number 1 pick and experts knew he was going to be a superstar right out of college.

I've followed Shaq in LSU, heck, CBS televised a lot of their games. He was that good. No hype at all. He earned it.

Actually Shaq wasn't even considered the best center on his own college team when he arrived at LSU...

http://www.nola.com/lsu/index.ssf/2012/12/former_lsu_basketball_player_s_1.html]


Roberts appeared headed for greatness coming out of poverty in Hopkins, S.C., where he led his Lower Richland High School team to two state titles. It didn't go over well when he signed with LSU. The ugly recruiting battle led to him leaving his high school graduation under armed escort for the airport and a flight to Baton Rouge.

At LSU he ran into difficulty immediately and was academically ineligible his freshman season, depriving him of a chance to play alongside freshman star Chris Jackson. Shaquille O'Neal arrived the next year giving LSU perhaps the most talented team in its history, even if it was only for one season.

A raw talent as a college freshman, O'Neal credited his improvement and eventual superstardom to having to work against the more polished Roberts every day in practice. Teammates would stop what they were doing to watch the two behemoths go at each other one-on-one. O'Neal could hang with Roberts around the basket, but was no match for him when Roberts would step outside and rain down feathery jump shots.

"He had it all; he was unstoppable," O'Neal said in a Sports Illustrated interview in 2009. "He was the better player."


So, no, Shaq was NOT on Wilt's or Kareem's level in college. Those two were already considered dominant NBA centers while in college, and neither disappointed the moment they stepped onto an NBA floor.

[LAZERUSS]

At this time, you just see a huge big man, that is an absolute freak athlete. But, other than making some free throws (with a horribly ugly looking shot), he displayed no skills at all.

I still say Hakeem is hands down the best center ever, and nothing I saw here changes my mind on that.

The Hakeem who held a 38-39 year old Kareem to 32 ppg on .630 shooting over the course of their first ten straight games...and who was outscored and badly outshot in their 23 career h2h's by a Kareem aged 37-41 years old? And old KAJ who could barely get 6 rpg, but was putting up games of 40, 43, and 46 (the last one on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes...and in which his coach was shredded in the media for allowing the bloodshed)? In fact, because of the brutal pastings that Hakeem received by a KAJ who was way past his prime, his coach had to put Sampson on Kareem in the WCF's?

Or maybe you mean the Hakeem that was destroyed by Shaq in their 28 career h2h's?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

[jongib369]

Working on a mix for that as we speak


:crazysam: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2012/8/5/1344200215879/Usain-Bolt-wins-011.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

hard to take pre ABA merger era NBA seriously

Give me a list of players from the ABA that would have been bonafide stars in the NBA (and not counting Rick Barry, who was great in both leagues) thru the 60's. Connie Hawkins...and that was it. How about up thru 70-71? Zelmo Beaty, who was about the 6th best center in the league in the 60's, and well past his prime, was the secnd best center in the ABA, behind a 6-9 Mel Daniels, who would have been a bottom tier starting center in the NBA in the 70's.

And players like Spencer Haywood, Charley Scott, and Jim McDaniels, who were great in the ABA, and merely good in the NBA?

In actuality, most of the best players in the ABA in the late 60's and early 70's, WERE already playing in the NBA long before the merger. The ABA's truly great players up until the merger were Dr. J, Gilmore, David Thompson, Dan Issel, and George Gervin. There were very good players like Bobby Jones and Swen Nater, as well, but they certainly didn't dominant in the NBA. And all of the above would have naturally been drafted in the NBA.

The fact was, the ABA had a bunch of average, to below-average players who either were merely decent in the NBA, or did not even make an NBA roster. This myth that the ABA had a ton of NBA talent was absurd. The average players in the ABA were no better, or worse, than the average players in the NBA. And the vast majority of them were no more than that. Do you honestly think these handful of truly great players would have had any more affect on the NBA, had they played in the NBA from day one? Aside from Gervin, virtually none of them played nearly as well in the NBA as they had in their ABA days.

[LAZERUSS]

I saw a lot of nonathletic white guys...

Yep, a young Wilt, who would go on to just overwhelm an NBA filled with Black stars, and several Black HOF centers.

BTW, I will be the first to admit that I didn't follow Tyler Hansbrough in college, but in the NBA playoffs that I watched , the man was stumbling clod with no skills at all. And yet, he was the College Player of the Year?

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Wilt was nothing more than a tall athletic freak, who could abuse his size and leaping ability over the smaller, unathletic white guys.

Modern NBA only lacks great Centers, because they are offensively limited. BUT modern NBA has many great DEFENSIVE centers. Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, etc........

and guys like that, Tyson, Dwight, etc... who are great defensive centers, would have feasted if they played back in Wilt's day on those scrubs. Their offensive games would have looked better.

This is essentially what Wilt is.

Overrated. Physical athletic freak who used his physical abilities to score and rebound on unathletic scrubs of his era. In modern NBA, Wilt isn't dropping 50 in a season. He would be a Dwight howard type player. He wouldn't be able to abuse people with simply his size and get so many easy points to inflate his stats. He'd be great defensively, but average offensively at about 15-20 ppg since he would be facing legit black athletes who can jump just as high as he can.

Overrated.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt was nothing more than a tall athletic freak, who could abuse his size and leaping ability over the smaller, unathletic white guys.

Modern NBA only lacks great Centers, because they are offensively limited. BUT modern NBA has many great DEFENSIVE centers. Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, etc........

and guys like that, Tyson, Dwight, etc... who are great defensive centers, would have feasted if they played back in Wilt's day on those scrubs. Their offensive games would have looked better.

This is essentially what Wilt is.

Overrated. Physical athletic freak who used his physical abilities to score and rebound on unathletic scrubs of his era. In modern NBA, Wilt isn't dropping 50 in a season. He would be a Dwight howard type player. He wouldn't be able to abuse people with simply his size and get so many easy points to inflate his stats. He'd be great defensively, but average offensively at about 15-20 ppg since he would be facing legit black athletes who can jump just as high as he can.

Overrated.
http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/21385037_wtf_reaction_gif.gif

[deja vu]

Wilt was nothing more than a tall athletic freak, who could abuse his size and leaping ability over the smaller, unathletic white guys.

Modern NBA only lacks great Centers, because they are offensively limited. BUT modern NBA has many great DEFENSIVE centers. Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, etc........

and guys like that, Tyson, Dwight, etc... who are great defensive centers, would have feasted if they played back in Wilt's day on those scrubs. Their offensive games would have looked better.

This is essentially what Wilt is.

Overrated. Physical athletic freak who used his physical abilities to score and rebound on unathletic scrubs of his era. In modern NBA, Wilt isn't dropping 50 in a season. He would be a Dwight howard type player. He wouldn't be able to abuse people with simply his size and get so many easy points to inflate his stats. He'd be great defensively, but average offensively at about 15-20 ppg since he would be facing legit black athletes who can jump just as high as he can.

Overrated.
Dude, you're reaching. 15-20 ppg? :facepalm Kevin Love averages 20-25+ ppg but Wilt couldn't? Sure, Wilt dominated unathletic centers but you make it look like Wilt was an unskilled, unathletic big guy like a poor man's Javale McGee. :roll:

Wilt was an extremely athletic and skilled center and he would have averaged 25+ ppg in today's NBA along with being the best defensive big man. So he would be better than Dwight on both ends of the floor. I daresay he would be the best center in the 90s too, which was the best era for centers.

Say what you want about Wilt's competition (unathletic stiffs), but the guy was a freak and could jump out of the gym. He couldn't choose his competition though. :roll:

[Marchesk]

Overrated. Physical athletic freak who used his physical abilities to score and rebound on unathletic scrubs of his era. In modern NBA, Wilt isn't dropping 50 in a season. He would be a Dwight howard type player. He wouldn't be able to abuse people with simply his size and get so many easy points to inflate his stats. He'd be great defensively, but average offensively at about 15-20 ppg since he would be facing legit black athletes who can jump just as high as he can.Overrated.

Like Russell? Dwight is four inches shorter than Wilt was. Did you see what Roy Hibbert did to the Knicks and Heat in the playoffs? You think Wilt can't do at least that?

[CavaliersFTW]

Dude, you're reaching. 15-20 ppg? :facepalm Kevin Love averages 20-25+ ppg but Wilt couldn't? Sure, Wilt dominated unathletic centers but you make it look like Wilt was an unskilled, unathletic big guy like a poor man's Javale McGee. :roll:

Wilt was an extremely athletic and skilled center and he would have averaged 25+ ppg in today's NBA along with being the best defensive big man. So he would be better than Dwight on both ends of the floor. I daresay he would be the best center in the 90s too, which was the best era for centers.

Say what you want about Wilt's competition (unathletic stiffs), but the guy was a freak and could jump out of the gym. He couldn't choose his competition though. :roll:
We're talking about the best offensive player of all time and he went up against the best defensive player of all time... that was his competition.

He dropped 63 on Russell and he AVERAGED 28 on him. He dropped 73 on Walt Bellamy who would be a top 5 center if he was in the league today. Wilt would lead the league in scoring if his coach asked him too, and he'd do it while leading the league in fg% simultaneously. The "he only scored on short white guys" thing is a myth. Wilt is the greatest offensive force in NBA history, his name isn't plastered all over the record books by mistake. I think even saying he'd score 25ppg is underestimating his impact if he's in his prime.

[jongib369]

We're talking about the best offensive player of all time and he went up against the best defensive player of all time... that was his competition.

He dropped 63 on Russell and he AVERAGED 28 on him. He dropped 73 on Walt Bellamy who would be a top 5 center if he was in the league today. Wilt would lead the league in scoring if his coach asked him too, and he'd do it while leading the league in fg% simultaneously. The "he only scored on short white guys" thing is a myth. Wilt is the greatest offensive force in NBA history, his name isn't plastered all over the record books by mistake. I think even saying he'd score 25ppg is underestimating his impact if he's in his prime.
What's your reasoning for ranking Wilt above Kareem and Jordan? The 2 that seem to almost always be ranked above him by most people.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

Dude, you're reaching. 15-20 ppg? :facepalm Kevin Love averages 20-25+ ppg but Wilt couldn't? Sure, Wilt dominated unathletic centers but you make it look like Wilt was an unskilled, unathletic big guy like a poor man's Javale McGee. :roll:

Wilt was an extremely athletic and skilled center and he would have averaged 25+ ppg in today's NBA along with being the best defensive big man. So he would be better than Dwight on both ends of the floor. I daresay he would be the best center in the 90s too, which was the best era for centers.

Say what you want about Wilt's competition (unathletic stiffs), but the guy was a freak and could jump out of the gym. He couldn't choose his competition though. :roll:

GTF outta here with that shit.

Look at the video the OP posted. HE IS THE ONLY BLACK MAN ON THE COURT IN MANY OF THOSE CLIPS !!!! The guys he was rebounding on are ALL SMALLER WHITE GUYS. Most of the time they DONT EVEN JUMP to contest. It's pathetic. Nevermind the fact that they don't even know how to box out, they aren't even jumping to contest. So they are smaller AND they don't jump.

Meanwhile, 7 foot Wilt is jumping all by himself, taller and longer than anyone there, so he gets easy blocks on those scrubs and easy rebounds, AND EASY LAYUPS.

LOOK AT ALL THE EASY POINTS HE GOT DOWN IN THE PAINT! That's not skill. That's size abuse.

Wilt isn't doing that shit in modern nba. He's Dwight Howard, period. Great defensive center due to his physical abilities, but his offensive game consists of easy points on smaller white guys who don't even jump to contest his shots. I am looking at the video, so many times I see the smaller white guy just "put his hands up" and not even jump and Wilt gets an easy 2pts in the paint.

That's not offensively skilled. GTFO.

Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem, ALL better than Wilt.

Overrated as ****. He is the beneficiary of being the first wave of black athletic freaks entering a sport that was primarily filled with non athletic white guys.

[3LiftHeatCurse]

The OP unknowingly doomed Wilt Chamberlain's legacy.

The constant placing of Wilt in top 3 lists is no more. You are going to see many people like me and others ITT that have now seen the proof that he was overrated due to his era, which many people had already claimed and suspected, but we never had proof so we simply went by legacy.

Now Wilt is ****ed. He's outta my top 3. Hakeem Shaq and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar were all better Centers. Heck, Jordan has a higher PPG than Wilt and that was in the modern NBA. If Jordan played back then< LOLLLLLLLLLLL he is averaging 70 ppg and blowing past all those white scrubs and dunking every possession. Jordan posterized LEGIT BLACK CENTERS IN MODERN NBA, he was unstoppable in modern nba, and you mean to tell me he still averaged 37 ppg on over 50% FG in a season? HE WOULD DROP 70 PPG ON THOSE SCRUBS OF WILTS ERA. **** that, even Kobe would finally be able to shoot 50% FG in a season back then.

OP unknowingly began the dooming of Wilt Chamberlain's legacy.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Nobody said he was a stiff and not athletic. We just said he was an Era Specific player who only dominates in his specific era due to many factors such as rules and competition.

You cannot expect regular people to have an opinion especially when they don't can't factor the reasons I mentioned above.

The casual fan doesn't even know what an Era-specific player is.

Y'all idiots don't know how basketball was in the 50s and 60s. All these Wilt would suck in today's era comments need to go to hell, eat shit, and die!

[Marchesk]

Heck, Jordan has a higher PPG than Wilt and that was in the modern NBA.

Wilt's avg was 38.5 through his first nine seasons, when he was expected to be the leading scorer. For comparison, that's higher than the next highest single season ppg by any player EVER not named Wilt Chamberlain. Yeah, Elgin averaged 38.3 one season. Wilt averaged more than that for nine freaking seasons!

It can be adjusted for pace. I'll give a rough calculation of 32.8 ppg at today's pace of about 98 ppg, given the average pace of around 115 ppg for Wilt's first nine seasons. Now MJ averaged 31.5 for his first nine seasons. The pace was 108 ppg. You know, there's really not that big of a difference from the 60s compared to 84-92 as far as ppg goes.

Anyway, that gives you 28.6 for Jordan at 98 ppg. Hmmmm. Now, Jordan was hurt his second season, so he only averaged 22.7 that year. Maybe I should replace it with his 30.4 in 95-96. That comes out to about 29.6, roughly.

So there you ago, quick adjusted for pace calculations puts Wilt at 32.8 in this past season, and Jordan at 29.6, averaging over their nine best scoring seasons.

[sundizz]

Wilt's avg was 38.5 through his first nine seasons, when he was expected to be the leading scorer. For comparison, that's higher than the next highest single season ppg by any player EVER not named Wilt Chamberlain. Yeah, Elgin averaged 38.3 one season. Wilt averaged more than that for nine freaking seasons!

It can be adjusted for pace. I'll give a rough calculation of 32.8 ppg at today's pace of about 98 ppg, given the average pace of around 115 ppg for Wilt's first nine seasons. Now MJ averaged 31.5 for his first nine seasons. The pace was 108 ppg. You know, there's really not that big of a difference from the 60s compared to 84-92 as far as ppg goes.

Anyway, that gives you 28.6 for Jordan at 98 ppg. Hmmmm. Now, Jordan was hurt his second season, so he only averaged 22.7 that year. Maybe I should replace it with his 30.4 in 95-96. That comes out to about 29.6, roughly.

So there you ago, quick adjusted for pace calculations puts Wilt at 32.8 in this past season, and Jordan at 29.6, averaging over their nine best scoring seasons.

This is stat crunching to it's absolute best of stupidity. The difference is much more based on the players than the pace.

If you took Kwame Brown and put him against the players in that clip he would of beasted moreso than Wilt. Wilt eventually went on and dominated in the NBA and against some studs. But that video posted is pathetic. It's like me playing against 5th graders. Even if I have skill I don't really need to use it. I just dominate easier through pure physical advanatges.

Wilt is 7 feet tall, athletic, strong, quick and fast. He's not Shaq explosive, or even David Robinson explosive, but he has the size. If Roy Hibbert can be a beast, Wilt would undoubtably be a beast in today's game. He'd put up 23-30 ppg, 12-17 rpg, 2 to 4 bpg on 50%+ shooting. It is quite impossible to say the exact numbers because we really don't know how today's defenses would affect him. Whether a 6'9 guy coming for the double team would make him give up the ball, or if he has the ability to spin baseline and powerjam it going through Tyson Chandler. We really just don't know. He'd be the best center in the league right now though no question. To what level of statistical, and what level of impact he has is purely speculation though.

If Wilt replaced Hibbert I dunno if Indiana could beat Miami. Maybe? Who really knows.

[Marchesk]

This is stat crunching to it's absolute best of stupidity. The difference is much more based on the players than the pace.

You missed the point of it. Pace is ALWAYS brought up with Wilt's numbers. So sometimes it's helpful to adjust his stats, particularly his scoring for today's pace. It's still outstanding. It's not an attempt to say what Wilt would actually average today. It's just to put it into perspective.

Wilt's 50 25 year is something like 40 15 (and the rebounding is less straight forward so +- 3) with today's pace. Some posters make it sound like the pace was 150 ppg. It wasn't. And they ignore that Jordan's first half of his career was at 10+ ppg more than now.

[Bandito]

Wilt speed as a center is unreal. He is one of a kind player. But I wonder if he was good at FT's?

[millwad]

We're talking about the best offensive player of all time and he went up against the best defensive player of all time... that was his competition.

He dropped 63 on Russell and he AVERAGED 28 on him. He dropped 73 on Walt Bellamy who would be a top 5 center if he was in the league today. Wilt would lead the league in scoring if his coach asked him too, and he'd do it while leading the league in fg% simultaneously. The "he only scored on short white guys" thing is a myth. Wilt is the greatest offensive force in NBA history, his name isn't plastered all over the record books by mistake. I think even saying he'd score 25ppg is underestimating his impact if he's in his prime.

I'm sorry but he's not the best offensive player of all-time, that's just nonsense.
Wilt was great at putting up big numbers in the regular season but he dropped big in the playoffs in terms of scoring and when he finally won he was no where close to being a GOAT type of scorer or offensive player.

Wilt only averaged 22.5 points per game on 52% shooting in the playoffs, that's lower than Shaq's average, Olajuwon's average and Kareem's average in the playoffs. Both in terms of points per game and FG%.

And with that said it shouldn't be forgotten that Wilt played in an era where they played at a much higher pace and he faced worse defense.

[millwad]

Wilt's avg was 38.5 through his first nine seasons, when he was expected to be the leading scorer. For comparison, that's higher than the next highest single season ppg by any player EVER not named Wilt Chamberlain. Yeah, Elgin averaged 38.3 one season. Wilt averaged more than that for nine freaking seasons!

It can be adjusted for pace. I'll give a rough calculation of 32.8 ppg at today's pace of about 98 ppg, given the average pace of around 115 ppg for Wilt's first nine seasons. Now MJ averaged 31.5 for his first nine seasons. The pace was 108 ppg. You know, there's really not that big of a difference from the 60s compared to 84-92 as far as ppg goes.

Anyway, that gives you 28.6 for Jordan at 98 ppg. Hmmmm. Now, Jordan was hurt his second season, so he only averaged 22.7 that year. Maybe I should replace it with his 30.4 in 95-96. That comes out to about 29.6, roughly.

So there you ago, quick adjusted for pace calculations puts Wilt at 32.8 in this past season, and Jordan at 29.6, averaging over their nine best scoring seasons.


Now adjust Wilt's 22.5 points per game in the playoffs average to modern era basketball. I like how Wilt supporters always forget the playoffs.

Wilt's PER 36 min scoring average in the playoffs is 17.2 points per game....

[PHILA]

or if he has the ability to spin baseline and powerjam it going through Tyson Chandler.

He did it to 6'10 Darrall Imhoff. This was one of his signature moves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY#t=2m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU#t=34m46s




He's Dwight Howard, period.

Dwight (this past year) can barely even bring the ball down to gather himself without getting stripped. He is not as strong as you would think looking at his chiseled shoulders. I don't know how big his hands are but he cannot keep bringing the ball down low like Wilt, Shaq, or Barkley did to gather themselves, since his grip and overall strength is weak compared to them. You would never see any of them get stripped under the basket like that.

Dwight's problem is not his so called lack of moves. We have seen him make a few nice moves before, but the problem is he doesn't know how read the defense and incorporate the moves into game situations. He really has regressed since 2011, and his offensive awareness really seems to be below par. When the Lakers were eliminated we saw Barkley and Shaq criticizing him on the post game show, and they understand. Both of them developed into tremendous passers out of the post over the years. Their entire game offensively was based on drawing help defense to open the game up for others. I get the idea that Dwight is going to Hakeem's sessions to improve his repertoire, but the fact is he will never be anywhere near that agile and deceptive. Hakeem should be sitting in the film room teaching him how to read the defense, if he is not already. If Wilt were still alive today, that is who I would tell Dwight to go work with. He is another one who developed into a tremendous passer as well from his early years with the Philadelphia Warriors.



The video below shows excellent ball movement in a game of "keep away" with Walker, Greer, & Wilt in a triangle setup where the Bullets defense dictates the Sixers quick passes, and big Luke Jackson comes from the weak side to clean up Greer's miss and clinch the Eastern Division Championship. Look closely at the Bullets defensive movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s


Below shows two fake passes to cutters followed by a power move to the basket, drawing four defenders and finding Billy C unguarded in front of the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=3m28s




Wilt's best season was 1967, and the Sixers offense that year would set up with splits and cutters moving off him, not unlike how Portland played off Bill Walton 10 years later, though Walton played in the high post more than Wilt. He could play high as well as low, but in the footage I have seen preferred the mid-post area a step or two off the block, to open up some room for the baseline cutters while also remaining a scoring threat. In this style of play, he is holding the ball high and constantly looking for cutters, who seldom stopped moving. In this action it is defense who is at Wilt's mercy if they don't hard double him, seeing as any of the other 4 players is a potential threat to score. The modern teams (2001-present) are not accustomed to defending anywhere near this kind of constant player movement, they are more used to defending zones or specific areas on the floor, which will also leave them prone to giving up offensive rebounds.

Remember there was no incentive to shoot from distance back then (3 point line), so there was a lot of cutting and player movement. On the baseline handoffs for instance, not only is Wilt acting as a playmaker, but he is also acting as a screen. In the splits, he is acting as a pick for both players as well. Here is an example in the All Star Game, where there is a defensive error and Wilt hands it off to Big O for the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phho8i6rj0Y&t=45s


The defensive objective for most teams would be to try and emulate what the Celtics and Russell did, which was full court press the guards and try to make them eat up a good chunk of the shot clock. Once in the front court, they will shade Wilt with another man to try and prevent the entry pass. Basically they have to try and limit his touches, which will probably open up some opportunities for others like Greer or Walker. But no fronting, that would almost be equal to surrendering two points.

Two examples of Russell fronting Wilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=4m42s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=17m21s (Celtics shading excessively on Wilt's preferred (left) side of the floor, leaves Wali Jones wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=23m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s



I don't know about others here, but I am seeing almost an arrogance in the way this Sixers team played offensively. They were very methodical & deliberate, not fast breaking as much as the other teams of the era. But they were also quick and very powerful on both backboards. Even Luke Jackson at 6'10, 260 lbs was agile enough to play a two man game with Wilt like this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=2m39s

Above we can see 3 specific plays I am talking about. In the first play, Cunningham fakes Gus Johnson out and instead hits Wilt, then cuts right to the basket with Johnson out of the play. In the 2nd clip, Walker hits Wilt in the low post, who feeds Greer cutting along the baseline for a layup. In the 3rd clip, the Celtics have K.C Jones shading Wilt off the ball, so they make an extra pass to have a proper angle for the entry pass, where the ball goes into him. All the while Russell is heavily leaning on Wilt to try and force him out of position, to no avail. Then he fake passes the ball twice including a fake handoff to Walker, subtly getting Russell off balance, and hits a quick turnaround bank shot. This is a play meant to force the switch, and Bob Ferry does not switch in the 2nd clip. Whoever is guarding Wilt will have to switch or try and cut off and trap that cutter along the baseline.

In the first example below, Imhoff steps up leaving Elgin alone with Wilt under the basket. In the 2nd clip, Russell stays back, and still cannot prevent the dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY&t=1m43s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=8m56s






Below is a clip of this attempted trap of Hal Greer by Havlicek and Embry, and Wilt makes himself available to Greer for the pass and dunk, unlike Dwight in the Miami game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TBz2phCgY). You may have to watch in slow motion to really see the whole play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=27m53s


A couple more examples of failed baseline traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=17m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=22m13s



Below Gus Johnson leaves Luke Jackson wide open under rim to try and steal the ball from Wilt's blind side, like Jordan did to Malone in the Finals. But that doesn't work here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCnrD94U-20&t=1m29s





athletes who can jump just as high as he can.

Look at how high his release point is on this hook shot. It doesn't look like much until you notice where the rim is. He is almost shooting it down into the basket. In the screenshot the ball is just a split second from leaving his hand. If he was getting the ball up high enough to dunk on his hook shots, it's no wonder he had a near unblockable shot. You had to rely more on timing than the challenging his vertical game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wsEE9oivvM&t=14m38s




http://i.imgur.com/msssnZn.png

http://i.imgur.com/jyep7B8.png

[jongib369]

He did it to 6'10 Darrall Imhoff. This was one of his signature moves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY#t=2m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU#t=34m46s





Dwight (this past year) can barely even bring the ball down to gather himself without getting stripped. He is not as strong as you would think looking at his chiseled shoulders. I don't know how big his hands are but he cannot keep bringing the ball down low like Wilt, Shaq, or Barkley did to gather themselves, since his grip and overall strength is weak compared to them. You would never see any of them get stripped under the basket like that.

Dwight's problem is not his so called lack of moves. We have seen him make a few nice moves before, but the problem is he doesn't know how read the defense and incorporate the moves into game situations. He really has regressed since 2011, and his offensive awareness really seems to be below par. When the Lakers were eliminated we saw Barkley and Shaq criticizing him on the post game show, and they understand. Both of them developed into tremendous passers out of the post over the years. Their entire game offensively was based on drawing help defense to open the game up for others. I get the idea that Dwight is going to Hakeem's sessions to improve his repertoire, but the fact is he will never be anywhere near that agile and deceptive. Hakeem should be sitting in the film room teaching him how to read the defense, if he is not already. If Wilt were still alive today, that is who I would tell Dwight to go work with. He is another one who developed into a tremendous passer as well from his early years with the Philadelphia Warriors.



The video below shows excellent ball movement in a game of "keep away" with Walker, Greer, & Wilt in a triangle setup where the Bullets defense dictates the Sixers quick passes, and big Luke Jackson comes from the weak side to clean up Greer's miss and clinch the Eastern Division Championship. Look closely at the Bullets defensive movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s


Below shows two fake passes to cutters followed by a power move to the basket, drawing four defenders and finding Billy C unguarded in front of the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=3m28s




Wilt's best season was 1967, and the Sixers offense that year would set up with splits and cutters moving off him, not unlike how Portland played off Bill Walton 10 years later, though Walton played in the high post more than Wilt. He could play high as well as low, but in the footage I have seen preferred the mid-post area a step or two off the block, to open up some room for the baseline cutters while also remaining a scoring threat. In this style of play, he is holding the ball high and constantly looking for cutters, who seldom stopped moving. In this action it is defense who is at Wilt's mercy if they don't hard double him, seeing as any of the other 4 players is a potential threat to score. The modern teams (2001-present) are not accustomed to defending anywhere near this kind of constant player movement, they are more used to defending zones or specific areas on the floor, which will also leave them prone to giving up offensive rebounds.

Remember there was no incentive to shoot from distance back then (3 point line), so there was a lot of cutting and player movement. On the baseline handoffs for instance, not only is Wilt acting as a playmaker, but he is also acting as a screen. In the splits, he is acting as a pick for both players as well. Here is an example in the All Star Game, where there is a defensive error and Wilt hands it off to Big O for the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phho8i6rj0Y&t=45s


The defensive objective for most teams would be to try and emulate what the Celtics and Russell did, which was full court press the guards and try to make them eat up a good chunk of the shot clock. Once in the front court, they will shade Wilt with another man to try and prevent the entry pass. Basically they have to try and limit his touches, which will probably open up some opportunities for others like Greer or Walker. But no fronting, that would almost be equal to surrendering two points.

Two examples of Russell fronting Wilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=4m42s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=17m21s (Celtics shading excessively on Wilt's preferred (left) side of the floor, leaves Wali Jones wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=23m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s



I don't know about others here, but I am seeing almost an arrogance in the way this Sixers team played offensively. They were very methodical & deliberate, not fast breaking as much as the other teams of the era. But they were also quick and very powerful on both backboards. Even Luke Jackson at 6'10, 260 lbs was agile enough to play a two man game with Wilt like this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=2m39s

Above we can see 3 specific plays I am talking about. In the first play, Cunningham fakes Gus Johnson out and instead hits Wilt, then cuts right to the basket with Johnson out of the play. In the 2nd clip, Walker hits Wilt in the low post, who feeds Greer cutting along the baseline for a layup. In the 3rd clip, the Celtics have K.C Jones shading Wilt off the ball, so they make an extra pass to have a proper angle for the entry pass, where the ball goes into him. All the while Russell is heavily leaning on Wilt to try and force him out of position, to no avail. Then he fake passes the ball twice including a fake handoff to Walker, subtly getting Russell off balance, and hits a quick turnaround bank shot. This is a play meant to force the switch, and Bob Ferry does not switch in the 2nd clip. Whoever is guarding Wilt will have to switch or try and cut off and trap that cutter along the baseline.

In the first example below, Imhoff steps up leaving Elgin alone with Wilt under the basket. In the 2nd clip, Russell stays back, and still cannot prevent the dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY&t=1m43s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=8m56s






Below is a clip of this attempted trap of Hal Greer by Havlicek and Embry, and Wilt makes himself available to Greer for the pass and dunk, unlike Dwight in the Miami game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TBz2phCgY). You may have to watch in slow motion to really see the whole play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=27m53s


A couple more examples of failed baseline traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=17m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=22m13s



Below Gus Johnson leaves Luke Jackson wide open under rim to try and steal the ball from Wilt's blind side, like Jordan did to Malone in the Finals. But that doesn't work here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCnrD94U-20&t=1m29s






Look at how high his release point is on this hook shot. It doesn't look like much until you notice where the rim is. He is almost shooting it down into the basket. In the screenshot the ball is just a split second from leaving his hand. If he was getting the ball up high enough to dunk on his hook shots, it's no wonder he had a near unblockable shot. You had to rely more on timing than the challenging his vertical game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wsEE9oivvM&t=14m38s




http://i.imgur.com/msssnZn.png

http://i.imgur.com/jyep7B8.png

:applause:

[Euroleague]

This entire thread is a joke.

[Dr.J4ever]

Nice stuff, Phila. You've seen those legendary Sixer teams? Grew up in Philly area, but was just a boy during the Dr.J years in the 80's.

[Dr.J4ever]

I used to be enthralled by modern basketball also. As a boy watching the great 1982-83 Sixers, I heard Sonny Hill talk about how great Wilt was comparing him to Moses Malone. I thought then, c'mon this is 1983, and that was 1967. Basketball must have grown a lot in 15 years, which is a lifetime when you're just a boy.

Today though, 15 years is like nothing. Heck, 15 years or so ago, MJ was dominating the NBA. No one today will even argue that Jordan would not be
the dominant player in the game today, if he were still playing, right?

I just think Wilt has to be considered the single most dominating big man, ever. If your fair, it's really not close. Even Russel might agree that as a single individual playing for himself, Wilt produced more dominating moments than
any other single player ever.

[PHILA]

You've seen those legendary Sixer teams?

Only in limited video footage. Many who saw them will rank them as the best single season team. Though it is unfair to compare to modern teams, who are limited by the salary cap. Even back then they were fortunate not only getting Wilt basically for cash, but also drafting Chet Walker, Luke Jackson, & Billy Cunningham to join veterans Hal Greer, Larry Costello, and Dave Gambee. In fact Chet was drafted back when they still were in Syracuse. Also the Wali Jones acquisition in 1965. Most of these moves were made under owner Ike Richman, who passed away in Dec. 1965. If he had lived I'm pretty sure Wilt stays instead of leaving in 1968 and they don't break the team up. The co-owner Irv Kosloff refused to acknowledge the unofficial agreement Wilt had in place with Richman that he would get part ownership of the franchise.

[f0und]

the most impressive thing about that video is his acceleration and speed. that *hit looks unreal given that he's 7'2".

[Psileas]

He did it to 6'10 Darrall Imhoff. This was one of his signature moves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY#t=2m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU#t=34m46s





Dwight (this past year) can barely even bring the ball down to gather himself without getting stripped. He is not as strong as you would think looking at his chiseled shoulders. I don't know how big his hands are but he cannot keep bringing the ball down low like Wilt, Shaq, or Barkley did to gather themselves, since his grip and overall strength is weak compared to them. You would never see any of them get stripped under the basket like that.

Dwight's problem is not his so called lack of moves. We have seen him make a few nice moves before, but the problem is he doesn't know how read the defense and incorporate the moves into game situations. He really has regressed since 2011, and his offensive awareness really seems to be below par. When the Lakers were eliminated we saw Barkley and Shaq criticizing him on the post game show, and they understand. Both of them developed into tremendous passers out of the post over the years. Their entire game offensively was based on drawing help defense to open the game up for others. I get the idea that Dwight is going to Hakeem's sessions to improve his repertoire, but the fact is he will never be anywhere near that agile and deceptive. Hakeem should be sitting in the film room teaching him how to read the defense, if he is not already. If Wilt were still alive today, that is who I would tell Dwight to go work with. He is another one who developed into a tremendous passer as well from his early years with the Philadelphia Warriors.



The video below shows excellent ball movement in a game of "keep away" with Walker, Greer, & Wilt in a triangle setup where the Bullets defense dictates the Sixers quick passes, and big Luke Jackson comes from the weak side to clean up Greer's miss and clinch the Eastern Division Championship. Look closely at the Bullets defensive movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s


Below shows two fake passes to cutters followed by a power move to the basket, drawing four defenders and finding Billy C unguarded in front of the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=3m28s




Wilt's best season was 1967, and the Sixers offense that year would set up with splits and cutters moving off him, not unlike how Portland played off Bill Walton 10 years later, though Walton played in the high post more than Wilt. He could play high as well as low, but in the footage I have seen preferred the mid-post area a step or two off the block, to open up some room for the baseline cutters while also remaining a scoring threat. In this style of play, he is holding the ball high and constantly looking for cutters, who seldom stopped moving. In this action it is defense who is at Wilt's mercy if they don't hard double him, seeing as any of the other 4 players is a potential threat to score. The modern teams (2001-present) are not accustomed to defending anywhere near this kind of constant player movement, they are more used to defending zones or specific areas on the floor, which will also leave them prone to giving up offensive rebounds.

Remember there was no incentive to shoot from distance back then (3 point line), so there was a lot of cutting and player movement. On the baseline handoffs for instance, not only is Wilt acting as a playmaker, but he is also acting as a screen. In the splits, he is acting as a pick for both players as well. Here is an example in the All Star Game, where there is a defensive error and Wilt hands it off to Big O for the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phho8i6rj0Y&t=45s


The defensive objective for most teams would be to try and emulate what the Celtics and Russell did, which was full court press the guards and try to make them eat up a good chunk of the shot clock. Once in the front court, they will shade Wilt with another man to try and prevent the entry pass. Basically they have to try and limit his touches, which will probably open up some opportunities for others like Greer or Walker. But no fronting, that would almost be equal to surrendering two points.

Two examples of Russell fronting Wilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=4m42s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=17m21s (Celtics shading excessively on Wilt's preferred (left) side of the floor, leaves Wali Jones wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=23m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s



I don't know about others here, but I am seeing almost an arrogance in the way this Sixers team played offensively. They were very methodical & deliberate, not fast breaking as much as the other teams of the era. But they were also quick and very powerful on both backboards. Even Luke Jackson at 6'10, 260 lbs was agile enough to play a two man game with Wilt like this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=2m39s

Above we can see 3 specific plays I am talking about. In the first play, Cunningham fakes Gus Johnson out and instead hits Wilt, then cuts right to the basket with Johnson out of the play. In the 2nd clip, Walker hits Wilt in the low post, who feeds Greer cutting along the baseline for a layup. In the 3rd clip, the Celtics have K.C Jones shading Wilt off the ball, so they make an extra pass to have a proper angle for the entry pass, where the ball goes into him. All the while Russell is heavily leaning on Wilt to try and force him out of position, to no avail. Then he fake passes the ball twice including a fake handoff to Walker, subtly getting Russell off balance, and hits a quick turnaround bank shot. This is a play meant to force the switch, and Bob Ferry does not switch in the 2nd clip. Whoever is guarding Wilt will have to switch or try and cut off and trap that cutter along the baseline.

In the first example below, Imhoff steps up leaving Elgin alone with Wilt under the basket. In the 2nd clip, Russell stays back, and still cannot prevent the dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY&t=1m43s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=8m56s






Below is a clip of this attempted trap of Hal Greer by Havlicek and Embry, and Wilt makes himself available to Greer for the pass and dunk, unlike Dwight in the Miami game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TBz2phCgY). You may have to watch in slow motion to really see the whole play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=27m53s


A couple more examples of failed baseline traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=17m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=22m13s



Below Gus Johnson leaves Luke Jackson wide open under rim to try and steal the ball from Wilt's blind side, like Jordan did to Malone in the Finals. But that doesn't work here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCnrD94U-20&t=1m29s






Look at how high his release point is on this hook shot. It doesn't look like much until you notice where the rim is. He is almost shooting it down into the basket. In the screenshot the ball is just a split second from leaving his hand. If he was getting the ball up high enough to dunk on his hook shots, it's no wonder he had a near unblockable shot. You had to rely more on timing than the challenging his vertical game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wsEE9oivvM&t=14m38s




http://i.imgur.com/msssnZn.png

http://i.imgur.com/jyep7B8.png

TLDR, so it doesn't matter. To hell with what footage shows. "Short white guys" is all that matters... :rolleyes:

[CavaliersFTW]

He did it to 6'10 Darrall Imhoff. This was one of his signature moves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY#t=2m54s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNw0c19DhIU#t=34m46s





Dwight (this past year) can barely even bring the ball down to gather himself without getting stripped. He is not as strong as you would think looking at his chiseled shoulders. I don't know how big his hands are but he cannot keep bringing the ball down low like Wilt, Shaq, or Barkley did to gather themselves, since his grip and overall strength is weak compared to them. You would never see any of them get stripped under the basket like that.

Dwight's problem is not his so called lack of moves. We have seen him make a few nice moves before, but the problem is he doesn't know how read the defense and incorporate the moves into game situations. He really has regressed since 2011, and his offensive awareness really seems to be below par. When the Lakers were eliminated we saw Barkley and Shaq criticizing him on the post game show, and they understand. Both of them developed into tremendous passers out of the post over the years. Their entire game offensively was based on drawing help defense to open the game up for others. I get the idea that Dwight is going to Hakeem's sessions to improve his repertoire, but the fact is he will never be anywhere near that agile and deceptive. Hakeem should be sitting in the film room teaching him how to read the defense, if he is not already. If Wilt were still alive today, that is who I would tell Dwight to go work with. He is another one who developed into a tremendous passer as well from his early years with the Philadelphia Warriors.



The video below shows excellent ball movement in a game of "keep away" with Walker, Greer, & Wilt in a triangle setup where the Bullets defense dictates the Sixers quick passes, and big Luke Jackson comes from the weak side to clean up Greer's miss and clinch the Eastern Division Championship. Look closely at the Bullets defensive movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=49s


Below shows two fake passes to cutters followed by a power move to the basket, drawing four defenders and finding Billy C unguarded in front of the rim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=3m28s




Wilt's best season was 1967, and the Sixers offense that year would set up with splits and cutters moving off him, not unlike how Portland played off Bill Walton 10 years later, though Walton played in the high post more than Wilt. He could play high as well as low, but in the footage I have seen preferred the mid-post area a step or two off the block, to open up some room for the baseline cutters while also remaining a scoring threat. In this style of play, he is holding the ball high and constantly looking for cutters, who seldom stopped moving. In this action it is defense who is at Wilt's mercy if they don't hard double him, seeing as any of the other 4 players is a potential threat to score. The modern teams (2001-present) are not accustomed to defending anywhere near this kind of constant player movement, they are more used to defending zones or specific areas on the floor, which will also leave them prone to giving up offensive rebounds.

Remember there was no incentive to shoot from distance back then (3 point line), so there was a lot of cutting and player movement. On the baseline handoffs for instance, not only is Wilt acting as a playmaker, but he is also acting as a screen. In the splits, he is acting as a pick for both players as well. Here is an example in the All Star Game, where there is a defensive error and Wilt hands it off to Big O for the basket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phho8i6rj0Y&t=45s


The defensive objective for most teams would be to try and emulate what the Celtics and Russell did, which was full court press the guards and try to make them eat up a good chunk of the shot clock. Once in the front court, they will shade Wilt with another man to try and prevent the entry pass. Basically they have to try and limit his touches, which will probably open up some opportunities for others like Greer or Walker. But no fronting, that would almost be equal to surrendering two points.

Two examples of Russell fronting Wilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w&t=4m4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=4m42s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=17m21s (Celtics shading excessively on Wilt's preferred (left) side of the floor, leaves Wali Jones wide open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=23m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=11m44s



I don't know about others here, but I am seeing almost an arrogance in the way this Sixers team played offensively. They were very methodical & deliberate, not fast breaking as much as the other teams of the era. But they were also quick and very powerful on both backboards. Even Luke Jackson at 6'10, 260 lbs was agile enough to play a two man game with Wilt like this.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngg3owcJl1g&t=2m39s

Above we can see 3 specific plays I am talking about. In the first play, Cunningham fakes Gus Johnson out and instead hits Wilt, then cuts right to the basket with Johnson out of the play. In the 2nd clip, Walker hits Wilt in the low post, who feeds Greer cutting along the baseline for a layup. In the 3rd clip, the Celtics have K.C Jones shading Wilt off the ball, so they make an extra pass to have a proper angle for the entry pass, where the ball goes into him. All the while Russell is heavily leaning on Wilt to try and force him out of position, to no avail. Then he fake passes the ball twice including a fake handoff to Walker, subtly getting Russell off balance, and hits a quick turnaround bank shot. This is a play meant to force the switch, and Bob Ferry does not switch in the 2nd clip. Whoever is guarding Wilt will have to switch or try and cut off and trap that cutter along the baseline.

In the first example below, Imhoff steps up leaving Elgin alone with Wilt under the basket. In the 2nd clip, Russell stays back, and still cannot prevent the dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjwkiXiwzCY&t=1m43s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjBDUhbBcs&t=8m56s






Below is a clip of this attempted trap of Hal Greer by Havlicek and Embry, and Wilt makes himself available to Greer for the pass and dunk, unlike Dwight in the Miami game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2TBz2phCgY). You may have to watch in slow motion to really see the whole play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Np29MW_XN8&t=27m53s


A couple more examples of failed baseline traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=17m29s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCmKvHJNoQ&t=22m13s



Below Gus Johnson leaves Luke Jackson wide open under rim to try and steal the ball from Wilt's blind side, like Jordan did to Malone in the Finals. But that doesn't work here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCnrD94U-20&t=1m29s






Look at how high his release point is on this hook shot. It doesn't look like much until you notice where the rim is. He is almost shooting it down into the basket. In the screenshot the ball is just a split second from leaving his hand. If he was getting the ball up high enough to dunk on his hook shots, it's no wonder he had a near unblockable shot. You had to rely more on timing than the challenging his vertical game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wsEE9oivvM&t=14m38s




http://i.imgur.com/msssnZn.png

http://i.imgur.com/jyep7B8.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hLfnzV9Oe1Q/UcqHb9DhuMI/AAAAAAAAEbg/1sbA-CDLqsI/s400/Stooges%2520gif.gif

[TheTenth]

Now adjust Wilt's 22.5 points per game in the playoffs average to modern era basketball. I like how Wilt supporters always forget the playoffs.

Wilt's PER 36 min scoring average in the playoffs is 17.2 points per game....
Nice, you have little knowledge of how playoff statistics work! Playoff stats are based on luck of the draw competition of who you play against/how many times. Wilt unfortunately had the worst lot in comparing RS to Playoff statistics for a few reasons.

A. Switched styles
- Played more playoff games when asked to score less
- changed style in playoffs (1962, 1969)
B. Played approximately 11.25% of his games after a career threatening injury (1970)
C. More % of his games were against HoF centers than any other center in history.
D. In each of his "scoring" seasons, except 2 (missed playoffs in 63, 61 played Nats) he went up against Bill Russell, greatest defensive center of all time.

I like how you take the playoffs which are incomparable numbers between two players and like to use them to suit your agenda.

The reality is, Player A cannot be compared to Player B in playoff averages in any situation. Playoffs restrict or inflate numbers based on who the best playoff contenders are. For instance, some positions have easier times scoring in playoffs due to the competition in those spots in playoff teams while other positions may have a harder time for the same reasons.

[millwad]

Nice, you have little knowledge of how playoff statistics work! Playoff stats are based on luck of the draw competition of who you play against/how many times. Wilt unfortunately had the worst lot in comparing RS to Playoff statistics for a few reasons..


Excuses.



A. Switched styles
- Played more playoff games when asked to score less
- changed style in playoffs (1962, 1969)



He was asked to score less for a reason, maybe you never realized why.




B. Played approximately 11.25% of his games after a career threatening injury (1970)
.


So tired of hearing about his "career threatening injury". You guys are blowing it out of proportion, the least amount of minutes he played in average after that injury was 42 minutes per game in the regular season and 46 minutes per game as an average in the playoffs.

Someone badly injured or someone who's busted up can't average that kind of minutes.



C. More % of his games were against HoF centers than any other center in history.


Really? He played in an era where double teams and defensive schemes barely existed. Why don't you mention the fact that he played against worse defense cpompared to the modern era centers?



D. In each of his "scoring" seasons, except 2 (missed playoffs in 63, 61 played Nats) he went up against Bill Russell, greatest defensive center of all time.
.

Who was undersized and who most of the times had to face Wilt one on one without modern era defensive schemes and without double and triple teams.



I like how you take the playoffs which are incomparable numbers between two players and like to use them to suit your agenda.
.

I like how you only think it's fun when people cherry pick Wilt's great numbers and not when someone actually compares something as important as playoff scoring average, the total of his career..



The reality is, Player A cannot be compared to Player B in playoff averages in any situation. Playoffs restrict or inflate numbers based on who the best playoff contenders are. For instance, some positions have easier times scoring in playoffs due to the competition in those spots in playoff teams while other positions may have a harder time for the same reasons.


Please, Wilt has the least excuses of any center in NBA history to not have a much more impressive scoring average.

1. He played in a much higher paced era.
2. He played against way worse defensive schemes and barely faced any double and triple teams.

I haven't seen you upset regarding Wilt fans cherry picking his statistical highs but you get butthurt over someone mentioning his playoff scoring average. :facepalm

[juju151111]

Excuses.





He was asked to score less for a reason, maybe you never realized why.





So tired of hearing about his "career threatening injury". You guys are blowing it out of proportion, the least amount of minutes he played in average after that injury was 42 minutes per game in the regular season and 46 minutes per game as an average in the playoffs.

Someone badly injured or someone who's busted up can't average that kind of minutes.



Really? He played in an era where double teams and defensive schemes barely existed. Why don't you mention the fact that he played against worse defense cpompared to the modern era centers?



Who was undersized and who most of the times had to face Wilt one on one without modern era defensive schemes and without double and triple teams.



I like how you only think it's fun when people cherry pick Wilt's great numbers and not when someone actually compares something as important as playoff scoring average, the total of his career..




Please, Wilt has the least excuses of any center in NBA history to not have a much more impressive scoring average.

1. He played in a much higher paced era.
2. He played against way worse defensive schemes and barely faced any double and triple teams.

I haven't seen you upset regarding Wilt fans cherry picking his statistical highs but you get butthurt over someone mentioning his playoff scoring average. :facepalm
I agree Wilt is a overrated playoff performer in terms of offense. His defense was crazy through

[PHILA]

I agree Wilt is a overrated playoff performer in terms of offense. His defense was crazy through
From his prime 1960-68 in 80 playoff games he was dominant, though not as good as his regular season.


Included are all playoff runs where the player has averaged at least 20 ppg. We will look at the "True Shooting" stat shooting efficiency relative to league average. He basically looks identical to Shaq, who are both highly efficient despite their poor foul shooting. Jordan is clearly the top scorer, and Oscar (despite popular belief here) is unbelievably dominant in both his scoring and efficiency.


Wilt (1960-68): 29.3 PPG, 47.7 MPG, +4.2 TS% (*Excluding 1963)



A few examples from another forum below:


Playoffs when they averaged at least 20 PPG


Kobe 27.7 PPG, 41.5 MPG, +1.2 TS%
Jordan 33.5 PPG, 41.7 PPG, +3.1 TS%
Shaq 27.2 PPG, 40.4 MPG, +4.3 TS%
Hakeem 27.3 PPG, 40.7 MPG, +3.8 TS%
Barkley 25.5 PPG, 41.7 MPG, +5.5 TS%
LeBron 28.1 PPG, 43.1 MPG, +2.9 TS%
Oscar 28.6 PPG, 46.3 MPG, +8.0 TS%

[Clifton]

So, he's basically Javale McGee if he had Tim Duncan's BBall IQ.

3rd greatest of all time. Still can't put him over Kareem. With Kareem you have character and consistency - plus >30/15 - from your best player which I don't think Wilt really showed.

[TheTenth]

Excuses.
No. Its simple math.


He was asked to score less for a reason, maybe you never realized why.
I realize why, do you?


So tired of hearing about his "career threatening injury". You guys are blowing it out of proportion, the least amount of minutes he played in average after that injury was 42 minutes per game in the regular season and 46 minutes per game as an average in the playoffs.

Someone badly injured or someone who's busted up can't average that kind of minutes.
Regardless if it's blown out of proportion or not, it's still a factor. You have a double standard for Wilt, why?


Really? He played in an era where double teams and defensive schemes barely existed. Why don't you mention the fact that he played against worse defense cpompared to the modern era centers?
Because he didn't. "Cpompared" to other centers he faced much tougher defensive competition. Mathematically the Celtics had some of the best defenses in history, so I believe that is a relevant factor.


Who was undersized and who most of the times had to face Wilt one on one without modern era defensive schemes and without double and triple teams.
Except he had numerous double/triple teams and nearly all centers would be undersized against Wilt. Hakeem, Ewing, Howard were all undersized against Shaq. Michael Jordan had a larger wingspan than probably most of the defenders who guarded him. Size is irrelevant here.



I like how you only think it's fun when people cherry pick Wilt's great numbers and not when someone actually compares something as important as playoff scoring average, the total of his career..
You seem to think I apply some emotion to this...? Regardless, cherry-picking numbers requires proper context. If I pick his field goal percentage in his 73 season, which was positive or as many might say "great," one must have the proper context as to why it was so high. I don't exactly view it as his most efficient year so to speak. Should I believe that Wilt suddenly became a worse scorer and the best rebounder of all time when the playoffs began? No. That would be cherry-picking. I still hold the belief that playoff numbers are just a factor of competition.


Please, Wilt has the least excuses of any center in NBA history to not have a much more impressive scoring average.

1. He played in a much higher paced era.
2. He played against way worse defensive schemes and barely faced any double and triple teams.

I haven't seen you upset regarding Wilt fans cherry picking his statistical highs but you get butthurt over someone mentioning his playoff scoring average. :facepalm
1. Is irrelevant to the point being made.
2. Is not true. I'm sure jlauber has pointed out the footage to you numerous times, yet you continue to write it off because a) you don't respect his opinion or b) you refuse to acknowledge the facts or c) haven't even watched any footage. Game footage in the posts above shows this. This isn't even mentioning the personal testimonies which report this fact, which I always hold as weightless in evaluations.

Look, I like debating subjects with people, but what you are stating is pure nonsense. Playoff numbers are irrelevant in player comparisons as is taking pointless numbers like Wilt's 100 point game against a backup center. What if Michael Jordan faced Gary Payton for nearly 1/3 of his playoff games, or Larry Bird faced Michael Cooper for 1/3 of his games? Of course their playoff numbers would go down! In fact Larry Bird's did!

I could care less about Wilt not getting his credit, I mainly care about the misuse of statistics. Statistics may be the only thing I am impartial to. My question is, why do you have so much disdain for a player that played so long ago? I really could care less about the name/player we discuss, I wouldn't care if some new player came and destroyed the league to a far greater degree than Wilt could. I admit frequently that my personal opinion should hold no weight but I know it may slip through in anyone's evaluation of players. This being said, since I know the effects of it, I try my hardest not to allow it to influence my opinion. Maybe you should try that too.

I guess I am being trolled? :confusedshrug:


and Oscar (despite popular belief here) is unbelievably dominant in both his scoring and efficiency.
These statistics are skewed to help Oscar/Wilt because you are using the nominal numbers (are you using nominal?). Inflated MPG/PPG allows a couple extra seasons of Oscar's/Wilt's to be on there.

[Euroleague]

I used to be enthralled by modern basketball also. As a boy watching the great 1982-83 Sixers, I heard Sonny Hill talk about how great Wilt was comparing him to Moses Malone. I thought then, c'mon this is 1983, and that was 1967. Basketball must have grown a lot in 15 years, which is a lifetime when you're just a boy.

Today though, 15 years is like nothing. Heck, 15 years or so ago, MJ was dominating the NBA. No one today will even argue that Jordan would not be
the dominant player in the game today, if he were still playing, right?

I just think Wilt has to be considered the single most dominating big man, ever. If your fair, it's really not close. Even Russel might agree that as a single individual playing for himself, Wilt produced more dominating moments than
any other single player ever.

So let me get this straight............

according to YOU, American players from earlier times could be just as good as American players of now, BUT

Players in Europe are all a joke and are a bunch of damn scrubs that are inferior to American players.


RIGHT MAKES SENSE

You, CavsFTW, and gabepizza are the three biggest hypocrites in this whole forum.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I really don't understand the level of hate some people have for wilt I mean they never even saw the guy play. What evil would be unleashed on the world if you accepted wilt was actually great at basketball? Would your perception of reality shatter if you accepted that he did not actually only play against 6 foot white guys?

[PHILA]

Inflated MPG/PPG allows a couple extra seasons of Oscar's/Wilt's to be on there.
Yes, also the league average efficency was lower than now for various reasons. But the usage rate is also lower for Wilt/Oscar than today's stars due to the pace.


If we take 1962 Wilt, his USG% was estimated by Dean Oliver at 33%, which would place it #45 on the all time list. While it's safe to say that raw stats are inflated due to the pace, they were not using up their team's possessions or monopolizing the ball nearly as much as the modern day offensive stars.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_season.html

[TheTenth]

Yes, also the league average efficency was lower than now for various reasons. But the usage rate is also lower for Wilt/Oscar than today's stars due to the pace.


If we take 1962 Wilt, his USG% was estimated by Dean Oliver at 33%, which would place it #45 on the all time list. While it's safe to say that raw stats are inflated due to the pace, they were not using up their team's possessions or monopolizing the ball nearly as much as more modern day offensive stars.



http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/usg_pct_season.html
Oh wow, that is cause of something I found in my research but wasn't sure what was the causal variable. How much of a difference does this take into account for though? Wilt's usage % is the highest for any center of all time and I doubt Oscar's usage % is much lower than what the average might be for some elite PG's.

Oscar's name doesn't come up very high in adjusted PPG/36 though. In fact, I would suspect more of his value came from his passing/efficiency in shot selection rather than from sheer quantity of points.

Also, you may have forgotten a player who might fit well in those comparisons, Bill Sharman. Do you have the calculations for him on hand? If not, I could do them. Sharman even led the playoffs in FG% in 1961 in some weird stroke of fate.

[PHILA]

Bill Sharman. Do you have the calculations for him on hand?

No, but his career playoff TS% was .502, and the bulk of his career was in the 1950's. I would think the league average efficiency was even lower then, especially before the shot clock.

[TheTenth]

No, but his career playoff TS% was .502, and the bulk of his career was in the 1950's. I would think the league average efficiency was even lower then, especially before the shot clock.
It was. Converting his 1961 playoff FG% to league average in says the 90s would render a number around .58 - .59! Although that year was an anomaly...

Dolph Schayes may be another candidate if one were to count pre-shot clock numbers, but his shooting ability was rendered more ineffective by time once the jump shot became prevalent.

[LAZERUSS]

I always get a kick out of those that claim that Wilt's playoff scoring was 22.5 ppg.

Of course, as has been mentioned, in the first half of his career, when he was a "scoring" Chamberlain, up thru his '66 season, his post-season numbers were:

32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, and a .505 FG% (which, of course, is deceptive, considering that the league eFG%'s averaged about .428 in his first seven seasons.) Now, that was over the course of 52 games.

And, because he had the worst supporting roster in league history in '63, his team didn't make the playoffs...in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg and shot .528 from the floor.

So, a "scoring" Chamberlain was AVERAGING 33 ppg in his first 52 playoff games. Furthermore, in those 52 playoff games, he faced Russell and the SWARMING Celtics in 30 of them.

And up thru Wilt's '67 season, and in 67 post-season games, his numbers were 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and a .515 FG% in leagues that shot .430 on average.

Think about that... a 30-27-5 .515 AVERAGE (and certainly around 8+ bpg), covering 67 games. Give me a list of players who put a 30-27-5-8 .515 GAME in their playoff careers...much less over the course of 67 of them.

In Chamberlain's playoff career, he had entire post-seasons of 28.0 ppg, 29.3 ppg, 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. FOUR entire post-seasons of 30+ ppg. Included were playoff series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg...or FOUR entire series of 37.0 ppg, or higher.

How about his numbers against Russell in those first seven playoff seasons? He had playoff series of 30-26, 34-26, 29-28, 30-31 (on a staggering .555 FG%), 28-30, and 22-32 (outshooting Russell .556 to .358.)

And, aside from MJ, NO other NBA player has ever had FOUR 50+ point playoff games (three of which came in "must-win" games, including a 50-35 game against Russell.) He had playoff games of 42 points and 29 rebounds (against Russell), 53-22, 50-35 (against Russell), 46-32, 40-25, 56-35, 42-37(against Russell), 41-34 (against Russell), 46-23, 50-15, 46-34 (against Russell), and a 45-27 game on one-leg in the '70 Finals. And then there were the TON of 30-20+ (and 30-30) playoff games, as well...many against Russell.

And PHILA has already addressed the idiots that claim that Chamberlain "only" shot .522 in his playoff career. He was consistently shooting nearly 100 points (or more) above the league average. For instance, in his 11 playoff games in his '64 post-season, he averaged 34.7 ppg on .543 shooting, in a post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting.

Wilt's .522 FG% came in leagues that averaged about a .435 eFG%. Compare that with say, Hakeem's career .528, which came in leagues that averaged about a .470 eFG% (and as high as .497.)

And no one ever brings up the fact that Chamberlain was just destroying his OPPOSING centers in the process.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

Once again, when the Wilt pundits bring up his "decline" in playoff scoring, they never mention just how overwhelming Chamberlain was against his OPPOSING centers.

How about these numbers:


Here are Chamberlain's AND his opposing center's scoring games in Wilt's PRIME from 59-60 thru 67-68...all 80 of them. BTW, Wilt played in 160 playoff games, and these were exactly half of them.

Incidently, Wilt' "scoring" prime was from 59-60 thru 65-66.

* denotes games against Russell
** denotes games against Thurmond
*** denotes games against Bellamy

Some other sidenotes:

1. Wilt outshot Russell from the field in the '62 ECF's, .468 to ..399

2. Chamberlain shot .559 in the '64 WCF's (while scoring 38.6 ppg)

3. Chamberlain shot .517 against Russell in the '64 Finals, and outscored him per game, 29.2 to 11.2 ppg (and outshot Russell by a .517 to .386 margin.)

4. In the '65 EDF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 30 ppg to 16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31 rpg to 25 rpg; and outshot Russell in that series, .555 to .447)

5. Wilt shot .509 against Russell in the '66 ECF's (while averaging 28 ppg and 30.2 rpg)

6. Wilt outshot Russell in the '67 ECF's by a .556 to .358 margin.

7. Wilt outshot Thurmond in the '67 Finals by a .560 to .343 margin.

8. Wilt held Bellamy to .421 shooting in the '68 playoffs (Bellamy shot .541 against the league that season.)


Quote:
Prime "Scoring" Wilt

The first figure is Wilt's, and the second is his opposing starting centers's...(e.g. 35-5, Wilt outscored his opposng center, 35-5.)

1. 35-5
2. 28-25
3. 53-7
4. 42-19 *
5. 29-15 *
6. 12-26 *
7. 24-17 *
8. 50-22 *
9. 26-25 *
10. 46-15
11. 32-12
12. 33-7
13. 32-9
14. 28-18
15. 40-14
16. 29-27
17. 56-20
18. 33-16 *
19. 42-9 *
20. 35-31 *
21. 41-31 *
22. 30-29 *
23. 32-19 *
24. 22-19 *
25. 37-24
26. 28-4
27. 46-22
28. 36-14
29. 50-6
30. 34-20
31. 39-10
32. 22-9 *
33. 32-9 *
34. 35-16 *
35. 27-8 *
36. 30-14 *
37. 26-18
38. 30-10
39. 17-16
40. 38-7
41. 33-11 *
42. 30-12 *
43. 24-19 *
44. 34-18 *
45. 30-12 *
46. 30-22 *
47. 30-15 *
48. 25-13 *
49. 23-10 *
50. 31-11 *
51. 15-18 *
52. 46-18 *


Wilt from 66-67 thru 67-68


53. 41-29
54. 37-21
55. 16-12
56. 18-8
57. 24-20 *
58. 15-14 *
59. 20-10 *
60. 20-9 *
61. 29-4 *
62. 16-24 **
63. 10-7 **
64. 26-17 **
65. 10-8 **
66. 20-17 **
67. 24-12 **
68. 37-14 ***
69. 24-26 ***
70. 18-22 ***
71. 23-28 ***
72. 26-11 ***
73. 25-19 ***
74. 33-11 *
75. 15-11 *
76. 23-13 *
77. 22-24 *
78. 28-8 *
79. 20-17 *
80. 14-12 *

* denotes games against Russell
** denotes games against Thurmond
*** denotes games against Bellamy




Wilt outscored his opposing centers in 49 of his first 50 playoff games (and 50 of 52 in his "scoring" prime overall) MANY by HUGE margins.

Overall, in Wilt's first 80 playoff games, covering his PRIME years, he outscored his opposing starting center in 73 of them.

The Wilt who "declined" in the post-season...

[LAZERUSS]

Of course the "Wilt-bashers", like Bill Simmons, would suggest that Wilt "choked" in his post-season play.

Let's take a closer look, shall we?


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined 23-60 (.383 shooting). while Wilt himself, shot 18-33, or .545 in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continued...

For those that haven't seen them yet, here are ALL of Wilt's 35 "must-win" and "series clinching" post-season games....ALL of them.


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[LAZERUSS]

What kind of defenses did Wilt face in his career?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236760&page=8


http://biography.jrank.org/pages/233...lain-Wilt.html


Quote:
Several of the rules of college basketball had to be changed as a result of Chamberlain's talents, which simply dwarfed those of previous players. Opposing players double-and triple-teamed him and played a slowed-down game rather than attempt to confront Chamberlain's offensive skills head-on. These techniques helped the University of North Carolina defeat Kansas 54-53 in triple overtime in the 1957 championship game.

Such tactics also frustrated the rapidly developing Chamberlain, who startled the basketball world by turning professional rather than returning to Kansas for his senior year. NBA rules forbade him from joining the league until the year in which he would have graduated from college, so Chamberlain played for the razzle-dazzle touring professional team the Harlem Globetrotters during the 1958-59 season. He joined the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959, having already collected a large bonus for signing.

Individual Triumphs in NBA
Chamberlain was an NBA star from the beginning, leading the league in scoring and rebounding, and taking home honors not only for Rookie of the Year but also for Most Valuable Player. Frustrated by defensive tactics similar to those he had faced in college, and by what he considered biased officiating, he threatened to leave the league and return to the Globetrotters in 1960. But he did not follow through on his threat, and soon learned to outmaneuver his tormentors through sheer size, speed, and skill.






http://www.nba.com/home/history/lege...ain/index.html


Quote:
In Chamberlain's first year, and for several years afterward, opposing teams simply didn't know how to handle him. Tom Heinsohn, the great Celtics forward who later became a coach and broadcaster, said Boston was one of the first clubs to apply a team-defense concept to stop Chamberlain. "We went for his weakness," Heinsohn told the Philadelphia Daily News in 1991, "tried to send him to the foul line, and in doing that he took the most brutal pounding of any player ever. I hear people today talk about hard fouls. Half the fouls against him were hard fouls."





http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html


Quote:
He stood there, just to the right of the basket, a placid. 7-ft. 1 1/16-in, giant watching impassively as his teammates maneuvered the ball in backcourt. The New York Knickerbockers tried to box him in; they clutched at his jersey, leaned against his chest, stepped on his toes. Then Wilt Chamberlain came alive. With the aplomb of a cop palming an apple, he reached out one massive hand and plucked the basketball out of the air. Spinning violently, he ripped clear of the elbowing surge, took a step toward the basket and jumped. For an instant, he seemed suspended in midair, his head on a level with the 10-ft.-high basket. Slowly, gently, the ball dribbled off his fingertips, through the net, and the San Francisco Warriors went on to a 142-134 victory. New York Coach Ed Donovan sadly shook his head. "He's phenomenal." he sighed. "How does anyone stop Wilt Chamberlain?"




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...940232,00.html


Quote:
Most basketball stars have one great talent: Russell's is defense, Elgin Baylor's is shooting, Bob Cousy's is setting up plays and passing. Chamberlain does almost everything, better than anyone else. He is the pros' fiercest rebounder, and his shooting repertory includes such inimitable specialties as the "Dipper Dunk" (in which he simply stretches up and lays the ball in the basket), the "Stuff Shot" (in which he jumps up and rams the ball through the net from above), and the "Fadeaway Jump"—a delicate, marvelously coordinated push shot from 15 ft. away that defensive men literally cannot block without fouling.





http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


Quote:
[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."

"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70




http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


Quote:
"I would talk to Wilt about all the players pounding on him. Sometimes, he said he didn't notice it--he was so strong. But I also believe that there were two sets of rules. By that, I mean because Wilt was so strong, the officials let the man guarding him get away with more--almost trying to equalize the game. I also believe that Wilt just took it because he didn't want to get thrown out, and because ithad always been like that with him. But I'd watch it and I'd get mad. It takes me a while to get my temper going, but when it does--look out. I'd see what the other players were doing to Wilt and what the officials were allowing, and I'd get more upset than if it were happening to me. So I jumped in there. It wasn't that Wilt couldn't defend himself. If he ever got really hot, he'd kill people, so he let things pass. But I didn't have to worry about that. I was strong for my size, but I was not about to do anything like the kind of damage would."
--Al Attles, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 242




http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


Quote:
"People lose sight of the fact that Wilt was a 440 champion, a guy with great coordination. He also was so strong that the double-teaming defenses used today wouldn't bother him."
--Wayne Embry (GM for the Cleveland Cavaliers), Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 327





Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

[QUOTE]http://samcelt.forumotion.net/t2803-...mmy-4000-words


Quote:
At 7

[crisoner]

Wow great thread learned a lot about Wilt the stilt here. Before my time but much respect. I think Wilt would of breasted in any era. Imagine home with today's medicine and modern day work out etc. he would of breasted.

[LAZERUSS]

Defense in the Wilt era?

An PRIME to PEAK Kareem faced an OLD Wilt in 28 career h2h's. Overall, he shot .464 against Chamberlain. In those 28 career h2h's, he had a TOTAL of 10 games in which he shot .500 or better, and only one game of .600 or better. And, he shot less than .400 in six of those.

BTW, we have their h2h block numbers in seven of those 28 games, and Chamberlain blocked 30 of KAJ's shots in those seven games. And in another, the recap credited Wilt with "numerous" blocks. So, in 1/4th of their h2h's, Wilt was recording 4.3 bpg, just against Kareem. Even if we assume that he only blocked two per game over the course of their 21 other h2h's, that would mean that Wilt blocked some 72 of KAJ's shots in 28 career h2h's...many of which were the "unblockable" sky-hook. (And BTW, I believe Wilt is the only player to have blocked Kareem's sky-hook while it was in the air.)

Furthermore, in Wilt's last season, he faced a peak KAJ in six h2h games, and outshot Kareem, .737 to .450 (which included one game in which he outscored KAJ, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.) In fact, over the course of their last ten straight games (which included the last four games of the '72 WCF's), Chamberlain held a peak KAJ to .434 shooting.

And a PRIME to PEAK KAJ faced an older Thurmond in some 40 career h2h's. Overall, he shot a well-educated .440 against him. Kareem had a TOTAL of seven 30+ point games against Nate, with a high game of 34. In fact, he had as many games of under 20 against Thurmond, seven, as he did of over 30. He seldom approached even 50% against Thurmond, and in his three playoff series, covering 16 games, he shot .439 against Nate (.486, .428, and .405.)

Now, against Wilt, that was a 23 to 26 year old Kareem, and against Nate it was basically a 23-27 year old KAJ.

Then think about this...

A 37-41 old KAJ faced a 23-26 year old Hakeem in 23 career h2h's.

Here were their totals:

Hakeem, playing 38 mpg, averaged 22.3 ppg on .507 shooting.
Kareem, playing 32 mpg, averaged 22.5 ppg on .607 shooting.

Of course, a 38-39 year old Kareem, and in their first ten straight games, just pummelled a 22-23 year old Hakeem, averaging 32 ppg on .630 shooting, which included three games of 40+ (with a high of 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

Overall in those 23 h2h's with Hakeem, KAJ shot 50% or better, in 20 of them. In fact, he shot 60% or better in 12 of them, or in over half. And, he shot .700+ in FIVE of them.

My god, a 41 year old KAJ, in his very last h2h with a 26 year old Hakeem battled him pretty well. Hakeem outscored KAJ, 30-21, but Kareem (Kareem outshot him from the floor, as always, .533 to .500), who couldn't rebound a lick from the mid-80's on, actually outrebounded a Hakeem, who would go on to lead the league in rebounding, 13-11 in that game. All while playing four minutes less.


And how about a 37-41 old KAJ against a 23-36 year old Ewing?

The two battled in eight career h2h's...

Ewing, in 35 mpg, averaged 18.8 ppg on .446 shooting.
KAJ, in 32 mpg, averaged 20.6 ppg on .581 shooting.

Of course, a 38 year old KAJ just crushed Patrick with a game in which he outscored Ewing, 40-9, and outshot him 15-22 to 3-17. Incidently that game was only within days of his 46 point shelling of Hakeem.

So, for those that claim that defense wasn't being played in the Wilt era, how do they explain those numbers?

[millwad]

I always get a kick out of those that claim that Wilt's playoff scoring was 22.5 ppg.


All those bogus excuses for absolutely nothing.

Wilt's playoff scoring average was 22.5 points and that's a fact, in an era with where they played at a much higher pace.

Wilt's PER 36 minutes scoring average was only 17.2 ppg.

[PHILA]

Dolph Schayes may be another candidate if one were to count pre-shot clock numbers, but his shooting ability was rendered more ineffective by time once the jump shot became prevalent.
He was still effective post shot clock. He may have basically had a set shot, but so did modern player like Charles Barkley. What helped Schayes the most was him breaking his right arm early on, playing almost the entire year in a cast. This aided him to be ambidextrous and shoot effectively with both hands. Plus his shot was a high arcing shot which was difficult to block, and he was excellent at driving to the basket. Now Paul Arizin also was another underrated player who was the one to rely on his jump shot regularly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCACtXTEmQ&t=1m36s

[3LiftHeatCurse]

------ copy paste from another site -----------

I've absolutely had it with the blind Wilt homerism and willful ignorance of the media. They are all textbook examples of people who look at the stats without placing them in the proper context, and I expect more from "professionals." Old school players like Kareem and Oscar don't know any better, so their ignorance is excusable, but not people who try to debate who the greatest players are.

Alas, I will take my shots at Kareem. First of all, that man's letter was one giant contradiction. Is he weighing total points or averages more heavily? I ask because he brings up Wilt's season averages to debunk the notion MJ is the best scorer ever, in the same letter that he not so subtly emphasizes the fact that he's the all-time leader in points scored.

Let's keep perspective here, Kareem. Or did you just happen to overlook the fact Jordan has a higher career, playoff and finals scoring average than Wilt while also accumulating more Playoff points than you and claiming the record you once held, in considerably less games?

Enough said there.

Going back to Wilt, why don't people call out this man for being the ultimate stat padder? He refused to play defense with five fouls, because of his having never fouled out in a game his entire career. He aggressively gave up perfectly good quality shots to pass the ball excessively, just to prove he could pass. In his 100 point game, his teammates were intentionally fouling the other team so that Wilt could have more possessions.

Why do we praise this as an example of all-time greatness? For example, I keep hearing about Wilt's 50 PPG season average over and over and over, but I never hear people mention the fact he took 40 shots to get those 50 points. To put it in perspective, since that's so important to Kareem, when Jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and in my opinion, against much more competition than Wilt, with rules that favored his defender.

Do people really think a Jordan, Kobe or Shaq couldn't rack up close to 50 point averages in their prime, if they literally took 40 or more shots per game?. Wilt was the epitome of a statpadding ballhog, and the reason Jordan or Kobe never did that is because it's not winning basketball, and Wilt's lack of success in the post-season and against Bill Russell is a testament to that.

Why doesn't he have 50 PPG averages in the post-season? Why doesn't he lead in points in the post-season? Where did all his glorious stats go on the biggest stages? Oh, that's right. Wilt was all about me until the lights shined brightest and he pulled a Houdini on his team mates. Hell, Wilt wasn't even very efficient for a big man; he barely cracked 50% shooting in that 50 PPG season, whereas Shaq has had 58-60% averages for his entire career.

Wilt was such a selfish, choking statpadder, that there were teams who did not want him on their team in his prime. Can you imagine anyone not wanting a Prime Jordan or Prime Shaq if the option was available? Hell no.

To be perfectly honest, Wilt doesn't crack my top five list, and that's because he doesn't deserve it. He's easily one of the greatest athletes to have ever played his game, and it's wrong to hold his level of competition against him--to a degree--but why are we rewarding selfish statpadding so much? Wilt has accumulated the most meaningless, fraudulent statistics in NBA History, and it's a shame to the game of basketball that he is often mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan by old ignoramuses like Kareem who have no business trying to make informed analysis on other great players.

For the record, Kareem is the second best player of all time on my list. Doesn't make him any less wrong, however.

[Inactive]

------ copy paste from another site -----------

I've absolutely had it with the blind Wilt homerism and willful ignorance of the media. They are all textbook examples of people who look at the stats without placing them in the proper context, and I expect more from "professionals." Old school players like Kareem and Oscar don't know any better, so their ignorance is excusable, but not people who try to debate who the greatest players are. Right the people who actually played against him are the ignorant ones; not the 13 year olds on the internet, or media personalities who were toddlers in the 60s.



Going back to Wilt, why don't people call out this man for being the ultimate stat padder? He refused to play defense with five fouls, because of his having never fouled out in a game his entire career. That's generally something that get praised, at least if you're a superstar. Keeping a great player in the game is worth giving up a layup or two.


He aggressively gave up perfectly good quality shots to pass the ball excessively, just to prove he could pass.He was still taking 19 shots, averaged 27 ppg, won a ring, and his FG% skyrocketed during his passing years. So, he sacrificed some okay shots, improved his efficiency, and kept his teammates more involved. Again, something that's generally praised. How many times have you heard "Magic could score 30, but he'd rather create shots for his teammates."?



Why do we praise this as an example of all-time greatness? For example, I keep hearing about Wilt's 50 PPG season average over and over and over, but I never hear people mention the fact he took 40 shots to get those 50 points. To put it in perspective, since that's so important to Kareem, when Jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and in my opinion, against much more competition than Wilt, with rules that favored his defender.

Do people really think a Jordan, Kobe or Shaq couldn't rack up close to 50 point averages in their prime, if they literally took 40 or more shots per game?. I don't think Jordan, Kobe, or Shaq could get 40 decent shots per game, for a whole season.


Wilt was the epitome of a statpadding ballhog, and the reason Jordan or Kobe never did that is because it's not winning basketball, and Wilt's lack of success in the post-season and against Bill Russell is a testament to that. So, when he takes 20 fga he's passing up perfectly good shots and stat padding? When he takes 30+, he's an evil selfish statpadding ballhog? When he takes 10 and focuses on defense, he's a passive, no skills scrub, who's just big and athletic? Which is it?


Hell, Wilt wasn't even very efficient for a big man; he barely cracked 50% shooting in that 50 PPG season, whereas Shaq has had 58-60% averages for his entire career.Wilt has the top 2 single season FG% records. When he was taking 40 FGA, he was still shooting 51%, and 53% on 35 fga.


To be perfectly honest, Wilt doesn't crack my top five list, and that's because he doesn't deserve it. He's easily one of the greatest athletes to have ever played his game, and it's wrong to hold his level of competition against him--to a degree--but why are we rewarding selfish statpadding so much? Wilt has accumulated the most meaningless, fraudulent statistics in NBA History, and it's a shame to the game of basketball that he is often mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan by old ignoramuses like Kareem who have no business trying to make informed analysis on other great players.Who is better equipped to make an informed analysis? Kareem, who undoubtedly watched Wilt closely growing up, and then played against him. Or some guy who has never seen anything except 20 minutes of 35 year old Wilt in a Lakers jersey?

[LAZERUSS]

Right the people who actually played against him are the ignorant ones; not the 13 year olds on the internet, or media personalities who were toddlers in the 60s.

That's generally something that get praised, at least if you're a superstar. Keeping a great player in the game is worth giving up a layup or two.

He was still taking 19 shots, averaged 27 ppg, won a ring, and his FG% skyrocketed during his passing years. So, he sacrificed some okay shots, improved his efficiency, and kept his teammates more involved. Again, something that's generally praised. How many times have you heard "Magic could score 30, but he'd rather create shots for his teammates."?


I don't think Jordan, Kobe, or Shaq could get 40 decent shots per game, for a whole season.

So, when he takes 20 fga he's passing up perfectly good shots and stat padding? When he takes 30+, he's an evil selfish statpadding ballhog? When he takes 10 and focuses on defense, he's a passive, no skills scrub, who's just big and athletic? Which is it?

Wilt has the top 2 single season FG% records. When he was taking 40 FGA, he was still shooting 51%, and 53% on 35 fga.

Who is better equipped to make an informed analysis? Kareem, who undoubtedly watched Wilt closely growing up, and then played against him. Or some guy who has never seen anything except 20 minutes of 35 year old Wilt in a Lakers jersey?

Damn! That was impressive!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[mehyaM24]

are you aware that in 47 regular season h2h's, NATE THURMOND outscored wilt?...same thing in the 17 head to head playoff games...willis reed outscored him in the playoffs as well.....

Walt freaking Bellamy scored 34.7 ppg vs wilt.... he was a rookie too...:lol

quite frankly....i am not sure how or WHY he was named all-nba defensive 1st team in 73...dave cowens was 4-0 vs wilt that year and averaged 31.3 ppg..

[LAZERUSS]

are you aware that in 47 regular season h2h's, NATE THURMOND outscored wilt?...same thing in the 17 head to head playoff games...willis reed outscored him in the playoffs as well.....

Walt freaking Bellamy scored 34.7 ppg vs wilt.... he was a rookie too...:lol

quite frankly....i am not sure how or WHY he was named all-nba defensive 1st team in 73...dave cowens was 4-0 vs wilt that year and averaged 31.3 ppg..

Wilt averaged 52.7 ppg on Bellamy in '62, and then 43.7 ppg on him in '63.

What was Nate Thurmond's FG% in those regular season h2h's? He shot .398, .392, and .343 against Wilt in their 17 playoff h2h's. And in their '65-66 season h2h's, Chamberlain just CRUSHED Thurmond. He had games against him that season in which he outscored him by margins of 33-10, 33-17, 38-15, and 45-13. And in the '67 Finals, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg, while outshooting him by a .560 to .343 margin. Incidently KAJ had three playoff series against Thurmond in which he shot .486, .428, and .405.

Willis Reed was not defended by Wilt in the '68 playoffss, in a series in which Wilt averaged 25.5 on .584 shooting. And Wilt outscored Reed in the '70 Finals, 23.2 ppg to 23.0, while outshooting him .625 to .483.

Dave Cowens was the league MVP in '73 (Wilt's last season.) BTW, Chamberlain held KAJ that year to .450 shooting in their six regular season h2h's (outshooting .737 to .450), and then held Thurmond to .392 shooting in the WCF's, while outrebounding him, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg.

[mehyaM24]

why did wilt have losses in the 69,70 and 73 finals.....? in 70 and 73 the lakers lost to the knicks and willis reed....the lakers beat the knicks in 72,due to reed missing the entire damn series.....willis reed owned wilt.....as for wilts scoring vs Thurmond.....? wilt never averaged under 13 ppg in any season...yet over the course of 3 series and 17 playoff head to heads,wilt was at 12.5 ppg vs Thurmond...LOWER than his career low...:oldlol: (and that's over 3 series)

[mehyaM24]

Right the people who actually played against him are the ignorant ones; not the 13 year olds on the internet, or media personalities who were toddlers in the 60s.

That's generally something that get praised, at least if you're a superstar. Keeping a great player in the game is worth giving up a layup or two.

He was still taking 19 shots, averaged 27 ppg, won a ring, and his FG% skyrocketed during his passing years. So, he sacrificed some okay shots, improved his efficiency, and kept his teammates more involved. Again, something that's generally praised. How many times have you heard "Magic could score 30, but he'd rather create shots for his teammates."?


I don't think Jordan, Kobe, or Shaq could get 40 decent shots per game, for a whole season.

So, when he takes 20 fga he's passing up perfectly good shots and stat padding? When he takes 30+, he's an evil selfish statpadding ballhog? When he takes 10 and focuses on defense, he's a passive, no skills scrub, who's just big and athletic? Which is it?

Wilt has the top 2 single season FG% records. When he was taking 40 FGA, he was still shooting 51%, and 53% on 35 fga.

Who is better equipped to make an informed analysis? Kareem, who undoubtedly watched Wilt closely growing up, and then played against him. Or some guy who has never seen anything except 20 minutes of 35 year old Wilt in a Lakers jersey?

no,no,and no.....wilt played for stats.....that's a fact.....his minutes per game helped those stats per game.....if he played with any intensity or power he would have fouled out...but he played like a *****,as proven by the FOOTAGE...in fact,bill Russell averaged more rebounds and assists than wilt in the playoffs,in LESS mpg....his style of play was consistent...wilts style of play depended on which stats he chose to go for....

just look at his playoff average!!!....wilts playoff ppg for his career is 22.5 ppg....he couldn't handle the good players

[Inactive]

.....his minutes per game helped those stats per game...and hurt his stats per minute, which are still amazing.


.....if he played with any intensity or power he would have fouled out.......then isn't it a good thing he didn't....


but he played like a *****,as proven by the FOOTAGE...Amazing that one can score 50ppg, or get 30 rpg playing like a *****. He must've been even better than I thought!


in fact,bill Russell averaged more rebounds and assists than wilt in the playoffs,in LESS mpg....his style of play was consistent...wilts style of play depended on which stats he chose to go for....Prior to his Laker days Wilt averaged 29/27/5 in the playoffs. Russell at the same ages averaged 18/26/4. Wilt played 2 more mpg over that stretch.


just look at his playoff average!!!....wilts playoff ppg for his career is 22.5 ppg....he couldn't handle the good playersI don't know exactly why Wilt wasn't as good in the playoffs as he was in the regular season. I'll have to defer to someone like CavaliersFTW, PHILA, or LAZERUSS, who has more detailed knowledge of individual season storylines. Despite the drop off, he still put up amazing numbers in the playoffs, for most of his career.