is Kyrie Irving the most overrated player in the league?

[TonyMontana]

After Kobe of course.

Since drafting him.
Cleveland 202: 21-45(.318)
Cleveland 2013: 24-58(.292)

No improvement as a team into year 2. They actually got worse.

"But he was hurt!!!!"

Here is Clevelands record with him playing.

2012: 17-34(.333)
2013: 19-40(.322)

Alright a LITTLE better, but still only winning about 33% of the games, in otherwords still garbage.

He was hurt for almost the entirety of his college career too. This guy is just injury prone. He makes no impact defense, he requires the ball in his hands to do anything. What is so good about this guy. Doesn't effect the win totals at all. Another small ball dominant guard that doesn't make the impact to winning that Sportscenter and uneducated fans would lead you to believe.

[LikeABosh]

Ive watched a fair amount of him and hes a terrible defender

[RedBlackAttack]

One sure sign that a player is beginning to arrive is the formation of a group of haters (and I despise that word). There are a couple of posters here now devoting significant time to disparaging Irving. I expect that number to grow as he continues to improve.

This is a great sign. :cheers:

[Johnny Jones]

Jesus christ. Just ban this fool already.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Not at all. But at the same stage, he's on a path faster than LeBron's.

[SilkkTheShocker]

LeBron>>>Kobe

[Rose'sACL]

I do think his health is a big issue which is one of the main reasons i think Westbrook is the best PG in the league. CP3 looks like he is playing hurt for most of the season otherwise he could be the best PG by a big margin.

[Marchesk]

LeBron>>>Kobe

:lol funny troll

[miggyme1]

Bums dont know greatness when they see it. Kyrie is pretty much a younger cp3. Got the vision,the handles, the shooting touch, only thing i question is the leadership. U cant expect a 19 year old to come into the nba and be stellar defensively. It takes time. Lebron was garbage on defense when he first entered the league. Michael jordan was as well. Give the man some time to grow damn.

[Wally450]

Kyrie's the real deal, keep sleeping on him.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Bums dont know greatness when they see it. Kyrie is pretty much a younger cp3. Got the vision,the handles, the shooting touch, only thing i question is the leadership. U cant expect a 19 year old to come into the nba and be stellar defensively. It takes time. Lebron was garbage on defense when he first entered the league. Michael jordan was as well. Give the man some time to grow damn.
I really like kyrie but cp3 is/was a much better passer.

[KyleKong]

Not overrated, remember LeBron's Cavs didn't make the playoffs the first two seasons of his career.

Kyrie is such an awful defender it baffles me that someone with that much talent can be that bad at on-ball and help defense.

He's a good All-Star, but not exactly a franchise player.

[SmackOrH.A.K]

No, paul george is.

[retaxis]

apart from all the things Kyrie could do lets not forget he won the god damn 3 point championship and the previous year won the rookie/sophmore event with 8 3s without missing. This guy can shoot and dribble and thats a true threat.

[RedBlackAttack]

Not overrated, remember LeBron's Cavs didn't make the playoffs the first two seasons of his career.

Kyrie is such an awful defender it baffles me that someone with that much talent can be that bad at on-ball and help defense.

He's a good All-Star, but not exactly a franchise player.
He played the majority of last season as a 20-year-old and averaged 23/6/4 on 45/86/40. You're really ready to make that kind of statement?

[TonyMontana]

People say Kyrie is the best non-Miami player in the East. When I see that shit I laugh my ass off.

Lol @ the guy that said he was on Chris Pauls level. His basketball IQ isn't half of what Pauls is, nor can he get his teammates involved like Paul. Paul is also a good defender for his position.


No, paul george is.

I'll take Paul George over Kyrie anyday. Paul George is an elite defensive player, great shooter, and he doesn't need to dominate the ball to make his impact on the game.

Little 6 foot guards that dont do shit unless their dominating the ball = overrated.

[Sarcastic]

He gets buckets, which is the most important skill in basketball. The biggest knock on him to me is his health, and he seems to be an unwilling passer. No reason his assists should be as low as they are.

[TonyMontana]

Not overrated, remember LeBron's Cavs didn't make the playoffs the first two seasons of his career.

Kyrie is such an awful defender it baffles me that someone with that much talent can be that bad at on-ball and help defense.

He's a good All-Star, but not exactly a franchise player.

Agreed, unless you have multiple all-stars/elite players on your team, the ceiling of a Kyrie Irving franchise is a .500 season.

[Uncle Drew]

Agreed, unless you have multiple all-stars/elite players on your team, the ceiling of a Kyrie Irving franchise is a .400 season.

Noted. Will bump.

[KyleKong]

Agreed, unless you have multiple all-stars/elite players on your team, the ceiling of a Kyrie Irving franchise is a .500 season.

Yup, if Anthony Bennett is a bust, than Kyrie will be going no where with the City of Losers. :rockon:

[RedBlackAttack]

Noted. Will bump.
He's already hedging his bets...

"unless you have multiple all-stars/elite players on your team"

...this means any success the Cavs will have from this point forward will be attributed to his teammates. Bet on it. Like I said, I love that Kyrie now has a devoted band of detractors. That's a great sign so early in his career.

[FireDavidKahn]

:lol This same argument goes against Kevin Love all the time.

[RedBlackAttack]

:lol This same argument goes against Kevin Love all the time.
It's a dumb argument in both cases, but at least Love is a 24-year-old who has been in the league for five seasons. If the Cavs haven't made the playoffs three years from now, that kind of criticism may be warranted.

[KyleKong]

:lol This same argument goes against Kevin Love all the time.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Kevin Love is the GOAT of stat padding. He's not a winner, no defense, and his franchise will be going NO WHERE with him.

[TonyMontana]

:lol This same argument goes against Kevin Love all the time.

I'd rather have Love than Irving.

He is a great off ball player(as a shooter and for finishing around the rim), and probably the best rebounder in the league. This is a guy whose talents can be utilized on any team.

With Irving you have to have him dominate the ball, and cater to him.

[retaxis]

Kyrie is a competitve animal and would be a real trash talking b1tch if you played against him. He has every right as he is very young 2nd season with already rookie of the year, 3 point championship and all star appearances. How many of you fat boys have even $15 to scrub together?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Irving is actually one of the better off-ball point guards in the nba so idk why you keep saying he has to "dominate the ball".

[CavaliersFTW]

Noted. Will bump.
He just edited his post to .500 to save face :oldlol:

[The JKidd Kid]

I agree, it's funny how pe criticize some one dimensional players like Melo, but still praise Kyrie Irving who is as bad at defense as you can get and averages 5 assists at the PG position, yet you'll see people rank him above Curry, Rose, Williams and Rondo when they rank PGs.

Once you get over all the number 1 pick and the anti-Lebron hype, he's just a poor mans Gilbert Arenas, and that could be viewed as an insult to Arenas.

[RedBlackAttack]

I'd rather have Love than Irving.

He is a great off ball player(as a shooter and for finishing around the rim), and probably the best rebounder in the league. This is a guy whose talents can be utilized on any team.

With Irving you have to have him dominate the ball, and cater to him.
:roll:

Hilariously horrible analysis and ironic ball dominant talk coming from a LeBron James fanboy. Kyrie's elite shooting alone make him a constant threat off the ball.

[Solefade]

Kyrie is the real deal despite his team records, the biggest concern of his career will be his health. He seems very injury prone.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie is the real deal despite his team records, the biggest concern of his career will be his health. He seems very injury prone.
The Cavs whole MO was to have high lottery picks in the three drafts following James' departure. The plan worked out perfectly. Nothing to see here.

[Sarcastic]

The Cavs whole MO was to have high lottery picks in the three drafts following James' departure. The plan worked out perfectly. Nothing to see here.


I thought it was to win a title before Lebron?

[LBJMVP]

What a troll thread. Kyrie is a beast. Best handles in the game and statistically the clutchest. Averaged 23/6/4 in his second year and some one has the nerve to call him the most overrated. I've seen threads about the top point guards in the game and the concensus is top 6 or 7 which is right. If he keeps improving he will easily be top 3.

[LBJMVP]

Kyrie is the real deal despite his team records, the biggest concern of his career will be his health. He seems very injury prone.
I don't know... He was out for the shoulder in year one and that's it. And we held him out extra long to tank. Next was a concussion and then him punching a wall. Not really injury probe injuries. There has been no problem with the foot he hurt in college. That shoulder could be a problem cause its been injured multiple times.

[TonyMontana]

:roll:

Hilariously horrible analysis and ironic ball dominant talk coming from a LeBron James fanboy. Kyrie's elite shooting alone make him a constant threat off the ball.

There is only one ball dominant player in the NBA worth building around.

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1371/77/1371777024443s.jpg

Every other ball dominant player is inferior and will not result in a championship. Tell me when the last team with a ball dominant little point guard won a championship?

With LeBron you got size at 6'8. He can effect the game in other ways. With these little point guards like Irving they arn't doing shit unless the ball is in their hands. No defense, no rebounding.

[Solefade]

I don't know... He was out for the shoulder in year one and that's it. And we held him out extra long to tank. Next was a concussion and then him punching a wall. Not really injury probe injuries. There has been no problem with the foot he hurt in college. That shoulder could be a problem cause its been injured multiple times.

He played a total of 2 games at Duke cus of injuries lol

[FireDavidKahn]

It's a dumb argument in both cases, but at least Love is a 24-year-old who has been in the league for five seasons. If the Cavs haven't made the playoffs three years from now, that kind of criticism may be warranted.
Irrelevant. It took years for Love to become "Love", Irving came into the league very polished. Love has had only 2 very good seasons while being "the man".

[LBJMVP]

There is only one ball dominant player in the NBA worth building around.

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1371/77/1371777024443s.jpg

Every other ball dominant player is inferior and will not result in a championship. Tell me when the last team with a ball dominant little point guard won a championship?

With LeBron you got size at 6'8. He can effect the game in other ways. With these little point guards like Irving they arn't doing shit unless the ball is in their hands. No defense, no rebounding.
Typical Lebron argument. Haha. Lmao at this bitch who thinks Lebron was good at defense until mike brown came.

[RedBlackAttack]

Irrelevant. It took years for Love to become "Love", Irving came into the league very polished. Love has had only 2 very good seasons while being "the man".
It's irrelevant to say people are being dumb by holding Irving up to a win-loss standard when he has only been in the league for 2 seasons, was drafted as a teenager and is a player for a franchise that just completely nuked their entire roster and even publicly stated they had a "three year plan" of getting back into playoff contention?

I disagree. Cavs have had no desire to maximize wins over the last three years.

[LBJMVP]

He played a total of 2 games at Duke cus of injuries lol
He played 8 games at duke got injured one time, came back and immediately dominated the NCAA tournament and has never had a problem with that foot since. Played a total of 11 games. Where did you pull the number two out of? Your ass?

[RedBlackAttack]

He played 6 games at duke got injured one time, came back and immediately dominated the NCAA tournament and has never had a problem with that foot since.
He played 11 games at Duke.

[LBJMVP]

Nice username, I agree completely
Stands for Lyndon b. Johnson most valuable president.

[LBJMVP]

He played 11 games at Duke.
I meant 6 before the injury then came back and dominated the tounament. Meant to put 8

[ThickassGlasses]

Not that anyone in this thread is doing so, but Kyrie is definitely overrated on ISH.

He has a very aesthetic game, and has a ton of talent but plenty of people are saying they'd take him over Rose and Westbrook going forward. How is that not overrated?

[RedBlackAttack]

I meant 6 before the injury then came back and dominated the tounament. Meant to put 8
Yeah, I thought you were probably referring to his games played prior to injury, but like you said, it was 8 not 5. Duke was undefeated before Kyrie's injury and no. 1 in the country, I believe.

[RedBlackAttack]

Not that anyone in this thread is doing so, but Kyrie is definitely overrated on ISH.

He has a very aesthetic game, and has a ton of talent but plenty of people are saying they'd take him over Rose and Westbrook going forward. How is that not overrated?
...because he has the potential to be better than those guys? I haven't seen anyone say he's better than those guys already, but it's about his upside going forward. He's just 21.

[ThickassGlasses]

...because he has the potential to be better than those guys? I haven't seen anyone say he's better than those guys already, but it's about his upside going forward. He's just 21.

I get that, but he hasn't played a full season of basketball since Highschool. His injury potential is just as high as his superstar potential, if not higher. I don't see how people ignore that right now.

[Uncle Drew]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads7/51f2ec539e12f/51f2ec5397f89-fff.png

Lol, he deleted his post.

[Johnny Jones]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads7/51f2ec539e12f/51f2ec5397f89-fff.png

Lol, he deleted his post.
Oh boy.

[RedBlackAttack]

I get that, but he hasn't played a full season of basketball since Highschool. His injury potential is just as high as his superstar potential, if not higher. I don't see how people ignore that right now.
His injury history is discussed A LOT, be it on here, over at realcavsfan and in Cleveland in general. I don't think he's a guy who has avoided skepticism. I think if he gets injured and misses significant time this year, there will be a lot of questions.

It is worth noting, though, that this will be the first season that he's played where the Cavs' franchise is actually wanting and expecting to win games. They were extremely cautious with even his minor scrapes in his first two years. We'll see if that changes this year.

[Jameerthefear]

Stop responding to him you morons. This is the only attention he gets in his life, so he goes on here and says stupid sh1t like this. He's not getting banned so just ignore him.

[ThickassGlasses]

His injury history is discussed A LOT, be it on here, over at realcavsfan and in Cleveland in general. I don't think he's a guy who has avoided skepticism. I think if he gets injured and misses significant time this year, there will be a lot of questions.

It is worth noting, though, that this will be the first season that he's played where the Cavs' franchise is actually wanting and expecting to win games. They were extremely cautious with even his minor scrapes in his first two years. We'll see if that changes this year.

I hope he stays healthy this year for you guys, the team will be extremely fun to watch. I was all aboard the "freak injury" train when he was Duke, and even his first year in the league. It's just very close to becoming habitual now.

I wish good luck to him this upcoming year though, I would love to see him and Wall both make the playoffs this year.

[TonyMontana]

Not that anyone in this thread is doing so, but Kyrie is definitely overrated on ISH.

He has a very aesthetic game, and has a ton of talent but plenty of people are saying they'd take him over Rose and Westbrook going forward. How is that not overrated?

This is why hes overrated.

People like seeing his crossover dribble, and think it makes him the best in the league. Has a lot of flair.

When you look at his actual impact on the games, it is almost non-existent. Everyone in the NBA is talented, only reason he puts up numbers is because he is ball dominant.


Stop responding to him you morons. This is the only attention he gets in his life, so he goes on here and says stupid sh1t like this. He's not getting banned so just ignore him.

Says the kid with anime porn as his avatar and knows nothing about basketball. :oldlol:

Maybe you should join a naked pics of Sailor Moon forum instead.

[red1]

no

[Sarcastic]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads7/51f2ec539e12f/51f2ec5397f89-fff.png

Lol, he deleted his post.


This should come as no surprise to anyone.

[CavaliersFTW]

http://www.imgdumper.nl/uploads7/51f2ec539e12f/51f2ec5397f89-fff.png

Lol, he deleted his post.
:biggums:

[TonyMontana]

Lol, he deleted his post.

Where are your ads at on the side?

You do know it is a violation of the site to have a program which blocks ads, correct?

I deleted my post because some mod edited it to that because he was butthurt and couldn't handle it.

[WayOfWade]

But, he scored 41 @ the Garden... and lost

[Uncle Drew]

Where are your ads at on the side?

You do know it is a violation of the site to have a program which blocks ads, correct?
It's because I'm from the Netherlands, different ads. Nice try though.

[IGOTGAME]

Pretty sure Steph Curry is the most overrated player at the moment.

[Jameerthefear]

Where are your ads at on the side?

You do know it is a violation of the site to have a program which blocks ads, correct?

I deleted my post because some mod edited it to that because he was butthurt and couldn't handle it.
It should be a violation of the site to post bullshit 24/7, but nope long as their clicking ads it doesn't matter.
With that, I'm out of this thread. Hope people take my advice.

[RedBlackAttack]

I hope he stays healthy this year for you guys, the team will be extremely fun to watch. I was all aboard the "freak injury" train when he was Duke, and even his first year in the league. It's just very close to becoming habitual now.

I wish good luck to him this upcoming year though, I would love to see him and Wall both make the playoffs this year.
Trust me, I've openly discussed the idea of him possibly being injury prone. I think it's a valid concern, since he's missed significant time the last three years (including his one year at Duke). I sort of brushed it aside for his first 1 1/2 years, but his last injury this past year -- I think it was his shoulder -- I started to get a little concerned.

With that being said, none of his injuries have been to his legs/knees or really anything that would be cause for concern in and of itself. The concern is the volume of injuries, not the actual injuries themselves.

You brought up Rose and Westbrook....

Here's a question for you. From strictly an injury standpoint, would you rather have Kyrie Irving who has missed a relatively large sample of games in his first two years, but the injuries aren't serious...

OR

...have a Rose or Westbrook who are proven to be reliable and durable, but are coming off of really serious knee injuries?

To me, any time you start talking about knees, it is a major concern going forward and Kyrie has never had an issue there (*knock on wood*). Modern medicine and rehab techniques help ease the concern, but that's still nothing to brush off when you're talking about super athletic, really physical guards sustaining those kinds of injuries.

Food for thought.

[TonyMontana]

It should be a violation of the site to post bullshit 24/7, but nope long as their clicking ads it doesn't matter.
With that, I'm out of this thread. Hope people take my advice.

We're on this site to discuss basketball(which is what the topic is about). Something you clearly know nothing about.

If you would prefer to see a picture of a nude Goku fingering Piccolo up the ass then your on the wrong site.

[Solefade]

He played 8 games at duke got injured one time, came back and immediately dominated the NCAA tournament and has never had a problem with that foot since. Played a total of 11 games. Where did you pull the number two out of? Your ass?

Was obviously exaggerating but the point is he has missed big chunks of games every season so far in his young career.

[Electric Slide]

He is likeable, probably because of that Uncle Drew ad, so people will say how great he is but he's not that good.

He's injury prone, crappy defender, and an average playmaker/passer.

[LBJMVP]

He is likeable, probably because of that Uncle Drew ad, so people will say how great he is but he's not that good.

He's injury prone, crappy defender, and an average playmaker/passer.
Only people who have never watched Irving actually say he isn't a great playmaker or passer. People only say this because of low assists numbers. Remind who the best player Irving had played with again? Varajoe, but he is always hurt. Next is a rookie dion waiters.

[nathanjizzle]

its pathetic how insecure lebronifers are.

[The JKidd Kid]

Only people who have never watched Irving actually say he isn't a great playmaker or passer. People only say this because of low assists numbers. Remind who the best player Irving had played with again? Varajoe, but he is always hurt. Next is a rookie dion waiters.

Deron Williams averaged 9 assists with Kris Humphries as his best player. Team mates arnt an excuse for low assist numbers, lack of play making ability is.

[chips93]

Only people who have never watched Irving actually say he isn't a great playmaker or passer. People only say this because of low assists numbers. Remind who the best player Irving had played with again? Varajoe, but he is always hurt. Next is a rookie dion waiters.

i dont think irving is a bad passer, but i dont think hes a great one.

so far in his career, he has mostly looked for his own shot as a first option. and that makes sense since he is the best offensive player the cavs have, but i think the elite passers, rondo, cp3, rubio, look for teammates first.

kyrie, imo, gets most of his assists, once he has made his move, and the defense has over played him, and left somebody open.

he doesnt create open looks for teammates, in the patient way that rondo or cp3 do.

i think he will be fine though, he'll figure it out, and even if he doesnt, he is still likely gonna be one of the best pgs in the league very soon, such is his immense scoring talent




oh, and as for assist numbers, will bynum, jameer nelson, and beno udrih all get more assists on a per minute basis this past season, and they all played with similarly weak offensive players around them

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2013&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ast_pct

[The JKidd Kid]

i dont think irving is a bad passer, but i dont think hes a great one.

so far in his career, he has mostly looked for his own shot as a first option. and that makes sense since he is the best offensive player the cavs have, but i think the elite passers, rondo, cp3, rubio, look for teammates first.

kyrie, imo, gets most of his assists, once he has made his move, and the defense has over played him, and left somebody open.

he doesnt create open looks for teammates, in the patient way that rondo or cp3 do.

i think he will be fine though, he'll figure it out, and even if he doesnt, he is still likely gonna be one of the best pgs in the league very soon, such is his immense scoring talent




oh, and as for assist numbers, will bynum, jameer nelson, and beno udrih all get more assists on a per minute basis this past season, and they all played with similarly weak offensive players around them

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2013&year_max=2013&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ast_pct

You have to add Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis to that list. It's funny how they're viewed as checkers while Irving isn't, even though they average more assists than him.

[chips93]

You have to add Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis to that list. It's funny how they're viewed as checkers while Irving isn't, even though they average more assists than him.

well, i think you get the 'chucker' label, not neccessarily for taking too many shots, but for taking too many bad shots.

which is the case for monta and jennings, but not really for kyrie

[EnoughSaid]

He's been in the league two years, ridden by injuries, but he's been off the hook. Already arguably a top 5 point guard in this league. His team is now improved, and everyone should expect him to show some leadership and get that squad into the playoffs.

[ThickassGlasses]

Trust me, I've openly discussed the idea of him possibly being injury prone. I think it's a valid concern, since he's missed significant time the last three years (including his one year at Duke). I sort of brushed it aside for his first 1 1/2 years, but his last injury this past year -- I think it was his shoulder -- I started to get a little concerned.

With that being said, none of his injuries have been to his legs/knees or really anything that would be cause for concern in and of itself. The concern is the volume of injuries, not the actual injuries themselves.


That I agree with completely, the actual injuries have been ones that are easy to overcome, but the amount is nearing the upper limits. I don't know much about Cleveland's training staff, but if they are upper echelon like most NBA staffs, then it is very concerning that his body just cant stay stable enough to play.

I'm with you on the fact that he has one more year before I chalk him up to prone though.



You brought up Rose and Westbrook....

Here's a question for you. From strictly an injury standpoint, would you rather have Kyrie Irving who has missed a relatively large sample of games in his first two years, but the injuries aren't serious...

OR

...have a Rose or Westbrook who are proven to be reliable and durable, but are coming off of really serious knee injuries?

To me, any time you start talking about knees, it is a major concern going forward and Kyrie has never had an issue there (*knock on wood*). Modern medicine and rehab techniques help ease the concern, but that's still nothing to brush off when you're talking about super athletic, really physical guards sustaining those kinds of injuries.

Food for thought.

At this point in time I'll still take Rose and Westbook until I get to see them play and I can tell if it effects their play. I've worked with, and known plenty of athletes (not NBA caliber) that have come back from identical injuries to return to their previous level and go beyond it.

That being said, everyone is different so I would really have to see them practice/play before being sold.



On the same token, I would consider taking Kyrie over Rose just because I don't know of any competitive athlete that loves the sport that would take 18 months off for an injury that can be overcome in half that time. Especially if cleared by everybody. But skill/game wise, Rose is still superior even coming off the injury.

[TonyMontana]

You have to add Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis to that list. It's funny how they're viewed as checkers while Irving isn't, even though they average more assists than him.

Good post my man

Says a lot about how much an "image" can perceive the average fans opinion.

[Electric Slide]

Only people who have never watched Irving actually say he isn't a great playmaker or passer. People only say this because of low assists numbers. Remind who the best player Irving had played with again? Varajoe, but he is always hurt. Next is a rookie dion waiters.
You don't need to have good passers to have good assists numbers.

Irving is a scorer first and foremost but even when he tries to pass he isn't anything special.

[chips93]

Good post my man

Says a lot about how much an "image" can perceive the average fans opinion.

is english your first language?

[tontoz]

He has a long way to go to be as overrated as Melo. It is hard to be heavily overrated on a lousy team that isnt in a big market.

[RIP CITY]

I like Irving alot but he is becoming alittle overrated. But he's far from the most overrated player in the League. Tough call on who is the most overrated, but I'd say Blake Griffin right now, with Kevin Love not far behind.

[Uncle Drew]

You have to add Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis to that list. It's funny how they're viewed as checkers while Irving isn't, even though they average more assists than him.
Kyrie > Deron

[The JKidd Kid]

Kyrie > Deron

Derons better at every part of the game, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

[LBJMVP]

Deron Williams averaged 9 assists with Kris Humphries as his best player. Team mates arnt an excuse for low assist numbers, lack of play making ability is.

that was also derons 7th season in the game.....

that team was filled with high fg/three point percentage shooters as well.

cleveland literally has had no deep shooters in the two year irving played expect who? anthony parker and an always injured boobie gibson?

[LBJMVP]

You don't need to have good passers to have good assists numbers.

Irving is a scorer first and foremost but even when he tries to pass he isn't anything special.


completely false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s26uLHAEwIo

as for the score first label on irving... who else did you expect to score on cleveland?

also... imo i'd rather have irving than westbrook on my team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5RT3gXX2gc

last three minutes of this game was god like.

[Jameerthefear]

completely false.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s26uLHAEwIo

as for the score first label on irving... who else did you expect to score on cleveland?

also... imo i'd rather have irving than westbrook on my team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5RT3gXX2gc

last three minutes of this game was god like.
Always loved the Cavs commentators. They're outstanding.

[yeaaaman]

After Kobe of course.

Since drafting him.
Cleveland 202: 21-45(.318)
Cleveland 2013: 24-58(.292)

No improvement as a team into year 2. They actually got worse.

"But he was hurt!!!!"

Here is Clevelands record with him playing.

2012: 17-34(.333)
2013: 19-40(.322)

Alright a LITTLE better, but still only winning about 33% of the games, in otherwords still garbage.

He was hurt for almost the entirety of his college career too. This guy is just injury prone. He makes no impact defense, he requires the ball in his hands to do anything. What is so good about this guy. Doesn't effect the win totals at all. Another small ball dominant guard that doesn't make the impact to winning that Sportscenter and uneducated fans would lead you to believe.

That's probably true about a lot of good players you know

[RedBlackAttack]

That's probably true about a lot of good players you know
Yep. Just happens to be completely untrue when it comes to Irving. Elite spot-up shooters should automatically be excluded from a "can't do anything without the ball" conversation. You leave Irving open at any area of the floor on the offensive end and he'll make you pay... Which is why the Irving/Waiters duo is an interesting one, because Waiters handles the ball very well for a 2-guard. And now Jack is in the mix.

All of that will benefit Irving because of his ability to come off screens and shoot.

[secund2nun]

Great thread. Irving is yet another overrated PG in the league like Rose. Uneducated fans who blindly believe whatever propaganda hype ESPN puts out is who primarily obsessed over PGs. I bet most of this board thinks Irving is better than Anthony Davis, which is insane.

[Smoke117]

I don't know about the most overrated player in the league, but he has gotten way too much ass kissing for a guy who has dominated on a team going nowhere. You don't matter till you actually do something on a winning team and a contender. A lot of players could do what he did on the Cavs.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't know about the most overrated player in the league, but he has gotten way too much ass kissing for a guy who has dominated on a team going nowhere. You don't matter till you actually do something on a winning team and a contender. A lot of players could do what he did on the Cavs.
A lot of 20-year-olds could average 23 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds on 45/86/40 percentages? Really?

It's strange that there have been so few who've actually done it, in that case.

[Cali Syndicate]

A lot of 20-year-olds could average 23 points, 6 assists, 4 rebounds on 45/86/40 percentages? Really?

It's strange that there have been so few who've actually done it, in that case.

Nope. Irving's a special breed of talent. People are just hatin.

[SpaceJammeR]

kyrie is beast. and still young which is scary. watch that highlight vs okc and you can see that all those guys respect irving already.

[sixer6ad]

This Tony dude sits at home in his parents' basement, dreams up ways to piss people off with ridiculous statements, and then sits back and laughs while 4 pages of responses come flowing in.

Congratulations Tony! Shock posting at it's best.

For those of you who simply love the game and love to have some conversations about the game, ignore this doorknob. He's a tool.

LEAVE HIM ALONE AND HE WILL GO AWAY.

[branslowski]

He's already hedging his bets...

"unless you have multiple all-stars/elite players on your team"

...this means any success the Cavs will have from this point forward will be attributed to his teammates. Bet on it. Like I said, I love that Kyrie now has a devoted band of detractors. That's a great sign so early in his career.

This.:cheers:

He's gonna join, Kobe, Jordan, and LeBron hate territory hopefully one day. If he wins with a nice star sidekick and Role players, haters and trolls will try to discredit him. It is what it is. Kyrie is a monster, and OP is a trolling product of inbred mating.

[chips93]

Yep. Just happens to be completely untrue when it comes to Irving. Elite spot-up shooters should automatically be excluded from a "can't do anything without the ball" conversation. You leave Irving open at any area of the floor on the offensive end and he'll make you pay... Which is why the Irving/Waiters duo is an interesting one, because Waiters handles the ball very well for a 2-guard. And now Jack is in the mix.

All of that will benefit Irving because of his ability to come off screens and shoot.

he cuts really well off of the ball too

when andy was healthy almost every game he would get a backdoor layup off of faking a handoff with andy at the high post.

that was one of the few aspects of byrons offense that i really liked.

[PickernRoller]

This Tony dude sits at home in his parents' basement, dreams up ways to piss people off with ridiculous statements, and then sits back and laughs while 4 pages of responses come flowing in.

Congratulations Tony! Shock posting at it's best.

For those of you who simply love the game and love to have some conversations about the game, ignore this doorknob. He's a tool.

LEAVE HIM ALONE AND HE WILL GO AWAY.

He won't. He runs ISH's viewing traffic - revenue for Jeff and has like 10 alternate accounts waiting for him if this accounts get banned. As a matter of fact he uses them daily. Electric slide, thabiso among a thousand more.

[TheMan]

Better question...Is TonyMontana the biggest troll/worst poster here at ISH?

A resounding YES!!

Like sixer6ad said, let's ignore this ******...

[Haks]

Already a great shooter/slasher/finisher and very clutch. I think the niggaths who doubt his passing abilities I think will be proven wrong this yr. I dnt expect his scoring average to increase but im expecting his efficiency to increase to the high 40s. 23/8.5/4 on 48/43/87 seems about right

[Frozen1]

This ***** is just good to stuff his own stat sheet. At 19 years old he is more injury prone than Dwyane Wade.

[Budadiiii]

He's getting there.

Rondo is still the king. Irving may surpass Rondo this year as the perspective of Rondo changes without the big 3.

Expect Irving to have another injury filled season and the majority of his brain damaged fans spouting nonsense similar to this... "he's so young and has so much POTENTIAL... did you see the game where he scored a lot of points???? They lost the game and the guy he was guarding had the best game of his career, but did you see that REVERSE LAYUP? :bowdown:, this guy is the FUTURE... just wait till he returns from injury, he's gonna take over the league!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!1111111!"

[Haks]

He's getting there.

Rondo is still the king. Irving may surpass Rondo this year as the perspective of Rondo changes without the big 3.

Expect Irving to have another injury filled season and the majority of his brain damaged fans spouting nonsense similar to this... "he's so young and has so much POTENTIAL... did you see the game where he scored a lot of points???? They lost the game and the guy he was guarding had the best game of his career, but did you see that REVERSE LAYUP? :bowdown:, this guy is the FUTURE... just wait till he returns from injury, he's gonna take over the league!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!1111111!"
Rondos 2012 playoff run>>>>>>>>>anything westbrick has ever achieved

[Nezty]

He's second, Andrew Wiggins is the most, hasn't even played one game in the NBA yet and everyone keeps bugging about him.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He was asked to play off the ball last year because Cleveland needed someone to put points on the board. Of course, Sarcastic wouldn't understand that :oldlol:

[fos]

He is certainly overrated. He's more shooting guard than point guard and is a below average defender.

[Haks]

He is certainly overrated. He's more shooting guard than point guard and is a below average defender.
Wrong he is a horrendous defender

[Doranku]

Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the league.

Dude gets top 3, MVP kinda talk despite having done ABSOLUTELY nothing since he came in the league. He's been on a very deep and talented Clippers team the past two years and has one playoff win, a first round exit, and a second round sweep to show for it.

I'll take Westbrook, Kyrie, and Parker over CP3 all day.

[Nezty]

Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the league.

Dude gets top 3, MVP kinda talk despite having done ABSOLUTELY nothing since he came in the league. He's been on a very deep and talented Clippers team the past two years and has one playoff win, a first round exit, and a second round sweep to show for it.

I'll take Westbrook, Kyrie, and Parker over CP3 all day.



You're crazy, CP3 is a lot Better than Westbrook.

[The JKidd Kid]

Chris Paul is the most overrated player in the league.

Dude gets top 3, MVP kinda talk despite having done ABSOLUTELY nothing since he came in the league. He's been on a very deep and talented Clippers team the past two years and has one playoff win, a first round exit, and a second round sweep to show for it.

I'll take Westbrook, Kyrie, and Parker over CP3 all day.

Kyrie over CP3? Are you high? Kyrie is the definition of one-dimensional. He's a bad passer and one of the worst defenders in the league, while CP3 is excellent at both. I would honestly have a hard time choosing Kyrie over Holiday, let alone CP3 or any of the other elite PGs.

[Doranku]

Kyrie over CP3? Are you high? Kyrie is the definition of one-dimensional. He's a bad passer and one of the worst defenders in the league, while CP3 is excellent at both. I would honestly have a hard time choosing Kyrie over Holiday, let alone CP3 or any of the other elite PGs.

He's not a bad passer, he's one of the best shooters in the league, and he's insanely clutch. He's only been in the league for two years... his defense will improve.

Only knock I have about Kyrie is his health. He seems to be a bit injury prone, but then again Chris Paul isn't exactly an ironman either.

[Greg Oden 50]

You're crazy, CP3 is a lot Better than Westbrook.

never pass out of 2nd round :roll:

[I.R.Beast]

Chris Paul is...

[The JKidd Kid]

He's not a bad passer, he's one of the best shooters in the league, and he's insanely clutch. He's only been in the league for two years... his defense will improve.

Only knock I have about Kyrie is his health. He seems to be a bit injury prone, but then again Chris Paul isn't exactly an ironman either.

5 assists to 3 turnovers says he is a bad passer. Kyrie is as one dimensional a player can get. At least Melo can rebound and is an average defender. Kyrie is well below average at everything other than scoring.

[Uncle Drew]

5 assists to 3 turnovers says he is a bad passer. Kyrie is as one dimensional a player can get. At least Melo can rebound and is an average defender. Kyrie is well below average at everything other than scoring.
Kyrie > Deron

[DukeDelonte13]

this must be your first troll alt.

[KOBE143]

That title belong to LeBron..

Dude is King of Asterisk.. MVP*, FMVP*, Rings* everything about LeBron has an asterisk.. Even his Most Popular Player award has asterisk.. I mean he only won coz Kobe was injured and Rose didnt play a single game..

[RedBlackAttack]

this must be your first troll alt.
He's been on a Kyrie troll-a-thon as of late. Like I said earlier, the fact that Kyrie is already putting together a strong band of trolls/haters is a good sign going forward. All great players have them.

[Hoopz2332]

:lol @ cavs fans for thinking this dude could be on lebron's level. Dude is not a winner.

[Frozen1]

19 PPG on 38% FG, with a 3-6 record. Right on Monta Ellis level.

The stats are not the worse, it

[Lebron23]

[QUOTE=Frozen1]19 PPG on 38% FG, with a 3-6 record. Right on Monta Ellis level.

The stats are not the worse, it

[Lebron23]

:lol @ cavs fans for thinking this dude could be on lebron's level. Dude is not a winner.

Who said that?

[La Frescobaldi]

He's no longer the best player under 23. George, Davis, and even Demarcus Cousins are having a better season than him. So far he didn't look good under Mike Brown's system.
Why is Mike Brown a NBA coach? Just dismal bad

[Lebron23]

Why is Mike Brown a NBA coach? Just dismal bad

I got two words for you Lebron James. Mike is just an average coach.

[Hoopz2332]

Who said that?


realcavsfans:lol

[Greg Oden 50]

kyrie irving has the worst d in the leauge.........even more liabilty on d than jose calderon :facepalm

[La Frescobaldi]

Irving is one of the most talented men with the ball I've ever seen. If he studies and absorbs tape of these guys - not of them scoring, but playmaking and away from the ball - he can be literally an all-time great:
Walt Frazier, Calvin Murphy, Larry Bird - passing, and away from the ball fundamentals can never be studied enough. These guys are good studies because they were all torrid scorers and get zero recognition for the true greatness they were doing without the ball.
For defense? SAME GUYS + the famous D guys like Glove, Dumars, etc.

[KungFuJoe]

Kyrie is shooting under 40% for the season... :eek:

I know new system and all, but wow...what's going on with him?

[Mass Debator]

Not overrated but probably the most hyped at the moment due to potential (dude is 21) and ball-handling flair. I don't think anyone claims him as the best point guard in the league or even top 3. We all do have a preference though and many will say they prefer Kyrie over Westbrook, Rondo, or whoever. I have no problem with that. This is a guy who always happen to shine in big moments. As a first time all-star, he overtook the entire weekend and showed why he belonged with the best of them.

Who I always found overrated is Luol Deng. He's just average at everything who plays a lot of minutes. Tries to do the right things on defense and rely on his length. Solid player but I don't see him as a 2x all-star.

[DukeDelonte13]

Kyrie is shooting under 40% for the season... :eek:

I know new system and all, but wow...what's going on with him?


he's being forced to exert energy on D.

He's made defensive plays this season I haven't seen him do the past years.


Kyrie is acting like a spoiled brat at times and when things don't go his way he plays stupid. He has a lot of growing up to do and I'm happy that Mike Brown isn't letting him get away with the same bullsh*t that Byron let him get away with.

[DukeDelonte13]

realcavsfans:lol


realcavsfans went from being a respectable place for cavs fans to talk about the squad to a blight on the cavs fan community. It's really become an embarrassment especially over the past two seasons. Much more intelligent cavs discussions between cavs fans are buried in troll threads on ISH.

[CavaliersFTW]

he's being forced to exert energy on D.

He's made defensive plays this season I haven't seen him do the past years.


Kyrie is acting like a spoiled brat at times and when things don't go his way he plays stupid. He has a lot of growing up to do and I'm happy that Mike Brown isn't letting him get away with the same bullsh*t that Byron let him get away with.
^- bingo

[CavaliersFTW]

:lol @ cavs fans for thinking this dude could be on lebron's level. Dude is not a winner.
Nobody ever said that.

[Qwyjibo]

Why do people still use "he is not a winner" and team record as big factors when evaluating individual players? Why not use actual critcisms of their game and/or production? Smarten the **** up and stop using that as if it means something.

So when Kobe was winning titles with Shaq, he was a winner. Then when Shaq left and before Gasol, did he suddenly lose this mystical innate "winner" ability? What happened there? Maybe is it because teams win games and not individual players? Same goes for Kyrie or any other very good player on a bad team.

It'll be funny when after this season Kevin Love sheds the stupid "but he's not a winner!" thing because he simply had a good and healthy team around him.

[chips93]

With Irving you have to have him dominate the ball, and cater to him.

he has let waiters and jack initiate a lot of the offense so far this season.

after getting a stop, you'll often see him look at the rebounder, and point at waiters/jack, telling him to let waiters/jack start the offense.

and obviously, as RBA says hes an elite shooter. on top of that hes a very smart cutter. him and andy have great chemistry on dribble handoffs/backdoor plays

[CavaliersFTW]

Why do people still use "he is not a winner" and team record as big factors when evaluating individual players? Why not use actual critcisms of their game and/or production? Smarten the **** up and stop using that as if it means something.

So when Kobe was winning titles with Shaq, he was a winner. Then when Shaq left and before Gasol, did he suddenly lose this mystical innate "winner" ability? What happened there? Maybe is it because teams win games and not individual players? Same goes for Kyrie or any other very good player on a bad team.

It'll be funny when after this season Kevin Love sheds the stupid "but he's not a winner!" thing because he simply had a good and healthy team around him.
:applause:

[chips93]

Dude is not a winner.

dirk was 33 years old, and holding a championships trophy, before some fools would admit that he was a 'winner' or that you could win a title with him as your best player.

are you really ready to say kyrie isnt a winner, when hes only 21 years old? i mean... come on.

[Legends66NBA7]

It'll be funny when after this season Kevin Love sheds the stupid "but he's not a winner!" thing because he simply had a good and healthy team around him.

Minnesota would have to win a title for him to shed the "he's not a winner" perception. I highly doubt that would happen.

Although, I already get what your saying.

[Qwyjibo]

Minnesota would have to win a title for him to shed the "he's not a winner" perception. I highly doubt that would happen.

Although, I already get what your saying.
What I think will happen is:

Minnesota makes a couple playoff appearances and people shutup about Love. Their management doesn't do anything to improve the team and they get stuck in the "Atlanta zone" where they do nothing but make the 1st or 2nd round. Then the "see! Love isn't a winner!" talk comes back.

Always blame the best player on the team even though they are likely the last reason for a team's failure.

[Leftimage]

he's being forced to exert energy on D.

He's made defensive plays this season I haven't seen him do the past years.


Kyrie is acting like a spoiled brat at times and when things don't go his way he plays stupid. He has a lot of growing up to do and I'm happy that Mike Brown isn't letting him get away with the same bullsh*t that Byron let him get away with.

From what I've seen the guy is real douche with the worst sense of entitlement. I'm hoping he can overcome that but sometimes personality flaws are harder to fix than even physical shortcomings.

Dude needs to lighten up a little.

[Legends66NBA7]

What I think will happen is:

Minnesota makes a couple playoff appearances and people shutup about Love. Their management doesn't do anything to improve the team and they get stuck in the "Atlanta zone" where they do nothing but make the 1st or 2nd round. Then the "see! Love isn't a winner!" talk comes back.

Yeah, I think that happens too. Could relate this to Kevin Garnett's time in Minnesota too. Really, the only problem I've found with Love is him staying healthy.

[Legends66NBA7]

Always blame the best player on the team even though they are likely the last reason for a team's failure.

That's more of the case of the best player being held accountable at a high standard. Sometimes it's not right, but they always will be the one's to get the highest praised and blame.

In Love's case (as well Irving), they need to perform in the playoffs too. If they play well, it's hard to really blame them (in regards to people following their games), but if they don't play well or even play horribly, then you can see the blame being justified.

[scm5]

Kyrie was rated so high because of his fantastic rookie season and his improvement his sophmore season.

He wasn't even ranked amongst the Top 5 PG's last season, but it was assumed that he would make it there very soon. We all knew about his defensive deficiencies.

He has a great skillset and with most players, defense develops later on in theri careers.

I can't say that he's overrated because I feel like most people just thought he would eventually develop into something great and that's why he people rate him so high. He still might get there, it's very early in his career.

[Hoopz2332]

Nobody ever said that.


On real cavsfans they have said it plenty of times:oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

On real cavsfans they have said it plenty of times:oldlol:
I've never seen that online community but I would imagine if people are saying that there I'd be suspicious they weren't just Lebron stans and trolls pretending to be Cavs fans for a laugh to make Cavs fans look bad. I've never actually talked to anyone who's even suggested that idea and I live in the GCA. Also, link?

[Hoopz2332]

I've never seen that online community but I would imagine if people are saying that there I'd be suspicious they weren't just Lebron stans and trolls pretending to be Cavs fans for a laugh to make Cavs fans look bad. I've never actually talked to anyone who's even suggested that idea and I live in the GCA. Also, link?


They're actually Cavs fans blinded by lebron hate.:lol They really do think Kyrie is or can be better than lebron.

[Hoopz2332]

realcavsfans went from being a respectable place for cavs fans to talk about the squad to a blight on the cavs fan community. It's really become an embarrassment especially over the past two seasons. Much more intelligent cavs discussions between cavs fans are buried in troll threads on ISH.

:applause:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

On real cavsfans they have said it plenty of times:oldlol:
Link?

[chips93]

I've never seen that online community but I would imagine if people are saying that there I'd be suspicious they weren't just Lebron stans and trolls pretending to be Cavs fans for a laugh to make Cavs fans look bad. I've never actually talked to anyone who's even suggested that idea and I live in the GCA. Also, link?

somewhere in here, a couple posters do say they think he could be better than lebron

http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?38471-Kyrie-Irving/page643



irregardless, why is the opinion of posters on another board, a worthy talking point on this, the greatest nba messageboard in the universe?

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie looks to me like he's caught in a netherworld between wanting (or being forced) to become more of an all-around point guard, which includes using his skillset to get teammates open looks instead of scoring opportunities for himself and actually giving an effort defensively, while still maintaining his scoring prowess when he wants it.

I think he's finding out that it's not that easy just to "turn it on" when he wants, especially when he's exerting more energy on the defensive side of the ball. I have to say, I'm still not all that concerned about his low shooting percentages. He is missing a lot of open looks in the mid-long range that he made at a pretty good clip in his first two years. I have to think it's just a matter of time before his shots start falling.

A bigger concern is how hard the Cavs, in general, are having to scratch and claw for every point, every basket. Nothing is coming easy for this team and it hasn't mattered who is running the offense, be it Kyrie, Jack, Waiters or whoever.

They look like a group of guys who don't know how to play together. I'm hoping it is just growing pains of what is the second youngest roster in the NBA. They seem like they're going in too many directions at one time without a clear sense of consistency. One minute, they're feeding Tristan on the block. Then, when Bynum is in the offense runs through him. Other times, Kyrie and Dion are walking the ball down and forcing up low percentage shots or attacking the basket while the rest of the team stands and watches.

I think, in order to get out of this funk, the Cavs need to start playing faster. Push the tempo. That goes against Mike Brown's defensive principles, I know, but we've got to get this team out of the shooting slump. Again, it's not just Kyrie, it's the whole team.

[RedBlackAttack]

realcavsfans went from being a respectable place for cavs fans to talk about the squad to a blight on the cavs fan community. It's really become an embarrassment especially over the past two seasons. Much more intelligent cavs discussions between cavs fans are buried in troll threads on ISH.
It's just like any other forum... You have your good posters and bad ones. I don't really think it has changed much over the last couple years, except for maybe getting bigger... And anytime a forum gets bigger, it will attract trolls (ISH is a perfect example).

There are still good convos over there from time to time, though I admit I haven't been on there as much this year as previous seasons.

[Purch]

Yeah, I think that happens too. Could relate this to Kevin Garnett's time in Minnesota too. Really, the only problem I've found with Love is him staying healthy.
However you have to remember that KG never played with as elite and accomplished a coach as Love has in Rick Adelman. When Adelman molds the roster to get players that fit his system, his offenses become elite and his defenses are always above average. I think youre seeing the product of that now.

[Greg Oden 50]

dirk was 33 years old, and holding a championships trophy, before some fools would admit that he was a 'winner' or that you could win a title with him as your best player.

are you really ready to say kyrie isnt a winner, when hes only 21 years old? i mean... come on.

never leds his team to the playoffs :facepalm

[Greg Oden 50]

He's been on a Kyrie troll-a-thon as of late. Like I said earlier, the fact that Kyrie is already putting together a strong band of trolls/haters is a good sign going forward. All great players have them.

18ppg,7 apg on 37 fg% is not an all stars:no:

[Meticode]

Kyrie looks to me like he's caught in a netherworld between wanting (or being forced) to become more of an all-around point guard, which includes using his skillset to get teammates open looks instead of scoring opportunities for himself and actually giving an effort defensively, while still maintaining his scoring prowess when he wants it.

I think he's finding out that it's not that easy just to "turn it on" when he wants, especially when he's exerting more energy on the defensive side of the ball. I have to say, I'm still not all that concerned about his low shooting percentages. He is missing a lot of open looks in the mid-long range that he made at a pretty good clip in his first two years. I have to think it's just a matter of time before his shots start falling.

A bigger concern is how hard the Cavs, in general, are having to scratch and claw for every point, every basket. Nothing is coming easy for this team and it hasn't mattered who is running the offense, be it Kyrie, Jack, Waiters or whoever.

They look like a group of guys who don't know how to play together. I'm hoping it is just growing pains of what is the second youngest roster in the NBA. They seem like they're going in too many directions at one time without a clear sense of consistency. One minute, they're feeding Tristan on the block. Then, when Bynum is in the offense runs through him. Other times, Kyrie and Dion are walking the ball down and forcing up low percentage shots or attacking the basket while the rest of the team stands and watches.

I think, in order to get out of this funk, the Cavs need to start playing faster. Push the tempo. That goes against Mike Brown's defensive principles, I know, but we've got to get this team out of the shooting slump. Again, it's not just Kyrie, it's the whole team.
A decent article about the situation in Cleveland...

http://www.chatsports.com/cleveland-cavaliers/a/Kyrie-Irving-Company-What-the-Cavs-must-do-2-8805538

[chips93]

never leds his team to the playoffs :facepalm

did you intend to quote somebody else? or did my point just go completely over your head? because you didnt address anything i said.

[TonyMontana]

hopefully the doubters have realized that when TonyMontana speaks, you listen.

Kyrie Irving is an ESPN top ten plays player, not a franchise player. If the Cavs are ever going to be a relevant team, it's going to have to come from elsewhere.

[RedBlackAttack]

18ppg,7 apg on 37 fg% is not an all stars:no:
He hasn't been an All-Star this year... Not even close. I've been one of his biggest critics, in fact.

He was an All-Star last year.

How about posting in your regular account? Man up.

PS: Purposely using horrific grammar and misspelling things does not automatically equal being funny. In fact, your whole persona is pretty played out.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

hopefully the doubters have realized that when TonyMontana speaks, you listen.

Kyrie Irving is an ESPN top ten plays player, not a franchise player. If the Cavs are ever going to be a relevant team, it's going to have to come from elsewhere.

:applause:

[RedBlackAttack]

:applause:
ISH, meet a TonyMontana confirmed alt. Has anything ever been more obvious?

This isn't the first time said account has appeared moments after a TM post to tell the board how hard he owns...


Tony Montana owning Kobe stans like always

http://31.media.tumblr.com/d1f087f590fb1aea74b44c4cf0145f9e/tumblr_mh5rmfFqFN1rezizro1_500.gif

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8901432

[HoopsFanNumero1]

ISH, meet a TonyMontana confirmed alt. Has anything ever been more obvious?

This isn't the first time said account has appeared moments after a TM post to tell the board how hard he owns...



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8901432

Um, okay. If you can prove it, be my guest. Ask Jeff to do an IP check or whatever it is you guys do.

Let's be honest, you're just upset that OP turned to be right. After all your bragging about how Kyrie was gaining "haters", it's gotta be hard to admit that.

LOL. And you even negged me. I guess when your favorite superstar can't produce, you start throwing out accusations.

Edit: This is also why I'm not a fan of mods having the power to ban users. You most likely would have banned me and probably anybody else that disagrees with you.

[RedBlackAttack]

Um, okay. If you can prove it, be my guest. Ask Jeff to do an IP check or whatever it is you guys do.

Let's be honest, you're just upset that OP turned to be right. After all your bragging about how Kyrie was gaining "haters", it's gotta be hard to admit that.

LOL. And you even negged me. I guess when your favorite superstar can't produce, you start throwing out accusations.

Edit: This is also why I'm not a fan of mods having the power to ban users. You most likely would have banned me and probably anybody else that disagrees with you.
1. My post had nothing to do with OP or his trolling act. I just think it's funny that you always seem to be there, cheering him on... Usually just after he posts.

2. Yes, let's be honest... Kyrie Irving is still considered one of the very best young players in the league despite his sluggish first 8 games to the season. People tend to go with a little larger sample size, but only those who think logically. I am concerned about his recent play, though. I don't need a troll to tell me it hasn't been good. I actually watch the games (I'm sure he has yet to see the Cavs play this season) and, if you've paid attention, you'd have seen me being more critical of him than most others.

3. Yes, I negged you. Because I believed and still believe you're an alt account. Also, I haven't seen anything from you which would warrant a positive reputation comment. I've always been very straight-forward with who I neg... It was pretty obvious that I did it, right?

4. I wouldn't ban you on a hunch. I would have banned your other account, though (TonyMontana) the night he made the same thread 80+ times in under an hour. That was pretty pathetic.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

1. My post had nothing to do with OP or his trolling act. I just think it's funny that you always seem to be there, cheering him on... Usually just after he posts.

2. Yes, let's be honest... Kyrie Irving is still considered one of the very best young players in the league despite his sluggish first 8 games to the season. People tend to go with a little larger sample size, but only those who think logically. I am concerned about his recent play, though. I don't need a troll to tell me it hasn't been good. I actually watch the games (I'm sure he has yet to see the Cavs play this season) and, if you've paid attention, you'd have seen me being more critical of him than most others.

3. Yes, I negged you. Because I believed and still believe you're an alt account. Also, I haven't seen anything from you which would warrant a positive reputation comment. I've always been very straight-forward with who I neg... It was pretty obvious that I did it, right?

4. I wouldn't ban you on a hunch. I would have banned your other account, though (TonyMontana) the night he made the same thread 80+ times in under an hour. That was pretty pathetic.

Wow, you have so much evidence against me. I posted a smiley saying I agree with him. That's some great logic you got going on. Let's look at some other posts on the front page. Let's see. Scholar here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9133937&postcount=15) posted a smiley. I guess he's an alt too :rolleyes:

Like I said, get some proof or STFU. I don't like being accused by some bitch-made poster who I wasn't conversing with in the first place.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wow, you have so much evidence against me. I posted a smiley saying I agree with him. That's some great logic you got going on. Let's look at some other posts on the front page. Let's see. Scholar here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9133937&postcount=15) posted a smiley. I guess he's an alt too :rolleyes:

Like I said, get some proof or STFU.
First of all, I called it a hunch. You don't need proof for a hunch. Secondly, I'll continue posting as much as I like.

Third, STFU.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

First of all, I called it a hunch. You don't need proof for a hunch. Secondly, I'll continue posting as much as I like.

Third, STFU.

I don't see a hunch here:

ISH, meet a TonyMontana confirmed alt. Has anything ever been more obvious?

Maybe you should actually learn what a hunch is.

[KingLeBronJames]

After Kobe of course.

Since drafting him.
Cleveland 202: 21-45(.318)
Cleveland 2013: 24-58(.292)

No improvement as a team into year 2. They actually got worse.

"But he was hurt!!!!"

Here is Clevelands record with him playing.

2012: 17-34(.333)
2013: 19-40(.322)

Alright a LITTLE better, but still only winning about 33% of the games, in otherwords still garbage.

He was hurt for almost the entirety of his college career too. This guy is just injury prone. He makes no impact defense, he requires the ball in his hands to do anything. What is so good about this guy. Doesn't effect the win totals at all. Another small ball dominant guard that doesn't make the impact to winning that Sportscenter and uneducated fans would lead you to believe.
LOL @ Kobe is overrated. Get outta here with that bullsh*t.

[RedBlackAttack]

Maybe you should actually learn what a hunch is.
Are you familiar with the term "hyperbole"?

If not, look it up.


I wouldn't ban you on a hunch.

[imdaman99]

i dont like the hype kyrie gets either, but im willing to wait a few weeks before jumping on his season :facepalm

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Are you familiar with the term "hyperbole"?

If not, look it up.

That was in your second post. Did you see me quote your second post? That's right, no. So don't bring it up.

Also, you being a mod and all, I'd expect you not to be making accusations based on hunches.

[red1]

redblackattack owning tonymontana like always

http://31.media.tumblr.com/d1f087f590fb1aea74b44c4cf0145f9e/tumblr_mh5rmfFqFN1rezizro1_500.gif

[RedBlackAttack]

That was in your second post. Did you see me quote your second post? That's right, no. So don't bring it up.

Also, you being a mod and all, I'd expect you not to be making accusations based on hunches.

Well, I did. Deal with it.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Well, I did. Deal with it.

Oh I am. Just wanted to call you out on your bitch-ass behavior.

[RedBlackAttack]

Oh I am. Just wanted to call you out on your bitch-ass behavior.
You're actually not dealing with it very well. You've whined about me being a mod at least 3 times already. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Just accept it and move forward.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

You're actually not dealing with it very well. You've whined about me being a mod at least 3 times already. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Just accept it and move forward.

Nah. If you weren't a mod, then people in the real world would have to put up with you. At least this way, you're only a burden on the internet community.

[Pointguard]

There is some obvious distraction going on with Kyrie.

If a game was tied and you gave the ball to one player in an iso at half court, I would only take Durant above Kyrie (tho, I would take Curry in most situations). Kyrie's a real player. His passing is better than given credit for as well, but is subject to moods. He can get to any part on the court as good as anybody. Defense needs work. I don't think he's overrated.

[RedBlackAttack]

There is some obvious distraction going on with Kyrie.

If a game was tied and you gave the ball to one player in an iso at half court, I would only take Durant above Kyrie (tho, I would take Curry in most situations). Kyrie's a real player. His passing is better than given credit for as well, but is subject to moods. He can get to any part on the court as good as anybody. Defense needs work. I don't think he's overrated.
I'm not sure it's distraction, unless trying on defense and trying to become more of a playmaker can be considered a 'distraction.'

It just seems like more of a run-of-the-mill shooting slump combined with a new group of guys trying to figure out how to coexist under a new system.

At the end of the day, it isn't quite as bad as it seems. As poorly as he's shooting the ball right now, he's still averaging 20/7/4+, his turnovers are slightly down and his defense has been much better. It hasn't been pretty, but he's still having periods of extreme effectiveness. The scoring consistency just hasn't been there.

[Pointguard]

I'm not sure it's distraction, unless trying on defense and trying to become more of a playmaker can be considered a 'distraction.'

It just seems like more of a run-of-the-mill shooting slump combined with a new group of guys trying to figure out how to coexist under a new system.

At the end of the day, it isn't quite as bad as it seems. As poorly as he's shooting the ball right now, he's still averaging 20/7/4+, his turnovers are slightly down and his defense has been much better. It hasn't been pretty, but he's still having periods of extreme effectiveness. The scoring consistency just hasn't been there.
No, not like that. Its an off the court issue/distraction, like his girl is pregnant or something is bothering him. I don't think its an on the court issue. He went off in a day dream in the Bulls game twice. I don't see him a lot but I highly doubt he does that on the regular. When I saw before I thought he might have gained too much weight but I'm thinking its different now.

I don't think he's having issues with the coach either.

[RedBlackAttack]

No, not like that. Its an off the court issue/distraction, like his girl is pregnant or something is bothering him. I don't think its an on the court issue. He went off in a day dream in the Bulls game twice. I don't see him a lot but I highly doubt he does that on the regular. When I saw before I thought he might have gained too much weight but I'm thinking its different now.

I don't think he's having issues with the coach either.
Meh, I never buy into stuff like this unless there is a concrete lead on something off the court. I'm not saying that off the court stuff doesn't affect these guys... I'm sure it does. But, I have no reason to believe that it is something not related to basketball, and that's after having watched every single one of his professional games.

I never bought into the Delonte West excuse for James, either.

[DukeDelonte13]

i dont like the hype kyrie gets either, but im willing to wait a few weeks before jumping on his season :facepalm

a little early season overreaction is understandable but people are failing to realize that the cavs are trying to transition between Night and Day coaching strategy. It'll take some time before things start to gel.

I don't think guys like Kyrie, Dion, Bennett, ever were really forced to play defense before.

IMO those guys on the team need to make the biggest adjustments to their games.

Bennett's playing decent on the defensive end but we are getting nothing out of him offensively. Dion and Kyrie both kinda go in an out. They'll string together a couple nice possessions on both ends and then get lazy for a few. They will probably get there but its not going to be pretty to watch.

[DukeDelonte13]

Meh, I never buy into stuff like this unless there is a concrete lead on something off the court. I'm not saying that off the court stuff doesn't affect these guys... I'm sure it does. But, I have no reason to believe that it is something not related to basketball, and that's after having watched every single one of his professional games.

I never bought into the Delonte West excuse for James, either.


I full on believe that Delonte and James did have a beef with one another but i think the real distraction during that playoff series was the issues between James and Coach Brown. I think both Lebron and Brown have matured a lot since then, with James playing more consistently on the defensive end and being more willing to be coached and Mike Brown not taking any sort of bullsh*t from any player.

[Pointguard]

Meh, I never buy into stuff like this unless there is a concrete lead on something off the court. I'm not saying that off the court stuff doesn't affect these guys... I'm sure it does. But, I have no reason to believe that it is something not related to basketball, and that's after having watched every single one of his professional games.

I never bought into the Delonte West excuse for James, either.
Just so that we are clear, a distraction is a temporary thing that pulls you away from what you are focusing on. Not something that is going to change his career or year. The reason I think its off the court because I seen the guy confused, Shumpert had him second guessing like crazy in his first year, and Kyrie seems to be a guy that goes at his on the court problems aggressively. Apparently, you don't think he's that way. He's more like Wall than Rose in that way?

[La Frescobaldi]

I full on believe that Delonte and James did have a beef with one another but i think the real distraction during that playoff series was the issues between James and Coach Brown. I think both Lebron and Brown have matured a lot since then, with James playing more consistently on the defensive end and being more willing to be coached and Mike Brown not taking any sort of bullsh*t from any player.
Brown is not an NBA level head coach.

[FireDavidKahn]

He is suffering from Kevin Love syndrome. Surrounded by a team so bad that no matter how good you play your team still losses. Maybe in 3 years (hopefully sooner:( ) the Cavs will finally have a good team and people will appreciate Kyrie more.

[chips93]

No, not like that. Its an off the court issue/distraction, like his girl is pregnant or something is bothering him. I don't think its an on the court issue. He went off in a day dream in the Bulls game twice. I don't see him a lot but I highly doubt he does that on the regular. When I saw before I thought he might have gained too much weight but I'm thinking its different now.

I don't think he's having issues with the coach either.

fwiw, he has had a couple embarrassing things from his personal life go public, and it never seemed to effect his play
. he was blackmailed/catfished by some girl while at duke, some pics got out of him with some girls when he still had a gf, who wasnt happy about it. these things went public, and no doubt were an embarrassment. if off court distractions could hurt his game, it would have happened then.

so i dont see why it would hurt his game now, if it didnt before.


He is suffering from Kevin Love syndrome. Surrounded by a team so bad that no matter how good you play your team still losses. Maybe in 3 years (hopefully sooner:( ) the Cavs will finally have a good team and people will appreciate Kyrie more.

:wtf:

so how come this wasnt a problem the last two years?

[RedBlackAttack]

Just so that we are clear, a distraction is a temporary thing that pulls you away from what you are focusing on. Not something that is going to change his career or year. The reason I think its off the court because I seen the guy confused, Shumpert had him second guessing like crazy in his first year, and Kyrie seems to be a guy that goes at his on the court problems aggressively. Apparently, you don't think he's that way. He's more like Wall than Rose in that way?
Ockham's razor tells me that the simplest answer is usually the correct one. If there is some kind of actual factual story about his personal life being in some temporary turmoil, I'd buy into what you are saying.

But, let's look at what we know about the situation in Cleveland...

A. The whole team's offense is struggling, not just Kyrie. The Cavs are dead last in the league in team FG% at 40.8-percent. That includes guys that are usually very efficient from the field. Kyrie is one of those players, but not the only one.

B. There is a new coaching staff in place attempting to completely change the culture of the team to be more defensive-minded and less focused on trying to outscore opponents.

C. The lineup has changed dramatically from last year. The additions of Earl Clark, Andrew Bynum and Jarrett Jack, along with drafting Anthony Bennett and Sergey Karasev have put five new faces on the bench and on the floor. Those guys are still trying to get acclimated to the team/system.

D. On top of that, you have guys who were on the team together in past years like Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters and Andreson Varejao who, because of injuries at different points in the past couple seasons, have not played together much at all and it shows when they're on the floor together.

E. Because of the new coach/philosophy and because he's trying to grow as a player, Kyrie is clearly trying to become more of a playmaker and all-around threat (including defensively). He has had some success too, as evidenced by his improvement in the assist/turnover ratio and by not being horrible defensively so far as he was in years past. But, it has forced him to reinvent himself and not be so focused on scoring.


I take all of these factors into account and the most logical explanation I find for Kyrie's shooting woes in the first nine games seems, to me, is an amalgamation of everything. That's why I don't think it will last. He'll eventually become more comfortable in his new role, his teammates will eventually become more comfortable playing together and the system will become more ingrained and these guys will have to think less about what they're doing out there.

I'm not sure if it will eventually result in this team being as good as many people (myself included) thought they could be, but I'll be shocked if Kyrie's inefficiency lasts all season or even half the season.




That's my take. You could be totally right about a personal problem being a factor, but I just need some kind of proof. That wouldn't explain why the whole team is struggling with efficiency, though.

[Pointguard]

Ockham's razor tells me that the simplest answer is usually the correct one. If there is some kind of actual factual story about his personal life being in some temporary turmoil, I'd buy into what you are saying.

But, let's look at what we know about the situation in Cleveland...

A. The whole team's offense is struggling, not just Kyrie. The Cavs are dead last in the league in team FG% at 40.8-percent. That includes guys that are usually very efficient from the field. Kyrie is one of those players, but not the only one.

B. There is a new coaching staff in place attempting to completely change the culture of the team to be more defensive-minded and less focused on trying to outscore opponents.

C. The lineup has changed dramatically from last year. The additions of Earl Clark, Andrew Bynum and Jarrett Jack, along with drafting Anthony Bennett and Sergey Karasev have put five new faces on the bench and on the floor. Those guys are still trying to get acclimated to the team/system.

D. On top of that, you have guys who were on the team together in past years like Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters and Andreson Varejao who, because of injuries at different points in the past couple seasons, have not played together much at all and it shows when they're on the floor together.

E. Because of the new coach/philosophy and because he's trying to grow as a player, Kyrie is clearly trying to become more of a playmaker and all-around threat (including defensively). He has had some success too, as evidenced by his improvement in the assist/turnover ratio and by not being horrible defensively so far as he was in years past. But, it has forced him to reinvent himself and not be so focused on scoring.


I take all of these factors into account and the most logical explanation I find for Kyrie's shooting woes in the first nine games seems, to me, is an amalgamation of everything. That's why I don't think it will last. He'll eventually become more comfortable in his new role, his teammates will eventually become more comfortable playing together and the system will become more ingrained and these guys will have to think less about what they're doing out there.

I'm not sure if it will eventually result in this team being as good as many people (myself included) thought they could be, but I'll be shocked if Kyrie's inefficiency lasts all season or even half the season.

That's my take. You could be totally right about a personal problem being a factor, but I just need some kind of proof. That wouldn't explain why the whole team is struggling with efficiency, though.

I would have to go with what you are saying. I thought he looked distracted which is a different look than trying to figure things out but I could be wrong. I work with at-risk and sidetracked young men and it might be carrying over. Its ok to be distracted, everybody goes thru something and certainly nobody escapes this world without it.

fwiw, he has had a couple embarrassing things from his personal life go public, and it never seemed to effect his play
. he was blackmailed/catfished by some girl while at duke, some pics got out of him with some girls when he still had a gf, who wasnt happy about it. these things went public, and no doubt were an embarrassment. if off court distractions could hurt his game, it would have happened then.

so i dont see why it would hurt his game now, if it didnt before.
Doesn't this happen to everybody in the internet age??? Your life is really good if that is something you think that should affect a person's professional life. A young man with money will see much more drama than that - sex life, babies and health are things you might worry about and definitely could affect you, even if you are tough skinned.

[secund2nun]

Guards especially PGs are overrated. Low IQ fans drooled over him because he is "flashy" and "sexy" and sportscenter told them he is a superstar (he is not even a star, let alone a superstar).

You had people say they would rather build around Irving (build around a pg..wtf) over elite young big men like Davis and Drummond.

[secund2nun]

Why do people still use "he is not a winner" and team record as big factors when evaluating individual players? Why not use actual critcisms of their game and/or production? Smarten the **** up and stop using that as if it means something.

So when Kobe was winning titles with Shaq, he was a winner. Then when Shaq left and before Gasol, did he suddenly lose this mystical innate "winner" ability? What happened there? Maybe is it because teams win games and not individual players? Same goes for Kyrie or any other very good player on a bad team.

It'll be funny when after this season Kevin Love sheds the stupid "but he's not a winner!" thing because he simply had a good and healthy team around him.

Kobe is not a winner that's why. He is Tmac without the injuries and a career full of staked teams.

PGs don't lead to titles. The idea of Irving being a superstar is laughable. There is only one superstar PG in the NBA and that's CP3.

[Greg Oden 50]

Kobe is not a winner that's why. He is Tmac without the injuries and a career full of staked teams.

PGs don't lead to titles. The idea of Irving being a superstar is laughable. There is only one superstar PG in the NBA and that's CP3.

that's why lebron james is overrated too :rockon:

[comerb]

Ive watched a fair amount of him and hes a terrible defender

That's an understatement.

[Hoopz2332]

:oldlol:

[PJR]

Not only is Kyrie Irving overrated, but all high usage little 6'2-ish point guards who have no impact on the game defensively are overrated.

Big playmakers > little playmakers

[nathanjizzle]

Not only is Kyrie Irving overrated, but all high usage little 6'2-ish point guards who have no impact on the game defensively are overrated.

Big playmakers > little playmakers

false

[PJR]

false

It's not false at all.

Small ball dominating point guards are entirely overrated. Why? Because Defenses can align themselves against those little shrimps. You can pressure the point guard high on the floor and move the ball away from whomever you want to shut down. And if you have a capable bigger/taller defender to put on them who can hold their own? It's a wrap.

There's a reason in the last 40 years, only one team with a small guard as their clear cut go to guy has won a title. And he was a different breed of a player/leader (Zeke).

[nathanjizzle]

It's not false at all.

Small ball dominating point guards are entirely overrated. Why? Because Defenses can align themselves against those little shrimps. You can pressure the point guard high on the floor and move the ball away from whomever you want to shut down. And if you have a capable bigger/taller defender to put on them who can hold their own? It's a wrap.

There's a reason in the last 40 years, only one team with a small guard as their clear cut go to guy has won a title. And he was a different breed of a player/leader (Zeke).

Why? Because Defenses can align themselves against those little shrimps.

this is the reason why point gaurds offensive responsibility offsets their lack of defensive responsibility. They have mobility and speed the the other 4 positions dont have, they can get anywhere on the court with the ball so they have the ability to move defenses around and have the defense attention when they have the ball. This creates plays.

?And if you have a capable bigger/taller defender to put on them who can hold their own?

thats false, just because lebron locked down rose, and thats lebron... he didnt lock down tp or russell westrbook did he? and lets not forget that if you put lebron on the pointgaurd then who ever lebron should have been guarding now has an advantage over a weaker defender thats not lebron.

There's a reason in the last 40 years, only one team with a small guard as their clear cut go to guy has won a title. And he was a different breed of a player/leader (Zeke)
youre using a "clear cut" go to guy which i would assume be in a clutch time to value pointgaurds on team effectiveness? the game is played 48 minutes, not the seconds in clutch time. tony parker, chauncey billups won championships, and no one can win a championship by themselves, not even lebron is winning championships by himself, nor jordan.

[PJR]

this is the reason why point gaurds offensive responsibility offsets their lack of defensive responsibility. They have mobility and speed the the other 4 positions dont have, they can get anywhere on the court with the ball so they have the ability to move defenses around and have the defense attention when they have the ball. This creates plays.



You can get mobility and speed from other positions. Bigger playmakers, who can see over the defense are always more valuable than a smaller lead guards. Smarten up.

Tex Winter and Phil Jackson basically proved how overrated the small ball dominating point guard was with the triangle offense.


And LeBron most certainly did lock up Tony Parker. WTF, did you watch the last two games of the Finals? :oldlol:

[nathanjizzle]

You can get mobility and speed from other positions. Bigger playmakers, who can see over the defense are always more valuable than a smaller lead guards. Smarten up.

Tex Winter and Phil Jackson basically proved how overrated the small ball dominating point guard was with the triangle offense.


And LeBron most certainly did lock up Tony Parker. WTF, did you watch the last two games of the Finals? :oldlol:

you're not getting the same speed and mobility from a sg or a forward as you would with a pg. and are you saying in general that sg and forwards are better passers and playmakers than a pg? false.

[The JKidd Kid]

Kobe is not a winner that's why. He is Tmac without the injuries and a career full of staked teams.

PGs don't lead to titles. The idea of Irving being a superstar is laughable. There is only one superstar PG in the NBA and that's CP3and Westbrook.

Maybe Curry if he continues to play well.

[secund2nun]

that's why lebron james is overrated too :rockon:

Except he's not.

[secund2nun]

false

Truth. It is what it is. Let go of the delusion of Rose being a superstar.

Jit PGs= overrated

[secund2nun]

[B]There's a reason in the last 40 years, only one team with a small guard as their clear cut go to guy has won a title. And he was a different breed of a player/leader (Zeke)
youre using a "clear cut" go to guy which i would assume be in a clutch time to value pointgaurds on team effectiveness? the game is played 48 minutes, not the seconds in clutch time. tony parker, chauncey billups won championships, and no one can win a championship by themselves, not even lebron is winning championships by himself, nor jordan.

Detroit was a well balanced team like Indy is this year. Duncan was the main man on that Spurs team. The guy means the best player and it means a team that is clearly dragged by that player. Duncan was the man on the Spurs and by far the best player. The Detriot players were all of a similar level- no
"the man" there.

If a PG is your best player you won't win a title, unless it's a rare huge freakish PG like Magic.

[Legends66NBA7]

There's a reason in the last 40 years, only one team with a small guard as their clear cut go to guy has won a title. And he was a different breed of a player/leader (Zeke).

I agree, but he had a great team too.

[hawkfan]

The Cavs should look to trade back for Andre Miller.
He could help Irviing's game as a crafty veteran.

[Heavincent]

Kobe is not a winner

The guy with 5 rings isn't a winner...

Only on ISH would you read something like that.

[RedBlackAttack]

So, this thread was bumped, but no mention of his game tonight?

I'll do the honors then.... Second night of a back-to-back on the road with the team supposedly in turmoil and missing key guys...

41 points (14-28 FG, 4-7 3PT, 9-9 FT)
5 assists
4 rebounds
2 steals

Had 7 key points in overtime to seal the win. Credit where it's due and I've been hyper-critical of Kyrie this year. He was terrific tonight.

[Budadiiii]

So, this thread was bumped, but no mention of his game tonight?

I'll do the honors then.... Second night of a back-to-back on the road with the team supposedly in turmoil and missing key guys...

41 points (14-28 FG, 4-7 3PT, 9-9 FT)
5 assists
4 rebounds
2 steals

Had 7 key points in overtime to seal the win. Credit where it's due and I've been hyper-critical of Kyrie this year. He was terrific tonight.
:applause:

[BlazerRed]

So, this thread was bumped, but no mention of his game tonight?

I'll do the honors then.... Second night of a back-to-back on the road with the team supposedly in turmoil and missing key guys...

41 points (14-28 FG, 4-7 3PT, 9-9 FT)
5 assists
4 rebounds
2 steals

Had 7 key points in overtime to seal the win. Credit where it's due and I've been hyper-critical of Kyrie this year. He was terrific tonight.
Uncle Drew :applause:

[Hoopz2332]

Cavs fans on Kyrie's selfishness:oldlol:




It is a joke at the end of games. Kyrie never looks to pass, he always thinks he needs to be the hero. If we blow this lead at the end against NO he should take full responsibility. He has such an ego it is unbelievable.

http://www.cavfanatic.com/forums/cavsnbabasketball_game-information_kyrie-needs-learn-trust-his-teamates

Kyrie is a 2 guard trying to be a point:facepalm

[Meticode]

Cavs fans on Kyrie's selfishness:oldlol:





http://www.cavfanatic.com/forums/cavsnbabasketball_game-information_kyrie-needs-learn-trust-his-teamates

Kyrie is a 2 guard trying to be a point:facepalm
Irving has the ability to play the point, it's just that Brown is letting this happen at the end of games. We blow a 12 point lead with over 4 minutes left because we move away from what got us that lead (ball movement). Then it turns into the Irving ball-pounding show.

I was so pissed I Tweeted several players including Gilbert about the disgruntlement. It'll fall on deaf ears, but god damn I don't care...

"@KyrieIrving @RealTristan13 @cavsdan @dionwaiters3 Tired of games lost this way. Do what got you the lead. BALL MOVEMENT! Not ball pounding!"

[Meticode]

Another...


@KyrieIrving @RealTristan13 @cavsdan @dionwaiters3 What does Brown draw up at the end of games when all we see is hero ball via Irving? #mad

[chips93]

Irving has the ability to play the point, it's just that Brown is letting this happen at the end of games. We blow a 12 point lead with over 4 minutes left because we move away from what got us that lead (ball movement). Then it turns into the Irving ball-pounding show.

if kyrie wanted, he could call for a pick, and that would get some player movement, get the defense rotating, and one of his teammates could get open.

but he doesnt

kyrie has never passed in the clutch.

[RedBlackAttack]

if kyrie wanted, he could call for a pick, and that would get some player movement, get the defense rotating, and one of his teammates could get open.

but he doesnt

kyrie has never passed in the clutch.
I'm certain this is all Mike Brown's fault.

[TonyMontana]

Not only is Kyrie Irving overrated, but all high usage little 6'2-ish point guards who have no impact on the game defensively are overrated.

Big playmakers > little playmakers

This has been one of my selling points since I joined the site. Glad people are starting to catch on.

If your paying a point guard who only effects one side of the floor 10+ million your going to be at a severe disadvantage when competing for a championship.

That's why a guy like Mario Chalmers is my ideal PG. He does everything you need from the position at a quarter of the price. I want to use the big bucks on the frontcourt and athletic wings with size. I'll let other teams pay for a premium at point guard. :roll:

[Hoopz2332]

http://i.imgur.com/wixlMvO.png

https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/statuses/405132004670185472

:eek:

[HoopsFanNumero1]

http://i.imgur.com/wixlMvO.png

https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/statuses/405132004670185472

:eek:

But... But, he's gonna lead the Cavs to the Finals.

[moe94]

Maybe we should stop listening to Bill Simmons until he learns how to shoot better than a 5 year old kid.

[RedBlackAttack]

Maybe we should stop listening to Bill Simmons until he learns how to shoot better than a 5 year old kid.
This is the same guy who pleaded with the Cavs to take Derrick Williams over Kyrie, also. His track record regarding Irving is not good.

But, yeah... Now seems like the perfect time to give up on a 21-year-old player averaging 22 points, 7 assists and 4 rebounds through his first 14 games this year. Why not?

Who is "overrating" him, btw? Pretty much every ranking I've seen has him somewhere between 5-10 in the point guard rankings... usually around 7 or so. That's right about where he belongs, atm.

[chips93]

But, yeah... Now seems like the perfect time to give up on a 21-year-old player averaging 22 points, 7 assists and 4 rebounds through his first 14 games this year. Why not?

its not giving up on him, its waiting for him to earn it.

[RedBlackAttack]

its not giving up on him, its waiting for him to earn it.
This board is currently brimming with criticism when it comes to Kyrie. He hasn't been as bad this year as some are asserting. The Cavs are currently a mess while they adjust to a new system and try to figure out who will be playing what role. He's been a part of that mess at times, but I wouldn't say he's the cause of it, just a product of it.

Still, the guy is putting up 22/7 on 42% shooting. I know stats aren't everything and I've been critical of Kyrie myself at times this year, but people are going a little too far. He is still among a very short list of young NBA players that any NBA franchise would love to have.

Simmons needs to stick to talking about the Celtics. I wonder if he's even seen the Cavs play this year?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Who is "overrating" him, btw? Pretty much every ranking I've seen has him somewhere between 5-10 in the point guard rankings... usually around 7 or so. That's right about where he belongs, atm.
ESPN had him really high iirc.

[CelticBaller]

http://i.imgur.com/wixlMvO.png

https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/statuses/405132004670185472

:eek:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FINrSIGga7U/UmAJVVcvLPI/AAAAAAAABW8/LBDkcBaSUHM/s1600/Antonio-Banderas-computer-you-got-me-yospos-reaction-13677939419.gif

[entropy35]

ESPN had him really high iirc.
they had him in the top 10 NBA players this season. :lol

[Lebron23]

they had him in the top 10 NBA players this season. :lol


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[poido123]

Wow, some real Kyrie haters on ISH :lol

I enjoy watching him play, mad handles and you can tell he's got something special.

I think it comes down to the team meshing better as a team. Cleveland has made quite a few changes to personnel over the summer, so while Kyrie is the leader and is the first to cop the blame, he should be given some leeway too. Teams with lots of talent and personnel changes will take longer to adjust, it's just natural. The Heat took a year or two to start clicking like they are now.

[KobeClutchAsFK]

Let's be real. Mike Brown is the problem with Cleveland, not Kyrie putting up 22/7

[Hoopz2332]

Let's be real. Mike Brown is the problem with Cleveland, not Kyrie putting up 22/7

kyrie is all style and no substance.

[Hoopz2332]

http://i.imgur.com/Ak3UMbT.jpg

[Frozen1]

This guy is a chucker, and a cancer for his team. Sub .300 winning percentage, that tells everything.

Already running Dion Waiters out of town.

[chips93]

This board is currently brimming with criticism when it comes to Kyrie. He hasn't been as bad this year as some are asserting. The Cavs are currently a mess while they adjust to a new system and try to figure out who will be playing what role. He's been a part of that mess at times, but I wouldn't say he's the cause of it, just a product of it.

Still, the guy is putting up 22/7 on 42% shooting. I know stats aren't everything and I've been critical of Kyrie myself at times this year, but people are going a little too far. He is still among a very short list of young NBA players that any NBA franchise would love to have.

Simmons needs to stick to talking about the Celtics. I wonder if he's even seen the Cavs play this year?

my points is though, from a neutral fans perspective, kyrie hasnt really earned all that much. hes put up great stats, and im sure he will get in the right environment to put up wins.

but there is a standard, and that is that until your team has won something, your stats dont mean much.

kyrie gets a lot of exposure for a guy who hasnt won anything.

[LakersFan626]

Kobe is not a winner that's why. He is Tmac without the injuries and a career full of staked teams.

PGs don't lead to titles. The idea of Irving being a superstar is laughable. There is only one superstar PG in the NBA and that's CP3.

Um, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose...

[The JKidd Kid]

Um, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose...

Nope only CP3. The other guys are way to out of control and chuck too much to be superstars.

[alenleomessi]

guys like love and irving will always be criticized.. deservedly so
you cant win with them

[Hoopz2332]

Kyrie Irving Will Be a Top-10 Superstar, but Right Now He's Simply Overrated | Bleacher Report

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1854636-kyrie-irving-will-be-a-top-10-superstar-but-right-now-hes-simply-overrated

[Meticode]

Kyrie Irving Will Be a Top-10 Superstar, but Right Now He's Simply Overrated | Bleacher Report

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1854636-kyrie-irving-will-be-a-top-10-superstar-but-right-now-hes-simply-overrated
Good article, I pretty much agree with everything posted.

He has so much pressure on him and he's only 21 years old. As the article said, last year he became the second player in 15 years to get to the all-star game before his 21st birthday.

I'd be senior in college right now if he stayed.

There's a large adjustment period becuase Mike Brown is changing so many things and it's night and day the way Scott and Brown ran the team. I can either hope for one of two things. Either the players adjust, or Brown is ousted.

[Nuff Said]

Man **** kyrie Irving he's killing me in my league. Bitch ***** needs to grab his balls and play right. No more Uncle Drew commercials until you can ball like that on the real court ***** *****.

[Pointguard]

One sure sign that a player is beginning to arrive is the formation of a group of haters (and I despise that word). There are a couple of posters here now devoting significant time to disparaging Irving. I expect that number to grow as he continues to improve.

This is a great sign. :cheers:
Hating, has to do with the flash/excitment of the player, So Irving will leap frog just about everybody once he starts winning. At least with Irving you can tune into some excitement which the league is kind of lacking.

[RedBlackAttack]

Kyrie had maybe his best all-around game as a pro tonight. He was completely in sync both offensively and defensively. He let the game come to him, made the play for a teammate when it was there and created opportunities for himself when that was there. He also competed hard defensively, an area of great improvement for him in the last several weeks.

He controlled the game and did so with great efficiency.

Oh, and the Cavs have won three-of-four and are 7-3 at home.

37 points (14-23 FG, 4-7 3PT, 5-6 FT)
11 assists
1 steal
1 turnover

It's beginning to come together. And, oh yeah... he's still 21. Strange that this thread was not bumped tonight (until now :pimp: ).

[RedBlackAttack]

Here are a few of his highlights from tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V09uO2ThWOg

Full highlights to come. I'll just post them in here for posterity. :D

[brandonislegend]

Kyrie always kills the Knicks lol

[cuad]

Kyrie had maybe his best all-around game as a pro tonight. He was completely in sync both offensively and defensively. He let the game come to him, made the play for a teammate when it was there and created opportunities for himself when that was there. He also competed hard defensively, an area of great improvement for him in the last several weeks.

He controlled the game and did so with great efficiency.

Oh, and the Cavs have won three-of-four and are 7-3 at home.

37 points (14-23 FG, 4-7 3PT, 5-6 FT)
11 assists
1 steal
1 turnover

It's beginning to come together. And, oh yeah... he's still 21. Strange that this thread was not bumped tonight (until now :pimp: ).
putting it all together against the knicks :applause:

[RedBlackAttack]

putting it all together against the knicks :applause:

Here he is crossing up poor Prigioni. He had a share of his points with Shumpert defending too, though... He just always explodes on the Knicks it seems.


This wasn't just a Knicks thing, though... something is happening with this team. They are just starting to look so much better all the way around. It started with a win over the Bulls and then snapping the Nuggets seven game winning streak. Chemistry, confidence... whatever it is, they're starting to get it.

EDIT: forgot the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFNIZjE04iU

[Nuff Said]

Here are a few of his highlights from tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HYUEgzhMLE

Full highlights to come. I'll just post them in here for posterity. :D
:bowdown:

[TheCorporation]

Irving feasting while Chandler is out.

[RedBlackAttack]

Sorry for the delay...

Kyrie Irving - 37 points, 11 assists, 1 turnover vs. Knicks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gNA9AIutB0)

His most complete game as a pro.

[RedBlackAttack]

Very odd that this thread hasn't been bumped by the above posters in so long. This thing was getting a lot of use in mid-to-late November.

Anyway, as a public service, I'll update the board on how things are going.

Tonight: 39 points (13-25 FG, 2-7 3PT, 10-11 FT), 6 assists, 4 blocks, 3 rebounds


Last 5 Games:

30.2 points (49.1% FG, 38.9% 3PT, 93.5% FT)
7.0 assists
2.0 rebounds
1.6 steals
0.8 blocks
2.0 turnovers

Cavs have won 6 of 9 games and are 8-4 at home.

Full Kyrie Irving highlights from tonight's game to come, but here's the appetizer...

Kyrie Irving's Big-time Block | Bucks vs Cavaliers | December 20, 2013 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8oITqDdv-g)

http://abload.de/img/kyrieblock19pfz.gif

There was also this little tidbit from tonight's game...


CLEVELAND -- Kyrie Irving pushed himself so hard he nearly vomited while sitting on the bench in the fourth quarter.

A flu bug couldn't stop him, and neither could the Bucks.

Irving made four free throws in the final 21.5 seconds of overtime and finished with 39 points despite being sick, leading the Cleveland Cavaliers to a 114-111 win over short-handed Milwaukee on Friday night.

Irving spent the previous two days at home on the couch, trying to shake off an illness that flattened him. He missed practice Thursday and almost sat out the game before deciding to leave his house about two hours before tipoff. The All-Star guard wound up playing 43 minutes and added six assists and four blocks while carrying the Cavs to their fifth win in six home games.

"I'm tired," Irving said afterward. "I really just want to lay down right now."

:cheers:

[Rameek]

This kid went from what HS to the NBA. He is going to need time to learn how to play the game. Right now its I score or nothing. He'll learn to pick his spots and get his teammates to help take the load off.

[RedBlackAttack]

This kid went from what HS to the NBA. He is going to need time to learn how to play the game. Right now its I score or nothing. He'll learn to pick his spots and get his teammates to help take the load off.
Part of his early season struggles were him trying to become a better all-around player for exactly the reason you cite. And, it seems to be paying off. Like I said, during this nice run of games for the Cavs, not only is his scoring over 30 points per on very nice efficiency, but he's averaging 7 assists against just 2 turnovers for a nice A/TO ratio.

He's starting to get it. Even his defensive intensity and effort has improved by quite a bit. He still has his moments where he falls asleep, but hey... guy is only 21 and he's being asked to carry a lot of the offensive load.

[DukeDelonte13]

Part of his early season struggles were him trying to become a better all-around player for exactly the reason you cite. And, it seems to be paying off. Like I said, during this nice run of games for the Cavs, not only is his scoring over 30 points per on very nice efficiency, but he's averaging 7 assists against just 2 turnovers for a nice A/TO ratio.

He's starting to get it. Even his defensive intensity and effort has improved by quite a bit. He still has his moments where he falls asleep, but hey... guy is only 21 and he's being asked to carry a lot of the offensive load.


he's starting to drive and kick a little more and he's doing a better job at managing his energy level. Hopefully he'll be ok tonight.

[Illuminati]

Tony

:bowdown:

[Meticode]

Part of his early season struggles were him trying to become a better all-around player for exactly the reason you cite. And, it seems to be paying off. Like I said, during this nice run of games for the Cavs, not only is his scoring over 30 points per on very nice efficiency, but he's averaging 7 assists against just 2 turnovers for a nice A/TO ratio.

He's starting to get it. Even his defensive intensity and effort has improved by quite a bit. He still has his moments where he falls asleep, but hey... guy is only 21 and he's being asked to carry a lot of the offensive load.
We think we know what's going on, but we really don't. Check back over 5+ weeks later and this paragraph rings a totally different tone.

[DMAVS41]

No, like many young players, he needs to find the right situation.

Imagine Irving being coached by Pop...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Imagine Irving being coached by Pop...

Game.Set.Match.

[houston]

yea he is