Some 93 Hakeem Hypotheticals

[fpliii]

These questions are all pertaining to Hakeem directly, for the purpose of this thread presume everybody else on the 93 Rockets team performs identically:

1) What does Hakeem have to do differently to beat the Sonics?

2) Would the Rockets beat the Suns? If not, what would he have to do in order to make it to the Finals?

3) Would the Rockets beat the Bulls? If not, what would he have to do in order to win the title?

4) Presume the Rockets beat the Bulls due to Hakeem's elevated performance through (3). How differently do you view Hakeem's legacy?

Again, only Hakeem performs differently here, everything else is unchanged.

[rhythmic]

He honestly has become to MOST overrated player in history.
Yes he had a great skill-set but my god the way some of you refer to this player is absurd. He lost 9 times in the 1st round...

Let that sink in for a moment.
He had some epic seasons no doubt, 94 & 95 he was a monster.
But then again a healthy Bill Walton was a monster too, arguably a top 5 peak of All-Time (to me anyways). But injuries ruined his chances of cementing a potentially top 10 resume.

Hakeem is a borderline top 10 player, but as far as his overall resume is concerned and his consistency (and more importantly, him being a winner). He perhaps has become the most overrated of them all!

[fpliii]

He honestly has become to MOST overrated player in history.
Yes he had a great skill-set but my god the way some of you refer to this player is absurd. He lost 9 times in the 1st round...

Let that sink in for a moment.
He had some epic seasons no doubt, 94 & 95 he was a monster.
But then again a healthy Bill Walton was a monster too, arguably a top 5 peak of All-Time (to me anyways). But injuries ruined his chances of cementing a potentially top 10 resume.

Hakeem is a borderline top 10 player, but as far as his overall resume is concerned and his consistency (and more importantly, him being a winner). He perhaps has become the most overrated of them all!

(4) isn't really important for this, I'm not too concerned with the all-time thing (just through it in as a starter). For (1)-(3), what do you think he has to do differently?

[Deuce Bigalow]

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[juju151111]

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[rhythmic]

(4) isn't really important for this, I'm not too concerned with the all-time thing (just through it in as a starter). For (1)-(3), what do you think he has to do differently?

I don't think he can beat Jordan with just Kenny Smith, V. Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry & Carl. He'd simply need better teammates.

They took Seattle to game 7 and lost by 3 in overtime.
Hakeem was brilliant in the early to mid 90's, there's nothing more he needed to do. He was an MVP cnadidate and a DPOTY candidate every year, he was doing everything for that team.

He led his team in points, rebounds, blocks, steals and was 3rd in assists as a center. Guy was more to that team then LeBron was to Cleveland, IMO.

[fpliii]

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[rhythmic]

The first round exit means noting. Shaq got swept a lot who cares. The only thing that should matter is production. He was producing at crazy levels during those games, but his teammates wasn't. What's the difference in 86 when he made the finals. He was playing the same way at a high level. Give Hakeem a pippen,parker,shaq,worthy, etc..... Throughout his career and you would be praising how good he was because he made it further and had more success.

We can stick to hypotheticals all we want, fact is he is VERY overrated based on his resume. His peak play? Sure, he was brilliant.

Kobe took Phoenix to 7 games, a far superior team with A LOT less then Hakeem has lost with 9 times. Save the excuses, seriously.

[juju151111]

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[rhythmic]

PS - I am not hating on The Dream, in fact, I think his peak play is top five all-time. I respect and admire his skill set and if it wasn't for Jordan (and perhaps, better teammates) he could have achieved A LOT more. But I hate the what-if game, bottom line his resume at the end of his career does not stack up with the rest of the players like Jordan, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Shaquille, LeBron, Kobe, Kareem etc.

Heck, even Moses arguably has had a better career.

[juju151111]

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[Mr Exlax]

The first round exit means noting. Shaq got swept a lot who cares. The only thing that should matter is production. He was producing at crazy levels during those games, but his teammates wasn't. What's the difference in 86 when he made the finals. He was playing the same way at a high level. Give Hakeem a pippen,parker,shaq,worthy, etc..... Throughout his career and you would be praising how good he was because he made it further and had more success.

This minus the 86 stuff because I was only 4 and didn't know what basketball was lol. Everything else though I totally agree with.

[SilkkTheShocker]

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[Mr Exlax]

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[rhythmic]

He was great in the 80s too.

I mean as an overall leader & player.
He was top 5 in MVP voting from 92' to 96'.

Hakeem has always been great, but you give those other legends 9 chances to win a 1st round series and I don't think they'd fail.

Kobe almost achieved that in 2 tries, against a far superior team with far less talent then Hakeem had. Heck, Kobe dropped 50 in game 6 and if his bum ass teammates would attempt to defend & rebound, chances are Tim Thomas never gets off that 3.

[juju151111]

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[Deuce Bigalow]

Was it really 9 times he lost in the 1st round? Wow. Thats even worse. I thought it was 8.
Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I don't think Hakeem is overrated at all for the record. But he seems to be in the MJ class where nothing can be said about their career lows. I think its amazing what he did with some of those average at best Rocket teams. I mean the guy went to war with Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell. Not bad players by any means. But compared to the rest of the league, not impressive.

[juju151111]

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[rhythmic]

Look at the teammates they all had vs the ones Hakeem had though bro. I mean, you're looking at team accomplishments correct? If we're comparing players then you kinda sorta have to look at their career numbers I would think.

This is why it's so hard to rank players.
I am looking at his overall resume, and what is missing? (or shall I say lacking in comparison to other greats)

Winning, and to some extent personal accomplishments.
At his peak? Probably top 5 player, easily top 10.
Overall impact? Easily top 15...you have guys like Moses, Baylor & Oscar who had a huge impact as well.

I don't know, I just have a hard time ranking Hakeem in the top 10 based on his resume. His 1 MVP, 2 DPOTY, 2 Finals MVP just doesn't look as great as the other 10 players I have on my list.

I would place him either 11th or 12th, it's between him and Moses to me.
I still think I'm giving him the utmost respect, no?

[Marchesk]

But he seems to be in the MJ class where nothing can be said about their career lows.

What career lows? You mean playoff exits to superior teams? Or when MJ returned from baseball and the Bulls lost to Orlando?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.

Its all opinion. In my personal opinion, that is way too many damn times to lose in the 1st round. Only one team can win the championship, but you want to advance as far as possible. Like I said, Hakeem tends to get Jordan treatment. Not overrated, but legend has grown since retirement. It happens. I expect KG to get the same treatment when he calls it quits.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What career lows? You mean playoff exits to superior teams? Or when MJ returned from baseball and the Bulls lost to Orlando?

I never said Jordan had a ton of career lows. But its almost sacrilegious to say anything that isn't praising either guy. I don't really see how Hakeem deserves that distinction.

[juju151111]

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[rhythmic]

Again, how many times did he lose in the first round WITH HCA? Who cares if he lost when he had a bad team? Wilt for example lost in the first round with HCA to a sub .500 team in '61, I'm willing to bet Hakeem did not.

Okay, so we should not include winning & personal achievements then?
Why isn't Oscar on anyone's top 10 list then? Wilt is on the list because his individual impact is legendary, moreso then Hakeem. People love to fantasize about his inflated numbers.

Heck, I probably respect Hakeem more then Wilt when it comes to winning anyways. I understand that Hakeem had bad teammates throughout his career, but in retrospect shall I give him someone else's spot because of it?

He still lost 9 times, that's A LOT. That definitely influences my ranking. I mean, if you're a legend... a top 10 player of all-time, I'd think you can at least upset a team ONCE in nine ****ing tries.

[Mr Exlax]

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[fpliii]

Its all opinion. In my personal opinion, that is way too many damn times to lose in the 1st round. Only one team can win the championship, but you want to advance as far as possible. Like I said, Hakeem tends to get Jordan treatment. Not overrated, but legend has grown since retirement. It happens. I expect KG to get the same treatment when he calls it quits.

I felt that way initially, but I think it's more likely he gets the David Robinson treatment. Pierce is by no means in even second-year Duncan's class, but they're both exceptional defensive bigs (who were also great rebounders) who relied a lot on a jump-shooting/finesse face up game. It's possible history will be kinder to Garnett but I think most people will remember Dirk as being better (for the record I'd take KG, but the same thing happened with Barkley/Malone and Robinson, and they didn't win championships).

[Mr Exlax]

What's the difference with him and Kobe? Kobe asserted himself in 02-03 and was the best player on LA at that time. He lost with Shaq in 03, lost again to a underdog team pistons,didn't make playoffs, and 2 first round exit. Magically in 08 he makes it to the finals. I wonder what changed between 05 to 08.:coleman:

Are you in my head man? :cheers:

[juju151111]

Are you in my head man? :cheers:
:cheers: ..............

[rhythmic]

What's the difference with him and Kobe? Kobe asserted himself in 02-03 and was the best player on LA at that time. He lost with Shaq in 03, lost again to a underdog team pistons,didn't make playoffs, and 2 first round exit. Magically in 08 he makes it to the finals. I wonder what changed between 05 to 08.:coleman:

Ah, in 2004 as you recall he was going to trial in between games. That definitely affected his mindset. Especially considering he had his best year of his career in 2003. He had a disappointing season in 04', no doubt.

In 2005, LA had a winning record and were in the playoff picture until both Kobe & Odom got injured in the 2nd half. Rudy T left due to an illness and we were playing without our two best players and without a coach. Our record was 12-27 without Rudy T I believe.

In 06' & 07', Kobe almost led his pathetic team past a very good Phoenix squad. He hit a game-winner, dropped 50, had that huge poster on Nash that completely shifted momentum for the entire series.

Kobe lost twice in the 1st round, not 9 times though and one of those times he almost won it for his squad. Then the next season LA acquires Pau Gasol; a guy who hasn't won a single playoff game as a leader, and Kobe takes his team to 3 straight final appearances.

Of course you need talent to go deep in the playoffs, but Kobe almost made it past the first round in his 1st try with inferior talent then what Hakeem had to work with.

[juju151111]

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[Mr Exlax]

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[SilkkTheShocker]

I felt that way initially, but I think it's more likely he gets the David Robinson treatment. Pierce is by no means in even second-year Duncan's class, but they're both exceptional defensive bigs (who were also great rebounders) who relied a lot on a jump-shooting/finesse face up game. It's possible history will be kinder to Garnett but I think most people will remember Dirk as being better (for the record I'd take KG, but the same thing happened with Barkley/Malone and Robinson, and they didn't win championships).

Dirk's legend is only going to skyrocket. That 2011 playoffs basically got him a get of jail free for his career. How many times does anyone bring up the 06 Finals or 07 playoff losses? You're going to only hear good things about him as the years go by.

As for KG/D-Rob, the thing is, I don't think D-Rob's career ever totally got over losing to Hakeem in the fashion he did. Its not fair at all, but that seems to be the case with him. He also has kind of a rep of being soft. With KG, the whole defense/intensity is going to carry him a long way. People will start talking about how he was the ultimate leader, best defender since Russell, etc. Im obviously not a KG fan at all. I don't even try to hide it. Does that mean he isn't a top 3-4 PF? Of course not. But I cringe at the thought of KG>>>>Duncan threads. I really, really do.

[juju151111]

Dirk's legend is only going to skyrocket. That 2011 playoffs basically got him a get of jail free for his career. How many times does anyone bring up the 06 Finals or 07 playoff losses? You're going to only hear good things about him as the years go by.

As for KG/D-Rob, the thing is, I don't think D-Rob's career ever totally got over losing to Hakeem in the fashion he did. Its not fair at all, but that seems to be the case with him. He also has kind of a rep of being soft. With KG, the whole defense/intensity is going to carry him a long way. People will start talking about how he was the ultimate leader, best defender since Russell, etc. Im obviously not a KG fan at all. I don't even try to hide it. Does that mean he isn't a top 3-4 PF? Of course not. But I cringe at the thought of KG>>>>Duncan threads. I really, really do.
Dirk is a good playoffs performer for most of his career give or take a year or two.

[rhythmic]

Do you happen to remember the teams that Hakeem and the Rockets were losing to? Do you think Kobe would lose to those same teams before they got him Gasol?

If I had more time, I'd honestly post each of those 9 1st round loses with my summary and his statistical impact. I do recall in some of those instances he underperformed signficantly.

I don't recall Kobe playing poorly at all, in either 2006 or 2007 against the Suns. His team just stunk. Hakeem actually underperformed in some of those instances.

[fpliii]

Dirk's legend is only going to skyrocket. That 2011 playoffs basically got him a get of jail free for his career. How many times does anyone bring up the 06 Finals or 07 playoff losses? You're going to only hear good things about him as the years go by.

As for KG/D-Rob, the thing is, I don't think D-Rob's career ever totally got over losing to Hakeem in the fashion he did. Its not fair at all, but that seems to be the case with him. He also has kind of a rep of being soft. With KG, the whole defense/intensity is going to carry him a long way. People will start talking about how he was the ultimate leader, best defender since Russell, etc. Im obviously not a KG fan at all. I don't even try to hide it. Does that mean he isn't a top 3-4 PF? Of course not. But I cringe at the thought of KG>>>>Duncan threads. I really, really do.

Good points. Do you think he ended Ewing's career as well? Or did the fact that Starks was complete shit in G7 take the blame off of him?

[rhythmic]

Hakeem was also swept 5 times in the 1st round I believe.
Heck I remember his pathetic performance in 1989 playoffs. :facepalm

[juju151111]

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[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk is a good playoffs performer for most of his career give or take a year or two.

I wasn't arguing otherwise. I have always been a big fan of Dirk's game. But his legend is going to take off. And I have no problem with that. It's the Grant Hill/Penny Hardaway legends that get annoying. I swear some people would take prime Hill over Larry Bird :facepalm

[rhythmic]

17.5 ppg .443 FG 11.5 RPG 2.0 APG 2.5 SPG 5.8 BPG 2.8 TO 4.8 FPG
19.8 ppg .394 FG 10.8 RPG 2.4 APG 1.0 SPG 3.2 BPG 2.6 TO 3.6 FPG

Got swept in 89-90 & lost in 5 I believe in 97'.
If Kobe put up 17.5 PPG on .443 in a sweep you'd have a field day with him.

[Mr Exlax]

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[rhythmic]

Did he play bad for any of those series or was it just a few games here and there in them? Also, I'd like to know who he lost to and the team he had in those sweeps. We can skip the other ones. I'm trying to grasp what you're saying. Hakeem wasn't good enough to lead a shitty team to a playoff victory over a better team?

He played like horse shit in 1989-90 & 1997-98 bro.
He had some EPIC moments too though, even in sweeps.

87-88' he lost in 4 games but had one of the greatest performances I've ever seen in a single series.

Still 9 losses, is 9 losses...

[juju151111]

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[rhythmic]

He was injured that year with a bloodcloth in his knee or something like that. The only reason he made it back was new medical technology. Hakeem was done by 97 I give u that one through.

He was injured in 89-90?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Good points. Do you think he ended Ewing's career as well? Or did the fact that Starks was complete shit in G7 take the blame off of him?

Hard to say. 94 was definitely the Knicks best shot. I think Ewing is underrated though. His teams weren't all that. They could defend and rebound, but their offense was ugly and a lot of their players didn't have the best IQs. He tends to get the blame, but im not buying it. While he wasn't as talented as D-Rob, I would still take Ewing over him for his toughness. I mean old, broken down Ewing put the team on his back in game 5 to beat prime Zo in and the Heat in 99 playoffs.

[Mr Exlax]

He was injured that year with a bloodcloth in his knee or something like that. The only reason he made it back was new medical technology. Hakeem was done by 97 I give u that one through.

Ahhh that's right. Forgot about that.

[rhythmic]

In 89-90' Hakeem played all 82 games and lost in 4 games. :oldlol:
What bloodcloth are you guys talking about?

[SilkkTheShocker]

He was injured that year with a bloodcloth in his knee or something like that. The only reason he made it back was new medical technology. Hakeem was done by 97 I give u that one through.

I wouldn't say he was washed up after 97. But his scoring took a huge dip. Like from 23ppg to 16ppg, I think. I would have to check though.

[Mr Exlax]

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[Mr Exlax]

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[fpliii]

Hard to say. 94 was definitely the Knicks best shot. I think Ewing is underrated though. His teams weren't all that. They could defend and rebound, but their offense was ugly and a lot of their players didn't have the best IQs. He tends to get the blame, but im not buying it. While he wasn't as talented as D-Rob, I would still take Ewing over him for his toughness. I mean old, broken down Ewing put the team on his back in game 5 to beat prime Zo in and the Heat in 99 playoffs.

I think part of the problem with Ewing is he was miscast as a primary scoring option. If Bernard King comes back and performs at a decent level, and they resign him in free agency, Ewing gets to focus more on rebounding/defense (which is what he was hailed for in college). King was 30 going on 31 with knee problems so I guess they didn't want to deal with that whole mess, but Knicks office should've tried harder to acquire a different scorer.

[rhythmic]

Oh my bad i thought you were talking about the stuff towards the end of his career. Those numbers you posted were from the 89-90 playoffs?

Top one was 89-90' and the bottom one was 97-98'.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I think part of the problem with Ewing is he was miscast as a primary scoring option. If Bernard King comes back and performs at a decent level, and they resign him in free agency, Ewing gets to focus more on rebounding/defense (which is what he was hailed for in college). King was 30 going on 31 with knee problems so I guess they didn't want to deal with that whole mess, but Knicks office should've tried harder to acquire a different scorer.

Agreed. Ewing was better off as #2 scoring option. Pretty amazing he was the scorer he was considering how he played at Georgetown.

[rhythmic]

I'm not asking about the 9 losses though my man. I mean, you said he lost in 4 games in the 87-88 season, but had one of the greatest performances you've ever seen in a single series. Was it his fault that they still lost then? Does his lack of team success make not one of the 10 best players in NBA history? That would mean Dirk is better than Malone and Barkely right? Team accomplishments vs players stats. The stats give me something I can analyze. I know it has to be looked at in context and all but you have to look at my POV in context as well kinda thing.

No.
I am comparing Hakeem to 10 of the greatest players of All-Time, not to Barkley & Malone (who Hakeem is better then).

Your example doesn't make sense to me because the players Hakeem is going up against all have very stellar (complete) resumes. They have it all, basically. Besides Wilt, who isn't as high in terms of winning and team accomplishments but his individual dominance more then makes up for it (similar to Hakeem). However, I don't think many people will say Hakeem had a bigger impact on the game then Wilt did, so that point is kind of irrelevent.

Russell (defensive impact, winning, leadership, team accomplishments)
Magic (winning, accolades, leadership, impact)
Kobe (winning, accolades, impact)
Jordan, Wilt, Duncan, Shaquille, LeBron, Bird & Kareem.

I think they just have better overall resumes bro.

[juju151111]

In 1990, Hakeem began the season a bit limited physically as he had not played any basketball in the summer and missed pre-season due to a blood clot in his leg. If you watch the games from this season, he wore a padding on one of his calves if I'm not mistaken. There are some roster additions as they pick up Larry Smith, John Lucas (the same Lucas that was suspended for drug abuse on the 1986 squad) and Vernon Maxwell late in the season who wasn't a proven commodity as he was a bit of a headcase.

I'll link a couple of articles from this season that talk about Hakeem's game and briefly summarize them as well in case you don't want to go through the game.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989 ... ck-johnson

This link above is an article early from the 1989-90 season and primarily highlights the fact that Houston was still a 1 man team and that guys had to step up and give Hakeem more help.

Asked if the Rockets are basically a one-man team, Lucas said, ``Yes. We`re hiding from being a one-man team right now. The preseason gave us confidence, but it doesn`t mean things have changed. Olajuwon has to do as much as Michael Jordan has to do for Chicago, but in a different way.``

Eddie Johnson also talked about how Hakeem was trying to do too much as he'd try to make one play right after another which perhaps is a sign of not trusting his teammates although at the same time, you could argue it was justified due to a lack of support. He also talks about playing on a mediocre or bad ball club will naturally have a negative impact on the player's image which is certainly true.[QUOTE=rhythmic

[fpliii]

BTW does anyone else have thoughts on the hypotheticals in the OP? What would Hakeem have had to done differently to win it all that season, assuming he gets nothing else from his teammates that he hadn't through the West Semis?

[juju151111]

Btw Hakeem Late 80s team were mostly top 5 in defense and Hakeem was the only good defender on the freaking team.

[juju151111]

BTW does anyone else have thoughts on the hypotheticals in the OP? What would Hakeem have had to done differently to win it all that season, assuming he gets nothing else from his teammates that he hadn't through the West Semis?
Shoot over those triple teams maybe? What else could he have done. He was putting up stupid statlines and series was decided by some bs call. He was triple teamed and made the right plays.

[millwad]

I don't think he can beat Jordan with just Kenny Smith, V. Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry & Carl. He'd simply need better teammates.

They took Seattle to game 7 and lost by 3 in overtime.
Hakeem was brilliant in the early to mid 90's, there's nothing more he needed to do. He was an MVP cnadidate and a DPOTY candidate every year, he was doing everything for that team.

He led his team in points, rebounds, blocks, steals and was 3rd in assists as a center. Guy was more to that team then LeBron was to Cleveland, IMO.

I guess you didn't know but Olajuwon is the only superstar who played against prime Jordan while having a winning record against him as well.

So your logic completely fails, he was in fact beating Jordan with Smith, Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry and Herrera and Jordan himself has said that he was lucky that he didn't have to face Olajuwon and the Rockets in the playoffs.

Jordan and Hakeem faced each other 23 times and Hakeem holds a 13 to 10 edge against him.

[juju151111]

I guess you didn't know but Olajuwon is the only superstar who played against prime Jordan while having a winning record against him as well.

So your logic completely fails, he was in fact beating Jordan with Smith, Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry and Herrera and Jordan himself has said that he was lucky that he didn't have to face Olajuwon and the Rockets in the playoffs.

Jordan and Hakeem faced each other 23 times and Hakeem holds a 13 to 10 edge against him.
That's regular season.

[fpliii]

Shoot over those triple teams maybe? What else could he have done. He was putting up stupid statlines and series was decided by some bs call. He was triple teamed and made the right plays.

Thanks for the response.


I guess you didn't know but Olajuwon is the only superstar who played against prime Jordan while having a winning record against him as well.

So your logic completely fails, he was in fact beating Jordan with Smith, Maxwell, Thorpe, Horry and Herrera and Jordan himself has said that he was lucky that he didn't have to face Olajuwon and the Rockets in the playoffs.

Jordan and Hakeem faced each other 23 times and Hakeem holds a 13 to 10 edge against him.

millwad - What're your thoughts on the hypothetical in the OP? Do you think if he gets more touches in G7 and plays at his 95 playoffs level in the WCF/Finals they win? Or do they fall short even with more monster performances?

[millwad]

That's regular season.

So?

Olajuwon played better in the playoffs compared to the regular season through out his career.

Olajuwon has the highest scoring average per game in the playoffs in NBA thistory among centers.

[juju151111]

So?

Olajuwon played better in the playoffs compared to the regular season through out his career.

Olajuwon has the highest scoring average per game in the playoffs in NBA thistory among centers.
What's your point? That's regular season.

[millwad]

Thanks for the response.



millwad - What're your thoughts on the hypothetical in the OP? Do you think if he gets more touches in G7 and plays at his 95 playoffs level in the WCF/Finals they win? Or do they fall short even with more monster performances?

It's a really hard one to be honest.

The game 7 against the Sonics is a joke, anyone, no matter if they're a Rocket or Olajuwon fan would admit that the Rockets got robbed. I don't know if the highlights have been posted from that game 7 but anyone can check the horrible refs here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

If they would have beaten the Sonics I do think the WCF would fit the Rockets more. KJ really wasn't himself and he missed more than 30 games in the regular season in '93 and he was always the one who was beasting on the Rockets. The Rockets would have had a really good shot against the Suns.

If they would have beaten the Suns I think the Rockets would have the best chance in the West to beat the Bulls given the fact that they never match-up all that good against the Rockets and that Houston's best player was Olajuwon and he was no guard that Jordan or Pippen could take care of.

I've never been a huge fan of talking about "if's" but I'll tell you this, the Rockets would have had the best shot in beating the Bulls that year.

[millwad]

What's your point? That's regular season.

My point is that the Bulls never matched-up well against Olajuwon and the Rockets, they just didn't and even Houston even beat them during the years they were crappy.

And when you mention that it's regular season only, I told you that Olajuwon raised his game in the playoffs which he did and he had the highest scoring average in NBA history in the playoffs among centers.

[juju151111]

My point is that the Bulls never matched-up well against Olajuwon and the Rockets, they just didn't and even Houston even beat them during the years they were crappy.

And when you mention that it's regular season only, I told you that Olajuwon raised his game in the playoffs which he did and he had the highest scoring average in NBA history in the playoffs among centers.
I never said Hakeem wasn't going to rise his game. My point is that's regular season. Means noting. Bulls were beating Miami in regular seasons too. Playoffs is different.

[fpliii]

It's a really hard one to be honest.

The game 7 against the Sonics is a joke, anyone, no matter if they're a Rocket or Olajuwon fan would admit that the Rockets got robbed. I don't know if the highlights have been posted from that game 7 but anyone can check the horrible refs here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

If they would have beaten the Sonics I do think the WCF would fit the Rockets more. KJ really wasn't himself and he missed more than 30 games in the regular season in '93 and he was always the one who was beasting on the Rockets. The Rockets would have had a really good shot against the Suns.

If they would have beaten the Suns I think the Rockets would have the best chance in the West to beat the Bulls given the fact that they never match-up all that good against the Rockets and that Houston's best player was Olajuwon and he was no guard that Jordan or Pippen could take care of.

I've never been a huge fan of talking about "if's" but I'll tell you this, the Rockets would have had the best shot in beating the Bulls that year.

Thanks for your response. Good points about strange officiating in G7 and their matchups.

[Bigsmoke]

Okay, so we should not include winning & personal achievements then?
Why isn't Oscar on anyone's top 10 list then? Wilt is on the list because his individual impact is legendary, moreso then Hakeem. People love to fantasize about his inflated numbers.

Heck, I probably respect Hakeem more then Wilt when it comes to winning anyways. I understand that Hakeem had bad teammates throughout his career, but in retrospect shall I give him someone else's spot because of it?

He still lost 9 times, that's A LOT. That definitely influences my ranking. I mean, if you're a legend... a top 10 player of all-time, I'd think you can at least upset a team ONCE in nine ****ing tries.


i hope u are not stupid enough to count 2002 just to throw more dirk on his legacy?

he was 40 years old playing like 15 minutes a night.

[La Frescobaldi]

I wasn't arguing otherwise. I have always been a big fan of Dirk's game. But his legend is going to take off. And I have no problem with that. It's the Grant Hill/Penny Hardaway legends that get annoying. I swear some people would take prime Hill over Larry Bird :facepalm

http://geekwhisperin.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/screen-shot-2010-12-10-at-1-24-47-am.png

[fpliii]

bump

[Mr Exlax]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[jzek]

Would have been my GOAT center if not for the fact that he lost in the first round 8x! :wtf:

[fpliii]

:rockon:

[dankok8]

1) I have no idea. Kemp was pretty much his cryptonite he never played well against the Sonics. Maybe trying to play more down low ala young Hakeem as opposed to mid-range and getting Shawn in foul trouble would work better?

2) The Suns although more talented were beatable. KJ was struggling after his injury and Ceballos was out. Considering how the Suns choked in '94 and '95 the Rockets would have a chance for sure.

3) Hakeem in '93 and '94 didn't have a good enough team to beat Jordan's Bulls. Pippen and Grant were better than any of his teammates even Otis Thorpe. However, Olajuwon himself would feast on the Bulls' front line.

4) He would be looked at a bit better for sure. Now I have him either #7 or #8 all-time which is a bit high to many people. I value his postseason runs immensely because of the extreme degree of difficulty. With a 3rd title and over Jordan's Bulls no less, Hakeem would be a lock for top 8 IMO over Duncan and Kobe.

[Odinn]

:rockon:
If you remember, we had a discussion once about 1992-93 season being the best of Hakeem's. After that I watched of him games in that season. And from what I've seen;

It was the 2nd season of Hakeem under Rudy T's coaching and I find Hakeem was like LeBron at center. He was truly ball dominant for a center and his apg numbers went up because of this. It was the season Hakeem's offensive role got bigger.

He was a combo of pre-RudyT Hakeem and chips-winning Hakeem. He was more concentrated on his rebounding and defense compared to his title seasons with lesser scoring and being ball-dominant.

In 1993-94 season he excelled his offensive role. If you can watch enough of 1992-93 and 1993-94 seasons, you will get the feeling. The numbers wouldn't tell this much of the story.


My overall ranking of Hakeem's seasons;
1. 1993-94 (and I do not have any doubts about it now)
2. 1992-93
3. 1993-95

Yes, I'd rank 1992-93 over 1994-95. Because as for scoring, 1994-95 was Hakeem's best. But just as for scoring. The other facets truly weren't the same.

[ninephive]

I never said Jordan had a ton of career lows. But its almost sacrilegious to say anything that isn't praising either guy. I don't really see how Hakeem deserves that distinction.
It's true, you can say what you want, but of Jordan's full 13 seasons, he couldn't get his team to a .500 record in FOUR of them.

For comparison sake, a guy like Duncan has played 16 full seasons without having ONE SEASON less than 0.600...and counting.

I'm not saying it was all Jordan's fault, I'm just saying that here's a guy that didn't exactly have the most consistent career, especially in terms of longevity with the 2 retirements.

And when you think of Duncan, you can look at the fact that he's potentially a Ginobili mistake away from 3 more (Fisher's 0.4 shot over him, bad foul on Dirk, worst game of his career in Finals Game 6). That's not to say that Ginobili hasn't helped him win others, just that Duncan has been close to several more...and still has time to win more.

[fpliii]

If you remember, we had a discussion once about 1992-93 season being the best of Hakeem's. After that I watched of him games in that season. And from what I've seen;

It was the 2nd season of Hakeem under Rudy T's coaching and I find Hakeem was like LeBron at center. He was truly ball dominant for a center and his apg numbers went up because of this. It was the season Hakeem's offensive role got bigger.

He was a combo of pre-RudyT Hakeem and chips-winning Hakeem. He was more concentrated on his rebounding and defense compared to his title seasons with lesser scoring and being ball-dominant.

In 1993-94 season he excelled his offensive role. If you can watch enough of 1992-93 and 1993-94 seasons, you will get the feeling. The numbers wouldn't tell this much of the story.


My overall ranking of Hakeem's seasons;
1. 1993-94 (and I do not have any doubts about it now)
2. 1992-93
3. 1993-95

Yes, I'd rank 1992-93 over 1994-95. Because as for scoring, 1994-95 was Hakeem's best. But just as for scoring. The other facets truly weren't the same.

Thanks for your response. I'm definitely looking to watch more tape of 92-93 Hakeem, I've seen his games in the playoffs but not much of him in the regular season. I'll try to download or trade for some.

How would you compare him defensively in the three seasons?

[Odinn]

Thanks for your response. I'm definitely looking to watch more tape of 92-93 Hakeem, I've seen his games in the playoffs but not much of him in the regular season. I'll try to download or trade for some.

How would you compare him defensively in the three seasons?
1994-95 is the worst, defensively.

In 1993-94 season, he was as good as 1992-93. But not that consistent, IMO. I mean, in 1992-93 season, he played like a goat level defender all season long. In 1993-94 season, it was like 80-85 percent compared to the previous one. But his offensive play and scoring much much more consistent in 1993-94. He shifted his focus from defense to offense a little bit, but his offense gained more than defense lost.

1. 1992-93 season
2. 1993-94 season (due to consistency)
3. 1994-95 season (straight up, he wasn't just as good or consistent)

Although I'd like to add, Hakeem gambled less to block or steal the ball in 1993-94 season and after that.

---

But what it really bothers me, although he was like guard in a 7-footer's body, Hakeem was truly ball-dominant in his peak. Other than Hakeem, all other all-time great big men didn't need to be ball-dominant to be that good. That's a minus for Hakeem in my opinion.

[fpliii]

1994-95 is the worst, defensively.

In 1993-94 season, he was as good as 1992-93. But not that consistent, IMO. I mean, in 1992-93 season, he played like a goat level defender all season long. In 1993-94 season, it was like 80-85 percent compared to the previous one. But his offensive play and scoring much much more consistent in 1993-94. He shifted his focus from defense to offense a little bit, but his offense gained more than defense lost.

1. 1992-93 season
2. 1993-94 season (due to consistency)
3. 1994-95 season (straight up, he wasn't just as good or consistent)

---

But what it really bothers me, although he was like guard in a 7-footer's body, Hakeem was truly ball-dominant in his peak. Other than Hakeem, all other all-time great big men didn't need to be ball-dominant to be that good. That's a minus for Hakeem in my opinion.

Valid point. I do think that's something to consider when evaluating some of his better seasons.

One thing I've always liked about Hakeem, which has a lot to do with his guard-like skills, is his ability to post up without an entry pass (he also was adept at leaving the post). Most bigs will need to set up and be fed in the post, but that wasn't the case with him. This holds for other all-time great bigs too obviously, but not at the same frequency (or with the same level of success).

[Odinn]

Valid point. I do think that's something to consider when evaluating some of his better seasons.

One thing I've always liked about Hakeem, which has a lot to do with his guard-like skills, is his ability to post up without an entry pass (he also was adept at leaving the post). Most bigs will need to set up and be fed in the post, but that wasn't the case with him. This holds for other all-time great bigs too obviously, but not at the same frequency (or with the same level of success).
Yeah. It's about your choice as how you'd like to see it. His guard-like skills were truly great. Hakeem was a freak.
KAJ was tall and strong. Shaq and Wilt were among the strongest ones. Russell was one of the most athletic centers ever. All of the goat centers were physically exceptional. That's why I do not like Hakeem being a ball-dominant center. Otherwise, why shouldn't I give the balll as many times as I could to a guard that is a 7-footer.

[CavaliersFTW]

He honestly has become to MOST overrated player in history.
Yes he had a great skill-set but my god the way some of you refer to this player is absurd. He lost 9 times in the 1st round...

Let that sink in for a moment.
He had some epic seasons no doubt, 94 & 95 he was a monster.
But then again a healthy Bill Walton was a monster too, arguably a top 5 peak of All-Time (to me anyways). But injuries ruined his chances of cementing a potentially top 10 resume.

Hakeem is a borderline top 10 player, but as far as his overall resume is concerned and his consistency (and more importantly, him being a winner). He perhaps has become the most overrated of them all!
I don't know where Hakeem ranks all-time but I know he's hyped a lot because his Youtube 'scoring skills' video. Hakeem had aesthetically pleasing guard-like skills which he NEEDED to be an effective offensive big-man because he was a 6-9 class center not a 7 footer - and basic basketball fundamentals dictate that you face up opponents larger than you and post up players smaller. Many of the centers guarding him were bigger so he needed a better developed face-up game than say, Kareem, Wilt, or Shaq. But Kareem, Wilt, and Shaq were BETTER offensive players than he was, they didn't face-up because they did what they were supposed to do when facing guys smaller than them, and that is play with your back to them. Might not look as pretty, but those guys were better offensive players, period.

Not to mention Hakeem was slow to even develop those moves - watching 1980's games of him and college games, he was not nearly as polished offensively as his YT highlights showcase. He was always good defensively, but early on Sampson was getting more praise than him. He was raw and took a good deal of time to really learn the in's and out's of the NBA-level game which is unlike the other greats, even Bill Russell commented on this in some early 90's games where he did some mic work, mentioning how Hakeem had only just learned how to start passing to create plays rather than just to get rid of the ball. Where as Wilt, Shaq, Russell and Kareem were literally dominant players who understood the game at a high level in the NBA virtually from day 1.

[Y2ktors]

[QUOTE=rhythmic

[Y2ktors]

1994-95 is the worst, defensively.

In 1993-94 season, he was as good as 1992-93. But not that consistent, IMO. I mean, in 1992-93 season, he played like a goat level defender all season long. In 1993-94 season, it was like 80-85 percent compared to the previous one. But his offensive play and scoring much much more consistent in 1993-94. He shifted his focus from defense to offense a little bit, but his offense gained more than defense lost.

1. 1992-93 season
2. 1993-94 season (due to consistency)
3. 1994-95 season (straight up, he wasn't just as good or consistent)

Although I'd like to add, Hakeem gambled less to block or steal the ball in 1993-94 season and after that.

---

But what it really bothers me, although he was like guard in a 7-footer's body, Hakeem was truly ball-dominant in his peak. Other than Hakeem, all other all-time great big men didn't need to be ball-dominant to be that good. That's a minus for Hakeem in my opinion.

His ball dominance led them to two titles. How can this be a negative, especially when his best playmaker was a young Sam Cassell?

[Sarcastic]

How many of those 9 first round losses were with HCA though?


Do you defend Carmelo Anthony with that reasoning when it's brought up that he lost in the first round a bunch of times?

Also the 1980's, and 1990's WC was much much weaker, than the 2000's WC that Carmelo played in.

[Y2ktors]

Do you defend Carmelo Anthony with that reasoning when it's brought up that he lost in the first round a bunch of times?

Also the 1980's, and 1990's WC was much much weaker, than the 2000's WC that Carmelo played in.

Yes I do. Hakeem was a two way player unlike Carmelo, which doesn't help his case.