Derrick Rose's MVP was a travesty.

[Nastradamus]

Lebron should have that one too. It doesn't get said enough

[Inferno]

Nastradamus was a travesty.

[LosScandalous]

Post all star break 2011 Rose >> LeBron

this gets brought up a lot, some people say Dwight shoulda won too.


I still give it to rose.

[LosScandalous]

Nastradamus was a travesty.
:applause:

[K Xerxes]

I'm really getting tired of this anti-Rose nonsense.

If the MVP award was the best player of the year award, then sure, give it to LeBron. But over the past 20 or so years, there have been numerous times when the best player in the world has NOT won the MVP (Jordan, Shaq, Kobe etc).

So, if we're applying the past, Rose was the MVP in 2011. LeBron was busy playing co-alpha with Wade, and they still ended up with less than 60 wins in an underwhelming regular season.

[SCdac]

Averaged 25 ppg / 8 apg for a slow, low scoring 62-win team that was missing key players for parts of the season... Rose had a Usage-% second to only Kobe Bryant that season, and almost all his in-game production went up in Wins (vs Losses)...MVP was definitely well deserved.

[Derka]

No it wasn't.

[WayOfWade]

In my opinion, MVP should be given to the best player on a top 4 seed team (either conference), who has played at least 66 games that season. That sound good or bad?

[DuMa]

every few years, there will be an MVP like Rose. just like how Steve Nash won it over Shaq and how Karl Malone won it over MJ. i just accept that every few years there will be a bad choice for MVP and just accept it.

In the end it doesnt even affect Lebron that much. He will still get like at least 6 MVPs total and be closer to GOAT status. one more MVP wont make his case much more worthy than it already is.

[secund2nun]

Rose= WMOT worst mvp of all time

Shaq should have won the MVP over Nash, but Nash was a much better MVP choice than Rose.

[Twiens]

Shut the **** up. Why are all Miami fans obsessed with hating on D-Rose? I sense some fear there, *******.

[KnicksWolves]

There are always years when the MVP isn't rewarded to someone based purely on level of play. For one reason or another, there just seem to be years where there's more of a fixation on a good 'story' for the MVP award. And D Rose's story was a pretty darn good one.

Based purely on level of play, it should've been Dwight or LeBron that year.

[Jameerthefear]

It was between Dwight or Rose.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I'm really getting tired of this anti-Rose nonsense.

If the MVP award was the best player of the year award, then sure, give it to LeBron. But over the past 20 or so years, there have been numerous times when the best player in the world has NOT won the MVP (Jordan, Shaq, Kobe etc).

So, if we're applying the past, Rose was the MVP in 2011. LeBron was busy playing co-alpha with Wade, and they still ended up with less than 60 wins in an underwhelming regular season.
Exactly.

The same reason why Iverson's 2001 MVP is totally justifiable, even if he wasn't the "best player" in the league. And no one really claims he was or Rose for that matter.

Who do you give it to that season? LeBron and Wade's numbers were the EXACT same. Even if LeBron was the best player he didn't separate his play and production enough from his own teammate to warrant serious contention. Wade was still playing his peak like basketball. And given the way the team was formed, he came across as very cowardly that year. He's forgiven thereafter for having to carry such a heavy burden in 2012, and 2013. But the fact still remains he wasn't unquestionably the Heat's best player in 2011. Even if retrospect of consistency tells us he probably was.

Same reason Shaq didn't deserve MVP in 2001. You don't get the award when there is a co-alpha on your team, like Kobe was putting up an absurd 29/5/5 and essentially being the team's closer late in games. Iverson was a 5'11 lone gunner and playmaker on a team full of defensive role players. His season in CONTEXT is much more impressive. His load, and pressure was much heavier.

Give it to Dwight? Why? He had more offensive weapons than Rose on his team, and he wasn't NEAR as clutch as Rose was all season. Derrick single handedly in certain games turned losses into wins with 4th quarter take overs and come backs on his shoulders.

Derrick Rose was a 6' PG having to play BOTH guard spots due to Keith Bogans spot up shooting, scoring incompetence. He was the lone scorer and play maker on a team that ended up having the best record in the league and totally surpassed expectations. Out performing a team that brought together three franchises pieces in the off season. Context tells me it's much more impressive than what LeBron could've done to win MVP that year. Inconsistent Carlos Boozer, whose stats declined significantly each month that year was billed as his second best player, in a desparate 2010 free agency signing?

:facepalm

Stay salty LeBron stans. Your boy DID NOT deserve MVP in 2011. The only one who earned it that year through guts, determination, and will was Derrick Rose. Jimmies are still rustled, sand still firmly in your camel toes. Get over it. If LeBron is clearly the better player (which he is) then take solace in that and stop being so insecure.

[jzek]

Media always gets tired of giving the MVP trophy to the same guy. If they didn't, Jordan would have won every year in the 90s

[Jameerthefear]

Exactly.

The same reason why Iverson's 2001 MVP is totally justifiable, even if he wasn't the "best player" in the league. And no one really claims he was or Rose for that matter.

Who do you give it to that season? LeBron and Wade's numbers were the EXACT same. Even if LeBron was the best player he didn't separate his play and production enough from his own teammate to warrant serious contention. Wade was still playing his peak like basketball. And given the way the team was formed, he came across as very cowardly that year. He's forgiven thereafter for having to carry such a heavy burden in 2012, and 2013. But the fact still remains he wasn't unquestionably the Heat's best player in 2011. Even if retrospect of consistency tells us he probably was.

Same reason Shaq didn't deserve MVP in 2001. You don't get the award when there is a co-alpha on your team, like Kobe was putting up an absurd 29/5/5 and essentially being the team's closer late in games. Iverson was a 5'11 lone gunner and playmaker on a team full of defensive role players. His season in CONTEXT is much more impressive. His load, and pressure was much heavier.

Give it to Dwight? Why? He had more offensive weapons than Rose on his team, and he wasn't NEAR as clutch as Rose was all season. Derrick single handedly in certain games turned losses into wins with 4th quarter take overs and come backs on his shoulders.

Derrick Rose was a 6' PG having to play BOTH guard spots due to Keith Bogans spot up shooting, scoring incompetence. He was the lone scorer and play maker on a team that ended up having the best record in the league and totally surpassed expectations. Out performing a team that brought together three franchises pieces in the off season. Context tells me it's much more impressive than what LeBron could've done to win MVP that year. Inconsistent Carlos Boozer, whose stats declined significantly each month that year was billed as his second best player, in a desparate 2010 free agency signing?

:facepalm

Stay salty LeBron stans. Your boy DID NOT deserve MVP in 2011. The only one who earned it that year through guts, determination, and will was Derrick Rose. Jimmies are still rustled, sand still firmly in your camel toes. Get over it. If LeBron is clearly the better player (which he is) then take solace in that and stop being so insecure.
On Dwight: He might have had the offensive weapons that fit, but he didn't have the defense Rose had.

[RRR3]

LeBron didn't deserve it either. Dwight probably had the best case.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Dwight Howard should have won it imo.

[SamuraiSWISH]

On Dwight: He might have had the offensive weapons that fit, but he didn't have the defense Rose had.
They had the EXACT same pieces that allowed the Magic to be ranked the number 1 defense in 2009, though?

Dwight brings the most impact on defense, he's a big man, that's his side of the ball to dominate.

Rose brings the most impact on offense, he's a combo guard, that's his side of the ball to dominate. And he was the only reason their offense was respectable.

What's the difference?

Rose produced more wins, and lead his team further in the playoffs. Thus the MVP. Dwight's a clown, he wasn't the MVP of 2011. Rose even out performed him in their head to head matchups.

Rose played THE BEST against the top ranked teams in 2011. Stay salty, bro. No one deserved it more than Derrick that season. No questions asked.

[TonyMontana]

Rose wasn't even the MVP of his own team, let alone the league.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Joakim_Noah_3.jpg/220px-Joakim_Noah_3.jpg

If LeBron doesn't win it, it should have been Dirk. Dwights team was like a 5th seed. Meanwhile Dirks team was a championship contender(they ended up winning it all).

Dallas was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk. That record with him healthy would've been good for BEST in the NBA. To educated basketall fans, Dallas playoff dominance wasn't THAT big of a surprise.

[imdaman99]

the lebron fanboys despise rose for this :oldlol:

if dwight won it, they would hate him too :roll:

talk about living through someone else. im pretty sure lebron said whether he wins that ring or not, you'll still have the same problems you started with in the morning. he said that to his haters, but it applies to his stans too :lol

[Jameerthefear]

They had the EXACT same pieces that allowed the Magic to be ranked the number 1 defense in 2009, though?

Dwight brings the most impact on defense, he's a big man, that's his side of the ball to dominate.

Rose brings the most impact on offense, he's a combo guard, that's his side of the ball to dominate. And he was the only reason their offense was respectable.

What's the difference?

Rose produced more wins, and lead his team further in the playoffs. Thus the MVP. Dwight's a clown, he wasn't the MVP of 2011. Rose even out performed him in their head to head matchups.

Rose played THE BEST against the top ranked teams in 2011. Stay salty, bro. No one deserved it more than Derrick that season. No questions asked.
I'm not salty at all. I just think that Dwight's impact on both sides of the ball >>> D-Rose's offense. MVP is a regular season award and h2h matchup don't really matter much because they play such different positions.

[Clifton]

Really? 2011 Lebron is the one MVP snub you're going to pick out? The year the all-time borderline-corrupt superteam was formed and basically stunk up the place, and then didn't win a title that year to boot - with Jason Terry outperforming Lebron in the Finals? That's the one that's a travesty?

[K Xerxes]

Rose wasn't even the MVP of his own team, let alone the league.

Noah missed 34 games that season and the Bulls ended up 62-20, you troll.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Noah missed 34 games that season and the Bulls ended up 62-20, you troll.
Seriously. Keep posting so you can school these clowns. Noah for MVP? LMAO ... missed 34 games, that's essentially half the season.

RG and his now never ending troll agenda against guards or little men who bring MAJOR impact to teams.

Rose's two next best players, Noah missed 34 games ... half the season and newly acquired Boozer missed 20 some odd games, a quarter of the season and severely underperformed even when on the floor.

Rose averaged BETTER numbers than LeBron against the top ten teams in the league that season, too. Clearly RG is bitter.

[NumberSix]

We don't "hate" Rose. We just recognize what a joke it is that he was gifted an MVP he had absolutely no case for. He should have been 6th in the MVP voting at best. LeBron, Dwight, Dirk, Durant, Kobe all had a better season than Rose.

Rose winning in 2011 is the equivalent of if Tim Hardaway would have won in 1999. Good player. #1 seed team, but really doesn't have any case for MVP of the league.

[TonyMontana]

Noah missed 34 games that season and the Bulls ended up 62-20, you troll.

I was speaking about these Bulls teams in general.

I would much rather play a Bulls team without Noah than a Bulls team without Rose.

This year Nate Robinson was doing pretty much the same role Rose was doing to a certain extent. Not as good, but doing what was needed in terms of creating.

Chicago still took Miami just as far as they did with a healthy Rose(and the rest of their team being healthy as well.) as they did to a Nate Robinson and injury plauged Bulls team(5 games again).

Roses actual impact is incredibly overrated.

[RRR3]

We don't "hate" Rose. We just recognize what a joke it is that he was gifted an MVP he had absolutely no case for. He should have been 6th in the MVP voting at best. LeBron, Dwight, Dirk, Durant, Kobe all had a better season than Rose.

Rose winning in 2011 is the equivalent of if Tim Hardaway would have won in 1999. Good player. #1 seed team, but really doesn't have any case for MVP of the league.
Wade?

[aj1987]

Post all star break 2011 Rose >> LeBron

this gets brought up a lot, some people say Dwight shoulda won too.


I still give it to rose.
Rose: 25/3/7/1/1 on 44/30/88
Lebron: 28/8/6/1/1 on 56/30/75

Did the Bulls >>> the Heat in the regular season? Absolutely. But, at no point in their careers did Rose even come close to owning Lebron or even being better than him.

[Brook(lyn)Lopez]

Tom Thibodeau's defensive schemes and overplaying of starters during the regular season were the MVP that season, not Rose's overrated chucking.

[Rose'sACL]

let it go. he won already and it wasn't that bad of a decision.

[#number6ix#]

Rose earned it

[K Xerxes]

Seriously. Keep posting so you can school these clowns. Noah for MVP? LMAO ... missed 34 games, that's essentially half the season.

RG and his now never ending troll agenda against guards or little men who bring MAJOR impact to teams.

Rose's two next best players, Noah missed 34 games ... half the season and newly acquired Boozer missed 20 some odd games, a quarter of the season and severely underperformed even when on the floor.

Rose averaged BETTER numbers than LeBron against the top ten teams in the league that season, too. Clearly RG is bitter.

This RG dude is absolutely awful. His anti-Bulls agenda is disgraceful. :facepalm


I was speaking about these Bulls teams in general.

I would much rather play a Bulls team without Noah than a Bulls team without Rose.

This year Nate Robinson was doing pretty much the same role Rose was doing to a certain extent. Not as good, but doing what was needed in terms of creating.

Chicago still took Miami just as far as they did with a healthy Rose(and the rest of their team being healthy as well.) as they did to a Nate Robinson and injury plauged Bulls team(5 games again).

Roses actual impact is incredibly overrated.

Look, troll, if you actually watched any of the Bulls games or know anything about them, you'd know that that is bullshit.

In the 11-12 season, the Bulls went 50-16.

With Rose, they went 32-7 (82% and on course for 67-15 in a full 82 season).

Without Rose, they went 18-9 (67% and on course for 55-27 in a full 82 season). Incidentally, they went 45-37 in the 12-13 without Rose playing a single game, although they were injury stricken for a lot of that year (Noah, Deng etc missed games) which explains the decrease from expected record (somewhere around 55-27) to their actual record.

Last 3 seasons (i.e. start of Rose's MVP year):

Record with Rose: 94-26 (78%)

Record without Rose: 63-47 (57%)

In the playoffs:

2011: With an injured Rose on grade 2 sprained ankle: ECF (all games were close except the first game at Chicago where they blew out Miami).

2012: With Rose for first game: first round only (blew out Philly first game, lose 4 out of the next 5)

2013: Without Rose: ECSF (sneak past Brooklyn, beaten by Miami in 5 games)

[nathanjizzle]

Rose: 25/3/7/1/1 on 44/30/88
Lebron: 28/8/6/1/1 on 56/30/75

Did the Bulls >>> the Heat in the regular season? Absolutely. But, at no point in their careers did Rose even come close to owning Lebron or even being better than him.

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

no ones gives a shit if u can score 28 points against the bucks.

[Chicago Brawls]

Suck on these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t_bSn2bh9Q

[TonyMontana]

This RG dude is absolutely awful. His anti-Bulls agenda is disgraceful. :facepalm



Look, troll, if you actually watched any of the Bulls games or know anything about them, you'd know that that is bullshit.

In the 11-12 season, the Bulls went 50-16.

With Rose, they went 32-7 (82% and on course for 67-15 in a full 82 season).

Without Rose, they went 18-9 (67% and on course for 55-27 in a full 82 season). Incidentally, they went 45-37 in the 12-13 without Rose playing a single game, although they were injury stricken for a lot of that year (Noah, Deng etc missed games) which explains the decrease from expected record (somewhere around 55-27) to their actual record.

Last 3 seasons (i.e. start of Rose's MVP year):

Record with Rose: 94-26 (78%)

Record without Rose: 63-47 (57%)

In the playoffs:

2011: With an injured Rose on grade 2 sprained ankle: ECF (all games were close except the first game at Chicago where they blew out Miami).

2012: With Rose for first game: first round only (blew out Philly first game, lose 4 out of the next 5)

2013: Without Rose: ECSF (sneak past Brooklyn, beaten by Miami in 5 games)

I'm not RG and I assure you there is no "anti Bulls" agenda. I am saying that Noah is a more valuable player to that team than Rose. If you were an actual Bulls fan that wouldn't be so offensive and we could argue it, but you are clearly just a Rose/Jordan stan.

Rose is a good regular season player. He will be able to pad his stats and secure additional wins for the team against the irrelevant ball clubs.

But in the playoffs when your playing real defenses, Noah is the teams most important player, especially if you want to beat Miami. Without him there is no chance of that happening.

Look at how Rose's FG% shrank when he had to play the Heat in 2011. His penetration game wasn't working when he had to go around guys like LeBron, Wade, and Chalmers. A 6'2 guard can only effect the game so much, and against bigger and competitive athletes you are not going to get clean looks like you do in the regular season vs the Sacramento Kings.

If you want to beat Miami it has to happen in the paint because the team is weak there. Noah clowns Bosh every time these teams play eachother and that has to be exploited. Your not beating Miami on the perimeter, guys like Butler and Deng are good to slow LeBron down , but that's all your going to do with that matchup.

Your subpar perimeter players just cannot match up with the greatness that is known as LeBron James. You better make sure your bigs dominate their matchup to counteract the damage or your going to be going home early.

Noah prevents easy baskets an GETS easy baskets. Elite rim defender and rebounder. Smart offensive player that helps the teams in ways other than ball domination.

[Pointguard]

It was definitely the best thing for Lebron that Rose won that year. His last two historic years would have not been sweeps of MVP's that's for sure if Lebron had won that year.

Rose's MVP stands out more when you realize how Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Dwight all had trouble with new teams that were ultra talented. Rose was the one that really mastered that new team situation and he had big injuries, way more responsibility, new coach, best record, dominated the elite after Dec. 8th and his second and third best players underperformed and missed a lot of games.

Lebron and Wade were simply not special against the elite, had two loosing streaks because of confusion. Amazingly didn't have the best record. They couldn't meddle out who was the leader and lost a lot of big games because of it. They took alternate games to assert themselves.

Dwight Howard was simply not a superstar the last two months. I criticized him for not being a leader and being a spectator as his team crumbled.

Derrick Rose had an uncommon domination of PG's in h2h comp.
Team had an uncommon domination of other elite teams
Rose won the most games in the 4th quarter.
Only player top ten ppg and apg.
Team was the best team and kept getting better despite injuries.
Day in and day out was the only player that played hard every game that season.

Lebron was the only real comp but he underachieved with his team.

[aj1987]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

no ones gives a shit if u can score 28 points against the bucks.
And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).

[nathanjizzle]

And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).

this thread is about his mvp which is decided in the regular season :facepalm comprehension is not a skill you have.

and wrong, im talking about the last games against the top 8 teams. like i said no one gives a shit if you can beat scrub teams, its what you do against elite teams.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It was definitely the best thing for Lebron that Rose won that year. His last two historic years would have not been sweeps of MVP's that's for sure if Lebron had won that year.

Rose's MVP stands out more when you realize how Lebron, Wade, Kobe and Dwight all had trouble with new teams that were ultra talented. Rose was the one that really mastered that new team situation and he had big injuries, way more responsibility, new coach, best record, dominated the elite after Dec. 8th and his second and third best players underperformed and missed a lot of games.

Lebron and Wade were simply not special against the elite, had two loosing streaks because of confusion. Amazingly didn't have the best record. They couldn't meddle out who was the leader and lost a lot of big games because of it. They took alternate games to assert themselves.

Dwight Howard was simply not a superstar the last two months. I criticized him for not being a leader and being a spectator as his team crumbled.

Derrick Rose had an uncommon domination of PG's in h2h comp.
Team had an uncommon domination of other elite teams
Rose won the most games in the 4th quarter.
Only player top ten ppg and apg.
Team was the best team and kept getting better despite injuries.
Day in and day out was the only player that played hard every game that season.

Lebron was the only real comp but he underachieved with his team.
:biggums:

shit that makes your soul burn slow ...

[aj1987]

this thread is about his mvp which is decided in the regular season :facepalm comprehension is not a skill you have.
And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams.:facepalm Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He averaged more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.

[Jameerthefear]

And when it mattered, Lebron destroyed Rose. 4-1. Nobody gives a shit if you score in the RS, if you can't score for shit in the playoffs.
Lebron: 26/8/7/2/2 on 45/39/86
Rose: 23/4/7/1 on 35/24/82
7% in the 4th quarters.

And no. The last 13 games, they went 11-2 (lost against the Bucks and Cavs).
MVP is a regular season award.

[Pointguard]

I'm not RG and I assure you there is no "anti Bulls" agenda. I am saying that Noah is a more valuable player to that team than Rose. If you were an actual Bulls fan that wouldn't be so offensive and we could argue it, but you are clearly just a Rose/Jordan stan.

Rose is a good regular season player. He will be able to pad his stats and secure additional wins for the team against the irrelevant ball clubs.

But in the playoffs when your playing real defenses, Noah is the teams most important player, especially if you want to beat Miami. Without him there is no chance of that happening.

Look at how Rose's FG% shrank when he had to play the Heat in 2011. His penetration game wasn't working when he had to go around guys like LeBron, Wade, and Chalmers. A 6'2 guard can only effect the game so much, and against bigger and competitive athletes you are not going to get clean looks like you do in the regular season vs the Sacramento Kings.

If you want to beat Miami it has to happen in the paint because the team is weak there. Noah clowns Bosh every time these teams play eachother and that has to be exploited. Your not beating Miami on the perimeter, guys like Butler and Deng are good to slow LeBron down , but that's all your going to do with that matchup.

Your subpar perimeter players just cannot match up with the greatness that is known as LeBron James. You better make sure your bigs dominate their matchup to counteract the damage or your going to be going home early.

Noah prevents easy baskets an GETS easy baskets. Elite rim defender and rebounder. Smart offensive player that helps the teams in ways other than ball domination.

To be honest with you Noah sucked that year. Never got it going in the regular season. Was benched in the playoffs in the 4th quarter that year in the playoffs! Even drew the wrath of Pippen and Thibes. You just made a mistake here. Their best season was, was Rose's MVP run when Noah played about 20 good games (regular season and playoffs combined) and Rose carried them. You have to be out of your mind if you think Noah could do that with any team. They are on a whole new level with Rose.

[Lakers2877]

Agreed. It was really bad

[ShaqAttack3234]

Same reason Shaq didn't deserve MVP in 2001. You don't get the award when there is a co-alpha on your team, like Kobe was putting up an absurd 29/5/5 and essentially being the team's closer late in games. Iverson was a 5'11 lone gunner and playmaker on a team full of defensive role players. His season in CONTEXT is much more impressive. His load, and pressure was much heavier.

Shaq was actually the Lakers leading scorer in thew 4th quarter during the '01 regular season with a slight edge of 7.1 ppg to Kobe's 6'9. ppg in the 4th.

Besides, I'm not sure how much Kobe can be held against Shaq during that regular season since the Lakers went 11-3 without him.

Also not sure how Iverson or Rose's height makes them more valuable. If anything, the opposite is true considering it limits how much they can impact a game defensively. Both were on teams that were elite rebounding teams and elite defensive teams which is one of the issues I have with their MVPs and the perception that they did everything for the teams.

Considering how crucial that late game stretch was when Kobe was injured with the West so close, how dominant Shaq was and the momentum to finish the season on an 8 game winning streak getting the number 2 seed and setting up the playoffs run. That's more than enough for me.

Of course, I do factor in individual dominance and best player to some degree. I think the award should be somewhat representative of that, which is why I also have Kobe as the '06 MVP for example.


Give it to Dwight? Why? He had more offensive weapons than Rose on his team, and he wasn't NEAR as clutch as Rose was all season. Derrick single handedly in certain games turned losses into wins with 4th quarter take overs and come backs on his shoulders.

Dwight didn't have great offensive talent around him either. J-Rich was primarily a streaky shooter. Hedo was a decent role player, but not at his '08 or '09 level, or even close. Pretty inconsistent as well. Jameer wasn't that good. Never a natural playmaker, had a tendency to overdribble and he often took bad shots. He was skilled, but also inconsistent and not a big impact player. Brandon Bass was a good offensive 4 with a nice mid-range shot, and Anderson was a stretch 4 who made a lot of 3s, but that was the extent of his offensive game. JJ Redick was a good shooter, little more.

None of them were really consistent, and which of these players could create their own shot. Nelson, and sometimes Turkoglu.

Boozer was still a better offensive player than any of those players, Deng as well.


They had the EXACT same pieces that allowed the Magic to be ranked the number 1 defense in 2009, though?

And they remained elite defensively at number 3. Although they didn't have the exact same pieces either. 2009 team had Mickael Pietrus, Courtney Lee, Rashard Lewis, Marcin Gortat, Anthony Johnson.

2011 team had J-Rich, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson and broken down Gilbert Arenas instead of those players.

I'd say that's a downgrade defensively if anything.


Dwight brings the most impact on defense, he's a big man, that's his side of the ball to dominate.

Rose brings the most impact on offense, he's a combo guard, that's his side of the ball to dominate. And he was the only reason their offense was respectable.

Except Dwight's offense was far closer to Rose's defense. That's the difference, Dwight was the best defensive player in the game, but he still averaged 23/14.

If you take Dwight off that Magic team, they're terrible. They lost their elite defense and are probably among the worst defensively, they'd probably regularly get outrebounded and drop from an average offensive team to among the worst.

[LongLiveTheKing]

It should've been Bron or Dwight.

[dude77]

Shut the **** up. Why are all Miami fans obsessed with hating on D-Rose? I sense some fear there, *******.

:facepalm 4-1

[aj1987]

MVP is a regular season award.
Read my previous post. Rose wasn't a better scorer, passer, rebounder, or even a better defender than Lebron during the 2011 regular season. Name one aspect of the game in which Rose outplayed Lebron. Even the stats indicate that Lebron was a better player. Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.

[Jameerthefear]

Read my previous post. Rose wasn't a better scorer, passer, rebounder, or even a better defender than Lebron during the 2011 regular season. Name one aspect of the game in which Rose outplayed Lebron. Even the stats indicate that Lebron was a better player. Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.
Except the MVP award doesn't always go to the best player, but the most valuable one. Who knows if Bulls win a ring with LBJ instead of Rose. Do you not remember how pitiful Lebron looked in the finals that year?

[Orlando Magic]

Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.

All it takes is one or two loud mouthed ignorant ******s to float the idea and like sheep the rest come flocking. It's the same reason that Tony Parker got mvp hype this year. Tony ****ing Parker. Lmfao.

Tony ****ing Parker. If that doesn't wake you up to the fact that something is terribly wrong, nothing ever will.

[thabisyo]

Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.

Preach the truth. :applause:
Shaq definately deserved more. Shaq was always disrespected in the NBA

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Basically... I hate whenever the Lakers, Knicks, Bulls or Celtics have even a hint of a great player because they always get irrationally defended and worshipped.

Reason is because those teams have such large fan bases... naturally the overall number of retards is going to be larger and thus stick out like a sore thumb.

You guys can argue wether precedent means rose should have gotten the mvp or not but you damn well know that he did not nor did he ever do anything to actually deserve to be in the same breath with almost any other mvp ever.

The real thing that needs to change is the voting process because there's no damn way in hell that a guy like shaq who was UNDENIABLY AT A MINIMUM the most impacting player in the league for 3 years (I'd argue as many as 7 but it is inarguably 3) only has 1 mvp and a guy like rose who isn't even remotely close to being the player shaq was has the same amount of awards. It's a joke.

The media as a collective needs to be slapped and backhanded for stuff like that. Ridiculous.

Any given season they can basically choose whatever criteria they feel like and morally I have a problem with handing out the sport's top individual award to some random players based on voter fatigue or whatever you want to ****ing call it.

All it takes is one or two loud mouthed ignorant ******s to float the idea and like sheep the rest come flocking. It's the same reason that Tony Parker got mvp hype this year. Tony ****ing Parker. Lmfao.

Tony ****ing Parker. If that doesn't wake you up to the fact that something is terribly wrong, nothing ever will.

:applause:

Real talk.

[chazzy]

Dwight was my pick for 2011 MVP

[PJR]

2005 Steve Nash is the worse MVP winner in history, and it's not even close.

[chazzy]

2005 Steve Nash is the worse MVP winner in history, and it's not even close.
Nah. At least the Suns had a massive turnaround offensively (21st to one of the greatest ever) by adding Nash. He was the major reason behind their elite attribute.

[Dengness9]

You can tell a Lebron dick rider when they say shit like "Rose didn't even deserve to be in the conversation...."

Thats a load of shit.

Lebron does everything better....blah blah blah..... He did everything better besides leading his team to less wins than the Rose-led Bulls in the regular season, which is what the MVP award is for, THE REGULAR SEASON.

Amateur bandwagon Heat bitches don't even know its a regular season award, how pathetic.

Rose had a great season and deserved MVP as much any other candidate. Nothing of what i just said is irrational or an overreaction.

This isn't like Malone winning MVP over Jordan. Jordan was clearly the GOAT and had won 4-5 titles by then and his team had the most regular season wins.

Rose's team had more wins than Miami and Lebron's 2 teammates were by far better than Rose's best two teammates.

[KyleKong]

Dwight Howard was robbed.

[Dengness9]

Dwight was my pick for 2011 MVP


4th or 5th seeded team can't really have the MVP in most peoples opinions.

[Bucket_Nakedz]

omg roses mvp is much more sweeter now because of the doucheness that is dwight howard. im so glad that fake ass clown didn't even win it. he doesn't deserve to be in the class of mvps. derrick rose earned that mvp more than lebron earned his two rings.

[Bucket_Nakedz]

Replace Rose with 'Bron and the Bulls win the Championship, and this is coming from a guy who doesn't particularly like Lebron.
:hammerhead:

i don't think u understand how difficult rose had it. lebron has the luxury of having a really good ball handlers in wade, chalmers and cole that can actually penetrate to the paint, while having spot 3 point shooters in battier, miller, jones and now allen.

the bulls had no one that could handle the ball effectively other than rose. no one

[SCdac]

If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.

Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).

In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.

For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.

Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

Moses '83

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

Howard '11

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).

[ShaqAttack3234]

If Howard had won MVP he would have been the first player to do it while averaging less than 2 assists per game in about 30 years, when Moses Malone won back-to-back MVP's.

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.


Also, if Howard had won it scoring under 23 points a game, he'd be grouped only with older Magic and Nash (all time greats at running a team), and a handful of players from the 50's / 60's / 70's (Walton, Russell, Cousy, etc).

Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.


In other words, Howard's particular combination of points (22.9) and assists (1.4) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it never happens.

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.


For basketball reasons, in terms of overall production and MVP's being mainly offensive players, I can see why. He was definitely a candidate in 2011, he improved his offense combined with his DPOY defense, but he didn't deserve to actually win it relative to Rose's stellar season. Lebron I think was also more deserving than Howard, Lebron-Rose is more of a debate IMO.

As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.


Just for the sake of comparison, here's a similar player in Moses winning it compared to when Howard "should have won it" according to some.

Moses '83

24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.0 bpg, 50.1 FG%, 76.1 FT%, 3.4 topg, 37.5 mpg

Philly won 65 games after getting Malone from the Rockets (then won the championship).

Howard '11

22.9 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.4 bpg, 59.3 FG%, 59.6 FT%, 3.6 topg, 37.6 mpg

Magic won 52 games despite Howard's improvement, which was a drop off from the previous two 59-win seasons when Dwight was less of a scorer (then they lost in the first round).

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

[nathanjizzle]

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

if you want to look at like this, Rose shot 44.5% making him one of only two MVPs in the last 40 years to shoot under 45%, along with Iverson who shot 42% in 2001.

In fact, in the last 50 seasons, those 2 and Bill Russell in 1965 are the only 3 MVPs who have shot under 45% and of course when Russell did it, the league average for FG% was just 42.6%, and Russell of course wasn't known primarily for scoring, just like a certain Orlando Magic center was known first and foremost for his defense and rebounding.



Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.



And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.



As far as offensive production, well, since arbitrary numbers are the theme, here's some.

In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%)
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%)
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%)
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%)
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%)
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%)
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%)

Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.



What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

[Psycho]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose.

Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz :sleeping

[HoopsFanNumero1]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.

Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.

[nathanjizzle]

And this thread is also not about playing against the top teams.:facepalm Doesn't matter if Lebron played better against the Raptors or Bucks. He averaged more than Rose. Lebron had better stats and was a flat out better player. He was/is/and will always be better than Rose. He should have won the MVP.
Lerbon was a better passer, rebounder, scorer and defender than Rose.

Lebron >>>>>>>> Rose any way you look at it.
If you're suggesting that the Bulls >> the Heat in the RS, then I'd agree with you. Replace Rose with Lebron on that Bulls team and they win the title.

rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.

[nathanjizzle]

Well that's a rather arbitrary selection of games and arbitrary selection of stats for said arbitrarily selected games. Gotta try harder than that jizz :sleeping

you can do them against the top 7 6 5 4, rose will still be better than lebrons. these are real telling stats to why rose was chosen as mvp.

[nathanjizzle]

Stop spamming that shit all over the boards.

im only spreading the truth, any anti rose mvp thread is going to have those stats posted. deal with it.

[Peteballa]

Who gives a shit. MVP is such an arbitrary award. There's no real system for how it works. Rose had an incredible season, just let it be. And yes, this is a Heat fan saying this. Also, try and remember that the Bulls were an afterthought, and the Heat were being talked about as if they were going to go 73-9. I'm not saying Rose SHOULD have been the MVP - I honestly don't know who should have been, it's a very debatable argument between Rose-Howard-LeBron-Dirk; however, it's not a travesty that he got it.

[Jameerthefear]

against the top 8 teams in the nba that season

rose 28 points 7 assist, bulls winning record + bulls winning all 12 of there last games (against the elite teams)

lebron 26 points 7 assist, heat losing record + heat losing most of there last 9 games.

now tell me lebron should have won over rose. he should have becuase he had a better fg percentage and more rbs but didnt win games? doesnt make sense.
His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

[poido123]

:rolleyes:

[nathanjizzle]

His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

"im fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him."

:confusedshrug: he had 3 players ahead of rose who rosed performed better than. in reality dwight is the only debatable player that season against rose.

[Psycho]

His whole post was about Dwight and you respond with something about Lebron...

Better hit those books and turn off the Naruto son, you got those SATs coming up.

[aj1987]

rose played and carried his team against real competition, he showed up in big moments. cant say the same for lebron. rose played better than lebron in 2011, deal with it. if people could even remember back to 2011, thats the year lebron was being ridiculed for passing on game deciding shots.
As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. Rose was nothing special at all. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It's hilarious that people actually think rose deserved this award. Almost as funny as people thinking lebron deserved it. He was like the 4th best candidate that year. Dwight ****ing destroyed the league that year it is a travesty that he did NOT receive it. Rose did not deserve the award at all, Dwight didn't have anyone half as good as Noah (who cares if he missed 40 games?). Plus, rose ha the luxury of playing 0 defense. Dwight WAS the defense and carried a huge offensive load and rebounding load. Dwight was robbed like he was in south side Chicago

[thabisyo]

Your MVP, warming up the bench like a scrub and loving it

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/rose-9-500x423.jpg

[SCdac]

So? Moses doing it 3 times proves there are exceptions. Why can't Howard be one of them?

Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).

As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.



Pretty arbitrary number picking 23 ppg, especially since Howard was at 22.9. 0.4 less than Duncan's 23.3 when he got his second MVP in 2003.

Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).

If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.


But here's another one for Rose. His 4.1 rpg are the 3rd lowest ever in an NBA season with only 2001 Iverson(3.8 rpg) and 2005 Nash(3.3 rpg) averaging fewer.

In fact, those 3 seasons along with Nash in 2006 and Cousy in 1957 are the only 5 in NBA history where the MVP has averaged fewer than 5 rpg.

And Rose's combination of FG%(44.5) and rpg(4.1) rarely results in an MVP. Actually, it only has one other time with Iverson in 2011.


I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.

The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.

Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.


In the post-merger era, Howard's 2011 season is one of only 8 where a player has averaged at least 22 ppg and shot at least 59%. Here's the complete list.

1994 Shaq (29.3 ppg, 59.9 FG%) 20 FGA / 2 APG
1987 McHale (26.1 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 3 APG
1990 Barkley (25.2 ppg, 60.0 FG%) 15 FGA / 4 APG
1980 Kareem (24.8 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 17 FGA / 5 APG
1987 Barkley (23.0 ppg, 59.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 5 APG
2011 Dwight (22.9 ppg, 59.3 FG%) 13 FGA / 1 APG
2005 Shaq (22.9 ppg, 60.1 FG%) 15 FGA / 3 APG
1988 McHale (22.6 ppg, 60.4 FG%) 14 FGA / 3 APG

I added Field Goal Attempts and Assists Per game, to further get my point across

If you ask me, Dwight stands out in this list, despite his efficient, 22+ scoring.

I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.

I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.


Not many players have scored as much as Howard did and shot the percentage he did. And the only other season where a player did that with at least 14 rpg like Howard was Barkley in 1987.

Lebron is tough because he was probably still the best player in the game, but he didn't have a great season by his standards, and his standards in other seasons shouldn't be a factor in most valuable player of a particular year, unfortunately, the voters often disagree. And considering Miami's expectations the 58 wins hurt, though they're explainable as part of their adjustment period since they started 9-8 and similarly, when Miami took off as a team, Lebron's individual play took off after a slow start.

I'm fine with either Dwight or Lebron, though I lean towards Dwight. Dirk is up there as well, imo considering Dallas won 57 games despite going just 2-7 without him.

What's your point? That Moses was more dominant than Dwight because we know that. He was also unquestionably more dominant than Rose and would have ran away with the MVP had he had that same '83 season in 2011.

That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses doing it 3 times out of nearly 60 MVP's proves that there are very rare exceptions, and that's not even mentioning Moses was a better player (but their similarities makes the comparison worth noting).

Yeah, but while Moses was the better player overall, it's important to note that Dwight proved to be far more of a defensive anchor and better defender, and that's largely what sets Dwight apart(when healthy) in the current league.


As for Rose's shooting, nobody notices his .45% shooting because 20+ other MVP winners have won it while shooting under .50% in general. It's more common.

Pretty big difference between 45% and 50%.

It would be the same as me saying nobody notices Howard's 23 ppg because many MVPs have been under 25 ppg

Post-merger, 15 of the 37 MVPs have been under 25 ppg to be exact. And many of the MVPs pre-merger, in fact, out of 21 MVPs pre-merger, 11 were below 25 ppg.


Eh, Duncan was clearly more of "MVP of the league" despite their ppg being similar, for reasons I'm sure don't need to be explained. Duncan at times was like a low-post quarterback out there, Howard's passing game is more pedestrian and in the same ball park as a Jermaine Oneal or Amare Stoudemire, who at their best I wouldn't consider MVP's based on offense only (we know Dwight is better defensively).

Agreed, I was just pointing out that their scoring averages were very similar.


If you consider 2 apg and 23 ppg (for any position) among MVP's (only) arbitrary numbers, that's your opinion. They're basic statistics, not some unnecessarily advanced number. Without calculating the averages of MVP's the last 15-20 years (the kind of league Dwight plays in), I'd venture to say they top or meet those two averages.

I meant 23 ppg is an arbitrary number for a cut off point.


I'd argue Rebounds from your PG are much less important than assists from your franchise/MVP big man. Thoughts? If anything, I think your numbers are a bit more arbitrary than mine are (according to you) but fair enough.

Well, if you mean your star big man passing well is more important your point guard rebounding, I agree, though assist numbers themselves can be especially deceptive with big men. Though in Dwight's case, he wasn't a very good passer.


The fact that Rose (a PG) falls in line with Nash and Iverson's and other guards makes sense, because none of them need to be proficient rebounders for them to be convincing winners, superstars, or MVP's.

But it does bring to mind how view point guards have actually been MVP, well, Iverson was technically a SG, though as a 6'0" player who had to guard opposing PGs more often than not, this is largely irrelevant.

And wouldn't you agree it's fair to say that all 3 are near the bottom as far as defensive impact? Nash being bad, Iverson being hit or miss and Rose being average for his position, imo.


Dwight, I'd argue, would be a much better player if he had better court vision in passing game ala Duncan or even somebody a step or two down like Marc Gasol. And Howard's lack of that natural playmaking abilities is compounded by his high turnovers. IDK about 2011, but last season the league average was 2.6 assists per game I believe, higher than DH's career average.

I agree, I remember saying in 2011 that the one thing I was really looking for him to improve on was his passing.


I know he's a great dunker, can clean up around the basket, and showed improved moves (and range, somewhat) that season, but he's not an out of this world offensive player and I don't think his scoring was separated enough from other high scoring bigs on playoff teams that season (Dirk, Amare). Howard's a finisher/powerful player, who's improved greatly, but a finisher by nature, imo.

I agree, but what sets him apart was not his offense, but his defense, as well as the 14 rpg. The 23 ppg on 59% is a bonus, and pretty damn productive despite the low assists/high turnovers.


I added those stats, because it shows how much more they are complete offensive players, demand/take more shots, and have an offense revolved around them.

No doubt about it. Kareem, Shaq, McHale and Barkley are on the short list of greatest offensive PF/Cs ever.


That's exactly the point, Dwight is like a lesser version of Moses Malone while also being not as MVP-worthy (to the majority of voters) as peak 2011 Rose, yet it's hilarious when people think Howard on his 52-win team got robbed, when he's really just happens to be the best big in a league with no real elite bigs. He scores alot taking relatively few shots... The point is, his MVP would have stood out more than Rose's. If you don't agree, I can respect that. I could see it going to Lebron. Many people and players were taken aback by Rose's great season, and while I agree some of it's for a media-story, his season was definitely sick and filled with highlight moments and the stats back it all up.

Howard probably would stand out more, but it'd be due to his team's relatively low win total, imo. I'm simply talking about my personal opinion on who was the better player, made the bigger impact on the court and was more valuable to their team. I personally believe Howard is the answer for all 3.

[nathanjizzle]

As I said, the Bulls > Heat in the RS. Rose was nothing special at all. Even then, Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, with Lebron averaging considerably more than Rose. Rose was good, but not MVP good. If Rose played better than Lebron, he would've averaged more than Lebron or at the very least, played better defense. Oh wait, Rose doesn't know what defense is. Rose is not even close to being on Lebron's level. He's a shot jacking mental midget. Replace Lebron and Rose on the 2011 squads, Bulls win 68+ and the ring.
2011 Lebron >>>>>> Rose in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense.

rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn:roll: yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."



lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.

ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh

[Pushxx]

Dwight should have won it that year.

[Unbiased_one]

Media always gets tired of giving the MVP trophy to the same guy. If they didn't, Jordan would have won every year in the 90s

Jordan should have won 7 in the 90s. He didn't play for 3 years.

[Mr Exlax]

some people say Dwight shoulda won too.


I am one of those people. He got the best results with the least amount of help. Bulls and Heat would've made the playoffs that year without Rose and LeBron. Magic would've been a lottery team without Dwight. Then those numbers he was putting up were unmatched by anybody. The dominance on both ends of the floor. Shit pisses me off all over again.

[BoutPractice]

It was a tough year to pick an MVP.

Statistically, without taking all the context and narrative into account, LeBron was the "normal" choice. A player that averages 27, 7.5 and 7 on 51% shooting with his team winning 58 games (11 more wins than the previous year, but more importantly, the team that played was with the year before had 42 less wins) should be a relatively uncontroversial choice for MVP. However, LeBron had already won 2 in a row, was underachieving by his own standards, and needed to be "punished" by the media for his actions, so not giving him the trophy made sense... but it's clear, looking at it as objectively as possible, that any other player than LeBron, with the same stats and same record, would have won it.

Dwight had the stats, but was handicapped by a 50 win record. Interestingly, he would've been the second MVP in four years to lose in the first round. Dirk had the record (as someone pointed out the Mavs had the best record in the league when he was healthy), but was having a below average statistical regular season by his standards due to injury... Dirk was undoubtedly the playoffs MVP and the player that made the biggest mark on the 2011 season in the end, but his regular season was nothing spectacular for MVP standards.

[aj1987]

rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn:roll: yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."



lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.

ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh
The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense. The Bulls were down in all those games because of Rose's shot jacking. He put them in the hole in the first place. If he played like a proper PG, they wouldn't even have needed all those 4th quarter heroics. 44% for the field? Let not even talk about his defense. As I said, Rose isn't anything special. Put him on a team which is not a defensive powerhouse, he's be a glorified Jennings. Also, the Heat didn't gel properly during the '11 season and yet they won 58 games and went to the Finals.

And for the millionth time, Lebron was a better scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender. The Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, thanks to Thibs and the defense, not Rose. Lebron averaged more than Rose and was a better player on a 58 win team and should've been the MVP. If not Lebron, DH deserved it more than Rose as well. The 2011 MVP award is the biggest sports gaffe EVER.

Oh yeah, remember the Heat winning 14 of 17 after that incident?

Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.

[Graviton]

Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.

Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:

[Psycho]

Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:

Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh? :lol

Westbrook is a cripple

[Graviton]

Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh? :lol

Westbrook is a cripple
My favorite player is Wilt actually, so I am not insecure about PER, unlike Perkins fans such as yourself. :cheers:

[SilkkTheShocker]

All I remember is him shooting 6% with LeGod guarding him :oldlol:

[Frozen1]

Lebron stats in 2011 - 26.7 - 7 -7.5 on 51% FG
Wade stats in 2011 - 25.5-4.6-6.4 on 50% FG

It was the decision year, and lebron could not even separate himself that much from his teamate. Heat underachieved, could not beat a top team in a regular season with a lot of drama ("There were a couple guys crying in the locker room").

No way lebron would have won MVP that year, even if he had the best stats and was the best player. Rose was a new guy and his team won 60+ games, so even if undeserving, he was the right guy to win the mvp by the media standards.

[aj1987]

Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:

By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:
25% is what Lebron shot in the 4th, in the Finals. As I said before, I don't care much for Lebron at all. He was a passive bitch and cost Wade a ring and a FMVP. Still, Lebron deserved the MVP that year over Rose.

[Graviton]

25% is what Lebron shot in the 4th, in the Finals. As I said before, I don't care much for Lebron at all. He was a passive bitch and cost Wade a ring and a FMVP. Still, Lebron deserved the MVP that year over Rose.
Howard maybe, not Lebron.

Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.

Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.

Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

Howard maybe, not Lebron.

Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.

Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.

Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:
I'm actually a bit conflicted when it comes to DH and Lebron. I wouldn't care if he won it. But Rose winning it was horseshit.

[nathanjizzle]

The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense. The Bulls were down in all those games because of Rose's shot jacking. He put them in the hole in the first place. If he played like a proper PG, they wouldn't even have needed all those 4th quarter heroics. 44% for the field? Let not even talk about his defense. As I said, Rose isn't anything special. Put him on a team which is not a defensive powerhouse, he's be a glorified Jennings. Also, the Heat didn't gel properly during the '11 season and yet they won 58 games and went to the Finals.


right, thats why rose has this kind of impact on his team

"here are the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.

2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7

2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6


2012-2013 (no rose)
5-12"


but but its all thibs and the bulls defense:facepalm
the clear indicator of you not knowing what you are talking about is the fact you said "rose wasnt anything special that season" :facepalm you clearly dont know what you are talking about. youre not even providing any points superseding my stats that i have given you. you keep reverting back to lebrons overall stats, and then i keep telling you he has a losing record against elite teams but you dont want to accept that? youre an idiot.

[Kblaze8855]

The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense.


The Bulls from 2010 to now have a 64.4 win pace in games Derrick Rose plays. 45 or 46 win pace when he doesnt. They played at a 62 win pace with Noah and rose....63 with Rose and no Noah the year Noah missed half the year. They won 62 with Boozer/Noah combining to miss like 70 games. They went 33-7 with Rose the next year and were average without him.

The defense/coach/supporting cast is the reason they win.

But no Rose...they go from #1 to being average.

They go from....a 67.65 win pace with Rose in 2012.

Win 45 without him the next year. They win at a 60-70 win pace even with injuries to Noah, Boozer, and so on when Rose is there. Hes out....they cant maintain.

We are talking a 20+ win difference maker.

But hes a problem due to shooting percentages....

Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?

Enlighten me.

[aj1987]

right, thats why rose has this kind of impact on his team

"here are the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.

2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7

2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6


2012-2013 (no rose)
5-12"


but but its all thibs and the bulls defense:facepalm
the clear indicator of you not knowing what you are talking about is the fact you said "rose wasnt anything special that season" :facepalm you clearly dont know what you are talking about. youre not even providing any points superseding my stats that i have given you. you keep reverting back to lebrons overall stats, and then i keep telling you he has a losing record against elite teams but you dont want to accept that? youre an idiot.
Hey dumbass, the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA in 2011 and were 11th offensively. They were really good defensively. Guess what's the one thing that Rose can't do at all? PLAY DEFENSE. Of course, the Bulls are going to be better with Rose. He is a shot jacker, but he can score. They do not have a reliable scorer other than Rose and they need him for his scoring. Replace the mental midget with Lebron and they win over 68 games that year. Hell, replace Rose with any other good scorer and they win over 66 games.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2011.html
I'd like to see Rose on a team like the Bucks. He's be nothing more than a rich man's version of Brandon Jennings. The fact is Lebron had the best stats in the NBA on a 58 win team and as Gravitron pointed out, DH was a better MVP candidate than Srubrick Rose.

[aj1987]

Enlighten me.
No need to. Just replace him with a good scorer. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. in place of Rose on the 2011 Bulls team would've led them to over 66 wins. Lebron or Wade or Kobe would've won the Bulls their first ring since MJ.

[Graviton]

No need to. Just replace him with a good scorer. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. in place of Rose on the 2011 Bulls team would've led them to over 66 wins. Lebron or Wade or Kobe would've won the Bulls their first ring since MJ.
You just completely ignored his question and started deflecting to some irrelevant hypothetical fantasy territory. :oldlol:

"Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?"

How old are you? Your debating skills, use of logic and critical thinking to form objective conclusions based on actual facts/evidence is non existent. :facepalm

[kshutts1]

I thought this was 2013? Are you guys really THAT bored? Wow.

[aj1987]

You just completely ignored his question and started deflecting to some irrelevant hypothetical fantasy territory. :oldlol:

"Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?"

How old are you? Your debating skills, use of logic and critical thinking to form objective conclusions based on actual facts/evidence is non existent. :facepalm
Retard, re-read my post. The only thing the Bulls needed was a decent scorer. And hence,..:facepalm

Since you might be a little slow, let me explain in detail. The Bulls were tremendous defensively in 2011. The only thing they needed was a scorer, who could score at an average clip. That's exactly what Rose did. He was a scored and he did it at an average clip (25 on 44%). The Bulls lost because they were missing the 25PPG that Rose delivered. Is that so hard to figure out? It's not like they traded Rose. He was hurt and no one replaced him. They didn't have anyone who could step up enough offensively. And hence, replace Rose with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc (a good scorer). they would do better. I don't expect a Chuckbrick fan to understand this though.

[Graviton]

Retard, re-read my post. The only thing the Bulls needed was a decent scorer. And hence,..:facepalm

Since you might be a little slow, let me explain in detail. The Bulls were tremendous defensively in 2011. The only thing they needed was a scorer, who could score at an average clip. That's exactly what Rose did. He was a scored and he did it at an average clip (25 on 44%). The Bulls lost because they were missing the 25PPG that Rose delivered. Is that so hard to figure out? It's not like they traded Rose. He was hurt and no one replaced him. They didn't have anyone who could step up enough offensively. And hence, replace Rose with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc (a good scorer). they would do better. I don't expect a Chuckbrick fan to understand this though.
You seem like a very mature and level headed boy, I am sure you have many friends in real life that discuss lot of interesting topics with you.

Carry on.

[aj1987]

You seem like a very mature and level headed boy, I am sure you have many friends in real life that discuss lot of interesting topics with you.

Carry on.
Yes I do and yes we do. Have a good day.

[Legends66NBA7]

It's not a travesty, enough already. It's been beaten to death and he was a top candidate that year to grab it.

[LAZERUSS]

I certainly didn't lose any sleep over it when he won it.

To be honest, there have been many MVPs who were probably questionable, and many that went to players who would not be considered the best player in the game, too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Howard maybe, not Lebron.

Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.

Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.

Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:
Totally gets it.

[S13M]

Kobe in '08 and Nash in '06 were worse

[Lakers2877]

Howard maybe, not Lebron.

Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.

Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.

Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:
" he has good teammates " is without a doubt the worst argument possible. People punish players for being on good teams. Its almost like they would br better off playing on bad teams. Such a ridiculous argument

[ArbitraryWater]

2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...

You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...

In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.

[chazzy]

2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...

You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...

In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.
Dirk was not in serious MVP discussions. People say he was the best that year because of his epic playoff run, but if you look at his regular season in a vaccuum, it didn't really stand out. He finished 6th in MVP voting without a single 1st place vote for a reason. Personally I was most impressed with Dwight, but his team's win total didn't match historically with the trend of the award. Lebron declined all around from the previous year and was missed a TON of game winners as well. A bit disappointing relative to his previous two seasons, especially with the expectations of the Heat going into the year and the result being 2nd place in their conference. If you judge it based on the historical trend of the MVP, Rose winning it is not surprising at all. Unsuspecting, great numbers, #1 seed overall.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Dirk was not in serious MVP discussions. People say he was the best that year because of his epic playoff run, but if you look at his regular season in a vaccuum, it didn't really stand out. He finished 6th in MVP voting without a single 1st place vote for a reason. Personally I was most impressed with Dwight, but his team's win total didn't match historically with the trend of the award. Lebron declined all around from the previous year and was missed a TON of game winners as well. A bit disappointing relative to his previous two seasons, especially with the expectations of the Heat going into the year and the result being 2nd place in their conference. If you judge it based on the historical trend of the MVP, Rose winning it is not surprising at all. Unsuspecting, great numbers, #1 seed overall.

Yeah, I remember this. Dwight had a chance of winning over him but LeBron and Dirk not so much.

[Undisputed]

Travesty to anyone not a Bulls fan. Yet, it remains history. Eat it.

[SpecialQue]

2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...

You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...

In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.

Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?

[navy]

It wasnt. Rose was the best player on the best team.

He wasnt a top 5 player though, but it happens.

[nathanjizzle]

It wasnt. Rose was the best player on the best team.

He wasnt a top 5 player though, but it happens.

this comment is ignorant. derrick rose made the bulls the best team, he just wasnt "the best player on best team":facepalm i guess jordan only won mvps because he was the best player on the best team right?

arguing a "top 5 player" accounts for prior seasons. so in concensus thinking in 2011 top 5 players would be lebron duncan kobe dirk and who ever else. But the player that played the best that season, rose was top 2, he just played better than everyone else whether you believe it or not, the only person you can argue is dwight really.

at the end of the day, in reality, he won the mvp because he out performed everyone. you making statements otherwise almost 4 years removed is just false and ignorant.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Not a travesty. It was a weak year for the MVP...I would've gone Dwight but D-rose winning it wasn't that bad.

[Dave3]

Why do people still make these threads? LeBron had no case for MVP in 2011. If you're going to complain, at least do it with a little historical accuracy and talk about Howard maybe even deserving it, and even that's a debatable point. Calling it a "travesty" though is straight up trolling.

[Pointguard]

Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?
Its a contest.

[Pointguard]

this comment is ignorant. derrick rose made the bulls the best team, he just wasnt "the best player on best team":facepalm
Exactly. Look at how all the best players played when they should have been the best team, when they were in Rose's situation with a new team. Lebron/Wade/Bosh a super team, Kobe/DH/Nash a super team, CP3/Blake/Crawford/DJ a super team, Durant/Brook/Baka a super team. The biggest difference - outside of the injuries, experience, age or knowing each other which all worked against Rose was that Rose made his team the best team with the best record. Not one of them overachieved.


he just played better than everyone else whether you believe it or not, the only person you can argue is dwight really.

at the end of the day, in reality, he won the mvp because he out performed everyone. you making statements otherwise almost 4 years removed is just false and ignorant.
Well said again. Howard had two teams, lost the first one because the GM thought they were gutless. Nobody will win the MVP of two teams and the GM thinking one of the teams was gutless and the second team just wasn't good. And neither was Howard when it counted most. NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN and rightfully so.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?

Felt like pointed out the 4-man race it was/should have been... Maybe get some mentions on other years where it's been that close, or at least a 3-headed duel.

@ chazzy: I'm aware Dirk wasn't in the talks at the time... Well aware. I just think it's unfair.

These numbers present a HUGE argument:

Mavericks were 57-25 for the season, good for 4th best record and 3rd in the West.

Dallas was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk. That record with him healthy would've been good for BEST in the NBA.

[Pointguard]

Felt like pointed out the 4-man race it was/should have been... Maybe get some mentions on other years where it's been that close, or at least a 3-headed duel.

@ chazzy: I'm aware Dirk wasn't in the talks at the time... Well aware. I just think it's unfair.

These numbers present a HUGE argument:

Mavericks were 57-25 for the season, good for 4th best record and 3rd in the West.

Dallas was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk. That record with him healthy would've been good for BEST in the NBA.

They don't present a huge argument at all.

They were on a road trip against 6 teams that beat them at home WITH Dirk! Plus they lost their number 2 scorer to further unbalance the team. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't go through major problems without their top two scorers on the road. Its a joke to bring it up.

You have to at least get one first place vote to really be considered. If you don't get one vote then you have to chalk it up to just not knowing how the system works. Rose had over 110 first place votes and nobody else got five. Most people here on this board knew it. The only travesty is that literate fans don't know how it works. Different if it was close like most years - but it wasn't.

[theaussieguy]

" he has good teammates " is without a doubt the worst argument possible. People punish players for being on good teams. Its almost like they would br better off playing on bad teams. Such a ridiculous argument

way to take it out of context, Rose had worse teamates and managed to get more wins than Lebron with 2 other all star players. Hows that so hard to understand? You need to think about what MVP actually means.

[imdaman99]

Why do people still make these threads? LeBron had no case for MVP in 2011. If you're going to complain, at least do it with a little historical accuracy and talk about Howard maybe even deserving it, and even that's a debatable point. Calling it a "travesty" though is straight up trolling.
People still make threads like this but this one is from last year and was bumped by an insecure bored with nothing more going on in his life branstan. I am sure there are a lot of those. You better believe they will troll Durant for the rest of his career because he is another one that won 1 over him. Rose was easily the best player on the team that had the best regular season, but they still lose sleep over it :facepalm

[S13M]

Durant's MVP was even bigger travesty. But on the bright side players who have stolen the MVP from the King tend to get injured with crippling injuries. Karma's a bitch.

[ArbitraryWater]

They don't present a huge argument at all.

They were on a road trip against 6 teams that beat them at home WITH Dirk! Plus they lost their number 2 scorer to further unbalance the team. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't go through major problems without their top two scorers on the road. Its a joke to bring it up.

You have to at least get one first place vote to really be considered. If you don't get one vote then you have to chalk it up to just not knowing how the system works. Rose had over 110 first place votes and nobody else got five. Most people here on this board knew it. The only travesty is that literate fans don't know how it works. Different if it was close like most years - but it wasn't.

Why do you think Rose is always brought up, then?

Mavericks played without Butler nearly their entire season... That would only make Dirk's case bigger.

BTW, stop over exceggerating their opponents you damn liar.

They lost to the Raptors at HOME, Spurs at HOME, the damn Bucks, beat the Cavaliers, beat the Blazers at HOME, lost to the Thunder at HOME, Magic at HOME, Pacers, Spurs....

5 Home games and 4 Road games.

Then lost with getting-in-shape Dirk at Memphis AND Detroit, even though Dirk dropped 32 on 59%....Loss. Had 2 more nights shooting in the 30's, just further proving he wasn't all there yet.

The simple fact that a healthy Dirk owned the best record in the league is a big argument, you know it and you hate it.

So you don't really know shit. You know which people about this? Trolls.

And why bring up "beat them at home WITH DIRK" Wtf is that supposed to prove? This is Basketball, dude... Just last year OKC whopped Heat in Miami, then Miami whopped OKC in Oklahoma.. A 2-game sample doesn't present an argument. You would have someting if teams play each other ten times a year and they won all games with Dirk. But one different game? Funny.

[ballinhun8]

^^^ case in point


Insecure Bron stans bumping year old threads of a three year old topic.


GET A LIFE!!

[NumberSix]

It wasnt. Rose was the best player on the best team.

He wasnt a top 5 player though, but it happens.
So, Tony Parker should have won the 2014 MVP, not Durant, right? :confusedshrug:

[hitmanyr2k]

Rose improved tremendously that year, was a consummate teammate, and he took over and won games in the end that the Bulls should have lost. With that said, 22 year old 3rd year players aren't supposed to be winning MVP. That said more about the state of the league at the time than it did Rose. Any star could have taken it that year if they had performed to expectations.

If Lebron hadn't lead his team to multiple losing streaks with teammates crying in the lockerroom, getting beat by the elite teams, while constantly faltering in the clutch the whole season maybe he could have been MVP.

If Dirk hadn't gone down with injury and the Mavs didn't cave down the stretch perhaps he could have been MVP.

If Dwight Howard showed up in 4th qtrs and lead his teams to wins instead of disappearing all the time and for once put up an entire season of dominance (like he did in February of that season) maybe he could have been MVP.

Kobe's Lakers also went on multiple losing streaks throughout the season and finished weak.

So when it was all said and done, all of the "vets" f***ed up or had some kind of misfortune and rolled out the red carpet to Rose who's team was missing key players throughout the season but still hadn't lost more than 2 games in a row, constantly beat all of the elite teams in the league with Rose putting up great performances on nationally televised games. Don't blame Rose for taking advantage of a weak era.

[Pointguard]

Why do you think Rose is always brought up, then?
if Rose says he doesn't recruit players this board lights up. Haters gonna hate. That's what you do. Why are you asking me to explain your existence?


Mavericks played without Butler nearly their entire season... That would only make Dirk's case bigger.
There first has to be a case. 22 and 7 is a case for an all second team.


BTW, stop over exceggerating their opponents you damn liar.
[/quote]
Am I a liar or are you illiterate. I just said they beat Dallas with Dirk. My bad that Dallas lost to the Bucks and Raptors with Dirk. Sorry no matter what you think most teams were going to lose to OKC, SAS twice, Memphis on the road, and Orlando when fresh off of losing their top two scorers. It's not rocket science. By the time they could adjust any the schedule got tougher.



Then lost with getting-in-shape Dirk at Memphis AND Detroit, even though Dirk dropped 32 on 59%....Loss. Had 2 more nights shooting in the 30's, just further proving he wasn't all there yet.
Oh right, more violins!!!



So you don't really know shit. You know which people about this? Trolls. Are you like a fuzzy troll with real big eyes???


And why bring up "beat them at home WITH DIRK" Wtf is that supposed to prove? This is Basketball, dude... Just last year OKC whopped Heat in Miami, then Miami whopped OKC in Oklahoma.. A 2-game sample doesn't present an argument. You would have someting if teams play each other ten times a year and they won all games with Dirk. But one different game? Funny.
Ugh I brought that up to highlight the fact that Dallas had trouble with those teams With Dirk. The team was built around Dirk and would have trouble adapting without him on a minutes notice and then they lost their second option. So they are down to their third option playing teams that beat them with the first option.

It's not that hard of concept to understand. Unless hater ism overwhelms you

[ballinhun8]

Rose improved tremendously that year, was a consummate teammate, and he took over and won games in the end that the Bulls should have lost. With that said, 22 year old 3rd year players aren't supposed to be winning MVP. That said more about the state of the league at the time than it did Rose. Any star could have taken it that year if they had performed to expectations.

If Lebron hadn't lead his team to multiple losing streaks with teammates crying in the lockerroom, getting beat by the elite teams, while constantly faltering in the clutch the whole season maybe he could have been MVP.

If Dirk hadn't gone down with injury and the Mavs didn't cave down the stretch perhaps he could have been MVP.

If Dwight Howard showed up in 4th qtrs and lead his teams to wins instead of disappearing all the time and for once put up an entire season of dominance (like he did in February of that season) maybe he could have been MVP.

Kobe's Lakers also went on multiple losing streaks throughout the season and finished weak.

So when it was all said and done, all of the "vets" f***ed up or had some kind of misfortune and rolled out the red carpet to Rose who's team was missing key players throughout the season but still hadn't lost more than 2 games in a row, constantly beat all of the elite teams in the league with Rose putting up great performances on nationally televised games. Don't blame Rose for taking advantage of a weak era.


This.


People are not taking anything with context here.

I mean Rose was in the perfect MVP scenario for the year. And like you said, he did it in primetime when everyone was watching. Remember folks, this is a Regular Season award. And Rose was the best case.

Beat the Heat three times and played well in each. Remember the duel against Wade in Chicago.

Beat the Spurs the night before ASG week on national TV and dropped 40+.

Beat the Magic during the end of the year on national TV when Dwight got himself foolishly suspended.

Beat the Knicks in MSG with some crazy dunks in the game.

Beat the Mavs at home in a primetime game as well.

I mean the chips fell into place for Rose and he was peaking at the tight time. I believe the Bulls were hovering around .500 until mid December. Then, like he did much of the season, he played a great game on national TV and beat Kobe in Chicago with some crazy shots in the game.

Rose MVP makes sense in the year it came in.

Case closed.

[ArbitraryWater]

^^^ case in point


Insecure Bron stans bumping year old threads of a three year old topic.


GET A LIFE!!

This is more about me letting people know how close it was and that Dirk deserved it aswell :cheers:

Insecure Rose stans smh :facepalm

[SamuraiSWISH]

Rose was the 6th best player in 2011

Dwight, LeBron, Wade, Kobe, and Dirk were better basketball players. We get it.

But in terms of context for the award, Derrick had the best case for it. LeBron / Wade put up near identitcal numbers. Dwight didn't lead his team to as many wins, Kobe was showing age, and Dirk was injured.

What's so blasphemous about Derrick's 2011 MVP? He took a team of defensive scrubs to 62 wins putting up 25 ppg 8 apg for a team that missed 2 of their other 3 best players for most of the season. He was literally their only option offensively to score, or create. He outperformed everyone else against the league's best teams.

Prime LeBron, and Wade ... featuring prime Bosh couldn't even muster up 60+ wins. That's IMPRESSIVE.

[Smoke117]

Rose was the 6th best player in 2011

Dwight, LeBron, Wade, Kobe, and Dirk were better basketball players. We get it.

But in terms of context for the award, Derrick had the best case for it. LeBron / Wade put up near identitcal numbers. Dwight didn't lead his team to as many wins, Kobe was showing age, and Dirk was injured.

What's so blasphemous about Derrick's 2011 MVP? He took a team of defensive scrubs to 62 wins putting up 25 ppg 8 apg for a team that missed 2 of their other 3 best players for most of the season. He was literally their only option offensively to score, or create. He outperformed everyone else against the league's best teams.

Prime LeBron, and Wade ... featuring prime Bosh couldn't even muster up 60+ wins. That's IMPRESSIVE.

No he didn't. The Bulls won primarily with defense and he had one of the lowest impacts on the team in regards to that. You can't be the MVP of the league when you aren't even important as far as the teams identity and what makes the team so good.

[PsychoBe]

No he didn't. The Bulls won primarily with defense and he had one of the lowest impacts on the team in regards to that. You can't be the MVP of the league when you aren't even important as far as the teams identity and what makes the team so good.

this guy says the only player that season to be in the top 10 of points and assists didn't have any impact :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

please repeat yourself so that i can laugh at you again :lol

[SamuraiSWISH]

this guy says the only player that season to be in the top 10 of points and assists didn't have any impact :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

please repeat yourself so that i can laugh at you again :lol
:oldlol:

[MiseryCityTexas]

Rose deserved it more than Steve Nash's MVPs.

[SCdac]

the only travesty is people who weren't watching the league closely enough saying somebody like Dwight Howard should've won it (who's team record FELL from the season prior). Still stand by my posts when this thread was created... Rose was sick that season :applause:

[quote]"Once again, I think they have got the MVP of the league. That kid has come into his own. He has matured quite a bit. When he came into the league, everybody said he had speed, he could get to the rim, but he can't shoot. Now he can shoot