is LeBron James a top 15 player all time?

[kennethgriffin]

Discuss

[Fudge]

Nah, I have him at 10.

[nathanjizzle]

no, i have him at 53

[kNicKz]

one more championship and he is in the top 10. I currently have him top 15 but I would never draft him over Tim Duncan

[Bandito]

Most people have him anywhere between 50 and 49 in the all time list.

[kNicKz]

Most people have him anywhere between 50 and 49 in the all time list.
:eek:

[Lebron23]

Top 8-9

[TheReturn]

Top 5 after next year.

[kennethgriffin]

i got it like this


#1 jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Kareem
#4 Russell
#5 Wilt
#6 Magic
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem
#11 Oscar
#12 West
#13 Baylor
#14 Moses
#15 Dr J


lebrons asterisk lockout title/ray allen savior bs in the weakest era of all time with a sh*t ton of injuries to every other great player and with a ring chasing colluding team of multiple hof'rs.

just doesnt mean anything to me... never did

[arifgokcen]

Dude when are you gonna stop trolling

[Vienceslav]

Yes.

[cos88]

weak era for trolling.

the guy that controlls all of this alts on this forum needs to try harder.

[Guy Ledouche]

Of course he is. Top 10 would be a better question, and even then it would be an easy yes.

You have Kobe as the 2nd best player of all time... I cannot tell if you're being serious.

[andgar923]

Whatever position he's ranked, he's above Kobe.

So if Kobe is top 5, he's higher.

If Kobe is top 50, he's higher.

Take your pick.:confusedshrug:

[NumberSix]

I simply can't find any justification for putting Hakeem ahead of a guy who at the age of 28 already has 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs.

[Bandito]

Whatever position he's ranked, he's above Kobe.

So if Kobe is top 5, he's higher.

If Kobe is top 50, he's higher.

Take your pick.:confusedshrug:
Sorry but Kobe has always be the top while Lebron is obviously the bottom. Ask Wade...

[TonyMontana]

I simply can't find any justification for putting Hakeem ahead of a guy who at the age of 28 already has 4 MVPs and 2 FMVPs.

There is none, just like most of the players on that list. Hakeem lost in the first round 9 times. LeBron has NEVER lost in the first round. And thats with being forced to carry bad Cleveland teams for the majority of his career too.

LeBron is top 5 all-time. You can put him on ANY team in NBA History and that team is going to be a top seed. How many guys can you say that for?

[alec613]

As of right now, he's 11-13 range to me.
But when it's all said and done, he could leapfrog Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem
Perhaps jump in to top 5 should he win another ring or two

[kNicKz]

Only April 2013 has him in the top 10. If you'd take Lebron over a dominant center like Shaq or Duncan you're out of your mind

[kNicKz]

There is none, just like most of the players on that list. Hakeem lost in the first round 9 times. LeBron has NEVER lost in the first round. And thats with being forced to carry bad Cleveland teams for the majority of his career too.



So missing the playoffs entirely is better than losing in the first round? Fail harder Silkk

[TonyMontana]

So missing the playoffs entirely is better than losing in the first round? Fail harder Silkk

LeBron missed the playoffs at ages 18 and 19. Averaged 20 PPG as an 18 year old and 27 PPG as a 19 year old who led his TERRIBLE team to a 42-40 record(above .500).

Name me another 18/19 year old doing something like that.

Oh you cant? Didn't think so, sit down kid

[riseagainst]

LeBron missed the playoffs at ages 18 and 19. Averaged 20 PPG as an 18 year old and 27 PPG as a 19 year old who led his TERRIBLE team to a 42-40 record(above .500).

Name me another 18/19 year old doing something like that.

Oh you cant? Didn't think so, sit down kid

all I see are excuses.

Lebron the most overrated player in NBA history, couldn't even make the playoffs.
MJ at least made the playoffs during his youth.

[Bigsmoke]

i got it like this


#13 Baylor
#14 Moses
#15 Dr J




LeBron is top 15 because he's clearly better than those guys alone.

[funnystuff]

He jumps to the #3 spot behind MJ and Kareem if he 3 peats.

[fpliii]

There is none, just like most of the players on that list. Hakeem lost in the first round 9 times. LeBron has NEVER lost in the first round. And thats with being forced to carry bad Cleveland teams for the majority of his career too.

LeBron is top 5 all-time. You can put him on ANY team in NBA History and that team is going to be a top seed. How many guys can you say that for?

Dude what's your top 15? I think I remember you saying last month that if you did a draft, almost all of the top 15-20 would be bigs. I'm interested in reading since I think similarly.

[2010splash]

i got it like this


#1 jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Kareem
#4 Russell
#5 Wilt
#6 Magic
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem
#11 Oscar
#12 West
#13 Baylor
#14 Moses
#15 Dr J


lebrons asterisk lockout title/ray allen savior bs in the weakest era of all time with a sh*t ton of injuries to every other great player and with a ring chasing colluding team of multiple hof'rs.

just doesnt mean anything to me... never did
Kobe at 2.:roll:

Bird and Hakeem over LeBron.:roll:

Kobe is not even a top 9 player ever buddy. Not with 6/24 Game 7 clunkers and 40 % FG Finals series.

LeBron is a top 2-3 peak player ever. Easily in the top 5 all time already with 4 MVPs and 2 straight titles and the best all around stats ever.

Kobe is perhaps the 11th best player of all time. 1 MVP = not in the top 8 all time. Sorry champ.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Russell
4. Abdul-Jabbar
5. Bird
6. O'Neal
7. Bryant
8. Duncan
9. Chamberlain
10. Olajuwon
11. West
12. James
13. Robertson
14. M. Malone
15. Baylor

[riseagainst]

Lebron is not even better/greater than Bird right now. lol at lebrontards putting him in the top 5.

[fpliii]

1. Jordan
2. Johnson
3. Abdul-Jabbar
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. O'Neal
7. Bryant
8. Duncan
9. Chamberlain
10. Olajuwon
11. West
12. James
13. Robertson
14. M. Malone
15. Baylor

KG and the Doctor just missed the cut I'm guessing?

Anyhow, I count 7 Lakers there. Good shit. :cheers:

[alec613]

He jumps to the #3 spot behind MJ and Kareem if he 3 peats.
You must've forgotten about Shaq


the top 5 all time already with 4 MVPs and 2 straight titles and the best all around stats ever.

Kobe is perhaps the 11th best player of all time. 1 MVP = not in the top 8 all time. Sorry champ.

Well, many Nba legends and analysts are saying Kobe is top 10. But their opinion doesn't matter to you, right?

[Deuce Bigalow]

KG and the Doctor just missed the cut I'm guessing?

Anyhow, I count 7 Lakers there. Good shit. :cheers:
Yeah, you can't leave Elgin Baylor outside the top 15. He is probably the most underrated and forgotten legend ever. He made the Finals 8 times! Plus made the All-NBA First team 10 times in his first 11 seasons.

[LongLiveTheKing]

i got it like this


#1 jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Kareem
#4 Russell
#5 Wilt
#6 Magic
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem
#11 Oscar
#12 West
#13 Baylor
#14 Moses
#15 Dr J


lebrons asterisk lockout title/ray allen savior bs in the weakest era of all time with a sh*t ton of injuries to every other great player and with a ring chasing colluding team of multiple hof'rs.

just doesnt mean anything to me... never did
Kobe got carried by Shaq.
2009* KG and Yao injured.
2002* Refs
2010* 6-24 Game 7 compared to Lebron's game 7. :lol

[qrich]

all I see are excuses.

Lebron the most overrated player in NBA history, couldn't even make the playoffs.
MJ at least made the playoffs during his youth.

Meh, at least he didn't miss the playoffs in his prime.



lebrons asterisk lockout title/ray allen savior bs in the weakest era of all time with a sh*t ton of injuries to every other great player and with a ring chasing colluding team of multiple hof'rs.

just doesnt mean anything to me... never did

Yet, asterisks due to relying on the MDE, along with Derek Fisher/Robert Horry savior BS with a shit ton of questionable calls and losing with ring chasing HOFers means much.

But then again, you are just another god damn idiot that should be on posters of why abortion should be legal

[2010splash]

You must've forgotten about Shaq



Well, many Nba legends and analysts are saying Kobe is top 10. But their opinion doesn't matter to you, right?
Kobe is the 10th greatest player AT BEST. Meaning that is as high as you can reasonably rank a player who only won 1 MVP and didn't go on some crazy 3-peat with godly Finals stats either like Shaq did to make up for it.

LeBron has 4 MVPs to Kobe's 1, showing how much more dominant relative to his peers he was. 4 MVPs = automatic ticket to the top 5. Rare company a player is in by winning 4 MVPs.

Kobe is 10th at best, but some may argue that Moses or Hakeem were better, bumping him down to as low as 12.

[joeyjoejoe]

Simple answer is yes, he's had the skill for some time all he needed was those things that get held against a players legacy if they don't get them ring, mvp, finals mvp

[TheWalkman]

yes, unfortunately

[Unbiased_one]

Lebron realistically can be ranked from 6 to 11 for me right now (I have him at 9 now).

[red1]

he will retire top 5 and is already in the 8-11 range at the age of 28

[DaSeba5]

IMO:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. Baylor
15. Moses
16. Dr J

[PickernRoller]

He's sniffing Top 15 right now so....

Some good lists in this thread, some horrible ones. As always Lebron stans making a fool of themselves.

[Papaya Petee]

1.)Jordan
2.)Kareem
3.)Wilt
4.)Russell
5.)Larry
6.)Shaq
7.)Magic
8.)LeBron
9.)Kobe
10.)Duncan
11.)Hakeem

[tazb]

He's easily in the 9th spot at worst. With that type of resume at age 28, he can certainly end up #1.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

8-11
in a group with kobe, duncan, hakeem.

I have it:

MJ
Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Hakeem
Kobe

[longhornfan1234]

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. LeBron
10. Duncan

[joeyjoejoe]

Like this list except I'd have wilt and Kareem at 2/3 interchangeable and Russell at 4

[LAZERUSS]

Yeah, you can't leave Elgin Baylor outside the top 15. He is probably the most underrated and forgotten legend ever. He made the Finals 8 times! Plus made the All-NBA First team 10 times in his first 11 seasons.

So you applaud Baylor for making it to the Finals eight times, and yet Baylor never won a ring. And yet you rip Chamberlain and his two rings in six Finals.

I have seen this ridiculous nonsense that Bird's 3/5, and Hakeem's 2/3 are greater than Wilt's 2/6. (Of course conveniently overlooking Hakeem and his eight first round exits, five of which were blowouts...in 15 post-seasons.)

Using your logic, Baylor is probably the worst player that ever stepped on the floor. 0/8 .

BTW, where do you rank Hondo, and his 8/8?

[Kurosawa0]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. LeBron
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Shaq

[kennethgriffin]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. LeBron
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Shaq


http://i40.tinypic.com/2jbsj8w.gif



you would totally do this to lebron. admit it

[Bandito]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2jbsj8w.gif



you would totally do this to lebron. admit it
What were you looking for when you found that? Never mind don't tell me that please...

[AintNoSunshine]

He's 5 spots ahead of Kobe, go do the math yourself

[ILLsmak]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2jbsj8w.gif



you would totally do this to lebron. admit it

****ing wet, dude. Thanks.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. LeBron
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Shaq

I know you didn't just put LeBron over Shaq and Wilt.

-Smak

[Mr. Jabbar]

20-25, don't forget his rings weigh less than a foam plank

[Deuce Bigalow]

So you applaud Baylor for making it to the Finals eight times, and yet Baylor never won a ring. And yet you rip Chamberlain and his two rings in six Finals.

I have seen this ridiculous nonsense that Bird's 3/5, and Hakeem's 2/3 are greater than Wilt's 2/6. (Of course conveniently overlooking Hakeem and his eight first round exits, five of which were blowouts...in 15 post-seasons.)

Using your logic, Baylor is probably the worst player that ever stepped on the floor. 0/8 .

BTW, where do you rank Hondo, and his 8/8?
Baylor in his prime was doing work in the finals. Where as Wilt dropped off.

Finals stats
'59: 22.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg
'62: 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg
'63: 33.8 ppg, 15 rpg
'66: 25 ppg, 15 rpg
'68: 26.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg

Bird's 3 rings/5 Finals IS greater than Wilt's 2/6.

Hondo's in my 20-25 range.

[DMAVS41]

I haven't done a top 15 in a while...I think I'm changing some things with Duncan's year;

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron

That is the top 11 set in stone in my opinion after that? Gets complicated...I'm going to go with;

West
Oscar
Dirk
Moses

You could plug in a ton of different guys in those last two spots in the top 15 imo. West and Oscar deserve to be top 15...after that...no clue. I know Moses is in almost every top 15, but I think Dirk and KG were better players...but moses has a better resume...etc.

[poido123]

20-25, don't forget his rings weigh less than a foam plank

:lol:

I know you really don't like Lebron Jabbar, but he has to be higher than that. I have him between 10 and 15 right now. No denying his talent, even if he does wet the bed sometimes and takes shortcuts to legacies...

[LAZERUSS]

Baylor in his prime was doing work in the finals. Where as Wilt dropped off.

Finals stats
'59: 22.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg
'62: 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg
'63: 33.8 ppg, 15 rpg
'66: 25 ppg, 15 rpg
'68: 26.3 ppg, 12.5 rpg

Bird's 3 rings/5 Finals IS greater than Wilt's 2/6.

Hondo's in my 20-25 range.

Now, show us Wilt's stats against the same team that Baylor lost to in those Finals. PPG, RPG, and FG%. Also, show us Russell's stats against BOTH teams, as well.

Chamberlain's post-season domination far outweighs the multiple choke jobs that Bird had.

Hondo should be in ANYONE's top-20.

[fpliii]

Now, show us Wilt's stats against the same team that Baylor lost to in those Finals. PPG, RPG, and FG%. Also, show us Russell's stats against BOTH teams, as well.

Chamberlain's post-season domination far outweighs the multiple choke jobs that Bird had.

Hondo should be in ANYONE's top-20.

Who are your top 15 offensive players, defensive players, rebounders BTW?

[LAZERUSS]

Who are your top 15 offensive players, defensive players, rebounders BTW?

I don't have time this morning, and I'm not sure I could give you an answer for up to 15 per position, but I will try later on.

[INDI]

Discuss

I have him at 10 but his career is not that much better than Dr J when you include his ABA years. The players that sit outside the top 10 that have a case over bron is Hakeem and Oscar, so at worst Lebron is 12th

[fpliii]

I don't have time this morning, and I'm not sure I could give you an answer for up to 15 per position, but I will try later on.

No need for per position. Really defensive players are all that matters here, since I think everyone will have the same offensive players or rebounders in some order.

[INDI]

He's 5 spots ahead of Kobe, go do the math yourself

So if kobe is 5th alltime then Lebron is 0???

[Unbiased_one]

So if kobe is 4th alltime then Lebron is 0???

Kobe is not 4th all time.

[INDI]

Kobe is not 4th all time.

I got him at 7th which I think is where the majority of people have him. I do believe he ends up 4th alltime though


Possiibly 2nd or 3rd IF he breaks the alltime scoring record

[Unbiased_one]

I got him at 7th which I think is where the majority of people have him. I do believe he ends up 4th alltime though


Possiibly 2nd or 3rd IF he breaks the alltime scoring record

The majority of people are casual fans with a massive recency bias. As far as I'm concerned 7th is the highest he could possibly be ranked reasonably and he's not moving up.

[Lakers2877]

Right outside the top 10. Only a matter of time until he's in the top 5

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe got carried by Shaq.
2009* KG and Yao injured.
2002* Refs
2010* 6-24 Game 7 compared to Lebron's game 7. :lol

and plus the lockout season was 66 game deep :biggums: 16 "regular season" games take away everything LeBron work for that year???

thats retarded.

[INDI]

The majority of people are casual fans with a massive recency bias. As far as I'm concerned 7th is the highest he could possibly be ranked reasonably and he's not moving up.

If he became the alltime leading scorer, your telling me he doesn't budge from 7th??? Cmon man that would hugely add to his legacy.

He would absolutely pass bird at a minimum but would have good arguments for Russell who's only arguments are winning 11 rings, defense, and being a good teammate; Wilt who's argument is pure domination of his peers but everyone knows that he was so far superior that his stats are super inflated (if this is not the case then he should trump Jordan by a mile to be considered GOAT); Magic would be tough to debate but Kobe has 3 major things working in his favor over Magic. 1) Way better scorer (which is the most important aspect of basketball). 2) Way better defender (Magic was mediocre at best, while Kobe is a 12x alltime defender. 3) Longevity ( Magic probably had the shortest run out of all of the top 10 greats, while Kobe is set up to have the longest). for a longshot 4) Magic said live on tv that Kobe was better than him after they won the championship in 2010 and that was without anyone even asking him about it (how do you argue for a man that doesn't even agree with you about himself???)

I still believe Kobe would fall in a debate about him vs KAJ but that's IMO. Twenty years from now the top ten will look something like this

MJ
KAJ
Kobe
Lebron
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Duncan

Again that my IMO

[riseagainst]

lebron is almost in that top 20 range. He's about 21, just behind Scalabrine.

[INDI]

Kobe got carried by Shaq.
2009* KG and Yao injured.
2002* Refs
2010* 6-24 Game 7 compared to Lebron's game 7. :lol


Whoa didn't the heat skip through the playoffs because of injuries to key players???

Rose, Deng???
Granger???

I remember their being a ton of injuries last year too. I think you better edit your post bro

[Rose'sACL]

lebron is 51st on my list. kobe is 2nd behind jordan.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Now, show us Wilt's stats against the same team that Baylor lost to in those Finals. PPG, RPG, and FG%. Also, show us Russell's stats against BOTH teams, as well.

Chamberlain's post-season domination far outweighs the multiple choke jobs that Bird had.

Hondo should be in ANYONE's top-20.
Wilt never averaged 30+ ppg in an NBA Finals series. Baylor did twice including a 40+ ppg series, which only MJ and Barry have done.

Wilt's multiple choke jobs outweigh Bird's few.
Bird has won more championships, Bird has a better record in the NBA Finals, and Bird has a better record with HCA.

Why should Hondo be top 20? Was he better than players like Dirk, KG, Barkley, Pettit, and Dr J? That is 5 players plus the top 15 I posted.

[Pointguard]

I haven't done a top 15 in a while...I think I'm changing some things with Duncan's year;

MJ
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron

Good list (I flipped the first two old timers). Duncan has been perplexing me a bit lately. While amazing, I realize his team wins no matter how he plays in the regular season but excels in the post season when he plays well. My estimation of Pop has grown more while I realize I undervalued Duncan to a certain extent.

[stanlove1111]

one more championship and he is in the top 10. I currently have him top 15 but I would never draft him over Tim Duncan


This is such an ignorant way to look at things and it never stops on this board. Why the hell would he need one more title. You honestly don't know how good he is already.

So next year if Wade and Bosh get hurt and James still carries them to within 1 point of another title but they lose you wouldn't put him into the top 10? But if next year everyone is healthy and they win by one point in the 7th game of the finals you would put him there? Really..

You guys get old with your act like you need a certain resume to reach this or that..

How about he has been in the league about 10 years now and he is so good that we already know that he is considered the best player in the league year after year and if given help will win titles, and even without help he will challenge year after year. That's how good he is..He can retire next week and he is top 7 with Russell,Wilt,Jabbar.Bird,magic and Jordan. We already know how good he is and there is no way in hell there have been 10 better.

[Kurosawa0]

I know you didn't just put LeBron over Shaq and Wilt.

-Smak

LeBron has been far more consistent and gives better effort than either. It's why I have both at the back end. Everyone ahead of them were all in and were the hardest workers. You can't say that about Wilt or Shaq.

It's why I rank rings and awards less the higher up the list. After a player proves to be a champion and an all time great it's all about the intangibles.

Wilt put up great numbers, but a lot of the modern greats could've done so back then.

Shaq had arguably the greatest peak ever, but he also left about every team he was on in bad terms. Also he stayed around about four years too long.

[poido123]

If he became the alltime leading scorer, your telling me he doesn't budge from 7th??? Cmon man that would hugely add to his legacy.

He would absolutely pass bird at a minimum but would have good arguments for Russell who's only arguments are winning 11 rings, defense, and being a good teammate; Wilt who's argument is pure domination of his peers but everyone knows that he was so far superior that his stats are super inflated (if this is not the case then he should trump Jordan by a mile to be considered GOAT); Magic would be tough to debate but Kobe has 3 major things working in his favor over Magic. 1) Way better scorer (which is the most important aspect of basketball). 2) Way better defender (Magic was mediocre at best, while Kobe is a 12x alltime defender. 3) Longevity ( Magic probably had the shortest run out of all of the top 10 greats, while Kobe is set up to have the longest). for a longshot 4) Magic said live on tv that Kobe was better than him after they won the championship in 2010 and that was without anyone even asking him about it (how do you argue for a man that doesn't even agree with you about himself???)

I still believe Kobe would fall in a debate about him vs KAJ but that's IMO. Twenty years from now the top ten will look something like this

MJ
KAJ
Kobe
Lebron
Magic
Wilt
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Duncan

Again that my IMO


That's if you buy into longevity being a big part of any given legacy.

If Jordan were to play the 19 or 20 seasons that it will take Kobe to break the record, I'd say he would of broke it too.

Peak years IMO matter far more than longevity statistics.

[TheMan]

LeBron is a top 15 player all time right now. Where he eventually ends up is a matter of what he does the next few years. He still has 3 -4 years of peak performance before he starts to decline.

[lucky001]

MJ/Russell
Kareem
Wilt
Bird/Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
Oscar
Barry
West
Pettit

Ties at 1-2 and 5-6. Lebron's moving in to the elite of the elite territory. Barring a calamity, he should jump a few more spots before retiring.

[All Net]

He's in that 12-15 range already. No reason when he's done he can't be top 5.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt never averaged 30+ ppg in an NBA Finals series. Baylor did twice including a 40+ ppg series, which only MJ and Barry have done.

Wilt's multiple choke jobs outweigh Bird's few.
Bird has won more championships, Bird has a better record in the NBA Finals, and Bird has a better record with HCA.

Why should Hondo be top 20? Was he better than players like Dirk, KG, Barkley, Pettit, and Dr J? That is 5 players plus the top 15 I posted.

Let's take a look shall we.

First of all, let's examine the Baylor Finals, against Boston, in the years that Wilt faced that same Celtic team in the EDF's.

61-62: Baylor averaged 40.6 ppg, 17.9 rpg, and shot .430 from the field.
Chamberlain, being defended by not only Russell, but the entire Celtic team (and yes, even Russell's teammates have conceded that fact), Wilt averaged 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, and shot .468. (BTW, during their 10 regular season h2h's, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 shooting.)

Ok, how about Russell in that year's playoffs?

Against Wilt in the 61-62 EDF's, Russell averaged 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, and shot .399 (in a season in which he shot .457 against the league.)

Against Baylor's Lakers in the Finals, Russell averaged 22.9 ppg, 27.0 rpg, and shot .543 from the floor.


64-65. Baylor was injured and did not play...and the Lakers were blown out by Boston, 4-1. Interesting though, were Russell's numbers in that series:
17.8 ppg, 25.0rpg, and on, get this, .702 from the field.

BTW, how about Wilt and his 40-40 Sixers in the EDF's against Russell's 62-18 Celtics in that 64-65 post-season?
Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field.

How about Russell against Wilt in the 64-65 EDF's? 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .447 shooting.

Makes you wonder what Chamberlain would have averaged against the Lakers in the Finals in both '62 and '65 doesn't it?


65-66. Baylor averaged 24.7 ppg, 15.0 rpg, and shot .396.
In that same series, Russell averaged 23.6 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and shot .538 from the field.

Wilt against Boston in the 65-66 EDF's? 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and on a .509 FG%.
Russell against the Sixers? 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, and on a .451 FG%.


67-68. Finally, a series in which Baylor was effcient. 26.2 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and on .528 shooting. As for Russell in that series, he averaged 17.3 ppg, 21.8 rpg, and shot .430.

Chamberlain, playing with multiple injuries, and noticeably limping in the 67-68 EDF's? 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, and on a .487 FG%.
Russell? 13.7 ppg, 23.9 rpg, and on a .440 FG%.


68-69. Wilt and Baylor are now teammates.
Baylor averaged 17.7 ppg, 10.3 rpg, and shot .397 from the floor.
Chamberlain averaged 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, and shot .534 from the field.
Russell averaged 9.1 ppg, 21.1 rpg, and had a .397 FG%.


69-70 Finals. Wilt and Baylor are teammates. And Chamberlain is only four months removed from a similar major knee surgery that caused Baylor to miss the 64-65 playoffs, and in which it took Baylor well over a year to return to anything close to what he once was.

Baylor averaged 17.9 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and shot a surprising .570 from the floor.
Chamberlain averaged 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and shot .625 from the field. BTW, that was the only time in NBA Finals history in which a player ever had a 20-20 .600 series.

That was it for Baylor.


Ok, Baylor faced the Celtics in the '63 Finals, and Chamberlain faced them in the '64 Finals. Neither faced the Celtics in the playoffs in the years in which they did not make the Finals.

Baylor's '63 Finals. 33.8 ppg, 15.0 rpg, and .466 shooting.
Russell against the Lakers that year? 20.0 ppg, 26.0 rpg, and .467.

Wilt's '64 Finals. 29.2 ppg, 27.8 rpg, and .517 FG%
Russell's numbers. 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and .386 FG%.



Baylor's 66-67 Lakers were swept in the first round. Wilt's 68-13 Sixers punished Russell's 60-21 Celtics, 4-1 in the EDF's.
Wilt averaged 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, and shot .556 from the field.
Russell averaged 10.2 ppg, 23.4 rpg, and shot .358 from the field.



Now, Baylor also made the 58-59 Finals.
22.8 ppg, 11.8 rpg, and on a .383 FG%.

Chamberlain made the Finals in '71-72 and '72-73.

Wilt's numbers in the '72 Finals. 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and on .600 shooting. BTW, he won the FMVP.

Wilt's stats from the '72-73 Finals. 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg, and on a .525 FG%.


Chamberlain won a FMVP in '72, and surely would have won it in '67 had the award existed.

Of course, had Chamberlain had the luxury of facing Baylor's Lakers in the Finals in the 60's, there is no telling what kind of numbers he would have put up. We do know that Russell was trashing the Lakers in several of them, but his numbers against Wilt were considerably lower. And, for instance, in his nine regular season h2h's with the Lakers in his 61-62 season, Chamberlain averaged 51.5 ppg on .500 shooting, which included three games of 60+ (and a high game of 78 to go along with 43 rebounds.) Wilt also had two more 60+ point games against LA in his 62-63 season, including a 72 point game.


Continuing...

[pauk]

No... but top 10..... top 12-15 for him was last year....

If Lebron is #15 or even #12 in any of your lists then i am very anxious to see who those 2-5 mysterious guys are infront of him....

[Carbine]

Based on accolades and peak/prime....you could argue him in the top 10, above Hakeem.

[Lebron23]

Top 7 or 8.

LeBron has already scored more points, assists, steals than Bird and Robinson. and his playoffs stats were also better.

[LAZERUSS]

Bird vs Wilt in the post-season.

Bird has a decided edge in FT shooting. However, his total made is only a 901-757 margin.

Furthermore, before Duece brings up FTs...let's keep FT shooting in perspective. A FTA is worth one possible point and a FTM is worth one point. A FGA is worth two possible points, and a FGM is worth two points. So, using Bird's game seven of the '84 Finals, in which he shot 6-18 from the field, and 8-8 from the line, that equals an ACTUAL TS% of .455. In Chamberlain's game seven against Boston in the '69 Finals, he shot 7-8 from the floor, and 4-13 from the line. His ACTUAL TS% was .621. So CLEARLY, Chamberlin's overall TS% was markedly superior to Bird's. More on that in a bit.

And yes, Bird, was a better three-point shooter in the post-season. EXCEPT, his 3pt shooting in the playoffs was virtually non-existant. In his 164 playoff games, he made a TOTAL of 80...or less than one every two games. Not only that, but he only shot .321 from the arc. If anything, his 3pt shooting hurt his teams in the playoffs.

How many 30+ ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. How about Wilt? FOUR (33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.) How about 37 ppg series? Bird with ZERO, and Chamberlain with FOUR (37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg.) How about 50+ point playoff games? Bird with ZERO, and Wilt with FOUR, three of which came in "must-win" games (and one against Russell), with a high game of 56. How about 40+ point games in the Finals? Bird with ZERO, and a Wilt, on one leg, with a 45-27 "must-win" game (on 20-27 shooting.)

Rebounding? In Wilt's WORST post-season, covering 13 years, he averaged 20.2 rpg. In Bird's BEST post-season, covering 12 post-seasons, he averaged 14.0 rpg. He had six post-seasons of 10+, while Chamberlain had EIGHT of 24.7+, with highs of 29.1 and even 30.2. Chamberlain also had THREE playoff series of 30+, with a high of 32. Even adjusting for "pace" and Wilt was still MILES ahead of Bird.

Passing? Bird is arguably the greatest passing SF in the history of the game (although Lebron is close.) But, Wilt was easily the greatest passing center in NBA history. And a peak Wilt averaged 9.0 apg in '67, which included two pot-season series of 11 apg and 10 apg. Bird's best post-season was at 8.2 apg. And Chamberlain's outlet passing, which often did not lead directly to an assist, was among the greatest ever, as well. Furthermore, Chamberlain played in an era in which assists were much more difficult to achieve. In any case, the differences between the two are very close.

FG%? Before I even begin, Wilt played in an era where the league average FG% was between .395 to .460. Overall, it was about .435 in his career. Bird played in an era where FG%'s went thru the roof, and were between .477 to .492 (and eFG%'s were even higher.) Yet, Bird shot .472 in his 12 post-seasons, and Wilt shot .522 in his 13.

Bird's had THREE post-seasons of .500 or better, with a high of .524. He also had THREE post-seasons of .427, or worse, with a low of .408. He also had a post-season series, against the Pistons, of .341.

Chamberlain had NINE post-seasons of .500 or better, and in fact, had EIGHT that were better than Bird's BEST, with a high of .579.

And, how about their shooting in their Finals? Bird's BEST Finals, was .488, and the rest were .484, .450, .449, and even as low as .419. Chamberlain's six Finals were .517, .525, .534, .560, .600, and a high of .625.

Defense? No one in their right mind would take ANY Bird, over ANY Chamberlain. Wilt is arguably the second greatest defensive player in NBA history, and is certainly the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. BTW, Bird blocked 145 shots in his post-season career. Chamberlain likely had single post-seasons of that many.

Continuing...

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

Thanks to Colts18 for this...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

How about Wilt?


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Wilt shot .545 (18-33).

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird vs Wilt in the post-season.

Bird has a decided edge in FT shooting. However, his total made is only a 901-757 margin.
What in the ****? Of all the stats and cherrypicking you have done, none of that compares to this. Unbelievable

Furthermore, before Duece brings up FTs...let's keep FT shooting in perspective. A FTA is worth one possible point and a FTM is worth one point. A FGA is worth two possible points, and a FGM is worth two points. So, using Bird's game seven of the '84 Finals, in which he shot 6-18 from the field, and 8-8 from the line, that equals an ACTUAL TS% of .455. In Chamberlain's game seven against Boston in the '69 Finals, he shot 7-8 from the floor, and 4-13 from the line. His ACTUAL TS% was .621. So CLEARLY, Chamberlin's overall TS% was markedly superior to Bird's. More on that in a bit.
Better by comparing those two games, but for their careers? Wilt is not more efficiency than Bird. What a way to cherrypick...

Playoff careers

Bird - 23.8 ppg / 55.1% TS
Wilt - 22.5 ppg / 52.2% TS

And yes, Bird, was a better three-point shooter in the post-season. EXCEPT, his 3pt shooting in the playoffs was virtually non-existant. In his 164 playoff games, he made a TOTAL of 80...or less than one every two games. Not only that, but he only shot .321 from the arc. If anything, his 3pt shooting hurt his teams in the playoffs.
In the 3 championship years he shot over 41% from three in two of them and 37.5% in the other. Not exactly hurting his team.

How many 30+ ppg post-seasons did Bird have? ZERO. How about Wilt? FOUR (33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.) How about 37 ppg series? Bird with ZERO, and Chamberlain with FOUR (37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg.) How about 50+ point playoff games? Bird with ZERO, and Wilt with FOUR, three of which came in "must-win" games (and one against Russell), with a high game of 56. How about 40+ point games in the Finals? Bird with ZERO, and a Wilt, on one leg, with a 45-27 "must-win" game (on 20-27 shooting.)In two of those 30+ppg playoff runs his TS% was under 50. He was a very high volume scorer in his early years in the playoffs. How many of those 30+ppg runs did his team win it all?

Rebounding? In Wilt's WORST post-season, covering 13 years, he averaged 20.2 rpg. In Bird's BEST post-season, covering 12 post-seasons, he averaged 14.0 rpg. He had six post-seasons of 10+, while Chamberlain had EIGHT of 24.7+, with highs of 29.1 and even 30.2. Chamberlain also had THREE playoff series of 30+, with a high of 32. Even adjusting for "pace" and Wilt was still MILES ahead of Bird.
Rebounding and defense is what Wilt has over Bird, not going to argue that.

Passing? Bird is arguably the greatest passing SF in the history of the game (although Lebron is close.) But, Wilt was easily the greatest passing center in NBA history. And a peak Wilt averaged 9.0 apg in '67, which included two pot-season series of 11 apg and 10 apg. Bird's best post-season was at 8.2 apg. And Chamberlain's outlet passing, which often did not lead directly to an assist, was among the greatest ever, as well. Furthermore, Chamberlain played in an era in which assists were much more difficult to achieve. In any case, the differences between the two are very close.
No they were not close at all.

Bird's playoff AST% - 23.7
Wilt's playoff AST% - 12.9

Bird had a AST% of 20+ in every single playoff year except his first. Bird also had 5 years of 25%+. Wilt only had one playoff run with 20%+ and that was the one you already mentioned, '67, the year that everybody knows he was statpadding his assists.

FG%? Before I even begin, Wilt played in an era where the league average FG% was between .395 to .460. Overall, it was about .435 in his career. Bird played in an era where FG%'s went thru the roof, and were between .477 to .492 (and eFG%'s were even higher.) Yet, Bird shot .472 in his 12 post-seasons, and Wilt shot .522 in his 13.
No mention of Wilt being in the post only? While Bird did damage everywhere.
If you want to look at efficiency just from the field, then EFG% is that stat. 3-pointers are taken into account.

Bird - 48.5% eFG
Wilt - 52.2% eFG

Less than a 4 percent difference for a perimeter/post player compared to just a post player that was 7'2".

Bird's had THREE post-seasons of .500 or better, with a high of .524. He also had THREE post-seasons of .427, or worse, with a low of .408. He also had a post-season series, against the Pistons, of .341.

Chamberlain had NINE post-seasons of .500 or better, and in fact, had EIGHT that were better than Bird's BEST, with a high of .579.
This is like comparing Shaq and Jordan in FG%. One is in the post only, while the other is shooting the ball everywhere.

And, how about their shooting in their Finals? Bird's BEST Finals, was .488, and the rest were .484, .450, .449, and even as low as .419. Chamberlain's six Finals were .517, .525, .534, .560, .600, and a high of .625.
How about OVERALL efficiency.

NBA Finals True Shooting percentage

Bird - 54.5%
Wilt - 52.8%

How about Free-throw shooting too

Bird - 87.2% (177/203)
Wilt - 37.5% (124/331) - remember his regular season FT%? 51.0

Defense? No one in their right mind would take ANY Bird, over ANY Chamberlain. Wilt is arguably the second greatest defensive player in NBA history, and is certainly the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. BTW, Bird blocked 145 shots in his post-season career. Chamberlain likely had single post-seasons of that many.

Continuing...

[LAZERUSS]

Better by comparing those two games, but for their careers? Wilt is not more efficiency than Bird. What a way to cherrypick...

Playoff careers

Bird - 23.8 ppg / 55.1% TS
Wilt - 22.5 ppg / 52.2% TS


First of all, and as I explained earlier, TS% is a FLAWED stat. There is simply no RATIONAL formula which would grade a CENTER, who only took TWO 3pt attempts, and missed them both, and who shot .679 from the field, and .689 from the line...and give him a .702 TS%. It is mathematically RIDICULOUS.

BUT, having said that, the "Chamberlain-bashers" who love to bring up his poor FT% either deliberately never mentin these facts, or they are completely ignorant of them...

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

[QUOTE]1954-55
[COLOR="DarkRed"]

[zoom17]

No... but top 10..... top 12-15 for him was last year....

If Lebron is #15 or even #12 in any of your lists then i am very anxious to see who those 2-5 mysterious guys are infront of him....

lol

[LAZERUSS]

In the 3 championship years he shot over 41% from three in two of them and 37.5% in the other. Not exactly hurting his team

Now who is "cherry-picking?" Bird played in 12 post-seasons, and you give me THREE in which he even shot remotely decent? Furthermore, in those three post-seasons, which covered 58 games, he made a TOTAL of 33...or about ONE every TWO games. The reality was, he had NO IMPACT from the arc whatsoever in his post-season play, and in fact, he was DETRIMENT over the course of his playoff career.



In two of those 30+ppg playoff runs his TS% was under 50. He was a very high volume scorer in his early years in the playoffs. How many of those 30+ppg runs did his team win it all?

The "anti-Wilt" gang love to bring this up. Yep, while Chamberlain was scoring 35-39 ppg and on 50+ % FG shooting, it was his fault that his teammates had FIVE post-seasons of under 40% shooting. And STILL Wilt nearly knocked off the far more talented Celtics on two occasions, and battled them brilliantly in two more. All before he ever had even ONE teammate play well in the post-season. When he finally had teammates that were comparable, and played near their regular season levels, they blew away the Celtic dynasty. And incidently, he led that team in scoring, rebounding, assists, FG%, Offensive Win Shares, Defensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, TS%...you name it, he led them. And he was their most CLUTCH playoff scorer (as well as having the highest scoring games...and all on a far greater FG% than Greer shot.)

Let's ignore Wilt taking a 40-40 Sixer team (that was a bottom-feeder the year before he arrived), to a game seven, one point loss, against a heavily favored 62-18 HOF-laden Celtic team...in a series in which Wilt averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, shot .555 from the field (and not only outshot Russell from the line by a .583 to .472 margin...he OUTSCORED him by 31 points from the line.)



Rebounding and defense is what Wilt has over Bird, not going to argue that.


Obviously. Chamberlain was simply the greatest post-season rebounder, and shot-blocker that the NBA has ever seen. And how many extra FGAs did Wilt give his team's? And he was arguably the second greatest defensive player to have ever played. His defensive IMPACT was FAR greater than Bird's.



No they were not close at all.

Bird's playoff AST% - 23.7
Wilt's playoff AST% - 12.9

Bird had a AST% of 20+ in every single playoff year except his first. Bird also had 5 years of 25%+. Wilt only had one playoff run with 20%+ and that was the one you already mentioned, '67, the year that everybody knows he was statpadding his assists

AST%????!!!! You call this a valid stat? You are a complete idiot f you can defend this stat.

Explain this to me...

In Hakeem's 94-95 post-season run, he played 42.2 mpg, and averaged 4.5 apg, with a total of 98 assists, on a team that had 555 in that post-season, and covering 22 playoff games. In post-season in which the average team had 22.6 apg (and the Rockets averaged 25.2 apg.) His AST% is listed at 22.6%.

Now, let's take Wilt's '66-67 post-season run, shall we? He averaged 47.9 mpg in the playoffs that year. He handed out 135 assists, on a team had 401, and only covering 15 games. He averaged 9.0 apg. And in that post-season, the NBA averaged 22.9 apg, or about the same as the '94-95 average team (22.6 apg.) And his Sixers averaged 26.7 apg, or slightly more than Hakeem's Rockets (again, 25.2 apg.)

So, here was a Wilt, playing only a few more minutes. per game, in his post-season than Hakeem did in his, and in SEVEN fewer games...handing out 37 more assists, on a team with far less than Hakeem's Rockets...

...Wilt essentially DOUBLED Hakeem's per game average (9.0 to 4.5 apg)...and yet, he only had a 23.9 to 22.6 edge in AST%???!!!

Once you can explain that to me, get back to me on this Bird nearly doubling Wilt in AST%. The FACTS were...it was much more difficult to get assists in the Wilt era, than the Bird era. The REALITY was, in Bird's 85-86 season, the NBA averaged 26.1 apg, while in Wilt's '66-67 season, it was at 22.7 apg. per team. And that IS accounting for "pace."


Continued...

[LAZERUSS]

No mention of Wilt being in the post only? While Bird did damage everywhere.
If you want to look at efficiency just from the field, then EFG% is that stat. 3-pointers are taken into account.

Bird - 48.5% eFG
Wilt - 52.2% eFG

Less than a 4 percent difference for a perimeter/post player compared to just a post player that was 7'2".



This is REALLY laughable. Bird had a post-season eFG% of .485...in league's that shot BETTER than that. The eFG%'s of Bird's era were .490+.

Chamberlain had a post-season eFG% of .522, in a post-season NBA that AVERAGED about .435 shooting over the course of his career. He was outshooting his peers by staggering margins.

Of course, you never mention the ERA FG%'s do you? Even though a PRIME Kareem couldn't shoot .440 against Thurmond in some 40 career h2h's (and only shot .464 against Wilt in 28), and yet he outscored Hakeem in their 23 h2h's, and from ages 37 thru 41...and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin. Hell, a 38-39 year Kareem averaged 33 ppg on a .630 FG% against a 22-23 year old Hakeem in 10 straight games.



How about OVERALL efficiency.

NBA Finals True Shooting percentage

Bird - 54.5%
Wilt - 52.8%

How about Free-throw shooting too

Bird - 87.2% (177/203)
Wilt - 37.5% (124/331) - remember his regular season FT%? 51.0


Once again, I trashed this nonsense in my post above. Wilt's ACTUAL TS% was MUCH higher than his LISTED post-season TS%...and if you factor in ERA LEAGUE AVERAGE, it just blows Bird away.

Furthermore, and as I alluded to earlier, Bird's huge edge in FT% resulted in only a slight edge in FTs MADE. Nor does it account for the fact that Wilt's true IMPACT was greater.


Once again, aside from the FT edge, which was not nearly as great as the FT%, and the non-existant edge in 3pt shooting, Chamberlain was...

the better scorer, and by a huge margin; the far more efficient shooter, especially against league averages; the far greater rebounder; the near EQUAL of Bird in passing (and a peak Chamberlain was better than Bird ever was); and a far more dominant defensive presence.

And Chamberlain NEVER had the post-season meltdowns that Bird had. Wilt was arguably the best center on the floor in 28 of his 29 post-seasons (and those that actually saw Wilt in the '72 WCF's would make it 29-29), and the best player on the floor in probably at least 25 of them. Bird can't make that claim. There were times he wasn't even the third best player on the floor in his post-seasons.