top 5 greatest peaks ever

[Electric Slide]

91 Jordan
13 Lebron
94 Hakeem
00 Shaq
67 Wilt

probably in that order although not entirely sure. 14 Lebron is the only player that could ever reach #1 though and if he doesn't, it's going to be a while before another player has the potential to do it (Wiggins?).

[Magic 32]

91 Jordan
13 Lebron
94 Hakeem
00 Shaq
67 Wilt

probably in that order although not entirely sure. 14 Lebron is the only player that could ever reach #1 though and if he doesn't, it's going to be a while before another player has the potential to do it (Wiggins?).

Lebron over Shaq?


http://6.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ktb6bpJ5Tk1qa748ko1_400.gif

[Marchesk]

Lebron over Shaq?

Yeah, I don't know about that. Shaq's 29.7, 13.6, 3.8, 3.0 on 57.4% is pretty damn good.

[Marchesk]

Mount Kareem:

34.8, 16.6, 4.6 on 57.4% and blocks weren't recorded yet.

Yeah, that's a bit higher than Mt. Bron.

[D-Rose]

RG...I'm disappointed man. You forgot one...


06 Yao

[Odinn]

OP is a proven idiot. Why people care about this thread? There are/were plenty threads about exact same thing started by much more respectably posters.


Bump this one folks;
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271230

[LosScandalous]

Bird's peak of 30/ 9.3/6.3 goes unmentioned all the time. 5-7 range easily and i'd include one of KAJ's season as a top 6 too. Pick his 74', 77' or 76' season whichever you like.

Other HMs: Kobe 2006/2008 l Magic 1987 l Duncan 03'

[russwest0]

No Karl Malone, no Wilt, but LeBron...

You all lost your basketball credibility

[Lakers2877]

Hate the guy but Bird won 3 straight Mvps

In 85 he averaged 29-11-7 52%fg, 43% 3pt fg

[Bobby13]

No 86 Bird but 13 Lebron? Ok

[SamuraiSWISH]

Best I've seen?

MJ '92
LeBron 2013
Shaq 2000
Hakeem '94
Duncan 2003

HM: CB34 '93 / Kobe 2008 / K. Malone '97

[Electric Slide]

No Karl Malone, no Wilt, but LeBron...

You all lost your basketball credibility
Wilt was there.

[Electric Slide]

Best I've seen?

MJ '92
LeBron 2013
Shaq 2000
Hakeem '94
Duncan 2003

HM: CB34 '93 / Kobe 2008 / K. Malone '97
No 04 KG at least as a HM? It's arguably better than 08 Kobe.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No 04 KG at least as a HM? It's arguably better than 08 Kobe.
I have to give nods to alphas who at the least took their team to the Finals. Otherwise, I'd be here listing players peaks all day. I think reaching the summit with your team is the defining characteristic for arguing the peaks of the greats. Now do you understand my logic? And that isn't to say 2004 KG wasn't a beast, because he was.

[KG215]

My top 4 are...

2000 Shaq
1967 Wilt
1991 Jordan
1994 Hakeem


After that, there's a host players with a good case for #5 in my opinion: Kareem, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Walton, LeBron, and Magic.

[fpliii]

My top 4 are...

2000 Shaq
1967 Wilt
1991 Jordan
1994 Hakeem


After that, there's a host players with a good case for #5 in my opinion: Kareem, Russell, Bird, Duncan, Walton, LeBron, and Magic.

I don't have a problem with your list or the OP's, but I'm drastically reevaluating my peaks list (don't do top 10 GOATs anymore, but these are still fun). I'm not sure if you post on the RealGM PC board, but ElGee's project has forced me to change how I think of players. If you're interested and have some time, I'd suggest you give it a shot (deceptively difficult, but incredibly rewarding).

[KG215]

I don't have a problem with your list or the OP's, but I'm drastically reevaluating my peaks list (don't do top 10 GOATs anymore, but these are still fun). I'm not sure if you post on the RealGM PC board, but ElGee's project has forced me to change how I think of players. If you're interested and have some time, I'd suggest you give it a shot (deceptively difficult, but incredibly rewarding).
Yeah, I lurk and occasionally post on RealGM. The Top 50 Peaks Project was one of the first threads I started going through when I first started lurking. Read through the actual individual threads for the top 10 or so and it's changed my view on some of them. That was when I really started to change my stance on Russell in terms of actual impact and peak play. I used to just think he was a great player with a consistently good prime, but not a high peak. And while I'm still not sure I 100% agree, I can get on board with someone arguing that he has a top 5 peak season.

I'm not going to post a link to the thread, because I don't know if that's a no-no or frowned upon, but I'll list their top 15. And for anyone wondering, it's actually some pretty knowledgeable posters who were involved. Pretty sure they didn't just let anyone be on the voting panel.

1.) 1991 Jordan
2.) 2000 Shaq
3.) 1965 Russell
4.) 1967 Wilt
5.) 1994 Hakeem
6.) 1977 Kareem
7.) 1986 Bird
8.) 1987 Magic
9.) 2003 Duncan
10.) 2009 LeBron
11.) 2004 Garnett
12.) 1977 Walton
13.) 1976 Dr. J
14.) 1963 Oscar Robertson
15.) 2008 Kobe


Only got to #33, though...what's up with that fpliii?

[fpliii]

Yeah, I lurk and occasionally post on RealGM. The Top 50 Peaks Project was one of the first threads I started going through when I first started lurking. Read through the actual individual threads for the top 10 or so and it's changed my view on some of them. That was when I really started to change my stance on Russell in terms of actual impact and peak play. I used to just think he was a great player with a consistently good prime, but not a high peak. And while I'm still not sure I 100% agree, I can get on board with someone arguing that he has a top 5 peak season.

I'm not going to post a link to the thread, because I don't know if that's a no-no or frowned upon, but I'll list their top 15. And for anyone wondering, it's actually some pretty knowledgeable posters who were involved. Pretty sure they didn't just let anyone be on the voting panel.

1.) 1991 Jordan
2.) 2000 Shaq
3.) 1965 Russell
4.) 1967 Wilt
5.) 1994 Hakeem
6.) 1977 Kareem
7.) 1986 Bird
8.) 1987 Magic
9.) 2003 Duncan
10.) 2009 LeBron
11.) 2004 Garnett
12.) 1977 Walton
13.) 1976 Dr. J
14.) 1963 Oscar Robertson
15.) 2008 Kobe


Only got to #33, though...what's up with that fpliii?

Oh I was talking about this project:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1241811

There seem to have been issues with the project you mentioned. I haven't read the whole thread yet so I shouldn't comment, but I think agendas/stubbornness came into play most likely (as opposed to lack of interest).

Another great one to look at is the retro player of the year project they did. I learned a lot there.

[Legends66NBA7]

No Karl Malone, no Wilt, but LeBron...

You all lost your basketball credibility

Karl Malone has a Top 5 peak for you ?

[KG215]

Oh I was talking about this project:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1241811

There seem to have been issues with the project you mentioned. I haven't read the whole thread yet so I shouldn't comment, but I think agendas/stubbornness came into play most likely (as opposed to lack of interest).

Another great one to look at is the retro player of the year project they did. I learned a lot there.
Oh, ok...yeah. I've browsed it, and have learned some things from it, but it's still a little too much for me to come up with answers in that format that I actually feel confident about.

[fpliii]

Oh, ok...yeah. I've browsed it, and have learned some things from it, but it's still a little too much for me to come up with answers in that format that I actually feel confident about.

Yeah I agree. I actually might not submit mine (since my values seem radically different than most others posted so far, though they're just drafts), but I'd like to keep track a record of them even if I decide not to share. I'm breaking mine into offensive/defensive contributions (might separate rebounding down the line).

[plowking]

Hakeem became so overrated post retirement. No one thought of his 94 season as some mythical journey when he was playing. There wasn't the same feel to it as there was for Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Lebron, and from what I read Wilt.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Hakeem became so overrated post retirement. No one thought of his 94 season as some mythical journey when he was playing. There wasn't the same feel to it as there was for Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Lebron, and from what I read Wilt.
It had a lessened feel due to the champ MJ being gone, truth be told. It definitely taken on a life of it's own post retirement. I think it's impressive that he essentially destroyed the best players at his position on the way to his two rings. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, all felt his wraith.

[Electric Slide]

Hakeem became so overrated post retirement. No one thought of his 94 season as some mythical journey when he was playing. There wasn't the same feel to it as there was for Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Lebron, and from what I read Wilt.
95 Hakeem was the post-season that everyone thought Hakeem was dominant in because he dominated Robinson and then Shaq, two guys that made higher All-NBA teams than he did.

Hakeem's peak is probably not even 94. It's probably 93 actually.

[ThaRegul8r]

Hakeem became so overrated post retirement. No one thought of his 94 season as some mythical journey when he was playing.

This much is true. No one was talking about Hakeem in a historic sense until the '95 postseason (specifically, the '95 WCF), a fact I've mentioned before. For me, what contemporaries say has to be factored into the equation, as if a season is an all-time peak, then his contemporaries should have been talking about it while it was actually happening. Anyone can spin anything how they want according to their agenda years after the fact.

[fpliii]

This much is true. No one was talking about Hakeem in a historic sense until the '95 postseason (specifically, the '95 WCF), a fact I've mentioned before. For me, what contemporaries say has to be factored into the equation, as if a season is an all-time peak, then his contemporaries should have been talking about it while it was actually happening. Anyone can spin anything how they want according to their agenda years after the fact.

Excellent points. I actually like Hakeem a lot, but in addition to his overall peak, somehow he's been elevated to a top two defender historically (not only squarely ahead of his peers Robinson and Mutombo, but almost universally ahead of Thurmond, as well as the Garnetts, Duncans, Wilts of the world). I don't want to derail the thread, but it's a strange phenomenon. I'm not going to fault anyone's thought process, it's just weird.

[nnn123]

Does overall playoffs + final performances not count when we make these "top peaks" threads? If they do count, why is LeBron included in these lists?

[ThaRegul8r]

Does overall playoffs + final performances not count when we make these "top peaks" threads? If they do count, why is LeBron included in these lists?

On various boards I've seen people yo-yo on LeBron. Since he's the newest GOAT candidate, people were already ready to crown LeBron '13 the GOAT peak, they were just waiting for him to win a title to justify it. Then during the postseason, I saw a lot of people criticizing him, and even the people hoping for this to be the GOAT peak had given up hope on that. Then after the Heat won Game 7, people were instantly updating their GOAT lists, and suddenly LeBron had a GOAT caliber peak again.

Basically, people make up their mind one way or the other, then confirmation bias takes over. I've said before that people are too knee-jerk over everything. No one should attempt to rank anything until everything's said and done, as if it is indeed the case, it'll still be so after you've taken some time to reflect. If something has to be judged immediately in order to be ___________, then I'm skeptical as to its validity.

[ILLsmak]

Hakeem became so overrated post retirement. No one thought of his 94 season as some mythical journey when he was playing. There wasn't the same feel to it as there was for Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Lebron, and from what I read Wilt.

He balled. I think looking back you can see how good it was, but the people who overrate Hakeem are the same people who overrate Duncan, dudes who have hatred for a player so they want to make Hakeem one of the ones who is better than him.

He's an amazing defender, tho.

-Smak

[KG215]

On Hakeem, his '95 Finals/playoffs is the first playoff/Finals I distinctly remember watching...and being in awe. I've since gone back and watched 1st 3-peat Jordan's Finals and a few Finals series from the '80s, but 1995 is the first one I can distinctly remember watching live. I was still too young, though, to fully understand public perception and whatnot. I don't necessarily disagree he's been elevated a bit in hindsight. I do seem to remember there being a bit of "Yeah but....what if Jordan hadn't retired?" talk when he won his titles in '94 and '95, maybe generating a misguided and unsure understanding and sense of just how good Hakeem was in winning back-to-back.

As for his best season and where it ranks...I put down '94 but I'm unsure. His '95 playoff run was insane, but I think he had a better regular season in '94 then he did in '95.

[WayOfWade]

Are we talking about just how good that player was that year, or also what they accomplished that year? Because Jordan's 89' averages of 32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, & 8 APG is pretty beastly, moreso than 91'. However he won the chip in 91' in absolutely dominating fashion.

[Miserio]

I still believe Charles Barkley is the best offensive player of all time.

28/11/3/59%FG/75%FT

[Marchesk]

I still believe Charles Barkley is the best offensive player of all time.

28/11/3/59%FG/75%FT


Dantley might have something to say about that:

29.5/6/3.8/56%/82% over a 7 year period.

[plowking]

Are we talking about just how good that player was that year, or also what they accomplished that year? Because Jordan's 89' averages of 32.5 PPG, 8 RPG, & 8 APG is pretty beastly, moreso than 91'. However he won the chip in 91' in absolutely dominating fashion.

Jordan spent more than half of that season asking the scorekeepers how his stats were so he could pad his overall numbers during the game.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Jordan spent more than half of that season asking the scorekeepers how his stats were so he could pad his overall numbers during the game.
No, that was the last quarter of the season where he played PG at Collins request. On a personal level MJ was fired up attempting to shut up the absurd "he doesn't make his teammates better" national sports talk and Magic comparisons.

Went out and in the last 20 or so games put up GODLY video game type numbers. Putting up triple doubles in almost all those games. Averaging around like 32 / 10 / 10 type numbers to finish the season.

[Magic 32]

2008 was the only year Kobe was at his peak WITH a championship level team.

Result = MVP + finals appearance

Lebron is now having his 4th season with this luxury. :banghead:


I still think 2006 Kobe on a great could have been a top 6 peak player.

He would have had to play more defense, but 33pts, 6ast, 6reb on 47% shooting would not be out of the question.

[plowking]

No, that was the last quarter of the season where he played PG at Collins request. On a personal level MJ was fired up attempting to shut up the absurd "he doesn't make his teammates better" national sports talk and Magic comparisons.

Went out and in the last 20 or so games put up GODLY video game type numbers. Putting up triple doubles in almost all those games. Averaging around like 32 / 10 / 10 type numbers to finish the season.

You sacrifice natural play, and at times winning play trying to fit a statistical box. I believe it was Collins that also told the scorekeepers to stop telling him at one point because it was impacting the games at times in a negative way with his play.

[plowking]

2008 was the only year Kobe was at his peak WITH a championship level team.

Result = MVP + finals appearance

Lebron is now having his 4th season with this luxury. :banghead:


I still think 2006 Kobe on a great could have been a top 6 peak player.

He would have had to play more defense, but 33pts, 6ast, 6reb on 47% shooting would not be out of the question.

Jesus, you're a sour puss. All you do is bitch and moan.

[Doranku]

You sacrifice natural play, and at times winning play trying to fit a statistical box. I believe it was Collins that also told the scorekeepers to stop telling him at one point because it was impacting the games at times in a negative way with his play.
Sounds like a certain someone else I know. :oldlol:

[EnoughSaid]

Wade 09 was a great peak for the modern era shooting guard.

[thabisyo]

2008 was the only year Kobe was at his peak WITH a championship level team.

Result = MVP + finals appearance

Lebron is now having his 4th season with this luxury. :banghead:


I still think 2006 Kobe on a great could have been a top 6 peak player.

He would have had to play more defense, but 33pts, 6ast, 6reb on 47% shooting would not be out of the question.

That is not Lebron's fault. Also, lebron is without a doubt to anyone as the best in the league

[pauk]

Based on a combination of productions, domination and accolades (stats, impact/team impact and result of that such as mvps, championships, fmvps etc. that year):

1. 2000 Shaquille Oneal
2. 1991 Michael Jordan
3. 2013 Lebron James
4. 1986 Larry Bird
5. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

[K Xerxes]

Peaks I've seen:

Jordan (91-93)
Shaq (00-02)
Hakeem (93-95)
LeBron (12-current)
Duncan (02-03)

KG in 04 and Barkley in 93 are up there as well.

If I'm looking at all time, Wilt and Kareem come into the top 5, bumping off LeBron and Duncan. Bird, Magic and Russell are in the bottom half of the top 10, but as I haven't seen them, I couldn't be completely sure myself.

[WillC]

Based on a combination of productions, domination and accolades (stats, impact/team impact and result of that such as mvps, championships, fmvps etc. that year):

1. 2000 Shaquille Oneal
2. 1991 Michael Jordan
3. 2013 Lebron James
4. 1986 Larry Bird
5. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

While I like your list, based upon your criteria (or indeed any criteria) you really need to have Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 in there somewhere.

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but he'd be a lock)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).

I'm not sure what more a player could do to deserve to be ranked in the top 5 peaks of all-time :applause:

[WillC]

In my opinion, factoring in regular season and playoff performances (and level of competition), the top 5 greatest peaks were as follows:

1st - Wilt Chamberlain (1966-67)
2nd - Michael Jordan (1990-91)
3rd - Shaquille O'Neal (1999-2000)
4th - LeBron James (2012-13)
5th - Larry Bird (1985-86)

Each of the above were championship seasons for teams with some of the best regular season records in NBA history. Each player was named MVP and Finals MVP (the award didn't exist in 1967 when Chamberlain would have won it). And each of the above seasons were arguably the best for the five aforementioned players.

The most honorable mention would fall to 1986-87 Magic Johnson followed by Hakeem Olajuwon in 1993-94.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's best statistical seasons generally didn't result in championships (although I think his 1970-71 championship season is underrated and would probably ranked 8th on my list).

The problem with Bill Russell is that it's hard to choose from his seasons; they were all sublime. One of those seasons would rank 9th on my list.

Tim Duncan and Oscar Robertson would fight it out for the 10th spot.

[thabisyo]

In my opinion, factoring in regular season and playoff performances (and level of competition), the top 5 greatest peaks were as follows:

1st - Wilt Chamberlain (1966-67)
2nd - Michael Jordan (1990-91)
3rd - Shaquille O'Neal (1999-2000)
4th - LeBron James (2012-13)
5th - Larry Bird (1985-86)

Your Top 3 order :facepalm

Nothing beats Prime Shaq beast mode... No one in the league could contain shaq.
Pippen could contain MJ, just that they were in the same team
As for wilt, I wasnt even born and never bothered looking up his footage cause if it not a full game, i couldnt be bothered. Anyone can look good in 5min clip and many greats have good stats

[WillC]

Your Top 3 order :facepalm

Nothing beats Prime Shaq beast mode... No one in the league could contain shaq.
Pippen could contain MJ, just that they were in the same team
As for wilt, I wasnt even born and never bothered looking up his footage cause if it not a full game, i couldnt be bothered. Anyone can look good in 5min clip and many greats have good stats

If you can't be bothered to research the all-time greats, then perhaps you should stay out of this discussion.

[thabisyo]

If you can't be bothered to research the all-time greats, then perhaps you should stay out of this discussion.

Did I not say I could only find small clips but no full games, maybe you need to learn to read instead of acting like a moron

[WillC]

Did I not say I could only find small clips but no full games, maybe you need to learn to read instead of acting like a moron

Ok, well done. I bow down to your superior knowledge of the game :oldlol:

[thabisyo]

Ok, well done. I bow down to your superior knowledge of the game :oldlol:

I am wasting my time with you. Only the guys that played against wilt know fully well what he could do. Any scrub in the league can look good in 5 min clip :roll: , Not calling wilt a scrub but just saying any scrub can look good in 5min clip

[WillC]

While I like your list, based upon your criteria (or indeed any criteria) you really need to have Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 in there somewhere.

Regular season: 24.1ppg, 24.2rpg, 7.8apg, .683 FG%

Playoffs: 21.7ppg, 29.1rpg, 9.0apg, .579 FG%

Achievements:
- Regular season MVP
- NBA champion
- Finals MVP (didn't exist back then but he'd be a lock)
- 68-15 regular season record
- Wilt's 1967 Warriors were the only team to ever defeat a healthy Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics team in a playoff series
- In Game 1 against Boston in the Eastern Conference Finals, Wilt Chamberlain had a quadruple-double with 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and (an unofficial) 12 blocks.
- One of only two times a player has ever been top 5 in PPG, RPG and APG (Wilt also did it in 1967-68).

I'm not sure what more a player could do to deserve to be ranked in the top 5 peaks of all-time :applause:

I just wanted to add some more weight to the argument of Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 season being the greatest peak ever.

- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.

- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.

- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.

[WillC]

I am wasting my time with you. Only the guys that played against wilt know fully well what he could do. Any scrub in the league can look good in 5 min clip :roll: , Not calling wilt a scrub but just saying any scrub can look good in 5min clip

Yeah, you're right, I'm basing all of my comments on just a 5 minute video clip. Damn, you sussed me out.

:facepalm

[LAZERUSS]

Did I not say I could only find small clips but no full games, maybe you need to learn to read instead of acting like a moron

How about this then...

And keep in mind that these are not all of his actual records, which are surely in the hundreds...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wilt_Chamberlain

[LAZERUSS]

I just wanted to add some more weight to the argument of Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 season being the greatest peak ever.

- In round 1 of the playoffs, Wilt's Philadelphia 76ers disposed of Oscar Robertson's Cincinnati Royals. In that series, Wilt averaged 28ppg, 26.8rpg and 11.0apg on 61% shooting.

- In round 2, the 76ers defeated the Boston Celtics 4-1. Wilt averaged 21.6ppg, 32.0rpg and 10.0apg on 56% shooting versus Russell's 11.4ppg, 23.4rpg and 6.0apg on 36% shooting. In other words, Wilt Chamberlain completely dominated Bill Russell.

- In the finals, Wilt helped the 76ers beat the San Francisco Warriors, who featured Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond.

That is the most transcendent season in NBA history.

I would add that Chamberlain badly outplayed Thurmond in the Finals that year, and in Nate's greatest season.

He outscored him in five of the six games. He outrebounded him in five of the six games. He outassisted him in five of the six games. And he outshot him in every game, and for the entire series, he outshot Thurmond by a staggering .560 to .343 margin. Keep in mind that a prime Kareem faced Thurmond in three straight playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and even .405.

And in the clinching game six win, Chamberlain outscored Thurmond, 24-12; outrebounded him, 23-22; and outshot him from the floor, 8-13 to 4-13.


As far as the Royals' series went, Chamberlain probably could have hung 40+ every game had he so chosen. As it was, in his first two games he scored 41, on 19-30 shooting, and 37, on 16-24 shooting. Incidently, in the 3rd game of that series, he put up a 16-30-19 game (yes, 19 assists.)

[chazzy]

Good lord, 2013 Lebron is being overrated in this thread. It's not even his own best season, let alone top 2-3 EVER :oldlol: His finals performance was underwhelming for his expectations, both in production and eye test ability (passing up open jumpers for half the series, tentative etc.) Use 09. Elite athleticism, had a good jumper and his mentality and approach to the game was never in question.

[WillC]

Good lord, 2013 Lebron is being overrated in this thread. It's not even his own best season, let alone top 2-3 EVER :oldlol: His finals performance was underwhelming for his expectations, both in production and eye test ability (passing up open jumpers for half the series, tentative etc.) Use 09. Elite athleticism, had a good jumper and his mentality and approach to the game was never in question.

I was actually considering LeBron's 2011-12 season instead of his 2012-13 effort, because of his superior post-season performances in 2011-12.

However, ultimately, there are two things which make 2012-13 stand out:

- The Heat's 27 game winning streak
- LeBron's insane .565 FG% and .406 3P%

He also had a career high 8.0rpg and tied career low 3.0tpg.

His 2009 playoff effort was something else though, I'll give him that.

It's difficult choosing a 'peak season' for most players, in fact.

[K Xerxes]

If you combine LeBron's 2013 RS with his 2012 PS run... you're looking at a real contender for GOAT season.

...Unfortunately, he was extremely underwhelming in two series in the 2013 playoffs (including the finals), which means there's no way that season is top 5.

His best season still remains 11-12, where he had a very dominant playoffs, and put up all time great performances against Indiana and Boston when his team was in trouble.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Good lord, 2013 Lebron is being overrated in this thread. It's not even his own best season, let alone top 2-3 EVER :oldlol: His finals performance was underwhelming for his expectations, both in production and eye test ability (passing up open jumpers for half the series, tentative etc.) Use 09. Elite athleticism, had a good jumper and his mentality and approach to the game was never in question.

I think people are referring to his 2013 regular season, not the post-season. If you consider the post-season, than 2012 is easily his best season yet.

[chazzy]

If you combine LeBron's 2013 RS with his 2012 PS run... you're looking at a real contender for GOAT season.

...Unfortunately, he was extremely underwhelming in two series in the 2013 playoffs (including the finals), which means there's no way that season is top 5.

His best season still remains 11-12, where he had a very dominant playoffs, and put up all time great performances against Indiana and Boston when his team was in trouble.
In terms of performance '12 is definitely a contender for his best season. I just felt that he had more ability in 09. His jumper went missing for a large part of the '12 playoffs, he overcame that with effort and hustle

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If you combine LeBron's 2013 RS with his 2012 PS run... you're looking at a real contender for GOAT season.

...Unfortunately, he was extremely underwhelming in two series in the 2013 playoffs (including the finals), which means there's no way that season is top 5.

His best season still remains 11-12, where he had a very dominant playoffs, and put up all time great performances against Indiana and Boston when his team was in trouble.

His 2013 season is somewhere in the top 20. I can think of a handful of better seasons (or years) Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Wilt, and Hakeem had...

[ShaqAttack3234]

2000 Shaq and '67 Wilt would be top 5 to me. '94 Hakeem would have to be in there as well for me considering what he did for that team at both ends. I think the reason '95 was mentioned more from a historical standpoint is because he had already won a title the previous year, and '95 was more or less solidifying his greatness, but as a stand alone season, Hakeem's '94 is every bit as worthy, and more consistent factoring in the regular season. Hakeem's '95 playoff run was even better, imo, and I think you can make the argument it was the best playoff run ever, but with the regular season in mind, as well as Hakeem's defense and rebounding in '94, I lean towards that as his peak. Of course, Hakeem's '93 is really underrated. Jordan would also have to be somewhere in my top 5. I'm just really undecided on '90, '91 and '92 as the season. I threw out '91 last night when asked this, so I'll stick to that for now, just for the purpose of the thread.

Then to round out the top 5, there are several candidates. '86 Bird, '74 or '77 Kareem, 1987 Magic, 2013 Lebron and '62, '64 or '65 Russell.

I'd be tempted to go with Kareem. He's another player who it's difficult to determine a year for. I guess '80 is another possible year for him, especially considering his playoff run, but I don't honestly believe he was a better player in '80 than he was in '77. Unfortunately, Kareem didn't win a title in '74 or '77, though he was extremely close in '74 with his game-winning sky hook forcing a game 7.

I really don't want to leave off Kareem or Bird, but I can't think of who I'd drop from my top 4.

[WillC]

2000 Shaq and '67 Wilt would be top 5 to me. '94 Hakeem would have to be in there as well for me considering what he did for that team at both ends. I think the reason '95 was mentioned more from a historical standpoint is because he had already won a title the previous year, and '95 was more or less solidifying his greatness, but as a stand alone season, Hakeem's '94 is every bit as worthy, and more consistent factoring in the regular season. Hakeem's '95 playoff run was even better, imo, and I think you can make the argument it was the best playoff run ever, but with the regular season in mind, as well as Hakeem's defense and rebounding in '94, I lean towards that as his peak. Of course, Hakeem's '93 is really underrated. Jordan would also have to be somewhere in my top 5. I'm just really undecided on '90, '91 and '92 as the season. I threw out '91 last night when asked this, so I'll stick to that for now, just for the purpose of the thread.

Then to round out the top 5, there are several candidates. '86 Bird, '74 or '77 Kareem, 1987 Magic, 2013 Lebron and '62, '64 or '65 Russell.

I'd be tempted to go with Kareem. He's another player who it's difficult to determine a year for. I guess '80 is another possible year for him, especially considering his playoff run, but I don't honestly believe he was a better player in '80 than he was in '77. Unfortunately, Kareem didn't win a title in '74 or '77, though he was extremely close in '74 with his game-winning sky hook forcing a game 7.

I really don't want to leave off Kareem or Bird, but I can't think of who I'd drop from my top 4.

Excellent choices and rationale.

It looks like we agree on the top players, although our order differs slightly.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Excellent choices and rationale.

It looks like we agree on the top players, although our order differs slightly.

Thanks, though I haven't put them into an order yet. It really gets tough for me to definitively say one was better player was better than another once you get to that level. I might be leaning towards Bird at the moment for what I mentioned prior about leading great teams, and the '86 Celtics are probably the best team ever, imo. In addition to what Bird did during that regular season and postseason, especially once he got healthier around January and went on that incredible run with the triple doubles and big games, leading them without McHale during that stretch ect. It also speaks volumes about Bird that not only could he play on a team with as many weapons as the '86 Celtics, but still stand out the way he did as well.

At the same time, I'm not comfortable at the moment saying Bird was better at his best than Kareem was at his. Part of this is something you alluded to earlier, which was Kareem winning a title in '71, but not in his best statistical seasons(and imo, his best seasons as a player.) The same is true about 1980. As a result, he doesn't really have that one standout season like the other players mentioned, which isn't necessarily an indictment on his play vs the others, but a testament to his great consistency and longevity.

[KG215]

I think Shaq and Wilt are 1 and 2 in some order, or 1a and 1b if you prefer. Can anyone honestly tell me that even the absolute best version of Jordan was a better and more impactful two-way player than 2000 Shaq and 1967 Wilt? He obviously didn't have the same defensive impact (even though he was a great perimeter defender at his best) and peak Shaq and Wilt were great offensive players, fully capable of carrying and anchoring an offense.

[livinglegend]

Why isnt 61-62 Wilt on anybody s list?

[WillC]

Why isnt 61-62 Wilt on anybody s list?

Although Wilt's 1961-62 regular season statistics were mind blowing, there are some things to bear in mind:

- His team (Philadelphia Warriors) 'only' had the 3rd best record in the NBA that season

- The Celtics beat the Warriors in the Eastern Conference Finals (although it did take 7 games)

- Wilt hadn't yet learned to play team ball. Most historians agree that he reached his true peak in 1966-67, when his 76ers team bulldozed their way through the NBA, even defeating Russell's Celtics in the playoffs. That was the year that Wilt embraced team basketball

- Wilt was far better in the 1966-67 playoffs than in 1961-62.

It's a bit like Kobe Bryant in 2005-06, when he averaged over 35ppg. On paper that seems remarkable, but then you consider that the Lakers only won 45 games and got knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs. Suddenly it wasn't so great after all.

[Scholar]

I'll go by the best I've seen.

'00 Shaq
'13 LeBron
'06 Kobe
'05 Nash
'09 Wade

I'm sure there are plenty others worth listing, such as '01 Iverson or '04 KG, but I think these are the 5 best I actually saw with my own two eyes, instead of hearing about it or just seeing stats/highlight vids.

[Scholar]

Although Wilt's 1961-62 regular season statistics were mind blowing, there are some things to bear in mind:

- His team (Philadelphia Warriors) 'only' had the 3rd best record in the NBA that season

- The Celtics beat the Warriors in the Eastern Conference Finals (although it did take 7 games)

- Wilt hadn't yet learned to play team ball. Most historians agree that he reached his true peak in 1966-67, when his 76ers team bulldozed their way through the NBA, even defeating Russell's Celtics in the playoffs. That was the year that Wilt embraced team basketball

- Wilt was far better in the 1966-67 playoffs than in 1961-62.

It's a bit like Kobe Bryant in 2005-06, when he averaged over 35ppg. On paper that seems remarkable, but then you consider that the Lakers only won 45 games and got knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs. Suddenly it wasn't so great after all.

Well, to be fair, I think "peak" should be about individual performances, not a team performance. Just like Wade in '09 was an elite player dropping nearly 40 a night on a consistent basis, yet his team was garbage. Is it Wade's fault the Heat had a horrible roster that season? No. He did what he did best. He had an amazing individual season. It just so happens his team didn't.

I don't think a peak should be judged on the team's overall performance because the player himself did all he could do with what he had.

[Marchesk]

I don't think a peak should be judged on the team's overall performance because the player himself did all he could do with what he had.

I kind of agree with this. And I'm not sure about including playoff performances either. They're separate, and a lot of it depends on your team and the matchups.

There is peak regular season play, and peak playoff performances, and peak team play, and they don't always coincide for a great player.

[KG215]

Well, to be fair, I think "peak" should be about individual performances, not a team performance. Just like Wade in '09 was an elite player dropping nearly 40 a night on a consistent basis, yet his team was garbage. Is it Wade's fault the Heat had a horrible roster that season? No. He did what he did best. He had an amazing individual season. It just so happens his team didn't.

I don't think a peak should be judged on the team's overall performance because the player himself did all he could do with what he had.
There's some validity to this, but at the same time peak play doesn't always necessarily mean best statistical seasons. There's the mental side of the game, too, and I think this is what comes into play when talking about Wilt. Like WillC said, 1967 wasn't necessarily his most statistically overwhelming season, but it was the year he "got it" in terms of how to be a team player.

I think, in a different sense, you can use 2009 or 2010 LeBron compared to 2012 or 2013 LeBron. 2009 and 2010 LeBron was better athletically; he was quicker, faster, and more explosive than he was in 2012 and 2013. I'm having a hard time finding the right word(s) to describe it, but he was a different, more heady player in 2012 and 2013 in my opinion.

With Kobe, I think the reason a lot of people consider 2008 his peak is because it was the first year, since the 3-peat, that he put forth consistent effort on defense, and was a great two-way player. It just happened to coincide with the Gasol trade, thus Kobe had a better supporting cast, and they made a run to the Finals. Granted, part of the reason he wasn't that good defensively in 2006 is because he was asked to shoulder a ton of responsibility offensively, which he wouldn't have been able to do if he was keyed in and exerting more energy on defense.

[Odinn]

Although at first, I thought this was a troll thread, with some acknowledgeable posters contributing this thread deserves a serious respond.

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Larry Bird
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Tim Duncan
8. LeBron James
9. Magic Johnson
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Moses Malone
12. Bill Russell

[The Iron Fist]

Mount Kareem:

34.8, 16.6, 4.6 on 57.4% and blocks weren't recorded yet.

Yeah, that's a bit higher than Mt. Bron.
Its amazing how people overlook the GOAT.

[KG215]

I think part of the reason people (myself included) are a little wary of Kareem's early and mid-70's numbers is because it came during arguably the weakest era in NBA history. While I haven't really came to a definitive conclusion on what I consider his best/peak season, I do see 1977 get used more often than not, and it probably has something to do with that being post-merger.

[magnax1]

Off the top of my head Id probably build a list this way
League of their own-
89 Jordan
67 Wilt
Top tier-
86 Bird
06 Kobe
13 Lebron
00 Shaq
77 Kareem
94 Hakeem
62/65 Russell

Cutting it off at 5 players is hard because Jordan and Wilt are really the only ones who stick out (I wouldnt be too mad if someone stuck Shaq up there with those two. He was undeniably dominant) I think there are even a couple guys you could add to the top tier list who had 1 or 2 great years but kind of mediocre careers (in a relative sense) so that they kind of stuck out when placed up with greats.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think part of the reason people (myself included) are a little wary of Kareem's early and mid-70's numbers is because it came during arguably the weakest era in NBA history. While I haven't really came to a definitive conclusion on what I consider his best/peak season, I do see 1977 get used more often than not, and it probably has something to do with that being post-merger.

Kareem is hard to pin down, though from what I've read as well, as common sense, I'd be very surprised if Kareem peaked in just his 2nd or 3rd year.

In addition to getting physically stronger later, Kareem seemed to show a more diverse game out of necessity.

Here's a quote on this from the '77 season.


There was a time not too long ago when practically all of his points were off the "sky hook" or dunks. Now he also shoots a left-handed hook, short turnaround jumpers and drives to the basket. He has worked on improving his game and knows he is a better player now than ever before.

"I've always had the ability to score in ways other than the hook, but this is the first chance I've had to do it. We'd be running into each other in Milwaukee if I tried to play there like I am now.

The first four or five years I was in the league, I was played basically one on one. There are 2 1/2 men on me all of the time now. One in back, one in front and a guard going for the ball. It's made it necessary for me to do other things."

Of course in that quote, Kareem's statement that he was doubled a lot more in '77 than his first 4-5 years alone makes it difficult to just look at the stats as a direct comparison when judging his seasons.

Here are a couple more quotes.


Because the top of his head is less than 3 feet below the rim of the basket, many people shrug at Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's skill. But those people don't understand basketball.

"He has a tremendous burden," Jerry West, his coach on the Los Angeles Lakers, said. "He's expected to do more than anybody in the league; score, rebound and block shots."

And as he approaches his 30th birthday, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has turned that burden into a testimonial. He remains the National Basketball Association's most dominant player, second to Pete Maravich in scoring with an average of 27.2 points and second to Bill Walton in rebounds, with a 14.5 average and blocked shots, with a 3.04 average. But those numbers are not why Kareem Abdul-Jabbar believes that he is playing better than he ever has in his eight seasons.

"I have more understanding of the game," he said. "The little things you have to do well. When to switch, when not to. When to help out, when not to. When to pass, when to hold the ball."


Neither migraine headaches nor Clifford Ray have hindered the Lakers' 7-foot-2 center, who scored 40 points, grabbed 19 rebounds and blocked nine shots Friday night to lift Los Angeles to a 95-86 victory and a 2-0 lead in the series.

"Kareem has been absolutely magnificent in the first two games," Lakers coach Jerry West said. "I can't recall anyone being so dominant in all phases of the game in a long, long time. In both games, we struggled in several situations, but he went back in and really picked us up. I'll tell you, it's a good feeling to have a force like that.

As far as the numbers, they were obviously great. 3rd in the league in scoring at 26.2 ppg, 2nd in rebounding at 13.3 rpg, 2nd in blocks at 3.2 per game, and he led the league in FG% at 57.9% while shooting a solid 70.1% from the line. He was also selected to the all-defensive second team.

More importantly, he led the Lakers to the best record in the league at 53-29, and a few things to consider about that.

One, the Lakers were far from the most talented team in the league. Kareem had just two teammates average double figures that year. One was Cazzie Russell who averaged about 16/4/3 on 49% shooting and 86% from the line. From what I know, Cazzie was known as a talented individual scorer, but best in a smaller role where his scoring could provide a spark like what he did on the 1970 Knicks. Lucius Allen was the other who averaged 15/3/5 on 46% and 77% from the line. Other than that, he had Kermit Washington who averaged about 10/9 on 50% and 71% from the line and was known primarily for defense, rebounding and physical play. Washington also missed 29 games.

Aside from not great offensive support around Kareem, he also lacked help on the boards(a common theme with those late 70's Lakers) particularly with Kermit Washington missing more than 1/3 of the season. For proof of this, just look at the fact that the Lakers were outrebounded by 2 boards per game, which is terrible.

So it's quite an accomplishment for Kareem to lead this team to the best record. The Lakers also only won games by 2.7 ppg, 5th best in the league, and well behind the top teams such as Portland(+5.6) and Denver(+5.2) Part of the reason for the Lakers overachieving seemed to be Kareem's clutch play such as his 20 point 4th quarter in a 94-91 win on March 11th. As Jerry West said after that game "He made all the key offensive and defensive plays down the stretch." "If he's not the greatest player in the game, I haven't seen the other guy." Or a 15 point 4th quarter to overcome a 12 point deficit on January 9th vs Detroit. On the game directly after that, he hit the game-winner to finish with 40 points in a 101-99 win.

In the playoffs, Kareem had an even bigger load to carry with Kermit Washington out the entire playoffs, and Lucius Allen injured as well. The load he had to carry to beat the Warriors itself was ridiculous. He had four 40 point games in the series alone, none with less than 18 rebounds, including 3 games in a row with 41/18, 45/18, 43/20 and then a 36/26 game 7. He had another 40+ game in game 2 of the WCF, this time with 17 rebounds. He ended up averaging 35/18/4 with 3.5 bpg on 61% shooting in 11 playoff games.

I'd bet '77 was his peak, and based on things like what I mentioned in this post, it seems worthy of top 5 consideration at the very least. It's also difficult to imagine any other player in his situation those playoffs winning a title. Not with the injuries to Washington and Allen and how limited that cast was to begin with.

[Marchesk]

Bob McAdoo never gets mentiioned on these peak lists, but statistically he did have a monster season in 74-75:

34.5 ppg, 14.1 rbg, 2.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.1 bpg, 51.2 FG%, 80.5 FT%

I'm curious as to how far that's off from the other great peaks.

[LAZERUSS]

Bob McAdoo never gets mentiioned on these peak lists, but statistically he did have a monster season in 74-75:

34.5 ppg, 14.1 rbg, 2.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 2.1 bpg, 51.2 FG%, 80.5 FT%

I'm curious as to how far that's off from the other great peaks.

Not only that, but the "pace" of the 74-75 season was nearly on the level of today's era, as well. The NBA averaged 102.6 ppg on a .457 FG% that season.

He won the scoring title by 4 ppg, and was fifth in FG% at .512, despite consistently shooting the ball from up to 20 ft. And his FT% of .805 would be considered exceptional for any center.

And then in his seven game post-season, he averaged 37.4 ppg, 13.4 rpg, and shot .481 (again, shooting from up to 20 ft.), which included a 50 point game against Wes Unseld.

Furthermore, compare the 23 year old McAdoo with the 27 year old Kareem that season:

KAJ averaged 42.3 mpg, averaged 30.0 ppg, grabbed 14.0 rpg, handed out 4.1 apg, had 3.3 bpg, shot .513 from the fied, and .763 from the line.

McAdoo played 43.2 mpg, averaged 34.5 ppg, grabbed 14.1 rpg, handed out 2.2 apg, had 2.1 bpg,shot .512 from the field, and .805 from the line.

And finally, McAdoo and KAJ went h2h four games that season. And while I only have their scoring numbers in those games, here they were:

1. KAJ 36 points, McAdoo 37 points
2. KAJ 31 points, McAdoo 29 points
3. KAJ 34 points, McAdoo 38 points
4. KAJ 27 points, McAdoo 33 points.

Incidently, McAdoo's career high game against KAJ was 41 points.

[KG215]

Kareem is hard to pin down, though from what I've read as well, as common sense, I'd be very surprised if Kareem peaked in just his 2nd or 3rd year.

In addition to getting physically stronger later, Kareem seemed to show a more diverse game out of necessity.
Yeah, I've always felt the same way, which is why I've been even more hesitant to peg one of Kareem's first 3-4 seasons as his peak. Like you, mostly because logic tells me otherwise. Especially for a great player that had a long, healthy career. If he was a T-Mac or Walton, and started suffering career debilitating injures before 25, sure. But I don't think Kareem was peaking in his first few seasons. Then, like I said, the early and mid-70's, pre-merger, from everything I've read is about as watered down as the league has ever been. Then you throw in the league expanding from 10 teams in 1968 to 17 teams by 1970-1971 and the talent in the early and mid-70's was even more diluted.



Of course in that quote, Kareem's statement that he was doubled a lot more in '77 than his first 4-5 years alone makes it difficult to just look at the stats as a direct comparison when judging his seasons.

As far as the numbers, they were obviously great. 3rd in the league in scoring at 26.2 ppg, 2nd in rebounding at 13.3 rpg, 2nd in blocks at 3.2 per game, and he led the league in FG% at 57.9% while shooting a solid 70.1% from the line. He was also selected to the all-defensive second team.

More importantly, he led the Lakers to the best record in the league at 53-29, and a few things to consider about that.

One, the Lakers were far from the most talented team in the league. Kareem had just two teammates average double figures that year. One was Cazzie Russell who averaged about 16/4/3 on 49% shooting and 86% from the line. From what I know, Cazzie was known as a talented individual scorer, but best in a smaller role where his scoring could provide a spark like what he did on the 1970 Knicks. Lucius Allen was the other who averaged 15/3/5 on 46% and 77% from the line. Other than that, he had Kermit Washington who averaged about 10/9 on 50% and 71% from the line and was known primarily for defense, rebounding and physical play. Washington also missed 29 games.

Aside from not great offensive support around Kareem, he also lacked help on the boards(a common theme with those late 70's Lakers) particularly with Kermit Washington missing more than 1/3 of the season. For proof of this, just look at the fact that the Lakers were outrebounded by 2 boards per game, which is terrible.

So it's quite an accomplishment for Kareem to lead this team to the best record. The Lakers also only won games by 2.7 ppg, 5th best in the league, and well behind the top teams such as Portland(+5.6) and Denver(+5.2) Part of the reason for the Lakers overachieving seemed to be Kareem's clutch play such as his 20 point 4th quarter in a 94-91 win on March 11th. As Jerry West said after that game "He made all the key offensive and defensive plays down the stretch." "If he's not the greatest player in the game, I haven't seen the other guy." Or a 15 point 4th quarter to overcome a 12 point deficit on January 9th vs Detroit. On the game directly after that, he hit the game-winner to finish with 40 points in a 101-99 win.

In the playoffs, Kareem had an even bigger load to carry with Kermit Washington out the entire playoffs, and Lucius Allen injured as well. The load he had to carry to beat the Warriors itself was ridiculous. He had four 40 point games in the series alone, none with less than 18 rebounds, including 3 games in a row with 41/18, 45/18, 43/20 and then a 36/26 game 7. He had another 40+ game in game 2 of the WCF, this time with 17 rebounds. He ended up averaging 35/18/4 with 3.5 bpg on 61% shooting in 11 playoff games.

I'd bet '77 was his peak, and based on things like what I mentioned in this post, it seems worthy of top 5 consideration at the very least. It's also difficult to imagine any other player in his situation those playoffs winning a title. Not with the injuries to Washington and Allen and how limited that cast was to begin with.
Appreciate the rest of the post. I've always leaned towards 1977 as his peak, mostly from what I've read and studying BBR, which isn't the best way to come to a reasonable conclusion on a player.

[fpliii]

I think Shaq and Wilt are 1 and 2 in some order, or 1a and 1b if you prefer. Can anyone honestly tell me that even the absolute best version of Jordan was a better and more impactful two-way player than 2000 Shaq and 1967 Wilt? He obviously didn't have the same defensive impact (even though he was a great perimeter defender at his best) and peak Shaq and Wilt were great offensive players, fully capable of carrying and anchoring an offense.

I think I'd agree with this. I think MJ is the top non-big, but due to what you stated (plus the rebounding advantage), I don't think I can put him in that top class. He's not far off at all, but putting him ahead of those dominant two-way bigs (and possibly a couple of others) a tough sell.

[LAZERUSS]

Most "experts" tab Chamberlain's peak at that 66-67 season. However, he just blew away Russell, Thurmond, and Bellamy in their h2hs in the 65-66 season (10 with Bellamy, nine with Nate, and a total of 14 with Russell, which included their five playoff h2h's.) And Reed was fortunate that he was now a PF alongside Bellamy, because just the year before, and in their nine h2h's, Chamberlain murdered him to the tune of 40 ppg. Offensively, and it might have been Wilt's greatest season.

I don't think there has ever been a center who so thoroughly dominated the other great centers in a league in the same season, as Chamberlain did to those HOFers (although you could probably make an argument for all of his seasons prior.)

He had games in which he outscored Bellamy, 50-26: Russell, 46-18; and Thurmond, 45-13. And, if you add up the total h2hs with those three HOF centers, it was 33, and Chamberlain held a 29-3-1 scoring edge. And while I only have his rebounding h2h's with Russell (a 10-4 advantage, and some were huge margins), given his history of known rebounding games with both Bellamy and Thurmond, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't hold something like a 17-2 margin over those two.

Had his teammates not completely puked all over the floor in the EDF's that year, he would have won his first ring in that season. As it was, it would come the very next year, and in a dominating fashion.

[La Frescobaldi]

Top 3 players of all time have this all locked up.

Chamberlain '68
Chamberlain '67
Jordan '87
Jabbar '71
Jordan '91
Jabbar '77

Chamberlain has to have several of the next seasons. His '72 run was filled with 30 30 games where he would absolutely shut down entire teams on defense and tear holes in their home courts with thunderous dunks on offense. Ten years earlier his transcendant 1962 season set dozens of records; all time PPG, all time RPG, all time points in a quarter, a game, free throws...... virtually every record standing he knocked down, destroyed, and rebuilt in 7 feet 1 inches of towering achievement.

Jabbar on the Bucks was a blitzkrieg and his game only grew more polished. To me Kareem became utterly towering after the Lakers built Showtime; his precision game was never more apparent than in those fast break days.
Jordan? What can you say the guy just tore it up worldwide for a decade.

To me Shaq is about the only player that has approached those three guys. Russell may have had seasons like those in the 50s/early 60s but I don't have any knowledge of them.
Yeah Lazer is right too, McAdoo set the NBA on fire in his days.... but to me he's with Bird & Magic in the next tier..... the merely elite, human level

[fpliii]

What if we separate peaks into offense and defense. Who would be everyone's top 5 on each side of the ball?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, I've always felt the same way, which is why I've been even more hesitant to peg one of Kareem's first 3-4 seasons as his peak. Like you, mostly because logic tells me otherwise. Especially for a great player that had a long, healthy career. If he was a T-Mac or Walton, and started suffering career debilitating injures before 25, sure. But I don't think Kareem was peaking in his first few seasons. Then, like I said, the early and mid-70's, pre-merger, from everything I've read is about as watered down as the league has ever been. Then you throw in the league expanding from 10 teams in 1968 to 17 teams by 1970-1971 and the talent in the early and mid-70's was even more diluted.



Appreciate the rest of the post. I've always leaned towards 1977 as his peak, mostly from what I've read and studying BBR, which isn't the best way to come to a reasonable conclusion on a player.

Yeah, it's really more to do with his game than trying to judge his numbers pre-merger. I don't think numbers were ever a question for Kareem. Not as a rookie, and not later.

What it came down to for me is Kareem not losing anything at just 29/30 in '77, but showing a more diverse offensive game and being stronger physically.

So if someone tries to make the case for Kareem peaking early because of stats, it's just not a compelling argument to me when you can look more in-depth. And then there's the time to consider how Kareem says he was played mid 70's on vs early 70's as well as pre-merger/post-merger when looking at stats. Plus, if you notice, Kareem's stats usually fell considerably in Milwaukee, while the opposite is true in LA.

But with that being said, I do believe Kareem was likely a better defender, and ran the floor more frequently in his Milwaukee days based on what I've heard. And this makes sense considering his Buck teams were great defensively, while his Laker teams were usually average.

What's amazing though is the type of impact he made as a rookie taking a 27 win expansion team to 55 wins, and then a decade later, he leads LA to a title averaging 32/12/3/4 on 57 FG%/79 FT% during the playoffs and that was after a regular season that he was voted MVP and all-defensive first team in while leading LA to 60 wins.

[ZaaaaaH]

Best I have seen since 90's

Shaq
MJ
Kobe
Hakeem
TD


LeBron and KG

[La Frescobaldi]

Yeah, it's really more to do with his game than trying to judge his numbers pre-merger. I don't think numbers were ever a question for Kareem. Not as a rookie, and not later.

What it came down to for me is Kareem not losing anything at just 29/30 in '77, but showing a more diverse offensive game and being stronger physically.

So if someone tries to make the case for Kareem peaking early because of stats, it's just not a compelling argument to me when you can look more in-depth. And then there's the time to consider how Kareem says he was played mid 70's on vs early 70's as well as pre-merger/post-merger when looking at stats. Plus, if you notice, Kareem's stats usually fell considerably in Milwaukee, while the opposite is true in LA.

But with that being said, I do believe Kareem was likely a better defender, and ran the floor more frequently in his Milwaukee days based on what I've heard. And this makes sense considering his Buck teams were great defensively, while his Laker teams were usually average.

What's amazing though is the type of impact he made as a rookie taking a 27 win expansion team to 55 wins, and then a decade later, he leads LA to a title averaging 32/12/3/4 on 57 FG%/79 FT% during the playoffs and that was after a regular season that he was voted MVP and all-defensive first team in while leading LA to 60 wins.

If you study the books you will consistently find that the greatest NBA players have their "best" season in year 3 to 5. I mean individually here, where that glowing, incandescent fiery game fully appears!!
Cousy: 1955
Chamberlain: 1962
Jabbar: 1971
Barkley: 1988
Pippen: 1992
Russell: perhaps 1960 or 61
Jordan: '87
McAdoo: '74 or '75
Worthy: '86 or '87
Shaq: '95
Lebron: '06 or '07

There are exceptions, sure...... Bird, Hondo, Kobe, Julius Erving.... but most times there are reasons for that - Hondo sat the bench behind the Jones brothers, Dr. J was in the ABA.. Kobe was a bit young and spent a couple years on the bench but sure enough he showed up in his 3rd or 4th full season.... but even with Julius... check out the Doctor in '75 and what do you see? Smashing domination of the ABA.

Many greats have their "coming out party" in their 3rd or 4th year, after they've learned the League, learned what each player can do..... and then they destroy them all.

I think possibly you're understating Jabbar in his Bucks days. That man was an incredible power in the league, coaches were up nights doing all their sums again because a terrible new threat had appeared. The Bucks were no longer an easy win, with a coast or even a night off for their starting center.... now they had to plan their road trips with a nightmare in the northland

[ShaqAttack3234]

What if we separate peaks into offense and defense. Who would be everyone's top 5 on each side of the ball?

Interesting. For offense, I'd probably go with '90 or '91 MJ, '86 Bird, '90 Magic, '77 Kareem and '00 Shaq in no order.

For defense, I'd have to start with '64 Russell first, and then in no order, players such as '93 or '94 Hakeem, Nate Thurmond(not sure what was his best year defensively), '67 or '72 Wilt, '92 Robinson, '08 KG, '94 Mutombo, '03 or '04 Ben Wallace and '03 Duncan come to mind.

Needless to say, this is a category that will be dominated by big men.


If you study the books you will consistently find that the greatest NBA players have their "best" season in year 3 to 5. I mean individually here, where that glowing, incandescent fiery game fully appears!

I've looked into this extensively, and this is not true.


Chamberlain: 1962

1967. 8th season, 30 years old


Jabbar: 1971

'77. 8th season, 29 years old


Barkley: 1988

Not 100% sure which season was his peak, but it wasn't 1988. He was better the following year in '89, as well as '90, '91 and '93.


Pippen: 1992

1994. 7th season, 28 years old.


Russell: perhaps 1960 or 61

As far as numbers, it'd be '62 when he was in his 6th season and 28 years old. However, Russell himself called '64 his best season, and many consider it to be 1965.


Jordan: '87

I have no idea where you got this from. This is nowhere in the discussion for Jordan's best. He was noticeably better the next season, better than that in '89, better than that in '90, and clearly better from '90-'93 than he ever was in the 80's. MJ peaked in '91 at 28 years old in his 7th season.


Worthy: '86 or '87

Definitely not '86. '87 was probably the start of his prime, but he was likely at his best from '88-'90.


Shaq: '95

:wtf: This was only his 5th best season. He was better during every year of the 3peat and better in '98. Shaq CLEARLY peaked in 2000 when he was 28th and in his 8th season.


Lebron: '06 or '07

What? '07 was easily Lebron's worst season from '06-'present, and '06 is his second worst during that time. This is the best I've seen Lebron and he was 28 and in his 10th season.

Most players peak around 27-28, which usually isn't in year 3-5. Certainly not year 3. Players who peak that early are unusual.


I think possibly you're understating Jabbar in his Bucks days. That man was an incredible power in the league, coaches were up nights doing all their sums again because a terrible new threat had appeared. The Bucks were no longer an easy win, with a coast or even a night off for their starting center.... now they had to plan their road trips with a nightmare in the northland

I'm not underestimating his early years at all. He arguably had the greatest rookie season ever, and I acknowledged his greatness from the start in my previous post. I just think he was even better for reasons stated earlier.

[La Frescobaldi]

Interesting. For offense, I'd probably go with '90 or '91 MJ, '86 Bird, '90 Magic, '77 Kareem and '00 Shaq in no order.

For defense, I'd have to start with '64 Russell first, and then in no order, players such as '93 or '94 Hakeem, Nate Thurmond(not sure what was his best year defensively), '67 or '72 Wilt, '92 Robinson, '08 KG, '94 Mutombo, '03 or '04 Ben Wallace and '03 Duncan come to mind.

Needless to say, this is a category that will be dominated by big men.



I've looked into this extensively, and this is not true.



1967. 8th season, 30 years old



'77. 8th season, 29 years old



Not 100% sure which season was his peak, but it wasn't 1988. He was better the following year in '89, as well as '90, '91 and '93.



1994. 7th season, 28 years old.



As far as numbers, it'd be '62 when he was in his 6th season and 28 years old. However, Russell himself called '64 his best season, and many consider it to be 1965.



I have no idea where you got this from. This is nowhere in the discussion for Jordan's best. He was noticeably better the next season, better than that in '89, better than that in '90, and clearly better from '90-'93 than he ever was in the 80's. MJ peaked in '91 at 28 years old in his 7th season.



Definitely not '86. '87 was probably the start of his prime, but he was likely at his best from '88-'90.



:wtf: This was only his 5th best season. He was better during every year of the 3peat and better in '98. Shaq CLEARLY peaked in 2000 when he was 28th and in his 8th season.



What? '07 was easily Lebron's worst season from '06-'present, and '06 is his second worst during that time. This is the best I've seen Lebron and he was 28 and in his 10th season.

Most players peak around 27-28, which usually isn't in year 3-5. Certainly not year 3. Players who peak that early are unusual.



I'm not underestimating his early years at all. He arguably had the greatest rookie season ever, and I acknowledged his greatness from the start in my previous post. I just think he was even better for reasons stated earlier.
You missed my point - because I wasn't clear enough.... and I agree with you in terms of their successes.
I meant their best individual seasons - statistically. Those were the years when they most dominated the league as an individual player.
BTW ~ I've always thought Wilt's best single season was '68, not '67... even though he won no ring that year.
Your posts as always are amazing & I always read em !!

[PHILA]

Barkley
He was dominant in the 1990 playoffs. If you round up he averaged 25/16/4 on 54% FG, including nearly 7 offensive boards per game. Though he only hit 60% from the foul line. His rebounding especially is amazing considering the Sixers playoff pace was 93.2, which just about the same as the average NBA pace of the past 7 seasons.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You missed my point - because I wasn't clear enough.... and I agree with you in terms of their successes.
I meant their best individual seasons - statistically. Those were the years when they most dominated the league as an individual player.

Well, individually doesn't necessarily mean statistically, but forgetting that for a moment, some of the seasons you listed weren't even these players best statistically. For example, Shaq's numbers were better across the board in '00 and '01 than '95, MJ's numbers were better from '88-'90 than they were in '87, same thing with Lebron, he put up better numbers more recently than he did in '06 and especially '07.


BTW ~ I've always thought Wilt's best single season was '68, not '67... even though he won no ring that year.

Honestly, I can't see much of a case for '68 Wilt over '67 Wilt.

[LA Lakers]

I'd actually say Jordan peaked a year or two later after his Barcelona run. But apples and oranges with Mike. Shaq peak in 2000 had to rank up there with mid 60's Wilt, early 70's Kareem.
Has Lebron actually peaked yet? Scary to think about.

[KG215]

I'd actually say Jordan peaked a year or two later after his Barcelona run. But apples and oranges with Mike. Shaq peak in 2000 had to rank up there with mid 60's Wilt, early 70's Kareem.
Has Lebron actually peaked yet? Scary to think about.
I think with LeBron we're at a point where he's pretty much peaked. Not saying he won't be as good or even better in the next few seasons, but I think in terms of actual floor game, head game, intangibles, and feel for the game we won't see a much better version of LeBron than the one we've seen the last two seasons. He's right at that age (29 in December) where players generally peak, and then plateau for a few more seasons, before they start to slowly dwindle.

With that said, he could be similar to Jordan in that, even 3-5 years from now, he's still the best or second best player, but still not quite as good as he was form 2009-2013 -- in Jordan's case he wasn't quite as good from 1995-1998 as he was from 1989-1993.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well, individually doesn't necessarily mean statistically, but forgetting that for a moment, some of the seasons you listed weren't even these players best statistically. For example, Shaq's numbers were better across the board in '00 and '01 than '95, MJ's numbers were better from '88-'90 than they were in '87, same thing with Lebron, he put up better numbers more recently than he did in '06 and especially '07.



Honestly, I can't see much of a case for '68 Wilt over '67 Wilt.
That's because you didn't see him in '68.

[Round Mound]

[B]86 Bird
87 Magic
91 MJ
93 Barkley (although 90 was even better)
94 Hakeem
00 SHaq


Karl Malone

[WillC]

If Barkley's 1990 season was even better, why did you list 1993?

[Round Mound]

If Barkley's 1990 season was even better, why did you list 1993?

[B]Cause he had more success. People here on ISH only credit someone with a ring, so that

[plowking]

From what I've seen and read about in no particular order...

67 Wilt
00 Shaq
13 Lebron
91 Jordan
86 Bird

After those I'd put Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, etc.

[Round Mound]

From what I've seen and read about in no particular order...

67 Wilt
00 Shaq
13 Lebron
91 Jordan
86 Bird

After those I'd put Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, etc.

No 87 Magic?

[plowking]

No 87 Magic?

Magic probably has the worst peak out of all the players I have in my top 10. He was a great player, he just wasn't as great as some make him out to be. Played with a great team, was in a fortunate position, and won titles. Can't fault him for much, but he wasn't as individually great as certain other players.

[Round Mound]

Magic probably has the worst peak out of all the players I have in my top 10. He was a great player, he just wasn't as great as some make him out to be. Played with a great team, was in a fortunate position, and won titles. Can't fault him for much, but he wasn't as individually great as certain other players.

[B]I Think You are Underrating Magic a Bit. Magic May Have Not Been The Offensive Thread These Dudes Mentioned Before Where But His All Around Game, Team Game, Clutchness and Abilities To Maker Others Greater...Can Never Be Forgotten.

Magic

[plowking]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]I Think You are Underrating Magic a Bit. Magic May Have Not Been The Offensive Thread These Dudes Mentioned Before Where But His All Around Game, Team Game, Clutchness and Abilities To Maker Others Greater...Can Never Be Forgotten.

Magic

[WillC]

From what I've seen and read about in no particular order...

67 Wilt
00 Shaq
13 Lebron
91 Jordan
86 Bird

After those I'd put Kareem, Duncan, Hakeem, etc.

Same top 5 as me.

Magic Johnson's 87 season definitely deserves an honorable mention though.

[Owl]

Although Wilt's 1961-62 regular season statistics were mind blowing, there are some things to bear in mind:

- His team (Philadelphia Warriors) 'only' had the 3rd best record in the NBA that season

- The Celtics beat the Warriors in the Eastern Conference Finals (although it did take 7 games)

- Wilt hadn't yet learned to play team ball. Most historians agree that he reached his true peak in 1966-67, when his 76ers team bulldozed their way through the NBA, even defeating Russell's Celtics in the playoffs. That was the year that Wilt embraced team basketball

- Wilt was far better in the 1966-67 playoffs than in 1961-62.

It's a bit like Kobe Bryant in 2005-06, when he averaged over 35ppg. On paper that seems remarkable, but then you consider that the Lakers only won 45 games and got knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs. Suddenly it wasn't so great after all.
Devil's advocate counterpoints

-His team was the 2nd best team. Philly's SRS was better than LA's.

-Put Wilt's teammates versus Bill's and you'll see what an achievement it was to go 7 games with that Celtics team.

Heinsohn v Arizin (33, last year in NBA)
Cousy (33, but still 2nd team All NBA) v Rodgers
Sam Jones v Gola
Ramsay, Sanders and Jones vs Meschery, Attles and ?

There's no matchup there where I wouldn't take Boston's guy over Philly's.

- Is there a "historian's" consensus that Wilt peaked in '67. I think people on the web (admittedly smart people) seem to prefer '67 Wilt. I don't know that chroniclers have said that. I'm not saying they haven't but I don't know that they have either.

As for "learning" to play team ball, the argument has been put that Wilt simply played in the style asked of him by his coaches. Coach McGuire felt their team's best chance was him going out and getting 50. Much as Doug Collins allowed MJ to go for 37ppg in '87. It may not have been optimal but then again it might have been.

-Wilt played 7 of his 12 playoff games in '62 against Russell, a sure way to depress his numbers (albeit he played Russell in 5 in '67 and then Thurmond in the finals for 6). In any case 35-26.6 a solid ts% (Wilt relatively efficient from the line at that time) is hardly dissapointing. The advanced metrics seem to like it.

Edit/addendum:
Whilst Kobe's '06 season was, statisically at the very least, his strongest and comparable in circumstance to the above Wilt and MJ seasons (as with the above, Kobe going off might well have the best option) and truly great season by normal standards it was neither Wilt-esque in it's uniqueness/dominance (T-Mac had a comparable, probably better season in '03) nor so by advanced-metrics.

[LAZERUSS]

Devil's advocate counterpoints

-His team was the 2nd best team. Philly's SRS was better than LA's.

-Put Wilt's teammates versus Bill's and you'll see what an achievement it was to go 7 games with that Celtics team.

Heinsohn v Arizin (33, last year in NBA)
Cousy (33, but still 2nd team All NBA) v Rodgers
Sam Jones v Gola
Ramsay, Sanders and Jones vs Meschery, Attles and ?

There's no matchup there where I wouldn't take Boston's guy over Philly's.

- Is there a "historian's" consensus that Wilt peaked in '67. I think people on the web (admittedly smart people) seem to prefer '67 Wilt. I don't know that chroniclers have said that. I'm not saying they haven't but I don't know that they have either.

As for "learning" to play team ball, the argument has been put that Wilt simply played in the style asked of him by his coaches. Coach McGuire felt their team's best chance was him going out and getting 50. Much as Doug Collins allowed MJ to go for 37ppg in '87. It may not have been optimal but then again it might have been.

-Wilt played 7 of his 12 playoff games in '62 against Russell, a sure way to depress his numbers (albeit he played Russell in 5 in '67 and then Thurmond in the finals for 6). In any case 35-26.6 a solid ts% (Wilt relatively efficient from the line at that time) is hardly dissapointing. The advanced metrics seem to like it.

Edit/addendum:
Whilst Kobe's '06 season was, statisically at the very least, his strongest and comparable in circumstance to the above Wilt and MJ seasons (as with the above, Kobe going off might well have the best option) and truly great season by normal standards it was neither Wilt-esque in it's uniqueness/dominance (T-Mac had a comparable, probably better season in '03) nor so by advanced-metrics.

Damn, this was a great post.

:applause:

I find it fascinating that so many people somehow believe that Wilt became a "team player" in his 66-67 season...when there are articles claiming that he was doing so as far back as his 63-64 season...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/1/index.htm


A strange thing happened at a National Basketball Association game in St. Louis early this season. The ball was thrown to the San Francisco Warriors' 7-foot-1[1/16]-inch 290-pound center, Wilt Chamberlain, who was positioned near the St. Louis Hawks' basket, and Chamberlain threw the ball right back out to one of his teammates. This maneuver so unsettled Ed Macauley, a former NBA center and a spectator at the game, that he nearly choked. "Chamberlain threw the ball out," he said, loosening his tie. "He actually threw the ball out!" If Macauley was surprised, so were the Hawks, who stood around in a state of deep shock while one of Chamberlain's teammates, cutting toward the basket, made the layup unmolested.

To understand the loss of composure by Macauley and the Hawks, you must remember that in previous seasons when the ball got to Chamberlain the rest of the Warriors would react as if they were watching a spectacular Pacific sunset. They would be open-mouthed and motionless, because Wilt Chamberlain leads the world in taking shots. But so often did the ball fly back out to a moving teammate that night that Chamberlain scored only 22 points, exactly 22.8 points less than he scored per game last year, and 28.4 less than the year before, when the big center averaged a phenomenal 50.4 points.

All this does not mean that Chamberlain is slipping. A year ago the San Francisco fan, paying his money to see Wilt play, got his 50 points' worth all right, but he still felt like someone who bought a Rolls-Royce only to discover that the horn didn't work. San Francisco fans had every right to expect perfection from such a specimen, but they not only did not get perfection, they did not get to see the Warriors win very often, and no citizen of San Francisco is going to stand for that very long. Eventually they began to leave the Warriors alone in alarming numbers, except when the champion Celtics would come to town, and then they came to root for Boston.

But that was last year. This season there is a new Wilt. The Warriors won their early game with the Hawks, mostly because Chamberlain was doing workaday things. He passed to his no-longer stationary teammates when they were clear, he raced back downcourt in order to block shots when St. Louis got the ball, and he gathered up rebounds on both backboards. Furthermore, Chamberlain has been playing this way for four months now. He is, to be precise, scoring less and having the time of his life.

So are the Warriors, a team that lists on its roster some of the slowest players and worst shooters ever to play in the NBA. With just 14 games remaining in the regular season, San Francisco—in next-to-last place this time last year and until recently the obvious choice to finish there again—is in first place, ahead of the St. Louis Hawks and the defending Western Division champions, the Los Angeles Lakers. There is a related phenomenon: the curious fans of early last year are back, along with quite a few brand-new ones. When they press the horn now they get a sturdy, melodious toot for their money.



Continuing...


"O.K.," said Hannum. "You got yourself a coach."

San Francisco had a coach, but what Hannum got was no bargain. The team had the morale of a bunch of recruits immediately after their first G.I. haircuts. Says Hannum, "I realized how completely inadequate the team had become. They had learned to depend on Wilt so completely they were even incapable of beating a squad of rookies. I had to convince them that they, too, had responsibilities."

Hannum demanded that the Warriors play all-out the entire time they were in a practice game, running constantly and finally cutting toward the basket or to an uncluttered spot for a jump shot. When a player began to bleed from the eyes, Hannum would send in a substitute. But the trouble was, these players had no stomach for continuous motion because they knew that if Chamberlain got the ball they would never see it again.

Hannum's next task, then, was to convince Wilt Chamberlain—the greatest scorer in history, the man who once scored 100 points in a single game, the man who holds eight of the 10 major scoring records—to let someone else shoot once in a while and to play defense with as much enthusiasm as he did offense. "For us to win," said Hannum, "Wilt has to play like Bill Russell at one end of the court and like Wilt Chamberlain at the other end of the court."

There were experts who were sure Hannum did not have a chance. "Chamberlain," said one eastern sportswriter, "is a loser. Has been all his life. Neither his college nor his pro team has ever won a title, because he won't take coaching. All he wants to do is score points." Alex Hannum, however, insists he had no trouble at all getting Chamberlain to play it his way. Whether he did or not, he obviously persuaded Wilt. And to a man, the Warriors were willing to give Hannum's battle plan a try. "What could we lose?" says Forward Tom Meschery. "Our shirts? We'd already lost those."

Chamberlain, of course, had quite a bit more than his shirt to lose, having parlayed his scoring talents into a $70,000-a-year job that enables him to drive a Bentley and to maintain apartments in San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York. He says now, "I don't care about points or my salary. All I care about is winning the NBA championship."

For those who insist that all this is just so much talk, there was a game in Philadelphia last month in which the Warriors came on the floor at half time trailing the 76ers by 15 points. In the next three minutes Chamberlain blocked four shots, picked up seven defensive and three offensive rebounds and was the playmaker, controlling the ball in one gigantic hand until a teammate was clear for a shot. Finally Hannum had to call a time-out so that his big center could stop laughing. The Warriors had outscored the 76ers 20-3, and Wilt's contribution was four points. Said Hannum, "He didn't exactly look like a man who was disappointed."

With Chamberlain now doing what everyone expected of him all along, San Francisco fans are coming back. They like him and his perpetual-motion supporting cast, and they like winning. About the only people not happy are the Warriors' opponents. The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.



Continued....

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

I also find it interesting that Chamberlain was considered a "loser" as far back as before that season, despite the fact that he had single-handedly carried putrid rosters to within an eyelash of beating the great Celtic Dynasty, and with his inept supporting cast playing even worse.

BTW, in Wilt's 65-66 season, it is seldom mentioned that, while he led the league in ppg at 33.5 ppg, and rebounds, at 24.6 rpg, and FG% (a record at the time) of .540 (in a league that shot .433)...and also led them to the best record in the league...he did so while handing out 5.2 apg. Clearly he was a TEAM player long before 66-67.

Anyway...the facts were...Chamberlain did whatever his COACH's asked of him. Whether it be McGuire just flat out telling him, and his teammates, that it will be Wilt taking the bulk of the shots, or Hannum telling him to get his teammates involved, or later on Sharman telling him to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and outlets.

Thank god we have so much research available to us today...so that we can refute these complete myths that had been perpetuated for so long.

Maybe Bill Simmons will actually take the time to do some research in his next book...

[Nash]

The whole year people talk about Lebron's historic 13 season. Then a few months go by and ISH goes back to retard mode.

27 points, 8 rebounds and 7 assists on 56.5% for a perimeter player(with championsip, MVP, FMVP and 2nd in DPOY) deserves more than some Lebron haters on ISH being surprised why people rate him highly.

[riseagainst]

You sacrifice natural play, and at times winning play trying to fit a statistical box. I believe it was Collins that also told the scorekeepers to stop telling him at one point because it was impacting the games at times in a negative way with his play.

the irony. :oldlol:
Can't wait till Lebron leaves Miami in 2014 so your sorry a$$ can hate on him again. Would be a sight to see.

:roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's because you didn't see him in '68.

Ok, so tell me, what makes Wilt's '68 better than '67? And please don't tell me because he led the league in assists.

Given the fact that he was consciously trying to lead the league in assists and in the process, apparently passing up some shots he should have taken, I'd take '67. It seems he was much more focused on the important thing, a championship from start to finish. Especially since he finished the job in those playoffs, including the aforementioned dominance of the Celtics while in '68, despite the injuries, Wilt also deserves blame in blowing the 3-1 lead, particularly for a disastrous game 6 in which he scored just 20 points on 6/21 FG and 8/23 FT while Russell outrebounded him 31-27, though Wayne Embry also played a hand in battling Wilt on the boards.

[fpliii]

Ok, so tell me, what makes Wilt's '68 better than '67? And please don't tell me because he led the league in assists.

Given the fact that he was consciously trying to lead the league in assists and in the process, apparently passing up some shots he should have taken, I'd take '67. It seems he was much more focused on the important thing, a championship from start to finish. Especially since he finished the job in those playoffs, including the aforementioned dominance of the Celtics while in '68, despite the injuries, Wilt also deserves blame in blowing the 3-1 lead, particularly for a disastrous game 6 in which he scored just 20 points on 6/21 FG and 8/23 FT while Russell outrebounded him 31-27, though Wayne Embry also played a hand in battling Wilt on the boards.

The Sixers defense also was better that season (and in 66) than it was in 67 (if DPOY exists Wilt wins those three seasons, plus 72, 73). I'd still go with 67 due to the scoring, rebounding, playoff edge (knocking off the 8x defending champs while averaging something like a quad double is unprecedented) though. I think 68 was his third best season (after 67, 64) but that's just me (and I didn't watch him live).

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Cause he had more success. People here on ISH only credit someone with a ring, so that

[Owl]

Eh, I'd say stick to your pick. If you think 1990 was Chuck at his best, stand by that choice and explain your reasoning if someone disagrees.

A valid choice can certainly be made for 1990 as Barkley's peak. Chuck clearly had a better team in '93 than he had in '90 so it's not so clear cut that more success=better in this case.



Stats(at least in the regular season) are similar

1967- 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, 68.3 FG%, 44.1 FT%, 45.5 mpg
1968- 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, 59.5 FG%, 38.0 FT%, 46.8 mpg

I guess pretty similar, except with a 68-13 record in '67 vs 62-20 in '68.

But the difference in how his playoffs went alone as well as his focus and leadership in '67 vs his stat-influenced play in '68 makes it a clear choice for me, even if I'm unsure the latter ended up mattering much.
You would think either
a) if he did consciously gun for an assists title
or
b) it had any real effect on his game
he his apg would have gone up by more than .8 and he would have won the assists title decisively i.e. at least not the fortune of Oscar Robertson missing 17 games, whilst accruing 1.2 assists less per game than Robertson at 9.74 (and that total was lower than the past 6 years when the leader, Robertson or Guy Rodgers, were getting double figures which surely any deliberate attempt to lead the league would have to target).

In any case its hard to see an argument for '68 that overcomes Wilt's near 10% fg% drop.

[fpliii]

Stats(at least in the regular season) are similar

1967- 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, 68.3 FG%, 44.1 FT%, 45.5 mpg
1968- 24.3 ppg, 23.8 rpg, 8.6 apg, 59.5 FG%, 38.0 FT%, 46.8 mpg

I guess pretty similar, except with a 68-13 record in '67 vs 62-20 in '68.

But the difference in how his playoffs went alone as well as his focus and leadership in '67 vs his stat-influenced play in '68 makes it a clear choice for me, even if I'm unsure the latter ended up mattering much.

Oh I definitely agree. I was just saying that if you are going to make that case, the defensive improvement has to be the basis of your argument. I don't see it either.

[MavsSuperFan]

Shaq 00
MJ 86
MJ 87
MJ 88
MJ 90
MJ 91
MJ 92
MJ 93
Kobe 06

[La Frescobaldi]

Ok, so tell me, what makes Wilt's '68 better than '67? And please don't tell me because he led the league in assists.

Given the fact that he was consciously trying to lead the league in assists and in the process, apparently passing up some shots he should have taken, I'd take '67. It seems he was much more focused on the important thing, a championship from start to finish. Especially since he finished the job in those playoffs, including the aforementioned dominance of the Celtics while in '68, despite the injuries, Wilt also deserves blame in blowing the 3-1 lead, particularly for a disastrous game 6 in which he scored just 20 points on 6/21 FG and 8/23 FT while Russell outrebounded him 31-27, though Wayne Embry also played a hand in battling Wilt on the boards.

You're talking about the playoffs. The Sixers exploded with injuries that season; they lost Larry Costello during the regular season - ruptured Achilles tendon. Billy Cunningham broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs against the Knicks. Hal Greer, Luke Jackson, Chet Walker were hamstrung & a couple guys were down with the flu. Chamberlain himself had a deep thigh bruise and a calf tear and should not have been playing.
Dude you just can't be serious about the playoffs. Except for Costello, THOSE INJURIES HAPPENED DURING THE PLAYOFFS. The Sixers that year were like a sleek sports car, like a cool Lamberghini that came flashing into view....... and you couldn't look away while it smashed into a brick wall. Injuries destroyed that squad and it was terrible to watch it unfold.

Nobody who watched the '68 playoffs thought the Sixers were going to win with all those injuries. Nobody. You might as well blame the wind as blame Chamberlain for that playoff result.

But what I'm talking about is Chamberlain's unearthly domination on the court that season. As great as he was in '67 - he was BETTER in '68.

Under Alex Hannum's amazing tutelage, Wilt's game had become absolutely complete. It was statuesque at times... unearthly. His passes were razors, he still had blazing track speed, and his defense was the best of anyone in the League, better than Russell, better than Willis, better than Thurmond.
He blocked a shot so hard he sent Oscar Robertson crashing into the bleachers - and Oscar was powerful strong. A friend of mine kept a picture for years of Wilt shooting his turnaround fadeaway and he claimed it was his 12th make in a row. He would block 4, 5, 6 shots in a row; it just didn't matter what you did, it wasn't going in. Walt Bellamy just would not face him one game in the Garden. He stood at the bench and argued with Red Holzman and finally he just sat down. Willis had to play Wilt on a bum leg and the Knicks got crushed.
He shot a jump ball in the basket from the free throw line and did the crowd roar? But the memories of an old geezer pale when you look at this.... look at what he was doing:

Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 10/21/1967 (1967-68) 17 22 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Baltimore 11/01/1967 (1967-68) 19 22 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia L.A.Lakers 11/11/1967 (1967-68) 16 28 12
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Baltimore 12/09/1967 (1967-68) 15 24 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Cincinnati 12/26/1967 (1967-68) 20 26 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia St.Louis 01/06/1968 (1967-68) 26 23 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 01/13/1968 (1967-68) 27 20 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 01/25/1968 (1967-68) 14 11 14
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Cincinnati 01/26/1968 (1967-68) 22 22 12
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Boston 01/28/1968 (1967-68) 19 24 11
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Boston 01/30/1968 (1967-68) 23 29 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 02/02/1968 (1967-68) 22 25 21
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia San Francisco 02/04/1968 (1967-68) 19 27 16
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia San Diego 02/07/1968 (1967-68) 21 21 14
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Chicago 02/09/1968 (1967-68) 20 17 11
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia St.Louis 02/11/1968 (1967-68) 21 26 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia San Francisco 02/13/1968 (1967-68) 16 25 14
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Seattle 02/14/1968 (1967-68) 35 24 15
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia San Diego 02/16/1968 (1967-68) 20 19 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 02/23/1968 (1967-68) 31 32 12
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia San Diego 03/05/1968 (1967-68) 31 21 15
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Cincinnati 03/06/1968 (1967-68) 22 19 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Boston 03/08/1968 (1967-68) 13 24 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia New York 03/10/1968 (1967-68) 28 27 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Chicago 03/12/1968 (1967-68) 22 30 12
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia New York 03/13/1968 (1967-68) 16 20 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Baltimore 03/15/1968 (1967-68) 25 21 13
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Chicago 03/16/1968 (1967-68) 35 15 10
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia L.A.Lakers 03/18/1968 (1967-68) 53 32 14
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Cincinnati 03/19/1968 (1967-68) # 22 27 19
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Baltimore 03/20/1968 (1967-68) 26 17 12

Including 9 Triple Doubles in a row to polish off the season.
Many of those games were quadruple doubles if blocks had been tallied in those days. He just showed overwhelming dominance over everyone. It got so bad the guys went home from games saying John Havlicek was intimidated. It was unheard of.... just astounding. Hondo is probably the most fearless player I ever saw. One of them, anyhow.

Look at that stat line against the Pistons again.
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Detroit 02/02/1968 22 25 21

Chamberlain said he had 12 blocks in that game & I thoroughly believe it; probably the greatest performance in NBA history. That whole season was filled with those kinds of games.

Wilt took '67 and raised the stakes even higher.... but that Sixers team broke into pieces

[ShaqAttack3234]

You're talking about the playoffs. The Sixers exploded with injuries that season; they lost Larry Costello during the regular season - ruptured Achilles tendon. Billy Cunningham broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs against the Knicks. Hal Greer, Luke Jackson, Chet Walker were hamstrung & a couple guys were down with the flu. Chamberlain himself had a deep thigh bruise and a calf tear and should not have been playing.
Dude you just can't be serious about the playoffs. Except for Costello, THOSE INJURIES HAPPENED DURING THE PLAYOFFS. The Sixers that year were like a sleek sports car, like a cool Lamberghini that came flashing into view....... and you couldn't look away while it smashed into a brick wall. Injuries destroyed that squad and it was terrible to watch it unfold.

Nobody who watched the '68 playoffs thought the Sixers were going to win with all those injuries. Nobody. You might as well blame the wind as blame Chamberlain for that playoff result.

I'm blaming Wilt for his PERFORMANCE. I know that team had injuries, but that doesn't excuse a player of his caliber going out and having a game 6 of 20 points on 6/21 shooting AND 8/23 from the line while Hal Greer went pout and dropped 40.


But what I'm talking about is Chamberlain's unearthly domination on the court that season. As great as he was in '67 - he was BETTER in '68.

Under Alex Hannum's amazing tutelage, Wilt's game had become absolutely complete. It was statuesque at times... unearthly. His passes were razors, he still had blazing track speed, and his defense was the best of anyone in the League, better than Russell, better than Willis, better than Thurmond.
He blocked a shot so hard he sent Oscar Robertson crashing into the bleachers - and Oscar was powerful strong. A friend of mine kept a picture for years of Wilt shooting his turnaround fadeaway and he claimed it was his 12th make in a row. He would block 4, 5, 6 shots in a row; it just didn't matter what you did, it wasn't going in. Walt Bellamy just would not face him one game in the Garden. He stood at the bench and argued with Red Holzman and finally he just sat down. Willis had to play Wilt on a bum leg and the Knicks got crushed.
He shot a jump ball in the basket from the free throw line and did the crowd roar? But the memories of an old geezer pale when you look at this.... look at what he was doing:

Was Wilt not dominating defensively in '67? From everything I've heard and read, he was. And despite a lack of footage, I've seen a little of this defensive dominance in the limited footage available. Was he not a complete player in '67? Didn't their offense revolve around Wilt's passing in the post? Wasn't he finishing strong around the rim?


He shot a jump ball in the basket from the free throw line and did the crowd roar? But the memories of an old geezer pale when you look at this.... look at what he was doing:

As I said, I'm not particularly interested in stats. His stats were great both years, however, the added assist numbers are really meaningless when you consider it's well documented that he set out to lead the league in assists.

His regular seasons were obviously great both years, but '68 is a tough sell when he finished the job and dominated the '67 playoffs while '68 was another disappointment.

As far as those dominant, quadruple double type games, he was having those in 1967 as well. Look at game 1 of the EDF vs Boston. 24 points, 32 rebounds, 12 assists and 12 blocks. Or game 5 to close out that series. 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists and 7 blocks.

Edit: I don't mean to be disrespectful to your opinion. If you did see Wilt both seasons, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and more qualified than most on this board, including myself to answer.

However, that's not going to convince me, especially having heard how Wilt and his peers speak about his '67 season. Wilt himself called it his best season. And I can't see anything convincing me Wilt doesn't deserve significant blame for his performance in the '68 series vs Boston.

[Solefade]

from June 2012-June 2013 2 MVPs, 2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 2nd in DPOY, Gold medal, only player to have 6 straight games of 30/5/5 over 60%, 27 game win streak

^this is arguably the best year of basketball over any player in the history in of the NBA in terms of accomplishments/stats.

[Solefade]

I think with LeBron we're at a point where he's pretty much peaked. Not saying he won't be as good or even better in the next few seasons, but I think in terms of actual floor game, head game, intangibles, and feel for the game we won't see a much better version of LeBron than the one we've seen the last two seasons. He's right at that age (29 in December) where players generally peak, and then plateau for a few more seasons, before they start to slowly dwindle.

With that said, he could be similar to Jordan in that, even 3-5 years from now, he's still the best or second best player, but still not quite as good as he was form 2009-2013 -- in Jordan's case he wasn't quite as good from 1995-1998 as he was from 1989-1993.


We keep saying this but he has continued to get better every single year since he's been in the NBA. I have no reason to believe this otherwise until he shows that he's stopped progressing.

[Odinn]

from June 2012-June 2013 2 MVPs, 2 Rings, 2 FMVPs, 2nd in DPOY, Gold medal, only player to have 6 straight games of 30/5/5 over 60%, 27 game win streak

^this is arguably the best year of basketball over any player in the history in of the NBA in terms of accomplishments/stats.
Idiot.

Here you go folks.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=287571

[KG215]

We keep saying this but he has continued to get better every single year since he's been in the NBA. I have no reason to believe this otherwise until he shows that he's stopped progressing.
Re-read my post, carefully, then get back to me. I didn't say there's no chance he won't be better, I just said getting to that age where great players start to plateau, and the improvements are minimal, or you add something else to your game to make up for other things that start to go the closer you get to 30.

[Sharmer]

T mac had a top ten peak. Maybe.

[La Frescobaldi]

I'm blaming Wilt for his PERFORMANCE. I know that team had injuries, but that doesn't excuse a player of his caliber going out and having a game 6 of 20 points on 6/21 shooting AND 8/23 from the line while Hal Greer went pout and dropped 40.

Was Wilt not dominating defensively in '67? From everything I've heard and read, he was. And despite a lack of footage, I've seen a little of this defensive dominance in the limited footage available. Was he not a complete player in '67? Didn't their offense revolve around Wilt's passing in the post? Wasn't he finishing strong around the rim?

As I said, I'm not particularly interested in stats. His stats were great both years, however, the added assist numbers are really meaningless when you consider it's well documented that he set out to lead the league in assists.

His regular seasons were obviously great both years, but '68 is a tough sell when he finished the job and dominated the '67 playoffs while '68 was another disappointment.

As far as those dominant, quadruple double type games, he was having those in 1967 as well. Look at game 1 of the EDF vs Boston. 24 points, 32 rebounds, 12 assists and 12 blocks. Or game 5 to close out that series. 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists and 7 blocks.

Edit: I don't mean to be disrespectful to your opinion. If you did see Wilt both seasons, you're certainly entitled to your opinion and more qualified than most on this board, including myself to answer.

However, that's not going to convince me, especially having heard how Wilt and his peers speak about his '67 season. Wilt himself called it his best season. And I can't see anything convincing me Wilt doesn't deserve significant blame for his performance in the '68 series vs Boston.

Dude on this board full of trolls you say that edit? LMAO you ain't disrespectful in the least. Your posts are masterly, right at the top of this board. And anyhow if you don't challenge guys point of view, you ain't puttin in work, you're just talkin'.

I can only remember Wilt limping a few times. He was like Iron Man, he really was. I mean those MPG show what he was about. He limped in '69 when his knee blew out in the Finals, and he limped a lot in '70.... many of my friends thought he should not have gone back in even if it was for the playoffs, & although he did a dynamite job... he did limp along considerable. But other than that..... real seldom. Real seldom.
He was limping in '68.

It's a hard thing to talk about guys like Wilt, or early days Kareem in terms of the modern hoops fan, because the game has changed so much, and the perception has changed more still. Magic & Barkley & Jordan changed the game so much - not just in scoring, but in strategy, how the ball moves, where it goes... the 3 line also has made a huge impact.
In some respects centers are the ultimate black hole - if the ball goes down low they are supposed to finish. But centers back then had to deal with the same factor that they do today; if they don't get the ball, they can't produce. It's well known about that '68 EDF that the ball just did not go in to Chamberlain. He wasn't getting touches, and it cost the Sixers immensely. I've never said a bad word about Hannum - to me he's one of the most underrated coaches in NBA history - but a lot of guys did at the time. They felt like he changed the teams' winning strategy in the playoffs. With all those injuries, I really doubt he had much choice. Yes Hal Greer ripped off enormous numbers....... but that in itself was a real bad sign, a sign of desperation because the team just had gone into the hospital.

Some key factors in that series? One famous one was how Russell didn't line up on Wilt. Chet the Jet got real hot.... so Russell sent Wayne Embry in and took over guarding Walker himself. Well Russ was Mr. Shut Down on everybody and Chet duly got shut down. Russell always knew when the big runs were coming on, he knew when the other team was making its attack. But with the guards limping - and I mean sometimes hopping down the court grimacing in pain - Chamberlain just was not getting the ball.
Another factor was those assists were still going out to the Gs and Fs..... but they were just missing shots they'd made all season. Hard to adjust to shooting on one leg, or with one arm.
The other real factor that series, of course...... was Hondo. He lined up at guard almost the whole playoffs and he laid the wood to it in a big way. He ran about 25 10 and 6 through the playoffs and it was mainly outside the paint. Havlicek would have been playoffs MVP by just about any measure, in '68, just like he should by all rights, based on any other season, have gotten the first FMVP the next year.

But, of course, the championship colors perceptions always, and if Wilt was better in '67 in everybody's mind but mine....... that's okay too.

[LAZERUSS]

I still see that Wilt gets the blame for the SIXERS 3-1 collapse in the '68 EDF's. In a series in which he was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three on. In a series in which even Russell claimed, "A lessor man would not have played." And we all know what he really meant...NO ONE else would have played...much less put up a 22-25 series. We KNOW that Kareem would have went home with the assortment of injuries that Wilt had. And we KNOW that Willis Reed either would not have played, or would not have contributed anything at all, had he played.

And as La Frescobaldi pointed out...the Sixer team that just blew the league away during the regular season, was nowhere near the crippled shell that was playing in the EDF's.

And while Greer had ONE great game in that series, he was simply AWFUL in the clinching game seven loss (as, unfortunately for Wilt, Greer was so often in their 3 1/2 post-seasons together.)

La Frescobaldi also correctly pointed out the fact that Wilt did not get the damn ball in game seven. NINE touches in the entire second half, and only TWO in the 4th quarter (and those came on offensive rebounds)...in a season in which it was estimated that Wilt was averaging about 15 touches per QUARTER.

But, yes, let's once again blame Wilt.

[1987_Lakers]

in no particular order

2000 Shaq
1991 MJ
1967 Wilt
2013 LeBron
1986 Bird

[La Frescobaldi]

in no particular order

2000 Shaq
1991 MJ
1967 Wilt
2013 LeBron
1986 Bird
I always thought Rik Smits did all that mortal man could do against Shaq that year. Shoot when Shaq fouled out that one game I thought Smits was just gonna take over and pull that one out, those spins and counters that he put on display against Salley were amazing..... but Kobe was indomitable.
But oh yeah.... O'Neal was Most Monstrous!! Even when he had fouled out with minutes left, he had like 35 points and 21 rebounds....... amazing

[305Baller]

70s Jabbar over Hakeem

[LAZERUSS]

70s Jabbar over Hakeem

Hell, 80's Kareem over Hakeem.

[LAZERUSS]

In any order...

'71 Kareem
'66-'68 Chamberlain
'91 MJ
'13 Lebron
'00 Shaq

then

'87 Magic
'83 Moses
'86 Bird
'95 Hakeem
'64 Russell

[Odinn]

In any order...

'71 Kareem
'66-'68 Chamberlain
'91 MJ
'13 Lebron
'00 Shaq

then

'87 Magic
'83 Moses
'86 Bird
'95 Hakeem
'64 Russell
No Duncan but '13 LeBron is top 5? Really jlauber?

[Fresh Kid]

70s Jabbar over Hakeem
I agree, I would even put 87 Jabbar over Hakeem.

[DCL]

remember shaq dunking on mutombo's face like 10 or 20 times in the finals? mutombo was a former 4-time defensive player of the year, and shaq made him look like a useless piece of cardboard. post up, catch ball, dunk.... post up, catch ball, dunk... post up, catch ball, dunk... it was pure rape.

[fpliii]

I agree, I would even put 87 Jabbar over Hakeem.

lol damn bro

[LA Lakers]

Magic peaked around '85 even though it was still Kareems team. '87 is more prominent cuz Magic had to start taking 20-25 shots a game for his team to win. Rather than just be the greatest facilitator of all time. Magic rode out his prime for 4 or 5 more seasons before developing an effective low post game ala Sir Charles. Amazing to think DJ had to try and keep him off the left block with his back to the basket and Magic is 6 foot 9 haha. Celtics thru everything they could at him. He had too many tricks up his sleeve. Magic could hit any Laker on the court with his back to the basket. Wow. Showtime at The Forum...

[ZaaaaaH]

LeBron 13 over Duncan 00-04 :facepalm

And I thought I like LeBron.

No love for Kobe?

[plowking]

LeBron 13 over Duncan 00-04 :facepalm

And I thought I like LeBron.

No love for Kobe?

Can you show me a single season as statistically, and team dominant that Duncan had as the last two Lebron seasons?

Not to mention the media hoopla, and incredible stretches of play about his play as there was for Lebron?

[ZaaaaaH]

Can you show me a single season as statistically, and team dominant that Duncan had as the last two Lebron seasons?

Not to mention the media hoopla, and incredible stretches of play about his play as there was for Lebron?


I dont need numbers to tell me who was the better basketball player since I witness both in depth. But I can guarantee you Duncans numbers, accomplishment, and impact was greater then LeBron's.

Prime Duncan in this Era would of Killed the Heat. It was sad to see Duncan playing with half a leg.

LeBron's True Peak is this coming up year. Stop overrating him so hard.

I love LeBron but I love Basketball more and No ****en way LeBrons Peak which was last year was greater then Duncans and not even Kobes.

Till LeBron becomes a lethal scorer he will never be Top 5, That simple.

[fpliii]

Well, for ElGee's project on the RealGM PC board, we've had to rate 10 players so far (Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron). I won't go into how I came up with these here, go to that board if you want to learn more. I'm not going to share my overall order yet since it's a work in progress, but here are my offensive/defensive lists (alphabetically, since it's a work in progress):

Offense:
86 Larry Bird
07 Kobe Bryant
09/13 LeBron James (tied)
87/90 Magic Johnson (tied)
90/91 Michael Jordan (tied)

Defense:
73 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
64 Wilt Chamberlain
03/05/07 Tim Duncan (tied)
00/01 Shaquille O'Neal (tied)
64 Bill Russell

I know I'm not really going out on a limb here, since bigs are on the D list, and non-bigs are on the O list, but I do think the final lists once we've evaluated more players will be quite similar. Oscar Robertson might knock somebody out of the first list, while one or more of Hakeem, Mutombo, Thurmond, Garnett, Robinson are threats to knock at least one person out of the second list. For this project I'm including rebounds in offense/defense, but I still can't put bigs in the top 5 (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq all are right behind them though). There's a huge gap between the bigs and everyone else defensively.

[LAZERUSS]

Well, for ElGee's project on the RealGM PC board, we've had to rate 10 players so far (Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron). I won't go into how I came up with these here, go to that board if you want to learn more. I'm not going to share my overall order yet since it's a work in progress, but here are my offensive/defensive lists (alphabetically, since it's a work in progress):

Offense:
86 Larry Bird
07 Kobe Bryant
09/13 LeBron James (tied)
87/90 Magic Johnson (tied)
90/91 Michael Jordan (tied)

Defense:
73 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
64 Wilt Chamberlain
03/05/07 Tim Duncan (tied)
00/01 Shaquille O'Neal (tied)
64 Bill Russell

I know I'm not really going out on a limb here, since bigs are on the D list, and non-bigs are on the O list, but I do think the final lists once we've evaluated more players will be quite similar. Oscar Robertson might knock somebody out of the first list, while one or more of Hakeem, Mutombo, Thurmond, Garnett, Robinson are threats to knock at least one person out of the second list. For this project I'm including rebounds in offense/defense, but I still can't put bigs in the top 5 (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq all are right behind them though). There's a huge gap between the bigs and everyone else defensively.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't see Kareem's 72-73 season as being even remotely close to either his 70-71 or 71-72 seasons. And, if you include post-season play, production per minute played, and defensive impact to the team...his 70-71 season has to rank in the top-5 of all-time.

I see a case for Wilt's 63-64 season for two reasons. One, he took just a horrible roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. And his post-season numbers, in a post-season that only averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting was just staggering.

Still, I would rank his 65-66 season right up there with his 66-67 season, if not higher. He just waxed the floor with Thurmond, Bellamy, and Russell in their post-season h2h's (including the post-season h2h's with Russell.) And, as I stated previously, Willis Reed was now a PF playing alongside Bellamy, but just the year before, in 64-65, Chamberlain crushed Reed in their nine h2h's. I don't think we have ever seen another season, in which a center so dominated all of his HOF peers, like Wilt did in his 65-66 and 66-67 seasons.

As for Shaq...I don't see 00-01 having any case over his 99-00 season. He was better in the regular season, and better in the post-season. The only edge that you could possibly give an 00-01 Shaq, would be in the fact that his Laker team had the most dominating post-season of all-time.

Edit. My bad. Now I see you are ranking KAJ, Wilt, and Shaq on their defensive side of the ball.

[fpliii]

Maybe I am missing something here, but I can't see Kareem's 72-73 season as being even remotely close to either his 70-71 or 71-72 seasons. And, if you include post-season play, production per minute played, and defensive impact to the team...his 70-71 season has to rank in the top-5 of all-time.

I see a case for Wilt's 63-64 season for two reasons. One, he took just a horrible roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. And his post-season numbers, in a post-season that only averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting was just staggering.

Still, I would rank his 65-66 season right up there with his 66-67 season, if not higher. He just waxed the floor with Thurmond, Bellamy, and Russell in their post-season h2h's (including the post-season h2h's with Russell.) And, as I stated previously, Willis Reed was now a PF playing alongside Bellamy, but just the year before, in 64-65, Chamberlain crushed Reed in their nine h2h's. I don't think we have ever seen another season, in which a center so dominated all of his HOF peers, like Wilt did in his 65-66 and 66-67 seasons.

As for Shaq...I don't see 00-01 having any case over his 99-00 season. He was better in the regular season, and better in the post-season. The only edge that you could possibly give an 00-01 Shaq, would be in the fact that his Laker team had the most dominating post-season of all-time.

Edit. My bad. Now I see you are ranking KAJ, Wilt, and Shaq on their defensive side of the ball.

Right. The seasons are listed only by one number. i.e. 00 is 99-00 Shaq, 01 is 00-01 Shaq. Both seasons of his were tied for defensive impact (since it's supposed to reflect end-of-season play/form), so I listed them.

Wilt's top 5 offensive seasons:

67
62=63
68
61=66=70

Defensive:

64
66=68=72=73

Ironically, I have him winning DPOY (at least against Russell, Kareem) in every one of those seasons (plus 67, which is next in line) except for 64. I'll have to see how Nate matches up, so 67 and 72 might be close.

[LAZERUSS]

Right. The seasons are listed only by one number. i.e. 00 is 99-00 Shaq, 01 is 00-01 Shaq. Both seasons of his were tied for defensive impact (since it's supposed to reflect end-of-season play/form), so I listed them.

Wilt's top 5 offensive seasons:

67
62=63
68
61=66=70

Defensive:

64
66=68=72=73

Ironically, I have him winning DPOY (at least against Russell, Kareem) in every one of those seasons (plus 67, which is next in line) except for 64. I'll have to see how Nate matches up, so 67 and 72 might be close.

Not sure how Defensive Win Shares were calculated, but Chamberlain was considerably ahead of Nate in '67 and '72. And Wilt's '68 and '64 seasons are the greatest "non-Russell" seasons of all-time in that statistical category.

Having said that, however, Wilt's '67 season, while not as high in that category, was probably his peak defensive season. And in the post-season he dramatically reduced Russell and Thurmond's efficiency.

[fpliii]

Not sure how Defensive Win Shares were calculated, but Chamberlain was considerably ahead of Nate in '67 and '72. And Wilt's '68 and '64 seasons are the greatest "non-Russell" seasons of all-time in that statistical category.

Having said that, however, Wilt's '67 season, while not as high in that category, was probably his peak defensive season. And in the post-season he dramatically reduced Russell and Thurmond's efficiency.

Defensive win shares are useless, I wouldn't use them (I think they use block steal estimates, the latter of which come from assists). I'm looking at team defensive performance, using values from my calculations here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3 c&rm=full#gid=3

and assigning credit based on a variety of factors (size, reputation, limited block/steal numbers I have). For newer seasons I'm using BLK%/DRB% as well, and for very recent seasons, Defensive RAPM. Then I adjust for weaker eras, competition, and playoff performances (including defenses faced).

Anyhow though, do you feel those are his five best defensive seasons? Do you have him winning DPOY those years exactly (66,67,68,72,73)?

[plowking]

I dont need numbers to tell me who was the better basketball player since I witness both in depth. But I can guarantee you Duncans numbers, accomplishment, and impact was greater then LeBron's.

Prime Duncan in this Era would of Killed the Heat. It was sad to see Duncan playing with half a leg.

LeBron's True Peak is this coming up year. Stop overrating him so hard.

I love LeBron but I love Basketball more and No ****en way LeBrons Peak which was last year was greater then Duncans and not even Kobes.

Till LeBron becomes a lethal scorer he will never be Top 5, That simple.

Its apparent you don't have a very good grasp on basketball itself then. If you don't think 27ppg on 57% shooting is lethal, than you really don't.

I'm not overrating him at all. He is one of the best basketball players ever, and he is most certainly a more dynamic and better player than Tim Duncan ever was.

[LAZERUSS]

Defensive win shares are useless, I wouldn't use them (I think they use block steal estimates, the latter of which come from assists). I'm looking at team defensive performance, using values from my calculations here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0At9OxyY2Zhw6dF80TGxJQXliY0RlcXlxSHJXdGhjV3 c&rm=full#gid=3

and assigning credit based on a variety of factors (size, reputation, limited block/steal numbers I have). For newer seasons I'm using BLK%/DRB% as well, and for very recent seasons, Defensive RAPM. Then I adjust for weaker eras, competition, and playoff performances (including defenses faced).

Anyhow though, do you feel those are his five best defensive seasons? Do you have him winning DPOY those years exactly (66,67,68,72,73)?

I don't think there was any question that by '67, Wilt was the most dominant defensive player in the league. Now, whether he would have beaten Russell out in some kind of a vote, I don't know. Russell's reputation (and play, of course) continued right up thru his last season. I do believe that Chamberlain's '68 season would possibly have won a DPOY.

And I am convinced that Wilt would have won DPOY in '72. And given the fact that he was still voted first-team all-defense in '73, he likely would have won it that year, as well.

Still, in terms of at least individual defense, Thurmond's '72 and '73 seasons were probably the greatest ever. To consistently hold Kareem, in his greatest statistical seasons, to WAY below his normal scoring and shooting percentages (and even outscore and outshoot him in their '72 playff h2h) was just astonishing.

But here again, Wilt's overall defensive impact was greater than Nate's, even in those seasons. Fans forget that, while Wilt was knocking Kareem's sky hook all over the place in the '72 WCF's, he was also blocking a TON of the other Milwaukee players' shots, as well. Wilt had something like 33 total blocks in the last four games of that series.

Furthermore, if blocks are any indication of defense (and they are), Wilt was probably outblocking both Nate and Kareem in his last season, and probably by a considerable margin. We now know that Wilt, in his last season, blocked 5.42 shots per game. The very next season the NBA began officially recording blocks, and KA came in a 3.5 bpg, while Nate was at 2.9 bpg. One can only wonder what a mid-60's Chamberlain was averaging.

[SuperPippen]

Its apparent you don't have a very good grasp on basketball itself then. If you don't think 27ppg on 57% shooting is lethal, than you really don't.

I'm not overrating him at all. He is one of the best basketball players ever, and he is most certainly a more dynamic and better player than Tim Duncan ever was.

Arguably? Sure. Certainly? Absolutely not.

Duncan's contributions on the defensive end dwarf LeBron's, and ultimately allow him to have a greater impact on the game, making him a better player.

[fpliii]

I don't think there was any question that by '67, Wilt was the most dominant defensive player in the league. Now, whether he would have beaten Russell out in some kind of a vote, I don't know. Russell's reputation (and play, of course) continued right up thru his last season. I do believe that Chamberlain's '68 season would possibly have won a DPOY.

And I am convinced that Wilt would have won DPOY in '72. And given the fact that he was still voted first-team all-defense in '73, he likely would have won it that year, as well.

Still, in terms of at least individual defense, Thurmond's '72 and '73 seasons were probably the greatest ever. To consistently hold Kareem, in his greatest statistical seasons, to WAY below his normal scoring and shooting percentages (and even outscore and outshoot him in their '72 playff h2h) was just astonishing.

But here again, Wilt's overall defensive impact was greater than Nate's, even in those seasons. Fans forget that, while Wilt was knocking Kareem's sky hook all over the place in the '72 WCF's, he was also blocking a TON of the other Milwaukee players' shots, as well. Wilt had something like 33 total blocks in the last four games of that series.

Furthermore, if blocks are any indication of defense (and they are), Wilt was probably outblocking both Nate and Kareem in his last season, and probably by a considerable margin. We now know that Wilt, in his last season, blocked 5.42 shots per game. The very next season the NBA began officially recording blocks, and KA came in a 3.5 bpg, while Nate was at 2.9 bpg. One can only wonder what a mid-60's Chamberlain was averaging.

What about 66?

[LAZERUSS]

What about 66?

You would probably be a better judge of that. He did take his Sixers to the best record in the league that year. What my research has dug up (thanks to your Russell-Wilt h2h info, and this site... http://www.nbastats.net/, as well as BB-Reference), is that Wilt blew away his HOF peers that season. I wish we had the Bellamy-Wilt, and Thurmond-Wilt rebound numbers, but in terms of scoring (and rebounding against Russell), he just shelled Russell, Thurmond, and Bellamy. And he easily outshot Russell in their known h2h's, too. And given his history against both Bellamy and Nate, I suspect he plastered those two in FG%'s, as well.

The more I have researched that season, the more impressed I have become. I used to automatically label Wilt's 66-67 season as his greatest, but in terms of just thoroughly outplaying his peers (and given the quality of those peers), his 65-66 season was perhaps the most dominant season, by a center at least, in NBA history.

[Odinn]

Can you show me a single season as statistically, and team dominant that Duncan had as the last two Lebron seasons?

Not to mention the media hoopla, and incredible stretches of play about his play as there was for Lebron?
Duncan was the first player since KAJ with 30+ points & 15+ rebounds for 4 consecutive games in the playoffs. Actually Duncan is the only player since 1980.

[2010splash]

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Kareem

Anyone putting Bird or Hakeem above LeBron is a dolt. Jordan and LeBron are in the top 2 for sure. Clearly better stats than Shaq and their dominance was far longer sustained, though even if the quesiton is which player had the greatest one year peak, Jordan and LeBron have definitely had seasons better than 2000 Shaq (2013 LeBron easily at least).

[LAZERUSS]

Duncan's (and Russell's) numbers, while certainly exceptional, do not really do them justice.

[ZaaaaaH]

Its apparent you don't have a very good grasp on basketball itself then. If you don't think 27ppg on 57% shooting is lethal, than you really don't.

I'm not overrating him at all. He is one of the best basketball players ever, and he is most certainly a more dynamic and better player than Tim Duncan ever was.

Shots FIRED!

Enlighten me with ur education in basketball besides looking up stat sheets.

27ppg 57% is nice but not Lethal dont get it twisted especially the way LeBron cares for his FG% and Tries so hard not to take bad shots.

You are overrating him soon as u spit out saying LeBron is better then Tim Duncan. TOO Clear if u ask me. No doubt he is one of the best and I do hope that he does go down as GOAT but as of now his just not there.

You are clearly trolling or uneducated about Mr.Fundamental if you think his not even close to being a Dynamic player as LeBron.

Let me make this clear again. LeBron is not a Lethal Scorer. He does not carry the skill set to score at will. His a great/best TEAM player but as the Man and the Best player in the World he has long way to go on his ISO game.

Last year imo LeBron should of got DPY not Marc but even at that TD's defense is Far greater then LeBron's and this is away from stats just of impact.

Bottom line TD > LeBron

The new era kids stop overrating FG% :facepalm

[ZaaaaaH]

Duncan was the first player since KAJ with 30+ points & 15+ rebounds for 4 consecutive games in the playoffs. Actually Duncan is the only player since 1980.


Duncans Playoff history vs LeBrons Playoff history Not even close.


Out of his entire career in playoffs LeBron impressed me in only 2 games and a Quarter.

07 Game 6 against the Piston (I think it was game 6)
13 Game 6 4th Q against Spurs
13 Game 7 against the Spurs

With TD Too many to count but ya remember when TD hit that 3pt against the Suns. I still remember that day such a sick play POP drew out. :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Duncans Playoff history vs LeBrons Playoff history Not even close.


Out of his entire career in playoffs LeBron impressed me in only 2 games and a Quarter.

07 Game 6 against the Piston (I think it was game 6)
13 Game 6 4th Q against Spurs
13 Game 7 against the Spurs

With TD Too many to count but ya remember when TD hit that 3pt against the Suns. I still remember that day such a sick play POP drew out. :bowdown:

Not in the 09 Orlando series (G1, and G5 to a lesser extent), and last year G6 against Boston & G4 against Indiana? Duncan is a legend and his 03 playoff run is one of the GOAT, but LeBron's had some legit games.

[ZaaaaaH]

Not in the 09 Orlando series (G1, and G5 to a lesser extent), and last year G6 against Boston & G4 against Indiana? Duncan is a legend and his 03 playoff run is one of the GOAT, but LeBron's had some legit games.


09 against Orlando imo at the Time and moment LeBron and Cavs should of killed that team. LeBron hitting that big 3 to win the game and watching them celebrate like they just won the Finals made me realize at that moment they are not gonna beat the Magic.

Come on Boston? LeBron at his PEAK PRIME against a old Boston team not impressed. LeBron should be dropping 50ppg that series.

Pacers is just LOL. Best player in the World cant handle young Pacers who has no legit go to guy? Not impressed LeBron should of average 35/10/10 against those chumps.

These new Generation players just dont impress me. We still got Dirk,KG,TD,and Kobe still ballin them from the 90's thats just sad.

[fpliii]

09 against Orlando imo at the Time and moment LeBron and Cavs should of killed that team. LeBron hitting that big 3 to win the game and watching them celebrate like they just won the Finals made me realize at that moment they are not gonna beat the Magic.

Come on Boston? LeBron at his PEAK PRIME against a old Boston team not impressed. LeBron should be dropping 50ppg that series.

Pacers is just LOL. Best player in the World cant handle young Pacers who has no legit go to guy? Not impressed LeBron should of average 35/10/10 against those chumps.

These new Generation players just dont impress me. We still got Dirk,KG,TD,and Kobe still ballin them from the 90's thats just sad.

lol I dislike LeBron, but seriously? 09 the Orlando shooters were hot as hell and the Cavs had no answer for the Magic. Boston and the Pacers were incredible team defenses. I'm a big fan of KG and TD (bigs who are elite defenders/rebounders are my favorite types of players), and Kobe plays for my team, but I gotta give respect where it's due.

[T_L_P]

Top 5 peaks I've watched/seen a lot of footage from (requiring two seasons of play):

1.) 02-03 Duncan/00-01 Shaq
3.) 09-10 LeBron
4.) 03-04 Garnett


#5 is very hard. 09-10 Wade, 08-09 Paul, 08-09 Kobe, 05-06 Dirk? All very tough choices.

Gun to my head, I'd probably take Kobe. He ultimately went the distance and it's hard winning with someone as small as CP3.

09-10 LeBron or 12-13 LeBron is a tough one. 09 is clearly LeBron's best season, but 2012 comes second. He was a better defensive player in his Heat days but I'm not sure if that outweighs the insane athleticism he boasted in Cleveland. It's not like he was a bad defensive player in Cleveland from 08 onward.

Similar story for Garnett. He was better in 05 than he was in 03, but he didn't play in the Playoffs. It's very hard to judge a season if the guy didn't suit up for postseason action.

[Mr Feeny]

I never got to see MJ in the late 80's, when he was arguably at his athletic peak, but for me it's the following:


Jordan (1991-1993)
Shaq (2000-2002)
Lebron (2012-2013)
Olajuwon (1994-1995)

And then there is a significant drop off before getting to the next tier in my opinion (Duncan in 2003, Wade 06&09, Kobe 06-07 and KG 04)

Those first three (granted I, like 99% of the posters on this board weren't around to watch Kareem, Wilt, Russell, or even prime Magic and Bird) are the 3 greatest peaks I've ever seen. And I don't imagine we'll some someone play at that level for quite a bit.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I've probably posted it before but:

Shaq '00
Jordan '91
Kareem '77
Bird '86
Wilt '67

Hard to **** with that.

[Jlamb47]

91 Jordan
08 Kobe
03 DUncan
04 Garnett
00 Shaq
06 Dirk
93 Barkley
06 Wade
12 Lebron
94 Hakeem
96 Bird
94 Magic

not in order

[ShawkFactory]

lol I dislike LeBron, but seriously? 09 the Orlando shooters were hot as hell and the Cavs had no answer for the Magic. Boston and the Pacers were incredible team defenses. I'm a big fan of KG and TD (bigs who are elite defenders/rebounders are my favorite types of players), and Kobe plays for my team, but I gotta give respect where it's due.
Not to mention Cleveland had no one that could handle Dwight.

[Magic 32]

All I can remember thinking during the 09 ECF was thinking that none of the teams belonged there.

2009 was another lost LA/C battle like 86.

What could have been.... :cry:

Si if you have to pick Lebron, I guess 2012 is the year.

The 2013 postseason was nothing special after the Bucks series.

[ShawkFactory]

All I can remember from the 09 ECF was thinking that none of the teams belonged there.

2009 was another lost LA/C battle like 86.

What could have been.... :cry:
You're lucky it happened that way. Your man candy would have one less championship.

[Magic 32]

You're lucky it happened that way. Your man candy would have one less championship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agMiOY4nUGY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3KBsMXSYpY

http://thenosebleeds.nextimpulsemedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bos_g_bryant-rondo_mb_600.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agMiOY4nUGY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3KBsMXSYpY

http://thenosebleeds.nextimpulsemedia.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/bos_g_bryant-rondo_mb_600.jpg
Couple regular season games? I stand corrected.

[Magic 32]

Couple regular season games? I stand corrected.

Actually, Kobe was 6-1 against the big 3 after the 2008 finals.

[ShawkFactory]

Actually, Kobe was 6-1 against the big 3 after the 2008 finals.
You think Cleveland takes LA in the 2010 finals if they met up?

[Prime_Shaq]

1991 Jordan
2000 Shaq
1986 Bird
1977 Kareem
(Any year) Wilt

[SHAQisGOAT]

1991 Jordan
2000 Shaq
1986 Bird
1977 Kareem
(Any year) Wilt

:applause:

Same as mine's. I really think that's the best you can pick...

Oh, and imo Wilt's overall peak, considering everything, was in 1967.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's prime was from '60 thru '69, and his peak years were from '66 thru '68. In those three years he led his team to the best record in the league all three seasons, won three straight MVPs (and by staggering margins), a world title (and surely would have won another in '68 had he and his teammates not been obliterated by injuries.) And, he just CRUSHED his opposing HOF centers by HUGE margins in all seasons.

[feyki]

67 Wilt #1
72 Kareem #2
89 Jordan #3
62 Russell/94 Hakeem/03 Duncan #4

[Dr Hawk]

In some order:
91' Jordan
67' Wilt
00' Shaq
93' Olajuwon
77' Kareem

HM: 86' Bird, 03' Duncan, 09' Lebron

[Cold soul]

Shaq '00
Wilt '67
Jordan '91
Kareem '77
Hakeem '94
Wilt '67

Hakeem peak season can get underrated. I added him as my 6th.

[ArbitraryWater]

#1 Jordan 1990
#2 Shaq 2000
#3 Wilt 1967
#4 LeBron 2010
#5 Hakeem 1993

[ArbitraryWater]

Top 5 peaks I've watched/seen a lot of footage from (requiring two seasons of play):

1.) 02-03 Duncan/00-01 Shaq
3.) 09-10 LeBron
4.) 03-04 Garnett


#5 is very hard. 09-10 Wade, 08-09 Paul, 08-09 Kobe, 05-06 Dirk? All very tough choices.

Gun to my head, I'd probably take Kobe. He ultimately went the distance and it's hard winning with someone as small as CP3.

09-10 LeBron or 12-13 LeBron is a tough one. 09 is clearly LeBron's best season, but 2012 comes second. He was a better defensive player in his Heat days but I'm not sure if that outweighs the insane athleticism he boasted in Cleveland. It's not like he was a bad defensive player in Cleveland from 08 onward.

Similar story for Garnett. He was better in 05 than he was in 03, but he didn't play in the Playoffs. It's very hard to judge a season if the guy didn't suit up for postseason action.

looks like someone isn't dumb and has 2010 as Bron's best as well :applause:

he listened :applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

No order

'67 Wilt
'91 Jordan
'94 Hakeem
'00 Shaq
'03 Duncan

[Kvnzhangyay]

#1 Jordan 1990
#2 Shaq 2000
#3 Wilt 1967
#4 LeBron 2010
#5 Hakeem 1993

This is pretty similar to mine also

I don't really think there's any other peak that can be argued over these 5

[feyki]

This is pretty similar to mine also

I don't really think there's any other peak that can be argued over these 5


Kareem's 72 or 74 or 77 season arguably .