Explain to me why Rose didn't deserve the 2011 MVP

[Heavincent]

Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.

[Unbiased_one]

Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.

That was dwight's mvp...

[aj1987]

Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.
Dwight Howard. 23/14/3 on 60%. Was also the DPOY.

Lebron averaged 27 (+2) / 8 / 7 (+3) on 51% (+7%), while being on the 3rd best team in the league.

[Miss Bella]

All the mentions and you miss the only one who had a case against Rose.

[Suguru101]

It's not that he didn't deserve it, because his case was pretty good for the MVP...

It's that he wasn't even a top 3 player that year, but he won the MVP because of narrative and his team's record.

The top 7 players in the NBA in 2011:

LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Derrick Rose/Kevin Durant

[KyrieTheFuture]

Because Dwight Howard existed that year and I noticed you conveniently left him out of the OP

[Heavincent]

lol you're not winning the MVP as the 4 seed in the East.

[Kblaze8855]

They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.

It really wasnt close. He got 113 first place votes to the rest of the leagues....8. I think Lebron got 4, Dwight 3, and Kobe 1.

They have won on a 64 win pace with him since 09/10. Without him its I wanna say 45.

But still...its everything but him. Even if they go 33-7 with him in 2012 and turn to the Hawks without him.

That winning cant be traced back to the guy who...the moment he isnt playing...the team with the leagues best record is merely...ok.

[poido123]

It's not that he didn't deserve it, because his case was pretty good for the MVP...

It's that he wasn't even a top 3 player that year, but he won the MVP because of narrative and his team's record.

The top 7 players in the NBA in 2011:

LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Dirk Nowitzki
Derrick Rose/Kevin Durant


Since 1982-83, every player who has won the award has had a .610 winning percentage team or better, except for the two lockout shortened seasons. Which means, that the award is heavily in favour of a player who leads a team with a great wins column.

Whether you believe Rose to be the best player that year or not, this one determining factor is the reason why the best player on a team with a great wins record has won the MVP.

[noob cake]

Rose won the MVP because there was a media wave that portrayed him as an all time great.

He wasn't even top 3 that year in terms of play.

[DaSeba5]

He won it because he was a new young star in the league and he had the best record in the NBA. It was easy for the media to fall in love with him.

[poido123]

He won it because he was a new young star in the league and he had the best record in the NBA. It was easy for the media to fall in love with him.

I expected something a bit more mature than that.

There was a season in which Lebron had won MVP with the Cavs and I was convinced Chris Paul deserved it, but it came down to the wins column of the team. Same goes for Rose, the last 30 years, it has nearly always gone to the player with a superior team record.

[Suguru101]

Since 1982-83, every player who has won the award has had a .610 winning percentage team or better, except for the two lockout shortened seasons. Which means, that the award is heavily in favour of a player who leads a team with a great wins column.

Whether you believe Rose to be the best player that year or not, this one determining factor is the reason why the best player on a team with a great wins record has won the MVP.

Dwight's team winning percentage: .634
Kobe's team winning percentage: .695
Durant's team winning percentage: .671
Dirk's team winning percentage: .695

All better than Rose in 2011.

He won because of narrative, because he wasn't a top 3 player in 2011.

[poido123]

Dwight's team winning percentage: .634
Kobe's team winning percentage: .695
Durant's team winning percentage: .671
Dirk's team winning percentage: .695

All better than Rose in 2011.

He won because of narrative, because he wasn't a top 3 player in 2011.

It doesn't mean Rose doesn't deserve it or meet the criteria for an MVP, Rose had a team percentage over .610 which is what every MVP has had since 83'.

It is arguable that Rose was the best player, what you believe to be different is not FACT.

[Suguru101]

I expected something a bit more mature than that.

There was a season in which Lebron had won MVP with the Cavs and I was convinced Chris Paul deserved it, but it came down to the wins column of the team. Same goes for Rose, the last 20 years, it has nearly always gone to the player with a superior team record.

No, it didn't. It came down to LeBron being a better overall player than Chris Paul, which ever year it was.

You can make all the wins and record arguments that you want, the thing is that the MVP should go to the best player in the league if he isn't in a losing team.

That's the reason nobody respects Charles Barkley's 1993 MVP. His team had 5 more wins than the Bulls, but everybody knows that Jordan was the best player in the league and that he should have won it.

LeBron, Dwight, Kobe, Wade and Nowitzki were all better players than Rose in 2011, yet he won because of his record.

That's why he shouldn't have won.

[Akhenaten]

MVP is the player with the best stats on the team with the best record award.

that's been the criteria

What's weird about that season is how many people advocate for Lebron being MVP but Wade is never mentioned. 26/5/7 50% shooting, was every bit as good as Lebron that season.

[funnystuff]

Dwight, Lebron and Kobe were more deserving of it than Rose.

[KyleKong]

It really wasnt close. He got 113 first place votes to the rest of the leagues....8. I think Lebron got 4, Dwight 3, and Kobe 1.

They have won on a 64 win pace with him since 09/10. Without him its I wanna say 45.

But still...its everything but him. Even if they go 33-7 with him in 2012 and turn to the Hawks without him.

That winning cant be traced back to the guy who...the moment he isnt playing...the team with the leagues best record is merely...ok.

Dwight Howard only had three votes? That is the biggest robbery since The Town.

[poido123]

No, it didn't. It came down to LeBron being a better overall player than Chris Paul, which ever year it was.

You can make all the wins and record arguments that you want, the thing is that the MVP should go to the best player in the league if he isn't in a losing team.

That's the reason nobody respects Charles Barkley's 1993 MVP. His team had 5 more wins than the Bulls, but everybody knows that Jordan was the best player in the league and that he shoupd have won it.

LeBron, Dwight, Kobe, Wade and Nowitzki were all better players than Rose in 2011, yet he won because of his record.

That's why he shouldn't have won.


Your opinion. You are not arguing facts.

My opinion is that Chris Paul had a remarkeable season that was better than Lebron's that year. The fact is, Lebron was voted MVP and deserved it based on the criteria of an MVP.

The FACT is since 1982-83, every player who has been voted MVP except for the lockout shortened seasons has had a team win percentage above .610.

You can pump all the names out you want, but the fact is Rose did deserve MVP based on criteria and that' why he won it.

[Suguru101]

It doesn't mean Rose doesn't deserve it or meet the criteria for an MVP, Rose had a team percentage over .610 which is what every MVP has had since 83'.

It is arguable that Rose was the best player, what you believe to be different is not FACT.

It isn't arguable that Rose was the best player in the league. He had the best team, his narrative was the most atractive, and he was fun to root for in light of the Miami situation.

Rose wasn't even arguably better than LeBron, Dwight or Kobe in 2011. Wade you could argue, but Wade was a much better defender. Dirk was just a better player.

[Kblaze8855]

Narrative is leading a team to 62 wins while its frontcourt starters miss 70 games......

Rose won the MVp the reason most people win it.

Win a shitload of games, be the teams obvious key player, and have other people falter at the wrong time or be worse with similar or more help.

Lebron with Wade and Bosh wins less than Rose with Deng and half a season from his frontcourt....Lebron isnt winning MVP. All anyone had was "Well the defense is the reason" and then Rose leads them to a 68 win pace in 2012 while he plays and that year and 2013 combined...they are pretty much a 5-6 seed.

64 win pace with Rose even killed by other injuries.

They are a notch up from the Bucks without him.

Thats roughly MVP impact and always has been.

Lebron had a letdown regular season and won less than he did with half the help in Cleveland and everyone with a good enough record but Kobe had stars taking credit. And Kobe had a down year. Dirk wasnt winning doing 23/7 as a power forward. He put up 22/6/ and 20/5 back to back months. He had a hot start then I believe got hurt and didnt look Dirklike for a while.

Just all fell into place.

[Electric Slide]

Because he wasn't the best player in the league, not close to it, and he wasn't the most valuable player on the team.

Take away Dwight and the Magic wouldn't have been as good, probably miss playoffs.

As evident by the Bulls last season, the Bulls are still a playoff team, even a 2nd round team without Rose.

Thibs was the MVP of the team.

[Suguru101]

Your opinion. You are not arguing facts.

My opinion is that Chris Paul had a remarkeable season that was better than Lebron's that year. The fact is, Lebron was voted MVP and deserved it based on the criteria of an MVP.

The FACT is, every player who has been voted MVP except for the lockout shortened seasons has had a team win percentage above .610.

You can pump all the names out you want, but the fact is Rose did deserve MVP based on criteria and that' why he won it.

Alright, that's your opinion, i'll respect it. It's just that in my opinion, the best player in the league should win it, as long as he was on a winning team.

That's why i think Nash shouldn't have won MVPs, Barkley shouldn't have won MVPs, Malone in 1997 shouldn't have won over Jordan, and Rose shouldn't have won over LeBron and Dwight in 2011.

Let's agree to disagree. :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

That's the reason nobody respects Charles Barkley's 1993 MVP. His team had 5 more wins than the Bulls, but everybody knows that Jordan was the best player in the league and that he shoupd have won it.

Funny. I remember 1993.

Barkley deserving MVP really wasnt even that argued.

Jordan didnt even come in second.

People were never that upset over that.

97 was the bad year. Second most wins ever...the best player...still doesnt get it.

93?

Jordan was the best player. He wasnt that strong an MVP choice. And people were hardly up in arms over it.

[DaSeba5]

I expected something a bit more mature than that.

There was a season in which Lebron had won MVP with the Cavs and I was convinced Chris Paul deserved it, but it came down to the wins column of the team. Same goes for Rose, the last 30 years, it has nearly always gone to the player with a superior team record.

I don't understand your first comment, but ok. The biggest reason why Rose won it is because he had the best record in the NBA.

Rose wasn't the best player in the NBA in 2011. The MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the league or LeBron would have won in 2011. I don't have a problem with Rose getting the MVP. He was a young new star, and the media credited him for leading his team to the best record in the NBA. He was not better than LeBron or Howard. The award goes to the most valuable player, and Rose clearly made big plays and helped win them many games with big shots and plays.

Now whether Howard was more valuable to the Magic than Rose was to the Bulls is a legitimate argument, but Rose deserved it.

[bdreason]

After Nash won back to back MVP's I stopped caring about the award completely.

[Suguru101]

Funny. I remember 1993.

Barkley deserving MVP really wasnt even that argued.

Jordan didnt even come in second.

People were never that upset over that.

97 was the bad year. Second most wins ever...the best player...still doesnt get it.

93?

Jordan was the best player. He wasnt that strong an MVP choice. And people were hardly up in arms over it.

Of course nobody complained as it was happening, because the narrative was unfolding. But when you look at it now, objectively and with perspective, most would agree that Jordan should have won.

Not that Barkley was undeserving, but that Jordan should have taken the trophy. Same in 2006, the narrative was:

"Nash makes everyone better, amazing teammate, unselfish, blah blah blah..."

But when anybody with good basketball knowledge looks at Nash's MVPs now, we know that Shaq should have won in 2005, and Kobe in 2006.

[poido123]

Alright, that's your opinion, i'll respect it. It's just that in my opinion, the best player in the league should win it, as long as he was on a winning team.

That's why i think Nash shouldn't have won MVPs, Barkley shouldn't have won MVPs, Malone in 1997 shouldn't have won over Jordan, and Rose shouldn't have won over LeBron and Dwight in 2011.

Let's agree to disagree. :cheers:

:cheers: Not worth getting a headache over.

I'm just pumped to see a new season of basketball, this offseason is killing me.

[Heavincent]

After Nash won back to back MVP's I stopped caring about the award completely.

I don't really care that much about the award either, but I just think it's funny how people on here think it was blasphemous that Rose won it.

[Kblaze8855]

Because he wasn't the best player in the league, not close to it, and he wasn't the most valuable player on the team.

Take away Dwight and the Magic wouldn't have been as good, probably miss playoffs.

As evident by the Bulls last season, the Bulls are still a playoff team, even a 2nd round team without Rose.

Thibs was the MVP of the team.


The 76ers won 57 without Wilt, Bulls 55 without Jordan, Celtics made the playoffs without Bird, and the Bucks won the exact same number of games without Kareem when he left for LA.

Problem with any of their MVPs?

The Bulls minus rose fell off by more than most teams would minus the MVP. The Heat sure as hell arent a 45 win team without Lebron.

Doesnt seem anyone cares.

[SCdac]

Never understood the supposed "controversy" over his award. He was definitely the best candidate. Clutch, consistent, playing at a high level (Bulls were a low scoring, slow team mind you). Only other argument I see is for Lebron, personally. What Rose did for a beat up Bulls team was MVP quality and he was huge in so many late game situations.

Dwight's team regressed from the previous two seasons, despite his individual improvement, and it's hard to think of him as an MVP that year (his scoring likely didn't stand out from the likes of Griffin, Dirk, and Amare). People were sometimes calling Tony Parker "MVP" this past season, yet Rose in 2011 carried much more of a load for a 62-win team. Rose played 800+ minutes than Parker, scored 600+ more points, dished 100+ more assists, took 200+ free throws, and knocked down 100+ threes.


"Once again, I think they have got the MVP of the league. That kid has come into his own. He has matured quite a bit. When he came into the league, everybody said he had speed, he could get to the rim, but he can't shoot. Now he can shoot—the three, as well as pull-up shots. He has very few flaws. I'm pretty sure the next thing they are going to say is that he doesn't play good defense, or he can't handle a double-team. Time will tell. The kid works hard and I think he's a great piece for this franchise to rebuild with."
-- Michael Jordan on Derrick Rose

"Chicago's Derrick Rose is clearly the MVP in my mind. I've had the opportunity to watch him play every night and I'm very high on the way he's developed as a leader. Now, his team is playing towards a 60-win season. He's been spectacular."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose

"Derrick has been tremendous down the stretch of games. What separates him from the other contenders for MVP is when you look at the Bulls' overall success. His winning attitude has become contagious. He's made great strides defensively, giving the same effort on that end of the floor as he does offensively. He gets better every night because he's so competitive. He stepped up on defense and his team has followed. That's the definition of leadership."
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose

"Derrick is playing extremely well. He's definitely probably the MVP of this league. This guy had 30 (points) and 17 (assists against Milwaukee on March 26). He can affect this game by scoring and also by his teammates. He is just going to get better, which is going to be a lot of fun to watch. I think he has all of the tools to be one of the best that played the game."
-- 10-time NBA All-Star Jason Kidd

"Derrick has been phenomenal this year. He continues to grow. He's not only a terrific athlete, but he has turned into a terrific basketball player and he's a great kid. He's a willing learner [and] teammate, and I have nothing but great things to say about him."
-- Two-time MVP (2005, 2006) and seven-time NBA All-Star Steve Nash

"He has stepped up and is now one of the best players in the league. I think he is a worthy MVP this year. But regardless, he's a terrific player and will have a sensational career."
-- Two-time MVP (2005, 2006) and seven-time NBA All-Star Steve Nash

"LeBron has won the last two [MVP awards]. He is my teammate, but Derrick has had a phenomenal season. Just looking at what he has done with the team and their record, how improved they are as a team and how much improved he is as a player. I think it's close, but I think I would give it to Derrick if I were a voter."
-- Miami Heat forward Chris Bosh

"He's playing well, like he's the best point guard in the league and the best player in the league. He's the most valuable player if you really think about it. If you take him out of the lineup, there is no telling what you get."
-- Miami Heat forward Chris Bosh

"Derrick is having a great year. I don't have a vote, but of course Derrick is one of the guys who is a front-runner. He's got to finish out this year strong. Of course, I believe LeBron is a front-runner as well. Those two guys are the leaders of the MVP run. I'm going to be biased and choose my teammate. There's no question about it."
-- Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade

"Like I always keep saying, with team success comes individual accolades. D-Rose is having an unbelievable season. He's doing everything and more to help this team be a contender. There is no way you can mention the MVP race without mentioning his name."
-- Miami Heat forward LeBron James

"I think the sky is the limit for him. You see now just with the improvement he's made off his jump shot from last year to this year how much his game has really gone to another level. I think he's just scratching the surface. He's realizing now what a jump shot can do. Hopefully, he'll continue to work on it and become a pure shooter."
-- Five-time NBA champion and 2008 NBA MVP Kobe Bryant

"Derrick Rose isn't so much a name as a sentence. As in: Derrick Rose in the NBA three years ago and hasn't stopped since. He's my MVP so far, not just for the way he's carried the limping Chicago Bulls the way Penn's carried Teller. And not just for the way he jumps like a frog bred with a kangaroo. And not just for the way he scores, defends and passes like every game is a one-day tryout."
-- 11-time National Sportswriter of the Year Rick Reilly, ESPN.com

"Hard working, good looking, no chest thumping, and modest demeanor; just a class act. All of that on top of his phenomenal play. He has taken a monster leap this year. What's really great about him is that he seems to love the pressure in putting his team on his back. He has the character and the demeanor to do that. Superstars have that character and leadership gene."
-- San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich

"I would imagine that just out of the blue that Derrick Rose is going to be the guy. That team is what, first in the East right now, or tied? He's literally vaulted that team up on his shoulders by [Carlos] Boozer being out the first month and a half or so. I would say just on pure ‘one guy', individually, he's probably going to get a lot of votes."
-- Los Angeles Lakers head coach Phil Jackson

"I think [it's] Derrick Rose. What he's done for that team, with all the injuries they have and them being first in the Eastern Conference -- they're playing some really good basketball."
-- LeBron James

"Right now, statistically, it's probably one of the best years I've had. But we'll see. The media kind of controls it. You've got some guys here that have done their job also. At one point, I thought Dirk [Nowitzki] was also [worthy] until he got hurt. But Derrick Rose definitely has gotten a lot of the exposure and a lot of the media attention because of the work he's done. He's playing some unbelievable basketball."
-- LeBron James

"You look at what he's done with his team, it's tough to argue D-Rose isn't the MVP."
-- Minnesota Timberwolves forward Kevin Love

http://www.nba.com/bulls/d-rose-mvp.html

[bdreason]

I don't really care that much about the award either, but I just think it's funny how people on here think it was blasphemous that Rose won it.


It's not a "best player in the NBA" award anymore (not that it ever really was), so there are probably 8-10 players in the NBA capable of winning the award. Rose is certainly in that group of capable candidates if the Bulls perform well, and I wasn't surprised one bit that he won the award in 2011.

[Suguru101]

:cheers: Not worth getting a headache over.

I'm just pumped to see a new season of basketball, this offseason is killing me.

Yeah, i don't remember the league being this stacked since... well, can't remember.

We're going to have:

West

OKC
Clippers
Spurs
Rockets
Warriors
Memphis

East

Miami
Bulls
Indiana
Brooklyn
Knicks


And interesting teams like Detroit, Washington, Cleveland, Minnesota... going to be a great season.

Thanks for arguing without being offensive, i appreciate it.

[poido123]

I don't understand your first comment, but ok. The biggest reason why Rose won it is because he had the best record in the NBA.

Rose wasn't the best player in the NBA in 2011. The MVP doesn't always go to the best player in the league or LeBron would have won in 2011. I don't have a problem with Rose getting the MVP. He was a young new star, and the media credited him for leading his team to the best record in the NBA. He was not better than LeBron or Howard. The award goes to the most valuable player, and Rose clearly made big plays and helped win them many games with big shots and plays.

Now whether Howard was more valuable to the Magic than Rose was to the Bulls is a legitimate argument, but Rose deserved it.


I might of misinterpreted your post. Sorry.

Opinion is who people think was the best player in any given year. The fact is, that sportswriters and broadcasters and a small element of online fans vote the MVP, so there's always going to be controversial choices of an MVP. The other fact is, Rose met the criteria of all previous MVP's who had been voted MVP.

It gets pretty silly when people start saying he is undeserving of MVP, when really they should be questioning the validity of the MVP award.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course nobody complained as it was happening, because the narrative was unfolding. But when you look at it now, objectively and with perspective, most would agree that Jordan should have won.

Not that Barkley was undeserving, but that Jordan should have taken the trophy. Same in 2006, the narrative was:

"Nash makes everyone better, amazing teammate, unselfish, blah blah blah..."

But when anybody with good basketball knowledge looks at Nash's MVPs now, we know that Shaq should have won in 2005, and Kobe in 2006.

So people not having a problem with it had a less clear and objective view seeing it live than people looking back 20 years with the knowledge of how it would play out?

Naaaaaaaah.

Ive been a bulls fan since Reggie theus. Ive never had s problem with 93.

97? yes.

93?

Made sense. what happened in the finals has nothing to do with it. Few thought Barkley was better than Jordan before the finals anyway. Wasnt really the issue.

Bulls had an off year and MJ didnt look his best. Scored his ass off in a lot of unusually tough wins and ugly losses. I think that was the year he took 50 shots to score 64 and lose to the Magic. Wasnt the peak of the dynasty days.

He deserved all he won...plus 97. Ive never been mad about others. could argue him in the late 80s some of those years but really? Nobody got snubbed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

The argument doesn't exist, like big foot, because he was the best player in that particular season to win the award within context of everything else. Only argument can be made for Dwight.

[DaSeba5]

I might of misinterpreted your post. Sorry.

Opinion is who people think was the best player in any given year. The fact is, that sportswriters and broadcasters and a small element of online fans vote the MVP, so there's always going to be controversial choices of an MVP. The other fact is, Rose met the criteria of all previous MVP's who had been vote MVP.

It gets pretty silly when people start saying he is undeserving of MVP, when really they should be questioning the validity of the MVP award.

The MVP goes to the most valuable player. It doesn't always go to the best player. That is why people say LeBron does not deserve to win the last two MVPs because if you take LeBron off the Heat they are still a great team. However, his FG% continued to improve every year, things like that 6 game streak with 30 points and 60%, and all of his clutch plays for the team were too good to pass. It will be difficult for LeBron to win the MVP this year because it will be hard to top what he did last year. They look for new faces, but besides in 2011, there really wasn't any legitimate argument of picking somebody else over Lebron.

[NumberSix]

There's no such thing as MVP worthy. You were either the best that season or you weren't. Kevin Durants runner up season was better than many other players MVP seasons, but it doesn't matter. It wasn't "MVP worthy either" because there happened to be a guy that had an even better season.

That's like saying running the 100m in 9.84 is "gold medal worthy". Not if someone else ran a 9.79 it isn't. You just say "I'd be ok with either of them getting the gold. They're both deserving".

[poido123]

There's no such thing as MVP worthy. You were either the best that season or you weren't. Kevin Durants runner up season was better than many other players MVP seasons, but it doesn't matter. It wasn't "MVP worthy either" because there happened to be a guy that had an even better season.

That's like saying running the 100m in 9.84 is "gold medal worthy". Not if someone else ran a 9.79 it isn't. You just say "I'd be ok with either of them getting the gold. They're both deserving".


Then question the award system, not the player who was awarded MVP.

[NumberSix]

Since 1982-83, every player who has won the award has had a .610 winning percentage team or better, except for the two lockout shortened seasons. Which means, that the award is heavily in favour of a player who leads a team with a great wins column.

Whether you believe Rose to be the best player that year or not, this one determining factor is the reason why the best player on a team with a great wins record has won the MVP.
Yeah, but Rose and Iverson are also the only MVPs ever who shot under 45%.

Rose and Nash are the only MVPs to not even be top 10 in player efficiency-that season.

There seems to only be 1 single argument for rose to be the MVP and its that the Bulls had the best record. Pretty weak reasoning.

[GrapeApe]

Based on the criteria that the voters use, Rose was the MVP. It's that simple. There really should be a seperate award for "Most Outstanding Player" or something along those lines that is based strictly on individual performance rather than team success.

[poido123]

The MVP goes to the most valuable player. It doesn't always go to the best player. That is why people say LeBron does not deserve to win the last two MVPs because if you take LeBron off the Heat they are still a great team. However, his FG% continued to improve every year, things like that 6 game streak with 30 points and 60%, and all of his clutch plays for the team were too good to pass. It will be difficult for LeBron to win the MVP this year because it will be hard to top what he did last year. They look for new faces, but besides in 2011, there really wasn't any legitimate argument of picking somebody else over Lebron.


I don't hold MVP's in high regard when it comes to a players legacy. Not all MVP's go on to win championships, or become the best player in the league.

I would much rather see an end of season MVP award. An accumulation of the whole season including the playoffs. So change it from a regular season MVP to a full season MVP where you can see a player's full body of work. Perhaps there can be a criteria where a player can only be awarded an MVP if they MAKE the playoffs.

Just an idea, won't happen though I don't think...

[TheMan]

Rose deserved it in 2011, deal with it. If the MVP were given to the best player in the NBA, Jordan would have 10 MVPs and Shaq would have 5 or 6...

[TheMan]

I don't hold MVP's in high regard when it comes to a players legacy. Not all MVP's go on to win championships, or become the best player in the league.

I would much rather see an end of season MVP award. An accumulation of the whole season including the playoffs. So change it from a regular season MVP to a full season MVP where you can see a player's full body of work. Perhaps there can be a criteria where a player can only be awarded an MVP if they MAKE the playoffs.

Just an idea, won't happen though I don't think...
I agree.

[NumberSix]

It's not a "best player in the NBA" award anymore (not that it ever really was), so there are probably 8-10 players in the NBA capable of winning the award. Rose is certainly in that group of capable candidates if the Bulls perform well, and I wasn't surprised one bit that he won the award in 2011.
No, it's the "best player of the season award"

People misunderstand the meaning of "best player". It means who was the best player of that 1 season. Thats all. LeBron is the best player in general, but another player could have a better season. That would be the "best player" for that season.

[poido123]

Yeah, but Rose and Iverson are also the only MVPs ever who shot under 45%.

Rose and Nash are the only MVPs to not even be top 10 in player efficiency-that season.

There seems to only be 1 single argument for rose to be the MVP and its that the Bulls had the best record. Pretty weak reasoning.

He also improved his 3 point range and bumped his 3pt percentage up from .267 the previous year, to .332 in his MVP year. His 3 pt attempts also went up from .8 attempts to 4.8 attempts which translates to an affected FG%. That is 4 extra shots a game shooting at .332. His previous years he was .475 and .489 purely because he was attempting less 3 point shots.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah, but Rose and Iverson are also the only MVPs ever who shot under 45%.

Rose and Nash are the only MVPs to not even be top 10 in player efficiency-that season.

Neither of those are true.


There seems to only be 1 single argument for rose to be the MVP and its that the Bulls had the best record. Pretty weak reasoning.

It isnt that they had the better record. Its why.

For all the claims of coaching and defense....

64 win pace with Rose.

45 without.

It is not by chance.

He won for the same reason a lot of MVPs won.

Story means nothing without the results.

[Suguru101]

So people not having a problem with it had a less clear and objective view seeing it live than people looking back 20 years with the knowledge of how it would play out?

Naaaaaaaah.

Ive been a bulls fan since Reggie theus. Ive never had s problem with 93.

97? yes.

93?

Made sense. what happened in the finals has nothing to do with it. Few thought Barkley was better than Jordan before the finals anyway. Wasnt really the issue.

Bulls had an off year and MJ didnt look his best. Scored his ass off in a lot of unusually tough wins and ugly losses. I think that was the year he took 50 shots to score 64 and lose to the Magic. Wasnt the peak of the dynasty days.

He deserved all he won...plus 97. Ive never been mad about others. could argue him in the late 80s some of those years but really? Nobody got snubbed.

Maybe had a more clear view, but definitely less objective. People tend to get wrapped up in the moment oR in the narrative as it is happening. Later on, they look at things objectively, and that's when one can say things such as:

How the heck did Nash get two MVPs?

I agree that Barkley was a reasonable choice, i just try to look at MVPs as "best player on a winning team", because the definition is shady..

Anyways, thanks for discussing things in a reasonable manner. :cheers:

[Jameerthefear]

It was between him or Dwight. In my opinion Dwight had a better overall impact on the team, but Rose had all the media hype and a much better regular season record. Bulls also improved a lot too.

[Kblaze8855]

I wasnt that mad at the 06 nash MVP. Once amare was gone they didnt have that good a team. He stepped it out. In 05 I didnt get the Shaq snub because he turned his team around too. From ok to contender. Nash...the Suns won 29 in a throwaway season having traded Marbury for I think Penny Hardaway and playing youngsters to tank and let them improve.

I always felt it was overblown how big the turnaround was. Marbury had the same core in the playoffs.

06 though?

Eh. Kobe isnt getting MVP on a 42 or whatever win team. Dirk I thought would have been ok both years.

[NumberSix]

The MVP goes to the most valuable player. It doesn't always go to the best player. That is why people say LeBron does not deserve to win the last two MVPs because if you take LeBron off the Heat they are still a great team. However, his FG% continued to improve every year, things like that 6 game streak with 30 points and 60%, and all of his clutch plays for the team were too good to pass. It will be difficult for LeBron to win the MVP this year because it will be hard to top what he did last year. They look for new faces, but besides in 2011, there really wasn't any legitimate argument of picking somebody else over Lebron.
The best player of the season IS the most valuable.


26.7/7.5/7 on 51% is more valuable than 25/4.1/7.7 on 44.5% no matter which may you slice it. That doesn't even take defense into account.

LeBrons production is more valuable than Rose's.

And if you want to use the dumb team success thing, being that even with LeBron's superior production the heat won less games, its clear than the Heat needed LeBron's production even more than Chicago needed Roses.

There's no way around it. LeBron was better (more valuable) than rose.

[NumberSix]

He also improved his 3 point range and bumped his 3pt percentage up from .267 the previous year, to .332 in his MVP year. His 3 pt attempts also went up from .8 attempts to 4.8 attempts which translates to an affected FG%. That is 4 extra shots a game shooting at .332. His previous years he was .475 and .489 purely because he was attempting less 3 point shots.
It's not the most improved 3 point shooting award.

Anyways, his 3 point shooting didn't hurt his efficiency. It upgraded it. His .332 is the equivalent of 50% efficiency wise. So it didn't harm him in anyway in the efficiency metrics.

[NumberSix]

Neither of those are true.
Righhhhhhhhttttt. Facts aren't true because a kid on the Internet guesses that they aren't.

Just to be EXTRA clear. Iverson and rose are the only MVPs in the last 47 years to shoot under 45%.

Rose and Nash are the only players in the last 39 years to win MVP without being top 10 in player efficiency.


Facts, or shut the fcuk up.

[SCdac]

MVP has been given to a player shooting under .45% nine times, and to a player shooting under .50% over 20 times. FG% is not the end all be all. There are bigger rarities in the history of the award. For instance, only three times since 1956 has an MVP averaged less than 2.0 assists per game, so even in big men voters look for a certain amount of production.

[NumberSix]

MVP has been given to a player shooting under .45% nine times, and to a player shooting under .50% over 20 times. FG% is not the end all be all. There are bigger rarities in the history of the award. For instance, only three times since 1956 has an MVP averaged less than 2.0 assists per game, so even in big men voters look for a certain amount of production.
Not in the last 47 years.

Can't compare 1950s players to this conversation.

[SCdac]

Not in the last 47 years.

Yet, it happened just 10 years prior (from AI in 01 to Rose in 11) and as mentioned, there are bigger rarities. FG% obviously isn't the end-all be all compared to other statistical categories (if we're going that route). Rose and Lebron are the best candidates that season IMO, and I completely understand why Rose got it. He killed it all season.

[NumberSix]

Yet, it happened just 10 years prior (from AI in 01 to Rose in 11) and as mentioned, there are bigger rarities. FG% obviously isn't the end-all be all compared to other statistical categories (if we're going that route). Rose and Lebron are the best candidates that season IMO, and I completely understand why Rose got it. He killed it all season.
Rose was the Trent dilfer of the bulls.

[Jacks3]

Saying they only won 45 games without Rose is deceiving because of all the injuries. They would have been a easy 50+ win team without with good health.

[NumberSix]

Derrick rose is a glorified role player.
Lol. Ok, now I'm trolling.

[juju151111]

Saying they only won 45 games without Rose is deceiving because of all the injuries. They would have been a easy 50+ win team without with good health.
So how did they win 60+ with him and his frontline missing like 70 games and was playing injured even when they cane back?

[juju151111]

Derrick rose is a glorified role player.
Lol. Ok, now I'm trolling.
Role player makes a team a 60+ win team?

[I<3NBA]

because he's a vag. and we all know vags don't deserve MVPs.

[NumberSix]

So how did they win 60+ with him and his frontline missing like 70 games and was playing injured even when they cane back?
Maybe we should give Keith Bogans all the credit. Why is it automatically all due to Rose?

[ihoopallday]

MVP's are overrated. FMVP is where it's at. Come on now. Kobe has only 1. I think he should have at least 3. Dude was dropping 40+ points a game every night and still didn't win. That right there is enough for me to not care about it.

[NumberSix]

MVP's are overrated. FMVP is where it's at. Come on now. Kobe has only 1. I think he should have at least 3. Dude was dropping 40+ points a game every night and still didn't win. That right there is enough for me to not care about it.
FMVP requires the rest of the players on your team to be good enough to win a championship. I don't judge a guy based on how good other people are. I don't penalize a doctor because his brother is an idiot. I don't like my mom less because her brother is a scumbag.

[ihoopallday]

FMVP requires the rest of the players on your team to be good enough to win a championship. I don't judge a guy based on how good other people are. I don't penalize a doctor because his brother is an idiot. I don't like my mom less because her brother is a scumbag.

:lol Can't disagree with that. I guess I just don't think players like LeBron should be judged by MVP's. They're too good for all that.

[poido123]

It's not the most improved 3 point shooting award.

Anyways, his 3 point shooting didn't hurt his efficiency. It upgraded it. His .332 is the equivalent of 50% efficiency wise. So it didn't harm him in anyway in the efficiency metrics.


:biggums:

Don't know exactly what you're talking about.

The point I was making was, Rose would easily be above 45% FG if he took less threes. In his two previous years he was way above 45%, it would be foolish of you to overlook that. We are not looking at a small rise in 3 point attempts but 4 extra shots that were 3s averaging .332 which directly affects his FG%. If you are using FG% as your argument as to why Rose didn't deserve it, I accuse you of being a boxscore warrior and not actually watching the games in which he clearly improved.

Now, the reason AI and Rose were awarded the MVP's, was not based on their stats or FG%, it was based on MVP criteria that every winner of the MVP has met with few exceptions...

[Bucket_Nakedz]

idiots.

both joakim and boozer missed half of that season. dwight had a great year, be he also did a disservice to his team when the offense ran through him. the magic were a better team when they moved the ball, but dwight demanded the ball therefore they turned into a half court team.

why u think they got bounced in the first round against the hawks? that was enough proof to me that he didn't deserve it.

assholes wanna bring up the bulls success this past season. what about last playoffs when rose went down? did the bulls advance? we see what they can do without rose, now we have to see if rose can take them to the top. rose has no excuse about having inferior talent. team got heart - thats all u need

[SamuraiSWISH]

idiots.

both joakim and boozer missed half of that season. dwight had a great year, be he also did a disservice to his team when the offense ran through him. the magic were a better team when they moved the ball, but dwight demanded the ball therefore they turned into a half court team.

why u think they got bounced in the first round against the hawks? that was enough proof to me that he didn't deserve it.
:pimp:

[TonyMontana]

Ask Rose if he felt like he was the MVP after LeBron ended his career in the ECF.

If it's not LeBron Dirk would have been a good pick as well. To knowledgeable basketball fans Dirks playoff run wasn't that big of a surprise. He was great all year and EXTREMELY valuable to his team.

Dallas's Record with Dirk: 55-18(.753)
Dallas Record w/o Dirk: 2-7(.222)

With Dirk in the lineup, Dallas would have been on pace for the 1st seed in the West. It's obvious being a 3rd seed hurt him. San Antonio was the 1st seed with a 61-21(.744) record.

Dirk just wasn't a sexy pick. In 2011 all anyone cared about was the Heat, and the Bulls having a better record/beating them in meaningless regular season game was enough to fuel the media hype machine.

Theres a reason people routinely call Rose one of if not the worst winner of the MVP award in the history of the league.

[poido123]

Ask Rose if he felt like he was the MVP after LeBron ended his career in the ECF.

If it's not LeBron Dirk would have been a good pick as well. To knowledgeable basketball fans Dirks playoff run wasn't that big of a surprise. He was great all year and EXTREMELY valuable to his team.

Dallas's Record with Dirk: 55-18(.753)
Dallas Record w/o Dirk: 2-7(.222)

With Dirk in the lineup, Dallas would have been on pace for the 1st seed in the West. It's obvious being a 3rd seed hurt him. San Antonio was the 1st seed with a 61-21(.744) record.

Dirk just wasn't a sexy pick. In 2011 all anyone cared about was the Heat, and the Bulls having a better record/beating them in meaningless regular season game was enough to fuel the media hype machine.

Theres a reason people routinely call Rose one of if not the worst winner of the MVP award in the history of the league.


Hmm, you, Numbersix and a couple of known Rose haters are the people you are referring to. Sounds like solid evidence to me :lol

[NumberSix]

Hmm, you, Numbersix and a couple of known Rose haters are the people you are referring to. Sounds like solid evidence to me :lol
How am I a "Rose hater"? :confusedshrug:

[poido123]

How am I a "Rose hater"? :confusedshrug:

You don't have much nice things to say about a guy who has done little wrong..

[CanYouDigIt]

http://i.imgur.com/cpnM2WY.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

"Saying they only won 45 games without Rose is
deceiving because of all the injuries. They would
have been a easy 50+ win team without with
good health."

Perhaps it would be if they were not more injured when they won 62.

They were running with Kurt Thomas for a while there. Won at a 63 win place without Noah. Great without boozer too.

Three defense was there. Coach. Nosh.

Rose not being there was the difference between number one and being the nets.

Wasn't one season either. They won at a 68 win pace with him in 2012 too.

And i suspect they go back to the 60 win range this year. And i bet people will act like it's just by chance

[Human Error]

Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.
1. Lebron
If you think it was unclear who Miami's best player was, you are an idiot.

2. Dwight
The best defensive player in the game who also happened to be the most efficient scorer in the paint.

Rose was given wat too much credit, the real reason that the Bulls overachieved at that season was the team defense designed and installed by a new coach.

[Human Error]

Lol idiots are saying because Miami would still be a good team without Lebron, Lebron is not that important to be the MVP?

Give me a break. He is the team's best scorer, rebounder, passer, ball handler and defender. And his team is the best team in the league. Oh yeah what an unimportant player who could be replaced rather easily.

Maybe Miami could win 50 games and make the playoffs without Lebron, but the difference between a 66 win eventual champion and a 50 win team would be much bigger than that of a 50 win team and 30 win team.

[Unbiased_one]

.....

How bad do you think the magic would have been without Dwight? Dwight was a better offensive player than rose IMO, but that's arguable. What is inarguable is that he was playing a different game entirely defensively.

There is no question in my mind whatsoever that Dwight deserved it over rose, and that rose only won cause of media love.

[comerb]

It doesn't mean Rose doesn't deserve it or meet the criteria for an MVP, Rose had a team percentage over .610 which is what every MVP has had since 83'.

It is arguable that Rose was the best player, what you believe to be different is not FACT.

It's also arguable that the sky is pink. Just because you say it doesn't make it a good argument.

[retaxis]

1. Rose deserved it.
2. Lebron annhilated Rose in the playoffs and showed the world what he thought of the 'MVP'.

2 years later.

1. Rose to return from ACL and skills/athleticism questionable
2. Lebron 2FMVP and 2MVP added to his cabinet

Hope Rose the best btw, but if you pay attention to his play style its too much lateral side to side fast movement and then he pops and explodes vertically. Its not the sort of playstyle you can come back and utilize after an ACL. He either has to adapt to a new playstyle or that ACL is going to tear again real quick. Lebron on the other hand..well 'he got no worries'

[greymatter]

For all the claims of coaching and defense....

64 win pace with Rose.

45 without.

It is not by chance.

Deliberate misleading. You chose this past years team to compare knowing that their bench lost Asik, Korver, Watson. Bulls were credited with the best and deepest bench in 2011 and in the 2012 shortened season still won 70% of Roseless games.

[Mr Exlax]

That was dwight's mvp...

This

[SilkkTheShocker]

People saying Howard should have won really need to stop. 4th seed in the East will not get you an MVP.

[Mr Exlax]

People saying Howard should have won really need to stop. 4th seed in the East will not get you an MVP.

Take Rose off the Bulls and they look like the could make the playoffs. Take LeBron off Miami and they looked like they could make the playoffs. Take Dwight off Orlando and they make the lottery bro. That's MVP shit. Because his teammates weren't that good so that makes him less valuable? I've never understood why the team record counts so much. If that's the only reason somebody can come up with though that's crazy to me.

[Pointguard]

The best player of the season IS the most valuable.


26.7/7.5/7 on 51% is more valuable than 25/4.1/7.7 on 44.5% no matter which may you slice it. That doesn't even take defense into account.

LeBrons production is more valuable than Rose's.

And if you want to use the dumb team success thing, being that even with LeBron's superior production the heat won less games, its clear than the Heat needed LeBron's production even more than Chicago needed Roses.

There's no way around it. LeBron was better (more valuable) than rose.

Lebron and Wade simply were in each others way and didn't even have established roles. Wade was the leader and Lebron didn't really know how to fit in. And it cost them the best record and got them second place in their division. They sucked against better teams. One good highlight was Lebron getting mad at a higher up in Orlando and told them he was going to bust them up in Orlando and Dwight Howard was a witness. In fact they shortly thereafter busted the Orlando team up. DH exit right stage and wasn't a superstar after March 1st. His leadership sucked and got suspended a couple of times. Not a good look for a contending MVP.

Rose was more valuable than Lebron in games against the elite. And that's putting it mildly. Rose would not let his team lose and they didn't lose to a top eight team after Dec. 13th. Miami wasn't even good against the elite. At March 1st Miami, Orlando and Chicago were all within a game and a half within each other. It was MVP time, and it wasn't close. Not only did Rose take over games in the fourth quarter, he simply won more games on his back than anybody else without question. Team had injuries like crazy and to the two other key players.

Rose was the only player that played hard and with purpose the whole year. There were no taking games off or looking lost. Lebron was a better player but he had more games where he looked lost, where he didn't know how he fitted in and wasn't the leader of his team when they needed it. DH subscribed to the same problems. Their teams were not even pushing the Bulls. And Miami had every reason in the world to win more games. And Rose was the offense of his team - without another player making the allstar team or any other team for that matter. Nobody making the top ten in anything.

[Kblaze8855]

Deliberate misleading. You chose this past years team to compare knowing that their bench lost Asik, Korver, Watson. Bulls were credited with the best and deepest bench in 2011 and in the 2012 shortened season still won 70% of Roseless games.

No. Thats every single game with and without rose since game one of 10/11. The games he missed that year...the games he missed in 2012...and all last season. Simple with and without since the time in question.

Not like its hard to look into. Do the numbers yourself. They were on a 67 and change win pace with Rose playing in 2012. 33 wins and 7 losses.

Just the facts.

[HurricaneKid]

The BULLS had a great year. Their ascension from middling defensive team to defensive juggernaut was the reason why. Giving Rose ANY credit for this is borderline absurd as he was a horrible defensive liability (though he did improve some the following season). People don't get that defense is often what wins and would rather give credit to the leading scorer of a successful team. That team lost Asik, Korver, Watson AND Rose and still made the second round of the playoffs. Meanwhile, without LeBron on the floor last year Miami has been outscored by their opponents, and by a HUGE margin.


2010-2011 RAPM

1) Howard - 9.7
2) LeBron - 8.1
3) CP3 - 7.5
4) Dirk - 6.9
.
.
.
32) DRose - 3.2

I don't mind not giving it to LeBron that year because they lost ALL their close games and there were a lot of adjustments being made and his benefit (outside of Cleveland going from a 66 win team to the worst losing streak in pro sports history) was diminished.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Take Rose off the Bulls and they look like the could make the playoffs. Take LeBron off Miami and they looked like they could make the playoffs. Take Dwight off Orlando and they make the lottery bro. That's MVP shit. Because his teammates weren't that good so that makes him less valuable? I've never understood why the team record counts so much. If that's the only reason somebody can come up with though that's crazy to me.

I don't disagree. They just aren't going to change the way they feel about the regular season records

[jlip]

I'm not saying that Rose didn't deserve the MVP. I often say that it's usually easier to make a case for another candidate than it is against the winner. Having said that, the MVP storyline that season was as much about "How can we make certain we avoid giving it to Lebron?" as it was about anything else. Again, Rose may have deserved it, but ensuring that Lebron didn't receive it was just as important. Howard may have actually been the best choice, but the voters weren't going to give the MVP to a player on the team with the 8th best record in the league.

[Kblaze8855]

The BULLS had a great year. Their ascension from middling defensive team to defensive juggernaut was the reason why. Giving Rose ANY credit for this is borderline absurd as he was a horrible defensive liability (though he did improve some the following season). People don't get that defense is often what wins and would rather give credit to the leading scorer of a successful team.

You mean like....virtually in every case in the history of sports?

When...has the clearly best player on a dominant team not been given credit for it because of team defense or hustle? You wanna say a teams best player shouldnt get love over good team morale and ball movement now? Its basketball. You win by playing it well together.

Did I miss the people hating on Bird because the Celtics had an elite defense?

Who is prepared to hate on Isiah Thomas for arguably the GOAT defense to that point along with 5 all stars, one of the best 6th men ever, the DPOY, and a HOF coach? Meanwhile hes shooting worse than Rose and nobody seems to care. Reasonably sure his HOF career summary does not mention it. Why would it?

A teams leader always has and always will get the credit for its success. Especially one who wins at the rate of the second threepeat Bulls on a team that is a 5th seed without him.

Amazes me how many Heat fans get in on this idiocy. Have clowns laughing over a torn acl hating on a guy for 3 years even when the rest of the world is praising him. The Pacers coach was so impressed with Rose one game he said he had Iversons speed, Kidds vision, Billups shooting, and Jordans athletic ability...just...gushing praise. He had dropped like 40. Same game Heat fans talking shit about his shooting percentage like basketball people give a shit.

Im a bulls fan. Nobody ever saw me hating on Lebron. Or Rondo. Or Westbrook. What is it that makes otherwise reasonable people act like bitches on the internet over a team rivalry? Some guy jumps on the heat bandwaggon and suddenly he has to hate Derrick Rose?

The **** is wrong with you people?

Derrick Rose is gonna be a first ballot hall of famer barring more injury and you will still be mad about a shooting percentage 20 years earlier because Lebron didnt win an MVP on a team that underachieved and had 2 other stars on it with the expectation of ruling the league.

You dont go in expected to approach 70 wins....win like 55-56....have people asking all year why you arent as good as you should be while another player on your team is playing almost exactly as well...and get MVP.

And you dont win 52 games and win MVP either.

This is what I said April 2011:



By the way ive always thought the MVP voting should go...

Id give it to Dwight. Lebron is probably the best player(by an inch or two over Dwight) but I cant get past him having perhaps the 3rd or 4th best on his team. Hes borderline superfluous. The Heat likely win 50 games or more without any of the 3. His value will show most in the playoffs where great players can win you a game or series you shouldnt win. Regular season...in the long grind...not sure how to justify voting for a guy as the MVP when the removal of him wouldnt hurt the teams record that much. Might hurt it 8-9 games. But remove Dwight?

Ugly.


But that has not been how it works for 30 years.

I didnt care who won it then and I dont care now. Clearly I wouldnt have been mad at Dwight winning.

But there has been so much bullshit claimed about Rose since im glad he did.

He was a legit option. Lebron and the Heat just didnt win that much relative to the firepower.

Dwight ended up with what would have been the worst MVP record in a quarter century.

Rose was the key player on a team that is just ok without him.

He won MVP. Nobody with half a brain is taking points from him over team cohesiveness or getting back on defense. Nobody ever took points from anyone else over it.

And not like there was an 09 Lebron leading an ok team to 66 wins or Jordan doing 35ppg on a 50 win team.

Just guys with shaky claims who got hurt at the wrong time or didnt win that much.

Being mad for years is just sad. And sadder still...that so many are from one fanbase. Being a bulls fan all my life didnt cause me to hate on Dwight and there are people here who think I love Lebron(I dont even like him most of the time). Clearly my love of my team has not caused me to hate on them. Why must so many Heat fans show up hating on Rose calling him Brandon Jennings or a role player. Is there a shepherd somewhere leading you all around?

[TheMan]

Derrick rose is a glorified role player.
Lol. Ok, now I'm trolling.
Hate much?
Ha, you got me:cheers:

[Unbiased_one]

2010-2011 RAPM

1) Howard - 9.7
2) LeBron - 8.1
3) CP3 - 7.5
4) Dirk - 6.9
.
.
.
32) DRose - 3.2
.

This is all people need to know. RAPM isn't the be all and end all but that's pretty clear cut.

[Kblaze8855]

What the hell is RAPM?

And if its all people need to know how was greatness determined in the 60 years of NBA basketball before it existed?

Nobody needs any of these random numbers pulled out of the ass of someone not even involved in basketball.

[DMAVS41]

Rose clearly deserved MVP based on the historical standard...

Rose was clearly not the best player in the league in 11...

[Unbiased_one]

What the hell is RAPM?

And if its all people need to know how was greatness determined in the 60 years of NBA basketball before it existed?

Nobody needs any of these random numbers pulled out of the ass of someone not even involved in basketball.

The stat's not clear cut. But rose is so far down that he's way outside the confidence intervals associated with it.

I don't have that big a problem with claiming rose deserved mvp (although I disagree with it)...but the claim that he was (or is) the best player in the NBA is seriously farfetched and has little going for it.

[Kblaze8855]

The stat's not clear cut. But rose is so far down that he's way outside the confidence intervals associated with it.

I don't have that big a problem with claiming rose deserved mvp (although I disagree with it)...but the claim that he was (or is) the best player in the NBA is seriously farfetched and has little going for it.

For real...I dont even know what that is.

Is that the new per/winshares/whatever?

[TheMan]

Ask Rose if he felt like he was the MVP after LeBron ended his career in the ECF.

If it's not LeBron Dirk would have been a good pick as well. To knowledgeable basketball fans Dirks playoff run wasn't that big of a surprise. He was great all year and EXTREMELY valuable to his team.

Dallas's Record with Dirk: 55-18(.753)
Dallas Record w/o Dirk: 2-7(.222)

With Dirk in the lineup, Dallas would have been on pace for the 1st seed in the West. It's obvious being a 3rd seed hurt him. San Antonio was the 1st seed with a 61-21(.744) record.

Dirk just wasn't a sexy pick. In 2011 all anyone cared about was the Heat, and the Bulls having a better record/beating them in meaningless regular season game was enough to fuel the media hype machine.

Theres a reason people routinely call Rose one of if not the worst winner of the MVP award in the history of the league.
Honestly, only you and a few of the known LeBron dickriders/Rose haters are the only ones spewing that garbage.

[HurricaneKid]

The Bulls minus rose fell off by more than most teams would minus the MVP. The Heat sure as hell arent a 45 win team without Lebron.

Doesnt seem anyone cares.

Your cherrypicking and twisting of every stat available is hilarious. You multiply bad figures to get worse ones. You pretend that there has been a huge dropoff when there really hasn't been. They got backdoor swept in 10-11 in the ECF. Last year, without the NBA's leading rebounder, arguably the NBA's best shooter PLUS DRose they lost one round earlier. Cleveland went from the #1 seed two years in a row to the worst losing streak in the history of professional sports when LeBron left.

Losing some games from your bigs is borderline irrelevant when you bring a guy off the bench like Asik. And leaving those personnel losses outside of your calculations is hilarious and belies your clear agenda.

With LeBron off the floor Miami was ~-1.8pts/48 last year. That puts them at worse than Milwaukee but slightly better than Toronto.

[Kblaze8855]

Your cherrypicking and twisting of every stat available is hilarious. You multiply bad figures to get worse ones. You pretend that there has been a huge dropoff when there really hasn't been. They got backdoor swept in 10-11 in the ECF. Last year, without the NBA's leading rebounder, arguably the NBA's best shooter PLUS DRose they lost one round earlier. Cleveland went from the #1 seed two years in a row to the worst losing streak in the history of professional sports when LeBron left.

Losing some games from your bigs is borderline irrelevant when you bring a guy off the bench like Asik. And leaving those personnel losses outside of your calculations is hilarious and belies your clear agenda.

With LeBron off the floor Miami was ~-1.8pts/48 last year. That puts them at worse than Milwaukee but slightly better than Toronto.

So...im supposed to add up what? How much effort do you think im putting in? Instead of saying what they won and lost im supposed to....what exactly?

When people say they did fine without Rose I notice they dont mention Nate robinson stepping in. As if he was there all along. And Kirk returning as well.

Why is that?

Perhaps because....we are speaking generally and not acting like a team is ever the exact same year to year?

The Bulls win at a 64 win pace with Rose.

45 or so without.

Just how it is. Take from it what you will.

And....you are saying the Heat minus Lebron are slightly better than the raptors or what?

What do those numbers mean exactly?

[greymatter]

No. Thats every single game with and without rose since game one of 10/11. The games he missed that year...the games he missed in 2012...and all last season. Simple with and without since the time in question.

Not like its hard to look into. Do the numbers yourself. They were on a 67 and change win pace with Rose playing in 2012. 33 wins and 7 losses.

Just the facts.

The facts say that Bulls lost a lot of depth on both sides of the ball with the departures of Asik, Korver, Watson, Brewer. With the same 2011 team minus Rose, they were still a 53-54 plus win team.

Bottom line is that Rose owes his MVP to Thibs and his superior team defense and rebounding and the Spurs finishing their season 4-8.

[DMAVS41]

Kblaze...

Are you arguing that Rose deserved MVP...or that he was the best player? Or both?

[Unbiased_one]

For real...I dont even know what that is.

Is that the new per/winshares/whatever?

PER is a crap stat because people use it as an efficiency stat (when it isn't), and parts of its construction make no sense.

OWS is actually a reasonably logical box-score generated measure of total offensive contribution (the negative being that it's from a box-score), but DWS is BS as far as I'm concerned.

RAPM is an adjusted plus minus stat which is for me the best single measure of a player's contribution to his team (there is also something called XRAPM which also factors in box-score contributions but I don't think it's as good for that precise reason).

[tpols]

Kblaze...

Are you arguing that Rose deserved MVP...or that he was the best player? Or both?
Hes saying Miami would win more than 45 games with Wade/Bosh/Allen/etc. and they would since they were healthy in the regular season and playing great.


Thats why Lebron didnt deserve MVP.. he didnt elevate his team to more wins than Rose did in the regular season.

Take them both off, Lebrons team wins more.. but in 2011, Rose's team won more. Meaning he did more with less.

[Kblaze8855]

The facts say that Bulls lost a lot of depth on both sides of the ball with the departures of Asik, Korver, Watson, Brewer. With the same 2011 team minus Rose, they were still a 53-54 plus win team.

Bottom line is that Rose owes his MVP to Thibs and his superior team defense and rebounding and the Spurs finishing their season 4-8.


53-54 wins? Ah...a theory. We have a theory. Im gonna go ahead and leave that in the world you found it. And deal in the one we have.

Rose owes his MVP to his team like every MVP ever did. Just to different degrees. Hes hardly the only MVP on a team that won with defense while not being a key defender.

[DMAVS41]

Hes saying Miami would win more than 45 games with Wade/Bosh/Allen/etc. and they would since they were healthy in the regular season and playing great.


Thats why Lebron didnt deserve MVP.. he didnt elevate his team to more wins than Rose did in the regular season.

Take them both off, Lebrons team wins more.. but in 2011, Rose's team won more. Meaning he did more with less.

Added wins like that makes a great case for MVP...a case that I have always agreed with.

However, that doesn't make a good case for best player.

I'm trying to find out if he thought Rose was the best player in 11...that is why I asked it.

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze...

Are you arguing that Rose deserved MVP...or that he was the best player? Or both?

You have never heard me say Rose was the best anything. Im not even 100% sure I ever said hes the best pointguard. And I dont believe I ever said he was my MVP either. I know in the post I quoted from 2011 seems I had Dwight picked.

I didnt care then and I dont care now. But when I watch a team go from as good as anyone...to being the Hawks...I wont pretend I cant see why when its best player is missing and its celebrated defense and coach are still there.

[tpols]

Added wins like that makes a great case for MVP...a case that I have always agreed with.

However, that doesn't make a good case for best player.

I'm trying to find out if he thought Rose was the best player in 11...that is why I asked it.
Well in the 2011 regular season, it was Lebron who went like 08 or something on game winning shots and was clanking them everywhere to lose games, and Rose was the one who was fantastic in the clutch that year and led his team single handedly to wins in a bunch of fourth quarters.

Playoffs it went into reverse... but in the regular season, sure Lebron is the better player in and of itself, but he did not play better. Like a superstar having a bad game and a worse allstar outperforming him.

[DMAVS41]

Well in the 2011 regular season, it was Lebron who went like 08 or something on game winning shots and was clanking them everywhere to lose games, and Rose was the one who was fantastic in the clutch that year and led his team single handedly to wins in a bunch of fourth quarters.

Playoffs it went into reverse... but in the regular season, sure Lebron is the better player in and of itself, but he did not play better. Like a superstar having a bad game and a worse allstar outperforming him.

I wouldn't say Lebron was the best player in the 11 regular season though.

It was clearly Dirk and Howard in my opinion.

[DMAVS41]

You have never heard me say Rose was the best anything. Im not even 100% sure I ever said hes the best pointguard. And I dont believe I ever said he was my MVP either. I know in the post I quoted from 2011 seems I had Dwight picked.

I didnt care then and I dont care now. But when I watch a team go from as good as anyone...to being the Hawks...I wont pretend I cant see why when its best player is missing and its celebrated defense and coach are still there.

Sure...but I think what the argument is...is that replace Rose with another offensive minded quality player and you'd get great results. I would imagine that is the argument.

Not that...just lose Rose and not replace him...that doesn't make sense.

I do think Rose was very good...but highly replaceable with other elite offensive players. I usually rank Rose somewhere around the 7th best player in the league.

[HurricaneKid]

You mean like....virtually in every case in the history of sports?

When...has the clearly best player on a dominant team not been given credit for it because of team defense or hustle? You wanna say a teams best player shouldnt get love over good team morale and ball movement now? Its basketball. You win by playing it well together.

Did I miss the people hating on Bird because the Celtics had an elite defense?

Who is prepared to hate on Isiah Thomas for arguably the GOAT defense to that point along with 5 all stars, one of the best 6th men ever, the DPOY, and a HOF coach? Meanwhile hes shooting worse than Rose and nobody seems to care. Reasonably sure his HOF career summary does not mention it. Why would it?

A teams leader always has and always will get the credit for its success. Especially one who wins at the rate of the second threepeat Bulls on a team that is a 5th seed without him.

Amazes me how many Heat fans get in on this idiocy. Have clowns laughing over a torn acl hating on a guy for 3 years even when the rest of the world is praising him. The Pacers coach was so impressed with Rose one game he said he had Iversons speed, Kidds vision, Billups shooting, and Jordans athletic ability...just...gushing praise. He had dropped like 40. Same game Heat fans talking shit about his shooting percentage like basketball people give a shit.

Im a bulls fan. Nobody ever saw me hating on Lebron. Or Rondo. Or Westbrook. What is it that makes otherwise reasonable people act like bitches on the internet over a team rivalry? Some guy jumps on the heat bandwaggon and suddenly he has to hate Derrick Rose?

The **** is wrong with you people?

Derrick Rose is gonna be a first ballot hall of famer barring more injury and you will still be mad about a shooting percentage 20 years earlier because Lebron didnt win an MVP on a team that underachieved and had 2 other stars on it with the expectation of ruling the league.

You dont go in expected to approach 70 wins....win like 55-56....have people asking all year why you arent as good as you should be while another player on your team is playing almost exactly as well...and get MVP.

And you dont win 52 games and win MVP either.

This is what I said April 2011:




But that has not been how it works for 30 years.

I didnt care who won it then and I dont care now. Clearly I wouldnt have been mad at Dwight winning.

But there has been so much bullshit claimed about Rose since im glad he did.

He was a legit option. Lebron and the Heat just didnt win that much relative to the firepower.

Dwight ended up with what would have been the worst MVP record in a quarter century.

Rose was the key player on a team that is just ok without him.

He won MVP. Nobody with half a brain is taking points from him over team cohesiveness or getting back on defense. Nobody ever took points from anyone else over it.

And not like there was an 09 Lebron leading an ok team to 66 wins or Jordan doing 35ppg on a 50 win team.

Just guys with shaky claims who got hurt at the wrong time or didnt win that much.

Being mad for years is just sad. And sadder still...that so many are from one fanbase. Being a bulls fan all my life didnt cause me to hate on Dwight and there are people here who think I love Lebron(I dont even like him most of the time). Clearly my love of my team has not caused me to hate on them. Why must so many Heat fans show up hating on Rose calling him Brandon Jennings or a role player. Is there a shepherd somewhere leading you all around?

The identity of the team came straight from Thibs. And I would argue that Thibs has done more to change the way the game is played than any person in my lifetime. When defensive juggernauts in the NFL, MLB, etc win its the LB or Pitcher that gets the credit. Rose was not one of the best 8 defensive players on the Bulls in 2011. So why, when the team is built on defense is he given credit for that success?

You misunderstand the "hate". Its not that we can't appreciate Rose for the great season he had. Its that we recognize he isn't in the same stratosphere as the players he beat out. When you become the media darling and you aren't deserving there is going to be a long lasting backlash. People are STILL killing Steve Nash for his MVPs and that was twice as long ago. Rose is NOT Brandon Jennings (I am a Bucks fan and I would consider it an insult to call my BROTHER Brandon Jennings). But he isn't LeBron by any stretch of the imagination. To many of us this isn't Barkley winning the MVP over MJ. This feels more like Gary Payton or Kevin Johnson beating him out. Really good players but not in the elite conversation.

[Kblaze8855]

Sure...but I think what the argument is...is that replace Rose with another offensive minded quality player and you'd get great results. I would imagine that is the argument.

Not that...just lose Rose and not replace him...that doesn't make sense.

I do think Rose was very good...but highly replaceable with other elite offensive players. I usually rank Rose somewhere around the 7th best player in the league.


Other elite offensive players? So you replace him with some other guy probably going to the hall of fame the team is fine?

I agree. I just dont see how thats a negative. Its like saying you could replace Wes Unseld with Dave Cowens or Bob Lanier and the Bullets would have still been great.

I dont see how thats even a knock.

Now...


Im gonna post a Rose game. Not just highlights....it has the misses too. Some turnovers. And we lost. So its not some highpoint. Take a moment when you have the time and watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFWOeXBAdsM


He shot poorly. 11-28. You will see like 5 rimmed out layups and 2 blocked layups.

He starts to force it with the threes late as he tried to get us back in it.

ends up with a bad looking statline.

Tell me. He goes....11-28.

How many bad shots did you see before desperation quick shot time?

Thats the typical hated on Derrick Rose game. Poor shooting. Lost.

Id like to know what you find wrong with what he was doing there. And if you can find a way to appreciate the basketball he was playing.

[Kblaze8855]

The identity of the team came straight from Thibs. And I would argue that Thibs has done more to change the way the game is played than any person in my lifetime. When defensive juggernauts in the NFL, MLB, etc win its the LB or Pitcher that gets the credit.



You cant compare a sport with 10 people playing all the time to one where guys just...go sit and watch their defense. Your defense can literally stop the other team from scoring at all. And you watch them do it and can win with 1 point scored. Which is why a pitcher or disruptive defender in the NFL gets a good bit of credit.

Basketball is not a game like that. No matter what you do the other team is gonna score 70. And you need 71.




Rose was not one of the best 8 defensive players on the Bulls in 2011. So why, when the team is built on defense is he given credit for that success?


So when Isiah gets credit for leading title teams as the 7th best defender on a defensive team its fine. A defensive team with the DPOY, 2 guys who led the league in rebounding, 2 all stars who are neither of those first 2 and a guy called the Microwave.

All good.

When Rose wins with less help....he shouldnt get that credit.

Or we hating on Isiah too?


You misunderstand the "hate". Its not that we can't appreciate Rose for the great season he had. Its that we recognize he isn't in the same stratosphere as the players he beat out.

Player perhaps. One who took his otherwordly talent and had the worst season he had in years on a team with more help than hed ever had. Oscar robertson isnt Wilt or Russell. Bob Mcadoo isnt Kareem. They have down years or somehow fail to shine as bright as usual they dont get the MVP off their names.



When you become the media darling and you aren't deserving there is going to be a long lasting backlash.


People really have to get off the media. Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk, Paul, KG, and everyone else great is a media darling. More so when they win 60+ games in spectacular fashion.




People are STILL killing Steve Nash for his MVPs and that was twice as long ago. Rose is NOT Brandon Jennings (I am a Bucks fan and I would consider it an insult to call my BROTHER Brandon Jennings). But he isn't LeBron by any stretch of the imagination. To many of us this isn't Barkley winning the MVP over MJ. This feels more like Gary Payton or Kevin Johnson beating him out. Really good players but not in the elite conversation.


If Michael Jordan joined Drexler and Brad Daugherty and won less than he did on the Bulls while Hakeem got hurt late in the season and faltered, Barkley won 52 games, and KJ won 62 as the best player on his team by a mile....he might have.

Wouldnt be his fault they didnt do as well as usual.

Lebron took more talent to less wins.

If hes better it didnt reflect in on the court performance.

Which is why he didnt win.

Being better isnt really the issue.

When Nash won there were head scratchers all around.

Nash gets it for a turnaround while shaq turns another team around. Dirk doesnt win...when he takes less talent than Nash had to what...59 wins? Improving his team...which Nash just left.

06?

Less.

2011 it was clear Rose would win. It isnt media love either. People act like the media screws someone and awards an MVP out of love yearly. Idiots claim it about Lebron.

Lebron won when he won because he won a hell of a lot of games and wasnt a letdown. Not media love.

Rose won because he won a hell of a lot of games and nobody saw it coming. Not media love.

Players, coaches, or fans would have voted Lebron as the winner of all 4 of his and Rose in 2011 too.

It was just...a usual MVP decision. And not a very hard one. 113 out of 121?

I dont think history will be that mad.

No 69 win Jordan getting snubbed here.

Lebron or Dwight wins it its one of the weakest MVPs in history anyway.

[tpols]

But he isn't LeBron by any stretch of the imagination. To many of us this isn't Barkley winning the MVP over MJ. This feels more like Gary Payton beating him out. Really good players but not in the elite conversation.
Well thats exactly what happened.

Derrick Rose outperformed Lebron in the 2011 regular season.

Lebron is a better player in general. But he was outperformed in that time interval.


Its like.. the 2011 Heat are a way better team than the 2011 Mavs. But who outperformed who? For a single regular season Rose played better than Lebron.

[HurricaneKid]

For real...I dont even know what that is.

Is that the new per/winshares/whatever?

TS%, PER, WS, etc are basic enough computations. At one point people actually called people using these stats nerds. Well the actual nerds went WAY beyond those and created some really complex statistics designed to get rid of as many of the variables as they could.

The counting stats just don't show the effectiveness of a lot of players. Draw a charge? Deflect a pass? D someone up and cause a 24 sec violation? Those show the same thing in the box score as standing there like Jimmer at BYU and letting your guy fly by you.

What statisticians want to create is a way to look at the player's quantiative effectiveness on the game. So +/- becomes really interesting. Unfortunately, there is always an insane amount of noise when looking at +/-. Who was in the game with you, who were you playing against, was their best player in, was it home or road game, what pace was the game played at, etc. But if they can remove that noise they can really see a player's true effect on the actual score of the game. And that is what RAPM is.

http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2011/12/6/2602153/advanced-stats-primer

Is really good explaining why +/- needs adjustments and why even the adjusted +/- isn't good enough. But the math on this gets difficult for nuclear physicists so comprehend (seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikhonov_regularization) so rather than use RAPM and the like we settle for things we can explain.

The problem is that we want as much data as we can get. Often we need to get into prior seasons to get enough data points to become predictive. Meanwhile, voters would prefer to look at LeBron going 2/12 on game winners and DRose making 4 game winners.

[greymatter]

53-54 wins? Ah...a theory. We have a theory. Im gonna go ahead and leave that in the world you found it. And deal in the one we have.

Rose owes his MVP to his team like every MVP ever did. Just to different degrees. Hes hardly the only MVP on a team that won with defense while not being a key defender.

As Hurricane already said. You're a cherrypicker. The strike shortened season showed a decent sample size of how well the Bulls still played minus Rose. That was the last season before the Bulls bench was gutted.

Edit: 18-9 looks to be in the 53-54w neighborhood.

[Kblaze8855]

As Hurricane already said. You're a cherrypicker. The strike shortened season showed a decent sample size of how well the Bulls still played minus Rose. That was the last season before the Bulls bench was gutted.

Edit: 18-9 looks to be in the 53-54w neighborhood.


1. Cherrypicking is not what you call counting every single game.

2. When I got to specific years it was because of you.

3. In the year you just mentioned....



They were on a 68 win pace with him.....

33 wins.

7 losses.

.825.

67.65 wins in 82.

You can pretend that playing at a pace equivalent of the 3rd best record of all time isnt much different from playing at a 3rd to 5th seed(depending on the year) pace.

Thats on you.

I find it rather different. Different like....being last years Heat record wise....or a little worse than Memphis?

Quite a bit larger than the difference between wins with and without a lot of MVPs. Id estimate...10-12 wins is a usual dropoff. Wilts 76ers....won 57. Jordans Bulls 55. Kareems bucks swapped him for a good 4 and won the same number of games. Oscars team I think was about the same. Rick Barry left and his team won I think 50-55 when he went to the ABA. Birds Celtics maybe from 55 to 42 is close? Great players dont tend to make as much of an impact on wins as one might assume.

Not on really good teams.

[ILLsmak]

Rose clearly deserved MVP based on the historical standard...

Rose was clearly not the best player in the league in 11...


That's about the case and anyone who disagrees with these two points is ****ing up.

I hate that, in arguments on message boards, it seems like people can't go out and make two statements like this (that set limits on each side.) So it comes down to, in a thread like this, arguing who was the better player or which player was more important for their team.

That team won more games than anyone expected them to, had the best record in the league. Rose played like a superstar.

Also wow @ saying he shot under 45% when he shot .445. What are we talking about here? That's like 7 or 8 shots over the course of the year by my calculations. Jussayin...

I bet you can say he was one of the lowest FTA averaging MVPS, too, especially if you want to stipulate MVPs that were number 1 options. You can say that it means he's just not as aggressive as others (heh) but I'm saying it means he didn't get bailed out. And that's worth the less than 10 shots he missed to put him "under 45%."

-Smak

[NumberSix]

Sure...but I think what the argument is...is that replace Rose with another offensive minded quality player and you'd get great results. I would imagine that is the argument.

Not that...just lose Rose and not replace him...that doesn't make sense.

I do think Rose was very good...but highly replaceable with other elite offensive players. I usually rank Rose somewhere around the 7th best player in the league.
This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.

[DMAVS41]

Other elite offensive players? So you replace him with some other guy probably going to the hall of fame the team is fine?

I agree. I just dont see how thats a negative. Its like saying you could replace Wes Unseld with Dave Cowens or Bob Lanier and the Bullets would have still been great.

I dont see how thats even a knock.

Now...


Im gonna post a Rose game. Not just highlights....it has the misses too. Some turnovers. And we lost. So its not some highpoint. Take a moment when you have the time and watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFWOeXBAdsM


He shot poorly. 11-28. You will see like 5 rimmed out layups and 2 blocked layups.

He starts to force it with the threes late as he tried to get us back in it.

ends up with a bad looking statline.

Tell me. He goes....11-28.

How many bad shots did you see before desperation quick shot time?

Thats the typical hated on Derrick Rose game. Poor shooting. Lost.

Id like to know what you find wrong with what he was doing there. And if you can find a way to appreciate the basketball he was playing.

It's not a negative. Its an argument used when people try to use the Bulls winning more games than "x team" as evidence that Rose is a better player...etc.

That was my point.

And in that sense...the defense and rebounding was the driving factor in the wins. Their offense was 11th best and their defense was first. Rose made no impact defensively...in fact, the Bulls defense actually improved with him off the floor.

That is the point.

Again...it's only valid if someone is claiming Rose is the best player because of team success and not his own play...and obviously his own play doesn't warrant putting him in the class as best player in the league.

Hope that makes sense.

[NumberSix]

Well thats exactly what happened.

Derrick Rose outperformed Lebron in the 2011 regular season.

Lebron is a better player in general. But he was outperformed in that time interval.


Its like.. the 2011 Heat are a way better team than the 2011 Mavs. But who outperformed who? For a single regular season Rose played better than Lebron.
Yet, LeBron somehow managed to be superior in every statistical category and every efficiency metric. I don't know how you outplay somehow when they are better than you in every measurement available.

The only thing Rose has over LeBron is averaging 0.7 more assists.

LeBron was #1 in the league in overall win shares. #1 in offensives win shares. #3 in defensive win shares behind Dwight and KG. #1 in player efficiency.

LeBron averaged more points than Rose with a FG% that was better by more than 5%.

By every measure available, LeBron was better and more valuable on offense. On defense, we don't even need to act like that's a discussion.


There's no possible argument that "Rose outplayed LeBron". It's a ridiculous statement with no basis in fact.

[tpols]

There's no possible argument that "Rose outplayed LeBron". It's a ridiculous statement with no basis in fact.

Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.

[HurricaneKid]

So when Isiah gets credit for leading title teams as the 7th best defender on a defensive team its fine. A defensive team with the DPOY, 2 guys who led the league in rebounding, 2 all stars who are neither of those first 2 and a guy called the Microwave.


A big part of this is that these data sets and the understanding we have on the effectiveness players have on the game are exploding. We didn't used to have this level of information at our finger tips. So to say "so it was ok 20+ years ago it should be fine now" is disingenuous. And Dumars won as many FMVP as Isiah did.



Or we hating on Isiah too?


How old do you think I am?



When Rose wins with less help....he shouldnt get that credit.


You keep saying this but the data is complete disagreement with you.



Player perhaps. One who took his otherwordly talent and had the worst season he had in years on a team with more help than hed ever had. Oscar robertson isnt Wilt or Russell. Bob Mcadoo isnt Kareem. They have down years or somehow fail to shine as bright as usual they dont get the MVP off their names.


With Miller out essentially the entire year and with UD out as well the team had three players that weren't league min guys on the team. AND they had to completely change their games. And statistically it wasn't a bad year at all. He led the league in PER while Rose was 9th.



People really have to get off the media. Rose, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Dirk, Paul, KG, and everyone else great is a media darling. More so when they win 60+ games in spectacular fashion.


If you are suggesting that in 10-11 LeBron was a media darling you are delusional beyong all measure.



When Nash won there were head scratchers all around.

Nash gets it for a turnaround while shaq turns another team around. Dirk doesnt win...when he takes less talent than Nash had to what...59 wins? Improving his team...which Nash just left.

06?

Less.

2011 it was clear Rose would win. It isnt media love either. People act like the media screws someone and awards an MVP out of love yearly. Idiots claim it about Lebron.

Lebron won when he won because he won a hell of a lot of games and wasnt a letdown. Not media love.

Rose won because he won a hell of a lot of games and nobody saw it coming. Not media love.

Players, coaches, or fans would have voted Lebron as the winner of all 4 of his and Rose in 2011 too.

It was just...a usual MVP decision. And not a very hard one. 113 out of 121?

I dont think history will be that mad.

No 69 win Jordan getting snubbed here.

Lebron or Dwight wins it its one of the weakest MVPs in history anyway.

Nash was a far better ofensive player in both of his MVP seasons than DRose was last year.

And history already IS that mad.

[HurricaneKid]

Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.



So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.

[tpols]

So I stopped here.

How many players from 09-10 wer econtributors on the 10-11 team? The answer is 1. One player from the 09-10 team went on to play 1600 min (less than 19/gm). AND you are using raw def, rather than pace adjusted. And... well I'm just not going to argue with people whose arguments are this weak.
lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck

[DMAVS41]

Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Offensively, James is more efficient, yes.. but he wasnt asked to carry as much offensive burden as Rose was. He had the best perimeter slasher/playmaker in the league and a perrenial allstar 20/10 big man on his side. Rose had no one to relieve offensive pressure but took it opun himself to carry the load offensively in the regular season.

The points/assists part of it are almost identical. Lebron scores a bit more while Rose dishes more dimes(and to vastly inferior teammates).


The biggest knock on Lebrons offense is this...

He went 2-12 on game winning shots and passed up a whole bunch more for fear of taking them. The pressure got to him in that first year dealing with all the criticism from the decision and he was scared shitless, missing everything in the clutch.

Hard games he posted ridiculous statlines throughout, were thrown away in the waning minutes of the game with his erratic, nervous play. That resulted directly in a whole handful of losses. What do the stats matter when youre throwing games away after accumulating them?


Meanwhile, per 82games.com, Rose was the clutchest player in the league in 2011 and was what 4-4 on GWs? He was single handedly winning the Bulls games where there defense was keeping the game 65-65 but the team offense was at a halt.

Chris Paul sets teammates up and goes on an occasional scoring binge.. but he doesnt get the bulls by miami. There was no one for him to pass to.:oldlol:


Interesting statistic.. the sortable clutch stats show how many of your 4th quarter buckets are assisted or not. Here are a few superstars.,

Durant 57%
Dirk 39%
Kobe 27%
Lebron 23%



Rose 11%:roll:


He was literally carrying the team in fourth quarters completely by himself. Thats hard to replace. And CERTAINLY not something 2011 Lebron could do lol.. we have first hand evidence of the opposite.

Easier to replace Lebrons 4 extra rebounds most of which result from miamis gang defensive rebounding which another player could snatch up, or his efficiency which means nothing if hes going to throw the game away in the end anyways.

The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.

[TheNaturalWR]

1. Lebron
If you think it was unclear who Miami's best player was, you are an idiot.

2. Dwight
The best defensive player in the game who also happened to be the most efficient scorer in the paint.

Rose was given wat too much credit, the real reason that the Bulls overachieved at that season was the team defense designed and installed by a new coach.

If you think Wade and LeBron in 2011 wasn't a toss-up, you're an idiot. I'd actually lean towards Wade because of his Finals performance.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Rose was 2011 MVP, it was obvious. LeBron himself said it. Derrick had it wrapped up by like March. All this revisionist history from insecure LeBron stans. Shame on you.

[Kblaze8855]

This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.

[HurricaneKid]

I wonder if people read shit like that and are ashamed to have idiots like you on their side.

The answer is yes.

[HurricaneKid]

lol no one cares where you stopped or what you say. Youre an obvious stat nerd who gets caught up in solely using advanced measures to pass judgement as if basketball was a science experiment

I couldnt give less of a fvck

I am analytically inclined but I have played, coached, and officiated at higher levels than most people around here have seen.

And welcome to my ignore list. No shame in it. Its a long list around here.

[TonyMontana]

http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg

[TonyMontana]

Sure there is.


Before Lebron came to Miami, they were the 6th best defensive team in the league, under spo, and had a defensive rating, of 104.

After they added James they only improved to the 5th best defense in the league and went from 104... to 103.5.

A .5 difference in defensive rating and one spot up in rank. And thats with Bosh coming over too, who was a huge upgrade from their previous big men.


Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.

[SCdac]

http://oi41.tinypic.com/24evyux.jpg

Who cares about the playoffs when discussing this award? ... Dirk got royally owned in the first round of his MVP year, by lesser talent than the Heat, yet still deserved his award.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Stopped reading here.

We found a guy that started watching the NBA during the 2011 season.

Jermaine O'Neal was absolutely fantastic for Miami in the 2010 regular season(where your getting the defensive rating from), especially in regards to protecting the rim. To say Chris Bosh was "a huge upgrade" is hilarious. The Heat had 4 guys on the team from the year before (Wade,Chalmers,Haslem(who missed nearly the entire year), and James Jones). Completely different personnel for the centers and forwards(the most important positions when it comes to defense).

Study up little boy, then you can return to the big leagues.

tpols getting raped again in another debate :oldlol:

[HurricaneKid]

The gamewinning and clutch argument made here is perfectly valid.

Here is DRose's "Clutch" stats for the 10-11 season:

.402 FG%
.200 3%
47.8 pts (very nice but Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Westbrook, and KD were all >40 and <50)
10.4 Reb (wow!)
9.8 Ast
6.9 TO

The counting stats are high but the efficiency is terrible (esp with the TOs).

LeBron's "Horrible" clutch year was

.436/.238/45.1/11.2/4.9 w 3.8TO. He also led the league in FTA/clutch48 and shot 84% on them (which is really good, esp for him).

They are down but in large part because his usage was also way down as Wade was taking a LOT of the clutch shots that first year. And its probably still a comparable line to DRose's.

[zoom17]

Put up 25/8/4 and led his team to the best record in the East. How is that not MVP worthy? If not him, then who? It was debatable as to who the best player on the 2011 Heat even was, and they had an inferior record, so you can't give it to Lebron or Wade. Out west, you had Durant or Dirk maybe? I guess those guys had cases, but neither were quite as good in the regular season as Rose was imo.

I just see a lot of revisionist history from people (mainly Lebron homers). They act like it was a controversial MVP award or something, even though Rose was pretty much the consensus MVP by about March or so.

lebron cant win them every year.

[poido123]

Take Rose off the Bulls and they look like the could make the playoffs. Take LeBron off Miami and they looked like they could make the playoffs. Take Dwight off Orlando and they make the lottery bro. That's MVP shit. Because his teammates weren't that good so that makes him less valuable? I've never understood why the team record counts so much. If that's the only reason somebody can come up with though that's crazy to me.


Unfortunately for you, your brain hasn't worked out that MVP's aren't judged on that criteria.

[eurobum]

Rose will prove all the haters wrong. Can't wait.

[NumberSix]

Rose will prove all the haters wrong. Can't wait.
Deron Williams will be more relevant than Derrick Rose this upcoming season.

[Pointguard]

PER is a crap stat because people use it as an efficiency stat (when it isn't), and parts of its construction make no sense.

OWS is actually a reasonably logical box-score generated measure of total offensive contribution (the negative being that it's from a box-score), but DWS is BS as far as I'm concerned.

RAPM is an adjusted plus minus stat which is for me the best single measure of a player's contribution to his team (there is also something called XRAPM which also factors in box-score contributions but I don't think it's as good for that precise reason).

Help me out. Rose's team usually had a blow out with the starting unit on many a night and his plus minus really was really affected by this. If you think there were five players that had a better year than Rose in '11 regular season then you are bordline dementia. Chris Paul??? Really?

[poido123]

Deron Williams will be more relevant than Derrick Rose this upcoming season.


Troll harder, you're slippin'

[Pointguard]

This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.
Boozer didn't know the plays in the playoffs and missed a lot of games. Noah played well below his potential in the few games he did play. Korver's shot was garbage after the allstar break. Gibson wasn't bad but he wasn't a starter. Deng was consistent. But unbelievably stacked is a joke... Nobody in the top ten of anything. Nobody had a chance at a second team. Nobody made third team. Asik left and didn't do anything. Gibson is ok.

CP3??? I love his play and he's above good in seemingly every category. But did you look at that Clipper's team? No way does Rose play on that team and they do not have the best record in the league. Same with Westbrook's team last year as well. Their talent, skill and athletism was much much better than the Bulls and their responsibility was waay less than Rose's. The Bulls had little skill and remember Korver's shot went kaput after the allstar break. There wasn't one other creative player on the team. Deng was athletic but that was it. They were not a team of grey hounds. Had severe trouble executing out of a trap which is something they all should have learned ten years prior. Their offensive execution was incredibly basic.

[longtime lurker]

The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.

[Pointguard]

The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.

Really its crazy. If Lebron had won it that year and then had that massive melt down it would have been the most catastrophic let down in sports.

[RRR3]

The only fans that don't think Rose didn't deserve the MVP are butthurt Miami fans/Lebron stans. Since when is 25 and 8 and the best record in the league not MVP worthy? Please get Lebron's dick outta your mouths.
There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.

[NumberSix]

There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.
Rose had no case whatsoever. Melo winning in 2013 would have been less of a fcuk up.

[fpliii]

I would've went with Wade (admittedly a huge fan), Dirk, or Dwight instead, but I don't have a problem with Rose winning. I don't think he was a great pick, but he wasn't a bad one either.

TBH I'm going with Wade on the basis of his playoffs too, it's probably Dirk, Dwight, or Rose. LeBron was almost as good as Wade that season (again, playoffs as tiebreaker, so it's not applicable here) so I guess neither could've won.

[Pointguard]

Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.

I though DH had a case but Lebron killed it. Lebron had some issue with the GM or President, and went into Orlando and gave it to them hard - I forgot the stat line but it was a monster game. It had to be humiliating and the team was busted up as a result. Mid-season the insulted GM said wow, these wimps just let Lebron come into town talk about their boss and not even whisper back at him.

Then with playoff position taking shape Rose comes into town and takes more shots in the paint against Orlando than Dwight takes against them. To boot, DH gets suspended for the next game so Chicago gained two full games on Orlando in one game and took them out of the race for top seed. After March 1st DH lost ground everyday til the end of the season to every other contender - mostly due to his inability to corral his new teammates. His lack of leadership hyped Derrick Rose's most impressive leadership. While I was hyping it back then, its certainly standout among the superstars now and since then.

You can't be MVP when contenders humiliate you, get your team busted up and then you are a non-factor when it matters most. And then show no leadership when other players dis your executives and no leadership when crunch time came either. DH was an impressive player but by no means could he be taken as a key player in the league. Even with his own team he meant very little.

[longtime lurker]

There are plenty who thought D12 should have won. And he probably should have IMO.

Yes and most of those people just happen to be Lebron stans or Miami fans. And apparently D12 wasn't in the running that seriously considering he only received 3 first place votes. And his team finished with a 10th place record in the league over all. I don't see how he was more deserving than Rose.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.

I though DH had a case but Lebron killed it. Lebron had some issue with the GM or President, and went into Orlando and gave it to them hard - I forgot the stat line but it was a monster game. It had to be humiliating and the team was busted up as a result. Mid-season the insulted GM said wow, these wimps just let Lebron come into town talk about their boss and not even whisper back at him.

Then with playoff position taking shape Rose comes into town and takes more shots in the paint against Orlando than Dwight takes against them. To boot, DH gets suspended for the next game so Chicago gained two full games on Orlando in one game and took them out of the race for top seed. After March 1st DH lost ground everyday til the end of the season to every other contender - mostly due to his inability to corral his new teammates. His lack of leadership hyped Derrick Rose's most impressive leadership. While I was hyping it back then, its certainly standout among the superstars now and since then.

You can't be MVP when contenders humiliate you, get your team busted up and then you are a non-factor when it matters most. And then show no leadership when other players dis your executives and no leadership when crunch time came either. DH was an impressive player but by no means could he be taken as a key player in the league. Even with his own team he meant very little.

This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen

[Pointguard]

Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).

[HurricaneKid]

This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen

I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.

[Pointguard]

This is longest bullshit post I've ever seen
I gather you just learned how to read anyway. One day when you grow up you will know how to present your thoughts. Please refute something or the BS that fills you will pile up.

[Pointguard]

I concur. And the fact that he seems to hold D12 responsible for guarding All-NBA PGs I can see why he doesn't believe he should have won.

D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very very very clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

Please refute what I am saying.

[Scholar]

I think Rose really deserved that MVP. Then again, I also think Nash deserved those 2 MVPs he has, so I guess I don't follow popular opinion.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Another thing about Dwight and his leadership factor: When playing Sacramento the coach takes him off of DMC, a rookie, in a key game. DMC torches Orlando and the game is very close throughout. Dwight doesn't say let me guard him. Here he is the defensive player of the year, with maybe two tough guards at his position in the league, and a rookie is decimating the team and getting 26 or 28 points on Orlando.

Unless Rose got into very early foul trouble which might not have happened, he guarded every PG himself and would have told Thibes let me guard him without question. Westbrook didn't guard Rose, but Rose guarded Westbrook. There was not one PG the entire season that could say that got off on Rose. And the PG position was loaded. He outplayed them all and held them to impressive shooting percentages across the line (Nash, Rondo, Derron Williams were hit hardest).
More of dat ETHER

[Mr Exlax]

D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very very very clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Please refute what I am saying.

You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.

[Legends66NBA7]

Both Lebron and Derrick Rose had lets humiliate Dwight Howard days and I think that really affected his getting votes.

LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.

[Pointguard]

You talking about one regular season game? You giving D12 crap because of one game bro? Damn lol.

Ah hell just read your Username. NM lol.
Leadership in the middle of March is critical at every game especially when you are MVP when MVP candidate Rose and co. just finished beating Orlando team twice in practically one game. And increased their lead by six games in three weeks. Name me the one game all season long where Rose wasn't up to that task. Dwight Howard gets maybe two hard assignments ALL MONTH.

I'm giveing DH crap over letting Lebron come into his house talking about his boss. Then the DMC game and then the Bulls game where Rose scored and took more shots in the paint than him and then his lack of urgency in March and April and his dumb play of getting suspended for two games in the stretch. So about 12 games in critical March/April and the one that got his GM or President upset in January.


LeBron with that 51 point game sure, but Rose didn't humiliate Dwight.
Maybe not. But Rose took more shots in the paint than DH did. DH was frustrated, got suspended for the next game and Orlando was no longer anything that Chicago had to worry about. Maybe not humiliation, but if you are confused as to who was stepping up and who was exiting stage left, its on you. One was holding center stage and it wasn't DH.

[Owl]

1. Cherrypicking is not what you call counting every single game.

2. When I got to specific years it was because of you.

3. In the year you just mentioned....



They were on a 68 win pace with him.....

33 wins.

7 losses.

.825.

67.65 wins in 82.

You can pretend that playing at a pace equivalent of the 3rd best record of all time isnt much different from playing at a 3rd to 5th seed(depending on the year) pace.

Thats on you.

I find it rather different. Different like....being last years Heat record wise....or a little worse than Memphis?

Quite a bit larger than the difference between wins with and without a lot of MVPs. Id estimate...10-12 wins is a usual dropoff. Wilts 76ers....won 57. Jordans Bulls 55. Kareems bucks swapped him for a good 4 and won the same number of games. Oscars team I think was about the same. Rick Barry left and his team won I think 50-55 when he went to the ABA. Birds Celtics maybe from 55 to 42 is close? Great players dont tend to make as much of an impact on wins as one might assume.

Not on really good teams.
10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.


This. Replace Rose with Brandon Jennings and the Bulls are just as good.

When you look at guys like Deng, Noah, Asik, Korver, Gibson, Boozer and so on, its almost unbelievable how stacked that roster was with nothing but quality players. Replace Rose and put a CP3 on that roster, that's a chip.


I'm yet to hear a single argument other than team success for rose to deserve MVP.
I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).

[NumberSix]

10-12 wins difference from an MVP player? Really?

Just take the rookie arrival of Chamberlain, Baylor, Robertson, Robinson, Jabbar, Bird, Duncan (slight cheat here with Robinson returning from injury).

Look at the drop off after the retirement of Magic, Robertson, Jordan ('98).

Look at what every metric estimates. The "strong" MVPs (i.e. those who actually are the best player, not best player on good/surprising team or "we're tiding of giving it to X so why not give it to ...") e.g. LeBron 2010 (his weakest MVP year stats wise) Hollinger EWA gives him 30.5 on the loose end, Win Shares gives him 18.5 on the mean end of the spectrum, Pelton WARP gave him 25.4 wins above that which a replacement level player would give).

The dropoffs cited are after trades in which whilst certainly not recieving equal value teams got multiple pieces, some quality ones. In Robertson's case they lost 3 more games but had Norm Van Lier and Tiny Archibald instead at the pg spot.

The non trade ones are Barry (not an MVP), and Jordan which is an odd one. A combination of the arrival of Kukoc, growth of Pippen (and Pippen being fresh after a significant down year following the Olympics), Horace Grant playing for a contract, an amazing coach doing a great job and the Bulls not really being as good as their record (their MoV accounting for their schedule should have won them 50 games).

Anyhow if you don't mind MVP being a good player on a good team/surprising team, or player who has high contextual value (rubbish backup, nobody else provides their specific skill or whatever) then Rose, like Unseld, Iverson, Cowens et al, is fine.

Personally I don't like it when it doesn't go to the best player, especially when the idea that they'd trade players (straight up, not looking long term or at injuries) before, during and after the season are all laughable.

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.


I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).
I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.

[Owl]

I think you misunderstand. I don't mean Jennings from 2011. I mean current brandon Jennings. Current Jennings is no worse than 2011 rose.
I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?

[NumberSix]

I did misinterpret. Come on though. Even current Jennings. "No worse than Rose"? Really?
What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?

[HurricaneKid]

D12 was suppose to hold a rookie center - that was made very very very clear. Rose guarded a much more talented group of offensive minded guards than DH guarded centers - where not one center was polished offensively. And when he does get one, a rookie at that, he doesn't have the leadership to say I got this. Rose fully respected Thibes but it wasn't going to go down like that.

Aren't you the guy that said Rose was the 8th best defensive player on the team??? Rose was the best backcourt defender on the team. The team was top three in perimeter defense. No elite opposing PG came off on Chicago the whole year. It doesn't get anymore thorough than that. I know I can't think of any SG much less a PG that held a healthy Wade like Rose did. So to say Rose wasn't a key part of their defense is major crap. Third leading PG in rebounds too. Which is higher than Noah and Boozer at their positions. Rose was definitely first or second among PG in blocks as well. Nobody else on the team was ranked among the top in their position. Name me somebody else at their position that held down the elite like Rose did at PG that year? DH didn't even take the assignment.

Please refute what I am saying.


Well that will be easy enough.

DRose was a TERRIBLE defender for the Bulls in his MVP season. My ANY metric. Lets look at the most popular ones:

DRTG (my least favorite def metric). Rose was not only not in the top 8 defenders on the team he was next to last in DRTG on the team (of anyone that played 30min+ for the season). Only Kyle Korver (who was sent packing despite his league best shooting because of his porous defense) ranked worse.

On/Off (Far better). With the league "MVP" on the floor the Bulls allowed 103.0 points/48 min. With DRose on the bench the Bulls stiffened to 95.3. That is an ENORMOUS chasm.

RAPM (Best). DRose's offense by this metric was VERY good and among the top 9 in the league. However, his defense dropped him all the way to #32 in the league. This is nowhere near any MVP since RAPM figures are available. At least Nash was at least the #1 RAPM OFF player when he was winning his MVPs (his D was terrible too). The difference, for example, between Deng's RAPM defense and DRose's is literally more than the complete benefit of Kobe Bryant PLUS David West added to a team.

The last argument that keeps getting made is that Rose did more with less. Its makes no sense. They had Asik, the best rebounder in the NBA playing 15mpg because they were so stacked. In fact, in the ~19 games worth of court time without Rose on the floor the Bulls played to +5.1pts/48 of their opponents. Extrapolated to a full season that would make them ~5th best team in the NBA. Meanwhile, with LeBron off the floor the Heat were actually OUTSCORED.

And you have no basic comprehension of HOW D12's defensive effectiveness works. I wouldn't speak to it any more.

[Owl]

What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?
The thing is I've established I agree with a lot of their percieved overachievement comes from the things mentioned (elite D, Thibs).

But what does Jennings do better? Shoot 3s. Numerically you could argue turn the ball over less though when you account for usage they're near enough the same.

What does he do worse? Shoot 2 pointers, finish at the rim, draw fouls, shoot free throws (all of which make Rose an efficient scorer, Jennings merely an okayish one). Volume of scoring (this is big and when combined with efficiency very big). Pass. Avoid fouls. Rebound. Defend.

Even where the advantages are little ones, they all add up.

Whatever you think of his MVP, Rose was a top 10 player. Jennings probably isn't a top 50 one.

cf: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=jennibr01&y1=2013&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

[HurricaneKid]

What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?


I would probably that Jennings is one of the 3 worst PGs in the NBA (that aren't developing on rookie deals).

Just stop this. You ruin any credibility my side, the correct side, has.

[Owl]

I would probably that Jennings is one of the 3 worst PGs in the NBA (that aren't developing on rookie deals).

Just stop this. You ruin any credibility my side, the correct side, has.
Starting?

[HurricaneKid]

Starting?

Yes. I swear I put that word in there.

[Nastradamus]

MVP, value is in the damn name. There is no way that Derrick Rose contributes more value towards a team winning basketball games than LBJ does. All you have to do is watch basketball to know that. He's a better scorer, defender and playmaker than Rose. He gives you similar assists as a damn SF.

Its as simple as this. The Bulls are not worse with Lebron on their team instead of Rose and the Bulls are not worse with Lebron instead of Rose, position be damned.

[longtime lurker]

What's so much better about Rose than current Jennings? Seriously? Other than being on a better team, what?

Put current Jennings on that stacked bulls roster with elite defense, elite rebounding, elite team passing, COTY, ETC... You honestly don't think he could manage to shoot 44% and dish out 7.7 assists?

This is some high quality trolling right here.

[KyrieTheFuture]

I gather you just learned how to read anyway. One day when you grow up you will know how to present your thoughts. Please refute something or the BS that fills you will pile up.
I don't think you understand that typing long paragraphs doesn't make what you have to say any more legitimate. Length =/= legitimacy. I can see that you're biased towards Rose, that's fine, but you don't need to make overzealous attempts to discredit Dwight. You should be able to prove Roses legitimacy with his play, you shouldn't have to criticize others his play should do the talking.

[Legends66NBA7]

Jennings isn't even better than Kyle Lowry.

Lowry > Rose too ? :rolleyes:

[NumberSix]

Mike Lowry > Rose too ? :rolleyes:
Yes:bowdown:

[Pointguard]

I don't think you understand that typing long paragraphs doesn't make what you have to say any more legitimate. Length =/= legitimacy. I can see that you're biased towards Rose, that's fine, but you don't need to make overzealous attempts to discredit Dwight. You should be able to prove Roses legitimacy with his play, you shouldn't have to criticize others his play should do the talking.

The paragraph was a descriptor of DH's shortcomings, which is relevant to the discussion. If the paragraph is long, then you have more opportunities to prove me wrong. That's fair. Its overzealous when proven to be something it isn't. I invite all to take it apart. Until then its long and strong.

The Rose haters aren't new as who was one of the best PG rebounders, block shot PG's, the only player top ten in assist and ppg, who was the best penetrator in the league, who was the top scorer in close games in the fourth quarter, whose team overachieved, whose team had a lot of things to overcome and still had the most wins, whose team dominated the elite, whose team had one creative player, which elite team had one player that carried the offensive burden moreso than the other teams, who consistently held the elite at his position below par, the one star in the league that came to play every game without taking off, the only player on an elite team that didn't have a top notch player in some category. So they create theories that ignore all of that.

Who is being overzealous?

[Pointguard]

Well that will be easy enough.

DRose was a TERRIBLE defender for the Bulls in his MVP season. My ANY metric. Lets look at the most popular ones:

DRTG (my least favorite def metric). Rose was not only not in the top 8 defenders on the team he was next to last in DRTG on the team (of anyone that played 30min+ for the season). Only Kyle Korver (who was sent packing despite his league best shooting because of his porous defense) ranked worse.

On/Off (Far better). With the league "MVP" on the floor the Bulls allowed 103.0 points/48 min. With DRose on the bench the Bulls stiffened to 95.3. That is an ENORMOUS chasm.

RAPM (Best). DRose's offense by this metric was VERY good and among the top 9 in the league. However, his defense dropped him all the way to #32 in the league. This is nowhere near any MVP since RAPM figures are available. At least Nash was at least the #1 RAPM OFF player when he was winning his MVPs (his D was terrible too). The difference, for example, between Deng's RAPM defense and DRose's is literally more than the complete benefit of Kobe Bryant PLUS David West added to a team.

The last argument that keeps getting made is that Rose did more with less. Its makes no sense. They had Asik, the best rebounder in the NBA playing 15mpg because they were so stacked. In fact, in the ~19 games worth of court time without Rose on the floor the Bulls played to +5.1pts/48 of their opponents. Extrapolated to a full season that would make them ~5th best team in the NBA. Meanwhile, with LeBron off the floor the Heat were actually OUTSCORED.

And you have no basic comprehension of HOW D12's defensive effectiveness works. I wouldn't speak to it any more.

WOW, you really don't know how things work.

A. Rose is the teams main offensive player. When he is not on the floor, the team has to shut down the other team to compete. Its absolutely critical. Because Rose was depended upon more so for creativity than any other superstar for their teams (Dirk, DH, Wade, Lebron, Kobe). This is a huge argument for Rose as MVP as well.

B. But to suggest that the Bulls second team was better defensively is to miss and incredibly humongous METRIC. They are defending second teamers and not first teamers! Rose shutting down Rondo, Dwill, Nash, Jennings, Tyreke, Parker, CP3 and we are comparing that to CJ Watkins holding down bench players is not only absurd, it misses common sense at the most obvious levels.

C. You also miss the fact that Thibes put Rose on Wade in the playoffs in the fourth quarter above all other guards. Please show me the metric that shows a SG that held a healthy Wade down in the playoffs like Rose did. Here is a team that has two players at SG whose main function is defense but Thibes, a defensive genuis, takes Rose off of his natural position to guard Wade.

D. You think Chicago was a top perimeter defensive team because of it's bench play of 14 minutes a game?

E. Stats just ain't were its at. Something is very, very wrong with the metric.

[Pointguard]

Rose was a very good player that year. He just wasn't at the level I associate with MVP or playing as well James, Wade, Howard our Paul.

I'd agree with what DMavs posted. But come on. Not Jennings. Paul and they'd be better, Westbrook maybe just as good shot creating pgs and they'd get most of the value they got from Rose. But they wouldn't lose nothing by putting in a middling pg like Jennings was (and to a degree still is).
How does Paul fit in the MVP mix in 2011???

Paul had a better team last year than Rose had in 2011 and he was way better than he was in 2011. That Clipper team is way more skilled, more of a veteran team, way more athletic, way more creative, better shooters, better players off of the dribble, less injuries, more consistency, more scoring options... .

No way does Rose play on OKC or the Clippers last year and they don't have the best record in the league. I think a lot of people don't understand how his insistent play and leadership was key to why super teams (James/Wade), veteran teams, healthy teams, long time together teams didn't have a better record than a young team, with a new coach, new system, new system that was very reliant on Rose taking over the offense, injuries and other hurdles had the best record.

On a day to day basis Rose came to play every day the team accomplished more than much more fortunate players, and Rose had more on his plate than anybody as well. DH was close.

[pmj]

My argument is that you don't give it to someone in their first elite year. It's a damn shame that Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq, Kobe, etc. maybe he will turn out as good as them and maybe not, but hes got a long way to go. The list of MVPs is pretty freaking elite and minus Rose and Nash winning two.

[NumberSix]

My argument is that you don't give it to someone in their first elite year. It's a damn shame that Rose has as many MVPs as Shaq, Kobe, etc. maybe he will turn out as good as them and maybe not, but hes got a long way to go. The list of MVPs is pretty freaking elite and minus Rose and Nash winning two.
I can't ride with that. If a player was the best player that year, I don't care how many years he's been in the league.

[KyrieTheFuture]

The paragraph was a descriptor of DH's shortcomings, which is relevant to the discussion. If the paragraph is long, then you have more opportunities to prove me wrong. That's fair. Its overzealous when proven to be something it isn't. I invite all to take it apart. Until then its long and strong.

The Rose haters aren't new as who was one of the best PG rebounders, block shot PG's, the only player top ten in assist and ppg, who was the best penetrator in the league, who was the top scorer in close games in the fourth quarter, whose team overachieved, whose team had a lot of things to overcome and still had the most wins, whose team dominated the elite, whose team had one creative player, which elite team had one player that carried the offensive burden moreso than the other teams, who consistently held the elite at his position below par, the one star in the league that came to play every game without taking off, the only player on an elite team that didn't have a top notch player in some category. So they create theories that ignore all of that.

Who is being overzealous?

Idk how you dont think you're being overenthusiastic in this thread.

Some of the bolded is irrelevant to the MVP it only makes him the best PG. The rest has to do with his team, specifically it's great D that Rose wasn't exactly a part of. All I'm saying is Dwight didn't have the benefit of great team D, he was the defense. Also, he was double or triple teamed all the time no matter what and he still dominated. I just think the MVP should include both sides of the court.

Edit: If it makes a difference, I think the gap between them is negligible and that he's a strong number two candidate with no else really close

[Owl]

How does Paul fit in the MVP mix in 2011???

Paul had a better team last year than Rose had in 2011 and he was way better than he was in 2011. That Clipper team is way more skilled, more of a veteran team, way more athletic, way more creative, better shooters, better players off of the dribble, less injuries, more consistency, more scoring options... .

No way does Rose play on OKC or the Clippers last year and they don't have the best record in the league. I think a lot of people don't understand how his insistent play and leadership was key to why super teams (James/Wade), veteran teams, healthy teams, long time together teams didn't have a better record than a young team, with a new coach, new system, new system that was very reliant on Rose taking over the offense, injuries and other hurdles had the best record.

On a day to day basis Rose came to play every day the team accomplished more than much more fortunate players, and Rose had more on his plate than anybody as well. DH was close.
1) Where is it said Paul should be MVP? Nowhere, only that he was better than Rose.

2) Why switch years for Paul its irrelevent? You do it so you can frame the Clippers as a superteam using hearsay and vague, unproven or irrelvent statements (Clippers were "more athletic" but their superathletic bigs can't defend and DeAndre's court IQ is so low that his athleticism is largely wasted). The comparison of supporting casts is vague and imprecise but if you want to do it at least compare it for that year. Paul dragged 70 games of David West, 72 of Okafor and whole bag of nothing into the playoffs.
Or we could do it more precisely. And even those metrics which favour usage (PER) suggest Paul was better. And most metrics can't factor in Paul's edge at the defensive end.

3) You're framing Thibideau as a negative for Rose? This terrible "new coach" forcing his "new system" on him. Poor Derrick Rose.

4) If you want to credit the Bull's wins to "insistent play and leadership" fine. I'll go with their having the league's best defense.

As before if you're criteria for MVP isn't being the league's best player I don't mind it going to Rose. To me, because he wasn't the best player, he wasn't MVP.

[pauk]

He deserved it that year, happened to be the best player in his team which had the best record... he was my pick for MVP, but i just think he got perhaps a bit to much credit for what was happening with the Bulls that year, he played a big part but the key to their success was defense, they won mostly because of their defense (and they still do) and Rose didnt have much to do at that end of the court...

[nathanjizzle]

He deserved it that year, happened to be the best player in his team which had the best record... he was my pick for MVP, but i just think he got perhaps a bit to much credit for what was happening with the Bulls that year, he played a big part but the key to their success was defense, they won mostly because of their defense (and they still do) and Rose didnt have much to do at that end of the court...

point guards have the least role on team defense. individual defense, rose is pretty good.
the bulls are not really "winning" without rose. sure they are above average team, they have above average players and above average coach, but they are not even contenders to make it to the ecf without rose. i dont consider that "winning". even look at these stats on how derrick rose transforms the team.

the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.

2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7

2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6


2012-2013 (no rose , havent been updated for a few games)
5-12

[Pointguard]

Idk how you dont think you're being overenthusiastic in this thread.

Some of the bolded is irrelevant to the MVP it only makes him the best PG. The rest has to do with his team, specifically it's great D that Rose wasn't exactly a part of. All I'm saying is Dwight didn't have the benefit of great team D, he was the defense. Also, he was double or triple teamed all the time no matter what and he still dominated. I just think the MVP should include both sides of the court.

Edit: If it makes a difference, I think the gap between them is negligible and that he's a strong number two candidate with no else really close
Dwight had a team that stayed within 2 games of first place til march. He had a team built around him. Then the Lebron reality happened, and management correctly figured this team didn't have enough guts. It was reflective of their leader and DH has had severe leadership issues for the last three years.

When I talk about Rose accomplishments above and his defensive impact you are acting like you don't get it. One of the best perimeter defenses, him being the best back court defender on the team, him shutting down Wade, top shot blocker among guards, him shutting down the elite at his position the whole year! The whole Rose lacked defense thing was crap.

If I do a short post you would never understand.

[Pointguard]

1) Where is it said Paul should be MVP? Nowhere, only that he was better than Rose.

In 2011? In what imaginable way?



2) Why switch years for Paul its irrelevent? You do it so you can frame the Clippers as a superteam using hearsay and vague, unproven or irrelvent statements (Clippers were "more athletic" but their superathletic bigs can't defend and DeAndre's court IQ is so low that his athleticism is largely wasted). The comparison of supporting casts is vague and imprecise but if you want to do it at least compare it for that year. Paul dragged 70 games of David West, 72 of Okafor and whole bag of nothing into the playoffs.
Or we could do it more precisely. And even those metrics which favour usage (PER) suggest Paul was better. And most metrics can't factor in Paul's edge at the defensive end.
Before cp's arrival Dj was considered a top center prospect with great instincts. BG was considered the top prospect at power forward period. Last year was a catastrophe. I never heard anything about DJs IQ being low before last year.




3) You're framing Thibideau as a negative for Rose? This terrible "new coach" forcing his "new system" on him. Poor Derrick Rose.
Please see what new system did for Lebron, Wade, Kobe, DH, Nash, Paul, Mello and then you might understand what I'm saying.



4) If you want to credit the Bull's wins to "insistent play and leadership" fine. I'll go with their having the league's best defense.
Miami and the Bucks had great defenses that year. Miami also had two great offensive players that year...

[nathanjizzle]

Then question the award system, not the player who was awarded MVP.

why do you even debate this guy? hes an idiot.

[HurricaneKid]

WOW, you really don't know how things work.

A. Rose is the teams main offensive player. When he is not on the floor, the team has to shut down the other team to compete. Its absolutely critical. Because Rose was depended upon more so for creativity than any other superstar for their teams (Dirk, DH, Wade, Lebron, Kobe). This is a huge argument for Rose as MVP as well.

B. But to suggest that the Bulls second team was better defensively is to miss and incredibly humongous METRIC. They are defending second teamers and not first teamers! Rose shutting down Rondo, Dwill, Nash, Jennings, Tyreke, Parker, CP3 and we are comparing that to CJ Watkins holding down bench players is not only absurd, it misses common sense at the most obvious levels.

C. You also miss the fact that Thibes put Rose on Wade in the playoffs in the fourth quarter above all other guards. Please show me the metric that shows a SG that held a healthy Wade down in the playoffs like Rose did. Here is a team that has two players at SG whose main function is defense but Thibes, a defensive genuis, takes Rose off of his natural position to guard Wade.

D. You think Chicago was a top perimeter defensive team because of it's bench play of 14 minutes a game?

E. Stats just ain't were its at. Something is very, very wrong with the metric.

I am embarrassed to have crafted such a time consuming response to a 7th graders post.

[HurricaneKid]

2012-2013 (no rose , havent been updated for a few games)
5-12

Hasn't been updated indeed. They were a second round team after a mountain of injuries, going well beyond DRose's

[Pointguard]

I am embarrassed to have crafted such a time consuming response to a 7th graders post.
Ugh you quoted my post.

You erroneously used a metric to measure the teams defense when Rose sat down and CJ Watkins came in. Nothing wrong with the metric: you just made a very big oversight. Holding Rondo to five points in 38 minutes is much more impressive than holding John Doe to no points in 12 no matter how you slice it. If it takes a 7th grader or Buddha to tell you it doesn't matter. You didn't fool anybody. You made a mistake, we all do it.

[Dionysus]

Lebrons award. Derrick Rose shouldn't even finished in top 5.:oldlol:

[nathanjizzle]

Hasn't been updated indeed. They were a second round team after a mountain of injuries, going well beyond DRose's

actually, there were only like 3 more games after that and i think it was 2-1 so it would have been 7-13. which is still ridiculous compared to 14-7 with rose. so "indeed", rose makes the bulls a contender and without rose they are not winning anything.

[nathanjizzle]

Lebrons award. Derrick Rose shouldn't even finished in top 5.:oldlol:

nobody has answered me yet, how do you win an mvp when your team has a losing record against elite teams.:confusedshrug:

[Dionysus]

nobody has answered me yet, how do you win an mvp when your team has a losing record against elite teams.:confusedshrug:

LeBron superior numbers vs Rose low iq numbers

LeBron was the best player, the better player, the superior. LeBron also was the sole reason the Heat was good. Also who led the league in Win Shares? Yup you guessed it, LeBron King James.

[nathanjizzle]

LeBron superior numbers vs Rose low iq numbers

LeBron was the best player, the better player, the superior. LeBron also was the sole reason the Heat was good. Also who led the league in Win Shares? Yup you guessed it, LeBron King James.

superior numbers like rose winning 14-7 against the top 8 teams in the league and lebron winning 7-11. rose even won there last 12 straight. while lebron lost most of the last 9. yea reread that.

rose even scoring more with 28 points. i dont even take you idiots seriously anymore. i mean your clearly not even here to discuss basketball when you start off your statement "roses low iq basketball"

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3483640/lebron-passes-again-o.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3483635/derrick-rose-sixers-o.gif
but but lebron is more efficient because haslem has a greater chance to make that shot than he would.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It's hilarious when people use team stats to prop up one player. ****ing idiots.

[nathanjizzle]

It's hilarious when people use team stats to prop up one player. ****ing idiots.

i understand why you would think so when you are a kyrie fan:roll:

[NumberSix]

superior numbers like rose winning 14-7 against the top 8 teams in the league and lebron winning 7-11. rose even won there last 12 straight. while lebron lost most of the last 9. yea reread that.

rose even scoring more with 28 points. i dont even take you idiots seriously anymore. i mean your clearly not even here to discuss basketball when you start off your statement "roses low iq basketball"

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3483640/lebron-passes-again-o.gif
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3483635/derrick-rose-sixers-o.gif
but but lebron is more efficient because haslem has a greater chance to make that shot than he would.
This phaggit still has nothing but what the teams did, not the players. :roll:

Rose didn't go 14-7 fcuk face, the bulls did.

[SCdac]

Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season :applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ

week before that he dropped 36 on the Raptors, including some sick blocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcUnnz5k6SE

30+ on the 76ers, Bucks, and Hawks around the same time. 42 points on the Pacers in a loss.

Dude had a great season. His defense has been denigrated so much in this thread, I'd say it's actually becoming underrated. Not to mention being the only player who finished top-10 in both points and assists. Scored a solid 25% of his teams total regular season points and dished 34% of his teams total assists.

[nathanjizzle]

This phaggit still has nothing but what the teams did, not the players. :roll:

Rose didn't go 14-7 fcuk face, the bulls did.

so the bulls without d rose went 7-13. :roll: rose did score 28 points and 7 assists.:roll:

12 straight as the leader. lebron was losing as the leader, but he earned it over rose? keep trying.

btw, d rose scored more clutch points than lebron, with only being assisted 12% of the time, and lebron being assisted twice as much. rose dished out alot more clutch assists than lebron did, and had a better winning percentage in the end. deal with it.

btw, just stop talking if you think brandon jennings is as good as rose. im surprised the "dumbest things said on ish" hasnt been bumped yet when you stated that.

[NumberSix]

Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season :applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ

week before that he dropped 36 on the Raptors, including some sick blocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcUnnz5k6SE

30+ on the 76ers, Bucks, and Hawks around the same time. 42 points on the Pacers in a loss.

Dude had a great season. His defense has been denigrated so much in this thread, I'd say it's actually becoming underrated. Not to mention being the only player who finished top-10 in both points and assists. Scored a solid 25% of his teams total regular season points and dished 34% of his teams total assists.
It's true. Rose is actually underrated defensively. 1 of the better PGs in that regard.

[KyrieTheFuture]

i understand why you would think so when you are a kyrie fan:roll:
Ah can't argue with me because you know I'm right so you make fun of my favorite player. I don't think I need to point out how irrelevant Kyrie is to this discussion but I don't think you know what that means because every reason you've posted as to why Rose deserved it over lebron (which I'm not even arguing I agree that he did) has been irrelevant. Then again you people think Rose is responsible for your defensive success when in reality he's barely better at Kyrie at defense and that's only because he's more athletic.

[NumberSix]

so the bulls without d rose went 7-13. :roll: rose did score 28 points and 7 assists.:roll:

12 straight as the leader. lebron was losing as the leader, but he earned it over rose? keep trying.
Give me 1 reason outside of team success why Rose was the MVP.

It's an individual award. Not a team award. Most valuable player, not most valuable team.

[nathanjizzle]

Give me 1 reason outside of team success why Rose was the MVP.

It's an individual award. Not a team award. Most valuable player, not most valuable team.

are you actually sitting here saying theres not 1 reason rose should have won the mvp, are you that delusional and misinformed? ive already made few points in the previous posts if you could read them without your stan glasses on.

and if leading your team to winning games doesnt dictate you as a great player then. :hammerhead:

mr brandon jennings = derrick rose. :facepalm how stupid just get off the forums.

[NumberSix]

are you actually sitting here saying theres not 1 reason rose should have won the mvp, are you that delusional and misinformed? ive already made few points in the previous posts if you could read them without your stan glasses on.

and if leading your team to winning games doesnt dictate you as a great player then. :hammerhead:

mr brandon jennings = derrick rose. :facepalm how stupid just get off the forums.
Yes, I am. Go ahead and tell me 1. Not team success. Why as an individual player, he was the most valuable. G'head.

[Le Shaqtus]

Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season :applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ

The Bulls barely beat us that game and we didn't even have Howard, and we had Jameer on Rose, if Rose didn't score 30+ on him I'd have been disappointed. Not that impressive.

[nathanjizzle]

Ah can't argue with me because you know I'm right so you make fun of my favorite player. I don't think I need to point out how irrelevant Kyrie is to this discussion but I don't think you know what that means because every reason you've posted as to why Rose deserved it over lebron (which I'm not even arguing I agree that he did) has been irrelevant. Then again you people think Rose is responsible for your defensive success when in reality he's barely better at Kyrie at defense and that's only because he's more athletic.

why would i debate your statement? i guess lebron doesnt deserve credit for miami heat winning games. :roll: theory debunked.

you clearly hate it though since you are a kyrie fan, and he cant lead his team to victory for shit.

[nathanjizzle]

Yes, I am. Go ahead and tell me 1. Not team success. Why as an individual player, he was the most valuable. G'head.

okay, ill qoute it for you since you cant read with your stan glasses on :lol


d rose scored more clutch points than lebron, with only being assisted 12% of the time, and lebron being assisted twice as much. rose dished out alot more clutch assists than lebron did, and had a better winning percentage in the end. deal with it.


rose scored 28 points and 7 assists againt the top 8 teams in the league.

^the highest out of any player in the league matter of fact. but you cant count team wins because rose has nothing to do with those. the idiocy on this thread:roll: "use stats but only the stats that i like"

[NumberSix]

okay, ill qoute it for you since you cant read with your stan glasses
Ok, you're saying Rose is more clutch than Lerbon...... And? How does being more "clutch" than LeBron make you the most valuable player of the entire league? It's not like Rose was the only player more clutch than LeBron. Melo is more clutch too. Why not give him the 2011 MVP? If that is your sole criteria.

[nathanjizzle]

Originally Posted by SCdac
Rose dropping 39 points , shitting all over the Magic at the end of the season

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fPfoaloEzQ

if you fastforward to 3:40 mark you can hear 2 guys that actually know basketball tell you why d rose would be there pick for mvp.

[Legends66NBA7]

He deserved it that year, happened to be the best player in his team which had the best record... he was my pick for MVP

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5893105&postcount=113

[nathanjizzle]

Ok, you're saying Rose is more clutch than Lerbon...... And? How does being more "clutch" than LeBron make you the most valuable player of the entire league? It's not like Rose was the only player more clutch than LeBron. Melo is more clutch too. Why not give him the 2011 MVP? If that is your sole criteria.

you are either really dumb, or you are trolling. you asked for one reason and i gave you 2. now you dont like it? :roll:

[Legends66NBA7]

It's hilarious when people use team stats to prop up one player. ****ing idiots.

Not just propping up, but people have used it to put down other players too.

[WolfGang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypCGdhGxNjk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

D Rose was nasty. Will he ever be this good again?

[NumberSix]

you are either really dumb, or you are trolling. you asked for one reason and i gave you 2. now you dont like it? :roll:
That's not a reason though. Being more clutch than LeBron doesn't make you the MVP of the league. Especially when multiple players can make the exact same claim.

If "clutch" is your only criteria for MVP, why would you even give it to Rose of all people? Just because he's more clutch than LeBron? So what? So are other players. Some of the other players were more clutch tha Rose too. Why not just give it to the player who the the most clutch?


Got news for you, it's not even true that rose was more clutch than LeBron. Lets just assume it is though, even though LeBron shot more than 3% better than rose did in clutch situations. Lets pretend rose was more clutch than LeBron. :rolleyes:

Kobe had the exact same FG% as Rose in the clutch, but he also scored 2 more points per 48 in the clutch. If being clutch is your only criteria, why the fcuk should rose be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race?

[Dionysus]

2011 should have been the first time in NBA History they gave a MVP award to a whole Team. Bulls Team did more than just Rose. Rose just shot jacked to look like a leader. Can't even beat the true MVP, LeBron.:oldlol:

[Le Shaqtus]

2011 should have been the first time in NBA History they gave a MVP award to a whole Team. Bulls Team did more than just Rose. Rose just shot jacked to look like a leader. Can't even beat the true MVP, LeBron.:oldlol:

You're a disgrace to all Brits :facepalm

[jzek]

a) That was the year the media was making LeBron pay for 'taking his talents to South Beach'

b) He has won the previous two years and the media was tired of giving it to the same guy every year (see: Jordan)

[nathanjizzle]

That's not a reason though. Being more clutch than LeBron doesn't make you the MVP of the league. Especially when multiple players can make the exact same claim.

If "clutch" is your only criteria for MVP, why would you even give it to Rose of all people? Just because he's more clutch than LeBron? So what? So are other players. Some of the other players were more clutch tha Rose too. Why not just give it to the player who the the most clutch?


Got news for you, it's not even true that rose was more clutch than LeBron. Lets just assume it is though, even though LeBron shot more than 3% better than rose did in clutch situations. Lets pretend rose was more clutch than LeBron. :rolleyes:

Kobe had the exact same FG% as Rose in the clutch, but he also scored 2 more points per 48 in the clutch. If being clutch is your only criteria, why the fcuk should rose be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race?

didnt read. anybody that thinks jennings = rose is either really dumb or trolling. actually i will read.

[nathanjizzle]

That's not a reason though. Being more clutch than LeBron doesn't make you the MVP of the league. Especially when multiple players can make the exact same claim.

If "clutch" is your only criteria for MVP, why would you even give it to Rose of all people? Just because he's more clutch than LeBron? So what? So are other players. Some of the other players were more clutch tha Rose too. Why not just give it to the player who the the most clutch?


Got news for you, it's not even true that rose was more clutch than LeBron. Lets just assume it is though, even though LeBron shot more than 3% better than rose did in clutch situations. Lets pretend rose was more clutch than LeBron. :rolleyes:

Kobe had the exact same FG% as Rose in the clutch, but he also scored 2 more points per 48 in the clutch. If being clutch is your only criteria, why the fcuk should rose be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race?

so youre asking me for 1 reason why he deserved the mvp and expect 1 criteria to satisfy that? :roll: do you see how dumb you are, there is not 1 criteria in basketball that determines an mvp but thats your whole argument?
again idiot, i never said being clutch was the one determining factor, thats the one point i made when you asked me to give you one point. :lol
check the win percentage between rose and lebron in clutch games. :roll:
but but but lebron is efficient but doesnt have a winning record in clutch games. but but but winning games doesnt matter. check derrick roses assist vs lebrons in clutch. even check derrick roses rebounds in the clutch vs lebrons HAHAHAHA

[zoom17]

a) That was the year the media was making LeBron pay for 'taking his talents to South Beach'

b) He has won the previous two years and the media was tired of giving it to the same guy every year (see: Jordan)

Who cares Rose won it Lebron cant win it year year just like jordan couldnt win it year year

[HurricaneKid]

actually, there were only like 3 more games after that and i think it was 2-1 so it would have been 7-13. which is still ridiculous compared to 14-7 with rose. so "indeed", rose makes the bulls a contender and without rose they are not winning anything.

Regular season games are regular season games and only in the playoffs do elite matchups matter. Period. If you want to cherry pick to that degree I can say with Rose the Bulls were complacent and actually had a worse record against lesser teams.

Without Rose this team still wins playoff series. Without Rose that season they were still +5.1 PTs / 48 min. That would drop them into a virtual tie with Boston for the 2 seed in the East. Without D12 Orlando was -5.4 PTs / 48 which pushes them to #25 in the NBA. In fact without him on the floor Orl gave up 52% FG. And without LeBron Miami was -.1 PTs / 48. Which means they Would have dropped to ~8 seed.

And these are NOT small sample sizes. Each of them has about a 30 game college seasons worth of data.

[KyrieTheFuture]

why would i debate your statement? i guess lebron doesnt deserve credit for miami heat winning games. :roll: theory debunked.

you clearly hate it though since you are a kyrie fan, and he cant lead his team to victory for shit.

Where did I say I'm not giving him credit? I already told you I think rose was number two that year by barely anything he played great. I just think Dwight was better but the two of them were way ahead of the rest

[Pointguard]

That's not a reason though. Being more clutch than LeBron doesn't make you the MVP of the league. Especially when multiple players can make the exact same claim.

If "clutch" is your only criteria for MVP, why would you even give it to Rose of all people? Just because he's more clutch than LeBron? So what? So are other players. Some of the other players were more clutch tha Rose too. Why not just give it to the player who the the most clutch?

Got news for you, it's not even true that rose was more clutch than LeBron. Lets just assume it is though, even though LeBron shot more than 3% better than rose did in clutch situations. Lets pretend rose was more clutch than LeBron. :rolleyes:

Kobe had the exact same FG% as Rose in the clutch, but he also scored 2 more points per 48 in the clutch. If being clutch is your only criteria, why the fcuk should rose be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race?
Somethings are results oriented. You play to win the game. If you think Kobe or Lebron were as productive in clutch situations that year you have totally lost it. And then when it came to elite teams the separation got a whole lot bigger. Against the better teams would you say Lebron was a difference maker that year? They lost frequently. Was there not confusion as to who was the leader that year when better teams came at Miami? Not a knock on Lebron but it was still Wade's team and they got in each others way a bit too much.

What player had other coaches talking about their leadership? What star player had more responsibility than Rose? Durant might be the league's greatest scorer ever. When Westbrook went out his game suffered tremendously. Rose played with that type of attention for 81 games. Thibes spent 2 hours of practice on defense and shooting and a half hour on offense. Rose had to improvise a lot of the time. Rarely was there a big game from another offensive player, yet Rose was 3 ppg away from Durant for the scoring lead. Rose was the only scorer getting a lot of assist when he didn't really have finishers or consistent shooters. Lebron had one of the games best scorers helping him out for 70 plus games. Rose didn't know who was going to help him out from night to night.

Just too big a difference when a defense just keys in on one player vs having another unstoppable scorer on your team. Kobe, Wade, Lebron and DH have consistent, skilled scoring threats on their team while the Bulls didn't know who was going to be the secondary threat.

[Pointguard]

That's not a reason though. Being more clutch than LeBron doesn't make you the MVP of the league. Especially when multiple players can make the exact same claim.

If "clutch" is your only criteria for MVP, why would you even give it to Rose of all people? Just because he's more clutch than LeBron? So what? So are other players. Some of the other players were more clutch tha Rose too. Why not just give it to the player who the the most clutch?


Got news for you, it's not even true that rose was more clutch than LeBron. Lets just assume it is though, even though LeBron shot more than 3% better than rose did in clutch situations. Lets pretend rose was more clutch than LeBron. :rolleyes:

Kobe had the exact same FG% as Rose in the clutch, but he also scored 2 more points per 48 in the clutch. If being clutch is your only criteria, why the fcuk should rose be ahead of Kobe in the MVP race?
So to answer your question about other reasons Rose should have won MVP... Rose because of

A.His timely play against elite teams discrepancy versus DH and Lebron was considerable.

B. His domination of the elite at his position despite the position being abundant with quality players.

C. Leadership which has proven to tax all the elite players (only Durant and Rose can be excluded) in new situations these last three years (Lebron, Wade, Kobe, DH, Nash, Mello, Dirk, Paul, DWill). Not only other greats talking about it but other active coaches as well talking about Rose's leadership that year.

D. The responsibility Rose had offensively was just way more than any other candidate. And he was practically just as productive as the best.

E. As Sdac pointed out - Scored a solid 25% of his teams total regular season points and dished 34% of his teams total assists. More value, more pressure, more responsibility, more expected offensively from him than any of the other candidates. Amazingly he had more wins.

F. His effort and hard play every game just could not be said of other contenders. Lebron, not so much but he definitely went into fogs for a good number of games (was he the leader, was he the villian, didn't know when to step up, he lost his identity several times there). DH had suspensions and just not productive games after March 1st when he was really needed.

G. His team having more obstacles than the contenders. Or simply put, no excuses, we win attitude.

H. Team had one of the best perimeter defenses.

This is off the top of my head. But I will add to it and post it every time this nonsense comes up.