Do the 2009 Lakers still win the NBA Championship without Kobe?

[TonyMontana]

If not, how far do they go?

2009 has to be one of the weakest years in NBA History. Mostly because Kevin Garnett was lost for the year for the defending champions. Lets look at who LA had to play.

First round: Jazz(won in 5)
Second round: Rockets(won in 7, but it wasn't even competitive, Yao got hurt)
WCF: Nuggets(won in 6, the Nuggets were terrible on defense although not as weak of a conference finalist as the Suns team the Lakers would play the very next year)
Finals: Magic(won in 5)

Pau Gasol emerged as a superstar in the NBA under Phil Jacksons triangle offense, and if he got even more touches who knows what kind of numbers he'd put up. In the Finals he averaged 19 PPG, 9 RPG and 60% shooting against the top bigman in the NBA at the time. Held Dwight to 15 PPG and 49% shooting. As you can see Gasol dominated this matchup even though Dwight was a better player.

Who else was on that Magic team? Turkoglu???? Rafer Alston???? Courtney Lee? :facepalm

C- Pau Gasol
F- Lamar Odom
F-Trevor Ariza
G-Shannon Brown
G-Derek Fisher
Bench: Bynum, Jordan Farmar, Luke Walton, Sasha
Coach: PHIL JACKSON

Still the top frontcourt in the NBA with that Gasol,Odom,Bynum trio of 7 footers. Backcourt takes a hit, but they still have a lot of youth and energy there. Can definitely be competitive especially with Phil Jackson who would utilize Gasols talents even more.

[Kblaze8855]

A lot of you really need to shut the **** up and act like real people.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Are you serious? Not even close. They're basically the early 2000s Memphis Grizzlies with Pau Gasol as alpha. Which means they are going no where, quickly. Another shameful, bait / troll thread from an attention starved little boy. Nothing to see here folks.

[#number6ix#]

Hell nah the magic weren't scrubs ask lebron

[Unbiased_one]

If not,.

:lol

are you serious?

[riseagainst]

long answer: they don't
short answer: no

[TonyMontana]

Are you serious? Not even close. They're basically the early 2000s Memphis Grizzlies with Pau Gasol as alpha. Which means they are going no where, quickly. Another shameful, bait / troll thread from an attention starved little boy. Nothing to see here folks.

Show me where Phil Jackson coached the Grizzlies.

People want to act like coaching means nothing. Untrue. Phil always knew how to get the most out of his superstars. Look at Kobe in 2005 when Phil left compared to 2006 when Phil returned. Gasols game was taken to another level in LA because of the triangle offense which perfectly utilized his strengths(terrific passer from the post and excelent low post offense).

Just look at how D'Antoni ruined the Lakers this year. Quality coaching is underrated.

[Jameerthefear]

delete thread please.

[TOLATE]

If not, how far do they go?

2009 has to be one of the weakest years in NBA History. Mostly because Kevin Garnett was lost for the year for the defending champions. Lets look at who LA had to play.

First round: Jazz(won in 5)
Second round: Rockets(won in 7, but it wasn't even competitive, Yao got hurt)
WCF: Nuggets(won in 6, the Nuggets were terrible on defense although not as weak of a conference finalist as the Suns team the Lakers would play the very next year)
Finals: Magic(won in 5)

Pau Gasol emerged as a superstar in the NBA under Phil Jacksons triangle offense, and if he got even more touches who knows what kind of numbers he'd put up. In the Finals he averaged 19 PPG, 9 RPG and 60% shooting against the top bigman in the NBA at the time. Held Dwight to 15 PPG and 49% shooting. As you can see Gasol dominated this matchup even though Dwight was a better player.

Who else was on that Magic team? Turkoglu???? Rafer Alston???? Courtney Lee? :facepalm

C- Pau Gasol
F- Lamar Odom
F-Trevor Ariza
G-Shannon Brown
G-Derek Fisher
Bench: Bynum, Jordan Farmar, Luke Walton, Sasha
Coach: PHIL JACKSON

Still the top frontcourt in the NBA with that Gasol,Odom,Bynum trio of 7 footers. Backcourt takes a hit, but they still have a lot of youth and energy there. Can definitely be competitive especially with Phil Jackson who would utilize Gasols talents even more.

wait,does lebron lose to this team hurt him?

[TonyMontana]

wait,does lebron lose to this team hurt him?

That Magic supporting cast is still better than what LeBron had in Cleveland.

Orlando has 3 of the top 4 players in the series(Dwight,Shard,Turkoglu).

Cleveland lost to Orlando because their frontcourt got raped by Dwight. Big Z is absolutely pathetic. Thats why they brought in Shaq the next year. As a result Dwight Howard averaged 26 PPG on 65% shooting against the Cavs while collapsing their defense nearly every possession.

If LA had noone to handle Howard(Gasol/Bynum who OWNED him), you may have seen the same result for them. Fortunately the Lakers had the top frontcourt in the league.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

They might win....



















their first round series

[Bigsmoke]

They needed kobe in that nuggets series.

[rule1223]

so you're saying gasol>>lebron? is that correct?

[DMAVS41]

I think they could make the WCF actually...

[Doranku]

I think they could make the WCF actually...
:oldlol: Based on what? Gasols' 0-16 playoff record without Kobe?

Bynum was essentially a non-factor that year, and the rest of the team was Odom + role players.

They lose to the Jazz in 5 or 6 without Kobe.

[longtime lurker]

Who else was on that Magic team? Turkoglu???? Rafer Alston???? Courtney Lee? :facepalm



So you admit your boyfriend got completely owned by a worse team.

[97 bulls]

Are you serious? Not even close. They're basically the early 2000s Memphis Grizzlies with Pau Gasol as alpha. Which means they are going no where, quickly. Another shameful, bait / troll thread from an attention starved little boy. Nothing to see here folks.
So in order for you to consider Gasol an "alpha", he had to lead one of those Grizzly teams to a championship? Who was his wing guy? James Posey? Then Mike Miller? Kobe faired no better in the same situation.

[Doranku]

So in order for you to consider Gasol an "alpha", he had to lead one of those Grizzly teams to a championship? Who was his wing guy? James Posey? Then Mike Miller? Kobe faired no better in the same situation.
Huh? He's saying that Pau WOULD be the alpha and that's why they'd go nowhere.

The man is 0-16 in the playoffs without Kobe. That's AWFULLLLLLLLL

[rule1223]

So in order for you to consider Gasol an "alpha", he had to lead one of those Grizzly teams to a championship? Who was his wing guy? James Posey? Then Mike Miller? Kobe faired no better in the same situation.
no one was expecting him to lead a team to a championship, but is a single win too unreasonable?

[longtime lurker]

So in order for you to consider Gasol an "alpha", he had to lead one of those Grizzly teams to a championship? Who was his wing guy? James Posey? Then Mike Miller? Kobe faired no better in the same situation.

People say this, but Kobe actually won more than one game with a far worse set of teammates. Also he was really in that situation for 2 years before Gasol came along as compared to Gasol who had 6 seasons.

[ZaaaaaH]

L o L at these chumps. :applause:

Trolls working hard lately since its summer time. Get on that grind kids. :lol

[TonyMontana]

I think they could make the WCF actually...

Interesting


So in order for you to consider Gasol an "alpha", he had to lead one of those Grizzly teams to a championship? Who was his wing guy? James Posey? Then Mike Miller? Kobe faired no better in the same situation.

:applause:

Gasol is in the same category as Kobe when it comes to being the only all-star on the team.

The 2009 Lakers(even without Bryant) would easily be the best team he would ever be on up to that point. Especially when you see Phil Jackson is the head coach.

People don't realize just how good of a coach Phil is. 11 of the 20 seasons hes coached in the NBA have resulted in championships. This isn't some Red Auerbach shit either where theres 8 teams and all with the same team. Over half of the seasons hes coached in the modern 30 team NBA hes won a ring.

[MastaKilla]

I think they could make the WCF actually...


Troll

[Myth]

Sad that Yao's career ended right before the Rockets would have eliminated the Lakers.

[OldSkoolball#52]

The fact is if you simply SUBTRACT kobe and replace him either with nobody or with a d-leaguer, they probably still reach the conference finals at least.

If you actually replace him with a competent starter, let alone any sort of 'star' such as a Ray Allen, Monta Ellis, Andre Iguodala etc. they still win the finals. Point blank.

What Kobe contributes was volume shooting at the same level of efficiency the team could have scored by simply playing team ball without Kobe. He never guarded the opponents toughest player. He did not facilitate easy baskets for others. He wasn't a super efficient player and/or matchup nightmare offensively like Durant or Dirk. He was just a chucker. They truly didnt need him. Those players are overrated.

Chucking, however, is the most noticeable thing a player can do and draws the most fan interest and attention. Therefore, while his chucking and their winning were completely unrelated events, the average dummy prole pawn of a fan sees the two occuring simultaneously and believes they are a cause and effect sequence. Ignorance is the name of the game when it comes to popularity. Kobe knows this. He could have simply played team ball and they still would have won, but he knows he'll get glorified by all the dumb sheep if he takes a bunch of shots WHILE the rest of the team is playing smart, team ball. He knows they're gonna win either way because of the way the rest of the team is playing. So he chucks up shots and hogs the glory. That's what Kobe's all about, and his fans love it because they're betas, and if he plays the alpha role they'll all gasp and swoon.

[rule1223]

The fact is if you simply SUBTRACT kobe and replace him either with nobody or with a d-leaguer, they probably still reach the conference finals at least.

If you actually replace him with a competent starter, let alone any sort of 'star' such as a Ray Allen, Monta Ellis, Andre Iguodala etc. they still win the finals. Point blank.

What Kobe contributes was volume shooting at the same level of efficiency the team could have scored by simply playing team ball without Kobe. He never guarded the opponents toughest player. He did not facilitate easy baskets for others. He wasn't a super efficient player and/or matchup nightmare offensively like Durant or Dirk. He was just a chucker. They truly didnt need him. Those players are overrated.

Chucking, however, is the most noticeable thing a player can do and draws the most fan interest and attention. Therefore, while his chucking and their winning were completely unrelated events, the average dummy prole pawn of a fan sees the two occuring simultaneously and believes they are a cause and effect sequence. Ignorance is the name of the game when it comes to popularity. Kobe knows this. He could have simply played team ball and they still would have won, but he knows he'll get glorified by all the dumb sheep if he takes a bunch of shots WHILE the rest of the team is playing smart, team ball. He knows they're gonna win either way because of the way the rest of the team is playing. So he chucks up shots and hogs the glory. That's what Kobe's all about, and his fans love it because they're betas, and if he plays the alpha role they'll all gasp and swoon.
yet ur the only who notices this, while the rest of the basketball community worships kobe da gawd, congrats you intellectually superior being

[Magic 32]

0-16

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbci3dbNIV1qk4a0ho1_r1_1280.jpg

[JellyBean]

I don't think so. I don't think they even make it to the Finals that year. Houston took them to 7 games with Kobe. Metta was a beast in that series. Yao was Yao. Then you throw in Aaron Brooks and Luis Scola doing their work. Along with Shane Battier. I just don't see the Lakers making it to the Finals without Kobe. I don't even see them getting by the Rockets without Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

:oldlol: Based on what? Gasols' 0-16 playoff record without Kobe?

Bynum was essentially a non-factor that year, and the rest of the team was Odom + role players.

They lose to the Jazz in 5 or 6 without Kobe.

I said they "could"...not "would"

And Gasol's previous record is not really that important. The Lakers were not only better, but he was better and more experienced. 09 and 10 were Gasol's two best years of his career. He also had Phil Jackson on the sideline and a criminally under-rated Odom that could have produced very well in more minutes. Ariza as well.

They, without a doubt, beat the Jazz in my opinion. The Rockets series is obviously in doubt, but with homecourt...it's definitely reasonable to think they "could" win.

[Smoke117]

The Lakers would have never even won the championship if it wasn't for Kevin Garnett's injury. The Celtics were more dominant in 2009 than they were in 2008 before KG went down. Paul Pierce was Paul Pierce, KG was KG, Rondo was getting better and better, and Ray Allen was much better that season as he was fully healthy and not coming off of those double ankle surgeries in 2007. There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtics would have repeated if not for their defensive anchor and best player going down with that knee injury.

[Bobby13]

Implies that Orlando was bad finals competition

Orlando beat LeBron's Cavs in the ECF (LBJ had won regular season MVP and his team had the best regular season record that year)

OP then ignores this basic fact and decides to use the "LBJ had bad teammates" and "Kobe had a godly frontcourt" shtick instead. As always, this shtick is used in both of the following cases:

a) LBJ gets even the slightest bit of criticism
b) Kobe gets even the slightest bit of credit

Conclusion: LBJ is the GOAT and Kobe isn't even top 50 material

[Rooster]

I said they "could"...not "would"

And Gasol's previous record is not really that important. The Lakers were not only better, but he was better and more experienced. 09 and 10 were Gasol's two best years of his career. He also had Phil Jackson on the sideline and a criminally under-rated Odom that could have produced very well in more minutes. Ariza as well.

They, without a doubt, beat the Jazz in my opinion. The Rockets series is obviously in doubt, but with homecourt...it's definitely reasonable to think they "could" win.

Really. What Lakers are you watching.?

Without Kobe getting constantly getting double team from the perimeter where the Lakers offense usually starts then you basically handicap them with Gasol trying to carry the team which we know he can't especially the playoffs where teams adjusts.

[longtime lurker]

I said they "could"...not "would"

And Gasol's previous record is not really that important. The Lakers were not only better, but he was better and more experienced. 09 and 10 were Gasol's two best years of his career. He also had Phil Jackson on the sideline and a criminally under-rated Odom that could have produced very well in more minutes. Ariza as well.

They, without a doubt, beat the Jazz in my opinion. The Rockets series is obviously in doubt, but with homecourt...it's definitely reasonable to think they "could" win.

Well considering without Kobe they'd be a lower seed, so they would be playing a lot tougher competition than the Jazz and Rockets.

[clipps]

I'll answer this in Spanish... No.

[DMAVS41]

Well considering without Kobe they'd be a lower seed, so they would be playing a lot tougher competition than the Jazz and Rockets.

I assumed it meant without Kobe in the playoffs.

Without Kobe for the entire season? Then my take is different of course.

[MastaKilla]

I said they "could"...not "would"

And Gasol's previous record is not really that important. The Lakers were not only better, but he was better and more experienced. 09 and 10 were Gasol's two best years of his career. He also had Phil Jackson on the sideline and a criminally under-rated Odom that could have produced very well in more minutes. Ariza as well.

They, without a doubt, beat the Jazz in my opinion. The Rockets series is obviously in doubt, but with homecourt...it's definitely reasonable to think they "could" win.

So you think the lakers still finish 1st in the west without Kobe?

Since you're implying that they are still facing the same teams in the playoffs

[Rooster]

The fact is if you simply SUBTRACT kobe and replace him either with nobody or with a d-leaguer, they probably still reach the conference finals at least.

If you actually replace him with a competent starter, let alone any sort of 'star' such as a Ray Allen, Monta Ellis, Andre Iguodala etc. they still win the finals. Point blank.

What Kobe contributes was volume shooting at the same level of efficiency the team could have scored by simply playing team ball without Kobe. He never guarded the opponents toughest player. He did not facilitate easy baskets for others. He wasn't a super efficient player and/or matchup nightmare offensively like Durant or Dirk. He was just a chucker. They truly didnt need him. Those players are overrated.

Chucking, however, is the most noticeable thing a player can do and draws the most fan interest and attention. Therefore, while his chucking and their winning were completely unrelated events, the average dummy prole pawn of a fan sees the two occuring simultaneously and believes they are a cause and effect sequence. Ignorance is the name of the game when it comes to popularity. Kobe knows this. He could have simply played team ball and they still would have won, but he knows he'll get glorified by all the dumb sheep if he takes a bunch of shots WHILE the rest of the team is playing smart, team ball. He knows they're gonna win either way because of the way the rest of the team is playing. So he chucks up shots and hogs the glory. That's what Kobe's all about, and his fans love it because they're betas, and if he plays the alpha role they'll all gasp and swoon.

Whatever.

Obviously you don't watch a lot of Lakers and that is why you make ridiculous claims.

Just like people Saying replace Kobe with decent guards and Shaq still wins.

Guess what he could not win with Penny and Eddie Jones.

All star guards.

[DMAVS41]

Really. What Lakers are you watching.?

Without Kobe getting constantly getting double team from the perimeter where the Lakers offense usually starts then you basically handicap them with Gasol trying to carry the team which we know he can't especially the playoffs where teams adjusts.

You act like I'm saying they wouldn't be worse. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's not at all crazy to say they beat the Jazz and Rockets. Do I think they would? No idea...well, I definitely favor them over the Jazz. The Rockets is a different story...

They managed to blow out the Rockets in a do or die game 7 with Kobe not being much of a factor if I remember correctly...so I don't accept your premise that the Lakers can't do anything without Kobe.

[97 bulls]

Theres no way those late 00s Lakers teams win without Bryant. His presence alone opens things up for his teammates. But his team was pretty damn good as well. Lamar Odom was arguably the Lakers fouth best player after Bynum (when healthy). Hed be the best player on thise mid 00s Grizzley teams Gasol led. And mind you thats without Gasol.

[Magic 32]

Without Kobe, the 08-10 Lakers would have been a dismal road team. Only Fisher was made of the same stuff.

I doubt they get past the Jazz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aEOzjUr7IM

Kobe being a road warrior is truly one of the essential aspects of those teams success.

[TonyMontana]

The fact is if you simply SUBTRACT kobe and replace him either with nobody or with a d-leaguer, they probably still reach the conference finals at least.

If you actually replace him with a competent starter, let alone any sort of 'star' such as a Ray Allen, Monta Ellis, Andre Iguodala etc. they still win the finals. Point blank.

What Kobe contributes was volume shooting at the same level of efficiency the team could have scored by simply playing team ball without Kobe. He never guarded the opponents toughest player. He did not facilitate easy baskets for others. He wasn't a super efficient player and/or matchup nightmare offensively like Durant or Dirk. He was just a chucker. They truly didnt need him. Those players are overrated.

Chucking, however, is the most noticeable thing a player can do and draws the most fan interest and attention. Therefore, while his chucking and their winning were completely unrelated events, the average dummy prole pawn of a fan sees the two occuring simultaneously and believes they are a cause and effect sequence. Ignorance is the name of the game when it comes to popularity. Kobe knows this. He could have simply played team ball and they still would have won, but he knows he'll get glorified by all the dumb sheep if he takes a bunch of shots WHILE the rest of the team is playing smart, team ball. He knows they're gonna win either way because of the way the rest of the team is playing. So he chucks up shots and hogs the glory. That's what Kobe's all about, and his fans love it because they're betas, and if he plays the alpha role they'll all gasp and swoon.

:applause:

Best post in the thread.

Kobe was pretty good in that year, but the role he performs is overrated. Before you call me a Kobe hater, it is nothing against Kobe. It is against all of the players the sportscenter fans overrate and think are gods, when in reality they simply score a lot of points just because they take a lot of shots. And thats as far as their impact goes. These guys dont make others better, they dont make it easier for others. They dont effect the interior of games(the most important area of the court).

Anyone thats ever played basketball knows it's not fun when one guy is hogging the ball and forcing shots all game. It is no surprise the guys that do this do it on bad-average percentages from the floor often forcing the issue over making the correct play for the team.


I don't think so. I don't think they even make it to the Finals that year. Houston took them to 7 games with Kobe. Metta was a beast in that series. Yao was Yao. Then you throw in Aaron Brooks and Luis Scola doing their work. Along with Shane Battier. I just don't see the Lakers making it to the Finals without Kobe. I don't even see them getting by the Rockets without Kobe.

Yao got hurt in that series and missed nearly all of it.

The series went 7 games, but I dont think there was ever a point where people actually thought LA was in jeoperdy of losing. The only time they actually trailed was after Game 1(when Yao was actually playing).


The Lakers would have never even won the championship if it wasn't for Kevin Garnett's injury. The Celtics were more dominant in 2009 than they were in 2008 before KG went down. Paul Pierce was Paul Pierce, KG was KG, Rondo was getting better and better, and Ray Allen was much better that season as he was fully healthy and not coming off of those double ankle surgeries in 2007. There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtics would have repeated if not for their defensive anchor and best player going down with that knee injury.

No doubt, the Celtics were fierce that year. Those teams were really good. We'd prolly be looking at a three peat if KG isn't hurt in 09, and Perkins doesn't miss Games 6 and 7 in 2010(Boston 0-2 in those games).


Implies that Orlando was bad finals competition

Orlando beat LeBron's Cavs in the ECF (LBJ had won regular season MVP and his team had the best regular season record that year)

OP then ignores this basic fact and decides to use the "LBJ had bad teammates" and "Kobe had a godly frontcourt" shtick instead. As always, this shtick is used in both of the following cases:

a) LBJ gets even the slightest bit of criticism
b) Kobe gets even the slightest bit of credit

Conclusion: LBJ is the GOAT and Kobe isn't even top 50 material

Leave it to an insecure Kobe stan to try and make the topic about LeBron.

"LBJ having bad teammates" and "Kobe having a godly frontcourt" arn't "shticks". These are facts. LBJs team struggled to win 20 games when he left, and Kobe failed to get past Round 1 for 3 consecutive years before Gasol arrived.

Dwight Howard dominated LeBrons frontcourt while Dwight Howard was outplayed by Kobes frontcourt. Again, facts. The numbers speak for themselves.

[TheBigVeto]

Yup. They got Gasol, so no problem.

[Doranku]

I said they "could"...not "would"

And Gasol's previous record is not really that important. The Lakers were not only better, but he was better and more experienced. 09 and 10 were Gasol's two best years of his career. He also had Phil Jackson on the sideline and a criminally under-rated Odom that could have produced very well in more minutes. Ariza as well.

They, without a doubt, beat the Jazz in my opinion. The Rockets series is obviously in doubt, but with homecourt...it's definitely reasonable to think they "could" win.

You mention that Odom is criminally underrated, yet neglect to mention that Phil Jackson is criminally overrated.

'09 was Gasol's best year, and Odom definitely would have put up some nice numbers if Kobe wasn't there.

Ariza? We saw what he did when given a bigger role in Houston... dude fell off the face of the earth after leaving Kobe.

[Lakers2877]

Why do people respond seriously to threads like this? Just tell the op he's right so he can tell mommy about his big day on the Internet at the dinner table

[Heavincent]

I think they could make the WCF actually...

:roll:

[0000000]

Theres no way those late 00s Lakers teams win without Bryant. His presence alone opens things up for his teammates. But his team was pretty damn good as well. Lamar Odom was arguably the Lakers fouth best player after Bynum (when healthy). Hed be the best player on thise mid 00s Grizzley teams Gasol led. And mind you thats without Gasol.

Only thing worth replaying in this thread. No way was Bynum ever better than Odom. No way, no how. Best thing Bynum ever did was get injured and then come back just healthy enough to be a bench player, in the role of someone who's the team's muscle a la Kendrick Perkins. Lakers were at their best always when Pau played freely which was always without Bynum and when Bynum was nothing more than muscle of the bench.
Seems harsh considering Bynum's talent which is elite but it's how I honestl feel. Bynum always held Pau back and therefore the Lakers.
Lakers IMO missed Bynum's presence in the 2008 finals. It's why they lost. Celtics were too physical. 15 minutes of Bynum would've helped. Anything more would hurt.
I sincerly think playing Bynum and Pau together cost the Lakers at least one ring, either in 2011 or 2012. I hated it.

As for Kobe, yeah we know. He lucked into all of his championships etc.

[Heavincent]

You act like I'm saying they wouldn't be worse. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's not at all crazy to say they beat the Jazz and Rockets. Do I think they would? No idea...well, I definitely favor them over the Jazz. The Rockets is a different story...

They managed to blow out the Rockets in a do or die game 7 with Kobe not being much of a factor if I remember correctly...so I don't accept your premise that the Lakers can't do anything without Kobe.

You're overlooking the fact that they wouldn't be playing the Jazz in the first round. If they even make the playoffs (which would be highly questionable), they would likely be an 8 seed playing Denver, in which case they'd probably get swept.

[CanYouDigIt]

A lot of you really need to zip down your pants and let me gobble you

I agree

[Lakers2877]

You're overlooking the fact that they wouldn't be playing the Jazz in the first round. If they even make the playoffs (which would be highly questionable), they would likely be an 8 seed playing Denver, in which case they'd probably get swept.
They would have never even gotten to a game 7 without kobe either

Threads like these always show who the mental midgets are

[Bandito]

Implies that Orlando was bad finals competition

Orlando beat LeBron's Cavs in the ECF (LBJ had won regular season MVP and his team had the best regular season record that year)

OP then ignores this basic fact and decides to use the "LBJ had bad teammates" and "Kobe had a godly frontcourt" shtick instead. As always, this shtick is used in both of the following cases:

a) LBJ gets even the slightest bit of criticism
b) Kobe gets even the slightest bit of credit

Conclusion: LBJ is the GOAT and Kobe isn't even top 50 material
Welcome to ISH newbie:applause:

You just figured out ISH in such a short time. I hope you don't become on of the retarded trolls like OP!

[TonyMontana]

You act like I'm saying they wouldn't be worse. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's not at all crazy to say they beat the Jazz and Rockets. Do I think they would? No idea...well, I definitely favor them over the Jazz. The Rockets is a different story...

They managed to blow out the Rockets in a do or die game 7 with Kobe not being much of a factor if I remember correctly...so I don't accept your premise that the Lakers can't do anything without Kobe.

Yeah Kobe didn't really do much in the Game 7.

14 points on 4-12 shooting.....

It was the Lakers defense and interior play that won them that game 7.(just like in Game 7 vs Boston 2010).

-Houston only put up 70 points.
-The Lakers outrebounded them 55-33.
-Pau Gasol had 21 points-18 bounds-3 blocks on 53% shooting.
-Once again Kobe only 14 points on 4-12 shooting. A non-factor essentially.

[Rooster]

Yeah Kobe didn't really do much in the Game 7.

14 points on 4-12 shooting.....

It was the Lakers defense and interior play that won them that game 7.(just like in Game 7 vs Boston 2010).

-Houston only put up 70 points.
-The Lakers outrebounded them 55-33.
-Pau Gasol had 21 points-18 bounds-3 blocks on 53% shooting.
-Once again Kobe only 14 points on 4-12 shooting. A non-factor essentially.


:oldlol: so you look at the scoreboard and made your conclusion. I'm pretty sure the stat showed Kobe was just standing there and it was over.:facepalm :hammerhead:

[Lakers2877]

Yeah Kobe didn't really do much in the Game 7.

14 points on 4-12 shooting.....

It was the Lakers defense and interior play that won them that game 7.(just like in Game 7 vs Boston 2010).

-Houston only put up 70 points.
-The Lakers outrebounded them 55-33.
-Pau Gasol had 21 points-18 bounds-3 blocks on 53% shooting.
-Once again Kobe only 14 points on 4-12 shooting. A non-factor essentially.
Question for you. I often see you talk about how great the lakers bigs were and that's cool. But then I see you keep saying Boston would have won 3 straight in kg and perk never got hurt. Essentially you keep ignoring the lakers were without bynum in the 08 playoffs as well as Ariza, both whom started in 09 and were major contributors to the 09 title.

I'm sure you don't care because youre a troll who wants attention. But do you see how stupid you sound using injuries as an excuse for Boston while ignoring the laker injuries?

[longtime lurker]

Yeah Kobe didn't really do much in the Game 7.

14 points on 4-12 shooting.....

It was the Lakers defense and interior play that won them that game 7.(just like in Game 7 vs Boston 2010).

-Houston only put up 70 points.
-The Lakers outrebounded them 55-33.
-Pau Gasol had 21 points-18 bounds-3 blocks on 53% shooting.
-Once again Kobe only 14 points on 4-12 shooting. A non-factor essentially.

There is seriously something ****ing wrong with your brain.

[Quizno]

did you guys even watch basketball then? lmao if you think the lakers could have gotten past denver without kobe you are CRAZY. that series was extremely tough even with kobe putting up ridiculous numbers (34 ppg on 48% shooting and 6 apg). there is no way in hell the lakers get past the nuggets

pau was a GREAT player from 08-10 and i'll always love him for what he brought to the team but he wasn't nearly good enough to lead a team to a championship as the main option. the lakers team isn't nearly as stacked as some people would like to believe (so they can diminish kobe's legacy...i mean really guys wtf grow up. we all know what you're trying to do :oldlol: ). i'm not even gonna bother looking up his stats but bynum didn't have a huge role at all during that playoff run. he was more of a defensive anchor who played limited minutes (like 20 maybe?). he wasn't an offensive option at all. he got his points basically on putbacks. he probably put up like 6/8 in the playoffs

so no, pau has no chance of leading lamar odom (great player...but a role player), bynum, fisher, ariza, shannon brown, farmar and vujacic to a championship. it's not happening. they'd lose to utah in 6

i have no idea why i'm trying to make legit points on this forum though. the NBA forum is so bad now. people are "trolling" i get that, but it's so excessive now. it's not even entertaining to read

[Rooster]

did you guys even watch basketball then? lmao if you think the lakers could have gotten past denver without kobe you are CRAZY. that series was extremely tough even with kobe putting up ridiculous numbers (34 ppg on 48% shooting and 6 apg). there is no way in hell the lakers get past the nuggets

pau was a GREAT player from 08-10 and i'll always love him for what he brought to the team but he wasn't nearly good enough to lead a team to a championship as the main option. the lakers team isn't nearly as stacked as some people would like to believe (so they can diminish kobe's legacy...i mean really guys wtf grow up. we all know what you're trying to do :oldlol: ). i'm not even gonna bother looking up his stats but bynum didn't have a huge role at all during that playoff run. he was more of a defensive anchor who played limited minutes (like 20 maybe?). he wasn't an offensive option at all. he got his points basically on putbacks. he probably put up like 6/8 in the playoffs

so no, pau has no chance of leading lamar odom (great player...but a role player), bynum, fisher, ariza, shannon brown, farmar and vujacic to a championship. it's not happening. they'd lose to utah in 6

People look at the stats and they think they know how the game was won. Yes it does to a certain degree. But theres no way you look at the scoreboards and know how the champion was made. This is what OP trying to and it showed. How about watching a lot of games and see how plays were developed and executed to really know what you talking about.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

As far as the 2012 Lakers without Kobe

[chazzy]

Yeah Kobe didn't really do much in the Game 7.

14 points on 4-12 shooting.....

It was the Lakers defense and interior play that won them that game 7.(just like in Game 7 vs Boston 2010).

-Houston only put up 70 points.
-The Lakers outrebounded them 55-33.
-Pau Gasol had 21 points-18 bounds-3 blocks on 53% shooting.
-Once again Kobe only 14 points on 4-12 shooting. A non-factor essentially.
lol that game was seriously over by the 2nd quarter.

[PickernRoller]

:lol :lol People biting at DMavs and Tony's bait. I sometimes wonder if the trolls or those responding are stupider.

Baits are worded in a way to receive responses favorable to the troll - so the troll can exploit his victims.

Best way to deal with these novice morons is to call them straight out as retards and phagg0ts. Nothing more, nothing less. Explaining or exposing their stupidity only prolongs the nonsense. If you do respond to them, troll them right back.

[RRR3]

Sure, if Kobe's twin brother Coby (secretly dominating overseas in Greece under the alias "Vassilis Spanoulis") replaced him. Otherwise, no.

[The-Legend-24]

These nikkas were saying the same shit this past season. "Take Kobe off and let Dwight be the man" What happened? Swept. :oldlol:

This whole take Kobe out and the Lakers would be better shit ended this past season.

[TonyMontana]

These nikkas were saying the same shit this past season. "Take Kobe off and let Dwight be the man" What happened? Swept. :oldlol:

This whole take Kobe out and the Lakers would be better shit ended this past season.

I dont think anyone is saying the 2009 Lakers are better with Kobe out.

The question is do they still win the championship and if not how far do they go. No other team had even close to the talent that LA had. With KG out the league was weak.

[The Custodian]

All ya need to know:

Gasol 0-16 without kobe

Went through four top-10 defenses in the league
Jazz - 10th
Rockets - 4th
Nuggets - 8th
Magic - 1st

[The Rock]

Allowing Yourselves To Be Baited By This Tony Montana Character And This Mavs41 Kid, You Should Be Ashamed.

Lakers Don't Get Past The Nuggets Without Kobe. If You Watched The Series, And You Have No Bias, You Know Lakers Don't Get Past Nuggets Without Bryant.

Gasol With All-star Dwight Howard, Was Swept In The Playoffs Without Bryant. Couldn't Even Score, At All. Facts.

[tpols]

With Bynum injured and it being fisher/insert scrub/ariza/odom/pau .. theyre not going very far.


Who draws the defense out and feeds pau? Hell get hit with double teams all day, and then you have fisher and ariza as the two guys he will hve to kick it back out to the most. One guy that has minimal ability in Fisher and another that is merely mediocre and not a good decision maker.

You could try to have Odom control the ball more but he isnt going to be able to sit outside all game.. Odom always mixed it up inside and out.


So your left with memphis offense pretty much.. subpar perimeter talent that allows defenses to crash on Pau.. and he crumbles at that point. There a first round exit team at best.. they may not even win a game if history tells us anything

edit... wow just saw shannon brown would be starting sg lol.. turnover city on the perimeter in this hypo

[VIntageNOvel]

worse than cavs without bron

[ripthekik]

this montana kid is still here?? :oldlol: :oldlol:
then trying to prop down competition by saying magic sucks, forgetting that lebron just lost to them :lol

[VIntageNOvel]

this montana kid is still here?? :oldlol: :oldlol:
then trying to prop down competition by saying magic sucks, forgetting that lebron just lost to them :lol

no garnett! competition suck! :mad:

no rondo, rose, kobe, westbrook, parker injury, noah injury, rest of competition were on his team, GOAT competition :applause:

[TonyMontana]

no garnett! competition suck! :mad:

no rondo, rose, kobe, westbrook, parker injury, noah injury, rest of competition were on his team, GOAT competition :applause:

Kobes cast > LeBrons cast

Gasol is better than any two players on Miami combined. (Wade was a liability for the playoffs and Bosh averaged 4 RPG vs Indiana).

I would no doubt take a 27 year old Gasol over Wade on one knee, and Chris Bosh. So would any educated basketball fan.

Then theres Lamar Odom(who averaged 17-10 on a 2nd round team prior to LA) and Bynum who is one of the few two way players in the league with a 7 foot frame. The top frontcourt triosince the 80s Boston Celtics.

During LeBrons championships his team has overcome ADVERSITY, something Kobe cannot handle. Kobe plays well when his team is more stacked and there is little pressure on him to succeed expectations(which are already lower than LeBrons to begin with).

When their back is against the wall......

Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%


LeBron James Elimination Game Averages:
31.9 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.4 SPG, .6 BPG, 4.5 TOPG, 46.5 FG%, 31.4 3P%, 73.8 FT%


Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%


LeBron James G7 Stats:
34.4 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, .4 BPG, 2.4 TOPG, 47.4 FG%, 31.3 3P%, 79.4 FT%

Numbers courtesy of WayofWade....What they tell us is that LeBron has one of the best responses to pressure in NBA History. He elevates his game to another level when his team is on the brink of elimination. Kobe? He cowers up and performs at his worst. :oldlol:

Praise whoever Kobes marketer is because hes done a fantastic job of giving Kobe that "mentally tough" image when it is the farthest thing from the truth.

[VIntageNOvel]

Kobes cast > LeBrons cast

Gasol is better than any two players on Miami combined. (Wade was a liability for the playoffs and Bosh averaged 4 RPG vs Indiana).

I would no doubt take a 27 year old Gasol over Wade on one knee, and Chris Bosh. So would any educated basketball fan.

Then theres Lamar Odom(who averaged 17-10 on a 2nd round team prior to LA) and Bynum who is one of the few two way players in the league with a 7 foot frame. The top frontcourt triosince the 80s Boston Celtics.

During LeBrons championships his team has overcome ADVERSITY, something Kobe cannot handle. Kobe plays well when his team is more stacked and there is little pressure on him to succeed expectations(which are already lower than LeBrons to begin with).

When their back is against the wall......

Kobe Bryant Elimination Game Averages:
22.3 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, .6 BPG, 3.0 TOPG, 41.4 FG%, 27.5 3P%, 77.9 FT%


LeBron James Elimination Game Averages:
31.9 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.4 SPG, .6 BPG, 4.5 TOPG, 46.5 FG%, 31.4 3P%, 73.8 FT%


Kobe Bryant G7 Stats:
21.4 PPG, 7.1 RPG, 5.1 APG, .9 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 2.0 TOPG, 39.5 FG%, 32.4 3P%, 70.2 FT%


LeBron James G7 Stats:
34.4 PPG, 9.0 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.6 SPG, .4 BPG, 2.4 TOPG, 47.4 FG%, 31.3 3P%, 79.4 FT%

Numbers courtesy of WayofWade....What they tell us is that LeBron has one of the best responses to pressure in NBA History. He elevates his game to another level when his team is on the brink of elimination. Kobe? He cowers up and performs at his worst. :oldlol:

Praise whoever Kobes marketer is because hes done a fantastic job of giving Kobe that "mentally tough" image when it is the farthest thing from the truth.

tl:dr

gasol stat: 0-12 without kobe, so what's your point? :confusedshrug:
you said gasol was beasting in 09, so stat didnt really matter, and i agree, stats is conditional (ie. playin in weak conference affect your stat), so why bring stat? :confusedshrug:

now if you think gasol can still win without kobe,
then 09-10 Gasol > Lebron
Lebron Cast > Gasol Cast without kobe
/thread

[MaxFly]

Without Bryant, the 2009 Lakers would struggle against Denver and Houston for sure. However, I'm not certain they would even be able to get out of the first round. Bynum was a non factor in that series, putting up 5/3. Who would step up their scoring with Gasol and Odom seeing more defensive attention?

[Sun Devil]

A better question would be

"Do the 2009 Lakers still make the NBA playoffs without Kobe?"

[TonyMontana]

tl:dr

gasol stat: 0-12 without kobe, so what's your point? :confusedshrug:
you said gasol was beasting in 09, so stat didnt really matter, and i agree, stats is conditional (ie. playin in weak conference affect your stat), so why bring stat? :confusedshrug:

now if you think gasol can still win without kobe,
then 09-10 Gasol > Lebron
Lebron Cast > Gasol Cast without kobe
/thread

I thought you might actually bring something to the table. I was wrong. Noted to ignore in the future.

Another wilds09 that can't hold a conversation and doesn't know what capitalization is. Probably his alt :oldlol:


Without Bryant, the 2009 Lakers would struggle against Denver and Houston for sure. However, I'm not certain they would even be able to get out of the first round. Bynum was a non factor in that series, putting up 5/3. Who would step up their scoring with Gasol and Odom seeing more defensive attention?

There is no doubt they beat the Jazz with or without him.

I believe that they still beat Houston since Yao was out. That series went 7, but it was predictable as anything.

Nuggets were pretty good offensively, but their defense was pathetic. The other guys could have picked up Kobes production. Just look at Gasols percentage against them. 63.3%. If they went to him more like they would if Kobe was out, he would definitely have increased production. NOONE on Denver could cover him.

Am I the only one who remembers how irrelevant the Western Conference was from 2008-2010 apart from the Lakers?

[funnystuff]

Who does Kobe get replaced by?



IMO, replace any guard who can shoot above 35% and you have the same number of Laker rings as you would have without Kobe.

[VIntageNOvel]

I thought you might actually bring something to the table. I was wrong. Noted to ignore in the future.

Another wilds09 that can't hold a conversation and doesn't know what capitalization is. Probably his alt :oldlol:



There is no doubt they beat the Jazz with or without him.

I believe that they still beat Houston since Yao was out. That series went 7, but it was predictable as anything.

Nuggets were pretty good offensively, but their defense was pathetic. The other guys could have picked up Kobes production. Just look at Gasols percentage against them. 63.3%. If they went to him more like they would if Kobe was out, he would definitely have increased production. NOONE on Denver could cover him.

Am I the only one who remembers how irrelevant the Western Conference was from 2008-2010 apart from the Lakers?

why? cant argue any of my point :rolleyes:
i expect more than this, pauk
your 1500 words essay is better

[funnystuff]

why? cant argue any of my point :rolleyes:
i expect more than this, pauk
your 1500 words essay is better
Tony honestly types in no way similar to pauk.



Youre reaching so far. :roll: :roll:

[VIntageNOvel]

Tony honestly types in no way similar to pauk.



Youre reaching so far. :roll: :roll:

have you seen 2010 pauk? :rolleyes:


other dont agree with you

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8721128&postcount=6

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8731280#post8731280

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8695744&postcount=1603

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8853644&postcount=2

[funnystuff]

have you seen 2010 pauk? :rolleyes:


other dont agree with you

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8721128&postcount=6

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8731280&postcount=2
You show me 2 brain dead Kobe riders claiming that.


:facepalm :rolleyes:

[VIntageNOvel]

You show me 2 brain dead Kobe riders claiming that.


:facepalm :rolleyes:

read again hasnt finished editing :rolleyes:

theres more from graviton and buddhadii in whos RG thread, but i guess the mod deleted it, i think now youre the minority here, or another alt :rolleyes:

[funnystuff]

read again hasnt finished editing :rolleyes:

theres more from graviton and buddhadii in whos RG thread, but i guess the mod deleted it, i think now youre the minority here, or another alt :rolleyes:
You edit your post after i respond and say read again. :lol :lol :lol


Reeeeeeeeachhhhing. :lol :lol :lol

[VIntageNOvel]

You edit your post after i respond and say read again. :lol :lol :lol


Reeeeeeeeachhhhing. :lol :lol :lol

another failed attempt of misdirection :rolleyes:

i dont see how the edit/post is important

i put 2 links, you said its not enough evidence,
i put some more, edited it to group em up in one post,
and i said read again,
sensitive much arent you :rolleyes:

[TonyMontana]

Tony honestly types in no way similar to pauk.



Youre reaching so far. :roll: :roll:

:cheers:

I'm not pauk,RG,silk or any of these guys they say I am.

They cannot argue the material so they just pull this accusation bullshit. :oldlol:

The guy your talking to is wilds09/fresh kid, that knicks fan who is one of the lowest IQed posters on the site. People started ignoring him so hes on a new name. :oldlol:

[VIntageNOvel]

^ weak attempt of misdirection,
:rolleyes:
i dont even feel the need to try to deny:rolleyes:

you better go to your other thread, youre being exposed there,

p.s: im not the one who start it, so no need to take your alt to argue with me here

[VIntageNOvel]

:cheers:

I'm not pauk,RG,silk or any of these guys they say I am.

They cannot argue the material so they just pull this accusation bullshit. :oldlol:

The guy your talking to is wilds09/fresh kid, that knicks fan who is one of the lowest IQed posters on the site. People started ignoring him so hes on a new name. :oldlol:

================================================== ================================================== =

from last page:


tl:dr

gasol stat: 0-12 without kobe, so what's your point? :confusedshrug:
you said gasol was beasting in 09, so stat didnt really matter, and i agree, stats is conditional (ie. playin in weak conference affect your stat), so why bring stat? :confusedshrug:

now if you think gasol can still win without kobe,
then 09-10 Gasol > Lebron
Lebron Cast > Gasol Cast without kobe
/thread



I thought you might actually bring something to the table. I was wrong. Noted to ignore in the future.

Another wilds09 that can't hold a conversation and doesn't know what capitalization is. Probably his alt :oldlol:




hypocrite much:rolleyes:

[razzredazzre]

:( ...

[Nashty]

How is this even a question :facepalm

Of course they do.

[Mr. Jabbar]

No. But I do think Miami actually wins in 2011 without Lebron.

[Doranku]

No. But I do think Miami actually wins in 2011 without Lebron.
I was thinking that too. Without LeBron holding the team back, they would have definitely beaten the Mavs.

Replace him with someone like CJ Miles and they win for sure.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I was thinking that too. Without LeBron holding the team back, they would have definitely beaten the Mavs.

Replace him with someone like CJ Miles and they win for sure.

fact :applause:

[thabisyo]

:cheers:

I'm not pauk,RG,silk or any of these guys they say I am.

They cannot argue the material so they just pull this accusation bullshit. :oldlol:

The guy your talking to is wilds09/fresh kid, that knicks fan who is one of the lowest IQed posters on the site. People started ignoring him so hes on a new name. :oldlol:

Come to think of it. that guy did actually disappear

[fozi]

Then can you tell me how many rings you're idol would have if he didnt go to Miami and Join two franchise players ?

thought so.



LeBron failed in Cleveland, and the easiest decision to do is take his talent where he can get some assistance to get a ring..



How can you have a player that was dared to shoot in the finals ?

So unless he gets two more rings, your'e just a () rider, I know you're enjoying it but be real..
LeBron is good, but not in the Kobe's Bird's Shaq's level yet..

[MaxFly]

There is no doubt they beat the Jazz with or without him.

I believe that they still beat Houston since Yao was out. That series went 7, but it was predictable as anything.

Nuggets were pretty good offensively, but their defense was pathetic. The other guys could have picked up Kobes production. Just look at Gasols percentage against them. 63.3%. If they went to him more like they would if Kobe was out, he would definitely have increased production. NOONE on Denver could cover him.

Am I the only one who remembers how irrelevant the Western Conference was from 2008-2010 apart from the Lakers?

Carlos Boozer put up more points and rebounds than Gasol in that series and Bynum averaged 5/3. I think there is quite a bit of doubt they get passed the first round. You can't remove 27/5/5 and assume that the rest of the team will make up for that production in the playoffs.

The Lakers hardly got past Houston... which was a surprise... They certainly would have been booted in the second round had they managed to get past the first.

As for Denver, the Lakers would not have gotten there. Bryant averaged 34/5.8/5.8 in that series, and it went to 6 games. That is not production that is easily replaceable.

[Fresh Kid]

tha answer iz hellz no.

[kNicKz]

First round exit

[Vienceslav]

I think they would have won this year if Kobe got injured before the playoffs started.. oh wait.

[longtime lurker]

Carlos Boozer put up more points and rebounds than Gasol in that series and Bynum averaged 5/3. I think there is quite a bit of doubt they get passed the first round. You can't remove 27/5/5 and assume that the rest of the team will make up for that production in the playoffs.

The Lakers hardly got past Houston... which was a surprise... They certainly would have been booted in the second round had they managed to get past the first.

As for Denver, the Lakers would not have gotten there. Bryant averaged 34/5.8/5.8 in that series, and it went to 6 games. That is not production that is easily replaceable.

That's all that's needed to be said.

/thread

[SamuraiSWISH]

Why didn't Gasol carry the Lakers in 2011 playoffs when Kobe was hurt and struggling? If Gasol is that good, he should've put the team on his back.

The point is he's not that good. He's built to be a beta to someone else's alpha. That's how he flourished in LA. In Memphis as their best player, with a supreme coach like Hubie Brown, he did nothing. And it wasn't like that roster lacked talent, either.

[Jacks3]

Don't even make the playoffs.

[TonyMontana]

Why didn't Gasol carry the Lakers in 2011 playoffs when Kobe was hurt and struggling? If Gasol is that good, he should've put the team on his back.

The point is he's not that good. He's built to be a beta to someone else's alpha. That's how he flourished in LA. In Memphis as their best player, with a supreme coach like Hubie Brown, he did nothing. And it wasn't like that roster lacked talent, either.

Gasol was hurt in the 2011 playoffs as well. Ever think that was the reason LA came up short that year? Because Gasol played below his usual standards rather than the 20-11 he routinely put up?

After post Shaquille O'Neal and before Gasol there was a 3 year gap without a hall of fame center for the Lakers....0 playoff series won in that timespan.

The 2011 postseason was also the first postseason that Gasol was at PF fulltime....Gasol always flourished playing the majority of his minutes at Center.

Phil Jackson gave Pau the green light to start the season as Kobe was recovering from offseason knee surgery. That greenlight wasn't there with Paus injury in the playoffs along with Bryants shotjacking.


Challenged during the preseason by head coach Phil Jackson to assert himself more forcefully at the start of the season while Kobe Bryant continues his recovery from offseason knee surgery, Gasol responded with a trio of strong games. In victories over Houston, Phoenix, and Golden State, he averaged 25.3 points on 52.5 percent shooting, along with 10.3 rebounds and five assists per game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=5753535

[Replay32]

No man they wouldn't!!!! I don't even understand why this thread is even 7 pages. It's nothing to debate.

[Replay32]

worse than cavs without bron

This isn't true. The cavs struggled to win 1 game without lebron in the regular season. The lakers won their fair share of games without kobe and were still pretty competitive without kobe.

IMO, the lakers front court, phil jackson and that triangle offense had a lot to do with it. The lakers had better support than the cavs from 2008-2010.

The lakers could of possibly been a 8th seed in the playoffs without Kobe IMO. The lakers wouldn't of sniffed a championship without kobe though.

[Wavy Crockett]

No. But I do think Miami actually wins in 2011 without Lebron.


:cheers:

[Twiens]

I doubt they make the playoffs in that tough West. Pau/Odom are nice as 2nd/3rd options but don't have that "**** your team" killer instinct that any good #1 option needs. That plus the Lakers would have one of the worst backcourts in NBA history without Kobe..

[Trollsmasher]

Just give Pau more touches.

2009 (with and without Kobe on court, per 36 minutes):
With: 18-9-3, .618 TS%
Without: 19-10-4, .613 TS%

2010:
With: 17-11-3, .588 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .606 TS%


Playoffs:

2009:
With: 16-9-2, .622 TS%
Without: 19-12-2, .625 TS%

2010:
With: 17-10-3, .578 TS%
Without: 28-12-5, .767 TS%

[TonyMontana]

Just give Pau more touches.

2009 (with and without Kobe on court, per 36 minutes):
With: 18-9-3, .618 TS%
Without: 19-10-4, .613 TS%

2010:
With: 17-11-3, .588 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .606 TS%


Playoffs:

2009:
With: 16-9-2, .622 TS%
Without: 19-12-2, .625 TS%

2010:
With: 17-10-3, .578 TS%
Without: 28-12-5, .767 TS%

great numbers my man.

God dayum dat 2010 Pau. 28-12-5 on 77 TS%. Godly numbers. Can't believe he didn't get the Finals MVP.

[Trollsmasher]

great numbers my man.

God dayum dat 2010 Pau. 28-12-5 on 77 TS%. Godly numbers. Can't believe he didn't get the Finals MVP.
Kobe kept Pau's production low by being on court and hogging the ball most of the time:(

[MastaKilla]

Kobe kept Pau's production low by being on court and hogging the ball most of the time:(

***Wins 2 straight FMVPS***

[Doranku]

Just give Pau more touches.

2009 (with and without Kobe on court, per 36 minutes):
With: 18-9-3, .618 TS%
Without: 19-10-4, .613 TS%

2010:
With: 17-11-3, .588 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .606 TS%


Playoffs:

2009:
With: 16-9-2, .622 TS%
Without: 19-12-2, .625 TS%

2010:
With: 17-10-3, .578 TS%
Without: 28-12-5, .767 TS%

:oldlol: Both Kobe and Pau were playing 40+ minutes during those playoff runs. Gasol was out there without Kobe for maybe 10 minutes a game at the most. :roll: @ extrapolating those small minutes to 36 minutes a game.

Also, Pau would only be inserted without Kobe against opposing team's benches. So obviously his numbers during those minutes are going to be more impressive as not only is he going against weaker competition, but the offense would be run through him on the low block.

Now go kill yourself you f*cking idiot.

[Bandito]

Just give Pau more touches.

2009 (with and without Kobe on court, per 36 minutes):
With: 18-9-3, .618 TS%
Without: 19-10-4, .613 TS%

2010:
With: 17-11-3, .588 TS%
Without: 20-11-4, .606 TS%


Playoffs:

2009:
With: 16-9-2, .622 TS%
Without: 19-12-2, .625 TS%

2010:
With: 17-10-3, .578 TS%
Without: 28-12-5, .767 TS%
Why don't you count Pau 2013 stats without Kobe?

[Jacks3]

I doubt they make the playoffs in that tough West. Pau/Odom are nice as 2nd/3rd options but don't have that "**** your team" killer instinct that any good #1 option needs. That plus the Lakers would have one of the worst backcourts in NBA history without Kobe..
Yep.

[Jacks3]

Pau without Kobe in the postseason: 0-16

:roll:

[DMAVS41]

Why don't you count Pau 2013 stats without Kobe?

Why? We are talking about 2009.

:facepalm

[Thorn]

Hard to say what the conditions are with Kobe out - have the 09 Lakers played the entire season without him or is he knocked out of the playoffs in Game 82? If he's out for the entire season, then the all the seeds are changed, if he's out for the playoffs only, the Lakers chemistry + team defense are hindered. Let's assume he gets knocked out in Game 82.

To be honest I see it as a toss up in the first round vs Utah. Kobe draws so much defensive attention, with him out and Shannon Brown in his place that an intelligent team such as Utah can play off Brown and focus on Pau. Odom's a inconsistent guy and not suited to carry a large offensive load, especially with more attention on him. Bynum was injured for the playoffs and although he had the offensive talent, he wasn't contributing much and the Lakers were much better with the Odom/Gasol combo since their mobility made their team defense work plus they had good offensive chemistry. Ariza was great on threes that series but he benefited greatly from Kobe's presence, same with Fisher. Phil's a great coach, but his strategies can't replace Kobe. However, since Boozer is an atrocious defender, Pau could still have a good series even with Deron running over their back court defense. Depends if Lakers can hold Deron in check while putting up enough offense (in Game 3 where Kobe was 5/24 the Lakers only had 86 points, without him it will be even tougher). Lakers in a hard fought 6 or 7 games.

I'd call them underdogs vs Houston. Two of the best perimeter defenders in Battier and Artest, a quick, crafty PG in Brooks (who killed them that series), intelligent offense headed by Adelman...it going 7 wasn't a fluke. Kobe went off in the games the Lakers won (except Game 7 which was a blowout), without him I don't think the Lakers offense can muster enough points, also considering the Lakers will be more tired from a longer Jazz series and that Houston knows it can focus more on Pau and Odom. Don't think the Lakers win here without Kobe.

They don't win vs Denver and Orlando by default. Denver was top 10 in off/def that year, they were excellent in crunch time (during the RS, anyway) led by Melo and Billups, plus the altitude. They won in 6, but Ariza made two game saving defensive plays and Melo was only slightly worse than Kobe that series. I'd say Nuggets win in 4-5 if Kobe's out.

Same with Orlando - Games 2 and 4 went to OT and the Lakers could've easily lost both (and should've lost Game 4 tbh) and Kobe demolished the Magic that series. Kobe's help defense on Dwight was spectacular that series, without him the Lakers offense is much worse and Dwight does a lot better.

For people citing Pau's increased stats without Kobe, you gotta remember that: those stats come along with decreased efficiency with more shots + defensive attention, those stats are from small sample sizes where the scouting hadn't adjusted to Kobe's absence (which will cripple his stats as the series goes on) and the teams he was playing were overall worse than playoffs teams. It's easy to kill some terrible frontline, but to put up those stats vs teams that are top 10 in defense? It's not happening. We saw something similar happen this year - after Kobe tore his achilles, the Lakers beat the Spurs in the regular season. In the playoffs, the defense that won them that April game wasn't there since the Spurs adjusted and the Spurs defense swarmed Pau and Dwight (of course, all of the Lakers guards + Ron getting hurt didn't help) but the point is Pau isn't a Hakeem that can just flat out carry teams on his back.

[Doranku]

Hard to say what the conditions are with Kobe out - have the 09 Lakers played the entire season without him or is he knocked out of the playoffs in Game 82? If he's out for the entire season, then the all the seeds are changed, if he's out for the playoffs only, the Lakers chemistry + team defense are hindered. Let's assume he gets knocked out in Game 82.

To be honest I see it as a toss up in the first round vs Utah. Kobe draws so much defensive attention, with him out and Shannon Brown in his place that an intelligent team such as Utah can play off Brown and focus on Pau. Odom's a inconsistent guy and not suited to carry a large offensive load, especially with more attention on him. Bynum was injured for the playoffs and although he had the offensive talent, he wasn't contributing much and the Lakers were much better with the Odom/Gasol combo since their mobility made their team defense work plus they had good offensive chemistry. Ariza was great on threes that series but he benefited greatly from Kobe's presence, same with Fisher. Phil's a great coach, but his strategies can't replace Kobe. However, since Boozer is an atrocious defender, Pau could still have a good series even with Deron running over their back court defense. Depends if Lakers can hold Deron in check while putting up enough offense (in Game 3 where Kobe was 5/24 the Lakers only had 86 points, without him it will be even tougher). Lakers in a hard fought 6 or 7 games.

I'd call them underdogs vs Houston. Two of the best perimeter defenders in Battier and Artest, a quick, crafty PG in Brooks (who killed them that series), intelligent offense headed by Adelman...it going 7 wasn't a fluke. Kobe went off in the games the Lakers won (except Game 7 which was a blowout), without him I don't think the Lakers offense can muster enough points, also considering the Lakers will be more tired from a longer Jazz series and that Houston knows it can focus more on Pau and Odom. Don't think the Lakers win here without Kobe.

They don't win vs Denver and Orlando by default. Denver was top 10 in off/def that year, they were excellent in crunch time (during the RS, anyway) led by Melo and Billups, plus the altitude. They won in 6, but Ariza made two game saving defensive plays and Melo was only slightly worse than Kobe that series. I'd say Nuggets win in 4-5 if Kobe's out.

Same with Orlando - Games 2 and 4 went to OT and the Lakers could've easily lost both (and should've lost Game 4 tbh) and Kobe demolished the Magic that series. Kobe's help defense on Dwight was spectacular that series, without him the Lakers offense is much worse and Dwight does a lot better.

For people citing Pau's increased stats without Kobe, you gotta remember that: those stats come along with decreased efficiency with more shots + defensive attention, those stats are from small sample sizes where the scouting hadn't adjusted to Kobe's absence (which will cripple his stats as the series goes on) and the teams he was playing were overall worse than playoffs teams. It's easy to kill some terrible frontline, but to put up those stats vs teams that are top 10 in defense? It's not happening. We saw something similar happen this year - after Kobe tore his achilles, the Lakers beat the Spurs in the regular season. In the playoffs, the defense that won them that April game wasn't there since the Spurs adjusted and the Spurs defense swarmed Pau and Dwight (of course, all of the Lakers guards + Ron getting hurt didn't help) but the point is Pau isn't a Hakeem that can just flat out carry teams on his back.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[riseagainst]

Why? We are talking about 2009.

:facepalm

why do you only reply to him, who replies to a post about 2010?
agenda?