Is PEAK Shaq (2000) the GOAT?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

42pts, 19reb vs Pacers - Game 1 Finals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw)
46pts vs Kings - WCSF (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs6kheH6M4k)
61ps vs Clippers, career high (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1m5XI_oq3o)
45pts vs Knicks @ MSG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qp_1OonQm8)
36pts, 21reb vs Pacers - Game 4 Finals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YO0p6PRb4k)
38/20/5 vs Suns - WCSF Game 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pePhaRFDQY)
41/11/7/5 vs Blazers - WCF Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3zxY3iu6n8)
41pts, 12reb vs Pacers - Game 6 Finals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzJKDT9hI78)


IMO, he was just as good as anyone that's ever played at ANY stage. I'm not talking statistically either.. just watch his games. Guy was an absolute behemoth down low. A coaches worst nightmare.

I've always felt Mike and Shaq were my 1a and 1b players as far as peaks go, but wondered what would happen if Shaq got more touches than MJ too..

:confusedshrug:

[Odinn]

I had a good thread about it before Deuce took a dump on it.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253355

(listed by chronologically)
1966-67 Wilt
1976-77 Kareem
1985-86 Bird
1990-91 Jordan
1993-94 Hakeem
1999-00 Shaq

These players are the top 6. You rank them in any order you want and you can't go wrong. I believe, my all-time favourite, Duncan was on par with the listed ones in 2002-03 season.

[fandarko]

I had a good thread about it before Deuce took a dump on it.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253355

(listed by chronologically)
1966-67 Wilt
1976-77 Kareem
1985-86 Bird
1990-91 Jordan
1993-94 Hakeem
1999-00 Shaq

These players are the top 6. You rank them in any order you want and you can't go wrong. I believe, my all-time favourite, Duncan was on par with the listed ones in 2002-03 season.
You've got it right in terms of peak dominance, but I believe you could throw in a couple of other players in there, only peak season wise. At least one Magic's title run should be considered (he was not as dominant scoring wise, granted), LBJ or even Dirk's title run (or the failed title run in 2006) were also dominant, though the latter can't touch TOP 5...

[magnax1]

Jordan's stretch around 88-93 was as good as Shaq in 00 and 01. I think that there is any argument to be made for Shaq being the only offensive player around the same level as Jordan (Wilt excluded). His stats are insane already but they dont really show how the whole defense really ended up centering on Shaq in a way I dont remember happening with other great players.

[ThaRegul8r]

I've seen people on another board say LeBron from this past season was better (I've seen threads specifically comparing them), which I find interesting. Because before this season, everyone talked about how dominant Shaq was and how it was possibly the GOAT peak. Then as soon as the newest GOAT candidate had what people were saying were his best season during the regular season, people were just waiting for him to win a championship to justify their ranking.

It was also interesting watching people yo-yoing on LeBron during the postseason, and once the Heat won Game 7, suddenly it was possibly the GOAT peak again, and people since then have been saying it was a better season than Shaq's.

Another example of how the newest is always the best.

[TonyMontana]

Shaq is the GOAT.

If he had Phil Jackson for the entirety of his prime you would have seen him play at that level for even longer. Phil ALWAYS knew how to get the most out of his stars and take their games to another level. The triangle utilized all of Shaqs strengths.

Shaqs huge frame just couldn't go through 82 games + playoffs year after year. That's why he always missed regular season time in LA which people hold against him(and its part of why he only has 1 regular season MVP). But when it was the playoffs he always stepped up and played better than anyone ever has. And thats what matters in the end.

All you have to do is watch him play. The game was effortless and there was NOTHING defenses could do. This isn't like Kobe or Jordan making contested fadaway jumpshots with a hand in their face. You can't do anything about that, but how often are they going to make that? With a guy like Shaq he could just get inside and overpower anyone and there is NOTHING defenses could do. When a guy is dunking it down your throat and you are powerless to stop him you are looking at the greatest player ever. And if he wanted to change it up, he had a beautiful touch around the rim, he had a feel for the offense and could always find the open man when help came, and caught cutters all the time.

7'1
7'7 wingspan
350+ pounds
Athletic enough to get his head at rim level despite pushing 400 pounds

You will never see an athlete like that ever again.

[MisterAmazing]

Shaq is the GOAT.

If he had Phil Jackson for the entirety of his prime you would have seen him play at that level for even longer. Phil ALWAYS knew how to get the most out of his stars and take their games to another level. The triangle utilized all of Shaqs strengths.

Shaqs huge frame just couldn't go through 82 games + playoffs year after year. That's why he always missed regular season time in LA which people hold against him(and its part of why he only has 1 regular season MVP). But when it was the playoffs he always stepped up and played better than anyone ever has. And thats what matters in the end.

All you have to do is watch him play. The game was effortless and there was NOTHING defenses could do. This isn't like Kobe or Jordan making contested fadaway jumpshots with a hand in their face. You can't do anything about that, but how often are they going to make that? With a guy like Shaq he could just get inside and overpower anyone and there is NOTHING defenses could do. When a guy is dunking it down your throat and you are powerless to stop him you are looking at the greatest player ever. And if he wanted to change it up, he had a beautiful touch around the rim, he had a feel for the offense and could always find the open man when help came, and caught cutters all the time.

7'1
7'7 wingspan
350+ pounds
Athletic enough to get his head at rim level despite pushing 400 pounds

You will never see an athlete like that ever again.

the only time i will ever agree with tonymontana. cant believe im saying this, but well done.

[Graviton]

Could you name the all-stars of those opposing teams? The garbage teams he dominated don't impress me. If he had done this shit in the 90s against Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson he would have a say. But all 3 of his Finals opponents were shit, when he finally faced a good defensive squad in 2004 he showed how dominant he is. Only good big man he faced in those years was Duncan, and he is a PF. :oldlol:

Now if he played against Wilf, Russel, Kareem and put up those stats then you could have a case for GOAT.
.trolled.

[KG215]

Could you name the all-stars of those opposing teams? The garbage teams he dominated don't impress me. If he had done this shit in the 90s against Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson he would have a say. But all 3 of his Finals opponents were shit, when he finally faced a good defensive squad in 2004 he showed how dominant he is. Only good big man he faced in those years was Duncan, and he is a PF. :oldlol:

Now if he played against Wilf, Russel, Kareem and put up those stats then you could have a case for GOAT.
.trolled.
True, Shaq wasn't doing much and wasn't very good in the early and mid-90's.

Dammit...white text got me. Should've known better.

[Fresh Kid]

Shaq never scored 69, 70 or 81.:coleman:

[bdreason]

Offensively I've never seen a player dominate a game like 2000 Shaq. It wasn't just his high efficiency scoring, but also the attention he received every time he touched the ball. We're talking about a guy who averaged 30ppg on 57%... while facing consistent double/triple teams. Shaq was also a defensive force in the paint, despite the misconception that he was a lazy defender.

[ThaRegul8r]

Offensively I've never seen a player dominate a game like 2000 Shaq. It wasn't just his high efficiency scoring, but also the attention he received every time he touched the ball. We're talking about a guy who averaged 30ppg on 57%... while facing consistent double/triple teams. Shaq was also a defensive force in the paint, despite the misconception that he was a lazy defender.

In 2000, Shaq was a DPOY candidate (finished second in the voting). What he did before 2000 and after 2000 defensively is irrelevant when discussing that particular year.

[Unbiased_one]

Shaq never scored 69, 70 or 81.:coleman:

He never tried to either.

[ThaRegul8r]

Shaq never scored 69, 70 or 81.:coleman:

I guess since Wilt scored 100, that should end all debate.

cue rationalizations

[Haks]

Yes he is

[miles berg]

Damn near. Definitely the best player since Jordan.

[LAZERUSS]

A peak Shaq certainly has a case.

Personally I would rank Wilt's '65-66 and '66-67 seasons as slightly higher, because he was better defensively, and a better rebounder, and he dominated his peers more than Shaq did his (although Shaq's Finals was perhaps the greatest ever.)

Then a peak KAJ, covering his 70-71 season, and playoffs, thru his 71-72 regular season (he was dramatically reduced in the playoffs that year.)

[secund2nun]

Shaq is the GOAT.

If he had Phil Jackson for the entirety of his prime you would have seen him play at that level for even longer. Phil ALWAYS knew how to get the most out of his stars and take their games to another level. The triangle utilized all of Shaqs strengths.

Shaqs huge frame just couldn't go through 82 games + playoffs year after year. That's why he always missed regular season time in LA which people hold against him(and its part of why he only has 1 regular season MVP). But when it was the playoffs he always stepped up and played better than anyone ever has. And thats what matters in the end.

All you have to do is watch him play. The game was effortless and there was NOTHING defenses could do. This isn't like Kobe or Jordan making contested fadaway jumpshots with a hand in their face. You can't do anything about that, but how often are they going to make that? With a guy like Shaq he could just get inside and overpower anyone and there is NOTHING defenses could do. When a guy is dunking it down your throat and you are powerless to stop him you are looking at the greatest player ever. And if he wanted to change it up, he had a beautiful touch around the rim, he had a feel for the offense and could always find the open man when help came, and caught cutters all the time.

7'1
7'7 wingspan
350+ pounds
Athletic enough to get his head at rim level despite pushing 400 pounds

You will never see an athlete like that ever again.

+1

The GOAT he is. The Shaq attack was as close to unstoppable as anything in NBA history!

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq is the GOAT.

If he had Phil Jackson for the entirety of his prime you would have seen him play at that level for even longer. Phil ALWAYS knew how to get the most out of his stars and take their games to another level. The triangle utilized all of Shaqs strengths.

Shaqs huge frame just couldn't go through 82 games + playoffs year after year. That's why he always missed regular season time in LA which people hold against him(and its part of why he only has 1 regular season MVP). But when it was the playoffs he always stepped up and played better than anyone ever has. And thats what matters in the end.

All you have to do is watch him play. The game was effortless and there was NOTHING defenses could do. This isn't like Kobe or Jordan making contested fadaway jumpshots with a hand in their face. You can't do anything about that, but how often are they going to make that? With a guy like Shaq he could just get inside and overpower anyone and there is NOTHING defenses could do. When a guy is dunking it down your throat and you are powerless to stop him you are looking at the greatest player ever. And if he wanted to change it up, he had a beautiful touch around the rim, he had a feel for the offense and could always find the open man when help came, and caught cutters all the time.

7'1
7'7 wingspan
350+ pounds
Athletic enough to get his head at rim level despite pushing 400 pounds

You will never see an athlete like that ever again.

Wilt

7-1+
7-8 wingspan
300+ lbs.
High-jump champion, sprinter on his college track team, and probably the strongest man to have ever played in the NBA. And likely capable of touching the top of the backboard (eye-witness accounts...as well as video footage which would indicate he was capable of it.)

[K Xerxes]

IMO, the top 5 peaks goes like:

Jordan
Shaq
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem

With some interchangeability.

All in all, I think peak big men have a larger impact on the game than guards, with the exception being peak Jordan of course.

I think peak Shaq has a case for sure. He was as dominant as dominant can be offensively and was very underrated defensively back then too, particularly in the 00 season where he was a superb defensive anchor.

From what I've seen of the two, it's so so difficult between Jordan and Shaq. Shaq was more dominant offensively, obviously on the boards, but Jordan made FTs at a better rate and could not be exploited for that weakness in late game situations.

[SwayDizzle]

Uhhhmm....no

Even Kobe is better than Shaq, and Kobe is a legit top 6 GOAT.

[Twiens]

If Shaq could've shot 75/80% on free-throws he would've been the undisputable GOAT

[Living Being]

Yes, Shaq was better than Wilt ever was.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, Shaq was better than Wilt ever was.

Yep....the Record Book has Shaq's name plastered all over it. Oh wait....

[millwad]

Yep....the Record Book has Shaq's name plastered all over it. Oh wait....

Shaq crushed the competition during the Lakers 3-peat, he absolutely destroyed the league and lead his Laker team in scoring and was the man.

Wilt was the tied 2nd and 4th option during his title runs..

And record books, please... Wilt didn't win shit during his statistical prime and his records are due the fact that he played selfish basketball in an extremely high-paced era.

[Living Being]

Yep....the Record Book has Shaq's name plastered all over it. Oh wait....
Every time I have posted something about Wilt in a thread where you have posted = trolling. In truth, I actually appreciate your posts and walls of text.

[Living Being]

Shaq crushed the competition during the Lakers 3-peat, he absolutely destroyed the league and lead his Laker team in scoring and was the man.

Wilt was the tied 2nd and 4th option during his title runs..

And record books, please... Wilt didn't win shit during his statistical prime and his records are due the fact that he played selfish basketball in an extremely high-paced era.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130525032206/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/f/f0/Dis_gon_b_gud.gif

[MisterAmazing]

Uhhhmm....no

Even Kobe is better than Shaq, and Kobe is a legit top 6 GOAT.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[iamgine]

It's too bad Shaq peaked when every all time great center else was either old or retired.

[Horde of Temujin]

I would take peak Dream over any other center.

[millwad]

I would take peak Dream over any other center.

Me too.

[LAZERUSS]

Shaq crushed the competition during the Lakers 3-peat, he absolutely destroyed the league and lead his Laker team in scoring and was the man.

Wilt was the tied 2nd and 4th option during his title runs..

And record books, please... Wilt didn't win shit during his statistical prime and his records are due the fact that he played selfish basketball in an extremely high-paced era.

You mean the Wilt that "didn't win shit" in his rookie season, when he took a LAST-PACE team to a then team record of 49-26...all while leading the league in scoring and rebounding.

Or the "stats-padding" Chamberlain, whose COACH told him to score, leading the core of that same LAST-PLACE roster to a 49-31 record, and then thru the first round of the playoffs (with a must-win and series-clinching 56 point 35 rebound game), and then to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 HOF-laden Celtics....with a 34 ppg series,...all while his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season?

Or a Chamberlain, in his 64-65 season, taking a 40-40 team, which had been 34-46 the year before he arrived, and crushing the 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then taking that team to a game seven, one point loss against the 62-18 Celtics, and doing so with a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 FG series?

Or in his 65-66 season, when he led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG% (as well as handing out 5.2 apg),and, oh BTW, led his team to the BEST RECORD in the league (how many times did Hakeem do that BTW?)

You mean the Wilt who LED his '67 Sixers in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and assists en route to a 68-13 record? And had the HIGH game in the NBA that season, with 58 points? Or that had the HIGH game for the Sixers in the post-season, with 41 points. And who averaged 21.7 ppg, 29.2 rpg, 9.2 apg, and shot a team high (and by a MILE) .579 FG%? And who dominated the clinching game against the eight-time defending Celtics in the EDF's with a 29 point, 10-16 shooting, 13 assist, 7 block, 36 rebound game (and BTW, he had 22 points in the first half when the game was still close)? And then destroyed Thurmond in the entire Finals, including a clinching game six performance of 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds, while holding Nate to 12 points on 4-13 shooting 9and oh BTW, his "leading scorer teammate ...scored 15 points on 5-15 shooting)?

Or the Chamberlain who led his team to the BEST RECORD in the league in '68, and had the FOUR highest scoring games in the NBA that season (52, 53, 53, and 68 points)? All while leading the league in assists, rpg, and FG%?

Yep...he "didn't win shit."

[Odinn]

It's too bad Shaq peaked when every all time great center else was either old or retired.
Yeah. When you look at like that, other than Duncan and Garnett, there was no big that can challenge Shaq for the all-time list. But it would be just ignorant to say Shaq didn't face elite frountcourts during his 3peat seasons.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Could you name the all-stars of those opposing teams? The garbage teams he dominated don't impress me.

2000 Blazers were stacked, and a great defensive team. The defense they played on Shaq was some of the toughest I've seen played on a player, particularly with Pippen doubling Shaq on the catch.

2002 Kings were also loaded. Both are far from garbage teams.

As far as big men? He faced some solid ones and some weak ones during the 3peat, but he also dominated Dikembe Mutombo in the '01 finals. Mutombo of course was a 4-time DPOY, and Shaq averaged 33/16/5/3 in that series.

[Legends66NBA7]

2000 Blazers were stacked, and a great defensive team. The defense they played on Shaq was some of the toughest I've seen played on a player, particularly with Pippen doubling Shaq on the catch.

2002 Kings were also loaded. Both are far from garbage teams.

As far as big men? He faced some solid ones and some weak ones during the 3peat, but he also dominated Dikembe Mutombo in the '01 finals. Mutombo of course was a 4-time DPOY, and Shaq averaged 33/16/5/3 in that series.

Graviton wasn't being serious.

[GrapeApe]

A little off topic, but I wish Shaq would have put aside his ego and and adopted Rick Barry's free throw style. I know Barry reached out to him several times but Shaq refused to try it.

[Marchesk]

As far as big men? He faced some solid ones and some weak ones during the 3peat, but he also dominated Dikembe Mutombo in the '01 finals. Mutombo of course was a 4-time DPOY, and Shaq averaged 33/16/5/3 in that series.

Mutombo just didn't weigh enough. He was getting bullied around by a guy 100+ pounds heavier than him. And stronger. I give Mutombo credit for standing in there and not flopping. He was taking elbows to the face and still contesting Shaq's dunks.

Mutombo manned up, but what could he do against that behomoth?

[KyleKong]

Shaq is the GOAT.

If he had Phil Jackson for the entirety of his prime you would have seen him play at that level for even longer. Phil ALWAYS knew how to get the most out of his stars and take their games to another level. The triangle utilized all of Shaqs strengths.

Shaqs huge frame just couldn't go through 82 games + playoffs year after year. That's why he always missed regular season time in LA which people hold against him(and its part of why he only has 1 regular season MVP). But when it was the playoffs he always stepped up and played better than anyone ever has. And thats what matters in the end.

All you have to do is watch him play. The game was effortless and there was NOTHING defenses could do. This isn't like Kobe or Jordan making contested fadaway jumpshots with a hand in their face. You can't do anything about that, but how often are they going to make that? With a guy like Shaq he could just get inside and overpower anyone and there is NOTHING defenses could do. When a guy is dunking it down your throat and you are powerless to stop him you are looking at the greatest player ever. And if he wanted to change it up, he had a beautiful touch around the rim, he had a feel for the offense and could always find the open man when help came, and caught cutters all the time.

7'1
7'7 wingspan
350+ pounds
Athletic enough to get his head at rim level despite pushing 400 pounds

You will never see an athlete like that ever again.

The only reason why Shaq is not the GOAT is because of all the games he missed, otherwise he is the GOAT.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Mutombo just didn't weigh enough. He was getting bullied around by a guy 100+ pounds heavier than him. And stronger. I give Mutombo credit for standing in there and not flopping. He was taking elbows to the face and still contesting Shaq's dunks.

Mutombo manned up, but what could he do against that behomoth?

Of course, because Shaq outweighed virtually every player he faced. Although Mutombo had historically done a very good job defending Shaq prior to that 2001 finals series.

Mutombo was a great defender, it's just that Shaq's dominance at his peak level in the '01 playoffs could overcome that, particularly with Larry brown preferring not to double as much.

[eliteballer]

..because Shaq didn't dominate all the 90's centers before he peaked:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep....the Record Book has Shaq's name plastered all over it. Oh wait....
http://jerseychaser.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Shaq-Dwight-Howard-Beef-150x150.jpg

And btw, what's Wilt's playoff record book look like? Or should it be called the Jordan playoff book?

[tpols]

Mutombo just didn't weigh enough. He was getting bullied around by a guy 100+ pounds heavier than him. And stronger. I give Mutombo credit for standing in there and not flopping. He was taking elbows to the face and still contesting Shaq's dunks.

Mutombo manned up, but what could he do against that behomoth?
Exactly the way I always saw it.. Mutombo was your typical stick skinny but super long African player. Great length and instincts for shot blocking but guarding a bull like Shaq? Not really.. Especially old mutumbo.

Ben Wallace who is much shorter and less lengthy handled shaq much better because he had the strength not to get pushed back.



Really the problem was there was no dominant offensive big man to challenge shaq at his own position. It's one thing to throw defensive specialists at a player, another to have to play defense and offense on another great center.. Have a real chess match go on.

[StocktonFan]

No one is stopping prime shaq... shaq held his own against prime hakeem in the 90's. Early 2000 shaq >>>>> 1990's shaq.