Finals MVP is the most important stat...

[Connor B]

...in measuring all time greats. It roots out the retarded Michael Jordan argument of, in his case, "5 beats 1 (now 2)" in the case of Kobe and Lebron. I really don't want to make this thread about Kobe and Lebron, but it is a good example...Kobe may have more rings, but both guys have the same number of FMVPs, meaning they were the best and/or most impactful players during each of those Finals.

Now of course you don't want to really take away Kobe's first three rings because he was important to that team's success - so think of it this way - if you could replace Lebron at the same age (and in this case time of his career since they both came in at 18) with Kobe, do the Lakers still win? I think the answer is an obvious yes. Kobe whined and demanded to be traded to the Lakers (sorry but that's what happened) and Lebron got stuck in Cleveland. This discussion of "would player y have player x's rings had they replaced player x on their given team" allows us to measure the value of player x's extra rings.

From here, we can add up all the other stats and crap and come to the conclusion that at this point we should...just **** off cause both guys are still playing.

[Doranku]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

[Fudge]

/thread

[riseagainst]

OP: don't want this to turn into a kobe vs lebron debate.
then decides to write half a block of sh1t on kobe vs lebron.*

anyway OP is a fakkit.

[Kyle_korver]

billups?

[Mr Exlax]

Dirk has one FMVP so he's better than Malone and Barkley combined.

[tpols]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?
Not only that, but if Lebron was on LA he wouldn't have won any FMVP with shaq facing the front courts he did in the finals. So Bron could've played just like he has and I guess those rings wouldn't count according to op

[Doranku]

Not only that, but if Lebron wouldn't have won any FMVP with shaq facing the front courts he did in the finals. So Bron could've played just like he has and I guess those rings wouldn't count according to op

That's assuming what the OP says is even true in that LeBron could replace Kobe and the Lakers would still win.

Kobe has won twice as the man, and the Heat were the most stacked team (easily) in the league during each of the past two years. With the mediocre competition both years, there's no reason to think that a prime Kobe wouldn't win both years with that Heat squad.

Now LeBron on the other hand? How do we know he could effectively play second banana to Shaq? His off-the-ball movement is terrible today, and even worse when he was 21-23.

Kobe killed the Blazers, Spurs, Kings, etc. with his jump shooting ability during those '00-'02 runs. Bronzy's jumper was broke as hell at that age. 21-23 year old Bronzy w/ Shaq just isn't a good pairing. There' no way they have the same success as Kobe/Shaq and 3peat.

Not a chance.

So basically, OP's logic is retarded and his assumptions are wrong. Great thread OP. f@ggot

[tmacattack33]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?

This is not at all true.

Lebron's one of a kind versatility is what got Miami through last year's playoffs with Chris Bosh being injured for two rounds.

Lebron was able to step into the PF role and provided the necessary rebounding and necessary size and defense against the opposing bigs. Kobe would not have done that. MJ could not have even done that. And no, no other Miami back up big man could have done that either...Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard are terrible.

[tpols]

This is not at all true.

Lebron's one of a kind versatility is what got Miami through last year's playoffs with Chris Bosh being injured for two rounds.

Lebron was able to step into the PF role and provided the necessary rebounding and necessary size and defense against the opposing bigs. Kobe would not have done that. MJ could not have even done that. And no, no other Miami back up big man could have done that either...Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard are terrible.
If kobe or mj were on the team the whole dynamic would be completely different.

Lebron works best as a drive and dish to 3 pt shooters. Bosh last year took more threes in the playoffs than all the other years in his career combined. He was pushed out to the perimeter to Accommodate Lebron's game.

Bosh is a smart passer, good slasher, and great midrange shooter from the high post and playing with Lebron forced him into a completely new, shitty role where he wasn't allowed near the basket so that the big men guarding him wouldn't be able to protect the rim as well on Lebron drives.

MJ and kobe were great at playing a two man in and out game and would compliment the former 24/11 first option and 19/9 third option Bosh much better. Bosh would be a 20/10 player with mj or Kobe easy.

And wades slashing game combined with mj/Kobe's midrange game would make that pair less redundant. The east competition was a joke and the heat would've finished the Spurs off twice as fast if Lebron wasn't scared to shoot.. Plus kobe has always had outstanding success against the Spurs defense.

[Nash]

And if you replace LeBron with 27 and 28 year old Kobe for the last two years, the Heat would still win the championship too you idiot.

What's your point?
You mean Kobe would carry the team with no front court, Wade on 1 knee and Bosh being injured for a good deal of the playoffs in 2012?

Kobe would have to lead a team with Joel Anthoony, Haslem, Turiaf, Juwan Howard, and Dexter Pittman in the front court. Also he would have to become a PF like Lebron because it was needed and I'm pretty sure Kobe can't be used as a PF.

Also he needs to lead the team in pts, apg and rpg while having sky high PER to fill in for Wade on 1 knee, lack of frount court and Bosh's absence in 2012.

Yeah, also tiny detail. Beat an OKC team that ran over the whole Western Conference with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka AND Harden.

Good luck.

[tmacattack33]

If kobe or mj were on the team the whole dynamic would be completely different.

Lebron works best as a drive and dish to 3 pt shooters. [B]Bosh last year took more threes in the playoffs than all the other years in his career combined. He was pushed out to the perimeter to Accommodate Lebron's game.

Bosh is a smart passer, good slasher, and great midrange shooter from the high post and playing with Lebron forced him into a completely new, shitty role where he wasn't allowed near the basket so that the big men guarding him wouldn't be able to protect the rim as well on Lebron drives.

MJ and kobe were great at playing a two man in and out game and would compliment the former 24/11 first option and 19/9 third option Bosh much better. Bosh would be a 20/10 player with mj or Kobe easy. [B]

And wades slashing game combined with mj/Kobe's midrange game would make that pair less redundant. The east competition was a joke and the heat would've finished the Spurs off twice as fast if Lebron wasn't scared to shoot.. Plus kobe has always had outstanding success against the Spurs defense.

Many questionable things in that whole post...but the main was is that I guess you just ignored the main part of my post where I said that Bosh was injured for two rounds of last year's playoffs. LOL.

[VIntageNOvel]

related : http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310167 :cheers:

[tpols]

Many questionable things in that whole post...but the main was is that I guess you just ignored the main part of my post where I said that Bosh was injured for two rounds of last year's playoffs. LOL.
If it's questionable explain why. Bosh was in a new role this year.. A much worse one for his playing style. All of the numbers back it up and if you saw the games it was obvious he was pushed out to the perimeter and featured far less.. No PnR with Bron like in their first year together where he put up 19/9.. In place of that was the drive and dish 3pt shooters game. And that's fine because it worked. But I do not want to hear that Bosh was no longer capable because he was excluded from the gameplan based on his first options playstyle

Would been a completely different system with Kobe or mj who complimented big men and the in and out game much better.


And Yea Bosh was injured during their playoff series in the east.. Where competition was old or subpar and Wade although slightly injured was still having monster games at critical points in series. But yes would've been tougher to dominate Okc like Bron did. Still possible to win just tougher.

That shit with Dallas though in 2011? Doesnt happen with Kobe or mj.. That mental collapse was worse than anything any superstar has ever done and Miami was very clearly in control early and a much much better team

So it evens out either way

[Unbiased_one]

If it's questionable explain why. Bosh was in a new role this year.. A much worse one for his playing style. All of the numbers back it up and if you saw the games it was obvious he was pushed out to the perimeter and featured far less.. No PnR with Bron like in their first year together where he put up 19/9.. In place of that was the drive and dish 3pt shooters game. And that's fine because it worked. But I do not want to hear that Bosh was no longer capable because he was excluded from the gameplan based on his first options playstyle

Would been a completely different system with Kobe or mj who complimented big men and the in and out game much better.


And Yea Bosh was injured during their playoff series in the east.. Where competition was old or subpar and Wade although slightly injured was still having monster games at critical points in series. But yes would've been tougher to dominate Okc like Bron did. Still possible to win just tougher.

That shit with Dallas though in 2011? Doesnt happen with Kobe or mj.. That mental collapse was worse than anything any superstar has ever done and Miami was very clearly in control early and a much much better team

So it evens out either way

Kobe in the 2004 finals was worse than lebron in 2011 so I'm not sure why you think Kobe would have won in those (although he may well have). What's for sure is that Kobe has never displayed the level of play that the heat needed from lebron these past two postseasons.

[riseagainst]

Kobe in the 2004 finals was worse than lebron in 2011 so I'm not sure why you think Kobe would have won in those (although he may well have). What's for sure is that Kobe has never displayed the level of play that the heat needed from lebron these past two postseasons.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[VIntageNOvel]

someone already forget 2011 final

somebody help to remind him with 2007 & 2011 bron final stat :lol

[Unbiased_one]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What makes you think he was better? Yes lebron was terrible in 4 th quarters, and pretty bad all round, but Kobe was just flat out terrible. What makes it even worse was the fact he had prime shaq shooting 63% and he still wouldn't pass to him.

[Unbiased_one]

someone already forget 2011 final

somebody help to remind him with 2007 & 2011 bron final stat :lol

I don't think anyone will ever forget how bad lebron was in 2011. I'm just curious why Kobe gets a pass for an even worse performance.

[tpols]

Kobe in the 2004 finals was worse than lebron in 2011 so I'm not sure why you think Kobe would have won in those (although he may well have). What's for sure is that Kobe has never displayed the level of play that the heat needed from lebron these past two postseasons.
Knew this would come up.. And tell me if you disagree with this.

We're the 04 pistons not one of the greatest defensive teams of all time? Much better than the 11 Mavs?

Wasn't kobe at the end of his partnership with shaq and fueding with him?

If you look at the circumstances, who is kobe fueding with in his very first year playing with Wade and Bosh? It wouldn't happen.. Maybe later down the line but even then if a past prime wade could take a back seat to peak Lebron he could do some of the same with Kobe.. Something peak Shaq couldn't and shouldn't ever do.


So it doesn't make sense to predict a bad performance based on a bunch of built up factors that wouldn't be present in an alternate situation. And to not take into account era defensive rules or the fact that your comparing a pretty good defensive team to the GOAT is even more shortsighted.

[Odinn]

Kobe's 2004 Finals <= LeBron's 2011 Finals < LeBron's 2007 Finals <= Kobe's 2008 Finals

---

As for the thread title;

Tony Parker & Chauncey Billups > Oscar Robertson, Jason Kidd, Walt Frazier, John Stockton, Gary Payton, Steve Nash

Right?

[Unbiased_one]

Knew this would come up.. And tell me if you disagree with this.

We're the 04 pistons not one of the greatest defensive teams of all time? Much better than the 11 Mavs?

Wasn't kobe at the end of his partnership with shaq and fueding with him?

If you look at the circumstances, who is kobe fueding with in his very first year playing with Wade and Bosh? It wouldn't happen.. Maybe later down the line but even then if a past prime wade could take a back seat to peak Lebron he could do some of the same with Kobe.. Something peak Shaq couldn't and shouldn't ever do.


So it doesn't make sense to predict a bad performance based on a bunch of built up factors that wouldn't be present in an alternate situation. And to not take into account era defensive rules or the fact that your comparing a pretty good defensive team to the GOAT is even more shortsighted.

I don't necessarily disagree with you...I actually think if you swap lebron and Kobe the heat probably would win in 2011, but to blindly assume so is wrong. I also have my doubts that such a team would work with such a massive size deficit...would they get through the playoffs? To say that the heat would 3peat with even a prime Kobe instead of lebron is a serious stretch.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Apparently the writer is okay with tourist getting mugged if they ever dare to "act like they own the place"

:biggums:

Classy

[DMAVS41]

Because the margin of error was relatively small at times, it's hard to say for sure on this Lebron and Kobe thing.

My guess would be that prime Lebron wins for sure in 00 and 01 on the Lakers. And prime Kobe wins for sure on the 11 Heat.

02 Lakers beat the Kings with Lebron? Not sure....I'd say yes, but it's a toss up.

12 and 13 Heat win with Kobe? Not sure...probably lean towards yes in 12 and a strong no in 13.

[tpols]

I don't necessarily disagree with you...I actually think if you swap lebron and Kobe the heat probably would win in 2011, but to blindly assume so is wrong. I also have my doubts that such a team would work with such a massive size deficit...would they get through the playoffs? To say that the heat would 3peat with Kobe instead of lebron is a serious stretch.
Don't know about 3 peat.. Because kobe couldn't abuse Durant physically like Bron did. That series is more of a toss up. 2011 and 2013 would be very likely though imo. The east was a joke both years and in one year the finals opponent was vastly inferior and in the other kobe has had great success against the Spurs in the playoffs many times even out playing peak Shaq in whole series against them. Would be hard to pick against heat seeing how hard Lebron struggled against the spurs at first but still managed to pull it out

[VIntageNOvel]

I don't think anyone will ever forget how bad lebron was in 2011. I'm just curious why Kobe gets a pass for an even worse performance.


bro, did you watch both series or boxscore only?

2004
Kobe had a bad series, you can argue its because of his feud with shaq, his injury, and or his rape case and shit, but the series wasnt even close, the whole team played like garbage (except shaq, and piston frontcourt actually did a good job containing shaq), Malone, payton, fisher, all shot even lower FG than kobe, they didnt stand a change

2011 Miami had the ring in their hand until lebron choke it away, blowing big lead after big lead,
wade was beasting, had they won, lebron would be remembered as wade sidekick in 2011

2007 Lebron:
G1: Lebron (4-16)
G2: Lebron (9-21)
G3: Lebron (9-23)
G4: Lebron (10-30)

his teammates actually had an average series,
put 2012 lebron on 2007 cavs, and they could have won
Game 1 is a good example:
sasha (6-12), gooden (6-9), andy v (3-6), D gibson (7-9)
but lebron 4-16 :confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

Because the margin of error was relatively small at times, it's hard to say for sure on this Lebron and Kobe thing.

My guess would be that prime Lebron wins for sure in 00 and 01 on the Lakers. And prime Kobe wins for sure on the 11 Heat.

02 Lakers beat the Kings with Lebron? Not sure....I'd say yes, but it's a toss up.

12 and 13 Heat win with Kobe? Not sure...probably lean towards yes in 12 and a strong no in 13.
Heat don't make a single finals with Kobe. Wade on Kobe on the same team with no bigs...... It's just not happening. You're basically replacing LeBron's production with the same points, less rebound, less play making, no defense and severely decreased efficiency.

[DMAVS41]

Heat don't make a single finals with Kobe. Wade on Kobe on the same team with no bigs...... It's just not happening. You're basically replacing LeBron's production with the same points, less rebound, less play making, no defense and severely decreased efficiency.

I don't think we can say that. I definitely think they make the finals in 2011..and I think they probably win the title. The other years I more or less agree with you.

Definitely agree that most likely don't make it in 2013. Not sure what tpols is talking about on 2013. Without Lebron's versatility and defense...there is no way they beat that Pacers team with Wade being hurt and Bosh having a nightmare matchup.

[daily]

Finals MVP is the most important stat

Cedric Maxwell agrees with this thought

[Nash]

Heat don't make a single finals with Kobe. Wade on Kobe on the same team with no bigs...... It's just not happening. You're basically replacing LeBron's production with the same points, less rebound, less play making, no defense and severely decreased efficiency.
This.

People need to be reminded of that 2011 team that they think should have won it all. Hindsight shows what kinda messed up team that was. TBesides Bosh, hey had a frontcourt of a Illgauskas, Dampier, Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard. Haslem got injured that year.

Behind Lebron and Wade was guys like Bibby, James Jones, Arroyo and Eddie House ffs. Mike Miller was injured the whole year as well and came back as a non-factor during the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

This.

People need to be reminded of that 2011 team that they think should have won it all. Hindsight shows what kinda messed up team that was. TBesides Bosh, hey had a frontcourt of a Illgauskas, Dampier, Joel Anthony and Juwan Howard. Haslem got injured that year.

Behind Lebron and Wade was guys like Bibby, James Jones, Arroyo and Eddie House ffs. Mike Miller was injured the whole year as well and came back as a non-factor during the playoffs.

And if they get superstar production from a player like prime Kobe...they easily beat the Mavs.

This revisionist history about 2011 must stop. They blew through the Eastern Conference going 12-3 overall. Never in danger of actually losing a series. They went 8-2 against the Celtics and a very good Bulls team.

It was only until the Finals that they looked remotely beatable...and it took an epic choke job by Lebron on both ends to make that happen.

The truth is that the 11 Heat were the best Heat team overall if Lebron plays like he normally plays.

I really don't get it. Just look at how much of a struggle it was for the Heat in 12 and 13 just to get to the finals. They simply were not as good. The 12 team, with a healthy Bosh and Wade, was probably the best, but they didn't have that in the playoffs the entire time and missed Bosh in key games against the Celtics.

[K Xerxes]

Jojo White, Cedric Maxwell and Chauncey Billups are definitely better than Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor.

[LBJ 23]

Wasn't kobe at the end of his partnership with shaq and fueding with him?


Kobe had a bad series, you can argue its because of his feud with shaq, his injury, and or his rape case and shit

Why does Kobe get a pass for his on and off the court problems while Lebron does not?

When Lebron joined Wade in Miami, sure their close friendship was a positive factor for their chemistry on the court but that doesn't change the fact that they were basically the same or very similar player who both needed ball in their hands to be at their best. That became even bigger problem when their jumper was off (like Lebron in Dallas series) and the opposing team could easily use that in their advantage by playing zone and taking away driving lanes. When Lebron's jumper was on like in both, Boston and Chicago series before the finals, and when he hit several clutch shots late in games, the problem of him and Wade basically being the same player was forgotten and pushed into a corner but it was not dead. And it came back to life after first 2 games in the Finals when Lebron couldn't hit a jumper for sh!t and he became a frozen statue on the perimeter.

Also, becoming one of the most hated players by the basketball world in history, if not the most hated bball player ever after the Decision, didn't help either. After being the golden boy of the NBA for so many years, he became the biggest villain after one night and whole world was waiting for him to fail.

And I'm not saying all this should be used as an excuse for him playing like shit in 2011, but if you give Kobe a pass for his problems with Shaq and other off the court problems in 2004, what I wrote above should also be taken into account.

[Doranku]

And if they get superstar production from a player like prime Kobe...they easily beat the Mavs.

This revisionist history about 2011 must stop. They blew through the Eastern Conference going 12-3 overall. Never in danger of actually losing a series. They went 8-2 against the Celtics and a very good Bulls team.

It was only until the Finals that they looked remotely beatable...and it took an epic choke job by Lebron on both ends to make that happen.

The truth is that the 11 Heat were the best Heat team overall if Lebron plays like he normally plays.

I really don't get it. Just look at how much of a struggle it was for the Heat in 12 and 13 just to get to the finals. They simply were not as good. The 12 team, with a healthy Bosh and Wade, was probably the best, but they didn't have that in the playoffs the entire time and missed Bosh in key games against the Celtics.

I just don't understand your take on the 2013 playoffs. They basically had byes in the first and second round, so I'm not even going to discuss those series.

They were just lazy and undisciplined with the Pacers. Every "must win" game that the Heat played during that series was a blowout. They got complacent because for the third straight series, they knew that they were the vastly superior team. I'm sorry but Prime Kobe/Wade/Bosh/Allen simply would not lose to the Paul George-led Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series with HCA.

Then we have the Spurs series. They were seconds away from beating the Heat because they exploited LeBron's glaring weakness... a weakness that is Kobe's STRENGTH.

You think the Spurs are going to be playing Rondo defense on prime Kobe? He'd average 45 a game if the Spurs played him the same way they played Bronzy. Kobe annihilated the Spurs when Duncan was in his prime. What the hell do you think is gonna happen against a 37 year old Duncan and a washed up Ginobili? :oldlol:

Put Prime Kobe on the 2013 Heat. They sweep the Bucks (:roll: ), sweep Chicago's D-League squad, beat the Pacers in 6, and beat the Spurs in 5.

[Doranku]

Why does Kobe get a pass for his on and off the court problems while Lebron does not?

When Lebron joined Wade in Miami, sure their close friendship was a positive factor for their chemistry on the court but that doesn't change the fact that they were basically the same or very similar player who both needed ball in their hands to be at their best. That became even bigger problem when their jumper was off (like Lebron in Dallas series) and the opposing team could easily use that in their advantage by playing zone and taking away driving lanes. When Lebron's jumper was on like in both, Boston and Chicago series before the finals, and when he hit several clutch shots late in games, the problem of him and Wade basically being the same player was forgotten and pushed into a corner but it was not dead. And it came back to life after first 2 games in the Finals when Lebron couldn't hit a jumper for sh!t and he became a frozen statue on the perimeter.

Also, becoming one of the most hated players by the basketball world in history, if not the most hated bball player ever after the Decision, didn't help either. After being the golden boy of the NBA for so many years, he became the biggest villain.

And I'm not saying all this should be used as an excuse for him playing like shit in 2011, but if you give Kobe a pass for his problems with Shaq and other off the court problems in 2004, what I wrote above should be taken into account also.

:roll: The f*ck is this shit? So not being able to play off the ball, not being able to coexist with another player who needs the ball to be effective, and not being able to hit a jumper are now off the court problems? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Get the f*ck outta here. Although your username says it all about the kind of "fan" that you are.

[boozehound]

news flash, MVP awards are not statistics. SMFH

[Lebron23]

Cleveland LeBron would put up better finals stats than 2000-02 Kobe if he has played with Shaq.

[DMAVS41]

I just don't understand your take on the 2013 playoffs. They basically had byes in the first and second round, so I'm not even going to discuss those series.

They were just lazy and undisciplined with the Pacers. Every "must win" game that the Heat played during that series was a blowout. They got complacent because for the third straight series, they knew that they were the vastly superior team. I'm sorry but Prime Kobe/Wade/Bosh/Allen simply would not lose to the Paul George-led Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series with HCA.

Then we have the Spurs series. They were seconds away from beating the Heat because they exploited LeBron's glaring weakness... a weakness that is Kobe's STRENGTH.

You think the Spurs are going to be playing Rondo defense on prime Kobe? He'd average 45 a game if the Spurs played him the same way they played Bronzy. Kobe annihilated the Spurs when Duncan was in his prime. What the hell do you think is gonna happen against a 37 year old Duncan and a washed up Ginobili? :oldlol:

Put Prime Kobe on the 2013 Heat. They sweep the Bucks (:roll: ), sweep Chicago's D-League squad, beat the Pacers in 6, and beat the Spurs in 5.

When did I ever say the first two rounds were tough? Never.

What you don't seem to grasp...or anyone for that matter on here...is how important Lebron's defense and playmaking were to that Heat team. Not to mention...it's not like Kobe has proven unstoppable against quality defensive teams in the playoffs. In fact, his numbers go down more than Lebron's and Wade's do against elite defenses in the playoffs.

How are the Heat defending teams and rebounding against teams like the Pacers and Spurs with Kobe instead of Lebron???? How often is Kobe going to make the kind of rotations and switches Lebron does every night?

And lets be clear. Wade was hurt and a shell of himself against the Pacers and Bosh was just his normal awful self against quality bigs...Kobe isn't changing either of those factors.

Put it this way...even if you saw a marginal tick up in offense with Kobe, it wouldn't make up for the defense and rebounding hole he would create...and the Heat's defense is the most important aspect of them winning.

And with a margin as small as the one the Heat had this year...I just don't see Kobe getting it done.

2011 was the year that Kobe would have won. The Heat had an even bigger margin of error and the only reason they were ever in danger of losing was because Lebron choked and was awful. 12 and 13 are different...

And not only all of that...just not sure what you are going to get from Kobe in a game 7. His play has been average at best with an all time stinker in 2010. He'd need two quality game 7's to win the title...and I don't see much evidence that that is going to happen.

Everyone here just seems to forget how close the Heat were to losing in 12 and 13. I swear it's like everyone forgets the Heat had to win a road game 6 in Boston in 12 just to stay alive...and forget that the Heat should have lost in 6 to the Spurs. They weren't dominant at all the last 2 years in the playoffs...it took a Lebron all time great game 6 in Boston and an absurd amount of luck to win this year.

Has Kobe ever had a game 7 in which he put up 37/12/4 on 70% TS with only 2 turnovers? Not to mention under the pressure of the finals? It's not like that game was a blowout. The Heat were only up 1 going into the 4th. Lebron played a near perfect game and the Heat still could have lost if a few things go the Spurs way in the last 2 minutes.

[tpols]

I just don't understand your take on the 2013 playoffs. They basically had byes in the first and second round, so I'm not even going to discuss those series.

They were just lazy and undisciplined with the Pacers. Every "must win" game that the Heat played during that series was a blowout. They got complacent because for the third straight series, they knew that they were the vastly superior team. I'm sorry but Prime Kobe/Wade/Bosh/Allen simply would not lose to the Paul George-led Indiana Pacers in a 7 game series with HCA.

Then we have the Spurs series. They were seconds away from beating the Heat because they exploited LeBron's glaring weakness... a weakness that is Kobe's STRENGTH.

You think the Spurs are going to be playing Rondo defense on prime Kobe? He'd average 45 a game if the Spurs played him the same way they played Bronzy. Kobe annihilated the Spurs when Duncan was in his prime. What the hell do you think is gonna happen against a 37 year old Duncan and a washed up Ginobili? :oldlol:

Put Prime Kobe on the 2013 Heat. They sweep the Bucks (:roll: ), sweep Chicago's D-League squad, beat the Pacers in 6, and beat the Spurs in 5.
+1

Lebron's defense and rebounding the difference? First off, Kobe, in his prime has averaged 7+rpg for whole playoff runs.. He was a great rebounding guard.

Thing that really baffles me with your post dmavs.. Is you brought up brons.. Defense?

Paul George had his best series.. EVER with Bron on him. Post the averages.. His scoring skyrocketed from regular season.. As did his whole offensive game. What defense did Bron provide that a prime lock down kobe couldn't? Kobe's forte was man d.. He could've shut George down.. And Georges passing to the post, PnR playmaking and outside shooting were what opened indy offense. Bron doesn't like crowding one on one.. And PG being a tall shooter was a nightmare matchup for him just like he couldn't stop Durant's scoring in 12. Only in the Pacers series George could actually D him up unlike Durant.

[Doranku]

Why are you acting as if Prime Kobe somehow pales in comparison to 2013 LeBron defensively? Has his defense been overrated this much? Or has Kobe's been underrated because of his defense (or lack thereof) the past few years?

You act as if LeBron was some defensive stopper on David West or something even though from what I can remember, West would abuse him every time he got the ball.

With Kobe on the team, the Heat would be able to get away with playing Joel and putting him on Hibbert with Haslem/Bosh cycling off of West. Prime Kobe wasn't dependent on driving lanes like Bronzy is.

Like tpols pointed out, the team's philosophy and approach would be completely different if Kobe were on the team. You can't just automatically assume that since we're swapping LeBron out for Kobe that Kobe is going to play exactly the same role as LeBron. Just doesn't make sense.

People act like Bosh is some washed up, garbage player now which simply isn't the case. It's the LeBron effect. Numerous players have had their worst years playing with LeBron. The opposite holds true for Kobe.

Bosh would be a much more featured part of the Heat with Kobe instead of LeBron. Wade and Kobe are also a better, less redundant pairing than Wade and LeBron are. Again, as tpols said, the entire dynamic of the team would be different.

@your edit: Again, why do you assume that the Heat would even be in the position to be playing Game 7s with Kobe instead of LeBron. Maybe the Pacers series would have gone 7, but the Spurs? I'm telling you, the Heat would be MUCH better off with Kobe instead of LeBron against the Spurs. LeBron had a big game 7, yeah, but he was also pretty terrible in a few of those games which is why the series went 7 in the first place. And these games came with the Spurs DARING LeBron to shoot.

Ain't nobody gonna be daring a prime Kobe to shoot a midrange jump shot...

[tpols]

The heat were never down against the Pacers.. They were always a game ahead and when it did get tied? West and Hibbert shit the bed and got dominated on the interior in game 7..

By birdman Bosh and Haslem who wouldn't let them establish position. Watch the games.. And better yet, post the first half stats. West and Hibbert were out rebounded and shut down offensively.

Ironically it was PGs shooting over lebron that even kept it close for a bit

[DMAVS41]

+1

Lebron's defense and rebounding the difference? First off, Kobe, in his prime has averaged 7+rpg for whole playoff runs.. He was a great rebounding guard.

Thing that really baffles me with your post dmavs.. Is you brought up brons.. Defense?

Paul George had his best series.. EVER with Bron on him. Post the averages.. His scoring skyrocketed from regular season.. As did his whole offensive game. What defense did Bron provide that a prime lock down kobe couldn't? Kobe's forte was man d.. He could've shut George down.. And Georges passing to the post, PnR playmaking and outside shooting were what opened indy offense. Bron doesn't like crowding one on one.. And PG being a tall shooter was a nightmare matchup for him just like he couldn't stop Durant's scoring in 12. Only in the Pacers series George could actually D him up unlike Durant.

Are you so stupid that you don't understand the team defense Lebron provides? Man to man defense in the NBA is the single most over-rated thing ever.

This notion that must stop. It's Lebron's ability to make rotations and switches and wreak havoc on defense while also playing great offense that makes this Heat team go.

But we can forget all of that. Are you saying the Heat would have beat the Spurs in 6 with Kobe? Because I want to see the evidence that Kobe can play the type of game 7 Lebron did. We can boil it all down to that if you want.

And there is none.

[tpols]

Are you so stupid that you don't understand the team defense Lebron provides? Man to man defense in the NBA is the single most over-rated thing ever.

This notion that must stop. It's Lebron's ability to make rotations and switches and wreak havoc on defense while also playing great offense that makes this Heat team go.

But we can forget all of that. Are you saying the Heat would have beat the Spurs in 6 with Kobe? Because I want to see the evidence that Kobe can play the type of game 7 Lebron did. We can boil it all down to that if you want.

And there is none.
Who did Bron shut down? Pacers had a GREAT offensive series for their standards.. As a team. They're ball movement and spacing was great. They were eating the heat up inside and out. PG had his coming out party on Bron.. Stephenson had his moments.. West and Hibbert dominated up until game 7.. Who did Bron shut down.

He got lit up:oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Are you so stupid that you don't understand the team defense Lebron provides? Man to man defense in the NBA is the single most over-rated thing ever.

This notion that must stop. It's Lebron's ability to make rotations and switches and wreak havoc on defense while also playing great offense that makes this Heat team go.

But we can forget all of that. Are you saying the Heat would have beat the Spurs in 6 with Kobe? Because I want to see the evidence that Kobe can play the type of game 7 Lebron did. We can boil it all down to that if you want.

And there is none.

2000 WCF game 7

[DMAVS41]

Who did Bron shut down? Pacers had a GREAT offensive series for their standards.. As a team. They're ball movement and spacing was great. They were eating the heat up inside and out. PG had his coming out party on Bron.. Stephenson had his moments.. West and Hibbert dominated up until game 7.. Who did Bron shut down.

He got lit up:oldlol:

How can you respond like that? I never said he "shut someone down"...I said Lebron's defensive impact and versatility makes the Heat go. Are you really this dense?

I don't even care to debate this. You are speaking "white noise" at this point.

I'm asking you...what evidence do you have that Kobe could play a game 7 like Lebron did against the Spurs? Because that was absolutely necessary for the Heat to win. Lebron played a damn near perfect game and the Heat could have still lost with just a few bounces of the ball.

[tpols]

Are you so stupid that you don't understand the team defense Lebron provides? Man to man defense in the NBA is the single most over-rated thing ever.

This notion that must stop. It's Lebron's ability to make rotations and switches and wreak havoc on defense while also playing great offense that makes this Heat team go.

But we can forget all of that. Are you saying the Heat would have beat the Spurs in 6 with Kobe? Because I want to see the evidence that Kobe can play the type of game 7 Lebron did. We can boil it all down to that if you want.

And there is none.
Are you serious??

Spurs early success was based off Bron being scared to shoot..once he got over it? Heat won.

Kobe has had so much success against Spurs teams that were even better defensively, because pops strategy of letting superstars go one on one and shutting down role players doesn't work on one of the greatest scorers and midrange shooter of all time.

With wades resurgence they win in 6 or less

[DMAVS41]

2000 WCF game 7

I don't think that would have been good enough. That is my point. 25/11/7 on 52% TS wouldn't have gotten it done. The margin for error in that game was too small.

[DMAVS41]

Are you serious??

Spurs early success was based off Bron being scared to shoot..once he got over it? Heat won.

Kobe has had so much success against Spurs teams that were even better defensively, because pops strategy of letting superstars go one on one and shutting down role players doesn't work on one of the greatest scorers and midrange shooter of all time.

So are you saying that the Heat beat the Spurs in 5 with Kobe? Does it go 7 or not?

And if you take that approach...I could very easily reference Kobe struggling against defensive teams like the Pacers throughout his career in the playoffs. So I'm not sure you want to go that route.

You seem to be implying that Kobe is just easily better than Lebron. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is getting into a very dangerous territory.

[Doranku]

So are you saying that the Heat beat the Spurs in 5 with Kobe? Does it go 7 or not?
Not a chance that it goes 7. For the 100th time, Prime Kobe is much better equipped to beat the Spurs than LeBron is.

Kobe has shredded the Spurs time and time again in the playoffs. What makes you think he would play anywhere close to as bad as LeBron did for the first 5 and 3 quarters games against an older, less talented Spurs team?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Are you so stupid that you don't understand the team defense Lebron provides? Man to man defense in the NBA is the single most over-rated thing ever.

This notion that must stop. It's Lebron's ability to make rotations and switches and wreak havoc on defense while also playing great offense that makes this Heat team go.

But we can forget all of that. Are you saying the Heat would have beat the Spurs in 6 with Kobe? Because I want to see the evidence that Kobe can play the type of game 7 Lebron did. We can boil it all down to that if you want.

And there is none.
I specifically remember San Antonio giving Lebron at least 5 wide open 3-pointers in that game.

[DMAVS41]

Not a chance that it goes 7. For the 100th time, Prime Kobe is much better equipped to beat the Spurs than LeBron is.

Kobe has shredded the Spurs time and time again in the playoffs. What makes you think he would play anywhere close to as bad as LeBron did for the first 5 and 3 quarters games against an older, less talented Spurs team?

Because you aren't giving the Spurs enough credit and aren't understanding how bad the Heat actually were overall.

Even with Lebron playing a great game 7...they barely won. So what? Kobe is going to drop 37/12/4 on 70% TS every game and sweep the Spurs?

It's absurd. Kobe isn't winning game 3 or 5 most likely even if he plays well. And you have to at least factor in 1 more off game. So how is the series over so quickly?

Hell, Kobe, at the peak of his powers in 06 offensively with joke rules...shot 7 of 21 and 6 of 18 in two games of a 7 game series against the pathetic Suns defense. But now it's absurd to think he'd struggle at times against a much better Spurs team on both ends with more pressure in the finals which clearly impacts Kobe's game? GTFO please...

[tpols]

So are you saying that the Heat beat the Spurs in 5 with Kobe? Does it go 7 or not?

And if you take that approach...I could very easily reference Kobe struggling against defensive teams like the Pacers throughout his career in the playoffs. So I'm not sure you want to go that route.

You seem to be implying that Kobe is just easily better than Lebron. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is getting into a very dangerous territory.
Not at all..

Bron has his strengths as does kobe.

Playoff are about MATCHUPS. Kobe is the Spurs kryptonite.. While the Spurs have been brons biggest playoff nightmare.. Of any team he's ever faced.

I already admitted Bron would fare far better against Okc thank kobe would.. Because of matchup differences. Okc has great length to bother shooters but poor defense against slasher.

Spurs are the opposite.

Is it really this hard lol...

[Heavincent]

I don't think that would have been good enough. That is my point. 25/11/7 on 52% TS wouldn't have gotten it done. The margin for error in that game was too small.

lol I knew you would do that.

There was no margin for error in that game. Were you watching basketball back then?

[DMAVS41]

lol I knew you would do that.

There was no margin for error in that game. Were you watching basketball back then?

What? The margin of error was about the game 7 in 2013. I don't think 25 on 52% TS is getting it done against the Spurs in the finals game 7.

Do you?

[DMAVS41]

Not at all..

Bron has his strengths as does kobe.

Playoff are about MATCHUPS. Kobe is the Spurs kryptonite.. While the Spurs have been brons biggest playoff nightmare.. Of any team he's ever faced.

I already admitted Bron would fare far better against Okc thank kobe would.. Because of matchup differences. Okc has great length to bother shooters but poor defense against slasher.

Spurs are the opposite.

Is it really this hard lol...

Offensively Kobe would most likely individually perform better. But the Heat's defense would certainly take a hit overall. If you can't realize that...I just give up.

Not only that, but stop pretending like Kobe is just going to run off 5 great games in a row in the finals. And even if he did...the Spurs were good enough and the rest of the Heat were bad enough for that not to be enough to win the series.

Think about what you are saying...please. Under your line of thinking...no way does Kobe not destroy a team like the 06 Suns...but why didn't he? Could it be that these players don't play perfectly every night?

And again...if you want to take this approach...then you must take that approach against the Pacers...a team of the kind that Kobe has historically struggled against in the playoffs.

[Doranku]

Because you aren't giving the Spurs enough credit and aren't understanding how bad the Heat actually were overall.

Even with Lebron playing a great game 7...they barely won. So what? Kobe is going to drop 37/12/4 on 70% TS every game and sweep the Spurs?

It's absurd. Kobe isn't winning game 3 or 5 most likely even if he plays well. And you have to at least factor in 1 more off game. So how is the series over so quickly?

Hell, Kobe, at the peak of his powers in 06 offensively with joke rules...shot 7 of 21 and 6 of 18 in two games of a 7 game series against the pathetic Suns defense. But now it's absurd to think he'd struggle at times against a much better Spurs team on both ends with more pressure in the finals which clearly impacts Kobe's game? GTFO please...


So you're assuming that the games are going to play out exactly as they did if Kobe were in LeBron's place? Just ridiculous assumptions. Not even worth arguing.

And why are you bringing up the Suns series in '06? Kobe shot 50%+ in 5 of the 7 games. LeBron shot 50%+ in 2 of the 7 games against the Spurs.

[Heavincent]

What? The margin of error was about the game 7 in 2013. I don't think 25 on 52% TS is getting it done against the Spurs in the finals game 7.

Do you?

:biggums:


My argument wasn't to transfer his identical statline to another game. That doesn't even make sense. I was pointing out the fact that Kobe is perfectly capable of stepping up in big games. That much is obvious and I don't even know why we're having this conversation.

Your approach is far too scientific. You come up with these hypothetical theories that you think are inarguable. It's ridiculous to be honest.

[DMAVS41]

So you're assuming that the games are going to play out exactly as they did if Kobe were in LeBron's place? Just ridiculous assumptions. Not even worth arguing.

And why are you bringing up the Suns series in '06? Kobe shot 50%+ in 5 of the 7 games. LeBron shot 50%+ in 2 of the 7 games against the Spurs.

No. I'm assuming that Kobe doesn't change the series so much that the Heat go from needing to 7 against both the Spurs and Pacers to needing less games. I think that is ridiculous and not even worth arguing.

I bring it up because you act like it's absurd to imagine Kobe struggling to shoot at times...he does...and did...frequently against much worse defenses with the absurd rules of the 06 season.

And we continue to just talk about offense...which is just patently narrow minded considering how important Lebron is on defense to the success of the Heat.

[Doranku]

Anyway, I can say with a good amount of confidence that prime Kobe wins the '11 and '13 titles in place of Bronzy.

I'm not sure why ginobli is focusing on '13 when '12 is really the year where there's doubt. Bosh was gone for two playoff series and they had to go through the Celtics' last stand and the young, athletic Thunder.

I could definitely see either of those teams beating the Kobe-led Heat. Any of the weak 2013 competition? Not so much.

[DMAVS41]

:biggums:


My argument wasn't to transfer his identical statline to another game. That doesn't even make sense. I was pointing out the fact that Kobe is perfectly capable of stepping up in big games. That much is obvious and I don't even know why we're having this conversation.

Your approach is far too scientific. You come up with these hypothetical theories that you think are inarguable. It's ridiculous to be honest.

The point is that Kobe have never played a game 7 as good as Lebron did there.

Kobe is 8-10 in elimination games for his career and averages 21.6 points on 41.7 percent shooting from the field. Meanwhile...Lebron is 7-6 and averages 31.5 on 45.8 percent shooting from the field. And those were his numbers before the game 7 this year. To pretend like we can't learn anything from that is absurd.

I never said he isn't capable...I said there isn't evidence that he's going to be able to something he's never done before in 17 years in the league.

[DMAVS41]

Anyway, I can say with a good amount of confidence that prime Kobe wins the '11 and '13 titles in place of Bronzy.

I'm not sure why ginobli is focusing on '13 when '12 is really the year where there's doubt. Bosh was gone for two playoff series and they had to go through the Celtics' last stand and the young, athletic Thunder.

I could definitely see either of those teams beating the Kobe-led Heat. Any of the weak 2013 competition? Not so much.

11 is the only year there should be confidence. I already said 12 and 13 were in doubt.

I could easily focus on 12, but I really think you guys just haven't comprehended how bad the Heat were playing outside of Lebron in the playoffs.

Just look at what Lebron was working with;

16/5/5
12/7/2
10/3/1
9/2/3
6/4/0
5/4/0

And on...

His 2nd option was hurt. His 3rd option was in an offensive slump all playoffs and was terrible in all other areas for the most part.

Look at it that way.

[Doranku]

11 is the only year there should be confidence. I already said 12 and 13 were in doubt.

I could easily focus on 12, but I really think you guys just haven't comprehended how bad the Heat were playing outside of Lebron in the playoffs.
Agree to disagree, I guess. I really think you're overrating the impact that a perimeter player (LeBron) can have on a team's defense. He's not Pippen or MJ defensively, not even close.

Moreover, that whole Indiana series really just felt like Miami had taken their foot off the gas pedal. Every time the Pacers threw a punch, the Heat would just throw 3 right back. They dominated every game they needed to win. Yeah, it did go 7 games, but it really never felt like a series where either team could walk away with a W.

And I've already discussed why I don't think the Spurs would have won.

[funnystuff]

The Heat would never make the finals with Kobe.


That is such a retard thing to say. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fresh Kid]

Its not because billups wasnt tha best player on tha 2004 pistons, and Lebron and wade sure nuff didnt deserve theirs .

[DMAVS41]

Agree to disagree, I guess. I really think you're overrating the impact that a perimeter player (LeBron) can have on a team's defense. He's not Pippen or MJ defensively, not even close.

Moreover, that whole Indiana series really just felt like Miami had taken their foot off the gas pedal. Every time the Pacers threw a punch, the Heat would just throw 3 right back. They dominated every game they needed to win. Yeah, it did go 7 games, but it really never felt like a series where either team could walk away with a W.

And I've already discussed why I don't think the Spurs would have won.

He's not MJ in terms of on ball defense...or Pippen. In terms of team defense and versatility? He's the best perimeter defender I've ever seen. And his impact is huge on the Heat. He's by far their best defender.

Okay...lets say that is true with the Pacers series. Then that still goes 7 with Kobe. And Kobe would still have to play a very good to great game to win that game 7. Nobody else on the Heat did much of note other than Lebron. Wade was solid...Bosh was awful (as usual)...I can't remember anyone else doing much.

Again. Kobe is 8-10 in elimination games and averages 21.6 and 41.7 shooting. He historically struggles in the playoffs against defensive teams like the Pacers. Why again are they automatically winning that game?

[WindmiLL]

Yeah, it did go 7 games, but it really never felt like a series where either team could walk away with a W.



Really? Do I have to bump all those threads created by your ''brothas'' during that series about Lebron's legacy being forever destroyed when Pacers win? :lol

[Unbiased_one]

Anyway, I can say with a good amount of confidence that prime Kobe wins the '11 and '13 titles in place of Bronzy.

I'm not sure why ginobli is focusing on '13 when '12 is really the year where there's doubt. Bosh was gone for two playoff series and they had to go through the Celtics' last stand and the young, athletic Thunder.

I could definitely see either of those teams beating the Kobe-led Heat. Any of the weak 2013 competition? Not so much.

The heat with Kobe almost certainly don't get past the pacers. George is a good enough defender to trouble Kobe, and the heat defense would take a huge hit. Not to mention that the size deficit would be even greater.

[Knoe Itawl]

And if they get superstar production from a player like prime Kobe...they easily beat the Mavs.

This revisionist history about 2011 must stop. They blew through the Eastern Conference going 12-3 overall. Never in danger of actually losing a series. They went 8-2 against the Celtics and a very good Bulls team.

It was only until the Finals that they looked remotely beatable...and it took an epic choke job by Lebron on both ends to make that happen.

The truth is that the 11 Heat were the best Heat team overall if Lebron plays like he normally plays.

I really don't get it. Just look at how much of a struggle it was for the Heat in 12 and 13 just to get to the finals. They simply were not as good. The 12 team, with a healthy Bosh and Wade, was probably the best, but they didn't have that in the playoffs the entire time and missed Bosh in key games against the Celtics.

When has Kobe EVER shown he can lead a team without the most imposing front court in the league covering his mistakes? If people thought Lebron and Wade were redundant, what about Kobe and Wade? You think Kobe would mesh as well (even eventually) with Wade like Bron did? Does Kobe have the versatility Bron has shown with these past two titles? Would Kobe have been able to lead that squad to two rings with a p!ss poor front court and his other two superstars MIA for large stretches?

Bryant at his peak was not as good as Lebron, period. And more, he didn't have the ability to mesh with the team concept like a Lebron. Kobe needed a very specific situation to win - versatile bigs, strong defenders and a Jackson level coach to reighn him in. This Miami team would not have played to any of that. I honestly don't see how people don't get that. Kobe's never been a "carry a team on his back" type of player.

[Heavincent]

When has Kobe EVER shown he can lead a team without the most imposing front court in the league covering his mistakes? If people thought Lebron and Wade were redundant, what about Kobe and Wade? You think Kobe would mesh as well (even eventually) with Wade like Bron did? Does Kobe have the versatility Bron has shown with these past two titles? Would Kobe have been able to lead that squad to two rings with a p!ss poor front court and his other two superstars MIA for large stretches?

Bryant at his peak was not as good as Lebron, period. And more, he didn't have the ability to mesh with the team concept like a Lebron. Kobe needed a very specific situation to win - versatile bigs, strong defenders and a Jackson level coach to reighn him in. This Miami team would not have played to any of that. I honestly don't see how people don't get that. Kobe's never been a "carry a team on his back" type of player.

:roll:

Let it go dude.

[DMAVS41]

When has Kobe EVER shown he can lead a team without the most imposing front court in the league covering his mistakes? If people thought Lebron and Wade were redundant, what about Kobe and Wade? You think Kobe would mesh as well (even eventually) with Wade like Bron did? Does Kobe have the versatility Bron has shown with these past two titles? Would Kobe have been able to lead that squad to two rings with a p!ss poor front court and his other two superstars MIA for large stretches?

Bryant at his peak was not as good as Lebron, period. And more, he didn't have the ability to mesh with the team concept like a Lebron. Kobe needed a very specific situation to win - versatile bigs, strong defenders and a Jackson level coach to reighn him in. This Miami team would not have played to any of that. I honestly don't see how people don't get that. Kobe's never been a "carry a team on his back" type of player.

It wouldn't so much be about Kobe. It was about the strength of the 11 Heat relative to their competition. Mainly...Wade. Look...the Heat tore through a very good Celtics team and very good Bulls team in the 11 playoffs...going a combined 8-2. Do they do that without Lebron and with Kobe instead? I don't think they win as easily, but I think they definitely make the finals.

And in the finals...the only way that Heat team loses to my Mavs is if Lebron is just awful on both ends and chokes in the clutch...and that is exactly what happened. Could Kobe do the same in his prime? Maybe, but I just don't think that is a fair assessment given the evidence.

The other two years I totally agree with you. Although I do think the Heat in 12 still beat the Thunder. Whether they get there or not is a different story. I first was just talking about the finals...and assumed that is what everyone meant. If we go back to the Celtics series in 12...then my answer changes. The Heat don't beat the 12 Celtics with Kobe.

Just like they don't beat the Spurs or perhaps the Pacers in 13 with Kobe.

Just check the thread...we pretty much agree outside of 11.

I just don't think people understand just how good that 11 team actually was with Wade playing at damn near his peak on both ends.

[Doranku]

When has Kobe EVER shown he can lead a team without the most imposing front court in the league covering his mistakes? If people thought Lebron and Wade were redundant, what about Kobe and Wade? You think Kobe would mesh as well (even eventually) with Wade like Bron did? Does Kobe have the versatility Bron has shown with these past two titles? Would Kobe have been able to lead that squad to two rings with a p!ss poor front court and his other two superstars MIA for large stretches?

Bryant at his peak was not as good as Lebron, period. And more, he didn't have the ability to mesh with the team concept like a Lebron. Kobe needed a very specific situation to win - versatile bigs, strong defenders and a Jackson level coach to reighn him in. This Miami team would not have played to any of that. I honestly don't see how people don't get that. Kobe's never been a "carry a team on his back" type of player.

When has he had the chance? :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

Knoe going crazy again.

:roll:

[Trollsmasher]

People saying that the Heat would play better with Kobe instead of LeBron should just take a step back and shoot their ****ing brain out of their ****ing head:roll:

Kobe is not even capable about dreaming about the games LeBron had to have for the Heat to win in the last two years:hammerhead:

What does Kobe do to coexist with ever injured Wade? What does he do with a soft ***** that is Chris Bosh (lol at that BS about LeBron effect, give LeBron a normal bigman and not a homosexual dinosaur and we are not debating this).

Where is Kobe's help defense and rebounding which is the only thing that makes Miami's undersized defense work? Where is Kobe's driving and kicking out on offense which is the only thing that makes their offense work?

That team can't work any other way. You can't play Bosh like Shaq in a triangle. You can't use Wade in any kind of scheme without him hogging the ball. You can't make them work any other way than they do right now with LeBron.

And not only that Kobe is a much worse player than LeBron with inadequate skills, but his personality and off court persona is also terrible.

LeBron shoulders all the criticism that the media have for the Heat, Kobe can't do that. Kobe never gets blamed by media for anything and he always blames his teammates.

LeBron is a vocal leader both on and off the court and he is what unites the team. Kobe can't do that. Kobe is what tears teams apart and he will abandon his teammates in the moment they do not live up to their standarts.

So not only LeBron is a much superior player to Kobe with skills that Kobe does not have and with those skills being the only things that makes the Heat work, but he is also a leader Kobe can never hope to be. I would not let Kobe to lead my grandmother across a crosswalk, much less to lead a massively disfunctional team:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

When has he had the chance? :confusedshrug:

What do you mean? He didn't have the best in 05, 06, 07,08, 11, 12, or 13.

The thing that you continue to miss is how important it is for the Heat to have a player that can fly all over the court like Lebron does. Switching on to guys like David West and blocking centers at the rim...while he can also effectively guard point guards one on one. It's a level of overall defense and rebounding impact that Kobe never reached...and without it...the Heat would be in big trouble.

And I'd like to ask you something. If Kobe's previous history against the Spurs is your evidence. Why are you ignoring Kobe's game 7 and elimination game play for the other years?

No way has the way Kobe has played overall in elimination games been good enough to warrant thinking the 12 Heat get by the 12 Celtics. So you've lost 2012 right off the bat. And when you factor in Kobe's poor play against elite defensive teams combined with average it best elimination game play...why again are the Heat beating the Pacers in game 7?

So I'd like to know why Kobe's previous history against the Spurs plays such a big role in this...but not his poor elimination game play and his many struggles against quality defensive teams in the playoffs....and a personal history of struggles against the Celtics team Lebron lit up in 2012. In game 6 in 2008 Kobe's team lost by 40. In game 7 in 2010 Kobe went 6-24...nothing like that would have been close to good enough to get by them in 2012. And again...why are the winning game 7 against the Pacers again? Are you referencing Kobe's great elimination game play and stellar play against elite defenses that doesn't exist?

[Doranku]

What do you mean? He didn't have the best in 05, 06, 07,08, 11, 12, or 13.

The thing that you continue to miss is how important it is for the Heat to have a player that can fly all over the court like Lebron does. Switching on to guys like David West and blocking centers at the rim...while he can also effectively guard point guards one on one. It's a level of overall defense and rebounding impact that Kobe never reached...and without it...the Heat would be in big trouble.

And I'd like to ask you something. If Kobe's previous history against the Spurs is your evidence. Why are you ignoring Kobe's game 7 and elimination game play for the other years?

No way has the way Kobe has played overall in elimination games been good enough to warrant thinking the 12 Heat get by the 12 Celtics. So you've lost 2012 right off the bat. And when you factor in Kobe's poor play against elite defensive teams combined with average it best elimination game play...why again are the Heat beating the Pacers in game 7?

So I'd like to know why Kobe's previous history against the Spurs plays such a big role in this...but not his poor elimination game play and his many struggles against quality defensive teams in the playoffs....and a personal history of struggles against the Celtics team Lebron lit up in 2012. In game 6 in 2008 Kobe's team lost by 40. In game 7 in 2010 Kobe went 6-24...nothing like that would have been close to good enough to get by them in 2012. And again...why are the winning game 7 against the Pacers again? Are you referencing Kobe's great elimination game play and stellar play against elite defenses that doesn't exist?

Aside from the fact that he was injured and didn't play a single game in the playoffs in '13, all of that is BS except '05-'07. If the Lakers would have won in those years, people like you and Knoe would still say that they had the most dominant front court or whatever it is that you idiots parade around saying.

lol @ "blocking centers at the rim" being your evidence. Yeah, he blocked a soft ass Euro in a blowout and all of a sudden he's the savior of the Heat's defense. Give me a f*cking break.

And of course, here we go again assuming the series are going to play out in identical fashion with Kobe. Again, even with those ridiculous assumptions aside, your argument is STILL retarded.

Why on earth do you think elimination games against completely unrelated teams would be more predictive of how Kobe would play against the Spurs than previous playoff games against the same core Spurs would? Makes absolutely no sense.

[DMAVS41]

Aside from the fact that he was injured and didn't play a single game in the playoffs in '13, all of that is BS except '05-'07. If the Lakers would have won in those years, people like you and Knoe would still say that they had the most dominant front court or whatever it is that you idiots parade around saying.

lol @ "blocking centers at the rim" being your evidence. Yeah, he blocked a soft ass Euro in a blowout and all of a sudden he's the savior of the Heat's defense. Give me a f*cking break.

And of course, here we go again assuming the series are going to play out in identical fashion with Kobe. Again, even with those ridiculous assumptions aside, your argument is STILL retarded.

Why on earth do you think elimination games against completely unrelated teams would be more predictive of how Kobe would play against the Spurs than previous playoff games against the same core Spurs would? Makes absolutely no sense.

Dude. Just give up. You ignored everything I said and focused on what I would have said if Kobe had won...what? He didn't ****ing win all those years i listed when he didn't have what you said..."when did he have a chance"???

****ing moron.

And blocking centers at the rim is not my evidence...it's just something that makes the Heat work. He blocked Duncan a number of times as well. But that isn't even the ****ing point. It's that Lebron's defensive versatility and his ability to fly all over the court and rebound and wreak havoc on defense is what makes the Heat work. Kobe simply can't and doesn't do that. Can Kobe switch off repeatedly and guard David West? Can he out battle big consistently for rebounds? nope and nope.

I asked a simple question. If previous history against the Spurs is your evidence. Why do you ignore Kobe's previous history against elilte defensive teams like the Pacers and his inept play in elimination games for a star?

Forget the Spurs. Why are the Kobe led Heat beating the Pacers in game 7 based on his history? He struggles against the best defensive teams and he isn't a very good elimination game / game 7 player. Take the same thing to the 12 Celtics series...why are they beating the Celtics with Kobe again? What evidence do you have that Kobe is going to play as well as Lebron did in that series? None of course.

So if previous history is your evidence...you don't even get to the 13 finals. LOL...****ing retard.

[PJR]

There are still retards who think Kobe has an equal impact on games than LeBron? :oldlol:

[Unbiased_one]

What do you mean? He didn't have the best in 05, 06, 07,08, 11, 12, or 13.

The thing that you continue to miss is how important it is for the Heat to have a player that can fly all over the court like Lebron does. Switching on to guys like David West and blocking centers at the rim...while he can also effectively guard point guards one on one. It's a level of overall defense and rebounding impact that Kobe never reached...and without it...the Heat would be in big trouble.

And I'd like to ask you something. If Kobe's previous history against the Spurs is your evidence. Why are you ignoring Kobe's game 7 and elimination game play for the other years?

No way has the way Kobe has played overall in elimination games been good enough to warrant thinking the 12 Heat get by the 12 Celtics. So you've lost 2012 right off the bat. And when you factor in Kobe's poor play against elite defensive teams combined with average it best elimination game play...why again are the Heat beating the Pacers in game 7?

So I'd like to know why Kobe's previous history against the Spurs plays such a big role in this...but not his poor elimination game play and his many struggles against quality defensive teams in the playoffs....and a personal history of struggles against the Celtics team Lebron lit up in 2012. In game 6 in 2008 Kobe's team lost by 40. In game 7 in 2010 Kobe went 6-24...nothing like that would have been close to good enough to get by them in 2012. And again...why are the winning game 7 against the Pacers again? Are you referencing Kobe's great elimination game play and stellar play against elite defenses that doesn't exist?

Actually, the lakers did have the best front court in the league in 2013...

[DMAVS41]

:cheers:
Actually, the lakers did have the best front court in the league in 2013...

[IllegalD]

Guys like DMAVS41 and Knoe spend more time thinking/posting about Kobe, who they supposedly don't like and think is overrated, than they do about their actual teams.

:roll:

I really wish there was a way to get an infographic to see what % of their posts on this board are about Kobe compared to the % of their posts about another subject.

[DMAVS41]

Guys like DMAVS41 and Knoe spend more time thinking/posting about Kobe, who they supposedly don't like and think is overrated, than they do about their actual teams.

:roll:

I really wish there was a way to get an infographic to see what % of their posts on this board are about Kobe compared to the % of their posts about another subject.

And it that supposed to refute what we say? What's funny...is people constantly accuse me of being a Lebron hater as well...and God knows what else.

I see something I don't agree or something that interests me and I post about it.

Simple as that.

[IllegalD]

And it that supposed to refute what we say? What's funny...is people constantly accuse me of being a Lebron hater as well...and God knows what else.

I see something I don't agree or something that interests me and I post about it.

Simple as that.

It does make what you guys say questionable because it demonstrates extreme bias against a specific player.

It's a borderline obsession. On par with guys like Bill Simmons, Henry Abbot, etc. who write about 5 anti-Kobe articles a year trying their hardest to discredit his accomplishments/greatness.

So, yeah...

:hammerhead:

[DMAVS41]

It does make what you guys say questionable because it demonstrates extreme bias against a specific player.

It's a borderline obsession. On par with guys like Bill Simmons, Henry Abbot, etc. who write about 5 anti-Kobe articles a year trying their hardest to discredit his accomplishments/greatness.

So, yeah...

:hammerhead:

I don't make the claims. I respond to the people actually obsessed and try to revise history.

My thoughts on Kobe or any other player are very much rational. The only player I could legitimately be accused of being biased about is Dirk.

[IllegalD]

I don't make the claims. I respond to the people actually obsessed and try to revise history.

My thoughts on Kobe or any other player are very much rational. The only player I could legitimately be accused of being biased about is Dirk.

Yet your crusade for "correcting revisionist history" always seems to focus on Kobe.

Doesn't seem like any other player being "misrepresented" bothers you...

:confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

Actually, the lakers did have the best front court in the league in 2013...

No, the Pacers and Grizzlies had better front courts. There were probably more too, unless I'm wrong here.

[Droid101]

Finals MVP means nothing. Tony Parker? Chauncey Billups?

Please.

[NumberSix]

Guys like DMAVS41 and Knoe spend more time thinking/posting about Kobe, who they supposedly don't like and think is overrated, than they do about their actual teams.

:roll:

I really wish there was a way to get an infographic to see what % of their posts on this board are about Kobe compared to the % of their posts about another subject.
What do you expect them to talk about when 95% of threads are LeBron or Kobe related?

[NumberSix]

Finals MVP means nothing. Tony Parker? Chauncey Billups?

Please.
Ok. So MVPs mean nothing. Check.

Now, FMVPs mean nothing. Check.


What exactly does means something?

InB4..... "RINGS!!!"

[GrapeApe]

Finals MVP means nothing. Tony Parker? Chauncey Billups?

Please.

They are future HOFers, largely because of that award.

[longtime lurker]

This is a stupid ****ing thread.

[Doranku]

Dude. Just give up. You ignored everything I said and focused on what I would have said if Kobe had won...what? He didn't ****ing win all those years i listed when he didn't have what you said..."when did he have a chance"???

****ing moron.

And blocking centers at the rim is not my evidence...it's just something that makes the Heat work. He blocked Duncan a number of times as well. But that isn't even the ****ing point. It's that Lebron's defensive versatility and his ability to fly all over the court and rebound and wreak havoc on defense is what makes the Heat work. Kobe simply can't and doesn't do that. Can Kobe switch off repeatedly and guard David West? Can he out battle big consistently for rebounds? nope and nope.

I asked a simple question. If previous history against the Spurs is your evidence. Why do you ignore Kobe's previous history against elilte defensive teams like the Pacers and his inept play in elimination games for a star?

Forget the Spurs. Why are the Kobe led Heat beating the Pacers in game 7 based on his history? He struggles against the best defensive teams and he isn't a very good elimination game / game 7 player. Take the same thing to the 12 Celtics series...why are they beating the Celtics with Kobe again? What evidence do you have that Kobe is going to play as well as Lebron did in that series? None of course.

So if previous history is your evidence...you don't even get to the 13 finals. LOL...****ing retard.

I didn't ignore anything that you said. It's ridiculous, you give all the credit to the Lakers "dominant front court" for their titles, and then turn around and give Kobe all the fault when they lose.

Bynum was trash in '09 and '10. Odom was very average in '10. There was nothing stacked about those front courts at all. Gasol was a solid second option, but towards the bottom of the list when you look at other championship team.

He played with Shaq until 2005 and he played with Gasol/Odom/Bynum from '08-'12. He didn't play in the '13 playoffs. That leaves '05-'07 to prove that he can win without these dominant (:roll: ) front courts that people like you and Knoe cling to. He was injured and '05, and was surrounded by dog shit the remaining two years.

You sound like a f*cking Jordan mythologist with the way you talk about LeBron's defense...

"ability to fly all over"
"wreak havoc on defense"

He's not a f*cking superhero. Stop with these baseless descriptions that are just meant to make his defensive impact sound more important than it is. PG, West, and Hibbert all had above average series despite LeBron "wreaking havoc" defensively. You think they're capable of playing that much better if LeBron wasn't there? Give me a break.

And LOL @ LeBron "repeatedly" switching on West. Every time he was on West in the post, he got abused. Did you even watch the series?

Not to mention PG lit him the f*ck up because LeBron is an average (at best) man defender. Something that prime Kobe excelled at. He'd put PG in shackles. And a team with Prime Kobe/Wade/Bosh/Allen isn't going to be beaten by guys like West/Hibbert. :oldlol:

That Pacers team simply isn't that good. And what are you talking about LeBron out battling bigs consistently for rebounds? Please show me video evidence of this. The dude averaged 7 rebounds a game against the Pacers. Kobe did that for an entire post-season in 2001 and you're acting like there would be a huge gap in their rebounding numbers. Get the f*ck outta here. :oldlol:

I'm sorry but this is a 49 win Pacers team that we're talking about. Just because the Heat with LeBron got complacent doesn't mean the Heat with Kobe would. Even so, they would still turn it on when they needed to. I can guarantee you that in the mind's of Heat players, that series was never in jeopardy. The Pacers simply weren't that good.

And you want to talk about previous history? Let's talk about how LeBron has a HISTORY of shrinking the players around him into role players. Countless players have had their worst seasons playing alongside LeBron's ball dominant offense. Wade and Bosh are no exception.

On the other hand, many players have seen their most success playing alongside Kobe. Bosh isn't going to be transformed into a spot up 3 point shooter playing with Kobe, I can tell you that right now. Not to mention Wade's slashing game along with Kobe's post-game will create more opportunities than LeBron could provide with his "dribble the ball for 22 seconds and force-feed a player" offense.

[tpols]

^^Dude no point in arguing with him on kobe topic.. he only sees things one way..

you bring up matchup differences between spurs and okc.. he starts talking about two games from 7 years ago against the pheonix suns.

you bring up how his adversary in the pacers series had a breakout performance on his defense.. he starts talking about some legendary team defense.. and cant explain why the pacers whole team offense was so successful

you bring up success versus the spurs, he starts talking how Heat would lose with HCA against paul george led pacers saying Kobe historically struggles against them.. when he hasnt seen them in the playoff in 13 fvcking years. :oldlol:


Its just walls of strawmans and diversions that have nothing to do with what was originially being discussed.:(

[DMAVS41]

^^Dude no point in arguing with him on kobe topic.. he only sees things one way..

you bring up matchup differences between spurs and okc.. he starts talking about two games from 7 years ago against the pheonix suns.

you bring up how his adversary in the pacers series had a breakout performance on his defense.. he starts talking about some legendary team defense.. and cant explain why the pacers whole team offense was so successful

you bring up success versus the spurs, he starts talking how Heat would lose with HCA against paul george led pacers saying Kobe historically struggles against them.. when he hasnt seen them in the playoff in 13 fvcking years. :oldlol:


Its just walls of strawmans and diversions that have nothing to do with what was originially being discussed.:(

This is a reply to both of you morons...

The fact that you both can't admit Lebron is a vastly superior team defender than Kobe...well...shows how incredibly biased you are. It's not mythology...

You want real mythology? It's Kobe's defensive impact;

http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/

Don't you hate when people bring actual evidence?


Let me try to explain how consistency in arguments work. You bring up Kobe's history against the Spurs as evidence that he would easily beat them in the 13 finals. I of course disagree, but lets argue on your terms...which I've repeatedly tried to do.

On that line of thinking...the thinking that past history is your evidence. Then we must look at all the evidence. So here are some facts. Kobe struggles against elite defensive teams in the playoffs. He struggles against teams like the Pacers. He also struggles in elimination games. His teams are 8-10 and he has a pedestrian 21.6 point per game average while shooting 41.7% from the field.

So lets extrapolate that. Lebron and the Heat had to win 5 elimination games alone the last 2 years in the playoffs. 2 against the Celtics in 2012, 1 against the 2013 Pacers, and 2 against the 2013 Spurs.

So lets start with 2012. What is the evidence that a Kobe led Heat team get by the Celtics? Not only does Kobe have a history of struggling against that specific team, but Lebron played great in that series...lets take a look;

32/13/3
34/10/7
34/8/5
29/6/3
30/13/2
45/15/5
31/12/2

So there is simply no evidence Kobe can repeat that performance...let alone come through in two elimination games like that.

So on your own criteria...Kobe led Heat lose in 2012.

So then we get to 2013. And we get to the Pacers series. A team that ranked first in defense on the year. A team that could throw quality perimeter defenders at him...with bigs to protect the paint. A team that plays physical as well...something Kobe has struggled against in the past.

But we can even ignore all that for a second. How are the undersized Heat stopping the Pacers without Lebron? But again...lets ignore all that.

Do the Heat win game 5 with Kobe? Can Kobe dominate the 3rd qtr like Lebron did and setup Haslem for all those easy shots? I dont' know...I know it's not a lock. Especially in a game in which it was basically Lebron and Haslem vs the Pacers. There is no plausible reality in which the Heat beat the Pacers in less than 7. So...even if we assume it gets there...it all comes down to a game 7. An elimination game. A game in which Kobe averages 21.6 points on 41.7% shooting. A game against the best defensive team in the league...and Kobe's team has a huge weakness up front against this team. A game that saw Lebron go for 32/8/4 on 67% TS...a game he controlled by getting to the free throw line 16 times...making 15. A game that saw Lebron's teammates shoot 36.6%.

Again. What evidence is there that Kobe is doing that without the help of quality bigs...going against a team with great bigs and the best defensive team in the league. All while his 2nd and 3rd best player struggle hugely all series? Just not much evidence to support it.

I disagree completely with the Spurs stuff, but on your own criteria it is more likely the Heat don't make the finals in 12 or 13. Sorry.

They win in 2011 when Wade was balling like he did at his peak. That was their best team...in 12 when Bosh was healthy they were probably slightly better, but he missed a lot of the Celtics series and the while I think the Heat beat the Thunder with Kobe if they make the finals....they simply aren't making the finals in 12 with Kobe instead of Lebron.

[Doranku]

It's useless arguing with you when you're dead set on believing that the games will play out in the exact same manner with Kobe as they did with LeBron. For the 43rd time, ridiculous assumptions.

Yeah, Bronzy is a better team defender than Kobe. Kobe was a much better man defender than LeBron. LOL @ your article with RAPM being it's sole basis. I don't even know what that stands for, and I doubt you do either.

Bronzy got lit up by Paul f*cking George, but yeah he IS Miami Heat's defense. :oldlol: Talk about overrated.

That's a nice stat line for Bron in Game 7.... in a f*cking blowout. :roll: The game was over at half time. Kobe wouldn't need to be gifted 16 FTs in order to win that game. That game truly epitomized the Heat's superiority over that weak, 49 win Indiana team.

The revisionist history about this Pacers team is ridiculous. Prime Kobe would eat that team alive, quit kidding yourself and acting like they're comparable to the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, early '00 Spurs/Kings etc.

[Unbiased_one]

It's useless arguing with you when you're dead set on believing that the games will play out in the exact same manner with Kobe as they did with LeBron. For the 43rd time, ridiculous assumptions.

Yeah, Bronzy is a better team defender than Kobe. Kobe was a much better man defender than LeBron. LOL @ your article with RAPM being it's sole basis. I don't even know what that stands for, and I doubt you do either.

Bronzy got lit up by Paul f*cking George, but yeah he IS Miami Heat's defense. :oldlol: Talk about overrated.

That's a nice stat line for Bron in Game 7.... in a f*cking blowout. :roll: The game was over at half time. Kobe wouldn't need to be gifted 16 FTs in order to win that game. That game truly epitomized the Heat's superiority over that weak, 49 win Indiana team.

The revisionist history about this Pacers team is ridiculous. Prime Kobe would eat that team alive, quit kidding yourself and acting like they're comparable to the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, early '00 Spurs/Kings etc.

In terms of defensive rating, the pacers were comparable to those teams. And you still haven't addressed the key issue, which is how the heat overcome the size deficit without lebron. You also seem to be melding help defense and man defense into the same thing. Lebron is an average to very good man defender depending on how you look at it, but he is widely regarded as the greatest perimeter help defender ever, and the heat basically rely on this when they play without a conventional big. Lebron is the one who is the key to them playing their very unusual style of defense.

And I love the irony of a Kobe stan complaining about having lots of fts :lol

[sportjames23]

OP: don't want this to turn into a kobe vs lebron debate.
then decides to write half a block of sh1t on kobe vs lebron.*

anyway OP is a fakkit.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[WindmiLL]

Let's talk about how LeBron has a HISTORY of shrinking the players around him into role players. Countless players have had their worst seasons playing alongside LeBron's ball dominant offense.

Mo Wiliams agrees. That's why he was almost an all star before he played with Lebron and after Lebron left Cavs. That's also why he was thinking of quiting playing basketball(no serious injury involved) before even turning 30, when he no longer played with Lebron. Oh wait......


On the other hand, many players have seen their most success playing alongside Kobe.

Dwight Howard agrees. That's why he was so eager to sign an extension with Lakers this summer. Oh wait...

[Nash]

Did people really expect Wade and Bosh to keep the same stats with Lebron on the team? Even Lebron's stats went down. Also, how is it Lebron's fault that Wade has been playing on 1 knee and Bosh being used to stretch the floor by coach Spo?

[Doranku]

Mo Wiliams agrees. That's why he was almost an all star before he played with Lebron and after Lebron left Cavs. That's also why he was thinking of quiting playing basketball(no serious injury involved) before even turning 30, when he no longer played with Lebron. Oh wait......



Dwight Howard agrees. That's why he was so eager to sign an extension with Lakers this summer. Oh wait...

http://i43.tinypic.com/2q8136c.png



Dwight Howard agrees. That's why he was so eager to sign an extension with Lakers this summer. Oh wait...

http://feeworldorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Screen-shot-2011-08-31-at-9.28.54-AM.png

[jzek]

Jordan has 6... how many does Kobe have? :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

It's useless arguing with you when you're dead set on believing that the games will play out in the exact same manner with Kobe as they did with LeBron. For the 43rd time, ridiculous assumptions.

Yeah, Bronzy is a better team defender than Kobe. Kobe was a much better man defender than LeBron. LOL @ your article with RAPM being it's sole basis. I don't even know what that stands for, and I doubt you do either.

Bronzy got lit up by Paul f*cking George, but yeah he IS Miami Heat's defense. :oldlol: Talk about overrated.

That's a nice stat line for Bron in Game 7.... in a f*cking blowout. :roll: The game was over at half time. Kobe wouldn't need to be gifted 16 FTs in order to win that game. That game truly epitomized the Heat's superiority over that weak, 49 win Indiana team.

The revisionist history about this Pacers team is ridiculous. Prime Kobe would eat that team alive, quit kidding yourself and acting like they're comparable to the '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, early '00 Spurs/Kings etc.

The games wouldn't play out the same way. I never said they would. I just said that the Kobe led Heat lose to the Celtics in 12.

And I also said I don't think the Heat win in 13.

See. I provide real evidence. You provide nothing. You say things like..."prime Kobe would eat them alive"

Why the **** did "prime Kobe" not even eat the 06 Suns alive?????

You can't just cherry pick which previous history you are going to use. You are claiming certainty that Kobe beats the Spurs based on his previous history against them. Why can't I use the exact same logic with Kobe in elimination games and against elite defensive teams in the playoffs? It's literally the exact same thing you are doing.

I'm beating you on your own criteria. That is what is so sad about this.

Look...you have shown you just have no clue what truly makes the Heat great. If you think you can just sub in Kobe for Lebron and play Kobe/Wade/Bosh together...you are a fool. Their defense would fall the **** apart. Not to mention on offense....Kobe would never create the scoring opportunities Lebron does for the rest of the team as he's not the level of passer or shot creator Lebron is.

What Kobe can do better than Lebron is stretch the defense out with his shooting. Honestly...that's about it. And while that forces teams to play him differently...I'm not even sure it's a real advantage because Kobe takes so many more bad shots. Jesus man...you act like Kobe is a high efficiency player or something every year. He's not.

I will just keep repeating it. 22 ppg on 42% shooting in 18 career elimination games. 8-10 record. That's not good enough. Kobe would be facing a number of elimination games in 12 and 13 because the Heat weren't that ****ing good!!!!! With Bosh out against the Celtics in 12...the Heat honestly weren't any better. With Wade hurt and Bosh sucking in 13 against the Pacers...the Heat were marginally better at best...same thing with the Spurs.

Not only does Lebron play better defense...but he provides things for the Heat defensively Kobe simply can't do. And that would hurt them...

I mean...have people just forgotten how awful Wade and Bosh were in the playoffs this year? Look at Lebron's team production...it was not good. They barely won...with Kobe on that team...that margin of error is just so small the last 2 years. And you think putting two sg's out there...one of them being a shoot first player...and a player that can't play the team defense they need at the sf/pf position is going to somehow allow them to win the titles more easily? Seriously...provide something other than "because I say so"

[russwest0]

So Chauncey Billups > Karl Malone Amirite

[Unbiased_one]

So Chauncey Billups > Karl Malone Amirite

Most important /= only relevant

[havoc33]

Kobe in the 2004 finals was worse than lebron in 2011 so I'm not sure why you think Kobe would have won in those (although he may well have). What's for sure is that Kobe has never displayed the level of play that the heat needed from lebron these past two postseasons.You can say what you want about Kobe's 2004 Finals performance, but at least he TRIED and gave you effort, which is more than you can say about Lebron in 2011. Lebron totally folded under the pressure, and he nearly did it again this year against the Spurs. The fact that opposing teams STILL dare to play Lebron like he's a rookie with no jump shot says it all really. I'd like to see the Spurs try such a strategy on MJ. :oldlol:

Finals MVP is overrated though. A player can be the best and most important one on the winning team throughout the season and Playoffs, and still not win the FMVP award. Case in point, James Worthy winning it in 1988. Worthy might have had the most productive series, but no one in the right mind would say he was more important to the Lakers than Magic. In the Finals it's all matchups and adjustments, and as such a player can have a "better" series than the teams star player.

[Bandito]

You mean Kobe would carry the team with no front court, Wade on 1 knee and Bosh being injured for a good deal of the playoffs in 2012?

Kobe would have to lead a team with Joel Anthoony, Haslem, Turiaf, Juwan Howard, and Dexter Pittman in the front court. Also he would have to become a PF like Lebron because it was needed and I'm pretty sure Kobe can't be used as a PF.

Also he needs to lead the team in pts, apg and rpg while having sky high PER to fill in for Wade on 1 knee, lack of frount court and Bosh's absence in 2012.

Yeah, also tiny detail. Beat an OKC team that ran over the whole Western Conference with Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka AND Harden.

Good luck.
But Kobe wouldn't get owned like Lebron did for the first 5 games. That was a disgrace coming from an All Star supposed to be the next MJ.

[tpols]

Dmavs, your argument is that heat don't get by pacers because kobe struggles against elite defensive teams.. And you claim there is no historical evidence for kobe being able to excel in that circumstance.

But check this out.



Kobe VS Top 5 ranked defenses in the Playoffs from '99-'10

99 WCSF vs Spurs (No.1 defense)
00 WCSF vs Suns (No.3 defense)
00 WCF vs Blazers (No.5 defense)
01 WCF vs Spurs (No.1 defense)
01 Finals vs 76ers (No.5 defense)
02 WCSF vs Spurs (No.2 defense)
02 Finals vs Nets (No.1 defense)
03 WCSF vs Spurs (No.3 defense)
04 WCQF vs Rockets (No.5 defense)
04 WCSF vs Spurs (No.1 defense)
04 Finals vs Pistons (No.2 defense)
08 WCF vs Spurs (No.3 defense)
08 Finals vs Celtics (No.1 defense)
09 WCSF vs Rockets (No.4 defense)
09 Finals vs Magic (No.1 defense)
10 Finals vs Celtics (No.5 defense)

21.3 ppg - 6.5 rpg - 3.5 apg on .447%FG
21.0 ppg - 3.8 rpg - 3.4 apg on .452%FG
20.4 ppg - 4.9 rpg - 5.9 apg on .439%FG
33.3 ppg - 7.0 rpg - 7.0 apg on .514%FG
24.6 ppg - 7.8 rpg - 5.8 apg on .415%FG
26.2 ppg - 5.4 rpg - 4.8 apg on .455%FG
26.8 ppg - 5.8 rpg - 5.3 apg on .514%FG
32.3 ppg - 5.0 rpg - 3.7 apg on .434%FG
24.4 ppg - 5.6 rpg - 6.2 apg on .386%FG
26.3 ppg - 6.3 rpg - 5.8 apg on .462%FG
22.6 ppg - 2.8 rpg - 4.4 apg on .381%FG
29.2 ppg - 5.6 rpg - 3.8 apg on .533%FG
25.7 ppg - 4.7 rpg - 5.0 apg on .405%FG
27.4 ppg - 5.0 rpg - 3.7 apg on .453%FG
32.4 ppg - 5.6 rpg - 7.4 apg on .430%FG
28.6 ppg - 8.0 rpg - 3.9 apg on .405%FG

Average from '99-'10
26.4 ppg - 5.6 rpg - 4.9 apg on .443%FG

Average from '01-'10
27.6 ppg - 5.7 rpg - 5.0 apg on .447%FG

Average from '05-'10
28.5 ppg - 5.8 rpg - 4.6 apg on .442%FG

That's top five defenses he's faced.. His overall playoff stats in comparison are identical across the board except instead of shooting 45 percent he shoots a little over 44. I did a breakdown with MJ and guess what? His efficiency dips by the same exact amount.


It's just a myth...

Pacers last year had a 99.8 defensive rating.

Kings in 01 had a 99.6 defensive rating.

Kobe dropped 35/9/4 on 47 percent...


Evidence says it can go either way.. Kobe will do great terrible or somewhere in between. Overall there's almost no drop off in the playoffs though.


I am going to do a comparison for Lebron.. See how much he drops off in comparison to kobe and mj.

[Doranku]

The games wouldn't play out the same way. I never said they would. I just said that the Kobe led Heat lose to the Celtics in 12.

And I also said I don't think the Heat win in 13.

See. I provide real evidence. You provide nothing. You say things like..."prime Kobe would eat them alive"

Why the **** did "prime Kobe" not even eat the 06 Suns alive?????

You can't just cherry pick which previous history you are going to use. You are claiming certainty that Kobe beats the Spurs based on his previous history against them. Why can't I use the exact same logic with Kobe in elimination games and against elite defensive teams in the playoffs? It's literally the exact same thing you are doing.

I'm beating you on your own criteria. That is what is so sad about this.

Look...you have shown you just have no clue what truly makes the Heat great. If you think you can just sub in Kobe for Lebron and play Kobe/Wade/Bosh together...you are a fool. Their defense would fall the **** apart. Not to mention on offense....Kobe would never create the scoring opportunities Lebron does for the rest of the team as he's not the level of passer or shot creator Lebron is.

What Kobe can do better than Lebron is stretch the defense out with his shooting. Honestly...that's about it. And while that forces teams to play him differently...I'm not even sure it's a real advantage because Kobe takes so many more bad shots. Jesus man...you act like Kobe is a high efficiency player or something every year. He's not.

I will just keep repeating it. 22 ppg on 42% shooting in 18 career elimination games. 8-10 record. That's not good enough. Kobe would be facing a number of elimination games in 12 and 13 because the Heat weren't that ****ing good!!!!! With Bosh out against the Celtics in 12...the Heat honestly weren't any better. With Wade hurt and Bosh sucking in 13 against the Pacers...the Heat were marginally better at best...same thing with the Spurs.

Not only does Lebron play better defense...but he provides things for the Heat defensively Kobe simply can't do. And that would hurt them...

I mean...have people just forgotten how awful Wade and Bosh were in the playoffs this year? Look at Lebron's team production...it was not good. They barely won...with Kobe on that team...that margin of error is just so small the last 2 years. And you think putting two sg's out there...one of them being a shoot first player...and a player that can't play the team defense they need at the sf/pf position is going to somehow allow them to win the titles more easily? Seriously...provide something other than "because I say so"

What are you even talking about "beating me at my own criteria"? I'm not arguing 2012. I already said it's probable that the Heat would probably lose with Kobe instead of LeBron.

I'm arguing 2013. Why elimination games in the past against completely different teams is somehow the be-all, end-all measure for your argument simply makes no sense especially when there's not even a guarantee that the Heat with Kobe would face any elimination games.

I don't know what makes the Heat great? What makes the Heat "great" is that they're significantly better in terms of talent than every other team in the league. LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Allen/Chalmers/Haslem... no team (ESPECIALLY in the Eastern Conference) comes close to matching that.

Kobe was playing 1 on 5 against the Suns and still put up 28/6/5 on 50% shooting. Who knows what he could do if he had Wade, Bosh, and Allen on his team? Not to mention you focus on how the Heat would be worse off defensively with Kobe, yet make no mention of how their offense would be different.

Chris Bosh isn't going to be a spot-up shooter playing with Kobe. Wade would actually be able to effectively run plays to get himself going because Kobe is a MUCH better off-the-ball player than LeBron. The Heat would be able to play Joel Anthony, a very good interior defender, because the spacing issue wouldn't completely f*ck the Heat over because Kobe isn't a weak jump shooter like LeBron is.

You ignore all of this, and credit all of the Heat's success to LeBron's team defense? Really? Like... just look at what we're talking about. TEAM defense. How the f*ck is one player given all the credit for TEAM defense? Again, a rotation of Bosh/Haslem/Joel with prime Kobe and Wade as the perimeter defenders is not a bad defensive team at all to combat the Pacers. Or have you forgotten that prime Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league during his day?

[tpols]

Paul Georges three best games of his post season career...

27/11/5
28/8/5
27/4/5

All came with Lebron James as his man defender.

That simply doesn't happen with a 01, 00, 02, 03, 07, 08, 09 kobe honed in on him. Especially with Wade, who even injured would be the best perimeter player he's ever played with by far to relieve ball handling and general offensive pressure.

Bosh would also be featured more and get a ton of high post touches to make west or Hibbert work more defensively instead of having their man camp the three point line and take shots he shouldn't be taking.

Just a totally different dynamic.. With all three superstars featured instead of one. Everyone remembers wades comments before game 6


we've got to do a good job making sure me and Chris get our opportunities to succeed throughout the game. That's something we have to talk about as a team

Wade WANTED to get more burn and credit.. Bosh WANTED to run PnR and have a say in the offense. But Spo and Bron preferred the Lebron + battier/miller/allen formula and excluded them.

Doesn't happen with Kobe and their averages go up drastically.

[Bigsmoke]

pretty much

your team wins 44/45 of the time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

When did I ever say the first two rounds were tough? Never.

What you don't seem to grasp...or anyone for that matter on here...is how important Lebron's defense and playmaking were to that Heat team. Not to mention...it's not like Kobe has proven unstoppable against quality defensive teams in the playoffs. In fact, his numbers go down more than Lebron's and Wade's do against elite defenses in the playoffs.

How are the Heat defending teams and rebounding against teams like the Pacers and Spurs with Kobe instead of Lebron???? How often is Kobe going to make the kind of rotations and switches Lebron does every night?

And lets be clear. Wade was hurt and a shell of himself against the Pacers and Bosh was just his normal awful self against quality bigs...Kobe isn't changing either of those factors.

Put it this way...even if you saw a marginal tick up in offense with Kobe, it wouldn't make up for the defense and rebounding hole he would create...and the Heat's defense is the most important aspect of them winning.

And with a margin as small as the one the Heat had this year...I just don't see Kobe getting it done.

2011 was the year that Kobe would have won. The Heat had an even bigger margin of error and the only reason they were ever in danger of losing was because Lebron choked and was awful. 12 and 13 are different...

And not only all of that...just not sure what you are going to get from Kobe in a game 7. His play has been average at best with an all time stinker in 2010. He'd need two quality game 7's to win the title...and I don't see much evidence that that is going to happen.

Everyone here just seems to forget how close the Heat were to losing in 12 and 13. I swear it's like everyone forgets the Heat had to win a road game 6 in Boston in 12 just to stay alive...and forget that the Heat should have lost in 6 to the Spurs. They weren't dominant at all the last 2 years in the playoffs...it took a Lebron all time great game 6 in Boston and an absurd amount of luck to win this year.

Has Kobe ever had a game 7 in which he put up 37/12/4 on 70% TS with only 2 turnovers? Not to mention under the pressure of the finals? It's not like that game was a blowout. The Heat were only up 1 going into the 4th. Lebron played a near perfect game and the Heat still could have lost if a few things go the Spurs way in the last 2 minutes.

You're overrating Lebron big time. Peak Kobe, and most top 10-15 players (all-time) could've replaced him this last postseason and still would have won a ring.

[Bigsmoke]

Paul Georges three best games of his post season career...

27/11/5
28/8/5
27/4/5

All came with Lebron James as his man defender.

That simply doesn't happen with a 01, 00, 02, 03, 07, 08, 09 kobe honed in on him. Especially with Wade, who even injured would be the best perimeter player he's ever played with by far to relieve ball handling and general offensive pressure.

Bosh would also be featured more and get a ton of high post touches to make west or Hibbert work more defensively instead of having their man camp the three point line and take shots he shouldn't be taking.

Just a totally different dynamic.. With all three superstars featured instead of one. Everyone remembers wades comments before game 6



Wade WANTED to get more burn and credit.. Bosh WANTED to run PnR and have a say in the offense. But Spo and Bron preferred the Lebron + battier/miller/allen formula and excluded them.

Doesn't happen with Kobe and their averages go up drastically.

actually... Wade was defending George for the most part in game 1

thanx for not bringing up the fact that LeBron had PG in a straight jacket in game 7:applause:

[tpols]

actually... Wade was defending George for the most part in game 1

thanx for not bringing up the fact that LeBron had PG in a straight jacket in game 7:applause:
Wade from what I remember guarded lance Stephenson for the bulk of the series.. They were talking shit to each other and going at it.

PG was Lebron's assignment.. And he had his best series ever against him. Lebron's man defense is severely overrated.

[Bigsmoke]

Wade from what I remember guarded lance Stephenson for the bulk of the series.. They were talking shit to each other and going at it.

PG was Lebron's assignment.. And he had his best series ever against him. Lebron's man defense is severely overrated.

Wade was on Paul George in game 1.

did u watch the game or are you're just an alcoholic?

[Heilige]

If it's questionable explain why. Bosh was in a new role this year.. A much worse one for his playing style. All of the numbers back it up and if you saw the games it was obvious he was pushed out to the perimeter and featured far less.. No PnR with Bron like in their first year together where he put up 19/9.. In place of that was the drive and dish 3pt shooters game. And that's fine because it worked. But I do not want to hear that Bosh was no longer capable because he was excluded from the gameplan based on his first options playstyle

Would been a completely different system with Kobe or mj who complimented big men and the in and out game much better.


And Yea Bosh was injured during their playoff series in the east.. Where competition was old or subpar and Wade although slightly injured was still having monster games at critical points in series. But yes would've been tougher to dominate Okc like Bron did. Still possible to win just tougher.

That shit with Dallas though in 2011? Doesnt happen with Kobe or mj.. That mental collapse was worse than anything any superstar has ever done and Miami was very clearly in control early and a much much better team

So it evens out either way



Do you feel Kobe has ever had a mental collapse in the playoffs? I agree with you saying that shit with Dallas in 2011 doesn't happen with MJ. I want to believe the same for Kobe since he is one of my favorites, but how do you explain:

Game 6 in 2003 against the Spurs. Lakers lose 110 to 82.

Game 5 in 2004 against the Pistons. Lakers lose 100 to 87.

Game 7 in 2006 against the Suns. Lakers lose 121 to 90.

Game 4 in 2008 against the Celtics. Lakers lose 97 to 91. The Lakers were up 20+ at one point I believe and allowed this big comeback to happen.

Game 6 in 2008 against the Celtics. Lakers lose 131 to 92.

Game 4 in 2011 against the Mavericks. Lakers lose 122 to 86.


Would all of these above games be considered a mental collapse from Kobe? If not, how do you explain Kobe's performance in each of these games? I am not putting all of the blame on him for the performances the Lakers had in these games but he is their best player and leader of the team so a good amount of responsibility has to fall on him, imho. If you feel all of the above games don't constitute a mental collapse from Kobe, what is the reasoning for his performance in all of the above games? I want to believe he would come through against the Mavericks in the 2011 Finals, but how can you be so sure that he would?

[PJR]

LeBron is a better overall defender, more athletic, and is a better play maker than Kobe has EVER been.

EVER.

Anyone insinuating that Heat would yield better or more favourable results with Kobe in place of LeBron is completely retarded.

Kobe Bryant is one of the biggest shot jackers and most ball dominant players in NBA history. How the F*CK does anyone figure Wade(who plays the same damn position) or Bosh would managed be more featured with Kobe in place of LeBron? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tpols]

Do you feel Kobe has ever had a mental collapse in the playoffs? I agree with you saying that shit with Dallas in 2011 doesn't happen with MJ. I want to believe the same for Kobe since he is one of my favorites, but how do you explain:

Game 6 in 2003 against the Spurs. Lakers lose 110 to 82.

Game 5 in 2004 against the Pistons. Lakers lose 100 to 87.

Game 7 in 2006 against the Suns. Lakers lose 121 to 90.

Game 4 in 2008 against the Celtics. Lakers lose 97 to 91. The Lakers were up 20+ at one point I believe and allowed this big comeback to happen.

Game 6 in 2008 against the Celtics. Lakers lose 131 to 92.

Game 4 in 2011 against the Mavericks. Lakers lose 122 to 86.


Would all of these above games be considered a mental collapse from Kobe? If not, how do you explain Kobe's performance in each of these games? I am not putting all of the blame on him for the performances the Lakers had in these games but he is their best player and leader of the team so a good amount of responsibility has to fall on him, imho. If you feel all of the above games don't constitute a mental collapse from Kobe, what is the reasoning for his performance in all of the above games? I want to believe he would come through against the Mavericks in the 2011 Finals, but how can you be so sure that he would?

I mean do blowouts = mental collapses?

All of the games against Dallas were close and down to the wire. And that's where the biggest mental collapse of all took place. You could list a ton of blowout losses for every player..

[tpols]

LeBron is a better overall defender, more athletic, and is a better play maker than Kobe has EVER been.

EVER.

Anyone insinuating that Heat would yield better or more favourable results with Kobe in place of LeBron is completely retarded.

Kobe Bryant is one of the biggest shot jackers and most ball dominant players in NBA history. How the F*CK does anyone figure Wade(who plays the same damn position) or Bosh would managed be more featured with Kobe in place of LeBron? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
His ball dominance reduced Chris Bosh from 24/11 to 19/9 to standing in the corner waiting to launch threes. :oldlol:

Kobe takes shots.. He doesn't hold the ball for nearly as long though. And he can work in and out with another player much better.

Lebron made wade become disinterested in the Pacers series when he complained he and Bosh weren't getting enough burn.

Lebron = great one man army.. But he marginalized other great players with how much time he spends dribbling waiting for the perfect opportunity to score or assist.

Just what it is..

And the heat already had an elite defense before Bosh and Lebron came over.. The team defense has always been good. Kobe is a better individual man defender and could limit guys like PG far more.

[Doranku]

LeBron is a better overall defender, more athletic, and is a better play maker than Kobe has EVER been.

EVER.

Anyone insinuating that Heat would yield better or more favourable results with Kobe in place of LeBron is completely retarded.

Kobe Bryant is one of the biggest shot jackers and most ball dominant players in NBA history. How the F*CK does anyone figure Wade(who plays the same damn position) or Bosh would managed be more featured with Kobe in place of LeBron? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pippen Jordan Rodman username, and now here you are defending LeBron. Bandwagon scum.

Anyway, LeBron is much more ball dominant than Kobe. Kobe's off-the-ball/post-up abilities combined with Wade's slashing ability would yield much better results than LeBron and Wade considering Wade has been turned into a glorified role player. Same thing with Bosh.

Look at Kobe and Gasol. Gasol had (by far) his best seasons playing with Kobe. Bosh would play a similar role to LA Gasol if Kobe replaced Bronzy on the Heat. He ain't gonna be standing at the 3 point line while Bronzy dribbles the ball for 22 seconds. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Regardless of who's actually better, it's very likely with the waythings are going that LeBron will be considered a better player than Kobe all time by most people.

[RRR3]

Pjr=Patrick James Riley.

[PJR]

His ball dominance reduced Chris Bosh from 24/11 to 19/9 to standing in the corner waiting to launch threes. :oldlol:

He made wade become disinterested in the Pacers series when he complained he and Bosh weren't getting enough burn.

Lebron = great one man army.. But he marginalized other great players with how much time he spends dribbling waiting for the perfect opportunity to score or assist.

Just what it is..

You honestly do not have a clue. Just keeping it real.

[Trollsmasher]

Wade was on Paul George in game 1.

did u watch the game or are you're just an alcoholic?
Wade was assigned to PG for absolute majority of the series.

Those Kobe clowns were not even watching the games, because they were busy crying themselves to sleep.

Do not except a serious discussion with them.

[Doranku]

Wade was assigned to PG for absolute majority of the series.

Those Kobe clowns were not even watching the games, because they were busy crying themselves to sleep.

Do not except a serious discussion with them.

If LeBron is so great defensively, why did they assign Wade to guard the opposition's best player?

[Trollsmasher]

Still those excuses for Bosh:lol

LeBron makes him grab 5 defensive rebounds per game? I don't recall Bosh hanging on perimeter on defense...

Bosh did not have enough touches vs Indiana? Of course he did not. He had no chance in post against Hibbert, every single time he tried to drive on him or West, he got his shot blocked and he couldn't hit a jumpshot.

Kobetards logic - FEED THAT GUY!:lol

Still those excuses for Wade:lol

What is his excuse for getting torched by George? What is his excuse for not having a jumpshot after 10 years in the league? What is his excuse for being useless on offense, because he is permanently injured?

Kobetards logic - KOBE WOULD MAKE THIS GUY BETTER

LOL at Kobe trying to defend 6'10 Paul George, Kobe can't even defend Mike Dunleavy:roll:

[riseagainst]

Still those excuses for Bosh:lol

LeBron makes him grab 5 defensive rebounds per game? I don't recall Bosh hanging on perimeter on defense...

Bosh did not have enough touches vs Indiana? Of course he did not. He had no chance in post against Hibbert, every single time he tried to drive on him or West, he got his shot blocked and he couldn't hit a jumpshot.

Kobetards logic - FEED THAT GUY!:lol

Still those excuses for Wade:lol

What is his excuse for getting torched by George? What is his excuse for not having a jumpshot after 10 years in the league? What is his excuse for being useless on offense, because he is permanently injured?

Kobetards logic - KOBE WOULD MAKE THIS GUY BETTER

LOL at Kobe trying to defend 6'10 Paul George, Kobe can't even defend Mike Dunleavy:roll:

dam. So many smiley faces, looks like you mad.
:roll:

[2010splash]

LOL at Kobe stans thinking that Kobe could have won a single title with this Heat team!!!:oldlol: :roll:

Kobe would have no chance at all. He's needed the most dominant frontline in the league for every one of his 5 titles to provide crazy interior defense, post scoring and rebounding. LeBron gets none of these from his frontline. His frontline makes Roy Hibbert look like a hall of famer.

Call me when Kobe has to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, clutch shots, defending multiple positions, defending the best player, steals, efficiency, etc. Kobe could never lead this Heat team to a title.

SMH @ Kobe stans reaching here. You think 6/24 Game 7 performances and 40 FG% Finals series are what got the Heat these last two titles?:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Dmavs, your argument is that heat don't get by pacers because kobe struggles against elite defensive teams.. And you claim there is no historical evidence for kobe being able to excel in that circumstance.

But check this out.




That's top five defenses he's faced.. His overall playoff stats in comparison are identical across the board except instead of shooting 45 percent he shoots a little over 44. I did a breakdown with MJ and guess what? His efficiency dips by the same exact amount.


It's just a myth...

Pacers last year had a 99.8 defensive rating.

Kings in 01 had a 99.6 defensive rating.

Kobe dropped 35/9/4 on 47 percent...


Evidence says it can go either way.. Kobe will do great terrible or somewhere in between. Overall there's almost no drop off in the playoffs though.


I am going to do a comparison for Lebron.. See how much he drops off in comparison to kobe and mj.


Uhhh....that is only part of it.

the other parts....which you ignore;

1. Kobe has little help from teammates. Bosh and Wade were not playing well at all in that Pacers series.

2. Elimination games...Kobe has a history of struggling in elimination games. He'd have to face at least 1 in that Pacers series.

3. Lack of defensive versatility...this might be the most important one and I honestly can't believe that you can't understand how big a hit the Heat's defense takes trotting out Kobe 40 minutes a game instead of Lebron

Factor all that in...and it's just not likely they win based on your own criteria of using past results.

For Lebron? He's been a great elimination game and game 7 player roughly his entire career. Averaging something like 32 ppg and 46% shooting...and that was before the game 7 against the Spurs.

It's not even remotely comparable actually.

Oh...and Lebron's numbers don't matter. This isn't a hypothetical for him. He did it. We watched him do it. It wouldn't matter if he had never won a big game before. We watched him win the last 2 titles. LOL...

[PJR]

Pippen Jordan Rodman username, and now here you are defending LeBron. Bandwagon scum.



What an idiot. :oldlol:



Anyway, LeBron is much more ball dominant than Kobe. Kobe's off-the-ball/post-up abilities combined with Wade's slashing ability would yield much better results than LeBron and Wade considering Wade has been turned into a glorified role player. Same thing with Bosh.

Look at Kobe and Gasol. Gasol had (by far) his best seasons playing with Kobe. Bosh would play a similar role to LA Gasol if Kobe replaced Bronzy on the Heat. He ain't gonna be standing at the 3 point line while Bronzy dribbles the ball for 22 seconds.

This is load of shit really.

No, LeBron isn't much more ball dominant than Kobe. Kobe is one of the biggest shot jackers in NBA history. He is incredibly ball dominant, and isn't as willing of passer as LeBron either.

And LeBron is far more efficient and maximizes more possessions than Kobe. This is a FACT.

And what about Kobe and Gasol? It's a completely different dichotomy. Both of those guys were able to play their natural positions, and be featured accordingly within the Triangle. There was never ANY potential for any diminishing returns there. It's one high usage perimeter player, and one talented post player. Pretty seamless fit. The guys who had to make the numbers sacrifices on the Lakers were Bynum and Odom. You're not making some great point there. :oldlol: Completely different situation than with the Heat. And a perfect one for Kobe to play his style of play, might I add.

And how exactly has Wade been turned into a glorified role player, moron? He's top 5 in USG playing aside LeBron. And has averaged 22/5/5 50% shooting and 21/5/5 on 52% shooting the last two seasons. Those are superb numbers for a number 2. And the only reason Wade's numbers dipped this past post-season were because of his knee injury.

Bosh is casted as a THIRD option on the Heat, and he puts up respectable numbers for that role accordingly.



If LeBron is so great defensively, why did they assign Wade to guard the opposition's best player?

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22290433/heatpacers-lebron-james-defensive-assignment-allows-versatility

Educate yourself, so you can realize that Kobe isn't on LeBron James's level when it comes to versatility.

[longtime lurker]

Kobe had 5 rings and Lebron has 2. No amount of bitching and crying is going to change that. **** you people need to get over it.

[DMAVS41]

What are you even talking about "beating me at my own criteria"? I'm not arguing 2012. I already said it's probable that the Heat would probably lose with Kobe instead of LeBron.

I'm arguing 2013. Why elimination games in the past against completely different teams is somehow the be-all, end-all measure for your argument simply makes no sense especially when there's not even a guarantee that the Heat with Kobe would face any elimination games.

I don't know what makes the Heat great? What makes the Heat "great" is that they're significantly better in terms of talent than every other team in the league. LeBron/Wade/Bosh/Allen/Chalmers/Haslem... no team (ESPECIALLY in the Eastern Conference) comes close to matching that.

Kobe was playing 1 on 5 against the Suns and still put up 28/6/5 on 50% shooting. Who knows what he could do if he had Wade, Bosh, and Allen on his team? Not to mention you focus on how the Heat would be worse off defensively with Kobe, yet make no mention of how their offense would be different.

Chris Bosh isn't going to be a spot-up shooter playing with Kobe. Wade would actually be able to effectively run plays to get himself going because Kobe is a MUCH better off-the-ball player than LeBron. The Heat would be able to play Joel Anthony, a very good interior defender, because the spacing issue wouldn't completely f*ck the Heat over because Kobe isn't a weak jump shooter like LeBron is.

You ignore all of this, and credit all of the Heat's success to LeBron's team defense? Really? Like... just look at what we're talking about. TEAM defense. How the f*ck is one player given all the credit for TEAM defense? Again, a rotation of Bosh/Haslem/Joel with prime Kobe and Wade as the perimeter defenders is not a bad defensive team at all to combat the Pacers. Or have you forgotten that prime Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league during his day?


It's not about his overall play for the series. It's about each individual games. He had a couple poor games against a pathetic defense in the Suns playing with joke rules in 06.

1 on 5? Lamar Odom was playing great in that series.

See...this is the problem. You think the Heat team was way better than it was. Wade was ****ing hurt. Not only that, but he was in a slump offensively. He put up 16/5/5 on 50% TS and was hobbling all over the court. Bosh was awful...he doesn't rebound or defend well. He doesn't protect the paint well. And he wasn't even shooting well either. 12/7/2 52% TS.

Sorry, that just isn't great. And this other notion that Kobe makes Wade and Bosh better is also absurd.

It never ends with Kobe stans.

[DMAVS41]

What an idiot. :oldlol:




This is load of shit really.

No, LeBron isn't much more ball dominant than Kobe. Kobe is one of the biggest shot jackers in NBA history. He is incredibly ball dominant, and isn't as willing of passer as LeBron either.

And LeBron is far more efficient and maximizes more possessions than Kobe. This is a FACT.

And what about Kobe and Gasol? It's a completely different dichotomy. Both of those guys were able to play their natural positions, and be featured accordingly within the Triangle. There was never ANY potential for any diminishing returns there. It's one high usage perimeter player, and one talented post player. Pretty seamless fit. The guys who had to make the numbers sacrifices on the Lakers were Bynum and Odom. You're not making some great point there. :oldlol: Completely different situation than with the Heat. And perfect one for Kobe to play his style of game, might I add.

And how exactly has Wade been turned into a glorified role player, moron? He's top 5 in USG playing aside LeBron. And has averaged 22/5/5 50% shooting and 21/5/5 on 52% shooting the last two seasons. Those are superb numbers for a number 2. And the only reason Wade's numbers dipped this past post-season were because of his knee injury.

Bosh is casted as a THIRD option on the Heat, and he puts up respectable numbers for that role accordingly.




http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22290433/heatpacers-lebron-james-defensive-assignment-allows-versatility

Educate yourself, so you can realize that Kobe isn't on LeBron James's level when it comes to versatility.


Don't bother. He's so dense that he thinks man to man defense is all that matters...even though it's probably the least important type of defense.

And not to mention...Lebron always holds his men in guarded situations to very low efficiency.

I love Kobe stans...it's literally..."you never know what they'll say next"

I can't believe people are actually claiming that the Heat wouldn't get worse defensively replacing Kobe with Lebron. It's beyond stupid.

[MastaKilla]

Kobe is one of the biggest shot jackers in NBA history.



Lebron James Field Goal Attempts per game: 20.1

Kobe Bryant Field Goal attempts per game: 19.6

"Shot jacker"

[DMAVS41]

You honestly do not have a clue. Just keeping it real.

He thinks a player going from 1st option on an average team...to going to third option on a title contending team;

should see no dip in numbers.

:wtf:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron is a better overall defender, more athletic, and is a better play maker than Kobe has EVER been.

EVER.

Anyone insinuating that Heat would yield better or more favourable results with Kobe in place of LeBron is completely retarded.

Kobe Bryant is one of the biggest shot jackers and most ball dominant players in NBA history. How the F*CK does anyone figure Wade(who plays the same damn position) or Bosh would managed be more featured with Kobe in place of LeBron? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Peak Lebron isn't that much better than peak Kobe. Find your brain dude.

[Heavincent]

PJR is a dumb ass homer. Nothing to see here.

[PJR]

Lebron James Field Goal Attempts per game: 20.1

Kobe Bryant Field Goal attempts per game: 19.6

"Shot jacker"

Stop it. You're really going to drop this without applying the proper context?
Like not mentioning Kobe backed up Eddie Jones his first two seasons, or that LeBron was carrying a small market franchise on his back from day one.

Or the fact that Kobe was playing with Prime friggin Shaq his first 8 seasons, while LeBron was playing with who? Exactly.

Are we going to deny that Kobe doesn't have a shoot first, second mentality? The same guy who has told his teammates "I Eat first".

While LeBron is often criticized for not shooting ENOUGH in certain spots, and being too unselfish.

Please.




Peak Lebron isn't that much better than peak Kobe. Find your brain dude.

LeBron IS better, though. *shrugs*. And my brain functions quite well, thanks for your concern.


PJR is a dumb ass homer. Nothing to see here.

PJR forgot more basketball than you ever knew. So you just stay on the sidelines ok Princess?

[TheMarkMadsen]

Stop it. You're really going to drop this without applying the proper context?
Like not mentioning Kobe backed up Eddie Jones his first two seasons, or that LeBron was carrying a small market franchise on his back from day one.

Or the fact that Kobe was playing with Prime friggin Shaq his first 8 seasons, while LeBron was playing with who? Exactly.

Are we going to deny that Kobe doesn't have a shoot first, second mentality? The same guy who has told his teammates "I Eat first".

While LeBron is often criticized for not shooting ENOUGH in certain spots, and being too unselfish.

Please.





LeBron IS better, though. *shrugs*. And my brain functions quite well, thanks for your concern.



PJR forgot more basketball than you ever knew. So you just stay on the sidelines ok Princess?

About the career FGA comment..

Since Lebron has entered the league there have been 4-5 season where Lebron attempted more FGA per game than Kobe, and a few others where he was only .5 behind.

Also, in typical Kobe hating fashion, his early days as "playing with Shaq" can only be used if it makes him look bad. But god forbid we use it in any other situation.

You don't think Lebron joining wade and bosh brings his FGA attempts down??

An if Kobe was really the "biggest shot jacker in NBA history" then you'd think that 16 years of "shot jacking" would make up for the 2 years where he didn't get as many touches making his career. FGA sky rocket..but nope.

[DMAVS41]

About the career FGA comment..

Since Lebron has entered the league there have been 4-5 season where Lebron attempted more FGA per game than Kobe, and a few others where he was only .5 behind.

Also, in typical Kobe hating fashion, his early days as "playing with Shaq" can only be used if it makes him look bad. But god forbid we use it in any other situation.

You don't think Lebron joining wade and bosh brings his FGA attempts down??

An if Kobe was really the "biggest shot jacker in NBA history" then you'd think that 16 years of "shot jacking" would make up for the 2 years where he didn't get as many touches making his career. FGA sky rocket..but nope.

Shot jacking is not about how many shots you take. It's about how many bad shots you force up.

Kobe has never stopped doing that...while Lebron has fine tuned his game with age and become more efficient and less willing to settle.

Also, ever since Lebron has played on better teams...he's shot less. The only way you get Lebron to shoot a lot is when he doesn't have help or just needs to. With Kobe...its' clearly more of an ego thing. Hence the Shaq years in which he was trying to send a message.

[PJR]

My goodness, I can't believe you got dudes on here who trying to make a legitimate argument that Kobe isn't a shot jacker.

I can't even.

Let's just make this clear. The shot jacking label that is applied to Kobe isn't something that is completely quantifiable by numbers or shots per game, either.


Kobe IS very prone to taking ill advised, highly contested shots when there is maybe a better option either to pass the ball, or work for a better shot.

Look at what Antawn Jamison had to say about Kobe last year.


Jamison said Bryant has helped create a contentious atmosphere with him and his teammates, but the conflict has helped the team congeal.

"Kobe will tell you," Jamison said. "He's like, 'Look, you guys as my teammates, yell at me. Let me know that you're open because I'm so programmed,' and this guy has told me this, 'I see nothing but that basket. You could be open, there could be three guys on me, but the only thing I see is that basket so you have to tell me, Look, I was open. Or yell at me mid-play. That doesn't affect me at all and I respect that.' "

That is Kobe's mentality as a ball player in a nutshell.

That mentality would NOT fly on these past couple Miami Heat title teams. Which is why I found the argument some of the fools in this thread, that somehow they'd fare better with Bryant in place of LeBron absolutely ludicrous.

[TheMarkMadsen]

My goodness, I can't believe you got dudes on here who trying to make a legitimate argument that Kobe isn't a shot jacker.

I can't even.

Let's just make this clear. The shot jacking label that is applied to Kobe isn't something that is completely quantifiable by numbers or shots per game, either.


Kobe IS very prone to taking ill advised, highly contested shots when there is maybe a better option either to pass the ball, or work for a better shot.

Look at what Antawn Jamison had to say about Kobe last year.



That is Kobe's mentality as a ball player in a nutshell.

That mentality would NOT fly on these past couple Miami Heat title teams. Which is why I found the argument some of the fools in this thread, that somehow they'd fare better with Bryant in place of LeBron absolutely ludicrous.

So now "shot jacking" isn't about how many shots you take its about YOUR OPINION on how good/bad the shots are.

So when the numbers don't match your statement, turn it into a matter of opinion instead of fact.

If Kobe is the biggest jacker of all time, and hurts his team by taking what you consider bad shots, yet somehow his "bad shot selection" and "shot jacking mentality" has led him to only missing the playoffs once in his career, 5 championships, and 2 FMVPs then maybe your criteria for what you consider successful basketball is... Flawed

Looks like his way is working out pretty well

[PJR]

No one has ever said he hasn't been successful on his respective Laker title teams, genius. :facepalm


........Teams where he has had quality size up front every year, might I add.

The discussion that came about was his potential fit on the current era Miami Heat(who don't have quality size up front), in replace of LeBron. And that how ridiculous it is to insinuate that Miami would fare better all around with Kobe instead of LeBron. All things considered.

Catch up.

[Scholar]

This is such a stupid ass thread. "I don't want to turn this into a Kobe vs LeBron thread, but I'll write a novel of a post about the 2."

[Legends66NBA7]

This is such a stupid ass thread. "I don't want to turn this into a Kobe vs LeBron thread, but I'll write a novel of a post about the 2."

Yeah, noticed it too.

Infact, if Finals MVP is the most important award (stat :oldlol:), then Bill Russell holds the record (while having good numbers too), even though it wasn't recorded... he would most likely have over 6. And I know that this point has been brought up and it doesn't get respected around here on ISH.

[Doranku]

It's not about his overall play for the series. It's about each individual games. He had a couple poor games against a pathetic defense in the Suns playing with joke rules in 06.

1 on 5? Lamar Odom was playing great in that series.

See...this is the problem. You think the Heat team was way better than it was. Wade was ****ing hurt. Not only that, but he was in a slump offensively. He put up 16/5/5 on 50% TS and was hobbling all over the court. Bosh was awful...he doesn't rebound or defend well. He doesn't protect the paint well. And he wasn't even shooting well either. 12/7/2 52% TS.

Sorry, that just isn't great. And this other notion that Kobe makes Wade and Bosh better is also absurd.

It never ends with Kobe stans.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make with the Suns argument. "Overall numbers don't matter!! It's about individual games!!" Like what is your point? And lol @ "joke rules". You and your hyperboles. :rolleyes: You act like the game was completely different.

And no, the problem is that you think this Indiana Pacers team is better than what they were. They were a few points away from being taken to a Game 7 against the f*cking Carmelo Anthony-led Knicks. The Heat were simply a much more talented team. Look at what happened when the Pacers tied the series. The Heat responded with wins of:

+18
+11
+23

The games were never even within single digits during the 4th quarter. You know why? Because the Heat were a much better, more talented team. Whenever Indiana made the world think they had a chance, the Heat just THROTTLED them... because Indiana was never that good in the first place.

I never said Kobe makes them better players. I said that they will be better suited to playing to their strengths with Kobe instead of LeBron. There's only so much you can do with a guy dominating the shot clock for 22 seconds possession after possession. And if the guy isn't at the top of the key, he's standing off in the corner completely taking himself out of the play.

[DMAVS41]

I don't even know what point you're trying to make with the Suns argument. "Overall numbers don't matter!! It's about individual games!!" Like what is your point? And lol @ "joke rules". You and your hyperboles. :rolleyes: You act like the game was completely different.

And no, the problem is that you think this Indiana Pacers team is better than what they were. They were a few points away from being taken to a Game 7 against the f*cking Carmelo Anthony-led Knicks. The Heat were simply a much more talented team. Look at what happened when the Pacers tied the series. The Heat responded with wins of:

+18
+11
+23

The games were never even within single digits during the 4th quarter. You know why? Because the Heat were a much better, more talented team. Whenever Indiana made the world think they had a chance, the Heat just THROTTLED them... because Indiana was never that good in the first place.

I never said Kobe makes them better players. I said that they will be better suited to playing to their strengths with Kobe instead of LeBron. There's only so much you can do with a guy dominating the shot clock for 22 seconds possession after possession. And if the guy isn't at the top of the key, he's standing off in the corner completely taking himself out of the play.

Let me be clear. The Suns series is brought up to show you that even Kobe at his peak playing with much easier perimeter rules against a soft defense had poor games...So your assertion that Kobe is just going to shred the Spurs and or the Pacers doesn't make sense.

Also, that Suns series is indicative of what life is like without reliable teammates. Hell, Odom, in that series, was better than Wade and Bosh against the Pacers.

I actually don't think the Pacers were great. I think they were a terrible matchup for the undersized Heat with a hobbled Wade and slumping Bosh. That is the part you are missing.

Lebron just does so much for that team...especially when other players are off.

And then you have to factor in Kobe's historically average/poor elimination game play for his career. Why again do you not acknowledge this?

So we are supposed to just assume a player that has struggled in these games individually is just going to have a great game 7 against an elite defensive team that is built to give him problems...while getting very little help overall as well? Also ignore that Kobe led teams have a history of getting blownout in elimination games as well????

You combine elite defensive opponent with stout frontline...with poor help from teammates, and Kobe's poor elimination game play and you get a solid argument from "history" (again...your criteria) that the Kobe led Heat don't beat the Pacers.

And lastly...this is still me basically avoiding the fact that Lebron does things defensively for the Heat that Kobe couldn't do....and I avoid it because you like to dispute a simple fact. :facepalm

Oh...and the Heat weren't more talented than the Pacers. They just had Lebron James...

[Doranku]

This is load of shit really.

No, LeBron isn't much more ball dominant than Kobe. Kobe is one of the biggest shot jackers in NBA history. He is incredibly ball dominant, and isn't as willing of passer as LeBron either.

And LeBron is far more efficient and maximizes more possessions than Kobe. This is a FACT.

And what about Kobe and Gasol? It's a completely different dichotomy. Both of those guys were able to play their natural positions, and be featured accordingly within the Triangle. There was never ANY potential for any diminishing returns there. It's one high usage perimeter player, and one talented post player. Pretty seamless fit. The guys who had to make the numbers sacrifices on the Lakers were Bynum and Odom. You're not making some great point there. :oldlol: Completely different situation than with the Heat. And a perfect one for Kobe to play his style of play, might I add.

And how exactly has Wade been turned into a glorified role player, moron? He's top 5 in USG playing aside LeBron. And has averaged 22/5/5 50% shooting and 21/5/5 on 52% shooting the last two seasons. Those are superb numbers for a number 2. And the only reason Wade's numbers dipped this past post-season were because of his knee injury.

Bosh is casted as a THIRD option on the Heat, and he puts up respectable numbers for that role accordingly.



You do realize there's more to ball dominance than just shooting the ball, right? You know, like dribbling for 22 seconds and either making a strong drive or forcing a teammate to take a shot with the shot clock expiring. Something that Bronzy excels at.

What diminishing returns is there with Kobe and Bosh instead of Kobe and Gasol? Kobe/Bosh pick-and-pop would be even better than Kobe/Gasol because Bosh is a better jump shooter than Pau. Add Wade's slashing ability to that offense? Wow. If only it were Kobe that went to Miami instead of Bronzy. :lol

And yeah, Wade has been successful in the regular season because of how many transition opportunities the Heat get. But when the game slows down in the playoffs, Wade's production has fallen off a cliff since handing over the reins to Bronzy:

2011: 24.5/7.1/4.4 on 48.5/26.9/77.7
2012: 22.8/5.2/4.3 on 46.2/29.4/72.9
2013: 15.9/4.6/4.8 on 45.7/25.0/75.0

inb4 "Ohhhhh, but he was injuuuuuuuureddddddd all playoffs" even though his three best games came during the last four games against the Spurs in the finals. :rolleyes:




http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22290433/heatpacers-lebron-james-defensive-assignment-allows-versatility

Educate yourself, so you can realize that Kobe isn't on LeBron James's level when it comes to versatility.

Wow, you mean LeBron was put on a player with a broken jumper so that he could roam defensively? This is truly one-of-a-kind stuff that has never happened before in NBA history and it's all thanks to LeBron's unprecedented versatility!!!






























:facepalm

[DMAVS41]

Doranku

Why does Lebron consistently out-rate Kobe in many of these defensive metrics?

Could it be that he's actually a better and more versatile defender? Why should we just accept your biased opinion? Why can't you back this stuff up with actual evidence like we can?

It seems to me that if Kobe had the defensive impact you are claiming...his ratings would be higher.

[Trollsmasher]

You do realize there's more to ball dominance than just shooting the ball, right? You know, like dribbling for 22 seconds and either making a strong drive or forcing a teammate to take a shot with the shot clock expiring. Something that Bronzy excels at.

What diminishing returns is there with Kobe and Bosh instead of Kobe and Gasol? Kobe/Bosh pick-and-pop would be even better than Kobe/Gasol because Bosh is a better jump shooter than Pau. Add Wade's slashing ability to that offense? Wow. If only it were Kobe that went to Miami instead of Bronzy. :lol

And yeah, Wade has been successful in the regular season because of how many transition opportunities the Heat get. But when the game slows down in the playoffs, Wade's production has fallen off a cliff since handing over the reins to Bronzy:

2011: 24.5/7.1/4.4 on 48.5/26.9/77.7
2012: 22.8/5.2/4.3 on 46.2/29.4/72.9
2013: 15.9/4.6/4.8 on 45.7/25.0/75.0

inb4 "Ohhhhh, but he was injuuuuuuuureddddddd all playoffs" even though his three best games came during the last four games against the Spurs in the finals. :rolleyes:
First paragraph is just a piece of shit not worthy of reading, much less responding to.

So Kobe/Bosh pick and pop would miraculously work, but LeBron/Bosh somehow does not?:lol What is that miraculous thing that Kobe does that Bosh suddenly starts hitting that jumper regularly? Does he give Bosh more touches? No he does not, because he hogs the ball more than LeBron. Does he give Bosh better shots? No he does not, because he is a much worse passer:roll:

Wade's game is irrelevant when the guy is injured all the time. Kobe-led offense with Wade would look even worse than Lebron-led one, with Wade standing around as usual, providing no spacing, but having the ball in his hands for even a lesser amount of time, because Kobe is a bigger ballhogger than LeBron.

So in the end, production of both Bosh and Wade is going to be even worse than it is now, because they will have ball in their hands for lesser amount of time and the shots Kobe will (not)provide will be worse than those provided by LeBron.

And you still did not address the defensive issues you *******:lol

stay mad and gtfo, kid

[Doranku]

Doranku

Why does Lebron consistently out-rate Kobe in many of these defensive metrics?

Could it be that he's actually a better and more versatile defender? Why should we just accept your biased opinion? Why can't you back this stuff up with actual evidence like we can?

It seems to me that if Kobe had the defensive impact you are claiming...his ratings would be higher.

I've already stated previously in this thread that LeBron is a better team defender than Kobe and Kobe is a better man defender than LeBron.

I'm not saying that Kobe is a better or more versatile defender than LeBron. I'm saying that you're overrating the impact that LeBron's defense has on the game. You make it seem as if LeBron deserves all the credit for Miami's team defense which simply makes no sense.

And please show me all of this evidence you have. All I've seen is one article using a single metric (one that I've never even heard of) to make it's case. That hardly constitutes as being this inarguable evidence that you're insinuating exists out there. :rolleyes:

[tpols]

If prime 08 kobe who was NOT a shot jackers unlike 10-13 and 04,were to join with

Prime wade
Prime bosh
An assortment of good role players, and a defensive minded coach

He would win a few titles. That's the overall point. 08 kobe played very hard defense and had an amazing display of passing and scoring until he ran into a great celtics team.. One that saw Lebron shoot 36 percent against that very same celtics team. They would've given prime Lebron right now a run for his money.

But overall if Kobe can get a threepeat with Pau Gasol he can get at least one ring with a prime bosh is probably 80 percent of pau but still is a top scoring big man who is smart with the ball, good in PnR, money from midrange and who has multiple seasons of averaging double digit rebounds.

You add prime wade to the mix? That's an insane assortment of basketball talent. You get good defensive role players and shooters in Chalmers and battier to hustle off ball and that team under Spo is a top five defense in the league EASY.

Wade's help defense + prime Kobe's man defense and a hustle guy like chalmers= perimeter locked down. People forget along with Haslem and Bosh to defend down low, wade also contested a lot of shots at the rim. Their defense would mesh well.

Offensively how could it be worse.. Kobe takes 2 more shots per game than lebron but handles the ball for considerably less. Wade would have the ball in his hands more. And Bosh would be used like a real big man(like how he was used in 11).

That team would contend with the Derrick rose bulls the Pacers the old celtics the Melo knicks every year. And they'd be the favorite in every series. And definitely win multiple titles. Too much talent on one team.

[Doranku]

First paragraph is just a piece of shit not worthy of reading, much less responding to.

So Kobe/Bosh pick and pop would miraculously work, but LeBron/Bosh somehow does not?:lol What is that miraculous thing that Kobe does that Bosh suddenly starts hitting that jumper regularly? Does he give Bosh more touches? No he does not, because he hogs the ball more than LeBron. Does he give Bosh better shots? No he does not, because he is a much worse passer:roll:

Wade's game is irrelevant when the guy is injured all the time. Kobe-led offense with Wade would look even worse than Lebron-led one, with Wade standing around as usual, providing no spacing, but having the ball in his hands for even a lesser amount of time, because Kobe is a bigger ballhogger than LeBron.

So in the end, production of both Bosh and Wade is going to be even worse than it is now, because they will have ball in their hands for lesser amount of time and the shots Kobe will (not)provide will be worse than those provided by LeBron.

And you still did not address the defensive issues you *******:lol

stay mad and gtfo, kid

Kobe/Bosh pick-and-pop works better because you can't just go under every screen like you can with LeBron because Kobe doesn't have a broken ass jumper. Have you ever even played basketball? Hell, have you even watched basketball? Or do you just jerk off to box scores and articles praising LeBron for his "versatility"?

blah blah blah Wade injured blah blah blah. That excuse has been played out for far too long. You see him standing around because that's what LeBron-ball does. You stand there watching him dribble for 22 seconds and then either watch him drive, brick a jumper, or keep your hands ready for a spot up jumper that you're forced to shoot with the shot clock winding down.

And I've addressed the defensive issues a million times you illiterate f*cking inbred. You think prime Kobe isn't able to make a few plays while sagging off Stephenson like LeBron did? Give me a break. And again, by playing Kobe who is actually capable of shooting jumpers, the Heat can get away with playing Joel more minutes for defensive purposes. A frontcourt rotation of Bosh/Haslem/Joel with prime Kobe playing off of Stephenson providing weak side help is more than enough to get the job done against the offensively challenged Pacers.

The Pacers were like 20th in offense this season. :oldlol: Ya'll acting like they were some kind of offensive juggernauts. F*ck outta here with that noise.

[DMAVS41]

I've already stated previously in this thread that LeBron is a better team defender than Kobe and Kobe is a better man defender than LeBron.

I'm not saying that Kobe is a better or more versatile defender than LeBron. I'm saying that you're overrating the impact that LeBron's defense has on the game. You make it seem as if LeBron deserves all the credit for Miami's team defense which simply makes no sense.

And please show me all of this evidence you have. All I've seen is one article using a single metric (one that I've never even heard of) to make it's case. That hardly constitutes as being this inarguable evidence that you're insinuating exists out there. :rolleyes:

What?

You should at least be able to provide evidence as to why Kobe deserves to be mentioned with Lebron in terms of overall defensive impact.

I agree that Kobe is a better on ball defender...or at least I should say...Kobe is a better on ball defender when he tries.

Here is the problem though...it's not like that means they are even because Kobe is better on ball and Lebron is a better team. And I think you are saying that.

That isn't the case...Lebron is actually very good at holding his guarded man to poor efficiency..in fact, I think he trumps Kobe in this respect in most situations.

But that is not where the impact lies on defense for the Heat....Lebron just cleans up so many mistakes they make. I'm looking for the article, but I read an article about a presentation at the sloan conference in which they plugged in the ideal helpside defense into the computer and then mapped it over Lebron...and Lebron literally broke the computer. He was doing things better than the "perfect" helpside defender.

He's a freak athlete on a level Kobe just isn't...and he uses that athleticism and size to do things defensively within the team concept that Kobe simply can't...and it's a huge reason why the Heat can go small with ***** ass Bosh and still win.

I don't see any evidence that Kobe can win without having bigs protecting the paint.

Oh...and just because you haven't heard of something does not invalidate it. Ignorance is no excuse.

[Heilige]

If prime 08 kobe who was NOT a shot jackers unlike 10-13 and 04,were to join with

Prime wade
Prime bosh
An assortment of good role players, and a defensive minded coach

He would win a few titles. That's the overall point. 08 kobe played very hard defense and had an amazing display of passing and scoring until he ran into a great celtics team.. One that saw Lebron shoot 36 percent against that very same celtics team. They would've given prime Lebron right now a run for his money.

But overall if Kobe can get a threepeat with Pau Gasol he can get at least one ring with a prime bosh is probably 80 percent of pau but still is a top scoring big man who is smart with the ball, good in PnR, money from midrange and who has multiple seasons of averaging double digit rebounds.

You add prime wade to the mix? That's an insane assortment of basketball talent. You get good defensive role players and shooters in Chalmers and battier to hustle off ball and that team under Spo is a top five defense in the league EASY.

Wade's help defense + prime Kobe's man defense and a hustle guy like chalmers= perimeter locked down. People forget along with Haslem and Bosh to defend down low, wade also contested a lot of shots at the rim. Their defense would mesh well.

Offensively how could it be worse.. Kobe takes 2 more shots per game than lebron but handles the ball for considerably less. Wade would have the ball in his hands more. And Bosh would be used like a real big man(like how he was used in 11).

That team would contend with the Derrick rose bulls the Pacers the old celtics the Melo knicks every year. And they'd be the favorite in every series. And definitely win multiple titles. Too much talent on one team.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

Agree with all this, but will go further and say if you put 2005-2006 Kobe, 2006-2007 Kobe, 2007-2008 Kobe, and 2008-2009 Kobe with prime Wade and prime Bosh with an assortment of good players and defensive minded coach, he would def. win chips.


Earlier, you mentioned that just because you get blown out doesn't mean it was a mental collapse. How can you tell when Kobe has a mental collapse in a game?

[DMAVS41]

If prime 08 kobe who was NOT a shot jackers unlike 10-13 and 04,were to join with

Prime wade
Prime bosh
An assortment of good role players, and a defensive minded coach

He would win a few titles. That's the overall point. 08 kobe played very hard defense and had an amazing display of passing and scoring until he ran into a great celtics team.. One that saw Lebron shoot 36 percent against that very same celtics team. They would've given prime Lebron right now a run for his money.

But overall if Kobe can get a threepeat with Pau Gasol he can get at least one ring with a prime bosh is probably 80 percent of pau but still is a top scoring big man who is smart with the ball, good in PnR, money from midrange and who has multiple seasons of averaging double digit rebounds.

You add prime wade to the mix? That's an insane assortment of basketball talent. You get good defensive role players and shooters in Chalmers and battier to hustle off ball and that team under Spo is a top five defense in the league EASY.

Wade's help defense + prime Kobe's man defense and a hustle guy like chalmers= perimeter locked down. People forget along with Haslem and Bosh to defend down low, wade also contested a lot of shots at the rim. Their defense would mesh well.

Offensively how could it be worse.. Kobe takes 2 more shots per game than lebron but handles the ball for considerably less. Wade would have the ball in his hands more. And Bosh would be used like a real big man(like how he was used in 11).

That team would contend with the Derrick rose bulls the Pacers the old celtics the Melo knicks every year. And they'd be the favorite in every series. And definitely win multiple titles. Too much talent on one team.

We are talking about specific years though. This isn't some broad...give Kobe prime Wade and Bosh and they win. No shit...which is why I think the one thing we agree on is that the Heat were the best in 11 because that actually was prime Wade and Bosh played really well. And until Lebron choked...they were throttling really good teams...and would have throttled my Mavs.

Which is why they for sure win in 11 unless Kobe chokes like he did in the 04 finals.

But 12 and 13 are different. Kobe wouldn't have Bosh for the majority of the Celtics series. And he sure as hell wouldn't have prime Wade or Bosh in 13.

So I don't understand the point of this.

Sure...give Kobe the Wade/Bosh from 2011...and I totally agree. The problem is...Lebron didn't have them in 12 and 13.

[PJR]

What diminishing returns is there with Kobe and Bosh instead of Kobe and Gasol?

My goodness, how dense are you?

Gasol was undisputed number 2 in LA's title runs you ignoramus. Stop trying to compare the scenarios.

Bosh is basically casted as Lamar Odom in the Heat's offense. The hierarchy that is established is

1. James

2. Wade

3. Bosh

4...Everyone else (shooters/role players)

If Bosh is still casted as a THIRD OPTION on Miami, behind both a Kobe and Wade, how the hell do you figure that Bosh would be more featured? Considering LeBron is a superior playmaker, and a far more willing passer?


That's what you insinuated earlier in this thread. That he would be more featured if it was Kobe in place of LeBron in the same scenario.


Sounds pretty stupid, right? It's ok, I'll allow you to retract that foolish statement.

[Doranku]

What?

You should at least be able to provide evidence as to why Kobe deserves to be mentioned with Lebron in terms of overall defensive impact.

I agree that Kobe is a better on ball defender...or at least I should say...Kobe is a better on ball defender when he tries.

Here is the problem though...it's not like that means they are even because Kobe is better on ball and Lebron is a better team. And I think you are saying that.

That isn't the case...Lebron is actually very good at holding his guarded man to poor efficiency..in fact, I think he trumps Kobe in this respect in most situations.

But that is not where the impact lies on defense for the Heat....Lebron just cleans up so many mistakes they make. I'm looking for the article, but I read an article about a presentation at the sloan conference in which they plugged in the ideal helpside defense into the computer and then mapped it over Lebron...and Lebron literally broke the computer. He was doing things better than the "perfect" helpside defender.

He's a freak athlete on a level Kobe just isn't...and he uses that athleticism and size to do things defensively within the team concept that Kobe simply can't...and it's a huge reason why the Heat can go small with ***** ass Bosh and still win.

I don't see any evidence that Kobe can win without having bigs protecting the paint.

Oh...and just because you haven't heard of something does not invalidate it. Ignorance is no excuse.
:wtf: How do you plug "ideal help defense" into a computer? Please find this article.

Obviously LeBron is a freak athlete. No one is disputing that. And for as good as LeBron's help defense and defensive "versatility" may be, the Pacers' best 3 players still had good to great series against Miami.

You think they play even better if it were Kobe instead of LeBron? Maybe marginally, but, going by your logic, not enough to make up 18, 11, and 23 points in the games that they lost.

I'm not going to dig through countless articles bashing Kobe's defense because he has checked out in that department during recent years to find one from 8+ years ago that focuses on his prime defense. You seem to think that LeBron's defense is the sole reason that Miami destroyed the Pacers in must-win games, so clearly nothing is going to change your mind anyway.

[DMAVS41]

:wtf: How do you plug "ideal help defense" into a computer? Please find this article.

Obviously LeBron is a freak athlete. No one is disputing that. And for as good as LeBron's help defense and defensive "versatility" may be, the Pacers' best 3 players still had good to great series against Miami.

You think they play even better if it were Kobe instead of LeBron? Maybe marginally, but, going by your logic, not enough to make up 18, 11, and 23 points in the games that they lost.

I'm not going to dig through countless articles bashing Kobe's defense because he has checked out in that department during recent years to find one from 8+ years ago that focuses on his prime defense. You seem to think that LeBron's defense is the sole reason that Miami destroyed the Pacers in must-win games, so clearly nothing is going to change your mind anyway.

Simple. I'm not going to explain to you how computer simulations work...but they can be extremely accurate in contexts like this. Again...ignorance is not a reason to dispute something.

I'm not claiming it's the only reason. I'm claiming it's a big one. Yes...the Heat won game 7 by a large margin...but why? Lebron dominated that game on both ends.

And this is what I find funny. You use this blowout as evidence...but when I talk about the Spurs games 6 and 7 being close. Your response? Kobe wouldn't even have to play those games.

LOL...

So if your basic argument is that the games aren't going down the same...How do you know the Heat would make the run they did in the 2nd qtr with Kobe? Seems to me you are breaking your own rule when it favors you. Can't have it both ways.

[Heavincent]

PJR forgot more basketball than you ever knew. So you just stay on the sidelines ok Princess?

Typical internet forum "expert" :oldlol:

[PJR]

We are talking about specific years though. This isn't some broad...give Kobe prime Wade and Bosh and they win. No shit...which is why I think the one thing we agree on is that the Heat were the best in 11 because that actually was prime Wade and Bosh played really well. And until Lebron choked...they were throttling really good teams...and would have throttled my Mavs.

Which is why they for sure win in 11 unless Kobe chokes like he did in the 04 finals.

But 12 and 13 are different. Kobe wouldn't have Bosh for the majority of the Celtics series. And he sure as hell wouldn't have prime Wade or Bosh in 13.

So I don't understand the point of this.



Sure...give Kobe the Wade/Bosh from 2011...and I totally agree. The problem is...Lebron didn't have them in 12 and 13.

BINGO.

Fat chance the Heat win the title in 2012 with Kobe instead of LeBron. :oldlol:

FAT CHANCE.

They don't peat the Pacers or Celtics.

When Bosh went down during the Pacers series, the Heat's front court depth consisted off

Ronny Turiaf
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Juwan Howard


LeBron shifted to power forward during the Eastern Semis, and average 30-11-6 during against the Pacers.

Shit looks like a Prime Karl Malone type stat line. You think Kobe could replicate that production given the same circumstance? Particularly the rebounding? Stop it.

[Doranku]

My goodness, how dense are you?

Gasol was undisputed number 2 in LA's title runs you ignoramus. Stop trying to compare the scenarios.

Bosh is basically casted as Lamar Odom in the Heat's offense. The hierarchy that is established is

1. James

2. Wade

3. Bosh

4...Everyone else (shooters/role players)

If Bosh is still casted as a THIRD OPTION on Miami, behind both a Kobe and Wade, how the hell do you figure that Bosh would be more featured? Considering LeBron is a superior playmaker, and a far more willing passer?


That's what you insinuated earlier in this thread. That he would be more featured if it was Kobe in place of LeBron in the same scenario.


Sounds pretty stupid, right? It's ok, I'll allow you to retract that foolish statement.

Again, Kobe/Bosh pick-and-pop >>> LeBron/Bosh pick-and-pop

Also, Kobe's post-up abilities would open up more opportunities for both Wade and Bosh. Once the double comes, more often than not there's either a slashing lane for Wade or an open midrange shot for Bosh. That opportunity simply doesn't exist with LeBron because a.) he hardly ever goes to the post and b.) he has no post-game

Maybe more featured was the wrong choice of words. Better featured is a more accurate way of putting it which is really what I insinuated when I said that Wade and Bosh would be able to better play to their strengths with Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Again, Kobe/Bosh pick-and-pop >>> LeBron/Bosh pick-and-pop

Also, Kobe's post-up abilities would open up more opportunities for both Wade and Bosh. Once the double comes, more often than not there's either a slashing lane for Wade or an open midrange shot for Bosh. That opportunity simply doesn't exist with LeBron because a.) he hardly ever goes to the post and b.) he has no post-game

Maybe more featured was the wrong choice of words. Better featured is a more accurate way of putting it which is really what I insinuated when I said that Wade and Bosh would be able to better play to their strengths with Kobe.

Here is the problem though. The more Bosh spends time on the court, the more he is featured, the defense suffers. It's not random that Bosh plays less minutes in 12 and 13...he's a defensive liability often.

And if people can't accept that 09 and 10 Gasol is clearly a better player than Bosh ever has been...I just give up.

[tpols]

BINGO.

Fat chance the Heat win the title in 2012 with Kobe instead of LeBron. :oldlol:

FAT CHANCE.

They don't peat the Pacers or Celtics.

When Bosh went down during the Pacers series, the Heat's front court depth consisted off

Ronny Turiaf
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Juwan Howard


LeBron shifted to power forward during the Eastern Semis, and average 30-11-6 during the series.

Shit looks like a Prime Karl Malone type stat line. You think Kobe could replicate that production given the same circumstance? Stop it.
Idiot, youre transposing how Bosh and Wade played with Lebron directly to how they will play with Kobe.. two totally different players, one who is very very used to playing with skilled big men.

Kobe is way more used to playing in and out with skilled big men than Lebron is. Fact.


Therefore it is reasonable to assume he would play better with Bosh, and have his game stay at an elevated level. Wade was in contention for best SG in the league in both 11, 12 and 13 and had big games at Miamis most critical points throughout three playoff runs.

To transpose the EXACT same games, how the other teams reacted and played onto a series where the offense is run completely different is retarded.

It wouldnt play out the same.

[Doranku]

Simple. I'm not going to explain to you how computer simulations work...but they can be extremely accurate in contexts like this. Again...ignorance is not a reason to dispute something.

I'm not claiming it's the only reason. I'm claiming it's a big one. Yes...the Heat won game 7 by a large margin...but why? Lebron dominated that game on both ends.

And this is what I find funny. You use this blowout as evidence...but when I talk about the Spurs games 6 and 7 being close. Your response? Kobe wouldn't even have to play those games.

LOL...

So if your basic argument is that the games aren't going down the same...How do you know the Heat would make the run they did in the 2nd qtr with Kobe? Seems to me you are breaking your own rule when it favors you. Can't have it both ways.

I never disputed anything. I wanted you to link the article because I'm curious as to how it creates these scenarios. I never discredited anything.

How are you going to turn me using your logic back on me? :oldlol: You clearly aren't budging from your notion that the games will play out the same way, so I decided to make an argument based on YOUR logic which I clearly indicated. And instead of arguing it, you just dodge the question and call me inconsistent for trying to make an argument based on YOUR assumptions.

There's just no point in arguing with you, man. :oldlol:

[Doranku]

BINGO.

Fat chance the Heat win the title in 2012 with Kobe instead of LeBron. :oldlol:

FAT CHANCE.

They don't peat the Pacers or Celtics.

When Bosh went down during the Pacers series, the Heat's front court depth consisted off

Ronny Turiaf
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Juwan Howard


LeBron shifted to power forward during the Eastern Semis, and average 30-11-6 during against the Pacers.

Shit looks like a Prime Karl Malone type stat line. You think Kobe could replicate that production given the same circumstance? Particularly the rebounding? Stop it.

Nobody is arguing 2012. Pay attention, idiot.

[DMAVS41]

Idiot, youre transposing how Bosh and Wade played with Lebron directly to how they will play with Kobe.. two totally different players, one who is very very used to playing with skilled big men.

Kobe is way more used to playing in and out with skilled big men than Lebron is. Fact.


Therefore it is reasonable to assume he would play better with Bosh, and have his game stay at an elevated level. Wade was in contention for best SG in the league in both 11, 12 and 13 and had big games at Miamis most critical points throughout three playoff runs.

To transpose the EXACT same games, how the other teams reacted and played onto a series where the offense is run completely different is retarded.

It wouldnt play out the same.

Wait...so Kobe is magically going to make Wade healthy?

Let me ask you this. Do you think Kobe led Heat are beating the 12 Celtics?...because he wouldn't have Bosh.

And when are people going to learn...Bosh went from playing roughly 40 minutes a game in the 11 playoffs...to 32 or so the last 2 years. that is why his numbers mainly dipped. and why did he get benched? because he's a liability on defense.

So, if under your way, Bosh is playing 40 minutes a game. And you get roughly 40 minutes plus form Wade, Kobe, and Bosh...how the hell are the Heat beating teams like the Pacers? Who is stopping Hibbert and West?

There is no athletic freak that can fly all over the court like no player in history to clean up all the mistakes.

[tpols]

BINGO.

Fat chance the Heat win the title in 2012 with Kobe instead of LeBron. :oldlol:

FAT CHANCE.

They don't peat the Pacers or Celtics.

When Bosh went down during the Pacers series, the Heat's front court depth consisted off

Ronny Turiaf
Udonis Haslem
Shane Battier
Juwan Howard


LeBron shifted to power forward during the Eastern Semis, and average 30-11-6 during against the Pacers.

Shit looks like a Prime Karl Malone type stat line. You think Kobe could replicate that production given the same circumstance? Particularly the rebounding? Stop it.
Yea a series that saw Dwayne Wade drop

30/9/6
28/3/3

in their next two wins and..

41/10/3 in their clinching game 6 lol.

Do you realize what help that is? More help than most superstars EVER get in a series from a second option.

Two 30/5/5 players could demolish Indys perimeter defense far more than David West and roy Hibbert could beat up the heats bigs.

[DMAVS41]

I never disputed anything. I wanted you to link the article because I'm curious as to how it creates these scenarios. I never discredited anything.

How are you going to turn me using your logic back on me? :oldlol: You clearly aren't budging from your notion that the games will play out the same way, so I decided to make an argument based on YOUR logic which I clearly indicated. And instead of arguing it, you just dodge the question and call me inconsistent for trying to make an argument based on YOUR assumptions.

There's just no point in arguing with you, man. :oldlol:

What? I said I think the reason the Heat blew out the Pacers was because of Lebron. Look at the game...nobody else on the Heat did much of note.

You can't just remove the driving force of the team and expect the same results.

[DMAVS41]

Yea a series that saw Dwayne Wade drop

30/9/6
28/3/3

in their next two wins and..

41/10/3 in their clinching game 6 lol.

Do you realize what help that is? More help than most superstars EVER get in a series from a second option.

So are you finally coming around? That is why I said 12 was possible...and 13 isn't likely.

Lebron didn't have that Wade or even a quality Bosh roughly the entire 13 playoffs.

But even with that Wade...I don't think the Kobe led Heat get by the 12 Celtics. Not with 2 elimination games...and no ****ing way does Kobe get the Heat up after the first 5 games. So he'd have to play two elimination games without Bosh against a team that gives him trouble. Dont' see it happening.

[tpols]

So are you finally coming around? That is why I said 12 was possible...and 13 isn't likely.

Lebron didn't have that Wade or even a quality Bosh roughly the entire 13 playoffs.

But even with that Wade...I don't think the Kobe led Heat get by the 12 Celtics. Not with 2 elimination games...and no ****ing way does Kobe get the Heat up after the first 5 games. So he'd have to play two elimination games without Bosh against a team that gives him trouble. Dont' see it happening.
I never said they would get past the Celtics.. Never know how it would play out.

Also Iook at your first statement and look at your last paragraph. It makes no sense together.



But in 2013 you are not accounting for Bosh's ROLE changing. He was pushed to the perimeter against Indy..

My argument is that DOES NOT happen playing with Kobe.. He would still be a valuable asset at the free throw line extended and get plenty of touches with Kobe and Wade running off ball.. And they'd be more Bosh PnR rather than battier and chalmers setting picks and spotting up.

They're be a more involved two man game that would have Bosh more confident and playing at a higher level in all aspects of the game.

Bosh dropped a ridiculous Statline on the tough bulls Frontline in 2011.. He could do the same to the Pacers if used correctly.. Like he was pre-12 when the shooters took over the gameplan

[PJR]

Yea a series that saw Dwayne Wade drop

30/9/6
28/3/3

in their next two wins and..

41/10/3 in their clinching game 6 lol.

Do you realize what help that is? More help than most superstars EVER get in a series from a second option.

You don't have to tell me Wade was sensational during the tail end of the Pacers series. You have followed my post. I'm more partial to Wade than any goddam player in the league. :oldlol: I know he was great.

But so was LeBron.

And the Heat NEEDED LeBron's work on the interior to win that series. He was grabbing 10+ rebounds, while holding his own defensively against David West on multiple possessions.

Kobe aint doin that.

Anyways I'm done.

[Trollsmasher]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9068903/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution

That is that article just by the way.

So in that 2012 Indy series you get this starting 5 for the Heat:

Chalmers
Kobe
Wade
Battier
Haslem

Are you going to tell me that this team does not get outrebounded by at least 25 in every single game? Because that's going to happen without LeBron averaging 12 rebounds per game and outrebounding Hibbert.

And don't forget how Wade sucked for 3,5 games and it was LeBron who started him in G4 with easy baskets Kobe is incapable of producing for his teammates.

So they are not winning in 2012.

And they are definitely not winning in 2013 against Indy with Wade on one knee and Bosh who got straight up embarassed by Hibbert on defense and could not hit a basket regardless of how many ENTIRELY OPEN SHOTS he got on offense.

I don't think I need to point out how LeBron can get those teams work in a way Kobe is not capable of reproducing.

[DMAVS41]

I never said they would get past the Celtics.. Never know how it would play out.

Also Iook at your first statement and look at your last paragraph. It makes no sense together.



But in 2013 you are not accounting for Bosh's ROLE changing. He was pushed to the perimeter against Indy..

My argument is that DOES NOT happen playing with Kobe.. He would still be a valuable asset at the free throw line extended and get plenty of touches with Kobe and Wade running off ball.. And they'd be more Bosh PnR rather than battier and chalmers setting picks and spotting up.

They're be a more involved two man game that would have Bosh more confident and playing at a higher level in all aspects of the game.

Bosh dropped a ridiculous Statline on the tough bulls Frontline in 2011.. He could do the same to the Pacers if used correctly.. Like he was pre-12 when the shooters took over the gameplan

It makes sense because of Wade. At least they'd have a shot...although I don't think they would win...I think it's possible.

In 13...they just wouldn't have enough. That is my point.

Again...how are they stopping teams with Bosh playing 40 mpg? It wouldn't work.

[tpols]

Wade 'sucked' in the 12 indy series and 'got started' by Lebron in the games he was good in:oldlol:

[chazzy]

it was LeBron who started him in G4 with easy baskets Kobe is incapable of producing for his teammates.
ok

[tpols]

It makes sense because of Wade. At least they'd have a shot...although I don't think they would win...I think it's possible.

In 13...they just wouldn't have enough. That is my point.

Again...how are they stopping teams with Bosh playing 40 mpg? It wouldn't work.
Stopping teams? Frontcourts already go off on them and with Lebron playing. David West and Roy Hibbert both averaged 20/10 before game 7 when they ran out of gas and got pushed out of the paint by Miamis big men. 40/20 from your two big guys. Lebron didn't stop that from happening.

What is Roy Hibbert a 30/10 player if Kobe's there instead?

He already took a massive leap in stats from his other series to the one with Lebron and Miami. What instead of doubling his production on Lebron's help defense he's going to triple it on Kobe's? In 13 he didn't limit frontcourt anymore than chalmers and Ade did with their pesky trapping of big men. Throw kobe in and you get similarly suffocating doubles and fumbling of the ball like we saw happen with Lebron. Rebounding kobe has thrown up big numbers before and Dwayne Wade is one of the greatest rebounding guards of all time.

[longtime lurker]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9068903/the-toronto-raptors-sportvu-cameras-nba-analytical-revolution

That is that article just by the way.

So in that 2012 Indy series you get this starting 5 for the Heat:

Chalmers
Kobe
Wade
Battier
Haslem

Are you going to tell me that this team does not get outrebounded by at least 25 in every single game? Because that's going to happen without LeBron averaging 12 rebounds per game and outrebounding Hibbert.

And don't forget how Wade sucked for 3,5 games and it was LeBron who started him in G4 with easy baskets Kobe is incapable of producing for his teammates.

So they are not winning in 2012.

And they are definitely not winning in 2013 against Indy with Wade on one knee and Bosh who got straight up embarassed by Hibbert on defense and could not hit a basket regardless of how many ENTIRELY OPEN SHOTS he got on offense.

I don't think I need to point out how LeBron can get those teams work in a way Kobe is not capable of reproducing.

Wow at this stupidity :facepalm

[Trollsmasher]

Wade 'sucked' in the 12 indy series and 'got started' by Lebron in the games he was good in:oldlol:
Did you watch G3 where he dropped 5 points? Or G4 where he sucked again in the 1st half and started only once he scored on several easy baskets provided by LeBron?

I guess not. Watch some games and then come talking, kid.

[DMAVS41]

Stopping teams? Frontcourts already go off on them and with Lebron playing. David West and Roy Hibbert both averaged 20/10 before game 7 when they ran out of gas and got pushed out of the paint by Miamis big men. 40/20 from your two big guys. Lebron didn't stop that from happening.

What is Roy Hibbert a 30/10 player if Kobe's there instead?

He already took a massive leap in stats from his other series to the one with Lebron and Miami. What instead of doubling his production on Lebron's help defense he's going to triple it on Kobe's? In 13 he didn't limit frontcourt anymore than chalmers and Ade did with their pesky trapping of big men. Throw kobe in and you get similarly suffocating doubles and fumbling of the ball like we saw happen with Lebron. Rebounding kobe has thrown up big numbers before and Dwayne Wade is one of the greatest rebounding guards of all time.

You'd have to make a decision that the Heat never had to make because of Lebron. And with a series going 7 like that...a few differences is all it could take.

The point is that they'd have to go bigger at times...and without Lebron to do the stuff he does...the Heat are just so small out there with Bosh, Kobe, Wade, Chalmers...

And I don't know why you insist on assuming Wade is his normal self. If Wade was his normal self...I'd literally agree with just about everything you've said.

But he wasn't his normal self and he wasn't remotely healthy enough to consistently impact the game in the way you speak of.

And that is why I said I though the Heat still beat the 12 Thunder. When I first posted I thought it was just about the finals...not getting there. I don't think they'd make the finals in 12 because of the matchups and no Bosh against the Celtics, but Wade was still pretty much Wade in 12...

Again. That is why people need to realize that the 11 Heat were a lot better than everyone here, outside of you and me, understand. You put prime Kobe on that team in the finals against the Mavs and they might win in 4 or 5. The only thing preventing that team from trouncing the Mavs was inept Lebron play throughout the games and then epic choking at the end. I give the Mavs a ton of credit for it, but unless Kobe chokes or has an agenda...he's more than enough with Wade killing it like he did.

The Heat haven't looked as good as they did since they destroyed the 11 Celtics and 11 Bulls...going 8-2 in the process. The only other time the team looked like that was during the regular season win streak. That 11 team was the peak...if Lebron plays like he did in 12 and 13 in the finals...it's a joke.

[2010splash]

The Heat required legendary performances from LeBron to win these last 2 titles. A freakish 40/18/9 against Indiana and 45/15/5 against Boston in an elimination game were necessary in 2012, as was a 30/10/6 playoff average with a disgusting 30.3 PER. Then of course the monster 37/12 closeout Game 7 in the 2013 Finals as well.

Kobe has been able to win titles with horrendous 6/24 shooting nights in Game 7s and by being marginally better than his own teammate (Gasol 2010) statistically. He also had a beast rebounding frontcourt making his life much easier as well.

Kobe could lead this Heat team to no further than the ECF perhaps. No effin' way does he lead them to titles. He needs far more help than that.

[DMAVS41]

The Heat required legendary performances from LeBron to win these last 2 titles. A freakish 40/18/9 against Indiana and 45/15/5 against Boston in an elimination game were necessary in 2012, as was a 30/10/6 playoff average with a disgusting 30.3 PER. Then of course the monster 37/12 closeout Game 7 in the 2013 Finals as well.

Kobe has been able to win titles with horrendous 6/24 shooting nights in Game 7s and by being marginally better than his own teammate (Gasol 2010) statistically. He also had a beast rebounding frontcourt making his life much easier as well.

Kobe could lead this Heat team to no further than the ECF perhaps. No effin' way does he lead them to titles. He needs far more help than that.

They are making the finals in 2011....and likely winning if you just put prime Kobe's averages in there. Whether or not Kobe chokes is a different story.

Everything else I agree with. Not sure if you read the thread, but I basically said what you did...and then the Kobe stans came in and said if Kobe was on those Heat teams...they'd never have to play those elimination games and he wouldn't need to produce like that because he'd make Bosh much better.

Then they claimed that the defensive difference between Lebron and Kobe is meaningless.

Yep....

[NumberSix]

They are making the finals in 2011....and likely winning if you just put prime Kobe's averages in there. Whether or not Kobe chokes is a different story.

Everything else I agree with. Not sure if you read the thread, but I basically said what you did...and then the Kobe stans came in and said if Kobe was on those Heat teams...they'd never have to play those elimination games and he wouldn't need to produce like that because he'd make Bosh much better.

Then they claimed that the defensive difference between Lebron and Kobe is meaningless.

Yep....
"Kobe's averages" don't account for how severe of a downgrade Kobe would be defensively.

Sorry, but Kobe is flat out not doing jackshit on a team with no inside scoring and no rebounding. Nothing whatsoever.

[DMAVS41]

"Kobe's averages" don't account for how severe of a downgrade Kobe would be defensively.

Sorry, but Kobe is flat out not doing jackshit on a team with no inside scoring and no rebounding. Nothing whatsoever.

Who do the Heat lose to in 2011 unless Kobe chokes? The Bulls? The Celtics?

I mean...you really think prime Kobe is going from a 4-1 series in both counts to losing the series in place of Lebron?

I just don't see it. The other years with much smaller margins of error...I totally agree. But in 11...they just had a huge margin of error.

[NumberSix]

Who do the Heat lose to in 2011 unless Kobe chokes? The Bulls? The Celtics?

I mean...you really think prime Kobe is going from a 4-1 series in both counts to losing the series in place of Lebron?

I just don't see it. The other years with much smaller margins of error...I totally agree. But in 11...they just had a huge margin of error.
First of all, you're assuming they some how end the regular season with the exact same #2 seed.

2nd, the Celtics actually would pretty good at playing good D against Kobe. It's not like Dampier would be bailing him out the way Shaq and Pau have. The 2011 had absolutely no inside scoring threat and no rebounding.

The Bulls series was actually closer than people remember it being. It was 4-1, but they were all close games. I just don't see a Kobe, Wade, Bosh trio doing much against that dominant defense and rebounding. Wade is already pretty bad against the Bulls. Kobe won't really help matters.

I just don't see why you think Kobe would be so much better against the 2011 Mavs. (hint: he actually played them. It wasn't great)

[chazzy]

"Kobe's averages" don't account for how severe of a downgrade Kobe would be defensively.
Who did Lebron defend in the finals?


I just don't see why you think Kobe would be so much better against the 2011 Mavs. (hint: he actually played them. It wasn't great)
Prime

[NumberSix]

Who did Lebron defend in the finals?

Prime
I still don't see Kobe being able to do shit without a legit big man to play off of. It's how his game works best. Just like LeBron needs shooters. They need what works for their game. 2011 Heat just isn't a good squad for Kobe.

Like, I personally think Kobe could 3-peat from 2011-2013 with what Derrick Rose had to work with. I think he would fit well with Chicago.

[chazzy]

I still don't see Kobe being able to do shit without a legit big man to play off of. It's how his game works best. Just like LeBron needs shooters. They need what works for their game. 2011 Heat just isn't a good squad for Kobe.

Like, I personally think Kobe could 3-peat from 2011-2013 with what Derrick Rose had to work with. I think he would fit well with Chicago.
Based on what? People act like because the Lakers didn't go far with those garbage teams in 05-07, it defines what Kobe is or isn't capable of. He's never played with a perimeter talent like Wade, not even close. So it's foolish to say he's incapable of winning without a big because he was never in a realistic position to do so.

[tpols]

I still don't see Kobe being able to do shit without a legit big man to play off of. It's how his game works best. Just like LeBron needs shooters. They need what works for their game. 2011 Heat just isn't a good squad for Kobe.

Like, I personally think Kobe could 3-peat from 2011-2013 with what Derrick Rose had to work with. I think he would fit well with Chicago.
:facepalm

Chris. Bosh.

Did you even watch the 2011 playoffs? 19/9 good efficiency, passing great shooting scoring PnR play. In and out touches.. Bosh averaged 23/6 against the Bulls Frontline.

He is a weaker version of pau but a skilled big man nonetheless.

And then instead of Odom or artest you'd Dwayne freaking wade.

[NumberSix]

:facepalm

Chris. Bosh.

Did you even watch the 2011 playoffs? 19/9 good efficiency, passing great shooting scoring PnR play. In and out touches.. Bosh averaged 23/6 against the Bulls Frontline.

He is a weaker version of pau but a skilled big man nonetheless.

And then instead of Odom or artest you'd Dwayne freaking wade.
Still too much of a rebounding discrepancy. Add the decreased offensive efficiency and the decreased defensive contributions/versatility, I just don't see them beating the Bulls. That's not even getting into how much of a nightmare it would be trying to get Wade and Kobe to play on the same team.

[chazzy]

Still too much of a rebounding discrepancy. Add the decreased offensive efficiency and the decreased defensive contributions/versatility, I just don't see them beating the Bulls. That's not even getting into how much of a nightmare it would be trying to get Wade and Kobe to play on the same team.
Do you remember how Rose played?

[DMAVS41]

Based on what? People act like because the Lakers didn't go far with those garbage teams in 05-07, it defines what Kobe is or isn't capable of. He's never played with a perimeter talent like Wade, not even close. So it's foolish to say he's incapable of winning without a big because he was never in a realistic position to do so.

This.

There is just no reason to think, for example, 08 Kobe with Wade playing like he did in 11...and Bosh playing like he did in 11...isn't getting to the finals.

Maybe they beat the Celtics and Bulls in 6 each or something. I don't know...I'm not sure about that either. I see no reason to think the Heat don't win those series easily when they would have by far the two best players in those two series.

You win with stars in the NBA...and when a team has the two best players in a series...and those two guys happen to be all time greats in their primes...teams like the 11 Bulls and 11 Celtics just aren't winning. Hell, think about how Wade struggled at times in the Bulls series and the Heat still won in 5. The Heat were great in 11 and the only reason why they lost is because Lebron wet the bed in the finals on both ends.

Chazzy brings up a good point about Lebron's defense in the finals...honestly, that was his biggest issue and why I still say he choked more than I give the Mavs credit. He literally lost his mind defensively. He couldn't stay with Terry...he let Marion take him a number of times...he was late on rotations...leaked out early often...he just wasn't himself.

If you just put normal prime Kobe on that team. They beat the Mavs and win it all. The only way they don't with Wade playing like that...is if Kobe plays like he did in the 04 finals...and I see no reason or evidence to plug that kind of play in for Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Still too much of a rebounding discrepancy. Add the decreased offensive efficiency and the decreased defensive contributions/versatility, I just don't see them beating the Bulls. That's not even getting into how much of a nightmare it would be trying to get Wade and Kobe to play on the same team.

Offensively...it's actually less of a nightmare. Kobe's range shooting and post up game would fit better with Wade offensively.

It's on defense that you would see the big decline...but with the huge margin of error in 2011...that decline just wouldn't be enough.

And also...prime Kobe can guard Rose about as well as Lebron could...perhaps even better.

So the only way I see the Bulls winning that series is if they blow out the Heat...and I don't think that is happening. So you'd still have Rose choking his ass off...it would just be Wade and Kobe stopping him instead of Lebron.

Like I said before, everything else you say about 12 and 13 I agree with...but the 11 Heat had a huge margin of error. Huge. It's just been revised through time by Lebron stans and Mavs haters.

Not only did Lebron have to play way below average for the Mavs to win...he also had to choke horribly in every 4th qtr.

[2010splash]

They are making the finals in 2011....and likely winning if you just put prime Kobe's averages in there. Whether or not Kobe chokes is a different story.

Everything else I agree with. Not sure if you read the thread, but I basically said what you did...and then the Kobe stans came in and said if Kobe was on those Heat teams...they'd never have to play those elimination games and he wouldn't need to produce like that because he'd make Bosh much better.

Then they claimed that the defensive difference between Lebron and Kobe is meaningless.

Yep....
:roll: :roll:

[Kurosawa0]

I actually think Finals MVP is almost irrelevant. I'd be fine if they simply got rid of the award.