Convince me that Kobe is top 5 of all time

[Connor B]

I've seen this argument be made by more than just Kobe stans. Barkley was making it at one point, as well as some respectable Laker fans. I want you to give me a expnation as to why he is top 5. No stanning, no homerism, just give me logical reasons. For me he is top 10, maybe top 8-9 to be exact. My top 5 are solidly Jordan, Kareem, Magic - convince me why Kobe should be above people like Wilt, Bird, Russell, Duncan, even Lebron.

[selrahc]

because he is better than them

[G-Funk]

Only player other than MJ with zero weaknesses

If Jordan & Magic can be ahead of Wilt & Russell, why not Kobe?

he's resume is on par with players such as Kareem and Magic

MJ averaged 30/6/5 49%, Kobe as a starter 28/6/5 46%

Magic & Bird lacked defense, shouldn't top 5 players posses great offense and defense?

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe isn't top 5. You were right all along. Don't let morons convince you otherwise.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Compare his accolades to the top 25 players of all-time, and see where he stands. He has a case for top 5, not that I have in there. He is at least top 5 in nearly every category.

Kobe's ranks compared to the top 25 GOAT

Championships (5) - 5th, tied with Magic
Finals MVPs (2) - 5th, tied with Kareem, Bird, Hakeem
League MVPs (1) - 12th, tied with Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar, Dr J, Barkley, KG, Dirk, Robinson
Top 5 finishes in League MVP (11) - 2nd, tied with Russell
All-Star Teams (15) - 2nd, tied with Shaq
All-NBA First Teams (11) - 1st, tied with Karl Malone
All-NBA Teams (15) - 1st, tied with Kareem
All-Defensive First Teams (9) - 1st, tied with MJ, KG
All-Defensive Teams (12) - 2nd, tied with KG
Scoring Titles (2) - 3rd, tied with Kareem, Shaq
Career Points (31617) - 4th
Career Playoff Points (5640) - 3rd

ISH top 25


1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Lebron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Julius Erving
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Bob Pettit
21. John Havlicek
22. Dirk Nowitzki
23. George Mikan
24. David Robinson
25. Isiah Thomas

[WayOfWade]

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/17736-kobe-dunk-on-dwight-howard.jpg

Convinced yet?

[Soundwave]

Top five afro (prime) of all time.

http://www.hogwild.net/images/Balloons/2001.12.30/kobe.bryant-sniff.jpg

[Round Mound]

All Longevity Stats....He is In The Top 20-25 Impact Wise.

Watchable Contest? Then He is In The Top 10 For Sure.

[aj1987]

He's not. For me, he's at #10.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Name me 1 player normally listed in the top 5 that has a great sex appeal than Kobe.

You can't.

[Orlando Magic]

His achievements are a top 10 lock and debatably top 5... But his actual greatness as a player and peak are in the 15 to 25 range. Guaranteed I'll get shit from Lakers fans and non Lakers fans for both statements but they're both true.

[jstern]

He used to be top ten (due to team accomplishments), but then Lebron won his 4th MVP and 2nd Finals MVP, with an impressive game 7.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Name me 1 player normally listed in the top 5 that has a great sex appeal than Kobe. You can't.
Wilt, dude had his way with whatever woman he wanted and didn't need to get a tattoo to apologize for it

[kennethgriffin]

out of the top 10 players all time. most championships

#1 russell - 11
#2 jordan - 6
#3 kareem - 6
#4 kobe - 5
#4 magic - 5
#6 shaq - 4
#6 duncan - 4
#8 bird - 3
#9 wilt - 2
#10 hakeem - 2


out of the top 10 players all time. most finals mvps

#1 jordan - 6
#2 magic - 3
#2 duncan - 3
#2 shaq - 3
#5 kobe - 2
#5 hakeem - 2
#5 kareem - 2
#5 bird - 2
#9 wilt - 1
#10 russell - 0

out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all nba's

#1 kobe - 11
#2 jordan - 10
#2 kareem - 10
#2 duncan - 10
#3 bird - 9
#3 magic - 9
#4 shaq - 8
#5 wilt - 7
#6 hakeem - 6
#7 russell - 3

out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all defense's

#1 kobe - 9
#1 jordan - 9
#3 duncan - 8
#4 kareem - 5
#5 hakeem - 5
#6 wilt - 2
#7 russell - 1
#8 bird - 0
#8 magic - 0
#8 shaq - 0

out of the top 10 players all time. most allstar games

#1 kareem - 19
#2 kobe - 15
#2 shaq - 15
#4 duncan - 14
#4 jordan - 14
#6 wilt - 13
#7 bird - 12
#7 magic - 12
#7 russell - 12
#7 hakeem - 12


out of the top 10 players all time. most career points

#1 kareem 38k
#2 jordan 32k
#3 kobe 31.6k
#4 wilt 31.4k
#5 shaq 28k
#6 hakeem 26k
#7 duncan 23k
#8 bird 21k
#9 magic 17k
#10 russell 14k


out of the top 10 players all time. highest career average

#1 jordan 30ppg
#2 wilt 30ppg
#3 kobe 25ppg
#4 kareem 24,6ppg
#5 bird 24.2ppg
#6 shaq 23ppg
#7 hakeem 21ppg
#8 duncan 20ppg
#9 magic 19ppg
#10 russell 15ppg

out of the top 10 players all time. highest scoring single game

#1 wilt 100
#2 kobe 81

out of the top 10 players all time. their highest single season average

#1 wilt 50ppg
#2 jordan 37ppg
#3 kobe 35ppg
#4 ahhh f*ck it... you get the picture


why bother.. all of you people on this forum will just say "ya but peak this peak that... well out of the top 10 players ever. kobes peak from 06-10 rivals that of anyone asside from jordan

deal with it

[TheMilkyBarKid]

out of the top 10 players all time. most championships #1 russell - 11 #2 jordan - 6 #3 kareem - 6 #4 kobe - 5 #4 magic - 5 #6 shaq - 4 #6 duncan - 4 #8 bird - 3 #9 wilt - 2 #10 hakeem - 2 out of the top 10 players all time. most finals mvps #1 jordan - 6 #2 magic - 3 #2 duncan - 3 #2 shaq - 3 #5 kobe - 2 #5 hakeem - 2 #5 kareem - 2 #5 bird - 2 #9 wilt - 1 #10 russell - 0 out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all nba's #1 kobe - 11 #2 jordan - 10 #2 kareem - 10 #2 duncan - 10 #3 bird - 9 #3 magic - 9 #4 shaq - 8 #5 wilt - 7 #6 hakeem - 6 #7 russell - 3 out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all defense's #1 kobe - 9 #1 jordan - 9 #3 duncan - 8 #4 kareem - 5 #5 hakeem - 5 #6 wilt - 2 #7 russell - 1 #8 bird - 0 #8 magic - 0 #8 shaq - 0 out of the top 10 players all time. most allstar games #1 kareem - 19 #2 kobe - 15 #2 shaq - 15 #4 duncan - 14 #4 jordan - 14 #6 wilt - 13 #7 bird - 12 #7 magic - 12 #7 russell - 12 #7 hakeem - 12 out of the top 10 players all time. most career points #1 kareem 38k #2 jordan 32k #3 kobe 31.6k #4 wilt 31.4k #5 shaq 28k #6 hakeem 26k #7 duncan 23k #8 bird 21k #9 magic 17k #10 russell 14k out of the top 10 players all time. highest career average #1 jordan 30ppg #2 wilt 30ppg #3 kobe 25ppg #4 kareem 24,6ppg #5 bird 24.2ppg #6 shaq 23ppg #7 hakeem 21ppg #8 duncan 20ppg #9 magic 19ppg #10 russell 15ppg out of the top 10 players all time. highest scoring single game #1 wilt 100 #2 kobe 81 out of the top 10 players all time. their highest single season average #1 wilt 50ppg #2 jordan 37ppg #3 kobe 35ppg #4 ahhh f*ck it... you get the picture why bother.. all of you people on this forum will just say "ya but peak this peak that... well out of the top 10 players ever. kobes
peak from 06-10 rivals that of anyone asside from jordan deal with it
Shaq's peak is far better.

[kennethgriffin]

Shaq's peak is far better.


thats debatable

shaqs highest average is 29ppg
kobes highest average is 35ppg


shaqs highest scoring game is 61
kobes highest scoring game is 81

shaq has 1 mvp
kobe has 1 mvp

shaq made 3 straight finals and won 3 with kobe
kobe made 3 straight finals and won 2 with gasol

shaqs highest defensive honor is 2nd team all defense
kobes highest defensive honor is 1st team all defense

peak skills = kobe > shaq

peak clutch = kobe > shaq

peak play making = kobe > shaq

peak scoring = kobe > shaq

peak defense = kobe > shaq





i don't see it

:confusedshrug:

[G-Funk]

that was easy

[branslowski]

I don't have Kobe in my top 5. But I can't deny the facts that were posted on the first page.:eek: Wow.

Also Bird said Kobe was a top 5 great aswell. Also not gonna bother listening to ISH Kobe hating posters. They are irrelevant.

[kennethgriffin]

that was easy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmBH-fEFtKQ#t=0m41s

[The-Legend-24]

His resume speaks for itself, then add in that he's one the best all around players of all time, there.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

thats debatable shaqs highest average is 29ppg kobes highest average is 35ppg shaqs highest scoring game is 61 kobes highest scoring game is 81 shaq has 1 mvp kobe has 1 mvp shaq made 3 straight finals and won 3 with kobe kobe made 3 straight finals and won 2 with gasol shaqs highest defensive honor is 2nd team all defense kobes highest defensive honor is 1st team all defense peak skills = kobe > shaq peak clutch = kobe > shaq peak play making = kobe > shaq peak scoring = kobe > shaq peak defense = kobe > shaq i don't see it :confusedshrug:
Peak shaq could take almost any team to the conference finals, or at least past the first round, can't say the same about Kobe.
Plus shaq was a far more dominant finals performer.
Maybe you'll see that when you pull your head out of your ass :D

[DaSeba5]

He's not in the top 5, but you have to be a pretty big Kobe hater to not put him in the top 10 IMO.

[kennethgriffin]

Peak shaq could take almost any team to the conference finals, or at least past the first round, can't say the same about Kobe.
Plus shaq was a far more dominant finals performer.
Maybe you'll see that when you pull your head out of your ass :D


kobe took gasol to b2b titles

forget confrence finals... kobe won with a way lesser 2nd banana than shaq ever did

and the 3rd best player on LA was odom ( who never made the allstar game )

bynum didnt even play. 6ppg lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You don't need convincing. Looking at any objective measure that doesn't kiss Kobe's ass, it's quite clear he's not a top 5 player.

[branslowski]

kobe took gasol to b2b titles

forget confrence finals... kobe won with a way lesser 2nd banana than shaq ever did

and the 3rd best player on LA was odom ( who never made the allstar game )

bynum didnt even play. 6ppg lol

Naw, ISH told me Odoms 12ppg and Bynums 6ppg 3reb carried Kobe though:confusedshrug:

[G-Funk]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkpfp0whP71qamumko1_500.gif

[kennethgriffin]

You don't need convincing. Looking at any objective measure that doesn't kiss Kobe's ass, it's quite clear he's not a top 5 player.


so everything measurable is discounted/thrown out... but some biased baseless peak formula is the only true method ( which kobe actually has a real solid case for aswell )

so anything that favors kobe doesnt count

and what can't be proven either way other than word of mouth/opinion is valid

:lol


















f*ckin fa**ot

[branslowski]

You don't need convincing. Looking at any objective measure that doesn't kiss Kobe's ass, it's quite clear he's not a top 5 player.

I'm not agreeing that Kobe's top 5, but can you atleast come in the thread and discuss those Facts posted on the first page and Barkleys and Birds comments?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm not agreeing that Kobe's top 5, but can you atleast come in the thread and discuss those Facts posted on the first page and Barkleys and Birds comments?

I've seen better arguments, tbh. I have BOTH Kobe and Lebron at #9 and #10.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

kobe took gasol to b2b titles forget confrence finals... kobe won with a way lesser 2nd banana than shaq ever did and the 3rd best player on LA was odom ( who never made the allstar game ) bynum didnt even play. 6ppg lol
No gasol and no rings in 09/10 for Kobe.
Seriously I get you're a big fan of Kobe and the dude is in most top tens, but peak shaq>peak Kobe. Don't forget shaq won a ring with Kobe only getting 15ppg in the finals.

[branslowski]

I've seen better arguments, tbh. I have BOTH Kobe and Lebron at #9 and #10.

So still no debunk of the facts on the first page? They listed basically EVERY NBA gold standard and it equates Kobe to atleast top 5.

Look, I'm currently open minded, I'll accept any facts you may have that debunks those FACTs on the first page.

[kennethgriffin]

No gasol and no rings in 09/10 for Kobe.
Seriously I get you're a big fan of Kobe and the dude is in most top tens, but peak shaq>peak Kobe. Don't forget shaq won a ring with Kobe only getting 15ppg in the finals.


duh.. kobe cant win without atleast a serviceable kick stand

however... shaq needs the cream of the crop all mighty fortunate son of god like 2nd coming peak goat kick of all stands playing at their best

kobe and wade did twice as much for shaq

:cheers:

[branslowski]

No gasol and no rings in 09/10 for Kobe.
Seriously I get you're a big fan of Kobe and the dude is in most top tens, but peak shaq>peak Kobe. Don't forget shaq won a ring with Kobe only getting 15ppg in the finals.

No Pippen, No rings for MJ
No Mchale No Rings for Bird
Magic had Kareem and Worthy
Shaq had Kobe
Russell's teams were stacked

Kobe had Gasol

Yawl still pullin this card? :coleman:

[Marchesk]

I don't think you can put Kobe ahead of the GOAT bigs of KAJ, Wilt and Russell. MJ gets put ahead of them by many people because he's well, MJ. So that's an exception to the rule.

Magic had a fantastic career. I"m not seeing Kobe over him either. I think West gets overlooked in this. 30+ ppg average over nine finals? 31.9 average in elimination games with a 57 win percentage? That's Lebron numbers. And West has a career 27 ppg with a higher shooting percentage than Kobe.

[JBrizzy]

People's definition of what makes someone GOAT differs from person to person.

Some people look at the entire career and compile achievements. These people put Kobe further up the list.

Then you've got people who basically look at the players when they are at peak-level. If you look at things this way then you might have LeBron higher than Kobe because he has been dominant for years now.

It's all subjective man. You decide what criteria you judge the GOAT list and then make up your own mind.

[SuperPippen]

thats debatable

shaqs highest average is 29ppg
kobes highest average is 35ppg


shaqs highest scoring game is 61
kobes highest scoring game is 81

shaq has 1 mvp
kobe has 1 mvp

shaq made 3 straight finals and won 3 with kobe
kobe made 3 straight finals and won 2 with gasol

shaqs highest defensive honor is 2nd team all defense
kobes highest defensive honor is 1st team all defense

peak skills = kobe > shaq

peak clutch = kobe > shaq

peak play making = kobe > shaq

peak scoring = kobe > shaq

peak defense = kobe > shaq





i don't see it

:confusedshrug:

Do you have anything to support your argument other than cherry picked stats?

Do you actually... I don't know..... watch the games? Or does your basketball knowledge come solely from Basketball-Reference?

Anyway,this is my list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Kobe

[GrapeApe]

People's definition of what makes someone GOAT differs from person to person.

Some people look at the entire career and compile achievements. These people put Kobe further up the list.

Then you've got people who basically look at the players when they are at peak-level. If you look at things this way then you might have LeBron higher than Kobe because he has been dominant for years now.

It's all subjective man. You decide what criteria you judge the GOAT list and then make up your own mind.

Pretty much this. There's no definitive criteria or formula for ranking players.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

No Pippen, No rings for MJ No Mchale No Rings for Bird Magic had Kareem and Worthy Shaq had Kobe Russell's teams were stacked Kobe had Gasol Yawl still pullin this card? :coleman:
I'm trying to get the dude to concede that shaq's peak is superior to Kobe's, not a big ask

[Marchesk]

I'm trying to get the dude to concede that shaq's peak is superior to Kobe's, not a big ask

No worries, there is nobody who would take prime Kobe over prime Shaq to win a championship with.

[kennethgriffin]

No worries, there is nobody who would take prime Kobe over prime Shaq to win a championship with.

rarity of position doesnt make a person better

ya if your drafting you take a legendary center first cause the average good guard can drop 20ppg while the average good center is lucky to average 10ppg

so the difference between a kobe and a regular guard is 7ppg while the difference between shaq and a regular center is like 17ppg


people take centers first out of rarity

but that doesnt mean they were more talented

if you start comparing biased peak favoritism or position rarity. then jordan isnt the goat

5 centers would get drafted before jordan..

does that make them better? no

kobe is better than shaq. period. the facts prove it.

[blablabla]

Do you have anything to support your argument other than cherry picked stats?

Do you actually... I don't know..... watch the games? Or does your basketball knowledge come solely from Basketball-Reference?

Anyway,this is my list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
He at least has an argument, you on the other hand just managed to put 9 NBA players in order without writing their names wrong.

[LAZERUSS]

No legitimte argument whatsoever. None.

[kennethgriffin]

No legitimte argument whatsoever. None.

pretty sure a legitimate one was given multiple times on page 1

[LAZERUSS]

pretty sure a legitimate one was given multiple times on page 1

Hmmm...I went back over that page. They must have deleted the legitimate one's.

[branslowski]

Hmmm...I went back over that page. They must have deleted the legitimate one's.

Naw bruh u just ignorin it. Your opinion is irrelevant.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I don't think you can put Kobe ahead of the GOAT bigs of KAJ, Wilt and Russell. MJ gets put ahead of them by many people because he's well, MJ. So that's an exception to the rule.

Magic had a fantastic career. I"m not seeing Kobe over him either. I think West gets overlooked in this. 30+ ppg average over nine finals? 31.9 average in elimination games with a 57 win percentage? That's Lebron numbers. And West has a career 27 ppg with a higher shooting percentage than Kobe.

Wilt

Wilt

Wilt
Lol



He used to be top ten (due to team accomplishments), but then Lebron won his 4th MVP and 2nd Finals MVP, with an impressive game 7.
LOL

[KG215]

thats debatable

shaqs highest average is 29ppg
kobes highest average is 35ppg


shaqs highest scoring game is 61
kobes highest scoring game is 81

shaq has 1 mvp
kobe has 1 mvp

shaq made 3 straight finals and won 3 with kobe
kobe made 3 straight finals and won 2 with gasol

shaqs highest defensive honor is 2nd team all defense
kobes highest defensive honor is 1st team all defense

peak skills = kobe > shaq

peak clutch = kobe > shaq

peak play making = kobe > shaq

peak scoring = kobe > shaq







i don't see it

:confusedshrug:
You're even more delusional than I thought if you don't think Shaq, at his absolute best, wasn't better than Kobe at his absolute best by a pretty considerable margin.



peak defense = kobe > shaq
And

:oldlol: at this part

[TheMilkyBarKid]

rarity of position doesnt make a person better ya if your drafting you take a legendary center first cause the average good guard can drop 20ppg while the average good center is lucky to average 10ppg so the difference between a kobe and a regular guard is 7ppg while the difference between shaq and a regular center is like 17ppg people take centers first out of rarity but that doesnt mean they were more talented if you start comparing biased peak favoritism or position rarity. then jordan isnt the goat 5 centers would get drafted before jordan.. does that make them better? no kobe is better than shaq. period. the facts prove it.
Hahaha your logic is terrible, you can spin it however you want shaq is better than Kobe at the end of the day. Kobe ain't even the best player to play for the Lakers in the 21st century, how does that make you feel?

[chazzy]

He's not

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hahaha your logic is terrible, you can spin it however you want shaq is better than Kobe at the end of the day. Kobe ain't even the best player to play for the Lakers in the 21st century, how does that make you feel?
Kobe is the second greatest Laker behind Magic. Shaq is arguably third at best but Kareem and West are better candidates probably.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Kobe is the second greatest Laker behind Magic. Shaq is arguably third at best but Kareem and West are better candidates probably.
Note I said player to play for the Lakers, there is a difference

[branslowski]

Compare his accolades to the top 25 players of all-time, and see where he stands. He has a case for top 5, not that I have in there. He is at least top 5 in nearly every category.

Kobe's ranks compared to the top 25 GOAT

Championships (5) - 5th, tied with Magic
Finals MVPs (2) - 5th, tied with Kareem, Bird, Hakeem
League MVPs (1) - 12th, tied with Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar, Dr J, Barkley, KG, Dirk, Robinson
Top 5 finishes in League MVP (11) - 2nd, tied with Russell
All-Star Teams (15) - 2nd, tied with Shaq
All-NBA First Teams (11) - 1st, tied with Karl Malone
All-NBA Teams (15) - 1st, tied with Kareem
All-Defensive First Teams (9) - 1st, tied with MJ, KG
All-Defensive Teams (12) - 2nd, tied with KG
Scoring Titles (2) - 3rd, tied with Kareem, Shaq
Career Points (31617) - 4th
Career Playoff Points (5640) - 3rd

ISH top 25

Have yet to be debunked....

[branslowski]

out of the top 10 players all time. most championships

#1 russell - 11
#2 jordan - 6
#3 kareem - 6
#4 kobe - 5
#4 magic - 5
#6 shaq - 4
#6 duncan - 4
#8 bird - 3
#9 wilt - 2
#10 hakeem - 2


out of the top 10 players all time. most finals mvps

#1 jordan - 6
#2 magic - 3
#2 duncan - 3
#2 shaq - 3
#5 kobe - 2
#5 hakeem - 2
#5 kareem - 2
#5 bird - 2
#9 wilt - 1
#10 russell - 0

out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all nba's

#1 kobe - 11
#2 jordan - 10
#2 kareem - 10
#2 duncan - 10
#3 bird - 9
#3 magic - 9
#4 shaq - 8
#5 wilt - 7
#6 hakeem - 6
#7 russell - 3

out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all defense's

#1 kobe - 9
#1 jordan - 9
#3 duncan - 8
#4 kareem - 5
#5 hakeem - 5
#6 wilt - 2
#7 russell - 1
#8 bird - 0
#8 magic - 0
#8 shaq - 0

out of the top 10 players all time. most allstar games

#1 kareem - 19
#2 kobe - 15
#2 shaq - 15
#4 duncan - 14
#4 jordan - 14
#6 wilt - 13
#7 bird - 12
#7 magic - 12
#7 russell - 12
#7 hakeem - 12


out of the top 10 players all time. most career points

#1 kareem 38k
#2 jordan 32k
#3 kobe 31.6k
#4 wilt 31.4k
#5 shaq 28k
#6 hakeem 26k
#7 duncan 23k
#8 bird 21k
#9 magic 17k
#10 russell 14k


out of the top 10 players all time. highest career average

#1 jordan 30ppg
#2 wilt 30ppg
#3 kobe 25ppg
#4 kareem 24,6ppg
#5 bird 24.2ppg
#6 shaq 23ppg
#7 hakeem 21ppg
#8 duncan 20ppg
#9 magic 19ppg
#10 russell 15ppg

out of the top 10 players all time. highest scoring single game

#1 wilt 100
#2 kobe 81

out of the top 10 players all time. their highest single season average

#1 wilt 50ppg
#2 jordan 37ppg
#3 kobe 35ppg
#4 ahhh f*ck it... you get the picture


why bother.. all of you people on this forum will just say "ya but peak this peak that... well out of the top 10 players ever. kobes peak from 06-10 rivals that of anyone asside from jordan

deal with it

Not debunked yet...

[Fresh Kid]

Convince me that Lebron is top 25 of all time...

[no pun intended]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/077/507/Kobe-Grace-Jones.jpeg

Convinced now?

[GrapeApe]

Convince me that Lebron is top 25 of all time...

Convince me that you don't have an extra chromosome.

[Fresh Kid]

Convince me that you don't have an extra chromosome.
Convince that you dont think your avatar iz a masterpiece.

[LosScandalous]

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2004/04/news/040913/kbryant.jpg
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kobe+Bryant+Los+Angeles+Lakers+v+New+Orleans+2D5_g J-4GDJl.jpg

Most handsome player in the top 10.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.walletpop.ca/media/2012/08/vanessa-bryant.jpg

Hottest wife out of the top 10 players.

impossible to debunk this.

[Fresh Kid]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.walletpop.ca/media/2012/08/vanessa-bryant.jpg

Hottest wife out of the top 10 players.

impossible to debunk this.
Kobe doing his thang:cheers:

[aj1987]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.walletpop.ca/media/2012/08/vanessa-bryant.jpg

Hottest wife out of the top 10 players.

impossible to debunk this.
http://i.imgur.com/jcSoDa5.jpg

[Fresh Kid]

http://i.imgur.com/jcSoDa5.jpg
Kobe hater:roll:
anyway, vanessa iz thicker bro, kobe wins:cheers:

[aj1987]

Kobe hater:roll:
anyway, vanessa iz thicker bro, kobe wins:cheers:
You're retarded if you think I'm a Kobe hater.

[Fresh Kid]

You're retarded if you think I'm a Kobe hater.
my bad, I saw tha wade pic and judged you incorrectly, but Kobe's wife iz better, sorry to tell you.

[fpliii]

In terms of resume? Maybe.

Would he be one of my top five picks if we're holding an all-time draft? No.

Kobe's a great player, a top five guard ever. I don't do GOAT lists anymore (though I like the draft idea), but I do know who my top three all-time are (top two are neck and neck, third guy is clearly behind them but clearly better than everyone else). Kobe is one of ten players I'm the next tier from whom you'd get a similar level of production over a career. His peak isn't at the highest level (obviously one of the best ever for a non-big though), but he's given you a lot of great offensive seasons. If we're holding an all-time draft, even if he and another Shaq are at ends leading to a nasty breakup, he won't have the same responsibility on offense in his absolute prime and will be able to play a more all-around game eith 30 or so poonts on solid efficiency. Not bad.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

Kobe hater:roll: anyway, vanessa iz thicker bro, kobe wins:cheers:
If were gonna get into scoring with women wilt beats the rest of the top ten combined.
HE IZZ MORE ALFA THAN KOBY!!WILT WINS. ETHERED U BITCH!

[SpurrDurr]

Cannot convince you of that since i think he's a top 10 player.

[Fresh Kid]

If were gonna get into scoring with women wilt beats the rest of the top ten combined.
HE IZZ MORE ALFA THAN KOBY!!WILT WINS. ETHERED U BITCH!
You didnt ethered me exactly, cuz wilt isnt alive bro.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

You didnt ethered me exactly, cuz wilt isnt alive bro.
I bet you're mother shot up on heroin when she was pregnant with you

[talkingconch]

Arguably top 5, top 8 for certain

[Fresh Kid]

I bet my mother shot up on heroin when she was pregnant with me
you could be right.

[TheMilkyBarKid]

I'm trash and Knicks will not sniff a ring in my lifetime
I agree

[sportjames23]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/077/507/Kobe-Grace-Jones.jpeg

Convinced now?


:roll: :roll: :roll:

[havoc33]

Kobe's peak was just as good as Shaq's, plus he has played on a high level for much longer and achieved far more than Shaq ever did. That is why Kobe is ranked higher alltime than Shaq. Shaq should have been ranked in the top 5 somewhere, but a poor work ethic and underachievement before Phil came in hurts his resume overall. In 2000 Shaq put up one of the most dominant seasons ever, yet in 2001 he was back to coasting again, feeling content after winning the chip. Kobe did most of the heavy work in the regular season and in the Playoffs, until Shaq feasted again in the Finals.

Since 2001, Kobe has been one of the top 5 players in the league (and probably #1 from 2005-2009). Think about it, that's 13 years straight as a top 5 player. That's insane.

[Lebron23]

Nooooo. He only has 1 MVp, and 2 finals MVP. A top 5 player of all time needs to be a multiple MVP, and multiple finals MVP ( at least 3 Finals MVP)

[Vienceslav]

He's top 10, maybe as high as 8, top 10 is just a stretch at this point.

[Lebron23]

Who is your top 5?

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell and Bird/Duncan/Shaq/Wilt.

[havoc33]

Nooooo. He only has 1 MVp, and 2 finals MVP. A top 5 player of all time needs to be a multiple MVP, and multiple finals MVP ( at least 3 Finals MVP)Regular season MVP's have no real merit anymore, as the voters will change the definition of what is a MVP to fit their own agenda. That is how Steve Nash has two mvp's, while Kobe is only standing at one. It's a popularity contest, not who's the best player in the league.

Back in the 80's it used to be best player in the league, but after they got bored of voting for MJ, it became who's having the best season (Barkley, Malone), best player on best team (Nowitzki), who makes his teammates better (Nash), best cinderella story of the year (Rose). It simply has no real value anymore.

And your whole "needs to have 3 Finals MVP's to be in the top 5" argument is just stupid. That means neither Wilt, Bird or Kareem makes your top 5 all time? That is just laughable. :oldlol: Who do you have in your top 5? I'm very curious.. :rolleyes:

[Unbiased_one]

Regular season MVP's have no real merit anymore, as the voters will change the definition of what is a MVP to fit their own agenda. That is how Steve Nash has two mvp's, while Kobe is only standing at one. It's a popularity contest, not who's the best player in the league.

Back in the 80's it used to be best player in the league, but after they got bored of voting for MJ, it became who's having the best season (Barkley, Malone), best player on best team (Nowitzki), who makes his teammates better (Nash), best cinderella story of the year (Rose). It simply has no real value anymore.

And your whole "needs to have 3 Finals MVP's to be in the top 5" argument is just stupid. That means neither Wilt, Bird or Kareem makes your top 5 all time? That is just laughable. :oldlol: Who do you have in your top 5? I'm very curious.. :rolleyes:

Nash doesn't deserve two, but then Kobe only deserves one (if that).

[havoc33]

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell and Bird/Duncan/Shaq/Wilt.
You moron. Neither Kareem, Wilt, Shaq or Bird qualify for your own criteria of a top 5 player.

[Lebron23]

You moron. Neither Kareem, Wilt or Bird qualify for your own criteria of a top 5 player.

Multiple MVP fakkit. Lebron > Kobe. Those guys and Lebron are better Finals Performer Than Kobe.

[Doranku]

Nooooo. He only has 1 MVp, and 2 finals MVP. A top 5 player of all time needs to be a multiple MVP, and multiple finals MVP ( at least 3 Finals MVP)



Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell and Bird/Duncan/Shaq/Wilt.

Kareem - 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Bird - 3 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Wilt - 4 MVPs, 1 FMVP



Multiple MVP fakkit. Lebron > Kobe. Those guys and Lebron are better Finals Performer Than Kobe.

Shaq - 1 MVP





You're a f*cking idiot.

[havoc33]

Nash doesn't deserve two, but then Kobe only deserves one (if that).
Depends on your definition, doesn't it? If the MVP had a clear cut definition, then it would be easy to say if it's right or not. One thing is for sure though, no way in hell Nash deserved those back to back MVP's.

[havoc33]

Multiple MVP fakkit. Lebron > Kobe. Those guys and Lebron are better Finals Performer Than Kobe.
Next time try to use your brain when debating. You can't even make a top 5 based on your own criteria. Beyond retarded.

[Jameerthefear]

Kareem - 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Bird - 3 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Wilt - 4 MVPs, 1 FMVP




Shaq - 1 MVP





You're a f*cking idiot.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Sharmer]

Kobe out of Shaq ass for 3 rings, that knocks him down the list.

[Vienceslav]

Kareem - 6 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Bird - 3 MVPs, 2 FMVPs
Wilt - 4 MVPs, 1 FMVP




Shaq - 1 MVP





You're a f*cking idiot.
Well I guess that's that.

[Indian guy]

The criteria for MVP hasn't changed an iota over the last 30 years. It has ALWAYS gone to the best player on a top 3 team, with the winner having the best combination of statistics and story line. '88 MJ and '06 Nash are the lone exceptions to this. In MJ's case, he was insanely dominant statistically and led a team of role players to the all-important 50-win mark, so the voters blinked. In Nash's case, it was an odd season. Players superior to him were either stuck on 1-man squads who weren't winning much(LeBron and Kobe), won less games(Wade) or weren't as valuable to their team(Dirk), while Nash led Phx to the league's 4th best record while losing his best scorer from the prior season. In the end, the decision wasn't that difficult. Kobe has NEVER been in either of these situations. The closest he came was '06, but you're not winning MVP on a 45-win team, sorry. Other than that, he has had a legit case for only 1 season in his career - 2008 - and he won. Nothing has prevented him from posting the best combination of numbers and team-success the other 16 years of his career, he just didn't do it. If he had, he would've have won more MVPs, because the criteria hasn't changed an iota over the last 30 years.

And :oldlol: @ the MVP award not having any credibility. I guess fans obsessively debate about who will win every ****ing season just for the heck of it :rolleyes:. We debate because we know how legit and prestigious the award is. Only the player with a truly special season wins, and it matters a great deal in all-time rankings.

[Lebron23]

The criteria for MVP hasn't changed an iota over the last 30 years. It has ALWAYS gone to the best player on a top 3 team, with the winner having the best combination of statistics and story line. '88 MJ and '06 Nash are the lone exceptions to this. In MJ's case, he was insanely dominant statistically and led a team of role players to the all-important 50-win mark, so the voters blinked. In Nash's case, it was an odd season. Players superior to him were either stuck on 1-man squads who weren't winning much(LeBron and Kobe), won less games(Wade) or weren't as valuable to their team(Dirk), while Nash led Phx to the league's 4th best record while losing his best scorer from the prior season. In the end, the decision wasn't that difficult. Kobe has NEVER been in either of these situations. The closest he came was '06, but you're not winning MVP on a 45-win team, sorry. Other than that, he has had a legit case for only 1 season in his career - 2008 - and he won. Nothing has prevented him from posting the best combination of numbers and team-success the other 16 years of his career, he just didn't do it. If he had, he would've have won more MVPs, because the criteria hasn't changed an iota over the last 30 years.

And :oldlol: @ the MVP award not having any credibility. I guess fans obsessively debate about who will win every ****ing season just for the heck of it :rolleyes:. We debate because we know how legit and prestigious the award is. Only the player with a truly special season wins, and it matters a great deal in all-time rankings.


This

Mr. Bryant only deserves 1 MVP in his NBA Career. The MVP is always given to the best player on the best team in the NBA ( Top 3 record).

He's not a top 5 player. Come on Lebron is a 4x NBA MVp, and 2x Finals. He's barely top 9-10.

[K Xerxes]

Pretty sad when the only real arguments made in favour of Kobe are regular season longevity awards.

[K Xerxes]

I absolutely abhor ranking by accolades, since that completely ignores context of achievements or how GOOD the actual player was. But, nevertheless, it's still not that difficult to tear down the following cherry-picked arguments...


out of the top 10 players all time. most championships

#1 russell - 11
#2 jordan - 6
#3 kareem - 6
#4 kobe - 5
#4 magic - 5
#6 shaq - 4
#6 duncan - 4
#8 bird - 3
#9 wilt - 2
#10 hakeem - 2

Top 10 players is really ambiguous now since LeBron has put himself in the conversation in the eyes of most people, so it's probably more accurate to say 'top 11'. But, yes, this list is fine.


out of the top 10 players all time. most finals mvps

#1 jordan - 6
#2 magic - 3
#2 duncan - 3
#2 shaq - 3
#5 kobe - 2
#5 hakeem - 2
#5 kareem - 2
#5 bird - 2
#9 wilt - 1
#10 russell - 0

Russell had 0 because the award didn't exist before 1969. Had the award actually existed, it would be a lock in to say that he would have won AT LEAST more than 2/11 FMVPs, thus pushing Kobe out of the top 5. Wilt would have certainly won in 1967, equallying Kobe.

Secondly, FMVP don't always correctly indicate the value of a player in the a playoff run. The best player on a team doesn't always win the FMVP - Duncan was a better player than Parker in 2007, but didn't win it, because Parker exploited matchups against the 4-0 demolition of Cavs, but was thoroughly outperformed by Duncan in the previous (more difficult) rounds. Bird was the best player on the Celtics for 3/3 title runs. Kareem was the best for at least 3/6 (definitely in 1980 where he was robbed of FMVP). Magic was better than Worthy in 88.

So a more useful ranking would be who was the best player and leader of the team throughout a playoffs run ("Playoffs MVP")

Russell - 11
Jordan - 6
Duncan - 4 (99, 03, 05, 07)
Kareem - 3 (71, 80, 82)
Magic - 3 (85, 87, 88)
Shaq - 3 (00, 01, 02)
Bird 3 - (80, 84, 86)

Then Hakeem, Kobe, LeBron and Wilt round off the top 11 with 2.

Since you conveniently ignored MVP awards for some reason (which I'm positive counts as an accolade), out of the top 11:

Kareem - 6
Jordan - 5
Russell - 5
LeBron - 4
Wilt - 4
Bird - 3
Magic - 3
Duncan - 2
Kobe - 1
Hakeem - 1
Shaq - 1

Kobe joint last... again. That's not even mentioning the flaws of the MVP system (no context whatsoever and doesn't always reward the BEST player).


out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all nba's

#1 kobe - 11
#2 jordan - 10
#2 kareem - 10
#2 duncan - 10
#3 bird - 9
#3 magic - 9
#4 shaq - 8
#5 wilt - 7
#6 hakeem - 6
#7 russell - 3

So now we get onto the awards that reward regular season logevity over everything else. No surprise. Obviously this favours Kobe, but it's worth pointing out that there are 2 guard and forward spots, while only 1 center spot, thus obviously disadvantaging centers.


out of the top 10 players all time. most 1st team all defense's

#1 kobe - 9
#1 jordan - 9
#3 duncan - 8
#4 kareem - 5
#5 hakeem - 5
#6 wilt - 2
#7 russell - 1
#8 bird - 0
#8 magic - 0
#8 shaq - 0

This is probably the most bullshit since we was gifted the last couple of ones, and, once again, this disadvantages centers as there's only one spot.

Anyway, had the award existed before Russell retired, I'm not sure we'd be seeing Kobe on top, even with only one spot for him each year.

If there were 2 center spots, Kareem would have 11, hakeem would also have 9, so Kobe's not really first either. Although this is another good cherry picked accolade.

No DPOY?


out of the top 10 players all time. most allstar games

#1 kareem - 19
#2 kobe - 15
#2 shaq - 15
#4 duncan - 14
#4 jordan - 14
#6 wilt - 13
#7 bird - 12
#7 magic - 12
#7 russell - 12
#7 hakeem - 12

Very insightful, this will definitely determine my rankings. :facepalm


out of the top 10 players all time. most career points

#1 kareem 38k
#2 jordan 32k
#3 kobe 31.6k
#4 wilt 31.4k
#5 shaq 28k
#6 hakeem 26k
#7 duncan 23k
#8 bird 21k
#9 magic 17k
#10 russell 14k

For a player who's primary forte is scoring... I certainly hope he's near the top.


out of the top 10 players all time. highest career average

#1 jordan 30ppg
#2 wilt 30ppg
#3 kobe 25ppg
#4 kareem 24,6ppg
#5 bird 24.2ppg
#6 shaq 23ppg
#7 hakeem 21ppg
#8 duncan 20ppg
#9 magic 19ppg
#10 russell 15ppg

Same as above, although including Lebron, he'd be 4th.


out of the top 10 players all time. highest scoring single game

#1 wilt 100
#2 kobe 81

Irrelevant. I don't care what he dropped on a crap team in the regular season, what's his career high in the playoffs, huh?


out of the top 10 players all time. their highest single season average

#1 wilt 50ppg
#2 jordan 37ppg
#3 kobe 35ppg
#4 ahhh f*ck it... you get the picture

I get the picture that the last few have been all based on scoring. Where's the rebounding? Quite unfair you'd leave that out with all the centers and big men here who have a larger impact on the game in that regard.


why bother.. all of you people on this forum will just say "ya but peak this peak that... well out of the top 10 players ever. kobes peak from 06-10 rivals that of anyone asside from jordan

LOL! Kobe's peak doesn't rival most of the top 10. The only argument you have is to cherry pick stats to favour your argument - always using championships (because he 3 with Shaq as the alpha - not saying Kobe wasn't a key part) and REGULAR SEASON longevity awards. Only 2 of the criteria you used above are based on playoffs, the rest are designed to suit Kobe.

There's no context or any information of value. No discussion about the relative strength of era or position to get those awards. It's all empty bullshit.

The only way Kobe is in the top 5 is if we rank players on longevity.

[havoc33]

Secondly, FMVP don't always correctly indicate the value of a player in the a playoff run. The best player on a team doesn't always win the FMVP - Duncan was a better player than Parker in 2007, but didn't win it, because Parker exploited matchups against the 4-0 demolition of Cavs, but was thoroughly outperformed by Duncan in the previous (more difficult) rounds. Bird was the best player on the Celtics for 3/3 title runs. Kareem was the best for at least 3/6 (definitely in 1980 where he was robbed of FMVP). Magic was better than Worthy in 88.

So a more useful ranking would be who was the best player and leader of the team throughout a playoffs run ("Playoffs MVP")

Russell - 11
Jordan - 6
Duncan - 4 (99, 03, 05, 07)
Kareem - 3 (71, 80, 82)
Magic - 3 (85, 87, 88)
Shaq - 3 (00, 01, 02)
Bird 3 - (80, 84, 86)

Then Hakeem, Kobe, LeBron and Wilt round off the top 11 with 2.

If you're trying to stay objective, then you should probably mention that Kobe, not Shaq, was the Lakers best player through the first three rounds of the 2001 Playoffs.




Kobe joint last... again. That's not even mentioning the flaws of the MVP system (no context whatsoever and doesn't always reward the BEST player).


So can we all agree that the MVP is a highly subjective BS award?


The only way Kobe is in the top 5 is if we rank players on longevity.Newsflash; longevity DOES matter in these discussions, you cannot take it out of an GOAT discussion. An extended level of excellence will ultimately make you rank higher than your contemporaries. That's partly why people have Abdul Jabbar in the top 3, his body of work is astonishing. The dude won Finals MVP's 14 years apart! That's CRAZY, and it is saying something about the skills of that basketball player being able to stay at the top for so long and cope with the inevitable rule changes and generational changes of the game. Kobe has been top 5 for 13 straight years (#1 for 4 years probably), and only now this year he might fall off. That is the very definition of greatness. (not that I personally have Kobe in the top 5, with me he rests comfortably at 6th).

[K Xerxes]

If you're trying to stay objective, then you should probably mention that Kobe, not Shaq, was the Lakers best player through the first three rounds of the 2001 Playoffs.

:oldlol:

Who buys this bs? Kobe was arguably better against SAS, but against Portland and Sacramento, kobe was better overall?

In the finals, it was no contest obviously

It's absolutely LUDICROUS to suggest that Kobe was the best player for the Lakers in 01 - at best, you could make an argument that he was the 1b. But Shaq was the best player, he was the alpha, and he was the biggest reason they ultimately won those playoffs. To suggest otherwise is blind fanboyism.


So can we all agree that the MVP is a highly subjective BS award?

You can think whatever, but to then use all first team, all defensive teams and freaking all star appearances is frankly hypocrisy and doesn't make sense. Even FMVP doesn't capture the full extent of impact as I've previous said. All it is is blatant cherry picking on the side of Kobe fans to prop him up.


Newsflash; longevity DOES matter in these discussions, you cannot take it out of an GOAT discussion. An extended level of excellence will ultimately make you rank higher than your contemporaries.

Perhaps if you stop straw manning my argument, you will see that I never said longevity DOESN'T matter. I said that for Kobe to be top 5, we will have to base it on longevity and discount other factors, such as overall impact on a game or prime/peak performance.


That's partly why people have Abdul Jabbar in the top 3, his body of work is astonishing. The dude won Finals MVP's 14 years apart! That's CRAZY, and it is saying something about the skills of that basketball player being able to stay at the top for so long and cope with the inevitable rule changes and generational changes of the game.

Kareem was also a lot more dominant in his prime and peak years (unfortunately was surrounded by rubbish for close to a decade), more dominant offensively and defensively, which is a bigger reason why he's higher on my GOAT list.


Kobe has been top 5 for 13 straight years (#1 for 4 years probably)

In terms of best player in the league, I don't see how you can make a case for him being best player for more than 3 years:

97 - MJ
98 - MJ
99 - Shaq
00 - Shaq
01 - Shaq
02 - Shaq
03 - Duncan
04 - Garnett
05 - Duncan
06 - Kobe
07 - Kobe
08 - Kobe
09 - LeBron
10 - LeBron
11 - LeBron
12 - LeBron
13 - LeBron

And, yes, I agree that his longevity is top 5, but that doesn't mean that's what we should rank everything on.

Overall, if we take both sides of the court into account, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan and LeBron have more impact on a game in their prime and peak years. I could probably name others, but Kobe's absolute best doesn't compare IMO.


and only now this year he might fall off. That is the very definition of greatness. (not that I personally have Kobe in the top 5, with me he rests comfortably at 6th).

Not my definition of greatness, sorry. Kobe is in the #9-11 range for me if I look at just how good and impactful he was/is.

[COnDEMnED]

His achievements are a top 10 lock and debatably top 5... But his actual greatness as a player and peak are in the 15 to 25 range. Guaranteed I'll get shit from Lakers fans and non Lakers fans for both statements but they're both true.
Wa.....wait...so his...uhhh, so his um.....what? Do achievements come...his achievements came when he was..uhh..what? Holy shit dude...how does one get top 5 "achievements" all time but... You know what...my head hurts..I'm going to go lie down and figure out how to respond to you.

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[I<3NBA]

everyone knows you can't be a top 5 when you're a rapist. you can't even break in top 10. simply speaking, you are forever stricken from the list.

[havoc33]

Overall, if we take both sides of the court into account, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan and LeBron have more impact on a game in their prime and peak years. I could probably name others, but Kobe's absolute best doesn't compare IMO.



Not my definition of greatness, sorry. Kobe is in the #9-11 range for me if I look at just how good and impactful he was/is.



Look, ranking the GOAT will ALWAYS be subjective, because there is simply too many factors going into such a ranking. Some will value advanced stats, some accolades, other simply winning chips. It's a combination of many things, and longevity will ultimately matter, just like peak and overall impact on the game. Pippen for example, is a difficult player to rank, because stat heads or people who didn't see him play could easily dismiss him as being not that impressive if only studying his PER or FG% in the Playoffs. People who watched the game back then though, KNEW his overall impact in all facets of the game. Kids will now look at Pippen's box score from Game 1 of the 1998 ECF vs the Pacers, and think he had a terrible game (he scored 4 pts, 1-9 from the floor), but he in fact dominated that game with his defense on Mark Jackson. This is why he was a top 25 of all time in my book, but others could drop him as low as 40. See what I'm getting at here?

Now, I'm very curious how you would rank Kobe's prime all time? His physical and statistical prime was probably from 06-07 but in terms you success you have to point to 08-10. Altogether, this 5 year period was easily worthy of top 10 peak status of all time IMO. Why for example, do you value Magic's peak to be so much better (which you have insinuated by your previous answers)? I'd say Kobe and Magic's peaks are very comparable, both from a statistical and achievement point of view. They both won two chips in this period, got MVP's, were putting up stupendous numbers etc while they were either considered the best or 2nd best player in the league (Kobe arguably second to Lebron in 09/10, Magic 2nd to Bird in 86, MJ in 90/91).

[Fresh Kid]

Kobe out of Shaq ass for 3 rings, that knocks him down the list.
Lebron would have 0 if it werent for wade, bosh, and allen.

[tpols]

Not my definition of greatness, sorry. Kobe is in the #9-11 range for me.
Top nine player of all time.. no greatness though:biggums:

You realize how big an honor it was to to be named to top 50 all time when they did it a while back.. and you think top ten isnt even great.

[Odinn]

There is nothing to be cconvinced about.

Why did you give the opportunity to Kobe-stans to come out from their caves?

/thread.

[K Xerxes]

Look, ranking the GOAT will ALWAYS be subjective, because there is simply too many factors going into such a ranking. Some will value advanced stats, some accolades, other simply winning chips.

The fundamental problem with these criteria is that they ignore context. Not all years are equal, not all awards are equal. Does Steve Nash winning b2b MVPs in 05 and 06 equal MJ winning b2b in 91 and 92? Simply measuring accolades ignores that every player goes through different competition and different circumstances. So, while people do it, it's a completely lazy way of ranking players.

Advanced stats are a bit iffy because a lot of them (e.g. PER) add subjective elements to them. Nor do they completely take into account defense, as you can't quantify good defense (especially help defense) well.

Winning chips is also lazy and, once again, doesn't take into account competition.

Ultimately, the best way is to actually watch games and determine a player's impact yourself. Failing that, do some research into the goddamn era, the player's achievements relative to what he was working with and what he produced. Simply looking at rings leads to the conclusion that Russell is almost 6 times as great as Wilt - obviously nonsense.


Pippen for example, is a difficult player to rank, because stat heads or people who didn't see him play could easily dismiss him as being not that impressive if only studying his PER or FG% in the Playoffs. People who watched the game back then though, KNEW his overall impact in all facets of the game. Kids will now look at Pippen's box score from Game 1 of the 1998 ECF vs the Pacers, and think he had a terrible game (he scored 4 pts, 1-9 from the floor), but he in fact dominated that game with his defense on Mark Jackson. This is why he was a top 25 of all time in my book, but others could drop him as low as 40. See what I'm getting at here?

I agree with this, but I don't see how this is a rebuttal to my point. I was initally responding to a post that listed cherry picked accolades in favour of Kobe... and it would seem that you should have a problem with it too.


Now, I'm very curious how you would rank Kobe's prime all time? His physical and statistical prime was probably from 06-07 but in terms you success you have to point to 08-10. Altogether, this 5 year period was easily worthy of top 10 peak status of all time IMO.

MJ, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Lebron, Bird, Duncan, Russell and Magic all have/had more impactful primes than Kobe did. Overall, they were able to do more things taking into account both sides.

Kobe is a brilliant player, don't get me wrong. He is a great scorer and a man defender, and he was unfortunate to be stuck on mediocre teams for a couple of years in his prime.

I don't think he had as much impact as Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Duncan and Russell because they are big men - they (with the exception of Russell, whose deficiencies were offset with GOAT defense) could score in the 25-30+ range in their primes on higher efficiency. Not to mention they could rebound the ball in double digits and protect the rim at a more impactful level.

Bird and LeBron have a better overall game than Kobe. Better passers and rebounders. Bird isn't as good a man defender, but he was a great defender. While they didn't score at such a high volume, they were more efficient.

MJ is basically a better version of Kobe - no arguments here.

You bring up Magic, which is interesting, because I don't rate Magic as highly as many others. However, Magic was a superior overall offensive player in his peak - he could score the ball when required, was a much much better facilitator and better rebounder. Not to mention that he understood the game so well and was perfect in setting up an offense. I'm not taking a jab at Kobe's bball IQ, but his shot selection is sometimes atrocious, which hits his efficiency levels. Kobe is a better defender, but overall I feel like Magic is just better.


They both won two chips in this period, got MVP's, were putting up stupendous numbers etc while they were either considered the best or 2nd best player in the league (Kobe arguably second to Lebron in 09/10, Magic 2nd to Bird in 86, MJ in 90/91).

Now, this is the problem with ranking accolades - look at the difference in competition. Magic was up against peak Bird and peak MJ at both sides (arguably the two greatest peaks of all time). Kobe was up against a LeBron that hadn't even reached his peak yet.

And who else was Magic up against for best player in his prime period? You had MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, DRob, Isiah all approaching their primes and peaks, I'm sure among others. Kareem, Moses, Dr J and Bird all there for his first few years in the league.

Kobe had Duncan, Shaq, Tmac, AI and Garnett etc for the 00-05 period. Shaq and Duncan began to decline afterwards, Garnett was stuck on a shitty team until 08. Then Kobe did a good job with Gasol in that 08-10 period but his best competition was an aging Boston side. LeBron was still stuck on the Cavs. They faced Dwight Howard led Orlando in 09 for heavens sake after Garnett got injured. The competition just isn't the same...


Top nine player of all time.. no greatness though:biggums:

You realize how big an honor it was to to be named to top 50 all time when they did it a while back.. and you think top ten isnt even great.

You misunderstood my point. I meant that the criteria of longevity is not my definition of greatness, not that Kobe himself isn't great.

Of course Kobe is one of the greatest players of all time, particularly if he's in that top 10 range. He is really really really great.

[Unbiased_one]

:oldlol:

Who buys this bs? Kobe was arguably better against SAS, but against Portland and Sacramento, kobe was better overall?

In the finals, it was no contest obviously

It's absolutely LUDICROUS to suggest that Kobe was the best player for the Lakers in 01 - at best, you could make an argument that he was the 1b. But Shaq was the best player, he was the alpha, and he was the biggest reason they ultimately won those playoffs. To suggest otherwise is blind fanboyism.



You can think whatever, but to then use all first team, all defensive teams and freaking all star appearances is frankly hypocrisy and doesn't make sense. Even FMVP doesn't capture the full extent of impact as I've previous said. All it is is blatant cherry picking on the side of Kobe fans to prop him up.



Perhaps if you stop straw manning my argument, you will see that I never said longevity DOESN'T matter. I said that for Kobe to be top 5, we will have to base it on longevity and discount other factors, such as overall impact on a game or prime/peak performance.



Kareem was also a lot more dominant in his prime and peak years (unfortunately was surrounded by rubbish for close to a decade), more dominant offensively and defensively, which is a bigger reason why he's higher on my GOAT list.



In terms of best player in the league, I don't see how you can make a case for him being best player for more than 3 years:

97 - MJ
98 - MJ
99 - Shaq
00 - Shaq
01 - Shaq
02 - Shaq
03 - Duncan
04 - Garnett
05 - Duncan
06 - Kobe
07 - Kobe
08 - Kobe
09 - LeBron
10 - LeBron
11 - LeBron
12 - LeBron
13 - LeBron

And, yes, I agree that his longevity is top 5, but that doesn't mean that's what we should rank everything on.

Overall, if we take both sides of the court into account, MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Duncan and LeBron have more impact on a game in their prime and peak years. I could probably name others, but Kobe's absolute best doesn't compare IMO.



Not my definition of greatness, sorry. Kobe is in the #9-11 range for me if I look at just how good and impactful he was/is.

Also re shaq...Kobe was putting up first option numbers in 01, but this is mainly because teams were stacking the post to stop shaq, forcing the lakers to shoot from outside.

Do you seriously think there's an argument that Kobe was better than dirk in 07? :lol

[K Xerxes]

Also re shaq...Kobe was putting up first option numbers in 01, but this is mainly because teams were stacking the post to stop shaq, forcing the lakers to shoot from outside.

Do you seriously think there's an argument that Kobe was better than dirk in 07? :lol

Uh, yes, sure there is. Kobe was surrounded by scrubs and lost to Phoenix in the first round, still putting up peak Kobe performances. Only Lamar Odom was any help. Dirk had the better regular season team-wise, but we all know what happened in the first round...

As an overall player, Kobe was still the best IMO.