Ive been watching hoops since '79, and "EarnedNotGiven" is one of the biggest crocks

[unbreakable]

"Earned not Given" is one of the biggest crocks Ive ever witnessed in professional sports.

If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland he could say that.. instead he went to one of the most stacked teams of all time (and easily the most stacked team of the modern era.. EASILY)

:facepalm

[Fudge]

Agreed.

[thabisyo]

"Earned not Given" is one of the biggest crocks Ive ever witnessed in professional sports.

If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland he could say that.. instead he went to one of the most stacked teams of all time (and easily the most stacked team of the modern era.. EASILY)

:facepalm

are we going to do this stupid discussion every time you get bored?

[Straight_Ballin]

"Earned not Given" is one of the biggest crocks Ive ever witnessed in professional sports.

If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland he could say that.. instead he went to one of the most stacked teams of all time (and easily the most stacked team of the modern era.. EASILY)

:facepalm

If he was good enough, he would have won in Cleveland. Others have gone farther with less than he had.

[Kuma]

If he was good enough, he would have won in Cleveland. Others have gone farther with less than he had.

Give at least two examples.

[HEAT111]

It's not his fault that the media decided to underline those stories and the marketing campaign went on with that hook. Obviously, it'd have been lenient advertisement if he won in Cleveland but I'd blame the media for that EarnednotGiven.

[LA Lakers]

If you've been watching hoops since '79 shouldn't you just stop and appreciate this once in a generation player? Only a few guys since you've been watching the game have been as transcendent of a player as Lebron James. Remember how stacked Birds Celtics were? He had Bill Walton coming off the bench! Does that take away from Larry Bird? How about Jodans Bulls? He had guys like Kukoc coming off the bench! Do we look at Jordan differently? Isiah had Rodman and that mother****er Laimbeer! I hate the Heat too. But respect game when you see it.

[LA Lakers]

I'd also like to know who took a team more limited than those Cavs teams further than Lebron did? J Kidd Nets maybe? Nope. No one was stopping us that year. Patrick Ewing almost won a championship with John Starks! haha. That's pretty crazy to think.

[sportjames23]

If you've been watching hoops since '79 shouldn't you just stop and appreciate this once in a generation player? Only a few guys since you've been watching the game have been as transcendent of a player as Lebron James. Remember how stacked Birds Celtics were? He had Bill Walton coming off the bench! Does that take away from Larry Bird? How about Jodans Bulls? He had guys like Kukoc coming off the bench! Do we look at Jordan differently? Isiah had Rodman and that mother****er Laimbeer! I hate the Heat too. But respect game when you see it.


I could give you Bird and Magic, but MJ and Isaiah started on shit teams and built them into winners.

Lebron could've done the same. He didn't.

[LA Lakers]

Pistons were kicking ass all thru most of the 80s. At least mid to late 80s. They were always a threat. Yeah Isiah went up against Birds Celtics and finally broke thru... East was tough. Jordan had to wait his turn ill give you that. Once Bird broke down he got his chance and finally overcame Detroit.

[LA Lakers]

Although if it weren't for Worthy stepping up huge for us against Detroit Isiah might be ranked much higher all time.

[aj1987]

I could give you Bird and Magic, but MJ and Isaiah started on shit teams and built them into winners.

Lebron could've done the same. He didn't.
The Cav's had 7 years to build around Lebron and the best they could do was a washed up Shaq. The only thing they were trying to do '10 was resign Lebron and add Bosh. That's it. It's not like the Cav's gave Lebron an all time great perimeter defender and an all time great defender and rebounder. Look at what Kobe did in 2007. He was asking for a trade and the Lakers signed Pau.

[alleykat]

What does watching since 79 have to do with anything? Give you relevance?
:oldlol:

[thabisyo]

The Cav's had 7 years to build around Lebron and the best they could do was a washed up Shaq. The only thing they were trying to do '10 was resign Lebron and add Bosh. That's it. It's not like the Cav's gave Lebron an all time great perimeter defender and an all time great defender and rebounder. Look at what Kobe did in 2007. He was asking for a trade and the Lakers signed Pau.

people have short memories here. Kobe was a bitch in 2007

[aj1987]

people have short memories here. Kobe was a bitch in 2007
No he wasn't. He had shitty teammates just like Lebron. Kobe was reason why that team made even made the playoffs.

[poido123]

If you've been watching hoops since '79 shouldn't you just stop and appreciate this once in a generation player? Only a few guys since you've been watching the game have been as transcendent of a player as Lebron James. Remember how stacked Birds Celtics were? He had Bill Walton coming off the bench! Does that take away from Larry Bird? How about Jodans Bulls? He had guys like Kukoc coming off the bench! Do we look at Jordan differently? Isiah had Rodman and that mother****er Laimbeer! I hate the Heat too. But respect game when you see it.


Lebron disappoints me. Whether it's his immature acts off the court, his persistent flopping, or that he doesn't dominate games when he should or turn up for games that really matter. Yes, he did turn up game 7 against Spurs, but easily could of missed that opportunity.

Maybe alot of it is to do with being spoilt watching champions like Jordan, Shaq, Kobe and others, but yeah Lebron lost me as a fan when he abandoned the Cavs and did everything easier from then on. Just wasn't a move of someone I'd consider to be an alltime great..

[Blue&Orange]

Top of my head...

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check


I know i'm missing more... yep earned not given :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

Top of my head...

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check


I know i'm missing more... yep earned not given :oldlol:


You really have a sad, pathetic life. LeBron is greater than the Knicks franchise. It sucks that your franchise player has a terrible record, and terrible FG% in the playoffs.

[sportjames23]

Pistons were kicking ass all thru most of the 80s. At least mid to late 80s. They were always a threat. Yeah Isiah went up against Birds Celtics and finally broke thru... East was tough. Jordan had to wait his turn ill give you that. Once Bird broke down he got his chance and finally overcame Detroit.


No, the Pistons didn't become a threat until 1987.

[Horde of Temujin]

I could give you Bird and Magic, but MJ and Isaiah started on shit teams and built them into winners.

Lebron could've done the same. He didn't.

They had competent GM's. The Clev. organization has itself to blame for losing Lebron.

Would you rather him stay and rot away on a bad team and then retire early rather than join another team like Barry Sanders?

[russwest0]

5 star post OP.

Well done

[Nash]

Top of my head...

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check


I know i'm missing more... yep earned not given :oldlol:
So after 2 championships, 2 FMVP's and a historically great season, we're still at the same BS that we were 2 years ago when the word was "but no rings!"?

[Mr. Jabbar]

Agreed. Its always intriguing to think WHY ON EARTH did he feel the need to use that slogan, insecurity much? He basically confessed it was not earned but given with that.

Given like no other.

[Mr. Jabbar]

You really have a sad, pathetic life. LeBron is greater than the Knicks franchise. It sucks that your franchise player has a terrible record, and terrible FG% in the playoffs.

given

[#number6ix#]

Nike came up with the slogan not lebron... He wore the shirt because that's what nike told him to wear and market

[russwest0]

>Handed to him in 2011 with the Refs made sure Heat got past Boston
>That led to Ray Allen signing with Miami, which led to the game winning shot

>Given, Not Earned

[#number6ix#]

Down 10 to start the 4th quarter in game 6-check

Scores 16 points in 4th quarter- check

Brings team back-check

Hits clutch three with 20secs left-check

Triple double- check

Haters mad and jealous- check

[retaxis]

The 08 big 3 change the dynamics of the game and winning for the east

[ILLsmak]

So after 2 championships, 2 FMVP's and a historically great season, we're still at the same BS that we were 2 years ago when the word was "but no rings!"?

Everyone knew Bron was gonna get rings. That's why we were disappointed. He put himself in a situation where nobody of his talent could fail to win a ring. We wanted to see him win by himself because we thought he was capable.

So, nothing has changed. Just like people say Bron is better now. No, he was better in 09. It goes to show many things. How stats can change in an ideal situation and how rings change how a player is perceived.

It should help us look at players who we said were ALL CHOKING TEAM and realize that if a similar thing had happened to them, they would be regarded as better than they are.

-Smak

[DJ Leon Smith]

The Cav's had 7 years to build around Lebron and the best they could do was a washed up Shaq. The only thing they were trying to do '10 was resign Lebron and add Bosh. That's it. It's not like the Cav's gave Lebron an all time great perimeter defender and an all time great defender and rebounder. Look at what Kobe did in 2007. He was asking for a trade and the Lakers signed Pau.

No one was going to Cleveland for the last two years of his contract when he wouldn't commit. And a lot of the moves that LeBron lobbied for are the ones that management gets crucified for making (ie. paying Larry Hughes a billion dollars).

If LeBron was more of an alpha asshole like Kobe or even Paul Pierce (who told Celtics management to make the team better or look at trading him - they then went and got KG and Jesus), the Cavs would probably have two rings by now. Hell, LeBron is at the level where you could put him on almost any team and they'll be contenders, if he marinated with that Cavs team for another year or so they most probably win a couple of titles.

Except he's left the door open for people to knock his achievements down a couple of levels from now until the end of time by leaving for Miami (this is without taking into account "it's going to be easy", the biggest PPG drop-off from regular season to NBA Finals, etc).

[Rake2204]

Everyone knew Bron was gonna get rings. That's why we were disappointed. He put himself in a situation where nobody of his talent could fail to win a ring. We wanted to see him win by himself because we thought he was capable.

So, nothing has changed. Just like people say Bron is better now. No, he was better in 09. It goes to show many things. How stats can change in an ideal situation and how rings change how a player is perceived.

-SmakI think that's a big part of it for me, maybe the biggest part. I knew what I was seeing the minute he came to the league in '03. He was the most talented, skilled, and unique player I'd ever witnessed. I didn't want to watch him win a ring all by himself per se, but I did think it was ridiculous overkill to create a random superteam. It took away all the fun and joy of viewing his talent.

I don't hate LeBron and I certainly acknowledge how great he is as a basketball player, but I admit the Heat thing has been a disappointment to me as a fan. Many people say the game of basketball is all about winning. That isn't necessarily the case for me. I had a lot more fun watching James build things up himself and turning all those around him into the best players they could be, all the while trudging through the depths and attempting to take down the evil empires by his own means. To just join a team full of superstars and perfect role players who even while playing at 50% capacity are still great... it's a big let down.

Overall, I've always felt it to be unfortunate that great basketball players seem to be judged by championship rings when there is so clearly much, much more to a championship than a star being great. I've found the recent post-championship platforms and sudden acknowledgements of LeBron's greatness to be silly in many instances, as if to suggest he wasn't incredible before being the member of championship winning teams.

As a fan of the game, and a fan of his, I would have just preferred to see him play on a team that wasn't created to be a sort of NBA Dream Team. It was too much. Great for Heat fans (and more power to 'em) but disappointing and disheartening to me. I think I would have been cool with him winning under a lot of circumstances (not just improbably leading a terrible team to the top), but winning after successfully stacking all the odds in one's own favor - I've found that quite unbecoming.

[m00qi]

I think that's a big part of it for me, maybe the biggest part. I knew what I was seeing the minute he came to the league in '03. He was the most talented, skilled, and unique player I'd ever witnessed. I didn't want to watch him win a ring all by himself per se, but I did think it was ridiculous overkill to create a random superteam. It took away all the fun and joy of viewing his talent.

I don't hate LeBron and I certainly acknowledge how great he is as a basketball player, but I admit the Heat thing has been a disappointment to me as a fan. Many people say the game of basketball is all about winning. That isn't necessarily the case for me. I had a lot more fun watching James build things up himself and turning all those around him into the best players they could be, all the while trudging through the depths and attempting to take down the evil empires by his own means. To just join a team full of superstars and perfect role players who even while playing at 50% capacity are still great... it's a big let down.

Overall, I've always felt it to be unfortunate that great basketball players seem to be judged by championship rings when there is so clearly much, much more to a championship than a star being great. I've found the recent post-championship platforms and sudden acknowledgements of LeBron's greatness to be silly in many instances, as if to suggest he wasn't incredible before being the member of championship winning teams.

As a fan of the game, and a fan of his, I would have just preferred to see him play on a team that wasn't created to be a sort of NBA Dream Team. It was too much. Great for Heat fans (and more power to 'em) but disappointing and disheartening to me. I think I would have been cool with him winning under a lot of circumstances (not just improbably leading a terrible team to the top), but winning after successfully stacking all the odds in one's own favor - I've found that quite unbecoming.


Excellent post :applause:

[nathanjizzle]

people wear statements about themselves that they want to be true, but most likely are not. like if someone calls themself a "boss" they most likely are not one.

if lebron has to wear a shirt that says he earned his championships, then he knows in the back of his mind he didnt earn it in the best possible way (which would be winning one in Cleveland).

[DJ Leon Smith]

Many people say the game of basketball is all about winning.

I see a lot of people quote this line of reasoning when defending what LeBron did (I know you're not using it in this context) and they're 100 percent wrong. Basketball/sport is about COMPETING, and winning is just a by-product of that.

It's why every basketball fan should have taken it as a slap in the face when LeBron went to Miami and said "it's going to be easy".

[jlip]

You've been watching since '79, and this is the most original thread you could come up with?

[Knoe Itawl]

Everyone knew Bron was gonna get rings. That's why we were disappointed. He put himself in a situation where nobody of his talent could fail to win a ring. We wanted to see him win by himself because we thought he was capable.

So, nothing has changed. Just like people say Bron is better now. No, he was better in 09. It goes to show many things. How stats can change in an ideal situation and how rings change how a player is perceived.

It should help us look at players who we said were ALL CHOKING TEAM and realize that if a similar thing had happened to them, they would be regarded as better than they are.

-Smak

God this is such nonsense. It's like people have latched on to this narrative about Lebron, and facts and reality be damned.

NO ONE has won "by themselves". Not Bird, Not Jabbar, Not Jordan, Not Magic, Not Kobe. And NO ONE has won with a Mo Williams calibre player as their second best player.

Further, Lebron legit carried Miami much of the time to these past two titles. Of course he had help (just like Jordan when his team came back against Portland with him on the bench in the key stretch of the game), but Wade and Bosh (the two players that allegedly make the Heat so stacked) were shells of themselves a LOT of the time (Bosh missed several series from injury last year) and Wade has been injured much of the last two post seasons.

The only difference between Magic, Bird and Bron is that Lebron made his own luck because he was going nowhere on Cleveland after 7 seasons, whereas Magic and Bird had the good fortune of landing on great teams.

[Solefade]

Uhm did you not see that letter in COMIC SANS from Dan Gilbert after Bron left? Pretty much sums up how shitty that organization is, NO ONE was gonna go to Cleveland.

The Cavs are being ran by a 51 year old kid.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think that's a big part of it for me, maybe the biggest part. I knew what I was seeing the minute he came to the league in '03. He was the most talented, skilled, and unique player I'd ever witnessed. I didn't want to watch him win a ring all by himself per se, but I did think it was ridiculous overkill to create a random superteam. It took away all the fun and joy of viewing his talent.

I don't hate LeBron and I certainly acknowledge how great he is as a basketball player, but I admit the Heat thing has been a disappointment to me as a fan. Many people say the game of basketball is all about winning. That isn't necessarily the case for me. I had a lot more fun watching James build things up himself and turning all those around him into the best players they could be, all the while trudging through the depths and attempting to take down the evil empires by his own means. To just join a team full of superstars and perfect role players who even while playing at 50% capacity are still great... it's a big let down.

Overall, I've always felt it to be unfortunate that great basketball players seem to be judged by championship rings when there is so clearly much, much more to a championship than a star being great. I've found the recent post-championship platforms and sudden acknowledgements of LeBron's greatness to be silly in many instances, as if to suggest he wasn't incredible before being the member of championship winning teams.

As a fan of the game, and a fan of his, I would have just preferred to see him play on a team that wasn't created to be a sort of NBA Dream Team. It was too much. Great for Heat fans (and more power to 'em) but disappointing and disheartening to me. I think I would have been cool with him winning under a lot of circumstances (not just improbably leading a terrible team to the top), but winning after successfully stacking all the odds in one's own favor - I've found that quite unbecoming.
:applause:


whereas Magic and Bird had the good fortune of landing on great teams.
Good fortune? Magic manipulated his way to get drafted by the Lakers. He too was an entitled coward.

[Knoe Itawl]

:applause:


Good fortune? Magic manipulated his way to get drafted by the Lakers. He too was an entitled coward.

At least you're consistant :oldlol:

You have some people that profer this self righteous "stay with the team" attitude (mostly just to make themselves feel superior) and those that see reality. If Bron had tried to force a trade after like 2 years in Cleveland, then yeah I wouldn't respect that. However, he gave them SEVEN years. He didn't have the good fortune of Kobe to have quality teammates plunked on his lap every few years and there was no hope of Cleveland building a TRUE contender anytime soon so he did what he had the righ to do - look elsewhere. I get not liking Bron because you don't like his personality, maybe his game whatever. I even get thinking The Decision made him look like a douche. But criticizing him for the move to Miami - KNOWING the circumstances and KNOWING the teams other greats were blessed with through good fortune and KNOWING Bron gave Cleveland 7 years, etc. is just garbage that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Further, since he's been on the Heat he has been without question the MVP, has carried that team more often than vice versa and the two cogs that supposedly make them so ridiculousy stacked have been MIA in MIA for long stretches yet he's still brought them over the hump.

He's certainly earned everything he's gotten in Miami, and then some.

[SamuraiSWISH]

there was no hope of Cleveland building a TRUE contender anytime soon
Bull shit, Knoe.

They were contenders in 2009 and 2010. No matter how you cut it, both of those teams won 60+ games in back to back seasons.

He quit on the team in a winnable series, up 2 games to 1, in the middle of a damn series. Who knows what the 2010 Cavs potential is if LeBron didn't mysteriously begin to pout and instead competed the way he did in game 3 for the duration of the series.

He knew he was gone for awhile. He packed his bags and was checked out mentally. He knew he was going to leave, and didn't even give the franchise the courtesy of being honest with them. He acted like a spoiled, entitled child.

He gave up on his teammates, and that franchise. The Celtics were getting older. The Cavs were already contenders. If Bron says "hey, I'm staying, enough with this F/A 2010 bull shit" then I'm sure the Cavs could've brought in just one more final piece to put them over the hump.

And it wouldn't have come at the expense of LeBron's likability, legacy, or public opinion. LeBron could've won as it was in Cleveland. He gave up. That much is obvious. And regardless if Wade or Bosh at varying times have been 75% of what they normally are ... they are still superstars, that Heat team is deep and loaded. At the end of the day, LeBron feeling the pressure, took the path of least resistant to win multiple rings. From a competitive stand point, he stacked the deck.

Don't try to give us a revisionist history of what actually happened. Anyone with a brain, or heart can see LeBron's lack of fortitude and character.

[Knoe Itawl]

As a fan of the game, and a fan of his, I would have just preferred to see him play on a team that wasn't created to be a sort of NBA Dream Team. It was too much. Great for Heat fans (and more power to 'em) but disappointing and disheartening to me. I think I would have been cool with him winning under a lot of circumstances (not just improbably leading a terrible team to the top), but winning after successfully stacking all the odds in one's own favor - I've found that quite unbecoming.

This is a well written post, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I feel it doesn't hold up to critical thinking. You can say all you want that you think it's unfair that players are judged so heavily by titles (which I agree with to a certain extent) however you no damned well that if Bron never won a title, that his career would be looked at as a failure, no matter what else he did. He wasn't going anywhere in Cleveland any time soon. The fact that those teams did as well as they did was the true testament to his greatness. I don't know anyone who really knows ball who felt that they would actually win titles unlss Bron really went true video game - and I'm talking about NBA Jam after "He's heating up"..........

This part about "stacking odds in ones favor" (and honestly no offense because again I do respect your well articulated opinion) is honestly whining to me. If that's the case, fans should complain any time a team is super stacked. It's just not fair! I would've preferred to see Bird win on a team that wasn't so chock full of HOFers. Ditto Magic. I wanted to see Bryant win on his own on a team without the MDE. I wanted KG to stay in Minny and somehow find a way to win there. Sure they likely wouldn't have won, but I'd respect them more. F*ck outta here with that. That's just absurd. Yes, in an ideal scenario, James would've gotten the talent he needed in Cleveland and won with his home state team, but that wasn't the case and he had every right to pursue winning.

Further, this idea that Bosh and Wade automatically made them contenders is overstated. First people whined about it, then they said that the three of them don't mesh, especially Wade and Bron because they're too redundant. Plus the remainder of the squad (the first year at least) was hardly "stacked". To top if off they had the youngest coach in the league, who was inexperienced. This whole thing of being stacked was way overstated. They still had to find a way to make it work. Lebron still had to carry the team when Bosh and Wade were injured/not contributing. He still had to do it the hard way. Ignoring all of that is admitting that you had this narrative from the start and regardless of what actually happened you were goin to stick with it.

[Knoe Itawl]

Bull shit, Knoe.

They were contenders in 2009 and 2010. No matter how you cut it, both of those teams won 60+ games in back to back seasons.

He quit on the team in a winnable series, up 2 games to 1, in the middle of a damn series. Who knows what the 2010 Cavs potential is if LeBron didn't mysteriously begin to pout and instead competed the way he did in game 3 for the duration of the series.

He knew he was gone for awhile. He packed his bags and was checked out mentally. He knew he was going to leave, and didn't even give the franchise the courtesy of being honest with them. He acted like a spoiled, entitled child.

He gave up on his teammates, and that franchise. The Celtics were getting older. The Cavs were already contenders. If Bron says "hey, I'm staying, enough with this F/A 2010 bull shit" then I'm sure the Cavs could've brought in just one more final piece to put them over the hump.

And it wouldn't have come at the expense of LeBron's likability, legacy, or public opinion. LeBron could've won as it was in Cleveland. He gave up. That much is obvious. And regardless if Wade or Bosh at varying times have been 75% of what they normally are ... they are still superstars, that Heat team is deep and loaded. At the end of the day, LeBron feeling the pressure, took the path of least resistant to win multiple rings. From a competitive stand point, he stacked the deck.

Don't try to give us a revisionist history of what actually happened. Anyone with a brain, or heart can see LeBron's lack of fortitude and character.

All of this is bullshyt if you can't show me a player that's won a ship with a Mo Williams quality player as his second best player. That team was extremely flawed and the only reason they got as far as they did was because of Bron's greatness. I never expected any of those squads to win a title.

Not only was Mo the second best player, but he SUCKED in the playoffs as well!

But like I said, cutting through all the BS give me the team that's won a ship with a MO WILLIAMS as the "Scottie Pippen"

:oldlol: :lol :roll: it's absurd.

[Solefade]

Bull shit, Knoe.

They were contenders in 2009 and 2010. No matter how you cut it, both of those teams won 60+ games in back to back seasons.

He quit on the team in a winnable series, up 2 games to 1, in the middle of a damn series. Who knows what the 2010 Cavs potential is if LeBron didn't mysteriously begin to pout and instead competed the way he did in game 3 for the duration of the series.

He knew he was gone for awhile. He packed his bags and was checked out mentally. He knew he was going to leave, and didn't even give the franchise the courtesy of being honest with them. He acted like a spoiled, entitled child.

He gave up on his teammates, and that franchise. The Celtics were getting older. The Cavs were already contenders. If Bron says "hey, I'm staying, enough with this F/A 2010 bull shit" then I'm sure the Cavs could've brought in just one more final piece to put them over the hump.

And it wouldn't have come at the expense of LeBron's likability, legacy, or public opinion. LeBron could've won as it was in Cleveland. He gave up. That much is obvious. And regardless if Wade or Bosh at varying times have been 75% of what they normally are ... they are still superstars, that Heat team is deep and loaded. At the end of the day, LeBron feeling the pressure, took the path of least resistant to win multiple rings. From a competitive stand point, he stacked the deck.

Don't try to give us a revisionist history of what actually happened. Anyone with a brain, or heart can see LeBron's lack of fortitude and character.


Anyone who knows anything about basketball KNEW that Cleveland team was flawed. I mean when you make SVG look like Phil Jackson in terms of X's and O's and you have Mike Brown standing OUTSIDE of the huddle during crucial 4th quarter situations while his assistant coaches/LeBron are drawing on the white board, you know that pretty much confirms that something isn't right with this team.

[rhythmic]

God this is such nonsense. It's like people have latched on to this narrative about Lebron, and facts and reality be damned.

NO ONE has won "by themselves". Not Bird, Not Jabbar, Not Jordan, Not Magic, Not Kobe. And NO ONE has won with a Mo Williams calibre player as their second best player.

Further, Lebron legit carried Miami much of the time to these past two titles. Of course he had help (just like Jordan when his team came back against Portland with him on the bench in the key stretch of the game), but Wade and Bosh (the two players that allegedly make the Heat so stacked) were shells of themselves a LOT of the time (Bosh missed several series from injury last year) and Wade has been injured much of the last two post seasons.

The only difference between Magic, Bird and Bron is that Lebron made his own luck because he was going nowhere on Cleveland after 7 seasons, whereas Magic and Bird had the good fortune of landing on great teams.

Great post. :applause:
LeBron joining Wade (2nd best player at the time) just made him look desperate. If both Wade & James were drafted by Cleveland and won together, I wouldn't care. I guess I'm just question his competitive nature or demeanor more then anything.

Him coming on ESPN for an 1 hour special to announce he's joining two superstars in Miami just made him look like a *****.

Bottom line, it's not about him winning with other talent it's about him blatantly joining his main rival at the time (for best player in the league) in order to ring chase.

Sure other greats had help, but none of them joined forces that looked to everyone like a flat out collusion.

[Knoe Itawl]

Anyone who knows anything about basketball KNEW that Cleveland team was flawed. I mean when you make SVG look like Phil Jackson in terms of X's and O's and you have Mike Brown standing OUTSIDE of the huddle during crucial 4th quarter situations while his assistant coaches/LeBron are drawing on the white board, you know that pretty much confirms that something isn't right with this team.

Thank you. Exactly what I said. Some people may have gotten fooled because Lebron made that team look much much better than they were, but many of us remained skeptical throughout. MO WILLIAMS was their second option. I mean, it doesn't even take a great basketball mind to see that that makes a team suspect. :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Solefade]

Thank you. Exactly what I said. Some people may have gotten fooled because Lebron made that team look much much better than they were, but many of us remained skeptical throughout. MO WILLIAMS was their second option. I mean, it doesn't even take a great basketball mind to see that that makes a team suspect. :oldlol:


LeBron was so good he fooled everyone into thinking Mike Brown was actually a good coach. Even today, I highly doubt he's a better coach than Mike D'Antoni and Mo Williams is a legitimate second option. In 7 years, the best player they could get to play with LeBron was MO ****ING WILLIAMS lol and Dan Gilbert wrote a letter in COMIC SANS promising they'll win a chip before LBJ does but became a bottom feeder for the next 3 years :roll: So LeBron would be more legit today if he was in Cleveland with his 4 MVPs and no rings because it's more "honorable". I think a lot of people are just mad because they knew he was going to surpass their favorite players :confusedshrug:

[SamuraiSWISH]

All of this is bullshyt if you can't show me a player that's won a ship with a Mo Williams quality player as his second best player. That team was extremely flawed and the only reason they got as far as they did was because of Bron's greatness. I never expected any of those squads to win a title.

Not only was Mo the second best player, but he SUCKED in the playoffs as well!

But like I said, cutting through all the BS give me the team that's won a ship with a MO WILLIAMS as the "Scottie Pippen"

:oldlol: :lol :roll: it's absurd.
I didn't expect them to win a title, I expected them to compete for a title. And even with Mo Williams as the #2 guy, in reality it was Delonte West who was their second best player, they were talented enough (especially in a bad eastern conference) to make a stab at it.

Your man crush on LeBron is willingly letting him off the hook too easily. So he had to deal with Mo Williams not performing well in the playoffs, other stars have had to deal with BETTER more capable players than that underperforming in the playoffs as a sidekick. And they didn't bolt on an entire franchise in a hissy fit because of it.

Why does having a playoff underperforming 2nd scorer validate LeBron's urgent need to bolt from Cleveland? At the time he was only 24 / 25 years old. Hell, even now he's still only 28 years old. He's still young. If he would've negated the free agency process, told the franchise he was sticking it out. That guarantee would've made Cleveland a safer bet for free agents to be drawn to ...

Knowing that LeBron was locked in and engaged to stay in Cleveland. They could've got another piece to the puzzle.

You're a coward, Knoe. You're essentially saying that because Mo Williams was LeBron's 2nd best player, it was totally fine for him to torpedo Cleveland's chances in 2010 by not competing to the best of his abilities.

You're soft like wet flowers, just like LeBron then. That I quit, give up attitude. Excusing it because his 2nd best player wasn't some sexy star player. That team had grinders, much like the current Bulls, possibly even more talented. And with SUPER Pippen being a one man army for them, what LeBron brings to the table fit that Cleveland team perfectly. Was the team perfect? No. I never claimed it to be, but it absolutely could compete for titles.

We're all mad because LeBron's capabilities are so much more.

He didn't even go down fighting for that club on some heroic type shit. The way he went out swinging in 2009. He caved. Pressure busted his pipes, and he ran down to Miami for help.

As for Wade and Bosh's production the past two seasons. Don't you think LeBron's style of play alters that a little? We've known for awhile now Wade and LeBron's half court offensive games are redundant. Wade was the mature one who took a willing back seat to prop LeBron up.

This is the facts, and the entire context has to be considered. Stop trying to gift wrap this turd of a situation LeBron put himself in ... Nike was ashamed of it, that's why they made this insecure ass t-shirt "Earned not Given"

[Knoe Itawl]

I didn't expect them to win a title, I expected them to compete for a title. And even with Mo Williams as the #2 guy, in reality it was Delonte West who was their second best player, they were talented enough (especially in a bad eastern conference) to make a stab at it.

Your man crush on LeBron is willingly letting him off the hook too easily. So he had to deal with Mo Williams not performing well in the playoffs, other stars have had to deal with BETTER more capable players than that underperforming in the playoffs as a sidekick. And they didn't bolt on an entire franchise in a hissy fit because of it.

Why does having a playoff underperforming 2nd scorer validate LeBron's urgent need to bolt from Cleveland? At the time he was only 24 / 25 years old. Hell, even now he's still only 28 years old. He's still young. If he would've negated the free agency process, told the franchise he was sticking it out. That guarantee would've made Cleveland a safer bet for free agents to be drawn to ...

Knowing that LeBron was locked in and engaged to stay in Cleveland. They could've got another piece to the puzzle.

You're a coward, Knoe. You're essentially saying that because Mo Williams was LeBron's 2nd best player, it was totally fine for him to torpedo Cleveland's chances in 2010 by not competing to the best of his abilities.

You're soft like wet flowers, just like LeBron then. That I quit, give up attitude. Excusing it because his 2nd best player wasn't some sexy star player. That team had grinders, much like the current Bulls, possibly even more talented. And with SUPER Pippen being a one man army for them, what LeBron brings to the table fit that Cleveland team perfectly. Was the team perfect? No. I never claimed it to be, but it absolutely could compete for titles.

We're all mad because LeBron's capabilities are so much more.

He didn't even go down fighting for that club on some heroic type shit. The way he went out swinging in 2009. He caved. Pressure busted his pipes, and he ran down to Miami for help.

As for Wade and Bosh's production the past two seasons. Don't you think LeBron's style of play alters that a little? We've known for awhile now Wade and LeBron's half court offensive games are redundant. Wade was the mature one who took a willing back seat to prop LeBron up.

This is the facts, and the entire context has to be considered. Stop trying to gift wrap this turd of a situation LeBron put himself in ... Nike was ashamed of it, that's why they made this insecure ass t-shirt "Earned not Given"

:oldlol: when did I say Bron didn't have any flaws? He deserved to be criticized for how he went out with Boston, I won't take anything away from that. However, what I was talking about wasn't about whether he deserved criticism or not. It was about whether that squad was realistically a title contender, of which they most certainly were not. His greatness just fooled everyone into thinking they were. Also, the shirt is stupid and insecure, I'll agree with that. However, he DID earn everything he got in Miami.

As far as leaving Cleveland, he had given them SEVEN years. LOL He had every right, like free agents have been doing since there were free agents, to leave for a better situation. He obviously felt that the team was not going to get exponentially better and felt his "talents" would be better utilized elsewhere. The funny thing is that aside from the better chance of winning and all that, I've always asked myself this: "hmm, I have a chance to play in Miami with 2 of my good friends in South Beach, or stay in depressing ass Cleveland" :oldlol: Sheeeet, I would've left on that alone. And I bet the vast majority of people who criticize Bron for it would have as well. That's the funniest thing.

and miss me with the personal attacks junior. I realize that you have a hard on for me from all of these years, but I don't care enough or remember enough about you to really remember why that is. Probably something to do with Kobe, that's usually the case with people here. :oldlol:

[Rake2204]

This is a well written post, and you're entitled to your opinion, but I feel it doesn't hold up to critical thinking. You can say all you want that you think it's unfair that players are judged so heavily by titles (which I agree with to a certain extent) however you no damned well that if Bron never won a title, that his career would be looked at as a failure, no matter what else he did. He wasn't going anywhere in Cleveland any time soon. The fact that those teams did as well as they did was the true testament to his greatness. I don't know anyone who really knows ball who felt that they would actually win titles unlss Bron really went true video game - and I'm talking about NBA Jam after "He's heating up"..........I appreciate the compliment, but we'll likely just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I personally feel team basketball championships are a truly shortsighted means with which to judge an individual and the zeal with which others beg to differ does not often affect my opinion unless it's supported with a sense of logic.

With that in mind, I can only control what I feel, not what others do, and I'm confident believing I would have never found LeBron James to be a failure. His abilities are absolutely legendary. His affect on the teammates surrounding him is nearly unprecedented. All not winning a championship would tell me is his team never achieved ultimate success, just like 98% of all teams that have ever competed in NBA history. Regardless, his impact is undeniable. Greatness to me can also be joining a 17 win team and playing a huge role doubling that output immediately. I don't believe being good at a team sport is simply a matter of "Did your team win or did they not win".

The suggestion that LeBron James wasn't going anywhere in Cleveland (presuming this refers to winning an NBA Championship), it's really something that can't be said. We don't know what would have happened. But was it as bleak as many seem to insinuate? I do not believe so. There's no winning for optimists in this sense because all we have for reference is what happened, and what happened is the Cavaliers did not win a ring.

However, I struggle to come to terms with the idea that a team that nearly won 70 games then came a Mo Williams mid-range J and LeBron triple try away from likely winning the Eastern Conference Finals (after winning their first eight playoff games) was truly going nowhere. Sometimes little things happen that make everything work out. Sometimes they don't. Similar to the Ray Allen shot in this year's finals, maybe if Mo Williams had hit that jumper at the end of game 1, maybe Cleveland continues rolling, takes the conference title and wins a championship. Or maybe they fall to LA. Who knows. But the idea that Cleveland wasn't at times right on the cusp, does not vibe with what I witnessed. It'd be similar to watching Allen's triple rim out this year then spending this entire summer discussing how Miami needs to blow everything up and how LeBron just doesn't have what it takes more times than not.


This part about "stacking odds in ones favor" (and honestly no offense because again I do respect your well articulated opinion) is honestly whining to me. If that's the case, fans should complain any time a team is super stacked. It's just not fair! I would've preferred to see Bird win on a team that wasn't so chock full of HOFers. Ditto Magic. I wanted to see Bryant win on his own on a team without the MDE. I wanted KG to stay in Minny and somehow find a way to win there. Sure they likely wouldn't have won, but I'd respect them more. F*ck outta here with that. That's just absurd. Yes, in an ideal scenario, James would've gotten the talent he needed in Cleveland and won with his home state team, but that wasn't the case and he had every right to pursue winning.Yeah, I feel where you're coming from here. I wasn't trying to say that LeBron's move should be officially declared incorrect. Instead, I was attempting to convey my personal feelings on the situation. I didn't like when Ben Wallace signed with Chicago and for some reason, I felt really, really rotten when LeBron James signed with Miami. It was clearly his right, but I've found no joy in watching him win in Miami. I have difficulty articulating why this is so, but I try to explain it from time to time, as I did above.

I will say, I do think it can be tough to draw precise similarities between one situation and another. LeBron joined a super team in Miami. Karl Malone and Gary Payton joined a super team in LA. Did each move make me feel the same? They did not. Steve Francis refused to play in Vancouver. Did I support that move? I did not. Did it make me feel the same as LeBron's move? It did not.

I think there's just something unique about what LeBron did. I think a lot of it has to do with his basketball skills. As in, we can compare him to KG, Francis, Barkley, Malone - but I think he's above all of those guys. So maybe it wasn't just a star trying to get himself to a better situation, it was the star arbitrarily creating one of the best situations of all-time from scratch.

Again, I have a hard time reasoning it all out, but perhaps I just felt it flew in the face of competition. Like if I were playing high school ball and the best player who's ever come through my conference decided to leave his own team, then encourage a lesser star to leave his team, just to join another star on his own team, while stockpiling the best possible role players in the process, I think there'd be a feeling of, "We already knew you're great, so now we're supposed to adore how you're going to be stampeding over all of us by making your own super team?"


Further, this idea that Bosh and Wade automatically made them contenders is overstated. First people whined about it, then they said that the three of them don't mesh, especially Wade and Bron because they're too redundant. Plus the remainder of the squad (the first year at least) was hardly "stacked". To top if off they had the youngest coach in the league, who was inexperienced. This whole thing of being stacked was way overstated. They still had to find a way to make it work. Lebron still had to carry the team when Bosh and Wade were injured/not contributing. He still had to do it the hard way. Ignoring all of that is admitting that you had this narrative from the start and regardless of what actually happened you were goin to stick with it.Again, just in terms of personal feelings on NBA things, I was impacted as much by what they were apparently trying to do as much as what they may have actually did. And it felt like they were trying to flat out eliminate any possibility of competition from the opponent. We all want to win, but is it by any means possible? If I could have collected McDonald's High School All-Americans to my class B school then rolled to a state title, does it still mean anything in terms of accomplishment?

With LeBron James and company, I just wasn't ready or willing to accept three stars (I viewed Bosh's game in a very positive light at that point, coming off that 24 and 11 year) ceasing to battle against one another, trying to find their way and instead plotting to all come together and dominate, most importantly with one of those stars being one of the two most dominant players I've ever seen in my lifetime (that part's important).

It wasn't Kevin Garnett teaming up with Wade and Bosh. It wasn't Carmelo Anthony. It was the guy who was coming over from a title contending Cavs team that'd nearly won 70 games a year prior. There was a part of me that felt like, "Wait, you made it to the finals as a 22 year old, you've won 60+ in back to back years, you came a couple of missed shots from returning to the Finals in '09 after sweeping the first two rounds, you won 60+ again in '10, had a 2-1 lead on the eventual NBA Finalist Celtics, yet you feel like you have to leave in order to have a chance to win? Does it have to be on a platter?"

I think I felt his Cavs days seemed like the epitome of competing, leading and battling every year to win a title, whereas Miami has increasingly felt like one big, yearly victory parade.

I have no doubt LeBron James has carried the Heat at times. He's one of the top two players I've ever witnessed first hand. That's why it's been a bummer to see him now as the head of a team that's already incredible. What's the fun in that for non-Heat fans? Was it within James' right to make such a move? Yes. But do I enjoy it and/or support it? Again, I respectfully do not.

[2LeTTeRS]

The way some of you look at players baffles me. You pretend as if players are indebted to teams even after satisfying all contractual obligations, but don't even bat an eye when teams dump players. Makes no sense to me.

The way I see it is its a 2way street -- either both sides should be expected to show loyalty, or neither side should.

[HomieWeMajor]

I always wear this shirt when I'm collecting my welfare check

[jlip]

The way some of you look at players baffles me. You pretend as if players are indebted to teams even after satisfying all contractual obligations, but don't even bat an eye when teams dump players. Makes no sense to me.

The way I see it is its a 2way street -- either both sides should be expected to show loyalty, or neither side should.

This
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[aj1987]

No one was going to Cleveland for the last two years of his contract when he wouldn't commit. And a lot of the moves that LeBron lobbied for are the ones that management gets crucified for making (ie. paying Larry Hughes a billion dollars).
He might've committed if the Cav's were a bit more proactive hunting for big name free agents. Also, wasn't Hughes signed in 2005? I don't remember Lebron having anything to do with the signing.


Hell, LeBron is at the level where you could put him on almost any team and they'll be contenders, if he marinated with that Cavs team for another year or so they most probably win a couple of titles.
Lebron is good, but he's not that good. If Lebron resigned with the Cav's that year, he literally had no one to compliment him. The Cav's were going all out to get Bosh and he didn't want to go to Cleveland (who does, anyway).


Except he's left the door open for people to knock his achievements down a couple of levels from now until the end of time by leaving for Miami (this is without taking into account "it's going to be easy", the biggest PPG drop-off from regular season to NBA Finals, etc).
Lebron averaged 26+ in the RS (2013) and 25+ in the Finals. That's just a 1 point differential. In 2012, he averaged 1 point MORE in the Finals, than the RS.

[NumberSix]

I could give you Bird and Magic, but MJ and Isaiah started on shit teams and built them into winners.

Lebron could've done the same. He didn't.
Oh get the fcuk outta here. MJ didn't build shit. Jerry Krause did. And for those of us old enough to remember, Jordan bitched and threw a hissy fit about every move Jerry made along the way. If it was up to Jordan, he would have spent his entire career playing with Charles Oakley and his brother Larry.

[PJR]

The way some of you look at players baffles me. You pretend as if players are indebted to teams even after satisfying all contractual obligations, but don't even bat an eye when teams dump players. Makes no sense to me.

The way I see it is its a 2way street -- either both sides should be expected to show loyalty, or neither side should.


YES! It truly is mind boggling how some of these dudes think.



Oh get the fcuk outta here. MJ didn't build shit. Jerry Krause did. And for those of us old enough to remember, Jordan bitched and threw a hissy fit about every move Jerry made along the way. If it was up to Jordan, he would have spent his entire career playing with Charles Oakley and his brother Larry.

:oldlol: If it was up to Jordan, Joe Wolf would've been his second banana, not Scottie Pippen.

Fortunately for the Bulls, and Michael himself, Jerry Krause hardly ever listened to Jordan.

[FLDFSU]

Everyone knew Bron was gonna get rings. That's why we were disappointed. He put himself in a situation where nobody of his talent could fail to win a ring. We wanted to see him win by himself because we thought he was capable.

So, nothing has changed. Just like people say Bron is better now. No, he was better in 09. It goes to show many things. How stats can change in an ideal situation and how rings change how a player is perceived.

It should help us look at players who we said were ALL CHOKING TEAM and realize that if a similar thing had happened to them, they would be regarded as better than they are.

-Smak

You think LeBron is capable of going through 3 HOF in Boston by himself? Who is he, God?

[sportjames23]

Oh get the fcuk outta here. MJ didn't build shit. Jerry Krause did. And for those of us old enough to remember, Jordan bitched and threw a hissy fit about every move Jerry made along the way. If it was up to Jordan, he would have spent his entire career playing with Charles Oakley and his brother Larry.


Eat a plate of *****.

The team was built around MJ, plain and simple. No MJ, no rings. Team was crap when he got there. He helped make Pippen into the player he became (Pip admits this).

[Myth]

"Earned not Given" is one of the biggest crocks Ive ever witnessed in professional sports.

If LBJ had stayed in Cleveland he could say that.. instead he went to one of the most stacked teams of all time (and easily the most stacked team of the modern era.. EASILY)

:facepalm

You list your birthday as July 15, 1984 yet say you have watched since '79. Why do people insist on lying about something so stupid? You could have made your point without making yourself a lying douchebag.

[derb2k2]

AHHAHAHA


salty-ass n*ggaz in here lmaooooooooo:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[DukeDelonte13]

He did take the easy way out any way you slice it.

People wanna act like its 100% Ferry/Paxson's fault they didn't win a ring 0% Lebron's fault. :rolleyes: I think even Lebron himself owns up to those losses, yet so many of his nut huggers refuse to blame him one iota.

In reality, Cleveland tried every offseason and every trade deadline to get Lebron a dominant bigman to pair him with but could never get a deal done.

However that doesn't mean that he had jack sh*t around him; the 09 and 10 cavs squads were very good and very deep. If Mo played half as good as he did during the reg season we'd all be singing a different tune. If Lebron didn't act like a pouty b*tch during the 10 playoff run things would be different too.

Lebron grew and matured a lot over the years since the summer of 2010. He got better mentally, physically; his bball IQ improved, etc., He worked hard to get those rings and nobody is doubting that but it doesn't and will never take away from the fact he had to join a team with two superstars to get it done.

[Solefade]

You list your birthday as July 15, 1984 yet say you have watched since '79. Why do people insist on lying about something so stupid? You could have made your point without making yourself a lying douchebag.


Hahaha

[FLDFSU]

So, if LeBron was still out playing the team around him in ever major statistical category all while "quitting" or "checking out" or "choking" what does that say about the cast around him? How good of a team could you possibly have when one player isn't even engaged yet is still leading your team in all the important metrics?

[jlip]

Eat a plate of *****.

The team was built around MJ, plain and simple. No MJ, no rings. Team was crap when he got there. He helped make Pippen into the player he became (Pip admits this).

Just stop. Of course, no MJ no rings. That's nothing special. You take any best player on his team off and 9 times out of 10 they win no rings.

And Yes, MJ did help Pippen. That's basically what veterans do for younger players. That's nothing special either.

[Dengness9]

Everyone knew Bron was gonna get rings. That's why we were disappointed. He put himself in a situation where nobody of his talent could fail to win a ring. We wanted to see him win by himself because we thought he was capable.

So, nothing has changed. Just like people say Bron is better now. No, he was better in 09. It goes to show many things. How stats can change in an ideal situation and how rings change how a player is perceived.

It should help us look at players who we said were ALL CHOKING TEAM and realize that if a similar thing had happened to them, they would be regarded as better than they are.

-Smak


:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[longtime lurker]

He did take the easy way out any way you slice it.

People wanna act like its 100% Ferry/Paxson's fault they didn't win a ring 0% Lebron's fault. :rolleyes: I think even Lebron himself owns up to those losses, yet so many of his nut huggers refuse to blame him one iota.

In reality, Cleveland tried every offseason and every trade deadline to get Lebron a dominant bigman to pair him with but could never get a deal done.

However that doesn't mean that he had jack sh*t around him; the 09 and 10 cavs squads were very good and very deep. If Mo played half as good as he did during the reg season we'd all be singing a different tune. If Lebron didn't act like a pouty b*tch during the 10 playoff run things would be different too.

Lebron grew and matured a lot over the years since the summer of 2010. He got better mentally, physically; his bball IQ improved, etc., He worked hard to get those rings and nobody is doubting that but it doesn't and will never take away from the fact he had to join a team with two superstars to get it done.

:applause: Thank you. All the Miami fans and Lebron stans need to STFU because they have no idea what they are talking about. When he joined Wade in Miami it just felt so cheap and like really? Then Bosh joined and it became fvcking laughable. Where's the sense of competitive spirit. A weak East full of injuries and zero competition because they're on your team.

It's funny that guys like Paul Pierce are pissed being traded to the Nets despite the fact that Celtics are rebuilding. Just shows how much staying with your team matters to some of these guys. Winning championships in Cleveland, your home state could have been something truly amazing.

[DaSeba5]

A lot of salty people in this thread. Loyalty is overrated in sports, but even LeBron gave Cleveland a good 7 years. They failed to put anyone great around him. Players like Magic, Bird, and Jordan all had great teams built around him. Cleveland didn't do that, so LeBron did what's best for him. The easy way out? Please.... he did what was best for him. Imagine if he stayed in Cleveland and never won a ring?

[The Iron Fist]

Give at least two examples.
Kobe 09+10.

[Knoe Itawl]

A lot of salty people in this thread. Loyalty is overrated in sports, but even LeBron gave Cleveland a good 7 years. They failed to put anyone great around him. Players like Magic, Bird, and Jordan all had great teams built around him. Cleveland didn't do that, so LeBron did what's best for him. The easy way out? Please.... he did what was best for him. Imagine if he stayed in Cleveland and never won a ring?

Like I said before, I would get it if people disliked Lebron's personality. Disliked the way he plays and disliked The Decision.

Knocking him for making his own luck, instead of hoping and praying his loser market would somehow, someway make it happen for him is just irrational in my opinion.

People have no problem with Magic, Bird's legacy (though they played on stacked teams), no problem with Kobe (though he's been gifted with talent most of his career), Russell, Wilt, etc. however Bron was supposed to just "stick it out" and his playing with all starts is somehow worse than others playing with all stars just because he put it together as opposed to his team doing so.

It makes zero sense and there are 3 types of people who follow this flawed logic:

A. Mindless Lebron haters who will use any excuse to find fault with him.

B. True fans of the game who have a (real, but misguided) sense of "fairness"

C. Casual fans who allow bandwagons to dictate their beliefs.

A and C should be dismissed immediately because their views are worthless. B at least are coming from an honest place.

[Knoe Itawl]

He did take the easy way out any way you slice it.

People wanna act like its 100% Ferry/Paxson's fault they didn't win a ring 0% Lebron's fault. :rolleyes: I think even Lebron himself owns up to those losses, yet so many of his nut huggers refuse to blame him one iota.

If you think it was "easy" to win these past 2 titles in Miami for him then you don't know basketball. And if you thought it was going to be "easy" when he first announced he was going to South Beach then you don't know basketball.

Anytime a team doesn't get it done, part of the blame falls on the star player. No one with any sort of knowldege of basketball holds Bron blameless. That's just hyperbole put forth by people who want to assign more blame to Bron than he should shoulder. The bottom line, however, is that the Cavs were a deeply flawed team who overachieved thankss to Bron not in spite of him. He had monster series during that time and carried a team that few single players in league history could've done better with.


In reality, Cleveland tried every offseason and every trade deadline to get Lebron a dominant bigman to pair him with but could never get a deal done.

Yes, part of why he left.


However that doesn't mean that he had jack sh*t around him; the 09 and 10 cavs squads were very good and very deep. If Mo played half as good as he did during the reg season we'd all be singing a different tune. If Lebron didn't act like a pouty b*tch during the 10 playoff run things would be different too.

Coulda woulda shoulda. If San Antonio had closed out that last 25 seconds, we'd all be singing a different tune. Whether Lebron acted like a "pouty b@tch" during that run or not, HIS TEAM WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN A TITLE. I keep asking people who spout this crap to give me the NBA team who won with Mo Williams as the second best player. Or even Delonte West (lol) as Samurai tried to say. Haven't seen anyone do it yet.


Lebron grew and matured a lot over the years since the summer of 2010. He got better mentally, physically; his bball IQ improved, etc., He worked hard to get those rings and nobody is doubting that but it doesn't and will never take away from the fact he had to join a team with two superstars to get it done.

I've spoken enough about the fallacy of the "he had to join a team with two superstars" nonsense.

[PJR]

Kobe 09+10.

:roll: :roll:

Boy stop.

[Legends66NBA7]

All of this is bullshyt if you can't show me a player that's won a ship with a Mo Williams quality player as his second best player.

Rick Barry 74-75 Warriors won with a rookie Jamaal Wilkes as his second option.

[ILLsmak]

And here lies the great disconnect of this argument.

My opinion (the right one) - If it doesn't matter that the Celtics and Lakers have been able to put together "super teams", through means far more difficult for small market teams to, then it doesn't matter to me if a player decides to make his own destiny by doing the same. Either whine about all of it, or dont whine at all.

The alternave view (false, not logical self righteousness) - Bron's a coward, doesn't like a challenge, blah blah blah because he wasn't going to rot in Cleveland and didn't have the fortunate options KG had, or Kobe's had.

dat right opinion.

It was just unprecedented what happened. It was a good choice because it worked, but the ones of us (the right ones of us?) who are critical thinkers, will always questions.

Personally, I think that Cleveland could have won, and I think that it's obvious Miami is built to win the way role players keep sticking to them. They are like THE SUN just collecting more and more talent because everyone knows that's an easy ring.

LeBron carried them at times; he also shit the bed at times.

I don't think Miami is all-time great stacked due to the big 3, but when they came together, they were planning on it. However, they still had to collect role players.

Miami had the most talent and the best role players when they won, period. Before the big 3 came together, they were a borderline playoff team. Think of it as you want.

This year will be more fun because it seems other teams are shaping up to compete.

I don't think LeBron's titles or MVPs or accomplishments should be devalued to the level where they are lesser than others, but I do think that the prime situation that he had where he could have gained accolades that were worth MORE is over. I mean, one win in Cleveland and it would have been the same situation; he doesn't need Wade and Bosh. Because they were all-nba players when he joined them, he will never escape that shadow.

Even if you don't judge him for that, you have to take it into context.

-Smak

[DJ Leon Smith]

Lebron averaged 26+ in the RS (2013) and 25+ in the Finals. That's just a 1 point differential. In 2012, he averaged 1 point MORE in the Finals, than the RS.

LeBron's PPG in 2011 regular season and Finals. Name it. Then name every other first option's PPG from regular seasons to Finals.

I'm waiting.

Waiting...

Waiting...

Oh what you don't want to provide it? Because LeBron's is the worst in professional basketball history? His stats pre-date the NBA?

OK I'll wait for your excuse.

Waiting...

Waiting...

Waiting...

Hi Jeff, your forum suck.

[aj1987]

LeBron's PPG in 2011 regular season and Finals. Name it. Then name every other first option's PPG from regular seasons to Finals.

I'm waiting.

Waiting...

Waiting...

Oh what you don't want to provide it? Because LeBron's is the worst in professional basketball history? His stats pre-date the NBA?

OK I'll wait for your excuse.

Waiting...

Waiting...

Waiting...

Hi Jeff, your forum suck.
Why the hell are you even bringing up 2011, when I was talking about '12 and '13?
Yes, he did shit the bed in 2011. I never said anything different.
BTW, Wade and Lebron were 1a and 1b in 2011. Yeah, Lebron sucked and lost in the '11 Finals. So what?

[DJ Leon Smith]

Why the hell are you even bringing up 2011, when I was talking about '12 and '13?
Yes, he did shit the bed in 2011. I never said anything different.
BTW, Wade and Lebron were 1a and 1b in 2011. Yeah, Lebron sucked and lost in the '11 Finals. So what?

LeBron historically lost. No one has ever lost worst than him when it comes to regular season PPG compared to NBA Finals PPG.

And he said before the season started "it's going to be easy".

So what?

[aj1987]

LeBron historically lost. No one has ever lost worst than him when it comes to regular season PPG compared to NBA Finals PPG.

And he said before the season started "it's going to be easy".

So what?
Dude won back to back MVP's, Ring's, and FMVP's. Doesn't matter what you think, he's going to end up as one of the game's greatest.

BTW, Lebron didn't lose. The Heat lost. Wade lost, Bosh lost, Haslem lost, etc.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Dude won back to back MVP's, Ring's, and FMVP's. Doesn't matter what you think, he's going to end up as one of the game's greatest.

BTW, Lebron didn't lose. The Heat lost. Wade lost, Bosh lost, Haslem lost, etc.

List Wade's, Bosh's and Haslem's regular season stats compared to their NBA Finals stats.

And then list if they were regarded as a franchise player.

And then list the amount of times they were quoted before the season saying that winning a title would "be easy".

I'm waiting.

Still waiting.

Get back to me at any time.

Still waiting.

Don't worry I'll make some coffee.

Get back to me at any time.

Hi Jeff.

[KNOW1EDGE]

I agree with OP.

I work for Nike, and when I saw those shirts they came out with and that slogan I literally laughed and didn't know if they were being serious or not.

Earned not given? really?

If he woulda stayed with Cleveland and won then yes.

But he left his hometown and teamed up with 2 other superstars and future HOFers. Then added Ray Allen. How is that earned not given? lol

I find it extremely ironic.

[russwest0]

Dude won back to back MVP's, Ring's, and FMVP's. Doesn't matter what you think, he's going to end up as one of the game's greatest.

BTW, Lebron didn't lose. The Heat lost. Wade lost, Bosh lost, Haslem lost, etc.

LMAO. Typical LeBron stans.

"LeBron didn't lose in 2011, the Heat lost."

In 2012 and 2013.

"LEBRON WON. Not even gonna mention Allen/Battier/Miller bailing his bitch ass out by going bezerk from 3pt land. Or Manu Ginobli basically playing for the Heat. Or the refs getting every other teams stars into foul trouble while swallowing the whistles at the end of the games unless it benefits Miami"

[aj1987]

List Wade's, Bosh's and Haslem's regular season stats compared to their NBA Finals stats.

And then list if they were regarded as a franchise player.

And then list the amount of times they were quoted before the season saying that winning a title would "be easy".

Are you trying to say that Wade wasn't a Franchise player in 2011?

What does it matter if Wade scored 40/20/10? The Heat still lost. Wade going ham doesn't matter, because he LOST. I still blame Lebron 'cause he cost Wade and the Heat a ring and an FMVP. He more than made up for it by winning two rings for the Heat.

[PickernRoller]

Top of my head...

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check


I know i'm missing more... yep earned not given :oldlol:

Damn..go easy on them :lol :roll:

[russwest0]

Top of my head...

Takes paycut to make it easy - check
Finds two other superstars willing to take a paycut to be his lapdog - check
The competition left, getting injured left and right - check
Opposition Coaches gifting him wins with head scratching mistakes - check
Plays in one of the the shittiest divisions ever hence getting homecourt - check
Weak defensive rules era - check
No centers era - check
Carried by the refs in 2012 - check
Carried by teammates while sitting on the bench with "cramps" after air balling - check
Faces youngest team ever in the finals - check
Faces oldest team ever in the finals - check
Bail out by Mike Miller, Battier and Ray Allen - check
Being carried by wade while scoring only in garbage time - check


I know i'm missing more... yep earned not given :oldlol:

:lol :lol :lol :lol

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[aj1987]

LMAO. Typical LeBron stans.

"LeBron didn't lose in 2011, the Heat lost."

In 2012 and 2013.

"LEBRON WON. Not even gonna mention Allen/Battier/Miller bailing his bitch ass out by going bezerk from 3pt land. Or Manu Ginobli basically playing for the Heat. Or the refs getting every other teams stars into foul trouble while swallowing the whistles at the end of the games unless it benefits Miami"
How retarded do you have to be to not understand a simple statement. Lebron lost because the Heat lost.
I'm guessing that you have the same IQ as Westbrick, so I'm done.

BTW, I'm a Lebron stan? :roll:

[wakencdukest]

That slogan is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard, along with "check my stats". He probably thinks wearing that shit is cool or something, who knows?

[pauk]

He went to one of the most stacked teams of all time!?
As far as i remember he went to a SCRUB stacked team surrounded around Wade, a team/roster that was bad that either missed the playoffs or lost in 1st round since 2006.... Bosh joining Wade would have perhaps made things a little bit better, but they would have not sniffed the regular season or playoffs success if it wasnt for Lebron.... Lebron put up one of the best peaks in NBA history to get to that success... yes Lebron went away from Cleveland to seek greener pastures, but he was not given anything, he had to work really hard and even harder than he worked in Cleveland to get what he has right now..... hence the term...

You watching hoops since '79 wont make us ignore whatever your agenda is... so what? You wanted Lebron to stay ringless in Cleveland is that it? He sure would have never won a championship with the supporting casts he had after 7 years.... how long can a player of that magnitude stay patient?
Jordan/Kobe for example in his situation would have left long time before that... but they did get their supporting casts handed to them, some early and some later.... Lebron never did and it looked like it was never going to happen either, especially when considering all the teams around him stacking up all-star/superstar teams to combat him *cough* Celtics *cough*..... So is it wrong for Lebron to get something which Jordan/Kobe had MOST of their careers? A supporting cast.... Whats the difference really? Jordan/Kobe got that supporting cast handed to them on a silverplate..... Lebron had to do it himself.....


If he was good enough, he would have won in Cleveland. Others have gone farther with less than he had.

Show me... i beg you... just one example...

[TheMarkMadsen]

Show me... i beg you... just one example...

Dwight Howard 2009.

That's only if you want 1 example.

[pauk]

Dwight Howard 2009.

That's only if you want 1 example.

Really now? If Lebron really had a better supporting cast than Dwight that year then how can you explain Lebron putting up his best playoff series of his career in both consistency, clutch play, productions (he averaged near a 40 point triple double that series, 14 ppg in 4th, hit many clutch shots, including a buzzerbeating gamewinner).......... are you telling me anybody else could have done better.... with that supporting cast.... hence won that series... because... that supporting cast was better than Magic... so he should have won... so its Lebrons fault... Lebron underperformed... they should have won ? Explain?

Did you even watch that series? Did you see why Magic won no matter what Lebron could have ever done (or anybody in NBA history)? Was it because Lebron "underperformed" despite what he did that series.... or was it because Magic were able to expose his supporting cast with massive mismatches....?

Horrible, faulty and wishful example (since there is none really).... try another one... go ahead...

[Legends66NBA7]

Show me... i beg you... just one example...


Really now? If Lebron really had a better supporting cast than Dwight that year then how can you explain Lebron putting up his best playoff series of his career in both consistency, clutch play, productions (he averaged near a 40 point triple double that series, 14 ppg in 4th, hit many clutch shots, including a buzzerbeating gamewinner).......... are you telling me anybody else could have done better.... with that supporting cast.... hence won that series... because... that supporting cast was better than Magic... so he should have won... so its Lebrons fault... Lebron underperformed... they should have won ? Explain?

Did you even watch that series? Did you see why Magic won no matter what Lebron could have ever done (or anybody in NBA history)? Was it because Lebron "underperformed" despite what he did that series.... or was it because Magic were able to expose his supporting cast with massive mismatches....?

Horrible, faulty and wishful example (since there is none really).... try another one... go ahead...

I think he's talking about other superstars and what they worked it. Not LeBron James's play.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think he's talking about other superstars and what they worked with. Not LeBron James's play.

Fixed it for you I think.

But yes this exactly

[Legends66NBA7]

Fixed it for you I think.

But yes this exactly

Yeah, I meant 'with'. Thanks. :cheers:

[NumberSix]

:applause: Thank you. All the Miami fans and Lebron stans need to STFU because they have no idea what they are talking about. When he joined Wade in Miami it just felt so cheap and like really? Then Bosh joined and it became fvcking laughable. Where's the sense of competitive spirit. A weak East full of injuries and zero competition because they're on your team.
Bosh was already there. Hard to take your memories of "how it felt" serious when the way you remember it happening is wrong.

[jlip]

You list your birthday as July 15, 1984 yet say you have watched since '79. Why do people insist on lying about something so stupid? You could have made your point without making yourself a lying douchebag.

:roll: :roll: :roll: