Is Rick Barry underrated?

[SacJB Shady]

Career Totals: 24.8 PPG, 6.7 Rebounds, 4.9 assists, and 2 steals. No 3 point line all but one year in the NBA, though played 4 years in the ABA. 89.3 percent free throw percentage shooting underhand and won a ring being a huge underdog with inexperienced teammates.

[Round Mound]

[B]He is White What Do You Expect? Also, He Is Not a Dunker or Has Flashy Handles So Most Kids Today Won

[LJJ]

I always hear he was a huge asshole. That might not matter when you are Jordan, but at the slightly lower levels of greatness it becomes important you have people's sympathy and have people speaking up on your behalf.

[pudman13]

Agreed that Barry's personality is a main reason people don't like to give him the credit he deserves as a player.

I would also suggest that he's underrated in part because his most productive years are virtually undocumented on video. I would absolutely love to see some full games from his 66-69 scoring peak. He also scuttled his own career a bit by sitting out one of his prime athletic years and then playing in the ABA before anyone paid attention to it.

There is video footage available of his performance in the '75 finals and it was absolutely dominating, and in a way it's even more amazing to see him in the 1975 all star game where he had an amazing 8 steals. He was an incredibly quick player. He also was a tremendous passer.

[Marchesk]

He averaged 40.8 points in the finals in a losing cause against Wilt's great 1967 76ers team.

He had four seasons where he averaged over 30 a game, including one in 74-75 when the pace had slowed a bit.

Yeah, he's a bit overlooked. Maybe playing in the ABA part of his career is some of the reason.

[Owl]

Career Totals: 24.8 PPG, 6.7 Rebounds, 4.9 assists, and 2 steals. No 3 point line all but one year in the NBA, though played 4 years in the ABA. 89.3 percent free throw percentage shooting underhand and won a ring being a huge underdog with inexperienced teammates.
Counterpoints would be:

- Didn't claim a single MVP in a weak (early) ABA
- Steal numbers reliant on gambling. Not a strong defender in general.
- Supposedly awful teammate (including BS* allegations that he refused to shoot in '76 conference finals 2nd half out of spite)
- possibly dubious efficiency (not sure on this one, would ideally have league average ts%) a quick look makes me think he was high usage (sometimes very high), average efficiency which certainly has some value though perhaps not an ideal way to build a contender.
- '75 a fluke? As much credit as he gets from that, he loses from the heavily favoured '76 team (still had Phil Smith, Jamaal Wilkes, Clifford Ray et all plus added Gus Williams)'s embarassing crash out to a very average Phoenix Suns team.

*= Bill Simmons though quite plausibly the other kind too.

Anyway an amazing passer for a forward, great ability to create shots and awesome at the line (and in his early years took advantage of this by getting to the line often).

[Lebron23]

He's a top 5 SF. I like his arrogance and swagger on and the court. I actually rank him above Scottie Pippen because he won an NBA Finals MVP in 1975.

One of the best scorers in NBA and ABA History.

[Collie]

Didn't Rick Barry play during a time when the MVP was voted on by the other players? He could have won the 75 MVP, but Mac was ridiculous that year.

Also, the guy played during the 70's, which was practically the worst time to be an NBA superstar in terms of recognition.

[oarabbus]

Didn't Rick Barry play during a time when the MVP was voted on by the other players? He could have won the 75 MVP, but Mac was ridiculous that year.

Also, the guy played during the 70's, which was practically the worst time to be an NBA superstar in terms of recognition.


He was universally hated in the league. I mean everyone ****ing despised the guy, including his own teammates. He was a racist bastard but even the white guys hated him so he must have been a real dick beyond just the racism.

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k1ZM_K5L8g

38 points in Game 3 of the 1975 NBA Finals.


29.5 ppg on 44.4 FG%, 5.0 apg, 4.0 rpg, 3.5 spg, 0.8 bpg. in 4 games vs. Bullets.

His 2nd and 3rd scoring option both averaged under 12 ppg in that series.

[Akrazotile]

He was universally hated in the league. I mean everyone ****ing despised the guy, including his own teammates. He was a racist bastard but even the white guys hated him so he must have been a real dick beyond just the racism.


Are there examples or is this just stuff thats kinda been passed down through the grape vine? Im not doubting it, just curious what exactly he said or did that created such a lasting impression.

[BasedTom]

1. played for the university of miami and not a massive basketball school like unc, duke, indiana, etc
2. played in the ABA
3. hopped a lot between teams in general
4. has a reputation as a curmudgeon
5. played in the 70s, a decade that unfortunately gets forgotten (when it comes to basketball)

[Lebron23]

He was universally hated in the league. I mean everyone ****ing despised the guy, including his own teammates. He was a racist bastard but even the white guys hated him so he must have been a real dick beyond just the racism.


Are there examples or is this just stuff thats kinda been passed down through the grape vine? Im not doubting it, just curious what exactly he said or did that created such a lasting impression.


That's what I head about him. He's Mr Politically Incorrect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pjhl1G1W-c


An unflattering 1983 Sports Illustrated profile by Tony Kornheiser cemented his poor reputation, featuring a string of stinging quotes from old teammates and associates:

“He had a bad attitude. He was always looking down at you.”—Robert Parish
“[H]e lacks diplomacy. If they sent him to the U.N. he’d end up starting World War III.”—Mike Dunleavy
“You’ll never find a bunch of players sitting around talking about the good old days with Rick. His teammates and opponents generally and thoroughly detested him.”—former Warriors executive Ken Macker

[Akrazotile]

Hah, damn.


What an alpha :pimp:

[oarabbus]

Are there examples or is this just stuff thats kinda been passed down through the grape vine? Im not doubting it, just curious what exactly he said or did that created such a lasting impression.





Barry is well known for two things: his subversive, iconoclastic underhanded free throw and his role as the most arrogant, impossible son of a bitch ever to play the game of basketball. Nobody got along with the guy. Even in his oddly premature autobiography, Confessions of a Basketball Gypsy (which, when it was released in 1972, was expected to be a kind-of apologia for his behavior), Barry admitted that he’d once punched a nun. In the same book, his own mother called him greedy.


During the second half of Game 5 of the 1981 NBA Finals, CBS play-by-play man Gary Bender drew attention to a 1956 Olympic team photograph, one in which Russell, the African-American basketball legend, was smiling ear to ear. Barry, working alongside Russell as an on-air analyst, commented jokingly, “It looks like some fool over there [Russell] with that, um, that big watermelon grin."






http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2013/11/rick_barry_free_agency_one_of_the_biggest_jerks_in _basketball_history_is.single.html


http://books.google.com/books?id=oLCSBeuStRcC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=rick+barry+bill+russell+watermelon&source=bl&ots=SMBnaFta9r&sig=0GCK4wVd4LQE-_KEXF4SQ728im8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yYdpUoyuI8XK4AOzloC4BA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=rick%20barry%20bill%20russell%20watermelon&f=false
"Watermelon Grin" excerpt



another piece on Barry: http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/13/3758698/rick-barry-underhand-free-throw-nba

[Akrazotile]

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2013/11/rick_barry_free_agency_one_of_the_biggest_jerks_in _basketball_history_is.single.html


http://books.google.com/books?id=oLCSBeuStRcC&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=rick+barry+bill+russell+watermelon&source=bl&ots=SMBnaFta9r&sig=0GCK4wVd4LQE-_KEXF4SQ728im8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yYdpUoyuI8XK4AOzloC4BA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=rick%20barry%20bill%20russell%20watermelon&f=false
"Watermelon Grin" excerpt



another piece on Barry: http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2012/12/13/3758698/rick-barry-underhand-free-throw-nba


Lol damn.

Wtf would cbs put him in the broadcast booth if hes clearly that type of dude. I mean its hilarious that they did it but what a dumb move on their part.

[oarabbus]

Lol damn.

Wtf would cbs put him in the broadcast booth if hes clearly that type of dude. I mean its hilarious that they did it but what a dumb move on their part.

I don't know man, but the best (worst) part? That previous debacle was during the the '81 NBA finals, and



Barry eventually found himself a second life on TBS, providing play-by-play for the '85 Eastern Finals with - you're not gonna believe this - Bill Russell! Who's the genius who came up with that idea? That was like Mike Tyson getting freed from jail and immediately hosting the 1996 Miss Black Teen USA pageant.

:lol

[Helix]

Barry apologized to Russell, and Russell accepted, and yes, a couple of years later they were teamed up doing games for TBS. They were quite good, too, at least I thought so. Barry was really good at play by play, and as a commentator/analyst, so was Russell. Watching them together and listening to them there was never any indication of any kind of problem between them. There was a pretty good chemistry between them.

[T_L_P]

Just look at Barry's hair. No way he'd be dominant in today's game.

lol not sarcasm.

[pudman13]

The "watermelon grin" comment sounds awful, but I believe him when he said he never thought of it as a racist term. His early teammate Nate Thurmond had very positive things to say about him, and there's no other evidence of him being racist. He was an equal opportunity jerk, rather than a prejudiced one.

[hawksdreamfan44]

Yeah, he's definitely underrated.

[kunk75]

1. played for the university of miami and not a massive basketball school like unc, duke, indiana, etc
2. played in the ABA
3. hopped a lot between teams in general
4. has a reputation as a curmudgeon
5. played in the 70s, a decade that unfortunately gets forgotten (when it comes to basketball)

6. White

[pudman13]

6. White

This was before the days of Larry Bird, but Nate Thurmond said that along with Jerry West, Barry was one of the two best white players he'd ever seen, played with, or played against.

[KyrieTheFuture]

He is, but he was exceptionally unlikable in a forgettable era (however rightly or wrongly). I feel for him, one of the top 5 players I wish I had a chance to see play.

[stanlove1111]

[QUOTE=Lebron23]He's a top 5 SF. I like his arrogance and swagger on and the court. I actually rank him above Scottie Pippen because he won an NBA Finals MVP in 1975.

One of the best scorers in NBA and ABA History.[/QUO

This is just another example of how silly the finals MVP obsession is. I can't believe you guys pull this all the time. The reason that Barry has one and Pippen didn't couldn't have anything to do with Pippen playing with MJ and Barry not playing with MJ could it..If I ran this board you would be banned for 2 weeks for that because its so ridiculous.


Pippen might have played great in 6 finals but didn't win an mvp because he played with Jordan but Barry played great in one so he is the better player..

[stanlove1111]

The "watermelon grin" comment sounds awful, but I believe him when he said he never thought of it as a racist term. His early teammate Nate Thurmond had very positive things to say about him, and there's no other evidence of him being racist. He was an equal opportunity jerk, rather than a prejudiced one.

Exactly..People who lave to make everything about race are of course going to try to use this as an example of racism when it obviously could just be he didn't understand the term. But as you notice not one of the poster who has commented on this ever even considered that obviously possibility..I saw it at the time and didn't understand that it was a racist term either as I am sure a lot of people didn't.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The "watermelon grin" comment sounds awful, but I believe him when he said he never thought of it as a racist term. His early teammate Nate Thurmond had very positive things to say about him, and there's no other evidence of him being racist. He was an equal opportunity jerk, rather than a prejudiced one.

^This.

And yea, Barry was an asshole many times - even to some teammates unlike someone like Zeke who was only that to some opponents and so on - but that man could flat-out ball... Plus, yes he's very underrated these days. 6# greatest SF ever, in my book.

[JellyBean]

No. He is probably rated. The dude is among the 50 greatest NBA players.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This is just another example of how silly the finals MVP obsession is. I can't believe you guys pull this all the time. The reason that Barry has one and Pippen didn't couldn't have anything to do with Pippen playing with MJ and Barry not playing with MJ could it..If I ran this board you would be banned for 2 weeks for that because its so ridiculous.


Pippen might have played great in 6 finals but didn't win an mvp because he played with Jordan but Barry played great in one so he is the better player..

Pippen couldn't lead the Bulls to the Finals when Jordan 1st retired... They were close, Scottie played just great all year and led them to many wins, but he couldn't get a ring, not even get to the Finals.

And when you compare teammates/opponents (from Barry and Pippen, in 1975vs1994)... Rick most likely gets more "credit", and he won it all also, which is major here.

Rick was simply better scorer (in most "facets" of it), definitely a better shoter too, had higher offensive IQ and was a better pure passer although it's probably a wash when talking about play-making (Barry played more off-ball though).
I believe Pippen gets the edge as a rebounder and he was clearly a better defensive-player although Barry was a good one himself.

Barry was also the alpha-dog for most of his career, unlike Pippen. He made more all-nba 1st teams, finished top5 in MVP voting more times...

Overall, at their best, if I'm looking for a #1 option, the main man to lead my team I'm picking Barry... If I already had that, I'm picking Pippen over someone like Rick.

[stanlove1111]

Pippen couldn't lead the Bulls to the Finals when Jordan 1st retired... They were close, Scottie played just great all year and led them to many wins, but he couldn't get a ring, not even get to the Finals.

And when you compare teammates/opponents (from Barry and Pippen, in 1975vs1994)... Rick most likely gets more "credit", and he won it all also, which is major here.

Rick was simply better scorer (in most "facets" of it), definitely a better shoter too, had higher offensive IQ and was a better pure passer although it's probably a wash when talking about play-making (Barry played more off-ball though).
I believe Pippen gets the edge as a rebounder and he was clearly a better defensive-player although Barry was a good one himself.

Barry was also the alpha-dog for most of his career, unlike Pippen. He made more all-nba 1st teams, finished top5 in MVP voting more times...

Overall, at their best, if I'm looking for a #1 option, the main man to lead my team I'm picking Barry... If I already had that, I'm picking Pippen over someone like Rick.


To me they are basically so different that its hard to compare..I agree it would depend on what you needed.

My point was is just saying one has a finals MVP so that makes him better is way too simplistic.

[Pointguard]

very very Underated. I seen a clip when he got mad after a fight broke out in the playoffs and totally went off and won the series. He could really take over a game. Major jerk. I seen the clip of him and Russell, he knew what he was doing, humans can tell when they freeze the air.

[bizil]

I don't think Barry is vastly underrated. At one time, he was regarded as a top 2 GOAT SF. Plus even today, he's still arguably a top 5 GOAT SF. I think those who know the game know how sick Barry was. And he redefined the SF position. Other than his attitude (which many didn't like), he's remembered fondly for his skill level.

But in a sense, I don't know if many people realize he redefined the SF position in a BIG WAY! He was really the next guy after Baylor to do so. U didn't see a 6'7 player with point forward kind of skills, a very good-great rebounder, and a true alpha dog with such a complete scoring skillset back then.

In many ways, he was like Larry Bird before Bird came around. Bird was bigger and added PF kind of size. Plus Bird was able to exploit the new age three ball line more. In terms of total offensive skill level (scoring skillset and passing as a package) at the SF, he only takes a backseat to Bird TO THIS DAY!

[Legends66NBA7]

Definitely, at least today. If he never went to the ABA he would have been even more decorated but probably even more hated.

Is he really considered "Larry Bird before Larry Bird" ?

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't think Barry is vastly underrated. At one time, he was regarded as a top 2 GOAT SF. Plus even today, he's still arguably a top 5 GOAT SF. I think those who know the game know how sick Barry was. And he redefined the SF position. Other than his attitude (which many didn't like), he's remembered fondly for his skill level.

But in a sense, I don't know if many people realize he redefined the SF position in a BIG WAY! He was really the next guy after Baylor to do so. U didn't see a 6'7 player with point forward kind of skills, a very good-great rebounder, and a true alpha dog with such a complete scoring skillset back then.

In many ways, he was like Larry Bird before Bird came around. In terms of total offensive skill level (scoring skillset and passing as a package) at the SF, he only takes a backseat to Bird TO THIS DAY!

Just asked that myself. :oldlol:

[pudman13]

Definitely, at least today. If he never went to the ABA he would have been even more decorated but probably even more hated.

Is he really considered "Larry Bird before Larry Bird" ?

Yeah, because he's white. :-P

One way he does resemble Bird is that he was such a good passer and ballhandler from the forward position. Then again, so was Baylor, who doesn't get credit for his passing because he's mostly remembered for his scoring/moves.

Bird was a better rebounder, though, and also a better shooter, even though Barry was very good. Bird is also significantly bigger. Bird was also more unselfish. Look at the difference in their FG percentages.

[bizil]

Definitely, at least today. If he never went to the ABA he would have been even more decorated but probably even more hated.

Is he really considered "Larry Bird before Larry Bird" ?

The old school fans said he was Bird before Bird. But a smaller version. I can see that comparison in a sense. I think in the same way Baylor and Dr. J was a great parallel, u could say the same for Barry and Bird. And in terms of the great two way point forward style, I will give that godfather title to Hondo. Who guys like Pippen, Hill, and Lebron are a great parallel to.

[pudman13]

The old school fans said he was Bird before Bird. But a smaller version. I can see that comparison in a sense. I think in the same way Baylor and Dr. J was a great parallel, u could say the same for Barry and Bird.

For what it's worth, both Dr. J and Barry said the same thing in their biographies: Elgin Baylor was their role model.

[bizil]

Yeah, because he's white. :-P

One way he does resemble Bird is that he was such a good passer and ballhandler from the forward position. Then again, so was Baylor, who doesn't get credit for his passing because he's mostly remembered for his scoring/moves.

Bird was a better rebounder, though, and also a better shooter, even though Barry was very good. Bird is also significantly bigger. Bird was also more unselfish. Look at the difference in their FG percentages.


I think blueprint wise, Bird and Barry is the proper parallel. Baylor and Dr. J blueprint wise is the proper parallel. Both Doc and Baylor had underrated all around games, with their passing being at the forefront of being underappreciated. They weren't on Bird, Barry, Pippen, Hondo or Bron level of passing. But they were clearly better passers than guys like King, Nique, Dantley, Melo, etc.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't think Barry is vastly underrated. At one time, he was regarded as a top 2 GOAT SF. Plus even today, he's still arguably a top 5 GOAT SF. I think those who know the game know how sick Barry was. And he redefined the SF position. Other than his attitude (which many didn't like), he's remembered fondly for his skill level.

But in a sense, I don't know if many people realize he redefined the SF position in a BIG WAY! He was really the next guy after Baylor to do so. U didn't see a 6'7 player with point forward kind of skills, a very good-great rebounder, and a true alpha dog with such a complete scoring skillset back then.

In many ways, he was like Larry Bird before Bird came around. Bird was bigger and added PF kind of size. Plus Bird was able to exploit the new age three ball line more. In terms of total offensive skill level (scoring skillset and passing as a package) at the SF, he only takes a backseat to Bird TO THIS DAY!
That was in 1980.

In todays world, I've seen the likes of Pippen and even Pierce listed before him. He can be argued above Dr. J and LeBron. I can see cases being made.

I think it goes (in nor order):

Barry
Baylor
Bird
Erving
Havlicek
James

[bizil]

For what it's worth, both Dr. J and Barry said the same thing in their biographies: Elgin Baylor was their role model.

Yep I remember both guys saying that. Barry was a great slasher, an even better slasher than Bird. So in that sense, I'm sure Barry picked that up from Elgin. I just think Barry added more shooting ability and passing ability to the slashing he picked up from Elgin. Now we know he wasn't a freak athlete like Elgin or as powerful. But Barry was still quick, crafty, and unstoppable going to the rack.

[pudman13]

Yep I remember both guys saying that. Barry was a great slasher, an even better slasher than Bird. So in that sense, I'm sure Barry picked that up from Elgin. I just think Barry added more shooting ability and passing ability to the slashing he picked up from Elgin. Now we know he wasn't a freak athlete like Elgin or as powerful. But Barry was still quick, crafty, and unstoppable going to the rack.

Barry in his first couple of years is right up near the top of my list of people I wish I could see on video. I think we'd be very surprised by how athletic he was at the time.

[bizil]

That was in 1980.

In todays world, I've seen the likes of Pippen and even Pierce listed before him. He can be argued above Dr. J and LeBron. I can see cases being made.

I think it goes (in nor order):

Barry
Baylor
Bird
Erving
Havlicek
James

I agree with u. That's why I said he's not vastly underrated. Which means he's underrated in a sense. In particular for totally redefining the SF position. I've seen lists with Pippen ahead of him (which I don't agree with at all). But I've never seen a list with Pierce rated ahead of him! DAMN! If that's the case then Barry is CLEARLY UNDERRATED by whoever made that list. And those who bought into that list. At best, The Truth is the 9th or 10th GOAT SF.

If were are talking NBA careers strictly, Barry can be argued over Doc. But for me personally, I consider Doc the GOAT SF in professional basketball history (ABA and NBA combined). His resume and impact in my book is the best of all time.

[bizil]

Barry in his first couple of years is right up near the top of my list of people I wish I could see on video. I think we'd be very surprised by how athletic he was at the time.

I think he would be too! From what I've seen in a couple of clips, he had a very quick first step to the rack. To me that's one key difference between he and Bird. Barry was more of swingman than Bird. For me, Barry's secondary position would be as a SG. While Bird's secondary position was PF, a position he played quite a bit as we all know.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree with u. That's why I said he's not vastly underrated. Which means he's underrated in a sense. In particular for totally redefining the SF position. I've seen lists with Pippen ahead of him (which I don't agree with at all). But I've never seen a list with Pierce rated ahead of him. At best, The Truth is the 9th or 10th GOAT SF.

If were are talking NBA careers strictly, Barry can be argued over Doc. But for me personally, I consider Doc the GOAT SF in professional basketball history (ABA and NBA combined). His resume and impact in my book is the best of all time.
Pippen belongs in the group with:

Arizin
Cunningham
Durant
Pippen
Wilkins
Worthy


Than:
Anthony
Dandridge
Dantley
English
Hill
King
Mullin
Pierce

[bizil]

Pippen belongs in the group with:

Arizin
Cunningham
Durant
Pippen
Wilkins
Worthy


Than:
Anthony
Dandridge
Dantley
English
Hill
King
Mullin
Pierce

Yep I agree with those groups! I don't see how anybody could rate Pierce over Barry GOAT wise. Not taking anything away from Pierce because he's a great player and will be in the HOF. But Barry was the best SF in the world once Baylor was winding down. And held that distinction for many years. A peak Doc and a peak Barry is a tie in my opinion.

[pudman13]

I think it's likely that eventually Durant will end up in that top tier.

How about Nowitzki? Is he not listed because he's considered a PF?

[L.Kizzle]

I think it's likely that eventually Durant will end up in that top tier.

How about Nowitzki? Is he not listed because he's considered a PF?
Most people have Dirk listed as a PF. Yeah, he played SF for a season or two, but so did Kevin Garnett.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yeah, because he's white. :-P

One way he does resemble Bird is that he was such a good passer and ballhandler from the forward position. Then again, so was Baylor, who doesn't get credit for his passing because he's mostly remembered for his scoring/moves.

Bird was a better rebounder, though, and also a better shooter, even though Barry was very good. Bird is also significantly bigger. Bird was also more unselfish. Look at the difference in their FG percentages.

Both great passers from the SF position (Bird being better) but also both great shooters.
I mean, Larry's arguably the GOAT overall shooter but let's not underrate Barry's shooting, he was great at it and had range, not as much as LB but he had range.
He wasn't as tall/big as Bird though and couldn't work in the post quite as well... And yea, Larry also was more unselfish while having better shot selection but Rick was also a high IQ player (when he "wanted" to), with great footwork and great soft-touch from close-range.

Always amazes me to see Barry backing up from like 20 feet and then proceeding to hit contested turnaroud-faders with "ease". He could shoot/score that thing.
And he also rebounded some while playing D...

Rick was also a pretty good athlete, similar to his son Brent (well, the other way around).

[oarabbus]

Rick Barry > Pippen?

[Marchesk]

Rick Barry > Pippen?

Yes

[TheBigVeto]

He's white so automatically underrated