"Dare you to shoot it" Defense.....

[9erempiree]

Besides Lebron is there any other player in history, or currently will fall under this category?

Here are the current players that I would play this kind of defense on:

Rondo
Westbrook

[ThickassGlasses]

The problem with this thread so far is that everyone you have mentioned you HAVE to play that kind of defense or they will get to the rim at will. You can act like it's an insult to LeBron, but it's more a compliment for how good he is.

[9erempiree]

The problem with this thread so far is that everyone you have mentioned you HAVE to play that kind of defense or they will get to the rim at will. You can act like it's an insult to LeBron, but it's more a compliment for how good he is.

Actually, Rondo doesn't get to the rim as good as many think. It's not really a testament of how well they get to the rim. It's that they suck so bad at shooting that defenses play them this way.

[Marchesk]

The problem with this thread so far is that everyone you have mentioned you HAVE to play that kind of defense or they will get to the rim at will. You can act like it's an insult to LeBron, but it's more a compliment for how good he is.

Then again, Kobe isn't defended like that.

[WayOfWade]

(cough)Dwyane Wade(cough)

[9erempiree]

(cough)Dwyane Wade(cough)

Wade had a mean ass mid-range game for that one year but I don't know what happened. He was also hitting a lot of his mid-range in game 6 and 7 of last year's Finals.

[TonyMontana]

Kobe Bryant

-6/24
-41% shooting in cafeer elimination games
-39% in Game 7s

Yeah I'd dare him to shoot it

[9erempiree]

Then again, Kobe isn't defended like that.

It's a little tougher for Kobe. They send two guys at him as soon as he gets the ball.

If Kobe is bringing up the ball, 2 guys immediately come at him as he crosses half court.

[9erempiree]

Kobe Bryant

-6/24
-41% shooting in cafeer elimination games
-39% in Game 7s

Yeah I'd dare him to shoot it

Too bad that's not how Boston played him. They would send two guys at him every time he touches.

Bryant is so good that he can beat you in other aspects of the game such as defense and rebounding. He had 15 rebounds, 2nd most in the game and he was on the same court as Pau, Bynum and KG, three 7 footer rebounding machines. Pretty damn amazing.

[WayOfWade]

Wade had a mean ass mid-range game for that one year but I don't know what happened. He was also hitting a lot of his mid-range in game 6 and 7 of last year's Finals.
Game 6 of the Finals was another turd game for him; you might mean game 4 and 7. Still though, he's pretty much hit or miss these days, hot or cold, no inbetween. He really needs to get it consistent if he wants to last beyond next season.

[branslowski]

Kobe Bryant

-6/24
-41% shooting in cafeer elimination games
-39% in Game 7s

Yeah I'd dare him to shoot it

But, in those games, they didn't dare him to shoot.:facepalm

As oppose to them giving LeBron wideopen shots. It's no disrespect to Bron, but they'd rather him shoot jumpers than get to the rim and get foul calls. LeBron finishes better than anyone IMO. This is fact.

But if your still in trolling mode, let me know.:facepalm

[9erempiree]

Reggie Evans, another player like this.

I see those games where they dare him to shoot when he's out on top of the circle.

He would still shoot them.

:oldlol:

[TheReal Kendall]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/45fe0aa6c007fa8f3024ebd327c87aee/tumblr_mme7xacNUT1qk5jr2o1_500.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/shivadancing/lebron-smallest-violin.gif

[KyrieTheFuture]

I wouldn't exactly say it works considering he won two rings against dare you to shoot it defenses.

[leMVP]

1st, nope, but that's a 50-50 strategy, you hope he's off and misses, or you get burnt for doing that. latter happens more often than not. and in most important games he always find his jumper, game 6 against boston, game 7 against spurs, the whole series against pacers.

2nd, lebron's progress on his jumper has been very impressive, raising his FG% and 3pt% year after year, so in couple of years it's going to be virtually impossible to stop him or use any tactics like that. MJ-like.

3rd, to get to your main point of making this thread, Kobe is going to shoot jumpers till his arms fall off, and shoot his team out of games like he usually do, so if i where a coach and seeing player like kobe going to shoot until he dies, i'll be happy and let him shoot, other than fluke games where he's hot, he's going to shoot his team out of contest.

[branslowski]

Reggie Evans, another player like this.

I see those games where they dare him to shoot when he's out on top of the circle.

He would still shoot them.

:oldlol:

Basically If a team defended Kobe like Spurs defended Bron in game 7, Kobe would score 50pts thru 3 quarters easily, but teams aren't stupid enough to do that to Kobe. This also does not mean Kobe is a current better player than Bron, he isn't. But offensively, you fear Kobe far more than Bron and Pop showed that.

Spurs defended LeBron like they they defended Blake Griffin, and Marc Gasol with the ball in their hands at the top of the key. That speaks factual volumes.

[Nash]

Basically If a team defended Kobe like Spurs defended Bron in game 7, Kobe would score 50pts thru 3 quarters easily, but teams aren't stupid enough to do that to Kobe. This also does not mean Kobe is a current better player than Bron, he isn't. But offensively, you fear Kobe far more than Bron and Pop showed that.

Spurs defended LeBron like they they defended Blake Griffin, and Marc Gasol with the ball in their hands at the top of the key. That speaks factual volumes.
Eh, Pop defended Lebron like that because he would have a field day going to the rim if they didn't.

Nobody fears Kobe more than Lebron offensively. Lebron is more efficient and deadly with the pass, he'll always cause danger one way or the other. Kobe is an offensive player who has never even shot above 50%.

[2swift4u]

Rose might be such a player. I know his jump shot was getting better but it was still less dangerous than his speed to the basket.

[#number6ix#]

Who you rather
A) play up on him and allow him to drive pass you and attack the rack
B) double team him and allow for him to find open shooters
C) sag off of him and allow him to take low percentage long/midrange 2pt shots

I think it's pretty obvious what's the best choice

[Owl]

How you guard a guy is ALL about their relative abilities. Those who pretend that driving has nothing to do with it are living in a fantasy world.

Players you would play a step off are those who are better going the basket either because they are poor at shooting (Rondo, Ronnie Brewer) and/or because they are dangerous on the drive (Isiah Thomas).

Players you play tight are those you fear the shot more than the drive (Matt Bonner, Steve Novak).

LeBron is an elite driver and an improving, now quite good, shooter. You'd still prefer him to be shooting to barrelling down the lane and that will be reflected in how teams defend him.

Given the LeBron v Kobe comps lets work this out
the most important thing is combing usage and efficiency. This is reflected by usage and ts%. How teams guard players is factored in, insofars as teams will try to take away a players best option.

Kobe career usage: 31.8% career TS%: .555
very strong numbers for a wing

James career usage: 31.7%, career TS% .575
Historically elite elite numbers for a wing.

Take out their historically "should have been college" years if you like. Kobe's numbers go up a bit (mostly usage), LeBrons go up a quite a lot.

Basically even when LeBron was a below average shooter teams couldn't stop him getting good shots, they do even less so now.

[DuMa]

Pop fears Lebron driving to the hoop and causing foul trouble, collasping defense, open 3pt shooters MUCH more than he does a fadeaway shot from Kobe. Kobe stans spewing garbage again :facepalm

[Remix]

1st, nope, but that's a 50-50 strategy, you hope he's off and misses, or you get burnt for doing that. latter happens more often than not. and in most important games he always find his jumper, game 6 against boston, game 7 against spurs, the whole series against pacers.

2nd, lebron's progress on his jumper has been very impressive, raising his FG% and 3pt% year after year, so in couple of years it's going to be virtually impossible to stop him or use any tactics like that. MJ-like.

3rd, to get to your main point of making this thread, Kobe is going to shoot jumpers till his arms fall off, and shoot his team out of games like he usually do, so if i where a coach and seeing player like kobe going to shoot until he dies, i'll be happy and let him shoot, other than fluke games where he's hot, he's going to shoot his team out of contest.
in a couple of years he'll be in his 30s with fading athleticism.

[asdf1990]

Kobe Bryant

-6/24
-41% shooting in cafeer elimination games
-39% in Game 7s

Yeah I'd dare him to shoot it

what a clutch closer, all time clutchest player ever. clutchbe:roll:

[The_Yearning]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/45fe0aa6c007fa8f3024ebd327c87aee/tumblr_mme7xacNUT1qk5jr2o1_500.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/shivadancing/lebron-smallest-violin.gif

Holy shit look at the # of games MJ played in... imagine if dude didn't go to College.

[RRR3]

LeBron is not usually played like the way the Spurs played him. In the games I've watched him the past two years (and I've watched a lot of Heat games) he is generally guarded more closely on his jumpshots.

[dh144498]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/45fe0aa6c007fa8f3024ebd327c87aee/tumblr_mme7xacNUT1qk5jr2o1_500.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/shivadancing/lebron-smallest-violin.gif

all this tell me that MJ is better than Lebron. By age 28, MJ played 8 seasons, Lebron played 10 seasons.
:oldlol:

[WolfGang]

Tyreke Evans and Dwyane Wade. I never understood why players always fall for Wade's shot fakes.

[Rose'sACL]

Tyreke Evans and Dwyane Wade. I never understood why players always fall for Wade's shot fakes.
are you kidding me? Wade has one of the best fakes in the history of basketball. He is not as tall as kobe or Jordan which gives defenders even more confidence that they might be able to block it and he takes full advantage of that fact.

[GrapeApe]

It's pretty simple. A jumper is a lower percentage shot than a layup or dunk, regardless of how good the shooter is. You have to pick your poison with great offensive players. In most cases you'd rather them shoot jumpers (long 2's ideally) than allow penetration leading to easy scores, free throws, and foul trouble. Even young Kobe was often given room from the perimeter. This strategy has been used against nearly every star perimeter player at some point in their career.

[dannywpt]

Besides Lebron is there any other player in history, or currently will fall under this category?

Here are the current players that I would play this kind of defense on:

Rondo
Westbrook

This guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orks2RIt5mg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNJiUsBY2Cs

[CanYouDigIt]

Lebron
Rondo
Westbrook
Wade
Tyreke.....

I'll add Tony Parker (when beyond the arc), Brandon Jennings, and John Wall.

[Rose'sACL]

Westbrook is most probably the fastest star player to play basketball. I would give him jumper even if he was shooting well because driving to the rim is not only more efficient but also puts the team in foul trouble.
Same goes for LeBron, he is not a bad shooter but he will put your whole team in foul trouble if you let him drive to the rim. I think his eFG% from outside the paint must be at least 15% lower than in the paint even though 3s count more. it must still be decent but why would i let him drive to the rim and put my players who might be big offensive threats on the other end in foul trouble?

[Scholar]

I'd dare Bynum to shoot 3's all day.

[LT Ice Cream]

. . . And we all saw how well "dare you" defense worked in the finals this past season. Pick your poison.

[no pun intended]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjyCnfUUOFQ

/thread

[MisterAmazing]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/45fe0aa6c007fa8f3024ebd327c87aee/tumblr_mme7xacNUT1qk5jr2o1_500.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/shivadancing/lebron-smallest-violin.gif

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/supa-hot-fire.gif

[Marchesk]

. . . And we all saw how well "dare you" defense worked in the finals this past season. Pick your poison.

It worked well enough to give the Spurs an excellent chance to close out in game six. They just botched the job. Their fault they gave Lebron a game 7 to go off on.

[Marchesk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjyCnfUUOFQ

/thread

:roll: Dat pass!

[no pun intended]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

Didn't know Kobe retired.

[Smoke117]

(cough)Dwyane Wade(cough)

The funniest thing about Wade is that EVERYBODY falls for his fake. For a guy who's jump shot is so iffy and streaky it's hilarious how pretty much every player falls for it.

[Kuma]

Basically If a team defended Kobe like Spurs defended Bron in game 7, Kobe would score 50pts thru 3 quarters easily, but teams aren't stupid enough to do that to Kobe. This also does not mean Kobe is a current better player than Bron, he isn't. But offensively, you fear Kobe far more than Bron and Pop showed that.

Spurs defended LeBron like they they defended Blake Griffin, and Marc Gasol with the ball in their hands at the top of the key. That speaks factual volumes.

Actually, it tells you that players with different strengths will be defended differently to best nullify that player overall.

Kobe is much more of a shooting player, while LeBron is best at going to the rim, which explains why LeBron would be defended similarly to Gasol and Griffin.

You basically said in your argument that if teams give Kobe open shots all night, he will score 50 points, leaving him open quite clearly favours him in this instance. If you switch your argument around, you could easily say, 'if teams let LeBron have a free drive to the basket every time, he'd score 50+ points'.

[plowking]

But, in those games, they didn't dare him to shoot.:facepalm

As oppose to them giving LeBron wideopen shots. It's no disrespect to Bron, but they'd rather him shoot jumpers than get to the rim and get foul calls. LeBron finishes better than anyone IMO. This is fact.

But if your still in trolling mode, let me know.:facepalm

Exactly.

Which is why you can stick a 36 year old Ray Allen on him in 2010. You know he can't get by anyone, so you don't even need to waste your best defender on Kobe. Just stick anyone on him. You don't need a Danny Green or Leonard on him, since you're just wasting you're best defender.

[Smoke117]

Exactly.

Which is why you can stick a 36 year old Ray Allen on him in 2010. You know he can't get by anyone, so you don't even need to waste your best defender on Kobe. Just stick anyone on him. You don't need a Danny Green or Leonard on him, since you're just wasting you're best defender.


Ray Allen was never a bad defensive player on the Celtics. He never fell for fakes and he always got a hand in an opposing players face. He did a good job on Kobe in 2008 and 2010. He offers nothing as far as help/team defense, but as a one on one defender he gave a good effort. The reason he got this reputation as a bad defensive player is the fact that the Bucks and Sonics had no defensive culture. They were offensive teams that put little stock in defensive basketball.

[plowking]

Ray Allen was never a bad defensive player on the Celtics. He never fell for fakes and he always got a hand in an opposing players face. He did a good job on Kobe in 2008 and 2010. He offers nothing as far as help/team defense, but as a one on one defender he gave a good effort. The reason he got this reputation as a bad defensive player is the fact that the Bucks and Sonics had no defensive culture. They were offensive teams that put little stock in defensive basketball.

He was 36. :oldlol:

And clearly I'm trolling these idiots.

[Smoke117]

He was 36. :oldlol:

And clearly I'm trolling these idiots.


By 2010 Kobe was more likely to settle for a jump shot than he was driving to the basket. Besides that...Ray Allen was 34 in the 2010 finals...not 36.

[plowking]

By 2010 Kobe was more likely to settle for a jump shot than he was driving to the basket. Besides that...Ray Allen was 34 in the 2010 finals...not 36.

Trolling buddy... Trolling.

Settle petal.

[mugiwara]

Kobe Bryant

-6/24
-41% shooting in cafeer elimination games
-39% in Game 7s

Yeah I'd dare him to shoot it

:banana: your such ****ing **** :banana:

[pauk]

Unlike Rondo/Westbrook Lebron can shoot well... they dare him to shoot because they would rather take their chances there instead of having the best finisher in the game go for and1's and putting everybody in foul trouble and sucking in the defense inside to find wideopen shots for even better shooters than he is..... even if he was the greatest shooter of all time Lebron would still be "dared to shoot", he is that much greater driving to the rim creating for himself or for others...

What you did here was only complimenting Lebron....

[branslowski]

Exactly.

Which is why you can stick a 36 year old Ray Allen on him in 2010. You know he can't get by anyone, so you don't even need to waste your best defender on Kobe. Just stick anyone on him. You don't need a Danny Green or Leonard on him, since you're just wasting you're best defender.

So you stick anyone on the guy doing the most damage? Kobe in that series: 28.6ppg 8reb 4ast 2.1stls, No ones production touched that.

[Blue&Orange]

The problem with this thread so far is that everyone you have mentioned you HAVE to play that kind of defense or they will get to the rim at will. You can act like it's an insult to LeBron, but it's more a compliment for how good he is.
In what part of the playoffs did you saw Lebron going to the rim at will?

I got get some thickassglasses i'm missing things.

[Lebron23]

In what part of the playoffs did you saw Lebron going to the rim at will?

I got get some thickassglasses i'm missing things.


This piece of $hit is still hatin on LeBron. LeBron >> Knicks franchise. Suck it Bitch!!!

[branslowski]

This piece of $hit is still hatin on LeBron. LeBron >> Knicks franchise. Suck it Bitch!!!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[deja vu]

Shaq, Wilt Chamberlain, Ben Wallace.

Just kidding.

[AintNoSunshine]

There's nothing else the defense can do to Lebron, lesser evil I guess.

That's what you get when your arsenal is not limited to shooting fade away 3's because you can't get open no matter how many awkward crossovers you do.

Your boy can't compare to the 3 time MVP and reigning back to back champs and FMVP, get over it man

[PickernRoller]

This piece of $hit is still hatin on LeBron. LeBron >> Knicks franchise. Suck it Bitch!!!

No need to be upset.

...No one's gonna turn gay and take your boy from you. Might wanna check Pauk thou...he and Silk are after Lebron.

On topic: unskilled jump shooters are always dared to shoot. This of course includes Lebron. There is truth to the fact that if you have a weak front court Lebron is going to rape you in the glass. The Heat will spam pnr sets with Lebron and Wade alternating. It's the lesser of the two evils if you have a weak front court - like most teams in today's league. If you have a solid front court, with solid bigs that can guard the pnr then it's just a matter of exposing his deficiency more than anything else.

[HurricaneKid]

This is one of those funny K/L threads where the uninformed rule the roost. People here are suggesting that no one would ever dare defend Kobe like this because he is so much better of a shooter and a more rounded offensive player. The trouble is LeBron was a MUCH BETTER shooter this year than Kobe has EVER been.

Don't believe me? From 16-23ft LeBron shot .444 this year.

Here are Kobe's %s the last 12 years:
.402
.416
.374
.431
.434
.384
.425
.419
.384
.363
.411
.387

This year LeBron shot .406 from 3. Here are Kobe's 3FG% for his career, year by year:
.324
.303
.323
.329
.351
.361
.344
.347
.339
.327
.383
.250
.305
.319
.267
.341
.375

He has NEVER been CLOSE to either one of LBJ's 2012-13 shooting lines. Where Kobe does his damage is shooting his 12 foot fall away Js. But shooter? Not with those lines.

What people are failing to recognize is that metric minded FO and coaches are changing the way teams play the game. Offensively you want to get to the line, shoot corner 3s and get to the basket. So defensively, those are the spots you want to protect. You WANT the opposition to shoot 20 footers. Even the best ~20 ft shooter in the league (Bosh at .511) would lose a game to an AVERAGE offense. Just like you saw teams adopting Thibs' frontside help defense in recent years you will see teams adopting SAs rim/3 defensive structure. And everyone knows it. Thats why the first FAs to sign were all the shooters.

[IncarceratedBob]

This is one of those funny K/L threads where the uninformed rule the roost. People here are suggesting that no one would ever dare defend Kobe like this because he is so much better of a shooter and a more rounded offensive player. The trouble is LeBron was a MUCH BETTER shooter this year than Kobe has EVER been.

Don't believe me? From 16-23ft LeBron shot .444 this year.

Here are Kobe's %s the last 12 years:
.402
.416
.374
.431
.434
.384
.425
.419
.384
.363
.411
.387

This year LeBron shot .406 from 3. Here are Kobe's 3FG% for his career, year by year:
.324
.303
.323
.329
.351
.361
.344
.347
.339
.327
.383
.250
.305
.319
.267
.341
.375

He has NEVER been CLOSE to either one of LBJ's 2012-13 shooting lines. Where Kobe does his damage is shooting his 12 foot fall away Js. But shooter? Not with those lines.

What people are failing to recognize is that metric minded FO and coaches are changing the way teams play the game. Offensively you want to get to the line, shoot corner 3s and get to the basket. So defensively, those are the spots you want to protect. You WANT the opposition to shoot 20 footers. Even the best ~20 ft shooter in the league (Bosh at .511) would lose a game to an AVERAGE offense. Just like you saw teams adopting Thibs' frontside help defense in recent years you will see teams adopting SAs rim/3 defensive structure. And everyone knows it. Thats why the first FAs to sign were all the shooters.

Sample size.

The reason LeBron shoots so high is because he's wide open because everyone knows he can't shoot and they give him like 5 feet of room every time. The fact that he only makes .44 percent of wide open mid range shots should tell you something. Dude can't shoot

[PickernRoller]

Sample size.

The reason LeBron shoots so high is because he's wide open because everyone knows he can't shoot and they give him like 5 feet of room every time. The fact that he only makes .44 percent of wide open mid range shots should tell you something. Dude can't shoot

+ not every team has two solid perimeter defenders to keep one on Lebron and THEN another on Wade. Not that it matters. Arguing that Lebron is a better shooter/jump shooter than Kobe is crazy, borderline retarded and comical.

[Owl]

Sample size.

The reason LeBron shoots so high is because he's wide open because everyone knows he can't shoot and they give him like 5 feet of room every time. The fact that he only makes .44 percent of wide open mid range shots should tell you something. Dude can't shoot
Ah its obvious now. The reason LeBron shot well (or at least better than Kobe ever did) is because he's such a poor shooter. Well that clears that up.

Sad thing is Kobe is actually an efficient and high usage wing scorer (and that genuinely does include some high degree of difficulty shots, some would argue to many) but Kobe stans pick fights they can't win by making comparisons with LeBron.

[PickernRoller]

Ah its obvious now. The reason LeBron shot well (or at least better than Kobe ever did) is because he's such a poor shooter. Well that clears that up.

Sad thing is Kobe is actually an efficient and high usage wing scorer (and that genuinely does include some high degree of difficulty shots, some would argue to many) but Kobe stans pick fights they can't win by making comparisons with LeBron.

There was never a fight. Kobe wins by a landslide. Despite what stats might say. One can provide proper context to explain the stats(as it has been done here - objectively) or one can simply ignore it as the Lebron stans have done here. In the end no one gives two flying ****s and the fact remains that Kobe will always be twice the shooter Lebron could ever aspire to be. That's just a fact.

[HurricaneKid]

Sample size.

The reason LeBron shoots so high is because he's wide open because everyone knows he can't shoot and they give him like 5 feet of room every time. The fact that he only makes .44 percent of wide open mid range shots should tell you something. Dude can't shoot

Sample size? That is absurd. The sample for Kobe is his entire career. He has probably taken more 16-23 foot jumpers than anyone in the history of the game. The sample for LeBron is the entire season and 350 mid range shots. Thats an enormous sample.

It sounds like you said that because it sounds scientific and smart. Only it wasn't. AT ALL.

[HurricaneKid]

There was never a fight. Kobe wins by a landslide. Despite what stats might say. One can provide proper context to explain the stats(as it has been done here - objectively) or one can simply ignore it as the Lebron stans have done here. In the end no one gives two flying ****s and the fact remains that Kobe will always be twice the shooter Lebron could ever aspire to be. That's just a fact.

If anyone ever wants an understanding of why there is a backlash on Kobe this is a prime example of why. What you are saying is that Kobe is so much better a shooter than LeBron that he can take whatever jump shots he wants. So when his shooting falls hilariously short of LeBron's statistically you have two options. The first is to say that LeBron, based on his statistics was a far better shooter last year than Kobe has ever been. The second is to say Kobe has a terrible shot selection.

So which is it? Is he a good shooter than takes so many bad shots his shooting stats fall woefully short of his peers? Or is he just a bad shooter?

Because it HAS to be one or the other.

[PickernRoller]

If anyone ever wants an understanding of why there is a backlash on Kobe this is a prime example of why. What you are saying is that Kobe is so much better a shooter than LeBron that he can take whatever jump shots he wants. So when his shooting falls hilariously short of LeBron's statistically you have two options. The first is to say that LeBron, based on his statistics was a far better shooter last year than Kobe has ever been. The second is to say Kobe has a terrible shot selection.

So which is it? Is he a good shooter than takes so many bad shots his shooting stats fall woefully short of his peers? Or is he just a bad shooter?

Because it HAS to be one or the other.

No it doesn't have to be. If I fall for that I get buried and go into 10 page essays of subjective material that although objectively makes the clear and obvious case - "that there is no case" - eventually gets torn apart by trolling. That kind of shit I leave to jb and shaq attack etc - they love to write essays and waste their time doing so. The first mistake of some posters here was to consider that there was an argument. There is NONE. Efficiency =/= better shooter/being a better jump-shooter. First distinction that needs to made. Historically, stats prove that Kobe is/was better - on efficiency grounds alone. Eye test proves Kobe is FAR better. Context proves Kobe is FAR better. That's just that. 10 year olds can continue to argue non-sense.

[BoutPractice]

Ah its obvious now. The reason LeBron shot well (or at least better than Kobe ever did) is because he's such a poor shooter.
This. A textbook example of troll logic.

Some things worth pointing out:
- Kobe does take more difficult midrange shots than LeBron, but shot selection has at least as much to do with it as defense (you've watched him play enough to know that it's Kobe DECIDING to take those shots, not having to take them because of the defense), so I don't see how it counts as a positive. The bottom line is, at his best, LeBron shot a higher percentage from the same areas of the court than Kobe at his best.
- defensive strategy is about doing the best you can not to give up points no matter where they come from, meaning it's about making the attacker take the lowest percentage shots possible, relatively speaking. Statistically, LeBron is unstoppable when he gets to the rim. Therefore, defending him too close is suicidal. Giving him more room is a consequence of what he can do, not what he can't do.

[branslowski]

If anyone ever wants an understanding of why there is a backlash on Kobe this is a prime example of why. What you are saying is that Kobe is so much better a shooter than LeBron that he can take whatever jump shots he wants. So when his shooting falls hilariously short of LeBron's statistically you have two options. The first is to say that LeBron, based on his statistics was a far better shooter last year than Kobe has ever been. The second is to say Kobe has a terrible shot selection.

So which is it? Is he a good shooter than takes so many bad shots his shooting stats fall woefully short of his peers? Or is he just a bad shooter?

Because it HAS to be one or the other.

Good points but let me ask you this...

Do you think Dwight Howard is a better shooter than Steph Curry?

[BoutPractice]

Troll argument, again. We're talking about the same area of the court, you're comparing dunks and three pointers.

[PickernRoller]

Good points but let me ask you this...



Nikka you high or retarded?

NVM....

[HurricaneKid]

Efficiency =/= better shooter/being a better jump-shooter. First distinction that needs to made. Historically, stats prove that Kobe is/was better - on efficiency grounds alone. Eye test proves Kobe is FAR better. Context proves Kobe is FAR better. That's just that. 10 year olds can continue to argue non-sense.

So being a better shooter doesn't mean making more of the same shots? I seriously cannot even wrap my head around this.

You think that watching a player shoot a lower percentage proves he is far better? Context proves Kobe is much better? In what way?

We are seriously approaching Kobestans as people who believe the world is flat.

[branslowski]

Nikka you high or retarded?

NVM....

Just trying not to be a prick.

He obviously thinks that due to LeBron's higher fg%, that he's a better shooter than Kobe. So I also wonder does he think LeBron is a better shooter than Curry.

Reality? LeBron's fg% is like that of a PF....Players who get to the rim more often is going to have high fg% vs players who don't get there at that same clip. It's logical basketball. This also does not mean the guy with the higher % is the better shooter. (view points I made above)

Lebrons higher mid range percentage comes from shooting more wideopen shots than Kobe. That's reality. Not a diss towards LeBron, and noo this doesn't make Kobe's shot selection great, but if Kobe shot those open jumpers his mid range % would be far greater than Brons.

You would have to be a complete dumbass to think LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe.

[PickernRoller]

So being a better shooter doesn't mean making more of the same shots? I seriously cannot even wrap my head around this.

You think that watching a player shoot a lower percentage proves he is far better? Context proves Kobe is much better? In what way?

We are seriously approaching Kobestans as people who believe the world is flat.

So 2013 Lebron as a jump shooter >>> than 2006 Kobe Bryant as a jump shooter. If you wrap your head around that idea you might wanna go outside and check if the world is truly flat.

I got no time for kids - I do admire the baits you have thrown around - wrong personal thou.

[Owl]

Most LeBron fans would concede that Bryant is a better shooter in terms of "given the same circumstances/defense" who'd make more shots, certainly career wise and arguably from most spots right now (see their ft percentages), though LeBron's increasing 3 point percentage brings it into question.

But that simply leads us back to why does LeBron shoot better from the field, because he's so much deadlier on the drive, wheras Kobe can't create high % shots to the same degree. And then that huge danger on the drive and defenses reactions to it, combined with LeBron's improved stroke means that the effect is LeBron is now more effective from midrange too.

So maybe Kobe wins a shooting skill contest. LeBron is significantly more effective. I know which I'd rather have.

[WWRWestbrookDo?]

Monta Ellis

[HurricaneKid]

Good points but let me ask you this...

Do you think Dwight Howard is a better shooter than Steph Curry?

Well lets see.

Dwight Howard
16-23 ft - .200
3- .167

Steph Curry
16-23 ft - .437
3- .445

NO. NOT CLOSE.

I see what you TRIED to do... Too bad we are speaking specifically about shooting.

[PickernRoller]

Well lets see.

Dwight Howard
16-23 ft - .200
3- .167

Steph Curry
16-23 ft - .437
3- .445

NO. NOT CLOSE.

I see what you TRIED to do... Too bad we are speaking specifically about shooting.

He tried to do what you wanted him to "try" to do :lol ...:roll: He fell for it - the bait. Too obvious. Although he could find the right examples - just not of the top of his head. I doubt he will spend the time on that.

So it's a fair conclusion that 5>2 makes Kobe 2x+ the winner Lebron could ever aspire to be.

Stupidity in this forum is reaching a new high - I mean weak trolling. Numbers, the downfall of mankind and salvation.



But that simply leads us back to why does LeBron shoot better from the field, because he's so much deadlier on the drive, wheras Kobe can't create high % shots to the same degree. And then that huge danger on the drive and defenses reactions to it, combined with LeBron's improved stroke means that the effect is LeBron is now more effective from midrange too.


That's One take on it. Not necessarily the only one. He isn't as deadly on the drive as people make him out to be. But I wouldn't argue that he isn't more efficient making plays close to the rim either. Certainly better than the average by all accounts.

[HurricaneKid]

So it's a fair conclusion that 5>2 makes Kobe 2x the winner Lebron could ever aspire to be.

Numbers, the downfall of mankind and salvation.


Well LeBron isn't done. Kobe is. And if you are going to count 15.6/4.6 on 36.7% FG as a Championship we might as well just say Robert Horry = Kobe Bryant + LeBron James.

I laugh every time I see a Kobe fan break out in a statistic allergy.

[K Xerxes]

LeBron is significantly more effective.

You could have said this and left it at that, really. Kobe stans can take Kobe's ability to make 40% of his contested jumpshots - although it strikes me as puzzing that that's something to be proud about - but LeBron is far superior closer to the rim and converts at a higher rate overall while maintaining similar scoring average. He's more effective, that's all.

It's quite sad how tenuous these Kobe arguments are getting already. LeBron is only 28. I hesitate to imagine how awful they'll be in a few years time when LeBron is only going to keep improving his resume.

[PickernRoller]

Well LeBron isn't done. Kobe is. And if you are going to count 15.6/4.6 on 36.7% FG as a Championship we might as well just say Robert Horry = Kobe Bryant + LeBron James.

I laugh every time I see a Kobe fan break out in a statistic allergy.

Not really. 7>5 means Horry is greater than Kobe and Lebron. In a statistical sense that is correct and perfectly fits your reasoning and if you truly believe your claim. Horry is a more efficient winner than both Kobe and Lebron.

Just like some random NBA bum of the 70's or 80's had better FG% from 16-23ft than Lebron and Kobe making him a better jump shooter when said BUM was clearly not.

Point being you're a moron and there are tons on ISH just like you. But I wouldn't blame that on you since there are some people that fall for this kind of stupidity. Clearly evident in all the replies and the "discussion" - a mere circle jerk of weak trolling and stupidity.

So in a sense I am not allergic to statistics by any means, I am certainly allergic to stupidity and weak trolling.

-------------------------------

Hey Xer, still arguing about Lebron's peak? :lol :roll: :roll:

But but, .4%..

BTW sporting a Jordan avy is truly a disservice to your cause. Being a cover agent, acting "unbiased" isn't really CIA material anymore. You can do better.

[VIntageNOvel]

Not really. 7>5 means Horry is greater than Kobe and Lebron. In a statistical sense that is correct and perfectly fits your reasoning and if you truly believe your claim. Horry is a more efficient winner than both Kobe and Lebron.

Just like some random NBA bum of the 70's or 80's had better FG% from 16-23ft than Lebron and Kobe making him a better jump shooter when said BUM was clearly not.

Point being you're a moron and there are tons on ISH just like you. But I wouldn't blame that on you since there are some people that fall for this kind of stupidity.

Hey Xer, still arguing about Lebron's peak? :lol :roll: :roll:

dont waste your time



The numbers show that James separated himself from Bryant thanks to greater support of the African-American population. Twenty-four percent of African-Americans said James was their favorite player this season compared to only 16 percent mentioning Bryant. James also skewed younger, as 18 percent of kids 12-17 said they preferred him while only 15 percent preferred Bryant.

[fpliii]

EDIT: Oops, posted in the wrong thread.

[HurricaneKid]

Not really. 7>5 means Horry is greater than Kobe and Lebron. In a statistical sense that is correct and perfectly fits your reasoning and if you truly believe your claim. Horry is a more efficient winner than both Kobe and Lebron.

Just like some random NBA bum of the 70's or 80's had better FG% from 16-23ft than Lebron and Kobe making him a better jump shooter when said BUM was clearly not.

Point being you're a moron and there are tons on ISH just like you. But I wouldn't blame that on you since there are some people that fall for this kind of stupidity. Clearly evident in all the replies and the "discussion" - a mere circle jerk of weak trolling and stupidity.

So in a sense I am not allergic to statistics by any means, I am certainly allergic to stupidity and weak trolling.



Not a lot of guys shoot very well from 16-23. And there is no data I am aware of for shooting stats before ~2000.

I'm no moron and the point is a strong one. If Kobe is so much better of a shooter why are his shooting stats significantly worse than his elite peers?

Championships are not stats. And anyone who considers them such is doing it wrong.

[PickernRoller]

Not a lot of guys shoot very well from 16-23.

Majority do not. Is that relevant to your point? No, it's irrelevant. Majority does not make "everyone".



I'm no moron and the point is a strong one.

No it's not. And Yes, you know you're.


If Kobe is so much better of a shooter why are his shooting stats significantly worse than his elite peers?

Championships are not stats. And anyone who considers them such is doing it wrong.

The number of championships and the success per appearance i.e 5/7, 2/4 is a statistic that measures success per the number of Final appearances. So if by that statistic we compare Horry to Kobe and to Lebron then we can assume that by that statistic alone Horry is a more efficient winner. Horry being more efficient than both Kobe and Lebron. By that same token and your logic Horry is the better winner. The better winner in many circles symbolizes better player or whatever cliche that's out there...

We know that's not true...for a variety of reasons.

Now the smart troll would say; "Hey, championships are team accomplishments so it doesn't apply". To which I would say, "if player X plays with crappy teammates and is doubled teamed 100% of the time his shooting numbers(FG%) would be pretty bad wouldn't you say? Anyone with an IQ > 5 knows that this is correct. For it would be impossible for a player to be successful facing constant double teams. So a player is dependent on his team mates for both success and individual performance in all the facets of the game. It's a team game.

(smart troll: but if he's doubled teamed all the time he can pass it to an open teammate. Well there is a reason they are crappy)

I could go on and on and write an expose about why your logic is flawed - but that is no news to anyone.

Bottomline statistics alone are not the end all of arguments. More often than not on ISH it's - it fits agendas and trolling. Comparing jump shooters doesn't simply boil down to cherry picked FG% from 16-23ft or, 10-18ft or whatever the criteria. It's a mere statistic that helps makes observations, nothing more.

There is no way to escape logic. No exceptions, no workarounds. An 80's or 70's Bum having 49 FG% from 16-23ft makes him a better jump shooter than Kobe and Lebron. Yet, the word BUM implies he's not. Clearly a fact. But but, we are talking about his contemporary peers....bla bla......Irrelevant to your logic and point.

NONETHELESS: Because ISH is incapable of looking past stats to form an opinion and most posters would troll based on this fact here is the "jumpshot".
================================================== ==============================================
Criteria:

Regular Season.

Any Jumpshot: (aka jump to shoot) all jumpshots, from all distances. Why? I.e Kobe's fadeaway in the post might not fall into the 16-23ft criteria - aka the cherry picking.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2rpbec9.png

http://i40.tinypic.com/6pw6ds.png

Kobe's career average: .394%. Lebron .370%.

Lebron's best: .429% (813 FGA) Year: 2012-2013. Kobe's best .421% (1215 FGA) Year:2009-2010.

We can agree with the law of averages(street code) that imply that the more you take the more prone you are to miss. So a mere 0.08 percentage deficiency with Kobe taking 402 more jump shots - almost half of Lebron's FGAs is more efficient. Yes, Kobe's a better jump shooter in the regular season.

Looking at the player tendencies:

Lebron cherry picks his shots.
Lebron is often open to make his shots.
Lebron is hardly doubled teamed.
Lebron is dared to shoot jumpers.
Lebron takes less jump shots.
------------------------------------------
Kobe does not cherry pick his shots.
Kobe shoots high degree of difficulty shots.
Kobe is often double-teamed past the 3pt line.
Opponents do not dare Kobe to shoot jumpers by giving him space.
Kobe shoots more contested jumpers.
Kobe doesn't give a f'ck about FG% unlike Lebron.

Yes, Kobe even then is the better jump shooter. Context isn't even necessary at this point.

[PickernRoller]

More Salt, Playoffs:

http://i44.tinypic.com/32zq3wi.png

http://i39.tinypic.com/c0tjs.jpg

Yes, Kobe is the better jump shooter in the playoffs too.

[Trollsmasher]

What's with all that bullshit that Lebron is never double-teamed and Kobe is hunted by double-triple teams since the moment he crosses the half court line in this thread?:lol

Kobe stans now making up absolutely ridiculous stuff for their gawd to stay relevant:lol

PickernRoller has been reaching kenneth and 9erempiree level of stupidy lately.

[PickernRoller]

What's with all that bullshit that Lebron is never double-teamed and Kobe is hunted by double-triple teams since the moment he crosses the half court line in this thread?:lol

Kobe stans now making up absolutely ridiculous stuff for their gawd to stay relevant:lol

PickernRoller has been reaching kenneth and 9erempiree level of stupidy lately.

The stench of your irrelevance poisons the mood. No one has said Lebron is never double teamed.

Clearly, as stated, Kobe is often double teamed past the 3pt line - more so than Lebron. Lebron usually and more often than not faces single coverage. To deny such thing is to deny facts.

To claim as others have done that Lebron is a better jump shooter is to laugh at people's level of intelligence. Facts prove otherwise. Common knowledge proves otherwise.

Keep yourself in that hole where you belong, with the dirt and stench of a failed troll.

Stay Mad and in my pocket.

[Owl]

Majority do not. Is that relevant to your point? No, it's irrelevant. Majority does not make "everyone".



No it's not. And Yes, you know you're.



The number of championships and the success per appearance i.e 5/7, 2/4 is a statistic that measures success per the number of Final appearances. So if by that statistic we compare Horry to Kobe and to Lebron then we can assume that by that statistic alone Horry is a more efficient winner. Horry being more efficient than both Kobe and Lebron. By that same token and your logic Horry is the better winner. The better winner in many circles symbolizes better player or whatever cliche that's out there...

We know that's not true...for a variety of reasons.

Now the smart troll would say; "Hey, championships are team accomplishments so it doesn't apply". To which I would say, "if player X plays with crappy teammates and is doubled teamed 100% of the time his shooting numbers(FG%) would be pretty bad wouldn't you say? Anyone with an IQ > 5 knows that this is correct. For it would be impossible for a player to be successful facing constant double teams. So a player is dependent on his team mates for both success and individual performance in all the facets of the game. It's a team game.

(smart troll: but if he's doubled teamed all the time he can pass it to an open teammate. Well there is a reason they are crappy)

I could go on and on and write an expose about why your logic is flawed - but that is no news to anyone.

Bottomline statistics alone are not the end all of arguments. More often than not on ISH it's - it fits agendas and trolling. Comparing jump shooters doesn't simply boil down to cherry picked FG% from 16-23ft or, 10-18ft or whatever the criteria. It's a mere statistic that helps makes observations, nothing more.

There is no way to escape logic. No exceptions, no workarounds. An 80's or 70's Bum having 49 FG% from 16-23ft makes him a better jump shooter than Kobe and Lebron. Yet, the word BUM implies he's not. Clearly a fact. But but, we are talking about his contemporary peers....bla bla......Irrelevant to your logic and point.

NONETHELESS: Because ISH is incapable of looking past stats to form an opinion and most posters would troll based on this fact here is the "jumpshot".
================================================== ==============================================
Criteria:

Regular Season.

Any Jumpshot: (aka jump to shoot) all jumpshots, from all distances. Why? I.e Kobe's fadeaway in the post might not fall into the 16-23ft criteria - aka the cherry picking.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2rpbec9.png

http://i40.tinypic.com/6pw6ds.png

Kobe's career average: .394%. Lebron .370%.

Lebron's best: .429% (813 FGA) Year: 2012-2013. Kobe's best .421% (1215 FGA) Year:2009-2010.

We can agree with the law of averages(street code) that imply that the more you take the more prone you are to miss. So a mere 0.08 percentage deficiency with Kobe taking 402 more jump shots - almost half of Lebron's FGAs is more efficient. Yes, Kobe's a better jump shooter in the regular season.

Looking at the player tendencies:

Lebron cherry picks his shots.
Lebron is often open to make his shots.
Lebron is hardly doubled teamed.
Lebron is dared to shoot jumpers.
Lebron takes less jump shots.
------------------------------------------
Kobe does not cherry pick his shots.
Kobe shoots high degree of difficulty shots.
Kobe is often double-teamed past the 3pt line.
Opponents do not dare Kobe to shoot jumpers by giving him space.
Kobe shoots more contested jumpers.
Kobe doesn't give a f'ck about FG% unlike Lebron.

Yes, Kobe even then is the better jump shooter. Context isn't even necessary at this point.
Just curious to make sure you're not arguing with a straw man.

Who is saying LeBron is the (career long) better jump shooter?

[PickernRoller]

Just curious to make sure you're not arguing with a straw man.

Who is saying LeBron is the (career long) better jump shooter?

I am saying at all points in both of Kobe's and Lebron's career; Kobe has been the better jump shooter. Supported not only by statistics(you did read them right?) but also by context and any criteria you might want to think of PERIOD. No way to refute it.


Ah its obvious now. The reason LeBron shot well (or at least better than Kobe ever did) is because he's such a poor shooter. Well that clears that up.


To my pocket? Meh it's already full. To the ground I guess.

[Trollsmasher]

The stench of your irrelevance poisons the mood. No one has said Lebron is never double teamed.

Clearly, as stated, Kobe is often double teamed past the 3pt line - more so than Lebron. Lebron usually and more often than not faces single coverage. To deny such thing is to deny facts.

To claim as others have done that Lebron is a better jump shooter is to laugh at people's level of intelligence. Facts prove otherwise. Common knowledge proves otherwise.

Keep yourself in that hole where you belong, with the dirt and stench of a failed troll.

Stay Mad and in my pocket.
I am not the one who is mad here. You are the one creating endless essays full of nonsense to satisfy your lust for your gawd


Lebron is hardly doubled teamed.

Why do I even bother myself talking to someone who instead of watching some NBA games rather furiously *********es to charts with Kobe's inefficient shooting?:lol

The best player in the world is hardly double teamed while the old Kobe that can't pass by anyone and who is best to left on his own to shoot himself out of the game is double and triple teamted in the moment he crosses the half point line:hammerhead:

Watch the game instead of watching Kobe, kiddo:hammerhead:

[PickernRoller]

I am not the one who is mad here.
The best player in the world is hardly double teamed while the old Kobe that can't pass by anyone and who is best to left on his own to shoot himself out of the game is double and triple teamted in the moment he crosses the half point line:hammerhead:



So if you're not mad why are you replying to my posts and why are you attacking me outright? I mean there must be something that attracts you to my posts? Is it because you're an alt account, a lil b1tch with no self-respect trolling left and right with no shame or is it that you just hate my existence in this forum cause I am simply an obstacle to your agenda?

You're trying to fool who? the air you breathe? Boy please you're so attracted to my d1ck that I got you making post about how bad I am. That's when you know you belong in my pocket.

[2010splash]

In terms of shooting, Kobe is known for his 40 FG% series averages in the Finals, 6/24 Game 7 performances, attempting upwards of 30 shots/game at times, etc.

LeBron is known for his obscenely high efficiency (56.5 FG%, 64.0 TS%), his incredible 3-pt percentage (over 40 3-pt%), and his prudent shot selection (never hoists up low percentage 20-ft fadeaways over a double team, never attempts too many shots, etc).

That is the difference. In the biggest moments and during crunch time when legends are made, Kobe shoots low percentages and LeBron shoots his best.

[2010splash]

Kobe's single-season best FG% is lower than LeBron's career FG%. That is an alarming fact. For all the talk of Kobe's shooting skills, he has yet to shoot 50 FG% in a single playoff run or regular season. LeBron has done both. Kobe has also never shot 40% from three.

[Doranku]

That is the difference. In the biggest moments and during crunch time when legends are made, Kobe shoots low percentages and LeBron shoots his best.
http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/photo-1-500x373.jpg

[PickernRoller]

Lebron Stans Trolling Gone Wild Vol 5.

"When beat and defeated, post irrelevant crap and make it look relevant".

Stay salty b1tches.

[2010splash]

LeBron leads all players in NBA history in PPG during elimination games. His average in elimination games is something like 32/10/6 on 47 FG%. That is what it means to be clutch.

Kobe's stats during these kinds of situations are not pretty at all.

[Trollsmasher]

So if you're not mad why are you replying to my posts and why are you attacking me outright? I mean there must be something that attracts you to my posts? Is it because you're an alt account, a lil b1tch with no self-respect trolling left and right with no shame or is it that you just hate my existence in this forum cause I am simply an obstacle to your agenda?

You're trying to fool who? the air you breathe? Boy please you're so attracted to my d1ck that I got you making post about how bad I am. That's when you know you belong in my pocket.
See, now you want me to crave for your ****. I turned you gay with two posts:lol

You are done, boy. Nothing left for me to do here:pimp:

[PickernRoller]

See, now you want me to crave for your ****. I turned you gay with two posts:lol

You are done, boy. Nothing left for me to do here:pimp:

I see you fail at reading comprehension. My statement implies that you're gay, not that I am. Nice try thou....

In my pocket you stay. :pimp:

[9erempiree]

In my pocket you stay. :pimp:

I haven't heard that saying in a minute.

:cheers:

pwned.

[Trollsmasher]

I see you fail at reading comprehension. My statement implies that you're gay, not that I am. Nice try thou....

In my pocket you stay. :pimp:
No, the subtext of your statement in fact implies that you want ****. Additionally I know that I am not the one of us who is gay, so it has to be you.

9erempiree seems to be willing to take you though, so you might give it a try:applause:

[PickernRoller]

No, the subtext of your statement in fact implies that you want ****. Additionally I know that I am not the one of us who is gay, so it has to be you.

9erempiree seems to be willing to take you though, so you might give it a try:applause:

You're so shook you're just making shit up as you go. No way to get out of my pocket. Troll wannabe became my b1tch two post in. Not that this was the first time you tried to get at me - last time you failed too. If your delusions make you feel better in a mirror be my guest. Reality is, you're my b1tch from now on.

Stay salty and irrelevant.

---------------------------
Hurricane Kid nowhere to be seen. Another clown in my pocket - probably an alt - trollsmasher? :lol :lol

Sad kid.

[Owl]

I am saying at all points in both of Kobe's and Lebron's career; Kobe has been the better jump shooter. Supported not only by statistics(you did read them right?) but also by context and any criteria you might want to think of PERIOD. No way to refute it.
1) The underlined clearly not true. LeBron was a better 3 point shooter last year. And hit a higher percentage of his total jumpers last year too (from your own post). And 16-23. Kobe's only advantage last year was at the ft line. You could argue Kobe was taking more difficult shots. But then that wouldn't be by "any criteria you might want to think of" would it.

2) You seem to have missed my point. Who is arguing the merits of LeBron has been arguing the merits of LeBron and Kobe as jump shooters. The topic was should you dare certain players to shoot. The answer is yes its a balance of the risk of the drive versus the risk of the shot.

3) No I didn't read your stats because as I stated they were off topic. But as you've said the context in which shots are taken is important. So just as I don't think LeBron is a better shooter though he shot more accurately from 17+ last year, I wouldn't necessarily think Kobe is better because he made more jump shots or shot a better percentage in a given, because that may merely suggest that Kobe is taking shorter Js either out of post ups, or when he fails to get to the rim.



To my pocket? Meh it's already full. To the ground I guess.
No idea what this means. But by your rudeness towards others and obsession with homosexuality and implied homophobia you've earnt my first ignore. Bravo sir.

[PickernRoller]

First of all I got into the 'argument" with Hurricane, nowhere to be seen , Kid. Lebron > Kobe as a jump shooter. So you replying to me is irrelevant. You saying that I am off-topic is irrelevant. Your posts with regards to me are irrelevant. You understand your irrelevance correct?

Shooting better from 3, measured by FG% alone doesn't make Lebron a better jumpshooter. Clearly what was argued and the whole point of my arguments. FG% is not the end all of arguments nor the sole metric for judging a jumpshooter. Even then I provided statistical evidence that shows that Kobe is a better shooter. Whether from 3 or 2. Now you might wanna act like you don't know what the shit is going on like a smart@ss but the bottomline is you do.

As for the ignore, thanks for the honors. It seems you get into arguments where you don't belong. If you don't want others to be rude; first don't call people's arguments "straw man arguments" when you clearly have no clue what's been argued and second;

There is no hiding from this:


Ah its obvious now. The reason LeBron shot well (or at least better than Kobe ever did) is because he's such a poor shooter. Well that clears that up.


Kobe is a better jump shooter so that is false. Since you post irrelevant crap it's appreciated that I am ignored. Hold you to your word.

[lakerspng]

Coaches don' "dare Lebron to shoot" because he's a bad shooter. He's not great but he's average at least and he can get hot and kill you at times as a jump shooter... The reason you dare LeBron to shoot, is to make him indecisive. It makes him uncomfortable and forces him to think too much. For the better part of the finals you could see how well it worked. He was passive, indecisive and not taking over games. He eventually just said f it in game 7 and dominated that game, but for the majority of the finals it limited him.

[sic]

Besides Lebron is there any other player in history, or currently will fall under this category?

Here are the current players that I would play this kind of defense on:

Rondo
Westbrook


Tayshuan Prince shut kobe down easily without resorting to dare you to shoot defense. For Lebron there is no other mode of defending him, in fact he even burst through the "dare you to shoot" defense.

[SamuraiSWISH]

With Kobe it was use long arm defenders to contest his deadly jumper at all costs, force him to drive and finish at the rim or get others involved. Pistons, Celtics all were successful. Even in 2010 Kobe didn't entirely redeem himself against the Celtics. Playing into their strategy, only getting really hot for one quarter.

With LeBron it's sag off him, refuse to let him get to the rim and destroy your defense from the inside out with penetration, finishing at the rim, and passing skill getting others involved. Make him have confidence in his jumper to beat you. Which took him 6 games to take advantage of against the Spurs.

With Jordan, you had to pick your poison. Put small guy on him to stop the penetration of destroying the defense inside / out? And he'd abuse the small guy in the post, or shoot over him. Put a long athletic guy on him to context his automatic jumper, and he'd blow right by him with his lighting quick first step and finish at the rim. MJ had confidence in all his abilities. And the intelligence to recognize it, and know how to beat you.

[CavaliersFTW]

:lol

[34-24 Footwork]

This thread is gold....

[Quickening]

Has anyone in this thread actually played basketball?

Go play at your local park. If you play against someone who is a very good scorer, but is insanely good at finding team mates out of double teams, and scoring at the rim. You encourage them to shoot.

If you're facing someone who is a volume scorer on poor percentages, who is reluctant to pass whatever the situation, you put a hand in their face.

Simple basketball 101 you social rejects.

[Smoke117]

Kobriiiiiiiiiiiiick Cryaaaaant

[Gileraracer]

Has anyone in this thread actually played basketball?

Go play at your local park. If you play against someone who is a very good scorer, but is insanely good at finding team mates out of double teams, and scoring at the rim. You encourage them to shoot.

If you're facing someone who is a volume scorer on poor percentages, who is reluctant to pass whatever the situation, you put a hand in their face.

Simple basketball 101 you social rejects.

If you face someone who shoots 27% from outside 5ft what will you do?

Force him to shoot from outside 5ft. Finals MVP will be yours :lol

[34-24 Footwork]

When you idolize someone who can't shoot more than 27% beyond 5 ft on single coverage, this discussion will be ugly....and rightfully so.

[Asukal]

The best player in the world can't hit mid range shots? Weak era! :oldlol:

[plowking]

Kobe Bryant.

2010 Finals a good example. Ray Allen mind ****ed him.

[Smoke117]

Kobe Bryant.

2010 Finals a good example. Ray Allen mind ****ed him.

I remember a thread bringing up how Lebron and kobe had trouble with the 2010 Celtics but Wade ate them up...yeah because he's always attacking. Kobe especially has always made it easy on defenders...because he'd much rather settle for the jumper...and everyone knows it. Ray did a good job in 2008 and 2010 because he doesn't fall for shot fakes...which is Kobe's bread and butter on the perimeter. Wade on the other hand is always looking to attack and it was just unfair for an old Ray to have to defend him during his prime lol. Kobe should NEVER be compared to Jordan because he plays nothing like a Jordan in his prime (he was 29 in 08 and already prone to settling for the jumper by 2006 really)...he plays like a post come 96 come back and his stats and play is comparable there...he has nothing on a pre retirement Jordan.. Wade at his best is the closest we've ever had to a Jordan in his prime.


Besides defense this is the biggest reason why comparing Kobe to Jordan is a joke...he literally never played like a Jordan in his prime. He couldn't frankly...he never had the first step or ability off the dribble that Jordan had in his young days. The only guy to come along who was close is Wade before the knee got bothersome.

[Magic 32]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/c9566b3381a3a6f2e0ba5c01d01e0110/tumblr_mk3la9AWkU1qk5jr2o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/45fe0aa6c007fa8f3024ebd327c87aee/tumblr_mme7xacNUT1qk5jr2o1_500.gif



"Look what journalists game me"

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/bill-simmons-fist-pump-and-tirico-clap-after-jalen-interviews-pop.gif

[Smoke117]

^^^ 8000 post and you literally have not made one that is an intelligent comment on actual basketball. Go f@ck your mother.

[Gileraracer]

^^^ 8000 post and you literally have not made one that is an intelligent comment on actual basketball. Go f@ck your mother.

Thanks journalists, thanks ESPN :banana:

[Mr. Jabbar]

"Look what journalists game me"

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/bill-simmons-fist-pump-and-tirico-clap-after-jalen-interviews-pop.gif


:roll: :roll:


:(


#kang

[catch24]

I remember a thread bringing up how Lebron and kobe had trouble with the 2010 Celtics but Wade ate them up...yeah because he's always attacking. Kobe especially has always made it easy on defenders...because he'd much rather settle for the jumper...and everyone knows it. Ray did a good job in 2008 and 2010 because he doesn't fall for shot fakes...which is Kobe's bread and butter on the perimeter. Wade on the other hand is always looking to attack and it was just unfair for an old Ray to have to defend him during his prime lol. Kobe should NEVER be compared to Jordan because he plays nothing like a Jordan in his prime (he was 29 in 08 and already prone to settling for the jumper by 2006 really)...he plays like a post come 96 come back and his stats and play is comparable there...he has nothing on a pre retirement Jordan.. Wade at his best is the closest we've ever had to a Jordan in his prime.


Besides defense this is the biggest reason why comparing Kobe to Jordan is a joke...he literally never played like a Jordan in his prime. He couldn't frankly...he never had the first step or ability off the dribble that Jordan had in his young days. The only guy to come along who was close is Wade before the knee got bothersome.

This guy sounds clinically bitter. Every time I read a post of his, its crying about Kobe being too good.

Take it easy bro :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

This guy sounds clinically bitter. Every time I read a post of his, its crying about Kobe being too good.

Take it easy bro :oldlol:
I somewhat agree with the premise, but not the tone. Always felt kobe patented his game after 2nd 3peat mj. He should really only be compared to mj due to aesthetics of his game. He wasn't ever close to prime Mj quality or impact for various reasons.

[Rocketswin2013]

Popovich did what the Bucks and Bulls did to an extreme degree, and it backfired on him.

[warriorfan]

^^^ 8000 post and you literally have not made one that is an intelligent comment on actual basketball. Go f@ck your mother.

Smoke bro, take two Advil and a glass of water and take it easy.