10 years of Wilt Chamberlain or 5 years of George Mikan?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well?

[LAZERUSS]

Well?

Look at the RECORD BOOK.

And don't bring up RINGS, since they are a TEAM award.

That should answer "General Custer's" question.

[LAZERUSS]

RINGS...

How many did MJ win without Pippen?

How many did Kareem win without Magic or Oscar?

How many did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?

How many did Hakeem win when his teammates were outplayed by the opposing team's?

Etc., etc, etc...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Look at the regular season RECORD BOOK.

And don't bring up RINGS, since they are a TEAM award.

That should answer "General Custer's" question.
George "Mr. Basketball" Mikan - 5x World Champion

Wilt "The Stilt" Chamberlain - 2x World Champion

The level of dominance that George displayed during the playoffs was an incredible thing to watch.

[fpliii]

OT: Why doesn't the 48 NBL title count for the Lakers? Same with the Pistons in 44 & 45? I'm not going to compare Mikan to guys after the shotclock was introduced for obvious reasons, but:

NBL Championships: 47, 48
BAA Championships: 49
NBA Championships: 50, 52, 53, 54

is pretty damn impressive. Too bad Bob Kurland opted for AAU, or else it could've been an incredible rivalry.

[Deuce Bigalow]

RINGS...

How many did MJ win without Pippen?
You mean when MJ was averging ~35 ppg IN THE PLAYOFFS?

How many did Kareem win without Magic or Oscar?
5 without Oscar, 1 without Magic

How many did Kobe win without Shaq or Gasol?
2 without Shaq, 3 without Gasol

How many did Hakeem win when his teammates were outplayed by the opposing team's?
More than Wilt

[LAZERUSS]

You mean when MJ was averging ~35 ppg IN THE PLAYOFFS?

5 without Oscar, 1 without Magic

2 without Shaq, 3 without Gasol

More than Wilt

Chamberlain AVERAGED 35 ppg in two complete playoffs, and had SERIES' of 37, 37, 39, 39

So, Kareem did not win ANY without Oscar OR Magic

And Kobe did not win ANY without Shaq OR Gasol.

And did give me the list of Hakeem's playoff teams in which his teammates collectively shot .382, .354, .354, .352, and .332...or just puked all over themselves in game seven's...while his OPPOSING teams were shooting considerably better...and his TEAM still won a title.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain AVERAGED 35 ppg in two complete playoffs, and had SERIES' of 37, 37, 39, 39

So, Kareem did not win ANY without Oscar OR Magic

And Kobe did not win ANY without Shaq OR Gasol.

And did give me the list of Hakeem's playoff teams in which his teammates collectively shot .382, .354, .354, .352, and .332...or just puked all over themselves in game seven's...while his OPPOSING teams were shooting considerably better...and his TEAM still won a title.
Wilton never scratched 25 ppg in a championship run. He was never even the leading scorer, or the 2nd leading scorer on a championship team. Hmmm.. seems weird that when Wilt was being the team's leading scorer they never won a championship, but once he stopped chucking, his team ended up winning 2 rings later on....

The GOAT averaged 35 ppg in 2 playoff runs that resulted in a championship, the rest were above 30 ppg.

Kareem never played with Oscar and Magic at the same time, so it's like me asking why didn't Wilt win a title without Hal Greer and Jerry West? Oscar was already old once Kareem played with him anyways.

Shaq and Gasol were never on Kobe's team at the same time.

Let's not get into the Hakeem vs Wilt debate. Bottom line is that both were 2x Champions. Don't act like Wilt is on some other planet compared to Hakeem.

[Deuce Bigalow]

OT: Why doesn't the 48 NBL title count for the Lakers? Same with the Pistons in 44 & 45? I'm not going to compare Mikan to guys after the shotclock was introduced for obvious reasons, but:

NBL Championships: 47, 48
BAA Championships: 49
NBA Championships: 50, 52, 53, 54

is pretty damn impressive. Too bad Bob Kurland opted for AAU, or else it could've been an incredible rivalry.
So you're telling me the Lakers should have 18 titles compared to Boston's 17...?

Lakers need to sue the NBA for not counting those :oldlol:

[fpliii]

So you're telling me the Lakers should have 18 titles compared to Boston's 17...?

Lakers need to sue the NBA for not counting those :oldlol:

17, Mikan's 47 championship he was with the Chicago Gears. But yeah, should be a tie, and LA gets there far more often (and consistently).

[LAZERUSS]

Wilton never scratched 25 ppg in a championship run. He was never even the leading scorer, or the 2nd leading scorer on a championship team. Hmmm.. seems weird that when Wilt was being the team's leading scorer they never won a championship, but once he stopped chucking, his team ended up winning 2 rings later on....

The GOAT averaged 35 ppg in 2 playoff runs that resulted in a championship, the rest were above 30 ppg.

Kareem never played with Oscar and Magic at the same time, so it's like me asking why didn't Wilt win a title without Hal Greer and Jerry West? Oscar was already old once Kareem played with him anyways.

Shaq and Gasol were never on Kobe's team at the same time.

Let's not get into the Hakeem vs Wilt debate. Bottom line is that both were 2x Champions. Don't act like Wilt is on some other planet compared to Hakeem.

Jordan averaged 41 ppg in the playoffs on a team that was SWEPT. And how come MJ played for FIVE LOSING teams in his career?

What happened to Kobe in '05, '06 and '07? How come no titles?

Kareem played his first ten years in the NBA and won ONE ring (with Oscar), and when Oscar retired, his Bucks fell to 38-44. He was traded the next year, and his Lakers only went 40-42. How come?

Hakeem played on teams that were eliminated in the FIRST ROUND in EIGHT of his 15 post-seasons, and only went to three Finals. How come?

Kobe has played on as many teams that did NOT win a title, as Chamberlain did in his career. Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem all played on teams that lost MORE often than Wilt did in his career. How come?

Get that nonsense out of here...

The best TEAMs win the title.

[Deuce Bigalow]

17, Mikan's 47 championship he was with the Chicago Gears. But yeah, should be a tie, and LA gets there far more often (and consistently).
:applause: Lakers made the Finals 10 more times if I memorized that correctly.

What makes the Lakers titles more impressive is that 13 of their titles were won when Boston didn't make the Finals, while Boston's 9 of 17 titles were won while the Lakers made the Finals.

1948-49: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
1949-50: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
1951-52: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals
1952-53: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals
1953-54: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1971-72: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1979-80: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1981-82: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1987-88: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1999-00: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
2000-01: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
2001-02: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
2008-09: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals

Even though Boston has a 9-3 head to head lead, that is only because they were not good enough to make the Finals and play the Lakers those 13 seasons, or else the h2h would be different.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan averaged 41 ppg in the playoffs on a team that was SWEPT. And how come MJ played for FIVE LOSING teams in his career?
What happened when he had a good team around him? Speaking up 41 ppg...'93 NBA Finals

What happened to Kobe in '05, '06 and '07? How come no titles?
What happened when he had a good team around him?

Kareem played his first ten years in the NBA and won ONE ring (with Oscar), and when Oscar retired, his Bucks fell to 38-44. He was traded the next year, and his Lakers only went 40-42. How come?
Wilt won 1 title in his first 12 seasons

Hakeem played on teams that were eliminated in the FIRST ROUND in EIGHT of his 15 post-seasons, and only went to three Finals. How come?
How many HOFers did he play with those years?

Kobe has played on as many teams that did NOT win a title, as Chamberlain did in his career. Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem all played on teams that lost MORE often than Wilt did in his career. How come?
How come all of those players except for Hakeem have more rings than Wilt?

Get that nonsense out of here...
Exactly

The best TEAMs win the title.
What makes up a team?

[LAZERUSS]

What happened when he had a good team around him?

What happened when he had a good team around him?

Wilt won 1 title in his first 12 seasons

How many HOFers did he play with those years?

How come all of those players except for Hakeem have more rings than Wilt?

Exactly

What makes up a team?

What happened when he had a good team around him?
Like 94-95? Jordan won with the BEST TEAMS.

So Kareem with teams as bad as Wilt's won as often as Chamberlain did. When he had Magic, he won FIVE.

Kobe couldn't win without his teammates outplaying his opposing teammates.

Hakeem seldom faced HOFers either. His '94 team had more talent than Ewings. And he had more HOFers on his '95 team than Shaq did. And Hakeem didn't even make the Finals in years in which he had TWO HOF teammates. (Drexler and Barkley, and Barkley and Pippen.) How come?

Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, ...none of them ever faced teams that had between FOUR to NINE HOFers either. And when Jordan did, his team's were SWEPT. Chamberlain had to battle single TEAMs, with between FOUR to NINE HOFers, in THIRTEEN of his 14 seasons in the league. And he won titles twice, even though his teams were outgunned by HOFers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What happened when he had a good team around him?
Like 94-95? Jordan won with the BEST TEAMS.
You're really going to ignore 91, 92, 93, 96, 97, and 98?

So Kareem with teams as bad as Wilt's won as often as Chamberlain did. When he had Magic, he won FIVE.
Nope. Kareem won 2 in his first 12 seasons, Wilt 1. 3 in his first 14, one more than Wilt in his 14 year career.

Kobe couldn't win without his teammates outplaying his opposing teammates.
His last 2 titles he was the leading scorer and assist man on his team by far.

Hakeem seldom faced HOFers either. His '94 team had more talent than Ewings. And he had more HOFers on his '95 team than Shaq did.
The '94 team with 0 all-star teammates :applause:

Kobe, Shaq, Hakeem, ...none of them ever faced teams that had between FOUR to NINE HOFers either. And when Jordan did, his team's were SWEPT. Chamberlain had to battle single TEAMs, with between FOUR to NINE HOFers, in THIRTEEN of his 14 seasons in the league. And he won titles twice, even though his teams were outgunned by HOFers.
They never had that many HOFers on their team anyways. Don't make me list the HOFers that Wilt played with on his career...

[fpliii]

:applause: Lakers made the Finals 10 more times if I memorized that correctly.

What makes the Lakers titles more impressive is that 13 of their titles were won when Boston didn't make the Finals, while Boston's 9 of 17 titles were won while the Lakers made the Finals.

1948-49: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
1949-50: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
1951-52: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals
1952-53: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals
1953-54: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1971-72: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1979-80: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1981-82: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1987-88: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
1999-00: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
2000-01: Lakers win Title, Celtics miss Playoffs
2001-02: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Conference Finals
2008-09: Lakers win Title, Celtics lose in Semifinals

Even though Boston has a 9-3 head to head lead, that is only because they were not good enough to make the Finals and play the Lakers those 13 seasons, or else the h2h would be different.

Remove Russell and Bird from the Celtics, they have 3 championships. #sixandahalfdecadesofgreatness

[Deuce Bigalow]

Speaking of Wilt and Kareem in their first 14 seasons.

Wilt 1960-73
2x Champion
4x MVP
13x All-Star
10x All-NBA team

Kareem 1970-83
3x Champion
6x MVP
13x All-Star
12x All-NBA team

Kareem's '85 season when he won his fourth title and second finals MVP is when he surpassed Wilt and there is no debate left.

After the '85 season, his resume:

Kareem 1970-85
4x Champion
6x MVP
2x Finals MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA team

[LAZERUSS]

Speaking of Wilt and Kareem in their first 14 seasons.

Wilt 1960-73
2x Champion
4x MVP
13x All-Star
10x All-NBA team

Kareem 1970-83
3x Champion
6x MVP
13x All-Star
12x All-NBA team

Kareem's '85 season when he won his fourth title and second finals MVP is when he surpassed Wilt and there is no debate left.

After the '85 season, his resume:

Kareem 1970-85
4x Champion
6x MVP
2x Finals MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA team

KAJ won ONE title without MAGIC.

MVP's? Really? Chamberlain did NOT win in '62 and '64, even though he was voted first-team All-NBA over the MVP in '62. KAJ DID win in '76. Even though McAdoo SHOULD have won it.

How important was KAJ to those five Laker titles. He led his team down in flames, with FAR superior rosters in '78 and '79, losing to a Sonics team that had ONE borderline HOFer. When Magic arrived. Eight Finals, and Five rings. In the clinching game six on the road in the '80 Finals...it was MAGIC who led the Lakers to a title...while KAJ was at home on his couch. Magic was injured in the '89 Finals...Lakers swept. Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVE to a 63-19 record. The next year they go the Finals.

How about MAGIC? Once again, the Lakers were an underachieving team that was early round cannon-fodder, even with the likes of KAJ, Dantley, and Wilkes.

MAGIC leads the Lakers to NINE Finals in his 12 seasons, including their second best record of the decade of the 80's, withOUT KAJ. He wins THREE FMVPs, and is robbed in '88 for his 4th. Once again, KAJ misses a Finals game, and Magic carries them to a title. Magic misses two and half games in the '88 Finals...LA is swept.

Magic, without KAJ leads the Lakers to records of 63-19 and 58-24, and another Finals. Magic retires...the Lakers plummett back to the pre-Magic days with records of 43-39 and 39-43.

Sorry, but KAJ, like Kobe in the Shaq years...was a good second fiddle.

As for real dominance.

KAJ with TWO scoring titles. Chamberlain with SEVEN.
KAJ's highest scoring season. 34.8 ppg. Wilt? 36.9 ppg, 38.4 ppg, 44.8 ppg, and 50.4 ppg.

KAJ with one FG% title. Chamberlain with NINE. KAJ's highest FG% season? .604. Wilt with seasons of .649, .683, and .727.

KAJ with ONE rebounding title. Chamberlain with ELEVEN. Wilt's WORST seasons are better than ANY of KAJ's best.

Defense? In his last two seasons, Chamberlain was voted ahead of KAJ (and everyone for that matter) in all-defensive teams. And he averaged 5.42 bpg in his last season. KAJ was at 3.5 bpg the very next season.

Assists? Wilt won one title, and came in third in another season. Give me a list of seasons that KAJ was even in the top-10.

Take a look at the RECORD BOOK. Kareem may have as many as a dozen. Wilt? Harvey Pollack claimed that Wilt had 90 in 2009. The reality was/is...Chamberlain has HUNDREDS of NBA records.

Once again, you are rewarding players with TEAM success. And even at that, other than MJ, no other top-10 player has ever had 68-13 and 69-13 TEAM records.

KAJ was an underachiever...plain-and-simple. Take MAGIC out of his career, and Kareem would be a borderline top-10 player.

[Deuce Bigalow]

KAJ won ONE title without MAGIC.

MVP's? Really? Chamberlain did NOT win in '62 and '64, even though he was voted first-team All-NBA over the MVP in '62. KAJ DID win in '76. Even though McAdoo SHOULD have won it.

How important was KAJ to those five Laker titles. He led his team down in flames, with FAR superior rosters in '78 and '79, losing to a Sonics team that had ONE borderline HOFer. When Magic arrived. Eight Finals, and Five rings. In the clinching game six on the road in the '80 Finals...it was MAGIC who led the Lakers to a title...while KAJ was at home on his couch. Magic was injured in the '89 Finals...Lakers swept. Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVE to a 63-19 record. The next year they go the Finals.

How about MAGIC? Once again, the Lakers were an underachieving team that was early round cannon-fodder, even with the likes of KAJ, Dantley, and Wilkes.

MAGIC leads the Lakers to NINE Finals in his 12 seasons, including their second best record of the decade of the 80's, withOUT KAJ. He wins THREE FMVPs, and is robbed in '88 for his 4th. Once again, KAJ misses a Finals game, and Magic carries them to a title. Magic misses two and half games in the '88 Finals...LA is swept.

Magic, without KAJ leads the Lakers to records of 63-19 and 58-24, and another Finals. Magic retires...the Lakers plummett back to the pre-Magic days with records of 43-39 and 39-43.

Sorry, but KAJ, like Kobe in the Shaq years...was a good second fiddle.

As for real dominance.

KAJ with TWO scoring titles. Chamberlain with SEVEN.
KAJ's highest scoring season. 34.8 ppg. Wilt? 36.9 ppg, 38.4 ppg, 44.8 ppg, and 50.4 ppg.

KAJ with one FG% title. Chamberlain with NINE. KAJ's highest FG% season? .604. Wilt with seasons of .649, .683, and .727.

KAJ with ONE rebounding title. Chamberlain with ELEVEN.

Defense? In his last two seasons, Chamberlain was voted ahead of KAJ (and everyone for that matter) in all-defensive teams. And he averaged 5.42 bpg in his last season. KAJ was at 3.5 bpg the very next season.

Assists? Wilt won one title, and came in third in another season. Give me a list of seasons that KAJ was even in the top-10.

Take a look at the RECORD BOOK. Kareem may have as many as a dozen. Wilt? Harvey Pollack claimed that Wilt had 90 in 2009. The reality was/is...Chamberlain has HUNDREDS of NBA records.

Once again, you are rewarding players with TEAM success. And even at that, other than MJ, no other top-10 player has ever had 68-13 and 69-13 TEAM records.

KAJ was an underachiever...plain-and-simple. Take MAGIC out of his career, and Kareem would be a borderline top-10 player.
You are tying Kareem's '80 title to his last 4 rings, which is wrong. In '80 he was the best player in the league. He was the League MVP. In the '80 playoffs his numbers were the closest to prime Shaq as there has ever been. 32-12-3 & 4 blk on 57% FG/79% FT. In the Finals? 33-14-3 & 5 blk on 55% FG/81% FT in the 5 games he played. His last 4 rings, yes they are not that impressive, but his first 2 are better than Wilt's. He was the leading scorer and rebounder in the '71 and '80 playoff runs that led to a title. WIlt was not the top 2 scorer in the '67 and '72 playoff runs.

LOL at being carried in 1 game means that the entire run is dismissed. Let's just forget every other game in the '80 playoffs? Kareem has 2 rings as the best player on the team, which is the same amount as Wilt. But Kareem also has a very good '85 season where he averaged 22-8-5 in the playoffs and 26-9-5 on 60% in his FMVP performance in the Finals.

Let's take a look at "REAL" dominance. The Playoffs.

Kareem in his first 12 years averaged 30.3 ppg, 53.3 fg%, 72.7 ft% in the 1970-81 Playoffs

2x Champion - leading scorer & rebounder
2-2 in the NBA Finals

Wilt in his first 13 years in the Playoffs? (Got to count the '72 playoffs)

24.0 ppg, 52.1 fg%, 46.3 ft% in the 1960-72 Playoffs

2x Champion - leading rebounder
2-3 in the NBA Finals

Kareem averaged more points and was much more efficient. Look at the ft% difference as proof.

[Psileas]

10 years of Michael Jordan or 5 years of George Mikan?
15 years of Kareem or 6 years of Mikan?

Knowing that Mikan got 4 titles in 5 years and 5 in 6, while Jordan got 3 in 10 and Kareem 3 in 15, it's a reasonable bet to take him over them as well.

[LAZERUSS]

You are tying Kareem's '80 title to his last 4 rings, which is wrong. In '80 he was the best player in the league. He was the League MVP. In the '80 playoffs his numbers were the closest to prime Shaq as there has ever been. 32-12-3 & 4 blk on 57% FG/79% FT. In the Finals? 33-14-3 & 5 blk on 55% FG/81% FT in the 5 games he played. His last 4 rings, yes they are not that impressive, but his first 2 are better than Wilt's. He was the leading scorer and rebounder in the '71 and '80 playoff runs that led to a title. WIlt was not the top 2 scorer in the '67 and '72 playoff runs.

LOL at being carried in 1 game means that the entire run is dismissed. Let's just forget every other game in the '80 playoffs? Kareem has 2 rings as the best player on the team, which is the same amount as Wilt. But Kareem also has a very good '85 season where he averaged 22-8-5 in the playoffs and 26-9-5 on 60% in his FMVP performance in the Finals.

Let's take a look at "REAL" dominance. The Playoffs.

Kareem in his first 12 years averaged 30.3 ppg, 53.3 fg%, 72.7 ft% in the 1970-81 Playoffs

2x Champion - leading scorer & rebounder
2-2 in the NBA Finals

Wilt in his first 13 years in the Playoffs? (Got to count the '72 playoffs)

24.0 ppg, 52.1 fg%, 46.3 ft% in the 1960-72 Playoffs

2x Champion - leading rebounder
2-3 in the NBA Finals

Kareem averaged more points and was much more efficient. Look at the ft% difference as proof.

Let's cherry pick some more stats then, shall we.

How about a PRIME SCORING Chamberlain, in his first seven seasons, vs a PRIME Kareem in his first seven seasons...

Post-season numbers:

KAJ averaged 29.7 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, and shot .510.
Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, and shot .505 from the field.

Furthermore, while KAJ outshot Wilt from the line, .696 to .523...guess what, Chamberlain MADE 70 MORE FTs. As always, Wilt's IMPACT from the line was greater.

AND, KAJ's "more efficient" FG% came in post-seasons that shot between .445 and .451 (and he didn't even play in the '75 and '76 post-seasons.) KAJ's .510 essentially came in post-seasons that shot about .447 on average.

Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in post-seasons that shot .402, .403, .411, .434, .420, .429, and .440. Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in NBA post-seasons that shot about .420 on average. So, yep, Chamberlain was MORE efficient against LEAGUE AVERAGE than Kareem was.


But let's carry this further.

How about KAJ's and Wilt's four seasons in the league together. Sice you seem to believe winning makes the better player...well, Chamberlain went to THREE Finals in those our seasons...Kareem...ONE.

In Chamberlain's 29 post-season series, I could only find one in which the opposing center outshot him from the field. And in that post-season, KAJ outshot Wilt by a .457 to .452 margin...BUT, he missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20.
And I couldn't find ONE in which a teammate outshot Wilt.

I can find several post-seasons in which KAJ was outshot, not only by opposing centers (and some badly), but even by teammates. Kareem had post-season series in which he shot .457, .437, .414, and even .405 (And this was a PRIME Kareem, in his greatest scoring season, and not only that, he was outshot and outscored by his opposing center in that series.)

Rebounding? Chamberlain was the leading rebounder in EVERY one of his 29 post-season series. KAJ? Hell, he was routinely outrebounded, and even POUNDED by opposing centers (Moses just killed him in the '83 Finals)..and even by teammates, including GUARDS.

A PRIME "Scoring" Chamberlain was not only never outscored in a playoff series, he was only outscored in two of the 52 games (and just barely.)

BTW, regarding teammates. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, I could only find two post-seasons, and by TWO players that played anything resembling meaningful minutes, who shot over .500 from the floor. Dick Garrett with a .510 FG% (on 12.8 ppg) in '70, and Happy Hairston at .506 (on 17.0 ppg) in '71. That was IT. A TOTAL of TWO players, in his 13 post-seasons, that had ONE post-season with a FG% of higher than .500 (and both were just barely.)

Not only that, but Chamberlain's best scoring teammates had post-seasons of .328, .375, .352, .429, .432, and even West had a post-season of .376. Find me the seasons in which any other all-time great had such poor support. Meanwhile KAJ routinly had teammates shooting over 50%, including several in the same year. Hell, he had entire supporting castsa, aside from himself, shooting over 50% in a post-season ('86 for one.) And Worthy had post-seasons of .591, .599, and even .622.

And once again, find me a season in which KAJ carried his 40-40 team with a first round romp over a 48-32 team, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team, and with his teammates collectively shooting .412, (and oh, BTW, in that Celtic series, all Wilt did was average 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor.) Or take a 49-31 team thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team, all with his teammates collectively shooting .354 from the floor.

Once again, MJ played on FIVE losing teams. He was SWEPT twice. And how good were his teammates when he finally started winning rings. Quite frankly, almost good enough to win a title without him. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record. He 'retired", and his team "fell" to a 55-27 record. Not only that, but they lost a close seven game series to a Knicks team that would lose a close seven game series to the Rockets in the Finals. And his teammates were even better in his next "three-peat."

Kobe? Hell, in his highest scoring season, he couldn't get his team past the first round, and as always, choked in the clinching game. In fact, has there ever been a "great" player who was on the end of more routs in his last playoff games each year? And even in his winning Finals, he seldom shot even crappy. He is a second fiddle in his first three titles; has a losing season without Shaq; and can't get to the Finals until LA steals Gasol.

Shaq? SWEPT six times, and nearly a seventh with a heavily-favored Laker team in '04.

Hakeem? He couldn't win a title until MJ stepped away, and then needed his TEAMMATES to badly outplay Shaq's the next year. Oh, and along the way...EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS.

Kareem? Where to begin? In his clinching game five blowout loss to the Knicks in '70, 132-96, Willis Reed shredded him with a 32 point game.

He did manage to win a title in '71, with a first round series win against the 41-41 Warriors; and WCF's win over a 48-34 Laker team that was missing both West and Baylor (and in a series in which Wilt statistically outplayed him); and then a sweeping win over the 42-40 Bullets in the Finals. Wow...that was impressive.

In his 71-72 post-season, he was outscored and outshot (and only shot .405) by Nate Thurmond in the first round of the playoffs. Then, he shot .414 over the course of his last four playoff games against Wilt in the '72 WCF's, and shot his 63-19 Bucks right out of the series.

In his 72-73 playoffs, in the first round, he single-handedly led his 60-22 team down in flames against Nate and his 47-35 Warriors, shooting just .428 in the process of a shocking series defeat.

In the 73-74 Finals, in a game seven on his home floor, he is badly outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens, and his Bucks are wiped out.

In 74-75, Oscar retires, and KAJ's Bucks immediately plummet to 38-44. They gladly ship him off, and still go 38-44 without him the next year. Meanwhile in that 75-76 season, KAJ's Lakers only go 40-42 and miss the playoffs.

In 76-77 KAJ's Lakers have the best record in the league, and are SWEPT in the WCF's by a 49-33 Blazer team.

In 77-78 KAJ's talent-laden Lakers, fielding Lou Hudson, Jammal Wilkes, and Adrian Dantley, get plastered in the first round of the playoffs by a Sonics team with one borderline HOF player. A 44-38 Bullets team wins the title.

In 78-79...see above. The Sonics wipe the floor with the Lakers in the second round, 4-1.

In 80-81 Moses outplays KAJ, and takes his 40-42 Rockets past KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

In 82-83, Moses just crushes KAJ, and leads his Sixers to a SWEEP of the Lakers.

In 83-84, KAJ shoots 7-25 in a pivotal game five, and overall, only shoots .481 in the Finals, and his Lakers give away the series to a team that they should havev swept.

In 85-86, after completely annihilating Hakeem all season long, he chokes when Sampson guards him in the WCF's, and his Lakers are upset by the Rockets.

In 87-88, he contributes absolutely nothing to a title, and in the Finals, shoots .414, and has the worst game seven by an all-time great in NBA history.

In 88-89, Magic goes down with an injury in game two of the Finals...and the result is yet another sweeping loss for KAJ. He retires, and the Lakers dramatically improve to a 63-19 record.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Bird?

I'll late Colts18 take this one...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


I could go on, but as you SHOULD plainly see, basketball is a TEAM game, and the better TEAM usually wins. Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series, and was arguably the best player on the floor in nearly all of them (and he either outplayed, or downright dominated his opposing center in all of them). Can Kobe, Shaq, MJ, Bird, KAJ, Hakeem, and other's make that claim?

[LAZERUSS]

I doubt there was anyone that would have taken Mikan over a high school Chamberlain at that time.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Let's cherry pick some more stats then, shall we.

How about a PRIME SCORING Chamberlain, in his first seven seasons, vs a PRIME Kareem in his first seven seasons...

Post-season numbers:

KAJ averaged 29.7 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, and shot .510.
Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, and shot .505 from the field.

Furthermore, while KAJ outshot Wilt from the line, .696 to .523...guess what, Chamberlain MADE 70 MORE FTs. As always, Wilt's IMPACT from the line was greater.

AND, KAJ's "more efficient" FG% came in post-seasons that shot between .445 and .451 (and he didn't even play in the '75 and '76 post-seasons.) KAJ's .510 essentially came in post-seasons that shot about .447 on average.

Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in post-seasons that shot .402, .403, .411, .434, .420, .429, and .440. Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in NBA post-seasons that shot about .420 on average. So, yep, Chamberlain was MORE efficient against LEAGUE AVERAGE than Kareem was.


But let's carry this further.

How about KAJ's and Wilt's four seasons in the league together. Sice you seem to believe winning makes the better player...well, Chamberlain went to THREE Finals in those our seasons...Kareem...ONE.

In Chamberlain's 29 post-season series, I could only find one in which the opposing center outshot him from the field. And in that post-season, KAJ outshot Wilt by a .457 to .452 margin...BUT, he missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20.
And I couldn't find ONE in which a teammate outshot Wilt.

I can find several post-seasons in which KAJ was outshot, not only by opposing centers (and some badly), but even by teammates. Kareem had post-season series in which he shot .457, .437, .414, and even .405 (And this was a PRIME Kareem, in his greatest scoring season, and not only that, he was outshot and outscored by his opposing center in that series.)

Rebounding? Chamberlain was the leading rebounder in EVERY one of his 29 post-season series. KAJ? Hell, he was routinely outrebounded, and even POUNDED by opposing centers (Moses just killed him in the '83 Finals)..and even by teammates, including GUARDS.

A PRIME "Scoring" Chamberlain was not only never outscored in a playoff series, he was only outscored in two of the 52 games (and just barely.)

BTW, regarding teammates. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, I could only find two post-seasons, and by TWO players that played anything resembling meaningful minutes, who shot over .500 from the floor. Dick Garrett with a .510 FG% (on 12.8 ppg) in '70, and Happy Hairston at .506 (on 17.0 ppg) in '71. That was IT. A TOTAL of TWO players, in his 13 post-seasons, that had ONE post-season with a FG% of higher than .500 (and both were just barely.)

Not only that, but Chamberlain's best scoring teammates had post-seasons of .328, .375, .352, .429, .432, and even West had a post-season of .376. Find me the seasons in which any other all-time great had such poor support. Meanwhile KAJ routinly had teammates shooting over 50%, including several in the same year. Hell, he had entire supporting castsa, aside from himself, shooting over 50% in a post-season ('86 for one.) And Worthy had post-seasons of .591, .599, and even .622.

And once again, find me a season in which KAJ carried his 40-40 team with a first round romp over a 48-32 team, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team, and with his teammates collectively shooting .412, (and oh, BTW, in that Celtic series, all Wilt did was average 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor.) Or take a 49-31 team thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team, all with his teammates collectively shooting .354 from the floor.

Once again, MJ played on FIVE losing teams. He was SWEPT twice. And how good were his teammates when he finally started winning rings. Quite frankly, almost good enough to win a title without him. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record. He 'retired", and his team "fell" to a 55-27 record. Not only that, but they lost a close seven game series to a Knicks team that would lose a close seven game series to the Rockets in the Finals. And his teammates were even better in his next "three-peat."

Kobe? Hell, in his highest scoring season, he couldn't get his team past the first round, and as always, choked in the clinching game. In fact, has there ever been a "great" player who was on the end of more routs in his last playoff games each year? And even in his winning Finals, he seldom shot even crappy. He is a second fiddle in his first three titles; has a losing season without Shaq; and can't get to the Finals until LA steals Gasol.

Shaq? SWEPT six times, and nearly a seventh with a heavily-favored Laker team in '04.

Hakeem? He couldn't win a title until MJ stepped away, and then needed his TEAMMATES to badly outplay Shaq's the next year. Oh, and along the way...EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS.

Kareem? Where to begin? In his clinching game five blowout loss to the Knicks in '70, 132-96, Willis Reed shredded him with a 32 point game.

He did manage to win a title in '71, with a first round series win against the 41-41 Warriors; and WCF's win over a 48-34 Laker team that was missing both West and Baylor (and in a series in which Wilt statistically outplayed him); and then a sweeping win over the 42-40 Bullets in the Finals. Wow...that was impressive.

In his 71-72 post-season, he was outscored and outshot (and only shot .405) by Nate Thurmond in the first round of the playoffs. Then, he shot .414 over the course of his last four playoff games against Wilt in the '72 WCF's, and shot his 63-19 Bucks right out of the series.

In his 72-73 playoffs, in the first round, he single-handedly led his 60-22 team down in flames against Nate and his 47-35 Warriors, shooting just .428 in the process of a shocking series defeat.

In the 73-74 Finals, in a game seven on his home floor, he is badly outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens, and his Bucks are wiped out.

In 74-75, Oscar retires, and KAJ's Bucks immediately plummet to 38-44. They gladly ship him off, and still go 38-44 without him the next year. Meanwhile in that 75-76 season, KAJ's Lakers only go 40-42 and miss the playoffs.

In 76-77 KAJ's Lakers have the best record in the league, and are SWEPT in the WCF's by a 49-33 Blazer team.

In 77-78 KAJ's talent-laden Lakers, fielding Lou Hudson, Jammal Wilkes, and Adrian Dantley, get plastered in the first round of the playoffs by a Sonics team with one borderline HOF player. A 44-38 Bullets team wins the title.

In 78-79...see above. The Sonics wipe the floor with the Lakers in the second round, 4-1.

In 80-81 Moses outplays KAJ, and takes his 40-42 Rockets past KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

In 82-83, Moses just crushes KAJ, and leads his Sixers to a SWEEP of the Lakers.

In 83-84, KAJ shoots 7-25 in a pivotal game five, and overall, only shoots .481 in the Finals, and his Lakers give away the series to a team that they should havev swept.

In 85-86, after completely annihilating Hakeem all season long, he chokes when Sampson guards him in the WCF's, and his Lakers are upset by the Rockets.

In 87-88, he contributes absolutely nothing to a title, and in the Finals, shoots .414, and has the worst game seven by an all-time great in NBA history.

In 88-89, Magic goes down with an injury in game two of the Finals...and the result is yet another sweeping loss for KAJ. He retires, and the Lakers dramatically improve to a 63-19 record.

Continued...
Okay, your first part you talk about how Wilt was actually more "efficient" than Kareem because he was more efficient compared to his league in the given years. But like I already talked to you about a long time ago is that lower league FG% does NOT mean "tougher". In fact in the early years of the NBA, low FG% is proof of basketball still in its infancy and is WEAKER, not tougher. The first season of the NBA, the league average was an all-time low of 27.9 FG% in 1946-47. From 1946-47 to 1958-59, the NBA league average FG% was below 40% every season. Was that the "toughest" era? Was it "harder" to score then? ENOUGH with your league average bullshit to prop up Wilt. EVEN IF you use that argument to say Wilt was more efficient than Kareem, you're still wrong. Kareem shot 20%+ higher from the free-throw line.

"Wilt's impact from the line was greater" WTF is this? On what planet is a 51% freethrow shooter having a greater "impact" on the line than a 72% freethrow shooter? For every 100 freethrows Wilt took compared to Kareem, he missed 21 more in the regular season, this gap is of course bigger in the playoffs when the "Big Dipper" dips his efficiency from everywhere including freethrows by more than 5 percentage points in the playoffs compared to the regular season. If I can name one reason as to why Wilt did not win more rings than he should have, it was because of his "impact" on the freethrow line, there was none. I already gave you tons of examples of this when I mentioned his FT-FTA in close losses.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Let's have a closer look at Wilt's career, shall we?

1960-61

Warriors (46-33) are SWEPT 3-0 WITH HCA to the Nationals (38-41)

Wilt was swept by a losing team while having HCA. What is worse than this? That is as low as it gets.

1962-63

Warriors MISS THE PLAYOFFS. Record: 31-49

Wilt played all 80 games.

1965-66

76ers (55-25) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Celtics (54-26)

1967-68

76ers (62-20) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND A 3-1 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (54-28)

Wilt's team had the BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE.
Wilt in Game 6 of the series: 20 points, 6-20 FG, 8-23 FT
Wilt in the last 2 games of the series: 34 points, 10-29 FG, 14-38 FT

1968-69

76ers go 55-27 WITHOUT Wilt in the 1968-69 season.

Lakers (55-27) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND AFTER HAVING 2-0 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (48-34)

Celtics did not even win 50 games. Wilt's coach BENCHED Wilt for the final minutes of GAME 7 OF THE NBA FINALS.

1972-73

Lakers (60-22) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Knicks (57-25)

What a way for Wilt to end his career. Losing in the NBA Finals, check, while having HCA, double check. He was used to that.

[millwad]

RINGS...


How many did Hakeem win when his teammates were outplayed by the opposing team's?

Etc., etc, etc...

Haha, you clown, was that the best you could do?

Olajuwon won in '94 while having teammates who were outplayed by the Knicks. Watch the finals and the playoffs and feel ashamed of your stupidity afterwards.

Olajuwon won while having Maxwell as his second best scorer, a player who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting in the playoffs in '94.

Wilt won while having HOF and all-stars next to him and yet he only managed to win two titles which is very lame.

[LAZERUSS]

Let's have a closer look at Wilt's career, shall we?

1960-61

Warriors (46-33) are SWEPT 3-0 WITH HCA to the Nationals (38-41)

Wilt was swept by a losing team while having HCA. What is worse than this? That is as low as it gets.

1962-63

Warriors MISS THE PLAYOFFS. Record: 31-49

Wilt played all 80 games.

1965-66

76ers (55-25) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Celtics (54-26)

1967-68

76ers (62-20) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND A 3-1 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (54-28)

Wilt's team had the BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE.
Wilt in Game 6 of the series: 20 points, 6-20 FG, 8-23 FT
Wilt in the last 2 games of the series: 34 points, 10-29 FG, 14-38 FT

1968-69

76ers go 55-27 WITHOUT Wilt in the 1968-69 season.

Lakers (55-27) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND AFTER HAVING 2-0 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (48-34)

Celtics did not even win 50 games. Wilt's coach BENCHED Wilt for the final minutes of GAME 7 OF THE NBA FINALS.

1972-73

Lakers (60-22) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Knicks (57-25)

What a way for Wilt to end his career. Losing in the NBA Finals, check, while having HCA, double check. He was used to that.



1960-61

Warriors (46-33) are SWEPT 3-0 WITH HCA to the Nationals (38-41)


Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg 23 rpg and shot .467 (in a post-season that shot .403). In the clinching game three loss, Wilt outscores the Nats starting center, 7- Swede Halbrook, 33-7, and pulls down 23 rebounds. Wilt's tw bes teammates, Paul Arizin and Tom Gola shoot .328 and .206 respectively from the field, and overall, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shoot .332.


1962-63

Warriors MISS THE PLAYOFFS. Record: 31-49

Wilt played all 80 games

The Warriors have a -2.1 ppg differential, and lose 35 games by single digits. And while Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .402 from the field (the worst team in the league shot .427), all Wilt does is lead the league in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories. He runs away with the scoring title, at 4.8 ppg. He leads the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg and he sets a then FG mark of .528 (in a league that shot .441.) BTW, he also runs away with two advanced stats, WIN-SHARES, at 20.9 (so he was directly responsible for 70% of his teams wins), and PER, with an all-time mark of 31.8.

Three points. One, just how bad was that roster? His new coach the very next season, Aex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage with the veterans, sans Wilt, and against draft picks and rejects. Guess which team won?

Secondly, Wilt would then take that same cast of clowns, to a 48-32 record, and a first round series win against a Hawks team, that were better player-for-player, 2-6...with a 39 ppg 23 rpg, .560 series. And while his Warriors lost to the Celtics and their EIGHT HOFers, Wilt (with his only HOF teammate being rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, out of position, and was awful shooting the ball), 4-1, the last two losses were in the waning seconds. And BTW, Chamberlain just wiped the floor with Russell in that series.

And finally. Here was Chamberlain, with absolutely no help, and with little hope, playiong nearly 48 mpg, and just single-handedly blowing the league away...even on a 31-9 team.

Let's compare that with Kareem, shall we? In KAJ's greatest statistical season, 71-72, he played a career high 44.2 mpg, on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. He averaged 4.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot.574 from the field. In the post-season, he was outplayed by Nate Thurmond, and then Chamberlain reduced him to a brick-layer in the last four games of the WCF's (shooting a paltry .414 from the floor), and he basically shot his team right out of the series.

But, that's not all. The Bucks are happy to unload KAJ after his disappointing 74-5 season, and trade him to a mediocre Laker team. Now, here is KAJ's opportunity to really put up a monumental season...maybe even challenge some of Wilt's best marks. But, alas, KAJ flops. He plays 41.2 mpg, his scoring dros to 27.7 ppg, he grabs 16.6 rpg, but only shoots .529 from the field. So, instead of having a 35 ppg season like he did in '72, when he was playing in blowout wins, he drops dramatically, and his team goes 40-42, and doesn't make the playoffs. His play was the exact opposite of Chamberlain's play in 62-63. He basically packed it in.



1965-66

76ers (55-25) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Celtics (54-26)


Yep...Chamberlain leads the league in scoring, rebounding, and sets a FG% mark (remember that same thing in '63?) ...and in doing so, he takes his team to the best record in the league. No other player has ever come close to achieving that BTW.

And during the regular season, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3 against the Celtics. And in the process, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 from the field.

Ok, so in the EDF's against Boston, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. And yet his team was wiped out, 4-1. What happened? His teammates collectively shot .352 from the field in that serie. But yes, let's blame Wilt, even though he played the sme EXACT way against Boston that he did during the regular season.


1967-68

76ers (62-20) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND A 3-1 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (54-28)

Wilt's team had the BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE.
Wilt in Game 6 of the series: 20 points, 6-20 FG, 8-23 FT
Wilt in the last 2 games of the series: 34 points, 10-29 FG, 14-38 FT


The Sixer team that just romped to the best record in the league during the regular season, was NOT the same team that lost a close game seven to the Celtics in the EDF's. HOFer Billy Cunningham did not play at all. And even without him, the Sixer still forged a 3-1 series lead. However, in game five, both starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones go down with leg injuries, and are worthless the rest of the series.

And of course, Duece forgot to mention the fact that Wilt was nursing an assortment of injuries, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three on. In fact, he had a partial tear of his quad muscle. All of which prompted Bill Russell to say, "A lessor man would not have played." Or, in other words, NO ONE else would have played under the same circumstances. We KNOW that KAJ would have missed those games, because he couldn't even play with a sprained ankle in a pivotal clinching title game. And we KNOW that Willis Reed either would not have played at all, or wuld have contributed absolutely nothing had he played (as he did in games 5-7 of the '70 Finals.)

Oh, and Wit averaged a 22 ppg, 25 rpg, .487 series....all while NOTICEABLY LIMPING. Of course, had the Sixers been healthy, including Wilt, like they wer in '67, it would surely have been a repeat of the 4-1 blowout win over Boston in that EDF's.

Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

Haha, you clown, was that the best you could do?

Olajuwon won in '94 while having teammates who were outplayed by the Knicks. Watch the finals and the playoffs and feel ashamed of your stupidity afterwards.

Olajuwon won while having Maxwell as his second best scorer, a player who averaged 13.8 points per game on 38% shooting in the playoffs in '94.

Wilt won while having HOF and all-stars next to him and yet he only managed to win two titles which is very lame.

You continue to make a omplete rfool of yourself. How about EWING's second best teammate? 17 ppg, on...get this... .368 shooting. In fact, Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, who was a considerably better player in that series thananyone that the Knicks had.

BTW, give me a list of the centers that Hakeem faced in that playoff run. The ACTUAL centers that he faced. It was as pathetic a cast of clowns as any all-time great center has ever faced. In fact, it was downight embarrassing.

How about Phoenix? 6-9 F AC Green, 6-9 300 lb tub of lard Oliver Miller, and the legendary Joe Kleine.

And as laughable as that group was...how about the Utah Jazz. Yep, the unstoppable Felton Spencer.

His 93-94 playoff run is the most over-rated piece of crap on this forum. He lucked out when MJ decided to take the year off.

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...


1968-69

76ers go 55-27 WITHOUT Wilt in the 1968-69 season.

Lakers (55-27) lose 4-3 WITH HCA AND AFTER HAVING 2-0 SERIES LEAD to the Celtics (48-34)

Celtics did not even win 50 games. Wilt's coach BENCHED Wilt for the final minutes of GAME 7 OF THE NBA FINALS.



First of all, the Sixers TRADED for Wilt (unlike the '93-94 Bulls, who basically had to piece meal something together after MJ retired.) And those two players accounted for 29 ppg and 15 rpg during the 67-68 season. Not only that, but in the first round of the playoffs, those two players averaged a combined a 36 ppg, 20rpg, and shot .510 from the field against Boston. The result? A 4-1 series blowout loss. And yet a crippled Wilt, missing half of his best players, carried a Sixer team to a game seven in the EDF's just a year earlier. And of course, the year before that, the Sixers went 68-13 and won a dominating world title.

Now, how about the Lakers? Well, Chamberlain not only had to replace the 29 ppg and 15 rpg lost in the trade, Gail Goodrich, and his 13 ppg and 3 rpg, was also lost in the expansion draft. Ho important was Goodrich in 67-68. Jerry West missed 31 games, and with Goodrich filling in for him, the LA went 19-12. So, the reality was, Chamberlain had to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg. Furthermore, West once again missed 20 games. And with all of that, the Lakers set a team w-l record for Los Angeles.

True, van Breda coached them right out of the Finals. He quit before he was fired, and was never worth a damn again. Meanwhile, a couple of years later Chamberlain delivered Los Angeles their first ever title.



1972-73

Lakers (60-22) lose 4-1 WITH HCA to the Knicks (57-25)

What a way for Wilt to end his career. Losing in the NBA Finals, check, while having HCA, double check. He was used to that.

Once again, Chamberlain has to endure injuries to his key teammates. And the 57-25 Knicks, with their SIX HOFers eked out four close wins (all games were decided in the last minute...and with margins of 4, 4, 5 and 9 points). With West essentially being worthless (shooting 5-17), the Lakers lose a clinching game five, despite Wilt, in his very last game being the best player on the floor (23 points, 21 rebounds, 9-16 shooting.)

[Flash31]

George "Mr. Basketball" Mikan - 5x World Champion

Wilt "The Stilt" Chamberlain - 2x World Champion

The level of dominance that George displayed during the playoffs was an incredible thing to watch.


Dominance,Wilt IS the RECORD BOOK

and two "World " Champion

no,National yeah but world never
especially not during the 50s,60s,70s
where Basketball was a regional thing and there were only 8-15 teams in the league and rarely any interanational players

Its like saying MLB or NFL are world champions

[Flash31]

Thats something Ive only seen Americans
and the US do

even now theres Toronto and thats it

Fiba,the olympics World Champions yeah
NBA(National) No

Unless youre facing other countries from all over the world
or your sport is singles like
Boxing,Tennis,Golf
then you can say World

but one country dont make the world now
come on

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain averaged 37 ppg 23 rpg and shot .467 (in a post-season that shot .403). In the clinching game three loss, Wilt outscores the Nats starting center, 7- Swede Halbrook, 33-7, and pulls down 23 rebounds. Wilt's tw bes teammates, Paul Arizin and Tom Gola shoot .328 and .206 respectively from the field, and overall, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shoot .332.
His team got SWEPT by a losing team! This has to be the only time in NBA history that has happened. Absolutely embarrassing. And again with your league FG% arguments. A league that averages 40.3% shooting sucks :oldlol:

The Warriors have a -2.1 ppg differential, and lose 35 games by single digits. And while Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .402 from the field (the worst team in the league shot .427), all Wilt does is lead the league in FIFTEEN of their 22 statistical categories. He runs away with the scoring title, at 4.8 ppg. He leads the league in rebounding, at 24.3 rpg and he sets a then FG mark of .528 (in a league that shot .441.) BTW, he also runs away with two advanced stats, WIN-SHARES, at 20.9 (so he was directly responsible for 70% of his teams wins), and PER, with an all-time mark of 31.8.
31-49 record while playing every game. That is probably a "Superstar" record for leading a team to the worst record ever. Interesting that Wilt's statistical peak resulted in his team playing the worst.

[deja vu]

WTF you have the years mixed up. :roll:

[millwad]

You continue to make a omplete rfool of yourself. How about EWING's second best teammate? 17 ppg, on...get this... .368 shooting.


This is laughable.

Ewing's second best teammate wasn't Starks, it was the PG Derek Harper who was great during the finals and who absolutely destroyed Kenny Smith.

Derek Harper over 7 games averaged: 16.4 points (47% shooting), 6 assists, 3 rebounds and 2.4 steals

Kenny Smith over 7 games averaged: 5.6 points (38% shooting), 3.1 assists and 1.4 rebounds

And it's funny, you mention Starks shooting but Maxwell was Houstons second best scoring player in the finals and he average 13.4 points on 36% shooting.

I love how easy you are to own time after time. You never watch the series and write out of your ass.



In fact, Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, who was a considerably better player in that series thananyone that the Knicks had.


Yet another lie.
Derek Harper was by far better than Otis in the finals. Otis averaged 9 points and 11 rebounds and it was a completele draw between Thorpe and Oakley in the finals.



BTW, give me a list of the centers that Hakeem faced in that playoff run. The ACTUAL centers that he faced. It was as pathetic a cast of clowns as any all-time great center has ever faced. In fact, it was downight embarrassing.

How about Phoenix? 6-9 F AC Green, 6-9 300 lb tub of lard Oliver Miller, and the legendary Joe Kleine.

And as laughable as that group was...how about the Utah Jazz. Yep, the unstoppable Felton Spencer.


His 93-94 playoff run is the most over-rated piece of crap on this forum. He lucked out when MJ decided to take the year off.

Haha, so butthurt.

Olajuwon took a team of role players and made them champions while having Maxwell as his second option on offense.

Olajuwon absolutely destroyed Ewing in the finals, a top 10 center who had better teammates around him compared to what Olajuwon had.

Olajuwon was the MVP, DPOY and the finals MVP and the Suns had Barkley, Majerle and Kevin Johnson, they were by far a more talented group.

The Jazz had Malone, Stockton and Hornacek and they were by far a more talented group.

Unlike Wilt, Olajuwon won against better teams while having mediocre squads. Wilt didn't win shit as the main option, he was a stat padding clown.

[AirFederer]

I like what I'm reading.

Mikan for me. I have him in my top 10. Criminally underrated. One of the greatest winner this game has seen :applause:

[Practice?]

Easily Wilt for me.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Mikan and it's not even close.

[Practice?]

I don't normally subscribe to the "weak era" notion, but I do make an exception for the very beginning of the NBA. Basketball was not as popular and therefore the talent came from a thinner pool. Additionally, black players were not even allowed in the NBA at first. The Harlem Globe Trotters were able to come in and whoop on the old white championship Lakers team, proving that some of the best talent wasn't even allowed in the NBA. If much of the best talent wasn't allowed in the NBA, that puts major asterisks on rings from that era. Once everybody was allowed, that is when you could really count championships as being more meaningful.

[ArbitraryWater]

Look at the RECORD BOOK.

And don't bring up RINGS, since they are a TEAM award.

That should answer "General Custer's" question.


Let's cherry pick some more stats then, shall we.

How about a PRIME SCORING Chamberlain, in his first seven seasons, vs a PRIME Kareem in his first seven seasons...

Post-season numbers:

KAJ averaged 29.7 ppg, 16.8 rpg, 4.0 apg, and shot .510.
Wilt averaged 32.8 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, and shot .505 from the field.

Furthermore, while KAJ outshot Wilt from the line, .696 to .523...guess what, Chamberlain MADE 70 MORE FTs. As always, Wilt's IMPACT from the line was greater.

AND, KAJ's "more efficient" FG% came in post-seasons that shot between .445 and .451 (and he didn't even play in the '75 and '76 post-seasons.) KAJ's .510 essentially came in post-seasons that shot about .447 on average.

Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in post-seasons that shot .402, .403, .411, .434, .420, .429, and .440. Chamberlain's .505 FG% came in NBA post-seasons that shot about .420 on average. So, yep, Chamberlain was MORE efficient against LEAGUE AVERAGE than Kareem was.


But let's carry this further.

How about KAJ's and Wilt's four seasons in the league together. Sice you seem to believe winning makes the better player...well, Chamberlain went to THREE Finals in those our seasons...Kareem...ONE.

In Chamberlain's 29 post-season series, I could only find one in which the opposing center outshot him from the field. And in that post-season, KAJ outshot Wilt by a .457 to .452 margin...BUT, he missed 107 shots to Wilt's 20.
And I couldn't find ONE in which a teammate outshot Wilt.

I can find several post-seasons in which KAJ was outshot, not only by opposing centers (and some badly), but even by teammates. Kareem had post-season series in which he shot .457, .437, .414, and even .405 (And this was a PRIME Kareem, in his greatest scoring season, and not only that, he was outshot and outscored by his opposing center in that series.)

Rebounding? Chamberlain was the leading rebounder in EVERY one of his 29 post-season series. KAJ? Hell, he was routinely outrebounded, and even POUNDED by opposing centers (Moses just killed him in the '83 Finals)..and even by teammates, including GUARDS.

A PRIME "Scoring" Chamberlain was not only never outscored in a playoff series, he was only outscored in two of the 52 games (and just barely.)

BTW, regarding teammates. In Wilt's 13 post-seasons, I could only find two post-seasons, and by TWO players that played anything resembling meaningful minutes, who shot over .500 from the floor. Dick Garrett with a .510 FG% (on 12.8 ppg) in '70, and Happy Hairston at .506 (on 17.0 ppg) in '71. That was IT. A TOTAL of TWO players, in his 13 post-seasons, that had ONE post-season with a FG% of higher than .500 (and both were just barely.)

Not only that, but Chamberlain's best scoring teammates had post-seasons of .328, .375, .352, .429, .432, and even West had a post-season of .376. Find me the seasons in which any other all-time great had such poor support. Meanwhile KAJ routinly had teammates shooting over 50%, including several in the same year. Hell, he had entire supporting castsa, aside from himself, shooting over 50% in a post-season ('86 for one.) And Worthy had post-seasons of .591, .599, and even .622.

And once again, find me a season in which KAJ carried his 40-40 team with a first round romp over a 48-32 team, and then to a game seven, one point loss against a 62-18 Celtic team, and with his teammates collectively shooting .412, (and oh, BTW, in that Celtic series, all Wilt did was average 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor.) Or take a 49-31 team thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss against a 60-20 Celtic team, all with his teammates collectively shooting .354 from the floor.

Once again, MJ played on FIVE losing teams. He was SWEPT twice. And how good were his teammates when he finally started winning rings. Quite frankly, almost good enough to win a title without him. In his 92-93 season, he led Chicago to a 57-25 record. He 'retired", and his team "fell" to a 55-27 record. Not only that, but they lost a close seven game series to a Knicks team that would lose a close seven game series to the Rockets in the Finals. And his teammates were even better in his next "three-peat."

Kobe? Hell, in his highest scoring season, he couldn't get his team past the first round, and as always, choked in the clinching game. In fact, has there ever been a "great" player who was on the end of more routs in his last playoff games each year? And even in his winning Finals, he seldom shot even crappy. He is a second fiddle in his first three titles; has a losing season without Shaq; and can't get to the Finals until LA steals Gasol.

Shaq? SWEPT six times, and nearly a seventh with a heavily-favored Laker team in '04.

Hakeem? He couldn't win a title until MJ stepped away, and then needed his TEAMMATES to badly outplay Shaq's the next year. Oh, and along the way...EIGHT FIRST ROUND EXITS.

Kareem? Where to begin? In his clinching game five blowout loss to the Knicks in '70, 132-96, Willis Reed shredded him with a 32 point game.

He did manage to win a title in '71, with a first round series win against the 41-41 Warriors; and WCF's win over a 48-34 Laker team that was missing both West and Baylor (and in a series in which Wilt statistically outplayed him); and then a sweeping win over the 42-40 Bullets in the Finals. Wow...that was impressive.

In his 71-72 post-season, he was outscored and outshot (and only shot .405) by Nate Thurmond in the first round of the playoffs. Then, he shot .414 over the course of his last four playoff games against Wilt in the '72 WCF's, and shot his 63-19 Bucks right out of the series.

In his 72-73 playoffs, in the first round, he single-handedly led his 60-22 team down in flames against Nate and his 47-35 Warriors, shooting just .428 in the process of a shocking series defeat.

In the 73-74 Finals, in a game seven on his home floor, he is badly outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens, and his Bucks are wiped out.

In 74-75, Oscar retires, and KAJ's Bucks immediately plummet to 38-44. They gladly ship him off, and still go 38-44 without him the next year. Meanwhile in that 75-76 season, KAJ's Lakers only go 40-42 and miss the playoffs.

In 76-77 KAJ's Lakers have the best record in the league, and are SWEPT in the WCF's by a 49-33 Blazer team.

In 77-78 KAJ's talent-laden Lakers, fielding Lou Hudson, Jammal Wilkes, and Adrian Dantley, get plastered in the first round of the playoffs by a Sonics team with one borderline HOF player. A 44-38 Bullets team wins the title.

In 78-79...see above. The Sonics wipe the floor with the Lakers in the second round, 4-1.

In 80-81 Moses outplays KAJ, and takes his 40-42 Rockets past KAJ's 54-28 Lakers.

In 82-83, Moses just crushes KAJ, and leads his Sixers to a SWEEP of the Lakers.

In 83-84, KAJ shoots 7-25 in a pivotal game five, and overall, only shoots .481 in the Finals, and his Lakers give away the series to a team that they should havev swept.

In 85-86, after completely annihilating Hakeem all season long, he chokes when Sampson guards him in the WCF's, and his Lakers are upset by the Rockets.

In 87-88, he contributes absolutely nothing to a title, and in the Finals, shoots .414, and has the worst game seven by an all-time great in NBA history.

In 88-89, Magic goes down with an injury in game two of the Finals...and the result is yet another sweeping loss for KAJ. He retires, and the Lakers dramatically improve to a 63-19 record.


Yep...Chamberlain leads the league in scoring, rebounding, and sets a FG% mark (remember that same thing in '63?) ...and in doing so, he takes his team to the best record in the league. No other player has ever come close to achieving that BTW.

And during the regular season, Wilt's Sixers went 6-3 against the Celtics. And in the process, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 from the field.

Ok, so in the EDF's against Boston, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. And yet his team was wiped out, 4-1. What happened? His teammates collectively shot .352 from the field in that serie. But yes, let's blame Wilt, even though he played the sme EXACT way against Boston that he did during the regular season.

The Sixer team that just romped to the best record in the league during the regular season, was NOT the same team that lost a close game seven to the Celtics in the EDF's. HOFer Billy Cunningham did not play at all. And even without him, the Sixer still forged a 3-1 series lead. However, in game five, both starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones go down with leg injuries, and are worthless the rest of the series.

And of course, Duece forgot to mention the fact that Wilt was nursing an assortment of injuries, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three on. In fact, he had a partial tear of his quad muscle. All of which prompted Bill Russell to say, "A lessor man would not have played." Or, in other words, NO ONE else would have played under the same circumstances. We KNOW that KAJ would have missed those games, because he couldn't even play with a sprained ankle in a pivotal clinching title game. And we KNOW that Willis Reed either would not have played at all, or wuld have contributed absolutely nothing had he played (as he did in games 5-7 of the '70 Finals.)

Oh, and Wit averaged a 22 ppg, 25 rpg, .487 series....all while NOTICEABLY LIMPING. Of course, had the Sixers been healthy, including Wilt, like they wer in '67, it would surely have been a repeat of the 4-1 blowout win over Boston in that EDF's.

Okay, I get all this, I'm taking it into consideration...

HOWEVER

BOILED DOWN:::

Mikan: 5

Wilt: 2

[riseagainst]

Mikan is a 5 time champion.

Wilt can keep his 100 point game and 50/25 losing seasons.

[Marchesk]

Okay, I get all this, I'm taking it into consideration...

HOWEVER

BOILED DOWN:::

Mikan: 5

Wilt: 2

Kinda of like saying, yeah I get all that MJ did, HOWEVER BOILED DOWN:::

Sam Jones 10
Michael Jordan 6

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Kinda of like saying, yeah I get all that MJ did, HOWEVER BOILED DOWN:::

Sam Jones 10
Michael Jordan 6

Mikan was the best player on his team and far more statistically dominant in his prime than Wilt in the post-season.

[Prometheus]

Hmmm... great thread :applause:

kickin knowledge from the old school

At this point, I'll take the 5 years of Mikan. I feel as though maybe laz could persuade me otherwise... he just needs to really put some effort into his arguments.

But yeah, I'll take Mikan by very far actually.