Your All-Time Overrated Starting 5

[1987_Lakers]

C - Moses Malone (Not a rim protector, black hole on offense)
PF - Karl Malone (Postseason choker)
SF - Julius Erving (Not as great as advertized by the media)
SG - Pete Maravich (Did this guy even reach the playoffs during his career?)
PG - Oscar Robertson (Triple double in an extremely fast paced era vs weak competition? Not impressed. No titles as the #1 man)

Rules - You have develop a team of players who were elected to the 50 greatest players of all time list in 1996 and you may also choose any superstars from the 00's era.

[Horatio33]

Wilt Chamberlain
Karl Malone
Carmelo Anthony
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

C - Moses Malone (Not a rim protector, black hole on offense)
PF - Karl Malone (Postseason choker)
SF - Julius Erving (Not as great as advertized by the media)
SG - Pete Maravich (Did this guy even reach the playoffs during his career?)
PG - Oscar Robertson (Triple double in an extremely fast paced era vs weak competition? Not impressed. No titles as the #1 man)

Rules - You have develop a team of players who were elected to the 50 greatest players of all time list in 1996 and you may also choose any superstars from the 00's era.
:oldlol: ... :facepalm

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Oscar is overrated. Ive seen people put him top 5 goat.

[noob cake]

Current players in league

Drummond
Griffin
George
Kobe
Rose

[thabisyo]

C - Moses Malone (Not a rim protector, black hole on offense)
PF - Karl Malone (Postseason choker)
SF - Julius Erving (Not as great as advertized by the media)
SG - Pete Maravich (Did this guy even reach the playoffs during his career?)
PG - Oscar Robertson (Triple double in an extremely fast paced era vs weak competition? Not impressed. No titles as the #1 man)

Rules - You have develop a team of players who were elected to the 50 greatest players of all time list in 1996 and you may also choose any superstars from the 00's era.

I want to comment so badly but I am not familiar with the other guys games except karl malone :(

[thabisyo]

Current players in league

Drummond
Griffin
George
Kobe
Rose

Those three are the worst :applause:

[SacJB Shady]

Considering World Peace thought the Lakers would win 73 games last year...

[1987_Lakers]

Current players in league

Drummond
Griffin
George
Kobe
Rose

Griffin is without a doubt the most overrated player in the league today, dude has no skill.

[andremiller07]

Griffin is without a doubt the most overrated player in the league today, dude has no skill.
The fact people still believe DJ is a starting level C (above average) imo makes him far more overrated than Griffin, as much as I don't like Griff he's got some game to him you got to at least respect him out on the floor, DJ.....not so much.

For me atm

C: DJ
PF: Ibaka
SF: no one really
SG: Shumpert
PG: Lin

All very average players who people believe can possibly be allstars.......

[1987_Lakers]

The fact people still believe DJ is a starting level C (above average) imo makes him far more overrated than Griffin, as much as I don't like Griff he's got some game to him you got to at least respect him out on the floor, DJ.....not so much.

For me atm

C: DJ
PF: Ibaka
SF: no one really
SG: Shumpert
PG: Lin

Everyone knows DJ & Lin are garbage. Ibaka is on that overrated list though.

[WillC]

PG - Oscar Robertson (Triple double in an extremely fast paced era vs weak competition? Not impressed

Yeah, because I mean it was so easy that everyone was doing it.

:facepalm

[BoutPractice]

It's interesting to note that every single one of the lineups presented so far would be an unstoppable dynasty.

[WillC]

Oscar is overrated. Ive seen people put him top 5 goat.

That's because, unlike you, they actually watched Oscar Robertson play basketball. Let me enlighten you:

Leonard Koppett: "Oscar Robertson was the complete player. As a passer, mechanically, he was Cousy's equal. As a shooter, he was unsurpassed by anyone. On defense, he could guard his man and steal the ball, intercept passes with uncanny instinct, rebound with bigger man. Offensively, it seemed he could score any time he really wanted to - on a jump shot, on a drive, going into the pivot. In view of these things, it wasn't surprising that many began to refer to Oscar as the best basketball player the human race had yet produced. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour."

Peter Bjarkman: "Nobody could match the 'Big O' for pure artistic grace, for single-handed control of the playing floor he inhabited, or for all-around shooting, passing, and playmaking abilities. In brief, there was never a more complete package for a basketball player put together within a single human frame."

Peter Bjarkman: "For those that still respect versatility, there seems to be little debate. Oscar Robertson indeed remains the greatest basketball player ever invented."

Jerry West: "Oscar is without a doubt the greatest basketball player I have ever played against. To me he is the closest player I have ever seen to being perfect."

Elliot Kalb: "Oscar Robertson may have been better than Michael Jordan, except Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 1960s were not the 1990s."

Elliot Kalb: "Thirty years after his retirement, a strong case could be made for him to be called the best player in NBA history."

John Havlicek: "Oscar was the best player I ever played against. The guy did not have a weakness"

Leonard Koppett: "Anything Jordan could do, Robertson could do better. He could shoot better, defend, pass better, and he was two inches shorter."

Nate Archibald: [I]"He was the best all-around player ever. He was a great rebounder, defensive player

[1987_Lakers]

Did I mentioned Oscar's own teammates hated him? I guess that is one of the reason's why Oscar only had one 50+ win season without Kareem.

[WillC]

Did I mentioned Oscar's own teammates hated him? I guess that is one of the reason's why Oscar only had one 50+ win season without Kareem.

That story is overstated. There are plenty of examples of his teammates applauding his competitive attitude. But sure, some of Oscar's teammates hated him. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Kwame Brown hated Michael Jordan and Smush Parker hated Kobe Bryant. Oscar was similar to Kobe and Jordan in that he suffered no fools and would do anything to win.

Meanwhile, one of Oscar's best teammates, Jerry Lucas, was too busy counting his own rebounds to care about winning.

[KobesFinger]

I can't think of players for all time but currently

C - Roy Hibbert
PF - Kevin Love
SF - Carmelo Anthony
SG - Paul George
PG - Deron Williams

Hibbert is 7'2 but can't rebound and shoots a low percentage. He also seems afraid or ashamed to use his size advantage.

Kevin Love puts up numbers but the Timberwolves get nowhere. Shoots way too many jumpers and is a poor defender. He also started complaining about the Timberwolves getting nowhere even though he's their leader. You never heard Kevin Garnett say anything.

Carmelo Anthony is called the best scorer in the league when he isn't even the best scorer at the 3 spot. Both Durant and LeBron are better scorers. He doesn't play defense and is a ball stopping isolation scorer.

I don't think Paul George is a bad player but I've heard people call him a star. If he were a star he would've averaged better than 19/7/5 with 4 turnovers on 43% shooting.

Utah Deron was one of the best PGs in the league, but since he went to the Nets he's fallen off. If he's still top 10, he's in the bottom of it.

[LAZERUSS]

Did I mentioned Oscar's own teammates hated him? I guess that is one of the reason's why Oscar only had one 50+ win season without Kareem.

Of course the same thing could be said about Kareem, too. He didn't come close to winning crap in the 70's without playing alongside Oscar.

A past his prime Oscar, in his first season in Milwaukee, piloted the team to a 66-16 record, and a dominating world title. Over the course of his next three seasons, the Bucks went 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and a game seven loss in the Finals.) After Oscar retired, the Bucks immediately fell to 38-44, and Kareem was gone the next year.

It wasn't until Magic arrived in 79-80 that KAJ once again played on a title contender.

[kshutts1]

Most overrated? Fun. But let me begin by saying that "overrated" and "all time level great" are not mutually exclusive.

C - I can't think of an adequate player to put here. There are tons of overrated C, but which one is tops? Not sure. I want to say Rasho Nesterovic (sp?) for the simple reason that he was a starter for X amount of years, lol. But I"m sure there's a more overrated C.
PF - Duncan (overrated, to me, because I consider KG to be just as good a player, but Duncan gets #1 PF status by virtue of his awesomeness, plus his lucky circumstance. Put KG on those teams, and suddenly he's GOAT PF)
SF - Erving. Phenomenal, yes. But given too much credit as a baller for his revolutionizing of the game.
SG - Jordan. Top 6 player of all time? Yes. Undisputed GOAT? No.
PG - Nash. I don't think he's overrated now, but in 15-20 years, when people stop remembering him as a player, he will be judged on his ASG appearances (plentiful) and his two MVPs. And then he will be overrated.

To further explain on Doc... Mikan and Cousy both revolutionized the game in a similar way, yet neither is nearly as revered. Why is that? Oh, right, because it is not ESPN highlight-style revolutionizing. I can't wait until that Fox Sports channel starts...

[alexd]

Wilt Chamberlain
Karl Malone
Carmelo Anthony
Oscar Robertson
Chris Paul

interesting.why many people consider cp3 overrated?he s a great leader,very good at PnR.He used to be explosive and athletic but isn t anymore due to injuries.great vision great leader ok shooter really good ballhander and really tough

[D-Wade316]

C - Moses Malone, Bill Walton
PF - None
SF - Larry Bird
SG - Allen Iverson, Reggie Miller, Jerry West
PG - Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson

[Owl]

That story is overstated. There are plenty of examples of his teammates applauding his competitive attitude. But sure, some of Oscar's teammates hated him. Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Kwame Brown hated Michael Jordan and Smush Parker hated Kobe Bryant. Oscar was similar to Kobe and Jordan in that he suffered no fools and would do anything to win.

Meanwhile, one of Oscar's best teammates, Jerry Lucas, was too busy counting his own rebounds to care about winning.
It's not even that. It's untrue or at least entirely without evidence. I've seen zero quotes saying players disliked or regretted playing with Oscar. Only ones which as you say, he showed a low tolerence threshold for poor performance.

It's a misinterpretation of the generally accepted point that Oscar was very demanding. Even Bill Simmons' highly critical interpretation of Oscar doesn't (iirc) suggest teammates disliked him, only that he "wouldn't be fun to play with" or words to that effect. Simmons incidentally suggests he couldn't find any quotes to suggest he made teammates better, which is amusing because he includes a footnote with just such a quote on the next page.


My all overrated team, for what its worth

C: Bill Walton - I think only briefly seeing him at his best (and feeling we missed out) causes us to overrate how good that peak was.

PF: Elvin Hayes - Awesome raw stats compiler, but the metrics suggest he wasn't that great (in one season was he in the top 10 ws/48, no times in top 10 PER). High raw totals based on big minutes disguise inefficient scoring. Not considered the best locker room influence and had a reputation, fair or otherwise as a playoff choker.

SF: James Worthy: Not bad at all. But a short prime (was already falling off in 90-91 then did so badly once Magic retired) and pedestrian numbers. Obviously his role held his scoring down slightly (though it also beneffited his %s as did playing in a fast break style with Magic), and he showed some flexibility on D allowing Magic to cover forwards. I'm not sure whether his numbers, his accolades (1 time MVP vote reciever, 2 time All-NBA 3rd team) or his status as a really good 3rd best player warrant top 50 consideration. A mention goes to Rick Barry for the "difficult teammate" stuff and the fact that he didn't dominate in a weak early ABA.

SG: Anyone not MJ, West or Sharman (maybe Drexler, Sam Jones and Wade are pegged accurately too, depends where you put them). Kobe, well I don't want to get into that, he's very good, I think some overrate him. Gervin, great by the numbers, but no more so than, say, Adrian Dantley. Gervin also has worse D and worse professionalism. Has a bunch of 1st All-NBAs because would be rivals aged or got injured (Bing, Monroe, Goodrich, Maravich, Hudson, Scott, Westphal, Collins, Thompson etc). Monroe, Bing and Maravich to varying degrees have numbers that don't match their 50 at 50 status though injuries might explain that to a degree. Monroe and Maravich weren't great on D either so far as I can tell (though its hard to get a good gauge on this sort of thing).

PG: Isiah Thomas - Has a reputation as a top 3-4 all time pg. The numbers simply don't support that. Whether people just look at raw numbers and ignore pace and turnovers. Whether they look at his stats from the mid 80s and team performance of the late 80s and imagine he and his teams performed at those levels for his entire career. Whether they're looking at his raising his game in the playoff and ignoring that his regular season play meant he didn't have to be that great (career playoff PER 52nd All-time, 50th NBA only; career WS/48 72nd all time, 65th NBA only, and that's with the benefit of a) excluding players who didn't meet the required minutes and b) without having his numbers dragged down by non-prime years, his 3 worst seasons - rookie year and his last two - the Pistons didn't make the playoffs). Whether people forget he only one made top 5 - 5th in '84 - in MVP voting when they suggest he was right up there with Magic and Bird. Whether people think he was an elite defender because he got lots of steals even though he started his career as reckless gambler who made Bob Ryan's All-Sieve team in summer '83 and was never much better than average. The stats suggest he was in the ballpark of (usually slightly worse than) KJ, Tim Hardaway and Mark Price (and they had more competition at pg). You can elevate him a bit because of his playoff play but I see him as badly overrated. Like Maravich but in a different way (Maravich because of his style, Thomas because of being the perceived "star" on some very good teams) he's more significant than he was great.

None of which is to say the above players weren't good. It's all relative.

Edit: At sg should have included Hal Greer, not that he was bad but never a spectacular player amongst the games very elite.

[qrich]

Griffin is without a doubt the most overrated player in the league today, dude has no skill.

Why make suchcomments when you don't watch someone actually play?

[FatComputerNerd]

Chauncey Billups
Kevin Love
Jermaine O'Neil

[Jailblazers7]

If anything, Dr. J is probably underrated especially on ISH.

[Dionysus]

C. Wilt Chamberlain (most overrated Center ever next to Bill Russell. Stats during weak era.)

PF. Chris Bosh (Never was a great player, just overrated in Big 3 hype. Never a legit 20-10 player. Possible homosexual.)

SF. Carmelo Anthony (fat lazy player who will never win a. Title because he's fat, plays no defense, and plays for the Knicks)

SG. Michael Jordan (viewed as overrated because blokes still rate him above LeBron. Jordan was carried to titles by Pippen and a great defensive unit and coach. Especially during his second 3 peat. He shot under 42% for 3 finals, but media hype votes him finals mvp over Pippen. When Jordan left the Bulls high and dry due to gambling debt, Bulls kept going and still contended for a title without Jordan. Will always be a overrated shotjacker.

PG. Oscar Robertson (overrated triple double average and a product of weak inflated era. If LeBron played that triple double average year, LeBron's numbers would be 47ppg 15reb 18ast.

There you have it.

[crisoner]

LeBron
Kobe
Grant Hill
Vince Carter
And Harold Miner

Only knowledgable fans will understand my list and agree.

[livingby3's]

Current players in league

Drummond
Griffin
George
Kobe
Rose

I like this list, but for my personal taste I'll swap the guards for Harden and Irving

[Zodiac]

Currently in the NBA

C-Hibbert
PF-Griffin
SF-Melo
SG-Wade
PG-Jrue Holliday

[NumberSix]

Did I mentioned Oscar's own teammates hated him? I guess that is one of the reason's why Oscar only had one 50+ win season without Kareem.
The funny thing about Oscar is, how the fcuk did ONLY 1 guy average a triple double in an era that had 150+ possessions per game? You have guys now coming close with possessions in the 90s. LeBron would average like 39/17/13 with 150 possessions.

[Kurosawa0]

PG: Allen Iverson
SG: Vince Carter
SF: John Havlicek
PF: Karl Malone
C: David Robinson

[miles berg]

Currently it's Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, & Kevin Love.

[HurricaneKid]

Oscar won 1 playoff series in his career before he hopped on KAJ's back.

The year he avg the triple double he was 6th on his TEAM in reb/min. But he gets a ton of credit because he got to 10/gm. Makes no sense at all.

[Bigsmoke]

C - Moses Malone (Not a rim protector, black hole on offense)
PF - Karl Malone (Postseason choker)
SF - Julius Erving (Not as great as advertized by the media)
SG - Pete Maravich (Did this guy even reach the playoffs during his career?)
PG - Oscar Robertson (Triple double in an extremely fast paced era vs weak competition? Not impressed. No titles as the #1 man)
.

i would love to have that team :confusedshrug:

[Marchesk]

i would love to have that team :confusedshrug:

Too many scorers. Wouldn't work.

[1987_Lakers]

i would love to have that team :confusedshrug:

Enjoy having a team that can't play defense.

[Twiens]

CP3 is without a doubt the most overrated at the moment

[Legends66NBA7]

Enjoy having a team that can't play defense.

Um, what ? Only Maravich is a guy who would suck on defense. The other 4 are more than capable or good defenders.

[Horatio33]

interesting.why many people consider cp3 overrated?he s a great leader,very good at PnR.He used to be explosive and athletic but isn t anymore due to injuries.great vision great leader ok shooter really good ballhander and really tough

His teams never win in the playoffs, and he has the ball in his hands too much. Never got past conference semi finals, and last two years had a really good team. For such a great player he doesn't inspire them to at least conference titles.

[Horatio33]

Vince Carter would be my 6th man. Numbers hide a lack of clutch and softness.

[Legends66NBA7]

Vince Carter would be my 6th man. Numbers hide a lack of clutch and softness.

No. Call him soft, a baby, no heart, etc... call him whatever you want. But he's not lacking anything in the clutch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4TZEw20uQM

He's also got the 2nd most game winners of all active players on a decent conversion rate too.

Old VC still getting it done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnSlXjyHQtM

[Owl]

The funny thing about Oscar is, how the fcuk did ONLY 1 guy average a triple double in an era that had 150+ possessions per game? You have guys now coming close with possessions in the 90s. LeBron would average like 39/17/13 with 150 possessions.
Because assists were a lot tighter. Despite the pace and Robertson's own performance (1960-1969 Oscar averaged 10.5 assists) only one other point guard broke 10 assists (Guy Rodgers, three times, though he had no other seasons with as many as 9 per game, averaged 8.3 a game over the same span).

So whilst rebounds might make the the triple double aspect of Oscar overblown, people ignore how vastly better than the competition he was I doubt the distance between the games best passer and the 2nd best was ever greater. Plus he did this whilst scoring around 30ppg and consistently finishing in the top 2 in the league in ts%, a remarkable combination for a guard.

Oscar's fan stock seems to be sliding badly. Pre-Jordan he was a very plausible candidate for GOAT, two books listed him as such in the early 90s, was named Player of the Century by the NABC (National Association of Basketball Coaches) and 2nd in the AP player of the century. Now most of the fans on here don't think he's top 10 all time.

[longhornfan1234]

PG: Oscar

SG: Drexler

SF: Worthy

PF: Malone

C: Kareem

[Owl]

Oscar won 1 playoff series in his career before he hopped on KAJ's back.
You can play this game with literally every great player that didn't have greats playing with them their entire career (a la Russell, Bird and Magic). What did Jabbar do without either of the top 2 pgs of all time? What did Chamberlain do without HOFers? What did Jordan do without Pippen? What did Kobe do without Shaq or Gasol/Bynum?

The year he avg the triple double he was 6th on his TEAM in reb/min. But he gets a ton of credit because he got to 10/gm. Makes no sense at all.
7th actually. But then you are including two non-rotation big men who combined for slightly over 1000 minutes for the season and a combo forward playing 300 minutes total. Eliminate those guys (tiny sample size) and you unveil that Oscar (the point guard) was outrebounded (by a fairly slender margin) per minute by the starting and backup center and the starting PF. That whilst scoring about a quarter of his team's total points and setting up a great many more (11.4 assists = at least 22.8 points, plus those passes which led fouls and free throws and probably a few more given that the definition of assists was tighter then than it is now).

So no 12.5 boards back then isn't what it would be now. But it was an awful lot for a guard carrying an otherwise mediocre team on his back, in terms of scoring and creating for others (and doing so efficiently), and rarely getting a break.

He collared 17.4% percent of total team boards. Not amazing by itself, not as strong as 12.5 suggests. But very strong indeed for a pg. Awesome for a pg doing everything else he had to do.

Here's the decades top rebounders who had a substantial playmaking role.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_minute&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1961&year_max=1969&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ast_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=6&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=100&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=trb_per_mp
A couple of years from Chamberlain and then guess who? One from a tall swingman with a much lower offensive burden, sandwiched between four seasons of Oscar.

It's not the same as 12.5 boards today. Not close to. It doesn't mean it's not very impressive.

[Myth]

C: Chamberlain/Jabbar/Russell
PF: Duncan
SF: Bird
SG: Jordan
PG: Magic

Real GOAT: Mitch Richmond

[TonyMontana]

C- Bill Russell: The only reason anyone cares about him is because of all of his rings. What did he do on the court that was so impressive? Averaged like 13 PPG on 43% shooting for his career. Wilt was the better rebounder. This guy couldn't do anything that current Joakim Noah couldn't do yet people put him in the top ten? Those people probably never even seen him play. All hype.

F- Chris Bosh: Soft. Gets hyped as a future HOFer by LeBron haters when the only(if any) reason he'll get in is by riding LeBron to championships. Gets pushed around and outrebounded by any half decent bigman, Is a glorified 2 point jump shooter on offense, and could possibly be gay. The only reason he put up 20-10 on Toronto is because the team was terrible and he could pad his stats. Still either missed the playoffs(in the ****ing East too), or lost in the first round every single year.

G- Michael Jordan: Couldn't win until Magic/Larry retired and all the 80s teams got old. Won because he had the GOAT coach, another MVP caliber player in Pippen as well as HOF frontcourt players like Rodman or perenniel all defensive team member in Horace Grant. No 90s team could compare to that talent pool and thats why the Bulls won. If Barkley/Robinson/whoever were the ones that had that cast they'd be the ones with all the rings. Hes the best scorer ever, but incredibly overrated. Doesn't make teammates better, can't play in the interior.

G- Kobe Bryant: Nuff said. High volume scorer. Other than Russell whos niche was defense, noone was even close to being as inefficient as him among all-time great players. Couldn't get past the first round in 3 years of his prime. Has never won a series as an underdog. Only wins when his team is overwhelmingly more stacked. Dick shrinks in elmination/Game 7s. I could go on and on.

G- Oscar Robertson: People only like him for averaging a triple double. But the reason he did that is because of the high pace of the league. If you put him in the current league with current pace and possessions he would only have averaged around 18-6-6 in that season. LeBrons stats are much better and he would have a triple double pretty much every year of his career if he played in the 60s.

Also any small (6 footish) ball dominant point guard is overrated as well.

[Owl]

His teams never win in the playoffs, and he has the ball in his hands too much. Never got past conference semi finals, and last two years had a really good team. For such a great player he doesn't inspire them to at least conference titles.
Which year should he have done so? Post the matchups at the other positions in those series and explain why you would expect a good pg to come out on the winning side.

[Ill Will]

only current members

CP
Harden
Iggy
Melo
Dwight

[KyleKong]

Howard
Gasol
World Peace
Kobe
Nash

:lol

[KyleKong]

C- Bill Russell: The only reason anyone cares about him is because of all of his rings. What did he do on the court that was so impressive? Averaged like 13 PPG on 43% shooting for his career. Wilt was the better rebounder. This guy couldn't do anything that current Joakim Noah couldn't do yet people put him in the top ten? Those people probably never even seen him play. All hype.

F- Chris Bosh: Soft. Gets hyped as a future HOFer by LeBron haters when the only(if any) reason he'll get in is by riding LeBron to championships. Gets pushed around and outrebounded by any half decent bigman, Is a glorified 2 point jump shooter on offense, and could possibly be gay. The only reason he put up 20-10 on Toronto is because the team was terrible and he could pad his stats. Still either missed the playoffs(in the ****ing East too), or lost in the first round every single year.

G- Michael Jordan: Couldn't win until Magic/Larry retired and all the 80s teams got old. Won because he had the GOAT coach, another MVP caliber player in Pippen as well as HOF frontcourt players like Rodman or perenniel all defensive team member in Horace Grant. No 90s team could compare to that talent pool and thats why the Bulls won. If Barkley/Robinson/whoever were the ones that had that cast they'd be the ones with all the rings. Hes the best scorer ever, but incredibly overrated. Doesn't make teammates better, can't play in the interior.

G- Kobe Bryant: Nuff said. High volume scorer. Other than Russell whos niche was defense, noone was even close to being as inefficient as him among all-time great players. Couldn't get past the first round in 3 years of his prime. Has never won a series as an underdog. Only wins when his team is overwhelmingly more stacked. Dick shrinks in elmination/Game 7s. I could go on and on.

G- Oscar Robertson: People only like him for averaging a triple double. But the reason he did that is because of the high pace of the league. If you put him in the current league with current pace and possessions he would only have averaged around 18-6-6 in that season. LeBrons stats are much better and he would have a triple double pretty much every year of his career if he played in the 60s.

Also any small (6 footish) ball dominant point guard is overrated as well.

:bowdown:

[ThaRegul8r]

The funny thing about Oscar is, how the fcuk did ONLY 1 guy average a triple double in an era that had 150+ possessions per game?

It wasn't 150 possessions a game. That's a fictitious number manufactured by ignorant people with an agenda.

[Psileas]

If by "overrated" we mean "in this board" or even "in NBA boards", then lots of people are doing it wrong, picking players who are widely disliked or widely called overrated, which makes them gradually either underrated or, at least, not overrated (see: Oscar).
An all-overrated team, under these circumstances, has to consist of players who are not popular choices as overrated. Someone picking Jordan is closer to the spirit of the question (regardless of correctness), since most will vehemently disagree. Isiah seems a good pick as well. Tim Duncan, too. Not saying all these are necessarily overrated, but they are more "on topic" picks than controversial players like Kobe, Wilt, LeBron, etc.

[JMT]

It wasn't 150 possessions a game. That's a fictitious number manufactured by ignorant people with an agenda.

But the question remains valid. Focusing on his "150" statement is a strawman argument.

If pace was the reason he posted the all-round numbers he did, how come nobody else even came close?

[chips93]

Griffin is without a doubt the most overrated player in the league today, dude has no skill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67UFfv9y51A

griffin is an inconsistent shooter atm, but overall, skillwise, he is above average for his position imo

one of the best passers/ball handlers among PFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiktpVnIXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMNcb9UA-hY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZIwcvp0eW0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLKiHIpBTdE

and he has pretty good touch around the rim, and solid post moves.



if griffin has 'no skill', then what bigs do?

[WillC]

It's criminal how underrated Oscar Robertson has become. There is some crazy revisionist history going on by pre-pubescent ISH members.

Thank God Owl is here to talk some sense into people.

I'm trying to think of a player other than Oscar Robertson who can claim to be:

- The best passer in the league (by a mile)
- The best shooter in the league
- A top 3 scorer in the league
- The best rebounder in the league at his position (by a mile)

Hmmm.... nope, nobody.

Just Oscar.

[WillC]

C- Bill Russell: The only reason anyone cares about him is because of all of his rings. What did he do on the court that was so impressive? Averaged like 13 PPG on 43% shooting for his career. Wilt was the better rebounder. This guy couldn't do anything that current Joakim Noah couldn't do yet people put him in the top ten? Those people probably never even seen him play. All hype.

I dunno, how about revolutionise shot blocking and help-defense? One day you will grow up to realise that basketball isn't just about averaging lots of points. Russell turned the Celtics into a juggernaut. Yeah, he's totally overrated.


G- Michael Jordan: Couldn't win until Magic/Larry retired and all the 80s teams got old. Won because he had the GOAT coach, another MVP caliber player in Pippen as well as HOF frontcourt players like Rodman or perenniel all defensive team member in Horace Grant. No 90s team could compare to that talent pool and thats why the Bulls won. If Barkley/Robinson/whoever were the ones that had that cast they'd be the ones with all the rings. Hes the best scorer ever, but incredibly overrated. Doesn't make teammates better, can't play in the interior.

So perhaps the greatest post-up guard of all-time (other than Oscar Robertson) couldn't 'play in the interior'? If you say so, chief.

By the way, swap Jordan and Malone and you don't think the Jazz could win a few rings with Stockton, Jordan, Hornacek? Or swap Jordan and Kemp and you don't think a team of Payton, Jordan, Schrempf and Perkins wouldn't be a dynasty? Damn, son, you've embarrassed yourself again.

[KG215]

I dunno, how about revolutionise shot blocking and help-defense? One day you will grow up to realise that basketball isn't just about averaging lots of points. Russell turned the Celtics into a juggernaut. Yeah, he's totally overrated.



So perhaps the greatest post-up guard of all-time (other than Oscar Robertson) couldn't 'play in the interior'? If you say so, chief.

By the way, swap Jordan and Malone and you don't think the Jazz could win a few rings with Stockton, Jordan, Hornacek? Or swap Jordan and Kemp and you don't think a team of Payton, Jordan, Schrempf and Perkins wouldn't be a dynasty? Damn, son, you've embarrassed yourself again.
You'll have to excuse TonyMontana. He's just a troll who has an agenda to push. No way he actually believes the nonsense he posts about Jordan and Russell.

[Owl]

It's criminal how underrated Oscar Robertson has become. There is some crazy revisionist history going on by pre-pubescent ISH members.

Thank God Owl is here to talk some sense into people.

I'm trying to think of a player other than Oscar Robertson who can claim to be:

- The best passer in the league (by a mile)
- The best shooter in the league
- A top 3 scorer in the league
- The best rebounder in the league at his position (by a mile)

Hmmm.... nope, nobody.

Just Oscar.
Just curious, who would you have as all time overrated (might be more interesting than some of the above)? Maybe not versus how players are percieved on here (which I suspect/hope is skewed), but relative to a more general perception of the greats (your own 100 multilist for example).

[1987_Lakers]

I have the Big-O in my top 15 players list, I believe he was a better player than Jerry West if we are talking about peaks, but the fact that he had very little team success in his prime alarms me a bit. And people do overrated his trouble double season.

[1987_Lakers]

It's criminal how underrated Oscar Robertson has become. There is some crazy revisionist history going on by pre-pubescent ISH members.

Thank God Owl is here to talk some sense into people.

I'm trying to think of a player other than Oscar Robertson who can claim to be:

- The best passer in the league (by a mile)
- The best shooter in the league
- A top 3 scorer in the league
- The best rebounder in the league at his position (by a mile)

Hmmm.... nope, nobody.

Just Oscar.
You can argue Larry Bird.

Robertson was a better shooter than Jerry West? Honest question.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Blake Griffin
Scottie Pippen (on ISH)
Oscar Robertson

[97 bulls]

Originally posted by TonyMontana

Michael Jordan: Couldn't win until Magic/Larry retired and all the 80s teams got old. Won because he had the GOAT coach, another MVP caliber player in Pippen as well as HOF frontcourt players like Rodman or perenniel all defensive team member in Horace Grant. No 90s team could compare to that talent pool and thats why the Bulls won. If Barkley/Robinson/whoever were the ones that had that cast they'd be the ones with all the rings. Hes the best scorer ever, but incredibly overrated. Doesn't make teammates better, can't play in the interior.]

I dont see how any if this makes Jordan overrated. I know hiw you feel about LeBron James. He had plenty if support on his way to his two titles. Its why he left Cleveland.

I also dont see the point of constantly lying. Neither the Lakers or Pistons were old when they were beaten by the Bulls. Youve been shown this many times. Not to mention even if your point were true, LeBron James couldn't win his two titles until the Kobe led Lakers and Duncan Spurs aged. So whats the difference?

[imdaman99]

ive listened to mike francesa (top radio host here in tri-state area, used to be mike from mike and the mad dog) and hes always talking about oscar robertson belongs in the conversation as amongst the greatest ever. i know he averaged a triple double, but greatest ever? beast numbers definitely, but he wouldnt put kobe in the top 10 because of this. he basically said its either kobe or magic, who do u want to exclude in the top 10? :facepalm

[WillC]

Just curious, who would you have as all time overrated (might be more interesting than some of the above)? Maybe not versus how players are percieved on here (which I suspect/hope is skewed), but relative to a more general perception of the greats (your own 100 multilist for example).

Reggie Miller. He's ranked 42nd on RealGM's top 100 list, ahead of Willis Reed, Bob Cousy, Dave Cowens, etc. Just an example of how much fans seem to love him. Most people would take Reggie Miller over Bill Sharman, but I'm not one of them. Sharman was a legendary shooter in his own era but also tough as nails on the defensive end. Miller could shoot but was he any better than Mitch Richmond? What about Chris Mullin?

My starting five would be rounded out with Dave Bing (not worthy of a 50 greatest selection over Joe Fulks, Dominique Wilkins, Alex English, Bob McAdoo, etc), Karl Malone (longevity and career totals rightly place him amongst the legends, but let's be honest, Garnett was better than him at every aspect of basketball), Billy Cunningham (who, to be fair, isn't overrated by fans but was a dubious top 50 selection) and Elvin Hayes (see Karl Malone).

Miller is the only obvious one though.

[WillC]

Tim Duncan
Bill Russell
Blake Griffin
Scottie Pippen (on ISH)
Oscar Robertson

Minus Blake Griffin, you just selected the most perfect starting five imaginable.

That's what you were trying to do, right...?

[97 bulls]

My overrated list

Russell.
I do feel hed be another Rodman or Wallace if he played today.

Barkley
Theres a reason why he never won. A terrible work ethic and unwillingness to take defense seriously

Bird
Great player. But he had more than his share of stinkers as far as playoffs go. And his defense is overrated.

Bryant
Again, great player. But he is nothing more than a volume shooter.

Wade
He has no business being discussed as a top 15 player. Mid to low 20s is where he belongs

[Odinn]

C: Bill Walton
PF: Kevin Garnett
SF: Kevin Durant
SG: Kobe Bryant
PG: Steve Nash

[WillC]

You can argue Larry Bird.

Robertson was a better shooter than Jerry West? Honest question.

Robertson was better from mid-range, West was better from long range. I have a quote somewhere from Jerry West stating just that.

It's really a toss-up between the two.

As for Larry Bird, I agree, he's very close. His passing was sublime, but didn't rack up assists like Oscar did relative to his competition.

[AlphaWolf24]

:lol people calling 2nd 3rd year players overrated....

stupid mcnupid.....( how the F can you say a player is overrated if he barely started his career?.....and still be an " alltime overrated" player?)

- Players that we seen play thier whole careers.

off the top of my head..
( only using pure Basketball impact...I know AI is a basketball God...no matter what)

Allen Iverson
Patrick Ewing
Hersey Hawkins
Christian Leatnner
Shawn kemp

could swap Hawkins with Derrick Coleman

[1987_Lakers]

Elvin Hayes & Allen Iverson get an honorable mention from me.

[AlphaWolf24]

My overrated list

Russell.
I do feel hed be another Rodman or Wallace if he played today.

Barkley
Theres a reason why he never won. A terrible work ethic and unwillingness to take defense seriously

Bird
Great player. But he had more than his share of stinkers as far as playoffs go. And his defense is overrated.

Bryant
Again, great player. But he is nothing more than a volume shooter.

Wade
He has no business being discussed as a top 15 player. Mid to low 20s is where he belongs


OH mer GAWD!!:facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

My overrated list

Russell.
I do feel hed be another Rodman or Wallace if he played today.

Barkley
Theres a reason why he never won. A terrible work ethic and unwillingness to take defense seriously

Bird
Great player. But he had more than his share of stinkers as far as playoffs go. And his defense is overrated.

Bryant
Again, great player. But he is nothing more than a volume shooter.

Wade
He has no business being discussed as a top 15 player. Mid to low 20s is where he belongs

Russell - Is the greatest defensive player in NBA History and how can you go against 11 rings? People point to his cast for his success, but Wilt had similar talent on his team from 65-69.

Wade- I've never heard anyone label him as a top 15 player all time

Bird - You point to his playoff stinkers, but ignore he won 3 championships as the man? Was the league's undisputed best player from 84-86.

[97 bulls]

Russell - Is the greatest defensive player in NBA History and how can you go against 11 rings? People point to his cast for his success, but Wilt had similar talent on his team from 65-69.

Wade- I've never heard anyone label him as a top 15 player all time

Bird - You point to his playoff stinkers, but ignore he won 3 championships as the man? Was the league's undisputed best player from 84-86.
Wades not even too 20. And as ive stated before, ive never seen a guy get soooo much credit for 4 games.

What do you think Russell stats would look like today?

I didnt ignore Birds championships. Theres just thus constant notion that Bird was just this player that did no wrong. And that his defense was good. When the fact is his Celtics teams lost a lot of series they shouldve won.

[1987_Lakers]

When the fact is his Celtics teams lost a lot of series they shouldve won.

Name one series the Celtics should have won besides '83 vs the Bucks.

[97 bulls]

Name one series the Celtics should have won besides '83 vs the Bucks.
I believe theres about five that the Celtics lost as the favorite. I expect a lot out of a team thats pegged as an all time great.

[1987_Lakers]

C: Bill Walton
PF: Kevin Garnett
SF: Kevin Durant
SG: Kobe Bryant
PG: Steve Nash

That looks like a dominant starting 5.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Minus Blake Griffin, you just selected the most perfect starting five imaginable.

That's what you were trying to do, right...?
Nah Russell and Duncan are both overrated. A perfect starting lineup?

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Jordan
LeBron

[97 bulls]

Nah Russell and Duncan are both overrated. A perfect starting lineup?

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Jordan
LeBron
How? Youd have four guys fighting to dominate the ball. And an underutilized dominat center. Streaky shooting. Besides Bird

[1987_Lakers]

Nah Russell and Duncan are both overrated. A perfect starting lineup?

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Jordan
LeBron

'77 Walton
'86 Bird
'13 James
'91 Jordan
'87 Magic

[TonyMontana]

I dunno, how about revolutionise shot blocking and help-defense? One day you will grow up to realise that basketball isn't just about averaging lots of points. Russell turned the Celtics into a juggernaut. Yeah, he's totally overrated.

What does Bill Russell do better than Joakim Noah?

I want to know what specific aspect of basketball hes better at.

In before "11 rings". The Celtics were a "juggernaut" because they had all of the top players in an 8 team league. Russell was still the best player on the team, but if you think this guy was as good as a Wilt/Kareem/Shaq/Duncan you need to sit the **** down and actually watch video of him.




So perhaps the greatest post-up guard of all-time (other than Oscar Robertson) couldn't 'play in the interior'? If you say so, chief.

By the way, swap Jordan and Malone and you don't think the Jazz could win a few rings with Stockton, Jordan, Hornacek? Or swap Jordan and Kemp and you don't think a team of Payton, Jordan, Schrempf and Perkins wouldn't be a dynasty? Damn, son, you've embarrassed yourself again.

The only ones Jordan can post up is OTHER guards. He isn't going to effect your rebounding or rim protection. If you havn't noticed guards arn't nearly as impactful as bigs. Jordan is the only player under 6'8 that people have in the top ten all-time and thats because he was the best scorer(30 PPG on 50% shooting).

He can't battle for you inside against bigs like the centers, and he doesn't make anyone better like LeBron/Magic/Larry(these guys all had size as well).

Good scorer, far from the anonymous GOAT. That makes him overrated.


You'll have to excuse TonyMontana. He's just a troll who has an agenda to push. No way he actually believes the nonsense he posts about Jordan and Russell.

What is my agenda?


I dont see how any if this makes Jordan overrated. I know hiw you feel about LeBron James. He had plenty if support on his way to his two titles. Its why he left Cleveland.

I also dont see the point of constantly lying. Neither the Lakers or Pistons were old when they were beaten by the Bulls. Youve been shown this many times. Not to mention even if your point were true, LeBron James couldn't win his two titles until the Kobe led Lakers and Duncan Spurs aged. So whats the difference?

See what I said to the guy above.

Jordan is the only all-time great under 6'8(and Kobe isn't an all-time great, only retards think hes top ten.) He can't control the interior like a center, and he doesn't make anyone better like LeBron/Magic/Larry.

The Lakers and the Pistons were indeed old. Lakers had no Kareem, and an injured Worthy while the Pistons once swept in 91, would not win a playoff series again until Ben Wallace was on the team 10+ years later.

LeBron James is better than Jordan because he can do it all. He can cover for Miamis lack of a presence inside by playing some power forward and averaging 10+ RPG while guarding bigs. Or he can shut down point guards like Tony Parker while dishing out 10+ APG. Or he can score 30+. His versatality allows him to do it all for his team, even with a weak cast such as the Miami 12 and 13 teams.

Wade didn't average 20 PPG for a single series this past year and had a 49 TS% which shows that not only can he not shoot threes, but he also NEVER gets to the line. He was a liability out there and the Heat played better with Ray Allen or Mike Miller. Bosh gets pushed around at any physicality. The Heat won a title with Birdman being their 2nd best player after LeBron.

When Jordan didn't have Grant/Rodman in 95, he was anally creampied by Shaqs Magic. It wasn't until 96 where the Bulls absolutely DESTROYED them on the rebounds did they beat them. Was that due to Jordan? Na Rodman and the Magics Horace Grant got hurt in that series.

[ThaRegul8r]

Nah Russell and Duncan are both overrated. A perfect starting lineup?

Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Jordan
LeBron

How? Youd have four guys fighting to dominate the ball. And an underutilized dominat center. Streaky shooting. Besides Bird

Most posters on the internet would make lousy GMs. They have no idea how to build an actual team. Not surprising due to how highly individualism is regarded.

[97 bulls]

When Jordan didn't have Grant/Rodman in 95, he was anally creampied by Shaqs Magic. It wasn't until 96 where the Bulls absolutely DESTROYED them on the rebounds did they beat them. Was that due to Jordan? Na Rodman and the Magics Horace Grant got hurt in that series.
And what has James done without Bosh and Wade?






Wade didn't average 20 PPG for a single series this past year and had a 49 TS% which shows that not only can he not shoot threes, but he also NEVER gets to the line. He was a liability out there and the Heat played better with Ray Allen or Mike Miller. Bosh gets pushed around at any physicality. The Heat won a title with Birdman being their 2nd best player after LeBron.
Just Wades presence alone, as well as Boshes, forces teams to have to play them and thus take pressure off James. Why do you think he left Cleveland?


LeBron James is better than Jordan because he can do it all. He can cover for Miamis lack of a presence inside by playing some power forward and averaging 10+ RPG while guarding bigs. Or he can shut down point guards like Tony Parker while dishing out 10+ APG. Or he can score 30+. His versatality allows him to do it all for his team, even with a weak cast such as the Miami 12 and 13 teams.*
James is great as well as versitle. But real basketball fans know James has weaknesses. He has no post game, hes not effective off the ball, and this notiin that he defends bigs is a myth. And when he does defend PGs, he simply backs off them and gets alot of help from his team. Ive even sent you video to show this is a myth. You conveniently ignore it.




Jordan is the only all-time great under 6'8(and Kobe isn't an all-time great, only retards think hes top ten.) He can't control the interior like a center, and he doesn't make anyone better like LeBron/Magic/Larry.
Centers cant control the perimeter. Phil Jackson was asked who hed take between Shaq (prime Shaq mind you) and Jordan during the early 00s Lakers run, he chose Jordan because as he said youyou need a guard to get a center the ball.



The Lakers and the Pistons were indeed old. Lakers had no Kareem, and an injured Worthy while the Pistons once swept in 91, would not win a playoff series again until Ben Wallace was on the team 10+ years later.*
Even if your argument is true (it isnt), James didnt win anything until The Spurs and Lakers aged. Why the double standard? In fact, I cant even call it a double standard. Youre holding Jordan to a HIGHER standard. Whats more, is you penalize the Bulls for playing and beating injured teams. This years Heat more than benifited from their opposition suffering from injury. The same goes for last year.